City Clerk be directed to draft a Lobbyist Registry By-law and Lobbyist Registry Code of Conduct…

2:28:26have we were supposed to have someone here in regards to the lobbyist

2:28:30registry but that delegation is not here correct okay so unfortunately we'll have

2:28:36to skip on that and I guess I'll just go right to the recommendation so

2:28:40counselor all too well oh all right although let me at least get it on on

2:28:47the let me get on the table okay all ten busitil all right yeah and miss Watson

2:28:55we were just about to call the vote but we're I'm gonna pause that for you to

2:28:59walk up to the microphone and you have up to five minutes you know how that works

2:29:03go right ahead there we go mayor Guthrie and members of Guelph City Council a

2:29:13lobbyist registry for the city is long overdue I forwarded you a copy of an

2:29:18email I sent to council four years ago on this same topic just before the 2022

2:29:24election mayor Guthrie joined this council his council colleagues in

2:29:28unanimously voting against bringing strong mayor powers to Guelph citizens voted

2:29:33for him on the understanding that this was his position and I think the

2:29:37betrayal of those representations made to Guelph citizens makes a lobbying

2:29:41registry even more critically important I appreciate that the staff report

2:29:46clarifies that lobbying is not about citizens communicating with or trying to

2:29:50influence their elected representatives it's about people engaging with

2:29:54government who have a financial interest one thing I would like to see in a

2:29:59bylaw is the option for stronger consequences for violating lobbying

2:30:03requirements I believe that in some jurisdictions there can be legal

2:30:07consequences for not adhering to the requirements and I would like staff to

2:30:12investigate this as part of their research into a bylaw I would also like to

2:30:17ask that staff review the OECD principles on lobbying and I'm going to read some

2:30:22excerpts from a brochure prepared by the OECD which is the organization for

2:30:26economic cooperation and development concerns over lobbying practices and

2:30:32demands for transparency in public decision-making have led countries to

2:30:36countries increasingly discussing discussing lobbying in the political and

2:30:40policy arena lobbying can provide decision makers with valuable insights and

2:30:45data as well as grant stakeholders access to the development and

2:30:50implementation of public policies however lobbying can also lead to undue

2:30:55influence unfair competition and regulatory capture to the detriment of

2:31:01public interest and effective public policies a sound framework for

2:31:07transparency and lobbying is therefore crucial to safeguard the integrity of

2:31:12the public decision-making process the OECD principles for transparency and

2:31:18integrity and lobbying have helped decision makers address concerns raised

2:31:21by lobbying practices these are the only international principles addressing

2:31:26concerns raised by lobbying and providing guidance on how to meet

2:31:29expectations of transparency and accountability in the public decision

2:31:33making process they are part of the OECD strategy for a stronger fairer and

2:31:38cleaner economy the public has a right to know how public institutions and

2:31:45public officials made their decisions including where appropriate who lobbied

2:31:52on relevant issues government should also consider facilitating public

2:31:57scrutiny by indicating who has sought to influence legislative or policy making

2:32:02processes for example by disclosing a quote legislative footprint that

2:32:08indicates the lobbyists consulted in the development of legislative

2:32:12initiatives I wish there had been a lobbyist registry in place when

2:32:17council made a decision this past December to put the innovation district

2:32:21secondary plan in the shredder this was a stunning example of regulatory

2:32:28capture where the public interest was thrown under the bus one person made

2:32:34millions of dollars that night without even having to show up to delegate the

2:32:39big losers again were wealth citizens in fact there wasn't a single member of

2:32:45the public consulted or in attendance staff told you the innovation district

2:32:51contained the last remaining employment lands within city boundaries they told

2:32:56you that this was Guelph's one kick at the can to be part of an innovation

2:32:59cluster staff told you there was enough housing in the plans already for the

2:33:04city most importantly they're told they told you there wasn't enough future

2:33:10water available to include this new housing for those of you who claim to be

2:33:16tax fighters what exactly do you think is the richest non-residential source of

2:33:22revenue for the city it's employment lands but you traded that away that night

2:33:29Mr. Picoli made a windfall while sucker citizens will be left yet again

2:33:34picking up the tab for the financial shortfall we know from election finance

2:33:40records that councillor Gibson and Mayor Guthrie both received maximum

2:33:43$1,200 donations from Mr. Picoli for their 2022 campaigns did they also receive

2:33:50phone calls emails or visits from Mr. Picoli prior to that meeting

2:33:54inquiring minds would love to know but since we don't have a lobbyist registry

2:33:59yet there's no official record regulatory capture is out of control in this

2:34:04city strong mayor powers are about to make it work you're gonna have to cut you

2:34:08off there that's your time thank you very much is there a follow-up question to

2:34:13the delegate at all thank you councillor all no questions any questions to the

2:34:19delegate yes Councillor Cossin yes thank you through you mr. Mayor to the

2:34:24delegate I have a question and I was wondering if you could speak more a

2:34:28little bit about the legal consequences for not abiding by the lobbyist by law

2:34:33and if you have seen those elsewhere if you could elaborate a little bit on

2:34:38that the details of it I have seen and I'm not sure if it might have been the

2:34:44city of Toronto the clerk is nodding his head for their lobbyist registry that

2:34:51there can be legal consequences for not adhering to the bylaw and I would

2:34:55actually like to see that like it just seems to me like a slap oh you're you

2:34:59know if you don't follow the rules then oh you're not going to be allowed to

2:35:03lobby again for some time I think it's actually extremely serious that that

2:35:08these rules are followed and that there is transparency in the city around who

2:35:12is actually influencing the students who may never show up in the council

2:35:16chambers but the but the the jigs and already before the meeting even happens

2:35:23because those conversations have already taken place great thank you thank

2:35:28you Councillor see nothing further thank you very much your delegation and you

2:35:35it's already been moved it's already been seconded is there anything further on

2:35:38a comment before I before I call the vote Councillor Caron I think you have

2:35:43your hand up I see you that's more of a comment in that you know in my four

2:35:49previous terms of council I I don't think I've ever seen a political

2:35:54environment in this province where a lobbyist registry has ever been needed

2:36:00more than more than the last few years I know it's outside of our jurisdiction

2:36:05but certainly the green belt 413 bill 23 all the things that are happening with

2:36:12planning and development across the province having a lobbyist registry at

2:36:19the municipal level I think is an absolutely essential step forward for

2:36:24full transparency to our public about decision-making in our city so I will be

2:36:29supporting it with the full hands up thank you and I'm going to go to Alt and

2:36:37to Gowler and Gibson thank you very much Mayor Guthrie I too will be

2:36:44supporting the the lobbyist registry as I'm sure is apparent but I really want

2:36:49to be clear that the lobbyist registry is about both transparency and

2:36:54integrity as the delegate said but the most important thing about it is I

2:36:57think that we should avoid the idea that it is intent on personalizing what

2:37:03lobbying is it should establish a code of behavior for all counselors and for

2:37:09all lobbyists and provide a foundation for disclosure irrespective of an

2:37:13individual council member a lobby register is for the protection of the

2:37:17community and is something that if we establish that here is for future

2:37:23council behavior as much as it is for us and I want to be perfectly honest I

2:37:28want to be constrained by the lobbyist registry I feel that I have in the past

2:37:33been lobbied and felt uncomfortable I've approached the integrity commissioner

2:37:37about that because I felt so uncomfortable with with what a person was

2:37:41doing that I felt that I had to get some advice on that particular issue I

2:37:46think we need to make very very clear that we codify that kind of behavior

2:37:52that I that I felt was inappropriate not just for any particular member of

2:37:57the council but for all counselors moving forward thank you our goller thank

2:38:06you through your worship fully support the the staff recommendation I do have

2:38:10a question to to staff about this during the committee of the whole we

2:38:15discussed the potential for including not-for-profit organizations and I think

2:38:20well perhaps it's a good idea so they could demonstrate their their work and

2:38:25and to that end I wanted to ask if that is something that will be considered

2:38:30based on our conversations at the committee of the whole because the

2:38:32report that we have in front of us still says that there would be excluded and

2:38:36and along with that you know how onerous would it be from your experience

2:38:41researching these registries is it as simple as sending an email or is it a

2:38:47more onerous process for people to report delegations to to members of

2:38:52council our clerk will jump in through you mr. Mayor to councillor goller I

2:38:56want to clarify the lobbyist registry bylaw that staff are proposing would

2:39:00apply equally to not-for-profits as it would to for-profit business where there

2:39:06is a financial interest so if a not-for-profit were lobbying the city

2:39:09say for grant funding for a specific project that would qualify as lobbying

2:39:14if there were lobbying where there is no financial interest it would not the same

2:39:19goes for a for-profit business we did hear a committee the whole that there

2:39:23was some interest in council to broaden that definition further so when we

2:39:27report back in July we will have options whether their staff recommendations

2:39:31or not I can't say but we will have options for council should you wish to

2:39:34broaden it perfect thank you thank you for that and then along those lines when

2:39:38you bring back options will will it be easy to understand how onerous it would

2:39:43be for an individual to report those I'm thinking of local organizations like we

2:39:48have the the Wolfhiking trail club if they are lobbying us for for some

2:39:53advancement to the community and they are included in the registry how much

2:39:57work would it be for them I'm just concerned that if we were to include

2:40:00not-for-profit organizations that the process might be onerous enough that it

2:40:04discourages them from participating so just a comment for yeah through you mr.

2:40:10Mayor we will make it as easy and convenient as possible it needn't be

2:40:14much more complicated than than a couple of online forms one to register one to

2:40:17submit a return will certainly offer training and advice and support to all

2:40:21residents who need to use that tool perfect thank you for that thank you

2:40:26worship all right looks like I'm closing in here Gibson and then Klassen please

2:40:30yeah thank you through mr. Mayor so I'll hardly agree with the comments that

2:40:34have been made councillor all you said it well I think more transparency is is

2:40:37better and I'll use a couple of examples so in a planning meeting when a

2:40:43developer is set to profit from a decision we've made they have to come and

2:40:48quite often times they lobby us in the public forum so we're here listening to

2:40:52them lobby for a decision to be made I think that's transparent I think that

2:40:56developers should be listed as in a lobbyist registry whether they come

2:41:00privately or they come publicly primarily when they come publicly so that

2:41:03is a process that we show the public before we make our decision I've

2:41:08oftentimes I want this lobbyist registry so but I've brought it up a few years

2:41:11ago I have oftentimes the most uncomfortable times I've been is what

2:41:15I'm sitting here and I'm listening to a delegate and we all know the delegate

2:41:19and we know the delegates interests but they don't have to acknowledge that

2:41:23they're a lobbyist so I'll go back to a file that can remember quite clearly when

2:41:26we first start talking about the gears program where we are going to incentivize

2:41:29and give low low interest low interest loans to homeowners to retrofit their

2:41:34homes with high efficiency furnaces and heat pumps and solar panels and we had

2:41:38one of the chief primary solar installer of the city come and delegate

2:41:43right in front of us like he was in a solar installer and we all knew who he

2:41:46was but no one wanted to acknowledge that he was a lobbyist so we could do

2:41:50that and I look forward to doing that because I think transparency is the best

2:41:54form of medicine in this issue because it at times is brazen when we have

2:41:58members of the community coming before us and not acknowledging that they're

2:42:01lobbyist and we all know what is going on so I'm looking forward to it and I

2:42:06thank staff for the work they're putting into it.

2:42:08Okay thank you and Clawson please.

2:42:12Yes thank you through you Mr. Mayor to staff. I'd like to bring up the same

2:42:17question that I asked Ms. Watson with regard to the legal consequences for not

2:42:24abiding by the lobbyist bylaw or will we be looking at places like City of

2:42:28Toronto I think we saw nods but just out loud will we be looking at some of the

2:42:34legal consequences that are in place for not following that process but

2:42:40also could you speak to what that might be?

2:42:47Through you Mr. Mayor to Clawson. I'm not sure exactly what we mean when we say

2:42:52legal consequences the City of Toronto does have monetary penalties through the

2:42:55only municipality in Ontario that does have monetary penalties of course if

2:42:59there's a contravention of another act or criminal code there may be legal

2:43:03consequences in that circumstance but that's generally outside the sphere of

2:43:06City Council or a registry. We can definitely look into the idea of monetary

2:43:12concepts it's not something that we're recommending at this point it is only

2:43:15used by Toronto but it's something we can consider.

2:43:18Okay thank you and as a follow-up would there be any consequences as far as

2:43:24limitation of their activities moving forward?

2:43:30Through you Mr. Mayor so the draft bylaw as presented in this report would

2:43:35have three tiers and they're basically longer and longer bans from lobby so if

2:43:39you're found to have acted in contravention of the registry you'd be

2:43:42banned for one month on a second penalty two months and a third month at the

2:43:46third time at the discretion of the registrar.

2:43:50Great thank you for the elaboration.

2:43:52Alright I'll work and then I'm circling back quickly to Councillor

2:43:56Olt and sorry I saw Carona circle back to you as after Councillor Allt.

2:44:01Go ahead.

2:44:02Thanks Mayor Guthrie just a comment really so my very first job after

2:44:07University was a government relations researcher and then a government

2:44:11relations consultant so I've registered it's quite easy to register

2:44:14provincially or federally and I'm a strong advocate of having that

2:44:19transparency for absolutely everyone because the you know it can be

2:44:24relationship building initially and that's lobbying right so there's a

2:44:28brand new council and somebody you know the organizations whether they're

2:44:32public private nonprofit want to get to know the counselors just to get to know

2:44:37them there's so there's often relationship building before there's an ask

2:44:41and I think that should be transparent and there are public policy asks but

2:44:45they are about allocations of dollars so that's the first thing I will say it's

2:44:50usually very easy and then you kind of describe what types of interactions

2:44:55you're going to have and who you're going to be talking to right so a bit of

2:44:59your objective is what you record and I do think both sides or sorry anybody

2:45:05who is engaging a government relations in a non-public forum should do that and

2:45:11and the other thing is I don't think that those government relations are a bad

2:45:15thing right an organization that is trying to say you know this regulation

2:45:21will impact us in this way there's X number of jobs like it helps to broaden

2:45:26our considerations as long as that's transparent it's not a problem and so I

2:45:31think that we should encourage communication in all its forms with

2:45:35elected officials and what this does is it brings additional transparency so I

2:45:41think we want robust conversation around public policy and this adds a new

2:45:46level of transparency for that thank you all to then Karan thank you very much a

2:45:54quick question to staff but as Councillor Clossett was raising her

2:45:59question and the answer was given by staff it struck me is it possible that

2:46:05failure to disclose communications with the lobbyist could at some point be

2:46:10entered into a legal proceeding that might even be a takeaway through you

2:46:19Mr. Mayor to council that's something I'd have to discuss with staff in our

2:46:21legal department I can't answer now thank you and to you Karan

2:46:25Councillor I just want to just circle back I didn't call a point of order

2:46:30privilege because I didn't think it was necessary but I just want to ensure that

2:46:35the impression is not left based on Councillor Gibson's comments that when

2:46:41someone is before us as a delegation that we are willfully blind to their

2:46:45association or that we ignore the fact that they are in effect a lobbyist and

2:46:52that is not the case whenever there is a delegation before us that's a member of

2:46:56a community organization an environmental organization community benefit group

2:47:02any advocacy this is not limited to developers and I don't want the impression

2:47:06left that we don't fully understand that there is a huge spectrum of lobbyists

2:47:11that can be defined under the new bylaw that's that's about to be defined

2:47:17yes we acknowledge that those are all lobbyists and in the absence of a

2:47:21lobbyist register we they come to the to the podium and there is no mechanism

2:47:28for them to declare that but that does not mean that council is blind to the

2:47:31fact that they're representing an organization or a pecuniary interest so

2:47:36I just want to make sure that that's that's clear that we we have not been

2:47:39abandoning our duty to understand what lobbying is it's just we don't have a

2:47:44mechanism for it and we're solving that tonight thank you Pusatil and then looks

2:47:51like I'm circling back to Gibson so Pusatil yes thank you and through the

2:47:56mayor thank you to Councillor Goller because you know that systemic advantage

2:48:00is important to me in in a participatory kind of environment but I do have a

2:48:04question and I'm getting into the weeds around operational but when I look at

2:48:07city staff reports one thing is the lobbyist registry would a city staff

2:48:12report include a list of lobbyists that were involved or consulted had meetings

2:48:20with in and that's operational you can take it away but when you know I don't

2:48:25know everyone that might come up to the podium but for me when I read a report we

2:48:30see consultations with internal departments or agencies outside in the

2:48:34community it would be interesting to know that these were the lobbyists that

2:48:38asked to engage with city staff or or council or or mayor or councillor whatever

2:48:44I'm just asking that because we don't all have the same networks and lenses

2:48:50through you Mr. Mayor to Councillor Bruce to tell operationally we can

2:48:56consider whether or not to include it on staff reports where it absolutely will

2:48:59be included is in a public facing registry on gulf.ca it's also just

2:49:04worth noting a lot of lab lobbying is going to take place after reports are

2:49:08published so there be a consideration about how best to represent all of it for

2:49:13any particular item thank you councillor Gibson did you have a question or

2:49:19comment just a short response and I think that that's a fair comment from

2:49:21Councillor Caron I guess my my rebuttal would be I just it's never been a

2:49:25dereliction of duty for councillors not to ask I just I look forward to the day

2:49:28where I can ask are you are you a registered lobbyist on this issue I

2:49:32look forward to that day when the lobbyist registers form so I think

2:49:36that'll be a good a good piece of transparency for the community to know

2:49:38okay sounds good I hear and see nothing further it's already been moved and

2:49:46seconded so I will call the vote is anyone against nobody that's unanimous