City Council

23:17Well, I heard something.

23:19It was like a little...

23:21Okay, the video is off.

23:25Can't.

23:29Oh, it looks like CC media.

23:31That's right.

23:33That's good. I think it's just rebooting on the video.

23:37Let's let that do its thing and then we'll try it in.

23:41We'll do a little test.

23:43That was weird. I was like, why not?

23:45Did that happen so quick? I was like...

23:49I think we should pull it live before we live test.

23:53And then live test, right?

23:55Yeah.

23:57And I didn't restart before we...

23:59This is a test of the city of Guelph's audio and live streaming capabilities.

1:06:17This is a test of the city of Guelph's audio and live streaming capabilities.

1:06:21Okay. I'll call the meeting back to order out here.

1:42:49Council went into a closed session earlier under two items.

1:42:55The first one was downtown land disposition update.

1:42:59So we did receive advice from our staff in regards to that matter.

1:43:04And council did give direction.

1:43:06And in regards to the second item, which is the appointments to the downtown Guelph Business Association boards of directors.

1:43:13We do have a motion coming out of closed session in regards to that.

1:43:16I'll ask to see if councillor Caron would mind bringing that forward.

1:43:20I don't see her on the screen.

1:43:23So could I look to somebody in the room that would be willing to do that?

1:43:27Okay. Councillor Klassen, would you mind reading that at low force?

1:43:31Yes.

1:43:33That city council rise report and introduce the following motion as part of the April 16th, 2024 open council meeting.

1:43:40That Jordan Foster and Crystal Maines be appointed to the downtown Guelph Business Association board of directors for a term ending in November, 2026, or until such a time as successors are appointed.

1:43:51Great. And a seconder for that. Thank you, councillor Allt.

1:43:55And is there anything further on that item?

1:43:57No. Okay. I'll call the vote. Is anyone against those appointments?

1:44:01Nope. Okay. That's unanimous.

1:44:03And with that, we'll just take about a 25 minute break and we'll come back into the open session at six o'clock. Thank you.

2:09:19All right. I'd like to call the meeting to order please for our open session.

2:09:25Thank you for joining us. It is April the 16th, 2024, Tuesday and it's six o'clock.

2:09:31We are going to start with asking if you can, if you're able to rise for our national anthem.

2:09:38Great. Thank you so much. Just to continue a moment of silent reflection.

2:11:07Great. Thank you. And for our territorial acknowledgement, as we gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work in Guelph, a city built over rich indigenous histories.

2:11:31We're guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land, the people who live here today and the generations to come.

2:11:38If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation, we should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude.

2:11:45This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for many peoples over time, but more specifically the Aniwanderok and the Honoshoni.

2:11:55This land is held as the treaty lands and territory with the Mississaucas of the Credit First Nation.

2:12:00And Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman track and as part of the longest established traditional hunting grounds for the six nations of the Grand River.

2:12:08Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples who have come from across Turtle Island, call Guelph home today.

2:12:15Thank you for that. Any disclosure of pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof for the items in front of us?

2:12:21Don't hear or see any.

2:12:24What I've been told in advance, it looks like we probably have three items for discussion.

2:12:31Two with delegations. One to be pulled by Councillor Caton.

2:12:35So the rest at the beginning is the consent agenda.

2:12:40I'm just going to go through each title and then if there's somebody that wants to pull it, go ahead.

2:12:46If not, then we'll move that on consent.

2:12:48So 2023 water services annual report, the summary report, water efficiency strategy progress report.

2:12:56Okay, don't see any. The Guelph-Greener Homes Loan Program bylaw.

2:13:02Okay, and the bylaw authorizing the special charge for the Guelph-Greener Homes Program in accordance with regulation 58606.

2:13:12Nope. Okay, and the sewer bylaw update.

2:13:15And how about the water bylaw update?

2:13:19Nobody? Okay.

2:13:21Can I have a mover for the consent? Gibson and Boussatil.

2:13:26Anything further on that?

2:13:28Nope. Okay, I'll call the vote. Is anyone against that?

2:13:32Nope. Okay, that's unanimous.

2:13:35We have a couple delegations.

2:13:37So we'll skip over the IC report because of Councillor Caton one move another motion and we'll go to that last.

2:13:44So the first is a delegation from John Fisher from the Guelph Hiking Trail Club, who I think is going to be joining us by video.

2:13:56And John, if you can hear me, you can jump on the screen there and...

2:14:02You hear me?

2:14:06Yes, we can hear you John. Did you want to turn your video on? It looks like you are doing that for us.

2:14:12I'm trying and it's not working.

2:14:15Okay, we can... Oh, maybe, maybe.

2:14:19Well, guess what? Well, we won't close our eyes, but we know what you look like.

2:14:24So we can hear you. So why don't you take your five minutes and you'll hear a chime at the four minutes, 30 second mark, but we can hear your audio. So you go ahead.

2:14:34All right. Oh, good. Okay. So, Mr. Mayor, councillor, city staff.

2:14:43My name is John Fisher. I'm the past president of the Guelph Hiking Trail Club.

2:14:49And I am authorized to represent the club in this delegation.

2:14:54The club is over 500 members, several thousand Facebook members.

2:14:59We want to congratulate council and staff for their work in 2022 to pass the municipal accommodation tax.

2:15:09I have been impressed by the quality of the work of destination marketing Guelph and the tourism destination development staff and the work they have done to raise Guelph's tourism profile.

2:15:22The trail club is interested in this report because we feel our 85 kilometer trail network contributes to Guelph's tourism product offerings by providing access to visitors and residents to showcase Guelph's natural beauty.

2:15:38Our club's capability to develop new trails and to add infrastructure aligns with Guelph's tourism vision.

2:15:47In November 2023, council unanimously approved a motion for the parks to consider a community led city supported trail building initiative to bridge the gap in the G to G trans-Canada trailway and seamlessly link downtown Guelph to the Kissing Bridge trailhead.

2:16:08This community effort bolstered by partnerships with outside professional experts exemplifies our community's commitment to positively contribute to the growth of Guelph's tourism economy.

2:16:23The Tourism Advisory Committee passed motions in support of the Guelph Urban Park and the G to G Canada trailway.

2:16:32These two initiatives hold tremendous promise for our city's tourism future and I am pleased that the Guelph Hiking Trail Club is actively engaged in both endeavors.

2:16:43The staff report clarifies three funding streams to support tourism products and the funding rollout timelines.

2:16:52But I am concerned that the examples given to support tourism activities are too limiting.

2:16:59I feel downtown Guelph needs to be the tourism star attraction and insufficient attention is given to its beautification.

2:17:09We would recommend that the map funding streams should also consider downtown beautifying initiatives.

2:17:18Examples might include business facade improvements, private property murals, public art installation, transformer and utility box beautification.

2:17:30These initiatives hold immense potential to transform our downtown into a dynamic, creative and inviting destination all year long.

2:17:42We also need to ensure that the $100,000 set aside in a reserve fund is used to create impactful, long term tourism magnet projects.

2:17:54Whether it be a truly monumental piece of public art or the redevelopment of the downtown riverfront trail, we must invest in initiatives that will stand as enduring tourism attractions for generations to come.

2:18:11Now I am sure the staff response will be that we have departments that already have responsibility for these initiatives.

2:18:20But if we are honest with ourselves, I think you would agree that is not translating into the trend in the downtown beautification.

2:18:29If we review these responsibilities through the economic impact of a tourism lens, I think we could transform downtown.

2:18:40With the reservations noted, GHTC supports the staff recommendations and hopes council will continue to support initiatives that enhance growth appeal as a tourist destination.

2:18:54Together we can shape a future where our trails beckon adventurers on our downtown radiates vibrancy and charm.

2:19:05Thank you.

2:19:06Great. Thank you. Are there any further questions?

2:19:09Seeing none, thank you very much, John.

2:19:12All right, my pleasure.

2:19:14Take care.

2:19:15Is there someone that would be willing to move the recommendations?

2:19:18Okay, Gibson and Klassen.

2:19:20Any questions before I call the vote?

2:19:22I'll go Gibson Klassen or work.

2:19:24Okay.

2:19:25Thank you.

2:19:26Just a quick clarification with staff and then I have some commentary if that's okay, Mr. Mayor.

2:19:29So I just want to be careful.

2:19:31I'm not being careful.

2:19:32We talk about tourism and then but alongside with tourism comes infrastructure.

2:19:37The mat tax explicitly speaks about spending the mat dollars on tourism and driving tourism.

2:19:44So a question to staff.

2:19:46What is prescribed under tourism?

2:19:51I'll use an example.

2:19:52If we develop this burgeoning cricket tournament every year and all of a sudden becomes very apparent to us that we can't host the cricket tournament anymore unless we expand our services or expand our fields.

2:20:06Could the mat tax be used?

2:20:08Could it be justified to spend money on sort of sport infrastructure, which the report talks about?

2:20:16Could we justify spending the mat tax on sport infrastructure or is that not tourism?

2:20:22I think I'm just looking for clarification.

2:20:25James, go ahead.

2:20:27Through the mayor.

2:20:29I guess the short answer is absolutely.

2:20:32We could look at using mat tax for those sorts of things.

2:20:35We just have to keep in mind that it's $100,000 a year that we're putting away for that capital piece.

2:20:42So it's a lot of the other items that Mr. Fisher brought up about downtown beautification.

2:20:49Definitely we can look at those things as part of the municipal accommodation tax.

2:20:54Just keeping in mind that financial limit.

2:20:57Right.

2:20:58Okay.

2:20:59And that leads me to my comments.

2:21:00So I've always wanted to link the spending of the mat tax back to the revenue source.

2:21:08So where it's coming from.

2:21:09And I think the staff report did a pretty good job.

2:21:11But I actually see Mr. Donaldson here today.

2:21:13I read his article last week.

2:21:14It was very good.

2:21:15We kind of got a feeling and we know what is driving the revenues under the mat tax.

2:21:20It's people coming to Guelph for, I'm sorry to say, primarily sporting events.

2:21:26And I've always sort of followed this file looking for that return of revenue back to those organizations,

2:21:33back to the people, back to the associations that are driving the revenue of the mat tax.

2:21:37And I think lost in some of the conversation in the last few weeks has been where we're going to spend this money,

2:21:42where we're going to spend this money.

2:21:43And every time I hear another event or another festival or another this,

2:21:49I always come back to how much is that event or how much is that piece of art?

2:21:54How much is that is driving the hotel stays, the actual revenue driver of the mat tax?

2:21:59And I don't want that to be lost.

2:22:02I think the report does a pretty good job acknowledging that.

2:22:05But I, again, I'm just going to press it upon staff and impress it upon the community.

2:22:08Like when we're talking about the mat tax,

2:22:10I'm hoping that the majority of council wants to see that revenue returned in a tourism way to the revenue sources that it's coming from.

2:22:18The hotel rooms that are being driven.

2:22:20We use it as a criteria for giving the grant money out.

2:22:23I think it should be preferentially given to those organizations and those events that are driving the hotel stays,

2:22:29not simply a one day bike tour through downtown or whatever that doesn't result into a lot of hotel stays,

2:22:38not to discriminate or identify a group.

2:22:41But like we do have to acknowledge that there are groups that are driving hotel stays and there are groups that want the revenue.

2:22:46And we need to make sure that there's some alignment there.

2:22:48Thank you.

2:22:49Great.

2:22:50Thank you.

2:22:51Claes and then a work.

2:22:54Yes. Thank you through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:22:56Mr. Goodrum, I have a question with regard to the use of the program funds.

2:23:02Could potentially the DGB apply for some of the funding in those programs through the mayor?

2:23:11Yes.

2:23:12That is one of the intentions.

2:23:14Remember, we've divided the funding streams between for profit and not for profit.

2:23:19Definitely the BIA would be invited to submit applications for under those streams.

2:23:26Great. Thank you.

2:23:27And may I have a comment?

2:23:29Yeah.

2:23:30Awesome.

2:23:31I'll be brief.

2:23:32I think that the programs presented in this presentation are great and we talked about them already,

2:23:39but I think that Guelph has ample potential to be a tourism destination in southwestern Ontario.

2:23:46And through programs like this, through enabling small and medium sized organizations and individuals

2:23:53to contribute to local tourism, I think that we can definitely put ourselves on the map a little more than we already are.

2:24:00So thank you.

2:24:02Thank you.

2:24:03And or work.

2:24:05Thank you, Marigot.

2:24:06Three, three, you too, Mr. Goodrum.

2:24:08Just to answer a question that Mr. Fisher raised, I was under the impression that something like public

2:24:16art was within the realm potentially of Mattax.

2:24:19Is that correct?

2:24:20Yes, through the mayor.

2:24:24That is correct.

2:24:25And obviously we have our public arts advisory committee as well that it would have to be vetted through.

2:24:29Great.

2:24:30Thanks.

2:24:31And through you, Marigot, through you in a similar vein, like we have significant investments forecast for downtown Guelph

2:24:36in the next five to 10 years.

2:24:38That correct?

2:24:39Which includes probably driving quite a bit of tourism and beautification.

2:24:42Is that correct?

2:24:43Through the mayor.

2:24:45Yes.

2:24:46Okay.

2:24:47Now specifically to the Mattax mayor, Guthrie during committee of the whole I was asking about the allocations for gather here versus other programs.

2:24:55You and I have had an email exchange.

2:24:58Can you confirm for me?

2:24:59Because it's not in the report how that, how those funds are sliced and diced that there will be $50,000 to the gather here fund so that we can likely have at least two fully funded gather here grants from the city.

2:25:15through the mayor and follow-up to that we have made that funding allocation I

2:25:20believe in the the original report can't find it right now on the page but it

2:25:24was ten thousand dollars allocated to the gather here we've increased that to

2:25:29two fifty thousand dollars great three Marguerite do you need a motion or

2:25:34because because the original report didn't have that allocation it wasn't

2:25:37an email exchange are you comfortable that telling council telling the

2:25:41community we're we're okay on the fifty thousand for the gather here yes to the

2:25:45mayor that will be part of our marketing package going out great and my last

2:25:50question Marguerite pretty much immediately after the committee the whole

2:25:56meeting ended people were starting to ask when the application streams will open

2:26:00so I said it hasn't even passed yet that's at the end of the month so do you

2:26:04have a sense of timing for organizations to be applying for grants either through

2:26:10the chamber or through the city through the mayor that's something that we're

2:26:16going to launch launch in a like so in a couple weeks I'm just getting our ducks

2:26:20in a row now and our manager tourism happens to be on a well-deserved

2:26:24vacation so we'll let her have a week and then when she gets back we'll be

2:26:29gearing up towards a launch early May and then review of the applications and

2:26:34awarding subsequent to that and in the chambers along the same timelines as

2:26:38well we're going to launch together it's kind of that no-rowing door policy that

2:26:42I talked about we're going to receive all the applications in from all groups and

2:26:47then divvy them up from there based on that not-for-profit for-profit alignment

2:26:52wonderful I suspect you're going to be busy and just a final comment Marguerite

2:26:57three if I can so I I think the mat tax and the programs that you have lined up

2:27:02are excellent and similar to Councillor Gibson I do think the funds should be

2:27:08allocated as much as possible towards events or things that generate more

2:27:13overnight hotel stays because that is what is that's what's filling the bucket

2:27:18right and so the more we can do for that whether it's conferences or wedding or

2:27:22corporate stays or sports I do really think we need to be stimulating that as

2:27:29much as possible so thank you looking forward to all those great events great

2:27:35and I'm so sorry I forget to the clerks did I did we get this moved and

2:27:40seconded already I think I went right from to that right yeah okay perfect so

2:27:44it's already been moved and seconded is there anything further before I call the

2:27:47vote all right I'll call the vote is anyone against the recommendations

2:27:52there's I think five of them there nope okay that's unanimous thank you I'm so

2:27:59sorry I skipped the minutes would someone be willing to move the minutes for me

2:28:03that I missed out at the beginning their confirmation of minutes from February

2:28:0827th March 20th and 26th and the minutes of the open meeting of the whole on

2:28:12March 5th thank you a busitil and alt is there anything further on that nope okay

2:28:19I'll call the vote anyone against those minutes nope okay thank you now we did

2:28:26have we were supposed to have someone here in regards to the lobbyist

2:28:30registry but that delegation is not here correct okay so unfortunately we'll have

2:28:36to skip on that and I guess I'll just go right to the recommendation so

2:28:40counselor all too well oh all right although let me at least get it on on

2:28:47the let me get on the table okay all ten busitil all right yeah and miss Watson

2:28:55we were just about to call the vote but we're I'm gonna pause that for you to

2:28:59walk up to the microphone and you have up to five minutes you know how that works

2:29:03go right ahead there we go mayor Guthrie and members of Guelph City Council a

2:29:13lobbyist registry for the city is long overdue I forwarded you a copy of an

2:29:18email I sent to council four years ago on this same topic just before the 2022

2:29:24election mayor Guthrie joined this council his council colleagues in

2:29:28unanimously voting against bringing strong mayor powers to Guelph citizens voted

2:29:33for him on the understanding that this was his position and I think the

2:29:37betrayal of those representations made to Guelph citizens makes a lobbying

2:29:41registry even more critically important I appreciate that the staff report

2:29:46clarifies that lobbying is not about citizens communicating with or trying to

2:29:50influence their elected representatives it's about people engaging with

2:29:54government who have a financial interest one thing I would like to see in a

2:29:59bylaw is the option for stronger consequences for violating lobbying

2:30:03requirements I believe that in some jurisdictions there can be legal

2:30:07consequences for not adhering to the requirements and I would like staff to

2:30:12investigate this as part of their research into a bylaw I would also like to

2:30:17ask that staff review the OECD principles on lobbying and I'm going to read some

2:30:22excerpts from a brochure prepared by the OECD which is the organization for

2:30:26economic cooperation and development concerns over lobbying practices and

2:30:32demands for transparency in public decision-making have led countries to

2:30:36countries increasingly discussing discussing lobbying in the political and

2:30:40policy arena lobbying can provide decision makers with valuable insights and

2:30:45data as well as grant stakeholders access to the development and

2:30:50implementation of public policies however lobbying can also lead to undue

2:30:55influence unfair competition and regulatory capture to the detriment of

2:31:01public interest and effective public policies a sound framework for

2:31:07transparency and lobbying is therefore crucial to safeguard the integrity of

2:31:12the public decision-making process the OECD principles for transparency and

2:31:18integrity and lobbying have helped decision makers address concerns raised

2:31:21by lobbying practices these are the only international principles addressing

2:31:26concerns raised by lobbying and providing guidance on how to meet

2:31:29expectations of transparency and accountability in the public decision

2:31:33making process they are part of the OECD strategy for a stronger fairer and

2:31:38cleaner economy the public has a right to know how public institutions and

2:31:45public officials made their decisions including where appropriate who lobbied

2:31:52on relevant issues government should also consider facilitating public

2:31:57scrutiny by indicating who has sought to influence legislative or policy making

2:32:02processes for example by disclosing a quote legislative footprint that

2:32:08indicates the lobbyists consulted in the development of legislative

2:32:12initiatives I wish there had been a lobbyist registry in place when

2:32:17council made a decision this past December to put the innovation district

2:32:21secondary plan in the shredder this was a stunning example of regulatory

2:32:28capture where the public interest was thrown under the bus one person made

2:32:34millions of dollars that night without even having to show up to delegate the

2:32:39big losers again were wealth citizens in fact there wasn't a single member of

2:32:45the public consulted or in attendance staff told you the innovation district

2:32:51contained the last remaining employment lands within city boundaries they told

2:32:56you that this was Guelph's one kick at the can to be part of an innovation

2:32:59cluster staff told you there was enough housing in the plans already for the

2:33:04city most importantly they're told they told you there wasn't enough future

2:33:10water available to include this new housing for those of you who claim to be

2:33:16tax fighters what exactly do you think is the richest non-residential source of

2:33:22revenue for the city it's employment lands but you traded that away that night

2:33:29Mr. Picoli made a windfall while sucker citizens will be left yet again

2:33:34picking up the tab for the financial shortfall we know from election finance

2:33:40records that councillor Gibson and Mayor Guthrie both received maximum

2:33:43$1,200 donations from Mr. Picoli for their 2022 campaigns did they also receive

2:33:50phone calls emails or visits from Mr. Picoli prior to that meeting

2:33:54inquiring minds would love to know but since we don't have a lobbyist registry

2:33:59yet there's no official record regulatory capture is out of control in this

2:34:04city strong mayor powers are about to make it work you're gonna have to cut you

2:34:08off there that's your time thank you very much is there a follow-up question to

2:34:13the delegate at all thank you councillor all no questions any questions to the

2:34:19delegate yes Councillor Cossin yes thank you through you mr. Mayor to the

2:34:24delegate I have a question and I was wondering if you could speak more a

2:34:28little bit about the legal consequences for not abiding by the lobbyist by law

2:34:33and if you have seen those elsewhere if you could elaborate a little bit on

2:34:38that the details of it I have seen and I'm not sure if it might have been the

2:34:44city of Toronto the clerk is nodding his head for their lobbyist registry that

2:34:51there can be legal consequences for not adhering to the bylaw and I would

2:34:55actually like to see that like it just seems to me like a slap oh you're you

2:34:59know if you don't follow the rules then oh you're not going to be allowed to

2:35:03lobby again for some time I think it's actually extremely serious that that

2:35:08these rules are followed and that there is transparency in the city around who

2:35:12is actually influencing the students who may never show up in the council

2:35:16chambers but the but the the jigs and already before the meeting even happens

2:35:23because those conversations have already taken place great thank you thank

2:35:28you Councillor see nothing further thank you very much your delegation and you

2:35:35it's already been moved it's already been seconded is there anything further on

2:35:38a comment before I before I call the vote Councillor Caron I think you have

2:35:43your hand up I see you that's more of a comment in that you know in my four

2:35:49previous terms of council I I don't think I've ever seen a political

2:35:54environment in this province where a lobbyist registry has ever been needed

2:36:00more than more than the last few years I know it's outside of our jurisdiction

2:36:05but certainly the green belt 413 bill 23 all the things that are happening with

2:36:12planning and development across the province having a lobbyist registry at

2:36:19the municipal level I think is an absolutely essential step forward for

2:36:24full transparency to our public about decision-making in our city so I will be

2:36:29supporting it with the full hands up thank you and I'm going to go to Alt and

2:36:37to Gowler and Gibson thank you very much Mayor Guthrie I too will be

2:36:44supporting the the lobbyist registry as I'm sure is apparent but I really want

2:36:49to be clear that the lobbyist registry is about both transparency and

2:36:54integrity as the delegate said but the most important thing about it is I

2:36:57think that we should avoid the idea that it is intent on personalizing what

2:37:03lobbying is it should establish a code of behavior for all counselors and for

2:37:09all lobbyists and provide a foundation for disclosure irrespective of an

2:37:13individual council member a lobby register is for the protection of the

2:37:17community and is something that if we establish that here is for future

2:37:23council behavior as much as it is for us and I want to be perfectly honest I

2:37:28want to be constrained by the lobbyist registry I feel that I have in the past

2:37:33been lobbied and felt uncomfortable I've approached the integrity commissioner

2:37:37about that because I felt so uncomfortable with with what a person was

2:37:41doing that I felt that I had to get some advice on that particular issue I

2:37:46think we need to make very very clear that we codify that kind of behavior

2:37:52that I that I felt was inappropriate not just for any particular member of

2:37:57the council but for all counselors moving forward thank you our goller thank

2:38:06you through your worship fully support the the staff recommendation I do have

2:38:10a question to to staff about this during the committee of the whole we

2:38:15discussed the potential for including not-for-profit organizations and I think

2:38:20well perhaps it's a good idea so they could demonstrate their their work and

2:38:25and to that end I wanted to ask if that is something that will be considered

2:38:30based on our conversations at the committee of the whole because the

2:38:32report that we have in front of us still says that there would be excluded and

2:38:36and along with that you know how onerous would it be from your experience

2:38:41researching these registries is it as simple as sending an email or is it a

2:38:47more onerous process for people to report delegations to to members of

2:38:52council our clerk will jump in through you mr. Mayor to councillor goller I

2:38:56want to clarify the lobbyist registry bylaw that staff are proposing would

2:39:00apply equally to not-for-profits as it would to for-profit business where there

2:39:06is a financial interest so if a not-for-profit were lobbying the city

2:39:09say for grant funding for a specific project that would qualify as lobbying

2:39:14if there were lobbying where there is no financial interest it would not the same

2:39:19goes for a for-profit business we did hear a committee the whole that there

2:39:23was some interest in council to broaden that definition further so when we

2:39:27report back in July we will have options whether their staff recommendations

2:39:31or not I can't say but we will have options for council should you wish to

2:39:34broaden it perfect thank you thank you for that and then along those lines when

2:39:38you bring back options will will it be easy to understand how onerous it would

2:39:43be for an individual to report those I'm thinking of local organizations like we

2:39:48have the the Wolfhiking trail club if they are lobbying us for for some

2:39:53advancement to the community and they are included in the registry how much

2:39:57work would it be for them I'm just concerned that if we were to include

2:40:00not-for-profit organizations that the process might be onerous enough that it

2:40:04discourages them from participating so just a comment for yeah through you mr.

2:40:10Mayor we will make it as easy and convenient as possible it needn't be

2:40:14much more complicated than than a couple of online forms one to register one to

2:40:17submit a return will certainly offer training and advice and support to all

2:40:21residents who need to use that tool perfect thank you for that thank you

2:40:26worship all right looks like I'm closing in here Gibson and then Klassen please

2:40:30yeah thank you through mr. Mayor so I'll hardly agree with the comments that

2:40:34have been made councillor all you said it well I think more transparency is is

2:40:37better and I'll use a couple of examples so in a planning meeting when a

2:40:43developer is set to profit from a decision we've made they have to come and

2:40:48quite often times they lobby us in the public forum so we're here listening to

2:40:52them lobby for a decision to be made I think that's transparent I think that

2:40:56developers should be listed as in a lobbyist registry whether they come

2:41:00privately or they come publicly primarily when they come publicly so that

2:41:03is a process that we show the public before we make our decision I've

2:41:08oftentimes I want this lobbyist registry so but I've brought it up a few years

2:41:11ago I have oftentimes the most uncomfortable times I've been is what

2:41:15I'm sitting here and I'm listening to a delegate and we all know the delegate

2:41:19and we know the delegates interests but they don't have to acknowledge that

2:41:23they're a lobbyist so I'll go back to a file that can remember quite clearly when

2:41:26we first start talking about the gears program where we are going to incentivize

2:41:29and give low low interest low interest loans to homeowners to retrofit their

2:41:34homes with high efficiency furnaces and heat pumps and solar panels and we had

2:41:38one of the chief primary solar installer of the city come and delegate

2:41:43right in front of us like he was in a solar installer and we all knew who he

2:41:46was but no one wanted to acknowledge that he was a lobbyist so we could do

2:41:50that and I look forward to doing that because I think transparency is the best

2:41:54form of medicine in this issue because it at times is brazen when we have

2:41:58members of the community coming before us and not acknowledging that they're

2:42:01lobbyist and we all know what is going on so I'm looking forward to it and I

2:42:06thank staff for the work they're putting into it.

2:42:08Okay thank you and Clawson please.

2:42:12Yes thank you through you Mr. Mayor to staff. I'd like to bring up the same

2:42:17question that I asked Ms. Watson with regard to the legal consequences for not

2:42:24abiding by the lobbyist bylaw or will we be looking at places like City of

2:42:28Toronto I think we saw nods but just out loud will we be looking at some of the

2:42:34legal consequences that are in place for not following that process but

2:42:40also could you speak to what that might be?

2:42:47Through you Mr. Mayor to Clawson. I'm not sure exactly what we mean when we say

2:42:52legal consequences the City of Toronto does have monetary penalties through the

2:42:55only municipality in Ontario that does have monetary penalties of course if

2:42:59there's a contravention of another act or criminal code there may be legal

2:43:03consequences in that circumstance but that's generally outside the sphere of

2:43:06City Council or a registry. We can definitely look into the idea of monetary

2:43:12concepts it's not something that we're recommending at this point it is only

2:43:15used by Toronto but it's something we can consider.

2:43:18Okay thank you and as a follow-up would there be any consequences as far as

2:43:24limitation of their activities moving forward?

2:43:30Through you Mr. Mayor so the draft bylaw as presented in this report would

2:43:35have three tiers and they're basically longer and longer bans from lobby so if

2:43:39you're found to have acted in contravention of the registry you'd be

2:43:42banned for one month on a second penalty two months and a third month at the

2:43:46third time at the discretion of the registrar.

2:43:50Great thank you for the elaboration.

2:43:52Alright I'll work and then I'm circling back quickly to Councillor

2:43:56Olt and sorry I saw Carona circle back to you as after Councillor Allt.

2:44:01Go ahead.

2:44:02Thanks Mayor Guthrie just a comment really so my very first job after

2:44:07University was a government relations researcher and then a government

2:44:11relations consultant so I've registered it's quite easy to register

2:44:14provincially or federally and I'm a strong advocate of having that

2:44:19transparency for absolutely everyone because the you know it can be

2:44:24relationship building initially and that's lobbying right so there's a

2:44:28brand new council and somebody you know the organizations whether they're

2:44:32public private nonprofit want to get to know the counselors just to get to know

2:44:37them there's so there's often relationship building before there's an ask

2:44:41and I think that should be transparent and there are public policy asks but

2:44:45they are about allocations of dollars so that's the first thing I will say it's

2:44:50usually very easy and then you kind of describe what types of interactions

2:44:55you're going to have and who you're going to be talking to right so a bit of

2:44:59your objective is what you record and I do think both sides or sorry anybody

2:45:05who is engaging a government relations in a non-public forum should do that and

2:45:11and the other thing is I don't think that those government relations are a bad

2:45:15thing right an organization that is trying to say you know this regulation

2:45:21will impact us in this way there's X number of jobs like it helps to broaden

2:45:26our considerations as long as that's transparent it's not a problem and so I

2:45:31think that we should encourage communication in all its forms with

2:45:35elected officials and what this does is it brings additional transparency so I

2:45:41think we want robust conversation around public policy and this adds a new

2:45:46level of transparency for that thank you all to then Karan thank you very much a

2:45:54quick question to staff but as Councillor Clossett was raising her

2:45:59question and the answer was given by staff it struck me is it possible that

2:46:05failure to disclose communications with the lobbyist could at some point be

2:46:10entered into a legal proceeding that might even be a takeaway through you

2:46:19Mr. Mayor to council that's something I'd have to discuss with staff in our

2:46:21legal department I can't answer now thank you and to you Karan

2:46:25Councillor I just want to just circle back I didn't call a point of order

2:46:30privilege because I didn't think it was necessary but I just want to ensure that

2:46:35the impression is not left based on Councillor Gibson's comments that when

2:46:41someone is before us as a delegation that we are willfully blind to their

2:46:45association or that we ignore the fact that they are in effect a lobbyist and

2:46:52that is not the case whenever there is a delegation before us that's a member of

2:46:56a community organization an environmental organization community benefit group

2:47:02any advocacy this is not limited to developers and I don't want the impression

2:47:06left that we don't fully understand that there is a huge spectrum of lobbyists

2:47:11that can be defined under the new bylaw that's that's about to be defined

2:47:17yes we acknowledge that those are all lobbyists and in the absence of a

2:47:21lobbyist register we they come to the to the podium and there is no mechanism

2:47:28for them to declare that but that does not mean that council is blind to the

2:47:31fact that they're representing an organization or a pecuniary interest so

2:47:36I just want to make sure that that's that's clear that we we have not been

2:47:39abandoning our duty to understand what lobbying is it's just we don't have a

2:47:44mechanism for it and we're solving that tonight thank you Pusatil and then looks

2:47:51like I'm circling back to Gibson so Pusatil yes thank you and through the

2:47:56mayor thank you to Councillor Goller because you know that systemic advantage

2:48:00is important to me in in a participatory kind of environment but I do have a

2:48:04question and I'm getting into the weeds around operational but when I look at

2:48:07city staff reports one thing is the lobbyist registry would a city staff

2:48:12report include a list of lobbyists that were involved or consulted had meetings

2:48:20with in and that's operational you can take it away but when you know I don't

2:48:25know everyone that might come up to the podium but for me when I read a report we

2:48:30see consultations with internal departments or agencies outside in the

2:48:34community it would be interesting to know that these were the lobbyists that

2:48:38asked to engage with city staff or or council or or mayor or councillor whatever

2:48:44I'm just asking that because we don't all have the same networks and lenses

2:48:50through you Mr. Mayor to Councillor Bruce to tell operationally we can

2:48:56consider whether or not to include it on staff reports where it absolutely will

2:48:59be included is in a public facing registry on gulf.ca it's also just

2:49:04worth noting a lot of lab lobbying is going to take place after reports are

2:49:08published so there be a consideration about how best to represent all of it for

2:49:13any particular item thank you councillor Gibson did you have a question or

2:49:19comment just a short response and I think that that's a fair comment from

2:49:21Councillor Caron I guess my my rebuttal would be I just it's never been a

2:49:25dereliction of duty for councillors not to ask I just I look forward to the day

2:49:28where I can ask are you are you a registered lobbyist on this issue I

2:49:32look forward to that day when the lobbyist registers form so I think

2:49:36that'll be a good a good piece of transparency for the community to know

2:49:38okay sounds good I hear and see nothing further it's already been moved and

2:49:46seconded so I will call the vote is anyone against nobody that's unanimous

2:49:53thank you very much also on the record I completely forgot to say that council

2:49:57Richardson sent regrets so just to make sure that I think that's captured yeah

2:50:03no no lobbying yeah okay we're at the last one the IC report was pulled by

2:50:12councillor I Katen now I know you have a couple of motions for us to consider that

2:50:19you floated around may I look to you to move though the receipt of the IC

2:50:24report to get to your motions yes it's I'm a building to second that alt thank

2:50:31you sir anything on that before I go no I will call the vote does anyone against

2:50:39the IC report no that's unanimous over to you councillor Caton on a couple of

2:50:45motions to float thanks through you mr. Mayor I have motion that I've broken

2:50:53into two that the city clerk be directed in collaboration with the integrity

2:50:59commissioner to review the code of conduct for council and local boards

2:51:02and the use of corporate resources during election policy as they relate to the

2:51:07use of personal versus corporate social media accounts and administered groups

2:51:11and report back as a part of the 2025 governance review and the second one is

2:51:16that the general manager of strategic communications and community engagement

2:51:21be directed to offer social media training including accessibility standards

2:51:26and guidelines to members of city council I believe these are going to be

2:51:30seconded by councillor Allt I just wanted to chat a little bit about them if I

2:51:35have time for that right now no no you yep I'm not stopping you you go right

2:51:40ahead yep yep so I think that ethics integrity and accessibility of

2:51:46communications with residents are always important whether we're using

2:51:50personal accounts or corporate accounts and having standards that include

2:51:54social media use for behavior and proper training on accessibility ensures

2:51:58we're doing the best possible for all residents who rely on us to provide

2:52:02information where they are and how they need it our current policies for

2:52:07integrity and actions are in need of review to make them more robust and

2:52:10inclusive of social media we need timely training on accessibility and to make

2:52:16sure that our social media behavior is included in the 2025 governance review of

2:52:20both policies thanks thank you so any questions about this before I call the

2:52:26vote on both of those Kate Klosson yes thank you through you mr. mayor to

2:52:33councillor Caton I had a question with regard to the language of the motion

2:52:38would the review strictly be for the use of media social media accounts during

2:52:45elections or would it be more broad it's supposed to be for both the

2:52:52integrity use and during the election so the two policies okay thank you Gibson

2:53:00yeah thank you through you mr. mayor I'm a question to the mover I guess my

2:53:04question is around the corporate social media what what is a corporate social

2:53:08media account I'm not aware of anybody on council that has a corporate social

2:53:13media account so right now all of our accounts are considered personal we

2:53:19don't really have a policy for councillor council versus personal accounts

2:53:24and so that kind of calls into question a lot of things within the elections so

2:53:29this is kind of the definitions that I'm hoping that clerk can take back and then

2:53:35bring back to us so that we have some options that we can discuss okay thank

2:53:42you one more question to you mr. mayor I'm aware of corporate issued devices as

2:53:47a concern during elections but I guess my question is does anything preclude you

2:53:54from just asking the integrity commissioner these questions do we need

2:53:58a direction from council well they can't I've been to the integrity commission

2:54:03many times with many questions just for personal clarification I didn't need to

2:54:06come to council for direction well I'm asking for them to review the policies

2:54:11so they just go based on what the policy is currently they don't change the

2:54:14policy so I'm asking for them to work with the clerks to review the policy and

2:54:20include social media use which is currently kind of a gray area council

2:54:32all it was it's an interesting question to councillor Gibson's brought up but I

2:54:36think that there is much more to what council can do because we are asking

2:54:42for staff to please consider what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate

2:54:47with regards to the use of social media when we ask the integrity commissioner

2:54:51there's no action that comes out of it so this is essentially an action item

2:54:55coming from council asking staff to please review this for the purposes of

2:55:00making a recommendation that doesn't occur with an integrity commissioner

2:55:04question okay thank you for your thoughts a counselor Gibson now thank you I'm

2:55:10going to engage staff a little bit sorry if the integrity commissioner gives us

2:55:15no further direction can I ask does staff have thoughts on would you give a

2:55:21would you give recommendations to council on you know how they would be

2:55:25asking that we have a code of conduct right we have a code of conduct that we

2:55:28have to abide by excuse me I just ask a quick question of clarity first of all I

2:55:34don't know if it is the deputy CEO that would answer or our clerks but but are

2:55:39you asking in the context of the motion so during an election to make sure we're

2:55:44framing the questions properly that's all sure let me elaborate under the

2:55:49during an election corporate resources during election policy would staff have

2:55:53recommendations or advice to council on on on how to do the outside of what the

2:55:58integrity commissioner would cite in terms of code of conduct if you may I

2:56:03go through to counsel Gibson I'm a bit lost in the clarity that you're seeking

2:56:07because I think the discussion was pertaining to the integrity of social

2:56:13media accounts and use of corporate devices writ large and then I think this

2:56:17last clarifying point has brought it into during an election so I'm just

2:56:21looking for clarity as to what is the specific nature of your question yeah

2:56:25thank you I guess I'm just trying to drill down on what advice staff would be

2:56:29looking to give us during an election as it relates to personal versus corporate

2:56:35social media accounts which I don't believe any of us have a corporate

2:56:38social media account so what what advice could count what advice could staff give

2:56:43us outside of the code of conduct for any kind of behavior I guess through you

2:56:51Mr. Merida counselor Gibson there are other municipalities in Ontario that

2:56:55have more specific provisions than the city of Guelph with regard to how social

2:56:59media is managed during an election we would do a comparative review we'd look

2:57:03at those municipalities and we'd consider with the integrity commissioner

2:57:07whether any changes like that would be appropriate for Guelph or not I guess

2:57:12that's the answer I was looking for thank you I think that was it am I right

2:57:18oh sorry councillor buildings and through you Mr. Mayor to to the clerk city clerk

2:57:27so we've recently just had a new investigation this is the code of

2:57:33conduct on social media did the integrity commissioner give us any

2:57:40advice or changes he'd like to see to the code of conduct because usually an

2:57:45integrity commissioner after they do an investigation if they see any issues

2:57:48problems they they bring forward suggestions for a change so did that

2:57:55happen in the last investigation that the integrity commissioner actually

2:58:00suggested changes to the code through you Mr. Mayor to councillor villains

2:58:05there was no requested changes from the integrity commissioner resulting from

2:58:09this most recent investigation okay and then another question that I have is

2:58:16that in clause one I see it as two separate entities there's the code of

2:58:22conduct and then there's the election policy so if we supported one being done

2:58:29and not the other then could I ask Mr. Mayor that they be separated I'm sure

2:58:41it's fine can the clerks just write it that way for us would you mind yeah

2:58:46through you Mr. Mayor if the mover is comfortable we'd simply suggest splitting

2:58:51that into three separate resolutions one for the code of conduct one for the use

2:58:54of corporate resources during an election and then the remaining third

2:58:57item but that would yeah that's under the procedure by lobby at the discretion

2:59:01of the mover I'll ask the mover to change

2:59:04councillor Caton would you be okay then instead of two three emotions yeah I'm

2:59:08fine with that okay I'll just give the clerks a moment to add a period and add

2:59:17a number two and a number three yep just take yep just take a minute oh sorry

2:59:27councillor Caron was the last on my list so while they're they're just editing

2:59:32that you can go ahead I just want a little bit more clarity I know there was

2:59:37a question about what the definition of corporate corporate social media account

2:59:41is and then councillor Billings asked about whether there were any

2:59:45recommendations coming out of the report and although there weren't specific

2:59:49recommendations there were issues and questions raised in that report regarding

2:59:55social media accounts that were used for corporate purposes or for City Hall

3:00:02business even though there's no corporate sponsored account nobody registers our

3:00:07social media nobody monitors nobody provides content nobody owns the site we

3:00:12own our own social media there are social media accounts for personal use and for

3:00:19city business city council use and so when we do the definition if we're

3:00:25looking at best practices and we we always in any of our bylaws we always

3:00:30have definitions and terminologies I just want to be sure that that definition

3:00:35of corporate social media is not an account that's owned and operated by the

3:00:40corporation but an account that is used primarily for the use of business related

3:00:46to the corporation and I think that's a really important distinction for me

3:00:50because like most of us we have we have accounts that we use for the most part

3:00:57well in my case 100% for city business and then other accounts that are personal

3:01:03and private and I think that's the definition that's so crucial when we're

3:01:07opening up this can of worms so clerks can you if this motion if these are these

3:01:16particular motions pass you would engage with the integrity commissioner around

3:01:20that thank you okay so Councillor Caron you're not in the room so I just your

3:01:23heads are nodding okay nodding positively just because you can't see

3:01:28nodding one way or the other did you get that done the splitting okay okay well

3:01:37oh I'm so sorry Councillor Boussagell then I'll call the vote sorry go ahead

3:01:40no thank you and through through the mayor this question actually might be for

3:01:43you I know a long time ago we discussed about you know the erosion of print media

3:01:47and community desperate for information about city councillors having websites

3:01:52city is this part of that overall look at and our community engagement framework

3:01:58us as councillors is really extensions of that communication engagement

3:02:03framework is that work happening and is this going to fold into this or is this

3:02:07a new new initiative I think what you're bringing up is valid which we've talked

3:02:11about before but not referencing what's on the table right now but you're on to

3:02:17something in the grand scheme of communications yes I would agree with

3:02:20you yeah sorry Councillor Billings did I skip you I'm sorry back to you that's

3:02:25okay a second actually I guess now would be the third clause and it's the

3:02:30training so my question is through your worship to to staff if a member of

3:02:36council right now wanted this media training would with city staff not

3:02:42provided through Mayor Guthrie to Councillor Billings in conversations

3:02:51with the general manager of strategic communications and community engagement

3:02:54we would be putting together a training session and module for the

3:02:59continuous education of council so we certainly can work that in and find out

3:03:04when the best time to offer that particular training would be but as of

3:03:07the current moment we don't have a particular program set up for training

3:03:10for council thank you okay so why don't we throw the three motions up on the

3:03:19screen okay yep there are three separate slides the Kirk's has said so that the

3:03:27Kirk be directed in collaboration with the integrity commissioner to review the

3:03:30code of conduct for council as it relates to the use of personal versus

3:03:33corporate social media accounts and administered group and report back as

3:03:37part of the 2025 governance review okay so I'll oh sorry this is the number one

3:03:44up on the screen let's go one at a time okay okay so it's already been moved and

3:03:48seconded and I'll call the vote on that is there is there anyone against that

3:03:56okay perfect so that's unanimous and then the second one is I'm sorry I forget

3:04:03what the second one is oh yeah so this one is basically the same but it's about

3:04:08corporate resources during the election election policy as it relates to the use

3:04:12of personal versus corporate social media accounts and administered groups and

3:04:14report back as part of the 2020 governance review so on this particular

3:04:19one just before I call the vote sorry just jump in on this one this one I've

3:04:23already mentioned this a year or so ago I think and I whispered to you guys when

3:04:28there's other cities you've probably heard me say Toronto so what what I what I

3:04:32did actually appreciate about the Toronto policy and I'm trying to go by

3:04:37memory but it basically said like if anybody you know if any 13 of us were

3:04:43wanting to actually put our name forward the policy states that if you're putting

3:04:48your name forward for reelection then you must identify your accounts

3:04:51immediately as not connected to your role as a city council or a mayor and

3:04:58that you can you can use it for for for election period for election reasons but

3:05:03you must identify it that it is separate and so I think anyways there's that

3:05:08policies available online I think if you just google it you can find it I haven't

3:05:11looked at it in a long time but I thought I thought that was relevant because I

3:05:14remember in you know during the election I remember myself doing that and of

3:05:18course I was found to not have there was no rules that I broke there at all in

3:05:22fact I basically kind of followed the Toronto model but the only difference I

3:05:27would say is is that it was done at the time of registration as as an actual

3:05:32candidate so I think that's to me actually that makes more fairer sense to

3:05:38to make sure that everyone's playing by those same rules so that's that's fair

3:05:41moving forward for whoever wants to do that anyways that's my position on that

3:05:45I think that's fair so I'll call the vote on that one is anyone against that one

3:05:49no okay and then the third one is about the social media for accessibility

3:05:57standards guidelines for members of city council you know on this one it's

3:06:07learning new tips and tricks of the trade but also adhering to options of

3:06:13making it easier to communicate further to other people sounds good to me right

3:06:17if it's an off in fact the wording is I don't have it up on the screen right now

3:06:21but the wording is can you put it back up I think I saw a word in there nope the

3:06:32third one if you don't mind thanks yeah the word offer that's an important word

3:06:40actually I mean technically none of us could say take take anyone up on the

3:06:45offer so I certainly will but I'm just saying that that's what that's that's

3:06:50the word that jumped out at me right so that's fine okay so I'll call the vote

3:06:54on that one then is anyone against that one no thanks Councillor Caton those are

3:07:01all unanimous thank you okay 658 almost seven o'clock

3:07:12uh class and you are the bylaws for tonight are you ready no yes breath can I

3:07:22do it all in one breath is the question okay that bylaws twenty three four

3:07:26twenty nine ten to twenty nine eleven twenty nine two six twenty nine two

3:07:35seven twenty nine three six and twenty nine three seven be approved as amended

3:07:40and subject to section 284.11 four of the municipal act good my friend alt is

3:07:50going to second that right thank you I could tell you were lobbying me to

3:07:55second that yeah that's right okay anyone against those bylaws seeing none

3:08:03that's unanimous with that I am looking for adjournment I bet you buildings will

3:08:10do that yep and Caten with the rapid-fire seconder there so anyone against

3:08:15that okay 659 p.m. we are adjourned have a great night everyone thank you very

3:08:21much