Council Planning

7:40All right. Good day everybody. It is June the 10th, Tuesday and 2025 here for our city council planning meeting. Thank you very much for joining us.

7:50Right off the top, we do have an in camera discussion that we're looking for approval to move in camera to discuss and that is on the open agenda.

8:01It's listed as memorandum of agreement between the city of Guelph and the Canadian Union of Public Employees Local 241 and Local 973.

8:11Are you going to do conflicted interest?

8:15Yeah, I was about to. I was just going to read it out that I was going to do that. So yep, absolutely. I'll get to that.

8:21That's under section 239 2D of the Municipal Act regarding labor relations or employee negotiations.

8:27Is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest or general nature thereof for the item in close before I go in?

8:33Councillor Downer?

8:35Yes, I have one on that item, the only item as I have a family member who works for the city and is in Local 973.

8:46No problem. Thank you. And as usual, just so everyone knows, Councillor Downer won't partake, be a part of the meeting during that time at all.

8:53And I'll confirm that when I come out with the high level summary. So I'm looking for a motion to move into closed.

9:00Let's do a clos in and a caller. That'd be great. And I'll call the vote. Is anyone against?

9:08Nobody? Okay, let's move into closed session and we should be back out soon. Our open session starts at six o'clock. Thank you.

20:13We are done the closed session and we will start the open session at 6 o'clock. Thank you.

30:27Just a five minute warning, everybody. Okay. Two minute warning, everybody.

33:47Accounts or Billings? Can you just try your audio for us just to make sure we can hear you?

34:11If you can hear me, Councillor Billings, you just got to press star six on your phone to unmute.

34:20Okay, I'm unmuted.

34:22Okay, great. Yeah, we can hear you. Just want to make sure you're there. Okay, thank you so much.

34:25Okay.

34:26All right. Thanks, everyone. Good evening. It is six o'clock. It's Tuesday, June the 10th, 2025.

35:26Thank you so much for joining our planning meeting of council.

35:30Earlier, we did go into a closed session just under one item. I just want to openly confirm that Councillor Downer did declare a conflict was not part of the meeting at all.

35:43I just want to state that for her benefit. And we were there under the memorandum of agreement between the City of Guelph and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local 241 and Local 973.

35:56And we did give direction to staff on that item. Okay, just to close the loop on that.

36:02With that, please stand if you're able as we recognize our national anthem. Thank you so much.

37:35And we'll just have a moment of silent reflection before we continue.

37:56Thank you. Now our Indigenous territorial acknowledgement as we gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work here in Guelph.

38:04A city that's built over rich Indigenous histories. Guests here should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land, the people who live here today, and the generations to come.

38:15For actions today can move us towards reconciliation. We should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude.

38:22This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for many peoples over time, but more specifically the Anoan Rock and the Holm Nechoni.

38:31This land is held as the treaty lands and territory with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation.

38:36Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Hallamond Track and is part of a long-established traditional hunting grounds for the six nations of the Grand River.

38:44Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis people who have come from across Turtle Island call Guelph home today.

38:50Thank you. Is there any other disclosure or pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof for the items that are in front of us today?

38:59Okay, Councillor Gibson.

39:02Yeah, thank you, Mr. Mayor. I've let clerks know that I'll be recusing myself from the conversation around Bill 5, Councillor Caron's motion.

39:09I work for a potentially on-power generation company and did act to avoid any real or perceived conflicts around economic zones. I will be removing myself from that conversation.

39:21Alright, thank you very much. Appreciate that.

39:25We're in our consent agenda and I have been just giving the heads up already by Councillor Goller. I think Councillor Goller,

39:36you're willing to move, I think, consent. However, you would like one of them voted on separately. Is that correct? On 72 Gordon Street?

39:44Yes, Your Worship. And I also wanted to ask, published agenda for item 5.8, 79 South Oak. The recommendation says 5 Queen Street.

39:55So I just wanted to have that amended to reflect 79 South Oak for 5.10 in the consent agenda. Just so we don't accidentally approve 5 Queen before we talk about it.

40:14Okay, I'm so sorry. I have lost you. I understand you wanted to pull 5.2.

40:20No, just what are you trying to say on the other item?

40:23I'm sorry, I thought you were looking at the title. I apologize. That will be catched and amended as required.

40:44So why don't we, just to make a point, I'm going to call the vote on 5.8 standalone to acknowledge that we are making sure that that is corrected. The wording is corrected.

40:58So clerks and staff, you're noticing that, right? Okay. So it should not say 5 Queen Street there. It should say 79 South Oak Street West.

41:09Everyone good with that? It's an administrative catch. Okay. So you're good with that clerk? Everyone's good? Okay.

41:18So I'm voting on that one separately just to make a point that we caught it. Okay. So I'm going to have you move it for me. So it's moved by Councillor Gull or seconded by Councillor Bousetil. Thank you.

41:30I'm going to call the vote. Is anyone against that as corrected as amended? Okay. That's unanimous and with it corrected. Okay. Thank you.

41:40What I'm going to do is I'm going to now go back to the rest of the consent. Is there anyone else that wants to pull any of the items other than 72 Gordon Street, which we'll vote on separately?

41:51So is anyone want to pull 128 Dufferin Street, 14 Mitchell, 15 Gordon, 57 Kirkland Street, 75 South Oak Street West, 77 South Oak Street West. And that's it. Is there anybody that wants?

42:08No. All right. Who would like to help me move those then please? Ault and Koran. Thank you. Anything further?

42:18No. I'm going to call the vote on those. Is anyone against? No. Okay. That's unanimous on that. I'm going to now call the vote separately as requested on 5.1, which is 72 Gordon Street with the objection to notice of intention to designate.

42:38So I'll call the vote on that everyone. Is there anyone against? Please raise your hand. All right. So Chiu, Gull or Guthrie?

42:50And maybe. Oh, okay. I'm Billings. Thank you so much. Okay. So that passes. Thank you very much.

42:59And now we are off of the consent and we are moving into the applications to hear under the planning act. The first one is 725 Imperial Road North, which is a proposed zoning bylaw amendment.

43:17And Councillor Billings and Councillor Busuttil. It's Ward 4 tonight. A lot of development applications in Ward 4. So Eric, Rumpel, our planner from the city is going to do a presentation first.

43:31And then we do have a delegation on this as well. And with that, it is both a hearing and a decision meeting all in one. Okay. So everyone knows.

43:43And Eric, he's so much. I'll turn it over to you. Thank you very much. Mr. Mayor. So good. Good evening. Mayor Guthrie, members of city council staff and members of the public.

43:55The city has received an application for a zoning bylaw amendment from MHBC planning to rezone the property known municipally as 725 Imperial Road North to permit the development of a six story hotel on a vacant portion of the subject lands.

44:09The proposed hotel would be located to the south of the existing four story hotel that would remain in operation. Today's meeting is the statutory public meeting required under the planning act.

44:18As well as the decision meeting for the proposed application.

44:21The subject site has an approximate a lot area of 0.8 hectares with 48 meters of frontage on Imperial Road North.

44:31And the lands are currently vacant, save and accept for a small existing surface parking lot that is that currently serves the existing four story hotel to the north.

44:41The subject lands are immediately bound on all sides by commercial uses, including the hotel to the north, gas station and fat fast food restaurants to the south, a movie theater to the west and car dealership to the east.

44:54Existing industrial uses are located further north and south immediately beyond the adjacent sites.

45:04The subject property is designated service commercial in the official plan. This land use designation applies to commercial areas that predominantly support highway oriented or service oriented commercial uses that cannot be readily located within the downtown area or shopping center location.

45:20This includes uses that primarily rely on business from tourists and interurban traffic such as hotels, gas bars and fast food restaurants.

45:28The proposed hotel is permitted as of right in the service commercial designation.

45:35The subject lands are zoned service commercial SC and the comprehensive zoning viola.

45:40The surrounding properties are also zoned service commercial with industrial and natural heritage lands located further beyond.

45:50So the service commercial zone permits hotels as of right, but at a maximum at a maximum height of three stories.

45:57So the proposed zoning for this site is specialized service commercial SC dash five, which would maintain most of the zoning provisions that are already in effect, but would permit a maximum building height of six stories in height, as well as a reduced landscape buffer of,

46:13I believe one meter to the interior side yard lot line.

46:17Going further into those sites, provisions. So again, there's the additional height as well as the reduced landscape buffer. There are also two provisions required solely because these provisions for parking rates are currently under appeal under the are with the Ontario land tribunal.

46:36So therefore a request for a parking rate of one space per guest unit or guest room, as well as a permission of at least 15% of the minimum required spaces to be provided as compact spaces are also requested again to clarify these provisions were approved in the

46:562020 zoning bylaw and council voted on it. And this is just to bring that in effect as those provisions are currently under appeal. Here you can see the proposed site plan for the development with Imperial Road north to the left of the screen and existing for story hotel at the top of the screen.

47:19The proposed hotel would utilize the existing accesses to Imperial Road that are in place for the existing for story hotel and no new accesses are proposed. Both the proposed six story hotel and the existing four story hotel would meet the minimum parking apartments in the zoning bylaw.

47:38Staff's review of this application included evaluation of the proposals conformity and consistency to the 2024 provincial planning statement evaluation of the proposals conformity with the official plan review of the proposed zoning review of the built form compatibility with adjacent and established land uses and review of supporting documents submitted with the development application.

48:00As of this afternoon, no comments from the public have been received regarding the proposed the proposed application as outlined in the staff report staff recommend approval of the proposed application with a holding provision to ensure that technical concerns raised by engineering staff are addressed prior to a building permit being issued.

48:17Thank you very much and I would be pleased to answer any questions council may have.

48:21Well, thank you so much and because we do have a delegation will maybe just get back to you in a second but thank you for giving us the overview.

48:30Rachel Wolf and Dan Curry is here. Am I right? Yeah. Come on down. How are you?

48:43I'm good. Thank you. How are you?

48:45Is it just going to be just you just joining us then?

48:47Yes.

48:48Okay. And so you have up to 10 minutes if you if you need it and thank you for coming and whenever you start talking the timer will start.

48:57You will hear a chime at the nine minute 30 second mark, which is giving you the 30 second warning and then the floor opens up. You're done.

49:05So make sure that you make sure you don't get there. Okay.

49:08Okay. I hope not.

49:10Yeah.

49:11We have a very brief presentation.

49:13So good evening.

49:16Mr. Mayor, gone three and members of council. My name is Rachel Wolf. I'm an associate planner with MHBC planning here representing the applicant and owner of 725 Imperial Road North.

49:28Here this evening, essentially in full support of staff, the staff report and staff recommendations for approval of the zoning bylaw amendment with the holding provision to update the environmental site assessment and

49:46or technical or provide a technical memorandum and the reliance letters from a qualified professional.

49:53We do have a brief presentation and recognizing everyone's time here this evening. I'll skip over any slides that are really duplications of Mr. Rampals.

50:05So just a quick overview proposing a six story hotel with a total of 152 guest rooms.

50:26It's a two-bedroom hotel with a total of 152 guest rooms.

50:30It's kind of an even split between two bedroom units intended for short term use and two bedroom suites intended for longer term occupancies.

50:41It is adjacent to an existing four story hotel that contains 94 guest rooms.

50:48There are several amenities being provided within the proposed hotel use.

50:54On this plan, just identifying the requested amendment to the zoning bylaw for the one meter landscape buffer strip.

51:06It is noted that the actual hotel proper is set back three meters from the property line in compliance with the zoning bylaw regulations.

51:17And the amendment is being requested to provide for a two meter wide pedestrian sidewalk at the rear of the building.

51:26So just a view from the existing hotel and another view from Imperial Road North.

51:36So just a really quick summary of what those requested provisions in the zoning amendment are.

51:45The one meter wide landscape buffer as noted and the allowance for a six-story building height and then the one space per guest room is a technical provision.

52:02It's in alignment with the current zoning, but the previous zoning bylaw will require that technical amendment.

52:12So as noted, the municipal servicing capacity is available and connections will be made internally to share with the existing hotel.

52:25There's a number of plans and reports that will be provided and addressed through the formal site plan application process.

52:34All very typical of the application process foresight plan, including stormwater management and infiltration gallery details, a geotechnical analysis, detailed grading and servicing and detailed buildings design, including any noise mitigation measures that may be required.

52:54And I think that is that is all.

53:00Great. No chime, no nothing. Thank you very much.

53:03Thank you.

53:04Is there any follow up question to the delegate at this time?

53:07No, you're good to go. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right.

53:11What we'll do now is we'll just have to wait because it's a planning meeting. We just do have to allow a chance just in case someone wants to call in.

53:18Or is there anyone else in the audience that wants to talk about this?

53:22No.

53:23Please just give us like three to four minutes just to see if anyone wants to call in. There'll be a number that will fly up on the screen here for us.

53:30It's 519-837-5603.

53:35So if anyone wants to call in, we'll just wait to see if someone does want to call in. And then if not, we'll take it from there.

53:41So just give us a moment. Great. Thank you for holding everybody.

56:03And we had no one call in. No one here wants to talk about it. So that's great.

56:11And so before we continue, I'll just ask to have this approval and application put down.

56:20I know that it's because Ward 4, Boussatil said that she would be happy to do that.

56:24I know buildings would probably be okay with the seconding that. Councillor Billings?

56:28I'm seconding it. All right. Perfect.

56:31So it's on the floor for approval. Is there any questions at all before I call the vote?

56:36No. All right. I'm going to call the vote. Is anyone against? Give you up. You're done.

56:45Good luck to you. Thank you for choosing Guelph to build another hotel. Appreciate it.

56:53Okay. We're moving right on to the next one, which is also in Ward 4.

56:56Public and Decision Meeting for 81 Royal Road, proposed Official Plan and Zoning Bylaw Amendment.

57:01Eric, you get to come right back up. And whenever you're ready, go right ahead.

57:08Excellent. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

57:13The city has received an application for an Official Plan Amendment and Zoning Bylaw Amendment from Agora Research Group to redesignate and rezone the property known as 81 Royal Road to permit the development of a commercial building defined as an industrial supply outlet on a portion of the subject lands.

57:30The proposed commercial building will be located at the corner of Woodlion Road West and Royal Road.

57:35Today's meeting is a statutory public meeting as well as the decision meeting for the proposed application.

57:48I can't seem to move this forward. Thank you.

57:57The portion of the subject site that the proposed amendments would apply to has an area of approximately 1.2 hectares with 85 meters of frontage on Woodlion Road West and approximately 145 meters of frontage on Royal Road.

58:10The remaining 1.3 of the property would remain industrial with no amendments.

58:14The portion of the land subject to the proposed applications are currently vacant.

58:18Industrial land uses are located to the west, south, and east of the subject lands, including an access easement to 350 Woodlion Road West over a portion of the subject lands that are currently not subject of the application.

58:31You can see it in the area over there.

58:34Service commercial uses are located to the north of the subject lands across Woodlion Road West.

58:38The proposal would see the construction of a one-story commercial building located at the corner of Royal Road and Woodlion Road West, and the site would be accessed directly from Royal Road.

58:54Here you can see the concept plan showing the proposed development with Woodlion Road West located to the left-hand side of the screen and Royal Road located at the bottom of the screen.

59:05The subject property is currently designated industrial in the official plan.

59:11This land use designation is intended to accommodate a range of industrial uses, or industrial-related employment uses, so that would include manufacturing, repair and servicing operations, research and development, and warehousing uses.

59:24The industrial designation does not permit commercial uses like the proposed industrial supply outlet use.

59:30For this reason, a site-specific official plan amendment is requested to permit the proposed industrial supply outlet use on the industrial designated lands.

59:39For some further context, the subject site is located within Guelph's Northwest Industrial Park, a provincially designated employment area.

59:49You can see the subject lands outlined in red on the screen, with the surrounding land shaded in purple forming the remainder of the designated employment area.

1:00:00The subject lands are currently zone industrial B in the comprehensive zoning bylaw, and the proposed zoning application would change the zoning to B-18 industrial to facilitate the proposed development.

1:00:13The industrial B-18 zone would permit the proposed industrial supply outlet use, and additionally the applicant has requested two site-specific provisions.

1:00:26Firstly, to permit a principal entrance to be located towards the interior lot line of the property, and also to permit a minimum off-street parking rate of five spaces per 100 square meters of commercial floor area for the industrial supply outlet use.

1:00:41Staff's review of this application includes evaluation of the proposals conformity and consistency to the 2024 Provincial Planning Statement, evaluation of the proposals conformity with the official plan, review of the proposed zoning, review of the built form compatibility with adjacent and established land uses, and review of supporting documents submitted with the development application.

1:01:01As of this afternoon, no comments from the public have been received regarding the proposed application.

1:01:07As outlined in the staff report, staff have significant concerns about the proposed commercial use located within industrial lands.

1:01:14In staff's professional opinion, the proposed use in the designated employment area does not conform with the Provincial Planning Statement or official plan policy that requires the city to preserve employment lands for permitted employment uses.

1:01:27As such, staff recommend refusal of the proposed Official Plan Amendment and zoning bylaw amendment applications.

1:01:33Thank you, and I would be pleased to answer any questions Council may have.

1:01:39Thank you so much, Eric.

1:01:41Is there, you can feel free to have a seat if you want, we can engage with you from there.

1:01:47Is there, there's no delegations on this one, but I will just again allow anyone to call in, let's just see if there's anyone.

1:01:55And would you like to speak to it?

1:01:57Okay, come on up. We'll just do you first and then, and then I'll put the full number up and just feel free to state your name. If you don't mind for the record.

1:02:11Yeah, just give me a second here.

1:02:12Okay.

1:02:27Thank you, Mayor Guthrie and Council members.

1:02:29I just remember there'd be no more than 10 minutes. Okay.

1:02:32Right.

1:02:33So please, please go ahead state your name.

1:02:35Thank you.

1:02:36My name is Claudio Belbino from the Agora Research Group.

1:02:39We're land use planners and market analysts representing the registered owner of 81 Royal Road.

1:02:44Also joining me tonight is Brad Ireland, IJK Holding, the property owner, and my Matt Weiser, which is the project architect from the JCR architects.

1:02:56We have read the staff planning report and respectfully disagree with the recommendation.

1:03:01As I'm sure you're aware, the proposed tenant is Princess Auto.

1:03:05Princess Auto is a Canadian industrial supply outlet chain specializing in farm, industrial, garage, hydraulics, and surplus items.

1:03:14The outlet supplies components, spare parts, accessory and equipment that a company or industry needs, both for their own facilities, as well as tools and supplies for its production processes.

1:03:26Headquartered in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Princess Auto owns and operates 55 outlets in 10 provinces, along with three distribution centers in Canada.

1:03:35Princess Auto serves a customer base that is composed of contractors, mechanics, farmers, tradespeople, and industrial workers, total of approximately 20% of the outlet sales.

1:03:46That purchase tools and equipment for their shops and farms.

1:03:50It's a use that does not detract from and is compatible with the development and operation of industrial uses.

1:03:57Princess Auto is a unique retail commercial offering, as the majority of its customer base is non-retail.

1:04:04As mentioned, the sales split is 70% business oriented, while 30% is retail.

1:04:09And just to further define retail sales to make a distinction, Stats Canada defines retail purchases as purchases for home use or consumption.

1:04:17So in the case of Princess Auto, 70% of the sales are for non-home use.

1:04:21From a market and store location perspective, combined with its value proposition, Princess Auto seeks locations within employment zone clusters, versus being located in neighborhood, community, or regional shopping centers.

1:04:35Almost all of the Princess Auto company locations in Ontario are situated in employment land clusters and on busy arterials away from residential uses.

1:04:45Specifically, the proposal is to construct a one-story commercial building measuring 30,000 square feet on the northern portion of the site with appropriate setbacks, parking, and landscaping.

1:04:56The balance of the site, 40%, will remain undeveloped and will be dedicated to future existing industrial use zone uses.

1:05:04Supporting the proposal is a sign 25-year lease between the property owner and Princess Auto conditional upon receiving the appropriate municipal approvals.

1:05:14The site is situated within Guelph's Northwest Industrial Area Municipal Lands.

1:05:20The surrounding lands are mostly developed and can be generally described as predominantly industrial and service commercial uses.

1:05:27Based upon consulting studies, Northwest Industrial Park Employment Lands represent approximately 70% of the employment lands square footage in the Guelph Market.

1:05:37The Northwest Industrial Park is approximately 90% built out with some green field parcels remaining on the southwest and the northwest.

1:05:48Structural changes in the economy, such as increased demand for manufacturing, warehouse, data centers, cold storage facilities, and e-commerce distribution centers are changing the nature of employment areas in Ontario, including the built form and character.

1:06:04Most of these high value uses require large sites typically measuring at least 20 acres.

1:06:09The smaller sites, such as Royal Road, with less than five acres of land, are not viable for the emerging advanced industrial uses.

1:06:16In this case, a supportive use catering to employers and employees within the employment zone cluster appears to be a practical solution.

1:06:24The following section refers to the official plan policies.

1:06:28So the requested site specific official plan amendment and zoning bylaw amendment only apply to the northern portion of the state, which measures approximately 1.2 hectares.

1:06:38In terms of industrial uses, there is clearly a need for employment areas to provide a wide range of employment supported uses that serve the needs of employers and employees within the employment areas.

1:06:49In support of the industrial supply outlet, the following is a recommendation from the executive summary related to the employment land strategy shaping Guelph, the growth management strategy of November 27, 2020, which is used to create the new official plan.

1:07:05The recommendation is from page nine of the executive summary and states as follows.

1:07:10The intention of employment supportive uses in employment areas should be to serve the needs of employers and employees within the employment area, as opposed to the broader population.

1:07:19The recommendation further states that the city should continue to assess the provision for commercial community and institutional uses within employment areas on the degree to which the use supports and compliments employment uses within employment areas and does not a first adversely affect the stability of employment areas.

1:07:38Excuse me.

1:07:44There's not adversely impact other designated employment uses and is compatible with neighboring land uses. Furthermore, page four of the shaping Guelph employment land strategy staff report dated December 11, 2020 provides the following recommendation.

1:07:59There is a need for employment areas to provide for a wide range of amenities and employment supportive uses such as retail service and institutional uses to serve the needs of employers and employees within the employment areas as opposed to the broader population.

1:08:13The recommendation further states to provide clarity on the intent of these uses a maximum retail area should be considered.

1:08:21In terms of retail size the Guelph official plan states that the major retail uses are not permitted within employment areas. Employment lands include industrial corporate business park and institutional and research park.

1:08:33Major retail uses as defined by the official plan glossary states that retail uses that are greater than 35,000 square feet are permitted.

1:08:42The proposed industrial outland measuring 30,000 square feet is smaller than the 35,000 square feet threshold defined in the official plan.

1:08:51In terms of employment density targets.

1:08:55The industrial component of the employment lands official plan policy is projected to achieve a density target of 35 jobs per hectare.

1:09:02The total number of employees that are proposed to work in the industrial supply will be 55.

1:09:08The most money measured on the jobs per hectare metric will be 45 jobs per hectare which exceeds the policy requirement of 35.

1:09:17For comparison purposes if uses such as the warehouse and manufacturing were located on the site within the same building size they would generate far less than the 55 jobs that are being created.

1:09:32In terms of the provincial policy statement it states that the planning authorities may remove lands from employment areas under certain criteria.

1:09:41One of the key criteria is related to the municipality having sufficient employment lands to accommodate projected employment growth.

1:09:49In terms of surplus employment lands the staff report indicates that there were 35 surplus hectares of employment lands when the 2020 strategy report was completed.

1:09:58The approval of the Guelph Innovation District Secondary Plan re-designated 26 hectares of the employment lands to other uses.

1:10:06As a result the surplus of 35 hectares of employment lands has been reduced to a surplus of 9 hectares.

1:10:13As there are currently 9 surplus hectares of employment lands in Guelph the outlet development would marginally reduce that number to approximately 8 hectares.

1:10:24Now in terms of the requested site specific zoning bylaw amendment we notice that there is a concern related to parking.

1:10:33We understand that staff prefer a smaller ratio based upon a three spaces per 100 square meters.

1:10:39However we've contacted Princess Auto and they have provided traffic and parking analysis indicating that operationally the Princess Auto outlet requires five spaces per 100 meters squared.

1:10:50In fact none of their outlets have a ratio of less than 4.5.

1:10:55We're happy to share this information that with staff is required.

1:10:59So in summary the site is situated in a central location for use that supports employers and employees within the northwest industrial area of Guelph.

1:11:09The site is generally flat, does not contain any significant nature natural features and is part of a stable and mature industrial and commercial service area.

1:11:19The site will be connected to municipal services and is of the appropriate size to accommodate suitably designed industrial commercial building along with appropriate parking and landscaping.

1:11:30The industrial supply outlet does not interfere with or disrupt the industrial and commercial service characteristics of the area.

1:11:37In fact the outlet of this nature enhances the quality of the employment zone by providing much needed industrial supplies and equipment to local trades and manufacturing establishments in the surrounding area.

1:11:48The findings of the technical reports support the proposed development and specifically support the requested site, specific official plan and zoning bylaw amendments.

1:11:59In conclusion it's a professional opinion that the proposed development will support the efficient build out of the site and Guelph's mature northwestern industrial area and is representative of good land use planning.

1:12:12Thank you and we will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

1:12:17Thank you.

1:12:18Great, thank you.

1:12:20I have, it looks like two questions. I'll start with Councillor Caiten and then Gibson please.

1:12:28Thank you. Through you Mr. Mayor.

1:12:31When I was looking online at Princess Auto on Indeed it seems that most of their employment is at minimum wage and their higher management for customer service staff was only listed at $20 which is less than the livable wage in Guelph.

1:12:51Is that their intent to be doing minimum wage jobs?

1:12:57I can't speak for the company.

1:12:59Yeah, I'm going to just jump in there. I'm going to just call that out of order and our staffer in agreement with me in the room, Councillor Caiten, this is a planning decision, not a wage decision for a private company.

1:13:11So, you still have the floor but that's not relevant to planning justification.

1:13:16I was just commenting because they mentioned the amount of employment it would be. So, if we're comparing industrial employment wages versus retail employment wages, that was my thought but I understand.

1:13:31Okay, so do you have a question?

1:13:33No, that was it. Thanks.

1:13:35Okay.

1:13:36Councillor Gibson.

1:13:38Yeah, thank you for Mr. Mayor. I'm going to follow up with staff on this as well but I wanted to give the delegate an opportunity.

1:13:44The employment numbers are intriguing because we are in designated employment land. I just want to give you the opportunity to expand on the number of jobs you're proposing.

1:13:54I'm going to take this question to staff next but it sounded to me like you were exceeding the desired employment for the area under an industrial use and it's really just, we're talking about the type of employment rather than the actual number of employment.

1:14:08It sounds to me from the staff recommendation. Do you want to expand on that at all?

1:14:13Well, yeah, so let me just get there.

1:14:16Second.

1:14:18So the employment density targets for the industrial area of the employment lands in the official plan is 35 jobs per hectare.

1:14:34The total number of employees that are proposed to work at the industrial supply it will be 55. So but what we have to do is because the, there's 1.2 hectares, we have to basically reduce that metric on a per hectare basis.

1:14:51So that works out to 45 jobs per hectare. So it's basically 55, the number 55 divided by 1.2 will give you 45. So you can compare that 45 with the 35.

1:15:01That's recorded in the official plan policy.

1:15:04Thank you. One more follow up.

1:15:06Another aspect that I was thinking about was the fact that repair shops, it sounded like repair shops and repair suppliers or to that nature were allowed in the industrial space.

1:15:17But for some reason we came to the conclusion that Princess Repair, Princess auto didn't fall into that type of use.

1:15:23I'm going to follow that up with staff because it sounds very similar to our York Road corridor in the East End where we have service commercial designations and there's auto repair and auto repair suppliers all through that corridor.

1:15:36I just want to give you an opportunity to sort of talk about the practicality of your support to industrial lands, perhaps not perfectly fitting into a industrial manufacturer, but you are in fact supporting industrial uses.

1:15:52Right. So, so that's exactly right. So that's why I brought in the example, the actual fact that 70% of the Princess auto sales, right, are business oriented, only 30% are retail.

1:16:08Basically the 30% is for home consumption or home use. Right. So the 70% basically goes to trades people, mechanics, whatever they use the parts or whatever they purchase for their manufacturing process or their shops.

1:16:25And basically what what it's being set up is is is is basically an employment supportive use for the the area that is on the Northwest part of Guelph.

1:16:41Now it's not only that area, but it's also the surrounding areas, such as farmers that require material. And what is also happening when you when we get down to the real research, you're getting quite a bit of outflow going to the Kitchener market from from Guelph that shop at these princess autos that the princess auto shop in in in Kitchener.

1:17:04So, not only are you getting the golf going to Kitchener, you're also getting the surrounding area individuals going to Kitchener instead of obviously spending their money in Guelph.

1:17:14Right.

1:17:15I appreciate it. Thank you.

1:17:17Thank you. Is there anything more? Yes.

1:17:20Okay, Councillor Billings.

1:17:22Councillor

1:17:24Okay, so through you, Mr Mayor, I just wanted to to ask on attachment nine in the report.

1:17:31City staff have issues and concerns. And with respect to engineering the functional servicing reports stormwater management.

1:17:41And I was just wondering, do you believe if these issues and concerns can be addressed the concerns that staff have pointed out in the report.

1:17:51Through you, Mr Mayor, all those issues are related to site plan approval issues. And we've we've looked at them. We've talked to engineers and architects. They can.

1:18:00They can be resolved and will be resolved.

1:18:03Okay, thank you for that. And then also back to the 70% sales non home use.

1:18:09So within that 70% you do cater to industrial workers.

1:18:15So my question is, you do sell some major equipment for the industrial workers. Like, can you give me an example for example, like concrete mixers, like.

1:18:26What, what major equipment would you be selling for the industrial workers?

1:18:32Yeah, so, yeah, so Brad, would you.

1:18:36Yeah, I think I could speak to that as being a part of manufacturing and purchasing items from that facility.

1:18:44They offer things like hydraulic pumps, cylinders, tools, air compressors, trailer components, even in the automotive area, this, you know, tires, rims, axles, springs, brakes into the paints, paint, booze, sandblasters.

1:19:05So on. So you do supply you some major equipment. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Thank you for that. That's all Mr. Mayor.

1:19:15All right. Thank you, Councillor Billings.

1:19:17So I just have one question just to stop the questions after me. I just want to make sure I understood something that you said about the parking.

1:19:25So, you know, what we have in front of us here today is obviously a staff position, which we respect of the, of not wanting to recommend for the reasons that they laid out.

1:19:36Sure. But in the public report, staff actually offered an approval motions for us to consider.

1:19:43Right. Within those approval motions that may be tabled. Do they address your parking issue that you brought up?

1:19:54No, because we just seen this parking issue a few days ago. Actually, when the staff report was issued, we didn't, we had no prior knowledge of this.

1:20:04Our request was for four, excuse me, for five spaces per 100 square meters. Okay.

1:20:10Then we found out that staff recommended the three per 100 meters, went back to, to, to Sissato, and they were able to provide us a list of their Ontario stores.

1:20:25And, uh, square footage, number of parking, and their ratios are all above four and a half per 100, per 100 square meters.

1:20:35So, um, so I will, I will ask staff a little bit about that just in a moment, but, um, is that, is that a big deal?

1:20:46I believe that it is being here long enough to understand those ratios and the build out

1:20:52that would be required.

1:20:53So I believe it's a big deal, but I just I need to understand from you guys if that is

1:20:58a big deal as well.

1:21:00And the reason why is because if we do table motions to consider to approve this, we need

1:21:06to understand if we need to look to try to also capture those changes in the parking ratios

1:21:11within the approval motions that we might be tabling.

1:21:14So I just need to understand, you know, the friction there that you have if it's make it

1:21:19or break it moment.

1:21:20I can speak to that, Mayor.

1:21:23So in conversation when this was brought up in this report, I addressed it with Princess

1:21:29Auto and they haven't taken any I asked them if they had any concessions in any other

1:21:34other facilities in any of the other cities and they said no, only one that they know

1:21:40of and it was in Quebec and they've struggled with the lower number, which is in around

1:21:45four spots.

1:21:49And they were very adamant that it's needed for their seasonals and their ebbs and flows

1:21:55of sales sales days.

1:21:59Thank you.

1:22:00I appreciate the clarity.

1:22:02That's important for us to know what we might have to table if we if we go there.

1:22:06So thank you very much.

1:22:08Is there anything further?

1:22:09No.

1:22:10Thank you very much for coming down.

1:22:13And I'll just now put the phone number up on the screen just in case someone else wants

1:22:17to call in and give their opinion on the matter.

1:22:20And I'll just deal the number out loud.

1:22:22It's 519-837-5603.

1:22:27So again, we'll just wait three, four minutes.

1:22:29Okay.

1:22:30Until we see if anyone calls in.

1:22:32Thank you.

1:25:15Thank you.

1:25:16And no one's called in, right?

1:25:17So we're good.

1:25:18Okay.

1:25:19So I'll call the meeting back to order here.

1:25:22Okay.

1:25:23So as is sort of our regular process, I'll ask to see if there's a member of council

1:25:28that would be willing to move the staff recommendation to be tabled.

1:25:33So Kate and we'll move that.

1:25:36Does someone want a second alt?

1:25:38Kate and alt will move in second.

1:25:41So this is a motion then to to refuse.

1:25:45Okay.

1:25:46The application.

1:25:47Is there any questions before I call the vote?

1:25:49Alt, please.

1:25:53Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor.

1:25:57Just through you two staff, the question that I have is whether one of the principal

1:26:03objections that you might have to this is precedent and the lack of conformity or consistency

1:26:12with zoning and planning it.

1:26:16And by way of that, how out of sync is this?

1:26:20Through the mayor and the council, there are alt.

1:26:25So staff's concern is that the proposal does not conform with the provincial policy statement

1:26:29passed by the provincial government as well as staff's official plan policies.

1:26:35So in staff's opinion, the use is fine if it was located in a service commercial area,

1:26:40but because this is in employment lands, specifically industrial employment lands, staff think that

1:26:45this is inappropriate and inappropriate use.

1:26:48Quick follow up.

1:26:49I appreciate that.

1:26:52It then gets back to how far out of sync actually is that with the issue of employment lands.

1:26:59Is there a nuance to it or is it significant?

1:27:02Through the mayor and council, all so when the provincial planning statement came into

1:27:10effect, they added a new definition for employment lands.

1:27:14So as the applicant appropriately noted, when we did our employment lands need assessment,

1:27:20we had a different lens.

1:27:22The definition of employment land came through after that, which was a 2022-2023 report.

1:27:28And the definition of employment does now exclude institutional and commercial uses,

1:27:35including retail and office.

1:27:37So that is why you have the recommendation in front of you this evening that staff feel

1:27:42this is a retail use and the province did change the definition to employment lands

1:27:47since ROP was approved.

1:27:49And thank you very much.

1:27:50Last question then.

1:27:52So if this application came before us in 2021, would we have a different perspective from

1:27:58staff?

1:28:01Through the mayor and council, I can only comment on the policies that I have in front of me

1:28:04at the time.

1:28:06I guess that's a good answer.

1:28:08I was hoping for more.

1:28:09Thank you.

1:28:14Okay.

1:28:15I'll go to Gibson and then Kate and then looks like I can call the vote.

1:28:20Thank you.

1:28:21Thank you, Mayor.

1:28:22And this is a, that's a good segue to my question that I gave to the delegate.

1:28:26I'll just use that example in the East End on York Road service commercial, I believe

1:28:31is the zoning, but we do have a lot of repair shops and industrial suppliers.

1:28:39Here we have industrial only, but I heard that we could have repair shops in there,

1:28:45but this doesn't seem to qualify.

1:28:47You gave the context in your previous answer, but can you just help me understand like that

1:28:54the, I'm seeing a real gray area here, but I need to hear from staff why they don't believe

1:29:00it's so cut and dry or though I believe it is cut and dry.

1:29:07Through you, Mr. Mayor to Councillor Gibson.

1:29:09So the definition of repair and servicing establishment in the official plan is different

1:29:13from the definition of a vehicle repair establishment.

1:29:16So a vehicle repair establishment use is not permitted within the industrial zone, but

1:29:20is permitted in the service commercial zone or designation rather.

1:29:24Thank you.

1:29:25So repair, this company seems to be supplying repair parts.

1:29:31So that's still not considered an industrial process.

1:29:36Like if I'm selling components that are for the purposes of repairing industrial equipment,

1:29:43can I not be considered an industrial supplier?

1:29:48Through the mayor again to Councillor Gibson.

1:29:50So the repair and servicing establishment definition would be for a business that does

1:29:54the actual repairing and servicing on the site, not for a business that supplies equipment

1:30:00to such an establishment.

1:30:02Okay.

1:30:03I do appreciate staff's clarity on this.

1:30:05I still, I personally see this a large gray area here, but I do appreciate the answers.

1:30:10Thank you.

1:30:12Thank you.

1:30:13And then just a follow up with a busitil.

1:30:17Thank you.

1:30:18Through you, Mr. Mayor.

1:30:20Do we have enough commercial space that is vacant that Princess Otto could start up their

1:30:28company somewhere else in a different location than Guelph?

1:30:31Through the mayor to Councillor Caton.

1:30:36I don't have specific numbers on the amount of vacant commercial lands, but I know there

1:30:40are vacant commercial lands spread throughout the city.

1:30:43I can name a few new locations if you would like, but suffice to say there are vacant

1:30:47commercial lands available that would permit a use such as a Princess Otto as a threat.

1:30:55Thank you.

1:30:56And do we have an average of the wages that are made usually in industrial lands versus

1:31:03retail?

1:31:06Yeah.

1:31:07Through the mayor, I'll have to say that the planning staff would not have that information

1:31:11available and would not look at it as part of a land use application.

1:31:16Thank you.

1:31:17Thank you.

1:31:19And final question through the mayor to staff.

1:31:25With the new tariff responses that we're doing and the increased manufacturing and research

1:31:34and development that we're trying to kind of create within Guelph, what would converting

1:31:42this to a retail use due to our availability for new manufacturing?

1:31:54Through the mayor to Councillor Caton.

1:31:57So again, I think we just from planning staff, we have to go back to the definition of an

1:32:01employment and it would reduce lands that were pure employment if this, you know, as

1:32:07staff would consider this a retail operation.

1:32:12Thank you.

1:32:15Thank you.

1:32:16We'll then just come into a comment from alt before we call the vote.

1:32:20Okay.

1:32:21Sorry, class, do I see your hand too?

1:32:23Yep.

1:32:24Okay.

1:32:25Don't worry.

1:32:26I'll go to you as well.

1:32:27Okay.

1:32:28Thank you.

1:32:29And through the mayor, thank you.

1:32:30I don't have an issue at all with the definition of the type of industry or the site, but I

1:32:34did have a question.

1:32:35I wanted a little bit better clarification on the parking conversation.

1:32:40If you can help me understand that, please.

1:32:42Sure.

1:32:43Through the mayor to Councillor Busuttil.

1:32:46So the recommendation from staff is if, if Council were to approve it, this application

1:32:52that they would approve it with a parking rate of three spaces per 100 square metres,

1:32:56which is in line with retail uses throughout the city.

1:33:00And that would be a minimum parking rate.

1:33:02There is no maximum parking rate.

1:33:04So if Princess Otto wanted to provide five spaces or six spaces, they could do so.

1:33:11Thank you.

1:33:12Go ahead.

1:33:15Councillor Oltway, you should have a quick comment.

1:33:17Then I'll go to Claesden.

1:33:18Just a comment with apologies to staff.

1:33:23I put the motion, I seconded the motion because I believe that proper protocol should be that

1:33:28if a motion appears before us on the order paper that it should be put forward on the

1:33:33agenda before anything else is considered.

1:33:35However, I think that we have staff in between a rock and a hard place on this, that two,

1:33:40three years ago, it is my conjecture without any evidence of this at all that possibly staff

1:33:47might have had a different perspective on this.

1:33:49I don't know about that.

1:33:50I just have to read between the lines.

1:33:52The irony of this is that this Looney-Left Council has often been told that we run contrary

1:34:01to the provincial government.

1:34:03And here we're going to run contrary to the provincial government in order, possibly,

1:34:08if we reject the staff recommendation to support a business coming into Guelph.

1:34:13And I think it would behoove us well to do that and show that we're not a Looney-Left

1:34:19Council.

1:34:20We're a council that is looking at the best interest at Guelph.

1:34:23I can't wait for comments.

1:34:32No, I was just kidding.

1:34:33I'm totally kidding.

1:34:34Councillor Claesden, bring us home there.

1:34:37Go ahead.

1:34:38Councillor Lutzen will actually ask my question.

1:34:40So.

1:34:41Okay.

1:34:42Sorry, Billings.

1:34:43Did I hear your voice?

1:34:45Yes.

1:34:46Okay.

1:34:47I asked you, Mr. Mayor, to staff, under the existing zoning, as a complementary use, we

1:34:54allow like restaurants, a bank.

1:34:57So with your definition of an employment use, would that still be allowed, a bank or a restaurant?

1:35:03So complementary uses in the zoning bylaw are only permitted to a certain size, as well

1:35:12a complementary use has to be complementary to an existing permitted use on that property.

1:35:17There is no other existing permitted use proposed for this land.

1:35:22I know, but if it was a restaurant that was asking for approval, then you're saying as

1:35:29a complementary use, you would not approve a bank or a restaurant?

1:35:40Through the Mayor to Councillor Billings.

1:35:43If it was a permitted use as a complementary use, then it would be permitted in association

1:35:47with a permitted use.

1:35:50That would be the primary use on that site.

1:35:52So if it was standalone, then no staff would not support it.

1:35:56Okay.

1:35:57Well, Mr. Mayor, I will not be supportive of this motion on the floor.

1:36:06Okay.

1:36:07Thank you.

1:36:08Okay.

1:36:11So the staff recommendation has been tabled.

1:36:14There's two parts to the motion.

1:36:16Okay.

1:36:17I'm going to split them because the first one is just to receive the application.

1:36:23That's fine.

1:36:24I think everyone's nodding their head.

1:36:26We've got to receive the application.

1:36:28The second motion is to refuse.

1:36:32So just to be very clear, for my members of council with me here, if you vote in favour

1:36:39of that motion, that means you're agreeing with staff that we should refuse.

1:36:42Vote against means obviously you're against that recommendation.

1:36:47So with my chance to give an opinion to me, this is an elbows up moment for our city.

1:36:55We draped ourselves in the flag a couple months ago here to say go Canadian, pro-Canadian,

1:37:02buy Canadian, support Canadian.

1:37:04We have a Canadian company that has come to our city and wants to put millions of dollars

1:37:10into a build on a piece of land that's been sitting there for a very long time in a zone

1:37:16that I believe is very complementary to exactly what they need to do.

1:37:21To me, this is reputational for the city.

1:37:24Are we open for business?

1:37:25Are we actually going to try to help with these types of people and businesses that

1:37:30want to come here and create jobs?

1:37:33All jobs are important.

1:37:35And so I think that, I think, you know, in my view, we definitely should not support

1:37:40the staff recommendation.

1:37:42And I say that respectfully.

1:37:43I've talked to you prior.

1:37:44You know, I say that very respectfully.

1:37:48And that we should look to pass a motion after this if it's refused of approval.

1:37:53And I'll just leave the comments at that.

1:37:55So I hope this, as I said, is an elbows up moment for us.

1:38:00I'll call the vote on number one, which is just to receive the application.

1:38:04Is anyone against just receiving it?

1:38:08No one.

1:38:09That's unanimous.

1:38:10And then I'll call the vote on number two, which is to refuse.

1:38:14So if anyone is against that, please raise your hand.

1:38:19OK.

1:38:21So it's probably easier if I just say the one person that's against, which would

1:38:27be in favour of that would be Councillor Caton.

1:38:30So everyone else is in favour to refuse.

1:38:33OK, so that fails technically.

1:38:36And so Councillor Goller is going to move a motion, which would be to approve.

1:38:43I'll give the floor to you.

1:38:45Thank you, Worship.

1:38:47Through you, I'd like to move a motion to approve the application subject to

1:38:51attachments five and six of this document.

1:38:56If I may have a second there.

1:38:59Yes, class.

1:38:59Yes.

1:39:00Yes.

1:39:02Billings.

1:39:03OK, Bill.

1:39:05There we go.

1:39:05OK, Billings, Clawson, all that.

1:39:07Lots of people had their hands up here.

1:39:09So thank you.

1:39:10Go continue.

1:39:11You still have the floor.

1:39:13Thank you, Worship.

1:39:13And I wanted to thank staff for doing the work to prepare both of these options

1:39:18for us.

1:39:20And I just wanted to point us to the provisions in the package.

1:39:28With this motion, we would be authorizing this build by making the necessary

1:39:33changes to our zoning bylaw and to our official plan.

1:39:36I did have a question of staff, if I could.

1:39:40Yeah, thank you.

1:39:40And I believe this was asked previously.

1:39:43I just wanted to ask one more time in attachment six.

1:39:48It talks about parking, parking minimums.

1:39:50Just wanted to be a hundred percent.

1:39:52If they want to go ahead and have seven parking spots per, would that be allowed?

1:39:58If they want to go above the minimum that's listed there?

1:40:01Through the mayor to Councillor Gollard, that is correct.

1:40:03Yes.

1:40:05Thank you very much.

1:40:06Thank you, Worship.

1:40:07With that, is there anything further before I call the vote to approve?

1:40:11Nothing further.

1:40:12Okay.

1:40:12I will call the vote then.

1:40:15Is anyone against the approval?

1:40:17Okay.

1:40:19Just Councillor Caton.

1:40:22Okay.

1:40:23That means it has passed.

1:40:25And looking to staff, is there anything more you need to get this project going from us?

1:40:31No.

1:40:32Great.

1:40:32Congratulations.

1:40:33Thank you for coming and look forward to seeing a shovel on the ground and jobs.

1:40:39So thank you.

1:40:40So thank you.

1:40:42With that, we're going to keep moving along for the next item, which is five Queen Street.

1:40:51This is a notice of intention to designate.

1:40:54We have one delegation, which is Meg Thornburn.

1:40:57This Meg here.

1:40:58Hello.

1:41:18Hi Meg.

1:41:19How are you?

1:41:20Good.

1:41:21Good.

1:41:21Thank you very much for waiting and welcome.

1:41:24And you have, so this is a bit different now.

1:41:26You have up to five minutes, not the 10.

1:41:28Okay.

1:41:29So you'll hear a chime at the four minutes and 30 second mark giving you the 32nd warning.

1:41:33So don't get there because your mic gets turned off.

1:41:35Okay.

1:41:36And not at four 30 at five.

1:41:37No, at five.

1:41:38At five.

1:41:38Yeah.

1:41:39And then, and then just stick around just in case any of my colleagues or myself have a question for you when you're done.

1:41:44Okay.

1:41:44So the timer will start whenever you're ready.

1:41:46Go right ahead.

1:41:48Mr. Mayor and Chancellor's, thank you for this opportunity to speak.

1:41:51I hope you have found time to read the letter I submitted.

1:41:55My husband and I do not support this unsolicited designation of our home.

1:41:59However, we do strongly support heritage.

1:42:02As anyone aware of the meticulous work we have done to restore our previously derelict home will know we have devoted ourselves to the restoration project.

1:42:10We call home, but due to budgetary constraints and our high standards, we have done almost all of the thousands of hours of work ourselves.

1:42:19And it's still going on.

1:42:21You should know we have collaborated with heritage glove previously.

1:42:24And staff has commended us on the extensive careful and thoughtful work we have undertaken as stewards of this property.

1:42:32So frankly, it was a shock to receive the unsolicited designation letter and the extremely tight timeframe it forced upon us.

1:42:39We are definitely not an at risk property.

1:42:42We had no warning, no prior opportunity to consult, discuss or negotiate.

1:42:47The process has been rushed and staff has not provided us with important information.

1:42:51We were not notified in time to delegate at heritage Guelph.

1:42:55We were not informed that we would be subjected to the enhanced property bylaw standards.

1:42:59Staff did not offer to consult us on the heritage elements to be named in the proposed designation, which has been done for other property.

1:43:07Staff did not have some inform us that we have the right to contest the intention to designate or to appeal to council if it votes to issue the notice.

1:43:15Nor did they ever ask us if we supported or opposed the proposed designation.

1:43:20Staff did not suggest that we consult with our insurance company.

1:43:23We decided on our own that we should.

1:43:26The agent said, and I quote, we do not ensure individually designated heritage properties and further explain that the company makes no exceptions.

1:43:35You may argue that this is wrong or shouldn't happen, but for us, it is a fact.

1:43:41My husband and I have full time commitments and have been forced to figure out heritage designation with little free time.

1:43:46We were given a few weeks to understand what this designation process entails and to repair our response.

1:43:52Meanwhile, staff has had years to educate the public about designation and reach out to heritage homeowners, but haven't done so.

1:43:59Yes, we understand the time pressure of bill 23, but it does not justify this hasty autocratic process.

1:44:05In staff's letter, they suggest that we contact them about the benefits of designation. So we did.

1:44:11They admitted that, in fact, there are none other than a plaque.

1:44:15How is that possible when many other municipalities in southern Ontario offer incentives to the owners of designated properties, such as property tax breaks and home restoration improvement grants?

1:44:25Why has this not been a priority for heritage staff?

1:44:28For responsible, dedicated and long term homeowners, heritage designations can add unnecessary oversight delays and expense.

1:44:37Add to that no incentives and it's very clear why there has been little uptake of voluntary designation.

1:44:44We also feel that the selection process for this forced designation has possibly been inequitable or just not transparent.

1:44:50Staff prepared a list of 50 properties for 2024 Part 4 designation priorities, which was reiterated in the 2025 designation strategy.

1:44:59Our home was not on the 2024 list, but three well appointed and restored properties further up Queen Street were.

1:45:06These properties have not been brought forward for designation, even though staff has had a year longer to do so.

1:45:12Have they received non voluntary designation letters? If not, why not? And if yes, why have we been moved ahead of them?

1:45:18We are not arguing that our home does not qualify for designation. It does.

1:45:24And indeed, we considers ourselves merely the current curators of the special home and understand staff's concern that possible future owners in spite of our efforts may not share our values.

1:45:35But that can be said of any heritage property. Why rush to designate us ahead of at risk properties and properties whose restorations are complete.

1:45:44We have clearly demonstrated our commitment and dedication to restoring and maintaining our home true to its heritage.

1:45:51And we have no intention to sell the house in the next 15 years.

1:45:55But we are not finished with the restoration we so painstakingly began 30 years ago.

1:46:01And we do not want our progress to be hindered by increased paperwork delays oversight people with probably less hands on experience than us and possibly increased expenses.

1:46:13Does the city not want to see our work completed?

1:46:17There are proven flaws and possible inequities in this process in the process we have experienced after discussion with our lawyer. We propose this.

1:46:26Pause our designation and give us time to finish our restoration.

1:46:31This will give staff time to come up with incentives for dedicated property owners like ourselves.

1:46:35We would then be happy to voluntarily designate our home provided we can find insurance until then improve the process and please focus on the at risk and fully restored properties. Thank you.

1:46:49Wow, that was perfect timing. So well done. Thank you very much for your delegation. Let me see if I have a follow up.

1:46:57I'll start with Karan and then Gowler. I see several hands. I'll just start with Karan and Gowler. I'll start a list. Go ahead.

1:47:04Great. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And thank you for your delegation.

1:47:08I also want to recognize the incredible work that you and Lorenz have done over the past three decades.

1:47:13In my notes, I put two decades. It has been three decades and I remember some of that work when I was, when I was chairing Heritage Gualt before I was a city councillor.

1:47:22So it is truly remarkable the care and attention to detail that you've given to your property. So I do want to acknowledge that that publicly.

1:47:30I do have a few questions though, because you did mention in your delegation that Guelph, you know, does not provide benefits to designated properties like other communities do. And I just wondered if you had some examples of what those benefits might be.

1:47:46Yes, I actually have a list because I was hoping somebody would ask that. I mean, it's a very extensive list, but just as a few examples, I think the one people look to most is Peterborough, which has a heritage property tax relief program of 40%, which is the maximum allowed by the province.

1:48:02And they've been doing this for decades and it's been very, very, very successful in enticing home owners to voluntarily designate their properties.

1:48:12So much so that there's been a couple of academic papers done on it to then look at the spin off benefits to the community of Peterborough due to all these voluntary heritage designations.

1:48:24Neighboring communities, Kitchener has a heritage grant property grant program for conservation, restoration and reconstruction.

1:48:33Provides access to the Waterloo Regional Heritage Foundation grant and does provide tax refunds up to 40%. Hamilton has heritage property tax rebate of 40% and heritage property grant for conservation in Toronto.

1:48:46And restoration reading it. Toronto has a similarly heritage grant program, heritage tax rebate program.

1:48:53Owens Sound also has a heritage property tax relief program and facade and structure grant program. Waterloo, Niagara on the lake, Collingwood also have these kinds of programs, tax rebates and or improvement grants.

1:49:09And I think you need to know in future discussions that few municipalities that provide tax relief relief, it's for the municipal and education portion, but the province funds the educational portion of that problem, property tax relief.

1:49:24Yeah, thanks. That's a comprehensive list. I know Guelph is an outlier in not having that program and we do have it in our in our cultural heritage asset plan, our CHAP, we call it that recommendation was cast by council and lots of reasons why that work has been stalled, but we do have that in the future planning.

1:49:48The other thing you outlined a lot in your presentation is just concerns with with process. What do you feel would need to be different about the process for you to voluntarily designate your home?

1:50:02So a couple things, both improving the process and then what we specifically think that we need. You know, for process, I found the process really disturbing.

1:50:18First off, don't drop the bombshell on on homers, homeowners out of the blue. I mean, we work with them with plenty of lead time.

1:50:28And, you know, give them a chance to negotiate the designate elements. Could we have done that staff never told us.

1:50:34What we got from staff was to contact them if we had any questions, but it's taken us with minimal free time the entire few weeks we've been allowed to even figure out what questions to ask.

1:50:45We I mean, we don't know what we didn't know we didn't give homeowners time to thoroughly understand the applications.

1:50:54And then give them a list of insurance providers and times will work that out.

1:51:02You know, I think the whole process could have been much more transparent and proactive.

1:51:11One thing I found in my research is that many municipalities have developed comprehensive guides to heritage designation for property owners in the municipality on sound as a really nice one.

1:51:20And there were a couple others that I'm not going to recall now that that were very impressive.

1:51:26So those are my general statements about the process. I guess I'd also see, you know, in with the time pranks that priorities given to more at risk properties, and then secondarily properties that aren't in the midst of restoration.

1:51:43So for us personally, as I say, we are quite interested in voluntarily designating down the road.

1:51:52We would want to finish our restorations first.

1:51:56We would like to sit the city to offer some incentives for this.

1:52:02We need to be sure that we can secure new property insurance that we can afford. I'm pretty sure it's out there, but it could take weeks and months to figure that out.

1:52:13And then I just it needs to be more collaborative like why didn't staff talk to us before they wrote the letter, you know, and, and I mean, we're not designation experts. So we didn't even know what questions to ask when we got the letter.

1:52:25I need to feel that this is to trans that there will be a transparent and streamlined permitting process. I don't know much about that.

1:52:38And personally, I need some time to pass to feel comfortable and that the new enhanced property standard by bylaws are and well be applied fairly and within their awareness that some heritage homeowners have budgetary restrictions.

1:52:56Thanks.

1:52:57Two more quick kind of interrelated questions. I feel indulge me, Mr.

1:53:03Like, not yet.

1:53:05Sorry.

1:53:06Yeah.

1:53:08Hopefully this will be a.

1:53:10No, no, not going there. Don't worry. No.

1:53:13It was just to the delegate and just about this property.

1:53:16So notwithstanding everything you've you've said and everything that's in your letter.

1:53:21Do you agree that five Queen Street meets the criteria for part four designation under the yes, I certainly, I certainly wouldn't deny that that so timing is a huge.

1:53:31It's the timing distribution.

1:53:33You know, I wish that there was some way I could sign a letter that was legally binding that I well designated in 10 years.

1:53:41But I don't think there's that.

1:53:42Bill 23, the doors closing. What I know that you see as timing. What do you see as the appropriate timing to bring this back for designation?

1:53:51Well, you finish all of your restorations before bill 23 closes the door on heritage protections for registered properties.

1:53:58I doubt it.

1:54:00But two things.

1:54:02Because again, I'm not an expert.

1:54:04About them next to me.

1:54:06My understanding that for sort of non voluntary designation that can be brought back five years after.

1:54:17The closing of that door.

1:54:19So that's 2032.

1:54:23And I believe that they're not closing the door on voluntary designation.

1:54:29Ever.

1:54:31Right. So, so, you know,

1:54:34My husband has been promising me for.

1:54:3710 years, we would finish the restoration this year.

1:54:42Yeah.

1:54:46But as I say, you know, I, I, I wish I had brought a slideshow of the work. I wish I had brought a slideshow of the work.

1:54:56I mean, there was one summer when we hired his brother and friend who's a teacher and we took it was the summer we dismantled the porch because it was completely rotten when we bought it and it took us, you know, there's more pressing projects, but we finally got around to it.

1:55:12We took the porch off.

1:55:14And, and then there's all sorts of parts were, of course, restoring from that porch.

1:55:19And a lot of them had to be fixed. And then I had to figure out a place from Germany where I could get a blaster heat blaster where I could strip the paint off all the little details that we still have stacked aside to put back up.

1:55:30But so there's no porch. So we start scaffolding because the house hadn't been repointed for a long, long time. And it was way past the point of repointing like it was just sand between between the rocks.

1:55:46Or the stones. And then you have to find this proper quarry to get the proper stones. And so for an entire summer we had scaffolding up the whole side of the house and would move around as we as as they replace the stones and and found the heritage mortar to put it all back together.

1:56:11And so at the time we had a hole in the property that was really bigger than me and Lorenz assured me that that's a large enough, you know, the stones, the rest of the stones could hold it up but it's, it's a slow process.

1:56:25Okay, so the timing is unknown. So, okay, thank you very much.

1:56:30Thank you.

1:56:33So, thank you for your time and making sure we can kind of get through this to to some kind of resolution. Okay, I've got quite a few people here go lower than alt, then gloss and then downer.

1:56:45So, please just get right to the questions. Okay, thank you.

1:56:48Thank you through worship. Thank you for your presentation.

1:56:52You mentioned that I think you had concerns with the enhanced property standards by law.

1:56:57When I asked staff about it, they let me know that they would only be enforcing buildings that are left completely derelict. So can you help me explain your concerns with the by law.

1:57:06Well, the by law was only passed a year ago, the enhanced by law. So we have yet to see how it will be used really.

1:57:14I, I'm sure that current staff have good intentions to use it judiciously to guard against neglect. I trust them, but staff do turn over and who knows what personalities will be in power in the future.

1:57:27Because it is the by law, not the intention of the by law that ultimately rules. And this by law has strict and costly requirements about replacing or repairing heritage elements, which is nearly everything in our house.

1:57:41Okay, that is helpful. Thank you so much. I have a follow up question your worship.

1:57:46You had also mentioned concerns with the increased time and restoration, if it were to be designated. Could you help me understand why it would take more if it was designated to do the restoration work.

1:57:58Yeah, so part for designated properties require a heritage permit. If a renovation affects the named heritage elements, which seems to be almost everything on our house.

1:58:11Even if those rentals wouldn't normally require building permit. So when you're in the midst of a long term restoration that the paperwork increased paperwork alone would be quite time consuming.

1:58:23And while I trust the heritage staff will process such permits.

1:58:27Relatively quickly, some of them may require consultation with heritages, Guelph, which meets and frequently as well as the manager of building and planning services and even counsel sometimes.

1:58:38And we're also just worried again, you know, we've been thrown into this line. We're a little concerned about restrictions and increased policing. So I was watching the heritage wealth meeting that I didn't get to designate that.

1:58:52And one of the things Jack Malone said in the discussion about Alan's mill bridge is that mechanistically the purpose of heritage designation is to compel property owners to do certain things with their property.

1:59:04Now, I think this was used as a justification to not designate Alan's mill bridge.

1:59:11But that statement just sounds extremely intimidated to regular property owners, you know, what are we getting into.

1:59:18And I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your presentation on from your letters. Thank you, worship. Thank you all to then Cossin.

1:59:26Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor through you to the delegate. Miss Thorburn. I do want to thank you very much for your presentation. I've actually learned more in the last 15 minutes about heritage designation and I probably have learned in all of my life.

1:59:43But that leads to a number of other questions.

1:59:47Just because you have talked about yourselves as current curators and your restoration not being complete. And I don't know if you can answer this or not. But what do you need to do?

2:00:00There is, I wish Lorenz was here for that, but there's still quite a bit of work on the porch at the main structure is up, but you know, there's all the the knickknacks he hasn't finished the wiring.

2:00:19Yeah, he would have to answer that, but I think there's probably a lot of painting to do.

2:00:26There's gutters to put up all sorts of things. Heritage designation at this point would constrain those efforts.

2:00:34Well, the gutters, for instance, require a permit.

2:00:39So I know I suspect they would get done, but I wish Lorenz was here to answer this. He's concerned because he's the one who's building everything.

2:00:48Okay, I'm going to switch gears to incentives were raised through questions and answers with Councillor Caron.

2:00:58And from what I've heard you said, I think you've been working on this for 30 years.

2:01:03Are you asking for incentives? Is that what you're looking for? Or are you just frustrated that you're not finding what you need?

2:01:13I think it would really help.

2:01:18But heritage owners get on board if there were incentives, it would not be an absolute reason for us not to not to designate.

2:01:29But it is surprising that there aren't any incentives and it would be much more palatable if if there were.

2:01:38Okay, I have two last questions. You'd made reference to insurance providers and respecting respectfully possibly a list of insurance providers.

2:01:49That leads me to a question. My house is not on the heritage list, but it is a very old house and I was refused insurance because it's too old.

2:01:59I was wondering, like you were refused. Are there other people that you are aware of who are very clearly being refused or being told that something will happen to their insurance?

2:02:09I have certainly read a number of sort of case reports about that. I don't personally.

2:02:17I don't kind of don't have a Facebook. We've been designated group to ask that question to.

2:02:24But I've certainly, it's very conflicting information when you go on the web.

2:02:31But there are certainly, you know, I recently read an article in Cabbage Town, which is actually a designated district.

2:02:39So it's not even type four. It's type five designation, which is quite a bit more lenient that a number of the homeowners in the Cabbage Town have suddenly had their insurance.

2:02:53Just to follow up to that. And then one last question on Ontario dot C a statement is made with regards to property insurance premiums.

2:03:01Insurance premiums should not go up because of a heritage designation. I'm wrestling with that because it says it should not go up.

2:03:10Are you aware of insurance premiums going up because of heritage designations?

2:03:17Again, all I could say is that our insurance provider explicitly stated to me that his company doesn't ensure heritage designated homes.

2:03:28And I'm asking why it's up to me to have to solve that problem. Why am I not being given a list of companies that well ensure heritage designation homes that are over 150 years old for reasonable premium.

2:03:49It was very difficult as you're finding for us to find insurer for our old house 30 years ago, even without heritage designation.

2:03:59So I just started to think how much time and effort. I'm really almost less worried about the cost of it than the time. I don't have a lot of time.

2:04:08And if we're forced to designate the property might not be insured for a period of time while we search for a new provider.

2:04:16Again, this force process has been very rushed. And had we not done our research and were we designated, we would suddenly normally had no insurance coverage.

2:04:25And then what, you know, how much does that protect a precious, you know, a designated property if it's uninsured.

2:04:34And certainly one thing I'd say is that most of us with homes like this can no longer afford full replacement coverage.

2:04:42That's an interesting point.

2:04:45Oh, yeah, no, that's that's that's a fact.

2:04:48Just just with regards to last question, somewhat unrelated, but as I said, I've learned an awful lot today.

2:04:55What should we as a city do to address your concerns regarding being informed being informed and learning about heritage designation?

2:05:03What would you like to see because sounds like you didn't receive notice in what you consider to be an appropriate time and so on?

2:05:11What more? What do you want from us?

2:05:13Well, I've heard of I would like to be able.

2:05:16Oh, sorry, I didn't I didn't hear the answer or maybe maybe you need to expand upon.

2:05:21I think Councillor Kerron, that was the first question out of Councillor Kerron's mouth.

2:05:24If I recall what you would like to see is it I believe you answered that question already. Do you need to repeat that for Councillor Alton?

2:05:30No, that's okay. Okay.

2:05:33And thank you very much for illuminating me.

2:05:38Great. Thank you.

2:05:39Councillor Klassen and then I have Downer.

2:05:44Yes, thank you through you, Mr. Mayor, to the delegate just thank you for for delegating today and actually Councillor Kerron answered my question.

2:05:53So I'm not going to further elaborate.

2:05:56Okay, thank you. Downer, please.

2:05:59Thank you. Thank you.

2:06:01So I you may not be able to answer this because you already referred to that.

2:06:05Lorenz would maybe be the best one, but there's eight items that are heritage attributes.

2:06:11So it's not everything that's that's designated at C's attributes in the report.

2:06:17They've listed the eight of them.

2:06:19What is the restoration that you have left to do because it's it sounds like you've done like the limestone exterior walls.

2:06:27I mean, the porch, you've got something to finish, but you're already talking to staff about that.

2:06:35The the central gable barge board, the hip roof and central gable. Are you planning to change all those things like that?

2:06:43So the rest of these are the things that are designated that that you would have to consult on.

2:06:49So I'm just trying to think like, is there really anything left in your restoration?

2:06:53That's not that's that's not already like that you're going to be doing these types of work and changing them drastically.

2:07:00I don't understand.

2:07:04Well, who were involved very involved when we made did the building permit was 10 years ago.

2:07:15And again, Lorenz does all of this work, but there is still some significant work left to do on the porch, as well as we have a window we're planning to turn into a door we've already started that process.

2:07:37You know, so the exterior walls are all in there and and there are, I mean, I can promise any changes we do.

2:07:49Well, well be true to heritage.

2:07:53And yet, but you've been consulting with heritage.

2:07:57We did have anyway, right. So, for all this work for the porch, for the porch, for the porch.

2:08:06But if you were turning a window into a door, you'd need a building permit anyway, and that would automatically trigger heritage review. Would it not not?

2:08:17You're not designated.

2:08:20Well, I think I think yes, I think even if you're not designated if you're turning a window into a door, you'd still need a permit.

2:08:27Oh, you need a building permit. Yes. But that doesn't involve her as well.

2:08:32I think it might if it was that might get wood. So, Jack's not going to say. Yeah, I think it would in that case, but anyway, okay.

2:08:41I'm not suggesting there's going to keep us from doing things, but I just think there's still going to be a lot of paperwork. And I don't.

2:08:50I understand about the bill, but I just don't understand the rush with our house. Okay. Thanks.

2:09:01Okay. Thank you, counselor downer.

2:09:05At this time I have nothing further. I'm just going to go to.

2:09:14Yeah, I would, I would think that this would be so they get the right to make it the recommendations at least thrown on the floor and then I can go to you counselor. If you want to do that.

2:09:24Yes. Oh, sorry.

2:09:27Yes. How are you? Yes, I am. Thank you very much. I'm so sorry. Thank you very much for staying with us and giving us your thoughts. We appreciate it.

2:09:39So, would someone be willing to just at least move the recommendations to designate as described in the busitil and does anybody else wants to.

2:09:48Yeah, thanks for on thank you, Um, is there any questions? We just need to ask a staff before anything further.

2:09:54Okay ga despair.

2:09:58Yes. For you. Mr Mayor to Jack, Um, this whole insurance issue, do we have insurance nor insurance companies that I mean we have a lot of designated properties in Gulen in Ontario.

2:10:15that, like what, can you just sort of elucidate this issue

2:10:19around insurance for us?

2:10:24Thank you, through the mayor to Councillor Downer.

2:10:28The issue with ensuring designated properties,

2:10:32it was an issue when I worked at the city of Ottawa.

2:10:35Since I've been working at the city of Gualph,

2:10:37I've only had one conversation with an owner

2:10:40of a designated property that has expressed

2:10:44problems with insurance.

2:10:47However, staff are currently working on compiling a list

2:10:51of insurance companies that may be friendly

2:10:54to designated properties.

2:10:56We can't know for certain,

2:10:58but we're working on creating resources for property owners

2:11:01that may be struggling with this.

2:11:07And are you, I don't know, that wasn't aware,

2:11:11but like you know the building fairly well,

2:11:14this list of heritage attributes are,

2:11:17well maybe you don't know this.

2:11:19I'm just wondering like, do you know,

2:11:20are they during restoration on those in your discussions

2:11:24with the applicant's spouse?

2:11:32I'm not aware of any ongoing discussions about these other

2:11:37discussions or renovations to any of the listed attributes

2:11:40where the attributes as listed.

2:11:42Okay.

2:11:43Well, aside from the ongoing work on the porch.

2:11:46Aside from the ongoing work on the porch.

2:11:50Okay, I think that was,

2:11:53my only question.

2:11:56Councillor Caron, please.

2:11:57Thank you.

2:11:58I want to follow up on the question of timing

2:12:02because I am torn.

2:12:04As you all know, I'm huge proponent of designation

2:12:07to protect our cultural heritage assets.

2:12:09I like our designations to be voluntary.

2:12:12That's always a better approach.

2:12:16If we were to defer this for say three to six months

2:12:21to allow the owner time to put insurance into place,

2:12:29though to kind of clear up some of the details

2:12:31that the timing has caused.

2:12:33Would staff have any concerns about a six month deferral

2:12:37to sort out some of the details?

2:12:44Through the mayor to the counselor,

2:12:46we would support deferral and continue to work

2:12:48with this applicant to address some of the concerns

2:12:50that were raised today and talk about the elements

2:12:52that were put forward.

2:12:54I think based on what we heard from the applicant

2:12:57or the property owner today,

2:12:58I don't think I'd prefer to put a timeline on it,

2:13:01but continue to work with them to support designation

2:13:05as we go forward.

2:13:06Okay.

2:13:08That's great.

2:13:09I'll compose something and get it to clerks

2:13:11because I do think we want to proceed with designation.

2:13:15We want it on the floor and we want emotion here tonight

2:13:17saying that we intend to designate this property.

2:13:20It absolutely meets the criteria.

2:13:22I think we all would like to see them placed

2:13:24before the window of bill 23 and losing the register happens.

2:13:29But I think it sends a good message to the community

2:13:31as we're working with property owners

2:13:33that we can have those discussions in the interim.

2:13:37So before I put a motion to defer,

2:13:42I would also like to ask a question

2:13:44about the timing of our heritage property tax relief program.

2:13:48I know we've been talking about it for probably two decades,

2:13:52ever since the Ontario Heritage Act was amended in 2004

2:13:56to allow tax relief programs.

2:13:58We've been talking about it in Guelph.

2:13:59It's part of our chat.

2:14:00There's already a motion on the floor.

2:14:02Do you need direction from council to modify a work plan

2:14:06or to get resources in place to bring it forward

2:14:08for the 2026 budget?

2:14:10If you'd like motion and direction from council,

2:14:13just let us know.

2:14:16So through the marriage to the counselor.

2:14:18So the motion that we have,

2:14:20it's tied right now to the word West Heritage District,

2:14:23which is coming up very shortly this evening.

2:14:26Yes.

2:14:27And so well, tonight's the boundary,

2:14:28but then as part of that,

2:14:30there would be a recommendation regarding incentives,

2:14:31but it would not be part of the 2026 budget.

2:14:36So if council wants to consider something in advance

2:14:38of the 2026 budget,

2:14:39you could do that at budget deliberation time,

2:14:43but it would not be that based on the timing

2:14:46of the word West,

2:14:47it would probably be for the consideration

2:14:49for the 2028 budget period.

2:14:51Okay. I'll work with staff on that,

2:14:53because I do think if you need resources to do that,

2:14:56it's a conversation we've had numerous times

2:14:58in the community.

2:14:59And considering the agenda tonight

2:15:01that we're ramping up our designation.

2:15:03So for the course of the next year,

2:15:05as we close that window on the expiry of the register,

2:15:09I think that property tax relief program

2:15:11will be highly desirable.

2:15:14So I'll work with staff on that.

2:15:15For tonight, I think I'd like to defer

2:15:17this notice of intent to designate,

2:15:19to allow time for staff to work with the property owner

2:15:22to sort out some of the details related to insurance

2:15:24and renovations that are currently underway.

2:15:27If there's a seconder, do you need a long?

2:15:29The councillor will second.

2:15:31Clerk, so do you want to raise that out

2:15:33or it's just a...

2:15:34They can handle that one.

2:15:38And as our staff said, there was no timeframe around it.

2:15:41We'll work with the property owner.

2:15:45So there's no debate and no further discussion

2:15:49once the deferral motion is tabled.

2:15:52So all the best to staff and to yourself.

2:15:55Thank you for coming here.

2:15:57If anyone against the deferral motion?

2:16:03Nobody, so that passes.

2:16:04So it's a deferred, okay?

2:16:06Do you understand?

2:16:07Yeah?

2:16:09Okay, you talked to them.

2:16:11It means we didn't make a decision.

2:16:13It means we deferred a decision

2:16:15so that you and staff can kind of work together

2:16:17over the next little while to figure out next steps, okay?

2:16:21Okay, perfect.

2:16:25We are on to...

2:16:28Oh yeah, the Horde West Heritage Conservation.

2:16:31You know what, we're gonna do a five minute break.

2:16:34Okay?

2:16:36Yeah, we'll be back here in five, six minutes, tops.

2:16:39Okay, thank you.

2:24:46Okay, this is a 30 second warning.

2:25:13All right, I'll call the meeting back to order here.

2:25:18Okay, we just have quorum.

2:25:20Those other councilors coming,

2:25:21but I will call the meeting to order

2:25:23and Councillor Chew has also not,

2:25:25is now not available for the rest of the meeting

2:25:28just to make that clear.

2:25:30We are at the Horde West Heritage Conservation District Study.

2:25:33We have a couple of staff and our consultants

2:25:36that are gonna give us a little bit of a presentation.

2:25:39So welcome and I'll turn it over to you.

2:25:44Thank you, Mr. Mayor, members of council.

2:25:47It is my honor to introduce to you the findings

2:25:49of the Horde West Heritage District Conservation Study.

2:25:53I'd like to begin by commending council

2:25:56on your leadership in directing staff

2:25:58to initiate this district study.

2:26:00When people think of heritage,

2:26:02too often they think of the mansion on the hill

2:26:04and not the workers cottage in the flood plain.

2:26:08The Horde represents the history of immigration

2:26:11and the working class in the city of Guelph.

2:26:14While you may not find grand estates in the Horde,

2:26:16you will find a history of community,

2:26:19creativity, hard work and multiculturalism.

2:26:22I've been stunned by the enthusiasm

2:26:24for this project in the community.

2:26:26Our open houses were incredibly well attended

2:26:28and the feedback overwhelmingly supported

2:26:30the establishment of a heritage district.

2:26:33I'm going to turn it over to members of the project team

2:26:36who will describe the findings of the study.

2:26:43Thank you, Jack.

2:26:44Good evening, Mayor Guthrie and council members.

2:26:47I'm Christina Martins,

2:26:49manager of ASI's Heritage Planning

2:26:51and Building Conservation portfolio.

2:26:53I'm joined by my colleague, Uta Mai Matista,

2:26:57who is principal urban design at O2 Planning and Design.

2:27:05Getting acquainted with the slides.

2:27:09Okay, try again.

2:27:12Okay, Jack told me it was a delay

2:27:15and I didn't know how long.

2:27:16The western portion of the ward was identified

2:27:19as one of four heritage areas

2:27:21within the ward neighborhood in the 2020 action plan.

2:27:25It's this area that was defined at that point

2:27:29that became the basis

2:27:30for the Heritage Conservation District study area.

2:27:36A heritage conservation district can help put in place

2:27:39a heritage sensitive framework to guide future development

2:27:43and growth in specific areas.

2:27:45And HCD is conducted in two phases,

2:27:47the study and the plan.

2:27:50The study phase that we are sharing tonight

2:27:52has been undertaken to determine

2:27:53whether the Ward West area meets the requirements

2:27:57for creation of a district under the Ontario Heritage Act.

2:28:05The study has an included engagement with the community

2:28:09through a working group, open houses,

2:28:12a walking tour and online surveys,

2:28:14correspondence with indigenous nations

2:28:16and consultation with Heritage Guelph.

2:28:19We have heard from the community

2:28:20that it is important to create a plan

2:28:22for stewarding the wards cultural heritage.

2:28:25The community has a desire to keep the ward welcoming

2:28:27and in their words, weird.

2:28:30They value the ward's proximity to downtown,

2:28:33mix of building types, heritage buildings,

2:28:35the history of the area, the river and natural areas

2:28:38and their neighbors.

2:28:40Like with any new planning process,

2:28:42we've also received questions from property owners

2:28:45and stakeholders interested in some instances

2:28:48and concerned in others to understand

2:28:51what new requirements or procedures it might establish.

2:28:58KSI has completed background research and inventory work

2:29:01analyzing the character and qualities

2:29:03that have evolved in the ward,

2:29:04beginning with the natural environment and through to today.

2:29:08Seven themes emerged from this analysis.

2:29:11The ward is a place defined by the natural edges

2:29:13of the speed and aramosa rivers and their confluence

2:29:16and the lowlands within which the area sits.

2:29:20This contributed to how, where and when

2:29:23phases of development occurred.

2:29:25The proximity to the speed river

2:29:27and to downtown initiated a wave of industrial uses.

2:29:31While the Grand Trunk Railway

2:29:33and a series of registered plans

2:29:35established the existing road network and block pattern

2:29:39and the residential neighborhood west of Huron Street.

2:29:43The earliest industrial buildings in the ward

2:29:45developed along the speed river in the 19th century.

2:29:48The earliest phases of residential development

2:29:50occurred in close proximity.

2:29:53In the 1880s, the Guelph Junction Railway

2:29:56encouraged a building boom that continued

2:29:58into the first few decades of the 20th century.

2:30:01The residential properties are densely packed

2:30:04with narrow lots and limited space between buildings

2:30:06resulting in compact streetscapes

2:30:08and a prevalence of semi-detached and row houses.

2:30:17The area was prone to flooding

2:30:19and registered plans of subdivision

2:30:21created smaller than standard lots.

2:30:23These conditions made this place comparatively affordable.

2:30:27Many people who lived in the area also worked

2:30:29in close proximity at jobs in nearby industries.

2:30:34The Guelph Junction Railway and its spur line,

2:30:37availability of undeveloped land

2:30:39and the generally flat topography

2:30:41that allowed for large floor plates

2:30:43brought manufacturing and increased industries in the area.

2:30:49In the early to mid 20th century,

2:30:51the area's diverse population began to convert residences

2:30:54into shops and businesses.

2:30:56Streetscapes evolved and local economies

2:30:59and a self-sustaining community emerged.

2:31:01This tradition of abdication and ingenuity continues today.

2:31:06The heritage evaluation of the area concluded

2:31:09that the study area has physical, historical

2:31:11and contextual value and meets the criteria

2:31:14for designation as a heritage conservation district

2:31:17under the Ontario Heritage Act.

2:31:23A key component of the study is determining

2:31:25an appropriate boundary for the HCD

2:31:28as the study areas reviewed in detail.

2:31:32In some cases, the recommended boundary

2:31:34is different than the study area.

2:31:36Boundary analysis is based on analysis

2:31:39of the history of the area,

2:31:41the streetscape and individual property surveys

2:31:44of what exists today,

2:31:45as well as public input to understand

2:31:47how the public perceives when you are in

2:31:49or outside the distinct area

2:31:52that should be guided by a specialized planning framework.

2:31:55It should contain the area that together

2:31:57is of heritage value.

2:32:00To distinguish an HCD,

2:32:02it should have specific characteristics

2:32:05which are set out in the Ontario Heritage Toolkit.

2:32:08These are a framework of elements

2:32:10like major natural features and built form,

2:32:13a character that is recognized and distinguishable

2:32:16from their surroundings or neighboring areas,

2:32:19a concentration of features linked by aesthetic,

2:32:22historical and sociocultural contexts or uses,

2:32:25and a sense of visual coherence

2:32:28that conveys a distinct sense of time or place.

2:32:34The west part of the ward is shaped and enclosed

2:32:36by the rivers and the topography

2:32:38with St. George's Hill rising to the north

2:32:40and the rivers containing the southern and eastern edges.

2:32:44The edges of the area are marked by gateways

2:32:46which signal the entrance to a distinct place.

2:32:49These occur at Elizabeth Street and Arthur Street South,

2:32:52the 100 Steps, along York Road

2:32:55at the Guelph Junction Railway Spur,

2:32:57at the Neve Street Bridge and at the Covered Bridge.

2:33:04The west part of the ward has a concentration

2:33:06of the largest and earliest water and rail-based industries

2:33:10within the junction railway,

2:33:12with the junction railway spur

2:33:14containing the eastern edge of the area.

2:33:17These industries were supported by the earliest,

2:33:20modest houses, but with readily available materials

2:33:23on small, affordable lots.

2:33:27The lots are set within an irregular street pattern

2:33:30which distinguishes the feel of the area

2:33:32and is distinct from the regular, rectangular block pattern

2:33:35in the east part of the ward.

2:33:38This irregular street pattern sets out many T and Y intersections

2:33:42which create a pedestrian-friendly environment

2:33:44and restricts vehicular traffic.

2:33:49The establishment of these features

2:33:50through the 19th century culminate in the west part of the ward

2:33:54being a significant early 20th century working class place.

2:33:59And together, these features are contained

2:34:01within a clear boundary which defines this place.

2:34:04The recommended area for the HCD is located

2:34:07within the larger ward neighborhood.

2:34:09It is the area that has the earliest concentration

2:34:12of historical features.

2:34:14The boundary includes the study area we started with

2:34:17that's outlined in blue on the map

2:34:19and then is increased to the red-dashed area.

2:34:25So to include the speed and Aramosa rivers

2:34:29and a portion of Elizabeth Street

2:34:31with the slope down into the area from St. George's

2:34:34as well as the other gateways.

2:34:37The recommended area for an HCD

2:34:39also contains the industrial ward identified in the chat

2:34:43and portions of the riverscape.

2:34:51Those familiar with HCDs such as right here in Guelph,

2:34:55the Brooklyn and College Hill HCD

2:34:58or Oldport Credit in Mississauga, for example,

2:35:01or Historic Young Street in Toronto may ask,

2:35:03why put into place an HCD in the ward?

2:35:06Or is an HCD the right tool for the ward?

2:35:11An HCD can be an adaptable planning tool

2:35:14focused on conserving the heritage attributes of a place.

2:35:17It sets out a framework for how the area will grow

2:35:20and continue to evolve.

2:35:22An HCD allows for interpretation and storytelling

2:35:26which sustains the history, traditions

2:35:28and areas in tangible qualities.

2:35:31It can help keep the ward weird.

2:35:34This is possible because foremost an HCD documents

2:35:37what is culturally important about an area.

2:35:40Without such an understanding codified in some way

2:35:43through a planning document,

2:35:45it's unlikely that the qualities that make this place,

2:35:48this place will continue on.

2:35:51We must name that which we want to keep going

2:35:53into the future.

2:35:56The conservation of heritage attributes

2:35:58can involve a spectrum of approaches

2:36:00such as preserving only heritage facades

2:36:03or portions of buildings,

2:36:05repurposing heritage structures for new uses

2:36:08and preserving existing structures for their current uses.

2:36:12The second phase of the HCD, the plan phase,

2:36:16would focus on what approach provides

2:36:18the right balance for the ward.

2:36:21Recently, the city of Toronto put in place an HCD plan

2:36:26for Kensington Market.

2:36:28A place that is also weird

2:36:31and it's different from many other HCDs in Ontario

2:36:35with a unique identity.

2:36:37Kensington Market represents a diverse immigrant population

2:36:41where many different ethno-cultural communities

2:36:43have each added to the areas layers of built form,

2:36:47maintained a dynamic market

2:36:48and contributed to a vibrant street life.

2:36:51This is not unlike the ward.

2:36:53Both have narrow streets, closely built rows of small houses,

2:36:57conversions to commercial uses and cultural institutions.

2:37:02This example shows that HCDs are becoming suited

2:37:04to places like the ward.

2:37:08It is important to sustain places like the ward,

2:37:11places that offer spontaneous, curious

2:37:13and unique elements in our growing cities.

2:37:17It might seem that a regulatory tool

2:37:19like a heritage designation is not well suited

2:37:21to safeguarding the spontaneous aspects of a neighborhood.

2:37:24However, without some kind of clear,

2:37:26place-based planning framework that sets out

2:37:29what is important to safeguard,

2:37:31it's unlikely that it will somehow survive.

2:37:34Thank you.

2:37:42Thank you, Christina.

2:37:45I want to emphasize to Council

2:37:46that the decision being made tonight

2:37:48is to affirm the recommended boundary

2:37:51and to direct staff to proceed

2:37:53with the development of the planning guidelines.

2:37:58Before I conclude, I would like to address

2:38:00some of the concerns raised in the correspondence

2:38:02submitted for this item.

2:38:04It is important to note that the planning guidelines

2:38:07will not be applicable to every property

2:38:09within the heritage district.

2:38:11Newer builds such as metal works

2:38:13will be classed as non-contributing properties

2:38:15and will not be subject to the same conservation guidelines

2:38:19that a contributing property would be.

2:38:22Wood's development has participated

2:38:24in the Ward West Working Group

2:38:25and has provided valuable advice to the project team

2:38:28and Fusion has been invited to participate

2:38:31in the working group to ensure that the plan

2:38:33and guidelines strikes the right balance

2:38:35between conservation and development.

2:38:39It is the intention of staff and the project team

2:38:41to develop a progressive and flexible plan

2:38:45that conserves what is most important in the neighborhood

2:38:47while encouraging new development.

2:38:50Thank you for your time this evening.

2:38:51The project team and I will be happy

2:38:52to answer any questions you may have.

2:38:56Well, thank you both very much, appreciate it.

2:39:00I also just want to just say thank you

2:39:02for addressing some of the correspondence

2:39:04that we got as well.

2:39:06A few of us were kind of wondering about that.

2:39:07We're going to ask.

2:39:08So you preemptively got there on some of it.

2:39:11So we appreciate that.

2:39:13Would someone be willing to move the recommendations

2:39:15at the very least?

2:39:16Okay, Kossin and Kate, we'll stick to the screen there.

2:39:21And is there any questions at all?

2:39:23Okay, Gibson and then Guller.

2:39:26Thank you, through you Mr. Mayor.

2:39:28So I'm not being cheeky with my request.

2:39:31My question, I get the merits.

2:39:34Staff have been extensive in the merits of the study.

2:39:38Are there any detractions?

2:39:40Is there any other any concerns, any setbacks?

2:39:43Like I haven't received a counter argument

2:39:46to why we shouldn't move forward

2:39:48other than sort of what's in my head.

2:39:50So I mean, have staff heard anything

2:39:52from the public about concerns on their property?

2:40:05Through the mayor to council Gibson.

2:40:09During and through engagement,

2:40:11staff receive some concerns about the implications

2:40:16of a heritage district

2:40:17and what that would mean for property owners.

2:40:20But these are generally the same concerns

2:40:23that are raised around designation,

2:40:26regardless of whether it's a district

2:40:28or an individual designation.

2:40:30And we'll seek to address those

2:40:33through the planning guidelines.

2:40:36We intend to make a very flexible planning guideline

2:40:40that allows property owners maximal flexibility

2:40:43with their property while ensuring

2:40:45that what's important in the neighborhood is conserved.

2:40:48Right, so I guess that's safe to assume

2:40:50there's some opposition to moving forward.

2:40:52That's okay.

2:40:53I guess maybe just a couple of properties.

2:40:56How does the heritage designation

2:41:01support reinvestment in the ward?

2:41:07I'm thinking about the Boxmeet Revolution building

2:41:09that's been sitting there for 30, 40, 50 years

2:41:13and may sit there for another 100 years.

2:41:14And the only people making money off that

2:41:16are the exterminators.

2:41:18But my question is, again, I'm struggling with,

2:41:21this is the last, one of the last quote unquote,

2:41:25affordable places to buy a home

2:41:27for new partners, new families.

2:41:31And my concern is when they purchase that home

2:41:34and want to renovate it,

2:41:36because they're almost, many of them are fixed uppers

2:41:39when they go on the market.

2:41:40And they go to renovate them

2:41:42and bring them up to their standard of living

2:41:45that are going to be met with hurdle after hurdle,

2:41:49simply to get building permits

2:41:51or what they can and can't do to the building

2:41:53and the cost associated with that.

2:41:55How do we get rid,

2:41:59how do we disposition those concerns

2:42:02when we've just heard from a homeowner

2:42:06begging not to be designated for the time being

2:42:08because they can't even be insured?

2:42:11How do we get over those hurdles?

2:42:16Through the mayor.

2:42:18So I will note that we have not yet developed

2:42:21the planning guidelines,

2:42:23but there is a lot of latitude

2:42:25for the types of conservation guidelines

2:42:29that can be in a planning guideline.

2:42:33And I will note that for part five,

2:42:35for district designation,

2:42:37it does not imply to the interior of properties.

2:42:40And it's generally only larger scale alterations

2:42:45that would trigger a heritage permit requirement.

2:42:49I don't disagree,

2:42:50but when it comes to larger renovations,

2:42:53you're talking about,

2:42:55if I wanna put a new roof on my home,

2:42:57if I wanna put a new siding on my home,

2:42:59if I wanna improve the insulation of my home,

2:43:01if I wanna put new windows in my home with new cladding,

2:43:04these are all things that end up having to go

2:43:05through heritage committee

2:43:07and just constantly create hurdles for the homeowner.

2:43:10And I've heard from current homeowner saying,

2:43:13please don't do this to my home.

2:43:15We wanna invest in it,

2:43:17but we can't afford to if all of a sudden

2:43:19we're having to go through multiple departments

2:43:21just to get building permits.

2:43:24I hope I'm not the only one on council that's heard this,

2:43:27but I've heard it from many, many homeowners in the ward

2:43:30when I represented the ward.

2:43:32I just don't wanna be the only one speaking to it

2:43:34because these are real concerns from homeowners

2:43:36that don't appear to be showing up in the staff reports.

2:43:45Through the mayor to councillor Gibson,

2:43:48I would like to note that most of the alterations

2:43:50you described would not require a heritage permit.

2:43:55An example would be adding an extra story to a residence.

2:44:00And even then in my three years working at the city,

2:44:04I have never not recommended approval

2:44:06of a heritage permit.

2:44:08So I just wanna push back on that a little bit.

2:44:11If someone has,

2:44:16I can't remember the name of it,

2:44:17but the patchwork,

2:44:21the sub-visualized cement work on the side of their home

2:44:23and they would like to do away with it

2:44:25because it's cracking, crumbling, and getting rid of it.

2:44:26And they don't wanna have to pay

2:44:28an exorbitant amount for a heritage professional

2:44:30to come in and fix it.

2:44:31They just wanna simply restore it to code,

2:44:33putting new cladding and new side on it.

2:44:35They wouldn't have to go through heritage

2:44:38to receive that demolition permit

2:44:41simply to just to bring their home up to code

2:44:44or to change the cladding or to change the,

2:44:47I think it's called spatch cocking

2:44:48or something like that on the side of the house.

2:44:55Through the mayor,

2:44:57these are questions that will be addressed

2:44:59in the planning guideline phase.

2:45:01And this feedback is helpful for us

2:45:03to understand the concerns that council has

2:45:05about how conservation guidelines

2:45:08may affect property owners.

2:45:10I appreciate that,

2:45:10because I'm recalling a constituent calling me

2:45:14and at their wit's end already,

2:45:17having been sent back to the Heritage Committee

2:45:19two or three times to simply put a back porch on their house.

2:45:24I just wanna make sure that that voice

2:45:26is being heard on council as well,

2:45:27that it's not all positives.

2:45:29There are some drawbacks and homeowners investment,

2:45:34reinvestment, restoration of homes.

2:45:36There are some apprehensions when it comes to these things.

2:45:40Not to mention infill, sorry.

2:45:43I know that the other heritage district in our city

2:45:47has large, large estate size lots.

2:45:49Those are not occurring in the ward.

2:45:52These are narrow, narrow bin lots

2:45:55with really strong density for residential housing.

2:45:57So it's not like we're concerned

2:45:59about massive infill projects coming into our area,

2:46:03chopping up big estate lots and putting in infill.

2:46:05That's not really the concern in the ward.

2:46:07It's more the ability to improve the houses.

2:46:11Thank you.

2:46:14Thank you.

2:46:15Guller, Downer, Caron, Colosson.

2:46:20Thank you through your worship to staff.

2:46:22Thank you so much for bringing this forward.

2:46:24I wanted to follow up on one of the other questions

2:46:27that was included from one of the letters.

2:46:29Why did we choose to exclude Lion Park from the area?

2:46:45Thank you through the mayor.

2:46:47We did look at Lion Park as that was raised

2:46:49during the engagement that we had during the project.

2:46:53And we did extensive review of Lion's involvement

2:46:57in the ward, looking at registered plans

2:47:00throughout the entirety of the ward neighborhood

2:47:03to understand where Lion's influence was.

2:47:07And it was really in the eastern part of the ward.

2:47:10And so Lion Park being on the edge,

2:47:12we determined that it was more logical

2:47:15that it be grouped with the eastern portion of the ward

2:47:20rather than this western portion.

2:47:24Okay, I appreciate that.

2:47:25So if there is another heritage district

2:47:28at a later point, it wouldn't, perfect.

2:47:31And the other question that was raised in that same letter was,

2:47:35why is the boundary on the center of the road,

2:47:37as opposed to including both sides of the street?

2:47:47Yes, so through the mayor,

2:47:49it may appear on the map as though

2:47:52it is running through the center of the street,

2:47:55but with the scale of the map,

2:47:56the intention is that it runs along the edge of the street.

2:48:01We did look at those edges very carefully

2:48:06to understand where it was appropriate

2:48:08to include both sides of the street

2:48:10as we experience streets in that way with both sides.

2:48:17But in the cases where it is within

2:48:20or at the edge of the street

2:48:21and doesn't include properties on both sides of the street,

2:48:24we found it was most appropriate to be in that place

2:48:28rather than capturing further properties

2:48:32into the HCD boundary that started to be properties

2:48:34that didn't directly relate to the heritage values

2:48:37being identified.

2:48:40Okay, so just so that I understood,

2:48:43it is on the street because the properties on the other side

2:48:47do not have the same heritage values, is that correct?

2:48:51That's correct.

2:48:52Okay, I appreciate that.

2:48:53Thank you, thank you, worship.

2:48:56Thank you.

2:48:57I'm sorry, if I, Councillor Downer,

2:48:58just jump in on the map question,

2:49:00just one quick follow-up, thank you.

2:49:02The same kind of map question about the center

2:49:04going down the center,

2:49:05it also extended, one of the ideas

2:49:08from one of the correspondence was to extend it up.

2:49:12And some of that to me feels like it's the same vibe

2:49:16or as you say, weirdness to the area.

2:49:19So why is that not included?

2:49:21It just, to me, it all fits in the same captured area.

2:49:28There's not understanding why you would cut it off there.

2:49:41Yes, thank you for the question, Mayor.

2:49:44That area we looked at as well,

2:49:47we were very careful with the boundary

2:49:49because we know that this neighborhood is thought of

2:49:53as an entire place.

2:49:56So we examined all of the edges with care

2:50:01and that area we felt like didn't have the same cohesiveness

2:50:05as the other portions.

2:50:07And really the west part of the ward

2:50:09is about being that earliest portion of the ward.

2:50:13And so that area comes later

2:50:15in the development of the entire area.

2:50:18And again, like Lyon Park,

2:50:20it better sits within the narrative

2:50:22of the east portion of the ward.

2:50:28I appreciate that answer.

2:50:29Thank you, thank you for letting me jump in.

2:50:31Councillor Downer, then Caron.

2:50:34Yes, so I guess my response to Councillor Gibson

2:50:39is just from my experience living in a heritage district

2:50:42that has small lots.

2:50:43So the old university part that's the Brooklyn

2:50:46has a small lots, they don't have large lots.

2:50:49It's a small large heritage district like cottages.

2:50:52And within Stone's Throw of Me,

2:50:54there's been six renovations and major renovations

2:50:59in the last two years.

2:51:01One's a small cottage with a major renovation

2:51:04on each side of it, it's a kitty corner to me.

2:51:05Another one's had an addition on the back.

2:51:09Another one around the corner has had a major,

2:51:12major addition almost as big as a house

2:51:14with a double garage and a house like a room's above it

2:51:19and room out the back.

2:51:21Another one was completely demolished

2:51:23around the other corner from me

2:51:25and they're building a semi on it.

2:51:27And a house beside me had a huge addition put on it.

2:51:30And these are neighbors I talked to

2:51:33and I haven't heard any complaints

2:51:36and I haven't seen any one of them go to Heritage Golf

2:51:38more than once if they had to go to Heritage Golf.

2:51:42Because some of the work that's been done in the neighborhood

2:51:44and it hasn't required that, it's just gone to see staff.

2:51:47So I just wanna give my personal experience

2:51:49of living in a heritage district.

2:51:51And my neighborhood in just my few streets around me

2:51:55has had significant change while maintaining

2:51:59that heritage feel around the neighborhood.

2:52:03So I think it's,

2:52:08so when you ask people, when people ask you,

2:52:10Councillor Gibson, you can ask them to just drive around

2:52:13the Brooklyn, not the large lot area

2:52:15far away from the little Brooklyn area,

2:52:18ask them to drive around

2:52:19and they'll see the significant change

2:52:20in development that's happened

2:52:21and investment that's gone on in just a few blocks.

2:52:28Thank you.

2:52:29Caron and Claeson, okay.

2:52:31Yeah, I think I'll just say ditto to Councillor Downer.

2:52:34There is this narrative out there

2:52:36that a designation is an impediment.

2:52:39And that is a, that I would say 98% of the commentary

2:52:43is myth.

2:52:45Examples like a back porch needing three visits

2:52:47to heritage wealth.

2:52:49A back porch on a non-designated property

2:52:52doesn't need a heritage permit,

2:52:54it needs a building permit.

2:52:55So they may have had to go back for a building permit

2:52:57but not certainly not a heritage permit.

2:52:59So I think when we're as a council talking

2:53:02about conservation districts

2:53:04or even individual part four designations,

2:53:08I think we need to be cognizant

2:53:09that we need to make informed decisions

2:53:13and perpetuating that urban mythology

2:53:16that there's all of these roadblocks

2:53:19intended to prevent homeowners

2:53:21from either minor, major or new builds

2:53:25in heritage districts.

2:53:26We just don't have evidence that's true

2:53:28and I'm gonna keep repeating that over and over again.

2:53:31Point of order, Mr. Mayor.

2:53:35Hey, what's your point of order?

2:53:37I just have to speak to the irony

2:53:39that we just went through a 30 minute delegation

2:53:42on the complications of a designation

2:53:44under the Heritage Act and now we gave a deferral.

2:53:48And now you're talking about how little the problems exist.

2:53:51Well, these are property, please.

2:53:53Yeah, Councillor Gibson.

2:53:54I'm a bit ironic.

2:53:55Yeah, I just, sorry to jump in there.

2:53:57I don't mean to interrupt you,

2:53:58but like a point of order is more like a process

2:54:00or a procedural issue.

2:54:03Your comments or comments to own,

2:54:05I would keep them as a comment.

2:54:07It doesn't have to be a point of order.

2:54:09You could definitely say what you wanna say there.

2:54:11I can put you on the list

2:54:13and you can say your comments or opinions at that time, okay?

2:54:17Excuse me.

2:54:21Point of personal privilege.

2:54:23My fellow Councillor did call me hypocritical.

2:54:26I'd like that withdrawn.

2:54:31I use the term ironic.

2:54:34Okay, yeah, so I'm just, I'm sorry.

2:54:36I was probably trying to talk over you and I didn't hear it,

2:54:38but if you could please just not refrain,

2:54:41but if you can, what's the word?

2:54:44I'm gonna go for it.

2:54:46Right?

2:54:47No, if you could withdraw your comment

2:54:52about Councillor Cronn's comments being hypocritical.

2:54:56I made so much, I made no such comment,

2:54:58Mr. Mayor, she must have misheard me.

2:54:59I used from ironic.

2:55:01Okay, we're gonna move on.

2:55:02We're gonna move on everybody.

2:55:04Yeah, we're gonna move on.

2:55:07And I believe it was Councillor Klassen next on my list.

2:55:10Go ahead.

2:55:14Yes, thank you through you, Mr. Mayor, too, staff.

2:55:18I think that my question probably will be timely

2:55:21based on previous interaction.

2:55:24So from my perspective, I want heritage to be talked about

2:55:30as a positive contribution to our community,

2:55:33that it's like a celebration of our history

2:55:35and it's culturally significant

2:55:38and it gives people something to learn about our history.

2:55:42And with that said, is there something that we're doing

2:55:46as we've got a few heritage districts now,

2:55:52is there a place on the website or on our social media

2:55:56where we can kind of have a different type of conversation

2:56:00about heritage because there is this narrative out there

2:56:02that heritage can be a cumbersome process

2:56:06and we have just heard that there are some concerns.

2:56:09And so I'm just wondering,

2:56:12I know that maybe this is not specific to the boundary,

2:56:15but I think it will be,

2:56:17where can people go to learn more about this

2:56:19and will we be doing some proactive communications

2:56:21to help people understand what the impact

2:56:24might be to their property?

2:56:26Thank you.

2:56:31Through the mayor to counselor class.

2:56:33We have resources on our website, Heritage Planning.

2:56:39We are also presently working on a social media campaign

2:56:45to help both promote current and recent heritage projects

2:56:49as well as to promote education

2:56:52around what designation means and entails.

2:56:55We're also in the planning phases for hosting a workshop

2:56:59on individual designation

2:57:01for any interested property owner in the city.

2:57:11I appreciate the answer.

2:57:15And I think any other questions

2:57:16I'd be kind of talking too broadly about heritage.

2:57:18So just I'll keep it to that.

2:57:22All right.

2:57:23Thanks counselor, Cossin.

2:57:25Can I move on to look to the vote?

2:57:28No, Councillor Gibson, go ahead.

2:57:31Sorry, I think my comments are more timely now, Mr. Mayor.

2:57:33So I'll just give it at,

2:57:37all of us on council experienced the 30 minute delegation

2:57:41of the delegate who came to council asking for a deferral

2:57:46or not to be added to the designation,

2:57:48the heritage destination

2:57:49because of the complications on insurance,

2:57:52because of the complications it created

2:57:54for the delegates household.

2:57:58So not 30 minutes later,

2:58:00we're hearing about all the merits of a heritage district

2:58:02and all these things.

2:58:04I'm simply echoing the same delegates concerns.

2:58:08And now we're saying don't exist.

2:58:11It is a very ironic place to stand

2:58:14in a council chambers when 30 minutes apart,

2:58:16we have two stories.

2:58:19I just want it on the record

2:58:22that there are concerns in the community.

2:58:23We've heard them and there's correspondence

2:58:28on other files concerned, very real,

2:58:32to the point where council has deferred

2:58:34designating these properties.

2:58:37There are very real concerns about this

2:58:40and it's not just a messaging thing.

2:58:43We have members of community coming forward

2:58:45concerned about their house being designated.

2:58:47That exists in the world.

2:58:49I'll leave my comments as it stands.

2:58:51I just want to speak to the irony.

2:58:53Thank you.

2:58:56Okay, thank you.

2:58:57Okay, Councillor Alv.

2:58:59Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

2:59:01I appreciate the remarks of all my colleagues on this.

2:59:05And I certainly appreciate the input of staff

2:59:08on how we are characterizing this

2:59:10as somewhat similar to somewhere like Kensington Market.

2:59:13Staff has worked on this for approximately two years

2:59:16and we have achieved a great deal of input.

2:59:18We at council have heard about this

2:59:20and I think it's incumbent upon us to recognize

2:59:23that a short timeframe was not something

2:59:25that we needed to consider at all.

2:59:27There was plenty of time for people to come forward

2:59:30and I think that as Councillor Klossin said,

2:59:34heritage is something that should be celebrated.

2:59:37It's positive and the word West is an area

2:59:41that is a newly revived area.

2:59:45This is something that will be a feather

2:59:47in the cap of the residents in that area.

2:59:50I appreciate staff for having done that.

2:59:52I appreciate the input of all people,

2:59:54whether they agree with this designation

2:59:57or whether they're uncomfortable with it.

3:00:00They have had their opportunity to exercise

3:00:03their right in municipal democracy.

3:00:07Okay, thank you.

3:00:10Okay, with that, I just have a couple,

3:00:11just very quick questions, okay,

3:00:13just to have me feel better

3:00:14and then we'll call the vote, okay?

3:00:17So one of the things I love about the ward

3:00:20and I think maybe others would too,

3:00:21is the potential and the current, the walk up commercial.

3:00:25I think about the Rainbow Cafe

3:00:27and the standing room bar.

3:00:33That is what to me, it makes the ward

3:00:37really a very special place

3:00:39because it kind of suits itself to that.

3:00:41And it also is a heritage issue, right?

3:00:43You can go down, I think it's Alice Street

3:00:45and see the little red brick home

3:00:48that used to be a shoe shop or something.

3:00:50That stuff's all around that area

3:00:52and I think that's really cool.

3:00:53So my question is on like permissions of zoning,

3:00:58I see Toronto right now and see some other cities,

3:01:00they start to start to relax

3:01:02and actually encourage walk up small commercial

3:01:04in amongst neighborhoods.

3:01:06And I'm just wondering like,

3:01:08does this restrict anything like that in the future

3:01:12from a zoning perspective

3:01:13that we can maybe start to actually encourage

3:01:16that type of redevelopment of spots

3:01:19into walk up little commercial

3:01:21within these residential areas?

3:01:28Through the mayor, there's a long history

3:01:30of combined commercial and residential uses in the ward.

3:01:34As you said, it's common to walk around,

3:01:37you can see the old store sign

3:01:39fading in paint on the brick facade.

3:01:42So this is the exact type of thing

3:01:44that we'll look to encourage

3:01:46through this planning guideline as well.

3:01:50Yeah, thank you.

3:01:52Okay, awesome.

3:01:53I try to answer, ask yes or no questions.

3:01:56You can always just say yes, take it from there.

3:01:58Okay, and then I just wanna understand

3:02:01sort of the stepped process

3:02:03because it's like we're approving

3:02:04sort of what's in front of us here.

3:02:06We're also approving the name.

3:02:07I think it would be better if we called it

3:02:09the proposed name would be the Weird Heritage

3:02:11Conservation District.

3:02:13But and then number three is that you get off

3:02:17to get the plan together.

3:02:18Does that plan come back for us?

3:02:21Because I think that's an important thing to say out loud

3:02:24is that this isn't like a moment of once and done.

3:02:26Like it's sort of a stepped process.

3:02:29I just wanna make sure we hear that from you

3:02:31and you can tell us and the public right now

3:02:33when we can expect that final stage to come back.

3:02:44Through the mayor.

3:02:44So we intend to bring the planning guideline forward

3:02:48in approximately a year.

3:02:50As with the Ontario Reformatory HCD plan,

3:02:54there will be a statutory public meeting

3:02:57and then followed by council approval.

3:03:01Yeah, okay.

3:03:03Did you wanna say more there or no?

3:03:07Yeah, and just for council.

3:03:09So when the plan comes through,

3:03:10so it's a statutory public meeting.

3:03:12So there's opportunity for input changes

3:03:14before we bring back the final recommendation.

3:03:16And there's still the off ramp process

3:03:19if that is a desire of council at that time.

3:03:24All right.

3:03:25And my final question is,

3:03:28it is to the correspondence.

3:03:30Just as I took the delegate that Councillor Gibson

3:03:32just mentioned very seriously,

3:03:33and I also take the correspondence

3:03:35that's attached very seriously too.

3:03:38These are two sites that everyone is kind of excited about.

3:03:41Finishing off metalworks, you address that.

3:03:44So thank you.

3:03:45I'm very happy about that.

3:03:46I think we all should be to get that site completed

3:03:49and look for that site to be done.

3:03:53And then the here on street, the woods thing there,

3:03:56I just wanna make sure like you're gonna,

3:03:58between now and the plan when it comes back,

3:04:01you're gonna be working hand in hand on that

3:04:03because I would hate for this,

3:04:06if you're saying you're coming back in a year on this,

3:04:09but they're ready to go faster

3:04:11on their development than a year,

3:04:13that you're not like, sorry,

3:04:14you gotta wait for this heritage stuff to be done.

3:04:16So can we get confirmation verbally on that?

3:04:22Yes, I can confirm that we will not delay those developments

3:04:26pending a planning guideline.

3:04:28Great, we need the foundations poured.

3:04:32We need our numbers, right?

3:04:34All right, well, thank you very much.

3:04:37With that, I'd like to, it's already been moved

3:04:38and seconded, so I'd like to call the vote.

3:04:41I don't think I need to separate them.

3:04:44So I'll just ask the question,

3:04:46is anyone against those three motions?

3:04:50No one that's unanimous.

3:04:51So thank you to staff and to our consultants too.

3:04:54Great job, thank you everyone and keep up the great work.

3:04:58Okay, we're at our last, I think it's our last.

3:05:02Yep, we're at our last issue.

3:05:03I'm gonna pass the mic over to Councillor Caron

3:05:08and just to allow Councillor Caron

3:05:12to kind of speak to the item.

3:05:13I know that the motions are gonna be passed

3:05:16or tabled by Councillor Caron and tabled by,

3:05:19seconded by Councillor Goller.

3:05:22So with that, like, you know,

3:05:23before the delegates come up,

3:05:25you can go ahead and explain what you are trying to table.

3:05:28You have the floor.

3:05:30I don't wanna take too much time,

3:05:32we'll let the delegation speak,

3:05:33but as everyone knows last week,

3:05:35Bill 5 and Bill 17 passed quickly on the last day

3:05:39before recessing for the summer recess of the legislature.

3:05:44Both Bill 5 and 17 remove what I consider

3:05:49to be significant protections that protect human health,

3:05:52Indigenous rights, labor laws, democratic principles.

3:05:57I'll speak a little bit more to it

3:05:58when I actually table the resolution,

3:06:01but I do feel that the city,

3:06:03often when we bring,

3:06:05when we pull items from the information reports

3:06:08or when we bring in motions of support

3:06:10or motions to send messages to the province,

3:06:14they tend to be larger global issues.

3:06:16This one really hits home

3:06:19because it is removing local bylaws,

3:06:22local planning authority.

3:06:25Our MPP, Mike Schreiner,

3:06:27when he rose on the floor last week,

3:06:28called it one of the worst pieces of legislation

3:06:31that he's seen coming out of Queens Park

3:06:34in the province of Ontario during his time in office.

3:06:37I agree with that assessment.

3:06:39And I think we have an obligation to reflect

3:06:42our community and our city in responding to those bills.

3:06:49And I'll send it over to delegations

3:06:51and then I'll put the motion on the floor afterwards

3:06:53with some more commentary.

3:06:54Okay, thank you so much.

3:06:55And yes, we have two.

3:06:57Rachel Vier from the Water Watchers is here,

3:06:59then Evan Ferrari from Emerge,

3:07:01Guelph Sustainability is here.

3:07:03So Rachel, if you wanna come on down,

3:07:05and again, it's no more than five minutes

3:07:07and I think you might know the drill.

3:07:08You'll hear the chime at four minutes and 30 seconds,

3:07:11but go ahead and have the timer.

3:07:12We'll start when you start.

3:07:18Good evening, Mayor and good evening, Council.

3:07:21Thank you for allowing me to delegate today.

3:07:23My name is Rachel Vier.

3:07:24I work for Water Watchers Environmental NGO

3:07:27that works on the front lines of water protection

3:07:29who believe water is for life and not profit

3:07:31and have made it our mission to empower people

3:07:34and communities to work in solidarity towards social justice

3:07:38through a unifying lens of water.

3:07:41I'm here today to aid in fulfilling our mission and mandate.

3:07:44Bill five or protect Ontario by unleashing the Economy Act

3:07:48is a direct threat to democratic process

3:07:50and indigenous treaty rights,

3:07:51while simultaneously stripping Ontario

3:07:54of environmental regulations and protections.

3:07:57This past week has been absolutely heartbreaking

3:07:59for indigenous communities across Ontario,

3:08:01especially First Nation communities in Northern Ontario,

3:08:04who have been evacuated from their land and their homes.

3:08:07At the same time, hundreds of indigenous peoples

3:08:10from all across Ontario gather peacefully to protest

3:08:12against Bill five outside of Queens Park,

3:08:15only to have the bill pass.

3:08:17As we step into National Indigenous History Month,

3:08:19we continue to ignore the very people we're asking to speak up

3:08:23and share their stories.

3:08:24What we are witnessing right now will be the history

3:08:27that is told one day,

3:08:28and I hope you choose to be on the right side of it.

3:08:31So what is at stake with the passing of Bill five?

3:08:35Bill five seeks to employ special economic zones.

3:08:37What the government is proposing is to have

3:08:39certain development projects be exempt

3:08:41from municipal, provincial or federal laws

3:08:43for streamlining purposes.

3:08:45Essentially, the developers would not have to follow

3:08:48any law guideline or restriction

3:08:49due to environmental or community concerns.

3:08:53Premier Ford has already listed some of the projects

3:08:55that would be included in these zones

3:08:57and included as a ring of fire,

3:08:59a proposed massive mining pit in Northern Ontario

3:09:01that borders on many First Nation communities

3:09:03and directly impacts several endangered species

3:09:05such as the woodland caribou and bald eagle.

3:09:09Several First Nation communities, leaders and chiefs

3:09:11have spoken out against Bill five

3:09:13in the serious threat it poses to indigenous treaty rights

3:09:16and the principle of free, prior and informed consent.

3:09:20Every aspect of this bill undermines indigenous treaties,

3:09:23rights and culture.

3:09:24At its core, Bill five exists to accelerate the extraction

3:09:26of natural resources from Northern Ontario territory

3:09:29that is home and stewarded by First Nations communities.

3:09:32This extractive agenda puts the land, the waters,

3:09:35the species and these sacred sites.

3:09:37These communities rely on and protect at grave risk,

3:09:42all without consequence.

3:09:44A few weeks ago on May 26th, the chiefs,

3:09:46Spontario gathered at Queens Park

3:09:48to voice their opposition to Ford's,

3:09:51to the Ford government's omnibus, omnibus Bill five,

3:09:54warning that it threatens inherent rights,

3:09:55treaty obligations, sovereignty.

3:09:57The government responded with weak amendments

3:09:59and shallow promises that consent

3:10:01would be considered in these zones.

3:10:03However, First Nation leaders were clear

3:10:04unless the bill is scrapped and rewritten,

3:10:06giving indigenous peoples a seat at the table,

3:10:08they would be idle no more.

3:10:09And with the passage of this bill on June 4th,

3:10:12the fight has just begun.

3:10:14I want to remind council that upholding treaty responsibilities

3:10:17is on all of us as treaty people.

3:10:22And while I am talking about special economic zones

3:10:24that will impact indigenous communities in proximity

3:10:27to coveted materials or other resources, let's be clear.

3:10:30The attack on democracy proposed in this bill

3:10:33will affect us all.

3:10:34The community of Guelph has important protections in place

3:10:36that have taken decades of advocacy to bring in place.

3:10:39Regulations and policies that will safeguard

3:10:42treasured natural heritage here in Guelph

3:10:43that ensure that we have adequate recharge areas

3:10:46and green space for a collective well-being.

3:10:49The power of this bill could have Queen's Park

3:10:52overriding all of your interests as well.

3:10:53As of right now, these zones could be anywhere

3:10:55and we would be powerless to stand against them.

3:10:59We used to rely on protective democratic practices

3:11:01and legislation such as Environmental Species Act,

3:11:04but with Bill 5, this has gone too.

3:11:06Now developers need only register their habitat destruction

3:11:09prior to doing it, then proceed with no repercussions.

3:11:13As I stand here safely in Guelph,

3:11:16far from devastating fires tearing through indigenous lands

3:11:19and communities in the North, I feel compelled to speak up.

3:11:22These fires are not just a natural disaster,

3:11:25they are a reminder of what's at stake.

3:11:26First Nations communities are consistently

3:11:28on the front lines of land defense, protecting what remains.

3:11:32This indigenous history month,

3:11:33I urge you take one meaningful step towards reconciliation

3:11:36and say no to Bill 5 and let's stop further extraction

3:11:39and honor indigenous stewardship of this land.

3:11:43Thank you, Rachel.

3:11:45We appreciate your delegation.

3:11:47Let me check if there's a follow up for you.

3:11:49There isn't, but thank you very much for waiting around.

3:11:53We appreciate it.

3:11:55Okay, and Evan, come on down.

3:12:02And you know the drill, Evan,

3:12:03we just, the timer will start when you're ready, okay?

3:12:06Great, thank you, Mr. Mayor.

3:12:10I have to say that Rachel did a wonderful job

3:12:14of outlining all of the issues

3:12:15that are related to First Nations.

3:12:18I'll be quite brief tonight.

3:12:21Unfortunately, the province passed

3:12:22a number of regressive bills last week,

3:12:25among them Bill 5, but also Bill 17,

3:12:29that isn't in the council agenda.

3:12:31And that both of these would throw out protections

3:12:35of our environment, indigenous rights, civil liberties,

3:12:37and municipal authority in a number of different areas.

3:12:40Queen's part needs to hear a very loud no

3:12:46from the city of Guelph

3:12:47to these oppressive and heavy handed bills.

3:12:50Thankfully, you're considering a motion

3:12:52that clearly states what I hope will be

3:12:55that very loud no to the bills.

3:12:58Simply stated, the province needs

3:13:00to obey existing laws, not throw them out.

3:13:05The city's indigenous statement of acknowledgement

3:13:08alone provides enough reason

3:13:10for the city of Guelph to oppose these bills.

3:13:13Quoting part of it here, it reads,

3:13:15if our actions today can move us towards reconciliation,

3:13:20we should take pause and make those decisions

3:13:22with intention and gratitude.

3:13:25But of course, there's much more.

3:13:27Interestingly enough, at the last council meeting,

3:13:30you passed a motion that would help us plan better

3:13:32to create green development standards in our city,

3:13:35in our work to reach our climate goals

3:13:38through something called a step code.

3:13:40These types of standards have been implemented

3:13:42by numerous municipalities across the province.

3:13:45Now the premier is attempting to prevent municipalities

3:13:48from doing just that, something that you've just brought in.

3:13:52Emerge is pleased with the direction of this motion.

3:13:54And by adding mention of Bill 17, it will be even stronger.

3:13:59I look forward to seeing a unanimous support no

3:14:03from Guelph City Council towards these provincial bills.

3:14:07Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

3:14:08Thanks, Evan.

3:14:09Appreciate you waiting around too.

3:14:11So thank you.

3:14:12Any follow up for Evan?

3:14:15No, thank you very much.

3:14:18Back to the mover and thank you to the seconder,

3:14:21Councillor Goller, but over to you.

3:14:24And if you could just kind of table it and then we can get going.

3:14:27But you have the floor.

3:14:28Yeah, I'll do.

3:14:29I don't have a whole bunch of where as statements.

3:14:31So it's just kind of my opening commentary.

3:14:34And it is a little bit the motion that's

3:14:36going to go on the floor.

3:14:37And the clerks will put it on the screen when it's read.

3:14:40It's a little different than the one that

3:14:42was printed in the council agenda.

3:14:45And I appreciate the input of various stakeholders,

3:14:49including Councillor Goller, and adding some additional edits.

3:14:52And Mayor Guthrie, you had an edit as well.

3:14:55So thank you for that.

3:14:57Everyone in this horseshoe wants more housing.

3:15:01We want increased economic growth in our city

3:15:03and in our province.

3:15:05But we're asking ourselves tonight at what cost.

3:15:08It's our role to make informed decisions that

3:15:11will stand the test of time.

3:15:13Our role is city building.

3:15:14Our role is to protect citizens from adverse impacts

3:15:19of bad planning decisions.

3:15:21And are we willing to break the laws of the province of Ontario

3:15:25for a fast buck?

3:15:28We don't have any evidence how housing will be built faster.

3:15:31Are we going to abandon our treaty obligations

3:15:34with our indigenous partners?

3:15:36Are we going to sacrifice endangered species and conservation

3:15:39practices, ignore air and water and ground pollution,

3:15:43override municipal land use planning authority,

3:15:46abolish public consultation, ignore laws designed

3:15:49to protect human health and safety, our labor laws?

3:15:53Bill 5 and 17 were passed so quickly,

3:15:55cutting off debate on the last day

3:15:58before recessing for the summer recess.

3:16:02If special economic zones require us

3:16:05to abandon the rule of law, then we

3:16:08are abandoning the very principles

3:16:09and purpose of government.

3:16:11We create laws to protect our citizens and future generations

3:16:15from greed, from rich and powerful forces that

3:16:17hold themselves above the law.

3:16:20So who gets to decide who are these special economic zones?

3:16:24So-called trusted proponents, the Premier and his ministers

3:16:28get to decide who those trusted proponents are.

3:16:31Do any of these trusted proponents

3:16:33own land on or near the green belt?

3:16:36Because it isn't just the ring of fire.

3:16:39It's any special economic zone.

3:16:40And it could come closer to home.

3:16:42It could come to the green belt.

3:16:43It could come to our own GID lands.

3:16:47And I think one of the most egregious parts of the provisions

3:16:53in the bill are those that exempt the province from lawsuits

3:16:56under certain sections under this bill.

3:16:58So they can break the law, cause adverse impact,

3:17:01and then it immunize himself from being

3:17:04held accountable for that.

3:17:06I think Bill 17 is equally concerning.

3:17:10And I've also added Bill 17 to the draft motion.

3:17:13It removes many of the aspects of land use planning authority

3:17:16away from the municipal level of government.

3:17:18It makes it impossible for us to do the work necessary

3:17:21to reduce the impact of climate change

3:17:24by creating green development standards

3:17:26to help us reach our 2050 net zero goals.

3:17:30And for developments that will impact neighboring properties

3:17:34with noise and storm water and wind,

3:17:36all of those impact studies are no longer required

3:17:39under Bill 17.

3:17:39So our planning staff have no ability

3:17:41to mitigate or require conditions that

3:17:44would prevent negative impacts.

3:17:47In short, Bill 5 is designed to advance profit over people.

3:17:52And as we've seen with Bill 23 and Bill 124

3:17:55in the last term of this government,

3:17:57they're not going to be effective in building more housing

3:18:00because Ontario has the second slowest housing

3:18:03starts in the country after all of these bills were

3:18:07passed designed to promote more housing.

3:18:10We're just not getting that.

3:18:12So in summary, these bills combined

3:18:15are yet another nail in the coffin of good governance.

3:18:17Any government that passes a bill to exempt itself

3:18:20from its own laws is not a government.

3:18:23It is tyranny.

3:18:24And this motion can be simplified in one sentence.

3:18:28And I give credit to Ann Moore, who

3:18:31was at a rally a few weeks ago opposing Bill 5 for these words.

3:18:35Premier Ford, obey your own laws.

3:18:39So I'm hopeful tonight that my council colleagues will

3:18:41join me in sending a message to the Premier

3:18:43that the citizens of Guelph strongly

3:18:45object to Bill 5 and Bill 17.

3:18:47And we're ready to put those motions on the screen.

3:18:51Do you want me to read them, Mr. Mayor,

3:18:53or processability?

3:18:55Yeah, sure.

3:18:56I'm sure to not.

3:18:57Go ahead.

3:18:58And then I'll go to Councillor Goller,

3:18:59but go ahead and read them.

3:19:00OK, that the city of Guelph opposes provisions in Bill 5,

3:19:03particularly under schedules 2 and 9,

3:19:05and provisions in Bill 17 that would diminish

3:19:07environmental protections and override municipal planning

3:19:10authority, and that the city of Guelph

3:19:12call on the province of Ontario to obey their own rule of law

3:19:15to pursue housing, forestry, infrastructure,

3:19:18and critical mineral development through policies that

3:19:20follow sound environmental planning principles,

3:19:23uphold the planning authority of local government,

3:19:25respect indigenous treaty obligations,

3:19:28and protect vital ecological systems,

3:19:30and that the city of Guelph endorses the city's submission

3:19:33regarding Bill 5 to the Environmental Rights

3:19:36of Ontario 0250391 Special Economic Zones Act 2025,

3:19:40and ERO 0250380 Species Conservation Act,

3:19:44and as posted in the information items on May 23.

3:19:48And then the fourth clause is just

3:19:50that this resolution be forward to a number of agencies

3:19:53and individuals as listed.

3:19:55Great.

3:19:56Thank you very much.

3:19:58And comment to Councillor Gore.

3:20:02Thank you through your worship.

3:20:03Thank you to Councillor Kerron for bringing this forward.

3:20:07Also, I wanted to take a moment to think.

3:20:09I was just looking at reply to 160 emails

3:20:12over the last couple of weeks calling on this.

3:20:15And I wanted to thank the folks that are here,

3:20:18Indigo and Abigail and Morgan, and particularly

3:20:21Evan for his input in some of the things

3:20:23that helped us craft this motion.

3:20:27There's a lot of people in Guelph

3:20:29that feel very strongly about this.

3:20:31So I hope we can pass this unanimously tonight.

3:20:33Thank you, worship.

3:20:35Thank you, Councillor.

3:20:36All to please.

3:20:37Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

3:20:39I too will be supporting this.

3:20:41I've done a fair bit of work looking at this.

3:20:44And one of the things that came up for me

3:20:46is that there's an economic argument for supporting this.

3:20:50My colleague, Councillor Gibson, often says

3:20:52that there's only one taxpayer and he's quite correct.

3:20:55But there are three levels of government.

3:20:57And these particular bills coming

3:20:58from the provincial government are going to cost us money.

3:21:01And they're going to cost us money

3:21:03in a number of different ways.

3:21:04First of all, just consider the issue of indigenous rights.

3:21:07The indigenous rights issue will certainly

3:21:09lead to court challenges.

3:21:10And that will clearly cost us money.

3:21:13It is not just a notwithstanding clause.

3:21:15It is the work that goes into a notwithstanding clause

3:21:19and the legal challenges that the government will

3:21:21be required to consider.

3:21:23I'm also very, very worried that this will also

3:21:25lead to significant civil disobedience.

3:21:28And we've seen what's happened south of the border

3:21:30in Los Angeles just recently, where suddenly civil disobedience

3:21:33has become met with significant challenges that

3:21:38are in themselves violent.

3:21:40Again, another cost to us.

3:21:41But the most important thing that I talked to Mike Shreiner

3:21:45about was that actually by diminishing

3:21:49municipal planning authority, the provincial government

3:21:51is actually potentially putting in another level

3:21:54of bureaucracy, which is a provincial planning authority

3:21:58to take the place of municipal planning authorities.

3:22:02So as I said, Councillor Gibson is quite correct.

3:22:05There is just one taxpayer.

3:22:06But this is going to cost a lot of money.

3:22:09And as a consequence of that, not only

3:22:11do we have the moral and the ethical imperatives

3:22:15to consider that this must be stopped,

3:22:17we have a pocketbook challenge ahead of us.

3:22:23Thank you.

3:22:24Is there anything further before I can call the vote?

3:22:26Councillor Caton, please.

3:22:30Thank you.

3:22:31Through you, Mr. Mayor, I just wanted

3:22:32to echo all the other councillor's statements.

3:22:35I think that this is a really important motion to support.

3:22:39And I'm glad that we've added on Bill 17.

3:22:43Bill 6 is also a nightmare, but for a different reason,

3:22:46related to environment.

3:22:48But I think that it's really important for us

3:22:51to speak up when bills like this are

3:22:54broached by the government, because we need to stand united

3:23:01to support the laws that we have in place

3:23:03and make sure that we are not harming our indigenous neighbors

3:23:07and the environment.

3:23:09Thanks.

3:23:13Thank you.

3:23:13Is there anything further?

3:23:16OK, I'll just have quick comments from me.

3:23:19So thank you for Councillor Caron, Guller, and others

3:23:21that have brought this forward.

3:23:23One of the tenets of what I appreciate about AMO,

3:23:27which is the Association of Municipalities of Ontario,

3:23:30is the position of overriding the local governance,

3:23:34overriding the local government.

3:23:37And that is one of the key first things

3:23:39that I always get my get a little bit.

3:23:45There's some friction on that, let's say it that way.

3:23:48And so I think that the, especially under both bills,

3:23:53really, that there was an intent of trying

3:23:57to react to the states and to economic opportunities.

3:24:01And I think the thing that we acknowledge is that,

3:24:06I think we all want to try to do that.

3:24:08But it's the how.

3:24:10It's the how it gets done.

3:24:11And I think it's already been stated,

3:24:13so I'll say ditto to those things.

3:24:16There are, for me, though, I just

3:24:18want to say there are some provisions.

3:24:19And that's why I thank you for just adding the word provisions

3:24:23in there to Bill 17 specifically.

3:24:28There are some provisions in Bill 17 that I actually do support.

3:24:32I think there are some things that are OK.

3:24:35And I think the intent of some of it there was good.

3:24:39In fact, part of AMO's positioning

3:24:42was actually working with the government around Bill 17.

3:24:45And they came out quite in favor with a lot of it,

3:24:48but with some of the hesitations on some of the other issues, too.

3:24:51But I can definitely support this.

3:24:53And so I want to say thank you for that.

3:24:57And I think where I would encourage, I guess,

3:25:05the government is about relationships.

3:25:08And getting things, I think, settled relationship-wise

3:25:13prior to doing a vote on a bill is usually the sequencing

3:25:17that I think is something that should have taken place here.

3:25:21So now they've passed a bill, and now they're

3:25:24going to try to create or fix or repair relationships.

3:25:28And I just think that's going to be a longer road,

3:25:30a longer journey for them.

3:25:33So anyways, I do want to just say thank you.

3:25:37And there was actually, it was interesting, Councillor Caron,

3:25:41there was a poll today that came out.

3:25:43Did you see it?

3:25:44There was a poll today that came out from across Ontario,

3:25:46like from a ledger poll or something.

3:25:49I forget who did it, but like a legitimate polling company.

3:25:51And it's interesting.

3:25:53It's split right down the middle of people that are supportive

3:25:57and people that are not.

3:25:58Literally, I think it's like 44 and 41 or something like that.

3:26:01Then 13% just didn't know what was going on.

3:26:04So it's definitely a bill, especially Bill 5,

3:26:11that is very much known to people.

3:26:14So I know that we've had a lot of some commentary that's

3:26:18come in to us, and I've definitely talked to people.

3:26:22In fact, I see, I'm so sorry, I forget your name.

3:26:24Is it Indigo?

3:26:26Yeah, hello.

3:26:27We talked about this with your club at school,

3:26:30and I encouraged you to speak up about it.

3:26:33So here you are.

3:26:34So thank you very much.

3:26:36And so with that, I think I'll just

3:26:40call the vote on those things.

3:26:42And not a big deal, but in the future, just try to.

3:26:46I don't want to stay here longer.

3:26:47But in the future, you can always

3:26:49add Ontario Big City Mayor's Caucus as one of the things

3:26:52there too, because then I can kind of take it to them.

3:26:55I'll take it to them anyways, so you don't have to put it on.

3:26:58It's OK.

3:26:59I'll take it anyways.

3:27:00But in the future, just throw that on there as well.

3:27:04All right, I'll call the vote then.

3:27:06Is anyone against?

3:27:09No?

3:27:09OK, thank you very much.

3:27:10I'll get ready to sign that.

3:27:13And now just let me confer with the clerks for a second.

3:27:22Thank you.

3:27:22Claussen, over to you to name out the recommended bylaws

3:27:28for us tonight, please.

3:27:29By the way, I just want to state verbally,

3:27:32Councillor Gibson did leave for that discussion

3:27:36because he declared a conflict of interest.

3:27:38So he was not part of that debate, did not vote.

3:27:40He wasn't even a part of the meeting at all.

3:27:43I just want to make sure that's caught on the record

3:27:45that people don't think he left for any other reason.

3:27:47It was because he declared the conflict

3:27:48at the beginning of the meeting.

3:27:50So Councillor Claussen, go ahead.

3:27:53Yes, thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:27:55That bylaws 2025, 2010, 79 through 2010, 81, 2025, 21093,

3:28:07through 2010, 97, 2025, 2010, 99, through 2011, 01.

3:28:14And 2025, 2011, 2103 be approved as amended subject

3:28:22to section 284, 114 of the Municipal Act.

3:28:28Thank you.

3:28:29I'm sorry, Councillor Claussen.

3:28:30You were muted that whole time.

3:28:32Can you do it again?

3:28:32Just kidding.

3:28:33I just.

3:28:35A little bit of levity, a little bit of levity.

3:28:38Councillor Gaulder will.

3:28:40Point to personal privilege.

3:28:43What's that?

3:28:45I was saying point to personal privilege.

3:28:47I'm just joking.

3:28:48Well said, my friend.

3:28:50All right, Councillor Gaulder will second it.

3:28:52I'll call the vote.

3:28:53Is anyone against those bylaws?

3:28:56Nobody, awesome.

3:28:57All right.

3:28:58How about adjournment?

3:28:59Who's going to help me with that?

3:29:00Is Billings going to unmute and say adjourn?

3:29:03Adjourn.

3:29:04Awesome.

3:29:05Richardson, you'll second adjournment.

3:29:07Is anyone against that?

3:29:09Nobody?

3:29:09OK, that's it.

3:29:10Have a great night, everybody.

3:29:11Thank you very much.