Meeting be recessed until a time to be determined by clerks (12:07 p.m.).

3:58:51Then we're gonna discuss the ORHCD boundary

3:58:53and the current protections that are in place.

3:58:56Then we'll go through the structure

3:58:58of the Ontario Formity HCD planning guidelines

3:59:01and then touch on some future planning

3:59:03and heritage value considerations

3:59:06and finally we'll go to the consultation.

3:59:12So for the purpose of the HCD plan,

3:59:15so we have produced a draft HCD planning guidelines

3:59:18that if approved at a future meeting

3:59:21would be used to implement a potential HCD designation bylaw.

3:59:25The Ontario Reformatory HCD plan document

3:59:28includes policies and guidelines to manage change

3:59:31and conserve the distinct heritage character

3:59:33of the Ontario Reformatory HCD.

3:59:36The plan provides policy direction, strategies,

3:59:39design guidelines and conservation status standards

3:59:42that support and enhance the cultural heritage value

3:59:45or interest and unique character

3:59:47of the Ontario Reformatory HCD.

3:59:55Before council can pass a bylaw to designate an HCD area

4:00:00or to adopt an HCD plan,

4:00:02a statutory public meeting must be held

4:00:04to release the draft HCD plan

4:00:07and to give the opportunity for persons

4:00:10who may wish to raise objection

4:00:12or make oral representations or written submissions

4:00:15regarding the plan.

4:00:17So tonight, November 13th, 2024,

4:00:20this meeting of council functions as this statutory meeting

4:00:24required under section 41.1 of part five

4:00:28of the Ontario Heritage Act.

4:00:30Council is to hear public delegations

4:00:33on the draft HCD plan,

4:00:36ask questions for clarification and identify issues.

4:00:40The draft OR HCD planning guidelines are to be received

4:00:45and no decisions are to be made at this time.

4:00:49I would also add that following receipt,

4:00:51staff will consult with the public,

4:00:54First Nations, the Ontario Reformatory Community

4:00:57and Landowner Group and with Heritage Guelph.

4:01:06The OR HCD boundary, which you see on the slide

4:01:11in front of you was approved with the OR HCD study

4:01:15and it involves four property owners.

4:01:19That is the province of Ontario,

4:01:21owning 785 York Road, Brody Limited,

4:01:25owning 919 York Road, the city of Guelph,

4:01:29owning 80 Dunlop Drive, which does include

4:01:32what's known as the Hawar-Quarry area,

4:01:35and Fusion Homes that owns property west

4:01:38of the Irmaasa River up to,

4:01:41but not including the Guelph Junction Railway tracks.

4:01:49The current Reformatory Property,

4:01:51or what's often called the Reformatory Property,

4:01:54which is 785 York Road,

4:01:56it's currently designated under a Heritage Designation

4:02:00bylaw under part five of the Ontario Heritage Act,

4:02:04but it is important to understand

4:02:06that any heritage designation,

4:02:08whether under part four or part five,

4:02:11is not in full force and effect

4:02:13until the property that involves

4:02:15is no longer under provincial ownership.

4:02:23Individual property heritage designation bylaw 2021-20631

4:02:29for 785 York Road was approved by council in October of 2021,

4:02:33and the designation area includes,

4:02:36or the designation includes the area within 785 York Road

4:02:40that was identified by the province

4:02:42as a provincial heritage property

4:02:44of provincial significance in 2008.

4:02:48And that's shown on this map,

4:02:51785 York Road is the black dashed line,

4:02:56but the pink hatching overlay,

4:02:58which is a portion of that property,

4:03:00is the area of provincial significance.

4:03:06This, the HCD study produced this image,

4:03:11which shows the study area,

4:03:13and in this case, as the black dashed line.

4:03:16785 York Road, owned by the province,

4:03:19is within the solid red line.

4:03:21The pink dot hatching

4:03:22is the area of provincial significance,

4:03:25but also the image points out important built heritage resources

4:03:29that are outside of the area of provincial significance,

4:03:32and 785 York Road,

4:03:34but within the approved HCD boundary.

4:03:37Those are, it's difficult to see in this image possibly,

4:03:41but item or location number three is the North Gate.

4:03:46Number four is the Matthews Farmhouse.

4:03:49Number 12 is the Ontario Reformatory

4:03:52Wood and Tressel Railway Bridge.

4:03:5413 is the Reformatory Quarry area,

4:03:57and lastly, 14 is McQuillan's Boestring Bridge.

4:04:08Thank you.

4:04:09So when preparing the Ontario Reformatory HCD plan

4:04:12and guidelines, we did structure it

4:04:15in eight distinct sections.

4:04:17Section one provides an introduction

4:04:19and high level background on the phase one

4:04:22of the program, which is the ORHCD study,

4:04:25and gives an overview of the objectives for phase two,

4:04:28which is the HCD planning guidelines.

4:04:30Section two provides a summary of the study again

4:04:33and the plan process,

4:04:34and including a summary of the community engagement

4:04:37conducted to date, the legislative and policy framework,

4:04:40and an overview of the applicable policy

4:04:42and supporting guidelines

4:04:43as they relate to heritage conservation.

4:04:46Section three includes a statement

4:04:47of cultural heritage value or interest for the ORHCD,

4:04:51as it was presented in the study,

4:04:53and the character areas were described.

4:04:55Section four includes a statement

4:04:57of objectives and guiding principles.

4:05:01Section five includes recommended policies

4:05:04to meet the objectives and guiding principles.

4:05:07Section six is an overview of design guidelines

4:05:09for managing change with the ORHCD,

4:05:12and section seven includes planning

4:05:14and implementation measures

4:05:16to manage the cultural heritage landscapes

4:05:18and built heritage resources within the ORHCD.

4:05:22And finally, section eight includes recommendations

4:05:25to provide information on amendments

4:05:26to the official plan and comprehensive zoning bylaw

4:05:29to further support the objectives of the HCD plan,

4:05:32as well as any further reports that may be needed

4:05:35in the future, including periodic review.

4:05:41So just to touch on future planning

4:05:43versus heritage planning,

4:05:44so again, the goal of the HCD plan and guidelines,

4:05:49it describes the heritage value of the ORHCD,

4:05:53it identifies the physical heritage attributes

4:05:55that express that value.

4:05:57It provides targeted policies

4:05:59and to ensure that those physical attributes are maintained,

4:06:02and the HCD study and plan does not,

4:06:06sorry, the HCD plan does not make any recommendations

4:06:10regarding to specific development.

4:06:12So again, just wanting to stress

4:06:13that this is a guidance document,

4:06:15no specific development applications

4:06:17are addressed within the plan.

4:06:19The HCD plan and guidelines

4:06:21conserves the heritage value of the ORHCD,

4:06:23and that is the purpose of the document.

4:06:30The Guelph Innovation District Secondary Plan,

4:06:33that sets out official plan policies for the GID.

4:06:37It establishes a detailed planning framework,

4:06:42consisting of a vision, principles, and objectives,

4:06:45and policies and schedules to guide

4:06:48and regulate future development of the GID planning area.

4:06:52It's the GID that guides future use.

4:06:57Now, I just wanted to point out,

4:06:59in the title of this slide,

4:07:00and you saw it previously,

4:07:02that I want to point out that future planning

4:07:04is not meant to be versus,

4:07:06or in opposition to cultural heritage value.

4:07:10The ORHCD plan and the Guelph Innovation District Secondary

4:07:16Plan and the related block planning process

4:07:18are being designed to avoid having to choose

4:07:22one over the other in such a way

4:07:23that conserves the cultural heritage value

4:07:26of the Ontario Reformatory Lands.

4:07:33Section 11.2.6.3.1 of the GID secondary plan

4:07:39has already determined land use designations

4:07:43within the ORHCD boundary.

4:07:46These are shown in Schedule B on the left in this slide.

4:07:50Through the block plan process

4:07:52and the development proposals process,

4:07:54the mix of uses, zoning categories,

4:07:57and appropriate regulations will be established

4:08:00to permit and control uses within block plan area four,

4:08:05which is shown in purple on the right part of the slide,

4:08:09and which also includes the area designated

4:08:15for adaptive reuse.

4:08:18The purpose of a block plan is to establish

4:08:20an appropriate physical form of proposed development

4:08:23for the block plan area

4:08:24that demonstrates how the official plan policies

4:08:27for the GID secondary plan will be addressed.

4:08:31According to the secondary plan,

4:08:34the adaptive reuse designation,

4:08:37and that's the area in blue on Schedule B on the left,

4:08:42that the adaptive reuse designation

4:08:44includes provincially significant

4:08:46cultural heritage resources,

4:08:48where the conservation, rehabilitation, restoration,

4:08:52maintenance, and reuse of built heritage resources

4:08:56and cultural heritage landscapes

4:08:58will serve as the focal point of new development.

4:09:02The adaptive reuse designation permits a mix of uses,

4:09:05including institutional, educational,

4:09:08commercial, office, light industrial,

4:09:12and open space and park in a form

4:09:14that respects the existing built heritage form,

4:09:17cultural heritage landscape features,

4:09:20as well as the relationships

4:09:21between cultural heritage resources

4:09:23considered for adaptive reuse and redevelopment.

4:09:32Figure nine on page 38 of the draft

4:09:36Ontario Reformatory HCD plan identifies in yellow

4:09:41the core of the, what we're calling the core

4:09:44of the OR cultural heritage landscape.

4:09:47This includes the tree line drive from York Road entrance

4:09:51past the superintendent's residence

4:09:53to the Reformatory Administration Building

4:09:56and detention complex.

4:09:58New development and significant landscape alterations

4:10:02are not proposed in the OR CHL core.

4:10:07The OR HCD plan is recommending that residential use

4:10:11be added to the adaptive reuse area

4:10:14to introduce an option for intensification

4:10:17where deemed appropriate by the city.

4:10:24The green area is a portion of the North field

4:10:27and is recommended to have a four story building height limit

4:10:32or a low density character,

4:10:34which is subject to future development applications

4:10:37and public processes.

4:10:39We are not recommending any zoning changes

4:10:42with this heritage district planning guidelines.

4:10:46It's important to know that any future owner,

4:10:49and that is not the province of Ontario

4:10:51or the federal government,

4:10:54it's important to know that any future owner

4:10:56of land within block plan area four

4:10:58will be required to undergo the block plan process

4:11:01followed by a necessary official plan

4:11:03and zoning by law,

4:11:06or any amendments which are necessary

4:11:08to the official plan or zoning by law

4:11:10as part of the development application process.

4:11:14City policies require development applications

4:11:17to achieve the approval of environmental impact studies

4:11:21as well as cultural heritage resource impact assessments

4:11:25and conservation plans,

4:11:27both of which would include tree preservation plans.

4:11:37Following the statutory public meeting tonight,

4:11:40comments and feedback will be considered

4:11:42and may influence revisions to the plan's content

4:11:45before the final ORHCD plan is brought back to council

4:11:50for approval with a proposed bylaw

4:11:52to designate the ORHCD area

4:11:55and a related bylaw to adopt

4:11:58the accompanying ORHCD planning guidelines.

4:12:01During the month of December, 2024,

4:12:04Heritage Planning will offer consultation meetings

4:12:07regarding the draft ORHCD plan

4:12:10with First Nations, the community,

4:12:12and landowner group, and the Heritage Guelph Committee.

4:12:20And this concludes the presentation by staff

4:12:22and our consultant,

4:12:24and we would be happy to answer any questions

4:12:26that you may have.

4:12:30Thank you.

4:12:31As is typical, we'll just jump to the delegations

4:12:34after our five minute break,

4:12:35and then once the delegations are done,

4:12:38we can then have full some questions back to our staff.

4:12:41Thank you for the presentation.

4:12:43That's great.

4:12:44As I did say, I will take just literally a five minute break.

4:12:49Everyone will just run,

4:12:50could get some blood moving in this in a little bit.

4:12:53So let's come back here at 9.50.

4:12:55Five minute break, come back here at 9.50.

4:12:58And our first person will be Susan Ratcliffe.

4:13:02I see you Susan, you're up first, okay?

4:13:04Thank you.

4:19:58All right, this is your 30 second warning.

4:20:36If I could just have my colleagues online

4:20:38turn their cameras on,

4:20:40just so we can see for quorum purposes, that'd be great.

4:20:43Thank you.

4:20:44Leigh-Anne's like, hey.

4:20:47One, two, three, four, five.

4:20:49We're good.

4:20:51All right.

4:20:52Well, it looks like we, by default,

4:20:54no, we're gonna go over our allotted time.

4:20:57So the clerks have prepared a motion to jump up on the screen.

4:21:00Let's just get this out of the way.

4:21:03Yes or no, but it's being moved by Councillor Goller

4:21:06to extend past 11 and seconded by Councillor Richardson.

4:21:12And I only put that up there just because I'm doing math.

4:21:15If you look at the amount of delegations we have,

4:21:17and if every delegation takes 10 minutes,

4:21:19we're gonna go past there

4:21:20before we even start getting into this item.

4:21:22So I'm gonna call the vote, is anyone against?

4:21:27No one that passes, thank you.

4:21:30All right.

4:21:32Susan Ratcliffe, thank you for coming.

4:21:35And I'll turn it over to you.

4:21:37Go right ahead.

4:21:38Five minutes, so it'll be,

4:21:41I'll talk slowly to make it 10, okay?

4:21:44Is that all right?

4:21:45I just wanna say to Mayor Guthrie that I have pneumonia.

4:21:50I'm here because I wanna be here if I cough.

4:21:53Excuse me and do that, okay?

4:21:56Got everything here ready.

4:21:58So Mayor Guthrie and Councillors

4:22:01and all who care about the OR lands.

4:22:04Over the past decade, citizens of Guelph

4:22:08have spoken clearly and often about their vision

4:22:12for the future of the OR lands.

4:22:15In April 2009, 3,000 visitors lined up

4:22:19to tour the interior during Doors Open Guelph.

4:22:24On June 14th, 2021, 31 delegations

4:22:28and more than 200 letters to council

4:22:31asked for the Part Five designation

4:22:34as a protection for the lands.

4:22:37Council supported them with a unanimous vote

4:22:40in favor of the HCD study.

4:22:43On September 29th, 2002,

4:22:46more than 125 citizens attended public meeting number one

4:22:51and many more told their stories in a half your say.

4:22:56On January 20th, 2024,

4:22:58a petition was presented in parliament

4:23:01with 3,191 citizen signatures

4:23:06in favor of creating an urban park of the OR lands.

4:23:11In the past two years, 46 Guelph businesses

4:23:15and associations, including several indigenous groups

4:23:19and nations, pledged support of the urban park

4:23:22on the OR lands.

4:23:24Over the past 11 years,

4:23:27the York lands Green Hub has advocated for

4:23:30and educated about the OR lands

4:23:33as an environmental education center.

4:23:36And York lands members have of their own free will

4:23:40cleaned the trash for all those years

4:23:44and that's dedication.

4:23:46Even the mayor spoke strongly,

4:23:49saying on March 21st, 2023,

4:23:52it's a treasure in Guelph.

4:23:54It's something I wish I'd known more about much earlier.

4:23:58It's pretty fantastic.

4:24:01However, in this Ontario Reformatory HCD plan,

4:24:06those citizen voices have been heard

4:24:10but only in the statements of cultural value section.

4:24:14On page 30, public engagement with individuals and groups

4:24:19within Guelph and the broader region

4:24:21demonstrate a deep connection

4:24:23with the proposed Ontario Reformatory HCD

4:24:28and see it as a natural sanctuary.

4:24:31That's a quotation.

4:24:33On page 33, another quotation,

4:24:36the main objective of the Ontario Reformatory HCD plan

4:24:41is the conservation, management and long-term protection

4:24:46of the cultural heritage value

4:24:48and heritage attributes of the OR HCD.

4:24:53The major features form a cohesive landscape.

4:24:59The problem is that the policy statements,

4:25:03the design guidelines and the planning

4:25:06and implementation sections of this plan

4:25:09contradict that citizen vision.

4:25:13In these sections,

4:25:14instead of a cohesive heritage conservation district,

4:25:18we get statements about new development,

4:25:21possible demolitions,

4:25:23alterations to natural areas

4:25:26and use of the land for residential and commercial purposes.

4:25:31And the language used is full of weasel words

4:25:34and Nambi-Pambi verbs coached in strangely vague terms

4:25:39like we're possible, we're feasible,

4:25:42we're avoidance is not feasible.

4:25:45It is preferred that and development

4:25:48will seek to avoid all kinds of things.

4:25:52And three of the six character areas

4:25:55are allowed to be redeveloped.

4:25:58Statements that are totally contradictory

4:26:01to the assertions of protection

4:26:03of the unique and distinguishing patterns

4:26:06of the land and features of the built heritage.

4:26:11The citizen voices and the strong protective language

4:26:15in the designations have been totally ignored

4:26:19by promoting a different version of the OR lands.

4:26:23A vision of apartment buildings,

4:26:25commercial plazas, parking lots,

4:26:28altered landscapes and only two tiny yellow parks.

4:26:34Citizens of Guelph have spoken loudly

4:26:37and clearly over the years, we don't want this vision.

4:26:41HCD designation would provide huge benefits to the city.

4:26:46In preserving the landscape and buildings as they are,

4:26:50the OR would make a spectacular public heritage landscape

4:26:55for Guelph's growing population.

4:26:58The prison buildings would be a compelling draw

4:27:01for tourism, the extensive trail system

4:27:05would draw hikers, bikers and birders,

4:27:08the quarry would draw crowds for concerts

4:27:12and the ponds would be urban sanctuaries

4:27:15for kayakers and fishers.

4:27:19I ask that you review and change the last 40 pages

4:27:24of this plan to create an heritage conservation district

4:27:29that would truly be a place where the citizens

4:27:32and visitors could, as the new tourism image says,

4:27:38as visitors and citizens could gather here

4:27:42in our unique federal urban park

4:27:45in a heritage conservation district.

4:27:48Thank you.

4:27:50Thank you, Susan.

4:27:52No coughing, no nothing, you've got it all the way through.

4:27:54I'm going home to collapse.

4:27:58Is there any questions for this delegate?

4:28:01Seeing none and we hope you feel better, okay?

4:28:03Thank you.

4:28:04All right.

4:28:05Feel better now I'm done.

4:28:06Yeah, we hear you, we hear you.

4:28:10Nora Schoenler, Nora you're here and is Lynn Grist here?

4:28:15I gotta put my glasses on.

4:28:17Lynn, are you here?

4:28:18Oh, yeah, I do see you behind there, perfect.

4:28:21You're in the wings after Nora, okay?

4:28:27Welcome.

4:28:28Good evening, Mr. Mayor.

4:28:29Obviously not Nora.

4:28:31She sends,

4:28:33Noa sends her regrets that she needed to leave earlier

4:28:36this evening, asked if I would do her presentation

4:28:39for her if that's permissible.

4:28:41I absolutely will allow that.

4:28:43Just for the record, we just have to have your full name.

4:28:46That's all, right?

4:28:47My name is Connie Shaw.

4:28:48Thank you Connie.

4:28:49Yeah, everybody all means go ahead, okay?

4:28:51Thank you and for the information of council,

4:28:53I submitted documents for this meeting

4:28:57and open their bite for any questions thereafter.

4:29:00Okay, Nora says good evening to all.

4:29:03She has read the draft heritage conservation plan

4:29:06for the OR and believes that it is throwing something

4:29:10very precious away.

4:29:13She strongly supports Erin Catton's motions

4:29:16to support urban park wealth.

4:29:19Many of you know that she is a long time advocate

4:29:22for the OR heritage district for at least 15 years now.

4:29:27And won't take time to go over its many unique attributes

4:29:30since others will also address them.

4:29:34But wealth citizens need you to support and protect

4:29:38this place as a national urban park

4:29:41since their requirements fit totally for its conservation

4:29:45and heritage education as a natural green quarter.

4:29:50It is also critical for our environmental resilience

4:29:53to climate, chaotic events and support for biodiversity.

4:30:00Nora returned yesterday from a family event

4:30:04in Glasgow, Scotland and wants to share with you

4:30:07her thoughts on a similar site in that really old city

4:30:11of stone buildings and cobbled streets.

4:30:16We noted at their tour office that they had

4:30:19an urban country park which is 15 minutes

4:30:22by public transit from the city center

4:30:25right to the entrance of the park.

4:30:28Pollock Park is a little over 300 acres left to the city

4:30:33many years ago by the Maxwell family

4:30:36and includes a small river, woodland trails,

4:30:39stone walls and household buildings and gardens.

4:30:44She spent four hours there on a cool cloudy Thursday

4:30:48walking and enjoying the late autumn trees,

4:30:51trails and woodland walks, bridges and animal life.

4:30:56Interpretive signs shared past and current details

4:30:59of the site.

4:31:01It is clearly a tourist magnet with a cafe and washrooms

4:31:06and a building that houses a collection of art.

4:31:10While there, she saw many others enjoying it.

4:31:14People with walkers, mums and strollers,

4:31:17daycare children, outings, picnicers

4:31:20and students orienteering.

4:31:23Also seniors enjoying the calm and the beauty

4:31:27just as many have been doing at the Ontario Reformatory

4:31:31over the past many years.

4:31:35There is a rich conservation program of education

4:31:39that encourages people from all over the world.

4:31:44This site contributes to the health and prosperity

4:31:47of the city in many ways.

4:31:50They grow food in the greenhouse and outdoors

4:31:53which produce that is harvested for food banks

4:31:58and local charities.

4:32:00There is a forest ranger on the site daily

4:32:03and other employees.

4:32:05The train and bus stop are two minutes away

4:32:08and there is a small EV shuttle bus

4:32:11from the entrance to the buildings if needed.

4:32:15It is all accessible and free to the public

4:32:19unless you wish to bring car and use a parking place.

4:32:23Most people walk there and arrived by public transit.

4:32:28This site contributes to the health and prosperity

4:32:31of Glasgow in a unique way.

4:32:35The parallels to our growth, opportunity

4:32:39to conserve the OR lands and its built features

4:32:43for future generations is clear.

4:32:47I strongly recommend that you as leaders in our community

4:32:51take note of the importance of this site

4:32:54for the future generations as well as

4:32:57as a record of the past.

4:33:00I appeal to you to respect our heritage

4:33:03which includes the deep indigenous history here.

4:33:07The OR native sons program had a Canada wide influence

4:33:12on many people inside and outside

4:33:16the reform institutions of the last century.

4:33:20Please note the letter to staffer Krista Wolke

4:33:24from the Ministry of Infrastructure Ontario in 2021,

4:33:30supporting the historical importance of this landmark

4:33:33heritage site and stressing that protecting it as such

4:33:39would be the highest and best use

4:33:41of this unique public place.

4:33:45This draft must be sent back to city staff

4:33:48who have worked tirelessly in the past

4:33:51on a prior draft plan that could be used to fit

4:33:54with national urban park objectives.

4:33:58And she says thank you for the commitment

4:34:00to the betterment of our city.

4:34:04And thank you very much.

4:34:06And you can let her know that you did a great job

4:34:08in her behalf.

4:34:10Thank you.

4:34:11We'll tell her to.

4:34:12Is there any questions at all?

4:34:15Now, councillor Allt again, you're asking questions

4:34:20to a delegate that read something on behalf

4:34:22of a different delegate that's not here.

4:34:23So just to be aware of that.

4:34:25That is correct.

4:34:26And I actually am quite surprised that Ms. Shaw is here

4:34:30but the reason I'm asking you is that the man

4:34:33who serves me, she was the chaplain

4:34:36at the correctional center.

4:34:38And I just have two questions from the chaplain's perspective.

4:34:42Why is this important to you?

4:34:44And what information can you provide

4:34:46about the heritage significance of the native suns?

4:34:51Double question.

4:34:54The importance of the place at this time

4:34:57is as a heritage designation of the history of the area,

4:35:03the correctional center and the lands

4:35:05is both extremely important at this time.

4:35:09The committee and people have done really good research

4:35:13and accumulation of information.

4:35:15My concern is that the place is deteriorating rapidly,

4:35:20both buildings and land, and that we need to take

4:35:23some action to preserve that for future generations,

4:35:27preserve the history and the lands.

4:35:30The question related to the native suns goes back

4:35:33to about the mid 1970s when a group of inmates,

4:35:38indigenous inmates asked to have their own little

4:35:41support group gathering where they could learn

4:35:44of their culture and practice their spirituality.

4:35:48Through the chaplain and the action of the inmates,

4:35:50a group was formed called the native suns

4:35:53and across the years from the 70s into the 80s,

4:35:57we managed with the cooperation and assistance

4:36:00of the administration to establish a very solid program

4:36:05of continuous meetings, a visitation of elders,

4:36:09of practice of indigenous ceremonies, sweat lodge,

4:36:14and quite a few of the others, powwows and gatherings.

4:36:18We were the first within the province,

4:36:20in the provincial institutions to have a well

4:36:24and entirely functioning native suns program.

4:36:28The things that we were able to do thanks to elders,

4:36:32visitors, native liaisons from the various native centers,

4:36:36the things that we were able to do set a benchmark

4:36:39for other institutions in the province who began

4:36:42to be able to establish the same kinds of things.

4:36:46Thank you.

4:36:47One last one then, in your opinion,

4:36:48is this valuable in terms of wealth,

4:36:51contribution to truth and reconciliation?

4:36:54Oh, most definitely, most definitely.

4:36:58The heritage of the indigenous people goes back

4:37:00on the lands many thousands, hundreds of years.

4:37:04Valuable in that, the center housed a significant portion

4:37:09of indigenous inmates.

4:37:11Our penal system has a higher ratio of indigenous inmates.

4:37:17Why are they there?

4:37:19I think you would know, I don't need to articulate

4:37:21the whole history of our indigenous peoples

4:37:24and how they have been treated within our lands.

4:37:27So by creating a space that recognizes what happened there,

4:37:32that there was a sweat lodge, that there were powwows,

4:37:35that we had drumming, that we connected with Mother Earth,

4:37:38we connected with the creator there.

4:37:40That bringing that into Guelph and bringing that soon

4:37:45moves the reconciliation movement and issues forward

4:37:51substantially and Guelph would be well noted for doing that

4:37:56in a very concrete way on the lands there.

4:37:59Thank you.

4:38:01Thank you.

4:38:02Thank you, Councillor Allt.

4:38:03Is there any other questions at all for this delegate?

4:38:07Seeing none, and thank you so much.

4:38:08Thank you.

4:38:11All right, Lynn.

4:38:14I see you there, thank you very much for being here.

4:38:18And, Ron, I think I saw you as well.

4:38:21Hi, Ron, perfect.

4:38:44Thank you, can you hear me?

4:38:47Okay, for those of you who don't know me,

4:38:49my name is Lynn Grist and I'm just a resident of Guelph,

4:38:53no particular, no particular skill sets.

4:39:00I was one of more than 200 people who delegated

4:39:05and wrote letters to the then council in 2021

4:39:10that directed city staff to complete the research

4:39:14for a part five heritage designation for the Ontario,

4:39:20excuse me, for the Ontario Formatory Cultural Landscape.

4:39:26And I'm very grateful to them.

4:39:27I'm particularly grateful to Councillor Downer

4:39:30who ensured that Council set aside funds for that,

4:39:34for consultants to complete the work

4:39:36as the cultural staff were too busy with other work

4:39:39at that time to take it on.

4:39:41So thank you very much for that.

4:39:45I have read the reports of the consultants

4:39:49and their studies of the ORL lands.

4:39:52They provided us with publicly

4:39:54with both an interim and a final report

4:39:58and they were accessible to us.

4:39:59And I'm very grateful for that.

4:40:02We did, after all, pay for them with our taxes.

4:40:04So it was great to have the reports.

4:40:07As a reminder to my fellow residents, however,

4:40:11who are not familiar with part five heritage designation,

4:40:17I'd like to sort of remind us that it's concerned

4:40:20with preserving cultural heritage value,

4:40:25communities heritage conservation objectives,

4:40:30the relationships between our collective memory

4:40:34and spaces and places,

4:40:37and the design of on future development

4:40:41of structures and landscape features.

4:40:44So it's pretty specific.

4:40:45So we really wanted when we came to Council in 2021

4:40:50to tell you strongly that we wanted you to protect this.

4:40:55I think others will speak to the history

4:40:58of what for me is a wonderful landscape.

4:41:03But it was and originally a meeting place

4:41:07for the Huron, for the Wendat,

4:41:10and many other indigenous peoples.

4:41:13Want to remind people of the building

4:41:15of the Ontario Reformatory itself,

4:41:18which began with the vision in 1905 of William Hannah

4:41:24as a place to reform and to rehabilitate

4:41:28rather than punish.

4:41:30That was in Guelph and it was a first for Ontario.

4:41:35The design of the landscape itself is based

4:41:38on something called the city's beautiful

4:41:42and Bo's art style.

4:41:45It's time, I want to remind people

4:41:48that it had a time as a rehabilitation hospital

4:41:52for World One veterans.

4:41:54It was called the Speedwell Military Hospital.

4:41:58For many years when it was a reformaty,

4:42:01it was also a working farm feeding itself

4:42:05and institutions all around it,

4:42:08teaching inmate skills that would help them find employment

4:42:13when they left the reformatory.

4:42:16The stunning indigenous paintings by Intimates,

4:42:21which are sadly now only retained for us in photographs

4:42:25because the province chose to paint over them.

4:42:30I have to say, I was really disappointed

4:42:35that the staff summary of the report of WSP to council

4:42:40said so little about the value of the cultural landscape.

4:42:46After all, that is what WSP report was about.

4:42:50We already have part four heritage status

4:42:54for the buildings on the site.

4:42:55It is the landscape that the public wanted to protect

4:43:00when it came to council in June, 2021,

4:43:04in such large numbers.

4:43:08As council members already know,

4:43:11we are a community that has a parkland deficit

4:43:16and as a place is to grow,

4:43:18we are going to need much more parkland

4:43:22to meet even the minimal amounts of parkland

4:43:25set out in our planning documents.

4:43:28So I asked council to seize this opportunity

4:43:33to ensure that the OR landscape is preserved

4:43:37by ensuring that it has part five heritage protection.

4:43:44There was a woman called Irene Renata-Caddock

4:43:46who I don't know, but she wrote in the Guelph Mercury

4:43:49in 2006 of a vision to preserve the former reformatory lands

4:43:55as a park.

4:43:56She says it much more elegantly and clearly

4:43:59than I ever could.

4:44:01Here's what she said.

4:44:03Why do I want this wonderful landscape preserved

4:44:07in public hands?

4:44:09It's pretty personal.

4:44:11I have children and grandchildren

4:44:13and I want them and everyone else's grandchildren

4:44:16to be able to enjoy the wonderful visitors

4:44:19that I have been able to walk

4:44:21and to know where they have come from.

4:44:23The OR lands are not just a Guelph treasure,

4:44:27they are a provincial treasure.

4:44:30And with care and imagination,

4:44:34could become a huge tourist draw for our city

4:44:38while providing us with a wonderful new urban park

4:44:42at a time when our city is growing exponentially.

4:44:45At that time, she said 200,000 people by 2051,

4:44:50so she was actually quite right.

4:44:52And all those people will need open spaces for recreation

4:44:56and to provide open land to help us to continue

4:44:59to rely on groundwater for us all

4:45:02and of our drinking water needs.

4:45:05And I'd like to finish by,

4:45:09I don't have to remind council of this

4:45:10because you already know,

4:45:12but people keep talking about this as provincial land.

4:45:16The province owns the land.

4:45:19To my fellow colleagues here in residence in Guelph,

4:45:24I want to remind them that the province

4:45:26is actually the steward of the lands.

4:45:31We, the people of Ontario, all of us in this room,

4:45:35all of us who live in Ontario own that land.

4:45:40The province has it as a steward

4:45:43and they have it on behalf of all Ontario residents.

4:45:47They don't have it on behalf of just one group,

4:45:50they have it on behalf of everybody.

4:45:52So thank you for letting me share that with you

4:45:56and I will finish with my last thing,

4:45:59which is very personal.

4:46:01There are some lakes that were actually built

4:46:06when the reformatory began.

4:46:10They dug them out sometime between 1905 and 1915

4:46:14and now they're lakes and there are fish in them

4:46:18and people fish in them quite regularly.

4:46:21And that's where I taught my grandson

4:46:24who lives in a big city, never gets to see that kind of stuff.

4:46:29That's where I taught him to fish

4:46:31and I actually want that for everybody's grandchildren.

4:46:35So thank you for hearing me.

4:46:37Thank you.

4:46:38Any questions for this delegate?

4:46:41There is none, thank you very much.

4:46:44Ron East is here coming up and Brian Escarrott,

4:46:48I see you coming down in the wings there.

4:46:50So come on up, Ron, when you can

4:47:00and start whenever you're ready.

4:47:04Thank you.

4:47:09Mayor Guthrie, city councilors,

4:47:13fellow citizens of Guelph,

4:47:17I want to thank you for the opportunity

4:47:19to speak to you this evening.

4:47:21First of all, I would like to express my hearty disagreement

4:47:26with your senior planners presentation this evening.

4:47:33To suggest that the Guelph Innovation District plan

4:47:37overrides any possible HCD plan is utter nonsense.

4:47:44It's rubbish.

4:47:46If you accept-

4:47:47No, nope, not gonna happen, nope, not gonna happen.

4:47:50Okay, in my view.

4:47:52Nope, I'm gonna ask you to apologize.

4:47:54Okay, I apologize for the-

4:47:56You will not-

4:47:57But I disagree with him.

4:47:59And I'm not finished.

4:48:00I will stop your time.

4:48:02I'm gonna say it right now.

4:48:03I will not allow anybody in these chambers

4:48:06to belittle our professional staff ever.

4:48:10So please don't ever do that.

4:48:12And I'll start the time.

4:48:14Thank you for apologizing and I can continue.

4:48:16Okay, so I disagree because if you in fact approve

4:48:22the HCD plan, it will automatically revise

4:48:27the Guelph Innovation District plan

4:48:31for that part of the city.

4:48:34So it's fact, it's not a problem at all.

4:48:39So I first of all would like to also express my hearty support

4:48:45and concurrence with previous speakers

4:48:49and to thank them for presenting this evening.

4:48:54So I want to discuss the study conducted by WSP

4:49:10on the designation of the Ontario Reformatory Lands

4:49:13as a part five Ontario Heritage District

4:49:17under the Ontario Heritage Act.

4:49:21So this is part two of the original process

4:49:24that we've been doing.

4:49:27After a perusal of the study,

4:49:29I find the work both thorough and well researched.

4:49:34The analysis, contextual context,

4:49:37historical research and current rationale

4:49:40are all professionally accomplished

4:49:42and deserving of our appreciation.

4:49:47The recommendations are in keeping

4:49:49with our previous responses on this subject

4:49:52and others have already talked about that.

4:49:55I therefore recommend heartily that you accept,

4:50:00receive the study as is

4:50:04and your intent to move expeditiously to a next phase.

4:50:11We are all aware of the mercurial element

4:50:14in current provincial government policy.

4:50:17So completing the study and designation

4:50:20is particularly important now.

4:50:24So I want to thank you for your consideration

4:50:26and I'd like to just express a personal view.

4:50:34The other day I was at Riverside Park

4:50:36and Riverside Park is an absolutely delightful park

4:50:39and an asset to the city

4:50:42and I want you to imagine for a moment

4:50:44what a Yorklands park would be like

4:50:49and to use your imagination just to see

4:50:53how it could be an incredible asset to the city,

4:50:58even more than Riverside Park.

4:51:02It has so many elements that are so fantastic

4:51:06and it needs to be preserved.

4:51:09I believe that the original people

4:51:14that created the reformatory intended

4:51:18the land to be used for this purpose,

4:51:22that it was put together,

4:51:25I mean the way you can see it when you're there,

4:51:29how it has been landscaped and set up to be a park.

4:51:35I remember when it was the reformatory

4:51:38and I was a child and went,

4:51:40because my father actually was

4:51:44an electrical consultant with the reformatory

4:51:49and so I went with him sometimes

4:51:53and it was a place where people had

4:51:57their wedding pictures taken there.

4:52:00There were people fishing in the stream along the edge.

4:52:03It was always intended to be a park

4:52:09and I really believe that if you have some imagination now,

4:52:15you can imagine an amazing future for everyone in Guelph.

4:52:21Thank you.

4:52:23Thank you for your presentation.

4:52:25Is there any questions for this delegate?

4:52:28Seeing none, thank you.

4:52:30Brian, you are right in the front row.

4:52:32Come on up and Morgan, Morgan Dandy again

4:52:35is gonna be in the wings.

4:52:38Brian, welcome and when the mic goes on there

4:52:40and when you're ready, go right ahead.

4:52:42Thank you.

4:52:42Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

4:52:44Thank you, Councillors.

4:52:44Thank you for this opportunity to speak tonight.

4:52:48This is gonna be a little ad hoc.

4:52:50I threw out my original designation

4:52:52for my delegation at five PM today and rewrote it

4:52:55and even tonight, even through the evening,

4:52:58I've been rewriting it and I've been rewriting it

4:53:00in my head as I got up here.

4:53:03There are so many elements to this property

4:53:06that are so spectacularly special, unique.

4:53:12There are so many reasons for this property

4:53:15to be protected to the fullest extent possible,

4:53:20not only in terms of the actual mechanisms of protection,

4:53:24but for the actual land, the acreage protected.

4:53:29I'm gonna go to my notes and when I threw out my designation,

4:53:34I was a little disappointed

4:53:35because I had some pretty good points in there.

4:53:38There were some problems with the report.

4:53:42There were misidentified heritage assets.

4:53:47Tressel Bridge was labeled as McClellan's farmhouse.

4:53:51There were not pagination errors,

4:53:53but sub-claws that were misnumbered.

4:53:55There were multiple clause threes in one section.

4:54:01There were errors of grammar that made sentences

4:54:04utterly meaningless.

4:54:05Actually, you couldn't really determine

4:54:07what the meaning of the sentence was intended to be.

4:54:10So that was a problem,

4:54:11but I'm not addressing those line by line in this context.

4:54:15I did wonder why the staff report came

4:54:17from planning, building, engineering, and environment,

4:54:20but not also from culture, recreation,

4:54:23economic development, or parks.

4:54:26I would have expected and anticipated

4:54:28and wanted those departments to be weighing in

4:54:31on a plan of such magnitude.

4:54:34I reflected on the passive language and on phrases

4:54:37that permitted wholesale changes

4:54:39to currently protected assets

4:54:40without notice, consultation, or oversight.

4:54:44And you will hear about those things from others tonight,

4:54:46and that was one of the reasons

4:54:47because I knew other people were gonna be speaking

4:54:49to those things that I thought,

4:54:49well, I can let some of the other folks

4:54:52do the heavy lifting on that.

4:54:54Because one of the things we lose track of

4:54:56when we're talking about the details is about the why.

4:55:01And it's not just about the spectacular landscapes

4:55:04and the deep history.

4:55:07Council over the last four days, five days,

4:55:10I mean, not only about this topic,

4:55:13you guys have been deluged with emails on a lot of topics.

4:55:17And I'm sure you haven't been able to keep up

4:55:18with everything.

4:55:20I want to pull a couple of quotes on emails

4:55:22that I was CC'd on that are specific

4:55:26not to the Urban Park project,

4:55:28because that's not what we're talking about here,

4:55:30but are talking about the conservation of the landscape

4:55:33and the conservation plan.

4:55:36One of the emails I received was from a woman in Mary Ann Kohl.

4:55:40And she wrote, I'm writing to you

4:55:41because we are trying to preserve

4:55:42the Friendship Hall in Guelph,

4:55:44as it has a historical mural remembering five men

4:55:47that lost their lives in the Stratford Jailfire

4:55:50on December 18th, 1976.

4:55:53My brother Fred was one of the five people who died.

4:55:57I will remember that day as long as I live.

4:56:00So when we talk about a conservation plan

4:56:03for this land and for these buildings,

4:56:05these are the stories that remind us

4:56:07of why a strong conservation plan is necessary.

4:56:11Cliff Summers, a former native son who was incarcerated here,

4:56:14wrote to Council today.

4:56:16And since it, again, it wasn't specific

4:56:17to the conservation plan, I won't quote from his letter,

4:56:21but I will say that a strong conservation plan

4:56:24reflects a step toward what Mr. Summers calls

4:56:27reconcile action.

4:56:29It takes the place of the empty words of reconciliation,

4:56:34which is a very hotly contested word

4:56:37in the indigenous community,

4:56:39and replaces it with action.

4:56:44At five p.m. today, I received another email,

4:56:47and this was the one that caused me

4:56:48to sort of throw everything else out

4:56:50and say, this is what I want to talk about.

4:56:53And this is the quote,

4:56:55there are so many reasons that lands such as this

4:56:58are an important resource to everyone.

4:57:01These areas protect forests, wetlands,

4:57:03plant and animal life.

4:57:05They also sustain and strengthen indigenous knowledge

4:57:07and value systems.

4:57:09There is strong evidence that they also help

4:57:11to strengthen our resilience to climate change.

4:57:15And financially, they benefit diversity to local economics.

4:57:21On a personal note, the artwork inside the chapel

4:57:25has a very deep personal meaning to me.

4:57:29There is a mural commemorating the death of five inmates

4:57:31that died in the fire in Stratford Jail in 1976.

4:57:36One of these inmates was my father, Fred Cole.

4:57:39I will never get the chance to meet him or hug him

4:57:42or even shake his hand.

4:57:45What I do have left is a mural created by another inmate

4:57:49that was made in respect and remembrance

4:57:51of the men who died needlessly that day.

4:57:55What's really amazing about that letter

4:57:58is that despite her profound personal connection

4:58:02to the land and to the place and to the mural

4:58:04and to the chapel, she actually put the community values first,

4:58:09the community needs, the reasons that are important

4:58:12for protecting this land came first from this person

4:58:15who had such a significant loss.

4:58:18I think that's amazing.

4:58:21The last excerpt I'm going to read

4:58:23goes back to the first email reference today.

4:58:26It was also from Marianne Cole.

4:58:29And she writes, because of two articles written

4:58:31about preserving the mural,

4:58:34I discovered that my brother had a daughter

4:58:35that was given up for adoption before he died.

4:58:38And through the help of the people

4:58:39in the Urban Park development,

4:58:41we found each other after 47 years.

4:58:45It is truly a miracle.

4:58:47And it would be another one

4:58:48if this building and mural could be saved.

4:58:52Urban Park Guelph recognizes that the conservation plan

4:58:55is not going to speak specifically to the mural.

4:58:57That would be something covered under a part four designation.

4:59:00This is a building that's not protected.

4:59:02It is listed only.

4:59:05But a strong conservation plan creates an envelope

4:59:11that then we can entertain more part four designations.

4:59:15There are a number of listed properties,

4:59:18sorry, listed features and buildings on this property

4:59:21that still don't have full heritage protection.

4:59:24And I will also point out that the native sun's room,

4:59:27where there are four indigenous murals,

4:59:29has no protections whatsoever.

4:59:34We recognize that this was a place of pain and suffering

4:59:38for a lot of people.

4:59:39It was a prison after all.

4:59:41But it was also a place of hope, optimism and promise.

4:59:46Let's do everything we can.

4:59:48Let's do absolutely everything we can

4:59:51to fulfill the promise and opportunity we have before us.

4:59:55And when we've done everything,

4:59:58let's do just a little bit more.

5:00:00Thank you.

5:00:02Thank you, Brian.

5:00:03Is there any questions?

5:00:04Councillor Goller and then Holt.

5:00:07Thank you for your worship to Mr. Scarrett.

5:00:09Thank you so much for your presentation.

5:00:10Thank you.

5:00:12I've received many of the same emails that you referenced.

5:00:16A few of them talk about moving ahead

5:00:18and approving the plan as presented today

5:00:21so that we can move ahead with the designation.

5:00:23Will others who are saying send it back

5:00:25and do a major revision from your perspective?

5:00:30Is there a danger in delaying to do extensive reviews?

5:00:36Or is there a case for just approving the plan now

5:00:40for the sake of the protection of the lands?

5:00:42It's a good question.

5:00:43And in fact, and I would actually think staff

5:00:45would probably agree with me on this one.

5:00:47This is a draft plan and sending it back for review

5:00:51is actually the intent of this meeting.

5:00:53So it won't actually create a delay.

5:00:56This is an opportunity for the public and for council

5:01:01to start raising questions and raising red flags.

5:01:04This is the opposite of processes

5:01:06we've gone through in the past

5:01:08where we come up with a final plan and people go,

5:01:11oh, we don't like this final plan.

5:01:13This is where we are able, Urban Park,

5:01:15Well for the public to notify council, to notify staff,

5:01:19hey, we've got some serious problems here.

5:01:22This plan as it's written,

5:01:24Urban Park, Wolf would suggest that no plan is better

5:01:29than the plan as it is now.

5:01:30Okay, okay.

5:01:31Thank you for that.

5:01:32I appreciate it.

5:01:33Thank you, worship.

5:01:34Thank you.

5:01:35Alt and then a work.

5:01:38Thank you very much, Mayor Duthrie.

5:01:39Through you to Mr. Scarrett.

5:01:42Mr. Scarrett, thank you for your presentation.

5:01:45Quick question.

5:01:46I read in your letter, your submission

5:01:48that Urban Park, Well has requested standing

5:01:51in the community and stakeholder group.

5:01:53And I was wondering, first of all, has that been granted?

5:01:56And secondly, I think you touched on this.

5:01:59What merit is there to be given that standing

5:02:02for a group like Urban Park, Well?

5:02:07So the first answer is that we have not had been given standing

5:02:11in the community and landowner group.

5:02:14The merit would be that that provides a direct channel

5:02:20feedback from Urban Park, Well

5:02:21and the other community stakeholders and landowners

5:02:26to communicate directly with city staff.

5:02:30My understanding from the staff report

5:02:35is that the only other engagement that's going to happen

5:02:40is with First Nations and Heritage Wealth.

5:02:43Although Stephen made a reference to public engagement,

5:02:48I don't know what that would be though.

5:02:53Is there particular expertise that,

5:02:55I believe you're part of Urban Park, Well, I gathered.

5:02:58Is there particular expertise that Urban Park, Well has

5:03:02that the city and studying this might benefit from considering?

5:03:09Certainly Urban Park, Well has got a depth of the history here.

5:03:12I mean, and I know WSP has drilled down on that

5:03:16somewhat particularly through the original study.

5:03:22There are a couple of us on Heritage Wealth, sorry.

5:03:28I've gone back three years.

5:03:31There are a couple of us on Urban Park Wealth

5:03:33who are former members of Heritage Wealth.

5:03:35So we've had some depth of experience with Heritage Files.

5:03:42There is a planner on the committee with our group.

5:03:47We have resources that we have available to draw on.

5:03:51And we've also hired our own Heritage Consultant

5:03:54to give us feedback on this plan.

5:03:58Thank you very much.

5:04:01Ororok, then Richardson.

5:04:04Thanks, Margarit, through you too, Mr. Scarrett.

5:04:08So you said it would be better to have no plan than this plan.

5:04:15So what is it that you would want to see in the plan?

5:04:19I mean, there's a qualified people

5:04:21who have other documentation.

5:04:23So what is it that you would want to see?

5:04:25What would a good plan look like?

5:04:27Well, the first thing I would say, I mean, again,

5:04:30this isn't the avenue probably for a line by line

5:04:33dissection of the 120 pages.

5:04:37And I won't get into the sort of the cosmetic problems

5:04:41with the pagination and everything else.

5:04:44A good plan would eliminate,

5:04:49what's somebody else called, weasel words,

5:04:50but I'll say passive language.

5:04:52And in fact, that was something that Heritage Guelph asked

5:04:56would be eliminated.

5:04:57Heritage Guelph asked to eliminate the passive language

5:05:00that was proposed.

5:05:01Words like shall, should, or should not shall,

5:05:04seek to, should, could, recommend is littered throughout.

5:05:09There are very few circumstances where it says,

5:05:13require.

5:05:16I would say that a lot of the heavy lifting

5:05:19that should be done by a conservation plan

5:05:22is being deferred to other vehicles,

5:05:24whether it's the GID secondary plan, the official plan,

5:05:28even the city tree bylaw.

5:05:30There's references here that say,

5:05:32oh, we're not gonna put trees in the conservation plan.

5:05:35Well, there's some passing references,

5:05:37but trees will fall under the tree bylaw.

5:05:40And frankly, we don't even know what the tree bylaw

5:05:44is going to look like because it's being reviewed.

5:05:47And that tree bylaw will be changed frequently

5:05:51because it's designed for our urban landscape,

5:05:54not for the conservation district.

5:05:57So we need a document that's specific to this landscape

5:06:04and not deferring to other mechanisms that the city has

5:06:10for other regions.

5:06:12Okay, thank you.

5:06:13And through you, America, through you, Mr. Skirret,

5:06:15are you opposed to any of the proposed land uses?

5:06:21So we've got lots of letters that talk about

5:06:24the strength of the language,

5:06:25but in a more substantive way,

5:06:28what are the big blogs that we need to change?

5:06:31I haven't heard any proposed land uses,

5:06:34and I think that was something else

5:06:35that staff said at the very beginning,

5:06:36was that there were no proposals specific to this.

5:06:40This is sort of offering some zoning

5:06:43that Mayor may not already exist,

5:06:47but I haven't heard, I don't see in the document,

5:06:50a specific proposed land use.

5:06:54Okay, thanks.

5:06:58Thank you, Richardson, please.

5:07:00Thank you, and through the Mayor too, Mr. Skirret,

5:07:03I'll tell you, I do have a personal connection

5:07:05to the history of these lands as well,

5:07:07because my father-in-law had a very, very long career

5:07:09as the assistant superintendent of the Ontario.

5:07:12Oh, whoa, we have to talk.

5:07:15I have some stories from a different side,

5:07:17but so my question would be,

5:07:18if we do amend the plan with,

5:07:22as you suggested, with some stronger language,

5:07:25would your intent be to conserve the heritage value

5:07:29by preventing or limiting any change to the property?

5:07:34No, no, that's, you know,

5:07:37the intent is to create avenues for oversight.

5:07:42So for instance, there's one clause,

5:07:44and I don't have it in front of me,

5:07:46that says, I think it's in reference to waterways,

5:07:51and it suggests that, it actually says outright,

5:07:55that if deemed to be an improvement,

5:08:00we can change the waterways without a heritage permit.

5:08:04So the problem with that, and this also goes to the question

5:08:08that Councillor O'Rourke asked,

5:08:10that creates a situation where we have no oversight whatsoever.

5:08:14There's no oversight, there's no questioning,

5:08:16there's no governance, there's no notification to the city,

5:08:19to the citizens, that something is happening

5:08:23that is significant to all of us.

5:08:25So that's another element of the plan

5:08:26that actually has to be really strengthened,

5:08:30that we want to see oversight everywhere,

5:08:33but it doesn't mean that there can't be change.

5:08:36Everything gets governed by council ultimately,

5:08:40and everything, we can write in anything we want

5:08:43to a part four or a part five,

5:08:45and council can always reverse that.

5:08:49And that's important too, we're not freezing something in time,

5:08:53we are just creating mechanisms for oversight and governance,

5:08:56and I would suggest that the First Nations

5:08:59would also agree that that's also part of,

5:09:01I shouldn't speak for them, I won't say,

5:09:03I retract that.

5:09:08Seeing nothing further, I appreciate your delegation.

5:09:11Terrific, thank you.

5:09:13And Morgan Dandy is gonna come up next,

5:09:15and in the wings, actually by video,

5:09:19will be Lynn Vestari.

5:09:41I'm just here as me this time.

5:09:47Mayor, council staff, like Ms. Grist,

5:09:50I also participated in the part five designation

5:09:53request to council.

5:09:56Tonight, I'm asking that you do what's necessary

5:09:59to please make sure that the things that give the feel

5:10:02to the former reformatory lands,

5:10:05the unique feel that they have remains.

5:10:09And to me, those things include the walls,

5:10:12and the ponds, and the trails,

5:10:15and the glorious natural stone amphitheater.

5:10:20And it also includes honoring the lived history of the lands,

5:10:25which means telling the stories of the native sons

5:10:29and listening to the wishes and recommendations

5:10:34of indigenous men who were incarcerated there.

5:10:38The ORHCD must center the voices of those men

5:10:44for whom incarceration in Guelph was the path

5:10:49to their personal reconciliation

5:10:54with their lost cultures,

5:10:57and create a bridge to truth and reconciling action

5:11:02in Tedina Doney and for everyone across the country.

5:11:09When we were debating the correct location

5:11:11for the community park in the Claremont B secondary plan,

5:11:15I mentioned the foresight our ancestors had

5:11:18over 100 years ago,

5:11:21when they designated Riverside and Exhibition Parks

5:11:26to be what they are today.

5:11:28Please have the foresight of your forerunners

5:11:31around the horseshoe and protect these amazing features

5:11:36for the future.

5:11:40Thank you, Morgan.

5:11:41Any questions for this delegation at all?

5:11:45Seeing none, thank you very much.

5:11:52Lynn Bistari is going to join us by video, I believe.

5:11:58And is Alex Smith in the room?

5:12:02Okay, you're in the wings, Alex.

5:12:11Sorry, I don't know how to turn my camera on.

5:12:15Okay, that's okay.

5:12:16We can hear you perfectly clear.

5:12:18Oh, here it is.

5:12:19Okay, nevermind.

5:12:20You might have found it.

5:12:24Hi.

5:12:25Yeah, I'll turn it over to you.

5:12:27You go right ahead.

5:12:28Great, thank you.

5:12:31I wanted to thank you to the mayor and council

5:12:34for providing the opportunity for me to speak today.

5:12:39And I just want to talk to you about

5:12:41the Heritage Conservation District draft plan,

5:12:44which was just released November 1st.

5:12:47I am the chair of Yorkland's Green Hub now

5:12:50and come as a representative to speak with you all.

5:12:53And as many of you know,

5:12:55we have been working to preserve the site for over 10 years

5:12:58and are in full support of establishing

5:13:01National Urban Park on the site.

5:13:04Before I get into my discussion points, though,

5:13:06I would like to express my disappointment

5:13:08at the incredibly short timeline

5:13:10to read and interpret such a long and complex document

5:13:14for anyone in the public to properly comment on it.

5:13:18And I noticed that it and the staff report

5:13:20were removed from the website yesterday,

5:13:22so no one could access them

5:13:24unless they had downloaded them before.

5:13:28So I just wanted to make those points.

5:13:31But now for my discussion points

5:13:34regarding the actual document.

5:13:37After reading through the plan,

5:13:39we noticed that it is largely encouraging

5:13:41and some people have already stated this,

5:13:44largely encouraging protection rather than requiring it.

5:13:48For example, on page 36 under section 5.1 and page 67,

5:13:53section 7.2.3, which may,

5:13:56those are sections which how use that word encourage.

5:14:02It just makes it a weaker document, really.

5:14:07And even though in the previous study of 2023,

5:14:11and I quote, the Ontario formatory HDC study area

5:14:16exceeds the test for designation

5:14:18as a heritage conservation district under subsection 41.1

5:14:23of the Ontario Heritage Act as prescribed by the regulation.

5:14:30And I won't number that as 100% of the properties

5:14:33within the study area satisfied

5:14:35at least two or more of the nine criteria.

5:14:38And that was on page 119.

5:14:41There are many shall be as well as well,

5:14:44especially in section 5.2,

5:14:46which from our perspective should be,

5:14:49or should say are required.

5:14:52On another point, there are a few buildings

5:14:54and Brian's already mentioned some of this

5:14:59that have not been designated under part four

5:15:02of the Heritage Act, including the chapel,

5:15:04which is listed where the jail fire mural is located.

5:15:08The Trestle Bridge also is listed,

5:15:11but it's not designated, which if repaired

5:15:14as proposed by the Gwalf Hiking Trail Club a few months back

5:15:18is an economically viable way of connecting the trails

5:15:21across the river through that part of the property.

5:15:24And the lower assembly hall,

5:15:25which has no protection at all

5:15:27where the native suns murals are located.

5:15:30We strongly urge that these buildings be protected

5:15:33and included in this document.

5:15:36In section six, under the design guidelines,

5:15:39it is evident that the plan encourages using native species

5:15:42wherever possible, but does not require it.

5:15:45For example, trees and plant material selection

5:15:50for new developments should include

5:15:51a variety of native species.

5:15:53There shall be preference for native or naturalized species.

5:15:56The phrase where possible in reference

5:15:59to preserving mature trees of 30 centimeters,

5:16:02DBH gives many ways to wriggle out of that preservation.

5:16:08Yorkland strongly recommends that the landscape

5:16:10be required to be preserved

5:16:12and restored to its natural state

5:16:14requiring the planting of native species.

5:16:17This week, COP 29 is happening.

5:16:20It's in where countries and cities across the world

5:16:23are working on climate change actions.

5:16:25As a mid-sized city in Canada,

5:16:27we need to be protecting this green space

5:16:30to help with mitigating climate change

5:16:32and ensuring biodiversity.

5:16:34It has been evident in other areas of the city

5:16:37when new developments occur

5:16:38that without really strong definitive protection

5:16:41of existing trees, with the additional requirement

5:16:44that any new plantings be native trees and plants,

5:16:46harm can occur.

5:16:48Legacy trees are often removed

5:16:51and replaced with foreign species that die soon afterwards

5:16:54due to lack of appropriate care.

5:16:56The City of Guelph Forestry Department

5:16:58has set a very high bar in its choice,

5:17:01planting and carrying of young trees on city property.

5:17:04However, when we urge that this should apply

5:17:07to all lands in Guelph, not just on city property,

5:17:12legacy trees are a vital part of heritage landscapes

5:17:15and are not easily replaced.

5:17:17It takes at least two lifetimes to grow an old tree

5:17:21and the climate crisis and changing weather patterns

5:17:23will test whether the current measurements

5:17:26of older trees can be reached again, ever.

5:17:30And finally, the Canadian Wildlife Service

5:17:33did an inventory of monarch butterflies

5:17:35and their eggs in the northeast field this past summer.

5:17:39They chose this field because it is the largest field

5:17:42with milkweed growing extensively,

5:17:45which supports monarch butterflies.

5:17:48Unfortunately, I don't have the results back yet,

5:17:50but the fact remains that it is a field

5:17:53that is a significant habitat for monarch butterflies,

5:17:56which are in rapid decline.

5:17:59So please send this back plan to staff strengthen it

5:18:03and or establish a national urban park there.

5:18:08Thank you.

5:18:11Thank you very much, Lynn.

5:18:13We appreciate your delegation.

5:18:15Any questions as a follow-up?

5:18:19Seeing none, so thank you very much.

5:18:25Okay, Alex, you're coming up to the mic,

5:18:27that's great.

5:18:28Is James Smith here in the room?

5:18:32Okay, you're in the wings, James.

5:18:36And Alex, thank you, I'll turn it over to you.

5:18:38Go right ahead.

5:18:39Thank you, Your Worship.

5:18:41Mr. Mayor, members of council and city staff,

5:18:46I propose to address four issues with respect to, first,

5:18:51the process that we are presently engaged

5:18:53in particularly using this planning meeting

5:18:56as the public meeting required in the Heritage Act.

5:19:00Secondly, the quality of the document prepared by WSP.

5:19:05Thirdly, some particularly troublesome issues

5:19:08in the plan and guidelines.

5:19:10And finally, the issue of the value for money proposition

5:19:14with respect to the plan that has been presented.

5:19:18So first of all, the process.

5:19:22In my view, this meeting does not provide members

5:19:25of the public with a reasonable opportunity

5:19:27to engage with council and city staff

5:19:30concerning the plan and guidelines

5:19:32that have been produced by WSP.

5:19:35I contrast this meeting with the public meeting

5:19:39that was held with respect to the first stage

5:19:41of this process, where a large meeting room

5:19:46at the Legion was full to overflowing.

5:19:50And Mr. Robinson and his colleagues spent a great part

5:19:53of the evening bringing in extra chairs

5:19:56to accommodate the scores of people

5:19:58who went out to attend that meeting.

5:20:01I received an email from Stephen Robinson

5:20:05on October the 31st, advising,

5:20:11or sorry, addressed to a number of interested members

5:20:16of the public, advising that a notice had been published

5:20:19with respect to the process

5:20:21that we're engaged in this evening.

5:20:23I do thank Mr. Robinson for his courtesy and advising me.

5:20:28I checked the city site the next day

5:20:31and that day, the staff report to council

5:20:35and WSP's document were posted on the city website

5:20:40in the draft agenda for tonight's council planning meeting.

5:20:44Members of the public were given one week

5:20:46to digest and respond a complex document,

5:20:50approximately 100 pages long,

5:20:53incorporating by reference sections of the Heritage Act,

5:20:57the city's official plan,

5:20:58the innovation district secondary plan,

5:21:02and other documents so that they could register to delegate

5:21:06and or provide written materials before 10 a.m. last Friday.

5:21:13They had to respond without the benefit

5:21:15of any observations that Heritage Guelph

5:21:20may make about the plan.

5:21:22Tonight's forum provides an opportunity

5:21:25for members of the public to raise concerns,

5:21:28but not to engage in discussion with city heritage staff,

5:21:34ask questions or seek clarification.

5:21:38To some, this may appear to be a box checking exercise

5:21:42rather than a meaningful exercise in public engagement.

5:21:46Speaking as one member of the public,

5:21:48I have not had sufficient time to digest the report

5:21:52and its implications so that I can provide

5:21:54a thoughtful response.

5:21:57But more importantly, according to the staff report,

5:22:02this is council's opportunity to ask questions

5:22:05for clarification and identify issues.

5:22:09I ask you rhetorically,

5:22:12how can you be expected to have sufficient time

5:22:15to digest the plan and guidelines

5:22:17so that you can reasonably identify the parts of the report

5:22:21that you may need for what you may need clarification

5:22:25and identify the key issues, particularly as far as

5:22:33this plan being the far from the only thing

5:22:38on your plates this evening.

5:22:41Secondly, the document.

5:22:43WSP's plan and guidelines is a badly drafted document.

5:22:49It contains typographical and grammatical errors,

5:22:54paragraphs have numbering issues,

5:22:57it contains no pagination for the indexes indices,

5:23:02and wrong pictures are attached to descriptions

5:23:06of some of the specific heritage features.

5:23:10It is surprising that a major consulting firm

5:23:13would release a document that had not had the benefit

5:23:17of adequate proofreading.

5:23:19I do not raise this issue to appear as a school teacher

5:23:24chiding a student for sloppy work.

5:23:28But if this document has so many facial errors,

5:23:31how can we be confident that the substance of the report

5:23:34does not suffer from similar shortcomings?

5:23:38I do not have the expertise to answer that rhetorical question,

5:23:43but it makes me wonder whether the taxpayers of Guelph

5:23:46got value for the money they spent on this report.

5:23:51The policies.

5:23:53As I indicate, I've been able to complete a careful

5:23:56and comprehensive analysis of all the policies

5:23:59and guidelines contained in the study,

5:24:01but three issues strike me as being particularly problematic.

5:24:06First of all, the policies are weak with respect

5:24:09to preserving the existing heritage features,

5:24:13including those designated under part

5:24:15for the Heritage Act.

5:24:17For instance, general guideline one sub-I requires that,

5:24:23quote, where development will result in change

5:24:27to a landscape heritage attribute,

5:24:31it shall seek to respect those characteristics

5:24:34which have been identified as contributing

5:24:37to its heritage value.

5:24:40I do not understand what that guideline requires,

5:24:44as it does not elaborate on the balancing process required.

5:24:50Obviously adding shall to a requirement

5:24:55that development seek to respect the heritage value

5:25:00of the attributes to be changed

5:25:04does little to strengthen that process.

5:25:08How, for instance, do you seek to respect

5:25:11the heritage value of the stone

5:25:15if you are repurposing that, the stone in the walls,

5:25:21if you are repurposing that space

5:25:23for residential development?

5:25:25We have no answer to that question.

5:25:28Secondly, general guideline one sub-II

5:25:33is even more problematic.

5:25:35It states improvements or required interventions

5:25:41such as naturalization of ponds and creeks

5:25:45to restore ecological function is,

5:25:48and I think it should read R,

5:25:50permitted with consideration for the conservation

5:25:54of identified heritage attributes.

5:25:59That provision with respect is as clear as mud to me,

5:26:04but it would appear to authorize the demolition

5:26:06of any heritage features for improvements

5:26:12and required interventions.

5:26:15Who determines what constitutes an improvement

5:26:19or an intervention is required?

5:26:24It seems to trump any heritage value consideration.

5:26:29It gives, as an example, naturalization of ponds and creeks,

5:26:34but does not impose a limitation

5:26:36on the application of those guidelines

5:26:38to just ponds and creeks.

5:26:41This provision appears to have the effect of negating

5:26:47any provisions of heritage attributes

5:26:50to accommodate any improvements or required interventions.

5:26:55In other words, it seems to ask you as counsel

5:26:59to write a blank check.

5:27:03Thirdly, policy 5.7 recommends these policies

5:27:08and guidelines of the HCD apply to all properties

5:27:13within the OR, including those heritage properties

5:27:17designated under part four of the Ontario Heritage Act.

5:27:21There's no explanation as why this recommendation is made.

5:27:24It simply seems to flip the priority of those two sections

5:27:31as they are clearly set out in section 41

5:27:37of the Heritage Act.

5:27:40Finally, value for money.

5:27:42This plan is so weak that it is difficult

5:27:45to find any value that it adds

5:27:49to the heritage protection of the reformatory site.

5:27:53I had high hopes that a part five designation

5:27:57would add to the heritage protection afforded

5:28:00to this unique and valuable heritage gem.

5:28:04When I read the report, those high hopes were eroded.

5:28:11Unique, is that 30 seconds?

5:28:15I have one line left, thank you.

5:28:17WSP has produced a plan that appears

5:28:22to actually undermine the protections in the Heritage Act.

5:28:29That, in my respectful submission,

5:28:31is not what counsel asked them to do.

5:28:34Thank you.

5:28:36And thank you very much for your presentation.

5:28:38Is there any questions for this delegate?

5:28:42Seeing none, thank you very much.

5:28:44Thank you, Worship.

5:28:47And just one moment, okay?

5:29:04Thank you, just conferring with the clerk there for clarity.

5:29:07James Smith, I think is here in the front row.

5:29:11And then that is it for our list,

5:29:14and I will then ask, as I've done before,

5:29:17if there's anyone else that would like to speak

5:29:20to the matter or call in.

5:29:21But James, thank you for being here.

5:29:23I'll turn it over to you.

5:29:26Thank you.

5:29:27And just for clarity, although we share a surname,

5:29:32we ain't related, so.

5:29:35It's a popular name, what can I say?

5:29:39Your Worship members of council, city staff,

5:29:43and members of the public, thank you for the opportunity.

5:29:47As a former vice chair of Heritage Guelph,

5:29:51I'm very happy that council took our initiative

5:29:58to start a part five designation for this.

5:30:02And I wanna thank you for it,

5:30:04and I wanna thank city staff and the consultant

5:30:06for putting this together.

5:30:11In light of the time and the many people

5:30:14that have spoken before me, may I just say,

5:30:17Ibbid to a lot of what was said before.

5:30:22I was going to go through some of this

5:30:26as someone who has coached drafting over the years

5:30:31in various opportunities.

5:30:34I was going to go through a number of these problems

5:30:38in the document from that point of view.

5:30:40But just let me say as a general point

5:30:44that that as somebody who works on documents such as this

5:30:49and as one in my professional life,

5:30:53I managed the small commercial projects

5:30:55for Allen and the architects in Toronto.

5:30:58And I have to say that given my vintage

5:31:04and when I learned to put drawings together,

5:31:09it was all in black and white on vellum.

5:31:12We use blueprints.

5:31:15And with the greatest respect to planners,

5:31:18I think they use too many crayons.

5:31:21I think it just makes the communication of a document

5:31:26a little too muddy.

5:31:28Certainly the old saw goes that a picture's worth

5:31:33a thousand words, but if you need a thousand words

5:31:35to describe a picture, then perhaps you don't need

5:31:38the picture.

5:31:39And I'd like to just delve into that a little bit.

5:31:44And that is in the appendices.

5:31:48There has been alluded to, there is something

5:31:53that's called a bridge, but it has a roof

5:31:55and there is a building that doesn't have a roof.

5:31:59There are some difficulties with how these,

5:32:04the images of the reformatory that are supposed to be part

5:32:09of what we're talking about in a part five designation

5:32:14have been mishandled, so it's difficult to identify.

5:32:20I think as Councillor O'Rourke put to,

5:32:24I think it was Mr. Scarrett when he was saying

5:32:29that perhaps no document was a good idea.

5:32:37I don't think that's, I thought about that a great deal.

5:32:41And I don't think that's really the case.

5:32:43I think really the case that needs to be made

5:32:46is there needs to be an opportunity

5:32:49for this document to be received,

5:32:52but an opportunity to go forward

5:32:55with both real civic engagement,

5:32:58a public meeting of some kind,

5:33:00not this kind of formality, but something

5:33:03that would allow members of the public and stakeholders

5:33:06to really drill into this document

5:33:10and correct the obvious mistakes that have been made.

5:33:17I think that heritage staff have done a good job

5:33:21in their presentation.

5:33:23One of my, if I may, complaints is that

5:33:28throughout the document, there are some inconsistencies.

5:33:34It appears as if the images that are supplied

5:33:38are really based on something that would be printed

5:33:41on a 36 by 24 piece of drafting paper

5:33:46rather than what staff has presented,

5:33:48which is a concise document.

5:33:51Staff have more or less shown the street grid

5:33:58at a 90 degree easier to understand.

5:34:01Throughout much of the document, that happens,

5:34:05and then it's changed.

5:34:07So true north is pointing up,

5:34:09and so it's on a 30 degree angle.

5:34:13There's too much just in the layout

5:34:17that needs to be fixed and improved.

5:34:19So with that, I'll end my comments,

5:34:21and again, thank you for the opportunity.

5:34:25Thank you.

5:34:26Is there any questions at all for this delegate?

5:34:29Seeing and hearing none, thank you very much.

5:34:32That's all for the delegations that signed up.

5:34:35As we've done before, we'll take about a five minute break

5:34:38as we put a phone number, oops, sorry,

5:34:40a phone number up on the screen,

5:34:42just in case someone wants to call in.

5:34:44I'll also go to the room if somebody wishes to

5:34:46when I come back to also speak.

5:34:49The phone number is 519-837-5603.

5:34:55Okay, so again, we'll take about a five minute break

5:34:57and then we'll come back at that point.

5:35:00Thank you very much.

5:40:00Okay, I'm calling the meeting back to order,

5:40:02but just would ask my colleagues that are remote

5:40:05to please put on their cameras,

5:40:06just for a second, just to make sure we have quorum.

5:40:09If you need to turn it off then, that's fine.

5:40:13Is there anybody in the room

5:40:14that also wishes to speak to this item?

5:40:17Susan Watson, and yes, okay, three, okay, perfect.

5:40:23We'll go one, two, three.

5:40:29And again, just so you know, it's no more than 10 minutes.

5:40:33You'll hear a chime at the nine minute 30 second mark.

5:40:36The microphone does get turned off at 10 minutes.

5:40:39Let's hope that doesn't happen.

5:40:40Stick around just in case there's any questions

5:40:42as a follow up, okay?

5:40:43I know you know those rules, but just so everyone knows,

5:40:45okay, go ahead Susan.

5:40:46Thank you.

5:40:48Mayor Guthrie and members of council.

5:40:50I think as citizens, when we think about the Heritage Act,

5:40:55we think about preserving things and protecting them.

5:40:59That's the intent of that act.

5:41:01And yes, it's not preserving things in stone

5:41:04so that they can't be part of the living fabric of the city,

5:41:08but you know, I think of European cities

5:41:11or even a Laura or Quebec city

5:41:15where the heritage has really been valued

5:41:18and there reaping dividends in that

5:41:22and the visitors that come

5:41:24and the people who wanna be part of that.

5:41:27The other thing is that a cultural heritage landscape

5:41:34is a place where there's a relationship

5:41:38between all of the different elements.

5:41:40So you think about something like Fort York

5:41:43where you have the armory and you have the barracks

5:41:45and you have the dining room

5:41:46and there's a sense of place and a relationship.

5:41:49Like that's what a cultural heritage landscape is.

5:41:53And I try and think, well, how would that work

5:41:55for Fort York if they had,

5:41:57well, we're gonna have some housing in there as well

5:42:00and we're gonna have four story housing and you know what,

5:42:03it just wouldn't be the same in terms of the experience

5:42:08of that place.

5:42:11So there are a couple of things going forward on this

5:42:14that I just want to really bring forward

5:42:17and remind council of.

5:42:19One is that when you approved the change of zoning

5:42:23for the employment lands to residential

5:42:28on the fusion property in the innovation district,

5:42:32former CAO Scott Stewart told you

5:42:35that you would have to subtract housing elsewhere

5:42:40because there is not enough water projected to 2051

5:42:45in this city as a groundwater dependent community

5:42:48for that extra housing.

5:42:51And we seem to be continually adding density

5:42:56on almost every development which comes before council.

5:42:59And now we have this plan to have secondary units

5:43:03and granny flats.

5:43:05So where is the map happening on that?

5:43:08So I don't even see actually a need for more housing

5:43:13on the reformatory property

5:43:16because you've already surpassed it.

5:43:18You've already surpassed our water budget.

5:43:22In the parks and recreation master plan process,

5:43:26we learned that we have a looming parkland deficit

5:43:29that we're going to be 174 hectares short

5:43:33of parkland relative to population by 2051.

5:43:38And that's equivalent to five riverside parks.

5:43:42And this was before Doug Ford further reduced

5:43:46the amount of parkland dedication

5:43:48that developers contribute.

5:43:51And it was also before we were looking

5:43:55at parkland purchases being kicked down the road

5:43:58indefinitely so that we can keep taxes at 4%

5:44:02but still with our tax dollars subsidized developer profits

5:44:06by picking up the tap for development charges.

5:44:10This site actually already functions as a park in Guelph.

5:44:15And I've been lucky enough to hike there often

5:44:18through the Meadows near York Road

5:44:21which we've learned our critical habitat for pollinators

5:44:25and for monogs.

5:44:27And we have a dearth, we have a lack of Meadows

5:44:32as natural heritage sites.

5:44:33We're often conscious about protecting forests.

5:44:37We don't have enough Meadow protection.

5:44:41So there's the Meadows and then hiking along the river

5:44:44down by the Stone Quarry.

5:44:46And you can loop back up the other side.

5:44:49The beauty of this site is found in the iconic gatehouse,

5:44:55the sweep of the driveway, the Copper Beach Tree,

5:45:00the stone walls and Meadows.

5:45:03And the relationship between all of these elements

5:45:06needs to be conserved.

5:45:09I support the three motions proposed by Councillor Caton

5:45:13on X and I want to see this heritage site

5:45:17become an indigenous led National Urban Park.

5:45:21Thank you.

5:45:22Thank you.

5:45:23Are there any questions for this delegate?

5:45:27No, there isn't, thank you very much.

5:45:30We have a couple more.

5:45:31Did you want to come down one by one

5:45:33or did you want to come together?

5:45:35It's up to you.

5:45:37Okay.

5:45:43And again, just for the record,

5:45:45we just need full names when you come up to the microphone.

5:45:48And again, you have up to 10 minutes if you wish

5:45:50and you can start whenever you're ready.

5:45:51Just start with your name, that's all.

5:45:53Thank you.

5:45:54Greetings everyone.

5:45:55I'm Thomas Kaufman.

5:45:57I go by the pseudonym Tama.

5:46:00Very encouraging to be here this evening.

5:46:03Caught me a little off guard.

5:46:04I wasn't planning on going out,

5:46:06but when I heard about the topic,

5:46:08it piqued my interest because I think we have

5:46:11a brilliant opportunity to do something really unique here.

5:46:16And I think we can bring the whole community together.

5:46:18That's what I already heard in this little snippet

5:46:21that I caught this evening.

5:46:23There's a need for collaboration.

5:46:25There's a need for working together.

5:46:28I think there's a lot of brilliance

5:46:30and somebody just coming along and dictating

5:46:33how it's gonna be, I don't think is gonna work.

5:46:36I don't think we want that kind of thing.

5:46:39We need to incorporate the whole community

5:46:41is what I heard into this.

5:46:43And just a quick note while it comes to mind,

5:46:45putting housing in here, traditional housing,

5:46:49let's call it that, I think is a missed opportunity,

5:46:53but maybe some alternative style housing is what we need.

5:46:58I can speak from experience,

5:46:59not all of us want to live in a regular house

5:47:03and nowadays a shrunken house called a tiny house.

5:47:08That's not inspiring.

5:47:09What is inspiring is forests and living amongst the trees.

5:47:15It's about different ways of using land

5:47:18that the originals that were here lived like,

5:47:22a healing place.

5:47:24I see it as a wellness park, a holistic wellness park.

5:47:28There's a lot of healing that needs to be done.

5:47:31There's reconciliation that needs to be done,

5:47:33but there's also growth and inspiration

5:47:36that needs to happen.

5:47:37Not just survival, which is what we saw

5:47:40in the encampments, that's basic survival.

5:47:42How many of us want to live like that?

5:47:45I'm talking about something more inspired.

5:47:48I just came from an island in the Salish Sea

5:47:50where I spent the summer living in the forest with friends.

5:47:54I personally lived in an old van that was still drivable.

5:47:59It was a really cool experience.

5:48:01I have a really nice place here.

5:48:04Mind you, there's a time and a time

5:48:05to take us out right now.

5:48:07Brandt Avenue Apartments, we're being renovicted.

5:48:11Kind of exciting in a way, because if that fails,

5:48:14I want to get a van and live in it.

5:48:16Where am I going to park that van?

5:48:18I want to be close to my son when I'm this part

5:48:20of the country.

5:48:22There's a whole community of people now

5:48:25that live in their vans are called Nomads, the modern.

5:48:28I call them Neo Nomads.

5:48:31What about them?

5:48:32What about those that are living in their cars?

5:48:34Because they're forced to.

5:48:36More and more people are falling into that.

5:48:38That doesn't even get talked about.

5:48:41And then there's the ones that are in the encampments.

5:48:44And I can tell you, they need some help,

5:48:46not being forced into certain things,

5:48:50but they need help and assistance in building something.

5:48:53On this island, what's really unique about it is,

5:48:56they had no building codes when most of the structures

5:48:59were built and they still stand today,

5:49:02long time afterward, and it's an amazing place.

5:49:05There's a great energy there.

5:49:07It's all natural type work that was done.

5:49:10I even had a chance to do some of that this year,

5:49:13to do some of that kind of building

5:49:15with the natural materials.

5:49:17And we could do that here and that would be inspiring.

5:49:21There, the farmer's market was in the forest.

5:49:24And that was a cool thing to do during,

5:49:26on a Saturday morning, is go to the farmer's market.

5:49:30And it was all local.

5:49:32There was no stuff coming in and from outside.

5:49:36It was all people there that lived there.

5:49:39That's the only way we could actually get a booth there.

5:49:41Much like our golf market that's kind of just

5:49:43tucked over there in the corner, imagine something

5:49:47like that on this property.

5:49:49There's lots of areas for permaculture.

5:49:51My friend out there was starting a food forest, actually,

5:49:55planting nut trees in strategic locations.

5:49:58I learned how to go foraging.

5:50:04I learned how to walk barefoot through nature a lot

5:50:07and right through the woods where the old growth forest was.

5:50:11I went to a place called the medicine farm out there.

5:50:13I saw how you can build little communities

5:50:16and build unique structures.

5:50:18But it took thinking out of the box

5:50:20that we put ourselves into.

5:50:22And that's kind of what I have in mind to propose.

5:50:25So a holistic wellness park, which

5:50:28could be done on a temporary basis,

5:50:30it has to be managed, of course.

5:50:32Can't be a free for all.

5:50:34But it could inspire people to want to come to this place.

5:50:38And it could integrate the whole community together.

5:50:41And it's also a place where we could do some work.

5:50:44There's a recycling facility, or I would say

5:50:47it's probably more of a transfer site right now.

5:50:50I don't know how much recycling gets done.

5:50:52Right next door, couldn't we bring some of those materials

5:50:56in and either reprocess them properly

5:51:00and maybe use them to rebuild and build things?

5:51:02I've done that all my life as well.

5:51:04It's all doable.

5:51:05When people build their own structures

5:51:07to live in with help and support, they have buy-in.

5:51:11They want to keep the place nice.

5:51:14If they have a secure place and they

5:51:16can trust the people around them,

5:51:18because it's built on values, I heard about a detailed plan

5:51:22that somebody worked very hard on that really,

5:51:25for what I heard about it, they tried

5:51:27to do a really considerate and a good job,

5:51:30maybe caught some criticism for it.

5:51:32But I really, what was highlighted,

5:51:33it's complex, who's going to follow this thing?

5:51:36It needs to be done by values, by coming together,

5:51:40deciding what's the right thing to do,

5:51:42and then taking inspired action quickly.

5:51:44Not with a lot of bureaucracy.

5:51:46It's pretty simple to really start.

5:51:48Open the gate, let us in, we'll get set up,

5:51:52and show that it works.

5:51:53On a temporary basis, which is permissible

5:51:55from my understanding, I have to bend a few things.

5:51:59Few people won't like it.

5:52:01But I think if it could be proven

5:52:04and it become a magical place, like an enchanted forest,

5:52:08imagine getting a bunch of artists and other people

5:52:10together that are diverse and creating a space

5:52:15without all the, you have to be this and it has to be that.

5:52:20It needs to be safe.

5:52:22It needs to be comfortable.

5:52:24That's not out there, what was there, what was taken away.

5:52:26And where are they now?

5:52:28I've seen them scattered in parks,

5:52:29people living in there.

5:52:31Me potentially too, right?

5:52:34So how do we make this nice for everybody

5:52:37and bring everybody together?

5:52:39Is that a great property there?

5:52:41Got heritage there, some lessons to learn,

5:52:44and a great community.

5:52:47I mean, coming back here, I'll be honest,

5:52:48I was resistant in the beginning,

5:52:50but after talking to the people around here again,

5:52:54people have heart.

5:52:55People wanna do the right thing.

5:52:58People wanna build things up and people wanna change.

5:53:01So anyways, that's my little spiel for this evening.

5:53:05Thank you, thank you.

5:53:06Okay, no problem.

5:53:07Is there any questions for this delegate?

5:53:11There is not, thank you very much.

5:53:13Appreciate it.

5:53:14Thank you for the opportunity.

5:53:15Yep, and we have one more.

5:53:27Welcome, and feel free to state your name,

5:53:30and then you can speak your mind as well.

5:53:31Go right ahead.

5:53:32Hi, I'm Daniel Kauffman,

5:53:33and yeah, I'll kinda be going off

5:53:35what my father's talking about.

5:53:36User passionate about it, did trail a little bit,

5:53:38but the general idea of what we wanted to talk about,

5:53:43and I agree with him on,

5:53:43is that we have an opportunity here

5:53:45where I would say there is, from my understanding,

5:53:48and from friends that I know that work in city policy,

5:53:52and stuff like that,

5:53:53there is the temporary possibility

5:53:56for temporary zoning for an area

5:54:00that we could dedicate to community.

5:54:01I'm not saying to take over the entirety of this property,

5:54:04because of course there's a lot of people here

5:54:06that I'm sure are very passionate

5:54:07about having things preserved as they are,

5:54:09or maintained, or changed in ways

5:54:12that benefit the heritage of the community.

5:54:15I do believe though that there is a opportunity here,

5:54:18as we talked about earlier,

5:54:19with there's people that are a vulnerable in our community,

5:54:21and that need a way to reintegrate back into society.

5:54:26I've spoken about it before with people,

5:54:29some of people on council,

5:54:30and then just personally with people in my life,

5:54:33about the lands where the old reformatory

5:54:35being a great place for rehabilitation,

5:54:38reformation as the original intent of the facility was,

5:54:42back into society.

5:54:43I am proposing that council perhaps

5:54:48contemplate the idea of zoning a portion of the land,

5:54:52towards people who are currently homeless,

5:54:54who are in the city,

5:54:56and a place that not necessarily they can set up encampments

5:54:59as we would see them with 10 cities,

5:55:01because that would be difficult to manage,

5:55:03but the possibility for those that are willing,

5:55:06and as a test,

5:55:08have people come in and build structures for which to live in.

5:55:11You could have city staff that verify the integrity

5:55:13and make sure that these are permissible places to live,

5:55:16and that it's overseen with city staff,

5:55:19but it would be a place that people could go,

5:55:21and as my father would say, it's a wellness park.

5:55:23It's a place that people that want the opportunity

5:55:26can move in and move towards that.

5:55:29I understand again though,

5:55:30there will be some resistance to that,

5:55:32because there is also the move towards having this

5:55:34be a heritage site completely,

5:55:35and I'm sure people do have difficulties

5:55:38of people who are homeless,

5:55:39and seeing them and interacting with them.

5:55:42So that's why I also believe it's something

5:55:45that's better to do sooner and experiment with on this land,

5:55:49while it's being developed into something of a heritage site.

5:55:52That's why only like, you know, you could do a year or two.

5:55:54Just again, as my father kind of said, open the gates,

5:55:57let them in, see what we can do.

5:55:58If it doesn't work, then that's just what it was.

5:56:01It was a temporary plan and just an experiment.

5:56:03I'm really just proposing this as a consideration for council

5:56:07to deliberate about and maybe propose.

5:56:10That's about all.

5:56:12Great, thank you very much for your presentation,

5:56:15and any questions from my colleagues?

5:56:18There is none, thank you very much.

5:56:20Appreciate you coming down.

5:56:21Thank you.

5:56:22All right.

5:56:24That's the end of our delegations,

5:56:26and with that council, I'm just gonna look to move

5:56:29to see if we can quickly go in camera

5:56:31for a very quick discussion,

5:56:33and we could have the motion put up on the screen, please.

5:56:38It is that the council of the city,

5:56:40you can now hold a meeting closed to the public,

5:56:42pursuant to section 239 to see an F of the municipal act,

5:56:46a proposed, depending acquisition or disposition of land

5:56:50by the municipality or local board,

5:56:52and advice that is subject to solicitor client privilege,

5:56:54including communications necessary for that purpose.

5:56:58Would someone thank you?

5:56:59Councillor Goller is willing to move.

5:57:01Richardson is willing to second,

5:57:04and I'll call the vote as anyone against.

5:57:08No one? Great.

5:57:09We hope to be back very quickly.

5:57:10We're gonna have a closed meeting,

5:57:11and we'll do a high level summary in just a few moments.

5:57:14Thank you.

6:07:44And my colleagues online,

6:07:45if you could just put your camera back on,

6:07:47we'll continue right away.

6:07:55And just as a summary of the closed session,

6:08:00we did gather just to consider some advice

6:08:05and direction, and we did give direction

6:08:10to staff in regards to the lands

6:08:14that we were just discussing.

6:08:16So there's your summary, okay?

6:08:21It's back to us now,

6:08:22because there's no more delegations.

6:08:28Can I ask someone to at least put the recommendation

6:08:34on the floor for us, please?

6:08:36And I'll read it out as it goes up on the screen.

6:08:39Report 2024-487 from Planning, Building, Engineering

6:08:44and Environment, dated November 13th, 2024.

6:08:47Regarding the draft,

6:08:49Ontario Reformatory Heritage Conservation District Plan

6:08:51and guidelines be received.

6:08:54So if anybody else that's joined or listening in,

6:08:57this is not, we're not here for an approval of this tonight.

6:09:00The whole point was to listen to some of the feedback,

6:09:04and that's why it's only received only, okay?

6:09:07Who's willing to put that at least on the floor?

6:09:10Guller and Gibson, okay?

6:09:13Thank you.

6:09:14And now I will go to my colleagues

6:09:17who has only questions,

6:09:19and I am gonna do the chair nudge.

6:09:24It's getting late.

6:09:25So let's be succinct,

6:09:27and to the point on everything that we do

6:09:31from here on out, please.

6:09:32I will go to Downer.

6:09:34I will go to Kate and then Claeson.

6:09:39So this is just questions, not comments, not feedback.

6:09:42Okay.

6:09:44So I did wanna talk about that, ask about,

6:09:47you know, we talk about the words shall, should,

6:09:50and I remember this question from years ago,

6:09:52like will, sometimes they used to put so-so,

6:09:55will put do this, or,

6:09:56and I was concerned too,

6:09:59where I saw the word should,

6:10:01because it just didn't seem to be strong enough

6:10:05as shall or will or,

6:10:07I don't, required is,

6:10:09I don't know if something that you've put in

6:10:10this type of a document or not,

6:10:11but can you speak to the language of what,

6:10:15the difference between when you say shall,

6:10:19from a, from a,

6:10:21from, I know what it means also,

6:10:22but from a planning document perspective,

6:10:25because like they see that in official plans sometimes as well.

6:10:33I don't know if that's Christa or Steven.

6:10:35Through the mayor to the council.

6:10:37So we'll take a look at it and review it.

6:10:43The purpose of tonight was to get it out there

6:10:45so we can start consultation and get all those feedbacks.

6:10:47So as Steven mentioned at the beginning of this presentation,

6:10:50there's a lot of consultation to occur yet on this

6:10:52before it comes back to council.

6:10:55But we'll take a look at it.

6:10:57Heritage Conservation District though,

6:11:00you know, also has a bit of flexibility

6:11:04built into it as well.

6:11:06If we take a look at,

6:11:07you know, our existing Heritage Conservation District,

6:11:10we do have flexibility and guidelines

6:11:13and the guidelines are attached

6:11:15as part of this document as well,

6:11:17but we'll take a look at it and see.

6:11:20We definitely heard the comments tonight

6:11:21from members of the community.

6:11:22So we'll double check.

6:11:24Yeah. Yeah.

6:11:25So, you know, and it is that it sprinkled throughout

6:11:28the shell on the sheds and how do we strengthen that?

6:11:32So I'd like to see that.

6:11:33But, you know, there's even the one that, you know,

6:11:36another one that stuck out to me and Gough, you know,

6:11:38the Gwelfurban forest friends, but, you know,

6:11:41why is it that you should plant native species?

6:11:45Why isn't it you're required to or you have to?

6:11:47I mean, this is sort of like, that's important in Gwelf.

6:11:51We promote that type of things.

6:11:53Why wouldn't we require native species?

6:11:56Why wouldn't you put in a native tree

6:11:59instead of some other kind that could tend

6:12:01to our five years from now as being an invasive species?

6:12:05Why wouldn't we just do that?

6:12:06To me, it's just that kind of thing.

6:12:08Like let's strengthen that up.

6:12:12The other question I have too is around the,

6:12:16the, you know, there's,

6:12:19it did go to a, you know, some people said about the language

6:12:21and maybe needs to be strengthened,

6:12:23but I'm concerned about this thing about,

6:12:27it's gonna conform to whatever tree protection

6:12:30by law we have.

6:12:32We don't know what that is.

6:12:33It could be really weak.

6:12:34It could be really strong.

6:12:38You know, I live in a heritage district.

6:12:40There are specific, there's a different level

6:12:44of protection for trees in the heritage district I live in.

6:12:48Why would we just say for this one,

6:12:50which is significant in its trees

6:12:53and has a lot of legacy trees?

6:12:55Why would we say it's just needs to conform

6:12:58to the tree protection by law

6:12:59that's gonna cover private property coming up?

6:13:05Like I just, so I guess I could ask the why,

6:13:10but you know, you can answer,

6:13:12but maybe you could just hear that as a concern

6:13:14that I think it should have its own standalone tree protection.

6:13:20And in this document.

6:13:32Kate and then Klassen and then Goer.

6:13:36Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

6:13:37I have a motion that I wanna bring.

6:13:39Is that now or are we doing that after questions?

6:13:47I think it would probably be better to,

6:13:51like this is just a receive,

6:13:53like we're just receiving the information.

6:13:55I think probably voting on this

6:13:57because it's just receiving it.

6:13:59It's no action, no approval

6:14:02is probably the best thing to do first.

6:14:04And then yours can go right, right down afterwards.

6:14:09Okay. Is that okay with you?

6:14:10So then I have other questions then.

6:14:13Through you to staff.

6:14:15Is the property currently zoned for residential?

6:14:22Through the mayor of the council or no.

6:14:25Through the mayor to staff.

6:14:26And why are we including residential

6:14:28into a conservation plan

6:14:30that is in conflict with our official plan?

6:14:37Through the mayor to the counselor.

6:14:38So the official plan identifies the area

6:14:41as was indicated at the beginning as adaptive reuse.

6:14:46So, and I believe Stephen actually read out

6:14:49the definition of adaptive reuse

6:14:50that talks about rehabilitation, restoration,

6:14:53maintenance and reuse of built heritage resources

6:14:55and cultural heritage landscapes

6:14:57will serve as a focal point of new development.

6:15:00The designation permits a mix of uses

6:15:03including institutional education,

6:15:04commercial office, light industrial and open space

6:15:08in a part form that respects existing built heritage form

6:15:11and it goes on.

6:15:12So for staff, we took a look at it

6:15:14and it does allow for institutional educational

6:15:17commercial office, light industrial and open space.

6:15:20And we are suggesting that reuse

6:15:25and restoration and redevelopment in this definition

6:15:29could also in capture residential.

6:15:32We are not proposing a zoning by law amendment

6:15:34or an official plan amendment as part of this proposal.

6:15:39Okay, thank you.

6:15:40Then through the mayor, I would think that my feedback

6:15:42would be that I would like to see the residential

6:15:46be rethought in the final conservation plan.

6:15:51Thank you.

6:15:53Claeson, then Gowler.

6:15:58Yes, thank you through you, Mr. Mayor to staff.

6:16:02I'm just, you know, following up on some of the comments

6:16:07regarding the community providing their input.

6:16:10So my question is two fold.

6:16:12So what are the next steps for the community

6:16:14to be able to provide their input into this document?

6:16:17Just looking at the presentation,

6:16:19it says that there will be some consultation

6:16:21with heritage planning, First Nations, community,

6:16:27land and over group in December.

6:16:29But I'm just curious if there will be

6:16:33like a public information session with like the poster boards

6:16:35like I've been to some public information sessions

6:16:37and you know, this is a highly technical document.

6:16:40So I'm just wondering if there will be that opportunity

6:16:43for consultants and staff to engage with people

6:16:46in sort of that public forum format.

6:16:49Thank you.

6:16:52Through the mayor to the counselor.

6:16:53Yes.

6:16:54So we are waiting to see where this went this evening.

6:16:57As we know, there is another motion coming forward as well.

6:17:00But we are working behind the scenes on the have your say page

6:17:03to get up that up and ready again

6:17:05to the top of the list to start that

6:17:09as well as have engagement sessions similar to what we did

6:17:12with the, when the boundary in the study area.

6:17:14So yes, there will be public consultation

6:17:16outside of those focus groups as well.

6:17:21Okay. Thank you.

6:17:25Collor, please.

6:17:27Thank you through your worship to staff.

6:17:30Thank you so much for this opportunity.

6:17:33Just one question.

6:17:35Is it possible that when this comes back,

6:17:38it has the maximum allowable protection

6:17:43for natural, cultural and heritage components

6:17:48of this plan under legislation?

6:17:50I mean, is it possible for you, you know,

6:17:51when the question is solved like, should, could, must,

6:17:54is it possible for you to present,

6:17:55this is what it would look like

6:17:57if we protected everything to the maximum, allowable by law?

6:18:01Is that something that could be presented to us on the road?

6:18:08Through the mayor to the, the councillor,

6:18:12we'll take that back as far as natural heritage.

6:18:15Some of the OP policies already in place.

6:18:17You'll see like the, in the OP,

6:18:18the blue adaptive reuse and the NHS is already around it.

6:18:23This study did not include a update those plans.

6:18:25Any development within block four has to go through

6:18:27its own look process.

6:18:29So we did not do that, but we'll take a look at that

6:18:31in addition to the cultural heritage components

6:18:33that you talked about as well.

6:18:34Thank you very much.

6:18:36Thank you, worship.

6:18:38Thank you, alt, please.

6:18:42Most of my comments have already been taken,

6:18:44but the one thing that I would request of staff

6:18:46was something that was arose from Mr. Scarrett,

6:18:50that urban park, Guelph be considered to have standing

6:18:54with the community and the stakeholder groups.

6:18:56I think it's as important to engage the community

6:19:00in formal fashions as it is to determine

6:19:02what the ultimate final report will be.

6:19:10So that's just feedback.

6:19:13Okay.

6:19:15Is there anything else?

6:19:17Okay, O'Rourke.

6:19:18And then, okay, I'm going to stop right now

6:19:22because we have to do another motion to go past midnight.

6:19:27So because we're going to obviously be up against that clock.

6:19:31So would someone be willing to move that section 4.13

6:19:35of the procedural bylaw be suspended to allow council

6:19:38to continue the November 13th, 2024 council meeting,

6:19:41planning meeting beyond 12 a.m.

6:19:44I think this is the first time we've done it this term,

6:19:47which is better than the last couple of terms.

6:19:50So that's good.

6:19:53But Guller is willing to move it.

6:19:55Katen is willing to second it.

6:19:58Okay, I'm going to call the vote is anyone against?

6:20:05That's three.

6:20:05Okay, so that passes and we will continue.

6:20:13I'm so sorry, I've lost my spot.

6:20:14Was there someone about to speak?

6:20:16Yes, I think it was a Rourke and then it was somebody else.

6:20:20Was it a Rourke and Billings?

6:20:22Perfect, thank you, Guller.

6:20:23A Rourke, then Billings.

6:20:25Thanks, Margaritory.

6:20:26So just speaking to process that one of the delegates

6:20:28talked about, my concern is that it's getting late in the day.

6:20:33We all prepared a number of questions

6:20:35and we know there are more motions coming.

6:20:38Is there an opportunity to refer back to staff

6:20:40and to pick up this conversation

6:20:42at a later planning meeting?

6:20:45I'm just not personally, I'm not feeling well.

6:20:47It's why I'm not in council chambers.

6:20:51And we're saying this is a really important document.

6:20:56This is a historic decision.

6:20:58We want to be talking about the potential for an urban park.

6:21:02And I think that requires some due consideration.

6:21:07So I don't know what I had questions,

6:21:09but I don't want to belabor the point.

6:21:12I'd like to do it at a time when we're all.

6:21:16Yeah, councillor O'Rourke, I hear you

6:21:19and thank you for interjecting on that.

6:21:21But just procedurally, we just had a vote.

6:21:24Council said that they wanted to continue

6:21:26to go past midnight, so we got to keep going.

6:21:29Now, each individual councillor can make that decision,

6:21:32whether they stay or not.

6:21:34And of course, any member of council

6:21:36has the ability to move procedurally motions

6:21:40of deferral, referral, anything like that.

6:21:42So until anything like that is suggested,

6:21:47it's probably good to keep pushing through.

6:21:50That's my personal opinion,

6:21:52but as the chair, I just got to procedurally lay it out as well.

6:21:54So you still have the floor, go ahead.

6:21:56Well, Mayor Guthrie, I'd like to move referral

6:21:58to the next planning meeting.

6:22:03Okay, councillor Billings, you are seconding?

6:22:10Okay, I'm just going to confer with the clerks for a moment

6:22:13and I'll keep my mic on so that people can hear me

6:22:17if you're online, just so you know what I'm saying.

6:22:19Okay, can I just ask a clarity question?

6:22:24A referral, does that mean we have to start all over

6:22:28with delegations and such, or it's just a continuation

6:22:31of this item as if it's paused now

6:22:34and it just picks back up at another time?

6:22:39Thank you, Ms. Marin.

6:22:40And through you.

6:22:41Pretty sure, it just continues, but.

6:22:43We would add this to another agenda

6:22:45and it would open it up for delegations.

6:22:50Okay, okay, thank you.

6:22:52That's why I asked.

6:22:55Yeah, all right, well, we have it moved and seconded

6:22:59by O'Rourke and Billings because it's a referral.

6:23:05I am allowed to give my opinion before the vote.

6:23:08So I'm going to just do it.

6:23:10I'm tired too, but I would personally like

6:23:14to push through and that's just,

6:23:17that's my perspective.

6:23:18I'd like to get to a decision tonight

6:23:20on everything that's here.

6:23:22And if we all can work together recognizing that we are,

6:23:25it is late and we don't waste our time together,

6:23:29that includes me, that we can push through

6:23:31and get to a result.

6:23:32That's my position before the vote.

6:23:35Downer, go ahead.

6:23:36Just one comment.

6:23:37I mean, counselors can also, I mean,

6:23:41feedback to staff doesn't stop tonight.

6:23:43You can call up planning staff anytime

6:23:46in the next couple of weeks and tell them your feedback.

6:23:49You can ask your questions, comes for a work tomorrow

6:23:53with emails, you don't need to ask them all tonight.

6:23:55That's just a suggestion for people.

6:23:58It doesn't have to be like this.

6:24:00And then I'll call the vote on the referral.

6:24:02Alt, go ahead.

6:24:03It's a point of order because Councillor Caitlin

6:24:07and I think possibly Councillor Cronin,

6:24:10if we're not certain, have either motions

6:24:13or amendments associated with this,

6:24:15what is the impact on those if we refer or defer

6:24:21or if we only complete this one item

6:24:23or don't even complete it and lose quorum?

6:24:31Okay, so I'll answer that as the chair.

6:24:33It doesn't matter if there was,

6:24:35and I'm just speaking very procedurally,

6:24:37I'm neutral here, I'm Switzerland.

6:24:39It doesn't matter if there was a potential

6:24:41other motions coming.

6:24:42Procedurally, another motion has been tabled.

6:24:45So I have to acknowledge that motion.

6:24:48The motion is a referral.

6:24:49I have to call the vote on that.

6:24:51And then secondly, if it passes,

6:24:54and it will be added to another agenda item,

6:24:57and then it can be picked up there,

6:24:59and that can include any of the potential motions

6:25:01that might come forward at that time,

6:25:03even though I personally don't wanna do that,

6:25:05but whatever, okay?

6:25:07And then your second question was,

6:25:10what happens if we lose quorum?

6:25:11If we lose quorum, then the meeting has to stop.

6:25:14Thank you.

6:25:15Okay, thank you.

6:25:16Billings, I'm sorry, I saw your hand go up on the referral.

6:25:19Go ahead.

6:25:21I heard what Clerk said, Mr. Mayor,

6:25:23but I'm sure in the past,

6:25:24whether the verbiage procedural was to table or something,

6:25:29but I remember stopping and meeting this was years ago,

6:25:31and then we had it again, and it was a continuation.

6:25:35And there was no more delegations allowed.

6:25:37It was just a continuation of the meeting.

6:25:39So is Clerk sure there's nothing procedurally

6:25:44moving forward not to start a meeting over again

6:25:47with respect to allowing delegations?

6:25:53Okay, yeah, so just in conferring with the clerk,

6:25:57that is what's called a recess.

6:25:58We can recess the meeting,

6:26:00and then that way it's a continuation to another time,

6:26:02but it's as if we are paused,

6:26:04and then we just get up at another time.

6:26:06There has been also in the past,

6:26:08I recall, Councillor Billings,

6:26:09where we have moved a motion of referral

6:26:12and also added and that no delegations be allowed

6:26:16at the next time.

6:26:17So that way it doesn't open it all back up,

6:26:20that it feels like it's a continuation of the item.

6:26:22So there is that option procedurally as well,

6:26:25but it's either recess or a motion could be added

6:26:27that we continue this through the referral

6:26:29with no delegations allowed.

6:26:31Well, then Councillor O'Rourke could then add that to her motion.

6:26:38Yes, I could consider that as an amendment,

6:26:41I'm sorry, to the referral on the table, yes.

6:26:45Alt, did I answer your question?

6:26:47Basically I was going to move to recess, but that's fine.

6:26:51Yeah, I can't do a move to recess

6:26:53when I have a motion on the floor to refer.

6:26:56I have to deal with that motion.

6:26:58This is fun.

6:26:58I'm happy to withdraw.

6:26:59I'm happy to withdraw.

6:27:02Okay, I have to go through a process,

6:27:04O'Rourke is withdrawing the referral motion.

6:27:07Billings, you are removing your second.

6:27:11Yes, is there anyone against the removal of the referral?

6:27:16Hearing none, there are no motions on the floor at this time,

6:27:22other than the staff recommendation of receiving, yes.

6:27:25However, technically, yeah,

6:27:30technically that's on the floor right now, okay?

6:27:32We're back to the original motion,

6:27:33which was the motion to receive, okay?

6:27:36Alt.

6:27:37Move to recess until Wednesday, November the 20th at 6 p.m.

6:27:46This is where everyone pulls out calendars.

6:27:48That is true.

6:27:52Just one second, Kara, just one second, I'm so sorry.

6:28:01Yeah, so I guess I would just caution everybody about this

6:28:05because there's also requirements under the Planning Act

6:28:09for informing and notice provisions.

6:28:14And so to just kind of pick random dates may not meet

6:28:18that ability to do that.

6:28:21So it really is a clerk issue on scheduling.

6:28:29We could look to leave it with the clerks

6:28:34and their determination and or consider adding

6:28:38to the council meeting at the end of this month as an example.

6:28:43Then move to time indefinite.

6:28:54Okay, so yeah, yeah.

6:28:58I'm just getting peppered here with lots

6:29:02of procedural stuff, which is cool.

6:29:04I love it after 10 years, it's great.

6:29:06So I have a referral on the floor from Alt

6:29:14to not a referral, sorry, an amendment to recess the meeting.

6:29:19And I would prefer that it not use the terminology

6:29:23indefinite, I think you just said.

6:29:26I think it would be to recess the meeting

6:29:32and to resume the meeting at the discretion of the clerk

6:29:40or something like that with the arrangement

6:29:42from the clerk, something like that.

6:29:44That's brilliant group editing, perfect.

6:29:47Okay.

6:29:48You'll have to take it up.

6:29:49And you'll have to email that

6:29:50even though I make it up on the spot.

6:29:53You'll have to email that to clerks, please,

6:29:55if you don't mind and who is seconding that?

6:30:01Oh, is there no one seconding?

6:30:03Oh, okay, quas and the seconding.

6:30:13And we're going to pause as we wait for that motion

6:30:14to come into clerks.

6:30:27It should be there soon, Mayor Guthrie.

6:30:55Sorry, I just need to put my mic on

6:30:57to confirm some clarity with the clerks.

6:31:00I just want to make sure we are recessing this item

6:31:04because I'm under the assumption

6:31:06that we can't recess the entire meeting

6:31:10because if we recess the entire meeting,

6:31:12then we have bylaws and stuff at the end of the night

6:31:13that might need to be signed by me, right?

6:31:16So I just want to confer with the clerks.

6:31:20Is a recess only in order for an entire meeting

6:31:23or can we recess the item?

6:31:26When you recess the meeting, Mr. Mayor,

6:31:27through you too, you're recessing

6:31:30the remainder of the meeting.

6:31:32Yeah, I thought so.

6:31:33So everything that is still outstanding.

6:31:45Did everyone hear that?

6:31:49Okay, I'm going to call the vote when it,

6:31:51sorry, clerk's has it, I think it's coming up on the screen.

6:31:55Move to recess until a time to be determined by clerks.

6:31:58Okay.

6:32:00And is there anything further on that

6:32:01before I call the vote?

6:32:03Or work?

6:32:05So Mayor Guthrie, if we recess,

6:32:09then the planning applications that we decided earlier

6:32:11in the meeting won't be enshrined in bylaw, right?

6:32:16Correct.

6:32:16So we made decisions and those need to proceed.

6:32:19That's not the intention.

6:32:21That's right.

6:32:22That's why I brought it up.

6:32:30Okay, I'm going to call the vote.

6:32:32I am going to state again,

6:32:35and maybe I'm just back into my old band days

6:32:37when I used to stay up until three in the morning anyways.

6:32:39So I'm feeling okay,

6:32:41but I understand and respect everyone else's opinion

6:32:44because it is late and I fully respect that,

6:32:46but I'm going to call the vote.

6:32:47I'm not going to support this

6:32:48because I'd like to hammer it out.

6:32:51So I'll call the vote now.

6:32:53Is anyone against recessing at this time?

6:32:59Only three.

6:33:01No, sorry.

6:33:02We got Keaton and Koran and Guller and Guthrie and Downer.

6:33:12So that is five.

6:33:14And those against, sorry, those four,

6:33:16could you please raise your hand?

6:33:18Richardson, O'Rourke, Klassen,

6:33:26Gibson, Billings, that passes.

6:33:32Yeah, so that's, that's a, hey, that's the way it is.

6:33:37We are considered recessed until a determination

6:33:42of picking this meeting back up by the clerk.

6:33:46If I could have order in the room, please.

6:33:48If I could have order in the room.

6:33:50If I could have order in the room.

6:33:51Thank you, everybody.

6:33:53I would, I would just say,

6:33:57state out loud to the clerks that potentially,

6:34:03you might want to consider decoupling some of the issues

6:34:07from the rest of the agenda.

6:34:08In other words, maybe there's parts of the agenda

6:34:11that we did fulfill tonight from a bylaw perspective

6:34:15that can be added to an upcoming quicker meeting

6:34:18where those things can be ratified by council.

6:34:21And then this item can be put on potentially

6:34:25the end of the month meeting as an example.

6:34:27Okay, so we can still try to attack this issue.

6:34:31And so with that, we will pick it back up

6:34:35with basically a motion of receive on the floor.

6:34:39That's kind of exactly where we will pick it back up.

6:34:41And then we can move into other issues

6:34:45that might be tabled around parks and stuff like that.

6:34:49Okay, we're recessed until another time.

6:34:52Thank you, everyone.

6:34:53Bye-bye.