Recommendations of the Ward West Heritage Conservation District Study Report (prepared by ASI and dated April 2025) be approved. That the proposed heritage conservation district be…

2:25:20Those other councilors coming,

2:25:21but I will call the meeting to order

2:25:23and Councillor Chew has also not,

2:25:25is now not available for the rest of the meeting

2:25:28just to make that clear.

2:25:30We are at the Horde West Heritage Conservation District Study.

2:25:33We have a couple of staff and our consultants

2:25:36that are gonna give us a little bit of a presentation.

2:25:39So welcome and I'll turn it over to you.

2:25:44Thank you, Mr. Mayor, members of council.

2:25:47It is my honor to introduce to you the findings

2:25:49of the Horde West Heritage District Conservation Study.

2:25:53I'd like to begin by commending council

2:25:56on your leadership in directing staff

2:25:58to initiate this district study.

2:26:00When people think of heritage,

2:26:02too often they think of the mansion on the hill

2:26:04and not the workers cottage in the flood plain.

2:26:08The Horde represents the history of immigration

2:26:11and the working class in the city of Guelph.

2:26:14While you may not find grand estates in the Horde,

2:26:16you will find a history of community,

2:26:19creativity, hard work and multiculturalism.

2:26:22I've been stunned by the enthusiasm

2:26:24for this project in the community.

2:26:26Our open houses were incredibly well attended

2:26:28and the feedback overwhelmingly supported

2:26:30the establishment of a heritage district.

2:26:33I'm going to turn it over to members of the project team

2:26:36who will describe the findings of the study.

2:26:43Thank you, Jack.

2:26:44Good evening, Mayor Guthrie and council members.

2:26:47I'm Christina Martins,

2:26:49manager of ASI's Heritage Planning

2:26:51and Building Conservation portfolio.

2:26:53I'm joined by my colleague, Uta Mai Matista,

2:26:57who is principal urban design at O2 Planning and Design.

2:27:05Getting acquainted with the slides.

2:27:09Okay, try again.

2:27:12Okay, Jack told me it was a delay

2:27:15and I didn't know how long.

2:27:16The western portion of the ward was identified

2:27:19as one of four heritage areas

2:27:21within the ward neighborhood in the 2020 action plan.

2:27:25It's this area that was defined at that point

2:27:29that became the basis

2:27:30for the Heritage Conservation District study area.

2:27:36A heritage conservation district can help put in place

2:27:39a heritage sensitive framework to guide future development

2:27:43and growth in specific areas.

2:27:45And HCD is conducted in two phases,

2:27:47the study and the plan.

2:27:50The study phase that we are sharing tonight

2:27:52has been undertaken to determine

2:27:53whether the Ward West area meets the requirements

2:27:57for creation of a district under the Ontario Heritage Act.

2:28:05The study has an included engagement with the community

2:28:09through a working group, open houses,

2:28:12a walking tour and online surveys,

2:28:14correspondence with indigenous nations

2:28:16and consultation with Heritage Guelph.

2:28:19We have heard from the community

2:28:20that it is important to create a plan

2:28:22for stewarding the wards cultural heritage.

2:28:25The community has a desire to keep the ward welcoming

2:28:27and in their words, weird.

2:28:30They value the ward's proximity to downtown,

2:28:33mix of building types, heritage buildings,

2:28:35the history of the area, the river and natural areas

2:28:38and their neighbors.

2:28:40Like with any new planning process,

2:28:42we've also received questions from property owners

2:28:45and stakeholders interested in some instances

2:28:48and concerned in others to understand

2:28:51what new requirements or procedures it might establish.

2:28:58KSI has completed background research and inventory work

2:29:01analyzing the character and qualities

2:29:03that have evolved in the ward,

2:29:04beginning with the natural environment and through to today.

2:29:08Seven themes emerged from this analysis.

2:29:11The ward is a place defined by the natural edges

2:29:13of the speed and aramosa rivers and their confluence

2:29:16and the lowlands within which the area sits.

2:29:20This contributed to how, where and when

2:29:23phases of development occurred.

2:29:25The proximity to the speed river

2:29:27and to downtown initiated a wave of industrial uses.

2:29:31While the Grand Trunk Railway

2:29:33and a series of registered plans

2:29:35established the existing road network and block pattern

2:29:39and the residential neighborhood west of Huron Street.

2:29:43The earliest industrial buildings in the ward

2:29:45developed along the speed river in the 19th century.

2:29:48The earliest phases of residential development

2:29:50occurred in close proximity.

2:29:53In the 1880s, the Guelph Junction Railway

2:29:56encouraged a building boom that continued

2:29:58into the first few decades of the 20th century.

2:30:01The residential properties are densely packed

2:30:04with narrow lots and limited space between buildings

2:30:06resulting in compact streetscapes

2:30:08and a prevalence of semi-detached and row houses.

2:30:17The area was prone to flooding

2:30:19and registered plans of subdivision

2:30:21created smaller than standard lots.

2:30:23These conditions made this place comparatively affordable.

2:30:27Many people who lived in the area also worked

2:30:29in close proximity at jobs in nearby industries.

2:30:34The Guelph Junction Railway and its spur line,

2:30:37availability of undeveloped land

2:30:39and the generally flat topography

2:30:41that allowed for large floor plates

2:30:43brought manufacturing and increased industries in the area.

2:30:49In the early to mid 20th century,

2:30:51the area's diverse population began to convert residences

2:30:54into shops and businesses.

2:30:56Streetscapes evolved and local economies

2:30:59and a self-sustaining community emerged.

2:31:01This tradition of abdication and ingenuity continues today.

2:31:06The heritage evaluation of the area concluded

2:31:09that the study area has physical, historical

2:31:11and contextual value and meets the criteria

2:31:14for designation as a heritage conservation district

2:31:17under the Ontario Heritage Act.

2:31:23A key component of the study is determining

2:31:25an appropriate boundary for the HCD

2:31:28as the study areas reviewed in detail.

2:31:32In some cases, the recommended boundary

2:31:34is different than the study area.

2:31:36Boundary analysis is based on analysis

2:31:39of the history of the area,

2:31:41the streetscape and individual property surveys

2:31:44of what exists today,

2:31:45as well as public input to understand

2:31:47how the public perceives when you are in

2:31:49or outside the distinct area

2:31:52that should be guided by a specialized planning framework.

2:31:55It should contain the area that together

2:31:57is of heritage value.

2:32:00To distinguish an HCD,

2:32:02it should have specific characteristics

2:32:05which are set out in the Ontario Heritage Toolkit.

2:32:08These are a framework of elements

2:32:10like major natural features and built form,

2:32:13a character that is recognized and distinguishable

2:32:16from their surroundings or neighboring areas,

2:32:19a concentration of features linked by aesthetic,

2:32:22historical and sociocultural contexts or uses,

2:32:25and a sense of visual coherence

2:32:28that conveys a distinct sense of time or place.

2:32:34The west part of the ward is shaped and enclosed

2:32:36by the rivers and the topography

2:32:38with St. George's Hill rising to the north

2:32:40and the rivers containing the southern and eastern edges.

2:32:44The edges of the area are marked by gateways

2:32:46which signal the entrance to a distinct place.

2:32:49These occur at Elizabeth Street and Arthur Street South,

2:32:52the 100 Steps, along York Road

2:32:55at the Guelph Junction Railway Spur,

2:32:57at the Neve Street Bridge and at the Covered Bridge.

2:33:04The west part of the ward has a concentration

2:33:06of the largest and earliest water and rail-based industries

2:33:10within the junction railway,

2:33:12with the junction railway spur

2:33:14containing the eastern edge of the area.

2:33:17These industries were supported by the earliest,

2:33:20modest houses, but with readily available materials

2:33:23on small, affordable lots.

2:33:27The lots are set within an irregular street pattern

2:33:30which distinguishes the feel of the area

2:33:32and is distinct from the regular, rectangular block pattern

2:33:35in the east part of the ward.

2:33:38This irregular street pattern sets out many T and Y intersections

2:33:42which create a pedestrian-friendly environment

2:33:44and restricts vehicular traffic.

2:33:49The establishment of these features

2:33:50through the 19th century culminate in the west part of the ward

2:33:54being a significant early 20th century working class place.

2:33:59And together, these features are contained

2:34:01within a clear boundary which defines this place.

2:34:04The recommended area for the HCD is located

2:34:07within the larger ward neighborhood.

2:34:09It is the area that has the earliest concentration

2:34:12of historical features.

2:34:14The boundary includes the study area we started with

2:34:17that's outlined in blue on the map

2:34:19and then is increased to the red-dashed area.

2:34:25So to include the speed and Aramosa rivers

2:34:29and a portion of Elizabeth Street

2:34:31with the slope down into the area from St. George's

2:34:34as well as the other gateways.

2:34:37The recommended area for an HCD

2:34:39also contains the industrial ward identified in the chat

2:34:43and portions of the riverscape.

2:34:51Those familiar with HCDs such as right here in Guelph,

2:34:55the Brooklyn and College Hill HCD

2:34:58or Oldport Credit in Mississauga, for example,

2:35:01or Historic Young Street in Toronto may ask,

2:35:03why put into place an HCD in the ward?

2:35:06Or is an HCD the right tool for the ward?

2:35:11An HCD can be an adaptable planning tool

2:35:14focused on conserving the heritage attributes of a place.

2:35:17It sets out a framework for how the area will grow

2:35:20and continue to evolve.

2:35:22An HCD allows for interpretation and storytelling

2:35:26which sustains the history, traditions

2:35:28and areas in tangible qualities.

2:35:31It can help keep the ward weird.

2:35:34This is possible because foremost an HCD documents

2:35:37what is culturally important about an area.

2:35:40Without such an understanding codified in some way

2:35:43through a planning document,

2:35:45it's unlikely that the qualities that make this place,

2:35:48this place will continue on.

2:35:51We must name that which we want to keep going

2:35:53into the future.

2:35:56The conservation of heritage attributes

2:35:58can involve a spectrum of approaches

2:36:00such as preserving only heritage facades

2:36:03or portions of buildings,

2:36:05repurposing heritage structures for new uses

2:36:08and preserving existing structures for their current uses.

2:36:12The second phase of the HCD, the plan phase,

2:36:16would focus on what approach provides

2:36:18the right balance for the ward.

2:36:21Recently, the city of Toronto put in place an HCD plan

2:36:26for Kensington Market.

2:36:28A place that is also weird

2:36:31and it's different from many other HCDs in Ontario

2:36:35with a unique identity.

2:36:37Kensington Market represents a diverse immigrant population

2:36:41where many different ethno-cultural communities

2:36:43have each added to the areas layers of built form,

2:36:47maintained a dynamic market

2:36:48and contributed to a vibrant street life.

2:36:51This is not unlike the ward.

2:36:53Both have narrow streets, closely built rows of small houses,

2:36:57conversions to commercial uses and cultural institutions.

2:37:02This example shows that HCDs are becoming suited

2:37:04to places like the ward.

2:37:08It is important to sustain places like the ward,

2:37:11places that offer spontaneous, curious

2:37:13and unique elements in our growing cities.

2:37:17It might seem that a regulatory tool

2:37:19like a heritage designation is not well suited

2:37:21to safeguarding the spontaneous aspects of a neighborhood.

2:37:24However, without some kind of clear,

2:37:26place-based planning framework that sets out

2:37:29what is important to safeguard,

2:37:31it's unlikely that it will somehow survive.

2:37:34Thank you.

2:37:42Thank you, Christina.

2:37:45I want to emphasize to Council

2:37:46that the decision being made tonight

2:37:48is to affirm the recommended boundary

2:37:51and to direct staff to proceed

2:37:53with the development of the planning guidelines.

2:37:58Before I conclude, I would like to address

2:38:00some of the concerns raised in the correspondence

2:38:02submitted for this item.

2:38:04It is important to note that the planning guidelines

2:38:07will not be applicable to every property

2:38:09within the heritage district.

2:38:11Newer builds such as metal works

2:38:13will be classed as non-contributing properties

2:38:15and will not be subject to the same conservation guidelines

2:38:19that a contributing property would be.

2:38:22Wood's development has participated

2:38:24in the Ward West Working Group

2:38:25and has provided valuable advice to the project team

2:38:28and Fusion has been invited to participate

2:38:31in the working group to ensure that the plan

2:38:33and guidelines strikes the right balance

2:38:35between conservation and development.

2:38:39It is the intention of staff and the project team

2:38:41to develop a progressive and flexible plan

2:38:45that conserves what is most important in the neighborhood

2:38:47while encouraging new development.

2:38:50Thank you for your time this evening.

2:38:51The project team and I will be happy

2:38:52to answer any questions you may have.

2:38:56Well, thank you both very much, appreciate it.

2:39:00I also just want to just say thank you

2:39:02for addressing some of the correspondence

2:39:04that we got as well.

2:39:06A few of us were kind of wondering about that.

2:39:07We're going to ask.

2:39:08So you preemptively got there on some of it.

2:39:11So we appreciate that.

2:39:13Would someone be willing to move the recommendations

2:39:15at the very least?

2:39:16Okay, Kossin and Kate, we'll stick to the screen there.

2:39:21And is there any questions at all?

2:39:23Okay, Gibson and then Guller.

2:39:26Thank you, through you Mr. Mayor.

2:39:28So I'm not being cheeky with my request.

2:39:31My question, I get the merits.

2:39:34Staff have been extensive in the merits of the study.

2:39:38Are there any detractions?

2:39:40Is there any other any concerns, any setbacks?

2:39:43Like I haven't received a counter argument

2:39:46to why we shouldn't move forward

2:39:48other than sort of what's in my head.

2:39:50So I mean, have staff heard anything

2:39:52from the public about concerns on their property?

2:40:05Through the mayor to council Gibson.

2:40:09During and through engagement,

2:40:11staff receive some concerns about the implications

2:40:16of a heritage district

2:40:17and what that would mean for property owners.

2:40:20But these are generally the same concerns

2:40:23that are raised around designation,

2:40:26regardless of whether it's a district

2:40:28or an individual designation.

2:40:30And we'll seek to address those

2:40:33through the planning guidelines.

2:40:36We intend to make a very flexible planning guideline

2:40:40that allows property owners maximal flexibility

2:40:43with their property while ensuring

2:40:45that what's important in the neighborhood is conserved.

2:40:48Right, so I guess that's safe to assume

2:40:50there's some opposition to moving forward.

2:40:52That's okay.

2:40:53I guess maybe just a couple of properties.

2:40:56How does the heritage designation

2:41:01support reinvestment in the ward?

2:41:07I'm thinking about the Boxmeet Revolution building

2:41:09that's been sitting there for 30, 40, 50 years

2:41:13and may sit there for another 100 years.

2:41:14And the only people making money off that

2:41:16are the exterminators.

2:41:18But my question is, again, I'm struggling with,

2:41:21this is the last, one of the last quote unquote,

2:41:25affordable places to buy a home

2:41:27for new partners, new families.

2:41:31And my concern is when they purchase that home

2:41:34and want to renovate it,

2:41:36because they're almost, many of them are fixed uppers

2:41:39when they go on the market.

2:41:40And they go to renovate them

2:41:42and bring them up to their standard of living

2:41:45that are going to be met with hurdle after hurdle,

2:41:49simply to get building permits

2:41:51or what they can and can't do to the building

2:41:53and the cost associated with that.

2:41:55How do we get rid,

2:41:59how do we disposition those concerns

2:42:02when we've just heard from a homeowner

2:42:06begging not to be designated for the time being

2:42:08because they can't even be insured?

2:42:11How do we get over those hurdles?

2:42:16Through the mayor.

2:42:18So I will note that we have not yet developed

2:42:21the planning guidelines,

2:42:23but there is a lot of latitude

2:42:25for the types of conservation guidelines

2:42:29that can be in a planning guideline.

2:42:33And I will note that for part five,

2:42:35for district designation,

2:42:37it does not imply to the interior of properties.

2:42:40And it's generally only larger scale alterations

2:42:45that would trigger a heritage permit requirement.

2:42:49I don't disagree,

2:42:50but when it comes to larger renovations,

2:42:53you're talking about,

2:42:55if I wanna put a new roof on my home,

2:42:57if I wanna put a new siding on my home,

2:42:59if I wanna improve the insulation of my home,

2:43:01if I wanna put new windows in my home with new cladding,

2:43:04these are all things that end up having to go

2:43:05through heritage committee

2:43:07and just constantly create hurdles for the homeowner.

2:43:10And I've heard from current homeowner saying,

2:43:13please don't do this to my home.

2:43:15We wanna invest in it,

2:43:17but we can't afford to if all of a sudden

2:43:19we're having to go through multiple departments

2:43:21just to get building permits.

2:43:24I hope I'm not the only one on council that's heard this,

2:43:27but I've heard it from many, many homeowners in the ward

2:43:30when I represented the ward.

2:43:32I just don't wanna be the only one speaking to it

2:43:34because these are real concerns from homeowners

2:43:36that don't appear to be showing up in the staff reports.

2:43:45Through the mayor to councillor Gibson,

2:43:48I would like to note that most of the alterations

2:43:50you described would not require a heritage permit.

2:43:55An example would be adding an extra story to a residence.

2:44:00And even then in my three years working at the city,

2:44:04I have never not recommended approval

2:44:06of a heritage permit.

2:44:08So I just wanna push back on that a little bit.

2:44:11If someone has,

2:44:16I can't remember the name of it,

2:44:17but the patchwork,

2:44:21the sub-visualized cement work on the side of their home

2:44:23and they would like to do away with it

2:44:25because it's cracking, crumbling, and getting rid of it.

2:44:26And they don't wanna have to pay

2:44:28an exorbitant amount for a heritage professional

2:44:30to come in and fix it.

2:44:31They just wanna simply restore it to code,

2:44:33putting new cladding and new side on it.

2:44:35They wouldn't have to go through heritage

2:44:38to receive that demolition permit

2:44:41simply to just to bring their home up to code

2:44:44or to change the cladding or to change the,

2:44:47I think it's called spatch cocking

2:44:48or something like that on the side of the house.

2:44:55Through the mayor,

2:44:57these are questions that will be addressed

2:44:59in the planning guideline phase.

2:45:01And this feedback is helpful for us

2:45:03to understand the concerns that council has

2:45:05about how conservation guidelines

2:45:08may affect property owners.

2:45:10I appreciate that,

2:45:10because I'm recalling a constituent calling me

2:45:14and at their wit's end already,

2:45:17having been sent back to the Heritage Committee

2:45:19two or three times to simply put a back porch on their house.

2:45:24I just wanna make sure that that voice

2:45:26is being heard on council as well,

2:45:27that it's not all positives.

2:45:29There are some drawbacks and homeowners investment,

2:45:34reinvestment, restoration of homes.

2:45:36There are some apprehensions when it comes to these things.

2:45:40Not to mention infill, sorry.

2:45:43I know that the other heritage district in our city

2:45:47has large, large estate size lots.

2:45:49Those are not occurring in the ward.

2:45:52These are narrow, narrow bin lots

2:45:55with really strong density for residential housing.

2:45:57So it's not like we're concerned

2:45:59about massive infill projects coming into our area,

2:46:03chopping up big estate lots and putting in infill.

2:46:05That's not really the concern in the ward.

2:46:07It's more the ability to improve the houses.

2:46:11Thank you.

2:46:14Thank you.

2:46:15Guller, Downer, Caron, Colosson.

2:46:20Thank you through your worship to staff.

2:46:22Thank you so much for bringing this forward.

2:46:24I wanted to follow up on one of the other questions

2:46:27that was included from one of the letters.

2:46:29Why did we choose to exclude Lion Park from the area?

2:46:45Thank you through the mayor.

2:46:47We did look at Lion Park as that was raised

2:46:49during the engagement that we had during the project.

2:46:53And we did extensive review of Lion's involvement

2:46:57in the ward, looking at registered plans

2:47:00throughout the entirety of the ward neighborhood

2:47:03to understand where Lion's influence was.

2:47:07And it was really in the eastern part of the ward.

2:47:10And so Lion Park being on the edge,

2:47:12we determined that it was more logical

2:47:15that it be grouped with the eastern portion of the ward

2:47:20rather than this western portion.

2:47:24Okay, I appreciate that.

2:47:25So if there is another heritage district

2:47:28at a later point, it wouldn't, perfect.

2:47:31And the other question that was raised in that same letter was,

2:47:35why is the boundary on the center of the road,

2:47:37as opposed to including both sides of the street?

2:47:47Yes, so through the mayor,

2:47:49it may appear on the map as though

2:47:52it is running through the center of the street,

2:47:55but with the scale of the map,

2:47:56the intention is that it runs along the edge of the street.

2:48:01We did look at those edges very carefully

2:48:06to understand where it was appropriate

2:48:08to include both sides of the street

2:48:10as we experience streets in that way with both sides.

2:48:17But in the cases where it is within

2:48:20or at the edge of the street

2:48:21and doesn't include properties on both sides of the street,

2:48:24we found it was most appropriate to be in that place

2:48:28rather than capturing further properties

2:48:32into the HCD boundary that started to be properties

2:48:34that didn't directly relate to the heritage values

2:48:37being identified.

2:48:40Okay, so just so that I understood,

2:48:43it is on the street because the properties on the other side

2:48:47do not have the same heritage values, is that correct?

2:48:51That's correct.

2:48:52Okay, I appreciate that.

2:48:53Thank you, thank you, worship.

2:48:56Thank you.

2:48:57I'm sorry, if I, Councillor Downer,

2:48:58just jump in on the map question,

2:49:00just one quick follow-up, thank you.

2:49:02The same kind of map question about the center

2:49:04going down the center,

2:49:05it also extended, one of the ideas

2:49:08from one of the correspondence was to extend it up.

2:49:12And some of that to me feels like it's the same vibe

2:49:16or as you say, weirdness to the area.

2:49:19So why is that not included?

2:49:21It just, to me, it all fits in the same captured area.

2:49:28There's not understanding why you would cut it off there.

2:49:41Yes, thank you for the question, Mayor.

2:49:44That area we looked at as well,

2:49:47we were very careful with the boundary

2:49:49because we know that this neighborhood is thought of

2:49:53as an entire place.

2:49:56So we examined all of the edges with care

2:50:01and that area we felt like didn't have the same cohesiveness

2:50:05as the other portions.

2:50:07And really the west part of the ward

2:50:09is about being that earliest portion of the ward.

2:50:13And so that area comes later

2:50:15in the development of the entire area.

2:50:18And again, like Lyon Park,

2:50:20it better sits within the narrative

2:50:22of the east portion of the ward.

2:50:28I appreciate that answer.

2:50:29Thank you, thank you for letting me jump in.

2:50:31Councillor Downer, then Caron.

2:50:34Yes, so I guess my response to Councillor Gibson

2:50:39is just from my experience living in a heritage district

2:50:42that has small lots.

2:50:43So the old university part that's the Brooklyn

2:50:46has a small lots, they don't have large lots.

2:50:49It's a small large heritage district like cottages.

2:50:52And within Stone's Throw of Me,

2:50:54there's been six renovations and major renovations

2:50:59in the last two years.

2:51:01One's a small cottage with a major renovation

2:51:04on each side of it, it's a kitty corner to me.

2:51:05Another one's had an addition on the back.

2:51:09Another one around the corner has had a major,

2:51:12major addition almost as big as a house

2:51:14with a double garage and a house like a room's above it

2:51:19and room out the back.

2:51:21Another one was completely demolished

2:51:23around the other corner from me

2:51:25and they're building a semi on it.

2:51:27And a house beside me had a huge addition put on it.

2:51:30And these are neighbors I talked to

2:51:33and I haven't heard any complaints

2:51:36and I haven't seen any one of them go to Heritage Golf

2:51:38more than once if they had to go to Heritage Golf.

2:51:42Because some of the work that's been done in the neighborhood

2:51:44and it hasn't required that, it's just gone to see staff.

2:51:47So I just wanna give my personal experience

2:51:49of living in a heritage district.

2:51:51And my neighborhood in just my few streets around me

2:51:55has had significant change while maintaining

2:51:59that heritage feel around the neighborhood.

2:52:03So I think it's,

2:52:08so when you ask people, when people ask you,

2:52:10Councillor Gibson, you can ask them to just drive around

2:52:13the Brooklyn, not the large lot area

2:52:15far away from the little Brooklyn area,

2:52:18ask them to drive around

2:52:19and they'll see the significant change

2:52:20in development that's happened

2:52:21and investment that's gone on in just a few blocks.

2:52:28Thank you.

2:52:29Caron and Claeson, okay.

2:52:31Yeah, I think I'll just say ditto to Councillor Downer.

2:52:34There is this narrative out there

2:52:36that a designation is an impediment.

2:52:39And that is a, that I would say 98% of the commentary

2:52:43is myth.

2:52:45Examples like a back porch needing three visits

2:52:47to heritage wealth.

2:52:49A back porch on a non-designated property

2:52:52doesn't need a heritage permit,

2:52:54it needs a building permit.

2:52:55So they may have had to go back for a building permit

2:52:57but not certainly not a heritage permit.

2:52:59So I think when we're as a council talking

2:53:02about conservation districts

2:53:04or even individual part four designations,

2:53:08I think we need to be cognizant

2:53:09that we need to make informed decisions

2:53:13and perpetuating that urban mythology

2:53:16that there's all of these roadblocks

2:53:19intended to prevent homeowners

2:53:21from either minor, major or new builds

2:53:25in heritage districts.

2:53:26We just don't have evidence that's true

2:53:28and I'm gonna keep repeating that over and over again.

2:53:31Point of order, Mr. Mayor.

2:53:35Hey, what's your point of order?

2:53:37I just have to speak to the irony

2:53:39that we just went through a 30 minute delegation

2:53:42on the complications of a designation

2:53:44under the Heritage Act and now we gave a deferral.

2:53:48And now you're talking about how little the problems exist.

2:53:51Well, these are property, please.

2:53:53Yeah, Councillor Gibson.

2:53:54I'm a bit ironic.

2:53:55Yeah, I just, sorry to jump in there.

2:53:57I don't mean to interrupt you,

2:53:58but like a point of order is more like a process

2:54:00or a procedural issue.

2:54:03Your comments or comments to own,

2:54:05I would keep them as a comment.

2:54:07It doesn't have to be a point of order.

2:54:09You could definitely say what you wanna say there.

2:54:11I can put you on the list

2:54:13and you can say your comments or opinions at that time, okay?

2:54:17Excuse me.

2:54:21Point of personal privilege.

2:54:23My fellow Councillor did call me hypocritical.

2:54:26I'd like that withdrawn.

2:54:31I use the term ironic.

2:54:34Okay, yeah, so I'm just, I'm sorry.

2:54:36I was probably trying to talk over you and I didn't hear it,

2:54:38but if you could please just not refrain,

2:54:41but if you can, what's the word?

2:54:44I'm gonna go for it.

2:54:46Right?

2:54:47No, if you could withdraw your comment

2:54:52about Councillor Cronn's comments being hypocritical.

2:54:56I made so much, I made no such comment,

2:54:58Mr. Mayor, she must have misheard me.

2:54:59I used from ironic.

2:55:01Okay, we're gonna move on.

2:55:02We're gonna move on everybody.

2:55:04Yeah, we're gonna move on.

2:55:07And I believe it was Councillor Klassen next on my list.

2:55:10Go ahead.

2:55:14Yes, thank you through you, Mr. Mayor, too, staff.

2:55:18I think that my question probably will be timely

2:55:21based on previous interaction.

2:55:24So from my perspective, I want heritage to be talked about

2:55:30as a positive contribution to our community,

2:55:33that it's like a celebration of our history

2:55:35and it's culturally significant

2:55:38and it gives people something to learn about our history.

2:55:42And with that said, is there something that we're doing

2:55:46as we've got a few heritage districts now,

2:55:52is there a place on the website or on our social media

2:55:56where we can kind of have a different type of conversation

2:56:00about heritage because there is this narrative out there

2:56:02that heritage can be a cumbersome process

2:56:06and we have just heard that there are some concerns.

2:56:09And so I'm just wondering,

2:56:12I know that maybe this is not specific to the boundary,

2:56:15but I think it will be,

2:56:17where can people go to learn more about this

2:56:19and will we be doing some proactive communications

2:56:21to help people understand what the impact

2:56:24might be to their property?

2:56:26Thank you.

2:56:31Through the mayor to counselor class.

2:56:33We have resources on our website, Heritage Planning.

2:56:39We are also presently working on a social media campaign

2:56:45to help both promote current and recent heritage projects

2:56:49as well as to promote education

2:56:52around what designation means and entails.

2:56:55We're also in the planning phases for hosting a workshop

2:56:59on individual designation

2:57:01for any interested property owner in the city.

2:57:11I appreciate the answer.

2:57:15And I think any other questions

2:57:16I'd be kind of talking too broadly about heritage.

2:57:18So just I'll keep it to that.

2:57:22All right.

2:57:23Thanks counselor, Cossin.

2:57:25Can I move on to look to the vote?

2:57:28No, Councillor Gibson, go ahead.

2:57:31Sorry, I think my comments are more timely now, Mr. Mayor.

2:57:33So I'll just give it at,

2:57:37all of us on council experienced the 30 minute delegation

2:57:41of the delegate who came to council asking for a deferral

2:57:46or not to be added to the designation,

2:57:48the heritage destination

2:57:49because of the complications on insurance,

2:57:52because of the complications it created

2:57:54for the delegates household.

2:57:58So not 30 minutes later,

2:58:00we're hearing about all the merits of a heritage district

2:58:02and all these things.

2:58:04I'm simply echoing the same delegates concerns.

2:58:08And now we're saying don't exist.

2:58:11It is a very ironic place to stand

2:58:14in a council chambers when 30 minutes apart,

2:58:16we have two stories.

2:58:19I just want it on the record

2:58:22that there are concerns in the community.

2:58:23We've heard them and there's correspondence

2:58:28on other files concerned, very real,

2:58:32to the point where council has deferred

2:58:34designating these properties.

2:58:37There are very real concerns about this

2:58:40and it's not just a messaging thing.

2:58:43We have members of community coming forward

2:58:45concerned about their house being designated.

2:58:47That exists in the world.

2:58:49I'll leave my comments as it stands.

2:58:51I just want to speak to the irony.

2:58:53Thank you.

2:58:56Okay, thank you.

2:58:57Okay, Councillor Alv.

2:58:59Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

2:59:01I appreciate the remarks of all my colleagues on this.

2:59:05And I certainly appreciate the input of staff

2:59:08on how we are characterizing this

2:59:10as somewhat similar to somewhere like Kensington Market.

2:59:13Staff has worked on this for approximately two years

2:59:16and we have achieved a great deal of input.

2:59:18We at council have heard about this

2:59:20and I think it's incumbent upon us to recognize

2:59:23that a short timeframe was not something

2:59:25that we needed to consider at all.

2:59:27There was plenty of time for people to come forward

2:59:30and I think that as Councillor Klossin said,

2:59:34heritage is something that should be celebrated.

2:59:37It's positive and the word West is an area

2:59:41that is a newly revived area.

2:59:45This is something that will be a feather

2:59:47in the cap of the residents in that area.

2:59:50I appreciate staff for having done that.

2:59:52I appreciate the input of all people,

2:59:54whether they agree with this designation

2:59:57or whether they're uncomfortable with it.

3:00:00They have had their opportunity to exercise

3:00:03their right in municipal democracy.

3:00:07Okay, thank you.

3:00:10Okay, with that, I just have a couple,

3:00:11just very quick questions, okay,

3:00:13just to have me feel better

3:00:14and then we'll call the vote, okay?

3:00:17So one of the things I love about the ward

3:00:20and I think maybe others would too,

3:00:21is the potential and the current, the walk up commercial.

3:00:25I think about the Rainbow Cafe

3:00:27and the standing room bar.

3:00:33That is what to me, it makes the ward

3:00:37really a very special place

3:00:39because it kind of suits itself to that.

3:00:41And it also is a heritage issue, right?

3:00:43You can go down, I think it's Alice Street

3:00:45and see the little red brick home

3:00:48that used to be a shoe shop or something.

3:00:50That stuff's all around that area

3:00:52and I think that's really cool.

3:00:53So my question is on like permissions of zoning,

3:00:58I see Toronto right now and see some other cities,

3:01:00they start to start to relax

3:01:02and actually encourage walk up small commercial

3:01:04in amongst neighborhoods.

3:01:06And I'm just wondering like,

3:01:08does this restrict anything like that in the future

3:01:12from a zoning perspective

3:01:13that we can maybe start to actually encourage

3:01:16that type of redevelopment of spots

3:01:19into walk up little commercial

3:01:21within these residential areas?

3:01:28Through the mayor, there's a long history

3:01:30of combined commercial and residential uses in the ward.

3:01:34As you said, it's common to walk around,

3:01:37you can see the old store sign

3:01:39fading in paint on the brick facade.

3:01:42So this is the exact type of thing

3:01:44that we'll look to encourage

3:01:46through this planning guideline as well.

3:01:50Yeah, thank you.

3:01:52Okay, awesome.

3:01:53I try to answer, ask yes or no questions.

3:01:56You can always just say yes, take it from there.

3:01:58Okay, and then I just wanna understand

3:02:01sort of the stepped process

3:02:03because it's like we're approving

3:02:04sort of what's in front of us here.

3:02:06We're also approving the name.

3:02:07I think it would be better if we called it

3:02:09the proposed name would be the Weird Heritage

3:02:11Conservation District.

3:02:13But and then number three is that you get off

3:02:17to get the plan together.

3:02:18Does that plan come back for us?

3:02:21Because I think that's an important thing to say out loud

3:02:24is that this isn't like a moment of once and done.

3:02:26Like it's sort of a stepped process.

3:02:29I just wanna make sure we hear that from you

3:02:31and you can tell us and the public right now

3:02:33when we can expect that final stage to come back.

3:02:44Through the mayor.

3:02:44So we intend to bring the planning guideline forward

3:02:48in approximately a year.

3:02:50As with the Ontario Reformatory HCD plan,

3:02:54there will be a statutory public meeting

3:02:57and then followed by council approval.

3:03:01Yeah, okay.

3:03:03Did you wanna say more there or no?

3:03:07Yeah, and just for council.

3:03:09So when the plan comes through,

3:03:10so it's a statutory public meeting.

3:03:12So there's opportunity for input changes

3:03:14before we bring back the final recommendation.

3:03:16And there's still the off ramp process

3:03:19if that is a desire of council at that time.

3:03:24All right.

3:03:25And my final question is,

3:03:28it is to the correspondence.

3:03:30Just as I took the delegate that Councillor Gibson

3:03:32just mentioned very seriously,

3:03:33and I also take the correspondence

3:03:35that's attached very seriously too.

3:03:38These are two sites that everyone is kind of excited about.

3:03:41Finishing off metalworks, you address that.

3:03:44So thank you.

3:03:45I'm very happy about that.

3:03:46I think we all should be to get that site completed

3:03:49and look for that site to be done.

3:03:53And then the here on street, the woods thing there,

3:03:56I just wanna make sure like you're gonna,

3:03:58between now and the plan when it comes back,

3:04:01you're gonna be working hand in hand on that

3:04:03because I would hate for this,

3:04:06if you're saying you're coming back in a year on this,

3:04:09but they're ready to go faster

3:04:11on their development than a year,

3:04:13that you're not like, sorry,

3:04:14you gotta wait for this heritage stuff to be done.

3:04:16So can we get confirmation verbally on that?

3:04:22Yes, I can confirm that we will not delay those developments

3:04:26pending a planning guideline.

3:04:28Great, we need the foundations poured.

3:04:32We need our numbers, right?

3:04:34All right, well, thank you very much.

3:04:37With that, I'd like to, it's already been moved

3:04:38and seconded, so I'd like to call the vote.

3:04:41I don't think I need to separate them.

3:04:44So I'll just ask the question,

3:04:46is anyone against those three motions?

3:04:50No one that's unanimous.

3:04:51So thank you to staff and to our consultants too.

3:04:54Great job, thank you everyone and keep up the great work.

3:04:58Okay, we're at our last, I think it's our last.

3:05:02Yep, we're at our last issue.

3:05:03I'm gonna pass the mic over to Councillor Caron