City Council

12:11All right everybody if I could have my colleagues on online just to put their cameras on I'd appreciate it if you're there

12:19Thank you right off the

12:24right off the bat I have a

12:26Regrets official regrets from councillor Klassen for tonight

12:31and

12:32We're also looking to move into a closed session

12:37Before I do that though does anyone have any disclosure of pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof for the matters for closed session

12:47Okay, hearing and seeing none. Thank you

12:52So we have just two items

12:56That are on our closed agenda and they're titled chief administrative officer

13:022026 performance objectives update

13:05Section 239 to BND of the municipal act regarding personal matters

13:11Unidentifiable individual including municipal or local board employees and labor relations or employee negotiations

13:18And the section the second one is Sloan Hill Park encroachments

13:23section 239 to F of the municipal act regarding advice that is subject to solicitor client privilege including communications

13:31necessary for that purpose

13:33Those are the only two items that we would look to be discussing as your colleague of mine that be willing to move

13:40Councillor Richardson and alt will second. Thank you

13:44I'll call the vote if that's okay. Is anyone against those two items to talk about enclosed

13:49Nobody that's unanimous. Thank you very much. And so we'll have that meeting now and then

13:55We will look to have a summary when we come out of closed session to continue with the open

14:02I probably will do the summary at six o'clock when the public meeting is actually

14:10To start at six. So just so if anyone is watching online or is

14:15in the room

14:17Which nobody is

14:19Then just be prepared that we probably will not come back out until six o'clock no matter what to start at that time

14:26Okay, so thank you very much. All right. Good evening everybody

1:34:30It is

1:34:32About five minutes to six and normally our open session meeting would start at six

1:34:38We've had a little bit of a delay. So we are going to start the open session at six fifteen

1:34:43Okay, so we're sorry about that. I will give the uh, the

1:34:48in-camera summary

1:34:50At that time when we start the open session. Okay. Thank you very much

1:54:32Okay, everybody. This is your one minute

1:54:35friendly warning

1:54:37Before we start our open session

1:55:59Okay, if I could just have my friends online, uh, maybe throw their cameras on just so I can see how many are there to see if we have

1:56:05quorum

1:56:08Okay, we do I am going to call the meeting to order in the open session right now

1:56:14Um, we did move into a closed session earlier around around 4 30

1:56:20And as described on the open agenda, we had two items that we went in camera on

1:56:25The first one was the chief administrative officer

1:56:292026 performance objectives update and the second one was the slownhill park encroachments

1:56:36I'll just start with the second one as the high level summary there. So we did give

1:56:40a direction to staff in regards to the slownhill park encroachment issue

1:56:45In regards to the chief administrative officer 2026 performance objectives update

1:56:51We have actually a motion that's coming from closed session into the open session right now

1:56:56And I'll just ask a counselor karan uh to consider moving that please sure happy to move it seconded by counselor

1:57:03Richardson that the report 2026 chief administrative officer performance review proposed objectives dated january 20th 2026 be approved

1:57:13Great. Thank you very much and just before I call the vote on that because uh, this happens every year

1:57:19and what we changed several years ago was uh to actually have

1:57:24Once it's approved the ceo actually come in open session to do a delegation and presentation

1:57:31To everybody about what these objectives actually are and that will be happening in the next couple of weeks

1:57:36We're going to have terra come and and speak about that. So just so just so everyone knows from the open session

1:57:41She'll come and she'll speak about that in the uh here as well. Okay in a couple weeks. So uh with that

1:57:47I'll call the vote if that's okay everybody. Yep. Okay. Is anybody against?

1:57:54Nobody so that's unanimous. Thank you very much

1:57:57And that's the only two issues that we had for our in-camera and that's my summary for that

1:58:02So let's kick off our open session meeting now

1:58:06If stand if you're able, please as we recognize our national anthem

1:58:10So everybody will just have a moment of silent reflection before we move into our territorial acknowledgement

2:00:06Great. Thank you

2:00:08As we gather let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work here in Guelph a city built over rich indigenous histories

2:00:14We're guests here and should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land

2:00:19The people who live here today and the generations to come

2:00:22If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation, we should take pause

2:00:26And make those decisions with intention and gratitude

2:00:29This place we call Guelph is served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for many peoples over time

2:00:33But more specifically the Anahuanarok and the whole Nishoni

2:00:37This land is held as the treaty lands and territory with the mississaugas of the credit first nation

2:00:43Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman track and is part of a long-established traditional hunting grounds for the six nations of the Grand River

2:00:50Many first nations Inuit and Métis people who have come from across Turtle Island call Guelph home today

2:00:57Thank you. Is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest or any general nature there of for the items in front of us tonight?

2:01:07I'm not hearing anything not seeing anyone. So i'll consider that matter closed. We do have

2:01:14confirmation of the open minutes and that is from the meeting held on November 25th

2:01:19December 9th and 16th 2025

2:01:22And the open minutes of the committee the whole meeting that was held on December the 2nd 2025

2:01:27To be confirmed and as recorded and without being read with someone bubbling a busitil and hauser

2:01:35Thank you. Anything further on the minutes anybody?

2:01:40No, okay. I'll call the vote. Is anyone against those minutes?

2:01:44Okay, hearing and seeing no one that's unanimous. So I'll consider that matter closed

2:01:49We have a presentation to kick us off on our corporate

2:01:54climate action plan from both Ian Scott and

2:01:57Brian Hoyan and I'm going to ask

2:02:00Both of them to get prepared to come up and and give us that presentation

2:02:04And then after that we have a couple delegations as well

2:02:09So welcome to them, but Ian. I'll kick it on over to you right away. Go ahead

2:02:20I'm Ian Scott

2:02:23Thanks. Sorry. Good evening mayor and council. I'm Ian Scott general manager of facilities and energy management

2:02:30And today we are here presenting to you the corporate climate action plan

2:02:34This plan builds on momentum and work that the corporation is currently undertaking and has direct control over

2:02:40This includes electrophlying our transit and fleet along with investments into our buildings for energy reduction such as led lighting upgrades

2:02:48Building envelope upgrades and solar panel installations

2:02:52These investments have saved the corporation 11 million dollars since 2018

2:02:58And continue to save three million dollars annually on our utility bills

2:03:02The annual savings will continue to grow as utility rates increase into the future

2:03:08Moving forward this plan provides a roadmap for reducing energy and greenhouse gases across the city

2:03:14Cross city operations to meet the corporation's climate and energy reduction goals for race to zero and 100 renewable energy by 2050

2:03:24While there is still much work to do the information presented today and investments in the associated actions

2:03:30provides measurable impacts reductions and returns to the corporation

2:03:34And with that I will turn it over to brian huyan our manager of energy and climate change to present the corporate climate action plan

2:03:55Okay

2:03:59okay

2:04:00Back in may 2025 we presented the community call to climate action which detailed the focus areas and actions for all residents

2:04:08businesses and institutions in the city of guelph

2:04:11Referring back to the sphere of influence model

2:04:15municipalities operate across three levels

2:04:18The community call to climate action spoke to where the municipality has indirect control and limited or no control

2:04:26And plays more of a supporting role to foster and encourage climate action in the community like the guelph greener homes program

2:04:33free guelph transit bus rides

2:04:35and healthy landscape visits

2:04:39During that council meeting we also said we would come back to you and discuss the direct control part

2:04:48So this is the part this is the part where we're more focused on the ways we can support

2:04:53In how we run our business

2:04:55This would be optimizing the municipal operations and what the corporation can do with the assets we manage to save energy

2:05:02And reduce greenhouse gas emissions

2:05:08Defining further on energy and emissions for municipal operations

2:05:12This is a diagram that illustrates the corporate energy and emissions boundary

2:05:17Within the dash lines is our operations where we include

2:05:21the energy usage and emissions from all buildings

2:05:24Like city hall parks washrooms west end community center

2:05:28And also the more industrial and process driven facilities like water pumping stations and wastewater treatment at the water resource recovery center

2:05:36We also include things like street lights and traffic signals

2:05:40Also included is all of the fleet vehicles that drive around and provide services throughout the city

2:05:46Are also and these include vehicles like wealth transit buses ambulances plows fire trucks

2:05:53And we also look at the energy we generate like the biomethane or digester gas

2:05:56We recover from waste or the electricity from the solar panels on a bunch of our buildings

2:06:03Finally, we also need to consider things outside of our operations

2:06:06Specifically where we get our energy from

2:06:09What different types of energy and how clean or dirty they are

2:06:13Like where our electricity comes from say nuclear solar natural gas plants, etc

2:06:23So why a corporate climate action plan?

2:06:27The corporate climate action plan

2:06:29sets the direction and roadmap

2:06:31On strategic actions that are needed to continue building on our progress and get towards our targets

2:06:37And as we continue that progress through smart investments

2:06:41We keep reducing operating costs by lowering our utility bills and reduce exposure to increasing rates

2:06:50These cost savings really come from being good environmental stewards that eliminate resource waste and reduce greenhouse gas emissions that cause climate change

2:07:00Overall running a strategic fiscally responsible and environmentally conscious municipality is what wealth residents expect of the corporation

2:07:16As we've been at this for some time, it's good to check in on how we're doing

2:07:21Here's our progress for each year up to 2024

2:07:24Since we set the baseline back in 2018

2:07:28On the left in the blue bars is the total energy use

2:07:33This is the amount of energy from all different types of fuel we use

2:07:37Like electricity natural gas diesel gasoline

2:07:42Last year we used 27.5 million less kilowatt hour equivalent of energy than we did back in 2018

2:07:51This is more than a 17 drop compared to the 2018 baseline

2:07:57On the right in the gray bars is the greenhouse gas emissions per capita

2:08:03This accounts for how much of all of the different fuels and energy sources we use

2:08:08And how clean or dirty they are and puts that against wealth's population as an indicator of how the municipality is growing

2:08:16Here we are also seeing long-term reductions with more than an 11 drop from 2018 levels

2:08:28This progress is not only good for the planet. It's also good for the pocketbook

2:08:33Energy costs are a large part of the operating budget

2:08:36The annual spend on energy and fuel is around 14 million dollars

2:08:404 million of that on fleet fuels 10 million on facility energy

2:08:46On top of that energy rates fluctuate a lot excluding rates

2:08:50Dipping during covid overall the increase over time

2:08:55If we use the same amount of energy each year as we did in 2018

2:08:59And were charged at the actual rates

2:09:02Over the years we would have paid over three million dollars more than we have in real life

2:09:07This is what the top row is showing

2:09:09Our savings from escalating energy rates

2:09:12But we did better than that

2:09:16We did better than just maintaining our levels of energy usage

2:09:19In reality we became more energy efficient since 2018

2:09:23And lowered how much energy we consumed

2:09:26Every unit of energy we don't use that's a unit of energy we don't pay for

2:09:32By using less we saved more than 8.2 million dollars

2:09:35Putting this together since 2018 the accumulated savings from energy efficiency efforts has been over 11.2 million dollars

2:09:43Worthy of note

2:09:45The cost savings is even more when you add the millions of dollars of grants and rebates we've received for energy management projects

2:09:52Essentially investment in energy projects unlock grants and rebates that discount the capital costs

2:09:58So as we see good progress and cost savings

2:10:04There's a strong case to maintain the momentum and keep moving forward towards our climate change target

2:10:11Let's refresh from the climate change targets

2:10:14The municipality is a part of the community and supports wealths raised to zero

2:10:20By doing its part to help the community reduce per capita emissions by 63 by 2030 against the 2018 baseline

2:10:27And become a net zero carbon community by 2050

2:10:31Putting this in the context for the corporation

2:10:34And applying population growth projections

2:10:36To achieve 63 reduction by 2030 this works out to about 10 000 tons

2:10:42For the corporation to remove the 10 000 tons of carbon dioxide equivalent. They there are key areas of focus across the corporation

2:10:58Policies and standards such as training setting policies and operating procedures and tracking energy and energy

2:11:04Having high performing buildings

2:11:06Through reviewing building systems implementing energy retrofits and zero carbon new construction

2:11:12Optimizing process equipment to be more energy efficient through process upgrades and recovering waste heat

2:11:21Transitioning to low emissions fleet vehicles by right sizing the fleet

2:11:25Building charging infrastructure and going electric

2:11:29And generating renewable energy where we get fuel from the energy source

2:11:33And generating renewable energy where we get further utilization out of our assets by installing solar on facility roofs and convert waste to energy

2:11:43Diving into these areas of focus key strategic actions have been identified that will move the needle and achieve the 10 000 tons reduction

2:11:56For policies and standards

2:11:58Maintaining ISO 5001 is important as it is the systematic backbone of how we manage corporate energy and emissions

2:12:05By ensuring we track data identify opportunities develop action plans

2:12:10Implement those actions and monitor and verify performance

2:12:14It's one thing to install a new piece of energy efficient equipment. It's another to make sure you run it right to get the benefits

2:12:21HVAC systems for heating and cooling corporate facilities are the largest energy users when looking around the whole facility portfolio

2:12:29By implementing clear building temperature standards for the different zones

2:12:32We can better operate maintain and optimize the HVAC system with no capital cost

2:12:42for municipal facilities

2:12:44We need to consider both new and existing buildings and how to get them to be high performing

2:12:50For new buildings nothing comes for free

2:12:53When we build a new building and add it to our portfolio, we use more energy to build it and run it

2:12:59We have to ensure that we don't go out of control and aren't just adding in in a wasteful way

2:13:04New facilities like south the south end community center and baker library

2:13:08Are prime examples by meeting zero carbon building standards where they have been designed to be well insulated

2:13:14Use energy efficient heat pump technology throughout

2:13:16And recover heat when it would normally be wasted

2:13:20It greatly reduces that impact

2:13:23This also applies to our existing building stock too

2:13:27Through energy audits and building recommissioning we must continue to implement capital retrofit projects

2:13:33and operating changes

2:13:35Like upgrading HVAC systems to heat pumps optimizing building controls or led lighting retrofits

2:13:46Some facilities we have include industrial process equipment

2:13:49Although more complex than at bigger scale, there are key strategic actions that can yield significant emissions reduction and cost savings

2:13:58The organic waste processing facility

2:14:00Where residential green bin waste gets processed and converted to compost

2:14:04Is approaching the need for refurbishment in the coming years

2:14:08This is an opportunity to further optimize this process by introducing anaerobic digestion to recover methane and convert it

2:14:15To a renewable biofuel that can be sold and injected into the natural gas grid

2:14:20And used as a renewable alternative by others

2:14:25Anaerobic digestion isn't new to gulf

2:14:27The water resource recovery center has incorporated this into its wastewater treatment process for years

2:14:33This facility recovers the gases from the digester and burns it in engines that generate electricity and process heat

2:14:42As the cogen equipment and infrastructure are getting on in years

2:14:46They will need replacement in the future

2:14:49This is another enhancement opportunity

2:14:52Where process heat can be recovered from the wastewater stream and leaving it all

2:14:57Leaving all of the digester gas to be converted to a renewable biofuel that we can sell to the grid

2:15:03As mentioned there are more complex and bigger scale projects

2:15:08Further work is required to take the findings from preliminary investigations to a detailed level

2:15:13To determine more of the technical constraints as well as the capital requirements to determine how best to deliver these projects

2:15:25Significant emissions come from fossil fuels used to power our fleet vehicles

2:15:29By transitioning to low emissions fleet vehicles, we are reducing GHG emissions in a big way

2:15:36A lot of good work is already underway with the electrifying

2:15:39With electrifying the conventional 40-foot buses, the largest fleet grouping responsible for the most emissions

2:15:45With 19 electric buses now in service and charging infrastructure being incorporated into the new gulf transit and fleet services facility

2:15:53More electric buses can be used

2:15:55So we can continue to provide affordable public transit

2:15:59In an energy efficient way

2:16:02For mobility buses electric options are available and are being explored and evaluated for when life cycle replacement comes up

2:16:09Good progress is being made with light duty vehicles

2:16:12As more options become available on the market

2:16:16That said there are more complicated vehicles to electrify

2:16:19The solid waste packers another vehicle that does lots of travel also has a lot of heavy equipment on it that makes it tough to electrify

2:16:28Other municipalities and businesses have piloted electrified waste packers and we will monitor their progress and see what can be adopted

2:16:39Finally generating renewables is a way to offset our energy consumption and emissions

2:16:44And a way to get more utilization out of our sites to reduce energy costs or generate revenue

2:16:51The corporation has expanded its facilities over uh solar pv portfolio from 78 kilowatts to over 500 kilowatts over the past few years

2:17:01On a larger scale the east view landfill is a big opportunity to install ground mount solar on the lands that can be used that can't be used for much else

2:17:10The design of the system must consider continued gas management storm water and other environmental impacts

2:17:21Looking at these corporate strategic climate actions. There is a range of no cost or low cost measures through to large capital investments

2:17:29With the overall investment estimated at 247 million over 10 years

2:17:34alternative project delivery models will also be considered

2:17:39These actions lay out a practical path of how to invest resources

2:17:43And capital so we can build and improve at the times we need to replace infrastructure and equipment

2:17:49And do so in a more energy efficient manner

2:17:58And through these investments significant energy savings can be had

2:18:02Which as demonstrated reduces energy costs and mitigate risks

2:18:07forever increasing energy rates in a big way

2:18:11Not only is it smart money. It reduces corporate emissions by 12452

2:18:17tons of carbon dioxide equivalent

2:18:20Which gets us to our 63 reduction target levels and really moves the needle towards net zero by 2050

2:18:29And on that I will hand it back to Ian Scott

2:18:36Thank you, brian

2:18:38So the plan today or the plan before you today for council's approval as per the recommendation on the screen

2:18:45Presents core investments to move the corporation towards our goals of race to zero and 100 renewable energy by 2050

2:18:53The recommended investments have defined and measurable returns for the corporation in both energy and greenhouse gas reductions

2:19:01along with the associated cost savings

2:19:03This can be seen through the savings the city is currently experiencing from previous energy retrofits

2:19:09And replacements along with solar panel installations

2:19:13The greenhouse gas reductions and and savings will increase as the city progresses with transit and fleet electrification

2:19:20Many of the actions recommended within this plan are in alignment or have a direct impact on other key initiatives within the city

2:19:28Examples of this include long-term affordability by reducing our energy usage and associated costs

2:19:34Or indirectly supporting the community called a climate action by providing cleaner and more sustainable forms of public transportation

2:19:41This plan is the next step towards meeting the city's long-term goals with the associated actions

2:19:47Realizing a reduction of approximately 10 000 tons of carbon dioxide equivalent

2:19:51Meeting our interim target of 63 reduction for greenhouse gas emissions

2:19:57More work is still required to meet our long-term climate goals by 2050

2:20:012050 after the actions contained within this plan are completed

2:20:07Staff will continue to work to advance this plan and the associated actions

2:20:11Updates will be brought to council as appropriate through the multi-year budget or the corporate energy reporting as

2:20:18as items become more defined and as time progresses

2:20:22And thank you and with that we will turn it back over to you. Mr. Mayor and we'll be happy to answer any questions

2:20:29Great, thank you very much

2:20:31um, I think if you don't mind everybody we just have two delegations and we might as well hear

2:20:36From them and and then we can wrap it up with questions back and after they're done. Okay

2:20:41the first uh

2:20:43that we have on our list is martin collier

2:20:47and joining us, I believe by telephone

2:20:50And martin, I see your name on the screen. I believe you have to hit star six to unmute

2:20:57Hello, mayor

2:21:07Yes, we can hear you and it's no more than five minutes and uh, so I'll interrupt if you're getting close to that point

2:21:14But I'll turn it over to you martin. Your time will start when you start. Okay. Go ahead

2:21:20Okay. Hi, I'm martin collier as you know and a sustainable transportation planner and spokesperson for the residents for a safe speed vell avenue

2:21:27RSA we support sustainable transportation infrastructure where it meets the mobility needs of the most people at the lowest cost

2:21:35While reducing emissions projects like the emma url bridge and speed vell reconstruction ask

2:21:40Exaltor Bay issues related to our environment public safety and city finances, especially in this COVID altered and tariff

2:21:47tariff altered world we live in in terms of the corporate climate action plan the rsa recommends its staff update it to include

2:21:55transparent calculations evaluations and communications of environmental impacts from road and bridge construction projects

2:22:02This includes inviting ghg emissions from onsite and offslate construction of infrastructure

2:22:08We'd like to see this clause added to the city's procurement policy bylaw number

2:22:132018 20259 the contractors provide the same data when submitting tenders and while construction is taking place

2:22:20On the demand side of the equation

2:22:22We'd like to see free parking passes the free parking passes for 2400 city and police staff

2:22:28Be phased out the revenues should be earmarked to sustainable modes that reduce ghg

2:22:33Guelph brands itself is a progressive community making a difference

2:22:36But on the transportation front it appears we're failing where emissions are concerned

2:22:41According to local journalist adam donaldson 30 percent of the city's emissions come from 100,000 registered vehicles in guelph

2:22:48And guelph transit isn't providing a viable alternative

2:22:51Of course inbound vehicles from across the gtha contribute as well

2:22:55In relation to emissions that the city has control over the elephant in the room is how the selection and construction of road

2:23:01And bridge infrastructure increases co2 emissions

2:23:04Case in point is the mro bridge, which doesn't help the majority of vulnerable road users traveling along and across speed veil

2:23:11It was extremely depressing to watch the destruction of speed river habitat due to the construction of this bridge to nowhere

2:23:17Even though it's proposed to reduce emissions due to increased biking and walking which hasn't happened to date

2:23:23The bridge must be analyzed for embodied ghg spewed during construction operations

2:23:28This includes emissions from three sources first from materials and equipment that were imported from all over the world

2:23:35And subsequently trucked in from ontario and kebek

2:23:38And massive emissions spewing excavators bulldozers trucks drove in and out of the destruction site each day

2:23:44Diesel generators ran all week and often through weekends when nobody was working

2:23:49The manufacturing and installation of concrete and steel are two major contributors to climate change

2:23:54The bridge is constructed with 35 slabs of concrete each weighing five tons

2:23:59That's 175 tons shipped from rodney, we believe

2:24:03And four masses steel beams totaling 164 meters. I have no idea how much they weigh, but they are shipped

2:24:09900 clouds from kebek city

2:24:11Second is transport emissions from contractors

2:24:14There were maybe up to 50 companies working on site since habitat and climate destruction started in late 2023

2:24:21Male engineers contracted some laborers all who lived outside wealth drove their f 150s from locations 50 to 100 kilometers away

2:24:28For at least one month one movie construction

2:24:32drove

2:24:34Sorry, um, about 320 000 kilometers for the eight month project

2:24:38So it'll take at least 390 000 bicycle

2:24:42headbridge trips over to recover emissions from this one construction worker

2:24:47Third is the emissions by loss of natural co2 absorption due to destruction loss of habitat

2:24:53According to u of t professor shoshana sacks the calculation of the embodied ghc in a construction project requires first actor

2:25:00An assessment of the quantity and types of materials and energy needed to construct the facility and second the ghc

2:25:07intensity of the materials of energy used in construction

2:25:10I can go into more detail on that if you'd like

2:25:13Calculating and communicating ghc in a transparent way must happen at the planning stage, but also at the procurement stage if it gets that far

2:25:21Goodson services by law number

2:25:24201 a 20259 has a great definition of environmental sustainability

2:25:29The protection and enhancement of the climate ecology and natural resources for future generations through approaches that reduce carbon dependency

2:25:36Enhanced energy resilience conserve energy and resources

2:25:40Another thing that the city has control over but it's not mentioned in the staff report

2:25:44It's the free parking passes provided the 2400 city and police staff

2:25:48These should be phased out with revenues earmarked to sustainable modes that reduce ghc

2:25:54Eventually council should phase out free parking on all street city streets

2:25:58Which isn't free

2:26:00Hopefully that decision will be made through the city wide parking strategy

2:26:05So I don't have time to reiterate those first those three recommendations

2:26:09But we'll be glad to do that and we're grateful if you will support them

2:26:13I'm just sorry. I couldn't be there with you in person, but wanted to save time and admissions instead. Thank you

2:26:21Great and thank you for your delegation. We appreciate that. Is there any questions for martin at this time?

2:26:28No, okay. Thank you very much martin

2:26:31It's all clear. Thank you, sir

2:26:33Okay, take care

2:26:35Uh evan evan frary come on down

2:26:39Evan's here in person. Thank you for coming

2:26:43And you know the drill levin no more than five minutes. I'll turn it over to you whenever you're ready great. Thank you

2:26:56Thank you, mr. Mayor and

2:26:58members of council um professor

2:27:01Darya taran from the university of guelph was planning to co-present with me this evening

2:27:04But unfortunately he's come down with the flu and and unable to make it

2:27:09Um professor taran and I are in the early stages of a joint research project. I say and I us at emerge

2:27:16Um, and I'm here somewhat prematurely

2:27:19Um, however the corporate climate action plan encouraged us to share our intentions of this research project publicly this evening

2:27:26First I want to say how encouraged we are at the by the project staff has brought forward in the plan at the same time

2:27:32It's disappointing to see that five of the most significant projects fall outside of the city's 10 year plan 10 year capital plan

2:27:40That's where we believe that we can help

2:27:43Emerge sustainability in conjunction with professor taran from the university of guelph would like to advance

2:27:48One of those projects is a community call it project a climate project that we've called

2:27:54making climate lemonade

2:27:57When the world hands us a lemon let's make some lemonade

2:28:01In the plan that's before you tonight this project is referred to as the east fuel landfill site thus thus the the

2:28:09uh the lemon

2:28:11So the east fuel landfill site solar pv projects using available land at the landfill to generate solar power

2:28:19We want to explore explore the feasibility of delivering this as a community invested solar project in this model solar electricity is generated

2:28:29um

2:28:30Is generated and sold to the grid or to a large user?

2:28:34potentially the city of guelph

2:28:36The city would not be responsible for capital or operating costs. It would simply pay for the power it receives

2:28:43local residences

2:28:46Local residences and businesses could invest directly in the project with minimum investments of as small as a thousand dollars

2:28:54This isn't about large investors. It's about making climate solutions and investment opportunities

2:28:59Accessible to as much of the community as possible

2:29:03Instead of installing panels on their own rooftops community members would receive bond style payments over the length of the contract

2:29:10This also allows participation by renters homeowners the business the business community and without any of those without suitable rooftops

2:29:19Community solar is not a new idea

2:29:22There are a dozen examples across the Ontario including at least four projects that have been operating in the city of guelph

2:29:30For more than 10 years. There are also

2:29:33Ontario based companies at least two Ontario based companies that are capable of facilitating

2:29:39These type this type of a project and have done so in in the past at this scale

2:29:43We estimated a capacity at the site solar capacity at the site of approximately 11 megawatts

2:29:49Which aligns closely with the staff suggesting of somewhere between 10 and 15

2:29:54megawatts who are a little conservative. I think on that end

2:29:57there are also um, we asked um, pardon me

2:30:01for context

2:30:02The city staff are suggesting 10 to 15 megawatts for context

2:30:07The entire city the entire community of guelph the city city's average peak electricity demand is 250 megawatts

2:30:15So as you can see 10 to 15 megawatts is a sizable amount of power that we could bring into the city

2:30:21what makes um, um, what makes making climate limit lemonade different is the challenge of building solar infrastructure on a former landfill site

2:30:30Fortunately, there are examples we can learn from from in Calgary the shepherd landfill solar project was completed in 2018

2:30:37and 2019 and now generates enough electricity for approximately 750 homes

2:30:43To put that into context the size of the project that we would be talking about at the land of the east view landfill site

2:30:50Would be significantly over the the amount the same amount of electricity significantly over a thousand homes

2:30:56Hamilton has studied solar development

2:30:59um solar development on its closed

2:31:02A glanford landfill site and saskatoon operates solar alongside its landfill gas

2:31:07Collection system like these projects east view will come with technical and regulatory challenges

2:31:14We are currently in the early stages of developing the research scope and criteria and we recognize this is a long-term effort that will take years to develop

2:31:22There is considerable amount of background information. We need already

2:31:26That's already available throughout the city's website or ask of council this evening is a simple one that we request assistance from staff

2:31:33In accessing possible additional information as the research progresses

2:31:38the information

2:31:40Would allow us to better define the scope of our research and assess whether a community invested solar project at east view is feasible

2:31:47We look forward to sharing our findings with council and the broader community and helping to build a movement that gives wealth residents

2:31:53The opportunity to invest in a local renewable energy project

2:31:57Take meaning and make climate lemonade

2:32:04All right. Thank you. Uh evan we appreciate your your delegation

2:32:08Um, especially if you're not feeling the best. So thank you for making the effort

2:32:14Um, I know I have a question, but it looks like I saw some hands. So I'm just going to go uh, feel

2:32:20Sorry, councillor Allt and karan and uh galler

2:32:24Uh, and then if they don't ask my question, then I will go uh, but you go uh first council

2:32:30Thank you very much, uh mayor bob. Oh, sorry got three

2:32:35Uh, uh through you to uh to mr. Ferrari the delegate mr. Ferrari

2:32:41um

2:32:42I appreciate your metaphor of making climate lemonade

2:32:45um, but um

2:32:47What I heard from you. I think is an elevator pitch. I was wondering if you could outline uh in in perhaps broader terms

2:32:56Uh, how this community investment project

2:32:59might work and

2:33:02You'd you'd mentioned other jurisdictions, but what I'm really curious about is guelph

2:33:06And so I'm wondering how guelph compares to other communities in Ontario

2:33:10I guess if you have to go overseas to talk about it fair enough, but but I am quite curious about this

2:33:16Um through you mr. Mayor Guthrie, um

2:33:19There there are sort of two aspects to this one is the actual landfill and there are multiple examples of landfills being turned into solar

2:33:26But um through you mr. Mayor, I believe the councillor is specifically asking about the the business model the actual model of what how

2:33:34Catch me if you could yeah, so so so there are a couple of different entities that there are there are two

2:33:39relatively large entities one one, uh, that's a solar not-for-profit co-op with over 80 million dollars worth of assets

2:33:46In ontario solar assets within ontario and it's built on this model that essentially

2:33:52While there may be some

2:33:54Some debt on the on the capital costs of the initial project that the bulk that that might be through traditional lenders

2:34:03The bulk of the the bulk of the the financing of the program

2:34:07Of these programs are by people investing small amounts like thousand dollars

2:34:13It's essentially exactly the same thing that many of you on council will know is the bond the bonds that uh, 10c issues

2:34:20As as an operation

2:34:23That they're financing an awful lot of their debt by going by going down this path

2:34:27there are

2:34:30As it turns out not that

2:34:33Full disclosure i'm the chair of a solar co-op hearing walf and we have approximately 300 kilowatts worth of projects

2:34:42All of our board members are volunteers

2:34:45We don't have the capacity to take on this type of a project in no way shape or form

2:34:50That's wearing that my hat as the chair of that of that solar project. Um, but um, uh, there's also another company called

2:34:58said co that that has at least three if not four

2:35:03Um, uh solar co-ops as well where people have invested as little as a thousand dollars or as much as 50 thousand dollars into each one of those things

2:35:11And and how they uh, how that essentially that's the financing model of being able to come up with the capital essentially to

2:35:17To to start the business in the first place and it's paid out over over the length of the contract in Ontario. It's through the through the

2:35:26Uh, the contract is guaranteed through the Ontario power authority as some of you will know as as

2:35:31that have solar on your house you're guaranteed that that, um, um, uh, that amount of

2:35:37Of revenue over a period of of 20 years

2:35:41I hope that's a little clearer your worship

2:35:45Um, uh, thank you

2:35:47Maybe the harder question because I understand what you said that they're uh, just yes or no

2:35:52That it would appear that there's community interest, but the harder question. I'll ask this to uh staff as well

2:35:58How does this fit into the corporate energy strategy?

2:36:01uh, well the simple thing would be that that, um

2:36:04What we're looking at is can

2:36:07Can the model be used in such a way where at the end of the day the city would put out a tender

2:36:14For companies to come forward with a business model that appeared like this

2:36:18But essential but what that what the city would be looking for

2:36:22Is a power purchase agreement with that company or with that co-op and what that power purchase agreement would be is is

2:36:30Currently the the city is is buying electricity an awful lot of electricity

2:36:34And this would provide the city to the opportunity to buy 100% renewable renewable energy from that specific

2:36:41facility, so that's ultimately where we would like to go

2:36:45We know there are going to be many trap doors along the way and and, um, um

2:36:51We're not shy. We're going to give it we want to give it our best shot and see how far we can take this

2:36:56Thank you very much

2:36:58Councillor Caron and then goller, please

2:37:00Thank you. Along a similar line, you know capital investment seems to be the

2:37:05You know the key roadblock to these large scale projects and you know our staff have brought for

2:37:11Our their best recommendation with the resource we as council have given them

2:37:15Um, but we know there's payback and you've outlined in your presentation. There's payback

2:37:19Um, we also know there's more than one lemon and i'm just wondering why you or perhaps it's because it's in the presentation

2:37:27Why east view is the the focus?

2:37:30Um, because we do have you know pollinator habitat there and we have other projects happening there disc golf, etc

2:37:37We maybe it's my algorithm, but I get all kinds of pop-ups in my social media about

2:37:43parking lots

2:37:44We have the west end parking lot and we have the vik road parking lot and and that parking lot solar arrays can be one to two acres

2:37:52And can also you know have co-benefits of not having to plow those parking lots because there's warming infrastructure underneath

2:37:59As well as storage on site and closer to actual residences and homes and buildings

2:38:06um

2:38:07I wonder if you could just talk about

2:38:10What lemons are the best lemons to choose in this lemonade making lemonade stand

2:38:17um

2:38:19Three three, mr. Mayor

2:38:21Um, uh, we landed on that what we also are considering imico and we and the only reason we're talking about this one is because it's what was in

2:38:30What was in the report? Um, we were we were also putting some effort into the into the imico site

2:38:36I understand that there are a whole other set of trapdoors associated with that and students including some legal issues that

2:38:42that have been

2:38:45It that have been ongoing

2:38:47You make excellent examples of all the others, but the short answer to your question is the economy of scale

2:38:53The size of the east view landfill site

2:38:56Is such that enables us to put somewhere between 10 and 15 megawatts on there

2:39:01Imico in comparison would be approximately 1.8 megawatts. So it's not you know, it's you start understanding the size and the scale of it

2:39:10Um, and and I think your instincts on parking garages is a good thing

2:39:15um

2:39:17Uh, of course the economics of it tend to be different and I'm and I'm

2:39:23Doing this off the side of my desk here on this part of it is that um, uh

2:39:30Going with solar carports the mounting systems wind up being significantly more expensive than ground mounting, you know

2:39:38Ground mounting systems. So the cost per or what what's called the the lcoe the the levelized cost of

2:39:44energy over the price over the price the sorry the

2:39:49Uh, the time frame of the of the contract would be significantly greater. That's not to say that it won't work

2:39:55But I think it's good to be looking at all of those

2:39:58It was a size issue and the larger the system the lower the the lcoe becomes with a larger project

2:40:06Granted there are other challenges

2:40:10caller, please

2:40:13Um, your worship, uh, thank you for your presentation. Mr. Ferrari

2:40:16Um, very exciting prospect. I just have you already reached out to city staff and presented them this project

2:40:23Or is this the first time that they're hearing about it? Uh, I I I did have a conversation

2:40:28With uh with mr. Hoi-Yan on friday. Just to say I don't want to I don't want to blindside you on monday

2:40:34We we we wanted to to have a little more work involved with the the the scope

2:40:40Um of of the research project that we're working on so we're still working on that piece

2:40:44But I I felt it this was an appropriate place to bring it forward because I I think it's an idea that

2:40:50that provides

2:40:53A wonderful opportunity for collaboration and and I think for creative thinking on all of this

2:40:59Yeah, yeah, I I would agree. Thank you so much for bringing this to us

2:41:03And I look forward to asking some more questions of staff. Thank you

2:41:07Great thanks. I didn't see anybody else all this quickly say pretty much did odor what my colleagues said they did kind of capture some of my questions already

2:41:15Thank goodness because now I only have one question left

2:41:18Um, so it's a little bit along the lines of what councillor Caron said is and I'll ask staff this as well

2:41:24But from an economies of scale or options perspective, I'm almost wondering if it would be better for us to have like a catalog

2:41:32of all of our assets

2:41:35across the entire city

2:41:37All the rooftops all the all the parking garages all the park what what like the landfill included

2:41:44and and almost have that as a

2:41:46as an open bidding sort of

2:41:49Bidding maybe the wrong word but an open process of a stock gate of all of our assets that could

2:41:56accommodate this and then open it up for

2:41:59Uh, you know groups to be able to come forward and say look I I can't afford to do

2:42:05You know, we can't we can't do this for this reason, but we can do it here. So it's almost like a

2:42:11uh, a plotting of a map across our bird's eye view of all of our

2:42:16Available assets where this kind of idea could happen

2:42:20And then groups could come in and go like there could be one group that goes

2:42:23I I can handle the big one but there could be seven other groups that go

2:42:27I can do a medium sized one or a small sized one

2:42:30But at least then we have a kind of a a lay of the land of all of the assets that might be doable for this type of idea

2:42:37Is that something that that might be warranted here?

2:42:41over and above just what the landfill site is and

2:42:45The second part of that question is have you seen that sort of because i'm just thinking about it on the fly

2:42:50But have you seen that sort of idea happen in other cities at all where they've they've mapped out the available assets

2:42:57To do this type of infrastructure from a community-based

2:43:01fundraising initiative

2:43:03And maybe co-op ownership

2:43:05Other than what the idea that i'm just coming up with on the fly

2:43:09um

2:43:11Mr. Mayor, I think that you've got a number of questions there

2:43:14The first one is I don't know of other municipalities that have taken that approach

2:43:18But I believe staff has a good inventory of where potential projects are at least they I know that they've done that kind of analysis in the past

2:43:27um, and and I know that historically just to put things into into in the context that

2:43:31I believe mr. Ho-yan mentioned that the city has about 500 kilowatts of um, um, of um

2:43:38Of solar capacity right now 400 of which is across the street

2:43:43So there's another hundred but those are primarily in very small projects

2:43:4810 kilowatt microfit projects if i'm not mistaken at the time and

2:43:53And I get why that was done at the time even on on buildings that are that could

2:43:59In some cases accept larger capacity

2:44:02but there may be

2:44:05There are

2:44:06Permitting issues around putting a second project and it's not permitting issues from the city standpoint but from the the the

2:44:13Ontario power authority in the iso that um, not sorry the iso not the power authority

2:44:20That would that would change it. So it's a there is a bureaucratic side of that as well

2:44:25But the concept I think I I like where you're going and I think the concept of saying

2:44:32We don't want to build it. We want to buy the electricity come and impress us

2:44:37I think is is is ultimately

2:44:40To put the city in a driver's seat under those circumstances and if and if the research that that we're doing can help move along that path and then

2:44:50We'd like to help as much as possible. Okay. Well, look, I really appreciate

2:44:54I appreciate you answering that and your question and I see nothing further

2:44:58So I'll come back to us to just engage with staff now, but thanks. Hope you feel better too. Thank you

2:45:03Yeah

2:45:04Okay, I see a few hands going up

2:45:06But I I did know that councillor Goller wanted to I think move the motion that was here councillor Allt

2:45:11You want a second if that's okay?

2:45:13councillor uh, galler I think had a question of staff

2:45:17And then I'm going to go to alt and then I see Gibson on the screen as well. Okay

2:45:23Thank you and through your worship to staff. Um, first off, thank you so much for this

2:45:27Report, it's it's really really good to see where we are and where we're going and I really appreciate you shown as the reality of

2:45:35The funding limitations of how far you can go

2:45:39in the given time

2:45:41Along the lines of what mr. Ferraris said

2:45:45Are there opportunities when we look at some of these large projects that are partially funded to

2:45:51Borrow internally to to fill out those costs. I mean one of the big projects that I see here is the the partial

2:45:59That is partially funded as the internal fleet

2:46:03conversion is there an opportunity to do that

2:46:06in lieu of finding new dollars for that or for the

2:46:10High efficiency building upgrades if we know that there will be cost savings

2:46:15Is there an opportunity to borrow internally to fill out knowing that there will be

2:46:20cost savings in the future

2:46:27So through the mayor to you counselor goller, uh, some of these items are

2:46:32What we will be bringing back to council as part of the multi-year budget as well

2:46:36Or the alternative project delivery methods that we talked about before

2:46:40This is really the start of the plan and we have more work to do and so yes

2:46:44We will look at those items that as you have suggested and where they fiscally make sense and we'll work with our

2:46:49Finance team to put that together as part of budgets in the future

2:46:56Thank you for that

2:46:58when when

2:47:00Are we looking at receiving that you know next step information of of that alternative funding method then

2:47:09so

2:47:11This is a long-term plan. Uh, our goal is 25 years in the future. So this isn't a

2:47:19A lot of these projects are large capital projects large capital investments long-term projects

2:47:25that do take time to go through the process and so

2:47:29This isn't a we're going to come back to council later this year or next year on some of these items. This will take

2:47:37Multi-year budgets and budget cycles to get through and and develop these projects

2:47:43Into the city's work plan. Yeah. Yeah, I I appreciate that fully. These are big ones

2:47:49I'm looking at items like the building energy retrofits the 12 million dollar that is not

2:47:55in the 10-year funding window

2:47:58But we have here between 20 25 and 20 29 we could realize

2:48:03350

2:48:05What is it tons per year? So when I look at that on page 14 of the presentation

2:48:12That 350 is that something that we are not going to realize because the funding is not present

2:48:17for that

2:48:23So

2:48:26It's hard to give an exact answer to that unfortunately because there are instances where our asset renewal we can

2:48:35Provide those upgrades where the existing equipment matches and fits

2:48:39There are other instances where if we don't have the funding to do

2:48:43Ancillary upgrades like upgraded structural

2:48:46We can't upgrade the equipment to the full energy efficient potential. So that's

2:48:51That's where we sit with the funding that we have in our asset renewal accounts right now

2:48:57Okay, okay. And what I'm hearing is that the exploration of of borrowing internally is not something that that is in your work plan for this year

2:49:06That that we could do

2:49:08I'm uh through through the mayor. I'm gonna

2:49:12Just jump in here

2:49:15Um

2:49:16I would just say that through our budget and through all of our financing and capital planning

2:49:22We are internal borrowing already

2:49:25To a high degree if you recall as it relates to our growth and because of the the development charge

2:49:32Uh exemptions and as well as just the the downturn in in the pace of housing right now. So, um, I would just say we we

2:49:40Absolutely look at internal borrowing all the time. We are actively involved in it

2:49:45And um, and really this is about trying to look at as many alternative financing options that we can

2:49:52To to be able to move these types of projects forward. So we're looking for grants where like the the

2:49:59Having this plan

2:50:01Helps us now to focus as we look for financing

2:50:06options

2:50:07Okay, I really appreciate that. Thank you. And I hope that many

2:50:10Grant opportunities come our way in the next couple of years

2:50:13Then my second set of questions going along the lines of what mr. Ferrari said

2:50:18Does the city have the ability to do that?

2:50:22crowd funding sort of project or would we have to go to a

2:50:26non-profit third party to do that sort of work, you know, could we

2:50:31Choose out to to build the

2:50:33um

2:50:34The east view solar plant as a community funded

2:50:38Project by the city or is that you know beyond the scope of what we should be doing at a municipality?

2:50:45um, so through the mayor

2:50:47I in in the past I had looked into a bit of this

2:50:51The the bonds and and the community bonds. Um, and so I I can't recall in the moment here

2:50:58But it is something that I think we can look into

2:51:01um, I just it would be something we need to report back on in terms of

2:51:06the the city's authority and and the legislative framework for that, um, but uh

2:51:12But um, that is something we can probably look into in a bit more of a shorter term to understand

2:51:17I don't know if we would report back to council

2:51:19Uh, immediately, but it's in it's in scope for for understanding that

2:51:24Okay, okay. Thank you

2:51:26And along those lines if you will be exploring that, you know

2:51:30Is that something that could be done in the next year or two to to look at the visibility of either doing it ourselves or going to

2:51:37third parties that have the experience and having them work with us to build out these

2:51:43um energy generation projects

2:51:48Um, yeah, I would I'll just through the mayor

2:51:51Yes, we can be we will be looking at those types of things in the shorter term and and that will then inform longer term planning

2:51:58And these ideas and how we how we start moving the needle on financing

2:52:02So I think all of those will be in the shorter term kind of investigation stage

2:52:08Okay, and and then in terms of um the feedback to council and to the public

2:52:13Would we be looking at next year around this time the next report will give us more information or would there be any time

2:52:20before that

2:52:27I'll just uh, maybe I'm gonna uh, just ask uh, Ian to uh

2:52:32Jump in here on the the annual reporting that we do as it relates to

2:52:37Climate and and they'll probably be that would probably be the the time in which we're giving those updates

2:52:43But may I defer over to to the team?

2:52:46uh through the mayor to you counselor goller

2:52:54yes, I I

2:52:57think I agree with

2:52:59cao baker that

2:53:01The annual reporting would be

2:53:04probably the place where we could

2:53:06respond to that

2:53:08Or through projects in the multi-year budget cycle as well

2:53:13would be another place that we could if

2:53:15there was

2:53:16some investigation that

2:53:18made sense for the corporation

2:53:20Perfect. I I really appreciate that. Thank you. And on my last question through your worship

2:53:25uh, do you need direction to to have conversations with emerge and with mr.

2:53:31Ferrari about this or would you be doing that anyways as part of the research that you're going to do?

2:53:35Uh through the mayor to you counselor goller. No, we would be doing that anyways

2:53:41Okay, thank you and to alt please

2:53:44Thank you very much mayor Guthrie. Um, I only have one question for staff and it really is a follow-up

2:53:49but one of the things that uh, that I'd like to two things I'd like to state first of all

2:53:54I don't want to get um bogged down in just this particular initiative because I think that what we're here for is the

2:54:01The corporate energy strategy as much as anything else

2:54:03But what I do like about what has been proposed is that this

2:54:07Provides a bit of an amalgam of the community energy initiative and our corporate energy strategy by pulling the two together

2:54:15Eight years later, but really the question that I have is

2:54:20In in my mind the way mr. Ferrari presented this this does fit into the corporate energy strategy

2:54:27And I look to you if you wouldn't mind if you could please comment upon that

2:54:32I mean there's alignment. Sorry to you

2:54:41counselor all through through the mayor

2:54:43um

2:54:44There definitely is alignment in terms of you know renewable energy generation and how that will assist in in

2:54:51offsetting our energy usage and reducing our emissions

2:54:55um

2:54:56As we were discussing

2:54:58Just through the other questions too about that financing gap and whatnot too. So there are alternatives or

2:55:04considerations that we can have to to move those projects forward

2:55:09um

2:55:12I just want to to caution though like

2:55:16There are complexities and constraints when dealing with such a large-scale project

2:55:21also working with uh, you know a landform like the landfill in terms of the gas monitoring that we have to do there

2:55:27As well as you know, there was mentioned about

2:55:30The lands and other uses there in the environmental heritage

2:55:34The natural heritage aspects of it

2:55:36So that was all considered as proposing this to make sure that we're looking at just the unusable lands

2:55:43um

2:55:44So not impacting as well say pollinator parks or or I think it was disc golf that was mentioned

2:55:50um

2:55:52And then also just looking at from a solar optimization and what makes sense

2:55:56From a solar irradiance just where the sun is shining on that southern slope

2:56:01And thank you as I said, I don't want to just pick on or cite this particular aspect of what we're doing

2:56:07I think that we we need to be very mindful about

2:56:11about building

2:56:13Refurbishment new buildings so on and so forth

2:56:16I expect that much of this is also going to be affected by changing

2:56:20Construction standards as well moving into the future

2:56:23So we are really looking at a plan that will evolve over time as as national and provincial standards change as well

2:56:30Would that be correct?

2:56:36Through you mr. Mayor to the councillor Allt. Yes

2:56:39We're always monitoring the Ontario building code looking at how we can make improvements

2:56:44On top of that, you know as we see it with the south end community center and baker being

2:56:48Going over and beyond the the Ontario building code and and achieving the the zero carbon building

2:56:54design standard as per the Canadian Green Building Council

2:56:58And it it's smart

2:57:01In the way that we operate and looking at the overall life cycle cost

2:57:04Of running these buildings. We also have to consider technology as well as that's changing

2:57:08So we're constantly adapting and and seeing where we are applying these technologies in a suitable manner

2:57:15Thank you very much. Very happy to support the report

2:57:18Okay, and uh councillor Gibson is last go ahead councillor Gibson. Yep. Thank you through mr. Mayor

2:57:22Thank you to staff for a good a great presentation

2:57:26A couple of questions and maybe a couple of takeaways

2:57:30The the micro fit projects that we have installed at the city those are

2:57:37Previously installed through I gather the micro fit program, but are they are they contracted for 20 years back to the grid?

2:57:45They're not net metering for our own energy use at this point. We're selling that energy back to the grid for the time being

2:57:53Through you mr. Mayor to councillor Gibson. Uh, yes, that's correct. So um the smaller micro fit sites which were 10 kilowatts and less

2:58:02They do have the contract with at the time the Ontario power authority now with the ISO

2:58:08It is a 20 year contract

2:58:10They weren't based on the the install date of when they were so some of them were kind of in later years

2:58:17And yes, they are being sold to the ISO for them

2:58:21Right. Thank you. I assume this so so when that 20 year contract comes up

2:58:26um

2:58:26That's when I'm assuming and when you we talk about buying someone else's power or someone else's got the power

2:58:33Are ready to sell to us. We're assuming that um those contracts would likely turn into a net metering contract

2:58:41Not rather than a straight sale back to the grid. Am I am I safe in assuming that or is there a chance to

2:58:46renegotiating keep selling to the grid?

2:58:51through you mr. Mayor um

2:58:54I'm not so

2:58:56It's my understanding however, I would have to confirm this but yes that they would transfer over to say a net meter

2:59:03Or a behind the meter load displacement arrangement. I haven't heard any any um any cases where it would be direct fed

2:59:11At that size

2:59:14Direct sell to the to the grid that that's my understanding as well. Thank you for clarifying

2:59:18um, so just a little bit about again just to talk about the complexities and I'm not going to spend too much time on the

2:59:24On the east field east side, but the current l t2 electricity procurement program in ontario

2:59:31There's no longer financial incentives associated with certain technologies. So to my understanding

2:59:37I'm reading it here from the website that it's technology neutral as in solar now competes with wind competes with hydro competes with bioenergy for

2:59:45grid contracts not net metering contracts, but grid contracts. So my question is

2:59:51um

2:59:52Even if we wanted to I'm not pouring cold water on this but even if we wanted to say

2:59:57build a partnership that

2:59:59Created a project life like maybe we had an association of power producers in Ontario approach us and say we'd like to

3:00:05lease the east v landfill and propose something back to the

3:00:09IESO for for power select that would be

3:00:12That would be almost like a competitive bid process to see if there was interested out there to see if someone wanted to

3:00:18contract create a

3:00:20A proposal to the IESO

3:00:23It would be less in our control unless we wanted to net meter to ourselves

3:00:32Through you mr. Mayor to council Gibson

3:00:35um

3:00:36Yes, uh, we we would have to I mean if if we were to go through something like the the lt2 um

3:00:44Competitive sale to direct grid

3:00:47That could be a way to go about it and we would probably have we would likely have to be cured for those services and

3:00:53Determine the commercial terms that are going to be

3:00:56Through that project right in terms of ownership and and who is doing what and what proponents we'd want to look at

3:01:03So as we develop say if we go down that route the terms of reference

3:01:06um

3:01:07We would be still in the position to to set those terms as we see the project going

3:01:13However, it would be in the framework of say an lt2 program or like where we'd be competing with other projects

3:01:21For that for that energy space. Okay. I'm gonna flip switch this because I'm really interested in the bio collection

3:01:26Program that you're you've talked about. I think I was aware of that almost 10 years ago now

3:01:31you guys were looking at that as a heat source or something like that at the

3:01:36Solid at the waste resources. Um, the wastewater resource

3:01:40Facility, I think that's really exciting. Is that energy going to be used to power the facility?

3:01:46And not as a contract back to the grid am I correct in understanding that?

3:01:56Uh through you mr. Mayor to council Gibson. So currently there is digester gas that is being

3:02:02collected at at the wastewater treatment plant or the water resource recovery center

3:02:06Currently that is being run through the cogeneration

3:02:10Engines and it is powering the wastewater treatment process equipment

3:02:15As well as we're recovering heat off of that to feed or to keep the digesters warm. It's a process heat

3:02:23um

3:02:25What is being proposed here and yet still to be determined and detailed?

3:02:29But in some initial investigation is is looking at alternative ways of doing this

3:02:34So we can continue on with a cogen like facility

3:02:38And continue on doing that or there is opportunity to recover waste heat from the wastewater stream

3:02:46Have that be recovered as heat for the digesters

3:02:51And then allowing us to capture more of that digester gas and not having to burn them in the cogen

3:02:57engines

3:02:58and then

3:03:00Almost like a fit contract but for renewable or sorry for natural gas

3:03:05sell it to

3:03:07The likes of end bridge as renewable natural gas. That's great

3:03:11Um, thank you for that explanation. So two comments to end with my last tour of the wastewater treatment plant

3:03:17I remember there being a large flume of water and it was a very consistent flow of water

3:03:22I think it was two or three maybe even four cubic meters per second of flow

3:03:25through this concrete flume and I always wondered what it would look like to

3:03:31Bring in a consultant or bring in someone who who understands the business well and talk about a kinetic turbine or a hydrokinetic turbine

3:03:36To go into that flume because I gather it's a very consistent 24 hours a day flow that could be easily captured

3:03:43For for quick renewable energy generation. I'll leave that with you. That's a comment

3:03:49The last comment I'll make is that I think I talked about this about 10 years ago too

3:03:53Is about the common currency that's in this file

3:03:56If financial return on investment is your currency is what you're looking for

3:04:00You can find it if ghd remissions reductions is your currency and you want to see that in this file

3:04:06You can find it and I think it's a great. Um

3:04:09I think it's a great unifying topic and I appreciate staff's effort on this. Thank you

3:04:15Great. Thank you very much councillor kipson

3:04:18So it's already been moved and seconded and I'll just make a quick comment to say thank you very much to staff for this

3:04:24This is this is a maturing. I think in our in this area

3:04:28It's something that council really wanted this term to to see more of and more communication of

3:04:35I've I've started to hear

3:04:37feedback from community members and much how much they've appreciated the annual reports

3:04:41About the presentation that you brought to us in may of last year

3:04:45I've even talked to some about this here to that's in front of us today

3:04:48And it's just ongoing sort of positivity that I've seen

3:04:53Come from this type of an opportunity to present these types of things

3:04:56Because people are interested in them and I think as councillor kipson said

3:05:00Depending on where you're coming from you can see both the environmental benefits and the financial benefits as well

3:05:06It also as our cio said because I wrote it down here myself and then she said it

3:05:10But was this is a great opportunity for us from an advocacy point of view

3:05:14We we can now I can and whoever's talking to ministers or whoever can now actually point to this report and be like we need money for this

3:05:21Oh, this this fits this, you know grant opportunity

3:05:25So even just by bringing this up is a really great opportunity for us to know more about the asks

3:05:30That we might have with upper levels of government or other people

3:05:33And then my final just take away and you can just take it away. It's just

3:05:36And if it's not a good idea, I'm fine to hear back into the day for you to say no

3:05:41But the idea of sort of taking

3:05:43A look at all of the assets that we have that might be able to be leveraged into sort of energy or

3:05:49Options I I don't know. I think that's kind of a neat idea

3:05:53So just take it away. I just don't have to do it

3:05:55But if it's something that you would ever need council direction on or whatever just like if you think it's

3:06:01Something of value. I would love to explore that a little bit more

3:06:05And in the meantime, you know

3:06:08our delegate Evan

3:06:10Mentioned his partnership with someone from the university if there if there is that ability for staff to

3:06:16Continue to engage on that opportunity just to get some more research value

3:06:21Looking into maybe the site to see if there's opportunities there. I personally think it's a great idea

3:06:28So I would just leave that with you as a comment to take away to check that out

3:06:31So with that, I'll call the vote. Is there anyone against this?

3:06:37It's unanimous. So again, thank you very very much for for this. We really appreciate it

3:06:42We only have one more item in front of us today and it is going to be let me just get to my

3:06:51It's a petition on the parkland development fees at 53 Woodside road

3:06:56Just we only have one delegation that's going to come up

3:06:59Gary Scanlon in a second if you don't mind Gary, I'm just going to ask

3:07:03Councillor Caron just to just to kind of give us a little bit of an overview of

3:07:08The issue that's here and then and then after she's done feel free to come right on down. Okay

3:07:13Councillor Caron. Sure. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. This item's come before us after

3:07:19basically about a two-year period

3:07:21Where it came to the attention of my colleague in word five Kathy Downer and myself about a year ago

3:07:28and

3:07:30You know the the applicants

3:07:33Are following this process because it's the only process available to them

3:07:37They have followed all the directions that that the process has allowed

3:07:42It's not very often in my terms of council that we've ever, you know, I think two maybe two or three petitions that have come before us

3:07:49Of this nature. So I think we'll go to the delegation and they'll present their case

3:07:55and

3:07:57And hopefully this will be a very quick resolution. I do believe this is a very unique one-off situation

3:08:03A sandwiching of permit permits applications

3:08:07Over three different bylaws. So

3:08:09I'll turn it over to back to the the mayor to

3:08:14Hear the delegation

3:08:15I do have motions when when the delegation is complete. Yeah, as soon as the delegation's uh, don't go right back to uh, to you

3:08:23So thank you very much for for bringing it forward

3:08:26And gary, uh, thank you for coming back again

3:08:30We appreciate it. So, uh

3:08:33Please know you have five minutes and uh, you'll hear a chime at the four minute 30 second mark as your warning

3:08:38If you need the whole five minutes, so be it if you don't so be it

3:08:41Just in case there's a question as a follow-up just stay there

3:08:44There may not be but please go right ahead at the time. We'll start when you're ready. Thank you. Um, okay

3:08:53Just to make sure that I know how to

3:08:58The top one. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Mr. Mayor and Mr. Council staff. Thank you for

3:09:05The opportunity. Uh, we wanted

3:09:11Doesn't seem to be working

3:09:16It's the top one. Yeah

3:09:19Oh, there we go. Thank you

3:09:21So, um, obviously through uh, council, you know, uh, the reason why we're here

3:09:26We were here when you were considering, uh, an amendment to your current bylaw

3:09:32Basically that one was to

3:09:34remove

3:09:36alterations and additions from

3:09:39Having to pay the cash and lou and the parkland

3:09:41Um, we didn't that didn't provide for demolitions. I that

3:09:47Generally, we think it should be I can give some perspectives on that

3:09:50But I want to stay on the on course

3:09:53The property that we are is in question 53 Woodside road. It was purchased by my son and daughter-in-law

3:10:01July of 2023

3:10:03The intent was redeveloping it into a modern home the original home was four bedrooms

3:10:09But it was a side split with an open carport now. It's a newly constructed home once again four bedrooms two stories

3:10:16And uh with a full two car garage

3:10:21Basically the increase in the square footage you can see that it's a four bedroom to a four bedroom

3:10:25so from definitions of

3:10:28Of development charges. It's basically this um the same density

3:10:32However density is defined slightly different in the bylaw where a 50 percent increase would activate the requirement to make a payment

3:10:40Now this 50 percent increase is solely in areas of kitchen and general living

3:10:44in

3:10:45areas

3:10:46The uniqueness and thank you for using those words because I think we are unique

3:10:51through this process of looking to demolish and then get a building permit in December 2023

3:10:58My daughter-in-law was in conversation with the building department

3:11:03She said that they were going to apply for the permits in january

3:11:07The building official indicated that there was no rush

3:11:11You can uh if you wanted to start construction in may you've got until the end of march probably in order to put those submissions in

3:11:19um

3:11:20If we had not gotten that advice what would have happened was we would be paying about 21 000 less than what ultimately had to be paid

3:11:29So it was the direction or kind of the um

3:11:33Suggestion through the building department that actually caused us to incur an extra 21 000. That's where the uniqueness is

3:11:41We had in order to ensure that the uh construction gets going in may we actually put in the uh demolition permit

3:11:49um

3:11:50February 25th and then put in the um the actual building permit in um march 11th

3:11:57We could have very easily as you can see have moved the dates by over a week and had been before the bylaw

3:12:05Now the bylaw when you received it

3:12:07Uh, it was on an amended agenda

3:12:10There was no staff report. There was no advertisement. There was no notice on

3:12:15Websites there was no notice to anybody coming through the process that this bylaw was being changed

3:12:21Which would basically double the the uh the fees for parkland and that's where a big impact because no notification no public

3:12:29Um notice and as I say because of the advisement we're in a unique situation

3:12:35We tried to have a discussion with staff

3:12:38The their perspective is uh if the bylaw was applied properly

3:12:43We understand that the bylaw was applied once again our uniqueness was if you take a look at the broader process

3:12:50The broader advisement by the city on what we should be doing

3:12:54It caused us an extra 21 000 and what we're looking at is to try and recover that at least the 21 000

3:13:02Um through the process we were because of the timing we were told well if you want to

3:13:09Pursue this matter and pay with uh without uh to

3:13:14Pay with um further discussions

3:13:17We had to do it in protest and that meant applying to the ol t that cost money in order to apply the ol t

3:13:24As soon as we applied we were told we couldn't talk to staff. We couldn't talk to council

3:13:29We couldn't talk to anybody. We did apply the rules. I know myself because I do this stuff

3:13:36That we could talk without prejudice, but once again staff had the perspective they applied the bylaw properly

3:13:43um

3:13:45This is where we subsequently after we removed the um ol t

3:13:50submission we then got in touch with our counselor karan and um she has advised us

3:13:57The process to to come forward

3:14:00So I'd just like to indicate that you know what we're looking for is a refund of at least uh 20 260 dollars

3:14:08Because of the unique unique situation we have

3:14:15While the the second was is because of the broadness

3:14:19And some of the changes that you have made with the with the bylaw

3:14:23We really fall under a similar type of thing in that the density truly the density

3:14:28Hasn't changed on this unit a four bedroom with a four bedroom. So

3:14:36Thank you, mr. Mayor

3:14:41Looks like I can go back to council karan then so thank you very much. Great. Thank you. Thank you

3:14:46Yeah, so just to summarize when councillor downer and I became aware about we conferred with staff on what was and was not possible

3:14:54um

3:14:55Right up until this afternoon just ensuring that we're in compliance with with what's allowed under the planning act

3:15:01I just want to point out that staff are following the policy

3:15:04This is a no way a reflection of this of the staff decision on this because

3:15:09Staff are only following the policy

3:15:11Using the authority that they are permitted and allowed under the planning act and they don't have the authority to exempt

3:15:17Only council has the authority authority to do that

3:15:20Which is why the petition was the only recourse for for the property owners. So to that end

3:15:26I want to thank staff for confirming what is and with what is not possible

3:15:30And I understand from staff's advice today that the planning act allows only a

3:15:36All-or-nothing full refund. So I've prepared a motion

3:15:40With the assistance of clerks and that'll come up on the

3:15:46On the screen momentarily

3:15:49And it is for

3:15:51specifically for this site seconded by

3:15:54Patty, okay

3:15:56That council per section 32 j of the parkland dedication bylaw 2022

3:16:0020717 as amended exempts the project completed pursuant to building permit

3:16:05specifically 24 0010280

3:16:09002

3:16:10Brc from payment of the parkland dedication

3:16:13Cash and lune connection with the renovation of 53 wood site as specified therein

3:16:17And that council for the direct staff to issue reimbursement to the property owners of the payments previously made

3:16:23Okay

3:16:25And council or downer has been willing to second. Okay. Is there any is any question just uh at this time at all?

3:16:32Alt and then Gibson and then

3:16:35Kate please

3:16:36Thank you very much. Mayor Guthrie through you to staff and I actually don't know which staff to whom I should direct this but

3:16:45When I when I heard councillor Caron present her motion

3:16:49Statement was made. This is all or nothing

3:16:52So prior to february the 25th, there were parkland fees due

3:16:59After february 25th, there were different parkland fees due

3:17:04What we're now talking about is no parkland fees or all of the parkland fees. Is that correct?

3:17:12Through the mayor to councillor Allt so the petition process

3:17:15Council can only consider the petition that is before them petitions must be within council statutory authority to decide on

3:17:22Your statutory authority in this circumstance is limited to

3:17:26The options in the bylaw which is council retains discretion to exempt

3:17:31specific properties from the application of the bylaw the planning act does not allow you to

3:17:38To determine or grant individual rates and so a partial refund would be akin to granting it a

3:17:44Specific rate for a property which you do not have the authority to do under the planning act or the bylaw

3:17:50And to address the other part of your question councillor Allt

3:17:52It is correct that parkland dedication or cash and lou was due

3:17:56As at the earlier date with respect to the bylaw amendment

3:18:00What changed in the bylaw was the schedule which includes sort of standardized rates

3:18:05Which people can apply to the valuation

3:18:07So it's sort of an assumed valuation if you wish to pick from that suite of options

3:18:12And those rates increase every year

3:18:14On the you know, sort of as things would do with respect to property values

3:18:18It is always available to applicants to obtain their own valuation of their particular property

3:18:24And that right existed at the the earlier date and also at the second date

3:18:28So they could have obtained an actual appraisal of their particular property

3:18:33Rather than pay the kind of listed rate in the schedule which did change

3:18:37And those are do not require public notice of change that is an administrative process that is provided for in the bylaw to update those rates

3:18:45And just let me just carry that on because that was a a lot of legal stuff

3:18:50What is put it that way?

3:18:52So that is contained within the statutes of ontario related to parkland dedication fees. Am I correct?

3:18:59Three year america three the the planning act allows council to develop a bylaw

3:19:04For parkland dedication. So council has approved the parkland dedication bylaw. So the actual

3:19:11charging of cash and loo or the sort of the

3:19:16Losing my language here on the actual granting of land, which doesn't happen very often

3:19:19Is within the bylaw itself?

3:19:21But your authority to to pass that bylaw is through the planning act and the planning act does not permit

3:19:27Individualized rates and the bylaw does not reflect individualized rates nor does it give council any further discretion?

3:19:34So just to be absolutely clear what we're looking at is

3:19:39Uh, the data is in some senses immaterial that there were a were a number of concerns that you've raised

3:19:46But what's most important about this is that we are being asked either to

3:19:53uh, acknowledge and enact the bylaw or to um in in this particular case to set aside the bylaw

3:20:03Is that correct?

3:20:04What council would be doing would be granting the petitioner's request for a full refund on the basis of a provision in the bylaw

3:20:10That allows council to exempt certain developments and properties from the application of the bylaw

3:20:17So you can only give the full refund because that's part of what they asked for and that is within your statutory authority

3:20:24And finally one last question. I don't know whether this is appropriate. America three actually

3:20:28um

3:20:30conventionally what the city has done is we have

3:20:35For that lack of better words for a given parkland dedication in unique situations such as

3:20:42Non-profit housing development. I think I could be even wrong there

3:20:47Through the mayor to councillor. I actually cannot recall any particular examples

3:20:52um, perhaps

3:20:55Colleen is raising her and she may have one

3:20:58Oh, okay. Thank you

3:21:00Through the mayor to councillor Allt. I believe we came to council and you uh, uh

3:21:04amended to exempt all places of worship as an example

3:21:07But that wasn't across the board exemption for all places of worship. It was not specific to one particular

3:21:13I think there was also once during the pandemic

3:21:16Where you waived parkland dedication fees?

3:21:19Where it was related to uh testing

3:21:22locations, but again, it was it was for all it wasn't a specific site

3:21:28Location so those are the two examples that I can think of and mr. Matthews is nodding in agreement

3:21:33Thank you. So it does sound to me without any comment needed from staff. We're in our chartered territory on this one. Thank you

3:21:41Thanks, I believe it was Gibson then uh, katon and then I'll go to busatil. Yeah, thank you through mr.

3:21:46Mayor, so thank you to staff councillor Allt. You asked my questions. Where did staff?

3:21:51I wanted to hear staff's interpretation of of how they've sort of

3:21:55Implemented the bylaw and their interpretation of the bylaw

3:21:58They believe correct question to the mover. Where are you in disagreement with staff that they've not interpreted the bylaw, correct?

3:22:07Well, there's two factors. I did state that the interpretation under their authority

3:22:13um of the bylaw

3:22:16Is that on february 27th the the fees changed?

3:22:20Uh, what I'm suggesting is a one-off and and what we've heard from the delegation

3:22:26Is that the owners?

3:22:28specifically asked staff

3:22:30About the timing of their permits and were specifically advised that there was no rush when in fact there was

3:22:38And also that within three days of filing the demolition permit the the fees doubled

3:22:44Um, I think that this is a unique situation where that that sandwich of timing and the advice that was received

3:22:50Makes it it brings it into

3:22:53The reason why we're here today as a petition from the property owners and I I think there has to be some

3:23:00Humanity in this decision about the advice that they were given and the timing of the permits that they filed

3:23:08Thank you, uh, councillor kipzen. Uh, councillor Caton, please and then busit up

3:23:14Thanks through you mr. Mayor to staff

3:23:16um

3:23:17I was wondering about uh, the the notification so

3:23:23They had mentioned that there is no notification on

3:23:27The bylaw being enacted

3:23:29but do we have notification processes on

3:23:33All of the changes that were going to be put into the bylaw up until that point

3:23:42through the mayor to councillor Caton, um, the

3:23:44I

3:23:45Apologies if I'm misinterpreting your question

3:23:46But the bylaw itself was not amended the bylaw contains a mechanism to update the schedule of rates

3:23:53And so that is a change but it is not a bylaw amendment in the same way that there would be public notice of

3:23:59Bylaw amendments on a council agenda or coming on at the end of the night

3:24:03It is a mechanism within the bylaw in the form that was approved by council

3:24:07And again, those are standard rates that are at the option

3:24:11Of property owners

3:24:12It is always available to owners to obtain their own appraisal regardless of what rate is in effect at what time

3:24:20Thank you and also through the mayor

3:24:23um

3:24:25What would this do in terms of setting a precedent like how many other groups come back to us that

3:24:32um

3:24:33applied for a demolition somewhere close to when a rate change happens

3:24:38What is the the impact of?

3:24:42Saying yes to this um the mayor to councillor Caton. I think we would um

3:24:55Want to avoid any kind of um precedent or or answering that in the abstract

3:25:00We would deal with this on a on a specific case by case basis. I wouldn't want to respond to hypotheticals in the moment

3:25:09Thank you

3:25:11Thank you a busatil and then

3:25:13I have I have one or two questions

3:25:16Thank you. Thank you and through the mayor to staff. I need to hear it for a third time just to make sure that i'm very clear

3:25:22I'm looking at uh, yeah, it's

3:25:25Put it into mayor's terms for me

3:25:27um

3:25:29Yet so we have the parkland dedication bylaw that did not change what changed were the

3:25:36schedules and the amounts of the schedules and what I heard you say is that

3:25:41um

3:25:42When an application comes forward it says in there here's our schedule with the rates or

3:25:49You can do your own appraisal

3:25:52And then bring that in am I missing that there is always that it's not prescriptive

3:25:57It's not you have to pay this there is always that own that other option there and that was there

3:26:03Before the date changed before the schedule the amounts changed and after and that stays in the bylaw that's still there today

3:26:11Through the mayor to councillor Busuttil. I can't speak to the actual process

3:26:14Which you started your question with but yes, that is correct

3:26:18The the rates are in the bylaw in a schedule those rates that are sort of

3:26:23Choose your rate based on your category are always in there the notification

3:26:28Um if we're asking the question in terms of how does the public get notification of that update

3:26:32It's built right into the bylaw

3:26:34It was described in the information report that accompanied the bylaw when it came to council for approval

3:26:39And when maybe one of my colleagues can speak more to the process, but certainly when people go through the process

3:26:45Um, they it is you know, they are directed to contact park staff about parkland dedication or cash in lieu

3:26:52And park staff would give them the information at that time including the fact that it is absolutely

3:26:57They're prerogative to obtain an appraisal on their actual property

3:27:01Thank you. That's all

3:27:05Great. Thank you councillor Busuttil

3:27:07um, I have a

3:27:09I have one or two questions then as a follow-up and then

3:27:13Just just bear with me. I'm trying to trying to figure out a way maybe forward here

3:27:18um

3:27:20If nothing had if nothing had changed in this, you know week to week and a couple weeks

3:27:27timeframe

3:27:30The the applicants here in this situation they would have been responsible to pay the 20 ish thousand dollars

3:27:39That's my question. Yes

3:27:43Sorry, america. Three. Could you repeat the question? You're saying if the rates had not changed?

3:27:48So based on what their presentation and petition is based on my conversations with councillor Caron and others

3:27:55If none of that had changed at all

3:27:58Which triggered it almost a doubling of the amount

3:28:01The applicable amount that would have been charged would have been the 20 000 ish range

3:28:08That would have had to have been paid and that's what I feel the the petitioners are not really here arguing it was

3:28:15That was sort of known. It was the the delay of 10 12 days and then all of a sudden

3:28:22Almost a doubling of or at least a doubling of the issue

3:28:25So I just want to make sure I'm hearing from you that if the that change had not occurred

3:28:31Then status quo there would have been a 20 ish thousand dollar charge and the

3:28:37The process for them building their home and whatnot would have would have continued

3:28:41Thank you for that clarification

3:28:44Um, yes, so parkland dedication is is law. So those fees are payable

3:28:49They are applicable law for purpose of building permits. So if they apply they they must be paid

3:28:54um in terms of the timing if the the change in those sort of

3:28:58Um schedule rates had not occurred or if the timing had not overlapped

3:29:02they would have been had the option of sort of paying at the um at the

3:29:07Assumed appraisal value based on that schedule of rates or obtaining their own appraisal

3:29:12And I am not speaking with respect to this property or these owners

3:29:15But many property owners will just defer to those kind of schedule of rates for convenience

3:29:21It's also likely likely possible that certain properties are actually

3:29:26Highly more highly valued than those scheduled rates

3:29:29So those are there for administrative convenience so that everybody doesn't have to go and get

3:29:33Evaluation or appraisal of their property

3:29:36At the time those uh the the fees would be due

3:29:40Okay, but just as a clarification

3:29:42Forget appraisals

3:29:44Forget that process there was a rate

3:29:47And then the rate basically doubled within that like 12 day period if I may just clarify

3:29:52So we're using the term the rate changed colloquially the rate didn't change the rate is actually based on

3:29:58value of property calculated based on a formula in the bylaw

3:30:02The schedule gives essentially standard appraisal values that get plugged into that formula

3:30:08So the rate did not change the schedule of standard valuations that you can use for that formula was updated

3:30:15Okay

3:30:16So another way of me saying it was the outcome changed

3:30:20Within that 10 to 12 day period from x amount of dollars to y amount of dollars. That is correct. Okay

3:30:27Here's here's where I think I'm probably not alone

3:30:29You're now telling us

3:30:33If

3:30:35Under our authority we have to refund the entirety

3:30:40Am I hearing you right?

3:30:42You're saying basically

3:30:45They were able to do what they were able to do

3:30:48And we're going to go right back

3:30:51With and they're going to have to pay nothing

3:30:53Is that what is that what you're saying through your migratory?

3:30:56I'm not saying that you need to refund them at all that is certainly counsel's prerogative when you receive a petition

3:31:02You must consider what the petitioner is asking you so that is before you that is what we are here

3:31:07To to consider i'm here to provide information. I'm certainly not

3:31:11Um suggesting your decision one way or other

3:31:13But I am telling you that you can only make decisions on petitions that are with the scope of your authority

3:31:19It says right in the city's petition policy that petitions must be within council statutory authority

3:31:25So on its face it it must be that your decision is scoped

3:31:29To that authority and you do not have the authority to create individual rates under the planning act or under the bylaw

3:31:36Okay, but to dumb it down for me

3:31:40I'm asking you i'm not suggesting that you're giving us advice

3:31:44To do something or not that is under our preview. I get that

3:31:48But ultimately under the authority it's all or nothing

3:31:54Even though there's an admittance from the petitioners that they would have paid the original 20 ish thousands of dollars

3:32:02It's the extra doubling of the amount which is triggered why they're here. I personally get that

3:32:08But the authority that you're saying and that we would have is all

3:32:14Or nothing. That's all I need to hear from you. That's correct. Okay. Thank you. All right

3:32:19Um, may I I would like to have a three to five minute break for a moment? I'd like to confer

3:32:26um with my colleague for a moment and and and if I

3:32:31Please just have a five minute break. We're gonna come back. I appreciate that and councillor Caton

3:32:36I will go to you when I come back. Okay. Thank you

3:42:28Okay, we'll call the meeting back to order. I appreciate that break. I

3:42:32I needed to confer just with the mover for a moment and uh

3:42:35And uh, councillor Caron has done that. So thank you very much

3:42:39um

3:42:45If I could oh

3:42:48Yeah, if I if I could ask the the applicants just to come back up to the microphone for a moment

3:42:52That's what I was going to suggest. I think I I

3:42:56The petitioners whatever the right whatever you want to correct where it is. Yeah. Yeah

3:43:01But I do a preamble or do you do you want to do that?

3:43:04um

3:43:07If you don't mind I'll just quickly quickly do something and I'll I'll write to you. I'm just trying to work together on this. So

3:43:12um

3:43:13Thank you. Please please come forward

3:43:17and um

3:43:19You know, I just wanted to uh, just ask uh, you've heard you've heard what?

3:43:25Sort of the the friction is that council has in front of us on a decision here

3:43:30when you I believe of course have been uh upfront in regards to the issue of

3:43:36The difference between what was what was owed versus a few days?

3:43:41A few days 10 12 days later having to have that almost doubled, right?

3:43:46But from a decision point of view

3:43:48um

3:43:49It may be a requirement for us to to look at a full

3:43:53And of course it's up to the will of council here. I have no idea

3:43:56But a full a full refund

3:43:59And so my my question to you is uh,

3:44:03If that were to take place

3:44:07Can I ask if there would be a commitment on your behalf?

3:44:12To actually look to give that half back to the city of gulf, you know into our parkland

3:44:20reserve where that money would have been normally

3:44:24Given is that something that you'd be willing to consider?

3:44:27Mr. Mayor, I'm sure we'd be more than happy to donate the money back to the

3:44:32Parkland reserve fund. Okay. Thank you. And with that I'll go over to councillor Caron

3:44:38To consider next steps at least council remember that you can you can go back. Thank you

3:44:43Just remember that we technically have a motion on the floor right now

3:44:48So we either need to continue with kind of debating and discussing the motion on the floor or we can

3:44:54You know take that back and maybe look at something else, but I'll go to the original mover now

3:45:00Thank you. Actually, you've framed it very well. Mr. Mayor in the way you asked the question of the of the petitioner

3:45:05as I think from the discussions and the questions and also from the many discussions that we've had from staff in the last

3:45:12You know year about this case is that there was um

3:45:16that the partial refund was certainly um the intent when the petitioner came forward

3:45:24It was certainly my intent when I brought this forward and pulled it from the green sheets or we used to call them green info sheets

3:45:30Um to bring it forward to council and that was my intention right up to the point of sending a draft motion to the clerks

3:45:39It's only after we got further advice um that it became an all or nothing scenario

3:45:43So I think what is we the motion can't change so the motion that's on the floor is a standing motion

3:45:50But we have heard from the petitioner that the amount that would have been due prior to mark to february 27th

3:45:56will be um returned to the parkland reserve and I think um

3:46:00That is that is a win-win um and adds some some fairness to the process. So thank you. Thank you

3:46:06Uh all please it is a point of order. Uh, I believe sir. Mayor Guthrie. Um, I would like to move into closed session for client solicitor

3:46:15um advice

3:46:19Okay, we're going to confer with the clerk um on the exact wording that we would need just to have up on the screen there. Um, and uh

3:46:29So just wait a moment, okay

3:46:33For you, mr. Mayor first of all, uh, sorry to the clerk. Sorry about to interrupt you. Um, we would need a little bit more

3:46:39Just high level as to the reasoning why without you know, um, and also

3:46:44I would need to look to see if there's even the um a seconder to do that

3:46:49Instead of kind of let me just see if there's even a seconder that feels like we need to do that on this matter

3:46:55Okay, uh, busatil and and katin as well. So you got to so go right ahead. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mayor

3:47:01Yeah, I I am very concerned that this potentially can put us into either a

3:47:06A situation of prejudice or can in fact actually have an impact reputationly upon the city if this

3:47:13Ever arises at some other point. I think I need to hear from the solicitor

3:47:17I have no advice and I know that others were discussing

3:47:20Things I don't have it right now and I'm uncomfortable voting on anything without that

3:47:25Sure. Thank you very much. And so it's moved by yourself seconded by uh, councillor Busuttil

3:47:30Um, is there and here it is here that council held a meeting closed to the public

3:47:35pursuant to the municipal act on petition for parkland development fees at 53 wood side road section 239 2f of the municipal act

3:47:43Regarding advice that is subject to solicitor client privilege including communications

3:47:47necessary for that purpose

3:47:50And so I will call the vote on that as anyone against that

3:47:55No, so I would imagine will be 10 15 minutes or so

3:47:58Inclosed and and we'll come back out and continue from this point forward. Thank you very much

3:59:15Are we okay clerks for me to to speak right now? We're making sure that we're live. Yep. Okay

3:59:21Okay, so again as I normally do with a with a summary high level summary of the closed session

3:59:28We did just move in to get solicitor client privilege information

3:59:33Um, and we received that information

3:59:36And no just no direction. No nothing else was given. We just received information on that and now we are back out here

3:59:42in the open so

3:59:44We have a motion that is still on the floor

3:59:47and um, I

3:59:49And I would ask the clerks to maybe put that just up on the screen for all of us just to look at one more time

3:59:56And there it is there. It's already been read out loud by uh by the mover

4:00:01um, and we've also heard we've also heard from

4:00:06The petitioners as well

4:00:08In regards to the question I asked them earlier. So I look I'm looking to call the vote

4:00:14Before I do that though. This is the last opportunity for any questions of staff. So councillor Gibson, please

4:00:23Well, thank you through mr. Mayor to staff. So based on the arguments two and four of this evening

4:00:31Is it safe to say that?

4:00:34Can you quantify the number of building permits that were perhaps within a five to six month window of this change

4:00:40In the schedule that may be watching this evening and maybe making decisions on their own based on the decision here

4:00:49Through the mayor to council. I don't want to give an exact estimate or or number in the moment

4:00:54I can say that the

4:00:57parkland dedication by-law is applied with

4:01:00great regularity

4:01:02Across the city on a number of files. So it certainly wouldn't be zero or nothing

4:01:08But again very hesitant to give a

4:01:12More detailed estimate that that but again, it is it is an ongoing topic

4:01:17In the in the planning end of things

4:01:20So you've told me that it's more than a few

4:01:23It's more than we're in the mayor to council. I'm comfortable with that. Yes. Okay. Thank you

4:01:28Thank you councillor Gibson. Uh, just to the mover, please

4:01:31To councillor croc

4:01:35It was going to be dependent on the answer to this because councillor Gibson asked for a six month window

4:01:40And I I do think we're really talking about a much much shorter winter window

4:01:44We're talking about a a 12 day window and a three day window prior to february 27th on the demolition permit

4:01:51So my question was was going to be

4:01:54During a pre-consult, what is the process?

4:01:58for a property owner to be advised related to the schedule

4:02:04of parkland fees being revised

4:02:07That if a property owner were to come in at any point during the pre-con

4:02:13phase

4:02:14Would they be advised by a member of staff that parkland dedication fees are annually

4:02:22updated

4:02:23You know every at the council meeting every february that there's a an annual cycle of updates

4:02:28Is there anything in the pre-consultation that would have flagged this for for any property owner?

4:02:33I mean obviously larger developers would be aware of this, but an individual

4:02:40Property owner doing a renovation or a rebuild on a single family home

4:02:46How would they have been flagged that this was an annual schedule update?

4:02:49through to the mayor to council

4:02:52So part of the package that planning

4:02:54And building will give to property owners

4:02:57Will include a number of city departments to reach out to for their own specific needs

4:03:02Reaching out to the parks department for this parkland dedication by-law matter is part of that document documentation and is part of that process

4:03:11From there should park staff be contacted?

4:03:14They will answer specifics to the by-law in terms of questions that the property owner may have to their file the exact specificity

4:03:23Of those kinds of conversations. I don't know in the moment though it would give

4:03:27opportunity

4:03:28For good conversation good expertise from the parks department as to the application of the parkland dedication by-law

4:03:35So on february 25th when the demolition application came in prior to the february 27th change of the schedule of fees

4:03:42A property owner could calculate their own date

4:03:44They would have an assessment value on their home if it was a recent purchase and they could calculate the fees based on

4:03:50The way the formula works in the schedule

4:03:52They would they would have a sense of what the fees would be based on their own calculations without it

4:03:56Without an appraisal through the parks department. Is that is that correct through the mayor to council?

4:04:01Property owners are allowed to get their own appraisal

4:04:03There's a process for that and that can be engaged against through that process. Okay, and then my last question has to do with

4:04:10Whether you are aware of any

4:04:13annual update in the schedule of fees that has

4:04:16This was approximately 50 percent increase a doubling of the parkland fees at any point in

4:04:24I don't know. I don't know how long you've been here mr. Matthews, but are you aware of any

4:04:29Any major increase to that schedule of fees to to that significant level through the mayor to council

4:04:35So 2019 i've been here right about the time we were kind of getting to this by-law

4:04:39From the onset and as miss charles mentioned earlier

4:04:43We're talking about property value here, which is a factor in

4:04:46Determinating the fees so as property values increase the fees obviously change with that

4:04:52In the moment. I can't speak to whether we've seen that jump

4:04:56That's something that I can take away for future consideration in the moment. I can't speak to that though

4:05:01But conceivably if someone had a property value from the fall of 2023 to february of 2024

4:05:09The the property assessment value

4:05:14I guess you can't answer that question

4:05:16But within a six month period from the purchase price and the property valuation one would not assume that there had been

4:05:22Would be a great increase in the valuation

4:05:25Of the property in that six month period

4:05:29Through them through the mayor to councillor Caron so the formula

4:05:33Cannot be based on the assessment value so tax assessment value is is significantly behind

4:05:39The update of those standard rates in the by-law the city actually engages a professional appraiser

4:05:45And so in any given year those rates made the percentage of increase in those sort of standard appraised values

4:05:51Would be based on you know experts with market intelligence

4:05:55It is not a matter of sort of staff arbitrarily updating that schedule of values right understood

4:06:00I appreciate that just for clarity then that appraisal values

4:06:05Are are something that is normally done at the time of a home purchase

4:06:09So obviously to qualify for a mortgage one would would get a an appraisal done by a qualified professional

4:06:15at the time of purchase

4:06:18Through the mayor to councillor Caron you can procure an appraisal at any point

4:06:22Certainly people probably do at purchase, but it's not limited to that point in time. Okay

4:06:28Thanks

4:06:35All right, I appreciate you councillor Caron

4:06:38Thank you very much for

4:06:41For bearing with us and and for everyone in the room bearing with us. This is this this I mean, I'll just say the word out loud

4:06:48That's been said many times. This is very unique. So I just want to thank you very much and also thank the petitioners

4:06:55for coming forward and for

4:06:58stating that you would

4:07:00help with

4:07:02Call it a donation if you wanted to and I trust that that would occur

4:07:08personally so

4:07:09I think this is a very unique an unique situation. So

4:07:13I'll call the vote. So if anyone is against please raise your hand. Okay, so we got uh,

4:07:20alt and busitil and uh,

4:07:23katyn and

4:07:24Gibson and

4:07:26Richardson

4:07:29Okay, that's five just want to make sure

4:07:32Because we've lost a couple of councillors here

4:07:36Through you, Mr. Mayor, we have 11 members present. That's five against the vote carries six five. Okay. Thank you very much. So that carries

4:07:43And so, uh, thank you very much

4:07:45Um, and with that we'll move on to our last item

4:07:50Which will be uh, the bylaws. Uh, councillor causson's not here

4:07:55As the ward mate, would you be willing to uh, move those for us please councillor Goller?

4:08:00Yes, that bylaws 2026 to

4:08:021199 through

4:08:042026

4:08:072122

4:08:092124

4:08:112120 well, I guess that's it's 21202

4:08:1421204 21205 be subject to section 284

4:08:20114 of the minutes for lacked

4:08:23All right, thanks. Uh, alt would you second the bylaws for us tonight? Thank you

4:08:27Uh, and with that anything further on the bylaws

4:08:30Seeing none. I'll call the votes anyone against the bylaws

4:08:36Nope, okay, so that passes

4:08:38Uh, I got no mayor's announcements. Everyone loves that

4:08:44And so now we'll do adjournment

4:08:46Hauser boost a till will second

4:08:48Uh, anyone against adjournment

4:08:52Nobody that's uh, that uh passes and I wish everyone a good night. Thank you very much