Report “WSIB Impacts for Emergency Services” be received and that it be forwarded to the Joint Social Services and Land Ambulance Committee for information.

44:17Good and Paul Allen, Manager of Employee Health, Safety and Wellness.

44:22And I want to point out, Councillors, that this is a really good foundational report and

44:27information to another report later on in the agenda, which is the second quarter budget

44:35monitoring report.

44:48Deputy CAO Colleen Collack, I wish she was going to start us off with a few comments first.

44:53Thank you.

44:54Thank you.

44:55And good afternoon, everyone.

44:57So as mentioned, the purpose of this report is to share information with you on WSIB as

45:02it relates to first responders, specifically today, speaking about Guelph Fire Services

45:08and Guelph Wellington Paramedic Services.

45:10It's important to recognize that we as a city employ a number of people who are on the front

45:14line in emergency situations.

45:17These staff members face unique risks such as exposure to trauma, danger and high stress

45:22situations that increase the risk of physical and mental health issues.

45:28Early intervention and investing in care for our first responders is critical, which is

45:31why the city has programs to support staff and why provincial legislation has been amended

45:37within recent years to allow first responders who are suffering injury or illness with the

45:41ability to make WSIB claims more easily.

45:45Mental health injuries in fire services and paramedic services continue to drive lost

45:50time hours and resulting WSIB claims.

45:53And while these programs are effective, there are impacts to the city as we have to maintain

45:57staffing numbers to provide effective service, which has resulted in budget variances caused

46:03by overtime.

46:04And so through this presentation today and in the accompanying report, we wanted to provide

46:08you with information on WSIB as it pertains, again, specifically to first responders and

46:14the operational impacts for fire and GWPS.

46:18I will say that of course, GWF police services has similar impacts from WSIB.

46:24That's out of the scope of our immediate reporting or structure here for the city.

46:29And so certainly you may want to consider asking, especially for those of you on the

46:32GWF police services board, follow up questions of the police chief in terms of how WSIB is

46:37impacting GWF police services.

46:40We also wanted to give you some insight into the mitigation measures currently in place.

46:44And so as chair Downer has mentioned, we have Paul Allen, the manager of health and

46:48safety here.

46:50Steve Good, our fairly new fire chief, I can still say fairly new chief Good.

46:55And Steven Dewar, our chief of well-follied and paramedic services.

46:58And we also have Karen Newland here from our financial services team who can assist with

47:02any questions you may have about the financial impacts.

47:06Just also of note also on the consent agenda today is the 2025 second quarter budget monitoring

47:12report.

47:13And I note that because it has a recommendation to adjust the budget specifically for GWF

47:18well-filling and paramedic services to account for the budget variance and to maximize the

47:22funding received from the province.

47:24And we'll also be bringing similar information to the joint social services and land ambulance

47:28committee on this at a later date.

47:31And chief Dewar will speak more to that.

47:33So with that, I will turn it over, I think, first to Paul Allen.

47:38Good afternoon, everyone.

47:42I just wanted to deliver some key messages.

47:44So Workplace Safety and Insurance Act sets out provisions for benefits and compensation

47:49for employees who suffer injury or illness because of their employment.

47:54WSIB presumptive legislation, which was originally introduced in Ontario in 2007, creates a legal

48:02presumption that specific diseases or injuries are work related for workers in designated

48:08occupations or processes such as firefighters and paramedics.

48:13This legislation aims to streamline the claims process by assuming a link between employment

48:18and the condition, requiring WSIB to approve the claim unless non-work related factors

48:25can definitively rebut the presumption.

48:29Presumptive coverage was expanded in 2016 to include post-traumatic stress disorder

48:35for all first responders and other designated workers, including firefighters and paramedics,

48:41as established in the Supporting Ontario's First Responders Act, which created a legal

48:46presumption that PTSD in certain first responders is work related, which thus expedites access

48:54to WSIB benefits and treatment.

48:57This law was a response to the complex and often traumatic nature of first responder

49:02work, which makes proving a direct link between a workplace event and PTSD challenging.

49:08WSIB presumptive legislation therefore shifts the burden to employers to prove a work related

49:16illness or injury isn't occupational, which creates challenges in gathering evidence to

49:21rebut claims, especially for diseases with non-occupational causes.

49:27As a Schedule II employer, the city is responsible for the entire cost of the claim plus an administration

49:33fee, which in 2025 was just recently confirmed at 17.24%.

49:38Further, WSIB's own figures have shown significant rising costs for Schedule II employers across

49:45the province.

49:47Organizationally, in line with other municipalities, we have significantly seen an increase in

49:52WSIB claim costs year over year, particularly related to health care, most of which are

49:59going towards mental stress claims from paramedics and fire.

50:04Just one final note I did want to introduce, though.

50:07The city does provide specialized trauma care support for first responders through our Homewood

50:12Health EFAP program.

50:15Our quarterly reports from Homewood indicate approximately a 20% utilization rate of the

50:20city's program as a whole, which is significantly higher than Homewood's average utilization

50:25for their other municipal clients.

50:27I will pass over to Steve Good.

50:35Good afternoon.

50:38The introduction of presumptive legislation has significantly helped our staff, who as

50:44first responders face highly stressful and traumatic situations often.

50:50Firing fires is essential, yet dangerous work.

50:54The city has invested in providing personal protective equipment to help prevent traumatic

50:59situations.

51:00But to know, this equipment doesn't shield them from the cancer risk.

51:07Chemical flame retardants, found in furniture, produce thicker, blacker, more toxic smoke

51:14than ever before.

51:17Fires are at significant risk of cancer.

51:21In fact, studies have shown that the rates could be four times higher than your general

51:26population.

51:28Operationally, the impact of unplanned absences, including WSIB claims, does present a challenge

51:36for our service.

51:38Under the collective agreement, we have a minimum staffing requirement.

51:43We must utilize overtime to backfill any absences that are unplanned, ensuring that

51:50we meet these requirements and can provide an effective delivery of service.

51:55We have seen exponential growth in WSIB lost time hours between 2020 and 2024, accounting

52:04for 34% of the total unplanned absence in 2024.

52:11Absenteeism, combined with our minimum standards, has meant that we have to backfill staff, which

52:15drives up our overtime.

52:18Despite the increases in absentee hours, fire services has been able to reduce and contain

52:24the amount of overtime hours due to staffing strategies that we put in place.

52:30In addition to the corporate employee family assistance program and specialized trauma

52:34care support, fire has made significant investments, in my view, in training and supporting

52:40of staff, which includes our own internal peer support team.

52:45I'll pass the mic to Chief Doher.

52:56Thank you and good afternoon.

52:59Of course, like fire services, the strain of providing care for people in traumatic situations

53:06has impacts on our paramedics' mental health, again, much like it does for our firefighters.

53:14We care for that to the best of our ability.

53:18Like fire department, we don't have minimum staffing built into our collective agreement,

53:23but we do need to replace staff.

53:25We have response time targets that are set by US Council each year that are submitted

53:31to the province required by provincial legislation.

53:34In order to meet those targets, our ambulances need to be fully staffed.

53:40Staffing is determined or was determined by the number of ambulances that were staffed

53:44back when the city assumed the service back in 2009, and then the incremental increases

53:50that you've added over the years.

53:52Again, that's based on consultants' work to determine with computer modeling exactly

53:59what's required to meet the response time targets that you ask us to achieve.

54:06Unplanned absences do require backfilling.

54:09However, unlike fire services, we have a staffing model that employs part-time paramedics.

54:15We can utilize those first to replace vacancies, and the costs associated with our WSIB absences

54:24is a combination of our part-time staffing and also our overtime hours.

54:28Part-time staffing is used to replace our injuries that are predictable, vacations, etc., but

54:34also the unpredictable vacancies such as WSIB that you've seen in your report.

54:40Our last time hours from WSIB have been relatively consistent in the past two years.

54:46However, unlike the fire department, our WSIB lost time hours represent more than half of

54:51all of our unplanned absences.

54:55Specific to our paramedic service, a little bit different than other departments in the

54:58city, we receive a grant from the province equal to one half of our budget for the previous

55:06year.

55:07We emphasize that it's budget and not actuals, so not our negative variance.

55:11So that when we encounter a negative variance, and in this case caused by WSIB, the cost

55:18of that variance is absorbed by the city and the county and is not included in the grant

55:25for the next year from the province.

55:28And so that is why in the future report, in the report this afternoon, you'll be asked

55:34to consider changing the budget so that that would be reflected in next year's grant from

55:38the province.

55:39I just want to emphasize that we recognize aside from the costs and talking to you about

55:47the costs, we do know the human factor and that we do have strategies similar to what

55:51fire department has and working with our peers in HR.

55:56We do have strategies to try to care for our paramedics and to provide them with educational

56:02opportunities and the services that they need when they do suffer an injury.

56:08So in conclusion, it's important for as an employer to support our first responders and

56:15to ensure that they're employing strategies to limit the injuries and illnesses and assist

56:20our staff in dealing with trauma.

56:22There are a number of strategies being utilized currently to support staff to manage the absenteeism

56:28and to contain operating costs.

56:30However, WSIB costs are continuing to rise.

56:36We're expecting that as the stigma associated with mental health is further reduced, that

56:42we will see more claims for mental health injuries in the future.

56:46Paramedics and firefighters face significant physical and psychological risks due to exposure

56:51to hazardous environments, infectious materials, traumatic events, toxic chemicals, and the

56:57potential for violence and accidents.

57:00These hazards can result in injuries, chronic illnesses, post-traumatic stress disorder,

57:05depression, anxiety, burnout, and even suicide.

57:09It's essential to recognize these risks and continue to support the vital work that our

57:15paramedics and firefighters do every day.

57:21Thank you, Chief Dewar.

57:23That's a good note to end on.

57:28It's not an easy job being a first responder and it has its consequences, I'm sure, as

57:33a career choice sometimes.

57:36Okay, so before we go to questions, if somebody could put the motion on the floor, which is

57:44basically to receive the report and also to forward it to the Joint Social Services and

57:49Land Ambulance Committee for Information, which I believe would be the next week's meeting,

57:54that it would be going to Councillor Allt, Councillor Richardson in second.

57:59Okay, any questions?

58:00Councillor Allt?

58:02Thank you very much, Chair Downer.

58:04Just a preface, I might need to call on Ms. O'Dwyer or Ms. Baker to ask to answer at

58:10least one of these.

58:13On page one of the report, there's reference to, and the third bullet from the bottom,

58:19Guelph Wellington Paramedic Services, multi-year budget WSIB rate adjustment increased significantly

58:27from 1.75 to 6.98% over about three years.

58:33Actual claims are funded from the reserve.

58:36Historically, the reserve balance has been 752,000 driven by spike in mental health stress.

58:44My concern is actually a number that appears on page two.

58:49The balance at this point is identified in the reserve as 3.6 million.

58:55Is that a healthy balance?

59:03Or somebody else to answer?

59:04Sorry.

59:05Yes.

59:06I can respond to that.

59:09So as far as that reserve balance goes, I would say that our, the WSIB reserve is potentially

59:18not funded to the target amount that it should be, and we do have a risk of that balance

59:24continuing to decline, and that puts our reserve in risk.

59:29So we would not want to see that reserve to continue to decline.

59:33So to reiterate then what I had heard is there a possibility that in our upcoming budget,

59:41we will need to examine what we need for a healthy reserve?

59:47Yes.

59:48So we are always monitoring our reserves as you're aware when we come through to the budget.

59:55And through the 2026 budget update, we are focusing on the reserves and those balances.

1:00:01And you'll get an update through that, through the 2026 budget update.

1:00:05And thank you very much.

1:00:07I'll come back to staff in a couple of seconds, but I think this one is actually for the paramedics.

1:00:13If I've got it right, I hope I have it right.

1:00:18On page three, no, it's fire services.

1:00:22I think it is.

1:00:23On page three, it states that there's to be a minimum of 28 staff on duty.

1:00:28I think it's fire services.

1:00:31I was wondering if you could comment on that.

1:00:33Are we approaching a point of no return?

1:00:37Because I acknowledge that stress, stigma, and the reduction of stigma associated with such things

1:00:45as mental health standards, well-being, and even such things as concussion has been reducing,

1:00:52and thereby increasing our numbers.

1:00:54Where are we at right now?

1:00:56Do we need to look at these numbers?

1:00:57Through the chair to the Councillor, many years ago, they put these numbers together

1:01:03in their collective agreement.

1:01:04Many fire services do not have this language in their collective agreements.

1:01:08From my perspective, if somebody is injured at work, whether it's psychological or traumatic,

1:01:14we do backfill through overtime.

1:01:16And today we have not struggled with the staffing levels that we require.

1:01:21So I would not recommend making any increases to the minimum staffing at this point.

1:01:27I do apologize.

1:01:28I didn't realize this was a collective bargaining issue as we framed it.

1:01:32It looks like Ms. Baker wants to comment as well.

1:01:35Not just for clarity, not on this particular question.

1:01:39I was going to go back.

1:01:41I got another one for you.

1:01:42You can finish out if you've got follow-up on your question there to the Chief.

1:01:50I just wanted to add a little bit of clarity or a little bit more detail on the

1:01:54WSAB reserve and the budget strategy that we've used to date.

1:01:59We have tried to, as part of our base budget, cover the in-year cost of WSAB

1:02:07plus then have an increment that goes into the reserve.

1:02:12And so that increment that goes into the reserve is then kept as a contingency

1:02:16because of everything that you've heard here today.

1:02:18There can be excess claims that are required to be paid out.

1:02:22And so really that's the point of keeping that WSAB reserve.

1:02:26That balance and that target, we bench to the actuarial results.

1:02:32We get the actuarial review every three years and we bench that reserve level to that liability.

1:02:40And we use that 25% of the liability as the target level to keep that WSAB reserve at.

1:02:46So I think just in terms of budget context, you will see us continue to reflect the budget,

1:02:54the base budget to cover this increasing kind of base cost over time.

1:02:59But then you're also going to, there'll be a continuation of that increased kind of contingency

1:03:05to the reserve to make sure that we've got enough on hand in the instance that there's a kind of

1:03:11claim in excess of what we were expecting. So just to provide a little bit more clarity on the

1:03:17budget strategy. Thank you very much. And I guess from that, Ms. O'Dwyer doesn't have to move from

1:03:23up in the cheap seats. The next question actually is possibly either for you, Ms. Baker, possibly for

1:03:31Ms. O'Dwyer or Ms. Clack. I'm coming at it from the perspective of police services and I'm chair

1:03:37finance there. One of the things that I appreciate about this is hearing from these two emergency

1:03:43services departments. What I'm lacking is a comparison with the police and I'm wondering if

1:03:51there is a way for our staff and police services staff, perhaps under the direction of Chief Kobe,

1:03:58to put together some comparative numbers so we understand where we are on all of our emergency

1:04:03services given that this is such a significant issue. So through the chair to council all

1:04:10certainly and as I mentioned in my introductory remarks, this report is before you because you

1:04:15are responsible for fire and paramedics as ultimately I am and Ms. Baker is because police is a

1:04:21separate board. I would suggest that it's probably the most appropriate for one of the board members

1:04:26yourself to make that request of Chief Kobe to perhaps have that report come to a police services

1:04:32board meeting. We could then take their direction certainly to have our finance teams work together

1:04:38to look at how we compile that into one aggregate of the comparative data but we would certainly

1:04:42need that direction to come from Chief Kobe and to the police services board. Thanks for the suggestion.

1:04:48I'll do that. Thank you. Councillor Richardson. Thank you for your chair, Downer and I want to thank

1:04:58both services for the work that they do and for the work that your teams do. It's incredibly

1:05:02difficult work and essential for sure. What I heard you speak a lot about was

1:05:08supports for staff who are already injured and I'm wondering if we have any proactive programs in

1:05:14place that can help employees build resiliency and recognize maybe the early signs and symptoms

1:05:22especially if it's going down you know when they're just maybe becoming their mental health is

1:05:27injured and they're not necessarily into a mental illness yet but the help them identify that early

1:05:32and seek treatment earlier. Through the councillor, sorry, through the chair, Councillor Richardson

1:05:43and I can start and Chief Good might be able to add something from the fire position. We certainly do

1:05:51in our education program, in our new employee recruit process, we do have

1:05:59experts come in and talk to people about building resiliency. We have programs on that way. We also

1:06:04have started a trial program last year with a local psychologist who provides services to

1:06:11paramedics, visits the stations, comes to their education sessions, help them in that way and

1:06:16then of course also provides them with priority appointments should they need it. But yes, we

1:06:23do the proactive training that way in addition to supporting Chief Good mentioned that they have a

1:06:29peer support team, so do we which is a you know a team of volunteers within the paramedic service

1:06:34that call each other when they do traumatic calls and we support them as much as we can. I guess

1:06:39that's not that's still not as much proactive but it supporting the team and trying to work that way

1:06:46is an effort. Similar to paramedic services are onboarding with firefighters includes

1:06:56mental health, resiliency, different strategies. Each and every responder is different in the

1:07:03way they manage their own and what they see and what they deal with. I can tell you that we do in

1:07:09my view have a robust corporate system for EFAP, Homewood Health Services and it's local. We also

1:07:19have an internal team of 20, so it's staff supporting staff. It's about a comfort level of staff going

1:07:26to a manager. We prefer actually staff to support staff. We do get some data on basically the

1:07:35connections and that staff is trained not to provide strategies moreover they're there to give them

1:07:43the coping mechanisms and to guide them to the services that they may require and happily report

1:07:50fire and paramedic services put a joint application for for provincial funding to help support it.

1:07:55It is costly. Our team does meet our peer support team meets quarterly and they do have an agenda and

1:08:03I'm able to view that agenda and basically they talk about certain events that they've put themselves

1:08:09forward and proactively if there's a significant event similar to paramedic services they will

1:08:16proactively have a little meeting with those that were involved to ensure that the responders know

1:08:23that there are supports available. Great thank you. Thank you Councillor Cossin and Councillor

1:08:31Turner. Yes thank you through you chair Downer to staff. Thank you very much for this report and

1:08:40my questions are in line with them Councillor Richardson's but I just would like to say

1:08:45thank you for all of the work that you do in emergency services. There's so many instances

1:08:50where I think wow like I would have no idea what to do in this circumstance when I read about them so

1:08:56thank you and in that same vein I can see how there can be significant impacts on people's mental

1:09:02health. Deep significant wounds that might last a lifetime and so I also thank you for bringing

1:09:09this forward for the opportunity to have the discussion about it because mental health is

1:09:13something that we all need to be discussing openly and we need to be having this public discourse

1:09:19about it on an ongoing basis because it's a challenge and I appreciate we're talking about

1:09:25budget and WSIB and numbers but I think at its core is that we have people who are deeply impacted

1:09:31and traumatized by what's happening to them and what they're seeing and we're asking them to do it

1:09:37as their job over and over again and so my question is around mental health I think Councillor Richardson

1:09:44addressed some of the initiatives and things that are ongoing. My question is in that same section

1:09:52with regard to the increase and there's a section that talks about how our executive team has increased

1:09:58mental health benefits for the non-union team members and you talked a little bit about the

1:10:03other initiatives that you're doing peer supported and then I know that you know benefits is one of

1:10:08those things maybe people want their privacy when they reach out different types of therapists

1:10:13so having that you know availability I think is something that's important so my question

1:10:17is with regard to what that increase to those benefits are and if they're significant because

1:10:23I don't know if I've booked my therapy sessions recently and they get close to 200 bucks a pot

1:10:30so if you're going that private route and I appreciate that there's other options here

1:10:34I think that the specialized trauma support program was mentioned with that 20% utilization rate

1:10:40but maybe maybe I'm and I can't make assumptions but people are going through

1:10:44the alternate route through their benefits so just curious about what that increase might be

1:10:50and and you know curious what part of what what the ongoing conversation with with the

1:10:56utilization of those benefits are. Through the chair to the Councillor our last negotiations

1:11:06with our local union well professional firefighters freely negotiated there was a piece in there that

1:11:13they have $3,000 for mental health supports I don't know what those utilize rate utilization

1:11:20rates are at this point so I'd have to get back to you on the actual rates of use but from what

1:11:27I'm hearing it's very supportive and it's manageable. Great thanks again. Thank you Councillor Bousatiel.

1:11:39Thank you and through you chair thank you for on page eight you were talking about the mental health

1:11:44grant and it was one of my questions what is solgen solgen what is that?

1:11:51Oh solicitor general got it okay I thought it was some new grant name following that I did

1:11:57have a question and thank you for all the work that you're doing you've outlined in there the team

1:12:02the peer all of that capacity you're building across the system my question is about backfilling

1:12:08and you know the labor market being what it is part-time employees my question is and using I

1:12:15understand it's the strategy of of part-time employees to backfill before over time so my

1:12:22question is how is that pool and is recruitment and retention a concern and how does it look

1:12:30going ahead for labor force? Through you chair downer to Councillor Bousatiel

1:12:41we recruit part-time paramedics we have in this case two sessions annually

1:12:48recruiting people as they come out of college historically it's worked fairly well in that

1:12:53someone just coming out of college works part-time against experience and then is in line for the

1:13:00first full-time job that comes available the labor market has changed in the last couple of years

1:13:05where it is increasingly difficult to recruit people we are in competition with our neighbouring

1:13:11paramedic services I believe after the last recruit class in May as college has graduated

1:13:17to their employee we made 35 job offers and at 11 people join our service and those others joined

1:13:24other services in the in the area it is still a model that's less costly than paying overtime and

1:13:34plus with a number of absences it simply burns people out when you ask them to work on all of

1:13:40their days off so it's a model that we haven't we're not moving away from at this point but it

1:13:45is a concern for us. Through the chair just a quick supplemental are there enough graduates

1:13:52from the program you mentioned 35 job offers 11 successful is that pool growing

1:13:59through the provincial allocation of training and so on. Again through you chair councillor

1:14:06Bustill the number of students is actually growing. Conestoga College graduated I believe 40 people

1:14:13last year this year their intake is 100 so they're aware provincially as paramedic services we have

1:14:20discussed with the colleges the need to increase that that demand they've also added a second cohort

1:14:25that starts in in January and graduated in August and so we have another recruit going on right now

1:14:33to attract people that graduated more recently so we are working on that uh pool provincially

1:14:40we've also had discussions about combining the number of hours and hiring full-time float people

1:14:46as opposed to just temporary people it's another strategy it's um all part of our sort of toolbox

1:14:54if I could. Are there any other questions councillor Hauser? It's a question I believe. Thank you thank

1:15:06you. Through you chair downer just wanted to clarify when you said you had 35 job offers out and 11

1:15:14hired does that mean you were 24 people short or you had 11 spots and it took you 35

1:15:20you know like sending out after people were refusing. Through you chair downer

1:15:26the number that we need is a little bit flexible and that the people that you hire work more hours

1:15:31if there's less people we targeted basically to be frank at least 20 people based on the

1:15:38number of hours that we had there were 35 good candidates and so we could hire 35 and have

1:15:44the hours spread out by more people again we ended up with 11 people finished trained and now on the

1:15:52road so they're working more hours good for them but also more difficult to schedule.

1:16:00Thank you. Councillor Billings. Through you Madam Chair and I'm sorry if I missed this but I just

1:16:09a couple of questions for clarity page 5 it's your fire services operations and communications

1:16:16but that communications that doesn't include our 9-1-1 communicators does it like this is separate

1:16:26through the chair to the councillor yes it does they're called alarm room technicians so they do

1:16:31call processing including picking up the phones for 9-1-1 and dispatching resources so it's all

1:16:38our 9-1-1. Correct correct that's included in this. Okay the reason I wanted clarity through you

1:16:47Madam Chair was because I thought I used it fell under the police budget but I didn't understand.

1:16:53Through the chair to Councillor Billings if I can just clarify Chief Good is absolutely correct

1:16:58that this is the fire services 9-1-1 dispatchers just I think what you're asking so when you call

1:17:039-1-1 in Guelph the call first goes through to Guelph police services they take the initial call

1:17:08and then if it is a fire related call it gets transferred to Guelph fire and Guelph fire handles

1:17:14the dispatch call from that point forward and you're speaking with a Guelph fire dispatcher

1:17:18so depending on the nature likewise for paramedics you would be transferred to the provincial

1:17:24ambulance dispatch center in Cambridge so I think both are both are correct in terms of how

1:17:30Chief Good answered that these are 9-1-1 dispatchers in fire but to your point the initial call does

1:17:34come through Guelph police. Okay thanks for that clarity and the other thing it's the same table

1:17:40the overtime hours and the and the and the big spike in 2022 any any particular thing you can

1:17:50pinpoint that to whether more calls for service or what happened in 2022? Through the chair to the

1:18:00counselor to be fair and honest I do not know this is post COVID but we many of them were due to

1:18:12sickness. Okay okay well thank you for that last question and I was like debating do I don't I do

1:18:21I don't I but you know you you watch shows like with respect to mental health and how psychedelics

1:18:29can have some positive effects and I was just wondering have we gone down that path or no I'll

1:18:35just go high level. Through you Madam Chair we don't get necessarily involved in the treatment

1:18:47so much that would be again we have contracted with a psychologist who is very familiar with our

1:18:56profession visits our paramedics proactively and then provides care I actually can't answer whether

1:19:04part of his treatment regime involves psychedelics I'm familiar with that I've read the reports but

1:19:08I don't know if that's what's being prescribed. Okay thanks. Are there any other questions from

1:19:19council? Okay I think we'll go to the question thank you again for the presentation and a lot of us

1:19:27already expressed our appreciation of the work that the first responders do.

1:19:33Is there anyone opposed? Okay that passes thank you. Okay we're going to move on to

1:19:445.2 the graffiti bylaw and we're going to ask Mayor Guthrie to speak to this item