Committee of the Whole

6:42Okay, this is your 20s, 10 second warning.

6:59So for those online, if you could put your cameras on for us.

7:04And for those in the room, if you could grab your seat.

7:08Thank you very much.

7:20And again, for those online, if you wouldn't mind just putting your camera on just for

7:23a second so I can just make sure we have everybody.

7:26It'd be great.

7:44Okay, I'll call the committee of the whole meeting to order.

7:47It is Wednesday, September 3rd, 2025.

7:50It is two o'clock.

7:51And right off the top is ready to disclosure of pecuniary interest and

7:54a general nature thereof for the items in front of us.

7:58Hearing and seeing none.

8:02We're going to jump right into some staff recognitions, which is always great.

8:06And so I'm going to go back and forth between Councillor Caron and

8:10Councillor Downer who are going to read out some of the great information on our staff.

8:16And so we'll start with that please.

8:17And so I will go to, I think you, Councillor Caron, if you don't mind going first.

8:23Great.

8:24Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

8:25I'm always pleased to do these recognitions because we have some amazing people on our

8:30staff team and one of those I get to recognize today is Joey Tang as part of the corporate

8:35services team.

8:37Congratulations, Joey Tang on the successful completion of the Ampt Co-association of

8:43Municipal Clerks and Treasures of Ontario Diploma in Municipal Administration with Honours.

8:51The Diploma in Municipal Administration provides essential and integrated knowledge of

8:56municipal government in Ontario and the Diploma Academic Curriculum encompasses

9:01municipal administration, finance, law, and human resource management.

9:06So please join me in congratulating Joey on this major accomplishment.

9:10Congratulations.

9:19So go straight to our next group.

9:22Okay.

9:23The next, I'm recognizing two individuals.

9:27And the first is Stefan Schmid, Advisor in Corporate and Community Strategic Initiatives

9:34for earning his lean green belt.

9:38This level of lean belt certifies that an individual can lead cross-corporate continuous

9:42improvement projects.

9:43And as part of the certification process, Stefan had to demonstrate this ability by

9:50leading a project.

9:51And his focus was on how the data collected and reviewed for the annual progress reporting

9:57on the strategic plan.

9:59And the results of this project included a 27% reduction in business days needed to

10:05prepare the report.

10:06So that's always good from an efficiency point of view.

10:08So thank you.

10:09That's incredible.

10:10Process standardization and clarity amongst the various partners required and significant

10:16reduction in the amount of rework required throughout the process due data input, due

10:21to data input issues.

10:22And from a council perspective, that's our strategic plan and our annual reporting is

10:27so important for setting our budget and for guiding us along on all the decisions that

10:32we make.

10:33So this is incredibly important for council.

10:37Stefan has been with the city for four years, standing with the economic development team

10:41and then moving over to join strategic initiatives and intergovernmental services where he supports

10:46portfolios such as innovation and change management.

10:49So congratulations, Stefan.

10:51You are.

10:51And we'll get to the photo ops shortly, but we have one more to recognize and that's

11:00Kiera Kali, specialist in continuous improvement for earning her lean black belt.

11:08This level of lean black belt certifies that an individual can lead organization wide lean

11:15improvements, lead the implementation of lead and training and programs within an organization

11:20and certify other lean belts.

11:22So it helps perpetuate the whole lean belt program that we have for her project.

11:28Kiera chose to review the lean certification and training processes at the city to ensure

11:33the program continues to meet its goals in the most efficient manner possible.

11:37The results for project include improved intake processes to ensure readiness of candidates

11:43increasing the likelihood of successful completion of the program and continuous application

11:48of skills afterwards.

11:50Simplifying the program and aligning training with adult learning principles, increasing

11:54knowledge retention and the experience of the candidates and utilized technology to

11:59significantly reduce the administrative time required from the continuous improvement team.

12:05And this time was re this time was reallocated to hands on support for belts, including those

12:11who had previously completed the program in the delivery of continuous improvement projects

12:15as at the city.

12:17And for me and for my council colleagues, I know that continuous improvement is something

12:22that we hold very dear in our corporate culture.

12:25And so the work that you've done, Kiera, is very important for us moving forward on things

12:29like our strategic plan.

12:30Kiera joined the continuous improvement team at the city in 2022 and continues to grow

12:35in her role supporting and coaching belts at the city in the delivery of lean programs.

12:41So congratulations, Kiera.

12:42Great.

12:51Thank you.

12:52I'll turn it over to the public services or to chair downer.

12:54And we have the awarding of a King's Coronation Medal.

12:57Very, very high honor hearing Guelph.

13:01So in late July, just prior to his retirement as Guelph's general manager of fire services

13:06and fire chief, the social general Michael Kursner and Mayor Kamgrath-Reedy visited the

13:13Guelph fire headquarters where they presented Chief Brian Arnold with the King's Coronation

13:18Medal.

13:20Chief Arnold began his career in 1993 as a firefighter in Toronto and since that time

13:26honed his leadership skills with roles in London, Woodstock, Sarnia and Cambridge, ending

13:33his career here at the City of Guelph.

13:36Over his career, he emphasized both public and staff safety and remained a valued leader

13:41in the fire services sector, including many years as a director on the board of Ontario

13:47Association of Fire Chiefs.

13:49Nominated directly by the Solicitor General Kursner, this prestigious award recognized

13:56Chief Arnold's outstanding dedication to public safety throughout his career in fire services.

14:03Just a note that Mr. Arnold could not be here with us today.

14:08However, he did send along his appreciation for the acknowledgement of his receiving of

14:13the King's Coronation Medal.

14:24That's great.

14:26Did we want to have the ones that are at least here in the room maybe join the chairs and

14:29myself down in front of the Guelph backdrop there?

14:32And we'll do a quick picture.

14:35Not me, but do you want to trade places?

14:37Yeah, we'll bring them back.

14:38Okay.

18:29I'm going to bring the meeting back to order.

18:32Normally, I wouldn't start until the public services part of the meeting, but Kam and

18:38I changed, the Mayor and I changed chairs earlier.

18:40So I'm going to do the chairing for the presentation that we have today and it's from the information

18:47technology.

18:48So Adam Fisher, our general manager of information technology has a very informative presentation

18:56for us on information technology.

18:58Thank you.

18:59Go ahead, Adam.

19:00Thank you, Councillor Downer.

19:01I'm assuming this is the clicker.

19:03Okay, perfect.

19:04Okay.

19:13Good afternoon, everybody.

19:15My name is Adam Fisher.

19:16As Councillor Downer mentioned, I am the general manager of information technology and

19:20I'm extremely excited to be here today to talk about our service area, but also get

19:24a chance to talk about how the City of Guelph's IT department is aligning with our strategic

19:29vision within the city, driving innovation, service excellence through technology.

19:34I already clicked on it.

19:35So the IT department is on a deliberate path of evolution and growth, aspiring to move

19:41from being primarily a support function to being a strategic partner within the city.

19:47And we're looking to do this through our service delivery and our internal operations.

19:50And a core of our journey is our identity, which is recently centered around our four

19:55guiding principles which we established as part of our IT business-aligned strategy.

19:59Those guiding principles are alignment, customer centricity, growth and development and value.

20:06And we plan to shape how we operate based on these guiding principles and all of the

20:10work we do.

20:12And all of the work that we do aligns with the strategic goals of the organization, hence

20:17the alignment.

20:18We want to ensure that all of our work is contributing to a positive customer experience,

20:23whether it is our internal city staff members or the members of the public.

20:27We want to ensure we are encouraging and supporting the growth and development of our staff members

20:32to continue our advancement forward.

20:34And we want to ensure that we are delivering value in all of the work that we do, aiming

20:39to provide solutions that are intuitive, efficient and impactful.

20:42All right, so I'll take a minute to talk about our team.

20:49The IT department is a member of the corporate services team.

20:53And the corporate services team is made up of six different divisions.

20:57Our team is made up of about 65 staff members consisting of full-time staff, contractors,

21:02co-op students.

21:04We have five divisions that support the organization through the IT department.

21:08So the first one, IT architecture and design solutions led by Matthew Thomas.

21:13This team designs and implements digital solutions, sets data standards and is preparing for AI

21:18to help the organization work smarter, make better decisions and deliver great service.

21:23The business solutions team led by Colin McReynolds is focused on supporting and improving business

21:28systems to enhance service delivery, efficiency and compliance.

21:32Our enterprise resource planning team led by Steve Huggins is driving the modernization

21:37and automation of the ERP program of work.

21:42Our IT portfolio project management team led by Manjusha Pradhan.

21:47This group improves IT planning, service delivery and change management to ensure effective

21:52operations of our IT projects.

21:55And last but not least, our IT operations team led by Ashraf Abu-Aliya in charge of

22:01our IT infrastructure while also overseeing and managing our cybersecurity program to

22:05protect our digital assets.

22:07And in supporting all of our divisions is our administrative assistant, Jen Therdo, who

22:11helps keep us organized, connected and plays a key role in maintaining team focus and momentum.

22:18So on the corporate strategic plan, the IT department is responsible for three primary

22:23key strategic plan items.

22:25So the first one is implement the enterprise resource planning system or the ERP system.

22:30So with this program, there are two large programs of work.

22:33The first one, implementation of procurement into our existing ERP platform.

22:40That program is in progress right now and scheduled for corporate launch Q4 2025.

22:46The second larger portion of this program is evaluating and re-engineering our enterprise

22:51asset management practices and processes in support of the implementation of a new enterprise

22:57asset management platform.

22:58And that work is scheduled to start implementation Q4 2025 to Q1 2026.

23:05The second key item on the strategic plan, protect our information and records by investing

23:10in our digital infrastructure.

23:12In support of this item, we have executed nine large scale cybersecurity projects, three

23:17major data and digital projects, and three critical infrastructure modernization projects

23:22since the start of the future golf strategy in 2024.

23:28And the final item on the corporate strategic plan that we're directly responsible for is

23:32develop the digital and technology master plan to modernize IT systems and services.

23:37And so earlier this year, IT completed the business aligned IT strategy, which launched

23:42in Q2 2025.

23:44And this was not a strategy that was built in a silo by IT, but this was a strategy that

23:48was built in consultation with all areas around the organization, ensuring that IT is aligning

23:54our services in support of the business moving forward.

23:58Now IT has three directed strategic supports, but we support this organization in almost

24:03all aspects of the strategic plan.

24:06So in 2025, IT currently has 75 plus active projects, which are indirectly supporting

24:12all aspects of the corporate strategic plan across the all pillars.

24:20So we can't understand how well we're doing unless we're measuring our success.

24:24So we have some key metrics that we apply across our strategic work to ensure we are

24:29understanding where we're at and how we're moving forward.

24:32Some of the key metrics I'll mention today are project delivery.

24:35So we look to measure the percentage of projects delivered on time.

24:38We measure the quality of our service delivery based on staff satisfaction reports.

24:43We measure the progress on our data analytics program, basically linking our data task force

24:49program to this KPI.

24:52We look to measure the number of new digital services we've created and enhancements we've

24:55issued to the city of Guelph.

24:57We're measuring our project on our progress on the corporate utility billing program,

25:02which is aiming to bring billing services from a lecture into the city of Guelph for

25:05water services.

25:07And we measure our progress on technology enhancements in support of housing.

25:15Now the IT department, I talked a little bit about the strategic plan, but we're not only

25:19the strategic plan.

25:20We have five main core service objectives that we execute on a daily basis in order to support

25:26the residents and the staff of the city of Guelph.

25:29And our core service objectives and work plans are segmented into five different sections.

25:34The first one are cybersecurity and IT operations.

25:37It focuses on protecting the city's critical infrastructure, data and IT systems while

25:41ensuring business continuity, service reliability and support.

25:45Our IT governance and IT management program establishes the policies, processes and structures

25:50needed to manage IT risk, compliance and performance effectively.

25:55Our application modernization and enhancement program, which modernizes legacy systems and

26:00platforms reducing technical debt and delivering improved functionality that supports business

26:04needs.

26:06Our fourth program, our digital service creation enhancement program, drives the creation of

26:11new digital services for residents and staff with a focus on accessibility, usability and

26:16integration.

26:18And then finally our data analytics and AI program, which builds the foundation for data

26:22driven decisions and responsible AI adoption through governance, infrastructure and analytics.

26:29Now I want to take a minute to connect some of our work that we're doing with public facing

26:34initiatives.

26:35Because it's not always easy to see the work that IT is doing versus what is getting delivered

26:40to the business or the public.

26:41So I'll highlight a couple of key ones that are ongoing in 2025.

26:45So the first one are corporate utility building platform implementation as I mentioned earlier.

26:50We are working with our partners inside of finance, water, wastewater, storm water to

26:55implement a corporate water billing platform and transition services in-house from ELECTRA

27:00providing enhanced service for residents and delivering this service to our residents of

27:05the wealth.

27:06We are working on supporting housing through our digital planning improvements project.

27:14Working with planning and building and engineering and finance to digitize workflows, automate

27:19tasks and accelerate housing related approvals.

27:24We are working with our partners in the licensing department delivering modernizing workflows

27:29with corporate licensing platforms and enabling delivery of over 20 different license types

27:35making services more accessible and more efficient.

27:38We are working in close collaboration with our friends in parking, bringing forward parking

27:42modernization, launching new portals with parking that improves customer experience and

27:47automates our back office processes.

27:50We are working closely with our wastewater team to deliver infrastructure intelligence

27:56leading the development of a video platform that supports data driven decisions for infrastructure

28:00planning and rehabilitation.

28:03And we are working with our friends in corporate performance delivering modern analytics platforms

28:08that enhance our KPI reporting and support better decision making across the organization.

28:14These initiatives are like a snapshot that reflect our commitment to collaboration, modernization

28:19and delivering value.

28:20IT isn't just a support function.

28:23It's a strategic partner driving innovation and improving outcomes across the city which

28:27will relate into my next two slides related to corporate data and AI.

28:33So IT's work plan spans many areas but I want to highlight these two as the potential

28:37to drive operational efficiency.

28:39IT is working closely with our business partners to support the corporate data task force and

28:44advance one of the city's most transformative programs, the corporate data program.

28:49And we've made strong progress but there's still work ahead in order to fully develop

28:53our four key components of the program.

28:56Because it isn't just about managing data.

28:58It's about unlocking potential, driving smarter decisions, greater efficiency and innovation.

29:03So with a solid foundation we can enable AI to deliver real value across the organization.

29:09So the graphic on the screen outlines the phased approach on our data program.

29:14First we understand our data inventory, what is available across the city.

29:17We catalog our existing assets.

29:19Through that we transition into building standards to ensure consistency and quality across our

29:24corporate data.

29:26As we do that we transition into the overall governance which is defining our roles and

29:30policies within the program.

29:32And then finally the management layer operationalizes it all.

29:36Ensuring secure, reliable, usable data for the organization.

29:41Each step builds on the last creating a sustainable integrated data ecosystem.

29:52And one of the reasons why data is so important in today's world is the adoption of AI and

29:58the rapid acceleration we've seen with it.

30:00But we can't have a good AI program without the good robust data program.

30:05Now like I mentioned earlier we're not just doing data but we're also working in conjunction

30:12to help build up our AI program.

30:14Now AI first launched November 2022.

30:17It was recognized early in the organization that this was going to be something that we

30:20needed to start to plan for.

30:22So in 2023 IT partnered with HR legal privacy and we developed a reasonable use framework

30:29to support staff in their use.

30:31This collaboration also released or led to the release of our corporate AI usage guidelines

30:36which gives staff the framework on how they're leveraging AI.

30:40And we standardized an approved AI tool at that time as well which is our Microsoft Copilot

30:44AI tool.

30:45Now currently we have over 450 staff members when I built the report who had leveraged

30:50a tool and we have around 50 daily active users.

30:54And they're starting to leverage the base AI functionality which is a great sign because

30:58we're seeing this adoption across the organization.

31:00And it's driving efficiency in multiple different areas.

31:03It's driving efficiency in document and email drafting, meeting summaries, action items,

31:07data analysis, insight, research, policy compliance and support.

31:12When we talk about AI it's not just about a one tool but it's about an overall vision.

31:16And the overall corporate vision for AI and data is still being defined within the organization.

31:22And we're working closely with our organizational partners to understand the needs and how we

31:27can best move this forward.

31:29And our corporate data program is a critical enabler of our broader AI strategy.

31:33So as strong data foundations are essential for any AI capabilities.

31:41So as part of this work we'll be engaging with partners across the organization to establish

31:45the governance and direction for AI in conjunction with our corporate data program.

31:50We will ensure alignment, transparency and a shared vision on how these capabilities

31:54will support our corporate goals.

32:00Now with anything we have challenges and opportunities.

32:03And the city of Guelph is at a pivotal point in digital evolution.

32:07So yes we have face challenges.

32:09We have a lot of opportunities to transform our corporate data and AI programs.

32:14We have a lot of opportunities to transform our corporate data and AI programs.

32:18We are committed to advancing our corporate data analytics and AI programs.

32:23Unlocking efficiency and innovation.

32:25But it's not just about chasing what's new.

32:27It's about balancing innovation with renewal.

32:30We are modernizing our core platforms.

32:34Transitioning to the cloud and investing in critical applications such as enterprise

32:38case management, GIS and enterprise asset management.

32:42Our strategy is focused on balance.

32:45Implementing foundational upgrades that not only support innovation and future initiatives

32:48but also build stability, sustainability and transformation.

32:52This work is complex and interconnected.

32:55And progress doesn't always come in big flashy moments.

32:58But it's happening.

32:59This is why I've termed or coined the term to remind my team celebrate the progress.

33:04We may not see the big win for a while but we celebrate the progress as we move through

33:08this.

33:09Every milestone is a step towards a more efficient, innovative and future ready organization.

33:14All right, so next couple slides I'll talk about the highlights of our IT budget.

33:27IT is a business enabler.

33:29So every dollar invested in IT is a dollar invested in areas of the business.

33:36About 70% of our IT operating budget comes directly from property taxes, reflecting our

33:40foundational role in public service delivery.

33:43Another 26% comes from internal recoveries which ensures that rate funded areas are properly

33:48supported throughout the city.

33:53Operating expenses highlights number two.

33:55The vast majority of our operating budget is our people.

33:5896% of our expenses go to salaries, wages and benefits highlighting our focus on skilled

34:03talent to deliver technology solutions.

34:05IT is also responsible and oversees the IT general operating account.

34:12Where 86% of the costs are in support of corporate software platforms and systems.

34:20And the remaining 10% covers internet, network connectivity, data center operation and cloud

34:24infrastructure.

34:30The IT department has a planned capital investment of approximately 30 million over the next

34:33decade.

34:34This funding supports a wide range of strategic initiatives that directly enable business

34:38operations across the organization.

34:41Earlier investments include infrastructure renewal, enterprise applications, cybersecurity

34:46enhancements, digital transformation projects such as the electronic documents and record

34:51management system and customer relation management.

34:54The capital plan reflects a strong emphasis on modernization, resilience and service delivery

35:00with prioritization levels guiding timing and scale of each initiative.

35:04These investments ensure that IT continues to be a foundational enabler of technology,

35:08efficiency and public service excellence.

35:14So as I reach the end, I'm excited about the progress we've made and even more so about

35:18what's ahead.

35:19We're at a key moment in our digital journey and the choices we make now will shape how

35:23we serve the community for years to come.

35:26None of this happens without teamwork and I'm proud of the IT team's dedication to this

35:30vision but just as importantly I want to recognize the collaboration across departments, business

35:35units and corporate teams.

35:37Every milestone we've reached has been a shared effort.

35:40IT's role is to enable and support, not in isolation but in partnership.

35:45The trust we've built across the organization is what allows us to co-deliver meaningful

35:49outcomes.

35:51Technology is a powerful tool but it's the people and the partnerships behind it that

35:55drive the real change.

35:57So together we're building a more connected, responsive and effective city.

36:01So let's keep moving forward, let's keep building together.

36:05Thank you.

36:09Thank you Mr. Fisher.

36:11Congratulations and work well done.

36:13We can see today a lot of good information there.

36:16Are there any questions?

36:18Councillor Alden and then Councillor Puse.

36:19Thank you very much Chair Downer.

36:22Thank you very much for the presentation.

36:24It's truly appreciated.

36:25I think that the hot button issue is always for people the threats from AI and this might

36:31sound facetious but it's not.

36:33I'm wondering if we have, quote, good robust protection from a terminator style cyber threat

36:42and I'm quite serious about that.

36:45That's what people are talking about.

36:47How do we address that given that any sort of internet and computer security is always

36:53playing catch up everything from song downloading to the first time somebody hacked something.

37:00How do we deal with that?

37:03Through you Councillor Downer to Councillor Ralt.

37:05Thank you for that very important question.

37:08In cybersecurity yes, we are always playing a little bit of catch up.

37:11I can't get into details of our cybersecurity program due to confidentiality but just know

37:15that we have a robust cybersecurity program which we are always aiming to improve upon

37:21and continue to keep pace with the threats that are being seen in the industry.

37:28Thank you.

37:29I relish your efforts.

37:30Thank you.

37:36Yes, thank you.

37:37Thank you, Madam Chair.

37:38Thank you very much for the presentation, Mr. Fisher.

37:40I have a question about AI.

37:41I have to say this summer our university student summer camp coordinators blew me away with

37:49using AI at summer camp for administration and writing letters and all sorts of things.

37:55I was quite impressed by that.

37:57My question is about your AI and you talked about working across departments in pulling

38:04together the guidelines which is you always need a good framework.

38:07So thank you and kudos for that.

38:09My question is is there also an across the city team looking at the next iteration of

38:17the strategic plan, service delivery plan, customer service, ways to use AI?

38:22I asked this because Councillor Goller, myself and Councillor Katelyn are on public health

38:28and we had a not too long ago presentation on AI and reducing phone volumes and just

38:35the improvements there.

38:36I was quite impressed by that as well.

38:39Just if you can tell me a little bit kind of forward, what the next iteration, what

38:43the next loop is going to be?

38:46We are really looking at, as I mentioned in my presentation, the vision is not yet determined

38:50but we are actively working on it in IT and across departments around the organization.

38:55We are really looking at opportunities where AI can have a large impact with a low lift.

39:00So high impact, low lift.

39:02So the phases of this, we are going to work throughout the organization, build out our

39:07kind of guiding principles vision around AI, start working to develop some use cases around

39:12it which are going to be able to provide the highest value for the organization and then

39:16start bringing forward those opportunities.

39:24Any other questions?

39:26Councillor Billings?

39:28Councillor Ture.

39:29Sure you, Madam Chair.

39:32Still on AI.

39:35So you talked about leveraging and with the expertise and capabilities, we have these

39:41operational efficiencies.

39:43So down the road, because we are putting in, you said around $30 million in capital spending

39:48over the next 10 years.

39:50So do you see down the road using more and more AI that we will have more corporate cost

39:56savings because of these efficiencies, whether corporate or within IT?

40:01Do you see that happening?

40:04Thank you Councillor Billings.

40:05Through Councillor Downard, Councillor Billings, I want to say yes.

40:09It's very difficult to predict the future of the crystal ball but yes, through all of

40:14these platforms, they drive data-driven decision making, data analysis and elimination of manual

40:21processes.

40:22So I can only say yes.

40:24There should be some level of efficiency cost savings driven from these programs but I caution

40:30in the same verbiage of the fact that it may not see reductions.

40:35We look at these enhancements to support our growth as an organization and as an organization

40:41we are growing and so we need to be able to support the growth of the organization and

40:44this is an excellent tool to help support that growth while maintaining cost levels.

40:49Thanks, Anne.

40:50Thank you.

40:53Thank you.

40:54Councillor Chew.

40:56Thank you, through you Madam Chair.

40:59Speaking of crystal ball, I'm just looking on page 15 of the forecast.

41:03Can you just explain what's happening in 2029 and 2034?

41:11Page 15 of the forecast.

41:12The capital budgets?

41:172029, sorry.

41:21Through you Councillor Downard to Councillor Chew, I apologize.

41:22I don't have my detailed listing of what's occurring in those years.

41:28I'm just looking at the bike that's being played.

41:312029 is their corporate or customer relationship management system or CRM which is the very

41:37large bike in 2029.

41:39Thank you.

41:40And what about 2034?

41:42Is that the very low spike?

41:43Yeah.

41:44So the vast majority of our work is infrastructure renewal along with new modern enhancement

41:49and so with that you get a bit of an ebb and flow in regards to the capital budget.

41:53So that is just simply the natural ebb and flow cycle with our infrastructure renewal

41:57programs.

41:58Councillor Katelyn, did you have a question?

42:07Yes.

42:08Thank you, through you to staff.

42:12I brought this up in the public health meeting too.

42:15Are we going to be considering the use of AI against our climate change targets because

42:22AI does have a very climate heavy footprint?

42:30Through Councillor Downard to Councillor Katelyn.

42:32So as we evaluate the overall process, we will be looking at the ethical and the environmental

42:36impacts of the AI as well to better understand kind of how we're going to be leveraging it

42:41in moving forward.

42:45Thank you.

42:46And also, are we going to be having a double check on some of the data because there have

42:53been a lot of issues with AI hallucinations and things like that where it's only as good

42:59as the data that they're pulling from.

43:02So how are we going to be addressing that?

43:05Thank you very much.

43:06Yeah, in regards to that question, that is really kind of like a similar to the other

43:09one as part of this overall process, we're going to be looking at what controls we put

43:12in place.

43:13You're very right.

43:14AI should be assisting not making judgment.

43:17And so that's the way we kind of look at it as AI is a tool and assistant.

43:21It is not the case of making the judgment and we don't want to take the human aspect

43:25out of it.

43:26And yes, there are cases of bias hallucinations which need to be made sure that they are addressed

43:31and understood as we start to utilize these tools.

43:35Great.

43:37Thank you so much.

43:39Are there any other questions?

43:42Okay.

43:43Thank you, Adam.

43:44Thank you very much for your time today.

43:47This was just a presentation so there are no motions to, to, for receipt.

43:54So we're going to go on to the next portion of the agenda, which is public services.

44:00And there you are both items for discussion.

44:04So the first one is the WSIB impacts for emergency services.

44:10And we will have a presentation by Chief Dewar and Aramedic Chief and Fire Chief Stephen

44:17Good and Paul Allen, Manager of Employee Health, Safety and Wellness.

44:22And I want to point out, Councillors, that this is a really good foundational report and

44:27information to another report later on in the agenda, which is the second quarter budget

44:35monitoring report.

44:48Deputy CAO Colleen Collack, I wish she was going to start us off with a few comments first.

44:53Thank you.

44:54Thank you.

44:55And good afternoon, everyone.

44:57So as mentioned, the purpose of this report is to share information with you on WSIB as

45:02it relates to first responders, specifically today, speaking about Guelph Fire Services

45:08and Guelph Wellington Paramedic Services.

45:10It's important to recognize that we as a city employ a number of people who are on the front

45:14line in emergency situations.

45:17These staff members face unique risks such as exposure to trauma, danger and high stress

45:22situations that increase the risk of physical and mental health issues.

45:28Early intervention and investing in care for our first responders is critical, which is

45:31why the city has programs to support staff and why provincial legislation has been amended

45:37within recent years to allow first responders who are suffering injury or illness with the

45:41ability to make WSIB claims more easily.

45:45Mental health injuries in fire services and paramedic services continue to drive lost

45:50time hours and resulting WSIB claims.

45:53And while these programs are effective, there are impacts to the city as we have to maintain

45:57staffing numbers to provide effective service, which has resulted in budget variances caused

46:03by overtime.

46:04And so through this presentation today and in the accompanying report, we wanted to provide

46:08you with information on WSIB as it pertains, again, specifically to first responders and

46:14the operational impacts for fire and GWPS.

46:18I will say that of course, GWF police services has similar impacts from WSIB.

46:24That's out of the scope of our immediate reporting or structure here for the city.

46:29And so certainly you may want to consider asking, especially for those of you on the

46:32GWF police services board, follow up questions of the police chief in terms of how WSIB is

46:37impacting GWF police services.

46:40We also wanted to give you some insight into the mitigation measures currently in place.

46:44And so as chair Downer has mentioned, we have Paul Allen, the manager of health and

46:48safety here.

46:50Steve Good, our fairly new fire chief, I can still say fairly new chief Good.

46:55And Steven Dewar, our chief of well-follied and paramedic services.

46:58And we also have Karen Newland here from our financial services team who can assist with

47:02any questions you may have about the financial impacts.

47:06Just also of note also on the consent agenda today is the 2025 second quarter budget monitoring

47:12report.

47:13And I note that because it has a recommendation to adjust the budget specifically for GWF

47:18well-filling and paramedic services to account for the budget variance and to maximize the

47:22funding received from the province.

47:24And we'll also be bringing similar information to the joint social services and land ambulance

47:28committee on this at a later date.

47:31And chief Dewar will speak more to that.

47:33So with that, I will turn it over, I think, first to Paul Allen.

47:38Good afternoon, everyone.

47:42I just wanted to deliver some key messages.

47:44So Workplace Safety and Insurance Act sets out provisions for benefits and compensation

47:49for employees who suffer injury or illness because of their employment.

47:54WSIB presumptive legislation, which was originally introduced in Ontario in 2007, creates a legal

48:02presumption that specific diseases or injuries are work related for workers in designated

48:08occupations or processes such as firefighters and paramedics.

48:13This legislation aims to streamline the claims process by assuming a link between employment

48:18and the condition, requiring WSIB to approve the claim unless non-work related factors

48:25can definitively rebut the presumption.

48:29Presumptive coverage was expanded in 2016 to include post-traumatic stress disorder

48:35for all first responders and other designated workers, including firefighters and paramedics,

48:41as established in the Supporting Ontario's First Responders Act, which created a legal

48:46presumption that PTSD in certain first responders is work related, which thus expedites access

48:54to WSIB benefits and treatment.

48:57This law was a response to the complex and often traumatic nature of first responder

49:02work, which makes proving a direct link between a workplace event and PTSD challenging.

49:08WSIB presumptive legislation therefore shifts the burden to employers to prove a work related

49:16illness or injury isn't occupational, which creates challenges in gathering evidence to

49:21rebut claims, especially for diseases with non-occupational causes.

49:27As a Schedule II employer, the city is responsible for the entire cost of the claim plus an administration

49:33fee, which in 2025 was just recently confirmed at 17.24%.

49:38Further, WSIB's own figures have shown significant rising costs for Schedule II employers across

49:45the province.

49:47Organizationally, in line with other municipalities, we have significantly seen an increase in

49:52WSIB claim costs year over year, particularly related to health care, most of which are

49:59going towards mental stress claims from paramedics and fire.

50:04Just one final note I did want to introduce, though.

50:07The city does provide specialized trauma care support for first responders through our Homewood

50:12Health EFAP program.

50:15Our quarterly reports from Homewood indicate approximately a 20% utilization rate of the

50:20city's program as a whole, which is significantly higher than Homewood's average utilization

50:25for their other municipal clients.

50:27I will pass over to Steve Good.

50:35Good afternoon.

50:38The introduction of presumptive legislation has significantly helped our staff, who as

50:44first responders face highly stressful and traumatic situations often.

50:50Firing fires is essential, yet dangerous work.

50:54The city has invested in providing personal protective equipment to help prevent traumatic

50:59situations.

51:00But to know, this equipment doesn't shield them from the cancer risk.

51:07Chemical flame retardants, found in furniture, produce thicker, blacker, more toxic smoke

51:14than ever before.

51:17Fires are at significant risk of cancer.

51:21In fact, studies have shown that the rates could be four times higher than your general

51:26population.

51:28Operationally, the impact of unplanned absences, including WSIB claims, does present a challenge

51:36for our service.

51:38Under the collective agreement, we have a minimum staffing requirement.

51:43We must utilize overtime to backfill any absences that are unplanned, ensuring that

51:50we meet these requirements and can provide an effective delivery of service.

51:55We have seen exponential growth in WSIB lost time hours between 2020 and 2024, accounting

52:04for 34% of the total unplanned absence in 2024.

52:11Absenteeism, combined with our minimum standards, has meant that we have to backfill staff, which

52:15drives up our overtime.

52:18Despite the increases in absentee hours, fire services has been able to reduce and contain

52:24the amount of overtime hours due to staffing strategies that we put in place.

52:30In addition to the corporate employee family assistance program and specialized trauma

52:34care support, fire has made significant investments, in my view, in training and supporting

52:40of staff, which includes our own internal peer support team.

52:45I'll pass the mic to Chief Doher.

52:56Thank you and good afternoon.

52:59Of course, like fire services, the strain of providing care for people in traumatic situations

53:06has impacts on our paramedics' mental health, again, much like it does for our firefighters.

53:14We care for that to the best of our ability.

53:18Like fire department, we don't have minimum staffing built into our collective agreement,

53:23but we do need to replace staff.

53:25We have response time targets that are set by US Council each year that are submitted

53:31to the province required by provincial legislation.

53:34In order to meet those targets, our ambulances need to be fully staffed.

53:40Staffing is determined or was determined by the number of ambulances that were staffed

53:44back when the city assumed the service back in 2009, and then the incremental increases

53:50that you've added over the years.

53:52Again, that's based on consultants' work to determine with computer modeling exactly

53:59what's required to meet the response time targets that you ask us to achieve.

54:06Unplanned absences do require backfilling.

54:09However, unlike fire services, we have a staffing model that employs part-time paramedics.

54:15We can utilize those first to replace vacancies, and the costs associated with our WSIB absences

54:24is a combination of our part-time staffing and also our overtime hours.

54:28Part-time staffing is used to replace our injuries that are predictable, vacations, etc., but

54:34also the unpredictable vacancies such as WSIB that you've seen in your report.

54:40Our last time hours from WSIB have been relatively consistent in the past two years.

54:46However, unlike the fire department, our WSIB lost time hours represent more than half of

54:51all of our unplanned absences.

54:55Specific to our paramedic service, a little bit different than other departments in the

54:58city, we receive a grant from the province equal to one half of our budget for the previous

55:06year.

55:07We emphasize that it's budget and not actuals, so not our negative variance.

55:11So that when we encounter a negative variance, and in this case caused by WSIB, the cost

55:18of that variance is absorbed by the city and the county and is not included in the grant

55:25for the next year from the province.

55:28And so that is why in the future report, in the report this afternoon, you'll be asked

55:34to consider changing the budget so that that would be reflected in next year's grant from

55:38the province.

55:39I just want to emphasize that we recognize aside from the costs and talking to you about

55:47the costs, we do know the human factor and that we do have strategies similar to what

55:51fire department has and working with our peers in HR.

55:56We do have strategies to try to care for our paramedics and to provide them with educational

56:02opportunities and the services that they need when they do suffer an injury.

56:08So in conclusion, it's important for as an employer to support our first responders and

56:15to ensure that they're employing strategies to limit the injuries and illnesses and assist

56:20our staff in dealing with trauma.

56:22There are a number of strategies being utilized currently to support staff to manage the absenteeism

56:28and to contain operating costs.

56:30However, WSIB costs are continuing to rise.

56:36We're expecting that as the stigma associated with mental health is further reduced, that

56:42we will see more claims for mental health injuries in the future.

56:46Paramedics and firefighters face significant physical and psychological risks due to exposure

56:51to hazardous environments, infectious materials, traumatic events, toxic chemicals, and the

56:57potential for violence and accidents.

57:00These hazards can result in injuries, chronic illnesses, post-traumatic stress disorder,

57:05depression, anxiety, burnout, and even suicide.

57:09It's essential to recognize these risks and continue to support the vital work that our

57:15paramedics and firefighters do every day.

57:21Thank you, Chief Dewar.

57:23That's a good note to end on.

57:28It's not an easy job being a first responder and it has its consequences, I'm sure, as

57:33a career choice sometimes.

57:36Okay, so before we go to questions, if somebody could put the motion on the floor, which is

57:44basically to receive the report and also to forward it to the Joint Social Services and

57:49Land Ambulance Committee for Information, which I believe would be the next week's meeting,

57:54that it would be going to Councillor Allt, Councillor Richardson in second.

57:59Okay, any questions?

58:00Councillor Allt?

58:02Thank you very much, Chair Downer.

58:04Just a preface, I might need to call on Ms. O'Dwyer or Ms. Baker to ask to answer at

58:10least one of these.

58:13On page one of the report, there's reference to, and the third bullet from the bottom,

58:19Guelph Wellington Paramedic Services, multi-year budget WSIB rate adjustment increased significantly

58:27from 1.75 to 6.98% over about three years.

58:33Actual claims are funded from the reserve.

58:36Historically, the reserve balance has been 752,000 driven by spike in mental health stress.

58:44My concern is actually a number that appears on page two.

58:49The balance at this point is identified in the reserve as 3.6 million.

58:55Is that a healthy balance?

59:03Or somebody else to answer?

59:04Sorry.

59:05Yes.

59:06I can respond to that.

59:09So as far as that reserve balance goes, I would say that our, the WSIB reserve is potentially

59:18not funded to the target amount that it should be, and we do have a risk of that balance

59:24continuing to decline, and that puts our reserve in risk.

59:29So we would not want to see that reserve to continue to decline.

59:33So to reiterate then what I had heard is there a possibility that in our upcoming budget,

59:41we will need to examine what we need for a healthy reserve?

59:47Yes.

59:48So we are always monitoring our reserves as you're aware when we come through to the budget.

59:55And through the 2026 budget update, we are focusing on the reserves and those balances.

1:00:01And you'll get an update through that, through the 2026 budget update.

1:00:05And thank you very much.

1:00:07I'll come back to staff in a couple of seconds, but I think this one is actually for the paramedics.

1:00:13If I've got it right, I hope I have it right.

1:00:18On page three, no, it's fire services.

1:00:22I think it is.

1:00:23On page three, it states that there's to be a minimum of 28 staff on duty.

1:00:28I think it's fire services.

1:00:31I was wondering if you could comment on that.

1:00:33Are we approaching a point of no return?

1:00:37Because I acknowledge that stress, stigma, and the reduction of stigma associated with such things

1:00:45as mental health standards, well-being, and even such things as concussion has been reducing,

1:00:52and thereby increasing our numbers.

1:00:54Where are we at right now?

1:00:56Do we need to look at these numbers?

1:00:57Through the chair to the Councillor, many years ago, they put these numbers together

1:01:03in their collective agreement.

1:01:04Many fire services do not have this language in their collective agreements.

1:01:08From my perspective, if somebody is injured at work, whether it's psychological or traumatic,

1:01:14we do backfill through overtime.

1:01:16And today we have not struggled with the staffing levels that we require.

1:01:21So I would not recommend making any increases to the minimum staffing at this point.

1:01:27I do apologize.

1:01:28I didn't realize this was a collective bargaining issue as we framed it.

1:01:32It looks like Ms. Baker wants to comment as well.

1:01:35Not just for clarity, not on this particular question.

1:01:39I was going to go back.

1:01:41I got another one for you.

1:01:42You can finish out if you've got follow-up on your question there to the Chief.

1:01:50I just wanted to add a little bit of clarity or a little bit more detail on the

1:01:54WSAB reserve and the budget strategy that we've used to date.

1:01:59We have tried to, as part of our base budget, cover the in-year cost of WSAB

1:02:07plus then have an increment that goes into the reserve.

1:02:12And so that increment that goes into the reserve is then kept as a contingency

1:02:16because of everything that you've heard here today.

1:02:18There can be excess claims that are required to be paid out.

1:02:22And so really that's the point of keeping that WSAB reserve.

1:02:26That balance and that target, we bench to the actuarial results.

1:02:32We get the actuarial review every three years and we bench that reserve level to that liability.

1:02:40And we use that 25% of the liability as the target level to keep that WSAB reserve at.

1:02:46So I think just in terms of budget context, you will see us continue to reflect the budget,

1:02:54the base budget to cover this increasing kind of base cost over time.

1:02:59But then you're also going to, there'll be a continuation of that increased kind of contingency

1:03:05to the reserve to make sure that we've got enough on hand in the instance that there's a kind of

1:03:11claim in excess of what we were expecting. So just to provide a little bit more clarity on the

1:03:17budget strategy. Thank you very much. And I guess from that, Ms. O'Dwyer doesn't have to move from

1:03:23up in the cheap seats. The next question actually is possibly either for you, Ms. Baker, possibly for

1:03:31Ms. O'Dwyer or Ms. Clack. I'm coming at it from the perspective of police services and I'm chair

1:03:37finance there. One of the things that I appreciate about this is hearing from these two emergency

1:03:43services departments. What I'm lacking is a comparison with the police and I'm wondering if

1:03:51there is a way for our staff and police services staff, perhaps under the direction of Chief Kobe,

1:03:58to put together some comparative numbers so we understand where we are on all of our emergency

1:04:03services given that this is such a significant issue. So through the chair to council all

1:04:10certainly and as I mentioned in my introductory remarks, this report is before you because you

1:04:15are responsible for fire and paramedics as ultimately I am and Ms. Baker is because police is a

1:04:21separate board. I would suggest that it's probably the most appropriate for one of the board members

1:04:26yourself to make that request of Chief Kobe to perhaps have that report come to a police services

1:04:32board meeting. We could then take their direction certainly to have our finance teams work together

1:04:38to look at how we compile that into one aggregate of the comparative data but we would certainly

1:04:42need that direction to come from Chief Kobe and to the police services board. Thanks for the suggestion.

1:04:48I'll do that. Thank you. Councillor Richardson. Thank you for your chair, Downer and I want to thank

1:04:58both services for the work that they do and for the work that your teams do. It's incredibly

1:05:02difficult work and essential for sure. What I heard you speak a lot about was

1:05:08supports for staff who are already injured and I'm wondering if we have any proactive programs in

1:05:14place that can help employees build resiliency and recognize maybe the early signs and symptoms

1:05:22especially if it's going down you know when they're just maybe becoming their mental health is

1:05:27injured and they're not necessarily into a mental illness yet but the help them identify that early

1:05:32and seek treatment earlier. Through the councillor, sorry, through the chair, Councillor Richardson

1:05:43and I can start and Chief Good might be able to add something from the fire position. We certainly do

1:05:51in our education program, in our new employee recruit process, we do have

1:05:59experts come in and talk to people about building resiliency. We have programs on that way. We also

1:06:04have started a trial program last year with a local psychologist who provides services to

1:06:11paramedics, visits the stations, comes to their education sessions, help them in that way and

1:06:16then of course also provides them with priority appointments should they need it. But yes, we

1:06:23do the proactive training that way in addition to supporting Chief Good mentioned that they have a

1:06:29peer support team, so do we which is a you know a team of volunteers within the paramedic service

1:06:34that call each other when they do traumatic calls and we support them as much as we can. I guess

1:06:39that's not that's still not as much proactive but it supporting the team and trying to work that way

1:06:46is an effort. Similar to paramedic services are onboarding with firefighters includes

1:06:56mental health, resiliency, different strategies. Each and every responder is different in the

1:07:03way they manage their own and what they see and what they deal with. I can tell you that we do in

1:07:09my view have a robust corporate system for EFAP, Homewood Health Services and it's local. We also

1:07:19have an internal team of 20, so it's staff supporting staff. It's about a comfort level of staff going

1:07:26to a manager. We prefer actually staff to support staff. We do get some data on basically the

1:07:35connections and that staff is trained not to provide strategies moreover they're there to give them

1:07:43the coping mechanisms and to guide them to the services that they may require and happily report

1:07:50fire and paramedic services put a joint application for for provincial funding to help support it.

1:07:55It is costly. Our team does meet our peer support team meets quarterly and they do have an agenda and

1:08:03I'm able to view that agenda and basically they talk about certain events that they've put themselves

1:08:09forward and proactively if there's a significant event similar to paramedic services they will

1:08:16proactively have a little meeting with those that were involved to ensure that the responders know

1:08:23that there are supports available. Great thank you. Thank you Councillor Cossin and Councillor

1:08:31Turner. Yes thank you through you chair Downer to staff. Thank you very much for this report and

1:08:40my questions are in line with them Councillor Richardson's but I just would like to say

1:08:45thank you for all of the work that you do in emergency services. There's so many instances

1:08:50where I think wow like I would have no idea what to do in this circumstance when I read about them so

1:08:56thank you and in that same vein I can see how there can be significant impacts on people's mental

1:09:02health. Deep significant wounds that might last a lifetime and so I also thank you for bringing

1:09:09this forward for the opportunity to have the discussion about it because mental health is

1:09:13something that we all need to be discussing openly and we need to be having this public discourse

1:09:19about it on an ongoing basis because it's a challenge and I appreciate we're talking about

1:09:25budget and WSIB and numbers but I think at its core is that we have people who are deeply impacted

1:09:31and traumatized by what's happening to them and what they're seeing and we're asking them to do it

1:09:37as their job over and over again and so my question is around mental health I think Councillor Richardson

1:09:44addressed some of the initiatives and things that are ongoing. My question is in that same section

1:09:52with regard to the increase and there's a section that talks about how our executive team has increased

1:09:58mental health benefits for the non-union team members and you talked a little bit about the

1:10:03other initiatives that you're doing peer supported and then I know that you know benefits is one of

1:10:08those things maybe people want their privacy when they reach out different types of therapists

1:10:13so having that you know availability I think is something that's important so my question

1:10:17is with regard to what that increase to those benefits are and if they're significant because

1:10:23I don't know if I've booked my therapy sessions recently and they get close to 200 bucks a pot

1:10:30so if you're going that private route and I appreciate that there's other options here

1:10:34I think that the specialized trauma support program was mentioned with that 20% utilization rate

1:10:40but maybe maybe I'm and I can't make assumptions but people are going through

1:10:44the alternate route through their benefits so just curious about what that increase might be

1:10:50and and you know curious what part of what what the ongoing conversation with with the

1:10:56utilization of those benefits are. Through the chair to the Councillor our last negotiations

1:11:06with our local union well professional firefighters freely negotiated there was a piece in there that

1:11:13they have $3,000 for mental health supports I don't know what those utilize rate utilization

1:11:20rates are at this point so I'd have to get back to you on the actual rates of use but from what

1:11:27I'm hearing it's very supportive and it's manageable. Great thanks again. Thank you Councillor Bousatiel.

1:11:39Thank you and through you chair thank you for on page eight you were talking about the mental health

1:11:44grant and it was one of my questions what is solgen solgen what is that?

1:11:51Oh solicitor general got it okay I thought it was some new grant name following that I did

1:11:57have a question and thank you for all the work that you're doing you've outlined in there the team

1:12:02the peer all of that capacity you're building across the system my question is about backfilling

1:12:08and you know the labor market being what it is part-time employees my question is and using I

1:12:15understand it's the strategy of of part-time employees to backfill before over time so my

1:12:22question is how is that pool and is recruitment and retention a concern and how does it look

1:12:30going ahead for labor force? Through you chair downer to Councillor Bousatiel

1:12:41we recruit part-time paramedics we have in this case two sessions annually

1:12:48recruiting people as they come out of college historically it's worked fairly well in that

1:12:53someone just coming out of college works part-time against experience and then is in line for the

1:13:00first full-time job that comes available the labor market has changed in the last couple of years

1:13:05where it is increasingly difficult to recruit people we are in competition with our neighbouring

1:13:11paramedic services I believe after the last recruit class in May as college has graduated

1:13:17to their employee we made 35 job offers and at 11 people join our service and those others joined

1:13:24other services in the in the area it is still a model that's less costly than paying overtime and

1:13:34plus with a number of absences it simply burns people out when you ask them to work on all of

1:13:40their days off so it's a model that we haven't we're not moving away from at this point but it

1:13:45is a concern for us. Through the chair just a quick supplemental are there enough graduates

1:13:52from the program you mentioned 35 job offers 11 successful is that pool growing

1:13:59through the provincial allocation of training and so on. Again through you chair councillor

1:14:06Bustill the number of students is actually growing. Conestoga College graduated I believe 40 people

1:14:13last year this year their intake is 100 so they're aware provincially as paramedic services we have

1:14:20discussed with the colleges the need to increase that that demand they've also added a second cohort

1:14:25that starts in in January and graduated in August and so we have another recruit going on right now

1:14:33to attract people that graduated more recently so we are working on that uh pool provincially

1:14:40we've also had discussions about combining the number of hours and hiring full-time float people

1:14:46as opposed to just temporary people it's another strategy it's um all part of our sort of toolbox

1:14:54if I could. Are there any other questions councillor Hauser? It's a question I believe. Thank you thank

1:15:06you. Through you chair downer just wanted to clarify when you said you had 35 job offers out and 11

1:15:14hired does that mean you were 24 people short or you had 11 spots and it took you 35

1:15:20you know like sending out after people were refusing. Through you chair downer

1:15:26the number that we need is a little bit flexible and that the people that you hire work more hours

1:15:31if there's less people we targeted basically to be frank at least 20 people based on the

1:15:38number of hours that we had there were 35 good candidates and so we could hire 35 and have

1:15:44the hours spread out by more people again we ended up with 11 people finished trained and now on the

1:15:52road so they're working more hours good for them but also more difficult to schedule.

1:16:00Thank you. Councillor Billings. Through you Madam Chair and I'm sorry if I missed this but I just

1:16:09a couple of questions for clarity page 5 it's your fire services operations and communications

1:16:16but that communications that doesn't include our 9-1-1 communicators does it like this is separate

1:16:26through the chair to the councillor yes it does they're called alarm room technicians so they do

1:16:31call processing including picking up the phones for 9-1-1 and dispatching resources so it's all

1:16:38our 9-1-1. Correct correct that's included in this. Okay the reason I wanted clarity through you

1:16:47Madam Chair was because I thought I used it fell under the police budget but I didn't understand.

1:16:53Through the chair to Councillor Billings if I can just clarify Chief Good is absolutely correct

1:16:58that this is the fire services 9-1-1 dispatchers just I think what you're asking so when you call

1:17:039-1-1 in Guelph the call first goes through to Guelph police services they take the initial call

1:17:08and then if it is a fire related call it gets transferred to Guelph fire and Guelph fire handles

1:17:14the dispatch call from that point forward and you're speaking with a Guelph fire dispatcher

1:17:18so depending on the nature likewise for paramedics you would be transferred to the provincial

1:17:24ambulance dispatch center in Cambridge so I think both are both are correct in terms of how

1:17:30Chief Good answered that these are 9-1-1 dispatchers in fire but to your point the initial call does

1:17:34come through Guelph police. Okay thanks for that clarity and the other thing it's the same table

1:17:40the overtime hours and the and the and the big spike in 2022 any any particular thing you can

1:17:50pinpoint that to whether more calls for service or what happened in 2022? Through the chair to the

1:18:00counselor to be fair and honest I do not know this is post COVID but we many of them were due to

1:18:12sickness. Okay okay well thank you for that last question and I was like debating do I don't I do

1:18:21I don't I but you know you you watch shows like with respect to mental health and how psychedelics

1:18:29can have some positive effects and I was just wondering have we gone down that path or no I'll

1:18:35just go high level. Through you Madam Chair we don't get necessarily involved in the treatment

1:18:47so much that would be again we have contracted with a psychologist who is very familiar with our

1:18:56profession visits our paramedics proactively and then provides care I actually can't answer whether

1:19:04part of his treatment regime involves psychedelics I'm familiar with that I've read the reports but

1:19:08I don't know if that's what's being prescribed. Okay thanks. Are there any other questions from

1:19:19council? Okay I think we'll go to the question thank you again for the presentation and a lot of us

1:19:27already expressed our appreciation of the work that the first responders do.

1:19:33Is there anyone opposed? Okay that passes thank you. Okay we're going to move on to

1:19:445.2 the graffiti bylaw and we're going to ask Mayor Guthrie to speak to this item

1:19:54and you have there is no staff report this is the motion that the mayor has brought forward

1:20:01and you have a motion in front of us which I presume he will move.

1:20:06Thank you Chair and through you to my colleagues. Well right off the bat I just want to say thank

1:20:12you I've talked to a few of you talked to a few of you even just before the meeting I have

1:20:17an hour ago I think or so I sent an email to everybody just indicating that I've listened

1:20:23to some of my colleagues feedback and I agreed with you on on that feedback and so I've actually

1:20:30I'm going to change the direction to go here today if it's the will of committee

1:20:39and here it is here so before I read it out loud it's just that I

1:20:48originally was more very prescriptive I guess that's probably the better word to say

1:20:52and really giving direction to do something create an actual bylaw draft bylaw and come back

1:20:59and speaking to some of my colleagues it's more like I guess I'm just kind of going a

1:21:03little bit higher level without being as prescriptive and asking staff to review and compile options

1:21:09and to come back and and then you know maybe a bylaw is is right maybe it's not maybe it's a

1:21:15combination of both or something else I don't know that's that's their prerogative to give us

1:21:20their best advice on that when they come back they're still okay with the end of Q1 2026

1:21:26on the time frame and since you know this kind of has bubbled up in the community over the last

1:21:32little while there's been some reach out for people to be like hey is there an opportunity

1:21:37for volunteerism to come together as a community to engage in cleaning some things up what about

1:21:42murals and art and so I put some of that in there at public education campaigns

1:21:49and and the final thing I would just say the partnerships with faster removal on private

1:21:53property you know most of the things that are being tagged are like either provincial like you

1:21:59know bridges and and and concrete columns and such all the canada post boxes the hydro boxes like

1:22:06and and those actually aren't city assets right you think about what many of us got emails about

1:22:14over the last little while with the Metrolinx bridge and stuff like that our staff are doing a

1:22:21great job when they are notified that they are they are actually contacting the owner of of those

1:22:27assets but then there's like this huge like delay and it's like well maybe you should do it or

1:22:33they're responsible and so I'm just wondering if there's a ways while staff are being directed

1:22:39to go and review this to come back with maybe better ways of having some partnerships and

1:22:44agreements with other owners of those assets to be a bit more diligent if I could say that word

1:22:51in in in the removal um yeah I just you know look I I'll just end on this I I have found

1:23:01that this is a growing problem and I'm getting a lot more complaints about it and uh in all this

1:23:10I'll be blunt there's some there's some in the public realm especially in our downtown core

1:23:15some buildings that are vacant that are are not to the standard of what I think our public realm

1:23:22should be inviting towards and uh so there could be a property standards and get a connection here

1:23:30and I don't know that's why that's why we I think the direction here is the best

1:23:34it's higher level for our staff to come back I did I want to acknowledge Colleen Quackbush to

1:23:39help me with the wording here a little bit uh and then my colleagues as well for sort of

1:23:44redefining it a bit so with that I'll move it Councillor Goller has agreed to second it for me

1:23:49and I'll just stop there thank you chair okay thank you so I'll just go around um for the questions so

1:24:02Councillor Caron and then Guller and then Alt

1:24:11on this side Bousatil okay Councillor Caron great thank you um and thank you

1:24:19Margaritory for bringing it forward it certainly I think we all Aaron sorry yeah we visually see

1:24:25um kind of did the what happens when graffiti kind of crosses a line so um I do think it's worthy

1:24:33of a of a civic discussion um thank you as well for changing the scope of what your recommendation

1:24:39was going to be you know if if you and if I missed your call I'm sorry but if you had called me I

1:24:44would have encouraged you to go in this direction of broadening the scope um I also think that there's

1:24:51probably bylaws out there already so when in clause one where you've put bring back options

1:24:58I don't know whether it's an amendment but options and best practices because I do think that when

1:25:03we do a bylaw review we often look at other existing bylaws and other municipalities so that

1:25:09we don't have to reinvent the wheel so that would be hopefully a friendly amendment to add the word

1:25:14and best practices to that motion um apparently if staff think that's needed as direction uh

1:25:25otherwise if that's what you're going to do normally we don't do a best practice review until the

1:25:29bylaw um process is underway so is that something that you would be awaiting council direction to

1:25:38actually go out and do public engagement on a bylaw or would you do a best practice review before

1:25:44you enter into a public engagement process so through council or through chair downer to

1:25:49councillor Caron um we actually we brought an information report to council back in 2017

1:25:54regarding a graffiti bylaw that at that time we did do a scan um we will update that given given the

1:26:00motion the way that it is worded now our intent is to bring you back a report in q1226 it'll probably

1:26:05be an update to that 2017 information report we will include a fairly high level scan of what

1:26:12other municipalities are doing um but really bring back those options for your consideration

1:26:17and take that direction from at that time in terms of community engagement i think we would wait till

1:26:24after the q1 report because after the q1 report you may say put your pens down and stop versus

1:26:30proceed with bringing back a bylaw at that point that's when we would undertake the broader community

1:26:35engagement so what i am understanding the motion to be and obviously if the mover agrees is that

1:26:40this is us bringing you back a report in q1 with options it will include a high level scan of

1:26:45sort of other other best practices as you've referred to it and then uh seek your direction

1:26:51at that time as to whether to proceed further okay great so i'm hearing that you don't need

1:26:56an amendment to the motions on the floor which is great um and then another question to staff

1:27:02is that we heard the last time i believe mr godfrey was before us that the capacity of the

1:27:08department to enter into bylaw reviews was limited so i'm wondering what is coming off the work plan

1:27:16or what is being delayed in the work plan in this department in order to do this uh this additional

1:27:23work uh through uh chair downer at this point we can accommodate this the wording of this motion

1:27:29and bringing back the report in q1 2026 primarily because we have that pre-work already done from

1:27:34the previous information report um if you give what we will do at that time is let you know that if

1:27:39you want us to proceed with the development of a bylaw and the community engagement process

1:27:43that's where we will have to identify what would come off the work plan i will also say that at

1:27:48that time we will also be identifying what budget resources are required um because uh we do not

1:27:54proactively remove graffiti off city property right now because uh we are not obligated to

1:27:59and if you direct us to bring forward a bylaw then we would also be uh letting you know that we

1:28:04would need to have budget resources added into the 2027 operating budget because we would then

1:28:08need to comply with our own bylaw as well we do we do deal with a graffiti that is offensive

1:28:15more quickly but we don't deal with more run-of-the-mill uh graffiti as quickly as we would need to

1:28:20have this bylaw were to come into effect so we will identify resources to get the work done as well

1:28:25as budget resources to then implement the bylaw at the time that we bring you this report uh in

1:28:30q126 okay great thanks and and given that there the scope has changed i think i can support

1:28:40okay uh thank you so the next one is council goer thank you and three turn down there um

1:28:46your worship thank you for bringing this forward i've heard from many of my constituents who were

1:28:51quite supportive of this i did have a question about the second clause uh and that does work

1:28:56under way uh for faster removal on private property be considered could you or maybe if this came

1:29:02from staff help me understand uh why it's on private property and not private and public property

1:29:08because as i understand it the bulk of the the graffiti that that that happens is on on on either

1:29:16municipally owned land or land owned by metro links or other agencies uh through the chair i can comment

1:29:24and then i'll turn to margothry we do as i stated previously we do not proactively remove graffiti

1:29:30and we don't have the budget resources to do that now so if you were to direct us to remove the

1:29:35graffiti faster we would in fact need the budget resources now to do that what i'm asking is the

1:29:42second clause says to explore solutions for partnerships for removal on private property

1:29:49could those partnerships not also work for public property i'm just wondering why we define that

1:29:56otherwise i would have a friendly amendment to say for faster removal on public and private

1:30:02property so through the chair to councillor goller we can't have private citizens are removing

1:30:07graffiti off of public property for liability reasons we would have to have city staff or contracted

1:30:12um uh support to do that um and so again i'll i'll defer to margothry um obviously because

1:30:19it's his motion um but specifically for the city operations um we don't have the ability within

1:30:26our current budget resources to go any faster with the graffiti removal until we come back to you and

1:30:30seek that direction thank you and then as a follow-up to that what when we say private property

1:30:37i understand non-minicipal what about federal or provincial property is that also considered to

1:30:43be private property to us yes okay perfect so so this could include volunteer groups or partnerships

1:30:51to do a removal of mailboxes and off those other public spaces that are not city owned

1:31:02through if through through the chair if the private property owner agreed if i understand

1:31:06the second wording it is that we are to consider it and we will look at options we cannot compel a

1:31:11private property owner um we can just work with them and i will say publicly most private property

1:31:18owners now work with us very well um we have we do not have a lot of concerns and i want to make

1:31:23sure that i do state that we have a lot of great private property owners who already work very well

1:31:28with us regarding the removal of graffiti we will amplify those efforts we'll do the public

1:31:33education campaign i think it's already on the gps website if you go look there's resources there

1:31:38about graffiti and talking about the faster removal is better so we will continue to work with

1:31:44private property owners okay okay thank you so much um and so that i understand the timing

1:31:49a report comes to us by the end of q1 between now and the end of q1 2026 will this consultation with

1:31:57community volunteer groups happen to see what's possible as part of the second motion or is that

1:32:02happening after the report through the chair after so we will consider what those options are

1:32:14if there's anything that we can do i apologize for using the phrase low hanging fruit if there's

1:32:19anything we can continue to do in the meantime we will um but we we will come back to you at the

1:32:25end of q1 2026 with the broader suggested plan okay thank you for that clarification i'm happy

1:32:30to support this motion thank you councillor old thank you very much chair downer i will also

1:32:38support the modified amendment that's being brought forward i think it is very important this is a

1:32:44bit long-winded as usual to remember that not all graffiti is created equally and and i think what's

1:32:52really important is for us to remember that one of the principal foundations of christianity the best

1:32:57way to put it is that jesus finished found in the catacombs of roam which was graffiti and so

1:33:03consequently we need to look at banksy the owners wishes of a particular property the burlin wall

1:33:09and many other places where graffiti was sanctioned officially or not sanctioned but approved

1:33:16regardless and this is one of one of my significant concerns the rail lines throughout toronto are

1:33:22littered with graffiti on private property and i don't expect that we are going to be taking any

1:33:28action against that similarly i have and i hope that count what that staff will consider this

1:33:34the there are issues of freedom of expression certainly you can't go around spray painting

1:33:39city hall or whatever but i do believe the city in the past actually sanctioned graffiti on storm

1:33:45water grates and that was fish at one point to show that that water was was for fish and nobody

1:33:51took it down my other concern about volunteers is the use of toxins if toxins are being used on

1:33:57public and private space that has an impact on storm water i think we have another question

1:34:03all together and i appreciate that's a lot of work for staff i hope that we can round it all up

1:34:08by q1 because this is a massive issue hey thank you um i think our skateboard park

1:34:20sanctions graffiti that's another good one yes it's permissive yes yes unless it was offensive

1:34:27and then it would be removed um okay uh council class and then council katin uh thank you

1:34:37through you chair um i i have a few comments and first of all i'll just start with thanks for

1:34:44bringing this forward america 3 i also you know ward 2 we hear a lot of complaints about graffiti so

1:34:49having it addressed i think publicly is important and i appreciate the amendment that you made to

1:34:55take away the onus from business owners that is something that i heard from constituents as a

1:34:59real concern and uh last week i was sitting in an attractions committee meeting um and i heard from

1:35:06the you know you know not in an official capacity but i heard some of the concerns uh that business

1:35:12owners had uh with putting it on to them many business owners downtown guelph have had to

1:35:18repaint the walls several times to a great cost to them individually and so i do appreciate the

1:35:24adjustment and i also would like to just take a minute to talk about some of the work that had

1:35:29been done historically on the attractions committee um i want to shout out to lauren from bars and

1:35:34bells who who has been talking about mural art as a form of prevention graffiti prevention for a

1:35:41long time and that was in the previous iteration of the attractions committee and so it's been

1:35:46something that's been you know talked about ongoing um and then um to to move forward um to last

1:35:54week i was speaking with um a few a few of the members of the attractions committee about crime

1:35:59prevention through environmental design and so this is a real school of thought around how our

1:36:05spaces our public spaces are set up um to encourage people to to respect them and to not

1:36:12from commit crime so i'm gonna you know quickly shout to to to counsellor all i think there's a

1:36:19real distinction between graffiti and mural art and when we have when we have asked you know

1:36:25community members in the past to spray paint our you know pothole or our our pot covers it that it's

1:36:32intentional it's created you know in through intention and um on purpose and now there is a

1:36:38you there is like some flexibility in in in that definition agreed um but i think that for a

1:36:44there's a lot of offensive and unwanted um art i don't think it's art i think it's graffiti um when

1:36:51we when we put something intentional into a space so going back to in crime prevention through

1:36:55environmental design when we use good lighting and when we use art and we use other you know public

1:37:00art as a mechanism to avoid these things we we actually create spaces that people want to be

1:37:05in and the eyes are on and so i think it's really important that we actually put our eyes on spaces

1:37:09that are um that are constantly being um graffiti there's there's a few places that i think you

1:37:15know have it have it happen constantly and so i'm gonna you know round about in a very strange round

1:37:20about way make a plug to our culture plan that needs funding um you know art and and lighting

1:37:27and the work that is being done by you know our various various groups um needs funding so that we

1:37:34can we can you know be intentional about this type of work um you know that's just a little bit of a

1:37:40plug on the side and i you know like phil i feel like i'm i'm i'm starting to ramble however um i

1:37:47would also just like to say the Attractions Committee also funded five murals that will be

1:37:53installed in in some of these sensitive areas um where graffiti is happening so that was also done

1:37:59with intention and that was part of the plug when we pitched it to the dgba was that we were going to

1:38:04install these eight by four mural panels in sensitive areas so that instead of there being you know

1:38:11unwanted art that there was wanted art um and so i think we need to ask ourselves like what are we

1:38:17putting out there i think that having a bylaw is great but really what we would like to see

1:38:23and what i would like to see is prevention and making safe safe and inviting spaces for people

1:38:30to to spend their their time and um so when it comes back to budget i i i hope that we can kind

1:38:37of think about some of these things and um i'm not sure and maybe this is a question to staff

1:38:41is crime prevention through environmental design something that is part of um our you know any of

1:38:47our master plans or is it something that's embedded in any of our plans and could it be going forward

1:38:54um through the chair to council class and so um using the septet principles is is baked into

1:39:01all of our projects actually so just i think that's the answer you're looking for

1:39:06yes thanks okay thank you uh council kate thank you through your chair downer um

1:39:17the question is to staff and i think that i heard this uh in the answer from

1:39:21councillor Caron but i just want to clarify because uh so this won't have impact on the previously

1:39:29prioritized works for bylaw like the renovation bylaw for example and things that we've kind of

1:39:36already put a high priority on uh so through the chair to the councillor um uh speaking about the

1:39:44the the bylaws that are approved now for proceeding those will not be impacted by this work being

1:39:51directed to come back in q1226 at that time we will report to you on what would need to be paused

1:39:59or adjusted in terms of the schedule um if you do direct us to proceed with a graffiti bylaw

1:40:05so this first step we're fine with the resources we have we will let you know in q1226 what would

1:40:11need to come off of the work plan um related to um other bylaws if you would like us to proceed

1:40:17with a graffiti bylaw um just in regards to the renovation bylaw i think uh staff are coming back

1:40:22with an update uh in november on that so i'm not responding specifically about the renovation

1:40:27bylaw just about bylaws in general perfect thank you and um i think this is just more of a i don't

1:40:34know if you need direction on this because it's for the report but um a lot of graffiti removal

1:40:39involves high pressure washing and we've recently had water warnings um i would just ask that that's

1:40:47be a consideration in the report um if you're looking at you know impacts that this sort of work

1:40:56would have we'll take that away thank you okay thank you are there any other questions councillor Chew

1:41:08thank you through you madam chair just a quick comment um i just want to stress the partnership

1:41:12approach and i just send everyone quick email and this is credit to councillor Hauser who came

1:41:17well researched so the city of vancour has a partnership with dulex paints and it's it's

1:41:24practically free advertising for them and their products at the same time residents do our web

1:41:30portal can access that free resource so there's just a lot of local playing for you here i think we

1:41:36all would appreciate um staff focusing their attention to look into council fassins you have

1:41:45your hand up again okay is there anyone else okay we'll go to the vote thank you thank you it's a

1:41:52good discussion um is there anyone opposed to the motion on the that was on the floor not the one

1:41:59in the report but the one the alternative one seeing none that has passed and are there any

1:42:07and are there any uh staff announcements okay thank you i think we're going to

1:42:18turn it over now to the chair of audit

1:42:23okay

1:51:17it looks great i'm glad it's great well it's uh it's four or five so i will call the meeting back to

1:51:22order i believe we have quorum here so next up in the agenda uh we're on item number eight the consent

1:51:36agenda for audit uh item 8.1 facility cleaning services the value for money audit 2025 402 now

1:51:46this is on consent did any member of council wish to speak to this item or pull it from consent

1:51:56i see council councillor busettill and then mayor got three go ahead councillor busettill thank you i

1:52:00didn't want to speak to it i just wanted to say thank you i thought it was excellent very thorough

1:52:04and and i thoroughly enjoyed the recommendations so thank you to the staff for all this work

1:52:10so thank you councillor much appreciated uh mayor got three thank you chair three it's only

1:52:18comments so thank you um it it's a little bit of a ditto to what councillor busettill just said but

1:52:24i just think that sometimes i hope i'm speaking here for all of us on council we often sometimes

1:52:29hear like in the community are you checking this are you checking that you know and so the answer is

1:52:36yes and here it is so um you know value for money audits is something that we've been consistently

1:52:45doing for years and years and years there's money that's put into the budget every year to do at least

1:52:50two um you know so i just want to thank you guys for for the work that you did as councillor

1:52:57busettill said it's very thorough and very well laid out the results are here uh when we will continue

1:53:03to do value for money audits because i think the taxpayers expect that of us to continue to look

1:53:10and it's important also though and i i learned this years ago that when you walk into an audit

1:53:14you don't know what the outcome's going to be it doesn't automatically prescribe that it's going to

1:53:19be savings um there could be actually the recommendations could be you need investments

1:53:24in certain areas to meet customer service better or to find efficiencies here but the real work is

1:53:30just doing the value for money audit that that part and at least checking is something that i just

1:53:35really i'm just really glad that we do that here at the city of guelph and it's something that all

1:53:39of council has always been behind so thank you very much thank you chair for letting me say that

1:53:43because i think it just needs to be said more often thank you worship for those um

1:53:49very powerful comments could i have someone move the uh moved by councillor busettill seconded by

1:53:55councillor Caron um before i call the vote i just wanted to uh take a moment to thank you both

1:54:02mr khan and mr jelasek for for this report i think it's very helpful for any community member

1:54:08as the mayor said who's wondering if the city is looking at the dollars and cents i think this is

1:54:13an perfect example of what we're doing to increase government efficiency i will now call the vote all

1:54:21those against this report please hands up same non approved unanimously thank you both um now before

1:54:33i hand this over are there any comments from the service area nope no comments from staff okay thank

1:54:43you everyone uh we'll take two minutes to change chairs thank you chair Goller for an

1:55:10excellent job on the audit committee and moving straight into corporate services we have two

1:55:17items on consent this afternoon uh the first item is the 2025 second quarter budget monitoring report

1:55:25and we've got a series of recommendations there eight recommendations we also have a second item

1:55:30the multi residential property tax subclass discounts for affordable housing would anyone

1:55:35like to separate any of those items for discussion we have councillor uh katin which item would you

1:55:43like to extract thank you through you chair i would like to discuss the multi residential property

1:55:50tax subclass discounts okay great so we'll pull that and we'll proceed with 11.1 uh the second

1:55:58quarter budget monitoring report and ask for anyone to move that um mayor guthrie and councillor

1:56:04all moved and seconded any questions or comments on that consent report seeing none is there anyone

1:56:12against those recommendations seeing none that item is passed unanimously uh councillor Caton

1:56:21all uh i'll give you the floor then you had 11.2 pulled thank you um through you to staff

1:56:31i believe i'll be asking questions of mizodwayer or potentially mizbeaker i'm not sure who wants to

1:56:40field them um but my first question is because this looks like to me from my reading uh potential

1:56:50property tax discounts of 35 percent on like over a billion is what was in the report and i feel

1:56:59that that could have significant budget impacts as was written in the report and it could also have

1:57:05a significant impact on property taxes but the numbers for those aren't referenced in the report

1:57:12on how much is going to be taken up by the rest of and or which capital projects could be impacted

1:57:20service levels um it's a big chunk of money can you speak to that please

1:57:26i'm not sure who wants to field that one um mizodwayer it's through you chair to councillor

1:57:35katin um for clarity on an annual basis we collect 351 million dollars in property taxes

1:57:44of that 351 million dollars um 22.6 million would fall into the mt and nt tax classes

1:57:57so overall all multi-res properties in the city of guelph contribute 22.6 million on an annual

1:58:05basis to the overall bottom line from a property tax perspective this proposal that was introduced

1:58:17by the provincial government allows for a property tax reduction on affordable units

1:58:28that have agreements in place with either the federal provincial or municipal government

1:58:36um we don't know what that might look like going into the future but say hypothetically

1:58:4910 of all those residential units multi-residential units were affordable and they entered into

1:58:57agreements with one level of government a 35 discount on the 10 would be a

1:59:08approximately 800 000 on an annual basis so that might put things into an appropriate magnitude for

1:59:18you thank you um what is affordable in this sense because i know that it kind of varies depending on

1:59:29on what the province has decided um for for one bedroom two bedroom and three bedroom what would

1:59:36be considered an affordable rent rate so the legislation is clear it talks about the affordable

1:59:45residential unit criteria under the development charges act currently those are sitting at

1:59:521271 for a bachelor 1589 for one bedroom 1740 for a two bedroom and 1935 for a three plus bedroom

2:00:05thank you i was doing there there's like an online calculator and uh it's a for for the salary

2:00:11wage for a counselor 1200 a month is what would like the 30 rate would be affordable so they're

2:00:19going over that um for affordability um is this just the rental rate or is this ac charges utilities

2:00:29parking are all of those things potentially extra through the chair to counselor katin it is clear

2:00:43from the provincial guidelines that the addition to or subtraction of utilities is not

2:00:52contemplated in those rental rates thank you and i was wondering about the um so it's a per unit

2:01:09rate right so this wouldn't be you've got 20 percent of your units are affordable so you're

2:01:15going to get 35 percent of your property tax off for the whole building it's on a per unit basis

2:01:21through to the chair to counselor kate and correct it would be based on the units that were

2:01:27actually affordable the discount of up to 35 percent would apply just on those affordable

2:01:34units that have agreements in place and that discount then it's not a direct budget impact

2:01:43but it's a redistribution to the property tax base as a whole the easiest way to look at it is

2:01:51if you had a balloon and you took that balloon you pressed in a little bit for this 35 discount

2:01:58the rest of the balloon is going to expand just slightly thank you um through the chair

2:02:05so i floated the idea of property tax discounts on low-income people for their their homes

2:02:14just so they can afford to stay in their places and i was told that that would put a big burden

2:02:21on the rest of the tax base how is this different uh through the chair to counselor kate you asked

2:02:37that question again just so that i understand no worries um so one of the past ideas that i had

2:02:47in terms of low-income property owners trying to stay in their homes as we keep on increasing

2:02:54property tax people are worried that they they're not going to be able to afford it so they will

2:02:59have to move and uh so i thought of the idea of potentially having a low-income property tax

2:03:07discount to make those issues less concerning um and as those are the folks that are staying in their

2:03:15houses rather than the renters i'm just wondering how how is that materially different because i was

2:03:24kind of warned to not do that and staff are uh supporting this so i'm just wondering what the

2:03:32differences between the two is it is there any other provincial help that will be coming in

2:03:39as a part of this yeah so through the chair to counselor kate so some clarity

2:03:52on what was provided through the legislation just recently and this was the intent was to

2:04:01incentivize new affordable housing units whether it be new builds or new affordable housing units

2:04:11in existing properties so that's the the main intent from the provincial government

2:04:18to incent that piece um hopefully that helps with that explanation thank you um so

2:04:32as one of the groups that would i assume benefit from this would be county housing um

2:04:40would that affect the amount that we would be giving the county because they would have

2:04:47potentially up to 35 percent of their property taxes um waived so i'm just wondering where the

2:04:56where the money like will there be other impacts that are not negative in terms of the cost

2:05:04yeah uh through the chair to counselor kate thanks for that question that's a great question

2:05:09so currently um the housing that is provided by the county is exempt from property taxation

2:05:16through municipal capital facilities agreements um but one thing that i will say that this

2:05:24adoption may do is provide the city a clear direction on what they feel is appropriate from

2:05:38an affordable housing perspective from a discount on such so there have been in other municipalities

2:05:47there have been applications for full exemption or properties that may

2:05:56provide affordable housing outside of the scope with agreements for with a particular

2:06:05level of government this will provide for a definitive process for wealth to say the percentage

2:06:16discount is 35 versus something that might be determined otherwise through an application

2:06:25or appeal process i think this provides the clarity that um we need from a wealth perspective

2:06:35thank you is there any way to get um proper numbers on on like the the hypothetical where it

2:06:44is like the 800 000 just because i feel very uncomfortable approving something without knowing

2:06:50what the actual impact is and i'm not against this like i i really i think it's a good idea in terms of

2:06:57incentivizing lower rents but i can't support something without knowing you know is it going

2:07:04to affect the york road is it going to affect other things are we going to have to push the bus

2:07:07system out like what what is the the amount that it could potentially raise in our taxes

2:07:13like we're doing all of this push on affordability and and squishing in the budget and i i just i'm

2:07:21concerned about where where the balloon pops out with this one and how much of a push that is

2:07:29so um i want to support it but i need i need more information so through the chair to

2:07:35councillor kate the thing is we don't know this is meant to be an incentivized program to

2:07:42incentivize new affordable housing units so i would like to say that it would create you know

2:07:51a thousand new units but but we don't have any way to can potentially control that so

2:07:59we don't have data what this in fact will mean until we know how many affordable units are being

2:08:08built how many units that are out there currently are converted to affordable or are affordable and

2:08:15then they enter into programs with a level of government so it it's not like we have data that

2:08:26can support these are the properties that may be eligible currently there's not that data to support

2:08:32that so and again if we go back to it's really not about a budget number it's about the redistribution

2:08:43or how we're slicing the pie overall from the tax policy perspective through the chair so my my

2:08:49understanding was that we were going to be applying this to current buildings as well as future builds

2:08:55correct through the chair to councillor kate correct uh i think that's a good question

2:09:03through the chair to councillor kate correct um through the chair so it's not possible to find

2:09:09out what the current build number would be because we would have like that should be something that's

2:09:13achievable in terms of getting data right to find out what that direct impact is i understand future

2:09:19you can't predict but we should be able to tell what amount that will take away from our budget

2:09:27okay from the current start through the chair to councillor kate and i don't think we have that

2:09:39data and i don't think we have the ability to know what the uptake on particular agreements would

2:09:47be with in those situations thank you all right any further questions okay um point of order i

2:10:01have two other speakers do you dean okay i have councillor busatiel councillor Allt and the mayor

2:10:06kathryn okay councillor busatiel thank you for the question and answers i think i'm a little bit

2:10:12more confused so the current builds would the only eligible um units would be if they have an agreement

2:10:21with municipal provincial or federal am i correct there through the chair to councillor busatiel

2:10:30correct for current or new builds current or new right so we would have those agreements or they

2:10:36would have to come forward with those agreements and say i have a federal agreement or so on so my

2:10:42second question to that is um this would apply for the duration of the agreement x number of years

2:10:49and who is responsible for monitoring the compliance within that agreement that through the

2:10:58chair to councillor busatiel that would be whoever the agreement is with okay so we make

2:11:04adjustments at our level and we'll have to have some kind of a mechanism to ensure that that is

2:11:10continuing for us to make that adjustment at our level yeah through the chair to councillor busatiel

2:11:17it will be impact that makes that determination and codes the property appropriately okay so the

2:11:25property assessment corporation okay so i'm clear there thank you and and you know i i did listen to

2:11:32councillor katyn and i do recall her speaking about um uh you know tax relief property tax relief

2:11:40as a housing retention strategy we talk about housing and the best strategy is people who are

2:11:46currently house keeping them housed and so i would encourage councillor katyn to talk to

2:11:52our housing staff to explore this because if we have a mechanism in place is there something that

2:11:59can be done to retain um individuals in their housing so i i was surprised um that that we're

2:12:07doing this for new units but at the same time we've got a housing crisis and instead of um people

2:12:14losing their housing and having to be you know part of the 8 000 people that are on a waiting list for

2:12:20deeply affordable public housing how can we retain so i encourage her to explore that further

2:12:26because i do think that's part of the continuum of housing new and retention as well thank you

2:12:34okay councillor Allt thank you very much um having listened also to councillor katyn i did start to

2:12:42have some questions that that arose um mr carter you said we don't know which caused one of the first

2:12:50flags for me um the intention of this is to provide incentive and the next question becomes

2:12:56what kind of a time frame are we looking at through the chair to councillor Allt from a

2:13:05timeframe perspective this would be uh applicable starting january 1st of 2026 and then would go

2:13:14and tell such period of time as council chose to remove this subclass discount and that's that's

2:13:21part of why i'm now struggling a bit with this uh because it strikes me and i'm quite willing to

2:13:27be told that i'm wrong that this at the present time is not data driven but will be future data

2:13:33driven and so there's a couple of things that that are bothering me right now i could say that we

2:13:38target uh many developments that are that are condominiums are projected to be condominiums but

2:13:45because of the market having been driven down on condominiums would be converted into rental units

2:13:51force for rent rather than sale and then reconverted when the market gets stronger will we be getting

2:13:59reports because i'm wondering how easy is it going to be to reverse this the route the chair to

2:14:10council or alt could you expand a little bit more so i could provide the appropriate answer will we

2:14:15be able to reverse this if for example we find that this is not successful at all at developing

2:14:21rental property so through the chair to council or alt if this is not successful in developing

2:14:31affordable housing units then there would be no discount to apply so if there was safe for instance

2:14:41if there was a hundred units that were created over the next two years those hundred units would

2:14:47receive the discount if there were no units created over the next two or 20 years then none would

2:14:53receive a discount and apologies because i'm i guess i'm i'm looking at two different factors

2:14:59not just the units created but the greater affordability of the units that are created how do we

2:15:06how do we assess that that's that's challenging to me i'm not certain that it has been going to

2:15:15interject but the the creation of a sub tax a subclass in our taxation is a council decision

2:15:22so we reverse it through council decision and i understand that but if we don't have the data

2:15:27how do we do sorry point of order madam chair i believe this question has been answered twice now

2:15:35staff indicated that every year a report is done through impact and the and the property is classed

2:15:40as that and so that's the reporting that our staff would get and i'm sorry i just don't think we need

2:15:45to have counselors asking questions that are that are literally five minutes ago already answered

2:15:50but i'll go back to you right as a point of order i recognize that i do think that the question has

2:15:57been answered in different ways so counselor alt if you're asking a different question um perhaps

2:16:04you could rephrase it in a way where mr. krauter can address it in a different way because i do

2:16:09think the question has my my challenge is future data okay i'll jump in here okay through the chair

2:16:16to council what we will do on an annual basis through our tax policy report is we will have the

2:16:22data in that tax policy report that says this amount of assessment is associated with this subclass

2:16:30and that's the discount so it will be very clear and transparent on an annual basis sorry i that's

2:16:38okay that's the answer i was looking for thank you uh mayor guthrie you had a question or a comment

2:16:45yeah some questions through your chair and and i apologize to councillor Allt the way that he

2:16:50phrased the question there when i interrupted him was valid so my apologies to councillor Allt for that

2:16:57i just want to be really uh for me to be as simple as possible you gave us a hypothetical

2:17:04sort of breakdown of math at the beginning when councillor Caton started asking some some valid

2:17:09questions and you said hypothetically there might be like let's say 10 of those those properties come

2:17:16online and are defined appropriately okay and you said that would be an impact of about $800,000

2:17:23so where i think maybe the answer isn't coming from for me anyways is in that hypothetical

2:17:29situation where there's $800,000 that's pushed in one side of the balloon to the other side of the

2:17:35balloon there are other tax classes on this side of the balloon industrial commercial residential

2:17:42pipes in the ground whatever all those different classes what is the impact of that $800,000 to

2:17:48these classes that's i think what everyone wants to kind of understand is it $100 a month to every

2:17:53other residential home in this i'm exaggerating on purpose or is it a dollar a month to every

2:17:59single house in in the residential class on this side of it that i think is where councillor Caton

2:18:04and maybe some others and myself are trying to drill down to the actual impacts of what this is

2:18:09i think we all get the incentive side of this right 100 100 but we just and i you know hopefully

2:18:17we're all kind of on board on this i'm talking to other mayors and other cities that are a thousand

2:18:21percent on board on this but uh we just want to know what the impacts are we just want to know

2:18:25what that would be so that we can tell our community we can tell our constituents what that answer

2:18:30would be if they ask um through through the chair to you mr. mayor maybe just with respect to that

2:18:38ask maybe that's between now uh and council that we could run a bit of a scenario and provide like

2:18:44it like uh but again it would be hypothetical but maybe we could we'll we'll pull that type of

2:18:49analysis together um to help with your decision at the end of the month okay great and then my

2:18:55second question is i i i'm going to kind of come on board with what councillor Caton was asking purely

2:19:00for i think just for clarity's sake she did ask for something a couple years ago at budget

2:19:07we did a few months later then get sort of a that goes in information no it was an actual report

2:19:12i think that came to council about in the similar vein of what's being asked for here now yes we all

2:19:19know is there's a difference that now we have provincial legislation allowing it and there's

2:19:24mechanisms around it but by the end of the month i think i think it's worthy of some sort of a

2:19:32some sort of a chart or something that or a paragraph or something that can say

2:19:36what was asked about this idea a couple years ago compared to what's in front of us today

2:19:42here's the differences i i think that's valid to put that there i would appreciate that information

2:19:48by the end of the month as well because i think we're in a similar realm from what i recall so

2:19:55through the chair to mayor guthrie um and we we will we'll come back with some of that full some

2:20:05details um what i can say is that eight hundred thousand dollar push if that was from a new unit

2:20:12perspective that also means an additional two point two million dollars in taxation

2:20:19that we received for that other 65 percent right so if we're looking at a 35 discount

2:20:26there's an eight hundred thousand dollar reduction but there's that offsetting 65 percent of 2.2 million

2:20:33right so that's a benefit from that perspective um the difference here is that we're talking about

2:20:40multi-residential sector and for those that may have been around longer than others i can remember

2:20:53back in 1998 when the province announced the ability for municipalities to reduce

2:21:04their multi-residential ratio and introduce a new multi-residential tax class

2:21:10and at that time um i wasn't here in guelph guelph did that so they took a multi-residential tax

2:21:19ratio which was two point something at that time and introduced a new multi-residential tax class

2:21:26and that ratio was one so at that point in time council enacted a reduction of over 50 percent

2:21:37in the tax rate for new multi-residential that was being built what we're doing here

2:21:43is the province has now allowed legislation to reduce that further by another 35 percent

2:21:49for just the affordable rental units so it's just one step further that the province has been provided

2:21:58to municipalities to address the affordable housing rental shortage so again if we go back in time

2:22:07over a 50 discount was enacted unanimously across the the the city of guelph and a number of other

2:22:16municipalities did that as well so just a little different lens there all right thank you uh just

2:22:23a comment then madam chair so thank you for bringing this forward i've as i said i've talked to

2:22:27many other municipalities and and mayors and and council and they're they're all implementing this

2:22:32because it is more of a forward thinking incentive program um there may be some uptake of the

2:22:39existing stock but it's more it's it's dangling a carrot basically in front of developers private

2:22:44developers to say hey if you want to help us with the affordable housing stuff we're going to give

2:22:48you a break on this site i appreciate how the reporting is done both for current and for future

2:22:53that's great i think this is a great program don't get me wrong but i think the i think the

2:22:57absence of sort of the impact to the other tax classes if the hypothetical uptake does occur

2:23:03that scenario being laid out in a memo by the end of the month or something like that would be would

2:23:08be fantastic uh with that thank you very much i'm happy to move it by the way i don't know if

2:23:12someone's we don't have a mover in second i so sure by um you're got three seconded by

2:23:18councillor Goller so thank you and i really want to say what a great discussion and additional

2:23:22questions because it's always good for us to make a decision with more information and more

2:23:26clarity so thank you councillor Caton for pulling this item it actually has led to a question that

2:23:30i have um and that is that within the multi residential class we we do have um subclasses

2:23:38already um pre-1989 pre-1987 i think and i do recall in my first term of council or my second or

2:23:46third i'm not sure what year it happened we actually reduced um the pre-1987 construction

2:23:52subclass by more than 2.5 percent and i if i recall and correct me if i'm wrong if a property

2:23:59taxes decrease by more than 2.5 percent or 2.49 percent the landlord is obligated to reduce the

2:24:08rent on that unit to the tenant and it must flow directly to the tenant so under this new

2:24:16tax class if property taxes reduce the overall um tax on the building or the or the structure

2:24:25to the landlord is the landlord obligated and at what point is the landlord obligated to ensure

2:24:32that that reduction is passed on directly to tenants thanks for the question um so you are

2:24:43correct that the rent reduction letters um mandatory will go out to property owners if the

2:24:52reduction is over that 2.49 percent okay that's great and i i think i also saw that councillor

2:25:00billings had her hand up so i'll give the floor to councillor billings sorry if i missed you

2:25:05earlier christine no that's okay through you madam chair uh just the comment about at the end of the

2:25:10month we will get more info and it will still be hypothetical but if you have to sign up

2:25:16municipally or federal and provincially we would know the municipal numbers so why can't we get the

2:25:22the provincial and federal numbers for what's currently out there by the end of the month so

2:25:41through the chair to councillor billings um i guess we don't know what those current agreements

2:25:59are or if there are any in place there may not be any but but we could check into it could we not

2:26:08then so that by the end of the month it just wouldn't be so hypothetical right but then we

2:26:17don't know who may or may not apply for new agreements or whatever the it may be so it's it

2:26:24this is really about the fundamental decision by council if they want to support affordable

2:26:36rental housing okay and whether or not they want to do so through just new housing so it could just

2:26:46be for the new stuff the new nt portion or it could be for the existing mt portion so the previous

2:26:56two 97 or it could be just for the 98 to current as well so there's really three buckets here

2:27:07what we proposed from a staff perspective is to include all multi-residential across the board

2:27:14but it could just be broken down into re 97 which was mt the nt class which was 98 to current

2:27:24or new new multi-residential which is would be after january 1st of 2026

2:27:34so um through uh through the chair i think i'm just going to jump in i think uh you're hearing

2:27:38that we we aren't sure how to identify what agreements are in place with other levels of

2:27:44government who holds those agreements we'll do our best to look into that maybe ask ask our county

2:27:52partners but but there's really no um guarantee that by the end of the month that type of um

2:27:59information will be known um in the memo just per what what staff have provided we can break that down

2:28:06a little bit further on these options that you just heard about um but i did want to say that the

2:28:11reason this is before you and i think we just got there um we in december um well not we but staff

2:28:18presented and you you approved a housing affordability strategy and so you know the reason this is in

2:28:24front of you and and so quickly after the provincial government has put this in place is because we're

2:28:31trying to be as quick as possible um to adopt legislation when we can because we heard from you

2:28:38that this is a significant priority in guelph um and so that is what we're doing here today and

2:28:45and when we move quick we don't always have the time to bring you all of that type of data so

2:28:51we will do what we can by the end of the month um but but this is really a policy decision that um

2:29:00is a new tool that is now allowed and we're we're here to recommend that for your consideration

2:29:07you you absolutely it's within your control if you don't feel comfortable because of the lack of

2:29:11data but i just just really want to reinforce that we're moving as fast as we can because we heard

2:29:17that that was a priority from council thanks miss baker i really appreciate that that wrap up i know

2:29:23that the questions your staff have been asked are very specific about impacts and we don't have all

2:29:29those answers but you've you've wrapped it up in a nice policy strategic policy bow for our

2:29:35consideration so unless i see any other hands for um questions or comments we do have three

2:29:42recommended oh we do have uh councillor Caton and councillor billings again so uh more questions

2:29:50and comments and then we'll move to ratify councillor Caton thank you um just a comment

2:29:58i'll be fast uh i just wanted like i'm going to give it a tentative yes because i believe that you

2:30:03will try to get the the data um i just i think that there's there's stuff we can learn and and

2:30:11i'm hopeful we'll get it in time thanks um councillor billings yes through you madam chair it was

2:30:18because i never got to ask my questions um oh my apologies so okay so what i didn't understand

2:30:25with respect to the report was staff recommending for you know the current and you know future uh

2:30:33units and the reason why is because right now the waving of development charges i can remember

2:30:39not that long ago uh council was debating a 500 000 to put towards affordable housing

2:30:47and now we're waiving millions of dollars for affordable housing units and we've seen

2:30:53at the planning meetings applications coming forward for affordable units so i guess what

2:31:01i don't understand is for the new builds when we're the taxpayer is picking up this dc shortfall

2:31:08which is quite hefty why would we incentivize for the new builds that's the part that didn't make

2:31:15any sense to me so that's why i was wondering if staff could comment on that i understand the current

2:31:21stock i'm talking about the new builds that are receiving the millions of dollars of of dcs that

2:31:27are are waived um so uh through through uh chair Caron to councillor Busuttil i think that that at

2:31:42the end of you know the day this is really a policy decision yes there's a there's a financial impact

2:31:49we through through the housing affordability strategy it's been directed that affordable

2:31:54housing is important and this is another tool and there's absolutely like like's been been discussed

2:32:01this is a reduction in property taxation um to incent affordable housing and so um

2:32:09all right besides that um that is really uh the the tool that that the province has now

2:32:17put on the table for consideration here and we are recommending that given the importance and

2:32:24given the direction from council this is a way in which you could incent more housing uh affordable

2:32:30housing so um with that that's uh that's why we're recommending it and uh and it's really over uh to

2:32:38to council for that that determination thanks madam chair i'm going to ask my other questions

2:32:45between now and the end of the month okay no further questions no further comments okay let's

2:32:53move this forward if there's anyone who is opposed to the three recommendations on the floor

2:32:58seeing none uh that motion is passed oh sorry christine sorry i've learned to look at the

2:33:09the monitor as well one opposed okay um staff announcements service area announcements so i'll

2:33:17call on um acting deputy ceo matthews if there is any departmental announcements i'm seeing no

2:33:24we do have one uh from our CAO's office okay thank you um yeah i just uh thanks for the

2:33:30opportunity here i just wanted to just make a quick comment and this was an an issue or um

2:33:39oh yeah i guess an issue uh in august um and it's really about dispelling misinformation

2:33:46that uh was in a opinion article that was in uh in guelph today and um i just wanted to provide a

2:33:55bit of clarity on the concerns that were raised in that article uh well in the opinion article just

2:34:03to make sure it's not it's it was an opinion piece um and uh as it related to south hampton street and

2:34:10infrastructure improvements in that area um the art the opinion article uh called out concerns

2:34:20related to the work and the integrity of city staff and um i just wanted to take the opportunity here to

2:34:29to strongly say that that was uh inappropriate and uh and the language that was used was strongly

2:34:36accusing staff of wrongdoing related to the delivery of the project and just say empathetically

2:34:43that it's not true um i just wanted to clearly state that you know city staff leading our projects

2:34:50are dedicated community driven professionals balancing a number of competing priorities

2:34:55and public interests and uh and we're managing the projects best we can with the limited budget

2:35:01and so there are decisions that we make within the budget prioritization um envelope and uh and

2:35:09we're ready to have kind of that that public discourse and that that transparent conversation

2:35:14and so since that time i just wanted to say that we have uh met with those individuals

2:35:20on south hampton and uh we discussed the concerns the state of the roads the curves and the infrastructure

2:35:27and uh we feel that we've addressed their concern and so i just wanted to say that out loud and we

2:35:33would much rather have that type of interaction than through the public opinion article that that

2:35:41called out the integrity of staff and so um and so with that i just also wanted to to remind everybody

2:35:47that we do have over 350 million worth of of city infrastructure that's past due and we've seen that

2:35:54in our asset management plan and so we don't have unlimited budget and so we are making those

2:36:00tough decisions on when to repave versus when to do full road reconstruction and so uh and so with

2:36:08that we have now talked to those community members and we feel like we've addressed the questions

2:36:14and so uh just wanted to thank you for the opportunity to say that out loud and dispel

2:36:19um the the accusations that were made publicly so thank you thank you CAO Baker and thank you

2:36:26that embedded in your comments was an invitation for anyone in the community to have open and

2:36:31honest dialogue that's for any of those concerns so that's always a good message to get out there so

2:36:36i see no other comments no other announcements so we do have an announcement uh we have over to

2:36:43councillor classum yes thank you i have two announcements um both our events uh the first is

2:36:50our ward two town hall is coming up on september 22nd from 6 p.m. till 8 p.m. it's happening in the

2:36:56marg McKinnon room we're going to be talking about traffic safety and the speeding camera

2:37:05speed cameras and then we'll talk about affordable housing and if you go to our facebook event there's

2:37:11also a link for you to fill out if you have any questions for ward two city councillors

2:37:17Rodrigo and I and we'll be addressing some of those at the meeting so i encourage anybody who's

2:37:23listening to please attend and then i have a second announcement we just heard today at the committee

2:37:29of the elliot that they have a few events coming up and i just wanted to call attention to their

2:37:35event in september the great harvest it's on september 28th happening it's from 12 until 3 p.m.

2:37:42and so you can head over to their website to look at tickets for that wonderful thank you and in the

2:37:47spirit of ward announcements we also have our ward six councillors who have some announcements

2:37:52thank you madam chair i just want to take this opportunity as well to share that our new ward

2:37:58six councillor councillor Hauser and i are going to be out in the community as well this September

2:38:04in particular September 7th on sunday from 1 to 4 p.m. we'll be meeting members of the community at

2:38:13570 court right road west with university with bylaw and with ems i believe and it'll be great

2:38:22opportunity to meet our new councillor for anyone interested and yeah contrary to public belief

2:38:26there are a lot of events happening in ward six i encourage you guys to sign up for our newsletter

2:38:31to learn more thank you any other ward councillors who have some ward related announcements

2:38:40seeing none i will ask for a motion to adjourn mayor cut three councillor richardson

2:38:47anyone opposed meeting adjourned