Report 2025-443 from Planning and Building Services, dated October 15, 2025, regarding the draft Downtown Heritage Conservation District Plan and Guidelines be received.

35:46heritage conservation district now this is a draft plan in fact there's a few things on here today

35:52that are draft and they're receive only so this is this opportunity we're going to have a presentation

35:59on the matter we actually have a delegation on this one as well and then we can give feedback to

36:06to staff and what they hear they can kind of take away because it's at a draft stage right now no

36:12decisions are being made so we appreciate everyone being involved in this with that I will turn it

36:19over to staff to start us off with the presentation great good afternoon Mayor Guthrie members of

36:28council senior staff and the members of the public that have joined us this afternoon to discuss the

36:33draft downtown heritage conservation district planning guidelines this meeting will serve as the

36:38public meeting under section 41.1 of the Ontario Heritage Act I'm Imogen Goldie the city's project

36:45manager for this conservation district project now heritage conservation districts have been used

36:50effectively on Ontario since 1980 and by Guelph with the Brooklyn and College Hill Heritage

36:55Conservation District since it was adopted in 2014 heritage conservation conservation districts

37:01are a proven approach to both determining and conserving areas with cohesive cultural heritage

37:07characteristics for example the structures continuous street walls and architectural features

37:13made of distinct locally quarried Guelph limestone in the city's core heritage protections offered

37:19the intangible emotional benefits that come from maintaining community identity in a strong sense

37:23of place often referred to by visitors to our open houses as wealthiness they offer environmental

37:30benefits through the reduction of construction waste and its associated impacts heritage protections

37:35also offer economic benefits through opportunities for heritage tourism specialized in skilled trades

37:41and as shown most recently in a 2023 report prepared for the city of Hamilton's planning and

37:46economic development department there is a growing consensus on the positive impacts of

37:51individual and district heritage designations on property values now in service of the potential

37:57district coming into force and in response to increased messages from the public around

38:01ensuring their heritage homes heritage planning staff have taken several steps to support heritage

38:06and potential heritage property owners including ongoing conversations with the insurance bureau of

38:12Canada and insurance brokers and providers in the region to help dispel myths and misuse me

38:17misunderstandings heritage planning staff have compiled a list of heritage friendly insurers

38:22as a resource available on the city's heritage planning website new language has also been

38:27developed by staff for our heritage designation bylaws to outline insurance provider obligations

38:32in the case of partial or total loss of a heritage asset that same language is being offered to

38:37property owners in letters of support to provide existing or new insurance providers

38:43initiation of a heritage conservation district study for the downtown was identified as a priority

38:48in the cultural heritage action plan due to the desire of the local community to maintain the

38:53heritage character of the area and not to discourage slower stop growth or change but to manage that

38:58change in a heritage sensitive manner after retaining archaeological services Inc or ASI

39:04earlier in the year the study phase of the project was initiated in June 2023 in September 2024

39:11the study and proposed boundary for the downtown heritage conservation district was approved and

39:16staff were directed to move on to phase two the preparation of the planning guidelines to help

39:21manage the expected change in the core I'm pleased to be joined today by two members of the consulting

39:27team I have with me Rebecca Shara principal in charge and consultant project manager with ASI

39:33and I have Matt Reed principal planning and policy and the managing director with FOTEN planning

39:39and design I'm going to turn the presentation over to Rebecca to get things started and I

39:43thank you for having us this evening good afternoon thank you for having us here this afternoon we

40:07have prepared a 10 minute presentation between myself for Becca Shara and Matt Reed from FOTEN

40:13I want to first start with a quick refresh of what the downtown Guelph heritage conservation

40:19district plan is a formal heritage district in the downtown is being recommended under the Ontario

40:26Heritage Act the goal of this district is to create a sense a heritage sensitive plan to

40:32guide the future development that is expected in the downtown simply put the district plan

40:37recognizes and is embracing the growth that will come to the downtown and its key objective is to

40:45ensure that in 10 to 20 years time the downtown is thriving and denser but also fully recognizable

40:52and defined by its historic ambience and character almost a year ago city council directed staff to

41:02begin preparing a planning document for the downtown heritage district the plan focuses on

41:08the area shown here it covers the original historic downtown and the network of streets

41:14that were first laid out here in 1827 this area has a collection of historic buildings

41:21that tell the story of the downtown's beginnings and its ongoing and current importance as the

41:26commercial core of the city those buildings are shown in green here and called contributing properties

41:33in the plan document most of these properties and their buildings date to between to between 1827

41:40to 1935 the area also contains a collection of parks and public realm features like Market Square

41:49the trails along the water and the streets themselves arranged to radiate out from the bend

41:55in the Speed River over the last two years this project has had a robust engagement program

42:04in 2023 and 2024 when we were in the study phase a series of open houses meetings and

42:11workshops were held with Heritage Guelph the public and where property owners within the proposed

42:18boundary were invited interested indigenous communities a project specific focus group

42:24and the downtown guelph business association over the past year while working on the plan

42:32phase of the project we have continued to work with and engage these various groups we have

42:38held two public open houses had workshops with the project specific focus group met with the

42:43downtown guelph business association and at these sessions we have shared in progress work and content

42:50and information we have received input and feedback and we have used these outputs to shape the content

42:57that is presented in the draft downtown guelph district plan that is before you today whenever

43:06we work on conservation district plans in various places across Ontario the how or the implementation

43:13of it is always most important to everyone from property owners to council to residents as well

43:20as other stakeholders and that is why i want to first touch on how heritage permits would work in

43:26the proposed district heritage permits are the key way that the city the key tool that the city uses

43:33to implement the plan i want to clarify a few key aspects about heritage permits and how they work

43:40this is important because people often think that a district starts requiring detailed review

43:47of every little change to a building that it will require buildings if lost to fire for example to

43:54be rebuilt exactly as they look today or that a district plan will stifle creativity this is not

44:02the case with the proposed downtown heritage plan for example permits are not required for

44:10changes to the interior of properties also changes such as repairs or replacements to the exterior

44:17of a contributing property are exempt from a permit if those changes maintain the existing

44:24appearance of the property by using similar materials and colors repairs like installing

44:30or replacing eaves troughs or downpipes are also exempt from permits a minor permit may be required

44:38for some small-scale activities like replacements and additions of exterior building elements

44:43with different materials on contributing buildings such as introduction of new windows that use

44:49different materials or colors than existing these types of changes go through a process of permitting

44:55at the staff level and are on average processed in 10 to 15 days a major permit would be required

45:03for something pretty substantial like picking up a building and moving it or altering an exterior

45:11building element for example introducing a bunch of new window openings on the front elevation

45:18of an important heritage building a major permit would also be required where demolitions are proposed

45:24or a brand new building is proposed the idea here is that full removal of a heritage building

45:32and new building projects are reviewed to ensure they positively and compatibly contribute to the

45:39historic character of the downtown district these kinds of changes can be dramatic and therefore

45:45have potential to affect the heritage quality of the districts and therefore require a conversation

45:55over the last year we have had a series of engagement events and received lots of very

45:59good feedback and from those discussions we have heard that everyone wants clarity on any new

46:05requirements that property owners should expect from the district plan to that end the district plan

46:11documents and clarifies several really important things that are key for property owners the plan

46:19confirms that heritage permits required within the district for example have no cost associated

46:25with them it also clarifies timelines providing certainty the plan also clarifies and confirms

46:33important information to insurance providers the plan assures property owners and their insurers

46:40that replacement and reconstruction of buildings and their heritage features is not required in the

46:46event of total or partial loss this clarification has been received with very positive feedback

46:52from select insurers that staff have been consulting with on this very topic i now want to give a

47:10sampling of some of the policies and guidelines that are presented in the downtown heritage

47:14district plan first though i want to run through some highlights for everyone here today and also

47:21listening before i turn it over to my colleague matt to walk through some examples of the kinds of

47:26new buildings and developments and additions in the downtown that would be welcomed and encouraged

47:33in the downtown district so to start off in the plan you see policies and guidelines these are

47:40different policies are mandatory while guidelines are discretionary and the words associated with

47:46each matter policies use words like shall while guidelines use words like encourage

47:53policies set requirements while guidelines present best practices but are not mandatory

47:59this is an important distinction as an example the plan does not require through policy that

48:05property owners repair exterior elements instead it gives key policies to guide introduction of good

48:13compatible additions and alterations the guidelines do discourage removals and replacements of

48:19exterior heritage building elements but also recognizes that repairs might not always be possible

48:27the plan also emphasizes that alterations additions and new development are permitted

48:34and they are they should be sympathetic to and support the heritage values of the district

48:39additionally policies and guidelines have no impact on building use it does not govern how a

48:44building can be used and policies and guidelines do not apply to building interiors some other

48:52highlights include that owners of contributing properties are encouraged not required to replace

48:58heritage attributes in kind understanding what is mandatory and discretionary discretionary

49:05is extremely important to understand the implications of the plan i will now turn to matt

49:11to walk us through some of the key policies and guidelines presented in the plan

49:24thank you rebecca and thank you mayor guthrie and members of council for having us here today

49:30so in rebecca's presentation she talked uh high level about the process that we've been through to

49:35dates and about the policies and the guidelines and um i'm going to zoom in a little bit further

49:45in my part of the presentation and focus on a couple specific sites that should be generally

49:50familiar to people here tonight to help understand how the guidelines and policies can actually

49:56apply on the ground so we're going to look at examples of how the policies and guidelines

50:06can work on both uh the contributing properties that rebecca mentioned as well as non-contributing

50:11properties and how new development can still occur within the downtown without undermining the

50:17heritage attribute attributes identified in the plan and the attributes that that uh make

50:24gulf special and make gulf downtown gulf uh what it is so when i talk about intensification um i

50:32think it's important to note first that intensification is any sort of new development on vacant or

50:39underutilized sites in the downtown and we'll see some examples of both of these but this could be

50:44both new development just uh you know a parking lot for example that's just being redeveloped

50:49but again because we're in a downtown context and growth is expected and anticipated it's also

50:55important to note that intensification includes underutilized sites so it might be a two-story

51:01building for example where the existing or emerging policies permit greater heights and densities so

51:07this would be an example and we'll see this uh shortly so we're presenting two sites today and

51:14you'll see some examples like this throughout the hcd document as well and again just showing how

51:20some of these guidelines and policies apply and i think it's important to note tonight as well that

51:24these are just for demonstration purposes only they're not representative of any proposed development

51:30or anything like that just to show how the guidelines and the policies apply so the first example that

51:35we'll look at is is at uh windham and mcdonnell street and this is a good example of a redevelopment

51:43of what could be seen as an underutilized site but the key thing to note here is we've got the

51:49green buildings which as rebecca showed are your contributing properties and then the yellow

51:54buildings which would represent new development so in this case we've got an addition to an existing

52:00contributing property and i think it's also important to note we've got contributing properties

52:05directly adjacent to this development as well so we want to think about both of those as redevelopment

52:11is occurring so when we talk about sort of at the policy level and that shell language some of the

52:17stuff that would come up in the guidelines and the policies um in an example like this would be

52:23policies to sort of protect the integrity of that existing building for example so policies

52:30like um substantial portions of existing contributing properties shall be maintained for

52:38example um where additional height is identified as permissible step backs should be provided above

52:47the established building to again sort of protect the features of that building the features that

52:56make that building special so again we're not talking about just retaining the facades we're

53:00talking about retaining roof structures and other elements of the buildings as well that really

53:05helped to make it stand out and then similarly in examples like this again because we have

53:16new development going on top of existing development but adjacent to other contributing

53:21properties we want to just start looking at general best practices as well so you'll see

53:25things that we've done here to transition to those adjacent properties as well so for example as you

53:32go up towards the top of the building we've got additional step backs in the massing and this

53:37does a couple of things so for those adjacent contributing properties it creates a bit of a

53:42transition both in height but also helps to mitigate things like shadow impacts or anything that could

53:47undermine that heritage or character of the contributing property as a pedestrian from the

53:53street level it serves another purpose in that it helps to reduce the overall massing of the

53:58building as well and it creates it sort of creates a definition between the base of the building so

54:04the green existing component the new middle piece and the top as well so again as a pedestrian on

54:10the street this creates a more interesting and and attractive skyline yeah i don't want to push

54:28multiple times and have it skip ahead but send me just wasn't aiming right thank you

54:38the second example that we'll look at is an example where you can see on the context here so now we're

54:43at uh yarmouth street just between yarmouth and baker and you'll see an example here next to the

54:49children's art factory and this example is one where we have a site that would be again like an

54:54underutilized site so a single story building where you've got lots of height along yarmouth street

54:58as well you've got the baker district behind so lots of height in the area and then you've got

55:03this one story building that is not a contributing property and again i think important to note on

55:07the map you'll see here that it's it's fully surrounded however by existing contributing

55:12properties the green buildings so in this case what we would be looking at because we're not trying

55:21to preserve any sort of existing building this would represent like a full redevelopment of the

55:25site this is a good example where you start to see some differentiation i think between the policies

55:31and the guidelines so in this case you'd be looking at policies having language such as you

55:36know the building shall be located at the street and it shall be oriented to address the streetscape

55:41so some of those kind of big picture pieces to make sure your building's in the right place

55:46in this case however the guidelines will kind of come in to play to provide a little bit of

55:52additional flexibility so whereas the policies would say buildings shall be located along the

55:57street the guidelines would say that you should generally maintain the established setback so this

56:02would be the location of the two green buildings that are directly adjacent to our new development

56:08but why we have the guidelines and that sort of flexibility in that should language is that

56:12this presents an opportunity to you'll see in this diagram we've actually pushed the yellow

56:19building back a little bit further because this one creates a bit of a wider streetscape for

56:24pedestrians but i think more importantly it actually sets the building back behind the

56:28existing children's art factory building which allows that building the green contributing

56:33property in the historic building to kind of continue to stand on its own amongst new development

56:38and and so new development doesn't kind of block views or sort of overshadow this building

56:44and you can see similar with the smaller building kind of above it in the diagram as well and in

56:49this case you might even want to start kind of chopping back parts of that building to actually

56:54allow more views to that building and a little more breathing room for that building as well

56:59and then again like the previous example you'll see that the guidelines in this case

57:04start to provide guidance for this building and how it should sort of perform along the streets so

57:09again we see that three-story podium height uh along yarmouth street and then the step back again

57:15so that three-story podium maintains a consistent street wall with the established contributing

57:20properties or the green buildings and then that step back above as a pedestrian creates kind of a

57:26feeling of a three-story building helps to reduce the mass of the building and then again like the

57:31previous example you see we're defining a clear base three-story base and podium of the building

57:37a distinguished middle section of the building and then again as you get to the top it's about

57:41providing additional step backs again and this is both on the Baker street side and the Yarmouth

57:47street side providing those additional step backs to again create kind of a clear base middle and

57:53top create a more attractive skyline for new developments and just help to kind of sculpt

58:00that building in a way that helps it to fit well within the established contributing properties

58:07back to you for that thank you Matt and that brings us to the end of our presentation

58:21in terms of next steps will be to integrate any feedback received at this session

58:27and any other engagement sessions that have been held over the last month

58:31as appropriate into the final HCD plan document the final HCD plan is expected to come before

58:38council in January 2026 where council will make a decision at that time about whether to proceed

58:44with designation and preparation of the implementing bylaw thank you for your time mayor Guthrie and

58:50council well thank you for the presentation and walking us through that really appreciate it

58:57but we do have one delegation who's joined us tonight so I think I'd like to to go to to that

59:03right away and so if I could have uh Christopher Pesan come on up to the microphone and thank you

59:15Chris um and uh you know my apologies is this a 10 minute one as well I think it is right yeah

59:21so you have up to 10 minutes Chris um you'll hear a chime at the nine minute 30 second mark as a

59:27warning that you only have 30 seconds left if you need it and then once you're done if you want us to

59:32stick around just in case myself or my colleagues have any questions as a follow-up that'd be great

59:37other than that thank you for coming the floor is yours well thank you uh mayor Guthrie it's nice to

59:44see you and uh counselors and uh city staff and the advisors and the rest of the people in the room

59:51I just uh would like to say it's a privilege to be here this is one of the things I appreciate about

59:56our city and our democracy that we get to have these conversations so uh I would like to start with

1:00:02I am here neither as friend nor foe I'm here as somebody that just wants to talk a little bit about

1:00:11the best of intentions that have unintended consequences and um I have a few points that I

1:00:18want to address and I I merely bring this up for council to uh to think about these things when

1:00:25you're making the decision on whether or not to move forward with this proposal so first off

1:00:32the original boundaries of this proposed district were enlarged based on one person's opinion

1:00:41and and when I say that I mean there was one person who lived outside of that original

1:00:46boundary who contacted somebody with either the city or at one of these meetings and suggested that

1:00:54the boundaries be extended and I know that they had a bias because they are members of the historical

1:01:02um group for Guelph and um I just feel like if one person gets to approach somebody either on city

1:01:11staff or some of the advisors that perhaps the rest of the homeowners in or the property owners

1:01:18and the rest of this new proposed enlarged area could have also had a say and and maybe a vote on

1:01:25something like that um so essentially there was some inherent bias in that person's suggestion

1:01:33and they don't live in the area they don't own property in the area and they're not

1:01:37impacted by this in any way whereas there are several homeowners or property owners who are

1:01:44second point I talked about unintended consequences I I find that there there's often even more

1:01:51unintended consequences when there's a rush to push something through because the door is closing

1:01:58and I know that the Ontario government is proposing that some changes get made anyway what seems to

1:02:05be a great idea ends up causing more problems than the intended benefits and whether the changes

1:02:10the province is proposing um have anything to do with this or not I'm just here to outline a few

1:02:17potential unintended consequences firstly as somebody who arranged over 3000 mortgages on

1:02:24properties in this city I can tell you without a doubt that there will be impacts on people

1:02:31who want to get mortgages on the properties who will be part of this heritage district or this

1:02:38proposed heritage district every time that I had to arrange a mortgage on a house that was either in a

1:02:45on a heritage registry or a part of a heritage district or it had a designation it always

1:02:52became a problem for the homeowner or the potential buyer and as much as my esteemed

1:02:59colleagues here my advisors for the city are going to tell you that it doesn't I am here to tell you

1:03:06firsthand that I've seen this problem for homeowners it shrinks the potential supply

1:03:12of where they can get their mortgage from and that only means one thing to them it increases their

1:03:18interest rates which means it increases their costs secondly the Heritage Act may require

1:03:26additional permits for owners in this prop in this heritage district and perhaps right now there's

1:03:33not going to be any fees but generally any but anytime you need to get a permit from the city

1:03:39there are some kind of fees associated with that so whether there's zero fee right now

1:03:45I believe that in the future there probably will be and that's an additional cost to the landowner

1:03:51there are other compliance costs so if if for some reason you do need to hire a consultant

1:03:58I don't know very many of them that won't pick up a pen for less than a thousand dollars

1:04:03so if you need to at least consider that type of an impact on the property owners

1:04:09in this proposed heritage district there are limited renovation flexibility and and I love the I

1:04:19love that the consultants talk about there's there's the outshelt knot and then there are guidelines

1:04:27where you know it's it's what were the words that were used it's not mandatory versus discretionary

1:04:36well that's great if these people can live forever so right now I'm going to say Imogen

1:04:42and her colleague I want to say James Jim Jack sorry really nice people seem really down to earth

1:04:50you can have a good conversation with them but they're not going to be here forever they'll move on

1:04:56they'll get a new job like this is this is a reality of things and so if somebody can't guarantee

1:05:03what's you know discretionary today is not going to be mandatory tomorrow well that's

1:05:08fabulous I just think that you need more clarity about what you can and can't do guidelines are a

1:05:15little vague and if Imogen and Jack move on then I don't know what's going to happen and I don't

1:05:23have great comfort in that somebody talked about oh well energy efficiency issues if you can't renovate

1:05:32an old home the way you want to and sometimes it requires exterior doing something to the exterior

1:05:38there are issues with getting better efficiency from an energy efficiency standpoint

1:05:46any consideration given to property owners if the city is going to provide financial incentives for

1:05:53property owners in this proposed district will essentially mean higher taxes for our taxpayers

1:06:01and all of the council members here including the ones chatting over in the corner here

1:06:07you're going to have to vote on something that increases the taxes to taxpayers right and so

1:06:15I don't know that taxpayers across the city are going to want to fund a downtown heritage district

1:06:23think about that you're going to have to pay for it somehow and you shouldn't burden just the people

1:06:29in the district with having to cover all the increased costs that come with owning a property

1:06:35somebody mentioned today that market value of heritage homes they tend to sell on average more

1:06:44than what an average home would sell for so I've done the research the difference is marginal

1:06:501% it's it's either 0 or 1% so that's that's nothing so there really is no difference between

1:07:00what you can sell your house for if it's got a designation or not but I will say I could tell you

1:07:06because people have told me and I'm experiencing some difficulties when it comes to insurance I already

1:07:13and I have paperwork here that I can share with council my insurance was canceled on two of my

1:07:20properties downtown because they're on a registry what do you think's going to happen when they're

1:07:25part of a downtown heritage district that these folks are proposing they'll all get canceled

1:07:32and then I'll have to start over and the minute you have fewer suppliers the costs go up so I'm asking

1:07:39you can to consider these things I'm not saying that the downtown heritage district in and of itself

1:07:45is a bad thing it's just there's there are several unintended consequences so I talked about the insurance

1:07:54maintenance complexity goes up if you're looking for a mason to do work on a century home that's

1:08:02designated it will be more than if it's a century home normally you get to add a zero to things and

1:08:11I don't know about you but I feel like that's an an undue burden on the property owners downtown

1:08:19to have to deal with that so you talked about I mean there is a benefit there are specialized trades

1:08:25and standards that you know people can have better livelihood but people have to pay for that and

1:08:32that's going to come out of the property owners pockets so I don't want to ramble

1:08:40I did notice some other requirements with the proposal on page 192 of this massive 645 page

1:08:49document that all the counselors got to go through prior to this meeting and I hats off to you if you

1:08:54managed to read all of that folks um page 192 it talks about requirements related to transformers

1:09:03and utility boxes to keep the streetscape looking great well I don't know who's going to pay to move

1:09:08some of these boxes but I I'm pretty sure that the the utilities will be furious if they have to move

1:09:17some of these things and um I have a minute so I would argue that my properties and I'm going to

1:09:29submit this to my properties don't do anything for the streetscape I mean 150 years ago when

1:09:37Lorne would face the point I came back in Yarmouth maybe but the whole front yard has been taken up

1:09:43by other homes so yeah thank thank you Chris thank you for your presentation is there any follow-up at

1:09:51this time Chris just one second there might be a follow-up okay uh councillor Gibson has a question

1:09:57and I'm sorry Karan sorry sorry yeah yeah thank you through mr. mayor and thank you um Chris for

1:10:04coming today you're articulating many of the concerns I've heard as well and have expressed

1:10:08here before I wanted to dive in on the energy efficiency piece because obviously we can't

1:10:14do we can't have all the balls in the air trying to move everything forward while pulling them down

1:10:18as well we have a home energy tax credit in this city where we're offering a low-cost loans to improve

1:10:25the energy efficiency primarily on homes like this but then you run into a situation where a home has

1:10:31old stucco or old parging or old windows and your experience tells me that you're familiar a little

1:10:39but with this where you're having to go through a heritage planner or a heritage um committee for a

1:10:46permit or an approval to do sort of major upgrades to the energy efficiency of exterior walls things

1:10:52like that not interior but exterior and I heard you touch on that with in terms of energy efficiency

1:10:57and I think that dovetails well with what staff was telling us can you just expand on your experience

1:11:02or what you've heard in the community I guess with as mortgage renewal you're often getting

1:11:07new new mortgages from people to do upgrades like this to their homes

1:11:12thank you Dan um so to be uh for transparency I have not done it alone in 10 years I retired from

1:11:21the mortgage business 10 years ago um however um we range appraisal reports of new business I started

1:11:29across the country and historical properties are always a challenge as well when it comes to um

1:11:39valuation and we always hear from the mortgage people that there are issues when it comes to

1:11:45the um the energy efficiency counselor Gibson uh all I could tell you is what my research is

1:11:52shown me and um in my hours of research this popped up multiple times where people would

1:12:02suggest that or or different there are different um uh sources that would suggest that energy

1:12:10efficiency um sometimes goes in conflict with what's required under keeping a house exactly the way

1:12:17it is today that that's kind of the bottom line yeah I appreciate that I appreciate those comments

1:12:23thank you you're welcome thank you if I could go to um I think I had counselor Karan next and then

1:12:33caller sure thank you and thanks for your delegation mr Bisson um I know that you're

1:12:39speaking in general about heritage properties but the research that I've done has been very

1:12:46clear that certain conditions warrant certain mortgage or insurance and that those conditions

1:12:54aren't specifically related to heritage but more to old wiring or outdated heating systems

1:13:01or inefficient windows not specifically because a property is a certain age so I wonder if you

1:13:08could speak to what is it that you believe is disqualifying or is causing um you know to quote

1:13:15concerns or challenges because um we have not been hearing that from the Heritage Conservation

1:13:21District that we currently have Brooklyn and the College Hill and we don't hear that from

1:13:25Heritage Conservation Districts and other municipalities um and you know we we're part of

1:13:31national associations of heritage professionals and we go to the National Trust Heritage Conference

1:13:36and we're not we're not hearing that from property owners so where are you hearing that from well

1:13:43look to first if I were to commission a survey today to dispute you I'll bet money that I could

1:13:53get somebody to come up with a finalized report that agrees with what I'm trying to drive towards

1:14:01so what I'm what I'm saying is oftentimes you will get reports commissioned by an organization that

1:14:11has a bias towards like wanting to have a certain outcome and the people who who do the surveys or

1:14:21who um do the reporting will they're often biased unintentionally many times so and again look I

1:14:29want to be very clear I'm neither completely against or nor completely for this district

1:14:36that's being proposed I just want the council city to consider all of these other things that I know

1:14:46to be true and so you made a very good point there are lenders who will not lend on uh properties

1:14:53with aluminum wiring yeah mcap mcap mortgage corporation I know they don't um there are

1:15:00companies that refuse to give a mortgage on a house if it's part of a registry for historical

1:15:08properties or it's part of a historical district or it has a designation it's just the fact and so

1:15:15the point isn't so much that the people cannot get a mortgage or insurance the point is that the

1:15:25offerings the number of potential places where you can do business are smaller and the smaller

1:15:34that number the greater the cost okay it is the way it is and and by the way I think it's great

1:15:40that you're finding uh insurance companies who are um friendly I think was the wording used friendly

1:15:50towards uh historically designated properties or historical districts but that certainly isn't

1:15:56every insurance company is it so you right the question it's it's it's definitely the mayor

1:16:04yeah sorry you're asking questions of staff during a delegation just making sure we're

1:16:08following protocol I appreciate your answer I what I would also appreciate so that we can make a fully

1:16:13informed uh decision is if you can point me to any of your research or studies that demonstrate

1:16:21that point I would I would honestly be very curious to see them if you could sign up to me via email

1:16:27and copy the rest of council um I would really appreciate that everything that I've read including

1:16:33insurance um brokers and this and and associations who represent mortgage lenders and insurance companies

1:16:40um do have opposite language so if you could send those those some of your research to me to

1:16:45demonstrate that point that would be appreciated thank you very much I'd be happy to great and

1:16:52last I have is councillor goller thank you for your presentation mr. bison I really appreciate you

1:16:58sharing your personal experience about challenges with finding uh mortgages and insurance could you

1:17:05give me a deal of what the substantial difference is when a company counsels insurance how much more

1:17:11are are you seeing that you personally have to to pay because when I've spoken to my constituents

1:17:18mind you they are heritage advocates that are talking to me about this they told me that there's

1:17:21not a material difference you know if they cannot get an insurance here they'll get an

1:17:25insurance from a different company but it's not substantially more expensive do you have a different

1:17:30experience the so for me personally there's two two things I want to point out when you're and I

1:17:37have the letter here from my insurance company telling me oh hey sorry uh we have to cancel the

1:17:41insurance on two of your properties we're not going to renew because of this um so the stress

1:17:48of dealing with this this is another job that now I get to do to organize call an insurance broker

1:17:55to organize this for me I don't need that extra work counselor what a pain you know do you have

1:18:02all sorts of extra time in your day and I'm being facetious of course you don't it's pain you don't

1:18:08want to have to deal with this but the stats will tell you that for maintenance costs depending on

1:18:14what it is the cost will be will go out by 10 percent to over a hundred percent more depending

1:18:20on what it is all right and there's a whole list of things and and I'm happy to send the sources

1:18:26to council so you can see this my insurance changed like 10 so it went on the main house

1:18:34from somewhere around 14 000 to almost 16 000 so you know okay it's only 10 but it's

1:18:441500 more that I got to make after tax to cover this and when you start factoring this over

1:18:5120 years it starts to add up and and yet I get nothing in nothing extra when I go to sell my house

1:19:01right okay virtually nothing one percent maybe if I'm lucky and that's just the insurance

1:19:07so this is an example and I'd be happy to send the sources and links and data and I can also

1:19:13send a list of the mortgage companies that will not lend on a home that's got a designation or is

1:19:21on a registry or is part of a district okay I appreciate that so and again all I all I want

1:19:27to finish with for you counselors I just want city to take this into account when they're making

1:19:34the decision because personally I think if you're going to do this you need to think about what the

1:19:42incentives are for homeowners and if you don't have that in place at the time that you make this

1:19:49decision you're opening up a large number to the taxpayers of the city thank you thank you worship

1:19:56great thank you counselor thank you chris free thank you very much for joining us we appreciate it

1:20:01you're welcome thank you okay council it's uh it's uh sorry just a second is there anybody else in the

1:20:11room that wants to talk about this issue no okay and I'm going to have a phone number come up on the

1:20:17screen and it's uh I'll just see a lot out as well it's I know it's 519837 something I can't remember

1:20:24the last four digits am I right yeah 519837 5603 again that's 519837 5603 and we'll just wait

1:20:40back to us okay thank you okay I'll call us back to order then please if I had no one call in and

1:23:07and no one in the audience right now so that leaves it back to us our counselor uh busatil

1:23:13and counselor uh howzer both agreed to move and second uh the receipt of uh what's in front of us

1:23:21here as I stated at the very beginning there is no decisions being made this the whole reason for

1:23:27today is to hear people out to get an update from staff and the consultants around where we're at

1:23:34in the process and to have like it's a check-in it's a pulse check let's call it that uh to determine

1:23:40how things are going and so let's see if we can uh any comments from us or any questions from us

1:23:48back to staff other than sort of what's already been presented over and above uh that they might

1:23:53want to take away to consider consider before it comes back Gibson and then Koran

1:23:59hi thank you uh through you mr mayor uh well I appreciate that the delegates comments I share

1:24:05many of them so I would like to see some of those addressed moving forward I'll struggle to support

1:24:11this if if they're not properly addressed I think he's the third delegate now that's told us he's

1:24:15lost insurance because of heritage designation um but I think the question I have for the staff

1:24:22with in the presentation was it sounded like the more and more staff got talking about the

1:24:28heritage district the more and more it sounded like we were revisiting the downtown secondary plan

1:24:32so can I ask how the two uh support each other how they intertwine and how like I saw 16 stories

1:24:41their maximum um I wanted to make sure that we're not creating another layer of governance in the

1:24:47downtown that isn't already supposed to be covered through the downtown secondary plan

1:24:52especially when it comes to building heights I wouldn't want to be using a heritage district

1:24:57to sort of reimpose a maximum building height uh in the I may be way off but I just want to make

1:25:04sure we're not um we're not creating that sort of um backdoor to uh sort of amend or supersede

1:25:13the downtown secondary plan can staff speak to that please yeah through the mayor to council

1:25:19Gibson so um we purposely did show how it tied into this downtown secondary plan and the um new

1:25:26heights that were proposed through opa 106 um to show that it can work with the new heights that are

1:25:32proposed um so there's nothing more there's nothing less than than what was proposed but we actually

1:25:38tried to show buildings that were in conformity with opa 106 for this demonstration okay thank you

1:25:44so the building height of 16 I think I saw one that said building maximum height of 16 did I see

1:25:49that on your one of your slides that's not the that's not the building height maximum for the

1:25:53entire downtown right that's just a one example that was a situation that you were demonstrating

1:25:58yeah through the counselor to sorry through the mayor to the counselor so um in the downtown

1:26:04heights official plan amendment there were varying heights throughout the downtown so some was still

1:26:0812 some are 14 some are 16 and that was the example we're showing on the area that was 16

1:26:13and then we have kind of the 24 south of the tracks or the old Quebec street mall

1:26:17or the partial of the wood site so it depends on the location on the the varying heights through

1:26:23downtown okay thank I thought that was that was I just wanted to make sure I got that off my chest

1:26:28I'm glad I interpreted it right I appreciate the answer thank you thank you uh Karon then alt please

1:26:34yes thank you um I know that I don't want the discussion uh moving forward to be about

1:26:43um insurance and mortgages I want it to be about the value and the benefits and so I recall that we

1:26:50did a survey um which had a fairly high response rate like 20 percent of all the homeowners and

1:26:57rental property owners and business owners within the heritage conservation district that we do have

1:27:03Brooklyn and the college hill and the purpose of that survey was to to get that kind of feedback

1:27:08about how it's impacted them and I recall that the survey results were extremely favorable

1:27:15can staff um find that survey results and then and circulate it to council

1:27:23yep I'd be happy to happy to find the documents yeah I I actually just googled it and it popped

1:27:30up it was October 2021 so thanks that would be really helpful to to have that information as we

1:27:37move forward great thank you alt and downer please thank you mayor guthrie um this is a very serious

1:27:47question um last week we discussed the allen's bridge if we designate the downtown as a heritage

1:27:56district and looking at the map the allen's bridge is within the heritage district does that

1:28:03affect the status of the allen's bridge which we debated last week and which on um on a tie

1:28:12either wasn't designated or was designated I'm not entirely clear because of the two motions

1:28:18coming to us from heritage uh through through the mayor to the counselor uh so no it does not so

1:28:28any any property whether designated or not designated can still go through a process and

1:28:31that's where we're at with the with the allen's bridge thank you thank you councillor Allt downer please

1:28:46just going back to you miss mayor to the survey idea of their current heritage districts was there

1:28:52a more recent survey than in the heritage district because I remember I live in the heritage district

1:28:59I'm not experiencing any of the problems described nor my neighbors have talked to me about it was

1:29:04there um any any um any more recent survey I thought there was a survey that went out because

1:29:12I remember doing one last recent the last year uh through the mayor to the counselor so it's not a

1:29:19formal survey done across the entire district but when we were investigating this and looking at

1:29:25the insurance issues we did contact some of the folks who've been through heritage processes

1:29:29within the district and we're familiar with the district so we could get some background information

1:29:33and also find out who their mortgage providers were sorry their insurance providers so that we

1:29:38could put that list together for our website okay okay so so I just I that's sort of my comment I

1:29:46guess like I I'm hearing that there's I'm not sure like but I can I can say firsthand that I I've

1:29:52not experienced um any issues with my house I know that I have very old wooden windows if I

1:29:59wanted to replace them I could replace them with aluminum too they don't have to be exactly the

1:30:03same you know there's a lot of things that I can do so and it's a lot of things people have done in

1:30:08this in my neighborhood they've replaced their porch um and some of sometimes it's not quite the

1:30:14same as it was but it it sort of does match the character of the neighborhood so I haven't heard

1:30:20these these problems my husbands are real estate agents who by since has bought and sold in this

1:30:27neighborhood and and he's not hearing any problems of mortgage issues either but I you know perhaps

1:30:33they're out there so like certainly let's let's investigate that um I like um what I'm seeing I

1:30:39I think some people might object to the amount of development that can occur in this heritage

1:30:45district um I'm not concerned when I look at um where Whirl electric is now I always think of it as

1:30:52the the was it the region um and it you know that you can go in and you can still put eight stories

1:31:01there I'm not concerned that we can still do some pretty uh a lot of of development in the

1:31:07downtown even though it's a heritage district and not every property is identified as a as a

1:31:12significant property so I think I think that's that's important um and uh yeah just saying I

1:31:20I like what I see um in this heritage district and if we're not supporting heritage districts we

1:31:26should never have gone down this path we should never have put that extra half a million in the

1:31:31budget a couple of years ago to do two more heritage districts and I and designate more houses and I

1:31:37don't feel that this process has been rushed at all I think it's been a good process with

1:31:42a lot of public input as well they came we thank the consultants who came to the downtown

1:31:49board last a couple weeks ago as well it was a good presentation a lot of questions were asked

1:31:55you know but it was the most was satisfied thank you okay thank you uh caller and then uh

1:32:04clausen and then uh kate and after that anybody else okay those three go for it thank you worship

1:32:15through staff um going back to one of the first comments made by the delegate I just wanted a

1:32:19little bit of clarity uh in terms of the the boundary and who got input uh to to inform the

1:32:25decision for the the word west heritage I remember being part of a group and a bunch of us were drawing

1:32:32different outlines on where we thought the boundary should be was there a open process like that and

1:32:39can you give me an idea of who got to have input into the decision about the boundaries for the

1:32:44downtown through the mayor to councillor goller many groups had input into the process of defining

1:32:57the boundary during the study phase of the project so those groups would have included the public at

1:33:02large through open houses there would have been conversations about what is the boundary what are

1:33:08your thoughts on it the municipal heritage advisory committee the project specific focus group

1:33:16and the recommended boundary would have gone back to all of those groups for reaction and feedback

1:33:23and further input so the recommended boundary that ultimately was also brought to council

1:33:32last year was vetted through a public and transparent process where multiple groups

1:33:38provided input and for additional clarity the extension of the boundary in in one particular

1:33:47direction wasn't the only extension that was made it it widened on all sides based on a range of

1:33:53inputs also from indigenous communities and the study document outlines all of this in in that

1:34:04and also shows that in many instances various members of the public defined a much larger

1:34:11boundary than the one that we we provided so it was vetted I think in a very credible way

1:34:17thank you very much I really appreciate that that that clarification with regards to to process at a

1:34:25higher level today we are looking at the guidelines what would happen next so we we receive this now

1:34:32when are we looking to have an actual bylaw that is enforceable through the mayor to the councillor

1:34:43it would be ready in q1 one next year yeah okay thank you very much thank you worship thank you

1:34:49class and then kate yes thank you through you mr. mayor to the staff I I just wanted to say thank

1:34:58you for the presentation in the work I've been part of a number of the community engagement

1:35:03opportunities and over the last little while and I think that the report is you know

1:35:11mr. mayor said this is a pulse check and I think that you know the pulse is strong

1:35:15I there I've been spending quite a bit of time in the statement of of of district significance

1:35:22and I've been going through the history and I've learned a lot about our city and on its own this

1:35:27is you know like I think everybody in golf should read it because it's it's a great I think it's a

1:35:33great piece of work on you know the history of our city and that goes you know to our indigenous

1:35:39history as well there's a there's a good amount of work done there and I won't I know I won't be

1:35:43ramble on about about the reports too much but thanks thank you for your work on this

1:35:49I did have a question with regard to as I was reading through the report I did refer to a CIP

1:35:58I can't remember at what point the CIP expired maybe it was 2019 and I just I wanted to talk a

1:36:05little bit more about the heritage incentives and if if staff is proposing certain incentives

1:36:11when would that come and I guess secondly to that point I've been doing my own research on

1:36:19cities who have heritage districts who have types of incentive programs so city of Burlington has

1:36:27heritage incentives city of Collingwood and there is a third one about it it's at Kingston city of

1:36:33Kingston and I was just in Kingston they've got three heritage districts and they've got these

1:36:37except all of them have incentive programs to a varying degrees when we might see something like this

1:36:45through the mayor to the councillor so heritage incentives I think there's actually a council

1:36:49resolution to bring it back with the word west um HCD so we'll be bringing forward that and

1:36:54identifying what types there are and then certainly it would be considered at a future budget

1:37:00point but this point when we bring forward word west we'd just be talking about what types of

1:37:04incentives there are out there and then we would drill down further following that

1:37:09okay um and so wait when would that be exactly from a date perspective

1:37:14sometime in the spring you'll see the first draft of that okay great thank you um and then I have a

1:37:20second question with regard to the energy efficiency piece and the work that property owners can do to

1:37:26make their properties more energy efficient so I'm just we you know casually I think

1:37:32councillor Caron was mentioning uh wood windows for example wood windows my understanding is that

1:37:38they can be replaced to become more energy efficient and there's another a number of other

1:37:44things that property owners can do I just wonder if you could speak a little bit more to that and how

1:37:49a heritage building doesn't necessarily become a barrier to becoming energy efficient through

1:37:59the mayor to the councillor so the plan is supportive of energy efficiency and um I spoke a

1:38:05bit about how policies um allow for um changing materials and upgrading windows and there is

1:38:15there is a process for that um there are no you shall keep your wood windows forever language

1:38:22in this plan it's not there anywhere um and I think it's a good piece of feedback about maybe

1:38:27making energy efficiency goals a little um more clearly stated in the in the plan

1:38:36but there's nothing in this plan that would limit that okay uh thank you

1:38:44great thank you councillor and uh I have kateen coming on next thank you through you mr. mayor to

1:38:50staff um I just wanted to thank staff um specifically for adding in the accessibility

1:38:57area I know that a lot of people are worried about doing renovations and you know adding ramps and

1:39:03whether or not that would affect uh their requirements for permits so I appreciate that

1:39:08and uh just similar to um past comments and through the delegate uh I think it'd be great

1:39:18especially in the exterior wall section to to have something in there about the interior options that

1:39:25you can do for uh climate-proofing your home I've lived in quite a few over 100 year old homes and I

1:39:32know that we replaced the interior walls and that kind of vapor barrier items and things like that can

1:39:38negate the need to change the that is all we really like the last part of what you said can you repeat

1:39:55the last uh 10 seconds that is all okay the part before that is all was also probably really good

1:40:07too you just cut out here on our end so we appreciate it thank you councillor kateen all right

1:40:14hearing nothing more I'll just wrap up with my some of my comments and questions if you don't mind

1:40:20um I know some of this might already be taken off but it's good just kind of throw it out in the

1:40:25public realm will anything with the community permitting planning system interfere with

1:40:32the potential heritage district uh through the mayor no it's actually supposed to work with the

1:40:42heritage district perfect thank you um the survey that councillor Caron asked for that was done in 2021

1:40:54I'm wondering if that can just make maybe be sent to to all and or maybe posted as a link on

1:41:00the link on the documents on the on the website for this so the public can see that as well that'd be cool

1:41:08um and my my last uh just comment because this is what it's for comments it's kind of take away

1:41:17is uh I am it is absolutely true and I was a little bit hesitant back when I was a councillor

1:41:26about approving the old old university neighborhood uh heritage district but I I supported it then

1:41:33and it is absolutely true that like a lot of the fear of some of the things that were

1:41:39could maybe happen then didn't come to fruition um and so it's been several years and there's been

1:41:45I think uh real buy-in and not a lot of negativity that's come out of it at all but I do view that

1:41:53very different a different animal than a downtown core business commercial center where we have a new

1:42:00height study and we want more density and there's all this business and residential intermixed so I

1:42:07view them very differently so my concerns a little bit are are more prevalent for this one maybe

1:42:15compared to the other one that was more residential weighted more residential heavy than the one that

1:42:21we have in the downtown core so I'm I'm a little bit concerned with some of the sort of examples

1:42:26of well we're going to have a setback here and we're going to do this here that it becomes

1:42:33I don't want it to become cumbersome to development um so that that's just a broad I know it's a

1:42:41broad statement so I'm not suggesting on this road or that road but I I there's enough things sort of

1:42:48in the way of building that I just really don't want things like this to get in the way of building

1:42:58especially in an area that we've all agreed that we want to intensify get intensification and density

1:43:04in so I just want to make sure that the end result really hopefully really balances that and sort of

1:43:12really lays out in very clear language how it is not a hinders anything that's hindering that

1:43:21and then finally I would just echo that there is there is there is a disconnect whether we like it

1:43:26or not there is a disconnect of of some of the commentary we've been hearing from some delegates

1:43:32that have come up on other items and this one in regards to mr mr bison's presentation there is so

1:43:39there there is still a disconnect and we can't just discount that of sort of the on the ground

1:43:44reality of people and what they're experiencing with either insurance or mortgages or whatever

1:43:51compared to what we're kind of hearing elsewhere of like well it's maybe not a problem so it's not

1:43:58I'm not trying to say someone's right and someone's wrong but it is proper to I think observe that

1:44:03there's a disconnect here somewhere and I'd love to have that fleshed out just a little bit more

1:44:08before the final stuff comes back to to us with that though those are my comments just to

1:44:17for you to take away so I appreciate you letting me say that with that I'm happy to call the vote

1:44:22then because again this is just and for you council richerson it's just a receive yep only so

1:44:29if you're okay I'll call the vote then on receiving and is anyone against that

1:44:35no one okay so thank you very much to staff to our delegate as well and to our consultants we

1:44:41appreciate that we'll move right on to the next item and the next item is the let's see here it's

1:44:49the draft official plan amendment the official plan so speaking of receive only here's another one