Now hold a meeting that is closed to the public, pursuant to the Municipal Act…

3:06:51It's a petition on the parkland development fees at 53 Woodside road

3:06:56Just we only have one delegation that's going to come up

3:06:59Gary Scanlon in a second if you don't mind Gary, I'm just going to ask

3:07:03Councillor Caron just to just to kind of give us a little bit of an overview of

3:07:08The issue that's here and then and then after she's done feel free to come right on down. Okay

3:07:13Councillor Caron. Sure. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. This item's come before us after

3:07:19basically about a two-year period

3:07:21Where it came to the attention of my colleague in word five Kathy Downer and myself about a year ago

3:07:28and

3:07:30You know the the applicants

3:07:33Are following this process because it's the only process available to them

3:07:37They have followed all the directions that that the process has allowed

3:07:42It's not very often in my terms of council that we've ever, you know, I think two maybe two or three petitions that have come before us

3:07:49Of this nature. So I think we'll go to the delegation and they'll present their case

3:07:55and

3:07:57And hopefully this will be a very quick resolution. I do believe this is a very unique one-off situation

3:08:03A sandwiching of permit permits applications

3:08:07Over three different bylaws. So

3:08:09I'll turn it over to back to the the mayor to

3:08:14Hear the delegation

3:08:15I do have motions when when the delegation is complete. Yeah, as soon as the delegation's uh, don't go right back to uh, to you

3:08:23So thank you very much for for bringing it forward

3:08:26And gary, uh, thank you for coming back again

3:08:30We appreciate it. So, uh

3:08:33Please know you have five minutes and uh, you'll hear a chime at the four minute 30 second mark as your warning

3:08:38If you need the whole five minutes, so be it if you don't so be it

3:08:41Just in case there's a question as a follow-up just stay there

3:08:44There may not be but please go right ahead at the time. We'll start when you're ready. Thank you. Um, okay

3:08:53Just to make sure that I know how to

3:08:58The top one. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Mr. Mayor and Mr. Council staff. Thank you for

3:09:05The opportunity. Uh, we wanted

3:09:11Doesn't seem to be working

3:09:16It's the top one. Yeah

3:09:19Oh, there we go. Thank you

3:09:21So, um, obviously through uh, council, you know, uh, the reason why we're here

3:09:26We were here when you were considering, uh, an amendment to your current bylaw

3:09:32Basically that one was to

3:09:34remove

3:09:36alterations and additions from

3:09:39Having to pay the cash and lou and the parkland

3:09:41Um, we didn't that didn't provide for demolitions. I that

3:09:47Generally, we think it should be I can give some perspectives on that

3:09:50But I want to stay on the on course

3:09:53The property that we are is in question 53 Woodside road. It was purchased by my son and daughter-in-law

3:10:01July of 2023

3:10:03The intent was redeveloping it into a modern home the original home was four bedrooms

3:10:09But it was a side split with an open carport now. It's a newly constructed home once again four bedrooms two stories

3:10:16And uh with a full two car garage

3:10:21Basically the increase in the square footage you can see that it's a four bedroom to a four bedroom

3:10:25so from definitions of

3:10:28Of development charges. It's basically this um the same density

3:10:32However density is defined slightly different in the bylaw where a 50 percent increase would activate the requirement to make a payment

3:10:40Now this 50 percent increase is solely in areas of kitchen and general living

3:10:44in

3:10:45areas

3:10:46The uniqueness and thank you for using those words because I think we are unique

3:10:51through this process of looking to demolish and then get a building permit in December 2023

3:10:58My daughter-in-law was in conversation with the building department

3:11:03She said that they were going to apply for the permits in january

3:11:07The building official indicated that there was no rush

3:11:11You can uh if you wanted to start construction in may you've got until the end of march probably in order to put those submissions in

3:11:19um

3:11:20If we had not gotten that advice what would have happened was we would be paying about 21 000 less than what ultimately had to be paid

3:11:29So it was the direction or kind of the um

3:11:33Suggestion through the building department that actually caused us to incur an extra 21 000. That's where the uniqueness is

3:11:41We had in order to ensure that the uh construction gets going in may we actually put in the uh demolition permit

3:11:49um

3:11:50February 25th and then put in the um the actual building permit in um march 11th

3:11:57We could have very easily as you can see have moved the dates by over a week and had been before the bylaw

3:12:05Now the bylaw when you received it

3:12:07Uh, it was on an amended agenda

3:12:10There was no staff report. There was no advertisement. There was no notice on

3:12:15Websites there was no notice to anybody coming through the process that this bylaw was being changed

3:12:21Which would basically double the the uh the fees for parkland and that's where a big impact because no notification no public

3:12:29Um notice and as I say because of the advisement we're in a unique situation

3:12:35We tried to have a discussion with staff

3:12:38The their perspective is uh if the bylaw was applied properly

3:12:43We understand that the bylaw was applied once again our uniqueness was if you take a look at the broader process

3:12:50The broader advisement by the city on what we should be doing

3:12:54It caused us an extra 21 000 and what we're looking at is to try and recover that at least the 21 000

3:13:02Um through the process we were because of the timing we were told well if you want to

3:13:09Pursue this matter and pay with uh without uh to

3:13:14Pay with um further discussions

3:13:17We had to do it in protest and that meant applying to the ol t that cost money in order to apply the ol t

3:13:24As soon as we applied we were told we couldn't talk to staff. We couldn't talk to council

3:13:29We couldn't talk to anybody. We did apply the rules. I know myself because I do this stuff

3:13:36That we could talk without prejudice, but once again staff had the perspective they applied the bylaw properly

3:13:43um

3:13:45This is where we subsequently after we removed the um ol t

3:13:50submission we then got in touch with our counselor karan and um she has advised us

3:13:57The process to to come forward

3:14:00So I'd just like to indicate that you know what we're looking for is a refund of at least uh 20 260 dollars

3:14:08Because of the unique unique situation we have

3:14:15While the the second was is because of the broadness

3:14:19And some of the changes that you have made with the with the bylaw

3:14:23We really fall under a similar type of thing in that the density truly the density

3:14:28Hasn't changed on this unit a four bedroom with a four bedroom. So

3:14:36Thank you, mr. Mayor

3:14:41Looks like I can go back to council karan then so thank you very much. Great. Thank you. Thank you

3:14:46Yeah, so just to summarize when councillor downer and I became aware about we conferred with staff on what was and was not possible

3:14:54um

3:14:55Right up until this afternoon just ensuring that we're in compliance with with what's allowed under the planning act

3:15:01I just want to point out that staff are following the policy

3:15:04This is a no way a reflection of this of the staff decision on this because

3:15:09Staff are only following the policy

3:15:11Using the authority that they are permitted and allowed under the planning act and they don't have the authority to exempt

3:15:17Only council has the authority authority to do that

3:15:20Which is why the petition was the only recourse for for the property owners. So to that end

3:15:26I want to thank staff for confirming what is and with what is not possible

3:15:30And I understand from staff's advice today that the planning act allows only a

3:15:36All-or-nothing full refund. So I've prepared a motion

3:15:40With the assistance of clerks and that'll come up on the

3:15:46On the screen momentarily

3:15:49And it is for

3:15:51specifically for this site seconded by

3:15:54Patty, okay

3:15:56That council per section 32 j of the parkland dedication bylaw 2022

3:16:0020717 as amended exempts the project completed pursuant to building permit

3:16:05specifically 24 0010280

3:16:09002

3:16:10Brc from payment of the parkland dedication

3:16:13Cash and lune connection with the renovation of 53 wood site as specified therein

3:16:17And that council for the direct staff to issue reimbursement to the property owners of the payments previously made

3:16:23Okay

3:16:25And council or downer has been willing to second. Okay. Is there any is any question just uh at this time at all?

3:16:32Alt and then Gibson and then

3:16:35Kate please

3:16:36Thank you very much. Mayor Guthrie through you to staff and I actually don't know which staff to whom I should direct this but

3:16:45When I when I heard councillor Caron present her motion

3:16:49Statement was made. This is all or nothing

3:16:52So prior to february the 25th, there were parkland fees due

3:16:59After february 25th, there were different parkland fees due

3:17:04What we're now talking about is no parkland fees or all of the parkland fees. Is that correct?

3:17:12Through the mayor to councillor Allt so the petition process

3:17:15Council can only consider the petition that is before them petitions must be within council statutory authority to decide on

3:17:22Your statutory authority in this circumstance is limited to

3:17:26The options in the bylaw which is council retains discretion to exempt

3:17:31specific properties from the application of the bylaw the planning act does not allow you to

3:17:38To determine or grant individual rates and so a partial refund would be akin to granting it a

3:17:44Specific rate for a property which you do not have the authority to do under the planning act or the bylaw

3:17:50And to address the other part of your question councillor Allt

3:17:52It is correct that parkland dedication or cash and lou was due

3:17:56As at the earlier date with respect to the bylaw amendment

3:18:00What changed in the bylaw was the schedule which includes sort of standardized rates

3:18:05Which people can apply to the valuation

3:18:07So it's sort of an assumed valuation if you wish to pick from that suite of options

3:18:12And those rates increase every year

3:18:14On the you know, sort of as things would do with respect to property values

3:18:18It is always available to applicants to obtain their own valuation of their particular property

3:18:24And that right existed at the the earlier date and also at the second date

3:18:28So they could have obtained an actual appraisal of their particular property

3:18:33Rather than pay the kind of listed rate in the schedule which did change

3:18:37And those are do not require public notice of change that is an administrative process that is provided for in the bylaw to update those rates

3:18:45And just let me just carry that on because that was a a lot of legal stuff

3:18:50What is put it that way?

3:18:52So that is contained within the statutes of ontario related to parkland dedication fees. Am I correct?

3:18:59Three year america three the the planning act allows council to develop a bylaw

3:19:04For parkland dedication. So council has approved the parkland dedication bylaw. So the actual

3:19:11charging of cash and loo or the sort of the

3:19:16Losing my language here on the actual granting of land, which doesn't happen very often

3:19:19Is within the bylaw itself?

3:19:21But your authority to to pass that bylaw is through the planning act and the planning act does not permit

3:19:27Individualized rates and the bylaw does not reflect individualized rates nor does it give council any further discretion?

3:19:34So just to be absolutely clear what we're looking at is

3:19:39Uh, the data is in some senses immaterial that there were a were a number of concerns that you've raised

3:19:46But what's most important about this is that we are being asked either to

3:19:53uh, acknowledge and enact the bylaw or to um in in this particular case to set aside the bylaw

3:20:03Is that correct?

3:20:04What council would be doing would be granting the petitioner's request for a full refund on the basis of a provision in the bylaw

3:20:10That allows council to exempt certain developments and properties from the application of the bylaw

3:20:17So you can only give the full refund because that's part of what they asked for and that is within your statutory authority

3:20:24And finally one last question. I don't know whether this is appropriate. America three actually

3:20:28um

3:20:30conventionally what the city has done is we have

3:20:35For that lack of better words for a given parkland dedication in unique situations such as

3:20:42Non-profit housing development. I think I could be even wrong there

3:20:47Through the mayor to councillor. I actually cannot recall any particular examples

3:20:52um, perhaps

3:20:55Colleen is raising her and she may have one

3:20:58Oh, okay. Thank you

3:21:00Through the mayor to councillor Allt. I believe we came to council and you uh, uh

3:21:04amended to exempt all places of worship as an example

3:21:07But that wasn't across the board exemption for all places of worship. It was not specific to one particular

3:21:13I think there was also once during the pandemic

3:21:16Where you waived parkland dedication fees?

3:21:19Where it was related to uh testing

3:21:22locations, but again, it was it was for all it wasn't a specific site

3:21:28Location so those are the two examples that I can think of and mr. Matthews is nodding in agreement

3:21:33Thank you. So it does sound to me without any comment needed from staff. We're in our chartered territory on this one. Thank you

3:21:41Thanks, I believe it was Gibson then uh, katon and then I'll go to busatil. Yeah, thank you through mr.

3:21:46Mayor, so thank you to staff councillor Allt. You asked my questions. Where did staff?

3:21:51I wanted to hear staff's interpretation of of how they've sort of

3:21:55Implemented the bylaw and their interpretation of the bylaw

3:21:58They believe correct question to the mover. Where are you in disagreement with staff that they've not interpreted the bylaw, correct?

3:22:07Well, there's two factors. I did state that the interpretation under their authority

3:22:13um of the bylaw

3:22:16Is that on february 27th the the fees changed?

3:22:20Uh, what I'm suggesting is a one-off and and what we've heard from the delegation

3:22:26Is that the owners?

3:22:28specifically asked staff

3:22:30About the timing of their permits and were specifically advised that there was no rush when in fact there was

3:22:38And also that within three days of filing the demolition permit the the fees doubled

3:22:44Um, I think that this is a unique situation where that that sandwich of timing and the advice that was received

3:22:50Makes it it brings it into

3:22:53The reason why we're here today as a petition from the property owners and I I think there has to be some

3:23:00Humanity in this decision about the advice that they were given and the timing of the permits that they filed

3:23:08Thank you, uh, councillor kipzen. Uh, councillor Caton, please and then busit up

3:23:14Thanks through you mr. Mayor to staff

3:23:16um

3:23:17I was wondering about uh, the the notification so

3:23:23They had mentioned that there is no notification on

3:23:27The bylaw being enacted

3:23:29but do we have notification processes on

3:23:33All of the changes that were going to be put into the bylaw up until that point

3:23:42through the mayor to councillor Caton, um, the

3:23:44I

3:23:45Apologies if I'm misinterpreting your question

3:23:46But the bylaw itself was not amended the bylaw contains a mechanism to update the schedule of rates

3:23:53And so that is a change but it is not a bylaw amendment in the same way that there would be public notice of

3:23:59Bylaw amendments on a council agenda or coming on at the end of the night

3:24:03It is a mechanism within the bylaw in the form that was approved by council

3:24:07And again, those are standard rates that are at the option

3:24:11Of property owners

3:24:12It is always available to owners to obtain their own appraisal regardless of what rate is in effect at what time

3:24:20Thank you and also through the mayor

3:24:23um

3:24:25What would this do in terms of setting a precedent like how many other groups come back to us that

3:24:32um

3:24:33applied for a demolition somewhere close to when a rate change happens

3:24:38What is the the impact of?

3:24:42Saying yes to this um the mayor to councillor Caton. I think we would um

3:24:55Want to avoid any kind of um precedent or or answering that in the abstract

3:25:00We would deal with this on a on a specific case by case basis. I wouldn't want to respond to hypotheticals in the moment

3:25:09Thank you

3:25:11Thank you a busatil and then

3:25:13I have I have one or two questions

3:25:16Thank you. Thank you and through the mayor to staff. I need to hear it for a third time just to make sure that i'm very clear

3:25:22I'm looking at uh, yeah, it's

3:25:25Put it into mayor's terms for me

3:25:27um

3:25:29Yet so we have the parkland dedication bylaw that did not change what changed were the

3:25:36schedules and the amounts of the schedules and what I heard you say is that

3:25:41um

3:25:42When an application comes forward it says in there here's our schedule with the rates or

3:25:49You can do your own appraisal

3:25:52And then bring that in am I missing that there is always that it's not prescriptive

3:25:57It's not you have to pay this there is always that own that other option there and that was there

3:26:03Before the date changed before the schedule the amounts changed and after and that stays in the bylaw that's still there today

3:26:11Through the mayor to councillor Busuttil. I can't speak to the actual process

3:26:14Which you started your question with but yes, that is correct

3:26:18The the rates are in the bylaw in a schedule those rates that are sort of

3:26:23Choose your rate based on your category are always in there the notification

3:26:28Um if we're asking the question in terms of how does the public get notification of that update

3:26:32It's built right into the bylaw

3:26:34It was described in the information report that accompanied the bylaw when it came to council for approval

3:26:39And when maybe one of my colleagues can speak more to the process, but certainly when people go through the process

3:26:45Um, they it is you know, they are directed to contact park staff about parkland dedication or cash in lieu

3:26:52And park staff would give them the information at that time including the fact that it is absolutely

3:26:57They're prerogative to obtain an appraisal on their actual property

3:27:01Thank you. That's all

3:27:05Great. Thank you councillor Busuttil

3:27:07um, I have a

3:27:09I have one or two questions then as a follow-up and then

3:27:13Just just bear with me. I'm trying to trying to figure out a way maybe forward here

3:27:18um

3:27:20If nothing had if nothing had changed in this, you know week to week and a couple weeks

3:27:27timeframe

3:27:30The the applicants here in this situation they would have been responsible to pay the 20 ish thousand dollars

3:27:39That's my question. Yes

3:27:43Sorry, america. Three. Could you repeat the question? You're saying if the rates had not changed?

3:27:48So based on what their presentation and petition is based on my conversations with councillor Caron and others

3:27:55If none of that had changed at all

3:27:58Which triggered it almost a doubling of the amount

3:28:01The applicable amount that would have been charged would have been the 20 000 ish range

3:28:08That would have had to have been paid and that's what I feel the the petitioners are not really here arguing it was

3:28:15That was sort of known. It was the the delay of 10 12 days and then all of a sudden

3:28:22Almost a doubling of or at least a doubling of the issue

3:28:25So I just want to make sure I'm hearing from you that if the that change had not occurred

3:28:31Then status quo there would have been a 20 ish thousand dollar charge and the

3:28:37The process for them building their home and whatnot would have would have continued

3:28:41Thank you for that clarification

3:28:44Um, yes, so parkland dedication is is law. So those fees are payable

3:28:49They are applicable law for purpose of building permits. So if they apply they they must be paid

3:28:54um in terms of the timing if the the change in those sort of

3:28:58Um schedule rates had not occurred or if the timing had not overlapped

3:29:02they would have been had the option of sort of paying at the um at the

3:29:07Assumed appraisal value based on that schedule of rates or obtaining their own appraisal

3:29:12And I am not speaking with respect to this property or these owners

3:29:15But many property owners will just defer to those kind of schedule of rates for convenience

3:29:21It's also likely likely possible that certain properties are actually

3:29:26Highly more highly valued than those scheduled rates

3:29:29So those are there for administrative convenience so that everybody doesn't have to go and get

3:29:33Evaluation or appraisal of their property

3:29:36At the time those uh the the fees would be due

3:29:40Okay, but just as a clarification

3:29:42Forget appraisals

3:29:44Forget that process there was a rate

3:29:47And then the rate basically doubled within that like 12 day period if I may just clarify

3:29:52So we're using the term the rate changed colloquially the rate didn't change the rate is actually based on

3:29:58value of property calculated based on a formula in the bylaw

3:30:02The schedule gives essentially standard appraisal values that get plugged into that formula

3:30:08So the rate did not change the schedule of standard valuations that you can use for that formula was updated

3:30:15Okay

3:30:16So another way of me saying it was the outcome changed

3:30:20Within that 10 to 12 day period from x amount of dollars to y amount of dollars. That is correct. Okay

3:30:27Here's here's where I think I'm probably not alone

3:30:29You're now telling us

3:30:33If

3:30:35Under our authority we have to refund the entirety

3:30:40Am I hearing you right?

3:30:42You're saying basically

3:30:45They were able to do what they were able to do

3:30:48And we're going to go right back

3:30:51With and they're going to have to pay nothing

3:30:53Is that what is that what you're saying through your migratory?

3:30:56I'm not saying that you need to refund them at all that is certainly counsel's prerogative when you receive a petition

3:31:02You must consider what the petitioner is asking you so that is before you that is what we are here

3:31:07To to consider i'm here to provide information. I'm certainly not

3:31:11Um suggesting your decision one way or other

3:31:13But I am telling you that you can only make decisions on petitions that are with the scope of your authority

3:31:19It says right in the city's petition policy that petitions must be within council statutory authority

3:31:25So on its face it it must be that your decision is scoped

3:31:29To that authority and you do not have the authority to create individual rates under the planning act or under the bylaw

3:31:36Okay, but to dumb it down for me

3:31:40I'm asking you i'm not suggesting that you're giving us advice

3:31:44To do something or not that is under our preview. I get that

3:31:48But ultimately under the authority it's all or nothing

3:31:54Even though there's an admittance from the petitioners that they would have paid the original 20 ish thousands of dollars

3:32:02It's the extra doubling of the amount which is triggered why they're here. I personally get that

3:32:08But the authority that you're saying and that we would have is all

3:32:14Or nothing. That's all I need to hear from you. That's correct. Okay. Thank you. All right

3:32:19Um, may I I would like to have a three to five minute break for a moment? I'd like to confer

3:32:26um with my colleague for a moment and and and if I

3:32:31Please just have a five minute break. We're gonna come back. I appreciate that and councillor Caton

3:32:36I will go to you when I come back. Okay. Thank you

3:42:28Okay, we'll call the meeting back to order. I appreciate that break. I

3:42:32I needed to confer just with the mover for a moment and uh

3:42:35And uh, councillor Caron has done that. So thank you very much

3:42:39um

3:42:45If I could oh

3:42:48Yeah, if I if I could ask the the applicants just to come back up to the microphone for a moment

3:42:52That's what I was going to suggest. I think I I

3:42:56The petitioners whatever the right whatever you want to correct where it is. Yeah. Yeah

3:43:01But I do a preamble or do you do you want to do that?

3:43:04um

3:43:07If you don't mind I'll just quickly quickly do something and I'll I'll write to you. I'm just trying to work together on this. So

3:43:12um

3:43:13Thank you. Please please come forward

3:43:17and um

3:43:19You know, I just wanted to uh, just ask uh, you've heard you've heard what?

3:43:25Sort of the the friction is that council has in front of us on a decision here

3:43:30when you I believe of course have been uh upfront in regards to the issue of

3:43:36The difference between what was what was owed versus a few days?

3:43:41A few days 10 12 days later having to have that almost doubled, right?

3:43:46But from a decision point of view

3:43:48um

3:43:49It may be a requirement for us to to look at a full

3:43:53And of course it's up to the will of council here. I have no idea

3:43:56But a full a full refund

3:43:59And so my my question to you is uh,

3:44:03If that were to take place

3:44:07Can I ask if there would be a commitment on your behalf?

3:44:12To actually look to give that half back to the city of gulf, you know into our parkland

3:44:20reserve where that money would have been normally

3:44:24Given is that something that you'd be willing to consider?

3:44:27Mr. Mayor, I'm sure we'd be more than happy to donate the money back to the

3:44:32Parkland reserve fund. Okay. Thank you. And with that I'll go over to councillor Caron

3:44:38To consider next steps at least council remember that you can you can go back. Thank you

3:44:43Just remember that we technically have a motion on the floor right now

3:44:48So we either need to continue with kind of debating and discussing the motion on the floor or we can

3:44:54You know take that back and maybe look at something else, but I'll go to the original mover now

3:45:00Thank you. Actually, you've framed it very well. Mr. Mayor in the way you asked the question of the of the petitioner

3:45:05as I think from the discussions and the questions and also from the many discussions that we've had from staff in the last

3:45:12You know year about this case is that there was um

3:45:16that the partial refund was certainly um the intent when the petitioner came forward

3:45:24It was certainly my intent when I brought this forward and pulled it from the green sheets or we used to call them green info sheets

3:45:30Um to bring it forward to council and that was my intention right up to the point of sending a draft motion to the clerks

3:45:39It's only after we got further advice um that it became an all or nothing scenario

3:45:43So I think what is we the motion can't change so the motion that's on the floor is a standing motion

3:45:50But we have heard from the petitioner that the amount that would have been due prior to mark to february 27th

3:45:56will be um returned to the parkland reserve and I think um

3:46:00That is that is a win-win um and adds some some fairness to the process. So thank you. Thank you

3:46:06Uh all please it is a point of order. Uh, I believe sir. Mayor Guthrie. Um, I would like to move into closed session for client solicitor

3:46:15um advice

3:46:19Okay, we're going to confer with the clerk um on the exact wording that we would need just to have up on the screen there. Um, and uh

3:46:29So just wait a moment, okay

3:46:33For you, mr. Mayor first of all, uh, sorry to the clerk. Sorry about to interrupt you. Um, we would need a little bit more

3:46:39Just high level as to the reasoning why without you know, um, and also

3:46:44I would need to look to see if there's even the um a seconder to do that

3:46:49Instead of kind of let me just see if there's even a seconder that feels like we need to do that on this matter

3:46:55Okay, uh, busatil and and katin as well. So you got to so go right ahead. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mayor

3:47:01Yeah, I I am very concerned that this potentially can put us into either a

3:47:06A situation of prejudice or can in fact actually have an impact reputationly upon the city if this

3:47:13Ever arises at some other point. I think I need to hear from the solicitor

3:47:17I have no advice and I know that others were discussing

3:47:20Things I don't have it right now and I'm uncomfortable voting on anything without that

3:47:25Sure. Thank you very much. And so it's moved by yourself seconded by uh, councillor Busuttil

3:47:30Um, is there and here it is here that council held a meeting closed to the public

3:47:35pursuant to the municipal act on petition for parkland development fees at 53 wood side road section 239 2f of the municipal act

3:47:43Regarding advice that is subject to solicitor client privilege including communications

3:47:47necessary for that purpose

3:47:50And so I will call the vote on that as anyone against that

3:47:55No, so I would imagine will be 10 15 minutes or so

3:47:58Inclosed and and we'll come back out and continue from this point forward. Thank you very much

3:59:15Are we okay clerks for me to to speak right now? We're making sure that we're live. Yep. Okay

3:59:21Okay, so again as I normally do with a with a summary high level summary of the closed session

3:59:28We did just move in to get solicitor client privilege information

3:59:33Um, and we received that information

3:59:36And no just no direction. No nothing else was given. We just received information on that and now we are back out here

3:59:42in the open so

3:59:44We have a motion that is still on the floor

3:59:47and um, I

3:59:49And I would ask the clerks to maybe put that just up on the screen for all of us just to look at one more time

3:59:56And there it is there. It's already been read out loud by uh by the mover

4:00:01um, and we've also heard we've also heard from

4:00:06The petitioners as well

4:00:08In regards to the question I asked them earlier. So I look I'm looking to call the vote

4:00:14Before I do that though. This is the last opportunity for any questions of staff. So councillor Gibson, please

4:00:23Well, thank you through mr. Mayor to staff. So based on the arguments two and four of this evening

4:00:31Is it safe to say that?

4:00:34Can you quantify the number of building permits that were perhaps within a five to six month window of this change

4:00:40In the schedule that may be watching this evening and maybe making decisions on their own based on the decision here

4:00:49Through the mayor to council. I don't want to give an exact estimate or or number in the moment

4:00:54I can say that the

4:00:57parkland dedication by-law is applied with

4:01:00great regularity

4:01:02Across the city on a number of files. So it certainly wouldn't be zero or nothing

4:01:08But again very hesitant to give a

4:01:12More detailed estimate that that but again, it is it is an ongoing topic

4:01:17In the in the planning end of things

4:01:20So you've told me that it's more than a few

4:01:23It's more than we're in the mayor to council. I'm comfortable with that. Yes. Okay. Thank you

4:01:28Thank you councillor Gibson. Uh, just to the mover, please

4:01:31To councillor croc

4:01:35It was going to be dependent on the answer to this because councillor Gibson asked for a six month window

4:01:40And I I do think we're really talking about a much much shorter winter window

4:01:44We're talking about a a 12 day window and a three day window prior to february 27th on the demolition permit

4:01:51So my question was was going to be

4:01:54During a pre-consult, what is the process?

4:01:58for a property owner to be advised related to the schedule

4:02:04of parkland fees being revised

4:02:07That if a property owner were to come in at any point during the pre-con

4:02:13phase

4:02:14Would they be advised by a member of staff that parkland dedication fees are annually

4:02:22updated

4:02:23You know every at the council meeting every february that there's a an annual cycle of updates

4:02:28Is there anything in the pre-consultation that would have flagged this for for any property owner?

4:02:33I mean obviously larger developers would be aware of this, but an individual

4:02:40Property owner doing a renovation or a rebuild on a single family home

4:02:46How would they have been flagged that this was an annual schedule update?

4:02:49through to the mayor to council

4:02:52So part of the package that planning

4:02:54And building will give to property owners

4:02:57Will include a number of city departments to reach out to for their own specific needs

4:03:02Reaching out to the parks department for this parkland dedication by-law matter is part of that document documentation and is part of that process

4:03:11From there should park staff be contacted?

4:03:14They will answer specifics to the by-law in terms of questions that the property owner may have to their file the exact specificity

4:03:23Of those kinds of conversations. I don't know in the moment though it would give

4:03:27opportunity

4:03:28For good conversation good expertise from the parks department as to the application of the parkland dedication by-law

4:03:35So on february 25th when the demolition application came in prior to the february 27th change of the schedule of fees

4:03:42A property owner could calculate their own date

4:03:44They would have an assessment value on their home if it was a recent purchase and they could calculate the fees based on

4:03:50The way the formula works in the schedule

4:03:52They would they would have a sense of what the fees would be based on their own calculations without it

4:03:56Without an appraisal through the parks department. Is that is that correct through the mayor to council?

4:04:01Property owners are allowed to get their own appraisal

4:04:03There's a process for that and that can be engaged against through that process. Okay, and then my last question has to do with

4:04:10Whether you are aware of any

4:04:13annual update in the schedule of fees that has

4:04:16This was approximately 50 percent increase a doubling of the parkland fees at any point in

4:04:24I don't know. I don't know how long you've been here mr. Matthews, but are you aware of any

4:04:29Any major increase to that schedule of fees to to that significant level through the mayor to council

4:04:35So 2019 i've been here right about the time we were kind of getting to this by-law

4:04:39From the onset and as miss charles mentioned earlier

4:04:43We're talking about property value here, which is a factor in

4:04:46Determinating the fees so as property values increase the fees obviously change with that

4:04:52In the moment. I can't speak to whether we've seen that jump

4:04:56That's something that I can take away for future consideration in the moment. I can't speak to that though

4:05:01But conceivably if someone had a property value from the fall of 2023 to february of 2024

4:05:09The the property assessment value

4:05:14I guess you can't answer that question

4:05:16But within a six month period from the purchase price and the property valuation one would not assume that there had been

4:05:22Would be a great increase in the valuation

4:05:25Of the property in that six month period

4:05:29Through them through the mayor to councillor Caron so the formula

4:05:33Cannot be based on the assessment value so tax assessment value is is significantly behind

4:05:39The update of those standard rates in the by-law the city actually engages a professional appraiser

4:05:45And so in any given year those rates made the percentage of increase in those sort of standard appraised values

4:05:51Would be based on you know experts with market intelligence

4:05:55It is not a matter of sort of staff arbitrarily updating that schedule of values right understood

4:06:00I appreciate that just for clarity then that appraisal values

4:06:05Are are something that is normally done at the time of a home purchase

4:06:09So obviously to qualify for a mortgage one would would get a an appraisal done by a qualified professional

4:06:15at the time of purchase

4:06:18Through the mayor to councillor Caron you can procure an appraisal at any point

4:06:22Certainly people probably do at purchase, but it's not limited to that point in time. Okay

4:06:28Thanks

4:06:35All right, I appreciate you councillor Caron

4:06:38Thank you very much for

4:06:41For bearing with us and and for everyone in the room bearing with us. This is this this I mean, I'll just say the word out loud

4:06:48That's been said many times. This is very unique. So I just want to thank you very much and also thank the petitioners

4:06:55for coming forward and for

4:06:58stating that you would

4:07:00help with

4:07:02Call it a donation if you wanted to and I trust that that would occur

4:07:08personally so

4:07:09I think this is a very unique an unique situation. So

4:07:13I'll call the vote. So if anyone is against please raise your hand. Okay, so we got uh,

4:07:20alt and busitil and uh,

4:07:23katyn and

4:07:24Gibson and

4:07:26Richardson

4:07:29Okay, that's five just want to make sure

4:07:32Because we've lost a couple of councillors here

4:07:36Through you, Mr. Mayor, we have 11 members present. That's five against the vote carries six five. Okay. Thank you very much. So that carries

4:07:43And so, uh, thank you very much

4:07:45Um, and with that we'll move on to our last item

4:07:50Which will be uh, the bylaws. Uh, councillor causson's not here