Council Planning

0:03All right, good evening everybody.

0:05It is Wednesday, November the 13th, 2024.

0:09It is 5.30 p.m.

0:12And I am just calling the meeting to order

0:14with right off the top looking to move

0:16into a closed session of council.

0:20Before we do that, is there any disclosure

0:23of pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof

0:25for the item that is listed on the agenda?

0:30Not hearing or seeing anyone opposed to that,

0:33but I will read it out loud.

0:35It's a titled public space use bylaw update.

0:38It is section 239, 2F of the municipal act regarding advice

0:42that is subject to solicitor client privilege,

0:45including communications necessary for that purpose.

0:49And just to have it on the record as well,

0:51we do have regrets from Councillor Boussatil tonight.

0:55And if I could just ask someone to move that motion for me

0:59to go in camera, okay, Colosson and Billings.

1:03And I'll call the vote.

1:04Is anyone against moving into closed?

1:07That's nobody.

1:08So we will convene in closed session

1:11and then come back out for a high level summary when done.

1:13Thank you.

1:25And just for those in the gallery, just as a reminder,

1:28we actually don't start the open session till six.

1:31Okay, I just wanted to make sure if you wanted to wander

1:33for 25 minutes or whatever you could, okay?

1:35But six o'clock is when we start the open session.

1:37Thank you.

40:30Okay, good evening everybody.

40:32Thank you very much for joining us.

40:33And I do apologize that we were a few minutes late

40:36from the start time as originally tabled at six o'clock.

40:39We were in a closed meeting of council

40:42and I'll just give the very, very quick summary as I do.

40:46Coming out of closed, it was listed on the open agenda

40:48as public space use bylaw.

40:51And we did receive information in regards

40:54to the public space bylaw.

40:56And we also gave direction as well to that matter.

41:01And so with that, there's nothing more to state.

41:04And if you could please rise if you're able

41:07so we can recognize our national anthem.

41:09That'd be great.

41:10Thank you.

42:38Thanks everyone as we continue

42:40to moment of silent reflection.

42:53Great, thank you.

42:54And now for our Indigenous territorial acknowledgement.

42:57As we gather, let us take time to reflect

42:59on the privilege to live and work here in Guelph,

43:01a city that's built over rich Indigenous histories.

43:04We're guests here.

43:05We should reflect upon the responsibility

43:07to care for the land and the people who live here today

43:10and the generations to come.

43:12If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation,

43:15we should take pause and make those decisions

43:17with intention and gratitude.

43:19This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands

43:22in a place of refuge for many peoples over time,

43:24but more specifically, the Aniwaterok

43:26and the Honolashoni.

43:28This land is held as the treaty lands in territory

43:31with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation

43:33and Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman track

43:35and is part of a long-established traditional hunting grounds

43:38for the six nations of the Grand River.

43:41Many First Nations Inuit Métis peoples

43:43who have come from across Turtle Island

43:45call Guelph home today.

43:49Thank you.

43:50Is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest

43:52or any general nature thereof

43:54on the items in front of us today?

43:57Councillor Caron, please.

44:00Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

44:01I've submitted my forms online,

44:03but I will be declaring a conflict for item 7.1.

44:07It's 601 Scottsdale and item 7.2, 37 Christie Lane.

44:13The first is due to a direct pecuniary interest

44:16because it affects my department employer.

44:19And the second item, 7.2 is an indirect potential conflict

44:25and I'm declaring it as precautionary

44:29because it may or may not affect my department employer.

44:35Thank you, Councillor Caron.

44:36You really noted, we appreciate that.

44:40Okay, so moving right along,

44:42we do have the consent agenda.

44:44The first being development charges by-law update

44:46for Bill 185

44:49and development charge interest rate policy update.

44:53Third is the 22 James Street East

44:56notice of intention to designate.

44:57And the fourth is 19 Fountain Street West,

45:00also a notice of intention to designate.

45:05Is there anyone that wants to pull any of those?

45:10No, but I think Councillor Caron,

45:12you were looking to move consent, I think.

45:14Yep, all right, and Councillor Allt will second consent

45:18for us.

45:19Is there any questions on those items?

45:21Hearing none, I'll call the vote.

45:23Is anyone against consent?

45:26No one, okay, that passes unanimously.

45:29Thank you very much.

45:32Just, unfortunately, I've been unable to talk

45:34to some of my colleagues on screen,

45:36but to the ones in the room,

45:37I did mention that I also talked a little bit

45:40with the clerks.

45:41There might be a little bit of shifting in the agenda here

45:45to try to accommodate the best agenda management

45:48for today, okay?

45:49I'm hoping that people will kind of roll with it,

45:52understand that we have a large agenda in front of us,

45:55and so to just make sure that we maintain as much,

46:01assessment of how we take our time here tonight,

46:03and so that we can continue to move through the items

46:06that are before us.

46:07So with that, with also a little bit of a request

46:10from some delegations, I am gonna move up into the agenda,

46:14and so Councillor Cronnell,

46:15I'll give you a little bit of a hint right now.

46:17It is the 37 Christie Lane,

46:20the first item there that I think you might have disclosed on,

46:26and that's the notice of intention to designate

46:30the parcel or the item, the project, the thing,

46:35the garden thing at the University of Guelph.

46:40So I'm gonna ask us to move to that one right away, please,

46:44and right off the top, just wondering if our city staff

46:48are available, is Jack Milan here

46:51from our Heritage Planner right now joining us on screen.

46:56Great, thank you.

46:59And then we only have one,

47:03we have another delegation,

47:04but that's gonna be David Camilletti,

47:08who is from our Citizen Appointment Heritage Guelph

47:12Committee, and then we'll get into the delegations from there.

47:16Hi, Jack, we can see you.

47:18Do you wanna unmute just to test your mic for us?

47:20Good evening, Mr. Mayor.

47:22Great, thank you, Jack, for joining us.

47:24We can hear and see you.

47:24I will turn the presentation over to you.

47:26Go right ahead.

47:29Mayor and members of council,

47:30my apologies I cannot be with you in person tonight,

47:33but it is my privilege to present to you the recommendation

47:36to issue a notice of intention to designate

47:38the Rutherford Conservatory at 37 Christie Wayne.

47:42The conservatory was identified by Heritage Guelph

47:44at their January meeting

47:46as the top designation priority for this year.

47:49Conservatories have been used for thousands of years

47:52as a means of keeping tropical plants alive

47:54in northern climates.

47:57The Rutherford Conservatory, as it is now known,

48:00was commissioned by the Ontario Agricultural College

48:03in 1931.

48:05The structure was designed by Lord and Burnham Limited,

48:09North America's preeminent builder of greenhouses.

48:13The conservatories at both the New York Botanical Gardens

48:16and the San Francisco Botanical Gardens

48:18were both designed by this firm.

48:22In my evaluation of the property

48:24against the province's designation criteria,

48:27it was found to meet eight of the nine criteria.

48:30This is an incredibly high score.

48:33Fundamentally, the conservatory is important

48:36because it is one of the last of its type on this continent.

48:40There are no other public conservatories in Guelph

48:42or Wellington County.

48:44This is a provincially significant structure.

48:48However, I want to recognize that conservatories

48:51are uniquely expensive buildings to maintain,

48:53and I want to commend the university and its donors

48:56for the conservation efforts made in the 1960s and 1990s.

49:02The conservatory is an excellent example

49:04of how buildings can evolve over time

49:06and yet retain their heritage value.

49:09The conservatory has been moved twice,

49:12and much of the original glass and wood has been replaced.

49:15However, these changes were made thoughtfully

49:18with like material,

49:19and the conservatory has retained its architectural,

49:22historical, and contextual significance.

49:27Something I really want to emphasize

49:29is that designation would not and cannot

49:32force the complete restoration of this building.

49:35A practical solution is the creation

49:38of a commemorative structure

49:39composed of the steel elements of the building,

49:42which are original.

49:44Heritage staff recognize that the conservatory

49:47is at risk of collapse

49:49and are eager to work with the university

49:51to have the roof removed or reinforced before winter.

49:55In closing, the choice is not between full restoration

49:59and complete demolition.

50:01Designation offers an opportunity

50:03to find creative solutions to the proposed loss

50:06of this historic structure.

50:08Thank you for your consideration.

50:09I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

50:15Thank you very, very much.

50:17What we'll maybe do is just also,

50:20no, you don't want to change it up a little bit.

50:22I think we'll hear from any of my fellow counselors

50:25for any questions to staff right up the top.

50:28Is there anything right now?

50:29I know that you'll be available throughout anyways,

50:33but okay, yeah, Councillor Downer.

50:35Thanks, through you, Mr. Beard, a Jack.

50:39So we've had a bit of correspondence for you today,

50:41so I bet it's sort of last minute.

50:43So I just want to clarify when you say,

50:46so we can still, we would designate,

50:50so would you designate the whole thing

50:52or would you designate different attributes of it

50:56to be incorporated into the landscape design?

50:59We have another email today from the University too

51:02that talks about the Landscape Architectural Program

51:06and having a design competition and whatnot.

51:09So I just, how do you see that playing out

51:12how they would incorporate the conservatory into that

51:18that would still allow dismantling

51:20or demolition of the conservatory?

51:24Through the Mayor to Councillor Downer.

51:26Designation provides an opportunity

51:29to find creative solutions to these problems.

51:32Between now and the issuance of a bylaw,

51:35there is time to refine the heritage attributes

51:39to be included.

51:41So we could remove some of the attributes that were listed

51:45and just include the steel elements of the building.

51:50And then would you envision them being

51:52those steel elements being incorporated

51:55into the landscape design?

51:57Is that, that's the idea then somehow?

52:00Not replicating that building within that

52:03with those same steel, same steel structure

52:06but doing something different.

52:08Through the Mayor to Councillor Downer.

52:11The form of any commemorative structure

52:13would be very much up to the University to propose.

52:17Okay, thank you.

52:20Thank you, Councillor Allt.

52:23Thank you Mayor Guthrie, through you to Mr. Mallon.

52:26Thank you very much for your presentation.

52:29I was in discussions with President Rene Van Acker

52:33earlier about this particular challenge

52:35that the University has.

52:37What you're presenting strikes me as a bit of a win-win.

52:40Commemorative aspect of it, but, and recognizing

52:44it's a heritage structure, but recognizing

52:46some of the challenges to preserving the building.

52:48What I'd like to know is did a heritage wall

52:51propose this idea?

52:55Or did they know about the proposal

52:57for the heritage attributes and what could be done with them?

53:03Through the Mayor to Councillor Allt.

53:05This is a staff recommendation.

53:09Heritage Gwalf recommended a comprehensive list

53:11of attributes for this structure.

53:16So just following up through Mayor Guthrie.

53:19So Heritage Gwalf was not aware of this then

53:21is what I'm hearing you say.

53:24Through the Mayor to Councillor Allt.

53:27That is correct, but they would be made aware of it

53:29through any heritage permit required to dismantle

53:33or make a new structure.

53:35All right, thank you very much.

53:39Great, thank you.

53:41Also Councillor O'Rourke please.

53:47Through you Mayor Guthrie to Mr. Mallon.

53:48I'm just curious, does the designation

53:52or the requirements to reuse any of the structural elements?

53:56Like if they have to reuse this deal,

53:58is there a component of how much they have to reuse

54:01or show the shape?

54:02I mean, does the designation or any of those requirements?

54:07Are they particularly onerous

54:09or expensive requirements for the University?

54:12Or can they be interpreted broadly?

54:15Through the Mayor to Councillor O'Rourke,

54:18they can be interpreted broadly

54:19and there's a lot of flexibility

54:21within a designation bylaw.

54:23Okay, thank you.

54:28I don't see anyone else at this time.

54:31So thank you very much.

54:34Let me go to several pages here.

54:46David Camilletti is, David are you here?

54:50Oh, front row, didn't see ya, sorry.

54:53Come on down, you're here on behalf of Heritage Guelph.

54:56And yeah, feel free to come right up to the mic

54:58and you have your remarks as well.

55:02Five minutes is the top limit there.

55:05So you'll hear a chime at four minutes and 30 seconds

55:08just to give you a warning, okay?

55:09But I'll turn the mic over to you, go ahead.

55:11Yeah, thank you.

55:12I don't think I'll need that, Mr. Mayor

55:13and members of Council.

55:15At the beginning of 2023, Heritage Guelph got together

55:20because at the time we were faced with a one year deadline

55:24from the Ontario government about which properties

55:28we were to designate from the city heritage registry

55:32that didn't have such a designation.

55:35And we opted to do a list, first a list of 22,

55:41then a list of 10 properties that we were going to work on

55:45in order to find out the proper designations.

55:50The 37 Christy Lane property was at the top of the list,

55:56both the list of 22 and the list of 10.

55:59And as a result, we were able,

56:03it was high on the list for us to consider.

56:07And as the Heritage Guelph staff went through all the work

56:13in terms of considering what heritage attributes there were,

56:19our faith in it was rewarded as Mr. Malin has pointed out.

56:27There are eight of nine criteria are met by the conservatory.

56:33Normally, we would get something between three and six

56:40attributes that are met.

56:43So, Heritage Guelph very strongly supported

56:50the notice to designate the heritage property.

56:54The notice to designate and send it to council as a result.

56:58So, we're here to tell you that this is a very exceptional

57:01property of the ones that we've considered.

57:04And as mentioned, it was the top preservation priority for us.

57:11The, actually it was that January 2024, sorry.

57:17The headline in Guelph today says, at all,

57:21it says Guelph Heritage Top 10 ULG Conservatory

57:25Top Preservation Priority.

57:28As we went through the background,

57:31which Mr. Malin has pointed out,

57:34it's quite clear that the conservatory over the years

57:37has been a popular centerpiece of both the

57:40Ontario Agricultural College and then as it evolved

57:44into the University of Guelph.

57:461998, an article from the University of Guelph called it

57:51one of the few remaining centers of glass

57:55and safe press wood centers that are around.

58:00That article also called it the jewel in the crown.

58:03Certainly from the historical attributes point of view,

58:07Heritage Guelph strongly agrees.

58:10So, we have made our, we have a very limited mandate.

58:13We are to consider the historic attributes.

58:17As mentioned, it's the age of nine.

58:19It's far ahead of anything else.

58:21And so with that in mind,

58:23we made our, we made our recommendation to designate.

58:27And I'm here to tell you that it's something that the,

58:30that our group feels very strongly about.

58:33And that's why we've recommended it.

58:36Subject any questions or all that I would like to pass on.

58:40Okay. Thank you so much, David.

58:42We appreciate it.

58:43I appreciate you being here.

58:44It looks like Councillor Allt has a question for you.

58:47Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

58:49I'll just, I'll just pass it through you to Mr. Cameletti.

58:53In your presentation, you mentioned that you were

58:57supportive of designating.

58:59That's all that I heard was only designating.

59:02And I wonder how this dovetails or contradicts

59:07what we heard from the staff recommendation

59:09about designation and possibly commemoration.

59:13If you could talk to that, please.

59:16I'm not sure I thought, I mean,

59:18our role as a committee is to entertain recommendations

59:25and proposals from staff about whether or not

59:30under the Heritage Act of various properties

59:33meet the criteria, one of nine criteria.

59:38In this case, we found that it met eight of nine criteria.

59:42And so we made the recommendation to desipate.

59:45That was the extent of what we were involved in.

59:49Okay.

59:50Thank you.

59:51Thank you very much for that.

59:51I think that's one of the challenges

59:53that we as a Council have when,

59:55I think when we hear the word designate,

59:57it means pardon, no pun intended,

59:59concentrate and almost keep holy and don't mess with it.

1:00:03Do you have a question, Councillor Allt?

1:00:06Yeah.

1:00:06The question is only at this time.

1:00:09Yeah, sure.

1:00:10The question is this, Mayor Guthrie,

1:00:12if you would indulge me, the question is,

1:00:14when something is designated as a heritage site,

1:00:19it could still be altered as per the recommendation of staff

1:00:24that something could be put into it

1:00:26that was commemorative, is that correct?

1:00:28That's something that once it leaves us,

1:00:30that's out of our hands.

1:00:32We've made the recommendation for designation.

1:00:34The final form that it comes out is,

1:00:36is something that's left up to Council.

1:00:39And if it's appealed to the land tribunal,

1:00:44so thank you very much, Mr. Campbell.

1:00:46I appreciate your answer to my question.

1:00:49Thank you.

1:00:50Thank you.

1:00:51Are there any other questions for the delegate at this time?

1:00:54Seeing none, thank you very much for being here.

1:00:56Appreciate it.

1:00:57And so I'm going to go to delegations

1:00:59and I know on our report here, it says one, two, three,

1:01:03four, five delegations, but I have good news.

1:01:08It's just one.

1:01:10It's like, it's really just one and then like backup.

1:01:14So we're going to have the acting president

1:01:20from the University of Guelph, Rene Van Aker to come up.

1:01:23And then the others that are listed on our agenda,

1:01:28Harry Baker, Justin Selby, Arlene, is it Otto,

1:01:34and Lloyd Grinheim are backup.

1:01:39Got like your own band here.

1:01:40You're the lead singer and you got backup.

1:01:43So we'll, they're here kind of representing

1:01:47if there's any kind of tech, more technical questions

1:01:49and things like that, that may need to be answered, okay?

1:01:51But from a delegation point of view,

1:01:53I'll turn the microphone over to you.

1:01:55You do have up to five minutes, okay?

1:01:56And then stick around just in case there's some questions.

1:01:58So whenever you're ready, go ahead.

1:02:00Great, thank you very much, Mr. Mayor and Council.

1:02:04And this is for proceeding with slides.

1:02:06Okay, great.

1:02:08And I'll proceed with the presentation as planned

1:02:12and I'll quickly through it.

1:02:14But I just want to say that this is the first we're hearing

1:02:17of these kind of changes and possibilities.

1:02:20And I would say at the front end that if that is how things go,

1:02:26you have our commitment that we would try to save

1:02:29what we can and incorporate it into future designs

1:02:32for commemoration.

1:02:33But I'm here to share a vision from the University

1:02:39for the future of the DM Rutherford Family Conservatory

1:02:42and to ask for council support in making the vision

1:02:47we propose a reality.

1:02:57The conservatory has a relatively short life cycle

1:03:01of 25 to 30 years requiring multiple rebuilds

1:03:05since it was first constructed in 1931.

1:03:08Today's building replicates that 1930s structure

1:03:12which served as an entrance into a greenhouse complex

1:03:16that was decommissioned and demolished in the 1980s.

1:03:19Since then the conservatory has transitioned

1:03:22into an ornamental structure primarily

1:03:24for public enjoyment.

1:03:26It has not served as an educational or research structure

1:03:30for the University in the past 15 years.

1:03:33Today the same structure issues

1:03:36that have consistently plagued the building

1:03:38have effectively forced its closure for public safety.

1:03:42We've commissioned multiple independent structural

1:03:44engineering teams to complete their own assessments

1:03:48of the building.

1:03:49These reports have come back unanimous.

1:03:51A full rebuild of the structure is required

1:03:53to make it safe and fit for public use.

1:04:04It's three main elements, wood, steel and glass

1:04:07are all showing signs of needing extensive replacement

1:04:09or enhancement because the conservatory operates

1:04:12with a high humidity interior.

1:04:15The wood is subject to constant rotten decay.

1:04:17In fact, it's estimated that 10% or less

1:04:20of the wood is original due to its previous rebuilds

1:04:23and limited life cycle.

1:04:24Steel framework must be significantly reinforced

1:04:27to bring the building up to code

1:04:29and ensure it can withstand winter weather conditions.

1:04:32Our structural engineers have recommended adding three times

1:04:35more steel than currently exists

1:04:37which could impact the overall look

1:04:39and feel of the building.

1:04:40Finally, all the glass will need to be upgraded

1:04:42and changed which would remove any original pains

1:04:45that may still remain.

1:04:50Today's presentation is a culmination of many months

1:04:53of careful deliberation across multiple university departments

1:04:57and the executive team as leaders of the university.

1:05:00We have a duty to ensure the institution

1:05:02is financially sustainable and makes prudent decisions

1:05:05that align with its educational and research mission.

1:05:08As members of the council likely know university finances

1:05:11across the province are in a precarious position.

1:05:15At the university of Guelph we are projecting

1:05:16our fifth consecutive operating budget deficit

1:05:19due to increased expenses with limited

1:05:22and constantly limited tools to generate revenue.

1:05:26The structural engineering assessments

1:05:28have estimated the cost of rebuilding the conservatory

1:05:31to be at least $5 million

1:05:33with annualized maintenance of $2,250,000.

1:05:37If the structure were to be rebuilt using the same materials

1:05:41we'd be looking at a regular $5 million investment

1:05:44every 25 to 30 years.

1:05:46Currently we have over $400 million in deferred capital renewal

1:05:51and major maintenance requirements on our Guelph campus.

1:05:54This includes spaces for teaching, learning, research,

1:05:57student housing and other spaces vital to our core mission.

1:06:01Given our current financial situation,

1:06:03strategic investments must support our key priorities,

1:06:06academic and research facilities,

1:06:07support for student mental health and well-being

1:06:10and student housing.

1:06:15We have an urgent need to make the conservatory site safe

1:06:18for the public as soon as possible

1:06:20while also evolving the space into its next

1:06:22and more permanent life cycle.

1:06:23We're proposing create a commemorative garden

1:06:26that will tell the story of our agricultural beginnings

1:06:29and meaningfully student memories

1:06:31that were made on the site.

1:06:35The space will be designed by community for the community

1:06:37and provide an educational opportunity

1:06:39for our landscape architecture program

1:06:41to shape the gardens through a design competition

1:06:43which we would launch next year.

1:06:45We're also seeking to reuse salvageable materials

1:06:48as suggested ensure our generous alumni community

1:06:51is appropriately recognized for their support

1:06:53of the conservatory and the university.

1:06:55We strive to ensure the essence of our heritage thrives

1:06:59along with our pursuit of academic and research excellence.

1:07:02Some examples are.

1:07:04Oh, I'm so sorry.

1:07:05Just got to, so sorry.

1:07:07Got to turn off the mic there at the five minute mark,

1:07:09but we got pretty much to the end there.

1:07:12So we appreciate that.

1:07:14Let me just ask if there's any questions.

1:07:16I'll start with counselor Gauher then Claeson.

1:07:20Thank you through your worship.

1:07:22Thank you for the presentation.

1:07:24I was hoping to get to the part where you can tell us

1:07:27what the plants are for the replacement of the building

1:07:31or the maintenance of the building if you can tell us.

1:07:33You know, I believe that there was some information

1:07:36about a contest that that would be done.

1:07:41Yeah, so we've already been in contact

1:07:43with the director of our School of Environmental Design

1:07:47and Rural Development,

1:07:48which runs our landscape architecture program.

1:07:50The students there are often engaged in design competitions

1:07:56with various design briefs.

1:07:58We would propose and they are accepting of us

1:08:00using this as an opportunity for a design charrette

1:08:04that would produce a brief that students would then compete

1:08:08with to create a variety of designs to choose from

1:08:12for a commemorative structure

1:08:14within the existing gardens on that site.

1:08:17Okay, thank you very much.

1:08:19So to clarify, the site would be maintained

1:08:22as a garden space.

1:08:24Absolutely, yeah, that would be, yes, that's right.

1:08:27Thank you very much.

1:08:28Thank you, worship.

1:08:29Thank you, counselor.

1:08:30Claeson then Arorak.

1:08:32Yes, thank you through you, Mr. Mayor, to the delegate.

1:08:35Thank you for your presentation.

1:08:37I just had one question with regard to, you know,

1:08:40the commemorative component of the garden

1:08:44and the work that's being proposed.

1:08:47I read in the report that in 1998,

1:08:49your alumni raised $256,000 for the restoration

1:08:54of the greenhouse.

1:08:55And I'm just wondering if there will be some efforts

1:08:58to fundraise for the camera emigration of the space as well,

1:09:02just to acknowledging, you know,

1:09:04some of the work that was done too.

1:09:06And has there been any, and aside from that,

1:09:09as a separate question, was there any work done

1:09:12to explore the potential of restoring the greenhouse

1:09:17through fundraising efforts through your alumni?

1:09:20Yeah, in fact, we connected with a number of alumni

1:09:24who have fond memories of the garden

1:09:30and we also connected with the Rutherford family.

1:09:34We did a similar kind of presentation to them

1:09:38and they were supportive of the situation

1:09:41and were supportive of taking the conservatory down

1:09:46and creating some sort of commemorative structure.

1:09:50They understood the financial constraints that were under.

1:09:53I think they were expecting that the university

1:09:56would find the resources necessary to do that.

1:10:01We did talk about fundraising.

1:10:05The price tag is high, $5 million for what is currently

1:10:11a structure that does not feature in any of our programming.

1:10:17And so I have to be honest,

1:10:19if we're gonna raise $5 million,

1:10:22we're probably gonna be using that for something else

1:10:24that is a much higher priority,

1:10:27like student residences or student mental health

1:10:32and well-being supports, programming supports.

1:10:35So yeah, we did work through that possibility

1:10:40and it's not an insignificant amount of money to raise.

1:10:45Yes, thank you for that.

1:10:46I appreciate the answer there.

1:10:48And I just have one more than regarding the number 5 million.

1:10:52So I know that a lot has changed since 1998

1:10:56and the price tag of $256,000 is a lot less

1:11:00than $5 million.

1:11:01So I was just hoping that maybe you could elaborate

1:11:03a little bit on why such a significant increase

1:11:08from that 256 number to now almost 25 times as much.

1:11:14Like that's a huge, that's not just inflationary.

1:11:18So I'm just curious about what has gone into that number.

1:11:21Thank you.

1:11:22And this is where I turn it over.

1:11:24The hard questions I turn over to other people.

1:11:28So thank you.

1:11:30One of the challenges we have as well as a restoration

1:11:34is the fact that there's a change of use

1:11:37and that is being identified in the Tacoma

1:11:40and at Grinham Report.

1:11:43And those were the latest structure engineers

1:11:46and architects that we engaged.

1:11:49And part of the change of use is requiring

1:11:52significant structural reinforcement.

1:11:54And that's to the point where Renee spoke

1:11:57on the three times as much steel.

1:11:59So a big part of that cost is the additional reinforcing

1:12:04and potentially some life safety upgrades

1:12:06that we may be forced to do as well.

1:12:08So it's not a total re-en-ree

1:12:10on what the scope was 25 years ago.

1:12:16Okay, thank you.

1:12:16And just to clarify then,

1:12:19the change of use is from a greenhouse

1:12:22that was for programmatic uses

1:12:25to a primarily tourism focus.

1:12:28Yes, assembly occupancy public enjoyment type of facility.

1:12:34Okay, thank you.

1:12:36Thank you, Ororok and Downer.

1:12:41Thank you, Margarit.

1:12:42I'll read through you to President Van Acker.

1:12:45First of all, great news yesterday on the student housing

1:12:48and understand the university has some prioritization

1:12:51challenges as we all do.

1:12:54I just wanted to give the university the opportunity

1:12:57to speak to their response to the heritage attributes.

1:13:02There's a number of you who are here,

1:13:03but you're only given the five minutes.

1:13:05So I'm just wondering if you would like to comment

1:13:07on your response.

1:13:09It's clearly a beautiful building

1:13:10that everybody would love to restore.

1:13:13But I just wanna give you a chance

1:13:14to go through the last two slides there

1:13:16that you prepared.

1:13:19Yeah, I mean, I did almost get to the end of the presentation.

1:13:25Certainly our intention and our commitment

1:13:30is to creating a commemoration

1:13:34that does pay honest and easily recognizable homage

1:13:43to the conservatory.

1:13:46I can't say for certain what the design competition

1:13:49will come up with,

1:13:51but you can imagine if we engage alumni and others

1:13:57in establishing the brief that some of that

1:14:02will feature as core in the brief.

1:14:04So I'm confident that we'll have something

1:14:07that remembers the conservatory well.

1:14:12Somebody asked me if there were other examples of that

1:14:15on campus in another discussion we were having about this.

1:14:18And I pointed at the Portico.

1:14:21Many people will be very familiar with the Portico on campus,

1:14:24which of course was attached to Morton Lodge,

1:14:26but no longer exists.

1:14:28And it is a remembrance of Morton Lodge

1:14:32and some physical heritage of the University of Guelph

1:14:37and our history.

1:14:38And it's an extremely popular site on campus.

1:14:42Thankfully it's built out of stone, so it's very durable.

1:14:46But that was what came to my mind

1:14:48when I thought about having some sort of commemoration,

1:14:51not that it would look like the Portico of course,

1:14:53but in that vein.

1:14:57Thank you.

1:14:58And through you, Margarit, just a second question.

1:15:02I heard your engineer talk about life safety concerns.

1:15:05Is there an urgency around the structures ability

1:15:09to hold snow loads?

1:15:10Is there a risk to public safety or student safety?

1:15:14Yeah, one of our latest reports identifies the fact

1:15:18that the need to remove the wood, which supports the glass.

1:15:22So the glass needs to come down before the onset of winter.

1:15:25So we are up against that challenge.

1:15:30Thanks.

1:15:31I'll ask staff whether that's a consideration.

1:15:33Thanks very much.

1:15:36Okay, thank you.

1:15:36Downer, please.

1:15:38Thank you.

1:15:39Through you, Mr. Mayor, to our three people, guests from the

1:15:44year of G, thanks for being so agreeable

1:15:47to find a way to commemorate the conservatory.

1:15:50I appreciate that.

1:15:52So I've been toying with an idea of,

1:15:56and you probably have heard from Ms. McDonald about,

1:16:00a different motion that would just designate

1:16:03the salvageable steel for this building

1:16:06and try to incorporate it into your landscape design,

1:16:11which I think is a great idea.

1:16:14And I hope at that time that you would involve

1:16:18our heritage staff to help you maybe

1:16:21write up the design brief for that as well.

1:16:24But that would be a question I would ask you

1:16:26if we just reduce the attributes to be designated to that

1:16:31so that those could be preserved

1:16:34and it would create some kind of,

1:16:36also see recognition of the importance of this site,

1:16:40of this building.

1:16:45Is that a question?

1:16:47Yes.

1:16:49Yeah, we talked about this.

1:16:51This is the last minute change.

1:16:53So we're not in a position right now

1:16:56to know how much of that steel is salvageable

1:16:59and how much we won't know until we actually get into

1:17:03potentially taking out the glass in the wood,

1:17:05which will expose the steel

1:17:07and then getting our consulting engineer back to look.

1:17:10So the possibility now to make a statement on that,

1:17:14we don't know.

1:17:16And that's exactly why I put in,

1:17:18I took, originally I just had steel

1:17:21and then I said salvageable steel,

1:17:22so that whatever is salvageable would be used

1:17:25and not tying you to the whole thing.

1:17:28Yeah, I mean, I think we could probably say

1:17:31that we would commit to saving what we can

1:17:36and incorporating it into the commemorative design.

1:17:40Yeah, yeah.

1:17:44Great, thank you.

1:17:45Is there anything further at this time?

1:17:49Okay, it's just me then.

1:17:52I'm just gonna ask basically the same question

1:17:54councillor Downer asked and maybe it's just

1:17:55because I'm a little slower,

1:17:57I just need a, almost, yes, no type of guy.

1:18:00So I just wanna be really clear with my question.

1:18:06You without any motions of council have already stated

1:18:10that you would like to try to capture as much as you can,

1:18:13commemorate as much as you can,

1:18:15implement as much as you can within the next phase

1:18:18of the garden and making sure there's some recognition

1:18:22there moving forward from what you can save.

1:18:26You didn't need a motion for that,

1:18:27but you said that you would do that.

1:18:29Now, there's councillor Downer's point of view,

1:18:32which I can understand a little bit is,

1:18:34there's sort of like a partnership here too,

1:18:36where the city has somewhat of a responsibility

1:18:38to try to acknowledge and designate something,

1:18:44so that we capture that sort of from our role, I guess,

1:18:50is maybe what councillor Downer's trying to say.

1:18:52And so if there was actual direction

1:18:58in regards to that particular part, are you okay with that?

1:19:03Yes?

1:19:04Yes, okay, thank you.

1:19:06Swanda helps me understand, yes and no.

1:19:09Okay, perfect.

1:19:10Thank you very much, we appreciate it.

1:19:11And I'll turn it back over to my colleagues.

1:19:16Is there someone that wants to move the recommendation

1:19:21from staff, and I'll just read it out loud,

1:19:27that the city clerk be authorized to publish

1:19:29and serve notice of the intention

1:19:32to designate 37 Christie Lane,

1:19:34pursuant to part four, section 29

1:19:37of the Ontario Heritage Act,

1:19:39and that the designate number two,

1:19:40and that the designation bylaw be brought forward

1:19:43to council for approval if no objections are received

1:19:46within the 30 day objection period.

1:19:49So just to kind of get it on the floor,

1:19:52I mean, if those of us don't support that,

1:19:55then you can vote against it, obviously,

1:19:56but just to get it on the floor.

1:19:57So Alton Klosson, and then first question,

1:20:00I'll go to Klosson.

1:20:04Okay, y'all go question to Klosson,

1:20:07and then right back to you, councillor Downer,

1:20:08turn off your microphone there.

1:20:10Go ahead.

1:20:11Yes, and I think this likely, you know,

1:20:14kind of bleeds into your last question to the delegates.

1:20:17So through you, Mr. Mayor, to staff,

1:20:19my question is, I think the recommendations being proposed

1:20:26can be, you know, complimentary

1:20:29to what the university is proposing.

1:20:31So my question is, can we move forward

1:20:32with the designation as recommended

1:20:34and support their proposal of the commemorative garden,

1:20:39saving different elements of it?

1:20:41I just wanted to be absolutely clear on that.

1:20:45Through the mayor to the councillor.

1:20:47So the staff recommendation would have to be amended

1:20:50with an additional motion,

1:20:52and then the final recommendation

1:20:53would have to be as amended.

1:20:57Great, thank you.

1:20:58So that's a good segue.

1:21:00Councillor Downer, I'll turn it over to you.

1:21:02I think you have an amendment.

1:21:03So I've been asked that because I think

1:21:06to put up the motion and staff revise

1:21:08the heritage attributes of the designation by law

1:21:11to be limited to salvageable steel elements

1:21:14of the conservatory structure.

1:21:15And I think this speaks to, even though we,

1:21:18and oh, I need a seconder.

1:21:19Well, councillor Alford said he'd second it.

1:21:22I think this just speaks to,

1:21:24as what Mayor Guthrie had talked about was the city's

1:21:28obligations and record keeping around

1:21:31designated designation of our buildings

1:21:35and what we consider important.

1:21:39That the history of there is also in our records

1:21:43as parts of this building being designated.

1:21:46And that would be the steel,

1:21:48and it would have all the other interesting elements

1:21:53part of the record as well.

1:21:56So I was happy to hear that the university

1:21:58was willing to use a salvageable steel,

1:22:00and I'm sure they're gonna be willing to use,

1:22:02they've said they'd use other salvageable elements

1:22:04into it too.

1:22:06I look forward to them being in discussion

1:22:09with our heritage staff about that design competition.

1:22:14Thank you.

1:22:15Moved and seconded as an amendment,

1:22:16I'd like to ask if there's any questions

1:22:18only on the amendment.

1:22:20Guller and then Billings.

1:22:22Thank you, through your worship.

1:22:23Just seeking clarity from staff.

1:22:26With that amendment, would it allow the university

1:22:29to effectively demolish the structure this winter

1:22:32and then maintain elements per their plan?

1:22:40Through the mayor to the councillor

1:22:41so they could dismantle parts of it,

1:22:44but the structural steel would probably stay this winter

1:22:47until they had worked out a plan for it, I believe.

1:22:52Right, and it wouldn't preclude them

1:22:54from entirely removing the structure

1:22:56and doing something else in sight with the elements.

1:23:01Through the mayor to the councillor, that's correct.

1:23:03Thank you.

1:23:04Thanks, and Billings, please.

1:23:10I also wanted clarity from staff about,

1:23:13okay, so who decides the amount of salvageable steel

1:23:18that has to be reused?

1:23:21Is it the university or is it city staff?

1:23:28Through the mayor to the councillor,

1:23:29so we would work with their engineers,

1:23:32get their engineer report that they have already on that

1:23:35and take a look at it.

1:23:37And then we would take that commemorative plan

1:23:39or the design competition to Heritage Guelph as well.

1:23:43Okay, thanks.

1:23:47Okay, O'Rourke then Alt.

1:23:50Thank you, Marguerite, through you to staff.

1:23:52I'm just reading the last couple of slides

1:23:54in the presentation,

1:23:55and the steel has a different amount of carbon.

1:23:58It's gonna have to be bolted, it can't be welded.

1:24:00So I'm just wondering,

1:24:01because I'm not in this world of construction,

1:24:05I mean, how much cost and complexity does that add

1:24:09to the project for the university?

1:24:12They weren't able to answer

1:24:13because it's sort of a new recommendation for them.

1:24:16I just don't, I don't know if staff have a position on that.

1:24:23Through the mayor to councillor O'Rourke,

1:24:27I believe that was noted for if the steel was used

1:24:30to support the existing structure.

1:24:33A commemorative structure would likely not require

1:24:36the same load on the steel

1:24:38and could take a much different form

1:24:41than what we see today.

1:24:45Okay, thanks.

1:24:51Alt, please.

1:24:54Athery, is this comments or questions or both?

1:24:57It's questions.

1:25:00I'll wait for comments.

1:25:01Comments, go ahead, questions or comments.

1:25:03Thank you very much.

1:25:05I actually want to thank councillor Downer

1:25:08for opposing this particular amendment

1:25:11because I think it's a win-win.

1:25:13And I appreciate that this particular structure

1:25:16is very difficult to preserve.

1:25:19Wood, whether it's cypress or any other wood

1:25:21that's rich in oils and steel structures

1:25:23at the age of which this is are a challenge.

1:25:26Yet at the same time, there is a need to commemorate this.

1:25:30That's been part of the history of the University of Guelph

1:25:33which is now really a world-ranked university

1:25:36for almost a hundred years.

1:25:37So the commemoration makes a lot of sense

1:25:39and I would be remiss if I didn't point out

1:25:42that people like me have been going to this thing

1:25:44for 65 years of our life.

1:25:46It's been there and it's been a focus for many, many people.

1:25:50I think that the university and the city

1:25:52come together with an effective compromise.

1:25:55This will be designated heritage

1:25:57or there will be heritage elements designated

1:25:59and these will then be used to commemorate Guelph's

1:26:02historical agricultural past in a positive fashion

1:26:06that is forward-looking.

1:26:09All right, thank you.

1:26:10Is there anything further?

1:26:12Okay, Gibson and then I have a question as well.

1:26:14So Gibson.

1:26:16Thank you through Mr. Mayor.

1:26:18Good conversation everyone.

1:26:19Thank you very much councillor Downer

1:26:21for bringing forward the amendment.

1:26:23I think it's wise.

1:26:24It's in line with my position on many of these heritage

1:26:27attributes that we want to commemorate and remember

1:26:30but we don't necessarily have to preserve

1:26:32every last piece of it.

1:26:34So I'm hopeful that we can bring this sort of level

1:26:37of realism moving forward to heritage files.

1:26:40I think it's great.

1:26:41And I thank you again for the delegation from the university.

1:26:46Okay, and just before we come to me, councillor Klassen.

1:26:50Yes, I have one question before moving forward.

1:26:55So in preparation for this meeting,

1:26:57I was thinking through some of the greenhouses

1:27:00I've visited in the past.

1:27:01And of course I have some fond memories of growing up

1:27:03in Guelph and visiting the greenhouse

1:27:05at the University of Guelph.

1:27:08And in my research, I looked at a beautiful tropical

1:27:11greenhouse at the experimental farm in Ottawa

1:27:13and I did some quick research and I think in 2015

1:27:16it was renovated and the wood was replaced

1:27:21and there was a significant amount of work done there.

1:27:25And I was just wondering as part of the scope

1:27:28of designating this particular structure,

1:27:32we look at similar projects and what the costs might be

1:27:39from our perspective or is that something

1:27:40that's done entirely outside of the scope of the city?

1:27:46Through the mayor to the councillor.

1:27:48So we do look at similar projects

1:27:49and you'll note in the staff report

1:27:51it does mention other projects

1:27:53and the report that went to Heritage Guelph

1:27:55mentions other projects as well.

1:27:57But we do not look at costs.

1:27:58So we look at the heritage attributes

1:28:00and attachment four of the staff report.

1:28:02Usually it's the heritage attributes

1:28:04and we said eight of the nine criteria.

1:28:07So that's what we look at.

1:28:08We do not look at costs.

1:28:12Okay, I appreciate that.

1:28:14So just a comment because in the spirit of collaboration

1:28:19I'd like to say that something is better than nothing

1:28:22and it can remember a structure is I think better than

1:28:25than getting torn to the ground.

1:28:29But I think there was a strong case here

1:28:30for preserving the structure in its entirety.

1:28:34And there are very few of these structures left in Canada

1:28:38and I think moving forward

1:28:40we're gonna likely see less of them.

1:28:42However, that said, I do think that

1:28:46something is better than nothing.

1:28:48And if we can keep parts of it and keep that spirit alive

1:28:52of the community coming to a place

1:28:55that celebrates our agricultural history

1:28:58then I suppose that is sort of a win.

1:29:02So thanks.

1:29:05Great, thank you.

1:29:05I saw Councillor O'Rourke's hand go up.

1:29:07I think she might have an amendment to the amendment.

1:29:11So go ahead, Councillor O'Rourke.

1:29:14Three.

1:29:15So it's just in the spirit of not having this process

1:29:19be particularly onerous, right?

1:29:20We know that any additional conditions

1:29:23they do have time delays, they do have cost delays.

1:29:26You gotta consult, you gotta bring in engineers

1:29:28that kind of stuff.

1:29:29So I have an amendment that the salvage be

1:29:34to the satisfaction of the University of Guelph.

1:29:40Okay, and it looks like Councillor Billings

1:29:43will second that.

1:29:44Oh, I'm sorry, or Councillor, sorry.

1:29:46Billings, I saw Chew up there as well,

1:29:48but we'll go with Billings

1:29:49because I said the name out loud.

1:29:51Mary-Gathry, I would just.

1:29:53Okay, go ahead, yep.

1:29:55Well, I would just justify it by saying

1:29:58we've heard from the University

1:29:59there's a lot of goodwill around this project.

1:30:02And I don't know what the impact of saying

1:30:04you have to reuse all the salvageable steel or none

1:30:07or I don't know what complexity it adds to the process.

1:30:11So I just wanna believe in the University's goodwill

1:30:14in terms of recognizing this.

1:30:16I'd like to support the designation

1:30:17so that we can say this once was there.

1:30:21But I also wanna leave it up to the University

1:30:23how much they believe is salvageable

1:30:26and also usable in the context of the design

1:30:28they end up with.

1:30:33Yep, a question or comment

1:30:34on the amendment to the amendment, Councillor Downer?

1:30:37So I don't think that's an amendment

1:30:40to a designation by-law.

1:30:42So I'm looking to, I think it's a separate motion.

1:30:46I'm not that I'm arguing against that motion

1:30:49but I do think procedurally this is a,

1:30:54that's just a secondary motion,

1:30:56a standalone third motion like I think.

1:30:59Okay, let me do that.

1:31:00But ask Ms. Walkie to put his hand up.

1:31:06Thank you, Councillor Downer and through the mayor.

1:31:10I do believe if that motion is put forward

1:31:15then I don't believe it's actually a designation by-law

1:31:18at that point in time.

1:31:20And I'm not entirely sure

1:31:24if it would need a designation by-law at that point in time.

1:31:29So it may not even be required

1:31:32that the, we publish notice of designate

1:31:36that it's just we staff work with the university.

1:31:45Okay, just because, if I could again, dumb it down for me.

1:31:49It's just because you kind of go from designate

1:31:52and as you start to strip away, it becomes,

1:31:56there's like a threshold that sort of crossed

1:31:58that makes it more like, okay, we're not saving this thing.

1:32:02So it's now more a collaboration

1:32:05is what you're saying between the city

1:32:06and the university to work together.

1:32:09Okay, because you're diminishing each step

1:32:12to kind of take away, am I saying that right?

1:32:15Through the mayor that is correct.

1:32:16Yeah, okay, okay.

1:32:18So just on this, I can treat this

1:32:22either as an amendment to the amendment, I think,

1:32:24or I could treat it as like another separate motion

1:32:29out of Councillor Downer's motion.

1:32:32But just as I'm thinking about that,

1:32:35I'll just go to Councillor Klassen.

1:32:36And then let's just try to land on votes here

1:32:40and move on, okay, everybody?

1:32:42Yes, through you, Mr. Mayor.

1:32:44Just to stop, I just had a point of clarity.

1:32:46I think there was a previous question

1:32:48and my understanding was there was a response that said

1:32:51we would work with the engineering team

1:32:53at the University of Guelph

1:32:56because they're gonna need to dismantle it.

1:32:59They're gonna need to identify what steel is salvageable

1:33:02versus which steel is not salvageable.

1:33:04And would that at that point not be a conversation

1:33:07between the engineering team and city staff?

1:33:14Through the mayor to the councillor.

1:33:15So it depends on the motion that's put forward.

1:33:17If it's up to the university,

1:33:19then we would kind of remove ourselves

1:33:21from a lot of those discussions.

1:33:25Okay, thanks for that.

1:33:28But just so that I'm clear,

1:33:30if we went forward with Councillor Downer's motion

1:33:33as amended, we would be working with the engineering team

1:33:37to determine what would be salvageable.

1:33:40So it would be a collaborative effort

1:33:44through the mayor to the councillor.

1:33:45So yes, if it's Councillor Downer's motion

1:33:48and no, if it's Councillor O'Rourke's motion.

1:33:51Okay, so in the spirit of collaboration,

1:33:53then we would stick with the first amendment.

1:33:57Okay, thank you.

1:33:59Thank you.

1:34:00So I'm just gonna ask a question here

1:34:01about the clarity about this.

1:34:03I would love your advice on this, Krista.

1:34:05So I'm gonna give you the scenario in my head

1:34:07as to why I'm thinking I wanna support Councillor O'Rourke's.

1:34:10But I need your advice.

1:34:12So if the city under Councillor Downer's motion

1:34:18or amendment, sorry, passes,

1:34:21is there a scenario where there is 1,200 pieces of metal

1:34:27that is deemed salvageable

1:34:30and now the University of Guelph is forced

1:34:33to use 1,200 pieces of salvageable metal

1:34:37to incorporate into some kind of landscaping plan

1:34:40for their garden.

1:34:43Is that the strict and onerous sort of direction

1:34:49that staff would prescribe to the University of Guelph

1:34:53to have to do that work?

1:34:55Whereas I view Councillor O'Rourke's motion as saying,

1:34:59hey, if their landscape architect ideas

1:35:03come back from their students

1:35:07and there's a design element contest

1:35:09and it only needs 120 pieces of salvaged metal

1:35:15that they could move ahead with that

1:35:16and that the city wouldn't be like,

1:35:18no, you gotta use the other 1,000 pieces.

1:35:21And that's where I'm stuck in sort of this onerous direction

1:35:26to the University to commemorate something

1:35:30that they've already said that they would,

1:35:31which we all agree that they said that they would.

1:35:34But the direction that we give to me seems maybe

1:35:37maybe a bit too prescriptive.

1:35:39So I'd love to hear from you,

1:35:41please to help me on this matter.

1:35:46Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

1:35:48So the Councillor Downer motion is that

1:35:54the heritage attributes be limited to salvageable steel

1:35:58elements of the conservatory structure.

1:36:00I don't believe we would require all 1,000 pieces

1:36:04to be used, we would be taking a look at the plan

1:36:06that they put forward.

1:36:08But we would certainly be encouraging them

1:36:10to use many of those pieces.

1:36:13Councillor Erich's motion gets put forward

1:36:19based on what the University said.

1:36:21I believe they'll have design competitions

1:36:23to try to use as much as that as possible

1:36:25and bring it forward in an element that reflects

1:36:27the former use of the building itself.

1:36:33Okay, thank you.

1:36:35Okay, so with that, I think I am gonna make a ruling

1:36:39on the amendment anyways, even before I ask the question,

1:36:44that I believe the amendment that Councillor Ororque

1:36:48is suggesting is an amendment to the amendment

1:36:52that's on the floor.

1:36:53I don't think it has to be separate

1:36:55because it's all wrapped up into one.

1:36:57So I'm gonna state that that amendment is allowed.

1:37:02And I'd like to call the vote on that amendment

1:37:04to the amendment, okay?

1:37:08Yeah, absolutely, you can interrupt me.

1:37:09Yep, Councillor Clausson.

1:37:11Yeah, I just, maybe it's a question

1:37:13and a comment at the same time.

1:37:15So I just, I wanna really be clear

1:37:17before we call the vote on this amendment

1:37:19that if we don't, if we vote in favor

1:37:24of Councillor Ororque's motion,

1:37:27that we don't designate the structure

1:37:30and effectively, as a sit, we lose our role

1:37:35in having a discussion around the future use of the steel

1:37:40or whatever happens with the structure.

1:37:46Through the mayor, the Councillor,

1:37:48if Councillor Ororque's motion moves forward

1:37:50and then it's up to the University,

1:37:51I would suggest that we do not designate

1:37:55and that the property be removed

1:37:57from the municipal register.

1:38:00So make it easier on all of Council.

1:38:03I would suggest that if you, you know,

1:38:05if this passes, we sort of know

1:38:07the trajectory it's going then.

1:38:08If it doesn't pass, then we're kind of back.

1:38:11Point of order then.

1:38:12You go ahead, yep.

1:38:13So point of order then to that, what we just heard,

1:38:16the amendment is contrary to the motion that I've amended.

1:38:20The designation.

1:38:21Right, because the designation would have to be reproved.

1:38:23So I would prefer that we went forward

1:38:27with my amendment, if it passes, then it passes.

1:38:31And then, yeah, it's actually contrary.

1:38:35Okay, no problem.

1:38:36I think Councillor Downer has stated that correctly.

1:38:39So what I'm going to do is I'm going to call

1:38:42the amendment from Councillor Ororque

1:38:43out of order at this time.

1:38:45Just because we need to see if we preserve

1:38:48the designation or not, and that vote is more important.

1:38:52So I will, you know, so now we know what's coming.

1:38:57It's kind of an either or scenario, right?

1:38:59So my preference, so I'm just making a comment then,

1:39:03is that I would rather Councillor Ororque's motion pass.

1:39:08And so I will be voting against this one right now,

1:39:12because I would rather it be the other one.

1:39:14But we'll see how it lands.

1:39:16So I'll call the vote then just on Councillor Downer's motion.

1:39:21And it's that staff revised the heritage attributes

1:39:24of the designation bylaw to be limited

1:39:26to the salvageable steel elements

1:39:28of the conservatory structure.

1:39:30Okay, I'll call that vote right now.

1:39:31Is anyone against that?

1:39:33Raise your hand.

1:39:35So Richardson, Guthrie, Chu, and Ororque, and Billings.

1:39:44So that is five.

1:39:46So I believe that, so sorry, does that fail?

1:39:50No, I can't count.

1:39:52I think that fails.

1:39:58Okay, who's for it?

1:39:59Put up your hand.

1:40:01One, two, three, four, five, six.

1:40:04Yeah, that was right.

1:40:05So it failed.

1:40:06Failed six, five.

1:40:08Okay, so now we know Councillor Ororque's thing doesn't matter.

1:40:11Okay, perfect.

1:40:12So now we're back to the other part of the motion.

1:40:17If we could put those back up on the screen for me.

1:40:34Okay, and so we got both of those now,

1:40:38which will form part of the what just Councillor Downer's

1:40:40motion just passed anyways.

1:40:41So I'm gonna call the vote just on these two, okay?

1:40:44And I'll do them together.

1:40:46Oh, no, doesn't look like it.

1:40:47Ororque, raise your hand, go up.

1:40:49What's up?

1:40:49Yeah, I have a question.

1:40:51Sure.

1:40:52So why can't this property, and I'll apologize.

1:40:56I'm not feeling well, so maybe I'm missing bits.

1:41:02Why can't we just designate that property

1:41:06so that it stays in the record

1:41:08and still let the university do their design competition

1:41:15and come up with something suitable?

1:41:18Am I misunderstanding the process?

1:41:22Yeah, I believe you are, and staff can say that if they wish,

1:41:28but what's in front of us now?

1:41:29We either need to agree or disagree, right?

1:41:33Now, my, and staff can correct me if I'm wrong,

1:41:36but in a way, I would suggest that

1:41:39because councillor Downer's motion just passed

1:41:41that it would probably more correct to vote down number one.

1:41:47Would that not be correct?

1:41:48Because, or does yours kind of,

1:41:53yours ties into number one?

1:41:55Point of order.

1:41:56Was it not an amendment?

1:42:00So this should be changed.

1:42:03Okay, I thought we were doing that as an individual motion.

1:42:08Yeah, it was an amendment.

1:42:09You're right, you're right.

1:42:12You need to put it up on the screen.

1:42:14Okay, we'll give you the time, no problem.

1:42:16We're all gonna become heritage here

1:42:17before we get this done.

1:42:29That's a bit better.

1:42:35Okay, does everyone understand that a bit better then?

1:42:37Seeing that in there now?

1:42:42So my question to staff is if all of these pass as amended,

1:42:47then the university can go ahead and do the,

1:42:51air quotes, demolition,

1:42:53but to the degree of what councillor Downer's

1:42:57motion is, that's correct?

1:42:59That is correct.

1:43:00Okay, okay, perfect.

1:43:02Okay, so I am gonna call the vote then.

1:43:04Is everyone okay with that?

1:43:05Sorry about that, I've messed up a couple of times there

1:43:07tonight, my apologies everybody.

1:43:09Okay, I'm gonna call the vote.

1:43:11Is anyone against?

1:43:15Perfect, we got through it.

1:43:18Okay, thank you very much.

1:43:19That's the end of that item.

1:43:23We are gonna quickly go to a decision report

1:43:28on 601 Scottsdale.

1:43:30We only have one delegation on that matter.

1:43:33I do want to let everyone in the gallery know

1:43:37that my suggestion to you,

1:43:43because I know a lot of you are here probably

1:43:45for the reformatory lands.

1:43:52And I just wanna just give you a heads up that,

1:43:58you know, this might be 10, 15 minutes tops,

1:44:01but there is going to be a break after that.

1:44:04And that break will be another 20 minutes.

1:44:06So I just wanna give you a little bit of a heads up

1:44:09if you're waiting for that moment.

1:44:10It's good to be a little bit longer, okay?

1:44:13So I just wanted to make sure you heard that.

1:44:15601 Scottsdale, we have a decision report on that.

1:44:20And we have one delegation by video.

1:44:25Dana Gilbert is Dana available.

1:44:29And Jack, we just wanna say thank you to you

1:44:30as well for joining us.

1:44:57All right, with that, I am not gonna go to 601

1:45:00because just in case the delegation did not know that,

1:45:03I'm not gonna do that tonight.

1:45:06So we are gonna take our break now.

1:45:08It is 720.

1:45:10I'm gonna ask that everyone come back here

1:45:11to start at 740, okay?

1:45:13And we will start up at that time.

1:45:15Thank you very much.

2:08:34To my colleagues online, this is just a 30 second heads up.

2:08:3830 seconds to one minute.

2:09:43All right, 30 second warning everybody.

2:09:45If everyone could take their seats, please.

2:10:01Okay, everybody, we are going back to the regular schedule

2:10:04as of right now on the agenda.

2:10:06So the next one is the affordable housing,

2:10:08community improvement plan.

2:10:11We're gonna have a presentation from James Goodrum.

2:10:14And we got three delegations that are lined up.

2:10:19And so we will go to you, James,

2:10:24and go from there, thank you.

2:10:29Okay, great.

2:10:31Thank you, so good evening, Mayor, members of council,

2:10:34public and staff.

2:10:35So it's my pleasure to be here

2:10:36to present the draft affordable community improvement plan

2:10:41and the associated financial incentives with that.

2:10:43So what you have before us this evening is a document

2:10:46that is a combination of work across several departments

2:10:49here at City Hall.

2:10:51So the purpose of tonight is to present the draft

2:10:54and receive public feedback.

2:10:56Tonight's not a decision night,

2:10:58but one of the listening and answering questions.

2:11:00And the recommendation reports will be coming back

2:11:03to council on January 21st.

2:11:07So as you know, it's no surprise we're in a housing crisis

2:11:10and time is of the essence.

2:11:12And this community improvement plan is but one tool

2:11:16that we're using to address the crisis,

2:11:18along with many other initiatives

2:11:20that are underway here at the city.

2:11:23That will be included in the housing affordability strategy

2:11:26that's coming to council on December the 10th.

2:11:30In drafting this community improvement plan,

2:11:33we engaged the community in direct meetings.

2:11:37We had meetings with for-profit,

2:11:39not for-profit housing developers.

2:11:43We met with the realtors, the home builders,

2:11:45the developers associations.

2:11:47We met with the accessibility,

2:11:49the planning and economic development advisory committees.

2:11:52We held an open house here at City Hall,

2:11:55and we also had information presented

2:11:56on the Guelph Have Your Save page.

2:11:59Generally, the proposed financial incentive programs

2:12:02were well received, where industry experts felt

2:12:05that the programs would spur affordable housing,

2:12:08while some others were suggesting increased funding

2:12:11at the same time.

2:12:13But what is before you this evening are programs

2:12:15that will incentivize the development

2:12:17of affordable housing, while at the same time

2:12:19recognizing the ability to fund such programs

2:12:22on the tax dollar.

2:12:25So let me take a few moments,

2:12:26and I'll walk you through the plan and programs.

2:12:32So funding for the proposed programs

2:12:34is provided from the Housing Accelerator Fund.

2:12:37The city was allocated $21.4 million in funding,

2:12:41of which $5.2 million of that funding

2:12:45is allocated towards this community improvement plan

2:12:48in the Accessory Dwelling Unit programs.

2:12:52Funding's gonna be provided up front

2:12:53at the time of building permit issuance,

2:12:55and the funding must be allocated by December 31st, 2026.

2:13:00So we've got two years.

2:13:02So I wanna highlight that the financial incentive programs

2:13:06that we're proposing tonight can be combined

2:13:08with other programs offered by the city, the county,

2:13:10upper levels of government and others.

2:13:13Many that we spoke to are looking at combining these incentives

2:13:18with other programs offered through the Canadian

2:13:20Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the county, or both.

2:13:28The plan before you tonight is rooted in research

2:13:31that's espoused within the 2023 State of Housing

2:13:34and Guelph Report and the Draft Housing Affordability Strategy.

2:13:38There's no doubt that we have many pressing housing needs,

2:13:41but the research has identified

2:13:43the following priority areas.

2:13:45The need for smaller household sizes,

2:13:47which includes seniors who may be over housed

2:13:49due to the lack of available single bedroom units

2:13:53and bachelor units.

2:13:54Incentivizing this type of housing development

2:13:57will open up more larger family homes

2:13:59when people are looking to downsize.

2:14:01Nonetheless, we aren't restricting our programs

2:14:05to singles and bachelor's.

2:14:08So it is open to all sizes of units.

2:14:12In addition, Guelph has a rental vacancy rate of just 1.5%,

2:14:16which is below what they term the healthy rate

2:14:20of 3% or more.

2:14:28Through the More Homes Built Faster Act, 2022,

2:14:31the province introduced exemptions and discounts

2:14:34from municipal development-related charges,

2:14:36which include DC development charge exemptions,

2:14:40parkland dedication exemptions,

2:14:42community benefit charge exemptions

2:14:45for affordable residential units.

2:14:48These exemptions came into effect on June the 1st,

2:14:51and they can range anywhere between $30,000 and $50,000

2:14:54per unit.

2:14:56In the table before you now shows you

2:14:58what the affordable rents are.

2:15:00So they have to be at this rate or below

2:15:02for each of those types of units and rental,

2:15:05and then a home ownership rate at $398,000 or below.

2:15:11And that's as per the provincial bulletin.

2:15:14So in order to obtain these exemptions,

2:15:19in addition to renting or selling below that number,

2:15:21that figure shown in the table,

2:15:23the units must remain affordable

2:15:25for a minimum of 25 years as well.

2:15:28So keep in mind with our community improvement plan

2:15:32and programs presented to you tonight,

2:15:34we're proposing further incentives above and beyond

2:15:37what's provided with those development rate

2:15:40charge exemptions, and if you're in the downtown,

2:15:43parking's no longer required as well.

2:15:47You'll notice in the community improvement plan

2:15:49that we have minimum size for units.

2:15:51So we're proposing these minimum sizes

2:15:54following the county's lead when they issue their RFPs

2:15:56for affordable units.

2:15:59The building code does have lesser sizes for units,

2:16:03however smaller sizes do limit the accessibility of units.

2:16:07So that's why we've presented minimum floor areas.

2:16:15So our first program that I'll share with you tonight

2:16:18is the vacant residential unit

2:16:20and vacant space conversion grant.

2:16:23So what we're proposing here is $100,000 grant

2:16:27per affordable unit with an additional $20,000

2:16:32per affordable unit for accessibility features

2:16:36that are beyond what's required

2:16:37in the Ontario Building Code.

2:16:39And this program is targeted towards underutilized space,

2:16:45uninhabitable residential units,

2:16:47or the conversion of vacant space to residential.

2:16:53So if you think about, you know,

2:16:55we're trying to unlock units on those second

2:16:57and third stories in the downtown.

2:17:01And this program will be utilizing $3.2 million

2:17:04from the half, the Housing Accelerator Fund.

2:17:08We came to this number by engaging with other municipalities

2:17:12and our local industry professionals.

2:17:15So in addition to these exemptions from the province,

2:17:18this number made sense,

2:17:21and these prices will hold firm for 25 years.

2:17:31So our next program, the second program

2:17:33is the new affordable housing grant,

2:17:35which we're looking at funding options,

2:17:37but we're going to utilize half in the short term.

2:17:40The challenge with the half timelines

2:17:42is that it's pretty tough to bring a new building

2:17:46to construction and finish within two years.

2:17:50So this program is both for purpose built rental

2:17:52and ownership, the program and sense people

2:17:55to include some affordable units within their development.

2:17:59So it's not about building, you know,

2:18:01a 60 unit affordable housing development.

2:18:04It's building a 60 unit development

2:18:07where perhaps 10 of those units

2:18:10meet the affordability thresholds.

2:18:12Having a mix of housing types and income levels

2:18:14within a development is desired.

2:18:17So we arrived at the $25,000 per unit grant,

2:18:21knowing that a traditional tax increment financing grant

2:18:24would generate a tax grant of $2,500 per year

2:18:28for an affordable housing unit

2:18:31that meets the city, the counties,

2:18:33and provincial definition of affordability.

2:18:36So that grant would be over 10 years

2:18:37after the unit was built and reassessed

2:18:39by the Municipal Property Assessment Corporation.

2:18:43After listening to their stakeholders

2:18:45that I explained before,

2:18:47I was felt that instead of providing that $25,000

2:18:50over 10 years on the back end of development,

2:18:53that an upfront grant of $25,000 would be more beneficial

2:18:57and that could be combined

2:18:58with the other incentives we're offering.

2:19:01Again, the municipal charge exemptions, no parking downtown,

2:19:05and combining it with other incentives

2:19:08that other levels of government

2:19:09and organizations are providing.

2:19:16Actually, I should note that the development charge exemptions,

2:19:19parkland, community benefits,

2:19:21that's $40,000 to $60,000 per unit.

2:19:23So you'd be adding another $25,000 grant upfront.

2:19:27So that brings us up a little higher

2:19:30and then you combine that with other programs

2:19:32that the county offers, CMHC,

2:19:35and it's a pretty strong incentive.

2:19:40Then our final program this evening

2:19:41that I'll talk about is the program

2:19:45for additional dwelling units or ADUs, as they're called.

2:19:51So within this program, we have two streams,

2:19:53one for the homeowner and one for businesses developers.

2:19:58Only the business or developer stream needs to be authorized

2:20:00through a community improvement plan,

2:20:02but we're presenting both to you this evening.

2:20:05So both of these streams are going to be funded through half

2:20:09and ADUs are dwelling units that are self-contained

2:20:12and they're subordinate to and either found

2:20:15within the same building or in the same lot

2:20:17as a primary dwelling unit.

2:20:20ADUs continue to be a real strong form

2:20:22of new residential building activity here in Guelph,

2:20:25and that's for a variety of factors.

2:20:29The lower cost to construct relative

2:20:31to other development types.

2:20:33So the homeowner stream is targeted to homeowners

2:20:36that will continue to live on the property

2:20:39while providing a new ADU.

2:20:42The stream provides proponents

2:20:43with a $20,000 construction grant for the unit itself.

2:20:47There's an additional $20,000 if your infrastructure,

2:20:51like your sanitary and water service laterals

2:20:55need upgrading for increased loads.

2:20:57There's an additional $20,000

2:20:58that that service needs to be upgraded,

2:21:02as well as an additional grant of $10,000

2:21:05if you provide accessibility features above and beyond

2:21:10what the building code requires.

2:21:12And these accessibility features were drafted

2:21:14with input and feedback

2:21:15from the accessibility advisory committee.

2:21:22On the developer builder stream,

2:21:24so it's targeted at larger projects

2:21:27that involve a minimum of three to a maximum of six ADUs

2:21:31with a $10,000 construction grant per unit.

2:21:35A one-time grant of $20,000

2:21:37for those infrastructure upgrades if required,

2:21:39which they probably would

2:21:40when we were talking about three to six units.

2:21:45And obviously similarly, the accessibility grant

2:21:48of up to 10,000 for going above and beyond

2:21:51what the building code requires.

2:21:54So for both the homeowner and the developer project stream,

2:21:59we're proposing an affordability requirement of 15 years.

2:22:03And this is based on research.

2:22:04So that's different than the first two programs

2:22:06I spoke about that were at 25 years.

2:22:08For the ADUs, the 15 years is based on research

2:22:12on comparator municipalities and interviews

2:22:14that planning staff conducted over the summer

2:22:17with developers in this field.

2:22:22A 25 year affordability requirement

2:22:24was felt to significantly limit

2:22:26the pool of potential applicants to the program.

2:22:32As we're in tight timelines again, December 31st, 2026,

2:22:37we feel that with the 15 year affordability requirement,

2:22:41the program will be attractive.

2:22:47So in summary, the feedback we heard

2:22:51was largely in favor of the CIP programs

2:22:53as a tool to incentivize the affordable units.

2:22:56So we plan on listening to the discussion tonight,

2:23:00listening to the comments, answering any questions

2:23:02the council, the public may have,

2:23:04and bringing back the report, as I said,

2:23:06a final recommendation report for January 21st.

2:23:10So we can start moving forward

2:23:11and get some of these units in the construction hopper.

2:23:16Thank you.

2:23:19Thank you, James.

2:23:21Appreciate your presentation.

2:23:24And so let's just go quickly to our delegations

2:23:28that have come forward.

2:23:29David Douglas is first in person.

2:23:33Is David Douglas here?

2:23:36Oh, yep, okay, there you are, David, come on down.

2:23:42And is Mike Labby here?

2:23:44Mike, okay, great, you're in the wings.

2:23:48And the third is Morgan Dandy, is Morgan here?

2:23:50Yeah, okay, you're in the front, perfect.

2:23:52So you three are ready to go.

2:23:53David, I'll turn it over to you again,

2:23:55no more than five minutes, okay?

2:23:57Go ahead.

2:23:58Thank you.

2:23:59Thank you, Mr. Mayor and members of council

2:24:01for the opportunity to speak to you.

2:24:04I'm not going to speak to any of the technical specifics

2:24:08of the matters before you.

2:24:12I know little about them

2:24:13and most of them are well beyond me.

2:24:16But I do want to encourage you to avail yourself

2:24:18of this rare opportunity to expedite the production

2:24:22of affordable housing,

2:24:23which our community desperately needs.

2:24:27You have an experienced and credible

2:24:31nonprofit housing organization before you

2:24:33who'll be making their presentation after me.

2:24:38And they're making a serious and strongly argued proposal,

2:24:41which by all accounts,

2:24:43at least that which is available to me,

2:24:46will materially contribute to the delivery

2:24:48of housing in our community.

2:24:52The proponents are not asking for grants, subsidies,

2:24:56forgivable loans, or similar special treatment.

2:25:00They will not draw upon the Housing Accelerator Fund

2:25:04from the federal government.

2:25:06They are therefore not competing for the scarce resources

2:25:09that other housing organizations might wish to access.

2:25:14They do not require access to specific city-owned resources.

2:25:19And the recommendations will have no impact

2:25:22on the mayor's proposed budget,

2:25:24so there's no direct call on the tax base,

2:25:27as I understand it.

2:25:29And they're not seeking special treatment,

2:25:32such as an exemption.

2:25:34My understanding is that they are seeking a tax deferral,

2:25:39which will be fully repaid as a stream of revenues

2:25:42for the city.

2:25:44Once developing gets underway,

2:25:45an occupancy takes place.

2:25:48All development charges and all other fees and charges

2:25:52will be repaid and full to the city.

2:25:56This same tax deferral mechanism,

2:25:58which when instituted by the city,

2:26:01would also be open to any other non-profit,

2:26:04affordable housing delivery agency.

2:26:08So they're proposing an instrument in collaboration

2:26:11with the city, a form of tax increment financing,

2:26:15as I've generally understood it,

2:26:17that the city itself has previously used

2:26:20and that has been successfully used

2:26:22in the multiplicity of other jurisdictions

2:26:25for over 50 years.

2:26:28It is not an untried experimental device

2:26:31with unknown and unacceptable risks.

2:26:35They propose using an instrument

2:26:37that several neighboring municipalities,

2:26:39such as the region of Waterloo,

2:26:41cities of Waterloo, Cambridge, and Kitchener,

2:26:44are now using.

2:26:46So the question is, for me anyway,

2:26:49what's in the way here?

2:26:50What's getting in the way?

2:26:52What of any planning legislation?

2:26:54What official plan amendments?

2:26:56What zoning by-law amendments?

2:26:59What financial risk analysis?

2:27:01Or otherwise, tells us that there are obstacles here.

2:27:06But giving the burning priority

2:27:08that is affordable housing,

2:27:10and given that there's no Ontario Housing Corporation

2:27:14delivering these houses for us, as we used to have,

2:27:18what could hold the city up?

2:27:20What could hold up its decision

2:27:22to move ahead with this constructive

2:27:24and timely collaboration?

2:27:27So I strongly urge you to make this collaboration

2:27:30a priority.

2:27:32Institute the recommendations now

2:27:34and expedite the production of affordable housing

2:27:38in our community.

2:27:39Thank you.

2:27:42Thank you, David.

2:27:43Is there any questions?

2:27:45Seeing none, thank you for your presentation.

2:27:47Thank you.

2:27:48And Mike Klebe is here.

2:27:52Mike, come on down.

2:27:54From Home Opportunities Nonprofit.

2:27:56Thank you for coming, Mike.

2:27:57And speaking of Mike, the mic is on,

2:28:01so you can start whenever you're ready.

2:28:03I have a little bit of a point of order

2:28:05before I speak, just to make sure things are clear.

2:28:09We originally were coming forward

2:28:11to speak to an amendment to the CIP.

2:28:14But Councillor Goller and staff have worked out

2:28:17a different proposed recommendation

2:28:19that is unrelated to the CIP,

2:28:22but related to the housing issue itself.

2:28:25So I can say what I wanna say now,

2:28:27related to that motion,

2:28:29but the motion itself isn't related

2:28:30to the approval of the CIP that you're receiving.

2:28:34So it's just a question of whether you receive the CIP

2:28:37and comments related to it.

2:28:38Then I come back and speak to the very motion

2:28:40that Councillor Goller is raising.

2:28:44Yeah, so our procedural bylaw wouldn't allow that.

2:28:47So our procedural bylaw entails that delegates must speak

2:28:51to the items that are on the agenda.

2:28:54So you may be in the know of a potential motion

2:28:58that might be coming forward from Councillor Goller,

2:29:01but the rest of the public does not know that.

2:29:04And so I would ask that you keep your comments

2:29:08as best as you can, please, to the item that's on the agenda.

2:29:12Of course, you could speak to what you like about it

2:29:16or what you don't like or what you would like to see.

2:29:19You know, that's all in order.

2:29:21So I've just asked, again, I don't know what you're gonna say,

2:29:23but if you could try to stay within those guardrails,

2:29:26I'd appreciate it,

2:29:27because I don't wanna have to interrupt you or anybody

2:29:29about not speaking to the item that is on the agenda.

2:29:33But with those parameters, does that make sense to you?

2:29:36That works for me.

2:29:37Okay.

2:29:38Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

2:29:39So I will clerk, so just be aware of time.

2:29:41We can start the clock as of now.

2:29:42Okay, go right ahead.

2:29:44Thank you, Mr. Mayor, fellow counselors, counselors.

2:29:51I will try to keep my comments brief,

2:29:54because I actually wanted to be here and available

2:29:56for questions as opposed to making

2:29:58a full five-minute presentation.

2:30:00I think I've mentioned this before,

2:30:02but I've been, March of next year will be 45 years

2:30:06that I've been working on affordable housing

2:30:07as a full-time career.

2:30:10My goal from the beginning has been to try to figure out

2:30:13a way to come up with a solution to our housing problems,

2:30:16not since we're away to build housing.

2:30:19And so very quickly, what I realized when I switched

2:30:22from doing affordable rental in 1993 to affordable ownership

2:30:26is that there are not sufficient grants and subsidies

2:30:29to actually provide a comprehensive solution

2:30:31to the housing needs that we have.

2:30:34And so we started to work on systems

2:30:37that didn't require grants and subsidies.

2:30:39And so they're primarily lending systems.

2:30:42And so what we were going to do with staff

2:30:45was together go to the province to borrow money

2:30:49for housing in this case, so as a capital project.

2:30:53But the suggestion was to look at the CIP, which we did.

2:30:57And with that in mind, we started talking about a TIF,

2:31:00so a tax incremental grant,

2:31:02because we don't want a permanent grant.

2:31:04What we've done is proposed that we do a grant,

2:31:08but we commit to repaying it over time.

2:31:11And the repayment time that it would take us

2:31:14is we'd be paying fully the amount associated

2:31:17with the TIF in 10 years,

2:31:20and repay what was not paid in the earlier 10 years

2:31:23within 13 years.

2:31:24So it happens quite quickly.

2:31:27What I do want to explain is the TIF itself to be clear.

2:31:29The TIF is the difference between the current taxes

2:31:32that are paid on the land and the taxes that will be paid

2:31:36when it becomes a rental project.

2:31:38That's the amount of money that we're talking about

2:31:40in terms of what we call a deferral,

2:31:42what would be actually a grant.

2:31:44Also, I wanted to be clear that it's not until 2028

2:31:50that our project become active,

2:31:52and therefore there would be a relationship

2:31:54to your tax base.

2:31:55So it's nothing that's happening in the short term.

2:31:59In the medium term, the implications are minimal,

2:32:01and that's the last thing I want to spend

2:32:03a little bit of time on.

2:32:04What do I mean by minimal?

2:32:06So we had a public meeting just recently

2:32:08for a project we're working on in Clare Road,

2:32:11and out comes a 26-year-old woman

2:32:14who's living with her parents,

2:32:16who bought their first house when they were 24 years old,

2:32:19and she did not believe she'd have a chance

2:32:21to become a homeowner.

2:32:22Now all of a sudden, through the model we're working with,

2:32:25with your help, we'll be able to give her a chance

2:32:27to become a homeowner.

2:32:29So here's somebody that's already flushing the toilets,

2:32:31already drinking the water, already producing garbage,

2:32:34already using all the facilities and Guelph

2:32:36that's gonna move into one of our units.

2:32:39What is the cost to the taxpayer of a same person

2:32:42just moving from one place to another?

2:32:44So that the impact during the time

2:32:46where the taxes are being granted back is minimal,

2:32:51but as time goes on, she has a family,

2:32:53she has kids, and she starts to add,

2:32:54and that's when we start repaying taxes

2:32:57on a break-even basis to the city.

2:32:58So that applied, we also ran into our grandmother

2:33:02that was very excited to get out of her home,

2:33:04which was spoken to earlier today that would move in.

2:33:06She already lives in the city,

2:33:08and a man and his son who had already taken advantage

2:33:12of an options project that we'd done before in the city

2:33:15who was excited about becoming homeowners.

2:33:17So we're planning to serve people who already live in Guelph.

2:33:20And so the impact related to the fact

2:33:23we're not paying taxes immediately,

2:33:25but over time growing to paint it all back

2:33:27is quite minimal.

2:33:30And that, and so the reason we've said

2:33:35this is for non-profit dealer agencies,

2:33:37we don't intend to be the only people delivering in Guelph.

2:33:40We wanna do at least 1,000 units a year,

2:33:43that's what the city needs,

2:33:44and we don't expect to be doing it all ourselves.

2:33:47So we wanted there to be ability through our request

2:33:50to allow all the non-profit agencies

2:33:52to help us deliver the 1,000 units a year that we need.

2:33:56And thank you, everybody.

2:33:57I'm here to answer questions.

2:34:00Well, thank you very much for your presentation.

2:34:03Councillor Goller, and then to Downer,

2:34:08I just want us to stick to the item

2:34:13that's on the agenda, okay, everybody?

2:34:16So please let's do that.

2:34:18Thank you.

2:34:19Thank you, Mayor Worship.

2:34:20Thank you for your presentation.

2:34:22It's my understanding that other communities,

2:34:25community improvement plan for affordable housing

2:34:28have this TIF model embedded.

2:34:31Could you tell me a little bit about the other communities,

2:34:34like I believe that Cambridge Waterloo Kitchener,

2:34:36they have a similar model in place?

2:34:39It's a very common tool.

2:34:41Guelph yourselves have used it related

2:34:43to some of the projects that options did.

2:34:45You've used it related to Brownfield sites.

2:34:48City of Toronto completely waves their taxes

2:34:52for 99 years in terms of their TIF arrangement.

2:34:55So it's a very, very common tool that's been used

2:34:58for decades in terms of the city.

2:35:00So the various cities around the province.

2:35:03I can't think of one that hasn't used it in some form.

2:35:07Primarily the Brownfield sites is the most common,

2:35:09but related to affordable housing,

2:35:11you know, Hamilton is doing it.

2:35:13Waterloo has done it in certain cases.

2:35:16Even a place like Barrie has been talking about doing it.

2:35:20Thank you.

2:35:21Thank you, Worship.

2:35:23Thank you, and Downer, please.

2:35:26Thank you for you, Mr. Mayor.

2:35:27So I was just checking.

2:35:30So these are affordable units.

2:35:34So they're not sold at market price.

2:35:37So the definition of affordability

2:35:39for the city and the province based on what they say is,

2:35:43I think it's 398,000.

2:35:47So are these affordable?

2:35:49Are these at that price or below?

2:35:52Good question.

2:35:53There's a lot of definitions of affordability.

2:35:55The one that we've been working with as our goal

2:35:59is that 30% of the units can be carried below the income

2:36:05that qualifies for 80% of the average rent level in Guelph.

2:36:10That is the federal definition for affordability,

2:36:13which is also recognized by the province.

2:36:17Our method of handling the homes is that people pay

2:36:20at market value and they carry it,

2:36:22what they can afford to carry.

2:36:24In some cases, the market value will be below that figure.

2:36:28In other cases, it'll be the carrying cost

2:36:30that's below that figure.

2:36:31But we want to be using the federal definition

2:36:34for affordability because we wanna be serving

2:36:36exactly the same people who would be served

2:36:38through the federal subsidized rental programs.

2:36:42Oh, so it's a federal definition of affordable.

2:36:45So it's not the city's, so, okay, so I see,

2:36:53so I see, so it, yeah, so, okay,

2:36:57that may complicate things a bit.

2:36:58But anyway, the other question is,

2:37:00has the province made any commitment

2:37:02for the request for 75 million or CMHC for the 96 million?

2:37:09So CMHC has confirmed that we meet

2:37:11their policy guidelines related to borrowing,

2:37:14but they can't confirm the 96

2:37:16until we make an application to them.

2:37:18Provinces done the same thing.

2:37:20They've confirmed that we qualify to borrow from them,

2:37:22but they've told us we have to come in partnership

2:37:25with a city in order to borrow.

2:37:28Agreeing to the TIF arrangement shows your partnership

2:37:31and that will allow us to go to the province

2:37:33to borrow the money.

2:37:34But once we have the TIF arrangement,

2:37:36we don't exclusively have to go to the province.

2:37:37We could borrow from credit unions,

2:37:39we could borrow from the federal government,

2:37:41we could borrow from any source

2:37:44that is interested in our model.

2:37:46And the credit unions have been the most interested

2:37:48in what we're doing.

2:37:50So these may not be affordable units by definition,

2:37:55even under the Canadian model, right?

2:37:57Under the federal model?

2:37:59They will always be affordable

2:38:01under the definition of the federal model, yes.

2:38:03Okay, so how long would they be affordable for?

2:38:07Good question.

2:38:09The way that our model works is every time a home sells,

2:38:12it frees up the money to provide a replacement unit.

2:38:15So we will guarantee affordability

2:38:18in terms of the portfolio of the number of units

2:38:20we've committed to Guelph in perpetuity.

2:38:23But it won't be in that particular location,

2:38:25which works within the federal definition as well.

2:38:27You have to maintain the number of units

2:38:29that are affordable, you don't have to maintain them

2:38:31in one particular location.

2:38:33So I could buy one and flip it in a couple of years?

2:38:38You could buy one and sell it in a couple of years

2:38:41and all of the money that we'd lent to you

2:38:43would be passed on to the next person of a similar income

2:38:46in another unit within the city of Guelph.

2:38:49But that person will have added affordable price

2:38:53and then get to benefit.

2:38:54The next person would get an affordable price, exactly.

2:38:57Point over to the motion.

2:38:58No, no, not on the same unit, but anyway, okay.

2:39:02Not on that same unit, though.

2:39:03That's correct, it would move from unit to unit.

2:39:05Now, remembering when that unit sells,

2:39:07all the benefit that Guelph gave to that unit is given back.

2:39:12Okay.

2:39:15So not to get too far into a specific,

2:39:17like development plan,

2:39:18because that's not why we're here,

2:39:20but we appreciate the concept.

2:39:23I would definitely say that part out loud.

2:39:26And so, in working with Councillor Goller,

2:39:30perhaps there's something that he might bring forward

2:39:32as a discussion point after we kind of solidify

2:39:34the CIP item that's here.

2:39:37So I would just say stay tuned, okay?

2:39:41I don't know if there's another.

2:39:42Okay, Councillor, all just again,

2:39:44in the premise of the item that we're here

2:39:46not to get into a specific development matter,

2:39:50please just keep that in mind

2:39:51before you ask the question, go ahead.

2:39:53Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

2:39:55I believe that I'm following on Councillor Goller's

2:39:58questioning.

2:39:59Mr. Lebe, thanks for being in front of us.

2:40:01The first question that I have to ask you,

2:40:03because we don't have a TIF right now.

2:40:07Why here?

2:40:07Why not Hamilton, Waterloo or Coingwood?

2:40:12Well, we basically go where we're,

2:40:14oh, through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:40:17I will get that habit of mine.

2:40:20We are in the habit of going to places

2:40:23where people are interested in providing affordable housing.

2:40:26So we don't go look, but we're invited

2:40:28to various communities.

2:40:29So in this instance, the local individual

2:40:33who had worked with me at Options for Homes in the past

2:40:36was very interested in bringing housing to Guelph.

2:40:38He found an opportunity and we've been excited

2:40:41to work here ever since that was discovered.

2:40:45Thank you.

2:40:46The next question follows up almost directly

2:40:48on Councillor Goller.

2:40:50And that's the federal definition of affordability.

2:40:52So the question for me is,

2:40:55how much is an affordable unit at the federal level?

2:41:00Well, staff may actually have those figures

2:41:03if we relate to the carrying cost at 80%

2:41:06of the average rent level in Guelph.

2:41:09But we're talking in terms of $1,000

2:41:12for a bachelor, $1,100, $1,200 for a one bedroom,

2:41:16$1,400 for a two, we intend to be below those carrying costs.

2:41:25Thank you, Councillor.

2:41:26I think you said thank you when you were muted

2:41:28and now you've unmuted.

2:41:29So I just want to make sure.

2:41:30Thank you very much.

2:41:32Just trying to cover you so you don't say anything

2:41:35that you don't want to say there.

2:41:37All right.

2:41:40That looks like it's it.

2:41:41So again, I would just say stay tuned, I guess,

2:41:43for after we kind of finish off on the CIP here, okay?

2:41:46Thank you very much for your presentation.

2:41:49Morgan Dandy, come on up.

2:41:57It says here Morgan Dandy on behalf of Lily Padd Community.

2:42:01So come on down when you can.

2:42:19Sorry, go ahead, Morgan, whenever you're ready.

2:42:24I actually tear alone.

2:42:27Good evening, Mayor, Council, staff and fellow Guelphites.

2:42:31Thank you for the opportunity to address

2:42:33the Draft Guelph Housing Accelerator Fund

2:42:36Community Improvement Plan.

2:42:38My name is Morgan Dandy and tonight

2:42:41I am representing Lily Padd Communities.

2:42:45Lily Padd Communities is a nascent organization

2:42:48working to create alternative pathways

2:42:51to appropriate attainable, affordable housing,

2:42:56whether through tendency or ownership,

2:42:59specifically for low income individuals and families.

2:43:05We are grateful for the work staff has done

2:43:08to create the draft half CIP before Council today.

2:43:13And we look forward to hearing about the additional work

2:43:17mentioned in the letter from Home Opportunities Nonprofit

2:43:22to make this draft even better.

2:43:26While this draft presents a possible path for some

2:43:29to create additional affordable housing

2:43:31as defined by the province,

2:43:33we wonder if it goes far enough to be truly effective.

2:43:38The figures provided seem inadequate

2:43:41to incentivize individual homeowners

2:43:43to provide affordable housing versus market rate,

2:43:47given that over 15 years a homeowner

2:43:50will have considerably less rent collected

2:43:53than incentives provided.

2:43:56The idea of a project of three to six ADUs is intriguing

2:44:02and Lily Padd Communities would require

2:44:04some additional information about what constitutes

2:44:07a project before we could adequately analyze

2:44:11if that stream would be something that would work for us.

2:44:16And again, the figures seem a little insufficient

2:44:19to incentivize this type of build.

2:44:23The half is a tool to be used by municipalities

2:44:26to create affordable homes faster,

2:44:30yet the benchmarks having to be used

2:44:32to define this affordability are inaccurate

2:44:36for a certain low income demographic,

2:44:39where even affording an appropriate room is unattainable.

2:44:45This is where Lily Padd Communities is working

2:44:48to find bridges over the gaps

2:44:50for low income individuals and families

2:44:54to obtain adequate and appropriate housing

2:44:58at rates affordable to them.

2:45:02By collaborating with packed homes,

2:45:04we can provide innovative and green construction techniques

2:45:09to get homes built fast.

2:45:12We believe there is an avenue for our model

2:45:15within this community improvement plan,

2:45:18specifically in accessory dwelling units

2:45:21and through potential brownfield redevelopment.

2:45:25We're excited to learn more

2:45:27about the new affordable residential unit grant stream

2:45:31when the motion is able to be fully incorporated

2:45:34in future budget deliberations.

2:45:37The draft half CIP is a good start for Guelph

2:45:41to create some truly attainable affordable housing

2:45:45and Lily Padd Communities looks forward

2:45:48to being a part of the process.

2:45:52We hope council will receive this draft today

2:45:55and work to include the necessary funding changes

2:45:58to further unlock affordable housing opportunities

2:46:01in the affordable residential unit grant stream.

2:46:05Lily Padd Communities looks forward to working with the city

2:46:09to begin providing alternate models

2:46:12of appropriate attainable affordable housing,

2:46:17be it rental units or owned.

2:46:20Let's keep low income individuals and families housed.

2:46:25Thank you.

2:46:27Thank you, Morgan for your presentation.

2:46:29Is there any questions?

2:46:33Hearing and seeing none, thank you very much.

2:46:37Okay, we are back to us here.

2:46:47Yeah, I was in the literally in the middle of saying

2:46:50back to us now, but we need to go to the phones.

2:46:55And if I could just not have people yell

2:46:57from the chambers, I would appreciate that.

2:46:59If I'm gonna go to the phones

2:47:01and I'm gonna go into the room as well,

2:47:04we're gonna just take five minutes,

2:47:06four or five minutes, five, one, nine, eight, three, seven,

2:47:10five, six, oh, three, that would be great.

2:47:14And I did see someone else just stand up randomly here.

2:47:17So I'll go to you first when we come back

2:47:19in that four minute break, okay?

2:47:20And we'll just need your name

2:47:22when you come up to the mic, I'll call you up, okay?

2:47:24No problem, just give us like four minutes to wait.

2:49:50Okay, this is just a 30 second warning.

2:49:52Maybe everyone can just kind of take their seat there.

2:49:54And so far we've got no one that's called in.

2:49:57So just to just give us 20 more seconds here

2:49:59and then we'll go to you, sir.

2:50:23Clerks, we're good.

2:50:24Okay, we'll just go in the room then.

2:50:26So I need to put on my glasses here.

2:50:29Thank you for coming down.

2:50:30Just for the record, we just need someone to,

2:50:32you just have to state your name.

2:50:33And is there anyone else?

2:50:36No, so just yourself, sir.

2:50:37Go right ahead, so I'll see you

2:50:38and then you got your time.

2:50:40Go ahead.

2:50:41This is Eric Martin and I'm here to provide feedback

2:50:44on a specific part of the plan.

2:50:47And that's what's listed as a program stream

2:50:50and was referred to as the developer stream here tonight.

2:50:55I've had lots of great conversations with the city staff.

2:50:58They have taken all my calls and emails, so I commend them.

2:51:03The report shows that they've listened

2:51:05to a lot of stakeholders and I'm here tonight

2:51:08as a landlord.

2:51:09So earlier speakers been in this business

2:51:12since for 45 years, but I bought my first rental property

2:51:16in Guelph in 81.

2:51:17So I've been a landlord in Guelph since 81

2:51:20and I'm not a developer.

2:51:22I only have five bungalows, but the way the plan is worded

2:51:28right now when you're looking for feedback

2:51:30is that it's three to six units, which excludes me.

2:51:35So on my five bungalows, I could be building ADUs,

2:51:40which would contribute housing.

2:51:42In fact, I've built one and we started on July the eighth.

2:51:47The tenant moved in already.

2:51:49So it's very nimble.

2:51:51It's a one bedroom unit.

2:51:52So it's contributing housing and it's contributing

2:51:56a small unit, but the way the wording is right now,

2:51:59it's listed as a project stream.

2:52:02The staff called it developer stream here tonight.

2:52:06I'm kind of surprised, but if you lowered the minimum

2:52:10from three, which is where the wording is right now,

2:52:13to zero, there would be more people could participate.

2:52:21So I believe just from the April meeting

2:52:24that there's a thousand ADUs in the city currently.

2:52:28So there's already, you know, those people,

2:52:31those landlords could be adding units,

2:52:37but not the way it's worded right now.

2:52:42It's a very simple change.

2:52:43Just get rid of the minimum.

2:52:44You might consider getting rid of the maximum,

2:52:49but certainly the minimum.

2:52:50So if there's a thousand ADUs out there now,

2:52:53they're probably, I'm guessing, basement apartments,

2:52:57and they probably have backyards.

2:53:01So if you're up against, the money's gonna run out

2:53:04or get clawed back, and other speakers said,

2:53:08there's probably not the uptake.

2:53:10Like it's not much of an incentive

2:53:12for that long of a period of affordability.

2:53:15I'm skeptical about delivering the number of units,

2:53:21because it's just a guess.

2:53:23It's not a criticism.

2:53:25It's not, because they've been amazing,

2:53:27but just reduce the minimum to zero, or one.

2:53:32Not zero, but one.

2:53:34That's my feedback.

2:53:35The staff knew I was coming, but I wanted you to hear.

2:53:39Great.

2:53:41Thank you very much.

2:53:43And so I'll go to Councillor Goller for questions.

2:53:47Thank you.

2:53:48Thank you for your presentation.

2:53:49And just to be clear with the incentive,

2:53:52you were talking about the one for the additional

2:53:55dual-in unit, or the incentive that is provided,

2:54:01the $10,000 plus potentially an additional 20,

2:54:05plus an additional 10, if it's accessible.

2:54:07Would that be enough incentive for you to encourage you

2:54:09to build one or two additional dual-in units

2:54:13and maintain them at the affordable rate for 15 years?

2:54:16That, yeah, it's an option.

2:54:19Right now it's not an option.

2:54:20Okay, okay, well, I appreciate that.

2:54:22Thank you.

2:54:23And Councillor Oroarke has a question as well.

2:54:29Okay, nope, not anymore.

2:54:30Is there any other questions?

2:54:34Seeing none, thank you for coming down.

2:54:36Yeah, I thought I saw someone else pop up.

2:54:39Susan Watson, come on down.

2:54:46Welcome, and I'll turn it over to you.

2:54:48Thank you.

2:54:49Mayor Guthrie and members of council,

2:54:51there are several aspects of the staff report

2:54:53that I'd like to address,

2:54:55and I'm going to start with the affordable monthly

2:54:58rental rate and ownership benchmarks

2:55:00on page three of the staff report.

2:55:03The rental prices that are listed in figure one

2:55:06are not affordable.

2:55:09I recognize that this is a definition

2:55:11and set of figures imposed by the province,

2:55:15but I would like Guelph City Council

2:55:16to consider starting to use the term market affordable

2:55:20in these situations to create greater clarity for citizens.

2:55:24These benchmarks are linked to average rental rates

2:55:28in a given market and then set 20% below that rate.

2:55:32So if the cost of housing is surging,

2:55:34then so is the affordability benchmark.

2:55:37And it doesn't appear that these rates

2:55:39take utilities into account.

2:55:42What if we look at these numbers

2:55:43through a renters income lens?

2:55:46It's generally accepted that in order

2:55:48for your housing to be affordable,

2:55:50housing costs should take up no more

2:55:52than 30% of your gross income.

2:55:55So even without taking utilities into account,

2:55:58in order to have the 1,500 a month

2:56:01for a one-bedroom apartment be 30% of your income,

2:56:04you would have to be making $60,000 a year.

2:56:07Basically a professional salary like a new teacher

2:56:10or a recently graduated engineer.

2:56:13A minimum wage worker in Guelph making $17.20 an hour

2:56:17for a 40 hour work week,

2:56:19earns just under $36,000 a year.

2:56:23The affordable one-bedroom apartments

2:56:25we're being asked to subsidize

2:56:26would be 60% of that person's income.

2:56:29And even the affordable bachelor apartment

2:56:31doesn't meet the 30% threshold

2:56:33for a minimum wage employee,

2:56:35clocking in at 39% of their income.

2:56:37And also that appears to be before utilities.

2:56:41And clearly no one who is on social assistance

2:56:44can afford any of these units,

2:56:47much less people who are living in the many tents

2:56:50now scattered throughout our community.

2:56:54So please let's start talking about this category of housing

2:56:57as market affordable.

2:56:58It's actually not affordable in any meaningful way

2:57:01for low income Guelphites.

2:57:05The other thing I want to address

2:57:06is where public money is going.

2:57:09Councillor Caron pointed out in relationship

2:57:11to the matter of whether or not Enbridge pays fees

2:57:14to the city that you as counselors

2:57:17have a fiduciary duty to make the best financial decisions

2:57:21in the interests of citizens.

2:57:23The near 30 year experiment of leaving the provision

2:57:27of really affordable housing to the private sector

2:57:31has been an unmitigated disaster.

2:57:35It is a shamefully failed experiment.

2:57:38And we need to recognize this

2:57:40and stop throwing public dollars at developers

2:57:43expecting them to do something different.

2:57:46The fact that units only have to be affordable

2:57:48for 25 years, I actually find outrageous.

2:57:53What private sector investor would ever put 3.5 million

2:57:56or 1.5 million into an investment

2:57:59that would be worth precisely zero to them

2:58:03at the end of 25 years?

2:58:05No wonder we're not making any progress

2:58:07on the affordable housing front

2:58:09if all of our public investment turns into a pumpkin

2:58:12at the end of 25 years.

2:58:15So how can we preserve the value of public investment

2:58:19whether it's federal or municipal dollars?

2:58:23The answer is that public money needs to be invested

2:58:26in publicly owned, cooperative, or not-for-profit housing.

2:58:32These housing providers provide

2:58:34preserve affordability and perpetuity.

2:58:38And as a citizen, I am sick and tired

2:58:41of subsidizing developer profits with my taxes

2:58:45while the housing crisis spirals

2:58:46further and further out of control.

2:58:49So how does this specifically apply

2:58:52to the three programs in staff's proposal?

2:58:55First, the vacant residential unit

2:58:57and vacant space conversion grant.

2:59:00Who are the public institutions

2:59:02who can benefit from this grant?

2:59:05The first thing that comes to mind for me

2:59:07is the old cooperators building and Conestoga College.

2:59:11Converting upper floors of a former office space

2:59:15into new college residences could be one great use

2:59:19of this fund with a public institution.

2:59:23The additional dwelling unit grant

2:59:25is targeted money from the feds, fine.

2:59:29Maybe it will incentivize people

2:59:30who are considering a renovation or granny flat

2:59:33to invest their own resources,

2:59:36perhaps not according to the previous delegate.

2:59:40For the new affordable residential unit grant,

2:59:43I would say absolutely not,

2:59:47unless the housing provider is a co-op, the county,

2:59:50or a not-for-profit such as Habitat for Humanity.

2:59:54The feds are not providing money for this initiative,

2:59:57so it would be coming out of citizen pockets.

3:00:01And I'd like to point out something

3:00:02in the financial implications of the report

3:00:04that I'd like you to keep in mind

3:00:06for the upcoming budget process.

3:00:08And staff, I quote, say,

3:00:10additional financial incentives

3:00:12for the development of affordable housing units

3:00:15can be expected to increase the cost of exemptions.

3:00:20Development charge exemptions are funded

3:00:23by property taxes and utility rates.

3:00:28I'll repeat that again.

3:00:29Development charge exemptions are funded

3:00:32by property taxes and utility rates.

3:00:37I have been protesting

3:00:38against the 25% development charge subsidy

3:00:41that Mike Harris forced Ontario citizens,

3:00:44forced us to cough up for decades.

3:00:47Doug Ford has now put that program on steroids.

3:00:50If a house or apartment is considered affordable

3:00:53according to provincial benchmarks,

3:00:55then we will be required

3:00:57to waive the development charge completely.

3:00:59So what does that mean in real money?

3:01:02Well, for a detached house,

3:01:04we will be handing over, based on RDCs,

3:01:08$85,000 in public money

3:01:11to cover the infrastructure costs for one detached home.

3:01:16For a two bedroom apartment,

3:01:17we will be handing over $50,000 per apartment

3:01:22to cover the infrastructure costs

3:01:23that will no longer be covered by development charges.

3:01:27I was here in this chamber when Gary Scanlon

3:01:30from Watson and Associates, who is now retired,

3:01:34told you that in his entire career,

3:01:37he had never seen a cut in lot levies

3:01:40or development charges translate

3:01:43into lower prices for home buyers.

3:01:46So exactly what is my money

3:01:50and other citizens subsidizing?

3:01:52And we're really paying for it now in more ways than one.

3:01:56The fact that our tax and utility dollars

3:01:59are being diverted to developer profits

3:02:01means that we are now being faced with deep cuts

3:02:04to community services

3:02:06in order to maintain a 4% budget increase.

3:02:09So that's where our money is really going

3:02:11and it's starting to have a real impact

3:02:13on the quality of life for wealth citizens.

3:02:17So if we're going to think about this

3:02:18in terms of fiduciary duty,

3:02:20what kind of value is being derived

3:02:23for this massive public investment?

3:02:26If we are already being forced to subsidize

3:02:28new affordable units,

3:02:30why on earth are we even considering additional subsidies

3:02:34in the face of slashing public projects

3:02:36and services and deferring infrastructure costs?

3:02:40So my bottom line is that public money,

3:02:43whether it's federal or municipal dollars,

3:02:46needs to be invested in public, cooperative,

3:02:50and nonprofit housing.

3:02:52Thank you.

3:02:54Thank you very much for your presentation.

3:02:56Is there a follow up question?

3:02:59Seeing none, thank you very much.

3:03:04And I think that was it, yes?

3:03:06Okay, thank you.

3:03:08So coming back to council now,

3:03:15is there someone that would at least be willing

3:03:17to put the recommendation on the floor for us,

3:03:21which is to have the housing affordable housing

3:03:24community improvement plan public meeting be received?

3:03:28So it's just a motion to receive.

3:03:31Guller and Gibson will do that for us.

3:03:34All right, again, just making sure

3:03:37we're trying to keep our eye on timing tonight

3:03:40for all of our agenda items.

3:03:42Let's start some questions.

3:03:44I'll start with Ororak and then Kate.

3:03:49Thank you, Mayor Guthrie, through you to staff.

3:03:51I'm just curious, with respect to the 25 years

3:03:56or the 15 years, depending on the program,

3:03:59how do we monitor that?

3:04:02How do we make sure those units are subject

3:04:05to a rent control?

3:04:06Because rent control has been eliminated

3:04:08over anything used after 2018.

3:04:13And how do we make sure it can't be a short-term rental?

3:04:25Through the mayor, those are some of the details

3:04:27that we are working through in terms of how do we ensure

3:04:31that any incentive we provide,

3:04:34be it development charge exemptions,

3:04:37parkland dedication exemptions,

3:04:39any funding that is provided

3:04:41through this proposed community improvement plan,

3:04:44that there is a way that we track that annually

3:04:47to ensure that the unit remains affordable

3:04:50over that 25 years.

3:04:52And that could be through a non-payable mortgage

3:04:55registered on title.

3:04:58So we take the total amount of incentive provided

3:05:01and we'd register a mortgage on title

3:05:03that's non-payable unless once that unit became sold

3:05:09or rented above market rate,

3:05:11then that's when we call that city funding back.

3:05:16Okay, so there is a mechanism.

3:05:20Correct, and that's something we're going to continue

3:05:23to work through over the coming month or two.

3:05:27And we'll have more details around that

3:05:29when we come back to council in late January.

3:05:34And through you, Mayor Guthrie, to Mr. Goodrum,

3:05:37does that, we'll be monitoring as well

3:05:40if those units can't be used as short-term rental,

3:05:42that it doesn't become an income stream for folks?

3:05:50Through the mayor, are you referring to the ADU units?

3:05:55Yeah.

3:05:57Yeah, okay, that's something we'll take back

3:05:58and work on and provide an answer in January.

3:06:05Okay, thank you.

3:06:05And Mayor Guthrie, just have a couple more.

3:06:08So the housing accelerator funds are federal dollars, right?

3:06:11And have those funds been received?

3:06:15And what happens if there's a cancellation to that,

3:06:19housing accelerator fund?

3:06:29I can try to answer the first part of this.

3:06:31I don't know what the future's going to hold, obviously,

3:06:34but we have received some allocations

3:06:37of that $21 million fund,

3:06:40and it does roll out over the next couple of years as well.

3:06:44In terms of what the future holds, I can't answer that.

3:06:54Through you, Mayor Guthrie, to counsel our work,

3:06:56I can confirm that we have received $5.3 million

3:07:00in the first installment,

3:07:01and the second installment is expected in March of 25.

3:07:07Okay, that's comforting.

3:07:08So through you, Mayor Guthrie,

3:07:09I'm just trying to prevent that somebody would be

3:07:11wanting to do this and start their plans,

3:07:14and then the subsidy vanishes.

3:07:21I'll just ask one last question,

3:07:22because I know my colleagues have questions as well.

3:07:25So through you, Mayor Guthrie,

3:07:26Ms. Watson raised the point that public dollars

3:07:30from the federal government should go to support

3:07:33nonprofit or public organizations,

3:07:35but are they precluded?

3:07:36So can a Habitat come and propose a project

3:07:42and access these funds or a housing co-op or a nonprofit?

3:07:45Can they access the same programs?

3:07:50Through the mayor, yes.

3:07:52This is not limited to for-profit developers.

3:07:56We're looking at building housing.

3:07:58Great, and sorry, Mayor Guthrie,

3:08:00just a last one through you.

3:08:01There's been some misinformation

3:08:02about the effectiveness of the Housing Accelerator Fund.

3:08:05So I'm just curious what staff's expectations are

3:08:08on the uptake and the speed

3:08:10at which we would see some units come online.

3:08:18Through the mayor to the counselor.

3:08:20So we're actually quite excited

3:08:22about the Housing Accelerator Fund,

3:08:24a third of the municipalities who applied to receive funding,

3:08:26and we were on that list to receive funding.

3:08:28So that's great news for Guelph.

3:08:29This is an opportunity that we did not have a year ago.

3:08:33So it's an opportunity and we think,

3:08:36certainly the CIP is a program that'll move very quickly.

3:08:40We've already brought the demonstration project forward

3:08:43to council for that RFP, so that'll be going out.

3:08:46And we do think the ADU program

3:08:48can have the quickest uptake on that.

3:08:51And that's why it's coming back

3:08:53as soon as we can at the end of January.

3:08:59Thank you, Kate and his next please.

3:09:00And then a goer.

3:09:03And then Ulta too.

3:09:04Sorry, Kate and I just saw Ulta and as well.

3:09:06So yeah, I got you, Phil.

3:09:10Through the mayor, I think that Ms. Watson

3:09:12and Ms. Dandy had some really good points

3:09:14about there not being anything in place

3:09:16for deeply affordable units.

3:09:19So we don't have anything specific to that.

3:09:21I know that we've got a cap on it

3:09:24at what Ms. Watson called the market affordable rate,

3:09:27which I thought was a fair comment.

3:09:30Is there a plan to put something in place

3:09:32so that we are encouraging people to build things

3:09:36that people who are on OW or ODSP can afford to be in?

3:09:49Through the mayor, that's something that we can look at,

3:09:51but I do want to remind council

3:09:53that we are coming back

3:09:54with the housing affordability strategy as well

3:09:56on December 10th, so that could be a discussion there.

3:09:59Right now we haven't looked at that aspect.

3:10:02We've been concentrating on what's before you this evening

3:10:06with respect to what those affordability rates are

3:10:08for rental and ownership.

3:10:11And we haven't looked at the deeply affordable component.

3:10:18Thank you.

3:10:19And through the mayor to staff,

3:10:22what would be the plan in terms of lengthening the 25 years?

3:10:26Is that something that is a standard?

3:10:30Can we make it larger?

3:10:31I know that we've talked about improprietuity before

3:10:33and we put up 99 years.

3:10:35What's stopping us from increasing that timeline?

3:10:43Through the mayor, we came up with the 25 years

3:10:46because it's linked to the DC and Parkland exemptions.

3:10:50So, and our reporting requirements to the province.

3:10:55So that's where we generated that 25 year number

3:10:58for the two programs.

3:11:00And then the 15 year was generated by, you know,

3:11:03discussions with the ADU developers

3:11:08and what would be reasonable to actually

3:11:09and send some of those ADU units.

3:11:14Thank you.

3:11:17Thank you, Councillor Goller than Alt.

3:11:20Thank you, through your worship to staff.

3:11:25Thank you very much for putting this together.

3:11:26I really appreciate it.

3:11:28And I'm looking forward to seeing it being implemented.

3:11:31I did have a question about the process

3:11:36that you've gone through in terms of engaging

3:11:38with stakeholders with the CAP as it is written.

3:11:44Do you have an idea of how many people,

3:11:48organizations would actually come to take advantage

3:11:51of these programs once it is available?

3:11:58So as I presented, we did do a reach out

3:12:01to people, local experts.

3:12:02So be that the home builders, the realtors association,

3:12:05the developers association.

3:12:06So we're comfortable with what's before you today

3:12:09that there will be an uptake

3:12:11and there will be housing developed.

3:12:15That's not to say it's written in stone.

3:12:17Obviously we're going to have to test that over time

3:12:19and make adjustments along the way.

3:12:23In terms of the numbers, I have had some good conversations

3:12:27with people that are looking at taking advantage

3:12:30of all three programs.

3:12:32So, you know, that's good news.

3:12:34And obviously we'll always monitor

3:12:37and look at continuous improvement.

3:12:40Perfect. Thank you very much for that.

3:12:42And with regards to the questions we're getting

3:12:45from the public tonight or from counselors,

3:12:48for example, one of the delegates asked

3:12:50for the ADU project stream,

3:12:53would you consider removing the minimum or the maximums?

3:12:56So will we see that be taken into account

3:13:01when this comes back to us in January?

3:13:03Yep, through the mayor, that's why we're here today.

3:13:06So we'll definitely take that back, discuss it,

3:13:08and then any changes to the program

3:13:11will definitely highlight for council

3:13:13when we're back in January so you can see those changes.

3:13:17Perfect, perfect.

3:13:18And I just wanted to clarify with the question

3:13:22of limiting this to nonprofit developers.

3:13:25If we were to do that, then if we were to say

3:13:28only nonprofit organizations could apply for this,

3:13:32what is your sense that that would have,

3:13:34in terms of an impact to the viability of this program?

3:13:40Through the mayor, I obviously that would limit

3:13:42the pool of applicants and the provision

3:13:45of affordable housing, which is the target here.

3:13:51Right now with those discussions I've been having,

3:13:53I've been having them with both for-profit

3:13:56and not for-profit developers.

3:13:58I have had some interest from downtown building owners

3:14:01as well, where we can convert some of those upper floors

3:14:04and get more people living downtown,

3:14:05which is part of our downtown revitalization efforts.

3:14:08So yeah, I wouldn't want to limit it,

3:14:11but those are some of the things we could look at

3:14:13as we roll the program out and see what the uptake is.

3:14:18Okay, okay.

3:14:19Thank you, thank you very much for that.

3:14:21And my last question through your worship,

3:14:25in terms of the size of the units,

3:14:27I see that we use a size that is used by Wellington County.

3:14:32And you did speak to the question of accessibility,

3:14:35but would you consider actually removing those restrictions

3:14:40so units could potentially be smaller

3:14:43and we could have more lower price points on some of them?

3:14:48Yes, through the mayor, that's definitely something

3:14:50we're going to take back and look at,

3:14:52recognizing that we have to comply with the building code

3:14:55and those other regulations as well.

3:14:57So, but that is something we've heard this evening

3:15:01and something we'll regroup on.

3:15:03Perfect, thank you very much.

3:15:04Thank you, worship.

3:15:05Thank you, Councillor Allt, please.

3:15:08Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:15:09A couple of questions, a couple were answered as well,

3:15:12but Councillor Gallard brought one up

3:15:14that I think is quite important.

3:15:17And so through you to whoever the staff is

3:15:20that can answer this,

3:15:21are there any legal impediments to considering

3:15:23incentivizing for nonprofits versus for profits?

3:15:28Are we obliged to consider both for-profit and non-profit,

3:15:34recognizing that there might be differences

3:15:37in the cost for one versus the other?

3:15:41Through the mayor, we're actually here tonight

3:15:46because a CIP, a community improvement plan

3:15:48is required if we're going to provide

3:15:50financial incentives to private sector,

3:15:54for-profit developers, businesses, property owners.

3:15:58So that's the whole point of being here tonight

3:16:01in terms of dealing with the not-for-profit side of things,

3:16:06there is more flexibility under the municipal act

3:16:09to do things that Guelph has done in the past

3:16:12with some of the other not-for-profit projects

3:16:15that have come forward.

3:16:18Thank you, and I think this is the last question,

3:16:20but it was raised by Mr. LeBae

3:16:24that they are using a federal definition of affordability.

3:16:29Is there someone that can explain to me

3:16:31what the actual cost difference is for a purchasable unit

3:16:37based on the federal versus the potential definitions

3:16:40of affordability?

3:16:51Through the mayor, yeah, we don't have the numbers

3:16:54before you tonight.

3:16:55Obviously, we can provide kind of that difference

3:17:00to council via subsequent email or other communications.

3:17:09Typically, but that federal definition is 30% of

3:17:13your gross household income goes to housing.

3:17:16If it's 30% or less, it's affordable.

3:17:18So if you were making your household income

3:17:21was $100,000 a year,

3:17:23as long as you're paying less than $30,000 a year,

3:17:26then that's an affordable unit.

3:17:27What we're looking at is the provincial definition

3:17:31that relates to the development charges

3:17:32where we're trying to hit those lower income thresholds.

3:17:37But we will provide a more fulsome response

3:17:39for you in the coming days.

3:17:41Yes, thank you very much.

3:17:42I think that's important because clearly

3:17:44if we're using one bruise, the other definition,

3:17:48there's a reason for that.

3:17:49Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:17:54Thank you.

3:17:55Is there anything further?

3:17:57Okay, so I guess it's just me then.

3:17:59So opportunity for some feedback, right?

3:18:01So forgive me if I missed this with captured

3:18:08in what's being presented.

3:18:10But do we have to do multiple different programs

3:18:16like you've outlined?

3:18:19Or can we just pool all the money together

3:18:23and have like a big bang for the buck project

3:18:26that just goes and just gets like 100 or 200 units.

3:18:31It's like, boom, done.

3:18:34I know you're trying to capture a different mix.

3:18:36So I appreciate that.

3:18:39But I'm just wondering is the criteria,

3:18:42especially because we're using a lot of the money

3:18:44from the Housing Accelerator Fund,

3:18:46does it require us to have to do different types of incentives

3:18:50or can we just take $6, $7 million and go,

3:18:55hey, RFP, Guelph, who wants $6, $7 million

3:18:59and then we can create criteria for that

3:19:02and we can have a massive low income,

3:19:06you know, amazingly affordable and accessible project

3:19:11that someone puts their hand up and goes, oh my gosh,

3:19:13I'll do that and I'll build X.

3:19:16And we meet the goals, but it's just done once

3:19:19and it's just done once with one big project

3:19:22and we're getting what we want.

3:19:30To the mayor, so with our half funding agreement,

3:19:33we had agreed with the federal government

3:19:36to both do a community improvement plan incentive,

3:19:39which is before each night,

3:19:41as well as the ADU incentive program,

3:19:43which is part of this.

3:19:45So we do have requirements with units

3:19:48tied to those individual programs.

3:19:50So no, we could not just put it into a different project

3:19:53as we would not be meeting our items that we had agreed to.

3:19:57Okay, that's why I asked the question.

3:19:59So that's okay, we can still big blue sky

3:20:02the other idea I had there for something else.

3:20:04But this is good too, don't get me wrong,

3:20:06I just wanted to make sure it wasn't,

3:20:08I just wanted to make sure it couldn't have been

3:20:10the possibility of an either or.

3:20:12It looks like it has to be all, so that's fine.

3:20:16And then the only other thing that I would just say is,

3:20:19I mean, from the end result,

3:20:23whether it's for profit or nonprofit charitable,

3:20:27that it gets this money,

3:20:28is that there will still be a 15 year or a 25 year unit,

3:20:33right?

3:20:34Okay, the only thing that I'll say

3:20:38is that there's probably by default,

3:20:44a little bit more of the possibility of a for profit

3:20:50at the end of the 15 year or at the end of the 25 year

3:20:54to flip it to market.

3:20:58Compared to a co-op, a nonprofit, et cetera,

3:21:02that if they get this fund at the end of the 15 year cycle

3:21:06or at the end of the 25 year cycle,

3:21:08it probably more than likely would remain in the stock

3:21:13of the affordable housing that that provider

3:21:16is already doing.

3:21:19So I would just say that it's good that we're trying to,

3:21:23cast the net wide, as I would say, to make these available.

3:21:29But I would sort of nudge to say

3:21:32at the end of the 15, 25 year timeframe,

3:21:35to know that the upfront investments or incentives

3:21:39went to someone that we probably know

3:21:41will keep them in perpetuity,

3:21:43because of the organization that they are affordable longer,

3:21:47that makes me feel a little bit better.

3:21:50I'll just kind of throw that on the table a little bit.

3:21:52So yeah, I mean, I know this is just for feedback.

3:21:58So I would just say those are the two things

3:22:01that I would throw out at you to consider.

3:22:06So thank you for listening to me.

3:22:09Oh, we have one more hand up, Councillor O'Rourke.

3:22:13Yeah, just a comment, Mayor Gastry, if I could.

3:22:17Yeah, for sure.

3:22:18So I think this CIP is great news.

3:22:21It's money we didn't have last year.

3:22:23It's incentives that aren't coming off the property tax base.

3:22:27Our goal is supply of housing and to do it quickly.

3:22:31Somebody who wants to put in an additional dwelling unit

3:22:34already doesn't have to pay development charges,

3:22:36because the province has required that.

3:22:40This is an additional subsidy,

3:22:42and it's stackable with other programs.

3:22:44So there's also good news broadly in the community

3:22:48with the University of Guelph announcing a project

3:22:50with 50 hundred beds.

3:22:51There's a big project that's coming up later tonight.

3:22:54And we know that in university cities across the country,

3:22:57when the universities are adding additional beds,

3:23:00when the housing supply is increasing,

3:23:02we know that rents are decreasing.

3:23:03So what is exciting to me is that there's a short time horizon

3:23:08to use these grants and that we should see supply moving.

3:23:11So Mr. Goodrum started his remarks by saying,

3:23:14we have currently, and we have had historically,

3:23:17very low rental availability rates,

3:23:19and this could move the needle.

3:23:20So I'm, I for one, I'm very excited.

3:23:25Thank you.

3:23:26I'm sorry, I just, I just forgot one question.

3:23:28My apologies.

3:23:30I did see in the report and even what made me bring up

3:23:33this last question is what Councillor O'Rourke just said

3:23:36using the fact that things are stackable.

3:23:38In other words, there's other incentives

3:23:39that could be stacked on top of this.

3:23:41Can I just get confirmation and maybe if it's a takeaway,

3:23:44that's fine, but part of what has been mentioned a lot

3:23:48over the years is the unit could be somewhat,

3:23:51you know, quote unquote affordable,

3:23:53but with you overhead costs per month, utility rates

3:23:56and such per month being expensive.

3:23:58Can someone access these funds to build,

3:24:02let's say a tiny home in ADU in their backyard?

3:24:05And could they also get like the Guelph-Greener homes

3:24:09to put the Guelph-Greener homes environmental initiatives

3:24:14into that build?

3:24:16So not only would they be able to have an affordable unit,

3:24:19but a way better unit from utility rates

3:24:22and overhead costs for that person

3:24:25that could be in there as well.

3:24:32Through you to Mayor Guthrie.

3:24:34The Guelph-Greener homes program is not applicable

3:24:37to new builds.

3:24:41I can get back to you on the details,

3:24:43but I believe the unit has to be five years old.

3:24:47Okay.

3:24:50Is there a possibility,

3:24:54is there a possibility of you just taking that away

3:24:55then as feedback to see if there's any potential changes

3:24:58to the Guelph-Greener homes program that could be stacked

3:25:02so that we're building,

3:25:03especially if they're standalone,

3:25:04like a tiny home in a backyard,

3:25:06that were actually stackable on some grants

3:25:09to make it completely self-sufficient,

3:25:12more green, better utility rates for the people as well.

3:25:16Can you just take it away at least?

3:25:19For sure.

3:25:20Okay.

3:25:21Thank you.

3:25:22Now I know Councillor Gullert wanted to have

3:25:24sort of a follow-up motion on this

3:25:26because of the topics that's been touched on,

3:25:29but I'd like to call the vote on this.

3:25:32Clerk, I'm so sorry.

3:25:32Has this been moved and seconded already?

3:25:34I think it was.

3:25:35Yeah, okay.

3:25:36So I'll just call the vote on receiving this information.

3:25:39Is anyone against that?

3:25:42Nope.

3:25:43Okay, so that passes.

3:25:44And then Councillor Gullert,

3:25:46you wanted to consider something else.

3:25:48Go ahead.

3:25:49Through your worship, if I could ask the clerks to put it.

3:25:52I have two additional motions to move forward.

3:25:56Now these programs could have been part of a CAP.

3:26:00However, adding them at this point

3:26:02would have delayed the implementation of the CAP.

3:26:06And in conversations with staff,

3:26:07they said that perhaps these could be considered

3:26:09as part of the affordable housing strategy.

3:26:12So I am moving forward two motions.

3:26:14One, that staff provide options to develop

3:26:17a deferral of property tax through incremental tax financing

3:26:20program for nonprofit developers

3:26:23who are building affordable home ownership projects

3:26:25to be recovered when the homes are resorted or rented

3:26:27as part of the affordable housing strategy.

3:26:30And the second one, that staff provide options

3:26:32to develop a program for nonprofit

3:26:34affordable housing developers that allows

3:26:36a no interest deferral of municipal application

3:26:40and permit fees prior to building permit,

3:26:43which would be payable in full prior to the issuance

3:26:46of the building permit as part

3:26:47of the affordable housing strategy.

3:26:49So these would be requesting staff to think about it.

3:26:53Oh.

3:26:54So sorry, just one sec.

3:26:55I need to know if there's a seconder.

3:26:59All right, Kate, go ahead.

3:27:00You have the floor.

3:27:02Thank you.

3:27:03And through your worship,

3:27:05these two motions are targeted at nonprofit developers.

3:27:11And they're looking to provide additional options.

3:27:14One of the delegates spoke to the benefits

3:27:18of the incremental tax financing programs

3:27:22for property tax deferrals.

3:27:25And the other one would be to defer the payments

3:27:29of the municipal applications

3:27:31until the project is ready for construction.

3:27:35So I don't want to spend a lot of time.

3:27:37I don't know if there's any questions

3:27:39from my fellow colleagues.

3:27:40And once again, these are not directing staff

3:27:43to make it happen, but rather to explore options

3:27:46so that when the affordable housing strategy

3:27:49comes back to us, we can explore

3:27:51what these might look like for Guelph.

3:27:55All right, questions to staff.

3:27:58Let's try to make it rapid fire if we can, please.

3:28:00Paulton and then Downer.

3:28:03Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:28:05I talked with Councillor Goller earlier this afternoon

3:28:07about this and I'm not opposed to the principles

3:28:11that he's presented, but some of the language

3:28:13I find incredibly challenging

3:28:16because it strikes me that in motion number one,

3:28:20where he essentially is directing staff

3:28:22to provide options, if we are not directing staff,

3:28:27which I know certainly should be doing at this point,

3:28:30we should be sending them back with something similar

3:28:32to consider the feasibility

3:28:35because the way that it's written,

3:28:37we will have something that comes back to us

3:28:39with various options.

3:28:41And I haven't had my questions answered

3:28:45on whether that is in fact feasible at this point.

3:28:48So consequently, if I have a seconder,

3:28:53I would move to remove the words options,

3:28:59the options I think it is,

3:29:00and consider the feasibility of.

3:29:07Looks like Ororak will second that.

3:29:10I'm gonna quickly call the vote everybody to move us along.

3:29:13Is there anyone against taking out the word options

3:29:17and putting in the word feasibility?

3:29:20No money, giddy up.

3:29:21Okay, that's great.

3:29:23Thank you, Councillor Allt.

3:29:24You still have the floor or can I continue on?

3:29:27Thank you.

3:29:27Number two, I was wondering if I could please hear from staff

3:29:31on the challenges, Mr. Crowder, perhaps,

3:29:34on the challenges of delaying development charges

3:29:38or permit costs and so on until such time

3:29:43as a project is clearly feasible,

3:29:47is clearly going in the ground.

3:29:48And I've got some concerns about missing those upfront costs

3:29:54and the city being left in a position

3:29:58where a great deal of time and money

3:30:00can be put into something

3:30:01and there will not be anything that we get out of it.

3:30:08Through you, Mayor Guthrie, to Councillor Allt,

3:30:10I will start and others can maybe join in.

3:30:13I think from a perspective of the ability

3:30:16to defer that tail building permit stage,

3:30:20we can put in a mechanism to allow that to happen.

3:30:24Our concern would be is if the project doesn't go forward.

3:30:29So currently as the way the motion is written

3:30:32upon building permit issuance, we would collect those fees.

3:30:36If there was never building permit issuance,

3:30:39then fees would therefore not be collected.

3:30:41And therefore staff time that has been put into the project,

3:30:46which could be hundreds of hours, would then not be funded

3:30:50and others can join in.

3:30:57Looks like you're a party of one.

3:31:00Councillor Allt, you still have the floor.

3:31:02Yep, thank you.

3:31:03I think at this point, unless there is an effective amendment

3:31:07to address some of the concerns of what Mr. Crowder presented,

3:31:11I cannot support number two.

3:31:13And I would ask that the motion be split

3:31:15so that I can support number one, reworded

3:31:18and not support number two.

3:31:21That's fine, I can do that.

3:31:23And look, I just wanted to say to everybody here,

3:31:25we have a lot more work ahead of us tonight

3:31:27and looking at the clock.

3:31:29I think what Councillor Allt did

3:31:33by changing it to the word feasibility

3:31:35is enough of a catch all that that's the direction.

3:31:38Like send this off to staff now

3:31:40and let's let them do the feasibility as it's been amended

3:31:44and come back with some more information.

3:31:45And really that's what I think the motion is asking for.

3:31:48So I really don't want us to do deep dives

3:31:51and get into the weeds here tonight on the ins and outs

3:31:54when really the motion on the floor

3:31:55is about just looking for feasibility,

3:31:57report to come back at another time.

3:31:59So I just wanted to see if there's anybody else

3:32:01with questions before I split it out.

3:32:03Point of order, Mayor Guthrie.

3:32:04I think we need feasibility in number two then

3:32:08the way that it's worded.

3:32:10I'm not certain I'd need to see it on screen again.

3:32:15I was under the impression you changed it.

3:32:18I thought on both, but if you want to change it on number two

3:32:21then that's fine as well.

3:32:23I'll go to the clerks just one second Councillor Allt

3:32:25just to confirm, okay?

3:32:30Yeah, the clerks were under the impression

3:32:31that it was changed for both and you're muted.

3:32:35That's exactly what I did.

3:32:37What a surprise to all of us.

3:32:38All right, perfect, perfect, perfect.

3:32:42All right, so are there any more questions

3:32:45or can I just call the vote on these two matters

3:32:49and I'll split them out?

3:32:50Okay, I'll call the vote by going one at a time.

3:32:53So can I please have the motions up on the screens

3:32:56to the clerks please?

3:33:02And I will be calling the vote as amended, okay?

3:33:10That staff provide feasibility to develop a deferral

3:33:13or property tax through incremental tax financing

3:33:16or TIF program for nonprofit developers

3:33:19who are building affordable home ownership projects

3:33:21and to be recovered when homes are resold or rented

3:33:23as part of the affordable housing strategy.

3:33:26All right, I'm gonna call the-

3:33:28Point of order, Mayor Guthrie.

3:33:30I think your language was supposed to be

3:33:32consider feasibility.

3:33:34Yes.

3:33:35Oh, okay, we'll pull it back up on the screen.

3:33:38Thank you.

3:33:40I got into reading mode.

3:33:42Can you pull it back up on the screen for us?

3:33:45Yeah.

3:33:51And the clerks are just reminding us

3:33:53that it is a requirement of emails to clerks

3:33:59for any member of council looking to try

3:34:02to make amendments or changes.

3:34:04I think we did capture it, but as of now,

3:34:07maybe we'll change that procedure next year.

3:34:10Here's hoping that we can trust our staff to do that,

3:34:15but right now we do need emails

3:34:16that have to fly into our clerk's department.

3:34:23So maybe you could just put it back up on the screen though,

3:34:26just to help with anyone trying to handle the wording.

3:34:41Point of order, it's consider the feasibility.

3:35:24Hello, Councillor Alts.

3:35:27We think we have what you're intending to move here,

3:35:30but if you can confirm for us-

3:35:32That's correct, I sent it to you.

3:35:33You should have the email now.

3:35:45Okay, we've got confirmation and a thumbs up.

3:35:48So we're good.

3:35:51I am going to call the vote on just number one as posted.

3:35:56Okay, is anyone against?

3:36:01No one, thank you.

3:36:02Let's pull up number two now, please.

3:36:06And I would imagine it has similar language

3:36:08as was originally intended by Councillor Ald.

3:36:13Councillor Ald, I'd love to just get a verbal

3:36:15or a thumbs up again, emoji.

3:36:16There we go, perfect.

3:36:22I needed that laugh, it's been a long day, it's good.

3:36:27Okay, I'm going to call the vote on this one.

3:36:32Is anyone against that one?

3:36:37Oh, okay, nobody, okay.

3:36:39That passes as well.

3:36:40Thank you, Councillor Goller, appreciate it.

3:36:42Some further incentives to be considered.

3:36:45So appreciate that, thank you very much.

3:36:50Okay, we are going to go to a very quick one.

3:36:56Very quick one here that we only have one delegation on

3:37:00and it's a decision report.

3:37:02I believe that we will be able to handle this very quickly

3:37:05and it is 601 Scottsdale Drive and then that way

3:37:08we can end our evening on the reformatory lands, okay?

3:37:12So 601 Scottsdale Drive, I'm going to ask our delegation.

3:37:17Is Dana Gilbert available standing by?

3:37:27Okay, Dana Gilbert is going to join us, I believe, by video.

3:37:35Can you see me?

3:37:37We can't see you, but we can hear you.

3:37:40I clicked, hold on, it says stop video as opposed to,

3:37:44hold on, let me just see why that's not working.

3:37:48Give me one second.

3:37:50No problem, again we can.

3:37:51Exactly why, I know exactly, I'm so sorry.

3:37:54I'm one of those people that closes the top of her camera

3:37:58because I'm a little bit.

3:37:59It's okay, we can see and hear you clearly now.

3:38:04Thank you very much.

3:38:05Thank you.

3:38:06And yes, so go right ahead,

3:38:08you're our only delegation on this matter.

3:38:11I'll turn it over to you.

3:38:13Thank you so much.

3:38:14Good evening, Mayor Guthrie and Councillors,

3:38:17I thank you very much for allowing me to speak tonight.

3:38:20As Mayor Guthrie already said, my name is Dana Gilbert.

3:38:23I am the Managing Director of Real Estate Development

3:38:25at Forum Asset Management.

3:38:26Forum Asset Management is one of the largest,

3:38:29soon to be the largest owner, operator, developer

3:38:33and investor in student housing across the country.

3:38:35And so I'm here to delegate on the item that is 7.1

3:38:41in reference to 601 Scottsdale.

3:38:45It's regarding the decisions in our Official Plan Amendment

3:38:48and Zoning Bylaw Amendment applications

3:38:50to permit phase two of a student residence

3:38:53at 601 Scottsdale.

3:38:55You've already got a letter from our legal counsel,

3:38:58Wood Bull, that's dated on November 7th regarding this matter.

3:39:01And so I won't repeat everything within it,

3:39:04but I would like to highlight a few things.

3:39:06Although we have always appreciated the effort

3:39:09that staff has gone with us to write this report,

3:39:11everything that's within this report on our applications.

3:39:14At this point, I am asking you to not make a decision

3:39:17on these applications,

3:39:19on the basis that the student residence is exempt

3:39:22from the Planning Act as per Bill 185.

3:39:25We want to continue to work with staff collaboratively

3:39:29to complete technical details,

3:39:31obviously at the building permit drawing stage.

3:39:33And we are working, which has been articulated to the city

3:39:36to submit that building permit in November.

3:39:40And so the intention of Bill 185,

3:39:42our site is university owned land.

3:39:45We have a long-term ground lease

3:39:46with the University of Guelph

3:39:48that requires us to build student residence only

3:39:52for exclusively for University of Guelph students

3:39:55on this site.

3:39:57This is an extremely important project for us.

3:40:01And we're very proud of phase one that's on site right now.

3:40:04Phase one was completed in 2021.

3:40:07It comprises of 177 student beds,

3:40:09which is fully occupied by University of Guelph students.

3:40:13Phase two will expand the city's student housing supply

3:40:17by approximately 600 beds.

3:40:20The whole site will house approximately 800 beds of students

3:40:23and will provide more amenities to the tune

3:40:25of almost 5,000 square meters just for phase two.

3:40:29Phase one and phase two have amenities

3:40:32that will be accessible by all students

3:40:35on this student housing residence.

3:40:39In planning for phase two,

3:40:40we had extensive consultation

3:40:42that started actually approximately three years ago.

3:40:45We had two pre-application consultation meetings.

3:40:48We also did a pre-application submission,

3:40:50which was a full application.

3:40:52We had voluntary neighborhood consultation

3:40:55in December of 2023.

3:40:57And we also had a public meeting

3:40:59that had strong public support

3:41:02for student residence being located here

3:41:05for building student housing to alleviate the pressure

3:41:08on the student's traditional housing market.

3:41:10And so we had letters of support talking about the fact

3:41:13that this is the right location to have student housing

3:41:16and it alleviates and gets rid of investors or others

3:41:21taking up single family homes or apartment buildings

3:41:24and having a place specifically designed for students.

3:41:29The applications were also circulated to the MTO

3:41:32and Hydra One as other governing approval bodies.

3:41:35We have been working diligently

3:41:36to address the MTO's comments

3:41:39about observing greater setbacks along Highway 6

3:41:42and Stone Road West.

3:41:43And we have come up with a great plan with them

3:41:45that involves some changes to the built form itself,

3:41:48including the increase and the slight increase in height.

3:41:51But overall, excuse me,

3:41:53overall the spirit of the planning comments

3:41:55have been captured.

3:41:56We've also incorporated changes

3:41:58to respond to Hydra One concerns

3:42:01with the hydro corridor that bisects the property.

3:42:04We are pleased to see that the peer review

3:42:06that was done by FOTAN

3:42:09acknowledged that some changes to the layout

3:42:11may be required to built form,

3:42:13including height.

3:42:14Unfortunately, we did not know

3:42:16that these peer reviews were being completed

3:42:18until it came out in the staff report.

3:42:20So we weren't able to contribute to it

3:42:22with the changes that we've made.

3:42:24Apologies, I just need a drink.

3:42:34I apologize.

3:42:40We'll stop the clock.

3:42:42Take your time.

3:42:43It's okay.

3:42:44I'm not gonna, yeah, turn your,

3:42:45turn your, turn your,

3:42:48turn your camera off.

3:42:49Take a breath.

3:42:51Take your time.

3:42:53Not gonna, not gonna pressure you on with that.

3:42:56It's all good.

3:42:59Yeah, take your time.

3:43:00Seriously, it's all good.

3:43:06We've all been there.

3:43:12I'm so sorry.

3:43:14It's okay.

3:43:15Did you still want a couple more seconds to-

3:43:17No, I'm honestly, I'm honestly okay.

3:43:20Sorry.

3:43:21This hotel room is wildly dry.

3:43:24All right, I thought, I thought maybe you swallowed a bee.

3:43:27I might, I don't know.

3:43:30Excuse me, I apologize.

3:43:32Okay, we'll start the clock back up.

3:43:34Clerk, do you know how much time?

3:43:35Do you know how much time?

3:43:36Yeah.

3:43:37I'll go to five seconds.

3:43:39Okay.

3:43:41You have about 45 seconds left, Dana.

3:43:42Thank you.

3:43:43So continuing with that,

3:43:45we would really like to get back on track

3:43:47with transparent communication with staff going forward.

3:43:51This is why the letter from Wimbled is suggesting

3:43:54that planning staff be directed to work with us

3:43:57to finalize the technical details

3:43:59of our building permit plans

3:44:00that are intended to come in actually

3:44:03in the next couple of weeks,

3:44:04which was articulated to planning staff

3:44:07and building staff earlier this summer.

3:44:10After we submitted our phase two applications,

3:44:12the planning act was amended to include an exemption

3:44:14for student housing in section 62.

3:44:18We've provided city planning staff and legal

3:44:21with our council's opinion

3:44:22that student residence is now exempt from the planning act.

3:44:26And so that these applications are no longer required

3:44:29nor a site plan.

3:44:31Staff haven't addressed this in this report,

3:44:34instead have provided a recommendation,

3:44:36which again, although we appreciate this effort

3:44:39and we want to continue to obviously

3:44:41provide student housing, since the planning act

3:44:43does not apply, we request that you do not make a decision

3:44:46on these applications tonight.

3:44:48Moving straight to building permit will allow us

3:44:50to deliver phase two, almost 600 beds

3:44:54for the 2027 academic school year.

3:44:57Otherwise there will be a delay of at least one year.

3:45:00It's very important when student housing is delivered,

3:45:02that is delivered on the academic school year.

3:45:06Again, we're not trying to avoid doing any planning.

3:45:08This project has gone through extensive consultation

3:45:11and we would really like to continue to work

3:45:13with staff on the technical details of our building permit.

3:45:16We understand that the buildings department

3:45:18has a process for buildings under 10 units

3:45:22with that what they would could apply

3:45:24to this now new exemption from the planning act itself.

3:45:28And we are proposing this to be extrapolated

3:45:29to be used here.

3:45:31And in conclusion, overall in light of these facts,

3:45:34we ask council to not make a decision

3:45:36on the applications on the basis that student residence

3:45:39is exempt from the planning act by way of bill 185,

3:45:42direct planning staff to continue to work with forum

3:45:45to finalize the building permit plans

3:45:47for the student residence in regards to any technical manners

3:45:50that are required as well as functional services.

3:45:53We would like to work with the city

3:45:54to deliver student residence to the university by 2027.

3:45:58And as I had mentioned,

3:45:59if we cannot continue to move quickly,

3:46:01which is the intention of bill 185 in these exemptions,

3:46:05this student housing may be delayed.

3:46:07And so however, we just wanna deliver this project

3:46:11in accordance with this.

3:46:16Hi Dana, it's Mayor Guthrie.

3:46:19We gave you the, sorry to cut you off there,

3:46:22but that is yet your full, a lot of time.

3:46:24And we did give you the extra time and you're muted.

3:46:28So I just wanna make sure that we unfortunately muted you there.

3:46:32But your time is up.

3:46:33So just gotta cut you off there, but thank you very much.

3:46:37Is there any questions at all for the delegate

3:46:41from my colleagues?

3:46:44Seeing, oh, okay, councillor Billings.

3:46:49So through you, Mr. Mayor, I just wanted to be clear.

3:46:53The exemption issue aside,

3:46:56would you then still want a deferral?

3:47:03Through you, Mr. Mayor.

3:47:05Yes, we would like these applications

3:47:09and a decision to not be made

3:47:10as these applications are exempt from the planning

3:47:13or a part of the planning act

3:47:14and you're exempt from the planning act.

3:47:16And the attention is to move directly to building permit

3:47:21to get more homes faster.

3:47:29Councillor Billings, is that okay?

3:47:32Okay, thank you.

3:47:33Okay, is there any other questions from my colleagues?

3:47:37Seeing none at this time.

3:47:38Thank you very much, Dana.

3:47:40We hope you catch a water there and your breath, okay?

3:47:44Thank you so much.

3:47:45I apologize for that.

3:47:45It's okay.

3:47:46It's all right, it's all good.

3:47:48Okay, so it is back to us then.

3:47:52And we've heard her from our delegation.

3:47:57We do have a recommendation from our staff

3:48:00on this application.

3:48:01Is there someone that wishes to move the application?

3:48:06Downer and Alts will do that.

3:48:08Thank you.

3:48:09And now questions.

3:48:10So I'll go to Downer and then Galler, okay?

3:48:14Through you, Mayor Guthrie, to staff.

3:48:16So I just want to confirm,

3:48:18these are not student residences as defined in,

3:48:22the student residences would be the ones

3:48:24that are being built at the university.

3:48:26This is definitely student housing,

3:48:28but student residences are a completely different definition.

3:48:33Through the mayor to Councillor Downer,

3:48:37there is a site-specific definition

3:48:39for these particular units

3:48:41that was actually approved through phase one.

3:48:43So the developer has requested that we put it forward

3:48:46through phase two as well.

3:48:48The same definition would apply.

3:48:51It is a residential suite.

3:48:55This is what the actual definition is.

3:48:59In terms of this developer,

3:49:01is it private for-profit developer versus,

3:49:05they are building on university lands,

3:49:06but they are a private developer

3:49:08versus a university campus

3:49:11where the university would be the builder.

3:49:15So that is the point that they're trying to claim,

3:49:17but they're the same as university building residences

3:49:21rather than a for-profit.

3:49:23The developer, just sort of mirroring what you said.

3:49:29So through the mayor to Councillor Downer,

3:49:32they believe they are exempt from Planning Act approvals

3:49:37because of bill 185 that was passed,

3:49:39I think it was back in June.

3:49:42Okay, thanks.

3:49:44Go ahead and alt please.

3:49:46Thank you for your worship.

3:49:49Through you too to staff.

3:49:51Under the new Provincial Regime for Development

3:49:55Approvals and Applications,

3:49:56if Council were to not make a decision,

3:49:59would then we be under danger

3:50:04of the development being exempt

3:50:06or from some of the development fees and charges?

3:50:09I believe that if we don't make a decision

3:50:11in a certain amount of time,

3:50:12would that apply in this case?

3:50:17Through the mayor to the Councillor,

3:50:18so as far as fee repayments

3:50:20that would not apply in this case.

3:50:23It could have some legal implications down the road

3:50:27and if they apply for a building permit, what we would do.

3:50:30And I just want to be very clear

3:50:32that we are supporting this development to go forward

3:50:35and incorporating the requests by the agencies

3:50:39that they had for this site.

3:50:40And we've also, in the site-specific zoning bylaw

3:50:44for this, we've increased the density,

3:50:47we've reduced the buffer strips.

3:50:49There's a lot of positives in this

3:50:52in order for it to go forward

3:50:54and we have put forward our recommendation

3:50:56which supports student housing,

3:50:57which is great for the community.

3:51:00Thank you, Worship.

3:51:01Thank you, staff.

3:51:03Thank you, all to the no-roar.

3:51:05Yeah, thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

3:51:06It's more common than anything,

3:51:08but thank you to staff and to Councillor Downer

3:51:12or for Councillor Downer's questions.

3:51:15I think it's important that Council regard this

3:51:19as a relationship between a lease-e and a lease-or.

3:51:23The university, they could have been our melt properties

3:51:26for that matter.

3:51:28They are not acting as essentially a provider

3:51:32solely of residences.

3:51:35In this case, the applicant to students,

3:51:39they are essentially building on university property

3:51:43in the same way they might build on any property in the city.

3:51:46And I don't find the argument that was presented to us

3:51:49to be particularly convincing.

3:51:53Thank you.

3:51:55And O'Rourke is next, please.

3:51:59Through you to planning staff,

3:52:00I just want to confirm because this is purpose-built rental,

3:52:03there'll be DC exemptions already accorded.

3:52:06Is that correct?

3:52:10Through the Mayor to Councillor O'Rourke,

3:52:14there was some information that we did get

3:52:16from our finance department with regards to DCs

3:52:19and community benefit charges and taxes

3:52:23at the front of the, I'm just trying to pull it up here.

3:52:30So I think the way the report is structured

3:52:32in the information we got at the time

3:52:35when dealing with our finance department

3:52:37was that they are technically would still be charged

3:52:41the DC rate and confirmation would have to occur

3:52:47at the time of actual building permit in terms of

3:52:50are these apartment units or residential suites?

3:52:53Because it could change at the time

3:52:55of a building permit submission.

3:52:57And I think the deciding factor is whether or not

3:53:00these units would have a kitchen

3:53:03or not an independent kitchen in each unit or not.

3:53:06Okay, thank you.

3:53:07So Mayor Guthrie, I'll just add,

3:53:10since some of these details are up in the air,

3:53:12I do think we should proceed

3:53:13with our regular planning application

3:53:15because the proponent is also seeking property tax exemptions

3:53:19based on being what they purport as a student residence.

3:53:23But then they don't have any of the same constraints

3:53:26that a university does and they don't have to pay heads

3:53:28and beds.

3:53:29And so that means a for-profit corporation

3:53:31that chooses to build units geared to students

3:53:35would have significant exemptions.

3:53:38And I think we need to respect our relationship

3:53:42with the university when they have units

3:53:45that are purpose-built, that fall under the umbrella

3:53:48and the guidance of the university

3:53:51or recognize that this is a private corporation

3:53:53that have chosen this built form.

3:53:59Thank you.

3:54:01With that, I'm gonna call the vote, okay?

3:54:04Is there anyone that is against?

3:54:09Okay, thank you.

3:54:10That is unanimous.

3:54:13And we're gonna now move on to our last item,

3:54:17which is the Reformatory Lands.

3:54:23I know that much.

3:54:25Just looking for the actual title.

3:54:28Ontario Reformatory Heritage Conservation District,

3:54:32Draft Plan and Guidelines.

3:54:35We have a presentation from some staff

3:54:40that's gonna set the stage for us here.

3:54:44And then we have, I'll do a three, four, five, six.

3:54:49We have about nine or 10 at least delegations after that.

3:54:55So I think what I'm gonna do

3:55:00is let's have our staff

3:55:05presentation and then I think it would be wise

3:55:09for us to take only a five minute break

3:55:11and then we will do all the delegations

3:55:12and stick to everything.

3:55:14We need to move around just a little bit, okay?

3:55:17Quick point of order, Mayor Guthrie.

3:55:19Is this a planning or is this a council decision?

3:55:25This is under the public meeting applications.

3:55:31So we would need-

3:55:32There's no decision to be made.

3:55:34It's a recommendation for receive.

3:55:38So would people have five minutes or 10 minutes

3:55:40and do we need to do the requisite call out to the public?

3:55:44No, it's the 10 minute rule.

3:55:46It's the first time.

3:55:47So it's exactly like the other ones.

3:55:50Thank you very much.

3:55:51Yep.

3:55:53All right, so that doesn't mean everyone has

3:55:57to take 10 minutes, wink, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

3:56:01But we also respect that people have obviously planned

3:56:05and we always respect that work

3:56:08that's gone into any delegation.

3:56:09So and everyone probably knows my favorite word is ditto,

3:56:14but we get it.

3:56:16Okay, staff presentation first

3:56:20and then we'll take a five minute break

3:56:23and then we'll figure it out from there.

3:56:25Over to you.

3:56:26Thank you very much.

3:56:29Good evening, Mayor Guthrie, members of council,

3:56:32senior staff and members of the public

3:56:34that have joined us for this public meeting

3:56:37to discuss the draft Ontario Reformatory Heritage

3:56:40Conservation District planning guidelines.

3:56:43I'm the senior heritage planner for the city of Guelph

3:56:46and also the project manager for the ORHCD designation

3:56:51project.

3:56:53In June, 2021, council directed staff

3:56:56to initiate a heritage conservation district study

3:56:59for the former Ontario Reformatory Lands

3:57:02and WSP Canada was retained as consultant

3:57:05for the heritage district process.

3:57:08On March 21st, 2023, city council approved

3:57:11the recommendations from the ORHCD study

3:57:14as well as the proposed ORHCD boundary

3:57:18and directed that the project move to phase two

3:57:21of the designation process and prepare a draft

3:57:25HCD planning guidelines for the lands

3:57:28within the ORHCD boundary.

3:57:31I'm very pleased to be joined by Heidi Schaup,

3:57:34cultural heritage team lead with WSP consultants.

3:57:38Heidi and I will be presenting on the current draft

3:57:41of the ORHCD planning guidelines.

3:57:44So I'll hand things over to Heidi.

3:57:51Thank you very much.

3:58:00Just like to say thank you for having us

3:58:02and just wanted to note that WSP has completed

3:58:05hundreds of heritage planning and environmental

3:58:07projects throughout Ontario and Canada

3:58:10and globally as well.

3:58:11Within Ontario we've completed several HCD studies

3:58:14and plans while I'm the WSP representative today,

3:58:18other team members that have contributed

3:58:21to the preparation of these planning guidelines

3:58:23include Alison Lumby who is the landscape lead,

3:58:26John Tasiopoulos, urban design lead, Jennifer Sisson,

3:58:30urban planner and landscape architect,

3:58:32Leanna Ogston, indigenous relations

3:58:34and public consultation lead,

3:58:36and Marisa Williams, the planning lead.

3:58:40Just to quickly give an outline of the presentation,

3:58:44so we're gonna start with the purpose

3:58:45of the Heritage Conservation District Plan

3:58:48and an outline for the meeting today.

3:58:51Then we're gonna discuss the ORHCD boundary

3:58:53and the current protections that are in place.

3:58:56Then we'll go through the structure

3:58:58of the Ontario Formity HCD planning guidelines

3:59:01and then touch on some future planning

3:59:03and heritage value considerations

3:59:06and finally we'll go to the consultation.

3:59:12So for the purpose of the HCD plan,

3:59:15so we have produced a draft HCD planning guidelines

3:59:18that if approved at a future meeting

3:59:21would be used to implement a potential HCD designation bylaw.

3:59:25The Ontario Reformatory HCD plan document

3:59:28includes policies and guidelines to manage change

3:59:31and conserve the distinct heritage character

3:59:33of the Ontario Reformatory HCD.

3:59:36The plan provides policy direction, strategies,

3:59:39design guidelines and conservation status standards

3:59:42that support and enhance the cultural heritage value

3:59:45or interest and unique character

3:59:47of the Ontario Reformatory HCD.

3:59:55Before council can pass a bylaw to designate an HCD area

4:00:00or to adopt an HCD plan,

4:00:02a statutory public meeting must be held

4:00:04to release the draft HCD plan

4:00:07and to give the opportunity for persons

4:00:10who may wish to raise objection

4:00:12or make oral representations or written submissions

4:00:15regarding the plan.

4:00:17So tonight, November 13th, 2024,

4:00:20this meeting of council functions as this statutory meeting

4:00:24required under section 41.1 of part five

4:00:28of the Ontario Heritage Act.

4:00:30Council is to hear public delegations

4:00:33on the draft HCD plan,

4:00:36ask questions for clarification and identify issues.

4:00:40The draft OR HCD planning guidelines are to be received

4:00:45and no decisions are to be made at this time.

4:00:49I would also add that following receipt,

4:00:51staff will consult with the public,

4:00:54First Nations, the Ontario Reformatory Community

4:00:57and Landowner Group and with Heritage Guelph.

4:01:06The OR HCD boundary, which you see on the slide

4:01:11in front of you was approved with the OR HCD study

4:01:15and it involves four property owners.

4:01:19That is the province of Ontario,

4:01:21owning 785 York Road, Brody Limited,

4:01:25owning 919 York Road, the city of Guelph,

4:01:29owning 80 Dunlop Drive, which does include

4:01:32what's known as the Hawar-Quarry area,

4:01:35and Fusion Homes that owns property west

4:01:38of the Irmaasa River up to,

4:01:41but not including the Guelph Junction Railway tracks.

4:01:49The current Reformatory Property,

4:01:51or what's often called the Reformatory Property,

4:01:54which is 785 York Road,

4:01:56it's currently designated under a Heritage Designation

4:02:00bylaw under part five of the Ontario Heritage Act,

4:02:04but it is important to understand

4:02:06that any heritage designation,

4:02:08whether under part four or part five,

4:02:11is not in full force and effect

4:02:13until the property that involves

4:02:15is no longer under provincial ownership.

4:02:23Individual property heritage designation bylaw 2021-20631

4:02:29for 785 York Road was approved by council in October of 2021,

4:02:33and the designation area includes,

4:02:36or the designation includes the area within 785 York Road

4:02:40that was identified by the province

4:02:42as a provincial heritage property

4:02:44of provincial significance in 2008.

4:02:48And that's shown on this map,

4:02:51785 York Road is the black dashed line,

4:02:56but the pink hatching overlay,

4:02:58which is a portion of that property,

4:03:00is the area of provincial significance.

4:03:06This, the HCD study produced this image,

4:03:11which shows the study area,

4:03:13and in this case, as the black dashed line.

4:03:16785 York Road, owned by the province,

4:03:19is within the solid red line.

4:03:21The pink dot hatching

4:03:22is the area of provincial significance,

4:03:25but also the image points out important built heritage resources

4:03:29that are outside of the area of provincial significance,

4:03:32and 785 York Road,

4:03:34but within the approved HCD boundary.

4:03:37Those are, it's difficult to see in this image possibly,

4:03:41but item or location number three is the North Gate.

4:03:46Number four is the Matthews Farmhouse.

4:03:49Number 12 is the Ontario Reformatory

4:03:52Wood and Tressel Railway Bridge.

4:03:5413 is the Reformatory Quarry area,

4:03:57and lastly, 14 is McQuillan's Boestring Bridge.

4:04:08Thank you.

4:04:09So when preparing the Ontario Reformatory HCD plan

4:04:12and guidelines, we did structure it

4:04:15in eight distinct sections.

4:04:17Section one provides an introduction

4:04:19and high level background on the phase one

4:04:22of the program, which is the ORHCD study,

4:04:25and gives an overview of the objectives for phase two,

4:04:28which is the HCD planning guidelines.

4:04:30Section two provides a summary of the study again

4:04:33and the plan process,

4:04:34and including a summary of the community engagement

4:04:37conducted to date, the legislative and policy framework,

4:04:40and an overview of the applicable policy

4:04:42and supporting guidelines

4:04:43as they relate to heritage conservation.

4:04:46Section three includes a statement

4:04:47of cultural heritage value or interest for the ORHCD,

4:04:51as it was presented in the study,

4:04:53and the character areas were described.

4:04:55Section four includes a statement

4:04:57of objectives and guiding principles.

4:05:01Section five includes recommended policies

4:05:04to meet the objectives and guiding principles.

4:05:07Section six is an overview of design guidelines

4:05:09for managing change with the ORHCD,

4:05:12and section seven includes planning

4:05:14and implementation measures

4:05:16to manage the cultural heritage landscapes

4:05:18and built heritage resources within the ORHCD.

4:05:22And finally, section eight includes recommendations

4:05:25to provide information on amendments

4:05:26to the official plan and comprehensive zoning bylaw

4:05:29to further support the objectives of the HCD plan,

4:05:32as well as any further reports that may be needed

4:05:35in the future, including periodic review.

4:05:41So just to touch on future planning

4:05:43versus heritage planning,

4:05:44so again, the goal of the HCD plan and guidelines,

4:05:49it describes the heritage value of the ORHCD,

4:05:53it identifies the physical heritage attributes

4:05:55that express that value.

4:05:57It provides targeted policies

4:05:59and to ensure that those physical attributes are maintained,

4:06:02and the HCD study and plan does not,

4:06:06sorry, the HCD plan does not make any recommendations

4:06:10regarding to specific development.

4:06:12So again, just wanting to stress

4:06:13that this is a guidance document,

4:06:15no specific development applications

4:06:17are addressed within the plan.

4:06:19The HCD plan and guidelines

4:06:21conserves the heritage value of the ORHCD,

4:06:23and that is the purpose of the document.

4:06:30The Guelph Innovation District Secondary Plan,

4:06:33that sets out official plan policies for the GID.

4:06:37It establishes a detailed planning framework,

4:06:42consisting of a vision, principles, and objectives,

4:06:45and policies and schedules to guide

4:06:48and regulate future development of the GID planning area.

4:06:52It's the GID that guides future use.

4:06:57Now, I just wanted to point out,

4:06:59in the title of this slide,

4:07:00and you saw it previously,

4:07:02that I want to point out that future planning

4:07:04is not meant to be versus,

4:07:06or in opposition to cultural heritage value.

4:07:10The ORHCD plan and the Guelph Innovation District Secondary

4:07:16Plan and the related block planning process

4:07:18are being designed to avoid having to choose

4:07:22one over the other in such a way

4:07:23that conserves the cultural heritage value

4:07:26of the Ontario Reformatory Lands.

4:07:33Section 11.2.6.3.1 of the GID secondary plan

4:07:39has already determined land use designations

4:07:43within the ORHCD boundary.

4:07:46These are shown in Schedule B on the left in this slide.

4:07:50Through the block plan process

4:07:52and the development proposals process,

4:07:54the mix of uses, zoning categories,

4:07:57and appropriate regulations will be established

4:08:00to permit and control uses within block plan area four,

4:08:05which is shown in purple on the right part of the slide,

4:08:09and which also includes the area designated

4:08:15for adaptive reuse.

4:08:18The purpose of a block plan is to establish

4:08:20an appropriate physical form of proposed development

4:08:23for the block plan area

4:08:24that demonstrates how the official plan policies

4:08:27for the GID secondary plan will be addressed.

4:08:31According to the secondary plan,

4:08:34the adaptive reuse designation,

4:08:37and that's the area in blue on Schedule B on the left,

4:08:42that the adaptive reuse designation

4:08:44includes provincially significant

4:08:46cultural heritage resources,

4:08:48where the conservation, rehabilitation, restoration,

4:08:52maintenance, and reuse of built heritage resources

4:08:56and cultural heritage landscapes

4:08:58will serve as the focal point of new development.

4:09:02The adaptive reuse designation permits a mix of uses,

4:09:05including institutional, educational,

4:09:08commercial, office, light industrial,

4:09:12and open space and park in a form

4:09:14that respects the existing built heritage form,

4:09:17cultural heritage landscape features,

4:09:20as well as the relationships

4:09:21between cultural heritage resources

4:09:23considered for adaptive reuse and redevelopment.

4:09:32Figure nine on page 38 of the draft

4:09:36Ontario Reformatory HCD plan identifies in yellow

4:09:41the core of the, what we're calling the core

4:09:44of the OR cultural heritage landscape.

4:09:47This includes the tree line drive from York Road entrance

4:09:51past the superintendent's residence

4:09:53to the Reformatory Administration Building

4:09:56and detention complex.

4:09:58New development and significant landscape alterations

4:10:02are not proposed in the OR CHL core.

4:10:07The OR HCD plan is recommending that residential use

4:10:11be added to the adaptive reuse area

4:10:14to introduce an option for intensification

4:10:17where deemed appropriate by the city.

4:10:24The green area is a portion of the North field

4:10:27and is recommended to have a four story building height limit

4:10:32or a low density character,

4:10:34which is subject to future development applications

4:10:37and public processes.

4:10:39We are not recommending any zoning changes

4:10:42with this heritage district planning guidelines.

4:10:46It's important to know that any future owner,

4:10:49and that is not the province of Ontario

4:10:51or the federal government,

4:10:54it's important to know that any future owner

4:10:56of land within block plan area four

4:10:58will be required to undergo the block plan process

4:11:01followed by a necessary official plan

4:11:03and zoning by law,

4:11:06or any amendments which are necessary

4:11:08to the official plan or zoning by law

4:11:10as part of the development application process.

4:11:14City policies require development applications

4:11:17to achieve the approval of environmental impact studies

4:11:21as well as cultural heritage resource impact assessments

4:11:25and conservation plans,

4:11:27both of which would include tree preservation plans.

4:11:37Following the statutory public meeting tonight,

4:11:40comments and feedback will be considered

4:11:42and may influence revisions to the plan's content

4:11:45before the final ORHCD plan is brought back to council

4:11:50for approval with a proposed bylaw

4:11:52to designate the ORHCD area

4:11:55and a related bylaw to adopt

4:11:58the accompanying ORHCD planning guidelines.

4:12:01During the month of December, 2024,

4:12:04Heritage Planning will offer consultation meetings

4:12:07regarding the draft ORHCD plan

4:12:10with First Nations, the community,

4:12:12and landowner group, and the Heritage Guelph Committee.

4:12:20And this concludes the presentation by staff

4:12:22and our consultant,

4:12:24and we would be happy to answer any questions

4:12:26that you may have.

4:12:30Thank you.

4:12:31As is typical, we'll just jump to the delegations

4:12:34after our five minute break,

4:12:35and then once the delegations are done,

4:12:38we can then have full some questions back to our staff.

4:12:41Thank you for the presentation.

4:12:43That's great.

4:12:44As I did say, I will take just literally a five minute break.

4:12:49Everyone will just run,

4:12:50could get some blood moving in this in a little bit.

4:12:53So let's come back here at 9.50.

4:12:55Five minute break, come back here at 9.50.

4:12:58And our first person will be Susan Ratcliffe.

4:13:02I see you Susan, you're up first, okay?

4:13:04Thank you.

4:19:58All right, this is your 30 second warning.

4:20:36If I could just have my colleagues online

4:20:38turn their cameras on,

4:20:40just so we can see for quorum purposes, that'd be great.

4:20:43Thank you.

4:20:44Leigh-Anne's like, hey.

4:20:47One, two, three, four, five.

4:20:49We're good.

4:20:51All right.

4:20:52Well, it looks like we, by default,

4:20:54no, we're gonna go over our allotted time.

4:20:57So the clerks have prepared a motion to jump up on the screen.

4:21:00Let's just get this out of the way.

4:21:03Yes or no, but it's being moved by Councillor Goller

4:21:06to extend past 11 and seconded by Councillor Richardson.

4:21:12And I only put that up there just because I'm doing math.

4:21:15If you look at the amount of delegations we have,

4:21:17and if every delegation takes 10 minutes,

4:21:19we're gonna go past there

4:21:20before we even start getting into this item.

4:21:22So I'm gonna call the vote, is anyone against?

4:21:27No one that passes, thank you.

4:21:30All right.

4:21:32Susan Ratcliffe, thank you for coming.

4:21:35And I'll turn it over to you.

4:21:37Go right ahead.

4:21:38Five minutes, so it'll be,

4:21:41I'll talk slowly to make it 10, okay?

4:21:44Is that all right?

4:21:45I just wanna say to Mayor Guthrie that I have pneumonia.

4:21:50I'm here because I wanna be here if I cough.

4:21:53Excuse me and do that, okay?

4:21:56Got everything here ready.

4:21:58So Mayor Guthrie and Councillors

4:22:01and all who care about the OR lands.

4:22:04Over the past decade, citizens of Guelph

4:22:08have spoken clearly and often about their vision

4:22:12for the future of the OR lands.

4:22:15In April 2009, 3,000 visitors lined up

4:22:19to tour the interior during Doors Open Guelph.

4:22:24On June 14th, 2021, 31 delegations

4:22:28and more than 200 letters to council

4:22:31asked for the Part Five designation

4:22:34as a protection for the lands.

4:22:37Council supported them with a unanimous vote

4:22:40in favor of the HCD study.

4:22:43On September 29th, 2002,

4:22:46more than 125 citizens attended public meeting number one

4:22:51and many more told their stories in a half your say.

4:22:56On January 20th, 2024,

4:22:58a petition was presented in parliament

4:23:01with 3,191 citizen signatures

4:23:06in favor of creating an urban park of the OR lands.

4:23:11In the past two years, 46 Guelph businesses

4:23:15and associations, including several indigenous groups

4:23:19and nations, pledged support of the urban park

4:23:22on the OR lands.

4:23:24Over the past 11 years,

4:23:27the York lands Green Hub has advocated for

4:23:30and educated about the OR lands

4:23:33as an environmental education center.

4:23:36And York lands members have of their own free will

4:23:40cleaned the trash for all those years

4:23:44and that's dedication.

4:23:46Even the mayor spoke strongly,

4:23:49saying on March 21st, 2023,

4:23:52it's a treasure in Guelph.

4:23:54It's something I wish I'd known more about much earlier.

4:23:58It's pretty fantastic.

4:24:01However, in this Ontario Reformatory HCD plan,

4:24:06those citizen voices have been heard

4:24:10but only in the statements of cultural value section.

4:24:14On page 30, public engagement with individuals and groups

4:24:19within Guelph and the broader region

4:24:21demonstrate a deep connection

4:24:23with the proposed Ontario Reformatory HCD

4:24:28and see it as a natural sanctuary.

4:24:31That's a quotation.

4:24:33On page 33, another quotation,

4:24:36the main objective of the Ontario Reformatory HCD plan

4:24:41is the conservation, management and long-term protection

4:24:46of the cultural heritage value

4:24:48and heritage attributes of the OR HCD.

4:24:53The major features form a cohesive landscape.

4:24:59The problem is that the policy statements,

4:25:03the design guidelines and the planning

4:25:06and implementation sections of this plan

4:25:09contradict that citizen vision.

4:25:13In these sections,

4:25:14instead of a cohesive heritage conservation district,

4:25:18we get statements about new development,

4:25:21possible demolitions,

4:25:23alterations to natural areas

4:25:26and use of the land for residential and commercial purposes.

4:25:31And the language used is full of weasel words

4:25:34and Nambi-Pambi verbs coached in strangely vague terms

4:25:39like we're possible, we're feasible,

4:25:42we're avoidance is not feasible.

4:25:45It is preferred that and development

4:25:48will seek to avoid all kinds of things.

4:25:52And three of the six character areas

4:25:55are allowed to be redeveloped.

4:25:58Statements that are totally contradictory

4:26:01to the assertions of protection

4:26:03of the unique and distinguishing patterns

4:26:06of the land and features of the built heritage.

4:26:11The citizen voices and the strong protective language

4:26:15in the designations have been totally ignored

4:26:19by promoting a different version of the OR lands.

4:26:23A vision of apartment buildings,

4:26:25commercial plazas, parking lots,

4:26:28altered landscapes and only two tiny yellow parks.

4:26:34Citizens of Guelph have spoken loudly

4:26:37and clearly over the years, we don't want this vision.

4:26:41HCD designation would provide huge benefits to the city.

4:26:46In preserving the landscape and buildings as they are,

4:26:50the OR would make a spectacular public heritage landscape

4:26:55for Guelph's growing population.

4:26:58The prison buildings would be a compelling draw

4:27:01for tourism, the extensive trail system

4:27:05would draw hikers, bikers and birders,

4:27:08the quarry would draw crowds for concerts

4:27:12and the ponds would be urban sanctuaries

4:27:15for kayakers and fishers.

4:27:19I ask that you review and change the last 40 pages

4:27:24of this plan to create an heritage conservation district

4:27:29that would truly be a place where the citizens

4:27:32and visitors could, as the new tourism image says,

4:27:38as visitors and citizens could gather here

4:27:42in our unique federal urban park

4:27:45in a heritage conservation district.

4:27:48Thank you.

4:27:50Thank you, Susan.

4:27:52No coughing, no nothing, you've got it all the way through.

4:27:54I'm going home to collapse.

4:27:58Is there any questions for this delegate?

4:28:01Seeing none and we hope you feel better, okay?

4:28:03Thank you.

4:28:04All right.

4:28:05Feel better now I'm done.

4:28:06Yeah, we hear you, we hear you.

4:28:10Nora Schoenler, Nora you're here and is Lynn Grist here?

4:28:15I gotta put my glasses on.

4:28:17Lynn, are you here?

4:28:18Oh, yeah, I do see you behind there, perfect.

4:28:21You're in the wings after Nora, okay?

4:28:27Welcome.

4:28:28Good evening, Mr. Mayor.

4:28:29Obviously not Nora.

4:28:31She sends,

4:28:33Noa sends her regrets that she needed to leave earlier

4:28:36this evening, asked if I would do her presentation

4:28:39for her if that's permissible.

4:28:41I absolutely will allow that.

4:28:43Just for the record, we just have to have your full name.

4:28:46That's all, right?

4:28:47My name is Connie Shaw.

4:28:48Thank you Connie.

4:28:49Yeah, everybody all means go ahead, okay?

4:28:51Thank you and for the information of council,

4:28:53I submitted documents for this meeting

4:28:57and open their bite for any questions thereafter.

4:29:00Okay, Nora says good evening to all.

4:29:03She has read the draft heritage conservation plan

4:29:06for the OR and believes that it is throwing something

4:29:10very precious away.

4:29:13She strongly supports Erin Catton's motions

4:29:16to support urban park wealth.

4:29:19Many of you know that she is a long time advocate

4:29:22for the OR heritage district for at least 15 years now.

4:29:27And won't take time to go over its many unique attributes

4:29:30since others will also address them.

4:29:34But wealth citizens need you to support and protect

4:29:38this place as a national urban park

4:29:41since their requirements fit totally for its conservation

4:29:45and heritage education as a natural green quarter.

4:29:50It is also critical for our environmental resilience

4:29:53to climate, chaotic events and support for biodiversity.

4:30:00Nora returned yesterday from a family event

4:30:04in Glasgow, Scotland and wants to share with you

4:30:07her thoughts on a similar site in that really old city

4:30:11of stone buildings and cobbled streets.

4:30:16We noted at their tour office that they had

4:30:19an urban country park which is 15 minutes

4:30:22by public transit from the city center

4:30:25right to the entrance of the park.

4:30:28Pollock Park is a little over 300 acres left to the city

4:30:33many years ago by the Maxwell family

4:30:36and includes a small river, woodland trails,

4:30:39stone walls and household buildings and gardens.

4:30:44She spent four hours there on a cool cloudy Thursday

4:30:48walking and enjoying the late autumn trees,

4:30:51trails and woodland walks, bridges and animal life.

4:30:56Interpretive signs shared past and current details

4:30:59of the site.

4:31:01It is clearly a tourist magnet with a cafe and washrooms

4:31:06and a building that houses a collection of art.

4:31:10While there, she saw many others enjoying it.

4:31:14People with walkers, mums and strollers,

4:31:17daycare children, outings, picnicers

4:31:20and students orienteering.

4:31:23Also seniors enjoying the calm and the beauty

4:31:27just as many have been doing at the Ontario Reformatory

4:31:31over the past many years.

4:31:35There is a rich conservation program of education

4:31:39that encourages people from all over the world.

4:31:44This site contributes to the health and prosperity

4:31:47of the city in many ways.

4:31:50They grow food in the greenhouse and outdoors

4:31:53which produce that is harvested for food banks

4:31:58and local charities.

4:32:00There is a forest ranger on the site daily

4:32:03and other employees.

4:32:05The train and bus stop are two minutes away

4:32:08and there is a small EV shuttle bus

4:32:11from the entrance to the buildings if needed.

4:32:15It is all accessible and free to the public

4:32:19unless you wish to bring car and use a parking place.

4:32:23Most people walk there and arrived by public transit.

4:32:28This site contributes to the health and prosperity

4:32:31of Glasgow in a unique way.

4:32:35The parallels to our growth, opportunity

4:32:39to conserve the OR lands and its built features

4:32:43for future generations is clear.

4:32:47I strongly recommend that you as leaders in our community

4:32:51take note of the importance of this site

4:32:54for the future generations as well as

4:32:57as a record of the past.

4:33:00I appeal to you to respect our heritage

4:33:03which includes the deep indigenous history here.

4:33:07The OR native sons program had a Canada wide influence

4:33:12on many people inside and outside

4:33:16the reform institutions of the last century.

4:33:20Please note the letter to staffer Krista Wolke

4:33:24from the Ministry of Infrastructure Ontario in 2021,

4:33:30supporting the historical importance of this landmark

4:33:33heritage site and stressing that protecting it as such

4:33:39would be the highest and best use

4:33:41of this unique public place.

4:33:45This draft must be sent back to city staff

4:33:48who have worked tirelessly in the past

4:33:51on a prior draft plan that could be used to fit

4:33:54with national urban park objectives.

4:33:58And she says thank you for the commitment

4:34:00to the betterment of our city.

4:34:04And thank you very much.

4:34:06And you can let her know that you did a great job