City of Guelph adopt the optional subclass for affordable rental housing in respect of the multi-residential (MT) and new multi-residential (NT) property classes. To be effective…

1:56:21all uh i'll give you the floor then you had 11.2 pulled thank you um through you to staff

1:56:31i believe i'll be asking questions of mizodwayer or potentially mizbeaker i'm not sure who wants to

1:56:40field them um but my first question is because this looks like to me from my reading uh potential

1:56:50property tax discounts of 35 percent on like over a billion is what was in the report and i feel

1:56:59that that could have significant budget impacts as was written in the report and it could also have

1:57:05a significant impact on property taxes but the numbers for those aren't referenced in the report

1:57:12on how much is going to be taken up by the rest of and or which capital projects could be impacted

1:57:20service levels um it's a big chunk of money can you speak to that please

1:57:26i'm not sure who wants to field that one um mizodwayer it's through you chair to councillor

1:57:35katin um for clarity on an annual basis we collect 351 million dollars in property taxes

1:57:44of that 351 million dollars um 22.6 million would fall into the mt and nt tax classes

1:57:57so overall all multi-res properties in the city of guelph contribute 22.6 million on an annual

1:58:05basis to the overall bottom line from a property tax perspective this proposal that was introduced

1:58:17by the provincial government allows for a property tax reduction on affordable units

1:58:28that have agreements in place with either the federal provincial or municipal government

1:58:36um we don't know what that might look like going into the future but say hypothetically

1:58:4910 of all those residential units multi-residential units were affordable and they entered into

1:58:57agreements with one level of government a 35 discount on the 10 would be a

1:59:08approximately 800 000 on an annual basis so that might put things into an appropriate magnitude for

1:59:18you thank you um what is affordable in this sense because i know that it kind of varies depending on

1:59:29on what the province has decided um for for one bedroom two bedroom and three bedroom what would

1:59:36be considered an affordable rent rate so the legislation is clear it talks about the affordable

1:59:45residential unit criteria under the development charges act currently those are sitting at

1:59:521271 for a bachelor 1589 for one bedroom 1740 for a two bedroom and 1935 for a three plus bedroom

2:00:05thank you i was doing there there's like an online calculator and uh it's a for for the salary

2:00:11wage for a counselor 1200 a month is what would like the 30 rate would be affordable so they're

2:00:19going over that um for affordability um is this just the rental rate or is this ac charges utilities

2:00:29parking are all of those things potentially extra through the chair to counselor katin it is clear

2:00:43from the provincial guidelines that the addition to or subtraction of utilities is not

2:00:52contemplated in those rental rates thank you and i was wondering about the um so it's a per unit

2:01:09rate right so this wouldn't be you've got 20 percent of your units are affordable so you're

2:01:15going to get 35 percent of your property tax off for the whole building it's on a per unit basis

2:01:21through to the chair to counselor kate and correct it would be based on the units that were

2:01:27actually affordable the discount of up to 35 percent would apply just on those affordable

2:01:34units that have agreements in place and that discount then it's not a direct budget impact

2:01:43but it's a redistribution to the property tax base as a whole the easiest way to look at it is

2:01:51if you had a balloon and you took that balloon you pressed in a little bit for this 35 discount

2:01:58the rest of the balloon is going to expand just slightly thank you um through the chair

2:02:05so i floated the idea of property tax discounts on low-income people for their their homes

2:02:14just so they can afford to stay in their places and i was told that that would put a big burden

2:02:21on the rest of the tax base how is this different uh through the chair to counselor kate you asked

2:02:37that question again just so that i understand no worries um so one of the past ideas that i had

2:02:47in terms of low-income property owners trying to stay in their homes as we keep on increasing

2:02:54property tax people are worried that they they're not going to be able to afford it so they will

2:02:59have to move and uh so i thought of the idea of potentially having a low-income property tax

2:03:07discount to make those issues less concerning um and as those are the folks that are staying in their

2:03:15houses rather than the renters i'm just wondering how how is that materially different because i was

2:03:24kind of warned to not do that and staff are uh supporting this so i'm just wondering what the

2:03:32differences between the two is it is there any other provincial help that will be coming in

2:03:39as a part of this yeah so through the chair to counselor kate so some clarity

2:03:52on what was provided through the legislation just recently and this was the intent was to

2:04:01incentivize new affordable housing units whether it be new builds or new affordable housing units

2:04:11in existing properties so that's the the main intent from the provincial government

2:04:18to incent that piece um hopefully that helps with that explanation thank you um so

2:04:32as one of the groups that would i assume benefit from this would be county housing um

2:04:40would that affect the amount that we would be giving the county because they would have

2:04:47potentially up to 35 percent of their property taxes um waived so i'm just wondering where the

2:04:56where the money like will there be other impacts that are not negative in terms of the cost

2:05:04yeah uh through the chair to counselor kate thanks for that question that's a great question

2:05:09so currently um the housing that is provided by the county is exempt from property taxation

2:05:16through municipal capital facilities agreements um but one thing that i will say that this

2:05:24adoption may do is provide the city a clear direction on what they feel is appropriate from

2:05:38an affordable housing perspective from a discount on such so there have been in other municipalities

2:05:47there have been applications for full exemption or properties that may

2:05:56provide affordable housing outside of the scope with agreements for with a particular

2:06:05level of government this will provide for a definitive process for wealth to say the percentage

2:06:16discount is 35 versus something that might be determined otherwise through an application

2:06:25or appeal process i think this provides the clarity that um we need from a wealth perspective

2:06:35thank you is there any way to get um proper numbers on on like the the hypothetical where it

2:06:44is like the 800 000 just because i feel very uncomfortable approving something without knowing

2:06:50what the actual impact is and i'm not against this like i i really i think it's a good idea in terms of

2:06:57incentivizing lower rents but i can't support something without knowing you know is it going

2:07:04to affect the york road is it going to affect other things are we going to have to push the bus

2:07:07system out like what what is the the amount that it could potentially raise in our taxes

2:07:13like we're doing all of this push on affordability and and squishing in the budget and i i just i'm

2:07:21concerned about where where the balloon pops out with this one and how much of a push that is

2:07:29so um i want to support it but i need i need more information so through the chair to

2:07:35councillor kate the thing is we don't know this is meant to be an incentivized program to

2:07:42incentivize new affordable housing units so i would like to say that it would create you know

2:07:51a thousand new units but but we don't have any way to can potentially control that so

2:07:59we don't have data what this in fact will mean until we know how many affordable units are being

2:08:08built how many units that are out there currently are converted to affordable or are affordable and

2:08:15then they enter into programs with a level of government so it it's not like we have data that

2:08:26can support these are the properties that may be eligible currently there's not that data to support

2:08:32that so and again if we go back to it's really not about a budget number it's about the redistribution

2:08:43or how we're slicing the pie overall from the tax policy perspective through the chair so my my

2:08:49understanding was that we were going to be applying this to current buildings as well as future builds

2:08:55correct through the chair to councillor kate correct uh i think that's a good question

2:09:03through the chair to councillor kate correct um through the chair so it's not possible to find

2:09:09out what the current build number would be because we would have like that should be something that's

2:09:13achievable in terms of getting data right to find out what that direct impact is i understand future

2:09:19you can't predict but we should be able to tell what amount that will take away from our budget

2:09:27okay from the current start through the chair to councillor kate and i don't think we have that

2:09:39data and i don't think we have the ability to know what the uptake on particular agreements would

2:09:47be with in those situations thank you all right any further questions okay um point of order i

2:10:01have two other speakers do you dean okay i have councillor busatiel councillor Allt and the mayor

2:10:06kathryn okay councillor busatiel thank you for the question and answers i think i'm a little bit

2:10:12more confused so the current builds would the only eligible um units would be if they have an agreement

2:10:21with municipal provincial or federal am i correct there through the chair to councillor busatiel

2:10:30correct for current or new builds current or new right so we would have those agreements or they

2:10:36would have to come forward with those agreements and say i have a federal agreement or so on so my

2:10:42second question to that is um this would apply for the duration of the agreement x number of years

2:10:49and who is responsible for monitoring the compliance within that agreement that through the

2:10:58chair to councillor busatiel that would be whoever the agreement is with okay so we make

2:11:04adjustments at our level and we'll have to have some kind of a mechanism to ensure that that is

2:11:10continuing for us to make that adjustment at our level yeah through the chair to councillor busatiel

2:11:17it will be impact that makes that determination and codes the property appropriately okay so the

2:11:25property assessment corporation okay so i'm clear there thank you and and you know i i did listen to

2:11:32councillor katyn and i do recall her speaking about um uh you know tax relief property tax relief

2:11:40as a housing retention strategy we talk about housing and the best strategy is people who are

2:11:46currently house keeping them housed and so i would encourage councillor katyn to talk to

2:11:52our housing staff to explore this because if we have a mechanism in place is there something that

2:11:59can be done to retain um individuals in their housing so i i was surprised um that that we're

2:12:07doing this for new units but at the same time we've got a housing crisis and instead of um people

2:12:14losing their housing and having to be you know part of the 8 000 people that are on a waiting list for

2:12:20deeply affordable public housing how can we retain so i encourage her to explore that further

2:12:26because i do think that's part of the continuum of housing new and retention as well thank you

2:12:34okay councillor Allt thank you very much um having listened also to councillor katyn i did start to

2:12:42have some questions that that arose um mr carter you said we don't know which caused one of the first

2:12:50flags for me um the intention of this is to provide incentive and the next question becomes

2:12:56what kind of a time frame are we looking at through the chair to councillor Allt from a

2:13:05timeframe perspective this would be uh applicable starting january 1st of 2026 and then would go

2:13:14and tell such period of time as council chose to remove this subclass discount and that's that's

2:13:21part of why i'm now struggling a bit with this uh because it strikes me and i'm quite willing to

2:13:27be told that i'm wrong that this at the present time is not data driven but will be future data

2:13:33driven and so there's a couple of things that that are bothering me right now i could say that we

2:13:38target uh many developments that are that are condominiums are projected to be condominiums but

2:13:45because of the market having been driven down on condominiums would be converted into rental units

2:13:51force for rent rather than sale and then reconverted when the market gets stronger will we be getting

2:13:59reports because i'm wondering how easy is it going to be to reverse this the route the chair to

2:14:10council or alt could you expand a little bit more so i could provide the appropriate answer will we

2:14:15be able to reverse this if for example we find that this is not successful at all at developing

2:14:21rental property so through the chair to council or alt if this is not successful in developing

2:14:31affordable housing units then there would be no discount to apply so if there was safe for instance

2:14:41if there was a hundred units that were created over the next two years those hundred units would

2:14:47receive the discount if there were no units created over the next two or 20 years then none would

2:14:53receive a discount and apologies because i'm i guess i'm i'm looking at two different factors

2:14:59not just the units created but the greater affordability of the units that are created how do we

2:15:06how do we assess that that's that's challenging to me i'm not certain that it has been going to

2:15:15interject but the the creation of a sub tax a subclass in our taxation is a council decision

2:15:22so we reverse it through council decision and i understand that but if we don't have the data

2:15:27how do we do sorry point of order madam chair i believe this question has been answered twice now

2:15:35staff indicated that every year a report is done through impact and the and the property is classed

2:15:40as that and so that's the reporting that our staff would get and i'm sorry i just don't think we need

2:15:45to have counselors asking questions that are that are literally five minutes ago already answered

2:15:50but i'll go back to you right as a point of order i recognize that i do think that the question has

2:15:57been answered in different ways so counselor alt if you're asking a different question um perhaps

2:16:04you could rephrase it in a way where mr. krauter can address it in a different way because i do

2:16:09think the question has my my challenge is future data okay i'll jump in here okay through the chair

2:16:16to council what we will do on an annual basis through our tax policy report is we will have the

2:16:22data in that tax policy report that says this amount of assessment is associated with this subclass

2:16:30and that's the discount so it will be very clear and transparent on an annual basis sorry i that's

2:16:38okay that's the answer i was looking for thank you uh mayor guthrie you had a question or a comment

2:16:45yeah some questions through your chair and and i apologize to councillor Allt the way that he

2:16:50phrased the question there when i interrupted him was valid so my apologies to councillor Allt for that

2:16:57i just want to be really uh for me to be as simple as possible you gave us a hypothetical

2:17:04sort of breakdown of math at the beginning when councillor Caton started asking some some valid

2:17:09questions and you said hypothetically there might be like let's say 10 of those those properties come

2:17:16online and are defined appropriately okay and you said that would be an impact of about $800,000

2:17:23so where i think maybe the answer isn't coming from for me anyways is in that hypothetical

2:17:29situation where there's $800,000 that's pushed in one side of the balloon to the other side of the

2:17:35balloon there are other tax classes on this side of the balloon industrial commercial residential

2:17:42pipes in the ground whatever all those different classes what is the impact of that $800,000 to

2:17:48these classes that's i think what everyone wants to kind of understand is it $100 a month to every

2:17:53other residential home in this i'm exaggerating on purpose or is it a dollar a month to every

2:17:59single house in in the residential class on this side of it that i think is where councillor Caton

2:18:04and maybe some others and myself are trying to drill down to the actual impacts of what this is

2:18:09i think we all get the incentive side of this right 100 100 but we just and i you know hopefully

2:18:17we're all kind of on board on this i'm talking to other mayors and other cities that are a thousand

2:18:21percent on board on this but uh we just want to know what the impacts are we just want to know

2:18:25what that would be so that we can tell our community we can tell our constituents what that answer

2:18:30would be if they ask um through through the chair to you mr. mayor maybe just with respect to that

2:18:38ask maybe that's between now uh and council that we could run a bit of a scenario and provide like

2:18:44it like uh but again it would be hypothetical but maybe we could we'll we'll pull that type of

2:18:49analysis together um to help with your decision at the end of the month okay great and then my

2:18:55second question is i i i'm going to kind of come on board with what councillor Caton was asking purely

2:19:00for i think just for clarity's sake she did ask for something a couple years ago at budget

2:19:07we did a few months later then get sort of a that goes in information no it was an actual report

2:19:12i think that came to council about in the similar vein of what's being asked for here now yes we all

2:19:19know is there's a difference that now we have provincial legislation allowing it and there's

2:19:24mechanisms around it but by the end of the month i think i think it's worthy of some sort of a

2:19:32some sort of a chart or something that or a paragraph or something that can say

2:19:36what was asked about this idea a couple years ago compared to what's in front of us today

2:19:42here's the differences i i think that's valid to put that there i would appreciate that information

2:19:48by the end of the month as well because i think we're in a similar realm from what i recall so

2:19:55through the chair to mayor guthrie um and we we will we'll come back with some of that full some

2:20:05details um what i can say is that eight hundred thousand dollar push if that was from a new unit

2:20:12perspective that also means an additional two point two million dollars in taxation

2:20:19that we received for that other 65 percent right so if we're looking at a 35 discount

2:20:26there's an eight hundred thousand dollar reduction but there's that offsetting 65 percent of 2.2 million

2:20:33right so that's a benefit from that perspective um the difference here is that we're talking about

2:20:40multi-residential sector and for those that may have been around longer than others i can remember

2:20:53back in 1998 when the province announced the ability for municipalities to reduce

2:21:04their multi-residential ratio and introduce a new multi-residential tax class

2:21:10and at that time um i wasn't here in guelph guelph did that so they took a multi-residential tax

2:21:19ratio which was two point something at that time and introduced a new multi-residential tax class

2:21:26and that ratio was one so at that point in time council enacted a reduction of over 50 percent

2:21:37in the tax rate for new multi-residential that was being built what we're doing here

2:21:43is the province has now allowed legislation to reduce that further by another 35 percent

2:21:49for just the affordable rental units so it's just one step further that the province has been provided

2:21:58to municipalities to address the affordable housing rental shortage so again if we go back in time

2:22:07over a 50 discount was enacted unanimously across the the the city of guelph and a number of other

2:22:16municipalities did that as well so just a little different lens there all right thank you uh just

2:22:23a comment then madam chair so thank you for bringing this forward i've as i said i've talked to

2:22:27many other municipalities and and mayors and and council and they're they're all implementing this

2:22:32because it is more of a forward thinking incentive program um there may be some uptake of the

2:22:39existing stock but it's more it's it's dangling a carrot basically in front of developers private

2:22:44developers to say hey if you want to help us with the affordable housing stuff we're going to give

2:22:48you a break on this site i appreciate how the reporting is done both for current and for future

2:22:53that's great i think this is a great program don't get me wrong but i think the i think the

2:22:57absence of sort of the impact to the other tax classes if the hypothetical uptake does occur

2:23:03that scenario being laid out in a memo by the end of the month or something like that would be would

2:23:08be fantastic uh with that thank you very much i'm happy to move it by the way i don't know if

2:23:12someone's we don't have a mover in second i so sure by um you're got three seconded by

2:23:18councillor Goller so thank you and i really want to say what a great discussion and additional

2:23:22questions because it's always good for us to make a decision with more information and more

2:23:26clarity so thank you councillor Caton for pulling this item it actually has led to a question that

2:23:30i have um and that is that within the multi residential class we we do have um subclasses

2:23:38already um pre-1989 pre-1987 i think and i do recall in my first term of council or my second or

2:23:46third i'm not sure what year it happened we actually reduced um the pre-1987 construction

2:23:52subclass by more than 2.5 percent and i if i recall and correct me if i'm wrong if a property

2:23:59taxes decrease by more than 2.5 percent or 2.49 percent the landlord is obligated to reduce the

2:24:08rent on that unit to the tenant and it must flow directly to the tenant so under this new

2:24:16tax class if property taxes reduce the overall um tax on the building or the or the structure

2:24:25to the landlord is the landlord obligated and at what point is the landlord obligated to ensure

2:24:32that that reduction is passed on directly to tenants thanks for the question um so you are

2:24:43correct that the rent reduction letters um mandatory will go out to property owners if the

2:24:52reduction is over that 2.49 percent okay that's great and i i think i also saw that councillor

2:25:00billings had her hand up so i'll give the floor to councillor billings sorry if i missed you

2:25:05earlier christine no that's okay through you madam chair uh just the comment about at the end of the

2:25:10month we will get more info and it will still be hypothetical but if you have to sign up

2:25:16municipally or federal and provincially we would know the municipal numbers so why can't we get the

2:25:22the provincial and federal numbers for what's currently out there by the end of the month so

2:25:41through the chair to councillor billings um i guess we don't know what those current agreements

2:25:59are or if there are any in place there may not be any but but we could check into it could we not

2:26:08then so that by the end of the month it just wouldn't be so hypothetical right but then we

2:26:17don't know who may or may not apply for new agreements or whatever the it may be so it's it

2:26:24this is really about the fundamental decision by council if they want to support affordable

2:26:36rental housing okay and whether or not they want to do so through just new housing so it could just

2:26:46be for the new stuff the new nt portion or it could be for the existing mt portion so the previous

2:26:56two 97 or it could be just for the 98 to current as well so there's really three buckets here

2:27:07what we proposed from a staff perspective is to include all multi-residential across the board

2:27:14but it could just be broken down into re 97 which was mt the nt class which was 98 to current

2:27:24or new new multi-residential which is would be after january 1st of 2026

2:27:34so um through uh through the chair i think i'm just going to jump in i think uh you're hearing

2:27:38that we we aren't sure how to identify what agreements are in place with other levels of

2:27:44government who holds those agreements we'll do our best to look into that maybe ask ask our county

2:27:52partners but but there's really no um guarantee that by the end of the month that type of um

2:27:59information will be known um in the memo just per what what staff have provided we can break that down

2:28:06a little bit further on these options that you just heard about um but i did want to say that the

2:28:11reason this is before you and i think we just got there um we in december um well not we but staff

2:28:18presented and you you approved a housing affordability strategy and so you know the reason this is in

2:28:24front of you and and so quickly after the provincial government has put this in place is because we're

2:28:31trying to be as quick as possible um to adopt legislation when we can because we heard from you

2:28:38that this is a significant priority in guelph um and so that is what we're doing here today and

2:28:45and when we move quick we don't always have the time to bring you all of that type of data so

2:28:51we will do what we can by the end of the month um but but this is really a policy decision that um

2:29:00is a new tool that is now allowed and we're we're here to recommend that for your consideration

2:29:07you you absolutely it's within your control if you don't feel comfortable because of the lack of

2:29:11data but i just just really want to reinforce that we're moving as fast as we can because we heard

2:29:17that that was a priority from council thanks miss baker i really appreciate that that wrap up i know

2:29:23that the questions your staff have been asked are very specific about impacts and we don't have all

2:29:29those answers but you've you've wrapped it up in a nice policy strategic policy bow for our

2:29:35consideration so unless i see any other hands for um questions or comments we do have three

2:29:42recommended oh we do have uh councillor Caton and councillor billings again so uh more questions

2:29:50and comments and then we'll move to ratify councillor Caton thank you um just a comment

2:29:58i'll be fast uh i just wanted like i'm going to give it a tentative yes because i believe that you

2:30:03will try to get the the data um i just i think that there's there's stuff we can learn and and

2:30:11i'm hopeful we'll get it in time thanks um councillor billings yes through you madam chair it was

2:30:18because i never got to ask my questions um oh my apologies so okay so what i didn't understand

2:30:25with respect to the report was staff recommending for you know the current and you know future uh

2:30:33units and the reason why is because right now the waving of development charges i can remember

2:30:39not that long ago uh council was debating a 500 000 to put towards affordable housing

2:30:47and now we're waiving millions of dollars for affordable housing units and we've seen

2:30:53at the planning meetings applications coming forward for affordable units so i guess what

2:31:01i don't understand is for the new builds when we're the taxpayer is picking up this dc shortfall

2:31:08which is quite hefty why would we incentivize for the new builds that's the part that didn't make

2:31:15any sense to me so that's why i was wondering if staff could comment on that i understand the current

2:31:21stock i'm talking about the new builds that are receiving the millions of dollars of of dcs that

2:31:27are are waived um so uh through through uh chair Caron to councillor Busuttil i think that that at

2:31:42the end of you know the day this is really a policy decision yes there's a there's a financial impact

2:31:49we through through the housing affordability strategy it's been directed that affordable

2:31:54housing is important and this is another tool and there's absolutely like like's been been discussed

2:32:01this is a reduction in property taxation um to incent affordable housing and so um

2:32:09all right besides that um that is really uh the the tool that that the province has now

2:32:17put on the table for consideration here and we are recommending that given the importance and

2:32:24given the direction from council this is a way in which you could incent more housing uh affordable

2:32:30housing so um with that that's uh that's why we're recommending it and uh and it's really over uh to

2:32:38to council for that that determination thanks madam chair i'm going to ask my other questions

2:32:45between now and the end of the month okay no further questions no further comments okay let's

2:32:53move this forward if there's anyone who is opposed to the three recommendations on the floor

2:32:58seeing none uh that motion is passed oh sorry christine sorry i've learned to look at the

2:33:09the monitor as well one opposed okay um staff announcements service area announcements so i'll

2:33:17call on um acting deputy ceo matthews if there is any departmental announcements i'm seeing no