Council Planning

14:33Hello everyone, thank you very much for joining our planning meeting. It is 345 on Wednesday,

14:38October 15th, 2025 and so I'll call the meeting to order although we are looking to move into a

14:44closed session right off the bat. I do want to just say that I do have regrets from Richardson

14:54and Hauser but just temporarily they're sort of on their way okay so I know that much.

15:01With that though we are looking as I said to move into a closed session

15:05and before I call the vote on that is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest any general

15:10nature there of for the items in front of us or actually the item in front of us foreclosed?

15:16Seeing and hearing none. Thank you it's described on the agenda as Employment Land Acquisition Update

15:25section 239 to see of the Municipal Act regarding a proposed or pending acquisition or

15:31disposition of land by the municipality or local board. Councillor Busuttil you're good to move

15:36that for me. Councillor Chew you're good to second that for me. Thank you. Is there anything further

15:41on that? Hearing and seeing none I'll call the vote or anyone against moving into closed on that item.

15:47That's unanimous we're good to go. I did do the disclosure. Yep yep we'll see you all in camera.

15:56Thank you. Okay everyone I'd like to call the planning meeting to order for the open session

30:55and it is Wednesday October 15th 2025 and it is as I said just after four o'clock so we're kicking

31:02things off here. Just before we get into the rest of the open agenda I did want to give the

31:08high-level summary from our closed session that we just had so we went into closed session under

31:13one item and that item was titled on the open agenda as Employment Land Acquisition Update.

31:21That was the only item that we had a discussion on in there and we did give direction to staff on

31:28that matter. That was the only item as I said and so now we're here to start our open session and with

31:33that please rise if you're able as we recognize our national anthem. Thanks everyone just a moment

33:07of silent reflection as we continue. Great thank you and our Indigenous territorial acknowledgement

33:24as we gather let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work here in Guelph,

33:28a city built over rich Indigenous histories. As guests here we should reflect upon the

33:33responsibility to care for this land and the people who live here today and the generations to come.

33:38If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation we should take pause,

33:43make those decisions with intention and gratitude. This place we call Guelph has

33:47served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for many peoples over time but more specifically

33:52the Anoanarok and the Honanashoni. This land is held as the treaty lands and territory with the

33:57Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation and Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldum and

34:02Track and is part of a long-established traditional hunting grounds for the six nations of the Grand

34:06River. Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis people who have come from across Turtle Island

34:11call Guelph home today and with that is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest any general

34:18nature thereof for any of the items in front of us tonight? Don't hear or see anything so consider

34:25that matter closed and the only regrets but it might be a short regrets is Councillor Richardson

34:33is on her way so we'll maybe see her join us soon. Right off the top everyone we do have the consent

34:41agenda with I think it's three items if I recall what I saw before. Yep so it's the extension

34:48request for the draft plan for subdivision at 1159 Victoria Road south and the extension request

34:59at 635 Woodlawn Road east again for the draft plan on that one and then we also have this one as well

35:06for the municipal support for the moose power which is required just for that project to move forward

35:13that's on consent is anyone need any of those three polls? Nope who wants to help me move those

35:19three then? Daller and Gibson and with that I will call the vote on consent is anyone against?

35:29Nobody that's unanimous thank you very much and now we will go to hearing some applications and

35:38other matters under section 1734-51 of the planning act we're kicking things off with the downtown

35:46heritage conservation district now this is a draft plan in fact there's a few things on here today

35:52that are draft and they're receive only so this is this opportunity we're going to have a presentation

35:59on the matter we actually have a delegation on this one as well and then we can give feedback to

36:06to staff and what they hear they can kind of take away because it's at a draft stage right now no

36:12decisions are being made so we appreciate everyone being involved in this with that I will turn it

36:19over to staff to start us off with the presentation great good afternoon Mayor Guthrie members of

36:28council senior staff and the members of the public that have joined us this afternoon to discuss the

36:33draft downtown heritage conservation district planning guidelines this meeting will serve as the

36:38public meeting under section 41.1 of the Ontario Heritage Act I'm Imogen Goldie the city's project

36:45manager for this conservation district project now heritage conservation districts have been used

36:50effectively on Ontario since 1980 and by Guelph with the Brooklyn and College Hill Heritage

36:55Conservation District since it was adopted in 2014 heritage conservation conservation districts

37:01are a proven approach to both determining and conserving areas with cohesive cultural heritage

37:07characteristics for example the structures continuous street walls and architectural features

37:13made of distinct locally quarried Guelph limestone in the city's core heritage protections offered

37:19the intangible emotional benefits that come from maintaining community identity in a strong sense

37:23of place often referred to by visitors to our open houses as wealthiness they offer environmental

37:30benefits through the reduction of construction waste and its associated impacts heritage protections

37:35also offer economic benefits through opportunities for heritage tourism specialized in skilled trades

37:41and as shown most recently in a 2023 report prepared for the city of Hamilton's planning and

37:46economic development department there is a growing consensus on the positive impacts of

37:51individual and district heritage designations on property values now in service of the potential

37:57district coming into force and in response to increased messages from the public around

38:01ensuring their heritage homes heritage planning staff have taken several steps to support heritage

38:06and potential heritage property owners including ongoing conversations with the insurance bureau of

38:12Canada and insurance brokers and providers in the region to help dispel myths and misuse me

38:17misunderstandings heritage planning staff have compiled a list of heritage friendly insurers

38:22as a resource available on the city's heritage planning website new language has also been

38:27developed by staff for our heritage designation bylaws to outline insurance provider obligations

38:32in the case of partial or total loss of a heritage asset that same language is being offered to

38:37property owners in letters of support to provide existing or new insurance providers

38:43initiation of a heritage conservation district study for the downtown was identified as a priority

38:48in the cultural heritage action plan due to the desire of the local community to maintain the

38:53heritage character of the area and not to discourage slower stop growth or change but to manage that

38:58change in a heritage sensitive manner after retaining archaeological services Inc or ASI

39:04earlier in the year the study phase of the project was initiated in June 2023 in September 2024

39:11the study and proposed boundary for the downtown heritage conservation district was approved and

39:16staff were directed to move on to phase two the preparation of the planning guidelines to help

39:21manage the expected change in the core I'm pleased to be joined today by two members of the consulting

39:27team I have with me Rebecca Shara principal in charge and consultant project manager with ASI

39:33and I have Matt Reed principal planning and policy and the managing director with FOTEN planning

39:39and design I'm going to turn the presentation over to Rebecca to get things started and I

39:43thank you for having us this evening good afternoon thank you for having us here this afternoon we

40:07have prepared a 10 minute presentation between myself for Becca Shara and Matt Reed from FOTEN

40:13I want to first start with a quick refresh of what the downtown Guelph heritage conservation

40:19district plan is a formal heritage district in the downtown is being recommended under the Ontario

40:26Heritage Act the goal of this district is to create a sense a heritage sensitive plan to

40:32guide the future development that is expected in the downtown simply put the district plan

40:37recognizes and is embracing the growth that will come to the downtown and its key objective is to

40:45ensure that in 10 to 20 years time the downtown is thriving and denser but also fully recognizable

40:52and defined by its historic ambience and character almost a year ago city council directed staff to

41:02begin preparing a planning document for the downtown heritage district the plan focuses on

41:08the area shown here it covers the original historic downtown and the network of streets

41:14that were first laid out here in 1827 this area has a collection of historic buildings

41:21that tell the story of the downtown's beginnings and its ongoing and current importance as the

41:26commercial core of the city those buildings are shown in green here and called contributing properties

41:33in the plan document most of these properties and their buildings date to between to between 1827

41:40to 1935 the area also contains a collection of parks and public realm features like Market Square

41:49the trails along the water and the streets themselves arranged to radiate out from the bend

41:55in the Speed River over the last two years this project has had a robust engagement program

42:04in 2023 and 2024 when we were in the study phase a series of open houses meetings and

42:11workshops were held with Heritage Guelph the public and where property owners within the proposed

42:18boundary were invited interested indigenous communities a project specific focus group

42:24and the downtown guelph business association over the past year while working on the plan

42:32phase of the project we have continued to work with and engage these various groups we have

42:38held two public open houses had workshops with the project specific focus group met with the

42:43downtown guelph business association and at these sessions we have shared in progress work and content

42:50and information we have received input and feedback and we have used these outputs to shape the content

42:57that is presented in the draft downtown guelph district plan that is before you today whenever

43:06we work on conservation district plans in various places across Ontario the how or the implementation

43:13of it is always most important to everyone from property owners to council to residents as well

43:20as other stakeholders and that is why i want to first touch on how heritage permits would work in

43:26the proposed district heritage permits are the key way that the city the key tool that the city uses

43:33to implement the plan i want to clarify a few key aspects about heritage permits and how they work

43:40this is important because people often think that a district starts requiring detailed review

43:47of every little change to a building that it will require buildings if lost to fire for example to

43:54be rebuilt exactly as they look today or that a district plan will stifle creativity this is not

44:02the case with the proposed downtown heritage plan for example permits are not required for

44:10changes to the interior of properties also changes such as repairs or replacements to the exterior

44:17of a contributing property are exempt from a permit if those changes maintain the existing

44:24appearance of the property by using similar materials and colors repairs like installing

44:30or replacing eaves troughs or downpipes are also exempt from permits a minor permit may be required

44:38for some small-scale activities like replacements and additions of exterior building elements

44:43with different materials on contributing buildings such as introduction of new windows that use

44:49different materials or colors than existing these types of changes go through a process of permitting

44:55at the staff level and are on average processed in 10 to 15 days a major permit would be required

45:03for something pretty substantial like picking up a building and moving it or altering an exterior

45:11building element for example introducing a bunch of new window openings on the front elevation

45:18of an important heritage building a major permit would also be required where demolitions are proposed

45:24or a brand new building is proposed the idea here is that full removal of a heritage building

45:32and new building projects are reviewed to ensure they positively and compatibly contribute to the

45:39historic character of the downtown district these kinds of changes can be dramatic and therefore

45:45have potential to affect the heritage quality of the districts and therefore require a conversation

45:55over the last year we have had a series of engagement events and received lots of very

45:59good feedback and from those discussions we have heard that everyone wants clarity on any new

46:05requirements that property owners should expect from the district plan to that end the district plan

46:11documents and clarifies several really important things that are key for property owners the plan

46:19confirms that heritage permits required within the district for example have no cost associated

46:25with them it also clarifies timelines providing certainty the plan also clarifies and confirms

46:33important information to insurance providers the plan assures property owners and their insurers

46:40that replacement and reconstruction of buildings and their heritage features is not required in the

46:46event of total or partial loss this clarification has been received with very positive feedback

46:52from select insurers that staff have been consulting with on this very topic i now want to give a

47:10sampling of some of the policies and guidelines that are presented in the downtown heritage

47:14district plan first though i want to run through some highlights for everyone here today and also

47:21listening before i turn it over to my colleague matt to walk through some examples of the kinds of

47:26new buildings and developments and additions in the downtown that would be welcomed and encouraged

47:33in the downtown district so to start off in the plan you see policies and guidelines these are

47:40different policies are mandatory while guidelines are discretionary and the words associated with

47:46each matter policies use words like shall while guidelines use words like encourage

47:53policies set requirements while guidelines present best practices but are not mandatory

47:59this is an important distinction as an example the plan does not require through policy that

48:05property owners repair exterior elements instead it gives key policies to guide introduction of good

48:13compatible additions and alterations the guidelines do discourage removals and replacements of

48:19exterior heritage building elements but also recognizes that repairs might not always be possible

48:27the plan also emphasizes that alterations additions and new development are permitted

48:34and they are they should be sympathetic to and support the heritage values of the district

48:39additionally policies and guidelines have no impact on building use it does not govern how a

48:44building can be used and policies and guidelines do not apply to building interiors some other

48:52highlights include that owners of contributing properties are encouraged not required to replace

48:58heritage attributes in kind understanding what is mandatory and discretionary discretionary

49:05is extremely important to understand the implications of the plan i will now turn to matt

49:11to walk us through some of the key policies and guidelines presented in the plan

49:24thank you rebecca and thank you mayor guthrie and members of council for having us here today

49:30so in rebecca's presentation she talked uh high level about the process that we've been through to

49:35dates and about the policies and the guidelines and um i'm going to zoom in a little bit further

49:45in my part of the presentation and focus on a couple specific sites that should be generally

49:50familiar to people here tonight to help understand how the guidelines and policies can actually

49:56apply on the ground so we're going to look at examples of how the policies and guidelines

50:06can work on both uh the contributing properties that rebecca mentioned as well as non-contributing

50:11properties and how new development can still occur within the downtown without undermining the

50:17heritage attribute attributes identified in the plan and the attributes that that uh make

50:24gulf special and make gulf downtown gulf uh what it is so when i talk about intensification um i

50:32think it's important to note first that intensification is any sort of new development on vacant or

50:39underutilized sites in the downtown and we'll see some examples of both of these but this could be

50:44both new development just uh you know a parking lot for example that's just being redeveloped

50:49but again because we're in a downtown context and growth is expected and anticipated it's also

50:55important to note that intensification includes underutilized sites so it might be a two-story

51:01building for example where the existing or emerging policies permit greater heights and densities so

51:07this would be an example and we'll see this uh shortly so we're presenting two sites today and

51:14you'll see some examples like this throughout the hcd document as well and again just showing how

51:20some of these guidelines and policies apply and i think it's important to note tonight as well that

51:24these are just for demonstration purposes only they're not representative of any proposed development

51:30or anything like that just to show how the guidelines and the policies apply so the first example that

51:35we'll look at is is at uh windham and mcdonnell street and this is a good example of a redevelopment

51:43of what could be seen as an underutilized site but the key thing to note here is we've got the

51:49green buildings which as rebecca showed are your contributing properties and then the yellow

51:54buildings which would represent new development so in this case we've got an addition to an existing

52:00contributing property and i think it's also important to note we've got contributing properties

52:05directly adjacent to this development as well so we want to think about both of those as redevelopment

52:11is occurring so when we talk about sort of at the policy level and that shell language some of the

52:17stuff that would come up in the guidelines and the policies um in an example like this would be

52:23policies to sort of protect the integrity of that existing building for example so policies

52:30like um substantial portions of existing contributing properties shall be maintained for

52:38example um where additional height is identified as permissible step backs should be provided above

52:47the established building to again sort of protect the features of that building the features that

52:56make that building special so again we're not talking about just retaining the facades we're

53:00talking about retaining roof structures and other elements of the buildings as well that really

53:05helped to make it stand out and then similarly in examples like this again because we have

53:16new development going on top of existing development but adjacent to other contributing

53:21properties we want to just start looking at general best practices as well so you'll see

53:25things that we've done here to transition to those adjacent properties as well so for example as you

53:32go up towards the top of the building we've got additional step backs in the massing and this

53:37does a couple of things so for those adjacent contributing properties it creates a bit of a

53:42transition both in height but also helps to mitigate things like shadow impacts or anything that could

53:47undermine that heritage or character of the contributing property as a pedestrian from the

53:53street level it serves another purpose in that it helps to reduce the overall massing of the

53:58building as well and it creates it sort of creates a definition between the base of the building so

54:04the green existing component the new middle piece and the top as well so again as a pedestrian on

54:10the street this creates a more interesting and and attractive skyline yeah i don't want to push

54:28multiple times and have it skip ahead but send me just wasn't aiming right thank you

54:38the second example that we'll look at is an example where you can see on the context here so now we're

54:43at uh yarmouth street just between yarmouth and baker and you'll see an example here next to the

54:49children's art factory and this example is one where we have a site that would be again like an

54:54underutilized site so a single story building where you've got lots of height along yarmouth street

54:58as well you've got the baker district behind so lots of height in the area and then you've got

55:03this one story building that is not a contributing property and again i think important to note on

55:07the map you'll see here that it's it's fully surrounded however by existing contributing

55:12properties the green buildings so in this case what we would be looking at because we're not trying

55:21to preserve any sort of existing building this would represent like a full redevelopment of the

55:25site this is a good example where you start to see some differentiation i think between the policies

55:31and the guidelines so in this case you'd be looking at policies having language such as you

55:36know the building shall be located at the street and it shall be oriented to address the streetscape

55:41so some of those kind of big picture pieces to make sure your building's in the right place

55:46in this case however the guidelines will kind of come in to play to provide a little bit of

55:52additional flexibility so whereas the policies would say buildings shall be located along the

55:57street the guidelines would say that you should generally maintain the established setback so this

56:02would be the location of the two green buildings that are directly adjacent to our new development

56:08but why we have the guidelines and that sort of flexibility in that should language is that

56:12this presents an opportunity to you'll see in this diagram we've actually pushed the yellow

56:19building back a little bit further because this one creates a bit of a wider streetscape for

56:24pedestrians but i think more importantly it actually sets the building back behind the

56:28existing children's art factory building which allows that building the green contributing

56:33property in the historic building to kind of continue to stand on its own amongst new development

56:38and and so new development doesn't kind of block views or sort of overshadow this building

56:44and you can see similar with the smaller building kind of above it in the diagram as well and in

56:49this case you might even want to start kind of chopping back parts of that building to actually

56:54allow more views to that building and a little more breathing room for that building as well

56:59and then again like the previous example you'll see that the guidelines in this case

57:04start to provide guidance for this building and how it should sort of perform along the streets so

57:09again we see that three-story podium height uh along yarmouth street and then the step back again

57:15so that three-story podium maintains a consistent street wall with the established contributing

57:20properties or the green buildings and then that step back above as a pedestrian creates kind of a

57:26feeling of a three-story building helps to reduce the mass of the building and then again like the

57:31previous example you see we're defining a clear base three-story base and podium of the building

57:37a distinguished middle section of the building and then again as you get to the top it's about

57:41providing additional step backs again and this is both on the Baker street side and the Yarmouth

57:47street side providing those additional step backs to again create kind of a clear base middle and

57:53top create a more attractive skyline for new developments and just help to kind of sculpt

58:00that building in a way that helps it to fit well within the established contributing properties

58:07back to you for that thank you Matt and that brings us to the end of our presentation

58:21in terms of next steps will be to integrate any feedback received at this session

58:27and any other engagement sessions that have been held over the last month

58:31as appropriate into the final HCD plan document the final HCD plan is expected to come before

58:38council in January 2026 where council will make a decision at that time about whether to proceed

58:44with designation and preparation of the implementing bylaw thank you for your time mayor Guthrie and

58:50council well thank you for the presentation and walking us through that really appreciate it

58:57but we do have one delegation who's joined us tonight so I think I'd like to to go to to that

59:03right away and so if I could have uh Christopher Pesan come on up to the microphone and thank you

59:15Chris um and uh you know my apologies is this a 10 minute one as well I think it is right yeah

59:21so you have up to 10 minutes Chris um you'll hear a chime at the nine minute 30 second mark as a

59:27warning that you only have 30 seconds left if you need it and then once you're done if you want us to

59:32stick around just in case myself or my colleagues have any questions as a follow-up that'd be great

59:37other than that thank you for coming the floor is yours well thank you uh mayor Guthrie it's nice to

59:44see you and uh counselors and uh city staff and the advisors and the rest of the people in the room

59:51I just uh would like to say it's a privilege to be here this is one of the things I appreciate about

59:56our city and our democracy that we get to have these conversations so uh I would like to start with

1:00:02I am here neither as friend nor foe I'm here as somebody that just wants to talk a little bit about

1:00:11the best of intentions that have unintended consequences and um I have a few points that I

1:00:18want to address and I I merely bring this up for council to uh to think about these things when

1:00:25you're making the decision on whether or not to move forward with this proposal so first off

1:00:32the original boundaries of this proposed district were enlarged based on one person's opinion

1:00:41and and when I say that I mean there was one person who lived outside of that original

1:00:46boundary who contacted somebody with either the city or at one of these meetings and suggested that

1:00:54the boundaries be extended and I know that they had a bias because they are members of the historical

1:01:02um group for Guelph and um I just feel like if one person gets to approach somebody either on city

1:01:11staff or some of the advisors that perhaps the rest of the homeowners in or the property owners

1:01:18and the rest of this new proposed enlarged area could have also had a say and and maybe a vote on

1:01:25something like that um so essentially there was some inherent bias in that person's suggestion

1:01:33and they don't live in the area they don't own property in the area and they're not

1:01:37impacted by this in any way whereas there are several homeowners or property owners who are

1:01:44second point I talked about unintended consequences I I find that there there's often even more

1:01:51unintended consequences when there's a rush to push something through because the door is closing

1:01:58and I know that the Ontario government is proposing that some changes get made anyway what seems to

1:02:05be a great idea ends up causing more problems than the intended benefits and whether the changes

1:02:10the province is proposing um have anything to do with this or not I'm just here to outline a few

1:02:17potential unintended consequences firstly as somebody who arranged over 3000 mortgages on

1:02:24properties in this city I can tell you without a doubt that there will be impacts on people

1:02:31who want to get mortgages on the properties who will be part of this heritage district or this

1:02:38proposed heritage district every time that I had to arrange a mortgage on a house that was either in a

1:02:45on a heritage registry or a part of a heritage district or it had a designation it always

1:02:52became a problem for the homeowner or the potential buyer and as much as my esteemed

1:02:59colleagues here my advisors for the city are going to tell you that it doesn't I am here to tell you

1:03:06firsthand that I've seen this problem for homeowners it shrinks the potential supply

1:03:12of where they can get their mortgage from and that only means one thing to them it increases their

1:03:18interest rates which means it increases their costs secondly the Heritage Act may require

1:03:26additional permits for owners in this prop in this heritage district and perhaps right now there's

1:03:33not going to be any fees but generally any but anytime you need to get a permit from the city

1:03:39there are some kind of fees associated with that so whether there's zero fee right now

1:03:45I believe that in the future there probably will be and that's an additional cost to the landowner

1:03:51there are other compliance costs so if if for some reason you do need to hire a consultant

1:03:58I don't know very many of them that won't pick up a pen for less than a thousand dollars

1:04:03so if you need to at least consider that type of an impact on the property owners

1:04:09in this proposed heritage district there are limited renovation flexibility and and I love the I

1:04:19love that the consultants talk about there's there's the outshelt knot and then there are guidelines

1:04:27where you know it's it's what were the words that were used it's not mandatory versus discretionary

1:04:36well that's great if these people can live forever so right now I'm going to say Imogen

1:04:42and her colleague I want to say James Jim Jack sorry really nice people seem really down to earth

1:04:50you can have a good conversation with them but they're not going to be here forever they'll move on

1:04:56they'll get a new job like this is this is a reality of things and so if somebody can't guarantee

1:05:03what's you know discretionary today is not going to be mandatory tomorrow well that's

1:05:08fabulous I just think that you need more clarity about what you can and can't do guidelines are a

1:05:15little vague and if Imogen and Jack move on then I don't know what's going to happen and I don't

1:05:23have great comfort in that somebody talked about oh well energy efficiency issues if you can't renovate

1:05:32an old home the way you want to and sometimes it requires exterior doing something to the exterior

1:05:38there are issues with getting better efficiency from an energy efficiency standpoint

1:05:46any consideration given to property owners if the city is going to provide financial incentives for

1:05:53property owners in this proposed district will essentially mean higher taxes for our taxpayers

1:06:01and all of the council members here including the ones chatting over in the corner here

1:06:07you're going to have to vote on something that increases the taxes to taxpayers right and so

1:06:15I don't know that taxpayers across the city are going to want to fund a downtown heritage district

1:06:23think about that you're going to have to pay for it somehow and you shouldn't burden just the people

1:06:29in the district with having to cover all the increased costs that come with owning a property

1:06:35somebody mentioned today that market value of heritage homes they tend to sell on average more

1:06:44than what an average home would sell for so I've done the research the difference is marginal

1:06:501% it's it's either 0 or 1% so that's that's nothing so there really is no difference between

1:07:00what you can sell your house for if it's got a designation or not but I will say I could tell you

1:07:06because people have told me and I'm experiencing some difficulties when it comes to insurance I already

1:07:13and I have paperwork here that I can share with council my insurance was canceled on two of my

1:07:20properties downtown because they're on a registry what do you think's going to happen when they're

1:07:25part of a downtown heritage district that these folks are proposing they'll all get canceled

1:07:32and then I'll have to start over and the minute you have fewer suppliers the costs go up so I'm asking

1:07:39you can to consider these things I'm not saying that the downtown heritage district in and of itself

1:07:45is a bad thing it's just there's there are several unintended consequences so I talked about the insurance

1:07:54maintenance complexity goes up if you're looking for a mason to do work on a century home that's

1:08:02designated it will be more than if it's a century home normally you get to add a zero to things and

1:08:11I don't know about you but I feel like that's an an undue burden on the property owners downtown

1:08:19to have to deal with that so you talked about I mean there is a benefit there are specialized trades

1:08:25and standards that you know people can have better livelihood but people have to pay for that and

1:08:32that's going to come out of the property owners pockets so I don't want to ramble

1:08:40I did notice some other requirements with the proposal on page 192 of this massive 645 page

1:08:49document that all the counselors got to go through prior to this meeting and I hats off to you if you

1:08:54managed to read all of that folks um page 192 it talks about requirements related to transformers

1:09:03and utility boxes to keep the streetscape looking great well I don't know who's going to pay to move

1:09:08some of these boxes but I I'm pretty sure that the the utilities will be furious if they have to move

1:09:17some of these things and um I have a minute so I would argue that my properties and I'm going to

1:09:29submit this to my properties don't do anything for the streetscape I mean 150 years ago when

1:09:37Lorne would face the point I came back in Yarmouth maybe but the whole front yard has been taken up

1:09:43by other homes so yeah thank thank you Chris thank you for your presentation is there any follow-up at

1:09:51this time Chris just one second there might be a follow-up okay uh councillor Gibson has a question

1:09:57and I'm sorry Karan sorry sorry yeah yeah thank you through mr. mayor and thank you um Chris for

1:10:04coming today you're articulating many of the concerns I've heard as well and have expressed

1:10:08here before I wanted to dive in on the energy efficiency piece because obviously we can't

1:10:14do we can't have all the balls in the air trying to move everything forward while pulling them down

1:10:18as well we have a home energy tax credit in this city where we're offering a low-cost loans to improve

1:10:25the energy efficiency primarily on homes like this but then you run into a situation where a home has

1:10:31old stucco or old parging or old windows and your experience tells me that you're familiar a little

1:10:39but with this where you're having to go through a heritage planner or a heritage um committee for a

1:10:46permit or an approval to do sort of major upgrades to the energy efficiency of exterior walls things

1:10:52like that not interior but exterior and I heard you touch on that with in terms of energy efficiency

1:10:57and I think that dovetails well with what staff was telling us can you just expand on your experience

1:11:02or what you've heard in the community I guess with as mortgage renewal you're often getting

1:11:07new new mortgages from people to do upgrades like this to their homes

1:11:12thank you Dan um so to be uh for transparency I have not done it alone in 10 years I retired from

1:11:21the mortgage business 10 years ago um however um we range appraisal reports of new business I started

1:11:29across the country and historical properties are always a challenge as well when it comes to um

1:11:39valuation and we always hear from the mortgage people that there are issues when it comes to

1:11:45the um the energy efficiency counselor Gibson uh all I could tell you is what my research is

1:11:52shown me and um in my hours of research this popped up multiple times where people would

1:12:02suggest that or or different there are different um uh sources that would suggest that energy

1:12:10efficiency um sometimes goes in conflict with what's required under keeping a house exactly the way

1:12:17it is today that that's kind of the bottom line yeah I appreciate that I appreciate those comments

1:12:23thank you you're welcome thank you if I could go to um I think I had counselor Karan next and then

1:12:33caller sure thank you and thanks for your delegation mr Bisson um I know that you're

1:12:39speaking in general about heritage properties but the research that I've done has been very

1:12:46clear that certain conditions warrant certain mortgage or insurance and that those conditions

1:12:54aren't specifically related to heritage but more to old wiring or outdated heating systems

1:13:01or inefficient windows not specifically because a property is a certain age so I wonder if you

1:13:08could speak to what is it that you believe is disqualifying or is causing um you know to quote

1:13:15concerns or challenges because um we have not been hearing that from the Heritage Conservation

1:13:21District that we currently have Brooklyn and the College Hill and we don't hear that from

1:13:25Heritage Conservation Districts and other municipalities um and you know we we're part of

1:13:31national associations of heritage professionals and we go to the National Trust Heritage Conference

1:13:36and we're not we're not hearing that from property owners so where are you hearing that from well

1:13:43look to first if I were to commission a survey today to dispute you I'll bet money that I could

1:13:53get somebody to come up with a finalized report that agrees with what I'm trying to drive towards

1:14:01so what I'm what I'm saying is oftentimes you will get reports commissioned by an organization that

1:14:11has a bias towards like wanting to have a certain outcome and the people who who do the surveys or

1:14:21who um do the reporting will they're often biased unintentionally many times so and again look I

1:14:29want to be very clear I'm neither completely against or nor completely for this district

1:14:36that's being proposed I just want the council city to consider all of these other things that I know

1:14:46to be true and so you made a very good point there are lenders who will not lend on uh properties

1:14:53with aluminum wiring yeah mcap mcap mortgage corporation I know they don't um there are

1:15:00companies that refuse to give a mortgage on a house if it's part of a registry for historical

1:15:08properties or it's part of a historical district or it has a designation it's just the fact and so

1:15:15the point isn't so much that the people cannot get a mortgage or insurance the point is that the

1:15:25offerings the number of potential places where you can do business are smaller and the smaller

1:15:34that number the greater the cost okay it is the way it is and and by the way I think it's great

1:15:40that you're finding uh insurance companies who are um friendly I think was the wording used friendly

1:15:50towards uh historically designated properties or historical districts but that certainly isn't

1:15:56every insurance company is it so you right the question it's it's it's definitely the mayor

1:16:04yeah sorry you're asking questions of staff during a delegation just making sure we're

1:16:08following protocol I appreciate your answer I what I would also appreciate so that we can make a fully

1:16:13informed uh decision is if you can point me to any of your research or studies that demonstrate

1:16:21that point I would I would honestly be very curious to see them if you could sign up to me via email

1:16:27and copy the rest of council um I would really appreciate that everything that I've read including

1:16:33insurance um brokers and this and and associations who represent mortgage lenders and insurance companies

1:16:40um do have opposite language so if you could send those those some of your research to me to

1:16:45demonstrate that point that would be appreciated thank you very much I'd be happy to great and

1:16:52last I have is councillor goller thank you for your presentation mr. bison I really appreciate you

1:16:58sharing your personal experience about challenges with finding uh mortgages and insurance could you

1:17:05give me a deal of what the substantial difference is when a company counsels insurance how much more

1:17:11are are you seeing that you personally have to to pay because when I've spoken to my constituents

1:17:18mind you they are heritage advocates that are talking to me about this they told me that there's

1:17:21not a material difference you know if they cannot get an insurance here they'll get an

1:17:25insurance from a different company but it's not substantially more expensive do you have a different

1:17:30experience the so for me personally there's two two things I want to point out when you're and I

1:17:37have the letter here from my insurance company telling me oh hey sorry uh we have to cancel the

1:17:41insurance on two of your properties we're not going to renew because of this um so the stress

1:17:48of dealing with this this is another job that now I get to do to organize call an insurance broker

1:17:55to organize this for me I don't need that extra work counselor what a pain you know do you have

1:18:02all sorts of extra time in your day and I'm being facetious of course you don't it's pain you don't

1:18:08want to have to deal with this but the stats will tell you that for maintenance costs depending on

1:18:14what it is the cost will be will go out by 10 percent to over a hundred percent more depending

1:18:20on what it is all right and there's a whole list of things and and I'm happy to send the sources

1:18:26to council so you can see this my insurance changed like 10 so it went on the main house

1:18:34from somewhere around 14 000 to almost 16 000 so you know okay it's only 10 but it's

1:18:441500 more that I got to make after tax to cover this and when you start factoring this over

1:18:5120 years it starts to add up and and yet I get nothing in nothing extra when I go to sell my house

1:19:01right okay virtually nothing one percent maybe if I'm lucky and that's just the insurance

1:19:07so this is an example and I'd be happy to send the sources and links and data and I can also

1:19:13send a list of the mortgage companies that will not lend on a home that's got a designation or is

1:19:21on a registry or is part of a district okay I appreciate that so and again all I all I want

1:19:27to finish with for you counselors I just want city to take this into account when they're making

1:19:34the decision because personally I think if you're going to do this you need to think about what the

1:19:42incentives are for homeowners and if you don't have that in place at the time that you make this

1:19:49decision you're opening up a large number to the taxpayers of the city thank you thank you worship

1:19:56great thank you counselor thank you chris free thank you very much for joining us we appreciate it

1:20:01you're welcome thank you okay council it's uh it's uh sorry just a second is there anybody else in the

1:20:11room that wants to talk about this issue no okay and I'm going to have a phone number come up on the

1:20:17screen and it's uh I'll just see a lot out as well it's I know it's 519837 something I can't remember

1:20:24the last four digits am I right yeah 519837 5603 again that's 519837 5603 and we'll just wait

1:20:40back to us okay thank you okay I'll call us back to order then please if I had no one call in and

1:23:07and no one in the audience right now so that leaves it back to us our counselor uh busatil

1:23:13and counselor uh howzer both agreed to move and second uh the receipt of uh what's in front of us

1:23:21here as I stated at the very beginning there is no decisions being made this the whole reason for

1:23:27today is to hear people out to get an update from staff and the consultants around where we're at

1:23:34in the process and to have like it's a check-in it's a pulse check let's call it that uh to determine

1:23:40how things are going and so let's see if we can uh any comments from us or any questions from us

1:23:48back to staff other than sort of what's already been presented over and above uh that they might

1:23:53want to take away to consider consider before it comes back Gibson and then Koran

1:23:59hi thank you uh through you mr mayor uh well I appreciate that the delegates comments I share

1:24:05many of them so I would like to see some of those addressed moving forward I'll struggle to support

1:24:11this if if they're not properly addressed I think he's the third delegate now that's told us he's

1:24:15lost insurance because of heritage designation um but I think the question I have for the staff

1:24:22with in the presentation was it sounded like the more and more staff got talking about the

1:24:28heritage district the more and more it sounded like we were revisiting the downtown secondary plan

1:24:32so can I ask how the two uh support each other how they intertwine and how like I saw 16 stories

1:24:41their maximum um I wanted to make sure that we're not creating another layer of governance in the

1:24:47downtown that isn't already supposed to be covered through the downtown secondary plan

1:24:52especially when it comes to building heights I wouldn't want to be using a heritage district

1:24:57to sort of reimpose a maximum building height uh in the I may be way off but I just want to make

1:25:04sure we're not um we're not creating that sort of um backdoor to uh sort of amend or supersede

1:25:13the downtown secondary plan can staff speak to that please yeah through the mayor to council

1:25:19Gibson so um we purposely did show how it tied into this downtown secondary plan and the um new

1:25:26heights that were proposed through opa 106 um to show that it can work with the new heights that are

1:25:32proposed um so there's nothing more there's nothing less than than what was proposed but we actually

1:25:38tried to show buildings that were in conformity with opa 106 for this demonstration okay thank you

1:25:44so the building height of 16 I think I saw one that said building maximum height of 16 did I see

1:25:49that on your one of your slides that's not the that's not the building height maximum for the

1:25:53entire downtown right that's just a one example that was a situation that you were demonstrating

1:25:58yeah through the counselor to sorry through the mayor to the counselor so um in the downtown

1:26:04heights official plan amendment there were varying heights throughout the downtown so some was still

1:26:0812 some are 14 some are 16 and that was the example we're showing on the area that was 16

1:26:13and then we have kind of the 24 south of the tracks or the old Quebec street mall

1:26:17or the partial of the wood site so it depends on the location on the the varying heights through

1:26:23downtown okay thank I thought that was that was I just wanted to make sure I got that off my chest

1:26:28I'm glad I interpreted it right I appreciate the answer thank you thank you uh Karon then alt please

1:26:34yes thank you um I know that I don't want the discussion uh moving forward to be about

1:26:43um insurance and mortgages I want it to be about the value and the benefits and so I recall that we

1:26:50did a survey um which had a fairly high response rate like 20 percent of all the homeowners and

1:26:57rental property owners and business owners within the heritage conservation district that we do have

1:27:03Brooklyn and the college hill and the purpose of that survey was to to get that kind of feedback

1:27:08about how it's impacted them and I recall that the survey results were extremely favorable

1:27:15can staff um find that survey results and then and circulate it to council

1:27:23yep I'd be happy to happy to find the documents yeah I I actually just googled it and it popped

1:27:30up it was October 2021 so thanks that would be really helpful to to have that information as we

1:27:37move forward great thank you alt and downer please thank you mayor guthrie um this is a very serious

1:27:47question um last week we discussed the allen's bridge if we designate the downtown as a heritage

1:27:56district and looking at the map the allen's bridge is within the heritage district does that

1:28:03affect the status of the allen's bridge which we debated last week and which on um on a tie

1:28:12either wasn't designated or was designated I'm not entirely clear because of the two motions

1:28:18coming to us from heritage uh through through the mayor to the counselor uh so no it does not so

1:28:28any any property whether designated or not designated can still go through a process and

1:28:31that's where we're at with the with the allen's bridge thank you thank you councillor Allt downer please

1:28:46just going back to you miss mayor to the survey idea of their current heritage districts was there

1:28:52a more recent survey than in the heritage district because I remember I live in the heritage district

1:28:59I'm not experiencing any of the problems described nor my neighbors have talked to me about it was

1:29:04there um any any um any more recent survey I thought there was a survey that went out because

1:29:12I remember doing one last recent the last year uh through the mayor to the counselor so it's not a

1:29:19formal survey done across the entire district but when we were investigating this and looking at

1:29:25the insurance issues we did contact some of the folks who've been through heritage processes

1:29:29within the district and we're familiar with the district so we could get some background information

1:29:33and also find out who their mortgage providers were sorry their insurance providers so that we

1:29:38could put that list together for our website okay okay so so I just I that's sort of my comment I

1:29:46guess like I I'm hearing that there's I'm not sure like but I can I can say firsthand that I I've

1:29:52not experienced um any issues with my house I know that I have very old wooden windows if I

1:29:59wanted to replace them I could replace them with aluminum too they don't have to be exactly the

1:30:03same you know there's a lot of things that I can do so and it's a lot of things people have done in

1:30:08this in my neighborhood they've replaced their porch um and some of sometimes it's not quite the

1:30:14same as it was but it it sort of does match the character of the neighborhood so I haven't heard

1:30:20these these problems my husbands are real estate agents who by since has bought and sold in this

1:30:27neighborhood and and he's not hearing any problems of mortgage issues either but I you know perhaps

1:30:33they're out there so like certainly let's let's investigate that um I like um what I'm seeing I

1:30:39I think some people might object to the amount of development that can occur in this heritage

1:30:45district um I'm not concerned when I look at um where Whirl electric is now I always think of it as

1:30:52the the was it the region um and it you know that you can go in and you can still put eight stories

1:31:01there I'm not concerned that we can still do some pretty uh a lot of of development in the

1:31:07downtown even though it's a heritage district and not every property is identified as a as a

1:31:12significant property so I think I think that's that's important um and uh yeah just saying I

1:31:20I like what I see um in this heritage district and if we're not supporting heritage districts we

1:31:26should never have gone down this path we should never have put that extra half a million in the

1:31:31budget a couple of years ago to do two more heritage districts and I and designate more houses and I

1:31:37don't feel that this process has been rushed at all I think it's been a good process with

1:31:42a lot of public input as well they came we thank the consultants who came to the downtown

1:31:49board last a couple weeks ago as well it was a good presentation a lot of questions were asked

1:31:55you know but it was the most was satisfied thank you okay thank you uh caller and then uh

1:32:04clausen and then uh kate and after that anybody else okay those three go for it thank you worship

1:32:15through staff um going back to one of the first comments made by the delegate I just wanted a

1:32:19little bit of clarity uh in terms of the the boundary and who got input uh to to inform the

1:32:25decision for the the word west heritage I remember being part of a group and a bunch of us were drawing

1:32:32different outlines on where we thought the boundary should be was there a open process like that and

1:32:39can you give me an idea of who got to have input into the decision about the boundaries for the

1:32:44downtown through the mayor to councillor goller many groups had input into the process of defining

1:32:57the boundary during the study phase of the project so those groups would have included the public at

1:33:02large through open houses there would have been conversations about what is the boundary what are

1:33:08your thoughts on it the municipal heritage advisory committee the project specific focus group

1:33:16and the recommended boundary would have gone back to all of those groups for reaction and feedback

1:33:23and further input so the recommended boundary that ultimately was also brought to council

1:33:32last year was vetted through a public and transparent process where multiple groups

1:33:38provided input and for additional clarity the extension of the boundary in in one particular

1:33:47direction wasn't the only extension that was made it it widened on all sides based on a range of

1:33:53inputs also from indigenous communities and the study document outlines all of this in in that

1:34:04and also shows that in many instances various members of the public defined a much larger

1:34:11boundary than the one that we we provided so it was vetted I think in a very credible way

1:34:17thank you very much I really appreciate that that that clarification with regards to to process at a

1:34:25higher level today we are looking at the guidelines what would happen next so we we receive this now

1:34:32when are we looking to have an actual bylaw that is enforceable through the mayor to the councillor

1:34:43it would be ready in q1 one next year yeah okay thank you very much thank you worship thank you

1:34:49class and then kate yes thank you through you mr. mayor to the staff I I just wanted to say thank

1:34:58you for the presentation in the work I've been part of a number of the community engagement

1:35:03opportunities and over the last little while and I think that the report is you know

1:35:11mr. mayor said this is a pulse check and I think that you know the pulse is strong

1:35:15I there I've been spending quite a bit of time in the statement of of of district significance

1:35:22and I've been going through the history and I've learned a lot about our city and on its own this

1:35:27is you know like I think everybody in golf should read it because it's it's a great I think it's a

1:35:33great piece of work on you know the history of our city and that goes you know to our indigenous

1:35:39history as well there's a there's a good amount of work done there and I won't I know I won't be

1:35:43ramble on about about the reports too much but thanks thank you for your work on this

1:35:49I did have a question with regard to as I was reading through the report I did refer to a CIP

1:35:58I can't remember at what point the CIP expired maybe it was 2019 and I just I wanted to talk a

1:36:05little bit more about the heritage incentives and if if staff is proposing certain incentives

1:36:11when would that come and I guess secondly to that point I've been doing my own research on

1:36:19cities who have heritage districts who have types of incentive programs so city of Burlington has

1:36:27heritage incentives city of Collingwood and there is a third one about it it's at Kingston city of

1:36:33Kingston and I was just in Kingston they've got three heritage districts and they've got these

1:36:37except all of them have incentive programs to a varying degrees when we might see something like this

1:36:45through the mayor to the councillor so heritage incentives I think there's actually a council

1:36:49resolution to bring it back with the word west um HCD so we'll be bringing forward that and

1:36:54identifying what types there are and then certainly it would be considered at a future budget

1:37:00point but this point when we bring forward word west we'd just be talking about what types of

1:37:04incentives there are out there and then we would drill down further following that

1:37:09okay um and so wait when would that be exactly from a date perspective

1:37:14sometime in the spring you'll see the first draft of that okay great thank you um and then I have a

1:37:20second question with regard to the energy efficiency piece and the work that property owners can do to

1:37:26make their properties more energy efficient so I'm just we you know casually I think

1:37:32councillor Caron was mentioning uh wood windows for example wood windows my understanding is that

1:37:38they can be replaced to become more energy efficient and there's another a number of other

1:37:44things that property owners can do I just wonder if you could speak a little bit more to that and how

1:37:49a heritage building doesn't necessarily become a barrier to becoming energy efficient through

1:37:59the mayor to the councillor so the plan is supportive of energy efficiency and um I spoke a

1:38:05bit about how policies um allow for um changing materials and upgrading windows and there is

1:38:15there is a process for that um there are no you shall keep your wood windows forever language

1:38:22in this plan it's not there anywhere um and I think it's a good piece of feedback about maybe

1:38:27making energy efficiency goals a little um more clearly stated in the in the plan

1:38:36but there's nothing in this plan that would limit that okay uh thank you

1:38:44great thank you councillor and uh I have kateen coming on next thank you through you mr. mayor to

1:38:50staff um I just wanted to thank staff um specifically for adding in the accessibility

1:38:57area I know that a lot of people are worried about doing renovations and you know adding ramps and

1:39:03whether or not that would affect uh their requirements for permits so I appreciate that

1:39:08and uh just similar to um past comments and through the delegate uh I think it'd be great

1:39:18especially in the exterior wall section to to have something in there about the interior options that

1:39:25you can do for uh climate-proofing your home I've lived in quite a few over 100 year old homes and I

1:39:32know that we replaced the interior walls and that kind of vapor barrier items and things like that can

1:39:38negate the need to change the that is all we really like the last part of what you said can you repeat

1:39:55the last uh 10 seconds that is all okay the part before that is all was also probably really good

1:40:07too you just cut out here on our end so we appreciate it thank you councillor kateen all right

1:40:14hearing nothing more I'll just wrap up with my some of my comments and questions if you don't mind

1:40:20um I know some of this might already be taken off but it's good just kind of throw it out in the

1:40:25public realm will anything with the community permitting planning system interfere with

1:40:32the potential heritage district uh through the mayor no it's actually supposed to work with the

1:40:42heritage district perfect thank you um the survey that councillor Caron asked for that was done in 2021

1:40:54I'm wondering if that can just make maybe be sent to to all and or maybe posted as a link on

1:41:00the link on the documents on the on the website for this so the public can see that as well that'd be cool

1:41:08um and my my last uh just comment because this is what it's for comments it's kind of take away

1:41:17is uh I am it is absolutely true and I was a little bit hesitant back when I was a councillor

1:41:26about approving the old old university neighborhood uh heritage district but I I supported it then

1:41:33and it is absolutely true that like a lot of the fear of some of the things that were

1:41:39could maybe happen then didn't come to fruition um and so it's been several years and there's been

1:41:45I think uh real buy-in and not a lot of negativity that's come out of it at all but I do view that

1:41:53very different a different animal than a downtown core business commercial center where we have a new

1:42:00height study and we want more density and there's all this business and residential intermixed so I

1:42:07view them very differently so my concerns a little bit are are more prevalent for this one maybe

1:42:15compared to the other one that was more residential weighted more residential heavy than the one that

1:42:21we have in the downtown core so I'm I'm a little bit concerned with some of the sort of examples

1:42:26of well we're going to have a setback here and we're going to do this here that it becomes

1:42:33I don't want it to become cumbersome to development um so that that's just a broad I know it's a

1:42:41broad statement so I'm not suggesting on this road or that road but I I there's enough things sort of

1:42:48in the way of building that I just really don't want things like this to get in the way of building

1:42:58especially in an area that we've all agreed that we want to intensify get intensification and density

1:43:04in so I just want to make sure that the end result really hopefully really balances that and sort of

1:43:12really lays out in very clear language how it is not a hinders anything that's hindering that

1:43:21and then finally I would just echo that there is there is there is a disconnect whether we like it

1:43:26or not there is a disconnect of of some of the commentary we've been hearing from some delegates

1:43:32that have come up on other items and this one in regards to mr mr bison's presentation there is so

1:43:39there there is still a disconnect and we can't just discount that of sort of the on the ground

1:43:44reality of people and what they're experiencing with either insurance or mortgages or whatever

1:43:51compared to what we're kind of hearing elsewhere of like well it's maybe not a problem so it's not

1:43:58I'm not trying to say someone's right and someone's wrong but it is proper to I think observe that

1:44:03there's a disconnect here somewhere and I'd love to have that fleshed out just a little bit more

1:44:08before the final stuff comes back to to us with that though those are my comments just to

1:44:17for you to take away so I appreciate you letting me say that with that I'm happy to call the vote

1:44:22then because again this is just and for you council richerson it's just a receive yep only so

1:44:29if you're okay I'll call the vote then on receiving and is anyone against that

1:44:35no one okay so thank you very much to staff to our delegate as well and to our consultants we

1:44:41appreciate that we'll move right on to the next item and the next item is the let's see here it's

1:44:49the draft official plan amendment the official plan so speaking of receive only here's another one

1:44:59another receive only and this will we'll kick things off again with some presentations

1:45:06and then we'll look to move on after this one okay so go go right ahead please and maybe what I'll do

1:45:17I'll just give everyone in the room a heads up we'll finish this and then we'll maybe just take a

1:45:22five ten minute break okay before we go on to the next one uh yeah so what we'll do is we'll finish

1:45:34this off and then we'll probably take about a 20 minute or so break okay and then we'll come back

1:45:40so I know that the next one up is 132 Claire um so hopefully they can they don't mind that extra

1:45:47a little bit of a break I'm sorry but we will get through the official plan one first okay so again

1:45:52thank you over to you good afternoon mayor and members of council this afternoon we are here to

1:46:00present on golf's official plan update phase one which we are calling laying the groundwork today

1:46:06is the statutory public meeting and we will be presenting the draft official plan amendment for

1:46:11receipt what is an official plan an official plan is an important guiding document it provides a

1:46:36vision for growth and development within the city specifically an official plan describes how land

1:46:42in a community can be used it lays out where we live work or play and how we move around and access

1:46:48things we need in our city an official plan is prepared with the community to ensure that future

1:46:53planning and development will meet the specific needs and vision of the community these needs

1:46:58include housing jobs parks the environment infrastructure and more and an official plan

1:47:03determines when where how and in what order the city will grow why are we making changes

1:47:12there have been many changes to policies and plans over the past few years we are proposing

1:47:17changes for greater consistency between the official plan and these policies and plans

1:47:22starting back in 2022 city council approved two important master plan documents which are the

1:47:28transportation master plan and the parks plan these plans need to be integrated into our official

1:47:33plan to reflect new direction for transportation and parks policy in the city next official plan

1:47:43amendment 80 or known as opa 80 which was the city's growth management strategy to the year

1:47:482021 was adopted by city council in july 2022 and then approved by the province with modifications

1:47:55on april 11 2023 since that approval several modifications were initially made then reversed

1:48:02then partially approved again we're looking to clarify and implement the policies that have been

1:48:07modified attachment 3 to the staff report contains two tables describing both policy and mapping

1:48:13changes from the approval of opa 80 that are now in full force in effect there were also several

1:48:19provincial legislative changes during the last number of years including bill 23 which made

1:48:25changes to the ontario heritage act which is the legislation that governs municipal cultural

1:48:31heritage planning in addition on october 20 2024 a new provincial planning statement or pps came

1:48:38into full force and effect the provincial planning statement 2024 is a consolidation of the provincial

1:48:45policy statement 2020 and the growth plan for the greater golden horseshoe otherwise known as the

1:48:51growth plan decisions made by planning authorities must be consistent with this new provincial

1:48:57planning statement 2024 and so the official plan must be updated to reflect this new policy document

1:49:04with all these changes at different levels of government we want to provide certainty and clarity

1:49:09to the community on what policies are in place what policies have been removed and what policies

1:49:15are changing the official plan update aims to align the city of guelph's official plan policies

1:49:20with certain aspects of the city's master plans as well as to ensure the official plan is consistent

1:49:26with legislative changes and the new provincial planning statement to understand why we're updating

1:49:35the city's official plan policies to be consistent with provincial policy and legislation it is helpful

1:49:41to understand the provincial requirements for planning in ontario land use planning policy in

1:49:46ontario is governed through a hierarchical system at the top of our planning system is provincial

1:49:51laws which are set by the provincial government through legislation some examples of this legislation

1:49:57includes the planning act which governs overarching planning decisions across ontario and the ontario

1:50:03heritage act which governs the protection of cultural heritage resources in ontario

1:50:09legislation then informs the provincial planning statement the provincial planning statement is

1:50:14a document issued under the authority of the planning act which guides land use planning in

1:50:18ontario and gives municipalities specific policy direction for official plans municipal official

1:50:25plans must have regard for provincial law and be consistent with the provincial planning statement

1:50:30official plans may also be informed and include policy from municipal master plans or reference

1:50:36municipal master plans for further guiding policies on specific topics the official plan then helps

1:50:42shape regulations within a zoning bylaw provisions in a zoning bylaw determine what can and cannot

1:50:48be built on a property overall it's expected that the official plan updates will be done in multiple

1:50:57phases the first phase laying the groundwork which we are completing now will take place over the

1:51:03remainder of 2025 this phase includes amendments to reflect changes to the planning act ontario

1:51:10heritage act and the provincial planning statement it also includes amendments to correspond with

1:51:15the transportation and parks master plans and involves improving cultural heritage policies

1:51:21phase two is planned to take place in 2026 and is planned to include further amendments to align

1:51:27employment area permitted uses with the provincial definition and to include further recommendations

1:51:33from the transportation master plan future phases will commence in years to come and are planned to

1:51:39include further review on specific topics we're still scoping out these later phases so please

1:51:46note that specific projects and dates for commencement are subject to change so what has been included

1:51:56in phase one phase one of our official plan update includes implementing some of the new

1:52:01provincial planning statement and aligning policies with recent changes to the planning act this

1:52:07includes refining some of the city's existing official plan policies and changing or removing

1:52:12definitions phase one also includes adding key updates from the transportation and parks master

1:52:20plans to enable short-term growth this includes some proposed policy updates and mapping changes

1:52:27we are also improving our cultural heritage policies as we align policies and definitions

1:52:32with changes to the on here ontario heritage act and provincial planning statement and to increase

1:52:38the readability of the cultural heritage section as well phase one lays the groundwork for future

1:52:44phases of the official plan update providing a policy base for further updates as well as identifying

1:52:50policy areas within the official plan that will need further review and work in order to be consistent

1:52:55with provincial policy direction or to reflect city master plans what is not included in phase one

1:53:03phase one does not include large changes to where how or when wealth grows this includes changes to

1:53:09the growth management strategy which was approved through official plan amendment 80 it doesn't

1:53:14include changes to policies that require additional study this includes changes from master plans that

1:53:20require more targeted community engagement and are not immediately needed to facilitate short-term

1:53:25growth it doesn't include removal of cultural heritage protections and the creation of a new

1:53:31official plan phase one of the official plan update is fairly administrative in nature and is

1:53:37being proposed to align the official plan with provincial direction and some recommendations

1:53:42in master plans phase one included two initial information sessions in july today we are here

1:53:52for a statutory public meeting for a draft official plan amendment following this meeting the draft

1:53:57official plan amendment will be available on the city's have your say page for comment

1:54:04in december a comment and response matrix will be prepared based on the feedback we receive

1:54:10and in january 2026 a city council decision meeting for the official plan amendment will take place

1:54:23thank you britney so to make presenting these changes more digestible and understandable

1:54:31you can think of this official plan update as covering across seven different themes

1:54:35so these themes are cultural heritage employment environment complete community

1:54:41supporting growth transportation and parks so while the actual draft official plan amendment

1:54:46included as attachment one is in organized using these themes we'll be spending the rest of the

1:54:50presentation this afternoon uh using them to provide some examples of the policies definition

1:54:56or mapping that is proposed to change so due to the size of this amendment it's presented in a

1:55:04different format than council and the public may be used to when it comes to official plan

1:55:07amendments so we wanted to take some time to go through those formatting changes and how specifically

1:55:13to read this amendment the amendment included as attachment one is presented in three unique tables

1:55:19proposed changes to policy proposed changes to definitions and proposed changes to mapping

1:55:25for accessibility purposes words that will be changed have had the strong or bold styling

1:55:31applied to them this includes both words to be removed as well as words to be added through this

1:55:36amendment the five columns of these three tables are item number the current policy location in

1:55:42the official plan the current wording the draft amendment and staff comments text that is not

1:55:49proposed to change is unbolded and is included for context also for accessibility purposes

1:55:55all italics which typically denotes defined terms in the official plan have been removed

1:56:01from the wording in the table the staff comments column notes which words are currently defined

1:56:06and will remain defined words that we are proposing to no to no longer be defined through this amendment

1:56:12and words to be defined through this amendment to start with the theme of cultural heritage

1:56:21we're updating our cultural heritage policies for a number of reasons the first is to have regard

1:56:26for changes to the Ontario Heritage Act which were introduced through provincial legislation

1:56:30such as bill 23 and bill 200 the second is to be consistent with the new provincial planning

1:56:35statement especially related to defined terms and the usage of specific terminology and finally

1:56:41we're also taking this as an opportunity to revitalize and refresh our policies related to

1:56:45cultural heritage changes to the Ontario Heritage Act have resulted in a new municipal heritage

1:56:53protection policy framework so under the previous framework there were two tiers of properties

1:56:58under the heritage register our heritage register for those who don't know is an official municipal

1:57:03record listing culturally or historically significant properties within a municipality

1:57:09the first tier of properties were designated heritage properties and these properties are

1:57:13designated under a specific part of the Ontario Heritage Act this designation confirms almost

1:57:18all of the protections available under the Ontario Heritage Act such as prevention of

1:57:22demolition or significant alteration without a heritage permit the second tier of property

1:57:27is listed but not designated property unlike a designated property a 60-day notice period

1:57:33is required prior to demolition or development so that council can move to designate a property

1:57:39if they wish so the previous approach was that the city would maintain a large inventory of listed

1:57:45but not yet designated properties and then move to designate if development or demolition was

1:57:49proposed as appropriate under the new framework however properties that are not designated but

1:57:54just listed must be removed from the heritage register after two years and in addition if a

1:58:01property is removed from the heritage register it cannot be re-listed for the following five years

1:58:06lastly if there's a development or demolition application for property it may only be designated

1:58:10if it is already listed on the heritage register so many of the changes that we're proposing through

1:58:15this amendment are being driven by this new policy framework in addition we've also have proposed

1:58:23changes to policies and definitions from the new provincial planning statement so on the screen is

1:58:28an example of one of those definitions proposed to be changed words for removal have been bolded on

1:58:33this slide between the existing definition on the top and the proposed definition on the bottom

1:58:38so from staff's perspective this isn't a large change but it's important that we get the technical

1:58:42definitions correct and again consistency with the provincial planning statement and that the

1:58:47those proposed changes are thoughtfully implemented thank you we're also proposing new definitions

1:59:21to reflect changes made to the Ontario Heritage Act from bill 23 so our current official plan

1:59:26doesn't have an appropriate term to describe properties that are listed but not yet designated

1:59:30on the heritage register so we are proposing the new defined term listed non-designated heritage

1:59:35property this term reflects the intent of the Ontario Heritage Act that if a property is listed

1:59:40the intent is for it to be designated in the next two years under our employment theme we're proposing

1:59:50some changes to our employment policies and definitions to be consistent with the new provincial

1:59:54planning statement so the map on the right hand side of the screen identifies Guelph's employment

1:59:59land in purple at the time of the last official plan consolidation one of the proposed policy changes

2:00:04from the province we are responding to through this amendment is to allow employment land to

2:00:09convert from employment uses to non-employment uses at any time provided a number of criteria are

2:00:15met so these proposed changes for employment will have an impact on achieving our jobs target to

2:00:202051 so we are making some changes now as proposed through this amendment but employment is one area

2:00:26in particular that will require further study and potentially more changes in the future as part of

2:00:32phase two of the OP update so here's the proposed change the definition of an employment area to

2:00:42match the new definition from the province of Ontario in the provincial planning statement

2:00:46a few things to highlight with this change number one office uses which were previously permitted

2:00:51as a standalone use in an employment area are no longer permitted as a standalone use number two

2:00:57institutional uses which can include things like places of worship are explicitly not permitted

2:01:02in employment areas number three research and development and connection with manufacturing

2:01:07is now a permitted use in all employment areas and ciliary uses are still permitted but they

2:01:12have to be in conjunction with a primary permitted use for our environmental policies we're also

2:01:21making some targeted changes to policies definitions and objectives to be consistent with the new

2:01:25provincial planning statement this includes some administrative updates to storm water management

2:01:30policies federal and provincial ministry names and updating references to certain regulatory

2:01:35documents one specific change that we'll highlight on the next slide is integrating new language

2:01:39around climate change considerations so the first example is a new policy that would direct the city

2:01:48to incorporate climate change considerations when planning for and developing infrastructure

2:01:53which includes storm water management systems and public service facilities the second change is to

2:01:58give specific examples on what impacts of a change in climate might be and we're specifically listing

2:02:03erosion and changes in water balance which are important considerations for the city of guelph

2:02:08much of this work is already happening or is enabled with existing policy language in our

2:02:12official plan but we now have the opportunity to formalize it with support from provincial policy

2:02:16language complete community is our catchall theme for a number of changes being proposed so this

2:02:25theme includes recognizing and implementing all of the different components that make up a complete

2:02:29community including components that might be outside of the physical limits of our city such as

2:02:34agriculture changes also look to better serve members make up our larger community by including

2:02:39more inclusive language and including language that commits to early engagement with indigenous

2:02:43communities so here's an example of a change under this theme to update the definition of complete

2:02:53community our current definition on the left and the proposed definition is on the right

2:02:58in our new definition we're adding a language around equitable access and including references

2:03:02to complete communities as inclusive next we have supporting growth it's important that growth is

2:03:12planned through an appropriate planning framework to establish this planning framework we use a

2:03:16variety of concepts and terms to describe different areas of the cities and what policies apply to

2:03:21those areas we have established that framework already through official plan amendment 80 which

2:03:25was the city's growth management strategy to 2051 through tonight's op update we're not proposing

2:03:31significant changes to how we plan for growth we are removing concepts that are no longer used

2:03:36in provincial policy like urban growth center which previously described many downtowns and

2:03:41urban municipalities our downtown shown in the map on the right side of the screen will continue to

2:03:46be identified as the city's protected major transit station area so here's one of the definitions

2:03:58that we're proposing to update now for intensification we're specifically proposing to include wording

2:04:04on underutilized shopping malls and plazas as areas for intensification through official plan

2:04:09amendment 80 we've already identified many of our shopping malls and plazas as areas for intensification

2:04:15and higher density so this proposed definition is consistent with what we're planning to 2051

2:04:20for the theme of transportation the transportation master plan completed in 2022 provides a future

2:04:29vision for transportation within the city and provides policy direction and recommendations to

2:04:33support transportation growth and maintenance to meet this vision to integrate the transportation

2:04:38master plan into our official plan we're proposing changes that will include new right-of-way widths

2:04:43for arterial roads to support future travel demand arterial roads are large roads that function as

2:04:48the main spines of the city and support substantial traffic unlike local roads or collector roads which

2:04:53sustain smaller volumes of traffic as the city grows widening these roads may be required

2:05:00updating the right-of-way widths doesn't kickstart this widening process right away

2:05:03rather it gives the city the option to do so as needed and supported by future environmental

2:05:07assessment study the city is also proposing to add a number of new locations for recommended

2:05:13intersection improvements as identified in the transportation master plan intersection improvements

2:05:18may be required to facilitate wider sidewalks street lights and more to support future travel

2:05:23demand and support protection intersection design land for intersection improvements may be required

2:05:28to be dedicated to the city at the time a development application is approved transportation

2:05:34changes also include updating the targets in our official plan to be consistent with the targets

2:05:38set in our transportation master plan as the city grows we're targeting more of our transportation

2:05:43needs to be made outside of a private vehicle and through active transportation public transportation

2:05:48the proposed changes also include updates to official plan schedule five which is our road

2:05:53and rail network map so here's an example of one of the right-of-way widths to be adjusted

2:06:00the proposed change increased the number of meters that may be required to be included within the

2:06:04road widening dedication for a selection of roads locations with proposed increases to road

2:06:08widening dedication include sections of Gordon street Victoria road and Claire road these roads

2:06:14have been identified due to their proximity to strategic growth areas like the gulf innovation

2:06:18district or Claire Malby secondary plant areas so there have been a number of mapping changes

2:06:26proposed to schedule five of the official plan proposed changes include updates to identify

2:06:31what roads and gulf are functioning as arterials collectors or local roads so policies associated

2:06:36with the appropriate classification apply proposed changes also include updating roads that were

2:06:40previously only proposed but have now been constructed one too many thank you finally for

2:06:55the theme of parks the city has a number of master plans that relate to parks this includes the parks

2:06:59and recreation master plan the parks plan and the gulf trails master plan the recommendations

2:07:04within these master plans provide the basis for the policies in mapping as they pertain to parks

2:07:08within the official plan there are proposed changes to some of the parks policies and descriptions

2:07:13to align with these master plans some of these proposed changes including updating park type

2:07:18descriptions to match the 2022 park plan for example this would include descriptions of

2:07:23neighborhood parks community parks regional parks and urban squares as well the proposed changes

2:07:28include providing better certainty on what land can be accepted as parkland and when parkland

2:07:32dedication is required as part of a development application land that is not acceptable as parkland

2:07:37dedication has also been included in op policy so for example the definition of a neighborhood park

2:07:46is proposed to change the new definition provides more descriptive language to emphasize the intent

2:07:52of these types of parks as providing for the local community proposed changes include changing the

2:07:56intended service radius of these parks from 500 meters to between 500 to 800 meters this change

2:08:02is also included in the required criteria for neighborhood parks and again this specific change

2:08:06is driven by the 2022 parks plan there have also been a number of proposed changes to schedule six

2:08:16of the official plan which is the open space system and trail network map these proposed changes

2:08:21include updating trails that were previously proposed that have now been constructed so for

2:08:25example some new trails have been added can be seen in eastview park and pollinator parks specifically

2:08:30some trail mapping has also been removed specifically trails that are located on city sidewalks

2:08:35proposed changes also include adding in new park mapping for example neighborhood parks that

2:08:39connect with the trail network are included now on the schedule in the previous version of the

2:08:44schedule trails and parks were shown within the area of the clear multi-secondary plan trail and

2:08:49park mapping in this area has been removed because it is already included in the clear multi-secondary

2:08:53plan mapping as well in the current schedule there are a number of symbols included that show

2:08:58where trail related structures are needed such as staging areas canoe launches and nodes and trail

2:09:03gateways so these have been removed from this map as they are not referenced within the official

2:09:07plan so some dates to keep in mind after the public meeting tonight the public will be to

2:09:16provide it will be invited to provide additional comments on proposed changes through the projects

2:09:20have your say page and anticipated that the report and final proposed official plan amendment will

2:09:25be put to council for a decision in january 2026 will also be coming back to the heritage advisory

2:09:32committee in the planning environment and water advisory committee in november for more of a

2:09:36discussion on the proposed amendment comments received from now until the final decision report

2:09:41will be consolidated in a common matrix and included as an attachment to that january report

2:09:48so here's the recommendation happy to take questions we have staff both online and in person

2:09:54available well thank you very much to both of you and uh look i'm going to probably embarrass myself

2:10:04but um it's britney was this your was this your first time oh i'm not embarrassing myself

2:10:13this is your first time well you did a very good job you did a very good job thank you for doing

2:10:19that it's great you're all great but you're first so so that's great so thank you for your presentation

2:10:25really appreciate it um alzor alt i think has a question but council or alt you're probably

2:10:30willing to move receipt of this report as well and who would like to second that for me

2:10:35richardson great and question to councillor Allt thank you mayor Guthrie i promised you one question

2:10:42but there's also a comment um the first the first comment is a positive so i'll do that first

2:10:484.6.4 the new policy incorporating climate change i think is extremely important and i

2:10:54appreciate that i think that that will assist us with our deliberations on virtually everything

2:11:02the question i have relates to the major transit station area in the downtown

2:11:08it suggests to me that we are going to continue with the hub and spoke model of public transit

2:11:15focusing on the bus and the go terminal on cardinus street and i'm wondering what the

2:11:20ramifications of that might be and what the ramifications for growth and intensification

2:11:27in the hub might be since if we're identifying that as a major transit station area everywhere

2:11:34that strikes me that uh height limits uh everywhere could potentially be universal i also wonder what

2:11:42it means for uh efforts to create a grid pattern on major arterial roads where we have buses meeting

2:11:50up at peripheral locations i don't know which staff mayor Guthrie but if people could answer that i

2:11:57appreciate it so thank you through the mayor to the councillor so i'll start on the first part

2:12:05so the major transit station area for gualph is already defined in rop and we're just clarifying

2:12:10that uh the province has also identified downtown our downtown secondary plan is our major

2:12:16transit station area so it's just kind of wording that we're we're being consistent with that with

2:12:22that what the province is calling um the major transit station area so we're just making sure

2:12:27we have the wording wording correct and then we can implement any policies that are related to that

2:12:33for the second part of the question i'm going to pass it over to dc al claque busch

2:12:38thank you through the mayor so no we are certainly not looking to maintain the hub and spoke model

2:12:43part of the transit future ready action plan is about moving to a more grid like system it's a

2:12:49it's a hybrid and so as miss walkie mentioned that downtown transit terminal is that primary

2:12:55transit node but we have a number of other nodes throughout the city the university stone road mall

2:13:00eventually claire maltby and so it is the intention to uh continue that and to continue on our path

2:13:07to develop that more grid like system eventually the 97 route on edin burrow i'm going to get my

2:13:12numbers wrong but the speed veil cross town route um we have the intention to continue through that

2:13:18future ready action plan to continue moving to more and more spines and whatever the opposite of a

2:13:24spine is cross town routes um so that uh we are making sure that the transit system continues to

2:13:30evolve into a more efficient system and thank you very much for that answer um i think it's very

2:13:38important that have been stated for the concerns that might come from uh groups and individuals

2:13:45concerned about where we are going with transit this doesn't have a negative impact upon any transit

2:13:53future plans that's truly appreciated i think the opposite of spine might be hips and shoulder

2:13:58blades i'm not certain okay thank you um what i'm going to do here just for a moment doesn't

2:14:07look like there's anybody else at the council level right now but i did forget to do um a question

2:14:12to the room does anyone want to comment on this no okay you're sure it's riveting i know no okay

2:14:22and then we'll have uh we'll have the phone number pop up on the screen too

2:14:26and it's 519837 i think it's 5603 okay 5198375603 and we'll come back here in three four minutes

2:14:37just to see if anyone's called then okay thank you okay i'll call the meeting back to order there's

2:17:54no calls um is there any other takeaway for our staff at this point okay if not it's been moved

2:18:03and seconded i'll call the vote is there anyone against the receiving of this report with official

2:18:11plan nobody perfect that's unanimous thank you so much and um we are going to now take that break

2:18:22i mentioned so it's 550 let's come back here at 10 minutes after six okay 20 minute break

2:18:29and we will kick off with 132 clear road okay thank you very much we'll see you in 20 minutes

2:38:40to my colleagues online this is your uh one minute warning okay okay this is your 30 second

2:40:07warning all right i'd like to call the meeting back to order we are here now for the public

2:40:24meeting for the proposed official plan and zoning bylaw for 132 clear road west

2:40:31lindsay is going to come up from the city and give us a presentation and

2:40:38andrea is going to come up as a delegation after that lindsay over to you good evening mayor

2:40:51guthrie members of council staff and members of the public i am going to be presenting the

2:40:55statutory public meeting for the proposed official plan and zoning bylaw amendment applications

2:41:02for 132 clear road west so tonight is the statutory public meeting and no decisions

2:41:07decisions are going to be made on the applications tonight applications for an official plan

2:41:15amendment and zoning bylaw amendment have been received for a portion of the subject lands from

2:41:19mhbc planning limited on behalf of the owner madame to facilitate the development of a residential

2:41:25subdivision on lands south of the future poppy drive west in a high density residential development

2:41:30on block one lands within draft plan of subdivision located north of the future poppy drive west

2:41:37the portion of the lands municipally known as 132 clear road west subject to these applications is

2:41:47comprised of block one of the draft plan of the draft approved plan of subdivision 23t 15501

2:41:55which was originally draft plan approved in 2021 by the ontario land tribunal and the lands south

2:42:00of the future poppy drive west so up on the screen you see the location map outlined in right is the

2:42:06entire 132 clear road west property but the applications are specific to the one block north

2:42:12of poppy drive and then the one piece of land south of the future poppy drive west both outlined

2:42:19in right so on the screen here is a proposed conceptual site plan for block one which is for

2:42:37the block that is north of the future poppy drive west and this proposed concept plan has been prepared

2:42:43for conceptual purposes to illustrate possible ultimate development for this site which would

2:42:47be up to 250 units per hectare and a maximum building height of 14 stories however it does

2:42:53not reflect a final proposal for this block the internal road network is proposed to be privately

2:42:58owned and maintained on block one the applicant is also proposing a residential south subdivision

2:43:07south of poppy drive west that includes 24 low density residential lots one low density multiple

2:43:14residential dwelling block one natural heritage system block and two open space blocks so up on

2:43:20the screen is the proposed draft plan of subdivision which is for the lands south of the future poppy

2:43:25drive west so the existing official plan land use designations that apply to the subject lands

2:43:43include for the for block one of draft approved plan of subdivision is designated as corporate

2:43:48business park in the official plan and the proposed draft plan of subdivision lands south

2:43:55of clear south of poppy drive are currently designated within the clear maltby secondary

2:44:00plan and are predominantly designated as low density greenfield residential with portions

2:44:05being designated as significant natural areas and natural areas and clear maltby high density

2:44:10residential so the applicant is proposing a proposed official plan amendment for both

2:44:20the block to the north and the subdivision to the south the portion of the subject lands designated

2:44:25as low density residential greenfield are permitted to have a maximum net density of 16

2:44:30units per hectare for multiple re-unit residential buildings such as townhouses and apartments

2:44:36and block one of draft approved plan of subdivision is currently designated as business park in the

2:44:41official plan and the purpose of the official plan amendment is to redesignate it redesignate

2:44:46block one to the high density residential land use designation of the official plan

2:44:51site specific policies are proposed for block one to add the following permitted uses

2:44:56townhouses convenience commercial small-scale retail commercial small small-scale service

2:45:00commercial small-scale office and personal service uses and the official plan currently

2:45:06allows a maximum permitted density in the high density residential land use designation of 150

2:45:11units per hectare and a maximum building height of 10 stories the applicant is requesting a site

2:45:16specific policy to increase the maximum permitted density to 250 units per hectare and to increase

2:45:22the maximum building height to 14 stories for this block the purpose of the proposed official plan

2:45:36amendment for the lands south the poppy drive is to redesignate a portion of the lands currently

2:45:41designated as clear maltby high density residential to low density low density greenfield residential

2:45:47and to designate proposed blocks 26 and 27 to open space and parks under the clear maltby secondary

2:45:53plan and the applicant is proposing site specific official plan policies which include

2:46:04in addition to the high density residential uses permitted for the lands the lands may also be used

2:46:09for convenience commercial small-scale retail commercial small-scale service commercial

2:46:13small-scale office personal service and townhouse uses despite policy 9.3 0.4 0.2 the minimum

2:46:20minimum height shall be two stories and despite policy 9.3 0.4 0.3 the maximum building height

2:46:26shall be 14 stories and despite policy 9.3 0.4 0.3 the maximum density shall be 250 units per

2:46:34net hectare and those site specific policies would apply to block one which is north of poppy drive

2:46:46so the existing zoning is shown on the screen here block one is currently zoned a site specific

2:46:52corporate business park block according to the zoning bylaw and the proposed draft plan of

2:46:57subdivision lands are currently zoned zoned urban reserve the applicant is proposing a zoning bylaw

2:47:08amendment for both the north and south blocks proposed amendments for block one north of poppy

2:47:15drive include site specific regulations to the residential high density zone for block one

2:47:22and these site specific regulations include to add townhouse uses which include back to back

2:47:28clusters stack stack back to back as permitted uses to add on street townhouse and rear access

2:47:34on street townhouses as permitted uses to add a mixed use building a convenience store retail

2:47:40establishment office service establishment uses to reduce the minimum building height to two stories

2:47:46for a townhouse use to increase the maximum building height for apartments to 14 stories

2:47:51to increase the maximum density to 250 units whereas the residential

2:47:56high density zone currently permits a maximum of 150 units per hectare

2:48:00and to reduce the front yard setback from poppy drive west or townhouse uses to 4.5 meters to

2:48:07remove the maximum floor plate floor plate size requirement to a thousand square meters for every

2:48:16story above the ninth and to reduce the minimum tower setback for an interior interior side area

2:48:21to 7.5 meters whereas the zoning bylaw requires a minimum of 12.5 meters and to reduce the minimum

2:48:29parking rate to one space per dwelling unit plus 0.15 visitor spaces per dwelling unit

2:48:35whereas the current zoning bylaw requires a minimum of one space per unit plus 0.25 visitor spaces per

2:48:41unit and so the proposed zoning amendments for the proposed draft plan of subdivision which would

2:48:58include the lands south of the future poppy drive west would establish site specific zoning

2:49:04regulations through multiple site specific residential low density zones a site specific

2:49:09residential multiple six zone and rezone portions of the subject lands to open space and parks and

2:49:15zone and refine the natural heritage system zone site specific regulations requested through the

2:49:20residential low density two zone for blocks one to 11 and blocks 14 to 24 of the proposed draft plan

2:49:27of subdivision include to reduce the minimum front yard setback for the from the required

2:49:34six meters to 4.5 meters to reduce the minimum interior area of the garage to 18 square meters

2:49:41where 20 square meters is required and to increase the maximum width of the garage to 55 percent of

2:49:46the lot width or five meters five meters whichever is greater from the required greater of 50 percent

2:49:53or five meters for single detached dwellings in the rl two zone and site specific regulations

2:50:03requested through the residential low density two zone for blocks 12 to 13 include reducing the minimum

2:50:10front yard setback from six meters to 4.5 meters to reducing the garage width or the interior area

2:50:18the garage to 18 square meters from the required 20 square meters to reduce the minimum lot area to

2:50:25250 square meters whereas 275 square meters is required and site specific regulations requested

2:50:35for proposed townhouses within block 25 of the subject lands include to reduce the minimum

2:50:42unit width to five meters for all townhouses to remove the minimum front yard setback from private

2:50:47street curb or sidewalk whereas a minimum of six meters and three meters where a stacked townhouse

2:50:53has no garage and to remove the minimum rear yard setback from a private street curb or sidewalk

2:50:59whereas the zoning bylaw requires 7.5 meters and so the next steps of this application would be to

2:51:09complete a review of the application and submitted documents and any comments received tonight and

2:51:15from the public and once we have done a review of all the documents and evaluation of the proposal

2:51:25for conformity and consistency with the planning act conformity and consistency with the provincial

2:51:31poll provincial planning legislation in evaluation of the proposals conformity with the official

2:51:38plan including the official plan amendment criteria and evaluation of the proposals conformity with

2:51:43the zoning bylaw including the review of the proposed zoning bylaw amendment and the need for

2:51:47any additional specialized regulations so once all that is done we will be bringing forward

2:51:52a recommendation report to council at a future council meeting but in the meantime if there's

2:51:58any members of the public who wish to be notified of any future revisions or decisions on this

2:52:03application please email planning at wealth.ca with your full name and contact information so

2:52:10that concludes my presentation if you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them now or I

2:52:16can sit down as well. Yeah yeah thank you so much and yeah we'll just we'll listen to maybe the

2:52:21delegation who signed up Andrea to come on up here from MHPC planning I'll open it up then to

2:52:28anyone in the room or phone calls and then we can come back to you if need be. Welcome Andrea so no

2:52:35more than 10 minutes okay chime at the nine minute 30 second marked as the warning stick around

2:52:41just in case there's a follow-up question okay over to you. Little staff and those members of the

2:52:49public that may be watching tonight my name is Andrea Sinclair I'm a partner at the MHPC planning

2:52:54and I'm here on behalf of Mademy Truville Limited the owners of 132 Claire Road thanks to Lindsay for

2:53:02the very comprehensive overview I'm going to try not to overlap too much I know it's a packed agenda

2:53:06tonight but just want to provide some additional context on these applications but really here

2:53:11tonight to hear any questions that council may have or comments so we can take all this into

2:53:18consideration as we move this forward. One thing I wanted to mention just right at the beginning

2:53:26council may recall I was here earlier this year for another portion of 132 Claire Road that being

2:53:33the block at the corner of the future poppy drive extension and Gosling Gardens and for that

2:53:38application we were reducing the density in order to accommodate a stacked townhouse development and

2:53:44at that time we mentioned that we'd be back in the future with an application to have a higher

2:53:48density block elsewhere in the subdivision so that is part of this application that's before you tonight

2:53:57I don't know how to click this that's very obvious sorry

2:54:07sorry in terms of the surrounding context this is an appropriate area for residential intensification

2:54:14it's on an existing transit route well served by a number of amenities including the existing

2:54:19high school community park and the large commercial plaza surrounding the intersection

2:54:23of Claire Road and Gordon Street as Lindsay mentioned there's a number of applications

2:54:33on 132 Claire Road this property extends beyond these applications but what's ahead of council

2:54:39tonight for an initial review is block one these lands are part of an approved draft plan of subdivision

2:54:47that registration for which is imminent following registration these blocks will be created and

2:54:53can move forward with site plan applications and ultimately building permits and then the

2:54:59south poppy lands are within the Claire Maltby secondary plan but do not require the completion

2:55:06of ea's for roads so this portion of Claire Maltby can proceed in advance of the rest of Claire

2:55:11Maltby which is tied to a number of additional studies that are underway in mentioning the

2:55:21conversion of block one from office commercial type of designation to high density residential

2:55:28prior to the Claire Maltby secondary plan being completed the subdivision as well as

2:55:32a significant portion of the lands within Claire Maltby were all designated business park and

2:55:37industrial obviously with the completion of Claire Maltby those have all moved to residential use

2:55:42so this block really became sort of orphaned in the larger property it's going to be surrounded

2:55:47by residential on almost all sides it's got the emergency services to the west so it really

2:55:54doesn't lend itself to being a successful office business park type block because it really is

2:56:01not no longer forming part of that larger comp comp I'm we're forgetting complex thank you

2:56:10uh as mentioned this is a very preliminary concept for the uh block one lands just south

2:56:20of Claire road but what we're looking to do is have a mix of unit types so some of the zoning

2:56:25relief we're asking for is actually to expand on the permitted uses so rather than have a block

2:56:30that's only apartment buildings we'd like to be able to have a mix of apartments stacked towns

2:56:36back to back units and gradually have lower density multiple closer to poppy drive and

2:56:43higher density closer to Claire road so looking at a range of building heights from sort of

2:56:50two to three stories up to a max of 14 but Mademey's also exploring opportunities for

2:56:56mid-rise construction as that may be something that's a little bit more agreeable in the current

2:57:01market that we're in these are precedent images from other developments that have been completed

2:57:10by Mademey in terms of some of their mid-high-rise and sort of lower-rise multiple residential just

2:57:16to give council 90 of what some of this could look like in the future and in terms of the block one

2:57:26moving this from business park use to residential it's immediately adjacent to the strategic growth

2:57:31area as I mentioned previously we reduced density on the other property so this helps to offset some

2:57:38of that density that was previously reduced the there's frontage on both arterial and

2:57:43collector roads and there will be a range of residential unit types and potential for mixed

2:57:48use development in terms of the south poppy plan this will primarily be a low-rise residential

2:57:55there is a larger multiple block proposed that again would be I would say lower rise multiple

2:58:01residential form so it could be stacked towns back-to-back townhouses or traditional townhouse

2:58:06development but within a private condo block there are a couple of additional areas of open

2:58:14space being proposed and you'll see those connecting into the natural feature that is being retained

2:58:21and there will be a required buffer enhancement plan as part of final approvals for this project

2:58:28there is a small portion on the eastern side south of poppy that was designated high density

2:58:34residential in the Claremont B secondary plan that is proposed to be redesignated for low

2:58:39density residential which is something that was favorably received when we had the informal

2:58:45neighborhood meeting as a number of the residents along Gosling garden were concerned about having

2:58:50high density that close to their unit so our opinion having that high density on the Clare

2:58:57roadblock makes a lot more sense and again just some precedent images of what the future

2:59:04housing could look like a number of the zoning relief that Lindsay went through in her presentation

2:59:10some of that is really just to reflect what Mademie currently builds so obviously there is

2:59:16an efficiency and a cost savings in being able to build product that they already have plans for

2:59:21that they've already designed so you'll see some of that zoning relief is really just to allow

2:59:26this to happen much quicker without having to sort of restart their marketing for the property

2:59:36again these applications are close to transit they're on future collector roads the high density

2:59:43designation is going to be reallocated to the block one lands and the proposed designation in

2:59:48the Claremont B secondary plan already permits all of the uses that are proposed within the

2:59:54plan of subdivision that's all I have this evening I got in before the bell happy to answer any

3:00:02questions sure is there any for uh yeah okay well councillor Gauhar and then uh Koran

3:00:09thank you for your worship thank you so much for the presentation I wanted some clarification on the

3:00:16the request to have no setbacks from some of the roads usually you know we have three to six

3:00:21meters but some of the requirements are saying that you you want to have eliminate those setbacks

3:00:26so how would that be I mean would it be that buildings are like built right up to the sidewalk

3:00:33through you mr. mayor I don't believe there's anywhere we're requesting zero setbacks there was

3:00:39a request to not have stepbacks on some of the buildings but there would still be setbacks some

3:00:45of the setbacks are proposed to be reduced for example on the office block with the

3:00:53apartments that was normally be I think it's a 12 and a half meter step back to the side property

3:00:57line but because we've got a stormwater management block on one side the emergency services on the

3:01:03other that's one area where they thought they could be reduced similarly a reduced step back from

3:01:08Gosling Gardens which is consistent with the step back that staff was supported on the other block

3:01:13within the same subdivision so trying to maintain a bit of a consistency in terms of what that

3:01:18setback looks like along Gosling but I don't believe I'm looking there was anywhere where we

3:01:23were page six here it says to remove the minimum from dirt setback from private street curve to

3:01:29sidewalk and to remove the minimum rear dirt setback from private street curb or sidewalk

3:01:35so those are on page six of nine of the staff reports oh um I know there's a regulation that

3:01:43maybe Lindsay can explain it better than I can but there's a regulation in the new zoning bylaw

3:01:47that's requiring setbacks from sidewalks within a private development and it doesn't really work

3:01:55and it because that hasn't been worked through in the appeal process on a number of applications

3:02:00we've just been not applying that regulation so it's it's not we will still have setbacks to

3:02:05property lines and roads it's some of the internal setbacks from sidewalks okay that's what it's okay

3:02:11thank you for that thank you worship um look not normal but Lindsay like just just so we can make

3:02:17sure that we just stay on topic Lindsay are you are you good with that just just so we can yeah

3:02:23through the mayor uh to Councillor Goller yes with what the applicant has said is correct that is um

3:02:30one of the regulations that we do have problems with it's the wording is a little bit um difficult

3:02:36to implement so I do agree with what the applicant has said that way we just finished that off

3:02:44Karan please and I saw oh alt thank you and through you Mr. Mayor um I know you showed us

3:02:51some potential development south poppy um but I notice on the block one plan you also have these

3:02:56east west stub roads and you indicated in your presentation that the developer owns those adjacent

3:03:03lands or to the east and the west and so those stub roads would go somewhere and I and the reason

3:03:09for my question is mostly you know the interconnectivity of a neighborhood has roadways that go from

3:03:16private to public to other residential you know if you have a friend on one end of a subdivision

3:03:22they should be able to go and visit a friend on the other end of the subdivision without having to go

3:03:26to a collector or an arterial um those east west stub roads are those also in development

3:03:34um through Mr. Mayor so are you just within the block one within the block one there is a

3:03:41it's kind of hard without the map in front of me and I don't know if you can get it back up there but

3:03:45in the townhouse portion off of poppy drive um there's these two there's an interior road that

3:03:51ends that has two dead ends where do those dead ends go so um they the adjacent land so on the west

3:03:59side is the emergency services department on the east side is a storm water management block so uh

3:04:05and access is not permitted to clear roads so in terms of vehicle access we have to access that block

3:04:11from poppy drive however in terms of pedestrian access there will be and what really doesn't show

3:04:17on that preliminary concept is there will be sidewalk connections through from poppy to clear

3:04:21and also within the development so if you live in one of the units and you're visiting someone

3:04:25at another unit there will absolutely be connectivity and sidewalks but uh in terms of public streets

3:04:32there will not be public streets permitted they wouldn't be able to kind of punch through to those um

3:04:38I said one's emergency services and one's a storm water management block okay so it's not that

3:04:43they're intended to extend especially to the to the east towards gordon street correct okay um and uh

3:04:52I know I know that mademy has a number of projects right now that the that are our net zero can you

3:04:57please assure us that this will be a I know it's still many years to come but uh that this will

3:05:04contribute to our community energy goals and be a net zero development uh through mr. mayor so I can't

3:05:11commit that it will be net zero they have submitted their sort of summary of all their

3:05:17sustainability initiatives there are a number of things that mademy does um automatically in

3:05:22their developments it's probably too early to say if there will be for sure any net zero but it's

3:05:27certainly one of the things that we will be looking at as we go through the process thanks

3:05:39thank you mayor guthrie um through you to the delegate and uh thank you very much for the

3:05:46presentation I'll be asking similar questions of staff um block one and block two the corporate

3:05:52business and the urban reserve um strike make me think that this is in your words it's not

3:06:00zoning relief this is significant rezoning and I was wondering if you could please explain why

3:06:05you consider this to be zoning relief um through you mr. mayor so in terms of the zoning relief I was

3:06:16really referring to the site specific types of um things we're asking for in terms of the block one

3:06:22it is definitely a full rezoning from the uh office type designation to residential but as I mentioned

3:06:31since the time that draft plan of subdivision was submitted there's been quite a change in policy in

3:06:36terms of what this area and we felt residential is appropriate here the other block block two that

3:06:45already came forward to council that block already had residential permissions including the stacked

3:06:50towns that we are proceeding with so when that application came forward it was really just an

3:06:55application to reduce the minimum density because you couldn't actually um hit that density with

3:07:01towns and that's really because the block size was approved before the new zoning by-law and the

3:07:06densities changed so um so apologies if I misspoke but the zoning relief that we're asking for in terms

3:07:14of specific regulations are fairly minor but it is a full rezoning to uh residential use

3:07:21thank you and the other thing I'm struggling with is a is a number of units per hectare uh if I've

3:07:27got the the numbers correct the the proposal is to increase it from 150 units per hectare to 250

3:07:34or thereabouts is that correct that's correct yeah and that strikes me at a huge number of units

3:07:49just that's just a comment but I was wondering if you could please elaborate further on the

3:07:54natural heritage protection that's proposed so I'll take those uh sort of as two separate so on

3:08:02the density portion of it um the strategic growth areas or strategic priority areas of the city

3:08:09are around in and around that 250 units per hectare and as I mentioned um we're adjacent to that area

3:08:16the block that's actually within that area will not could not meet that density so it's

3:08:21significantly lower it's at 60 so and as I mentioned there was also supposed to be high

3:08:25density on the south side of poppy so because those two areas are not going to be developed as

3:08:30high density we've really redistributed it to this block um it is a maximum so the concept plan that

3:08:36was included in the package is not hitting that 250 it may be that we come in lower I believe the

3:08:42minimum is 100 units per hectare and we're not um proposing to change that so it will be at least 100

3:08:49but uh as I mentioned one of the things we're looking at is mid-rise and if this all went to

3:08:54sort of six-story apartments then I would suspect will be a fair bit under that 250 but given the

3:09:00uncertainties in the market not knowing where things are going um it was really just wanting to have

3:09:06some flexibility and we think the block is situated such that it can accommodate some

3:09:10heightened density without really having negative impacts on the surrounding community and then in

3:09:15terms of the natural heritage protection when the existing draft plan of subdivision was approved

3:09:22the wetland was staked um a 30 meter step back was established and through that draft plan of

3:09:28subdivision that staffer in the process of reviewing for registration there was a requirement to do

3:09:34all the compensation um any compensation planting as well as planting within the buffer to kind of

3:09:40add additional heritage features so that's all outside of the lands that are proposed to be

3:09:45designated residential and is staying designated and zoned for natural heritage and open space

3:09:51thank you appreciate that last question it's it's really crisp of all gazing in some senses

3:09:59when given the market and given workforce challenges at the present when is this being

3:10:05proposed to be built out start and when finished it's a good question and yes i think all of my

3:10:15developer clients would love to have a crystal ball right now um madame's very motivated so as i

3:10:21mentioned the draft plan of subdivision that was already approved on claire road um we are trying

3:10:26to have that registered before the end of the year the initial stacked townhouse block that was

3:10:31before council earlier this year um we've made several site plan submissions it needs the registration

3:10:37of the subdivision to plan approval but i would say we're very close in terms of satisfying all of

3:10:44staff's comments so they'd like to if possible start servicing of that stacked townhouse block

3:10:50as early as the end of the year um the poppy drive construction and servicing is already underway

3:10:56with poppy drive construction intended to be finalized next year and then those uh the lands

3:11:03within the subdivision obviously that subdivision has to be approved and registered that would

3:11:07sort of be next but um in terms of the lower rise in the stacks madame's fairly confident that

3:11:14those can go forward in this market the block one and potential higher density i think is the

3:11:20is the slower to come back and um but what we want is to make sure that the zoning and the

3:11:25designation is in place so that when the market starts to rebound we're not starting from scratch

3:11:31then so as everyone knows it takes a long time to work through all the various planning processes

3:11:35but uh they are hoping to start construction on this site on parts of 132 as early as next year

3:11:42thank you for trying to read the tea leaves that's appreciated

3:11:49all right thank you councillor Chew and then kate thank you through you mr mayor so i'm just

3:11:57trying to understand so is poppy drive going to be fully built out next year and is it going to be

3:12:05a portion of it that's going to be completed um for block two block one i'm just trying to understand

3:12:12the timing just from your standpoint so the first phase of construction of poppy drive will um include

3:12:19will start at gosselin gardens so that'll provide access to the stacked townhouse block so that once

3:12:24that portion of poppy drive is constructed and we have full site plan approval those could go um in

3:12:30terms of building permit and could be could start being constructed as soon as next year

3:12:36the full extent of poppy drive will have to be constructed for the subdivision that's proposed

3:12:40the south as well as block one but that all of all of the plans for the poppy drive extension

3:12:47are part of the draft plan of subdivision that staff are working through registration right now so

3:12:53it's um very far along in terms of all the engineering and all the servicing plans have been

3:12:57approved so it's really um a matter of getting the registration the subdivision registered and

3:13:03tenders already out there they're motivated to complete poppy drive thank you i see nothing further

3:13:14except for councillor billings through you mr mayor um i'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry

3:13:21sorry christine councillor Caton first then billings sorry thank you through you mr mayor um

3:13:30to the delegate uh is the intention for these to just all be for sale market value

3:13:39um through mr mayor so in terms of the south poppy subdivision lands on the south side of poppy

3:13:45road those would all be ownership um in terms of block one potentially ownership there could be

3:13:52some rental the sort of final determination of that block is really still undecided at that point

3:13:58at this point sorry um so just based on the required versus proposed um within the staff

3:14:10right up it just looks like you're asking for a lot you know in terms of the additional population

3:14:17and everything so i would imagine um in that regard that there would be something specifically of

3:14:25value in terms of affordability extra accessibility um things like that so like as is for me personally

3:14:34it just feels like a lot of asks without a lot of give and so i would just uh have that as feedback

3:14:41right now thank you noted thank you now billings please true your worship i apologize because the

3:14:52feed is cutting in and out for me so some of the verbiage you used i i missed so i apologize so i

3:14:59may be asking the same question but it has to do with block one so block one my understanding it's

3:15:08not in a strategic growth area because it was employment lands am i incorrect uh through the

3:15:16mayor that is correct it's not within the strategic growth area not necessarily because it was um

3:15:21employment lands but the strategic growth area kind of cuts off at the edge of the block two in the

3:15:27same subdivision plan which was the which is the block where the stacked towns are proposed to go

3:15:33okay so then taking employment lands out of the op what's the criteria that you used in order to

3:15:42justify that so there's um a significant distinction between protected employment and other forms of

3:15:50employment so they're not protected employment so it's not considered a conversion under the Planning

3:15:56Act there are policies that look to whether or not uh in redesignating new lands for high density

3:16:04residential so we've looked at the criteria for where you should locate high density residential

3:16:09and these this property does meet that criteria but obviously um at this point we don't have staff's

3:16:16comments we are still waiting for feedback on this but in terms of previous discussions with staff and

3:16:22in particular what's happened with Claire Malpy and the switch to residential um i think it was

3:16:26generally agreed that that does make some sense for residential here and that if there is residential

3:16:32here it should be higher density because of some of the other areas where that high density is not

3:16:36being achieved so so then with your dialogue with staff then i i guess what i'm struggling with is

3:16:48high density 150 units per hectare 10 stories high and you were talking about maybe coming in

3:16:55maybe 100 or less than 100 units per hectare but your request is for 250 units per hectare

3:17:03and 14 stories and it's not in a sort of sorry strategic growth area that's where i'm having a huge

3:17:11problem with your application because what we had before i know you're asking for a change

3:17:18was only a small little area of high density and now okay you want to change that but then block

3:17:24one is is is quite large and then you want that to be 250 instead of 150 so i'm really struggling with

3:17:34with what you're requesting so is your feedback that you received from staff that this is okay

3:17:39we were still waiting for circulation comments so we'll take back all of this feedback including

3:17:45those comments from council but um given sort of where the city's going in terms of within

3:17:51Claremont be they're looking at a little bit higher densities and heights um considering that

3:17:56there are areas that we know are not hitting this um it was really intended to provide flexibility

3:18:02but that doesn't mean that we're fixed on this specific density we'll see all the comments that

3:18:08come back including comments from the public and remain open to looking at this and considering it

3:18:14further okay okay thanks okay thank you councillor billings nothing further from myself so you're

3:18:25good there um we'll just now open it up to the rooms anyone in the room want to talk about this

3:18:30okay we'll throw up the phone number on the screen

3:18:35i don't even have to look at it 519-837-5603

3:18:40i'm right 519-837-5603

3:18:47we'll wait three four minutes or so to see if anyone wants to call in on this one

3:18:52thank you okay there's been no call in so we are good it is back to us again this is another

3:21:37receive only so uh councillor hauser has agreed to move and councillor chou has agreed to second

3:21:46receive only is there any other feedback that has not been stated yet at all for staff to take away

3:21:55galler than alts than billings thank you through worship to staff um one of the comments that

3:22:02heard was that this is not a strategic growth area but could you clarify for me is the corner of

3:22:09um gordon and claire not a strategic growth area through the mayor to councillor Goller

3:22:19this particular block is not within a strategic growth area claire and gordon so it does cut off

3:22:25we're um block two if you were recall back in um april there is that stacked townhouse block so

3:22:31that is technically the last piece in the subdivision that is part of the strategic growth area for

3:22:36the claire gordon okay so this is adjacent to it yeah so so there's like the stacked townhouse block

3:22:43which is within the strategic growth area and then right to the left i guess if you're on claire road

3:22:49facing it it's to the right is will be the future storm water management block and then block one

3:22:54this block okay thank you would it be possible that when this comes back to us uh that we have

3:23:01a mock-up of what it would look like at the maximum allowed density like what what that

3:23:07block would look like at 150 versus that 250 because i think it's a little bit hard to conceptualize

3:23:13just how much more density that is in terms of you know what the buildings will look like is that

3:23:18is that something that maybe i don't know if it would be to you or to the developer uh that we

3:23:23could make that request uh through the mayor to councillor Goller we can certainly take that back

3:23:28and ask the developer to provide some different concepts that would show the different development

3:23:33scenarios okay okay thank you um i i appreciate the the comments now through your worship um

3:23:42the need for the greater density i do feel that this is within close walking distance of that major

3:23:49urban square uh with the the grocery stores and and the other amenities um i do have concerns

3:23:56about the reduced amenity yeah i feel that it is quite a significant reduction for people that

3:24:01will be living there in terms of of places for our kids to play and for families to to to be

3:24:09and i do have concerns about some of the setbacks to the street i would appreciate you know seeing

3:24:15what that would look like to to be there so on principle i i do not object to the increased

3:24:23density and increased heights because of the location if the amenities are available for the

3:24:28residents to to be a livable space thank you okay all 10 buildings thank you mayor Guthrie um

3:24:38my purpose to staff is i am struggling with this proposal significantly i'd heard the word

3:24:45zoning relief and i don't consider this zoning relief at all and this is why i need staff to weigh in

3:24:52i do believe the developer but this knowing how it's zoned and zoning relief is asking for minor

3:24:58changes this is asking for a lot and i'm inclined at this point not to support this so i need staff

3:25:05to actually please weigh in on such things as blocks uh one and two and the the significant

3:25:13changes in my opinion that are being asked for there and also the fact that there's a likelihood

3:25:21this won't be built out for a long time i think councillor kate and quoting her says this is asking

3:25:28for a lot and councillor billings basically saying the same thing are on the right path here this is

3:25:34asking for a lot it's not zoning relief so if staff could comment on that it would truly be appreciated

3:25:44through the mayor to councillor Allt um yeah that's something we can review and comment on

3:25:49in our final recommendation um so the applicant did apply for an official plan amendment and zoning

3:25:55bylaw amendment so um i think in terms of what the applicant had said in terms of zoning relief in

3:26:01terms of zoning relief for the specific zone that they're asking for um however we do review that um

3:26:09comprehensively through the planning justification report and everything else that they've submitted

3:26:15and we'll provide a full um analysis in our final report to council um

3:26:26sorry thank you very much i don't think i need to really say anything more i truly

3:26:30am struggling with this one as zoning relief uh thank you and billings through you mr mayor um

3:26:41just a couple of issues uh the reduced minimum lot area don't like that and then also reduced

3:26:48minimum interior of the garage um we had another planning issue where the request was to reduce the

3:26:57interior of the garage and i can't even remember if that came back to council um or or not that

3:27:04specific application i was just wondering where staff are landing on this because it's not the

3:27:10first time we've had this request and i don't like reducing um the interior from from 20 square

3:27:18meters to 18 through the mayor to councillor billings um that's something we'll have to report

3:27:25back on um i believe the other project you're referring to hasn't been brought back to councillor

3:27:31yet for consideration but it is something that we do um look at as part of our review okay and then

3:27:40also because it's not a strategic growth area i don't like the idea actually of taking these lands

3:27:46out of the employment use however and saying that if if staff feel that's um justified the people

3:27:53even across the street i mean they bought in when this was corporate business it's employment lands

3:28:00two stories and so then to to support 14 stories is i i believe um a little thick and so i was hoping

3:28:09that if staff does uh support um residential here high high density residential that we could keep

3:28:19two the zoning and the op 10 stories um at at the most and 150 units per hectare it's just a request

3:28:30okay uh thank you is there any other feedback all right um i would just uh you know a little bit

3:28:40of an echo of what we heard but i just want to say to andrea you being representative of the of the

3:28:46builder um that i think i could i could tell that you were authentically wanting to listen to the

3:28:55feedback to take it back that's my that's my take so just want to appreciate that if you did take

3:28:59the feedback that you heard from us tonight to consider it um and also i do know that you know

3:29:04madame wants to build and the market has very much shifted everybody like every developer everywhere

3:29:12is very much very scared of high rise all over the place now and only that so the fact that i'm

3:29:21hearing that there could be a mix of other housing forms here to me is actually something we desperately

3:29:27need um so i'm actually pleased about that i think the flip makes a lot of sense sure we can talk

3:29:33about the density and stuff so that's fine but the flip of where that is makes a lot of sense to me

3:29:39and so hopefully we can get the comments back uh from staff to you and you can maybe try to

3:29:44accommodate what you've heard and we can see how this moves forward from there so i just would encourage

3:29:48both staff and yourself to to take what was said here tonight and and to see how we can get this

3:29:53this moving along to maybe a different outcome that can have uh you know a good a good vote of

3:29:58confidence from council in the future so thank you very much we appreciate that it's been moved

3:30:03and seconded so i will call the vote is anyone against receiving only only fill only counselor

3:30:10alt is against receiving and kate okay other than that it still passes so thank you very much

3:30:18and we'll move on to the next one uh and that will be for signed by law variance 705 south gate

3:30:29drive and so we are good at the the um the report sort of speaks for itself here at council so

3:30:39there's uh basically three recommendations that are in front of us one of them is looking for an

3:30:45approval the other two are looking for a refusal and uh the staff are recommending refusal especially

3:30:53around sort of the height requirements that are being proposed by the applicant and also

3:31:01other signage that's kind of already on the property i'm trying to give a high level

3:31:04view of the report but um we do have a uh delegation uh liz is it uh i'm sorry liz is it

3:31:14risk rush okay that was going to be my fourth try on that one so i appreciate you saying it

3:31:22liz welcome uh you're from country signs so i will turn it over to you we uh it's a five minute

3:31:29uh delegation and so there will be a chime at the four minute and 30 second

3:31:37point of the delegation as a warning and then i will have to turn off the microphone at the

3:31:41five minute mark but stick around just in case there is any uh questions from myself for my

3:31:46colleagues okay so i'll turn it over to you and your time starts whenever you're ready go ahead

3:31:52perfect thank you so much uh good evening mayor Guthrie and council thank you for having me today

3:31:57and staff for all of their assistance um i'm going to start with an overview and then i'll get into

3:32:02kind of specifics um so this property at 705 south gate drive it's a corner lot and faces three roads

3:32:09in the south end of gulf the busiest intersection is layered in south gate and then handland parkway

3:32:16is 200 meters away it is surrounded by commercial properties and cannot be seen from any residential

3:32:22parcels or sorry parcels um with a plan for multi-service based businesses on this property

3:32:31appropriate glanceable signage is required uh in the petroleum industry we have the uh this

3:32:42includes the visibility up signage so if you ever realized when you're coming up on a gas station

3:32:46and you got curious on the gas price to make your decision on whether you're actually going to pull

3:32:50in or not um generally you're able to just take a quick glance over see it right away and there's

3:32:55minimal obstructions um it's because signs are designed to attract not distract if drivers are

3:33:03hunting around for information they're more distracted than ever um so low ground signs mean

3:33:09that they're easily covered by another vehicle or growth or anything like that um and it's just not

3:33:14as easy to see so breaking us down further um i'm just looking at the layered road signed first

3:33:22this line has been approved by mto um it is currently blocked uh the section that it's going

3:33:28in is blocked by a city chain link fence that is six feet tall that you can see in this image

3:33:33um with a taller sign um all businesses on site will receive the appropriate signage with minimal

3:33:39obstruction um the sign is also visible from further away i'm not sure if we can switch to the next page

3:33:47um so this kind of just gives you an overview of where the fence is if we have the seven and a

3:33:51half uh meter pile on our sign uh versus if we were to actually lose that section lose that height

3:33:57and then have the fence in front of it as well we lose significant space on that um sign and so

3:34:06making sure that the sign is visible uh so the gas price and businesses can be seen um and decisions

3:34:11can be made at a safe distance to get to the turning lane and make their way into the site is

3:34:15important is important uh the petro canada is located at the far side of the site from layered

3:34:20meaning the signage that exists on it currently is not visible until cars are directly beside

3:34:24the location i'm not here to speculate on what other signage will go on site i'm not stating

3:34:29i'm just stating what exists for the gas station itself um having the appropriate signage area

3:34:35available also means the owner can attract a variety of businesses for franchises there are a

3:34:40lot of stipulations around uh grounds area sorry ground sign area and signage area requirements

3:34:45and if there is less space it means that there are less businesses that would be able to entertain

3:34:50this location um and so we're talking about future sustainability here and not just the current situation

3:34:57for the other side of uh this signs actually sorry if you want to the next page please

3:35:04um so this is just kind of the visibility of like the price sign and everything on layered road

3:35:09coming from handlin is on the right hand side and then just at the the stop signs there you can kind

3:35:14of see there's distractions in that that area and in the next page and so this is the south gate

3:35:24and corporate court um section so the height here is definitely about safety um as the entrance is

3:35:29entrance is not as straightforward um so you can't pass the sign and then decide to get into the location

3:35:37so it could make it business um because they missed the entrance or even worst case scenario is they

3:35:46could be creating an unsafe situation to try and get into that station by maneuvering around a median

3:35:52or hammering on brakes and those kind of things if they see the information too late um having this

3:35:58height means that people can see it from further distance and the businesses that exist at the

3:36:02location so that nobody is second guessing themselves and creating a safety hazard at that corner because

3:36:09um where I've indicated the entrance on the right hand picture is where they would have to enter and

3:36:14this sign is actually after that entrance um which isn't kind of a typical situation when

3:36:20you come to a gas station usually you see the sign you pass it you enter um and so it's just not possible

3:36:27just so you know just so you know Liz it's a 30 seconds okay okay perfect um so the original

3:36:33hope was a nine meter sign and so we determined a seven and a half would be possible we are generally

3:36:38allowed these in different municipalities and I do have six examples of different cities that do

3:36:43allow these without any consideration uh outside their bylaws um and I think of those to you guys

3:36:49if you would like them thank you very much okay right on the right on the bell thank you so much

3:36:57councillor councillor billings has a question for you um okay the municipalities that allow

3:37:04are you talking the seven and a half yes anywhere from seven and a half to nine okay okay so

3:37:12surrounding municipalities do you have any I have Ottawa Mississauga Brampton uh Clarington

3:37:18Obomenville Aurelia Cornwall basically all across Ontario okay those are ones I could just pull out

3:37:25that I could remember off the top of my head okay then through you Mr. Mayor uh I just want to ask

3:37:31about sign one so sign one you have the three meter setback but then there's this unsightly fence

3:37:40so I drove out there yesterday to take a look at this because sometimes um

3:37:47you know in real life seeing the the situation in real life is different than than a picture that

3:37:53that's in our package and so I I understand what you're talking about with this fence

3:37:58but in your conversation with staff was it ever brought up like is it possible at all so that some

3:38:05of that fence can be taken taken out removed so that the fence isn't blocking that sign so again

3:38:13just sign one um I am not aware of any ability to remove that fence I I'm honestly not sure

3:38:23why it exists okay um so yes okay okay sign sign B yeah you're asking for one meter setback

3:38:36where we require three meters is I thought the ground signs were required to have three

3:38:44meters but maybe I'm wrong um so so my question is is it is it possible at all to have a larger

3:38:52setback than the one meter for for sign B um so it is required to be a minimum setback of one

3:39:00meter from a street line okay um for the maximum height of six meters um which is why we are asking

3:39:07for the extra um based on this site I do not believe that we can go much further back on

3:39:14this side I did look because MTO does like to have a three meter setback which is why we did move

3:39:20the layered one back to the three meters um just in preparation and speaking with MTO um so I was

3:39:30trying to look at the the site plan um I don't believe we would be able to go back to three meters

3:39:36at that point um just because the convenience store is we're kind of side okay okay thank you thank you

3:39:50so any other follow-up or am I good for this then okay it looks like I'm uh good with this

3:39:58Liz thank you very much for your delegation tonight we appreciate it um okay so uh there's

3:40:08nothing further would someone be willing to move the staff recommendation now there's three of them

3:40:15the first one being to approve and the second one being to refuse and the third one being to refuse

3:40:22so does anyone want to move the staff recommendations to put them on the floor

3:40:26uh k-10 and uh downer okay um questions okay uh goller and then billings

3:40:38do you're working with the question of the chain link fence could you let us know why it is there

3:40:44and if there's a potential for it to be removed through the marido councillor goller I do believe

3:40:52that's an MTO fence so staff would not um could authorize we cannot talk about that totally get it

3:41:00and and my second question um the report speaks to um this not being in compliance with the council

3:41:07approved guidelines but given that it is in a purely industrial zone and um as as was mentioned

3:41:16you cannot see the sign from any residential area um would there be other negative impacts

3:41:23if we were to allow the larger signs yes yeah I think I'm just trying to understand um you know

3:41:34besides the fact that it's what council said what would be the other downsides of allowing the

3:41:39the larger signs through the marido councillor goller um you know other than what council endorsed

3:41:46and wished for the city to have um um these specific regulations and there weren't special areas

3:41:55if only residential if only commercial if only industrial that was not included in the sign

3:42:01by law it is um as written okay okay I really appreciate that um and if if council were to today

3:42:13allow the larger size of signs because it is an industrial zone and it is far away from

3:42:19residential do you foresee other negative consequences for other parts of the city

3:42:27through to the marido councillor goller I would expect more sign variances than to come to council

3:42:35okay now I think that the crux here is that this is an industrial area it is far away from

3:42:41residential if we allow this and then next month an industrial area that is across the street from

3:42:47residential would we have to allow that because we allowed it here or could we say no to that one

3:42:53because we can say actually they can see you from the apartment building sort of from the townhouses

3:42:58would that be be allowed for us to say no to that one but yes to this one because of the proximity

3:43:05to residential I'll answer that because that's kind of a political question it's the will of council

3:43:11we can have 11 more applications come in and they all don't meet whatever our criteria is and we

3:43:16can say no thank you council every time thank you worship I'm just you know if it does go to a

3:43:22tribunal and staff tells me because we approved it here the tribunal is going to overturn every

3:43:27other decision because we said yes to an industrial I think that's what I was trying to understand

3:43:33and through the mayor if I can clarify so this is not subject to the OLT or to a tribunal this is

3:43:38council's final decision and if I can just clarify one other item council caller it's not it's only

3:43:43the size of the sign was one item but it was also the setback was another item so it was the height

3:43:48the size and the setback there was three parts in those second those two other recommendations

3:43:53thank you thank you think of billings I think I saw your hand go up for a question

3:43:59it was Mr. Mayor but I was asked I wanted to ask about the the fence because I thought

3:44:04my understanding from the report was that it was a city fence

3:44:08not no no problem so that's okay all ALT and then I'll describe thank you Mayor

3:44:17deathly through you to staff the setback is a concern to me because it especially as soon as

3:44:24I found out that it was an MTO fence as well I'm wondering if there are implications from the

3:44:30highway traffic act and sight lines and visibility given that that is a high traffic area through

3:44:40the mayor to council or ALT MTO did review and approve they issued their permit their development

3:44:47permit for the ground signs and sight line triangles are also looked at with applications

3:44:53and we do ensure that they are out of sight out of sight line triangles thank you okay so what we

3:45:03have in front of us is a few options okay the the staff motions have been tabled one for

3:45:11approve two for refuse three to refuse if they're I'll separate them out okay so we'll do one two and

3:45:19three um if you want to approve them to allow them to build the build these signs then my suggestion

3:45:30is that you let me ask the the clerk would it be best for us to defeat two in number number two

3:45:37and number three and then have a new motion go down or would it be best to do an an amendment

3:45:43to change the word refuse to approve through you mr. mayor an amendment of that fashion would

3:45:50be contrary to the original motion show to be defeated and then put back on the floor

3:45:54was simply the word refuse change to approved okay that's okay so it's the first one I suggested

3:45:59so you would if you want to allow the signs to occur just defeat number two and defeat number three

3:46:06okay and then we can have a conversation after that okay so I'll call the vote on number one

3:46:11which is to approve is there anyone against no and now we'll call the vote on number two

3:46:20is there anyone against so how's her and downer and quassan and gut three

3:46:28and busitil and chew and galler and Richardson and billings and Gibson okay so that's 10 so that

3:46:40that's that okay now we're going to number three is if uh is there anyone against number three

3:46:49so uh Richardson and galler and chew and busitil and gut three and downer and quassan and hauser

3:46:58and Gibson and billings okay so um it's ward six counselor howzer would you be willing to then

3:47:08move a motion uh the two motions as as to approve uh yes um I propose that council consider

3:47:16approving the reverse recommendation okay and then chew it's your word do you want to second that

3:47:23yep okay so I'll call the vote do I need to separate those two or no okay I'll call the vote then

3:47:30by the way clerks you're with me on on this okay I'll call the vote on those two to approve

3:47:35okay is anyone against that okay alt and katin okay and so those sign variances are approved

3:47:46all right thank you very much to staff and to the delegation and uh and uh we'll move on to the

3:47:51final one it's the final countdown one claire road um we this is a decision uh report so it's five

3:48:05minutes for delegations okay and our first delegation actually has withdrawn so um is it

3:48:13awes camille awes come on down you are going to be our only delegation because it looks like

3:48:23everyone else on the list I've been told is here for questions only just in case am I right okay

3:48:31so welcome and again five minutes you'll hear the time at four minutes and 30 seconds as a warning

3:48:37and uh I'll turn it over to you and the time starts whenever you're ready good afternoon

3:48:52mayor guthrie and council my name is awes camille I'm a partner with mhbc planning representing

3:48:56first capital the owners of pergola commons shopping center um what I'd like to do is provide a brief

3:49:03summary and be available for questions along with our consultant team who's here to help

3:49:09today's presentation will cover a very brief overview of the proposal given I only have five

3:49:13minutes a summary of comments from the september 9th public meeting and key updates to the draft zoning

3:49:19bylaw in terms of the proposal um some key details uh proposed heights range from 10 to 14 stories

3:49:28consistent with opa 80 for this area there is an 1800 square meter park to be conveyed over 2100

3:49:35square meters of commercial space proposed 715 residential units 850 parking spaces which allow

3:49:43at least one space per unit and 819 bicycle parking spaces in the site plan here four buildings are

3:49:52proposed each with a 14-story component and rooftop amenity space I note that the southmost

3:49:56tower is only 10 stories as it approaches the lower density development to the south

3:50:02but north south one earth style internal road which you can see through the middle of the site is

3:50:07proposed to help promote walkability through the site the ground floor the ground floor plan shows

3:50:13how spaces are designed to activate the site commercial spaces are shown in that um along

3:50:19clear road and along the uh wrapping around the corner of the private road which is the

3:50:24considered the farley road extension residential lobbies are shown in yellow uh face which face

3:50:30the private road intersection there's town home shown in uh the aqua green color uh that line the

3:50:36one earth Hawkins drive and part of poppy drive and both indoor and amenity indoor and outdoor

3:50:42amenities are located next to the park and one earth um what I'd like to do here is just show

3:50:49a couple of renderings so this is a rendering this is looking up the one earth from poppy drive you

3:50:55can see to the east this is this image is across the private access road from farley drive this is

3:51:10a view of the retail spaces fronting clear road and this is a full view in context which shows the

3:51:19other relatively recent tri-car developments on the left side of the page so the public meeting

3:51:28was held on september 9th allowed council and the public to share feedback

3:51:33at this meeting the following questions uh key questions and concerns were raised

3:51:38loss of commercial space and recreational use building heights and built form considerations

3:51:43traffic and site access and parking there were concerns about the loss of commercial and recreational

3:51:51uses particularly the potential closure of the theater when you exclude the theater which is more

3:51:57of a recreational community community use pergola commons as a whole currently has 115,400 square feet

3:52:04of commercial space with a proposed development this increases to 121,000 square feet in place of

3:52:12the theater the development offers high quality amenities for both future residents and the surrounding

3:52:17community including a public park and a flexible winter space space that can serve various community

3:52:24functions it's important also to note the theater will only leave the site if the operator chooses

3:52:32to close the other the other comment that was raised was building heights and built form considerations

3:52:41the site is located in within the strategic growth area which is intended for intensification

3:52:46the proposed heights fully conform to op 80 permissions the site has been organized so that

3:52:51the height decreases moving from clear road east towards the surrounding low density residential

3:52:57development and proposed parkland each building includes a 14-story component with podiums

3:53:03along the park limited to six stories and townhomes on poppy drive east limited to two stories creating

3:53:09an appropriate transition to lower density areas and minimizing shadow impacts the building

3:53:14massing and podium design correct creates a strong pedestrian scale and positive public realm illustrated

3:53:20in this rendering the other concern was traffic and site access that was also raised

3:53:30the site layout optimizes internal and external locations external circulation maintaining

3:53:37existing access conditions along the Farley extension and Hawkins drive the north south road

3:53:41internal road conceptually aligns with 1888 Gordon street the development is designed to be pedestrian

3:53:48friendly an active space encouraging walking and cycling if I could have just a couple more minutes

3:53:53just to finish unfortunately I can't allow you to do that I'm sorry I would have to sort of

3:54:02maybe some of the questions that come from my colleagues might hold out what's in your

3:54:06in your presentation but I just have to kind of none of them stay the course okay but but hey

3:54:12we got the just a bit for sure so we do appreciate that let me see if there's any questions right

3:54:17away I did see a hand go up somewhere goller and then alt please thank you through your worship

3:54:25to the elegant thank you for your presentation I'm looking at the the ground floor image could you

3:54:31help me understand the the traffic layout and we have the the main access road but there's the

3:54:40pedestrian walk could you just describe what the traffic globe would look like for for this area

3:54:47yeah so the main there's an east west access that's located just parallel to Claire road within the

3:54:56site then there is a north south access that that intersects with that internal east west road

3:55:05that that north south access is to act as a one-earth which focuses more of pedestrians

3:55:13you see things like that at university campuses I've seen developments like this where you have

3:55:1914 story or 10 12 14 I've seen 18 20 stories in Montreal where you have this synergy of walkability

3:55:28and cars just go very slowly if they use that space but typically what you'll find is that it's

3:55:34the east west access that accesses the underground garages and the loading spaces are located further

3:55:41to the north end so that that one-earth can really function as more of a pedestrian priority access

3:55:47point okay okay I appreciate that now with regards to your comments about the the the theater

3:55:56only being built over if they no longer use it what would the facing of this look like then

3:56:01would you start on the on the block that is closest to to Claire road

3:56:09so there's you heard it from other presentations there's various factors in terms of phasing

3:56:15phasing in this instance hasn't really been determined what we're trying to do here is get

3:56:20the zoning in place because it does take some time to get zoning in place should in the case be that

3:56:27some of the existing tenants decide not to renew their leases or extend their leases

3:56:32then we would be looking at potentially phasing the development in an orderly fashion but there's

3:56:37no preconceived plan of how of how that would be achieved okay okay no I I appreciate that

3:56:45another question if I could through your worship yeah with with regards to the public amenity space

3:56:54I noticed that some of them are almost a but the the park how how would that work if you have the

3:57:00amenity space for the building right next to to the park would there be a you know what it just be

3:57:07public space that the public is using or would those areas be you know isolated for the residents

3:57:13in those buildings to use the the idea is that it creates this synergistic approach to the public

3:57:20space from the private amenity space there isn't a plan to fence it off it would be the idea is

3:57:27that that amenity space is really for the residents but it's shared with the public space so when you

3:57:31factor that in it creates the seamless impression that anyone can go wherever and it creates almost

3:57:38a larger space for the general area that that they can utilize okay thank you very much for that

3:57:45those are my questions thank you worship no problem thank you alt please

3:57:51thank you mayor Guthrie um I appreciate this and I think that I'm actually teeing up

3:57:57councillor chewed us and questions as well maybe just to stop um I was through you to the delegate

3:58:04I was wondering for the benefit of people who are unfamiliar with the winter what it is what

3:58:10its purpose how does it conform to active transit it's not a sidewalk it's not a trail it's not a

3:58:16road it's not a ball it's a winter and I know about them because I lived in delft where they were

3:58:21developed but if you could please uh talk about the advantages and why this matters um so and I might

3:58:32ask BA group to come up and assist me with this but um my experience with one or is that they are

3:58:39located um they're not public roads the in this instance it's a private road um and the idea is

3:58:47that it allows for oftentimes what you see is um developments are very automobile oriented and

3:58:55automobile centric uh this is a way of balancing um balancing the the ability for people to have

3:59:04an urban environment because this is an urban development um whereby they can utilize it for

3:59:12for walking for cycling and that instance for those instances and at the same time still have it used

3:59:20functionally um should should there be a need for um management or things of that nature which

3:59:27will go up the street in a very slow manner um I see BA groups up here too maybe perhaps they can

3:59:33add to that absolutely um yeah I think a lot of the key points that Oz had kind of touched on there

3:59:41are definitely true um if I were to describe it succinctly it's essentially a flexible space

3:59:47that is really geared towards all modes of travel um so you know you're not delineating

3:59:52different spaces for different users it's really meant to kind of accommodate all users

3:59:57and what this does is it encourages people you know if you are for example do end up driving on

4:00:03that space to be paying attention you're going to be traveling slowly in many cases it actually

4:00:07discourages uh vehicular activity uh on those connections because there are you know other

4:00:12modes kind of using that space um it's really designed to be a seamless kind of connective

4:00:17space between kind of you know pedestrian cyclists and vehicles uh not a primary vehicular access

4:00:26point and those primary vehicle accesses would be located on the east west

4:00:31service street which are serviced by Farley Drive extension and Huckins Drive

4:00:36and if I'm correct we are not as familiar with them in North America as Europeans are where

4:00:42they're far more commonplace now is that correct uh yes that is correct they are generally much more

4:00:50common in in uh Europe and then there are you know they are certainly an emerging um kind of

4:00:57mobility space uh in urban areas um particularly where I have higher densities mixes of uses

4:01:03they provide you know kind of strong connectivity uh for active uses while also providing some of

4:01:08the necessary vehicular circulation on an as-needed basis but they really are geared towards

4:01:13um kind of active connections uh generally thank you okay I don't see anybody else for the applicant

4:01:31and team so I'm going to say thank you thank you thank you for clearing up a lot by the way I just

4:01:40I appreciated how you went through your presentation personally like this is what we have this is what

4:01:45we heard I I liked I liked that format and I appreciate you on the second part of your

4:01:51presentation getting at some of the stuff that you heard I actually heard some answers back to

4:01:55some of the questions we did have there a month or two ago when you were here when were you here

4:01:59like a month ago um I think it was just over a month ago yeah that's pretty fast eh make sure you

4:02:04tell your friends about how fast our planners are all right okay thank you very much I'm going to go

4:02:11back to staff but before I do is there anyone that would be willing to move the recommendation

4:02:17that is ahead of us I don't know if the ward six counselors would like to do that it's in their

4:02:21ward yeah is that okay yeah okay how's our and chew we'll we'll move the recommendations

4:02:29for approval okay and uh questions to staff down did you have a question to staff no

4:02:35chew did you have a question for staff yep okay go ahead thank you through you mr mayor

4:02:41I'm not going to ask all the questions I sent through email but I just want to just put out

4:02:47there that there are a lot of people out there that are concerned about the Wooner of access

4:02:53not with the Wooner of itself but just with the access towards poppy I was just wondering um when

4:02:59staff were doing the review and the comments um did they did did you guys consider maybe keeping

4:03:10that access as like a one-way only or or just restricting it for service only okay you kind of

4:03:18just walk me through how you concluded that this would be adequate uh for the this proposal here

4:03:30to mr. Mayor to councillor chew so like this application has been like multiple pre-submissions

4:03:36and a formal application so this access was reviewed by our traffic engineering staffs at various

4:03:43submissions and it has been confirmed that it meets our dm requirements and in terms of like

4:03:50accessing like you know as this was brought up in the public meeting it was discussed after that

4:03:55so at the site plan state it can be determined like you know with more technical details those

4:04:01that can be determined how we can keep that access more control for only you know servicing or

4:04:07emergency vehicles with any other traffic calming measures to you know discourage the vehicular

4:04:11traffic on that and yeah like at the site plan state it will be where we have more enforceable

4:04:16measures permitted through approval process that's the staff recommendation to be reviewed at that

4:04:22stage okay um I just need to know um and I'm trying not to get into site specific details

4:04:32but there is an overwhelming amount of people that have reached out to me since the public meeting

4:04:39indicating that they feel especially within towers one two and three of goren square that this

4:04:47access in private particular at this present time uh could be problematic because there are already a

4:04:55lot of issues during peak hours when it comes to waste um when it comes to school pick up and

4:05:01drop offs and we can only foresee that poppy drive is going to be um more busy with the buildout of

4:05:09the rec center and with the full extension of poppy drive and for me my issue is I feel like this

4:05:15the access itself not the street is redundant because you have hawkins and you have farley

4:05:22so I'm wondering if we were to table an amendment to provide uh some some suggestion to staff

4:05:33to take this away um is that something that could be worked on that is that something that you

4:05:41guys can work around through the mayor to the councillor so I guess first off I have to say that

4:05:48this is a rezoning application and we don't have detailed designs it's clearly labeled in the report

4:05:53that this is a concept plan so and I believe when they were at the public meeting last month they

4:05:58didn't have a timeline on when this would be built so at this point I believe it's premature to make

4:06:03those site specific recommendations when it does come through site plan um and in the you know

4:06:08traffic review comments it said through detailed design we'll take a look at it further but we

4:06:13also have to look at good engineering practices and it's not always ideal to offset or not line

4:06:18up driveways as well so I think we'll take a look at it detailed design but really focus on the

4:06:24zoning tonight and at the site plan stage we'll we'll consider it but we as we heard last last

4:06:30month we do not have a time timeline when this will come forward yeah and and through you Mr.

4:06:35Mayor I just want to respect that as well because I know right now the plans are quite preliminary

4:06:39in high level having said this is not going to come back to us anytime soon right and yeah exactly

4:06:48and with that and under the assumption that this the site is going to be built out more or less

4:06:54the same way with the Woonerfin place as the one of the underlying concepts like how can we

4:07:03make how are we able to ensure that some of the spirit of the feedback that's received tonight

4:07:11and in the last meeting it's kind of being captured like I think people are looking for

4:07:16some reassurances and there's an opportunity right now to do that so and then again I'm trying to be

4:07:22gentle with providing direction but I just feel like I have a duty to make sure that these comments

4:07:29are being satisfied because a lot of people are looking at these plans and they think okay there's

4:07:35some issues right now with it and it's quite and the issues are quite obvious and glaring

4:07:42at least from our perspective so I guess is there a way to kind of satisfy you know both sides here

4:07:50through the mayor and the councillor so Poppy Drive is identified as a collector road so it is

4:07:55intended to carry carry traffic to Gordon Niclare so that is the purpose of Poppy Drive obviously

4:08:03when they they move forward with a development of application the next phase a site plan and then

4:08:10potentially condominium depending on time I will be looking at a full TIS and we'll look at traffic

4:08:16volumes and identify or if there's any traffic related concerns at this time but we don't have

4:08:23we don't have a timeline and we don't have any doubt those determinations at this point in time

4:08:30maybe I can make maybe I can make a suggestion a little bit on the fly but maybe what I would do

4:08:36sir I'm sorry I'm making this up on the fly but I'm just trying to help maybe what we could do is

4:08:42we could we could vote on the motions to potentially council will have council to approve what's here

4:08:50and get that like done and then as a separate motion completely separate from the approval

4:08:56you could move a motion we've done this before in the past a couple of times where

4:09:04do you remember do you remember many of you on council do you remember when we had

4:09:08everyone remember when Nestle had to come forward to us a couple times for the water certificate

4:09:15the water taking certificate updates and what we did is we passed a motion at the end of the meeting

4:09:21that said something to the effect of and the feedback that was collected through the delegations

4:09:29and the application process be included for future consideration and it was sent to the province and

4:09:35stuff like that so maybe that might satisfy you councillor chew that we could like look to approve

4:09:40this and get get it approved and it's done and then a follow-up motion could be something to the

4:09:46effect of and that and that council respectfully requests that the feedback making it up here on

4:09:54the fly but that the feedback through the council you know through the through the zoning process

4:10:01be captured and reflective for further consideration within site plan in the future period and then

4:10:08that satisfies because I understand like as a councillor I told I totally respect that like

4:10:13as a councillor you want to you want to show go back and say like hey I heard you I took the

4:10:18my concerns on your behalf to council I had a motion that was passed and does that

4:10:24does that help a little bit on the on the on the staffing side I don't want to I don't want to wreck

4:10:30anything but I'm just trying to to balance where we can go on this yeah through the mayor it's

4:10:37certainly not typical um you know obviously if counts council puts that motion forward staff

4:10:42will abide by it I will not meet my time we timelines for site plan approval so I will put

4:10:46that out there if that is a if that is an issue um but we'll we'll allow council to the will of council

4:10:55and that you know I obviously support what we've heard from councillor chew and we do have

4:10:59recommendations in there for full review at TI at the time of site plan so um I you know from

4:11:06staff's perspective that is the appropriate time to look at it at the technical level but if council

4:11:11wants to do something else then we'll let that go forward I don't think I think the commentary

4:11:24that's been stated is captured already by staff it's also on the public record right like it's

4:11:29it's clear but if you want to try to you know encapsulate that into emotion that that doesn't

4:11:37wreck the site plan it doesn't like you can't you can't do that um but it's it's like a nudge in the

4:11:44future for a reminder to staff that that the conversation took place I mean that might be

4:11:49something to satisfy you and your residents yeah through you mr. mayor I do have an amendment that

4:11:55can be put in as part of the existing recommend list of recommendations but taking some of your

4:12:02comments away perhaps I could take that recommendation that I have in the email but also add in be

4:12:10considered for future consideration that that way staff have some latitude to work with and to assess

4:12:16as well based on your judgment at site plan whether this is worth its weight and its merits

4:12:23so I'm really trying to make sure we can focus and get this done um can I just ask do you have

4:12:29two things then I'm not I'm a little bit confused do you have an actual amendment to what's on the

4:12:35floor right now and a separate one like you just are talking about or do you have one issue that

4:12:40you want to bring forward I just want to make sure I understand so I'm going to look to Dylan

4:12:45because he has that amendment that's ready to go okay so I'm I'm not quite sure what's happening

4:12:51right now but it's okay we'll wait through it can you put up on the screen then what

4:12:58mr. mayor so we'll display what was sent in but noting that it's not moved or seconded yet

4:13:03no no I know so so is is is the is the bolded part your amendment yeah and everything else is

4:13:16is the same yeah but through you mr. mayor if I may like I'd be happy to add in the end with a

4:13:24comma be considered for future consideration okay so I'm just going to put I'm just going to play

4:13:33the rules really strict here is there a seconder for that you're seconding that amendment

4:13:42okay councillor Goller is seconding that all right so I have a lot of concerns with that

4:13:51I'm just going to state that up front um but councillor alti you go first thank you mayor Guthrie

4:13:58and through you to you I equally have the concerns about that and my concerns relate to the

4:14:05responsibilities professional responsibilities of staff and I would like to hear from staff

4:14:11about that because I've heard very clearly that you can entertain concerns like this

4:14:17as site plan so um I need to hear from you about this one this one's probably thank you

4:14:31through the mayor to the councillor so I think we've we've definitely heard it

4:14:35in the staff review and summary they're in the traffic section it already indicates that we'll

4:14:39be looking for a revised TIS and information as we go forward for it from a site plan perspective

4:14:46staff feel satisfied that they'll take a look at it and the professional engineers in the city

4:14:51which you know we didn't expect to have here this this evening we'll we'll do their job and

4:14:56their due diligence to ensure that any accesses are safe and and represent the community is appropriate

4:15:04thank you very much and with that I cannot support the amendment um I've heard loudly and

4:15:08clearly that staff and their professional judgment will assess what is necessary and is appropriate

4:15:17so any other questions on this before I call the vote then no okay so my advice is to revert back

4:15:26to maybe the possibility of a separate motion that is outside of the approval process that can try to

4:15:33capture you know something something separate but not this is very this is in the weeds this is really

4:15:41in the weeds and it should should not be uh should not be endorsed in my in my opinion so I'll call

4:15:47the vote is anyone against the amendment please raise your hand okay um so hauser and

4:15:57karan and wasan and downer and guthrie and busitil and everyone on the screen

4:16:06alt katyn billings gibson so that does fail okay so do you want to try to do something

4:16:13councillor chude that was my idea just just yeah I think whatever would if you do if you do hold

4:16:19that thought then I'll come I'll come back to you if you don't mind sure I'd like to I'd like to wrap

4:16:24up the recommendations that are on the floor so that we can just approve that or or vote the way

4:16:29you want sorry vote the way you want okay so I'm going to call the vote on the motions that have

4:16:34come from from our staff okay is anyone against the approval of this applicant okay nobody that's

4:16:42unanimous so that part's done okay and um so can I can I help you with with that that separate one

4:16:49did you like sort of the wording that I had I understand I understand so um I don't know if

4:16:59the clerks were listening to me rhyme off sort of some high-level wording there before but

4:17:05something to the effect of that planning staff taken to consideration the feedback that was

4:17:12captured through the rezoning process for future consideration here that the feedback provided

4:17:31through the zoning bylaw amendment process being included and considered during the site plan

4:17:34approval process for one clear road east that sounds good to me councillor chude how about you

4:17:40move it to make sure that you're on the record for it all right how's her sticking with ward six

4:17:48okay I'm going to call the vote on that everybody is that okay okay is anyone against that additional

4:17:54motion nobody that's unanimous okay thank you councillor chude and thank you to the applicants

4:18:01thank you for answering as I said some of those questions that were lingering I especially liked

4:18:07the math that you did on the commercial square footage before to next it's actually

4:18:12five six thousand seven thousand more um other than the the

4:18:18movie theater I saw Tron there last week it's quite a good movie everybody by the way

4:18:24uh so thank you very much okay um we are going to the bylaws

4:18:32and um I'm going to councillor Klassen please to look to move the bylaws for us thank you

4:18:38thank you yep thank you mr. mayor um that bylaws uh I moved that bylaws 2025 21 140

4:18:47through to 21 143 uh 21 1 1 5 2 and 21 1 5 4 through to 21 1 5 7 be approved subject to section

4:18:58284.1 1 4 of the municipal act thank you I think it's been seconded by downer as well so thank you

4:19:06anything on the bylaws anybody no okay I'll call the vote on that as anyone against the bylaws

4:19:14nobody I do have a very quick announcement and I just forgot it right outside the doors here so you

4:19:22got to count okay Leanne why don't you go ahead with your ward announcement and I will be right

4:19:30sure why don't you go do your thing and we will officially announce busatil will chair for 20 seconds

4:19:36okay ward five is having a town hall on uh October 21st that's a Tuesday evening at arbor

4:19:44vista public school uh we have a guest speaker uh Stacy from our downtown office we'll be talking

4:19:52about all the plans that we have uh coming for downtown over the next two years and as usual

4:19:58counselor downer and myself will be available for an open q and a so bring your questions ask us

4:20:03anything and we're happy to see you there again Tuesday October 21st. Council Coran can you just

4:20:10uh where where the location is uh arbor vista public school on mccann drive uh on the on on the

4:20:20east southeast side of ward five in the library with a candlestick over to you mr. rare thank you

4:20:34council um and to the public this is our last meeting that we are having with our deputy

4:20:43ceo jane holmes and uh yeah let's clap right away come on up here that's right as she's coming

4:20:58i definitely know i'm speaking on behalf of everyone here how amazing you are jane and uh

4:21:06you've been just a pleasure to work with and i've heard nothing but positivity from the

4:21:11development and planning community get over here in the middle and um we we are good to really miss

4:21:19you uh a lot you've done such great work here and uh we're you know where you're going is going to be

4:21:25very lucky uh so we just wish you all the very best this is on behalf of council thank you and

4:21:32let's give her another round of applause so um with that i think uh sorry did did you want to

4:21:50say anything for ceo no i'm sorry i saw you standing by the microphones i didn't know if you

4:21:56wanted to say something uh well i i didn't plan anything but just to echo uh what you just said

4:22:03mr. mayor um thank you so much for uh for taking this moment uh tonight thank you yeah yeah perfect

4:22:11jane thank you very much you would like to say something oh yeah i guess so yeah i just wanted

4:22:18to thank you for that and um i just want to say that uh the last four and a half years have been

4:22:24really great um i've worked for a few councils and and i did say it in my email to you so i'll

4:22:28say it out loud in public that this has been one of my favorite councils to work with and and yes

4:22:33you are one of my favorite mayors so i i just want to say that out loud because we've worked on a lot

4:22:39of really interesting projects together and um there's still some stuff that's out there that's

4:22:45really big and you've got great staff here and i've had great colleagues and i just want to

4:22:49say how much i appreciate that i will miss you and i will keep an eye on guelph because you're

4:22:54doing a lot of really great exciting things so thank you thank you very much especially apart

4:23:04just read the part about the mayor all right um we're going to go to adjournment then please and

4:23:12boost atil will help us with that and how about uh katin you want to second that kate all right

4:23:17perfect uh is anyone against adjournment no and this is where councillor Allt says go blue jays go

4:23:28i can do that go blue jays go all right everyone have a good night thank you so much bye bye