Staff consider the feasibility to develop a program for non-profit affordable housing developers that allows a no interest deferral of municipal application…

2:13:53and bachelor units.

2:13:54Incentivizing this type of housing development

2:13:57will open up more larger family homes

2:13:59when people are looking to downsize.

2:14:01Nonetheless, we aren't restricting our programs

2:14:05to singles and bachelor's.

2:14:08So it is open to all sizes of units.

2:14:12In addition, Guelph has a rental vacancy rate of just 1.5%,

2:14:16which is below what they term the healthy rate

2:14:20of 3% or more.

2:14:28Through the More Homes Built Faster Act, 2022,

2:14:31the province introduced exemptions and discounts

2:14:34from municipal development-related charges,

2:14:36which include DC development charge exemptions,

2:14:40parkland dedication exemptions,

2:14:42community benefit charge exemptions

2:14:45for affordable residential units.

2:14:48These exemptions came into effect on June the 1st,

2:14:51and they can range anywhere between $30,000 and $50,000

2:14:54per unit.

2:14:56In the table before you now shows you

2:14:58what the affordable rents are.

2:15:00So they have to be at this rate or below

2:15:02for each of those types of units and rental,

2:15:05and then a home ownership rate at $398,000 or below.

2:15:11And that's as per the provincial bulletin.

2:15:14So in order to obtain these exemptions,

2:15:19in addition to renting or selling below that number,

2:15:21that figure shown in the table,

2:15:23the units must remain affordable

2:15:25for a minimum of 25 years as well.

2:15:28So keep in mind with our community improvement plan

2:15:32and programs presented to you tonight,

2:15:34we're proposing further incentives above and beyond

2:15:37what's provided with those development rate

2:15:40charge exemptions, and if you're in the downtown,

2:15:43parking's no longer required as well.

2:15:47You'll notice in the community improvement plan

2:15:49that we have minimum size for units.

2:15:51So we're proposing these minimum sizes

2:15:54following the county's lead when they issue their RFPs

2:15:56for affordable units.

2:15:59The building code does have lesser sizes for units,

2:16:03however smaller sizes do limit the accessibility of units.

2:16:07So that's why we've presented minimum floor areas.

2:16:15So our first program that I'll share with you tonight

2:16:18is the vacant residential unit

2:16:20and vacant space conversion grant.

2:16:23So what we're proposing here is $100,000 grant

2:16:27per affordable unit with an additional $20,000

2:16:32per affordable unit for accessibility features

2:16:36that are beyond what's required

2:16:37in the Ontario Building Code.

2:16:39And this program is targeted towards underutilized space,

2:16:45uninhabitable residential units,

2:16:47or the conversion of vacant space to residential.

2:16:53So if you think about, you know,

2:16:55we're trying to unlock units on those second

2:16:57and third stories in the downtown.

2:17:01And this program will be utilizing $3.2 million

2:17:04from the half, the Housing Accelerator Fund.

2:17:08We came to this number by engaging with other municipalities

2:17:12and our local industry professionals.

2:17:15So in addition to these exemptions from the province,

2:17:18this number made sense,

2:17:21and these prices will hold firm for 25 years.

2:17:31So our next program, the second program

2:17:33is the new affordable housing grant,

2:17:35which we're looking at funding options,

2:17:37but we're going to utilize half in the short term.

2:17:40The challenge with the half timelines

2:17:42is that it's pretty tough to bring a new building

2:17:46to construction and finish within two years.

2:17:50So this program is both for purpose built rental

2:17:52and ownership, the program and sense people

2:17:55to include some affordable units within their development.

2:17:59So it's not about building, you know,

2:18:01a 60 unit affordable housing development.

2:18:04It's building a 60 unit development

2:18:07where perhaps 10 of those units

2:18:10meet the affordability thresholds.

2:18:12Having a mix of housing types and income levels

2:18:14within a development is desired.

2:18:17So we arrived at the $25,000 per unit grant,

2:18:21knowing that a traditional tax increment financing grant

2:18:24would generate a tax grant of $2,500 per year

2:18:28for an affordable housing unit

2:18:31that meets the city, the counties,

2:18:33and provincial definition of affordability.

2:18:36So that grant would be over 10 years

2:18:37after the unit was built and reassessed

2:18:39by the Municipal Property Assessment Corporation.

2:18:43After listening to their stakeholders

2:18:45that I explained before,

2:18:47I was felt that instead of providing that $25,000

2:18:50over 10 years on the back end of development,

2:18:53that an upfront grant of $25,000 would be more beneficial

2:18:57and that could be combined

2:18:58with the other incentives we're offering.

2:19:01Again, the municipal charge exemptions, no parking downtown,

2:19:05and combining it with other incentives

2:19:08that other levels of government

2:19:09and organizations are providing.

2:19:16Actually, I should note that the development charge exemptions,

2:19:19parkland, community benefits,

2:19:21that's $40,000 to $60,000 per unit.

2:19:23So you'd be adding another $25,000 grant upfront.

2:19:27So that brings us up a little higher

2:19:30and then you combine that with other programs

2:19:32that the county offers, CMHC,

2:19:35and it's a pretty strong incentive.

2:19:40Then our final program this evening

2:19:41that I'll talk about is the program

2:19:45for additional dwelling units or ADUs, as they're called.

2:19:51So within this program, we have two streams,

2:19:53one for the homeowner and one for businesses developers.

2:19:58Only the business or developer stream needs to be authorized

2:20:00through a community improvement plan,

2:20:02but we're presenting both to you this evening.

2:20:05So both of these streams are going to be funded through half

2:20:09and ADUs are dwelling units that are self-contained

2:20:12and they're subordinate to and either found

2:20:15within the same building or in the same lot

2:20:17as a primary dwelling unit.

2:20:20ADUs continue to be a real strong form

2:20:22of new residential building activity here in Guelph,

2:20:25and that's for a variety of factors.

2:20:29The lower cost to construct relative

2:20:31to other development types.

2:20:33So the homeowner stream is targeted to homeowners

2:20:36that will continue to live on the property

2:20:39while providing a new ADU.

2:20:42The stream provides proponents

2:20:43with a $20,000 construction grant for the unit itself.

2:20:47There's an additional $20,000 if your infrastructure,

2:20:51like your sanitary and water service laterals

2:20:55need upgrading for increased loads.

2:20:57There's an additional $20,000

2:20:58that that service needs to be upgraded,

2:21:02as well as an additional grant of $10,000

2:21:05if you provide accessibility features above and beyond

2:21:10what the building code requires.

2:21:12And these accessibility features were drafted

2:21:14with input and feedback

2:21:15from the accessibility advisory committee.

2:21:22On the developer builder stream,

2:21:24so it's targeted at larger projects

2:21:27that involve a minimum of three to a maximum of six ADUs

2:21:31with a $10,000 construction grant per unit.

2:21:35A one-time grant of $20,000

2:21:37for those infrastructure upgrades if required,

2:21:39which they probably would

2:21:40when we were talking about three to six units.

2:21:45And obviously similarly, the accessibility grant

2:21:48of up to 10,000 for going above and beyond

2:21:51what the building code requires.

2:21:54So for both the homeowner and the developer project stream,

2:21:59we're proposing an affordability requirement of 15 years.

2:22:03And this is based on research.

2:22:04So that's different than the first two programs

2:22:06I spoke about that were at 25 years.

2:22:08For the ADUs, the 15 years is based on research

2:22:12on comparator municipalities and interviews

2:22:14that planning staff conducted over the summer

2:22:17with developers in this field.

2:22:22A 25 year affordability requirement

2:22:24was felt to significantly limit

2:22:26the pool of potential applicants to the program.

2:22:32As we're in tight timelines again, December 31st, 2026,

2:22:37we feel that with the 15 year affordability requirement,

2:22:41the program will be attractive.

2:22:47So in summary, the feedback we heard

2:22:51was largely in favor of the CIP programs

2:22:53as a tool to incentivize the affordable units.

2:22:56So we plan on listening to the discussion tonight,

2:23:00listening to the comments, answering any questions

2:23:02the council, the public may have,

2:23:04and bringing back the report, as I said,

2:23:06a final recommendation report for January 21st.

2:23:10So we can start moving forward

2:23:11and get some of these units in the construction hopper.

2:23:16Thank you.

2:23:19Thank you, James.

2:23:21Appreciate your presentation.

2:23:24And so let's just go quickly to our delegations

2:23:28that have come forward.

2:23:29David Douglas is first in person.

2:23:33Is David Douglas here?

2:23:36Oh, yep, okay, there you are, David, come on down.

2:23:42And is Mike Labby here?

2:23:44Mike, okay, great, you're in the wings.

2:23:48And the third is Morgan Dandy, is Morgan here?

2:23:50Yeah, okay, you're in the front, perfect.

2:23:52So you three are ready to go.

2:23:53David, I'll turn it over to you again,

2:23:55no more than five minutes, okay?

2:23:57Go ahead.

2:23:58Thank you.

2:23:59Thank you, Mr. Mayor and members of council

2:24:01for the opportunity to speak to you.

2:24:04I'm not going to speak to any of the technical specifics

2:24:08of the matters before you.

2:24:12I know little about them

2:24:13and most of them are well beyond me.

2:24:16But I do want to encourage you to avail yourself

2:24:18of this rare opportunity to expedite the production

2:24:22of affordable housing,

2:24:23which our community desperately needs.

2:24:27You have an experienced and credible

2:24:31nonprofit housing organization before you

2:24:33who'll be making their presentation after me.

2:24:38And they're making a serious and strongly argued proposal,

2:24:41which by all accounts,

2:24:43at least that which is available to me,

2:24:46will materially contribute to the delivery

2:24:48of housing in our community.

2:24:52The proponents are not asking for grants, subsidies,

2:24:56forgivable loans, or similar special treatment.

2:25:00They will not draw upon the Housing Accelerator Fund

2:25:04from the federal government.

2:25:06They are therefore not competing for the scarce resources

2:25:09that other housing organizations might wish to access.

2:25:14They do not require access to specific city-owned resources.

2:25:19And the recommendations will have no impact

2:25:22on the mayor's proposed budget,

2:25:24so there's no direct call on the tax base,

2:25:27as I understand it.

2:25:29And they're not seeking special treatment,

2:25:32such as an exemption.

2:25:34My understanding is that they are seeking a tax deferral,

2:25:39which will be fully repaid as a stream of revenues

2:25:42for the city.

2:25:44Once developing gets underway,

2:25:45an occupancy takes place.

2:25:48All development charges and all other fees and charges

2:25:52will be repaid and full to the city.

2:25:56This same tax deferral mechanism,

2:25:58which when instituted by the city,

2:26:01would also be open to any other non-profit,

2:26:04affordable housing delivery agency.

2:26:08So they're proposing an instrument in collaboration

2:26:11with the city, a form of tax increment financing,

2:26:15as I've generally understood it,

2:26:17that the city itself has previously used

2:26:20and that has been successfully used

2:26:22in the multiplicity of other jurisdictions

2:26:25for over 50 years.

2:26:28It is not an untried experimental device

2:26:31with unknown and unacceptable risks.

2:26:35They propose using an instrument

2:26:37that several neighboring municipalities,

2:26:39such as the region of Waterloo,

2:26:41cities of Waterloo, Cambridge, and Kitchener,

2:26:44are now using.

2:26:46So the question is, for me anyway,

2:26:49what's in the way here?

2:26:50What's getting in the way?

2:26:52What of any planning legislation?

2:26:54What official plan amendments?

2:26:56What zoning by-law amendments?

2:26:59What financial risk analysis?

2:27:01Or otherwise, tells us that there are obstacles here.

2:27:06But giving the burning priority

2:27:08that is affordable housing,

2:27:10and given that there's no Ontario Housing Corporation

2:27:14delivering these houses for us, as we used to have,

2:27:18what could hold the city up?

2:27:20What could hold up its decision

2:27:22to move ahead with this constructive

2:27:24and timely collaboration?

2:27:27So I strongly urge you to make this collaboration

2:27:30a priority.

2:27:32Institute the recommendations now

2:27:34and expedite the production of affordable housing

2:27:38in our community.

2:27:39Thank you.

2:27:42Thank you, David.

2:27:43Is there any questions?

2:27:45Seeing none, thank you for your presentation.

2:27:47Thank you.

2:27:48And Mike Klebe is here.

2:27:52Mike, come on down.

2:27:54From Home Opportunities Nonprofit.

2:27:56Thank you for coming, Mike.

2:27:57And speaking of Mike, the mic is on,

2:28:01so you can start whenever you're ready.

2:28:03I have a little bit of a point of order

2:28:05before I speak, just to make sure things are clear.

2:28:09We originally were coming forward

2:28:11to speak to an amendment to the CIP.

2:28:14But Councillor Goller and staff have worked out

2:28:17a different proposed recommendation

2:28:19that is unrelated to the CIP,

2:28:22but related to the housing issue itself.

2:28:25So I can say what I wanna say now,

2:28:27related to that motion,

2:28:29but the motion itself isn't related

2:28:30to the approval of the CIP that you're receiving.

2:28:34So it's just a question of whether you receive the CIP

2:28:37and comments related to it.

2:28:38Then I come back and speak to the very motion

2:28:40that Councillor Goller is raising.

2:28:44Yeah, so our procedural bylaw wouldn't allow that.

2:28:47So our procedural bylaw entails that delegates must speak

2:28:51to the items that are on the agenda.

2:28:54So you may be in the know of a potential motion

2:28:58that might be coming forward from Councillor Goller,

2:29:01but the rest of the public does not know that.

2:29:04And so I would ask that you keep your comments

2:29:08as best as you can, please, to the item that's on the agenda.

2:29:12Of course, you could speak to what you like about it

2:29:16or what you don't like or what you would like to see.

2:29:19You know, that's all in order.

2:29:21So I've just asked, again, I don't know what you're gonna say,

2:29:23but if you could try to stay within those guardrails,

2:29:26I'd appreciate it,

2:29:27because I don't wanna have to interrupt you or anybody

2:29:29about not speaking to the item that is on the agenda.

2:29:33But with those parameters, does that make sense to you?

2:29:36That works for me.

2:29:37Okay.

2:29:38Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

2:29:39So I will clerk, so just be aware of time.

2:29:41We can start the clock as of now.

2:29:42Okay, go right ahead.

2:29:44Thank you, Mr. Mayor, fellow counselors, counselors.

2:29:51I will try to keep my comments brief,

2:29:54because I actually wanted to be here and available

2:29:56for questions as opposed to making

2:29:58a full five-minute presentation.

2:30:00I think I've mentioned this before,

2:30:02but I've been, March of next year will be 45 years

2:30:06that I've been working on affordable housing

2:30:07as a full-time career.

2:30:10My goal from the beginning has been to try to figure out

2:30:13a way to come up with a solution to our housing problems,

2:30:16not since we're away to build housing.

2:30:19And so very quickly, what I realized when I switched

2:30:22from doing affordable rental in 1993 to affordable ownership

2:30:26is that there are not sufficient grants and subsidies

2:30:29to actually provide a comprehensive solution

2:30:31to the housing needs that we have.

2:30:34And so we started to work on systems

2:30:37that didn't require grants and subsidies.

2:30:39And so they're primarily lending systems.

2:30:42And so what we were going to do with staff

2:30:45was together go to the province to borrow money

2:30:49for housing in this case, so as a capital project.

2:30:53But the suggestion was to look at the CIP, which we did.

2:30:57And with that in mind, we started talking about a TIF,

2:31:00so a tax incremental grant,

2:31:02because we don't want a permanent grant.

2:31:04What we've done is proposed that we do a grant,

2:31:08but we commit to repaying it over time.

2:31:11And the repayment time that it would take us

2:31:14is we'd be paying fully the amount associated

2:31:17with the TIF in 10 years,

2:31:20and repay what was not paid in the earlier 10 years

2:31:23within 13 years.

2:31:24So it happens quite quickly.

2:31:27What I do want to explain is the TIF itself to be clear.

2:31:29The TIF is the difference between the current taxes

2:31:32that are paid on the land and the taxes that will be paid

2:31:36when it becomes a rental project.

2:31:38That's the amount of money that we're talking about

2:31:40in terms of what we call a deferral,

2:31:42what would be actually a grant.

2:31:44Also, I wanted to be clear that it's not until 2028

2:31:50that our project become active,

2:31:52and therefore there would be a relationship

2:31:54to your tax base.

2:31:55So it's nothing that's happening in the short term.

2:31:59In the medium term, the implications are minimal,

2:32:01and that's the last thing I want to spend

2:32:03a little bit of time on.

2:32:04What do I mean by minimal?

2:32:06So we had a public meeting just recently

2:32:08for a project we're working on in Clare Road,

2:32:11and out comes a 26-year-old woman

2:32:14who's living with her parents,

2:32:16who bought their first house when they were 24 years old,

2:32:19and she did not believe she'd have a chance

2:32:21to become a homeowner.

2:32:22Now all of a sudden, through the model we're working with,

2:32:25with your help, we'll be able to give her a chance

2:32:27to become a homeowner.

2:32:29So here's somebody that's already flushing the toilets,

2:32:31already drinking the water, already producing garbage,

2:32:34already using all the facilities and Guelph

2:32:36that's gonna move into one of our units.

2:32:39What is the cost to the taxpayer of a same person

2:32:42just moving from one place to another?

2:32:44So that the impact during the time

2:32:46where the taxes are being granted back is minimal,

2:32:51but as time goes on, she has a family,

2:32:53she has kids, and she starts to add,

2:32:54and that's when we start repaying taxes

2:32:57on a break-even basis to the city.

2:32:58So that applied, we also ran into our grandmother

2:33:02that was very excited to get out of her home,

2:33:04which was spoken to earlier today that would move in.

2:33:06She already lives in the city,

2:33:08and a man and his son who had already taken advantage

2:33:12of an options project that we'd done before in the city

2:33:15who was excited about becoming homeowners.

2:33:17So we're planning to serve people who already live in Guelph.

2:33:20And so the impact related to the fact

2:33:23we're not paying taxes immediately,

2:33:25but over time growing to paint it all back

2:33:27is quite minimal.

2:33:30And that, and so the reason we've said

2:33:35this is for non-profit dealer agencies,

2:33:37we don't intend to be the only people delivering in Guelph.

2:33:40We wanna do at least 1,000 units a year,

2:33:43that's what the city needs,

2:33:44and we don't expect to be doing it all ourselves.

2:33:47So we wanted there to be ability through our request

2:33:50to allow all the non-profit agencies

2:33:52to help us deliver the 1,000 units a year that we need.

2:33:56And thank you, everybody.

2:33:57I'm here to answer questions.

2:34:00Well, thank you very much for your presentation.

2:34:03Councillor Goller, and then to Downer,

2:34:08I just want us to stick to the item

2:34:13that's on the agenda, okay, everybody?

2:34:16So please let's do that.

2:34:18Thank you.

2:34:19Thank you, Mayor Worship.

2:34:20Thank you for your presentation.

2:34:22It's my understanding that other communities,

2:34:25community improvement plan for affordable housing

2:34:28have this TIF model embedded.

2:34:31Could you tell me a little bit about the other communities,

2:34:34like I believe that Cambridge Waterloo Kitchener,

2:34:36they have a similar model in place?

2:34:39It's a very common tool.

2:34:41Guelph yourselves have used it related

2:34:43to some of the projects that options did.

2:34:45You've used it related to Brownfield sites.

2:34:48City of Toronto completely waves their taxes

2:34:52for 99 years in terms of their TIF arrangement.

2:34:55So it's a very, very common tool that's been used

2:34:58for decades in terms of the city.

2:35:00So the various cities around the province.

2:35:03I can't think of one that hasn't used it in some form.

2:35:07Primarily the Brownfield sites is the most common,

2:35:09but related to affordable housing,

2:35:11you know, Hamilton is doing it.

2:35:13Waterloo has done it in certain cases.

2:35:16Even a place like Barrie has been talking about doing it.

2:35:20Thank you.

2:35:21Thank you, Worship.

2:35:23Thank you, and Downer, please.

2:35:26Thank you for you, Mr. Mayor.

2:35:27So I was just checking.

2:35:30So these are affordable units.

2:35:34So they're not sold at market price.

2:35:37So the definition of affordability

2:35:39for the city and the province based on what they say is,

2:35:43I think it's 398,000.

2:35:47So are these affordable?

2:35:49Are these at that price or below?

2:35:52Good question.

2:35:53There's a lot of definitions of affordability.

2:35:55The one that we've been working with as our goal

2:35:59is that 30% of the units can be carried below the income

2:36:05that qualifies for 80% of the average rent level in Guelph.

2:36:10That is the federal definition for affordability,

2:36:13which is also recognized by the province.

2:36:17Our method of handling the homes is that people pay

2:36:20at market value and they carry it,

2:36:22what they can afford to carry.

2:36:24In some cases, the market value will be below that figure.

2:36:28In other cases, it'll be the carrying cost

2:36:30that's below that figure.

2:36:31But we want to be using the federal definition

2:36:34for affordability because we wanna be serving

2:36:36exactly the same people who would be served

2:36:38through the federal subsidized rental programs.

2:36:42Oh, so it's a federal definition of affordable.

2:36:45So it's not the city's, so, okay, so I see,

2:36:53so I see, so it, yeah, so, okay,

2:36:57that may complicate things a bit.

2:36:58But anyway, the other question is,

2:37:00has the province made any commitment

2:37:02for the request for 75 million or CMHC for the 96 million?

2:37:09So CMHC has confirmed that we meet

2:37:11their policy guidelines related to borrowing,

2:37:14but they can't confirm the 96

2:37:16until we make an application to them.

2:37:18Provinces done the same thing.

2:37:20They've confirmed that we qualify to borrow from them,

2:37:22but they've told us we have to come in partnership

2:37:25with a city in order to borrow.

2:37:28Agreeing to the TIF arrangement shows your partnership

2:37:31and that will allow us to go to the province

2:37:33to borrow the money.

2:37:34But once we have the TIF arrangement,

2:37:36we don't exclusively have to go to the province.

2:37:37We could borrow from credit unions,

2:37:39we could borrow from the federal government,

2:37:41we could borrow from any source

2:37:44that is interested in our model.

2:37:46And the credit unions have been the most interested

2:37:48in what we're doing.

2:37:50So these may not be affordable units by definition,

2:37:55even under the Canadian model, right?

2:37:57Under the federal model?

2:37:59They will always be affordable

2:38:01under the definition of the federal model, yes.

2:38:03Okay, so how long would they be affordable for?

2:38:07Good question.

2:38:09The way that our model works is every time a home sells,

2:38:12it frees up the money to provide a replacement unit.

2:38:15So we will guarantee affordability

2:38:18in terms of the portfolio of the number of units

2:38:20we've committed to Guelph in perpetuity.

2:38:23But it won't be in that particular location,

2:38:25which works within the federal definition as well.

2:38:27You have to maintain the number of units

2:38:29that are affordable, you don't have to maintain them

2:38:31in one particular location.

2:38:33So I could buy one and flip it in a couple of years?

2:38:38You could buy one and sell it in a couple of years

2:38:41and all of the money that we'd lent to you

2:38:43would be passed on to the next person of a similar income

2:38:46in another unit within the city of Guelph.

2:38:49But that person will have added affordable price

2:38:53and then get to benefit.

2:38:54The next person would get an affordable price, exactly.

2:38:57Point over to the motion.

2:38:58No, no, not on the same unit, but anyway, okay.

2:39:02Not on that same unit, though.

2:39:03That's correct, it would move from unit to unit.

2:39:05Now, remembering when that unit sells,

2:39:07all the benefit that Guelph gave to that unit is given back.

2:39:12Okay.

2:39:15So not to get too far into a specific,

2:39:17like development plan,

2:39:18because that's not why we're here,

2:39:20but we appreciate the concept.

2:39:23I would definitely say that part out loud.

2:39:26And so, in working with Councillor Goller,

2:39:30perhaps there's something that he might bring forward

2:39:32as a discussion point after we kind of solidify

2:39:34the CIP item that's here.

2:39:37So I would just say stay tuned, okay?

2:39:41I don't know if there's another.

2:39:42Okay, Councillor, all just again,

2:39:44in the premise of the item that we're here

2:39:46not to get into a specific development matter,

2:39:50please just keep that in mind

2:39:51before you ask the question, go ahead.

2:39:53Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

2:39:55I believe that I'm following on Councillor Goller's

2:39:58questioning.

2:39:59Mr. Lebe, thanks for being in front of us.

2:40:01The first question that I have to ask you,

2:40:03because we don't have a TIF right now.

2:40:07Why here?

2:40:07Why not Hamilton, Waterloo or Coingwood?

2:40:12Well, we basically go where we're,

2:40:14oh, through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:40:17I will get that habit of mine.

2:40:20We are in the habit of going to places

2:40:23where people are interested in providing affordable housing.

2:40:26So we don't go look, but we're invited

2:40:28to various communities.

2:40:29So in this instance, the local individual

2:40:33who had worked with me at Options for Homes in the past

2:40:36was very interested in bringing housing to Guelph.

2:40:38He found an opportunity and we've been excited

2:40:41to work here ever since that was discovered.

2:40:45Thank you.

2:40:46The next question follows up almost directly

2:40:48on Councillor Goller.

2:40:50And that's the federal definition of affordability.

2:40:52So the question for me is,

2:40:55how much is an affordable unit at the federal level?

2:41:00Well, staff may actually have those figures

2:41:03if we relate to the carrying cost at 80%

2:41:06of the average rent level in Guelph.

2:41:09But we're talking in terms of $1,000

2:41:12for a bachelor, $1,100, $1,200 for a one bedroom,

2:41:16$1,400 for a two, we intend to be below those carrying costs.

2:41:25Thank you, Councillor.

2:41:26I think you said thank you when you were muted

2:41:28and now you've unmuted.

2:41:29So I just want to make sure.

2:41:30Thank you very much.

2:41:32Just trying to cover you so you don't say anything

2:41:35that you don't want to say there.

2:41:37All right.

2:41:40That looks like it's it.

2:41:41So again, I would just say stay tuned, I guess,

2:41:43for after we kind of finish off on the CIP here, okay?

2:41:46Thank you very much for your presentation.

2:41:49Morgan Dandy, come on up.

2:41:57It says here Morgan Dandy on behalf of Lily Padd Community.

2:42:01So come on down when you can.

2:42:19Sorry, go ahead, Morgan, whenever you're ready.

2:42:24I actually tear alone.

2:42:27Good evening, Mayor, Council, staff and fellow Guelphites.

2:42:31Thank you for the opportunity to address

2:42:33the Draft Guelph Housing Accelerator Fund

2:42:36Community Improvement Plan.

2:42:38My name is Morgan Dandy and tonight

2:42:41I am representing Lily Padd Communities.

2:42:45Lily Padd Communities is a nascent organization

2:42:48working to create alternative pathways

2:42:51to appropriate attainable, affordable housing,

2:42:56whether through tendency or ownership,

2:42:59specifically for low income individuals and families.

2:43:05We are grateful for the work staff has done

2:43:08to create the draft half CIP before Council today.

2:43:13And we look forward to hearing about the additional work

2:43:17mentioned in the letter from Home Opportunities Nonprofit

2:43:22to make this draft even better.

2:43:26While this draft presents a possible path for some

2:43:29to create additional affordable housing

2:43:31as defined by the province,

2:43:33we wonder if it goes far enough to be truly effective.

2:43:38The figures provided seem inadequate

2:43:41to incentivize individual homeowners

2:43:43to provide affordable housing versus market rate,

2:43:47given that over 15 years a homeowner

2:43:50will have considerably less rent collected

2:43:53than incentives provided.

2:43:56The idea of a project of three to six ADUs is intriguing

2:44:02and Lily Padd Communities would require

2:44:04some additional information about what constitutes

2:44:07a project before we could adequately analyze

2:44:11if that stream would be something that would work for us.

2:44:16And again, the figures seem a little insufficient

2:44:19to incentivize this type of build.

2:44:23The half is a tool to be used by municipalities

2:44:26to create affordable homes faster,

2:44:30yet the benchmarks having to be used

2:44:32to define this affordability are inaccurate

2:44:36for a certain low income demographic,

2:44:39where even affording an appropriate room is unattainable.

2:44:45This is where Lily Padd Communities is working

2:44:48to find bridges over the gaps

2:44:50for low income individuals and families

2:44:54to obtain adequate and appropriate housing

2:44:58at rates affordable to them.

2:45:02By collaborating with packed homes,

2:45:04we can provide innovative and green construction techniques

2:45:09to get homes built fast.

2:45:12We believe there is an avenue for our model

2:45:15within this community improvement plan,

2:45:18specifically in accessory dwelling units

2:45:21and through potential brownfield redevelopment.

2:45:25We're excited to learn more

2:45:27about the new affordable residential unit grant stream

2:45:31when the motion is able to be fully incorporated

2:45:34in future budget deliberations.

2:45:37The draft half CIP is a good start for Guelph

2:45:41to create some truly attainable affordable housing

2:45:45and Lily Padd Communities looks forward

2:45:48to being a part of the process.

2:45:52We hope council will receive this draft today

2:45:55and work to include the necessary funding changes

2:45:58to further unlock affordable housing opportunities

2:46:01in the affordable residential unit grant stream.

2:46:05Lily Padd Communities looks forward to working with the city

2:46:09to begin providing alternate models

2:46:12of appropriate attainable affordable housing,

2:46:17be it rental units or owned.

2:46:20Let's keep low income individuals and families housed.

2:46:25Thank you.

2:46:27Thank you, Morgan for your presentation.

2:46:29Is there any questions?

2:46:33Hearing and seeing none, thank you very much.

2:46:37Okay, we are back to us here.

2:46:47Yeah, I was in the literally in the middle of saying

2:46:50back to us now, but we need to go to the phones.

2:46:55And if I could just not have people yell

2:46:57from the chambers, I would appreciate that.

2:46:59If I'm gonna go to the phones

2:47:01and I'm gonna go into the room as well,

2:47:04we're gonna just take five minutes,

2:47:06four or five minutes, five, one, nine, eight, three, seven,

2:47:10five, six, oh, three, that would be great.

2:47:14And I did see someone else just stand up randomly here.

2:47:17So I'll go to you first when we come back

2:47:19in that four minute break, okay?

2:47:20And we'll just need your name

2:47:22when you come up to the mic, I'll call you up, okay?

2:47:24No problem, just give us like four minutes to wait.

2:49:50Okay, this is just a 30 second warning.

2:49:52Maybe everyone can just kind of take their seat there.

2:49:54And so far we've got no one that's called in.

2:49:57So just to just give us 20 more seconds here

2:49:59and then we'll go to you, sir.

2:50:23Clerks, we're good.

2:50:24Okay, we'll just go in the room then.

2:50:26So I need to put on my glasses here.

2:50:29Thank you for coming down.

2:50:30Just for the record, we just need someone to,

2:50:32you just have to state your name.

2:50:33And is there anyone else?

2:50:36No, so just yourself, sir.

2:50:37Go right ahead, so I'll see you

2:50:38and then you got your time.

2:50:40Go ahead.

2:50:41This is Eric Martin and I'm here to provide feedback

2:50:44on a specific part of the plan.

2:50:47And that's what's listed as a program stream

2:50:50and was referred to as the developer stream here tonight.

2:50:55I've had lots of great conversations with the city staff.

2:50:58They have taken all my calls and emails, so I commend them.

2:51:03The report shows that they've listened

2:51:05to a lot of stakeholders and I'm here tonight

2:51:08as a landlord.

2:51:09So earlier speakers been in this business

2:51:12since for 45 years, but I bought my first rental property

2:51:16in Guelph in 81.

2:51:17So I've been a landlord in Guelph since 81

2:51:20and I'm not a developer.

2:51:22I only have five bungalows, but the way the plan is worded

2:51:28right now when you're looking for feedback

2:51:30is that it's three to six units, which excludes me.

2:51:35So on my five bungalows, I could be building ADUs,

2:51:40which would contribute housing.

2:51:42In fact, I've built one and we started on July the eighth.

2:51:47The tenant moved in already.

2:51:49So it's very nimble.

2:51:51It's a one bedroom unit.

2:51:52So it's contributing housing and it's contributing

2:51:56a small unit, but the way the wording is right now,

2:51:59it's listed as a project stream.

2:52:02The staff called it developer stream here tonight.

2:52:06I'm kind of surprised, but if you lowered the minimum

2:52:10from three, which is where the wording is right now,

2:52:13to zero, there would be more people could participate.

2:52:21So I believe just from the April meeting

2:52:24that there's a thousand ADUs in the city currently.

2:52:28So there's already, you know, those people,

2:52:31those landlords could be adding units,

2:52:37but not the way it's worded right now.

2:52:42It's a very simple change.

2:52:43Just get rid of the minimum.

2:52:44You might consider getting rid of the maximum,

2:52:49but certainly the minimum.

2:52:50So if there's a thousand ADUs out there now,

2:52:53they're probably, I'm guessing, basement apartments,

2:52:57and they probably have backyards.

2:53:01So if you're up against, the money's gonna run out

2:53:04or get clawed back, and other speakers said,

2:53:08there's probably not the uptake.

2:53:10Like it's not much of an incentive

2:53:12for that long of a period of affordability.

2:53:15I'm skeptical about delivering the number of units,

2:53:21because it's just a guess.

2:53:23It's not a criticism.

2:53:25It's not, because they've been amazing,

2:53:27but just reduce the minimum to zero, or one.

2:53:32Not zero, but one.

2:53:34That's my feedback.

2:53:35The staff knew I was coming, but I wanted you to hear.

2:53:39Great.

2:53:41Thank you very much.

2:53:43And so I'll go to Councillor Goller for questions.

2:53:47Thank you.

2:53:48Thank you for your presentation.

2:53:49And just to be clear with the incentive,

2:53:52you were talking about the one for the additional

2:53:55dual-in unit, or the incentive that is provided,

2:54:01the $10,000 plus potentially an additional 20,

2:54:05plus an additional 10, if it's accessible.

2:54:07Would that be enough incentive for you to encourage you

2:54:09to build one or two additional dual-in units

2:54:13and maintain them at the affordable rate for 15 years?

2:54:16That, yeah, it's an option.

2:54:19Right now it's not an option.

2:54:20Okay, okay, well, I appreciate that.

2:54:22Thank you.

2:54:23And Councillor Oroarke has a question as well.

2:54:29Okay, nope, not anymore.

2:54:30Is there any other questions?

2:54:34Seeing none, thank you for coming down.

2:54:36Yeah, I thought I saw someone else pop up.

2:54:39Susan Watson, come on down.

2:54:46Welcome, and I'll turn it over to you.

2:54:48Thank you.

2:54:49Mayor Guthrie and members of council,

2:54:51there are several aspects of the staff report

2:54:53that I'd like to address,

2:54:55and I'm going to start with the affordable monthly

2:54:58rental rate and ownership benchmarks

2:55:00on page three of the staff report.

2:55:03The rental prices that are listed in figure one

2:55:06are not affordable.

2:55:09I recognize that this is a definition

2:55:11and set of figures imposed by the province,

2:55:15but I would like Guelph City Council

2:55:16to consider starting to use the term market affordable

2:55:20in these situations to create greater clarity for citizens.

2:55:24These benchmarks are linked to average rental rates

2:55:28in a given market and then set 20% below that rate.

2:55:32So if the cost of housing is surging,

2:55:34then so is the affordability benchmark.

2:55:37And it doesn't appear that these rates

2:55:39take utilities into account.

2:55:42What if we look at these numbers

2:55:43through a renters income lens?

2:55:46It's generally accepted that in order

2:55:48for your housing to be affordable,

2:55:50housing costs should take up no more

2:55:52than 30% of your gross income.

2:55:55So even without taking utilities into account,

2:55:58in order to have the 1,500 a month

2:56:01for a one-bedroom apartment be 30% of your income,

2:56:04you would have to be making $60,000 a year.

2:56:07Basically a professional salary like a new teacher

2:56:10or a recently graduated engineer.

2:56:13A minimum wage worker in Guelph making $17.20 an hour

2:56:17for a 40 hour work week,

2:56:19earns just under $36,000 a year.

2:56:23The affordable one-bedroom apartments

2:56:25we're being asked to subsidize

2:56:26would be 60% of that person's income.

2:56:29And even the affordable bachelor apartment

2:56:31doesn't meet the 30% threshold

2:56:33for a minimum wage employee,

2:56:35clocking in at 39% of their income.

2:56:37And also that appears to be before utilities.

2:56:41And clearly no one who is on social assistance

2:56:44can afford any of these units,

2:56:47much less people who are living in the many tents

2:56:50now scattered throughout our community.

2:56:54So please let's start talking about this category of housing

2:56:57as market affordable.

2:56:58It's actually not affordable in any meaningful way

2:57:01for low income Guelphites.

2:57:05The other thing I want to address

2:57:06is where public money is going.

2:57:09Councillor Caron pointed out in relationship

2:57:11to the matter of whether or not Enbridge pays fees

2:57:14to the city that you as counselors

2:57:17have a fiduciary duty to make the best financial decisions

2:57:21in the interests of citizens.

2:57:23The near 30 year experiment of leaving the provision

2:57:27of really affordable housing to the private sector

2:57:31has been an unmitigated disaster.

2:57:35It is a shamefully failed experiment.

2:57:38And we need to recognize this

2:57:40and stop throwing public dollars at developers

2:57:43expecting them to do something different.

2:57:46The fact that units only have to be affordable

2:57:48for 25 years, I actually find outrageous.

2:57:53What private sector investor would ever put 3.5 million

2:57:56or 1.5 million into an investment

2:57:59that would be worth precisely zero to them

2:58:03at the end of 25 years?

2:58:05No wonder we're not making any progress

2:58:07on the affordable housing front

2:58:09if all of our public investment turns into a pumpkin

2:58:12at the end of 25 years.

2:58:15So how can we preserve the value of public investment

2:58:19whether it's federal or municipal dollars?

2:58:23The answer is that public money needs to be invested

2:58:26in publicly owned, cooperative, or not-for-profit housing.

2:58:32These housing providers provide

2:58:34preserve affordability and perpetuity.

2:58:38And as a citizen, I am sick and tired

2:58:41of subsidizing developer profits with my taxes

2:58:45while the housing crisis spirals

2:58:46further and further out of control.

2:58:49So how does this specifically apply

2:58:52to the three programs in staff's proposal?

2:58:55First, the vacant residential unit

2:58:57and vacant space conversion grant.

2:59:00Who are the public institutions

2:59:02who can benefit from this grant?

2:59:05The first thing that comes to mind for me

2:59:07is the old cooperators building and Conestoga College.

2:59:11Converting upper floors of a former office space

2:59:15into new college residences could be one great use

2:59:19of this fund with a public institution.

2:59:23The additional dwelling unit grant

2:59:25is targeted money from the feds, fine.

2:59:29Maybe it will incentivize people

2:59:30who are considering a renovation or granny flat

2:59:33to invest their own resources,

2:59:36perhaps not according to the previous delegate.

2:59:40For the new affordable residential unit grant,

2:59:43I would say absolutely not,

2:59:47unless the housing provider is a co-op, the county,

2:59:50or a not-for-profit such as Habitat for Humanity.

2:59:54The feds are not providing money for this initiative,

2:59:57so it would be coming out of citizen pockets.

3:00:01And I'd like to point out something

3:00:02in the financial implications of the report

3:00:04that I'd like you to keep in mind

3:00:06for the upcoming budget process.

3:00:08And staff, I quote, say,

3:00:10additional financial incentives

3:00:12for the development of affordable housing units

3:00:15can be expected to increase the cost of exemptions.

3:00:20Development charge exemptions are funded

3:00:23by property taxes and utility rates.

3:00:28I'll repeat that again.

3:00:29Development charge exemptions are funded

3:00:32by property taxes and utility rates.

3:00:37I have been protesting

3:00:38against the 25% development charge subsidy

3:00:41that Mike Harris forced Ontario citizens,

3:00:44forced us to cough up for decades.

3:00:47Doug Ford has now put that program on steroids.

3:00:50If a house or apartment is considered affordable

3:00:53according to provincial benchmarks,

3:00:55then we will be required

3:00:57to waive the development charge completely.

3:00:59So what does that mean in real money?

3:01:02Well, for a detached house,

3:01:04we will be handing over, based on RDCs,

3:01:08$85,000 in public money

3:01:11to cover the infrastructure costs for one detached home.

3:01:16For a two bedroom apartment,

3:01:17we will be handing over $50,000 per apartment

3:01:22to cover the infrastructure costs

3:01:23that will no longer be covered by development charges.

3:01:27I was here in this chamber when Gary Scanlon

3:01:30from Watson and Associates, who is now retired,

3:01:34told you that in his entire career,

3:01:37he had never seen a cut in lot levies

3:01:40or development charges translate

3:01:43into lower prices for home buyers.

3:01:46So exactly what is my money

3:01:50and other citizens subsidizing?

3:01:52And we're really paying for it now in more ways than one.

3:01:56The fact that our tax and utility dollars

3:01:59are being diverted to developer profits

3:02:01means that we are now being faced with deep cuts

3:02:04to community services

3:02:06in order to maintain a 4% budget increase.

3:02:09So that's where our money is really going

3:02:11and it's starting to have a real impact

3:02:13on the quality of life for wealth citizens.

3:02:17So if we're going to think about this

3:02:18in terms of fiduciary duty,

3:02:20what kind of value is being derived

3:02:23for this massive public investment?

3:02:26If we are already being forced to subsidize

3:02:28new affordable units,

3:02:30why on earth are we even considering additional subsidies

3:02:34in the face of slashing public projects

3:02:36and services and deferring infrastructure costs?

3:02:40So my bottom line is that public money,

3:02:43whether it's federal or municipal dollars,

3:02:46needs to be invested in public, cooperative,

3:02:50and nonprofit housing.

3:02:52Thank you.

3:02:54Thank you very much for your presentation.

3:02:56Is there a follow up question?

3:02:59Seeing none, thank you very much.

3:03:04And I think that was it, yes?

3:03:06Okay, thank you.

3:03:08So coming back to council now,

3:03:15is there someone that would at least be willing

3:03:17to put the recommendation on the floor for us,

3:03:21which is to have the housing affordable housing

3:03:24community improvement plan public meeting be received?

3:03:28So it's just a motion to receive.

3:03:31Guller and Gibson will do that for us.

3:03:34All right, again, just making sure

3:03:37we're trying to keep our eye on timing tonight

3:03:40for all of our agenda items.

3:03:42Let's start some questions.

3:03:44I'll start with Ororak and then Kate.

3:03:49Thank you, Mayor Guthrie, through you to staff.

3:03:51I'm just curious, with respect to the 25 years

3:03:56or the 15 years, depending on the program,

3:03:59how do we monitor that?

3:04:02How do we make sure those units are subject

3:04:05to a rent control?

3:04:06Because rent control has been eliminated

3:04:08over anything used after 2018.

3:04:13And how do we make sure it can't be a short-term rental?

3:04:25Through the mayor, those are some of the details

3:04:27that we are working through in terms of how do we ensure

3:04:31that any incentive we provide,

3:04:34be it development charge exemptions,

3:04:37parkland dedication exemptions,

3:04:39any funding that is provided

3:04:41through this proposed community improvement plan,

3:04:44that there is a way that we track that annually

3:04:47to ensure that the unit remains affordable

3:04:50over that 25 years.

3:04:52And that could be through a non-payable mortgage

3:04:55registered on title.

3:04:58So we take the total amount of incentive provided

3:05:01and we'd register a mortgage on title

3:05:03that's non-payable unless once that unit became sold

3:05:09or rented above market rate,

3:05:11then that's when we call that city funding back.

3:05:16Okay, so there is a mechanism.

3:05:20Correct, and that's something we're going to continue

3:05:23to work through over the coming month or two.

3:05:27And we'll have more details around that

3:05:29when we come back to council in late January.

3:05:34And through you, Mayor Guthrie, to Mr. Goodrum,

3:05:37does that, we'll be monitoring as well

3:05:40if those units can't be used as short-term rental,

3:05:42that it doesn't become an income stream for folks?

3:05:50Through the mayor, are you referring to the ADU units?

3:05:55Yeah.

3:05:57Yeah, okay, that's something we'll take back

3:05:58and work on and provide an answer in January.

3:06:05Okay, thank you.

3:06:05And Mayor Guthrie, just have a couple more.

3:06:08So the housing accelerator funds are federal dollars, right?

3:06:11And have those funds been received?

3:06:15And what happens if there's a cancellation to that,

3:06:19housing accelerator fund?

3:06:29I can try to answer the first part of this.

3:06:31I don't know what the future's going to hold, obviously,

3:06:34but we have received some allocations

3:06:37of that $21 million fund,

3:06:40and it does roll out over the next couple of years as well.

3:06:44In terms of what the future holds, I can't answer that.

3:06:54Through you, Mayor Guthrie, to counsel our work,

3:06:56I can confirm that we have received $5.3 million

3:07:00in the first installment,

3:07:01and the second installment is expected in March of 25.

3:07:07Okay, that's comforting.

3:07:08So through you, Mayor Guthrie,

3:07:09I'm just trying to prevent that somebody would be

3:07:11wanting to do this and start their plans,

3:07:14and then the subsidy vanishes.

3:07:21I'll just ask one last question,

3:07:22because I know my colleagues have questions as well.

3:07:25So through you, Mayor Guthrie,

3:07:26Ms. Watson raised the point that public dollars

3:07:30from the federal government should go to support

3:07:33nonprofit or public organizations,

3:07:35but are they precluded?

3:07:36So can a Habitat come and propose a project

3:07:42and access these funds or a housing co-op or a nonprofit?

3:07:45Can they access the same programs?

3:07:50Through the mayor, yes.

3:07:52This is not limited to for-profit developers.

3:07:56We're looking at building housing.

3:07:58Great, and sorry, Mayor Guthrie,

3:08:00just a last one through you.

3:08:01There's been some misinformation

3:08:02about the effectiveness of the Housing Accelerator Fund.

3:08:05So I'm just curious what staff's expectations are

3:08:08on the uptake and the speed

3:08:10at which we would see some units come online.

3:08:18Through the mayor to the counselor.

3:08:20So we're actually quite excited

3:08:22about the Housing Accelerator Fund,

3:08:24a third of the municipalities who applied to receive funding,

3:08:26and we were on that list to receive funding.

3:08:28So that's great news for Guelph.

3:08:29This is an opportunity that we did not have a year ago.

3:08:33So it's an opportunity and we think,

3:08:36certainly the CIP is a program that'll move very quickly.

3:08:40We've already brought the demonstration project forward

3:08:43to council for that RFP, so that'll be going out.

3:08:46And we do think the ADU program

3:08:48can have the quickest uptake on that.

3:08:51And that's why it's coming back

3:08:53as soon as we can at the end of January.

3:08:59Thank you, Kate and his next please.

3:09:00And then a goer.

3:09:03And then Ulta too.

3:09:04Sorry, Kate and I just saw Ulta and as well.

3:09:06So yeah, I got you, Phil.

3:09:10Through the mayor, I think that Ms. Watson

3:09:12and Ms. Dandy had some really good points

3:09:14about there not being anything in place

3:09:16for deeply affordable units.

3:09:19So we don't have anything specific to that.

3:09:21I know that we've got a cap on it

3:09:24at what Ms. Watson called the market affordable rate,

3:09:27which I thought was a fair comment.

3:09:30Is there a plan to put something in place

3:09:32so that we are encouraging people to build things

3:09:36that people who are on OW or ODSP can afford to be in?

3:09:49Through the mayor, that's something that we can look at,

3:09:51but I do want to remind council

3:09:53that we are coming back

3:09:54with the housing affordability strategy as well

3:09:56on December 10th, so that could be a discussion there.

3:09:59Right now we haven't looked at that aspect.

3:10:02We've been concentrating on what's before you this evening

3:10:06with respect to what those affordability rates are

3:10:08for rental and ownership.

3:10:11And we haven't looked at the deeply affordable component.

3:10:18Thank you.

3:10:19And through the mayor to staff,

3:10:22what would be the plan in terms of lengthening the 25 years?

3:10:26Is that something that is a standard?

3:10:30Can we make it larger?

3:10:31I know that we've talked about improprietuity before

3:10:33and we put up 99 years.

3:10:35What's stopping us from increasing that timeline?

3:10:43Through the mayor, we came up with the 25 years

3:10:46because it's linked to the DC and Parkland exemptions.

3:10:50So, and our reporting requirements to the province.

3:10:55So that's where we generated that 25 year number

3:10:58for the two programs.

3:11:00And then the 15 year was generated by, you know,

3:11:03discussions with the ADU developers

3:11:08and what would be reasonable to actually

3:11:09and send some of those ADU units.

3:11:14Thank you.

3:11:17Thank you, Councillor Goller than Alt.

3:11:20Thank you, through your worship to staff.

3:11:25Thank you very much for putting this together.

3:11:26I really appreciate it.

3:11:28And I'm looking forward to seeing it being implemented.

3:11:31I did have a question about the process

3:11:36that you've gone through in terms of engaging

3:11:38with stakeholders with the CAP as it is written.

3:11:44Do you have an idea of how many people,

3:11:48organizations would actually come to take advantage

3:11:51of these programs once it is available?

3:11:58So as I presented, we did do a reach out

3:12:01to people, local experts.

3:12:02So be that the home builders, the realtors association,

3:12:05the developers association.

3:12:06So we're comfortable with what's before you today

3:12:09that there will be an uptake

3:12:11and there will be housing developed.

3:12:15That's not to say it's written in stone.

3:12:17Obviously we're going to have to test that over time

3:12:19and make adjustments along the way.

3:12:23In terms of the numbers, I have had some good conversations

3:12:27with people that are looking at taking advantage

3:12:30of all three programs.

3:12:32So, you know, that's good news.

3:12:34And obviously we'll always monitor

3:12:37and look at continuous improvement.

3:12:40Perfect. Thank you very much for that.

3:12:42And with regards to the questions we're getting

3:12:45from the public tonight or from counselors,

3:12:48for example, one of the delegates asked

3:12:50for the ADU project stream,

3:12:53would you consider removing the minimum or the maximums?

3:12:56So will we see that be taken into account

3:13:01when this comes back to us in January?

3:13:03Yep, through the mayor, that's why we're here today.

3:13:06So we'll definitely take that back, discuss it,

3:13:08and then any changes to the program

3:13:11will definitely highlight for council

3:13:13when we're back in January so you can see those changes.

3:13:17Perfect, perfect.

3:13:18And I just wanted to clarify with the question

3:13:22of limiting this to nonprofit developers.

3:13:25If we were to do that, then if we were to say

3:13:28only nonprofit organizations could apply for this,

3:13:32what is your sense that that would have,

3:13:34in terms of an impact to the viability of this program?

3:13:40Through the mayor, I obviously that would limit

3:13:42the pool of applicants and the provision

3:13:45of affordable housing, which is the target here.

3:13:51Right now with those discussions I've been having,

3:13:53I've been having them with both for-profit

3:13:56and not for-profit developers.

3:13:58I have had some interest from downtown building owners

3:14:01as well, where we can convert some of those upper floors

3:14:04and get more people living downtown,

3:14:05which is part of our downtown revitalization efforts.

3:14:08So yeah, I wouldn't want to limit it,

3:14:11but those are some of the things we could look at

3:14:13as we roll the program out and see what the uptake is.

3:14:18Okay, okay.

3:14:19Thank you, thank you very much for that.

3:14:21And my last question through your worship,

3:14:25in terms of the size of the units,

3:14:27I see that we use a size that is used by Wellington County.

3:14:32And you did speak to the question of accessibility,

3:14:35but would you consider actually removing those restrictions

3:14:40so units could potentially be smaller

3:14:43and we could have more lower price points on some of them?

3:14:48Yes, through the mayor, that's definitely something

3:14:50we're going to take back and look at,

3:14:52recognizing that we have to comply with the building code

3:14:55and those other regulations as well.

3:14:57So, but that is something we've heard this evening

3:15:01and something we'll regroup on.

3:15:03Perfect, thank you very much.

3:15:04Thank you, worship.

3:15:05Thank you, Councillor Allt, please.

3:15:08Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:15:09A couple of questions, a couple were answered as well,

3:15:12but Councillor Gallard brought one up

3:15:14that I think is quite important.

3:15:17And so through you to whoever the staff is

3:15:20that can answer this,

3:15:21are there any legal impediments to considering

3:15:23incentivizing for nonprofits versus for profits?

3:15:28Are we obliged to consider both for-profit and non-profit,

3:15:34recognizing that there might be differences

3:15:37in the cost for one versus the other?

3:15:41Through the mayor, we're actually here tonight

3:15:46because a CIP, a community improvement plan

3:15:48is required if we're going to provide

3:15:50financial incentives to private sector,

3:15:54for-profit developers, businesses, property owners.

3:15:58So that's the whole point of being here tonight

3:16:01in terms of dealing with the not-for-profit side of things,

3:16:06there is more flexibility under the municipal act

3:16:09to do things that Guelph has done in the past

3:16:12with some of the other not-for-profit projects

3:16:15that have come forward.

3:16:18Thank you, and I think this is the last question,

3:16:20but it was raised by Mr. LeBae

3:16:24that they are using a federal definition of affordability.

3:16:29Is there someone that can explain to me

3:16:31what the actual cost difference is for a purchasable unit

3:16:37based on the federal versus the potential definitions

3:16:40of affordability?

3:16:51Through the mayor, yeah, we don't have the numbers

3:16:54before you tonight.

3:16:55Obviously, we can provide kind of that difference

3:17:00to council via subsequent email or other communications.

3:17:09Typically, but that federal definition is 30% of

3:17:13your gross household income goes to housing.

3:17:16If it's 30% or less, it's affordable.

3:17:18So if you were making your household income

3:17:21was $100,000 a year,

3:17:23as long as you're paying less than $30,000 a year,

3:17:26then that's an affordable unit.

3:17:27What we're looking at is the provincial definition

3:17:31that relates to the development charges

3:17:32where we're trying to hit those lower income thresholds.

3:17:37But we will provide a more fulsome response

3:17:39for you in the coming days.

3:17:41Yes, thank you very much.

3:17:42I think that's important because clearly

3:17:44if we're using one bruise, the other definition,

3:17:48there's a reason for that.

3:17:49Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:17:54Thank you.

3:17:55Is there anything further?

3:17:57Okay, so I guess it's just me then.

3:17:59So opportunity for some feedback, right?

3:18:01So forgive me if I missed this with captured

3:18:08in what's being presented.

3:18:10But do we have to do multiple different programs

3:18:16like you've outlined?

3:18:19Or can we just pool all the money together

3:18:23and have like a big bang for the buck project

3:18:26that just goes and just gets like 100 or 200 units.

3:18:31It's like, boom, done.

3:18:34I know you're trying to capture a different mix.

3:18:36So I appreciate that.

3:18:39But I'm just wondering is the criteria,

3:18:42especially because we're using a lot of the money

3:18:44from the Housing Accelerator Fund,

3:18:46does it require us to have to do different types of incentives

3:18:50or can we just take $6, $7 million and go,

3:18:55hey, RFP, Guelph, who wants $6, $7 million

3:18:59and then we can create criteria for that

3:19:02and we can have a massive low income,

3:19:06you know, amazingly affordable and accessible project

3:19:11that someone puts their hand up and goes, oh my gosh,

3:19:13I'll do that and I'll build X.

3:19:16And we meet the goals, but it's just done once

3:19:19and it's just done once with one big project

3:19:22and we're getting what we want.

3:19:30To the mayor, so with our half funding agreement,

3:19:33we had agreed with the federal government

3:19:36to both do a community improvement plan incentive,

3:19:39which is before each night,

3:19:41as well as the ADU incentive program,

3:19:43which is part of this.

3:19:45So we do have requirements with units

3:19:48tied to those individual programs.

3:19:50So no, we could not just put it into a different project

3:19:53as we would not be meeting our items that we had agreed to.

3:19:57Okay, that's why I asked the question.

3:19:59So that's okay, we can still big blue sky

3:20:02the other idea I had there for something else.

3:20:04But this is good too, don't get me wrong,

3:20:06I just wanted to make sure it wasn't,

3:20:08I just wanted to make sure it couldn't have been

3:20:10the possibility of an either or.

3:20:12It looks like it has to be all, so that's fine.

3:20:16And then the only other thing that I would just say is,

3:20:19I mean, from the end result,

3:20:23whether it's for profit or nonprofit charitable,

3:20:27that it gets this money,

3:20:28is that there will still be a 15 year or a 25 year unit,

3:20:33right?

3:20:34Okay, the only thing that I'll say

3:20:38is that there's probably by default,

3:20:44a little bit more of the possibility of a for profit

3:20:50at the end of the 15 year or at the end of the 25 year

3:20:54to flip it to market.

3:20:58Compared to a co-op, a nonprofit, et cetera,

3:21:02that if they get this fund at the end of the 15 year cycle

3:21:06or at the end of the 25 year cycle,

3:21:08it probably more than likely would remain in the stock

3:21:13of the affordable housing that that provider

3:21:16is already doing.

3:21:19So I would just say that it's good that we're trying to,

3:21:23cast the net wide, as I would say, to make these available.

3:21:29But I would sort of nudge to say

3:21:32at the end of the 15, 25 year timeframe,

3:21:35to know that the upfront investments or incentives

3:21:39went to someone that we probably know

3:21:41will keep them in perpetuity,

3:21:43because of the organization that they are affordable longer,

3:21:47that makes me feel a little bit better.

3:21:50I'll just kind of throw that on the table a little bit.

3:21:52So yeah, I mean, I know this is just for feedback.

3:21:58So I would just say those are the two things

3:22:01that I would throw out at you to consider.

3:22:06So thank you for listening to me.

3:22:09Oh, we have one more hand up, Councillor O'Rourke.

3:22:13Yeah, just a comment, Mayor Gastry, if I could.

3:22:17Yeah, for sure.

3:22:18So I think this CIP is great news.

3:22:21It's money we didn't have last year.

3:22:23It's incentives that aren't coming off the property tax base.

3:22:27Our goal is supply of housing and to do it quickly.

3:22:31Somebody who wants to put in an additional dwelling unit

3:22:34already doesn't have to pay development charges,

3:22:36because the province has required that.

3:22:40This is an additional subsidy,

3:22:42and it's stackable with other programs.

3:22:44So there's also good news broadly in the community

3:22:48with the University of Guelph announcing a project

3:22:50with 50 hundred beds.

3:22:51There's a big project that's coming up later tonight.

3:22:54And we know that in university cities across the country,

3:22:57when the universities are adding additional beds,

3:23:00when the housing supply is increasing,

3:23:02we know that rents are decreasing.

3:23:03So what is exciting to me is that there's a short time horizon

3:23:08to use these grants and that we should see supply moving.

3:23:11So Mr. Goodrum started his remarks by saying,

3:23:14we have currently, and we have had historically,

3:23:17very low rental availability rates,

3:23:19and this could move the needle.

3:23:20So I'm, I for one, I'm very excited.

3:23:25Thank you.

3:23:26I'm sorry, I just, I just forgot one question.

3:23:28My apologies.

3:23:30I did see in the report and even what made me bring up

3:23:33this last question is what Councillor O'Rourke just said

3:23:36using the fact that things are stackable.

3:23:38In other words, there's other incentives

3:23:39that could be stacked on top of this.

3:23:41Can I just get confirmation and maybe if it's a takeaway,

3:23:44that's fine, but part of what has been mentioned a lot

3:23:48over the years is the unit could be somewhat,

3:23:51you know, quote unquote affordable,

3:23:53but with you overhead costs per month, utility rates

3:23:56and such per month being expensive.

3:23:58Can someone access these funds to build,

3:24:02let's say a tiny home in ADU in their backyard?

3:24:05And could they also get like the Guelph-Greener homes

3:24:09to put the Guelph-Greener homes environmental initiatives

3:24:14into that build?

3:24:16So not only would they be able to have an affordable unit,

3:24:19but a way better unit from utility rates

3:24:22and overhead costs for that person

3:24:25that could be in there as well.

3:24:32Through you to Mayor Guthrie.

3:24:34The Guelph-Greener homes program is not applicable

3:24:37to new builds.

3:24:41I can get back to you on the details,

3:24:43but I believe the unit has to be five years old.

3:24:47Okay.

3:24:50Is there a possibility,

3:24:54is there a possibility of you just taking that away

3:24:55then as feedback to see if there's any potential changes

3:24:58to the Guelph-Greener homes program that could be stacked

3:25:02so that we're building,

3:25:03especially if they're standalone,

3:25:04like a tiny home in a backyard,

3:25:06that were actually stackable on some grants

3:25:09to make it completely self-sufficient,

3:25:12more green, better utility rates for the people as well.

3:25:16Can you just take it away at least?

3:25:19For sure.

3:25:20Okay.

3:25:21Thank you.

3:25:22Now I know Councillor Gullert wanted to have

3:25:24sort of a follow-up motion on this

3:25:26because of the topics that's been touched on,

3:25:29but I'd like to call the vote on this.

3:25:32Clerk, I'm so sorry.

3:25:32Has this been moved and seconded already?

3:25:34I think it was.

3:25:35Yeah, okay.

3:25:36So I'll just call the vote on receiving this information.

3:25:39Is anyone against that?

3:25:42Nope.

3:25:43Okay, so that passes.

3:25:44And then Councillor Gullert,

3:25:46you wanted to consider something else.

3:25:48Go ahead.

3:25:49Through your worship, if I could ask the clerks to put it.

3:25:52I have two additional motions to move forward.

3:25:56Now these programs could have been part of a CAP.

3:26:00However, adding them at this point

3:26:02would have delayed the implementation of the CAP.

3:26:06And in conversations with staff,

3:26:07they said that perhaps these could be considered

3:26:09as part of the affordable housing strategy.

3:26:12So I am moving forward two motions.

3:26:14One, that staff provide options to develop

3:26:17a deferral of property tax through incremental tax financing

3:26:20program for nonprofit developers

3:26:23who are building affordable home ownership projects

3:26:25to be recovered when the homes are resorted or rented

3:26:27as part of the affordable housing strategy.

3:26:30And the second one, that staff provide options

3:26:32to develop a program for nonprofit

3:26:34affordable housing developers that allows

3:26:36a no interest deferral of municipal application

3:26:40and permit fees prior to building permit,

3:26:43which would be payable in full prior to the issuance

3:26:46of the building permit as part

3:26:47of the affordable housing strategy.

3:26:49So these would be requesting staff to think about it.

3:26:53Oh.

3:26:54So sorry, just one sec.

3:26:55I need to know if there's a seconder.

3:26:59All right, Kate, go ahead.

3:27:00You have the floor.

3:27:02Thank you.

3:27:03And through your worship,

3:27:05these two motions are targeted at nonprofit developers.

3:27:11And they're looking to provide additional options.

3:27:14One of the delegates spoke to the benefits

3:27:18of the incremental tax financing programs

3:27:22for property tax deferrals.

3:27:25And the other one would be to defer the payments

3:27:29of the municipal applications

3:27:31until the project is ready for construction.

3:27:35So I don't want to spend a lot of time.

3:27:37I don't know if there's any questions

3:27:39from my fellow colleagues.

3:27:40And once again, these are not directing staff

3:27:43to make it happen, but rather to explore options

3:27:46so that when the affordable housing strategy

3:27:49comes back to us, we can explore

3:27:51what these might look like for Guelph.

3:27:55All right, questions to staff.

3:27:58Let's try to make it rapid fire if we can, please.

3:28:00Paulton and then Downer.

3:28:03Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:28:05I talked with Councillor Goller earlier this afternoon

3:28:07about this and I'm not opposed to the principles

3:28:11that he's presented, but some of the language

3:28:13I find incredibly challenging

3:28:16because it strikes me that in motion number one,

3:28:20where he essentially is directing staff

3:28:22to provide options, if we are not directing staff,

3:28:27which I know certainly should be doing at this point,

3:28:30we should be sending them back with something similar

3:28:32to consider the feasibility

3:28:35because the way that it's written,

3:28:37we will have something that comes back to us

3:28:39with various options.

3:28:41And I haven't had my questions answered

3:28:45on whether that is in fact feasible at this point.

3:28:48So consequently, if I have a seconder,

3:28:53I would move to remove the words options,

3:28:59the options I think it is,

3:29:00and consider the feasibility of.

3:29:07Looks like Ororak will second that.

3:29:10I'm gonna quickly call the vote everybody to move us along.

3:29:13Is there anyone against taking out the word options

3:29:17and putting in the word feasibility?

3:29:20No money, giddy up.

3:29:21Okay, that's great.

3:29:23Thank you, Councillor Allt.

3:29:24You still have the floor or can I continue on?

3:29:27Thank you.

3:29:27Number two, I was wondering if I could please hear from staff

3:29:31on the challenges, Mr. Crowder, perhaps,

3:29:34on the challenges of delaying development charges

3:29:38or permit costs and so on until such time

3:29:43as a project is clearly feasible,

3:29:47is clearly going in the ground.

3:29:48And I've got some concerns about missing those upfront costs

3:29:54and the city being left in a position

3:29:58where a great deal of time and money

3:30:00can be put into something

3:30:01and there will not be anything that we get out of it.

3:30:08Through you, Mayor Guthrie, to Councillor Allt,

3:30:10I will start and others can maybe join in.

3:30:13I think from a perspective of the ability

3:30:16to defer that tail building permit stage,

3:30:20we can put in a mechanism to allow that to happen.

3:30:24Our concern would be is if the project doesn't go forward.

3:30:29So currently as the way the motion is written

3:30:32upon building permit issuance, we would collect those fees.

3:30:36If there was never building permit issuance,

3:30:39then fees would therefore not be collected.

3:30:41And therefore staff time that has been put into the project,

3:30:46which could be hundreds of hours, would then not be funded

3:30:50and others can join in.

3:30:57Looks like you're a party of one.

3:31:00Councillor Allt, you still have the floor.

3:31:02Yep, thank you.

3:31:03I think at this point, unless there is an effective amendment

3:31:07to address some of the concerns of what Mr. Crowder presented,

3:31:11I cannot support number two.

3:31:13And I would ask that the motion be split

3:31:15so that I can support number one, reworded

3:31:18and not support number two.

3:31:21That's fine, I can do that.

3:31:23And look, I just wanted to say to everybody here,

3:31:25we have a lot more work ahead of us tonight

3:31:27and looking at the clock.

3:31:29I think what Councillor Allt did

3:31:33by changing it to the word feasibility

3:31:35is enough of a catch all that that's the direction.

3:31:38Like send this off to staff now

3:31:40and let's let them do the feasibility as it's been amended

3:31:44and come back with some more information.

3:31:45And really that's what I think the motion is asking for.

3:31:48So I really don't want us to do deep dives

3:31:51and get into the weeds here tonight on the ins and outs

3:31:54when really the motion on the floor

3:31:55is about just looking for feasibility,

3:31:57report to come back at another time.

3:31:59So I just wanted to see if there's anybody else

3:32:01with questions before I split it out.

3:32:03Point of order, Mayor Guthrie.

3:32:04I think we need feasibility in number two then

3:32:08the way that it's worded.

3:32:10I'm not certain I'd need to see it on screen again.

3:32:15I was under the impression you changed it.

3:32:18I thought on both, but if you want to change it on number two

3:32:21then that's fine as well.

3:32:23I'll go to the clerks just one second Councillor Allt

3:32:25just to confirm, okay?

3:32:30Yeah, the clerks were under the impression

3:32:31that it was changed for both and you're muted.

3:32:35That's exactly what I did.

3:32:37What a surprise to all of us.

3:32:38All right, perfect, perfect, perfect.

3:32:42All right, so are there any more questions

3:32:45or can I just call the vote on these two matters

3:32:49and I'll split them out?

3:32:50Okay, I'll call the vote by going one at a time.

3:32:53So can I please have the motions up on the screens

3:32:56to the clerks please?

3:33:02And I will be calling the vote as amended, okay?

3:33:10That staff provide feasibility to develop a deferral

3:33:13or property tax through incremental tax financing

3:33:16or TIF program for nonprofit developers

3:33:19who are building affordable home ownership projects

3:33:21and to be recovered when homes are resold or rented

3:33:23as part of the affordable housing strategy.

3:33:26All right, I'm gonna call the-

3:33:28Point of order, Mayor Guthrie.

3:33:30I think your language was supposed to be

3:33:32consider feasibility.

3:33:34Yes.

3:33:35Oh, okay, we'll pull it back up on the screen.

3:33:38Thank you.

3:33:40I got into reading mode.

3:33:42Can you pull it back up on the screen for us?

3:33:45Yeah.

3:33:51And the clerks are just reminding us

3:33:53that it is a requirement of emails to clerks

3:33:59for any member of council looking to try

3:34:02to make amendments or changes.

3:34:04I think we did capture it, but as of now,

3:34:07maybe we'll change that procedure next year.

3:34:10Here's hoping that we can trust our staff to do that,

3:34:15but right now we do need emails

3:34:16that have to fly into our clerk's department.

3:34:23So maybe you could just put it back up on the screen though,

3:34:26just to help with anyone trying to handle the wording.

3:34:41Point of order, it's consider the feasibility.

3:35:24Hello, Councillor Alts.

3:35:27We think we have what you're intending to move here,

3:35:30but if you can confirm for us-

3:35:32That's correct, I sent it to you.

3:35:33You should have the email now.

3:35:45Okay, we've got confirmation and a thumbs up.

3:35:48So we're good.

3:35:51I am going to call the vote on just number one as posted.

3:35:56Okay, is anyone against?

3:36:01No one, thank you.

3:36:02Let's pull up number two now, please.

3:36:06And I would imagine it has similar language

3:36:08as was originally intended by Councillor Ald.

3:36:13Councillor Ald, I'd love to just get a verbal

3:36:15or a thumbs up again, emoji.

3:36:16There we go, perfect.

3:36:22I needed that laugh, it's been a long day, it's good.

3:36:27Okay, I'm going to call the vote on this one.

3:36:32Is anyone against that one?

3:36:37Oh, okay, nobody, okay.

3:36:39That passes as well.

3:36:40Thank you, Councillor Goller, appreciate it.

3:36:42Some further incentives to be considered.

3:36:45So appreciate that, thank you very much.

3:36:50Okay, we are going to go to a very quick one.

3:36:56Very quick one here that we only have one delegation on

3:37:00and it's a decision report.

3:37:02I believe that we will be able to handle this very quickly

3:37:05and it is 601 Scottsdale Drive and then that way

3:37:08we can end our evening on the reformatory lands, okay?

3:37:12So 601 Scottsdale Drive, I'm going to ask our delegation.

3:37:17Is Dana Gilbert available standing by?

3:37:27Okay, Dana Gilbert is going to join us, I believe, by video.

3:37:35Can you see me?

3:37:37We can't see you, but we can hear you.

3:37:40I clicked, hold on, it says stop video as opposed to,

3:37:44hold on, let me just see why that's not working.

3:37:48Give me one second.

3:37:50No problem, again we can.

3:37:51Exactly why, I know exactly, I'm so sorry.

3:37:54I'm one of those people that closes the top of her camera

3:37:58because I'm a little bit.

3:37:59It's okay, we can see and hear you clearly now.

3:38:04Thank you very much.

3:38:05Thank you.

3:38:06And yes, so go right ahead,

3:38:08you're our only delegation on this matter.

3:38:11I'll turn it over to you.

3:38:13Thank you so much.

3:38:14Good evening, Mayor Guthrie and Councillors,

3:38:17I thank you very much for allowing me to speak tonight.

3:38:20As Mayor Guthrie already said, my name is Dana Gilbert.

3:38:23I am the Managing Director of Real Estate Development

3:38:25at Forum Asset Management.

3:38:26Forum Asset Management is one of the largest,

3:38:29soon to be the largest owner, operator, developer

3:38:33and investor in student housing across the country.

3:38:35And so I'm here to delegate on the item that is 7.1

3:38:41in reference to 601 Scottsdale.

3:38:45It's regarding the decisions in our Official Plan Amendment

3:38:48and Zoning Bylaw Amendment applications

3:38:50to permit phase two of a student residence

3:38:53at 601 Scottsdale.

3:38:55You've already got a letter from our legal counsel,

3:38:58Wood Bull, that's dated on November 7th regarding this matter.

3:39:01And so I won't repeat everything within it,

3:39:04but I would like to highlight a few things.

3:39:06Although we have always appreciated the effort

3:39:09that staff has gone with us to write this report,

3:39:11everything that's within this report on our applications.

3:39:14At this point, I am asking you to not make a decision

3:39:17on these applications,

3:39:19on the basis that the student residence is exempt

3:39:22from the Planning Act as per Bill 185.

3:39:25We want to continue to work with staff collaboratively

3:39:29to complete technical details,

3:39:31obviously at the building permit drawing stage.

3:39:33And we are working, which has been articulated to the city

3:39:36to submit that building permit in November.

3:39:40And so the intention of Bill 185,

3:39:42our site is university owned land.

3:39:45We have a long-term ground lease

3:39:46with the University of Guelph

3:39:48that requires us to build student residence only

3:39:52for exclusively for University of Guelph students

3:39:55on this site.

3:39:57This is an extremely important project for us.

3:40:01And we're very proud of phase one that's on site right now.

3:40:04Phase one was completed in 2021.

3:40:07It comprises of 177 student beds,

3:40:09which is fully occupied by University of Guelph students.

3:40:13Phase two will expand the city's student housing supply

3:40:17by approximately 600 beds.

3:40:20The whole site will house approximately 800 beds of students

3:40:23and will provide more amenities to the tune

3:40:25of almost 5,000 square meters just for phase two.

3:40:29Phase one and phase two have amenities

3:40:32that will be accessible by all students

3:40:35on this student housing residence.

3:40:39In planning for phase two,

3:40:40we had extensive consultation

3:40:42that started actually approximately three years ago.

3:40:45We had two pre-application consultation meetings.

3:40:48We also did a pre-application submission,

3:40:50which was a full application.

3:40:52We had voluntary neighborhood consultation

3:40:55in December of 2023.

3:40:57And we also had a public meeting

3:40:59that had strong public support

3:41:02for student residence being located here

3:41:05for building student housing to alleviate the pressure

3:41:08on the student's traditional housing market.

3:41:10And so we had letters of support talking about the fact