Request for variance from Section 18.1.3 G) to permit ground sign 1A setback 3 metres from the street line… be refused

3:30:29drive and so we are good at the the um the report sort of speaks for itself here at council so

3:30:39there's uh basically three recommendations that are in front of us one of them is looking for an

3:30:45approval the other two are looking for a refusal and uh the staff are recommending refusal especially

3:30:53around sort of the height requirements that are being proposed by the applicant and also

3:31:01other signage that's kind of already on the property i'm trying to give a high level

3:31:04view of the report but um we do have a uh delegation uh liz is it uh i'm sorry liz is it

3:31:14risk rush okay that was going to be my fourth try on that one so i appreciate you saying it

3:31:22liz welcome uh you're from country signs so i will turn it over to you we uh it's a five minute

3:31:29uh delegation and so there will be a chime at the four minute and 30 second

3:31:37point of the delegation as a warning and then i will have to turn off the microphone at the

3:31:41five minute mark but stick around just in case there is any uh questions from myself for my

3:31:46colleagues okay so i'll turn it over to you and your time starts whenever you're ready go ahead

3:31:52perfect thank you so much uh good evening mayor Guthrie and council thank you for having me today

3:31:57and staff for all of their assistance um i'm going to start with an overview and then i'll get into

3:32:02kind of specifics um so this property at 705 south gate drive it's a corner lot and faces three roads

3:32:09in the south end of gulf the busiest intersection is layered in south gate and then handland parkway

3:32:16is 200 meters away it is surrounded by commercial properties and cannot be seen from any residential

3:32:22parcels or sorry parcels um with a plan for multi-service based businesses on this property

3:32:31appropriate glanceable signage is required uh in the petroleum industry we have the uh this

3:32:42includes the visibility up signage so if you ever realized when you're coming up on a gas station

3:32:46and you got curious on the gas price to make your decision on whether you're actually going to pull

3:32:50in or not um generally you're able to just take a quick glance over see it right away and there's

3:32:55minimal obstructions um it's because signs are designed to attract not distract if drivers are

3:33:03hunting around for information they're more distracted than ever um so low ground signs mean

3:33:09that they're easily covered by another vehicle or growth or anything like that um and it's just not

3:33:14as easy to see so breaking us down further um i'm just looking at the layered road signed first

3:33:22this line has been approved by mto um it is currently blocked uh the section that it's going

3:33:28in is blocked by a city chain link fence that is six feet tall that you can see in this image

3:33:33um with a taller sign um all businesses on site will receive the appropriate signage with minimal

3:33:39obstruction um the sign is also visible from further away i'm not sure if we can switch to the next page

3:33:47um so this kind of just gives you an overview of where the fence is if we have the seven and a

3:33:51half uh meter pile on our sign uh versus if we were to actually lose that section lose that height

3:33:57and then have the fence in front of it as well we lose significant space on that um sign and so

3:34:06making sure that the sign is visible uh so the gas price and businesses can be seen um and decisions

3:34:11can be made at a safe distance to get to the turning lane and make their way into the site is

3:34:15important is important uh the petro canada is located at the far side of the site from layered

3:34:20meaning the signage that exists on it currently is not visible until cars are directly beside

3:34:24the location i'm not here to speculate on what other signage will go on site i'm not stating

3:34:29i'm just stating what exists for the gas station itself um having the appropriate signage area

3:34:35available also means the owner can attract a variety of businesses for franchises there are a

3:34:40lot of stipulations around uh grounds area sorry ground sign area and signage area requirements

3:34:45and if there is less space it means that there are less businesses that would be able to entertain

3:34:50this location um and so we're talking about future sustainability here and not just the current situation

3:34:57for the other side of uh this signs actually sorry if you want to the next page please

3:35:04um so this is just kind of the visibility of like the price sign and everything on layered road

3:35:09coming from handlin is on the right hand side and then just at the the stop signs there you can kind

3:35:14of see there's distractions in that that area and in the next page and so this is the south gate

3:35:24and corporate court um section so the height here is definitely about safety um as the entrance is

3:35:29entrance is not as straightforward um so you can't pass the sign and then decide to get into the location

3:35:37so it could make it business um because they missed the entrance or even worst case scenario is they

3:35:46could be creating an unsafe situation to try and get into that station by maneuvering around a median

3:35:52or hammering on brakes and those kind of things if they see the information too late um having this

3:35:58height means that people can see it from further distance and the businesses that exist at the

3:36:02location so that nobody is second guessing themselves and creating a safety hazard at that corner because

3:36:09um where I've indicated the entrance on the right hand picture is where they would have to enter and

3:36:14this sign is actually after that entrance um which isn't kind of a typical situation when

3:36:20you come to a gas station usually you see the sign you pass it you enter um and so it's just not possible

3:36:27just so you know just so you know Liz it's a 30 seconds okay okay perfect um so the original

3:36:33hope was a nine meter sign and so we determined a seven and a half would be possible we are generally

3:36:38allowed these in different municipalities and I do have six examples of different cities that do

3:36:43allow these without any consideration uh outside their bylaws um and I think of those to you guys

3:36:49if you would like them thank you very much okay right on the right on the bell thank you so much

3:36:57councillor councillor billings has a question for you um okay the municipalities that allow

3:37:04are you talking the seven and a half yes anywhere from seven and a half to nine okay okay so

3:37:12surrounding municipalities do you have any I have Ottawa Mississauga Brampton uh Clarington

3:37:18Obomenville Aurelia Cornwall basically all across Ontario okay those are ones I could just pull out

3:37:25that I could remember off the top of my head okay then through you Mr. Mayor uh I just want to ask

3:37:31about sign one so sign one you have the three meter setback but then there's this unsightly fence

3:37:40so I drove out there yesterday to take a look at this because sometimes um

3:37:47you know in real life seeing the the situation in real life is different than than a picture that

3:37:53that's in our package and so I I understand what you're talking about with this fence

3:37:58but in your conversation with staff was it ever brought up like is it possible at all so that some

3:38:05of that fence can be taken taken out removed so that the fence isn't blocking that sign so again

3:38:13just sign one um I am not aware of any ability to remove that fence I I'm honestly not sure

3:38:23why it exists okay um so yes okay okay sign sign B yeah you're asking for one meter setback

3:38:36where we require three meters is I thought the ground signs were required to have three

3:38:44meters but maybe I'm wrong um so so my question is is it is it possible at all to have a larger

3:38:52setback than the one meter for for sign B um so it is required to be a minimum setback of one

3:39:00meter from a street line okay um for the maximum height of six meters um which is why we are asking

3:39:07for the extra um based on this site I do not believe that we can go much further back on

3:39:14this side I did look because MTO does like to have a three meter setback which is why we did move

3:39:20the layered one back to the three meters um just in preparation and speaking with MTO um so I was

3:39:30trying to look at the the site plan um I don't believe we would be able to go back to three meters

3:39:36at that point um just because the convenience store is we're kind of side okay okay thank you thank you

3:39:50so any other follow-up or am I good for this then okay it looks like I'm uh good with this

3:39:58Liz thank you very much for your delegation tonight we appreciate it um okay so uh there's

3:40:08nothing further would someone be willing to move the staff recommendation now there's three of them

3:40:15the first one being to approve and the second one being to refuse and the third one being to refuse

3:40:22so does anyone want to move the staff recommendations to put them on the floor

3:40:26uh k-10 and uh downer okay um questions okay uh goller and then billings

3:40:38do you're working with the question of the chain link fence could you let us know why it is there

3:40:44and if there's a potential for it to be removed through the marido councillor goller I do believe

3:40:52that's an MTO fence so staff would not um could authorize we cannot talk about that totally get it

3:41:00and and my second question um the report speaks to um this not being in compliance with the council

3:41:07approved guidelines but given that it is in a purely industrial zone and um as as was mentioned

3:41:16you cannot see the sign from any residential area um would there be other negative impacts

3:41:23if we were to allow the larger signs yes yeah I think I'm just trying to understand um you know

3:41:34besides the fact that it's what council said what would be the other downsides of allowing the

3:41:39the larger signs through the marido councillor goller um you know other than what council endorsed

3:41:46and wished for the city to have um um these specific regulations and there weren't special areas

3:41:55if only residential if only commercial if only industrial that was not included in the sign

3:42:01by law it is um as written okay okay I really appreciate that um and if if council were to today

3:42:13allow the larger size of signs because it is an industrial zone and it is far away from

3:42:19residential do you foresee other negative consequences for other parts of the city

3:42:27through to the marido councillor goller I would expect more sign variances than to come to council

3:42:35okay now I think that the crux here is that this is an industrial area it is far away from

3:42:41residential if we allow this and then next month an industrial area that is across the street from

3:42:47residential would we have to allow that because we allowed it here or could we say no to that one

3:42:53because we can say actually they can see you from the apartment building sort of from the townhouses

3:42:58would that be be allowed for us to say no to that one but yes to this one because of the proximity

3:43:05to residential I'll answer that because that's kind of a political question it's the will of council

3:43:11we can have 11 more applications come in and they all don't meet whatever our criteria is and we

3:43:16can say no thank you council every time thank you worship I'm just you know if it does go to a

3:43:22tribunal and staff tells me because we approved it here the tribunal is going to overturn every

3:43:27other decision because we said yes to an industrial I think that's what I was trying to understand

3:43:33and through the mayor if I can clarify so this is not subject to the OLT or to a tribunal this is

3:43:38council's final decision and if I can just clarify one other item council caller it's not it's only

3:43:43the size of the sign was one item but it was also the setback was another item so it was the height

3:43:48the size and the setback there was three parts in those second those two other recommendations

3:43:53thank you thank you think of billings I think I saw your hand go up for a question

3:43:59it was Mr. Mayor but I was asked I wanted to ask about the the fence because I thought

3:44:04my understanding from the report was that it was a city fence

3:44:08not no no problem so that's okay all ALT and then I'll describe thank you Mayor

3:44:17deathly through you to staff the setback is a concern to me because it especially as soon as

3:44:24I found out that it was an MTO fence as well I'm wondering if there are implications from the

3:44:30highway traffic act and sight lines and visibility given that that is a high traffic area through

3:44:40the mayor to council or ALT MTO did review and approve they issued their permit their development

3:44:47permit for the ground signs and sight line triangles are also looked at with applications

3:44:53and we do ensure that they are out of sight out of sight line triangles thank you okay so what we

3:45:03have in front of us is a few options okay the the staff motions have been tabled one for

3:45:11approve two for refuse three to refuse if they're I'll separate them out okay so we'll do one two and

3:45:19three um if you want to approve them to allow them to build the build these signs then my suggestion

3:45:30is that you let me ask the the clerk would it be best for us to defeat two in number number two

3:45:37and number three and then have a new motion go down or would it be best to do an an amendment

3:45:43to change the word refuse to approve through you mr. mayor an amendment of that fashion would

3:45:50be contrary to the original motion show to be defeated and then put back on the floor

3:45:54was simply the word refuse change to approved okay that's okay so it's the first one I suggested

3:45:59so you would if you want to allow the signs to occur just defeat number two and defeat number three

3:46:06okay and then we can have a conversation after that okay so I'll call the vote on number one

3:46:11which is to approve is there anyone against no and now we'll call the vote on number two

3:46:20is there anyone against so how's her and downer and quassan and gut three

3:46:28and busitil and chew and galler and Richardson and billings and Gibson okay so that's 10 so that

3:46:40that's that okay now we're going to number three is if uh is there anyone against number three

3:46:49so uh Richardson and galler and chew and busitil and gut three and downer and quassan and hauser

3:46:58and Gibson and billings okay so um it's ward six counselor howzer would you be willing to then

3:47:08move a motion uh the two motions as as to approve uh yes um I propose that council consider

3:47:16approving the reverse recommendation okay and then chew it's your word do you want to second that

3:47:23yep okay so I'll call the vote do I need to separate those two or no okay I'll call the vote then

3:47:30by the way clerks you're with me on on this okay I'll call the vote on those two to approve

3:47:35okay is anyone against that okay alt and katin okay and so those sign variances are approved

3:47:46all right thank you very much to staff and to the delegation and uh and uh we'll move on to the

3:47:51final one it's the final countdown one claire road um we this is a decision uh report so it's five