Committee of the Whole

27:33Okay, I'm gonna call the committee the whole meeting to order for March the 4th.

27:39The mayor is absent today, so I'm filling in at the time being.

27:46First on our agenda will be going into encamera in a while. So is there any disclosure pecuniary interest from anyone?

27:53Okay seeing none. I know I need an authority to move into a closed meeting a motion

28:01to

28:03go into camera under section 239 of the Municipal Act

28:09regarding advice that is subject to solicitor client privilege including communications necessary for that purpose and a

28:16position plan procedure

28:18criteria or instruction to be applied to any negotiations carried on or to be carried on by

28:24or on behalf the municipality or the local board and

28:28And we'll be going in under the Guelph

28:323.3 the Gulf storm hockey club operating agreement and corporate

28:37cybersecurity briefing

28:40Councillor

28:41Quran moves that we can move into closed council do so tail second edge

28:46So any opposition? Okay that

28:50Passes

28:51We'll see everybody in a while. Thank you

28:54Well, thank you everyone for being here and our my apologies for being a little bit late on the start

1:13:57We've just come

1:13:59From a closed meeting where we discussed two items the Gulf storm hockey club operating agreement and the corporate

1:14:07cybersecurity briefing for 2026 and

1:14:10Council gave direction to staff on both of those items. I

1:14:15will

1:14:16start the

1:14:18Open portion of the meeting. I did receive regrets from Mayor Guthrie and Councillor Gibson

1:14:23If I could ask everyone to please stand up for the national anthem

1:14:28And please do sing along if you're in the room and you'd like to I would like to take a moment now for silent reflection

1:16:04I will now read the indigenous territorial acknowledgement

1:16:50As we gather

1:16:52Let's take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work in Guelph a

1:16:56City built over rich indigenous histories

1:16:59We are guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land the people who live here today and

1:17:07Generations to come if our actions today can move us towards reconciliation

1:17:12We should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude

1:17:17This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for many people over time

1:17:24But more specifically the Ati Wanderak and the Hadrona Shawnee

1:17:30This land is held as the treaty lands and territory of the Mississauga's of the Credit First Nation

1:17:36Well flies directly adjacent to the Haldeman tract and is part of a long-established traditional hunting ground for the six nations of the Grand River

1:17:46many first nations Inui and

1:17:49Meti peoples who have come from across Turtle Island called Guelph home today to

1:17:59Move on to item six in our agenda. I'm going to turn things over

1:18:04to Councillor Caron for some recognitions of staff accomplishments

1:18:11Great. Thank you chair Goller. We have a lot of recognitions today

1:18:15And we're really proud as a council to be able to

1:18:18applaud all of our staff who do work above and beyond their their daily duties. So today we are

1:18:26On behalf of council it is our pleasure to recognize

1:18:31Adelene

1:18:32Ishimwe who has successfully earned her project management professional PMP certification from the project management Institute

1:18:40This certification is a testament to Adelene's

1:18:44dedication, expertise and commitment to excellence in project management. The PMP certification is recognized globally and

1:18:52signifies that she has met rigorous standards and possesses the skills necessary to lead and direct projects

1:18:59effectively and that benefits not only our

1:19:02City Hall as a corporation, but our community as a whole so congratulations Adelene

1:19:07And the next item is our leadership Academy cohort number five

1:19:17Wow, there's there's a lot of names here

1:19:20Which means that this leadership Academy is and striving for excellence has become part of our corporate culture

1:19:26So today it's my pleasure to recognize the City of Guelph's fifth cohort to complete the city's leadership Academy a

1:19:32Program that builds leadership through skills through a combination of classroom and practical hands-on learning

1:19:38Being recognized today are 17 employees. I think this is our biggest cohort yet

1:19:44Who have participated in this leadership development program each person dedicating more than 40 hours to improve their skills and knowledge

1:19:51to benefit their leadership practices and

1:19:54Contribute to an innovative service oriented and high performing high performing work culture in the city

1:20:01Program participants complete 13 courses and a capstone project that benefits the city's work to deliver responsible and responsive

1:20:10Public service to Guelph's growing and diverse community

1:20:13Participants deliver their capstone project presentation to the executive team. That's not nerve-wracking at all. I'm sure

1:20:19This work is done in addition to their regular work and demonstrates both the commitment of participants to the corporate value of learning

1:20:26With that said, I would like to recognize the following city employees for their participation their hard work and their continued dedication

1:20:34Today we are honoring Abbey Spielmacher

1:20:38Adam Wilczek Bill Bond Diane Inkster

1:20:43Eleanor Gillan Eric Lucko

1:20:46Jane Gurney Ken Piper

1:20:50Kim Krocek

1:20:52Michael Bartholomew

1:20:54Monica Silva Rebecca Thaler

1:20:57Savan Harsh

1:20:59Sheena Switzer

1:21:00Stacy Lachlan Stephanie Guy and Susan O'Toole

1:21:05So on behalf of my fellow council colleagues

1:21:08Congratulations on your success and thank you for the work you do on behalf of the city of Guelph

1:21:13So for those who are here today who participated in the Leadership Academy cohort five

1:21:18Since there's so many of you. I'd like to take the opportunity to invite you to gather for a group photo

1:21:23And we are going to the Galleria. I believe for that photo

1:21:28Because our little backdrop here doesn't quite have enough room for all of you. So

1:21:32And maybe a round of applause

1:21:37We'll take a couple of minutes to step up to the Galleria take a couple photos and then we'll continue the meeting. Well, thank you

1:24:44Thank you everyone

1:24:46That moves us on to the next agenda item

1:24:50We have the consent agenda for governance and I'll turn things over to chair Busuttil

1:24:58Thank you

1:24:59Chair Goller, this is a consent item. You have the report and the recommendation in front of you

1:25:07If someone is willing to place the motion of receipt Councillor Caron

1:25:12seconded by

1:25:13Councillor Richardson and

1:25:17Just if if there is anyone opposed or have any questions

1:25:22Okay seeing none. I think that carries them. Thank you

1:25:30Thank you so much chair Busuttil

1:25:33So we've recorded that as a unanimous vote

1:25:35To approve the report for the law is registry year one

1:25:40Then we're moving along on our agenda. We're going over to chair

1:25:45Tehran for item 11 the administrative development charge by lab. I'll turn things over to you

1:25:52Okay, thank you chair Goller got two fairly major items today and that is the administrative development charge by law

1:25:59And the property tax policy, so I'm going to turn it over. We have a presentation for the first item

1:26:05Shana O'Dwyer and Justin way in our

1:26:09Finance department over to you for our presentation

1:26:13Good morning members of council. My name is Justin way and I'm the manager of financial strategy and reporting

1:26:25I'm pleased to be before you today to present an overview of the administrative updates to the DC by-law that are recommended in the staff reports

1:26:35I'll then turn it over to Shana to provide an update on what other municipalities are doing with DC incentives

1:26:41So over the past 20 months or so there have been three major pieces of legislation that have impacted the DC act

1:26:51There are bills 185 bill 17 bill 60

1:26:54If you recall our DC by-law was last updated in November 2024 for some of the changes made through bill 185

1:27:01That had a special transitional pathway in timeline

1:27:04The remaining change related to updating the rate freeze provisions is being made through this update as it was not included in that previous

1:27:11special process

1:27:12The second item is bill 17 which received real assent in June 2025

1:27:16This was followed by an order in council on October 23 for changes in effect as of November 3rd and

1:27:23The impact of this was a deferral DC payment timing from building permit issuance to occupancy

1:27:29Then lastly bill 60 which received real assent in November November 2025

1:27:33While while there are a few administrative updates that go into effect right away most of those changes

1:27:39And impacts require some future work ahead

1:27:42So the DC by-law update before council for approval today is administrative in nature

1:27:50It primarily includes changes that align our DC by-law with legislation

1:27:55Some minor housekeeping items to clarify definitions and it does not alter growth forecast capital requirements or any DC rates

1:28:02The first change is related to bill 185 which limits the timeline for a DC rate freeze to 18 months

1:28:08Prior to this DC rates were frozen at the time of a complete site plan application

1:28:12We're zoning by-law amendments and they're frozen from two years from that date of application approval

1:28:18Going forward. They'll be frozen for 18 months interest continues to accrue on the frozen DC rates from the time of the planning application

1:28:24And that has not changed and really the objective of this change is to speed up development once planning approvals are in place

1:28:31The second and biggest change was from bill 17 which has updated the timing of payments from building permit issuance to occupancy

1:28:37And this will have a substantial impact on the timing of our DC collections and we'll look into that estimate of this impact on the next slide

1:28:45It's also important to note as interest is no longer to be charged from the DC's owing from building permit dates to occupancy

1:28:52We see the time value of money also erode from this change

1:28:55Nevertheless the building community strongly advocated for this change as it will reduce the carrying charges

1:29:00They have on a development's ultimately improving the proformers

1:29:03So looking at the financial impact at payment at occupancy. There's several items to note

1:29:11The delayed payment timing will result in cash flow pressures for the city

1:29:16Decrease present value of our DC revenues loss interest earnings or greater interest costs from increased requirements debt finance and greater uncertainty in time

1:29:24your receipt

1:29:25For this analysis the finance team were closely with the building team to pull data on the average number of months between building permit issuance and occupancy

1:29:33For residential development at the city by type

1:29:36So the first table on left shows that the average range is for from nine nine months

1:29:4117 months and 14 months for low medium and high density respectively

1:29:44We then apply this data to the forecast DC collections, which was prepared previously when collection was at building permit issuance

1:29:52So with the chart you see what they tried on the right you'll see that this estimated impact

1:29:56Will be in the range of 10 to 20 million over the next three years

1:30:00Staff will continue to track and report on this impact through a quarterly budget monitoring reports

1:30:05But it's very likely that additional capital deferrals will be required through future capital budget updates in order to manage these impacts

1:30:11And then lastly we'll look at bill 60

1:30:17So there's two changes

1:30:19Effective immediate immediately upon royal assent and these are primarily related to reporting an oversight

1:30:24So firstly there's a new requirements have the annual DC statements go to council by June 30th and submitted to the minister by July 15th

1:30:31Secondly the minister may request copies are DC bylaws and background studies at any time

1:30:36Overall happy to report these changes are not a concern as we're already producing these documents within those required timelines

1:30:42So we have no problem submitting them to the province through the required deadlines

1:30:45And then there's two major changes or sorry two main changes that require some future work ahead for the city

1:30:51First local service policy or LSPs

1:30:54So bill 60 introduced a requirement to include LSP as part of the DC background study

1:30:59While some municipalities don't have LSP in place

1:31:02Well, DC background study does and only a minor only minor updates would be needed to bring it fully into compliance with the new requirements

1:31:09However, the city's last major review and update of the LSP occurred with the 2018 DC background study

1:31:15So staff I recommend a more fulsome review and update to be completed and brought back to council for approval by May

1:31:212027 and that timelines in alignment with the transition timelines provided for in the legislation and

1:31:26Really this review would help identify any opportunities to improve clarity and predictability around the LSP and ultimately support the next

1:31:33comprehensive DC background study update, which is currently planned to begin in 2027 for council approval in 2029

1:31:40Secondly it's an is a new land acquisition class

1:31:43So bill 60 and introduced a requirement to separate land costs

1:31:46Into a separate class of service in DC bylaws and as part of this to remove land values from the historic service level standards for each individual service

1:31:55And the transition timelines require this work to be done as part of the next comprehensive DC background study update

1:32:00Which as mentioned slated to begin in 2027 and coming to council in 2029

1:32:06And with that I'll hand it over to Shannon for the last few slides

1:32:14Thank You Justin and good morning council

1:32:17So these days there is always a lot going on with development charges and that includes legislative changes

1:32:24Lobbying by the building community

1:32:26Analysis being undertaken by think tanks and initiatives being undertaken by municipalities

1:32:31So while we're in front of you on this topic. We wanted to take the opportunity to update you on what we're seeing out there from other municipalities

1:32:47So last year we brought you information in the March housing and wealth semi-annual update

1:32:52About what some municipalities had done with respect to providing discounts or exemptions from DC's

1:32:58Since then some of those discounts have been expanded and others have begun to explore incentives

1:33:04For example last year we reported to you that Mississauga had partially discounted their DC rates

1:33:09And since then they have expanded that to a full grant in lieu for some types of residential building

1:33:15Peel region has matched this initiative with both set to expire at the end of this council term

1:33:20The city of London is currently in the process of exploring a community improvement plan to provide support for first-time home buyers and

1:33:27Last fall the city of Burlington directed

1:33:30Their staff to bring back options for DC incentives

1:33:34These approaches vary in scope duration and fiscal exposure

1:33:38Some have funding commitments from other levels of government to support their changes and others do not

1:33:44We are providing this update to let you know that we are monitoring what others are doing and why we do not recommend going down this path in Guelph

1:33:57As a reminder DC rates are set to recover the capital costs of infrastructure that support growth within

1:34:03Legislated constraints

1:34:05The rates are a mathematical calculation that spreads the eligible capital costs across forecasted growth

1:34:12Providing an exemption from paying DCs creates a gap because it does not make the infrastructure cost less

1:34:18It simply provides less funds to pay for it

1:34:22The exemption gap must be filled and municipalities have very limited options for how to do that

1:34:27namely property taxes and utility rates

1:34:31Guelph has highly prioritized growth enabling capital works in our capital budget and forecast

1:34:36Even in the face of low DC collections using debt financing and inter-reserve fund borrowing

1:34:43This means that the city is committed to DC debt payments that non-eligible capital work has been deferred to accommodate

1:34:50Inter-reserve fund borrowing this puts pressure on older infrastructure and increases the risk of service disruption

1:34:56And that is a trade-off for moving infrastructure that supports growth forward in the face of limited capital funds

1:35:03There are also significant statutory discounts and exemptions already required

1:35:09Targeted at development that the province has prioritized

1:35:12Rental housing affordable and nonprofit housing and additional dwelling units

1:35:17Making up for these exemptions is already diverting a significant amount of property tax and utility utility rates supported capital funding

1:35:25to help pay for growth

1:35:27The development community has been very

1:35:30Active in advocating for DC related changes and reductions and have become very effective at it

1:35:36They recently successfully advocated for moving payment of residential DCs from building permit to occupancy as you just heard from Justin

1:35:44This has been in place since November 3rd, but so far we have not seen this result in increased building permits

1:35:51We are hopeful that will change

1:35:59Zeroing in on Burlington for a moment this slide shows what services are included in Guelph single-tier DC

1:36:06Versus Burlington's lower tier and Halton's upper tier DCs

1:36:10Burlington has not finalized their direct direction forward at this time

1:36:14But one option that was moved forward at a vote of their committee of the whole in February was a broad-based residential DC exemption

1:36:22Earlier this week they voted instead to direct their staff to pursue a potential CIP option

1:36:28With funding from another source aside from property taxes

1:36:32While Burlington's ultimate decision on this matter is uncertain

1:36:35We wanted to show you some of the differences between Guelph and Burlington a

1:36:40Burlington exemption would only apply to the lower tier portion of the DC

1:36:45The Halton region DC would still be applicable to development in Burlington and even with a full lower tier exemption

1:36:51The cost of building a single detached residential unit in Burlington would be just under

1:36:57$7,000 less than the undiscounted rate in Guelph

1:37:00The other thing to point out is that some of the core enabling services like water wastewater and storm water

1:37:06Would not be impacted as those services are provided at the regional level

1:37:11So what if Guelph did that?

1:37:14Based on planning application status there are 654 units ready and fairly likely to move ahead to building permit in

1:37:212026 and

1:37:23171 more units with the potential to do so if

1:37:27Guelph implemented a blanket residential DC exemption similar to that which Burlington was considering at one point

1:37:34That would require municipal tax and ratepayers to make up for over 46 million dollars in DC exemptions a

1:37:40Property tax impact of 8.85 percent

1:37:44plus increases to water rates and that would be in addition to the nearly 18 million of

1:37:49statutory DC exemptions and discounts that would already need to be funded

1:37:54For the rental and affordable or nonprofit units included in those estimates

1:37:59So this is a chart that you've seen before and this version was updated for us last August by Watson and Associates

1:38:11The green arrow shows you where Guelph's residential DCs are in comparison with other municipalities all in including the school board DCs

1:38:19We felt it was important to show this given recent inaccurate reports that Guelph's DCs are at the higher end

1:38:26That is simply not true

1:38:33The reality is that limited municipal revenue tools combined with high a high level of responsibility for infrastructure is

1:38:41creating an untenable financial situation if

1:38:44DCs are reduced the city's options are to defer growth

1:38:49Infrastructure investment indefinitely

1:38:51constraining growth and working against our responsibility to build infrastructure to enable

1:38:56legislative growth targets to be met or

1:38:59To remove amenity based infrastructure from our DCs and only deliver core infrastructure

1:39:04Which puts pressure on the municipal infrastructure that makes a community or?

1:39:09Shift additional cost to the property tax and rate base

1:39:13Over the past several years the province has made dozens of changes to DC and planning legislation

1:39:20Every time it requires analysis

1:39:23Quantification of impacts reporting communication adjustments to financial strategies

1:39:29adjustments to administrative processes and systems and bylaw updates

1:39:33Every time there's an announcement from any level of government about an intent to look into or do something related to reduce DCs or

1:39:41Other changes to make development conditions more favorable

1:39:45The effect is to freeze up development plans until that policy is either implemented or determined not to be moving forward a

1:39:53New approach is needed

1:39:55Attempting to incentivize development through constant legislative changes has not had the desired effect

1:40:01We need an approach that is administratively efficient and does not place all the risk and financial burden on municipalities

1:40:09We need new

1:40:11Stable predictable funding for growth infrastructure from other upper levels of government

1:40:16I have emphasized or underlined the word new on the slide

1:40:20Because I don't mean the repurposing of existing infrastructure funding such as federal gas tax

1:40:25Which we already rely on for capital infrastructure renewal work

1:40:30Stable and predictable means a long-term commitment to annual allocations that we do not have to submit applications for

1:40:37With uncertain outcomes and unknown approval timelines

1:40:41Upfront means that upper levels of government do not require municipalities to take on risky decisions to provide

1:40:48time limited exemptions

1:40:50Underwritten by property tax and ratepayers and hope for that money to come

1:40:56It means new dedicated funding for growth infrastructure that municipalities can count on

1:41:02With that kind of commitment we could update our DC study

1:41:05Reduce DC rates without jeopardizing our capital plans and without pushing the cost on to property taxpayers

1:41:13so that's

1:41:14everything I have to

1:41:16Share and we're happy to take any questions from council

1:41:22Thank you so much for that presentation and that call to action for for legislative stability was really really hit

1:41:28It was I'm glad you added that to your slide as

1:41:32a call to action at the end

1:41:34Before we go to council questions, I recognize councillor Allt as the first question

1:41:40We are under a public meeting under section 12 of the development charges act

1:41:45So I do need to call for anyone in the audience

1:41:48If you are here to delegate and there will be a number going up on the screen if there's anyone watching from home

1:41:54Who would like to delegate on this matter now is the time to call in so we'll take a

1:42:00few minutes to pause and wait for any

1:42:04Calls to come in is there anyone in the gallery who wishes to delegate on this item?

1:42:09Seeing none, we'll just wait one moment

1:42:12We've had no incoming call. So we're going to move to discussion

1:42:50Councillor Allt you have the floor

1:42:52Thank you very much chair Caron

1:42:55through you to to our staff and in particular to

1:43:00Mizzow Dwyer with first of all a shout out

1:43:03I want to compliment our staff and particularly Mizzow Dwyer on perhaps the most blatantly

1:43:11Political financial report that I have ever seen at City Council and one that is both direct and forthright and founded in fact

1:43:21Mizzow Dwyer, I think you might be my first financial being counter hero

1:43:26It's something that we need to hear and it's something that every municipality in Ontario needs to state

1:43:33Because Doug Ford does it again with that I'd like to go to some of the particulars

1:43:38I originally only had one question

1:43:40But as the as the report went on more grew first of all, I'd like to focus on bill 17 and interest versus carrying

1:43:48Charges some comments were made about capital deferrals and this strikes me as a vicious cycle that we're now entering into

1:43:56Could we please comment on what kind of capital deferrals we might have to address?

1:44:02Will these be infrastructure and will these interestingly enough therefore lead to fewer building permits possibly being

1:44:13Approved because we just don't have the infrastructure. I don't know whether that's to our

1:44:18Financial staff or whether our planning staff needs to address it

1:44:24through the chair, I'll start

1:44:26and so I think

1:44:28the level of deferrals of

1:44:32Capital works through the next budget cycle and future budget cycles will really be dependent on how those estimates bear out in reality

1:44:40in terms of the

1:44:42Delayed collections and how that impacts what we had projected

1:44:47And so we will take you know the usual methodical approach that we take to updating the capital forecast

1:44:54We'll update those projections. We will

1:44:58make other changes if we get any

1:45:01Grants or if we end up closing out capital projects at under budget and are able to return money to the reserve funds

1:45:09So all of that will factor into that next update

1:45:12And then we will rely on our capital prioritization framework

1:45:16to figure out which

1:45:19projects to

1:45:20push out

1:45:22Thank you. I wanted to comment on what I consider to be the incredible irony that this could actually

1:45:29lead to a

1:45:32Hesitation of builders to actually consider large-scale developments because the infrastructure or

1:45:39Other amenities just aren't there. Is that a correct assumption and is the the promise of the three million homes actually

1:45:48That we've heard

1:45:50Really just dust in the wind

1:45:55Thank you through the chair. I'll start and then others to my left may have thoughts on that

1:46:00I think that absolutely that there's a cycle there to look at with infrastructure

1:46:08We need to build enabling infrastructure to allow development to happen and we're doing our best to move that forward

1:46:14In the face of all of these changes recognizing the need for that development

1:46:19But there is a time that will come that that high priority items

1:46:24We are we have we've deferred all the medium priority

1:46:28We started to defer some of the

1:46:31Medium-high priority last year and so there's not that much further to go in the future

1:46:37Besides high priority deferrals. I think so there there's absolutely a circular effect that will will happen now

1:46:44We do have our

1:46:46Municipal service and financing agreements policy in place so that if we've deferred

1:46:52Infrastructure out in our capital budget, but a developer is ready to move something forward

1:46:57ahead of that timeline there is a pathway for them to do that and so

1:47:02So we've we've tried to balance that impact

1:47:05Are there comments from the other side? I don't know I can't see

1:47:13Through through the chair, I think I just say that

1:47:17In terms of the prioritization already done we were prioritizing city-wide projects that would

1:47:24advance city-wide growth

1:47:27Rather than site specific and so

1:47:30I think that that would be the first place that you would that we would see a bit of a change is that we would

1:47:38We would

1:47:40Potentially be impacting specific developments if we had to go any further than we are right now. So hopefully that that helps

1:47:48Kind of round out the the question

1:47:51If I might carry that on then

1:47:54Quite often there are

1:47:58I'm chair quarterbacks, I guess I'll say who are constantly talking about libraries and rec centers

1:48:05We're not talking libraries and rec centers here. Are we we're talking about the very foundations of building it? Are we not?

1:48:15Through the mayor or sorry rather the chair

1:48:18we are talking about all of the

1:48:22Infrastructure that supports growth and so there's different priority levels for different types of infrastructure and that enabling infrastructure as

1:48:31CAO Baker mentioned that serves the whole city

1:48:35such as water

1:48:36stations

1:48:37Waste water facilities that are needed that would constrain growth across the whole city if they weren't moved forward is what we've prioritized

1:48:46Thank you. I think that's very important for people to hear

1:48:49I want to go to bill 60 land acquisition

1:48:53Class the new class system

1:48:56There's a

1:48:57It's implied and I think that you stated it that there is a reduction of the cost to the actual

1:49:03Builders and developers and that this is going to be passed on to the to the taxpayers

1:49:09Do we have any idea because this is a huge issue?

1:49:13We have a you know an 8% or more tax increase this year

1:49:18What you're telling me is that the new normal is 8% and beyond and I was wondering if you could comment on that please

1:49:27Through the chair, I might have to help you might have to help me parse that question apart a little bit counselor alt

1:49:33So the land acquisition class

1:49:36So that is that essentially will take land costs for growth and separate them out of the existing

1:49:44Services like services for a highway or recreation and parks take those out and put them in their own class

1:49:50And so the impact of that overall is we don't know what that is at this time

1:49:56We don't expect it to be a very significant impact actually because we still will be able to

1:50:02Collect DCs for land

1:50:04But we have to do that analysis and that will happen through the next development charge background study update

1:50:11And thank you essentially you answered the question

1:50:14I'm a little relieved by your answer to be perfectly honest because I'd expected it to be greater

1:50:21So again, thank you very much to our financial staff for this and I I cannot

1:50:28Say anything more than

1:50:30Residents concerned about taxes need to remember Doug Ford does it again

1:50:36Thank you counselor out for your questions. I have on the speaker's list counselor busatil and goller

1:50:43That's a busatil. Thank you through the chair

1:50:45I have most of my questions have been asked by a counselor alt

1:50:49But I do also want to say ditto in terms of appreciation

1:50:53For the staff this report was excellent in in fact really making the connection between

1:50:58The centralized provincial kind of regulations and the impact locally

1:51:03Tax base and our capital planning

1:51:06As well. I did have a question and it's a clarification

1:51:10I wasn't clear in the report for mr. Way when when we talk around bill 60 and the reporting cycle

1:51:17I know we do the reports here at city council, but I'm curious about whether or not or not

1:51:22This is a new centralized requirement to report to the province

1:51:28Because I don't recall that

1:51:30Yes through the care. I believe it is a new centralized

1:51:34Report and requirement to the province that being said there's been no

1:51:39Details fully released yet as to how we submit our reports

1:51:44But we are confident that you know within those timeframes we already generate those reports

1:51:48So as soon as we know when and where we need to submit it, we'll do a no problem

1:51:53Thank you. And if the chair will allow me a comment, I you know

1:51:57Uh

1:51:58Just from other areas

1:52:00In the in the province. I guess for me this is where is this trend line going in terms of centralization and planning in the g

1:52:08RCA environmental protection and so on this reporting and I and I come from a highly regulated

1:52:14ministry of education where

1:52:16Everything is centralized and improved from capital to everything else and as we see the

1:52:22Infrastructure pilot project happening next door with brampton. I'm concerned about the centralization

1:52:28And the increasing control and monitoring

1:52:31Not only downwards in terms of the regulation in the acts but upwards in terms of who determines

1:52:37What are the priorities here in guelph? What are the capital priorities as we heard and so on?

1:52:41So just a little bit of concern about where is this trend line going? Thank you

1:52:46Thanks, councillor Busuttil. Uh, councillor Goller over to you. We don't have the recommendations on the floor yet

1:52:50Would you be willing to place us on the floor seconded by

1:52:53councillor hauser

1:52:56Floor service. Uh, thank you and through you chair Caron

1:52:59Um, I really appreciate this report and the explanation you gave that it is very clear to me

1:53:05I do have one outstanding question from some of the the

1:53:09One letter from the the constitution that wrote in and some of the messages I've received from the home builders

1:53:16Um, you sort of debunked the idea that if we lower these things we would actually see more builds

1:53:22But just so that I fully understand if we were to reduce or eliminate

1:53:28Development charges for residential and if they were to be those those buildings that are built

1:53:34um, I understand that

1:53:36The argument that they're making is we're losing that potential

1:53:40Additional tax revenue from those buildings if they're delayed for a few years

1:53:45How many years would it take for for a bill to sort of make up the development charges?

1:53:51And just at a high level and then also if we were to

1:53:56You know based on on the approvals of this year if we were to have no development charges for next year

1:54:02What would that require of the tax impact?

1:54:05To to the taxpayer so that I can understand that that level of impact

1:54:10Through the chair, so I'll start with the first part

1:54:14That's a complicated question

1:54:17and so the the

1:54:19Assessment growth revenue is what they'd be talking about and there's there's that side of the equation

1:54:24Absolutely, but the other side of that equation is that growth comes with new expenses

1:54:29That have to let new services expanded services to serve additional residents. And so it's not just a net

1:54:37New impact the other thing is that that assessment growth revenue also builds the capacity to renew

1:54:44the growth the infrastructure that is built with development charges

1:54:48Upfront down the road as those that infrastructure ages that contributes to the renewal dollars

1:54:54So that is why there is a separate revenue stream for building that growth enabling infrastructure

1:55:00So to to suggest that assessment growth revenue should be used for growth enabling infrastructure

1:55:06I think is is not quite correct

1:55:09Um, and then can you repeat the second part of your question for me?

1:55:12If we were to have no development charges say in 2026

1:55:17What would be the impact to the taxpayer because as I understand that we would still have to put in the infrastructure

1:55:22We would be spending the money to to

1:55:25To build that infrastructure

1:55:27What might that impact be to the taxpayer?

1:55:29Next year if we were to do that just so that I understand that a high level, you know, what level of impact this would make

1:55:36Sure, so we tried to quantify that by looking at the planning applications that are in progress and what the status of those are

1:55:45And so I had mentioned on one of my slides that um, I think there's over 600 that are

1:55:51ready like ready to move forward and then there's 800 and some more that are

1:55:57Potential in 2026 and so we quantified the impact of if there were no residential if they were exempted

1:56:05Not deferred but exempted then that would be about 46 million dollars

1:56:10Which is over 8 percent and I don't have that slide right in front of me right now, but oh 8.85 percent tax levy impact

1:56:19Plus an impact to water wastewater and storm water rates

1:56:24Okay, okay. So so if if next year tax levy were to be like five percent on top of this it would end up being like 13 percent

1:56:31Is that roughly correct?

1:56:33That's roughly correct. If that that development all moved forward. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. That really helps me understand the

1:56:41Um, how much we're being asked to to put up uh from the taxpayers. Thank you. Thank you councillor uh chair karana

1:56:48Thanks, councillor councillor hauser

1:56:51Thank you and through the chair um

1:56:54Following up I had a very similar question but to follow up on that

1:56:57Are these conversations? I know that it the province changed from permit to occupancy for the dc charges

1:57:02Are these conversations helping or?

1:57:06like

1:57:07Causing a greater destabilization because we're now waiting now builders may be waiting for are they going to do waivers now instead?

1:57:14Are they going to waive them completely or eliminate dc charges?

1:57:17Or do you think could that be contributing to the fact that there hasn't been an uptake?

1:57:23Through the chair, I do think so. I do think that every time there's a policy that's announced

1:57:29Or a potential consideration of of a policy by upper levels of government or any level of government

1:57:36That that potentially has a freezing impact on development because there's the potential to have a more favorable condition in the future

1:57:45If you wait for that thing to materialize and so I do think that that has to be a part of what's contributing to this

1:57:55Thank you

1:57:57Councillor Chew

1:58:00Thank you through you, madam chair

1:58:02Um, I'm just looking at that letter as well that was sent out by the constitution and they mentioned barry

1:58:08as an example of the dc waivers

1:58:13Being as a correlation to the housing starts that they had in that municipality

1:58:17And uh, I'm just wondering based on your knowledge. Um, if not, it's okay as well

1:58:22What are kind of the conditions that kind of allowed them to kind of take that gamble?

1:58:28um in barry and what are the constraints that we may have in doing something

1:58:35similar or modest

1:58:39Uh through the chair, so I don't actually have specifics of the barry situation to

1:58:44Explain what they've done or or how they're paying for it. Um, but

1:58:49There's different arrangements. There's different grants that

1:58:53Have been provided to various municipalities from upper levels of government that they're using for some of these initiatives

1:58:59And some are not doing that and I'm not sure there there some are taking on a risk

1:59:05And so that's why we tried to quantify that risk for you to show you what that could look like based on realistic

1:59:13planning like development that could move forward

1:59:17If you were to consider such a

1:59:20Policy

1:59:24Thank you

1:59:26Any more questions or comments on this item from members of council?

1:59:30Um, I have a quick question. Um, you know when in the development industry

1:59:34You know, they have a pro forma that they work with and and

1:59:38ROI return on their investment as part of that pro forma and rightfully so any developer or home builder

1:59:44They've got land acquisition carrying costs

1:59:47There's lots of reasons, uh, you know that their costs are escalating and they they want to return on investment and deserve that as well

1:59:55In the current, uh legislation and in any of our policies, however

2:00:01When a waiver is embedded in the cost, uh of dc's for any form of building, there's no

2:00:08Condition that we can impose that forces a builder to pass that savings on to the purchaser

2:00:16Um, is that is that correct in other words?

2:00:20You know if they're a market housing builder, they're selling their product at market

2:00:25We don't see that dc waiver embedded in that because we don't have a condition that requires it

2:00:32Uh to the chair, that's correct. We have no way of of um

2:00:37Ensuring that any discount is passed on to the end purchaser

2:00:41Thank you. And um your final slide again

2:00:44I applaud you for adding that because advocacy is certainly part of something we as a team along with staff and city council want to do

2:00:51Um, although it's not one of the recommendations, um, would it be helpful for council to be able to

2:00:57pass either this this today or at council, uh at the end of the month?

2:01:04a motion

2:01:06that

2:01:07We write a letter to the province asking for a legislative moratorium on on

2:01:12Planning changes and dc changes because we we want to let the dust settle and see how our building starts

2:01:19Pan out in the next 12 18 months if we have a period of legislative stability

2:01:25Would that be helpful to staff?

2:01:28Us I certainly don't think it could hurt. We do take the opportunity to um provide that

2:01:34Um recommendation whenever we respond to an ero

2:01:37When when draft legislation is um provided to comment on so

2:01:43I I think that would be fine. Thank you

2:01:46Great. Thank you. I know your ero responses on the info sheet seem to be

2:01:51More and more and more it's almost a you know five or six per info sheet

2:01:54You're you're responding to legislative changes. So I appreciate the staff time that goes into that

2:01:59So we have six recommendations on the floor unless anyone wants them separated

2:02:03I'll I'll call the vote on this item. Is there anyone opposed to the six recommendations on this item?

2:02:10I don't see anyone opposed so that is carried. Thanks again to you and your team

2:02:14Moving on to the next item. It's our property tax policy. It's that time of year. I think it's every march

2:02:19So this is a standard annual item. We do have a presentation from james krauters. So we'll uh

2:02:26open the

2:02:27podium for that presentation

2:02:30And I'll pass the floor over to staff

2:02:55Good morning

2:02:56Good morning. Thank you chair krump

2:02:59Uh, good morning everyone. I'm james krautter deputy treasurer manager of treasury and revenue for the city of guelph

2:03:07I'm here to talk about tax policy

2:03:09We do it on an annual basis

2:03:11And this is the purpose of the report is to

2:03:16We'll just wait for the

2:03:18I'm in charge here. Sorry

2:03:21purpose of the report

2:03:23Is to provide information and recommendations on tax ratios

2:03:28And rates this is a combination of decisions that have already been made by council

2:03:32From a perspective of overall tax policy at the last reassessment budget, etc

2:03:39um

2:03:40approvals required to

2:03:42Set in place the billing for the final tax bill

2:03:47First installment the end of june

2:03:50And it reflects the updated

2:03:532026 assessment by empac. So some key highlights

2:04:00Overall budget was just over

2:04:03383 million dollars

2:04:05And i'll refer to that sort of as the size of the pie later on in the presentation

2:04:10Uh hospital levy of three hundred and seventy five thousand will be collected as a small additional levy on every tax bill

2:04:19We have assessment growth of three hundred and thirty five million dollars in

2:04:242025 which resulted in just approximately

2:04:28four point seven million dollars in additional

2:04:31um taxation

2:04:33And while I mentioned that we're using 2026 assessment values from empac

2:04:39It's still based upon the provincial

2:04:432016 current value assessment and that's set through legislation

2:04:48As the reassessment remains on pause

2:04:55If we go back to september of last year, uh council approved the affordable rental housing subclass

2:05:02So that was a step that was made

2:05:04By council here and a handful of other municipalities across the province

2:05:09um

2:05:10The eligible criteria ensures that there has to be agreements for affordability with government entities

2:05:17empacs responsible for

2:05:19Defining those properties and putting them on the assessment rule. There were none that were on the assessment rule for

2:05:262026 empac is still in the process of gathering that information

2:05:31They've actually now created new tax codes for that development

2:05:36And in the fall of 2026, they will do

2:05:41Mid-year assessment notice changes. So if there's anything that's eligible with engulf, that will be the time that we know that

2:05:54So I talked about sort of the size of the pie that

2:05:56383 million dollars

2:05:59Um, well, this doesn't look like a circle. It provides you some clarity about how we slice that pie through tax policy

2:06:07So the black bars are what is included or the darker bars or what's included on the assessment rule

2:06:14So for instance, if we were to split that pie strictly by assessment

2:06:1874 of that pie would be split on the residential side

2:06:22multi residential 5 11

2:06:25On the commercial four in the industrial and the exempt portion would have 6 of that overall pie

2:06:31As we know the exempt portion

2:06:33Of the assessment doesn't pay any taxes and then with tax ratios

2:06:38everything shifts

2:06:40So the lighter slides then the lighter bars represent how we will be slicing the overall pie

2:06:54We talk about the residential sector and the median single family detached dwelling

2:07:00Is assessed at 411,000 in the city of guelph. That is up

2:07:06$1,000 from last year

2:07:08Just as new properties get built the and improved over the city that average while we're still looking at the 2016

2:07:17Sorry median that median value while we're still looking at the 2016

2:07:22CVA has been increasing slightly over time

2:07:26So when we look at the overall impact to the that median residential property

2:07:31We see a slight change

2:07:33$12 and 45 cents on an annual basis just related to assessment role impact

2:07:39The budget impact is

2:07:41392

2:07:43$5 and 7 cents that hospital levy that we talked about of the 375,000 that impact the resident median residential property

2:07:51Is $5 and 39 cents for an overall impact of

2:07:56$409 and 91 cents

2:07:59That's assuming the same tax ratios as utilized in

2:08:042025

2:08:08and similarly across all tax classes that

2:08:12increase would be the same

2:08:14For the budget impact and the hospital impact to total 7.7

2:08:197%

2:08:25The other thing that we need to be cognizant of is in 1998 the city of guelph council passed

2:08:33And adopted an optional tax class

2:08:36Of new multi-residential was one of the few municipalities in 98 that did that was progressive and it was done to

2:08:44Incent overall

2:08:46um the development of multi-residential dwellings

2:08:51Um, and at that time the ratio was set at one. So when we talk about ratios, that's the

2:08:57relative impact between the residential rate and then the individual class

2:09:03So the residential

2:09:05rate for residential and new multi-residential are the same in guelph and that has been since 1998

2:09:12For the new multi-residential sector

2:09:16um

2:09:17It puts that building into that class for 35 years

2:09:21So from the date that it enters to 35 years later

2:09:25It will jump out of new multi-residential and legislatively go to multi-residential

2:09:31So right now we have ratios of one for new multi-res

2:09:35And we have 1.786 for multi-res

2:09:39We need to be cognizant of what happens at that 35 year mark. So 98 35 years was a long time. I started in the municipal sector in 99

2:09:512033 was a long time away. We're approaching that very quickly

2:09:56So we need to be cognizant of what happens at that point in time

2:10:00We have one property that will flip in guelph in

2:10:052033

2:10:06We have three more properties that will flip between 2033 and 2037

2:10:13And then the majority of the properties are in that 2014 time frame. So if we do quick math, that's like 20

2:10:2348 time frame

2:10:25but something that we need to be cognizant of because that impact will be

2:10:30significant to those individual

2:10:32multi-residential units

2:10:34Probably about a thousand dollars per unit increase if nothing is done with the current tax ratios

2:10:41So what are our options? So our options are to

2:10:45start looking at

2:10:49Amalgamating those

2:10:52Ratios and bringing the multi-res down to the new multi-res ratio of one

2:10:58The other options are and which we're suggesting is we wait till the reassessment

2:11:04Whenever that occurs the provincial wide reassessment and look at tax shifts at that time and make a strategic plan from that perspective

2:11:12and we also continue to

2:11:15Lobby the provincial government for some changes in

2:11:20legislation to extend that new multi-residential tax class

2:11:26What would it look like though if we were to begin that sort of strategy of phasing in

2:11:32and reducing the multi-res

2:11:34Ratio now it would be additional increase to that residential property

2:11:40Of 14 dollars and 53 cents across the board for all

2:11:45current

2:11:48Residential properties

2:11:51That looks if you look at the bottom of the slide

2:11:54It increases that we talked about that 7.77 percent earlier without the reassessment or assessment rule impact

2:12:02It increases it to 8.05 percent

2:12:06Um for residential and new multi-residential, but it decreases the multi-residential change down to 2.83 percent

2:12:15So some math and changing of

2:12:20Overall impacts there

2:12:23So if we look at those two options option one

2:12:27Leave it status quo

2:12:29utilize the

2:12:31Rating ratios that we have for 2025

2:12:35We align a review with the new reassessment whenever that may occur

2:12:40We wait for provincial direction to potentially extend the new multi-residential tax class

2:12:46um

2:12:47Or we take an option approach where we start reducing the multi-residential ratio now

2:12:53um and that impact

2:12:56Over an eight year period

2:12:58For the first year is 14 dollars and 53 cents additional to the residential sector

2:13:03So you think of a tax policy as a balloon and when you take that balloon and you push it in one place

2:13:09It's going to expand other places. That's an easy way to talk about it

2:13:13So we're pushing in that multi-residential sector slightly

2:13:17It's going to increase the residential sector, which is the biggest tax class overall

2:13:21If we go back to that other slide, it's like close to 70 percent. So

2:13:26um proposed

2:13:30Tax ratios for 2026 with no changes from 2025 are in front of you here

2:13:38And if there's any other questions

2:13:41We're glad to take them

2:13:42Thanks, we'll open it to uh questions from members of council

2:13:47Anyone on screen with questions anyone in the horseshoe counselor galler questions

2:13:52Um, thank you and to you check around to staff. Thank you, uh, mr. Crowder for that presentation. It's very helpful

2:14:01um

2:14:02So that I can contextualize the

2:14:04The impact the presentation mentioned that if we were to reduce the multi-residential

2:14:10rate from 1.78 to 1.7

2:14:13Uh, it would have an impact of about 14 dollars to multi-residential

2:14:18What what i'm not clear on is the the volume of multi-residential versus

2:14:22um

2:14:23low density residential would it be a proportional increase to

2:14:29to the number of of

2:14:31um single family and duplex homes that are

2:14:34Uh, or would it, you know be diluted more? So what proportion of the city is multi-residential versus low densities?

2:14:44residential

2:14:59Through the chair to councillor Goller

2:15:02So very good question from an overall numbers perspective

2:15:06If we look at page five of nine on the report

2:15:11We have approximately

2:15:13Just under 29 000 single family homes within the city

2:15:20Uh 11 000 just over 11 000 residential condos

2:15:25Um, and we sit with 184

2:15:29apartment buildings

2:15:31I don't know the number of units currently in those 184 apartment buildings, but that gives you sort of the context from that side

2:15:40um overall

2:15:44so

2:15:45so it

2:15:47By looking at these numbers, it wouldn't be that that 14 dollars would be transferred directly. It would be

2:15:53Would it be diluted or concentrated what i'm not understanding is when I see the the property said 11 000 123 for

2:15:59residential condominium units is that the number of individual apartments within that?

2:16:07No, the 11 123

2:16:10Residential condominium units are actually condominiums versus apartments. So single ownership

2:16:17Units within a condominium complex

2:16:20Okay, okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that. I appreciate that and I I understand the recommendation

2:16:26And I I think it makes sense to wait for the province to to give some direction on how to proceed with this. Thank you

2:16:34Any further questions?

2:16:36I oh, we haven't had the recommendations put on the floor of councillor goller and a seconder councillor richardson. Thanks

2:16:42Uh quick question. Um, you mentioned the 35 reduction for affordable housing that we put into our affordable housing policy

2:16:48And I of course I fully support that that direction of council and hope that it's making a difference

2:16:54My question is that under the residential tenancies act the rta requires a landlord to reduce the rent

2:17:03If it exceeds a 2.49 or 2.5

2:17:09Reduction in their taxes. How do we monitor that?

2:17:14So on an annual basis the city looks at

2:17:18The changes in property taxes for multi residential properties if there is a reduction of 2.49

2:17:26Then legislatively the city is required to do two things one notify the landlord initially

2:17:32That that has occurred and then subsequently notify all of the unit

2:17:38That that has occurred and that there may be an appropriate reduction coming in the rent

2:17:45Okay, and then if the landlord does not reduce the rent accordingly

2:17:49It's really up to a tenant to take it to the the ltb. Is that uh up to the up to the tenant to do?

2:17:57Correct. Okay. The motions on the floor then given no other questions. I'll call the vote. Is there anyone opposed to the two motions?

2:18:07Seeing none that motion is carried

2:18:10Thanks so much. I'll look to uh dcao o brian. Uh, are there any service area announcements?

2:18:17To you chair know there isn't and I don't know if miss baker has any

2:18:20Okay, great seeing none

2:18:22Uh, we'll conclude this portion of committee of the whole and I'll pass the chair over to councillor

2:18:27Downer, okay, we'll be doing the public services part of the agenda now

2:19:20And we have one item on the uh the consent agenda

2:19:25And I believe there's a presentation by dana evidence, right regarding the uh,

2:19:30The facilities and allocation process

2:19:34Uh, councillor downer. We have a service profile for you presentation. Okay. Okay. Oh, right. Okay. I see that just before this, right? Okay, great

2:19:42That's good

2:19:43Good. Uh, good morning, uh

2:19:46To council and staff and certainly community as well

2:19:49My name is dana evans and I am the general manager of culture and recreation and we're here to uh, share just a few tips

2:19:57And information about the department as a whole

2:20:03Culture and recreation is growing and caring for community places and spaces by actively providing a diverse range of enriching cultural recreation

2:20:12and heritage programs services and events

2:20:15We provide opportunities for participation in order to attract more people to our facilities while enriching the lives of community and promoting healthy living

2:20:26Culture and recreation welcomes community across 10 main facilities divided among the four divisions seen here museums and culture

2:20:34Sleam and center river and center and our recreation services

2:20:38Managers leading this work are in council chambers live today along with our

2:20:43In administration and support staff and so I would ask them to wave

2:20:47Uh beyond a few team members and other team members that are here today

2:20:51We are 90 full-time staff

2:20:54Over 640 part-time staff or casual staff and over 500 active volunteers

2:21:01We are committed to public service and culture and recreation

2:21:05And this is shown through our over 40 or 45 of the department's full-time staff having worked with the city for over 10 years

2:21:15Our commitment and

2:21:17Service to community is primarily linked to city building of the city's strategic plan

2:21:22Where we are aiding in the growing and caring for community places and spaces

2:21:27Our everyday operations and programming offers and attracts people to our facilities

2:21:32So we can aim to make them easier to access and enjoy

2:21:37Culture and recreation ensures public spaces are available to everyone through our programs services and events

2:21:44Beyond these programs and events. We support rentals in our through our regular facility operations event logistics

2:21:51technical supports audience services and our food and beverage departments

2:21:55We continue to respond to community need and adjust programs and events to fill gaps in the community

2:22:03While still offering stability in our regular programming

2:22:06We develop new programs and partnerships on a regular basis to attract more people into our facilities and places

2:22:13For us these participation numbers shown here totaling over 300,000

2:22:20Participations and our facilities is impressive and yet it still does not quite tell the whole full story

2:22:27These indicators do not include people that are attending our facilities through rental events

2:22:32at the museum recreation or Sleeman Center as examples

2:22:38Continuing through into 2026 there are main projects that will continue to support the strategic plan and growth of our city

2:22:45As we build the south end community center to open this fall

2:22:49We are creating a community hub with a strong focus on placemaking and programming at this new facility

2:22:55We will connect strongly with the outdoors create social spaces drop-in areas and more

2:23:01The parks and rec master plan and our culture plan are the strong guiding documents that advance culture and recreation needs

2:23:08and desires for all in gulf

2:23:11Planning is underway for gulf's 200 bicentennial to celebrate reflect commemorate of the past 200 years and beyond of history

2:23:22Our core service objectives include managing operations across this expansive list of culture and recreation facilities

2:23:31Our facilities are run by qualified staff each experienced in their field providing excellent programs events and customer service

2:23:39Making us part of the reason why gulf is an employer of choice

2:23:43Our core services are also supported in the caos objectives by developing operational performance

2:23:50optimizing

2:23:52Programming at the Sleeman Center's operating review and at the heart of our city programming a community offerings

2:23:58We are also maintaining relationship

2:24:00partnerships and reimagining our facility allocation

2:24:04Our core service is also to design deliver these cultural and recreation programs

2:24:11This includes river rent center presenting performances in school programming

2:24:16museum creating exhibits special events and school programming

2:24:19recreation designing and delivering programs in the area of swimming art fitness sport and more

2:24:26and for all ages among our community and

2:24:29Sleeman Center will begin partnering on events and programming

2:24:33uh concerts

2:24:36Beyond our programs

2:24:38We also lead events in the community and we support community special event planning and other placemaking

2:24:44Through public art collection. We are playing an important role in building a vibrant communities and contributing to our cultural identity

2:24:52Our civic events are bringing community together through events like cinema in the city

2:24:56national indiges peoples day and activations at market square

2:25:00Our booking team books parks and spaces as well as our indoor facilities and offers support for community special events on city property

2:25:10This includes supporting all events from weekly outdoor sporting rentals through major tournaments and multi-day festivals

2:25:17And all the while we are still ensuring excellent customer service and good service standards

2:25:24For all the things we do

2:25:26We still all do more

2:25:29We offer breakfasts and lunch. We sell takeout meals at evergreen senior center bistro

2:25:35683 five days a week we liaise on with the

2:25:38Elliott community and long-term care and we offer inclusion support services and programs

2:25:44and some more

2:25:46While we are uh, while we are inspired on a daily basis

2:25:50There are still challenges along the way and we do find inspiration on our creative side for innovation and new programs and opportunities

2:25:57We rely heavily on our over 640 part-time staff to support operation of facilities

2:26:03Up to 16 hours a day seven days a week in most cases

2:26:07I'm proud to give a shout out to these amazing dedicated staff who lead programs sell tickets deliver food clean facilities and more

2:26:15We continue to also see the pressures of prime time rental hours and facilities

2:26:21If you could help us find a way to have more early evening hours of ice time

2:26:25An additional friday and saturday nights in a week for theater events. We would be grateful

2:26:30There are opportunities to grow and expand with city innovation and funding from other sources

2:26:36And we continue to align and support to sports tourism development and wealth

2:26:40Offering events that draw visitors as well as benefit our local community

2:26:47As we move into some budget highlights

2:26:50For the department, I'd like to share that almost 35 of our revenue is earned from user fees and service charges

2:26:57This includes rental rates tickets registration and admissions

2:27:01product sales continue to grow of primarily from revenue from food and beverage and the remaining

2:27:08Revenue is for staff charge backs equipment rentals grants and sponsorships

2:27:14Although we generate over 11 million in revenue

2:27:17The budget is still supported by the property tax base at just over 50 of the overall department budget

2:27:24With revenue does come some expenses to offer programs events and maintain our facilities

2:27:30Our main expense is for staff wages and benefits. This covers the 90 full-time staff and the almost 650 active part-time staff

2:27:39While other expenses do include our artist fees event fees marketing and production repairs and maintenance and utilities

2:27:47The work to mitigate expense lines and balance rates thresholds for users is an ongoing project

2:27:54In recent years, we have seen budget pressure with increasing costs for food and pool chemicals as example

2:28:01But plus the increased need for repairs and maintenance in our aging facilities

2:28:07Culture and recreation budget does also include or capital budget

2:28:11Shall I say it does also include our facility renewal for updates for building infrastructure major equipment that has come to the end of its life

2:28:19I wanted to a flag a spike in the 2029 budget forecast that is shown on the screen

2:28:25Here in chambers that is a result of a facility renewal projects being adjusted forward to support ongoing budget pressures

2:28:33Condition assessments are being completed now to help plan and adjust future budgets to even out the spike

2:28:41Beyond facility upgrades and renovations. This budget also supports programming

2:28:45specific capital needs like updates to technical theater equipment at river end center and new sport and recreation equipment

2:28:52Along with repairs to filters pumps ice plants and general pool functioning

2:28:58new capital

2:29:00Equipment includes advancement in technology to offer efficiencies and service while still delivering exceptional products

2:29:08Culture and recreation connects with the community through individual websites and portals

2:29:13And there's a lot of information on our programs services events rentals buying tickets how to volunteer

2:29:19Or even how to work with us across all of these contact points

2:29:23Through though all of our facilities are still linked from gulf.ca

2:29:28Thank you for the opportunity to share the vast amount of work of the culture and rec

2:29:33Programs services and events across all of our places and spaces

2:29:37We are hope that we will see you and the community very soon. Thank you

2:29:44Thank you, mr. Evans. That was very good

2:29:46It was a great backgrounder for the discussions that are coming up in the next two items after this

2:29:52Are there any questions for staff?

2:29:56On the presentation

2:30:00Okay, seeing none. Thank you

2:30:03Um, there is no motion for that item. Uh, so we'll move on to the consent agenda

2:30:10where we are going to further talk about

2:30:13About public services and their recreation facilities

2:30:17So there is no presentation on this one, but uh, miss Evans. Did you have any comments you wanted to make before we go into it?

2:30:28Uh chair dana. Yes. Thank you. Um, I would just take a moment

2:30:32To say good afternoon again, and uh, I guess for anybody just jumping in remind you that i'm still dana

2:30:38The general manager of culture and recreation. Um, we're here to um speak to the Sleeman centers operating model

2:30:44Sleeman center is positioned to be an anchor sports and entertainment facility of the downtown by offering events year round

2:30:51Working with promoters and presenting arts and entertainment season

2:30:55Our researchers showed opportunities for new programming and events to increase access exposure and entertainment usage to the Sleeman center

2:31:03We've heard great things about opportunities for music and country

2:31:07alternative rock sports tourism film and television and even virtual and gaming shows and competitions

2:31:15By booking our own events creating partnerships and building relationships with commercial and community partners

2:31:21Sleeman center can grow and decrease dependency on the tax base

2:31:25With experience in programming

2:31:28Shows and events across the department. We can book artists and choose events

2:31:32But also have the having the knowledge to understand the potential risks associated with increased size

2:31:38Scale and scope of the Sleeman center

2:31:41Timing for this change does align to the opening of the south end community center later this fall

2:31:47Creating more ice time across these two new ice pads

2:31:50Currently Sleeman center books season long contracts with community users from september to march

2:31:57Essentially locking us in to ice time over a six five or six month period

2:32:01We are not removing rental opportunities for sports groups. The proposed change looks to reduce how far in advance groups can book

2:32:09This would normally just limit the timing of seasonal long contracts

2:32:14Consistently weekly games and practices could be best fitted in other arenas with no risk of signal or sorry schedule changes

2:32:22For other events at the Sleeman center. There is greater flexibility for organization on other types of uses

2:32:28We want organizations to continue to book ice time for camps training and practices

2:32:34We hope groups will continue to book for larger events such as tournaments and championships and these can be booked farther in advance

2:32:41Regular changes are very disruptive to users, especially across the youth sports organizations

2:32:47We acknowledge the changes can be less disruptive to an all adult league play and we'll continue this programming as well

2:32:54We are aligned to the timing of the recreation facility allocation process update

2:32:58One of these items is to in the implement

2:33:02Implementation strategy of this report speaks to optimizing our scheduling

2:33:07Along with updates on how much time is changed or canceled and the standardization of blocks of times

2:33:13We can increase overall availability

2:33:15Small adjustments can utilize or eliminate unused blocks in the middle of an evening expanding our prime time ice usage

2:33:23Next we will engage with community groups to optimize these prime time hours and align

2:33:29Timing and fit for all facilities

2:33:32Both initiatives will increase available time across the whole system reducing the impact of changes at Sleeman center

2:33:39Though currently on average there is 30 hours a week of youth ice time booked at the Sleeman center when there isn't storm games or practices

2:33:46Or other events happening

2:33:48After the city schedule programming, we've identified there will be just over 130 additional prime time ice hours at the south end community center's double ice pad

2:33:58We have heard there is a greater need for more ice time and wealth

2:34:02The needs assessment accompanying the development of the south end community center calls for one more additional ice pad by

2:34:092033 so based on the current usage and predictive targets of per capita numbers

2:34:15This accounts for the current five recreation rinks and the two more rinks that will come along online this fall at the south end

2:34:22And then calls for an eighth ice pad

2:34:25These needs assessments did not take into account any ice at the Sleeman center nor the two pads at the university of wealth

2:34:33Once the south end community center opens and we settle in we will engage with community on

2:34:38Arenas usage reviewing availability standalone arenas and time at the university of wealth

2:34:44It is anticipated that upgrades or renovations to centennial and exhibition arenas may be

2:34:50Recommended and these optimizations along with ice time at the university could carry us beyond the 2033 target

2:34:58We do not have data at the moment or funding

2:35:01In the forecast we can't speak to the current participation numbers of the growth or projections of any one organization

2:35:08And we aren't involved in how they manage their current ice time

2:35:13This year we will do some further work at Sleeman center including creating an event plan

2:35:19Developing marketing strategy and designing allocation and booking timelines

2:35:24We also will be expanding the budget

2:35:26With expensive for artist fees production and marketing does come new costs

2:35:31But with this new programming and larger scale events does also come revenue an updated budget will be submitted

2:35:38With the 2027 confirmation budget later this year into early 27

2:35:43Sleeman center has relied on a tax supported funding of up to 1.6 million annually

2:35:50New changes and updates to the budget and event planning will not

2:35:53Exceed this tax support and in fact in the coming years. We are committed to reducing the tax need or the burden

2:36:01The motions before you are to request to allow staff to negotiate rates and fees or events at Sleeman center

2:36:07Where we can hope to recover a greater profit from a successful event

2:36:12We've proposed a strategy to increase the capital reserve fund to up to three dollars a ticket to support facility

2:36:19infrastructure enhance customer experiences and create revenue generating opportunities

2:36:25And the motion proposed is also to remove the youth facility discount on rentals at Sleeman center and only Sleeman center

2:36:33This reduction or a discount on rent currently at

2:36:3742 and a half percent will continue to be offered at other recreation and park facilities

2:36:43Youth groups that book tournaments or training at Sleeman center would then still be charged the full amount or the normal rental amount

2:36:51We will ensure that organizations have time to plan and budget for these special events

2:36:56I am joined and would ask

2:36:59Sleeman manager, uh, ryan giles, um to join me if there's any further questions and conversation

2:37:05Thank you

2:37:06Thank you. Ms. Evans. Can we go back first to the the recommendation from the

2:37:13For the recreation facilities allocation process update

2:37:18And and you've given one a presentation that sort of covers both of these but we hadn't voted on that one first

2:37:23So are there any questions on the first?

2:37:27report on that first report

2:37:30Council coran. Yeah for item 15.1. Yes. Yeah, okay. Um, thank you and thank you as

2:37:36Chair downer said the

2:37:39Presentation really encompass both of these correlated items. So I'm glad to have the whole context in answering my questions

2:37:47Regarding specifically 15.1

2:37:50So one of the things that we've been hearing from the community in the last couple of days is

2:37:55Just allocation of time

2:37:58And that many of them are going outside of the city to be able to get ice time

2:38:03That um, and I recognize that actually in your report, you said there's a perception of exclusion from certain sports and

2:38:12Preference for one sport over the other in the allocation

2:38:14So I do recognize that one of the purposes the goals behind this new policy is

2:38:21greater predictability

2:38:23greater equity

2:38:25And greater efficiency in how

2:38:27Facility allocation is done

2:38:30So my question has to do with with the engagement piece because

2:38:34This recommendation is just to go out and do that engagement. Is this can you just give an overview of?

2:38:41For those who are watching because I know there's a lot of interest in the community in how that engagement

2:38:45What is going to look like when it's going to happen? What are the timelines?

2:38:50and

2:38:51Everything that you said in your presentation is predicated on the opening of the south end

2:38:55community center

2:38:57How that engagement is going to align with the opening of that facility and and and the allocation of

2:39:03ice time specifically in those twin pads

2:39:07Through the chair to cancer crown. I feel like we're mushing these reports a little bit

2:39:12I will we can answer as the system as a whole for sure

2:39:16I would ask

2:39:18Miss pizziola to come down and join us. She may have a little bit more. We have done a robust

2:39:23Engagement with our community users as it relates to facility allocation. We worked

2:39:30We worked with a consultant a point of privilege

2:39:35We don't tolerate inappropriate behavior within the chambers

2:39:38So what I would ask that anybody here be respectful of staff

2:39:42And anybody speaking just as you would expect that if you were up at the podium speaking

2:39:50Thank you back through the chair counselor cron

2:39:53There has been engagement with community users not with the community as a whole

2:39:57around

2:39:59That piece around where they would like to see what they think might be fair

2:40:04And patty's learning sort of specific more questions that you could answer

2:40:11Who yeah, maybe a couple examples of who we engaged with on the facility allocation report would be helpful

2:40:17Thank you

2:40:20We did

2:40:21consult

2:40:22Through a survey link in the fall. We also conducted we had worked with our consultants and we conducted a number of interviews

2:40:32specifically with

2:40:33existing user groups as well as

2:40:36Potential user groups and we did some engagement through the have your say

2:40:44Okay, so moving forward then I know that we have we have user groups and we have

2:40:50Associations like the gulf youth sports

2:40:53Like a larger organization that represents all the different

2:40:57Associations from soccer to hockey the gymnastics all the different groups

2:41:00so

2:41:02When you say user groups

2:41:03It's every single facility every single user group was sent an invitation or was it through their through their representative association?

2:41:11Through the chair we worked with our main contacts and tried to address

2:41:17representatives of boards so of our current users

2:41:20And then a general survey so there was some one-on-one sort of more in-depth conversations with direct with a consultant

2:41:27So folks wouldn't feel like they needed to not say or do say something

2:41:31So we're looking for that open response

2:41:33And then some general surveys that then the organization who utilizes our program and so they were asked questions as well

2:41:40About how easy is it is it cumbersome? What's involved in returning time?

2:41:44And so we were really looking at the

2:41:47The administrative side

2:41:49From an allocation point of view not how folks are using our facilities

2:41:54Okay, thanks

2:41:56And as a council we're always looking for when we change a policy or a practice we're looking for a measurable outcome

2:42:04If our goals are predictability equity and efficiency, how will we measure that when we have the new facility?

2:42:13Allocation policy in place

2:42:15Uh through the council unless there's anything to add I'll start

2:42:19definitely looking

2:42:21At facility optimization and we'll be able to report about how much sort of new time that we found not just in the growth of

2:42:29The development of the south end community center, which we're looking at certainly from an ice prime time

2:42:34We know it's going to be over 130 more hours a week into the system

2:42:38But where is their optimization?

2:42:40So we have prime time hours now and is there adjustments that can be made into more consistent blocks of time?

2:42:47So we don't what we call burn or lose

2:42:50A half hour in the middle

2:42:52And can groups move to facilities that then next give them a better fit

2:42:57To open up fit otherwise there are some

2:43:00Organizations who now are spread thin on either coaches administration or even referees in the ice world

2:43:07Because they're working out of two facilities

2:43:08So can they come to a double ice pad and now find those efficiencies for themselves and thus giving more opportunity for their youth in this example?

2:43:17But there's definitely other sort of pieces related to that

2:43:20We haven't defined all of those pieces yet and we will certainly continue those conversations with our user groups as well

2:43:30One last question and it's kind of a future forward. There are always emerging

2:43:35Sports recreation

2:43:38organizations

2:43:39You know over the last 10 years we've seen higher increased

2:43:44Requests for everything from pickleball to cricket. Are there any other emerging?

2:43:49Sports not just youth but adult as well that

2:43:53Council should be aware of as we move forward in our

2:43:56change in facility allocation

2:44:00Uh through the chair, I would imagine that there is lots of amazing sports if we google new sport

2:44:07There's definitely

2:44:09mash-ups

2:44:10Happening between soccer and ping pong taking place on a larger court. I forgot the name at the moment

2:44:16And then certainly more locally. We're seeing some greater uptake

2:44:20In different accessibility sports some interest of wheelchair basketball in our community as well as sledge hockey

2:44:27the

2:44:28South End community center has some different features to support sledge hockey with some plexi

2:44:35Boards so that you can still stay in your sledge and be able to see when you're in your team bench for instance

2:44:41Thanks

2:44:44Thank you

2:44:47Thank you. I just wanted to kind of add to what councillor Caron has talked about around the community engagement

2:44:54um, I volunteer with the poverty group and I I

2:44:58participated in the survey on behalf of that west end ward 4 kind of community group and just

2:45:04Really want to thank the staff because it's a one-time booking for a free skate with santa that has a huge

2:45:11Impact for the kids that don't get to see santa. Don't know how to skate

2:45:15We've got donated skates and so on and just want to thank the staff for extending the survey and really working with the

2:45:22group

2:45:23The group to make an impact for these kids

2:45:26And so one is for the engagement. Thank you for that

2:45:29But also to stress from my perspective more of an arts music kind of cultural that this is more than sports

2:45:36And and I appreciate this report because it creates that space for other not skating on ice

2:45:43You know ice capades in my old days kind of thing but but that opportunity for that to happen

2:45:49So I really want to just say thank you for that and I really appreciate all this work

2:45:55Thank you. Are there any other questions on 15.1?

2:45:59Good to put somebody put the motion on the floor councillor lucid tails sector by councillor Goller

2:46:05Is there anyone opposed to that motion?

2:46:08And that's the recreational

2:46:10recreation facilities allocation process be approved

2:46:14Okay, that passes. Thank you

2:46:16Okay, we're going to go on to the next that next item that we've had the presentation that covered both of these now

2:46:23And it was the Sleeman center operating model

2:46:27and

2:46:28That's so I think we so do we have any more questions of

2:46:33Staff for that so councillor

2:46:40Yes, thank you through you chair

2:46:43Downer to staff

2:46:45Thanks for the presentation. I I really like where the report is going

2:46:49I I like the idea of the goal to increase revenue by 1.8 million and to create

2:46:56a new

2:46:57and that neutral

2:46:59operating model with the Sleeman center

2:47:02I I have I have some questions around the transition

2:47:07And this is this is to do with some of the

2:47:11Correspondence that we have received

2:47:14so my first question is around

2:47:17Um the transition year of 2026 2027 from my perspective right now

2:47:22I'm not entirely sure when the south end rec center is is going to open

2:47:28um and given that the um the contracts for recreational and youth ice

2:47:35Time are from september until

2:47:38March and that is typically how organizations plan their their their schedules for the year

2:47:45I'm curious if there is some thought in place around how we're going to transition those groups that

2:47:53potentially could see with this transition from the Sleeman center over into

2:47:58The new facility, which I I appreciate we're seeing a net increase of 130 hours a week in the system

2:48:05But I'm curious about that transition time and what the potential

2:48:09loss could be in the 2026 2027 season

2:48:14Through the chair to the counselor

2:48:16If I'm undersharing correctly, there would be no loss to current ice standards

2:48:22The facility allocation process that's just been approved

2:48:25Certainly also includes a sort of priority of how we take in bookings and events

2:48:31For one time we will slide in a little asterisk ahead of everything else that ensures that

2:48:38The current users at the south end community center will be maintained at those ice times

2:48:43We know now in our system that sometimes there's some movement year over year

2:48:47And organizations look for efficiencies

2:48:49So an organization may want to go from the single ice pad and move to south end or to west end to be able to run programming

2:48:57Both at the same time across both rinks

2:49:00So they won't lose anymore the facility allocation process as I now I'm entangling both of them together

2:49:07also

2:49:09Definitely will look to organizations for an expression of interest

2:49:14Where they might see growth and opportunity and what more they are looking for and as well as how they continue to serve community and

2:49:22address some equity and maybe potential barriers that exist

2:49:26So through the chair if I can also just jump in here and and just help to provide that reassurance

2:49:31The south end opens September 1st of this year. So 2026 that is the date that we are aiming for for opening

2:49:38So the reason the report before you and I know the two kind of have gotten mucked together

2:49:41But there's a reason why they're here before you this month

2:49:44We need to start allocating the new all the new ice time at the south end

2:49:49And we need to do that in time to get everybody moved there

2:49:53So nobody as as miss evans has said

2:49:55Nobody will lose ice time all of the ice time that will be

2:49:59Shuffled out of sleam and center to accommodate this new business model will be accommodated within the system

2:50:04And in fact, we're growing our ice time

2:50:05But the timing of this report is very very key for us because we need to get those forms out to our user groups

2:50:12So we can make sure we're allocating everybody

2:50:15And also using the allocation policy figure out who's going to get the extra ice time because we're adding ice time into the system

2:50:21So it really is two parts moving the the the hours out of the sleam and center for those long bookings

2:50:28And accommodating them

2:50:30Figuring out who is going to get the additional ice time using the allocation policy

2:50:34And do all of that timely enough so that we can let groups know where they're going to be for September 1st

2:50:40When the south end opens and all of our rinks have ice in so in short nobody's losing ice time

2:50:46We will accommodate all of the existing ice users, but we need to do that

2:50:51We need that approval this month so that we don't leave groups hanging until august and not know where they're going

2:50:57So if we can get this approval this month, then we will be on track to do our normal ice allocation policy

2:51:05And I think to councillor boost till's point all of the other spaces that this covers because this this isn't just simply about ice

2:51:13Thank you. I really appreciate both of those

2:51:16explanations

2:51:18I think that makes a lot of sense and

2:51:20hearing that the

2:51:22south end rec center is going to be opening on september 1st is exciting and

2:51:27And hearing how that course that complements this this plan. I think makes a lot of sense

2:51:35I think that there's a lot of benefit to the public to see to seeing the

2:51:41The sleam and center used more robustly in in sports and in in entertainment

2:51:47It is the I think it's the sports and entertainment center. So

2:51:51I I am really excited about this and I I also want to just recognize that building this capacity takes time

2:51:57I the report really clarifies that

2:52:01So building that that institutional capacity to both build build the infrastructure to support new new types of events, but then also to

2:52:10Get the get the

2:52:13The programming will also take time. So maybe actually my question could you elaborate a little bit on that?

2:52:18Could you talk about the timing and when we hope to see that goal of of increasing revenue by 1.8 million when we might hope to see that?

2:52:29Through the chair to the councillor

2:52:32That's certainly a bigger part of our work as we present a budget

2:52:36adjustment for the 2027

2:52:38budget

2:52:39We hope to present a few opportunities later this fall in that revenue neutral environment

2:52:47But there definitely is a transition involved because we haven't been as flexible or open

2:52:53Mr. Giles

2:52:55Has certainly turned down some opportunities in the last sort of six or eight months because we've had existing

2:53:01Contracts in place. So we'll certainly go back to them and say hey, we've got some time available

2:53:06And and find out where that is a new cheerleading event

2:53:11opportunity for a film and a large sort of sports

2:53:15trade show sale

2:53:16environment just as a couple of examples of the diversity

2:53:20of events or or space larger space that folks are looking for where the Sleeman Center

2:53:25Both with the large floor space and then additional seating can accommodate these events

2:53:33Thank you

2:53:35Okay, good councillor gore and then councillor kate

2:53:38Thank you and three chair downer to staff

2:53:42Thank you so much for the for the clear report. I really appreciate and I really appreciate the direction that this is going

2:53:48I did want to follow up

2:53:50something that you said miss evans is that

2:53:53Youth groups would still be able to book the event that would just pay the the full fee. Is that is that correct?

2:54:00And through the councillor to councillor Goller. Yes, we are proposing that the subsidy rate would not apply

2:54:07So then any rent would not be given the 40 for youth groups would not receive currently

2:54:12They receive the 42 and a half percent discount if the hourly rental rate is in the 300 dollar range

2:54:18They receive that discount where even if they're doing tournaments and

2:54:22Championships, they would not receive that it would pay the full rate

2:54:26We believe that we're offering more of an experience and a premier facility

2:54:32Where we shouldn't then be applying the youth

2:54:34Discount where groups then still have access to the subsidy at other recreation facilities

2:54:40Okay, okay. I I understand the logic and I appreciate that

2:54:43Could you help me understand? What is the impact of of that subsidy?

2:54:48I mean if if say all of the youth groups that currently booked the space this year still say well

2:54:56You know, we still want to have this this premium experience is this larger

2:55:00Space what would be the the impact to you know to us or to them so that I understand how much more

2:55:07We would be asking or we would be getting from those groups

2:55:12Uh through the chair to the councillor

2:55:14Really the difference on the 42 and a half percent but currently to give you some perspective all of our

2:55:21ice rentals so specifically to ice is about 300 000 right now

2:55:26So the difference on the discount doesn't come from another source. It is just purely waived

2:55:32So not all of our ice rentals are youth

2:55:35But on the high high extreme if it's 50 percent dollars there might be another 150 000

2:55:42In revenue that assumes the current

2:55:46About 30 hours a week of youth time that exists

2:55:50So I would say that's a bit inflated but from a reference point of view for for Sleiman on a on a

2:55:58Revenue of 2.4 million. This is the small portion for us. So it is easily or more available mitigated in

2:56:06Other events and programming. Okay. Okay. Thank you for all please through the chair. I just also wanted to um

2:56:12Remind council that this is consistent with what we do at riverrun center. We don't offer the youth discount at riverrun center as well

2:56:19It is about that premier facilities and making sure that we're utilizing them

2:56:24For the best the best purpose

2:56:27So we want to make sure we're accommodating those groups and finding

2:56:31The ice time for them in all of our other facilities at that discounted rate

2:56:35And so I just wanted to keep reiterating that because we've had some feedback that there's a concern that this is

2:56:40impacting groups

2:56:42They will be able to transfer and take that youth discount with them to the other facilities

2:56:47Okay, thank you. Thank you very much for that and something else that that was said in the presentation

2:56:52um, you mentioned not having disruptions to groups so so that I understand if a youth

2:56:59You know learned to skate or or a

2:57:03League books in ice time, but then there's a big event like you know

2:57:07A circus comes to town and they needed for for the week. Would we then cancel cancel the reservations for those?

2:57:14um

2:57:15Leagues in preference for the big events that come

2:57:19Uh through the chair to the counselor. Um, currently we are doing some of that now and making every effort to move

2:57:27organizations to other places

2:57:30Except the demand um, it's certainly on ice timeless on summer floor time

2:57:35Is that there's nowhere else to move folks? We recognize with youth, um ice sport

2:57:41Specifically that they get you you still have a consistent time

2:57:46My granddaughter plays uh every saturday at three and practices every tuesday at five

2:57:52And so that reliance is much more heavy on youth and the expectation we have to youth

2:57:58We feel adults are a little more flexible and can understand what is happening

2:58:03And so continuing with some of those adult programming

2:58:06Will move or push out. Um, but also then in youth sport is tied to competition and

2:58:13Championship schedules so you can't just push out inevitably as well

2:58:17But we also recognize that when there's nowhere to move folks we may have to turn down

2:58:22The large circus event

2:58:24For instance because we're locked into those longer term contracts

2:58:28Okay, so so so that I understand you only push people out if you can find a replacement

2:58:34But you do not say sorry folks this week. There's no ice time because we have another event

2:58:39Uh through the chair. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah

2:58:42Okay, okay

2:58:45And if if I understand if council were to

2:58:48To to support recommendations uh here

2:58:53one and two

2:58:55But if we were to not support recommendation number three the impact

2:59:01Would be about 150 000 dollars in terms of revenue to the city is that ballpark

2:59:08Go ahead

2:59:09So through the chair, I think we can come back to you and try to quantify that before the end of the month

2:59:15And so if it was simply about the differential on the youth discount

2:59:19We can come to you with a firm number because I think miss evans is trying to calculate that on the fly

2:59:23So in fairness, we'll come back to you. Um, but I do still want to emphasize that that the relocation of the groups to the other

2:59:31locations is really what is the important

2:59:34What is the important piece and so

2:59:38It it's almost like one doesn't happen without the other because we are looking to relocate those groups out and take their youth facility

2:59:44Discount somewhere else and apply it. So it's going to be difficult math for us to do

2:59:49Unless you're asking us to assume nobody is being moved out of the Sleeman center and is retaining all of their current rental subsidy

2:59:56What what I would ask is

2:59:59Could we change the booking policy so that if a big event comes the

3:00:04I stand for that week has canceled

3:00:07And we don't have to find them a replacement

3:00:09Which you know given, um, you know in a six month period we might have maybe three or four events

3:00:16Which means that most of the time those sports leagues or groups can still use the ice on a week to week basis

3:00:23And it could be that

3:00:25A few practices have to be missed and and maybe that's just a risk of booking

3:00:29At the Sleeman center versus booking in the south end where you know that you're not going to be cancelled. Is that possible?

3:00:36So we certainly through the chair

3:00:38We certainly would not recommend that the time to accommodate the groups is now when we have available ice time at the south end

3:00:44So the time to move the groups and make sure we get guaranteed ice for those groups within our system

3:00:50Is is now we will still continue to take one-off bookings and we will still continue to look for

3:00:57Opportunities to do those special events

3:00:59But no we are recommending that we not take those long term

3:01:04September to March bookings at Sleeman center

3:01:06Because it's very very difficult both for for miss evans and mr. Giles to be out

3:01:11Trying to attract

3:01:12film shoots and large-scale events and concerts if every time they get an inquiry they then have to go and try to bump

3:01:20Groups to another arena where we may no longer have ice available

3:01:24If we do it now before we allocate for the whole season

3:01:28We can make sure we're getting those groups the ice time

3:01:31So we we certainly would not recommend that that would be an approach that we beneficial either to the user groups

3:01:37Or to our staff's ability to try to sell the Sleeman center to larger events

3:01:42We think that the best thing to do is to accommodate those long terms

3:01:45September to March bookings within our existing ice time now when we're bringing this out then online

3:01:51And so we certainly wouldn't recommend that you change that policy because I think it would be difficult both for us

3:01:57And it would be very hard on those groups because a lot of times they'd end up getting bumped and we'd have nowhere to put them

3:02:02If I could I understand that the subsidies been removed, but they could still book in September to March

3:02:09They would just have to pay the full fee

3:02:12Through the chair to the counselor part of this operating model changes that currently we wouldn't book those longer

3:02:19Sessions that far in advance

3:02:21So right now we issue dates and availability to organizations in may time frame and we get back to them with final

3:02:29Contracts sort of middle of June beginning of July for September to March

3:02:34So if somebody wanted to book today at the arena, they would we would have signed a contract with them last July

3:02:41Thus blocking us in or locking us in

3:02:43Where we're suggesting is we will change the timeline on some of those bookings for our sort of our

3:02:49Individual practices or even for games on rentals so that we would sign those contracts in

3:02:55January or even December for March the third so still opportunities

3:03:00I recognize that there is also then tournaments or larger championships

3:03:04Which would be really fun to play at Sleeman Center with potential more people

3:03:08Those require

3:03:10timelines and bookings that need to go farther out and those are weekend bookings not just one-off hours

3:03:16And so we can do those on longer contracts because they help both the community and the Sleeman Center

3:03:25through your chair, um, I think

3:03:27My question is could we

3:03:30Adjust the policy so that the leagues can still book

3:03:34With the discount, but then they get bumped and actually there's no replacement ice time

3:03:39I'm just thinking unless you're expecting that once this model comes in are we going to have bookings consistently?

3:03:45most weekends

3:03:47Or are we going to expect a couple a season that I think that's what I'm trying to conceptualize

3:03:52Is it possible for the youth leagues to still book the ice time at the discount?

3:03:57And a couple times a month it might be that because you booked this this particular

3:04:02Ice pad you actually don't have a space this week

3:04:06So through the chair anything is of course possible and we will take your direction

3:04:09We're bringing you this operating model because we have heard loud and clear that we need to use Sleeman Center differently and use the space to be more

3:04:16productive

3:04:17Help the businesses downtown reduce the burden on the on the tax base. Of course, we will take your direction

3:04:23We don't recommend that because our time to accommodate these groups is now when we're adding the south end and we're adding inventory in

3:04:30So we don't think it would be beneficial for the groups to do that

3:04:34um, and so

3:04:35We would actually be hurting ourselves on both sides

3:04:38We would be

3:04:39Making it a little bit more difficult for us to use Sleeman Center in this new model and to access additional events

3:04:45And we'd be burdening the groups by bumping them and having nowhere else to put them

3:04:48It's much better for us to do this now and this is a once in a I don't know

3:04:53I don't

3:04:54Decade opportunity where we're bringing two pads of available ice time on

3:04:59Now is the time to do it when we can absolutely

3:05:02Accommodate all of those hours and give the groups their locked in time that they have now and give them that assurance at the youth discount rate

3:05:10If we don't and we say okay

3:05:12We're going to let you keep booking at Sleeman Center

3:05:15You know regardless regardless of what rent has paid because that actually is a little bit secondary to this

3:05:20But we'll bump you if we can get bookings

3:05:23I I still feel that it's probably going to slow Ms. Evans and mr. Giles down and their ability to market Sleeman Center

3:05:28But more importantly now we're going to be going to those groups and bumping them and having nowhere to and canceling their ice time

3:05:34So for me

3:05:36We're bringing an amount of ice time to the Jigwood State

3:05:38Let's do it now. Well, we're bringing two pads of wide open ice time into our inventory get everybody accommodated

3:05:46Everyone's going to have exactly the amount of ice time now and people are going to have more either existing clients

3:05:51Are going to have more ice time or new clients are going to be able to come into our system

3:05:53But this is our window of opportunity to do it

3:05:58Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it. I do understand where you're coming from

3:06:02Chair Downer, when the vote comes,

3:06:05I would like one and two separate from the number three please.

3:06:10Okay. So we had Councillor Ciaran,

3:06:13Councillor Hauser, Councillor,

3:06:18there's somebody else but I'll get,

3:06:20so I'll boost the tail and two and then we have Councillor Catalan at the end.

3:06:28Okay. Councillor, oh, was she?

3:06:30Okay. Councillor Keaton.

3:06:32Thank you. I don't have questions.

3:06:37I only have comments. Can I do those now?

3:06:40Can we save the comments till the end?

3:06:42Can I come back to you?

3:06:43Sure.

3:06:44Thank you.

3:06:45Councillor Ciaran. Great.

3:06:50I'm following up on

3:06:52Councillor Goller's line of questioning just about the youth subsidy because

3:06:56I recognize that we're making a change here and I recognize we have a window of opportunity,

3:07:02but we haven't opened the new facility,

3:07:04the dust hasn't settled and a lot of

3:07:05these youth sports associations have already set their fees and their rates for

3:07:102026. So I'm wondering if you could help me understand the impact,

3:07:14this is a two-part question,

3:07:15the impact of just deferring that clause or amending it to January 2027,

3:07:24whether that youth subsidy would allow a time for the dust to settle and

3:07:29other user groups to then plan not only their regular league play and

3:07:33their budgets and their sign-up process,

3:07:36but also we're talking a lot about ice time here,

3:07:40but the Sleeman Center in the summer months has,

3:07:43if I remember correctly,

3:07:45we've been the site for youth double Dutch skipping championships or dance competition.

3:07:53There have been other non-ice related Sleeman Center bookings where it's youth tournaments,

3:07:59youth practices and training,

3:08:01youth conferences, youth skills camps.

3:08:05I don't want to cut the youth subsidy for ice time when it may impact a lot of

3:08:10other different youth sports and activities.

3:08:12So could you comment on those two items?

3:08:14So through the chair, I think that's work that we can go away and look to see how

3:08:18often were those one-off type events accessing the youth subsidy and

3:08:22if Council chooses to leave the youth subsidy in place for those types of events,

3:08:26we can get you that information in a memo form.

3:08:29I think, yes, Dana is nodding. So good.

3:08:31I think to the broader question though of the groups having already set their rates,

3:08:35if we move their ice time out of Sleeman Center into the other arenas,

3:08:38there will be no impact on their rates because they will be accessing the youth subsidy.

3:08:42So that is really why it's important for us.

3:08:44Again, I'm sure I'm sounding like I'm repeating myself,

3:08:47but to move those groups who booked September to March ice time,

3:08:50we need to do that now to exactly address your concerns.

3:08:53So their rates aren't impacted if they've already set their fees,

3:08:56because by moving them to another arena,

3:08:59they'll be getting the youth subsidy.

3:09:01So I think looking at the youth subsidy for those one-offs,

3:09:05we can do that and get you a memo.

3:09:07Looking at the youth subsidy across,

3:09:10we want the groups to move out of Sleeman Center be accommodated elsewhere,

3:09:15and they will then have the youth subsidy still applied to their fees.

3:09:18Okay. Thanks. So this is more of a process question than for you, Madam Chair,

3:09:22is I don't want to vote for or against item three without that additional information.

3:09:27Can we just defer item number three to the end of the month until we have

3:09:30more information to be able to make an appropriate decision?

3:09:34Would that be a motion of deferral or we just have to pass or fail it?

3:09:37Can we do that?

3:09:39Through you, Madam Chair.

3:09:40I think we've done it before.

3:09:42It really depends what council's intention is.

3:09:44I mean, if you pass it tonight,

3:09:45it's going to come to council at the end of the month and it can be voted on and amended as normal.

3:09:49If you defer it, it's still just going to appear a council at the end of the month.

3:09:52Okay. I think deferral is probably the way to go to the end of the month,

3:09:56because if I were to vote on it today,

3:09:59I would vote against, but I don't want the motion to fail because if it fails,

3:10:02then it doesn't show up at the end of the month.

3:10:04Okay. So we'll take them separately.

3:10:05So deferral.

3:10:06We can do that at that time.

3:10:08Okay. So now I have

3:10:11Councillor Hauser and then Councillor Bousetail and Councillor Chew.

3:10:15Thank you through the chair.

3:10:17We've heard a lot about families that are going out of the city.

3:10:21I know we touched on this briefly,

3:10:23but I'm going out of the city and using ice time in other areas and there are

3:10:26wait lists, the 30 hours that we're using,

3:10:31and now we have 130 hours opening up,

3:10:33was there any accommodation or factoring in those wait lists and

3:10:36those people that have been going elsewhere?

3:10:39Because they're all going to be supposedly coming now to the new booking.

3:10:43So how quickly is that 130 hours going to be taken up?

3:10:49Through the chair to the Councillor,

3:10:51I don't have data on other organizations wait lists.

3:10:55We certainly have heard from one larger organization or

3:10:58a loud voice recently in the community,

3:11:02but I haven't been able to validate or work with them on that.

3:11:06We will knowing that we're adding more ice specifically,

3:11:10but more time both in the pool and in the gyms.

3:11:14When we open the South End Community Center,

3:11:15we will ask organizations what they're hoping for,

3:11:19what would be their dream now and in the future with more time.

3:11:24I'm trust we'll hear from Pickleball that they're looking for more gym time.

3:11:27And so what does that mean and what does that look like to them?

3:11:29Is it truly only one more hour a week for one organization or is it 12?

3:11:34And so getting some real pieces, there is lots of growth in sport and

3:11:39recreation happening across not just Guelph, Ontario and Canada and

3:11:44both indoors and out.

3:11:46And so it's just where and how we can as municipality accommodate,

3:11:50we'll do our very best to work and include growth.

3:11:54And it also include folks that don't currently have any access to our facilities as well.

3:12:00Thank you.

3:12:03Okay, thank you.

3:12:03Councillor Boussa-Till, is that your question?

3:12:05Yes, just so I am clear, I've heard it a number of times.

3:12:13When a user of the Sleeman Center is a youth organization,

3:12:17they will carry that discount to one of the other recreation centers.

3:12:22I just want to be very clear, that is what I'm taking away from here.

3:12:26What I see, and if staff can just tell me I'm on the right path here,

3:12:31is the process of disentangling the youth facility discount

3:12:36isn't just about the Sleeman Center, it's also to make it consistent around

3:12:41River Run Center and through Suzuki String School that book, The River Run Center.

3:12:46The Sleeman Center, the Arts and so on, that don't get that discount in a municipal facility.

3:12:52So what I'm seeing is that, and thank you for this report,

3:12:56because the Sleeman Center for me is an underutilized asset.

3:12:59I want rock concerts and you know, circuses and all sorts of things,

3:13:03and I understand the scheduling and planning, but it's also an underutilized asset

3:13:07where we can be generating some revenue and culturally and sports-wise and so on.

3:13:14So for me, the separation of the youth facility discount

3:13:19makes it consistent with how other youth groups are treated in the city of Guelph

3:13:24around municipal facilities, but also says you're not losing it,

3:13:27we're just moving you here to a different kind of facility and opening it up,

3:13:32opening up the Sleeman Center so that we can create some better revenue opportunities.

3:13:39And from my experience with just the planning and scheduling and bookings,

3:13:44not just at the city, but overall, is the city's going to know two years from now

3:13:48that the circus is coming up the state and it's blocked out.

3:13:52So can you just say yes, I'm on the right path because for me,

3:13:56I am absolutely fine with item number three, the way that it is,

3:14:00because it creates that equity across the system.

3:14:06Through the Councillor to the Chair, yes.

3:14:08And we are also very excited to bring some new opportunities,

3:14:12concerts and events for the community into Guelph as well.

3:14:16Thank you.

3:14:18Thank you, Councillor Chew.

3:14:20Yeah, through you, Madam Chair.

3:14:25I guess there are three buckets that I'm really considering here.

3:14:28I think first of the financial model, there's no question that,

3:14:33that 1.6 million dollar shortfall should continue.

3:14:38It's very unsustainable.

3:14:39I think we're all in agreement here and we appreciate your work as well to kind

3:14:43of bring us up to speed on that deficiency.

3:14:48And the second bucket is the vision for the Sleam and Centre.

3:14:51And I think, of course, we could be utilizing it much better than it is.

3:14:57However, I think to the folks that have young families in the city,

3:15:03like, not only is it like a cultural disposition to have ice time at the Sleam and Centre,

3:15:12but this is a necessity as well.

3:15:15Like, I understand where people are coming from when they say that ice time

3:15:21inevitably will be reduced because the booking is really difficult.

3:15:25So I empathize with people that reached out to me on that point.

3:15:32And then the third is also the transition with the additional capacity

3:15:36at the South End Community Centre.

3:15:39So three buckets there.

3:15:43I guess I'm just going to ask, we don't, we're not in a position yet to really look

3:15:49at the monitoring of the South End Community Centre and just, and the booking system

3:15:53because it's not yet online.

3:15:55But like, have staff considered some kind of a phase transition where, you know,

3:16:02Council could observe the system demand for the, after the pads are open before kind

3:16:08of making a permanent change to the Sleam and Booking model.

3:16:11And maybe you can kind of help me with that piece there because I think some monitoring

3:16:19of the Twin Pads and the Rec Centre I think will help us ascertain as well as whether

3:16:27we would want to keep some kind of exclusive booking at the Sleam and Centre for ice time

3:16:32because that's really what it comes down to for people.

3:16:35It's not about the youth subsidy.

3:16:37In my opinion, it's about the ice time, right?

3:16:40So can you kind of help anchor my thinking a little bit?

3:16:44Through the chair to the Councillor, I think in some of the correspondence

3:16:49that Council's received this week is about some changes to Sleam and Centre,

3:16:55but more about is there enough ice capacity across the City of Guelph?

3:17:00And we're relying on the needs assessment that was attached

3:17:05to the South End Community Centre growth that is looking for that eighth pad,

3:17:10which we haven't budgeted for or even validated whether that's still an accurate number.

3:17:16And in the coming years, and when South End does come online, we will do that work.

3:17:22Those new emerging sports could come along that need more ice or floor or gym space as well,

3:17:28and so we need to be responsible to adapt to all of those needs and uses.

3:17:34We will continue to review annually.

3:17:39We do work with community organisations to help them optimise and find efficiencies

3:17:45in how they use our places and spaces.

3:17:47And so that is maybe that monitoring specifically to South End that you're looking for,

3:17:54and that is happening.

3:17:55We support regular rental clients with some version of sort of legacy,

3:18:00where if they've had a certain amount of time in our facilities, we hope to honour that.

3:18:07It's not necessarily the same like for like place and space as we look to adjust these pieces as well.

3:18:15So think that we are set up to do that support and monitoring for you,

3:18:21and know that future work is and will be ongoing once we get in and settled to South End as well,

3:18:28to look at all of our arena spaces.

3:18:32Okay, and like you're more familiar than I am, but can you just walk me through like how we liaise

3:18:41with dedicated user groups like the Agwalf Linerhockey Association, the Ringette Group and the Women's Group,

3:18:47and like how that legacy component can be carried forward because there are a number of user groups,

3:18:56and I think the concern is that we're inevitably picking as well as to how we go about dedicating time,

3:19:06and I think that's a hard position for you to be put in as I can imagine.

3:19:12So how do we kind of create a system where we don't have to be cherry picking with lack of better words?

3:19:21Through the chair, to the councillor, we're going to rely heavily on the facility allocation policy

3:19:28that will continue to review who isn't and who is getting access to space.

3:19:34And so there has been adjustments.

3:19:36An outdoor sports user has seen a reduction or an adult sports user has seen a reduction of hours in the last couple of years

3:19:44to prioritise youth groups, for instance, outside on a sports field.

3:19:49So you're seeing that almost the list of what order we choose groups in, and so focusing on Guelph,

3:19:56focusing on youth first, doesn't also exclusively mean that we won't take or work with the other ages.

3:20:04If you will, because we need to find a balance across our community, and it is a balance and it is a certain fine line.

3:20:13We don't want to be cherry-poking.

3:20:14We're not taking the largest group just because they're the largest group, but there are large groups that have more time over others for sure.

3:20:22Thank you, and I'm just reminded of that recreation facility allocation process that we just passed.

3:20:27But I think I'm going to follow up with you before the end of the month on just the monitoring period

3:20:33and the transition to the South End Community Centre as we're framing it.

3:20:37And then, yeah, like, so like I understand where all the youth groups are coming from in terms of ice time,

3:20:47inevitably kind of being pushed, shuffled around.

3:20:52So I think if we can be a bit more, we can be intentional about that monitoring period.

3:20:59For me, like, that would give me some peace of mind.

3:21:02But yeah, I'll have some questions for them in the month for you.

3:21:04And I think some of the youth groups and people in the audience here today feel free to engage with us as well.

3:21:10We would highly encourage that.

3:21:11That's what community of the whole is for.

3:21:14So that's all I have.

3:21:16Thank you.

3:21:19Okay, thank you.

3:21:20I'm going to, are there any more questions before I move to comments?

3:21:24Councillor Katelyn, you had a comment.

3:21:26Yes, thank you very much.

3:21:30I think that staff did exactly what we asked them to do.

3:21:33We just passed an 8% property tax increase and we were looking at cost savings,

3:21:40where can we make the most use of our commercial grade facilities?

3:21:46And this report delivers on all of that.

3:21:52Personally, I think that if we don't pass the use family discount,

3:21:57then we're making a decision based on perception rather than the reality.

3:22:03We've got two new ranks coming online.

3:22:06We're waiting until that happens.

3:22:10And we know that there's going to be expanded time.

3:22:13You're not going to be in competition with commercial events.

3:22:18There's free parking.

3:22:19It's going to be easier.

3:22:21It's going to be easier to be in these other facilities.

3:22:25And it's not going to reduce any amount of the time.

3:22:28You're actually getting an increase.

3:22:31We're trying to make a responsible decision here that will lower the future needs

3:22:38for increases on property taxes.

3:22:40And we are increasing value to our families.

3:22:45So I think that this is a great report.

3:22:47And I'm going to be supporting all through motions.

3:22:50Thanks.

3:22:54Are there any additional comments?

3:22:57Councillor Bousta.

3:22:59Thank you, Ditto to Councillor Caton.

3:23:01And perhaps the economic opportunities is the lens that I use to look at this.

3:23:07There are the sponsorship opportunities.

3:23:09And in addition to the emails we've received about having to go to Cambridge

3:23:14to look for ICE, I'm aware of cultural groups that have had to go elsewhere.

3:23:19So there's the economic loss, again, to the arts and culture.

3:23:23And City Council's commitment to the cultural plan, our arts and cultural community.

3:23:28So I see this as an opportunity.

3:23:30It is a different facility.

3:23:31We have a south end recreation opportunity with a youth subsidy that's going to continue

3:23:37for ICE rinks.

3:23:39So I see this as an economic opportunity.

3:23:42Thank you.

3:23:44Councillor Goller.

3:23:46Thank you, Andrea, Chair Downer.

3:23:48I really appreciate that, as my council colleagues have said, staff did what council

3:23:54asked to do to find better use of this facility.

3:23:58I support the changes in the booking.

3:24:00I understand that.

3:24:02I will be voting to defer item number three so that we can understand the impact, the

3:24:09actual impact, so that those youth groups that would come and use the space.

3:24:14And I think that if it is a smaller impact, we should still be affording them the discount,

3:24:19understanding that leagues will not be given the opportunity to book that far in advance.

3:24:23But if it comes to, you know, the end of August and we still don't have something booked for

3:24:29the fall, there may still be an opportunity for them to book in and have those youth programs

3:24:34available at the Justine Munn Centre.

3:24:37Thank you.

3:24:38Are there any other comments?

3:24:43I did want to ask Deputy CEO Crack Butch, if she had any comments before we went to vote

3:24:47and then I have something to say too.

3:24:51Certainly thank you for the opportunity.

3:24:52So certainly I just want to emphasize that we have heard, so we will get a supplemental

3:24:56memo to you that breaks down the difference in how many of those events at Sleeman Centre

3:25:01that would be moved elsewhere are currently receiving the subsidy versus how many are

3:25:05those sort of one-off type events.

3:25:07So we will get you that memo on the agenda for the end of the month and certainly want

3:25:13to continue.

3:25:14Mr. Giles and Ms. Evans are and I are all available to talk to any user groups to help assure

3:25:21how we are going to accommodate that ice time that's moving out of the Sleeman Centre

3:25:25and how we will make sure that we are maintaining the current ice time.

3:25:29And then maybe just the only other comment is we're not the only city that struggles

3:25:33with available ice.

3:25:34That is common.

3:25:35I think there's a recent report coming out of Centre Wellington that they are struggling

3:25:38with having enough ice surfaces.

3:25:41This is a moment in time where we are gaining, let's call it one and a half pads in the south

3:25:46end if we're talking about moving some of the Sleeman ice to there.

3:25:49So it is still exciting.

3:25:51I don't want to lose track of the fact that we are adding ice inventory and thank you

3:25:55to Council for committing to the south end community centre because it is important.

3:25:59We also recognize that it doesn't completely solve the problem and that lots of other

3:26:04municipalities struggle with this.

3:26:06And so I think the commitment from the team is once south end is open and again speaking

3:26:10specifically to ice time, we'll continue to do that evaluation so that we can look and

3:26:15come back to Council about what future needs are going to look like for arenas and if there

3:26:19is additional growth needed and at what point in the future we need to do that because we

3:26:25do recognize that across south western Ontario ice time is a challenge.

3:26:29Okay, thank you.

3:26:31Thank you.

3:26:32Councillor Keaton.

3:26:33So it comes to Coran.

3:26:34Thanks, Chair Downer.

3:26:35I just had one quick question that sparked.

3:26:38Do we have a new ice pad in the capital budget for 2023?

3:26:43Is that in our 10 year capital plan?

3:26:45Through the chair.

3:26:46No, we don't have any additional ice surfaces.

3:26:51And so the intention was that once south end was online and we're looking at capacity and

3:26:56evaluating that needs assessment, we would then come back and determine.

3:27:01We also have a couple of our arenas that are aging infrastructure and so I think more than

3:27:04likely what you're going to see is capital needs related to maintaining our existing

3:27:09arenas that are aging.

3:27:11But we will come back to the future term of Council once we have sort of evaluated that

3:27:16after the south end is open and then start to project out the future needs.

3:27:20Okay, so the comment, so what I would say is having been around I think with Councillor

3:27:27Billings when we opened this, the Sleeman Centre 100 years ago, but it was intended

3:27:34to be a spectator facility.

3:27:37That's why we built it.

3:27:38It was, you know, the storm was looking for a new home, but it was a spectator facility,

3:27:44a premier one that had seating for spectator, not just sports, events and concerts and everything.

3:27:52We haven't been able to achieve that one part of that on the entertainment, on the strictly

3:27:57entertainment and on the side of that, but you know it still is a great facility.

3:28:03And so I think, you know, and Councils all through those years, all through these last

3:28:0725 years have been looking for a way to better utilize the Sleeman Centre to its full potential

3:28:13and we've never really been there.

3:28:15This is actually the first time and thank you to staff that we've actually seen a plan

3:28:20that can bring us there.

3:28:21And part of it's been that we, you know, the delay of the South End Rec Centre and these

3:28:25delays, you know, you don't think about it at the time.

3:28:28You think, oh, we're delaying, you know, that, but you're also, you're also creating other

3:28:33backup problems like we've had at the Sleeman Centre that have not allowed us to meet that

3:28:38potential and has cost us in other ways.

3:28:41So delays cost in many ways, not only in the actual construction process, but then the

3:28:47other, the opportunities lost as well.

3:28:50So I did want to add that and so this is, I think this is a great opportunity.

3:28:54I think it's going to be a transition time and I do want to see some monitoring of how

3:28:59we go through this and I think it's, like I said, I think it's a great opportunity and

3:29:07I'd like to thank staff for bringing forward this work now and hopefully we can work with

3:29:14the groups to work out the issues with the South End Rec Centre booking and how, you

3:29:22know, we can utilize the Sleeman Centre too if there's no bookings and at the beginning

3:29:27of the month and they want to book extra practices in there, that can be done.

3:29:31So I think that allows that kind of flexibility within there too.

3:29:36So I will separate the motions.

3:29:39So I need a mover for 1 and 2.

3:29:44Okay, Councillor Hauser and Councillor Richardson.

3:29:48Seconds that, is there anyone opposed to 1 and 2?

3:29:53Okay, seeing none.

3:29:56Then number three is that the youth is about the youth facility discount.

3:30:01So I know someone to entertain the idea of referral.

3:30:06Councillor Goller and Councillor Caron wanted to put the motion of a deferral.

3:30:11Is it a referral or deferral?

3:30:12Would you prefer?

3:30:13I would ask the clerk.

3:30:15Through you, Madam Chair, typically a motion would be put on the floor and then deferred.

3:30:19So typically you'd have a mover and seconder for number three and then the idea is to add

3:30:22debate and discuss it at the end of the month.

3:30:25Can we ask you to do, no, okay, who would put number three on the floor?

3:30:29So the booster tail, seconded by Councillor Billings.

3:30:32Then Councillor Goller now, Councillor Caron have a referral.

3:30:36Okay, so can we vote on the referral?

3:30:40Is there anyone opposed?

3:30:43Through you, Madam Chair, do we have a seconder on the deferral?

3:30:45I just want to make sure I have that noted.

3:30:46Yes, Councillor Caron.

3:30:47Thank you.

3:30:48Is there anyone opposed to the referral of this?

3:30:50We're going to be voting on this at the end of the month.

3:30:52So 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

3:30:57So that passes.

3:30:59Sorry, that fails.

3:31:02That motion, the referral fails and we'll go back to the main number three.

3:31:09And then still at the end of the month, we will still be debating this regardless.

3:31:14So anyone opposed to number three?

3:31:17So there's 1, 2, 3, 3, Councillor, as opposed to that.

3:31:22Through you, Madam Chair, I just need you to verbalize the votes against as the Chair.

3:31:27For vote results, please.

3:31:28So if you can say the name of the members.

3:31:30Okay, Councillor Goller, Councillor Hauser, Councillor Chew and Councillor Caron against.

3:31:40So that passes.

3:31:43Do we need to put the whole all three motions on the floor again?

3:31:46Three, Madam Chair, no, all three motions will appear at council at the end of the month.

3:31:50Okay, I think we're we've completed that.

3:31:54Thank you to city staff for bringing that forward.

3:31:58And then I think we, you know what, I don't have the last page at the agenda in front of me.

3:32:05Do you have it?

3:32:13So there are no votes.

3:32:14Okay.

3:32:15So are there any service area announcements for public services?

3:32:20No.

3:32:21I just need a motion to adjourn then.

3:32:23Councillor Bousetail, seconded by Councillor Richardson.

3:32:27Is anyone opposed?

3:32:29That passes.

3:32:31See you next week.

3:32:32Thank you.

3:32:35I wasn't sure whether there was anything like any other bylaws or anything.

3:32:40By the way, we don't do those, do we?