Council Planning

12:28Okay, I'd like to call the meeting to order for our planning meeting. It's Tuesday, February the 11th, 2025. It is four o'clock and

12:38To kick things off right away. Just ask if you could please stand if you're able as we recognize our national anthem great

14:11Thanks, everyone. Just continue just a moment of silent reflection

14:26Thank you and now for our territorial acknowledgement as we gather let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live work here in Guelph

14:33The city built over rich indigenous histories

14:36We're guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land the people who live here today and the generations to come

14:43For actions today can move us towards reconciliation. We should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude

14:50This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands in a place of refuge for many peoples over time

14:55But more specifically the Anwarak and the Honolenshoni

14:59This land is held as the treaty lands and territory with the Mississaugas of the credit First Nation and Guelph lies directly

15:05adjacent to the Haldim track and as part of a long-established traditional hunting grounds for the six nations of the Grand River

15:12Many First Nations Inuit and Métis people who have come from across Turtle Island called Guelph home today

15:19Thank you, is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest or any general nature there of Councillor Caron?

15:28Yes, through you, Mr. Mayor just consistency with previous items on the agenda 30 the matter of 37 Christy Lane

15:37It has been correlated to potential capital projects in my department through my employer great. Thank you and

15:48So when we get to that we'll certainly

15:52Recognize that moment for you to turn off the camera and what not okay

15:56Anything else don't hear or see anybody and just official regrets. We do have from Councillor Clausen today, okay

16:04With that we do have a consent

16:07For 22 James Street East it is an objection to notice the intention to designate and so it is in front of us there

16:18I'm wondering is there anyone that wants that pulled or may I look to a member of Council to move and and second that

16:28Thank you moved by moved. I'm assuming it's moved by Koran. Yep

16:32Anyone willing to second. I think you boosted till anything further on that item

16:39No, okay. I'll call the votes anyone against

16:43It's nobody that's unanimous. Thank you

16:45Hitting us up right away with an item for discussion. We're gonna have just a presentation

16:52In regards to the Cambridge to Union passenger rail connection

16:57It's an initial business case and concept design

17:01And so we have some staff coming on down here

17:10Terry and Steve welcome, and I think you'll introduce our guests from Waterloo. I guess a region so thank you for coming

17:18Steve I will turn it over to you

17:22Okay, thank you

17:24Good afternoon mayor Guthrie and members of council

17:27Excited to be here with you today with Orianna

17:32Aguas

17:33Sorry, I practiced

17:36She's a project manager on the planning team from the region of Waterloo

17:40Today we're presenting to you the findings of the initial business case

17:44Completed by the region for connecting Cambridge to Toronto with passenger rail through Guelph a

17:50Quick history lesson. It was 1959 the last time there was train service between

17:56Cambridge and Guelph well it wasn't Cambridge back then and the area now known as Cambridge Rache had any passenger rail service in

18:031971 so it's easy to understand why they're looking into this in

18:082009 staff from the region began studying the reintroduction of passenger rail service

18:14Extending go passenger service from Milton has significant implementation barriers with the track being owned by the Canadian Pacific Railway

18:23Regional staff have been engaged with Guelph since 2019 on a proposal to use CN's lightly

18:31Used freight track between Preston and Guelph

18:35Connecting to the Metrolinx main line at Alma Street

18:39This proposal does not include any additional stations in Guelph nor does it trigger any grade separations

18:46Along the corridor within our city limits

18:49The proposed rail service introduction between Cambridge and Guelph aligns with the city's transportation master plan

18:56Guelph transits future ready action plan and our

19:012024 to 2027 Guelph strategic plan future ready by supporting the building of a

19:08Transportation system that works for everyone in our community and offers a variety of travel options to suit different needs and abilities

19:16This initial business case received approval from the region of Waterloo Council on August 2024 and

19:22Since that time staff from the region have been seeking support from the municipalities along the proposed route a

19:29Resolution from that August 2024 regional council meeting was for municipalities along the proposed route to offer a letter of support

19:36Of the initial business case to Metrolinx to consider for future provincial funding

19:43With that in mind, I'm pleased to introduce Orianna project manager for this business case to

19:49Present more information on it and we'll be pleased to take questions afterwards

19:57Thank you, Steve. Hello everybody. I'm Orianna Aguas from the region of Waterloo

20:01I'm a project manager specifically for the Cambridge to Union passenger go rail service and

20:07Today, I'll just speak to what this work what the results of this work

20:13Steve earlier talked about the history behind this project and the reasoning why we chose to

20:19Study further the alignment through Guelph to the kitchen or go line and then to Toronto

20:25So that is what we did in the IBC between last year and the end

20:29between 2023 and 2024

20:32This project aligns very much with our strategic plan for the region of Waterloo 2023 to 2027

20:41It aligns with all the pillars we have on the on the screen, but just for an example

20:46For the climate aligned growth. We are specifically trying to foster car alternative options and currently between Guelph and Cambridge

20:55The main the main mode of transportation is the car. So this would be an alternative to that

21:04Why does project in general?

21:06Well, Cambridge is part of one of the largest unserved commuter corridors by go rail

21:11Cambridge residents are four times more likely to travel to commute to Toronto for work than anywhere else in the region in

21:19The region of Waterloo the map here shows

21:23The go the existing go rail network as well as proposed service the proposed services on the dash line

21:30You can also see tables on this map

21:33That show examples of locations with similar or lower current and forecasted populations to Cambridge

21:40That have go train stations already or are planned to have one so we can clearly clearly see that Cambridge is missing a station

21:48For an overview of the service we can see it on the screen, but in Cambridge

21:55There is a new proposed station near the intersection of Pinebush Eagle and Hesbilar and

22:01We refer to this as the Pinebush Pinebush station

22:05At this location there is a key opportunity for a transit oriented community as the existing land use is sown to redevelop

22:12So there is opportunities to develop this around the new transit station

22:16The service would would run hourly or better

22:20And it would take about 15 minutes to wealth

22:23In Guelph I would use the existing station and I would have an

22:27Integrated platform so there is more seamless transfers to the Kitchener goal line in this image

22:35I really like this map because it shows how the new service the proposed service would close that triangle of higher order

22:42transit between Kitchener Cambridge and Guelph and

22:46Also another reason of why the service is good for Guelph and especially is because we found through this work

22:53That there is already an existing market that goes between Cambridge and Guelph that this service would

23:00Directly benefit on the slide we see some highlights of the initial business gates

23:10So for the initial business case we looked at four options in addition to the do nothing or business as usual option and

23:18Some of the options are single track and some of the options are a single track with a siding and this would be too

23:24For increased speeds increased frequency of the trains

23:28The results of the IBC show that the project strongly aligns with existing policy and plans of Cambridge Guelph the region on the province of Ontario

23:37All the options have greater economic benefits to society than economic costs

23:42When you compare that to the no rail service

23:46Beyond the initial capital investment all options require subsidy as operation and maintenance costs are not upset by revenue

23:54For the 60 year life cycle however, this is a typical result for a transit project of this type

24:00they usually require some sort of

24:04Government investment and

24:07Ultimately the

24:08deliverability in operations case found that the project is deliverable and there is no major

24:14stoppers as

24:18Part of the project we use the the project team use different tools to engage the public including in-person meetings

24:24Virtual meetings and then the online survey we had a we had an in-person meeting here in Guelph

24:31Steve also helped with that and

24:33Because of all this outreach the effort resulted in over 600 touch points

24:37So that means we had 600 different ways that the public gave us feedback for this project and

24:44Overall we found the public to be very supportive of this project and was asking us to deliver the project as fast as possible

24:52We found them through the poll that most people would prefer to arrive at the station

24:57Using something other than the car and this was specifically specifically for Cambridge

25:01But in Guelph the station is already in an area where it's easy easily accessible by not only card

25:07But also transit in other modes because it's in downtown Guelph

25:12The public also said that in the meantime because again the public reflected the findings of the IBC

25:19That there is already an existing market between Guelph and

25:22Cambridge that they would like to actually see a bus service before the before there is a service for rail

25:29Again, the public reflected our findings that there is an existing market and there is an existing need between Guelph and Cambridge

25:37Not just Cambridge to Toronto, which is an interesting finding

25:42Some of the concerns the public noted were concerns including congestion and Hesbler

25:47so this is in Cambridge parking noise safety and

25:49In related specifically to the city of Guelph was the transfer so people were concerned about the time it would take to transfer them

25:57But all these could be addressed through proper design timetabling and planning for better local

26:03Transit and active transportation connections and that would be in Cambridge

26:07So the public also suggested more other locations for the station in Cambridge and this is an ongoing

26:15consultation with the public in Cambridge

26:19Right now we are going forward with the Pinebush Pinebush station

26:23But there is future work that may look at all their stations stations as well

26:30So in summary Cambridge is one of the largest commuter communities outside of the GTA that doesn't have a rail service

26:38There's strong alignment with regional plans as well as Steve mentioned the alignment with Guelph plans and policy

26:45It would serve if the proposed service goes forward

26:48It would serve an existing market between Cambridge and Guelph with excellent ridership potential

26:52There's benefit the benefits to the community are larger than the economic costs with reasonable capital costs and

26:59There's overwhelming public support with over 600 engagement points and most of them being

27:05In favor of the project for the next steps Steve already talked about some of them

27:13and the region of Waterloo has already

27:17endorsed the findings of this project and told us to move forward with seeking the endorsement of the

27:23Involved area municipalities including the city of wealth and that's what that's the step that we're at right now

27:29After we're done with this. We're looking to

27:32We're looking at the best way to package all these endorsements from the different area municipalities and send it to Metrolinx so that

27:39We can continue to ask for that support

27:42Thank you

27:48Well, thank you

27:50Thank you very much and

27:53We we appreciate

27:55You know the whole concept and I know that as you said our staff have been kind of working

28:01Alongside and following this for some time now. So it's nice to start to see it in front of us live

28:07I did have a just before the questions start

28:11Councillor Alton and Bousatil were willing to to move in second

28:16This to put on the floor for us for the endorsement and the recommendations in front of us

28:21So I'll do that officially. Thank you

28:24And then is there any questions now at all in regards to this before we look to call the vote?

28:29I'll go all to Gibson and Keaton

28:33Very much mayor Guthrie. I'll quickly explain my comments while I support it

28:38I do think that first of all, it's an incredible

28:41Foundation for reinforcing the need for QA all day go to vote Guelph under the region of Waterloo it

28:48confirms regional transport in region of Waterloo and in Wellington County the economic benefit to Guelph is is fairly obvious

28:56As we move further down the the rail line to to greater community rail transit

29:03There is some potential disadvantage that I would like to ask about and and I believe that's to to mr.

29:10Anderson there is a level crossing at the Lafarge property at Silver Creek and I was wondering if he could please comment on that one

29:25Through the mayor to council at all

29:28Can I just confirm are you speaking of the the crossing that's existing more?

29:34For lack of a better word by the manner

29:37Yes by the manner. Yes, okay

29:42Famous local landmark

29:44In and I guess council in terms of the commenting like the the IBC doesn't identify any need for any grade separations

29:53I'm should the service be funded and introduced

29:57Transport Canada has very clear guidelines on the controls that would be required at the crossing and we would be

30:05implementing what is required from Transport Canada

30:09Based on the combination of vehicles and trains

30:12Thank you. Thank you Gibson, Kate and then or work

30:19Thank you through you mr. Mayor. Thanks for the presentation. It's an interesting business case. I hadn't thought about that before

30:27Can I just ask?

30:29The impetus to go from Cambridge to Guelph and not Cambridge to Milton

30:32Is that is that because the train the go train doesn't run up the run up beside the 401 to Cambridge at this point?

30:39Like it would be a track it would be a brand new track through there

30:42I'm just trying to understand that the commuter the justification for commuter from Cambridge to Union station

30:49Right now. They've only got about a 20 minute drive down to Milton to get on a go train

30:53Which is much faster and fewer stops than the Guelph

30:56To Union station. So I'm just wondering is it is it justified?

31:01Because of the desire to go from Cambridge to Guelph

31:04Or Cambridge to downtown Toronto

31:12So through you mayor

31:15So

31:17And when we were talking about the history we did go back to 2009 when we looked at both options of

31:23Going through Milton and then to Toronto versus Guelph to Toronto and there was some

31:30There were some findings for that from that as the work went forward and especially in the feasibility study that we did in 2021

31:37That found that connecting connecting through wealth is competitive travel times for people in Cambridge

31:44and

31:45competitive to a car and competitive to what the mental

31:50Milton line was showing

31:52but it had the additional benefits of having the

31:56markets before

31:58Before Toronto

32:00So we did see more ridership going to other stations in the kitchen or go line from

32:06Cambridge

32:07Then in the Milton goal line because the mental Milton goal line goes through Miss Saga and then pretty much

32:13Destination would be just Toronto

32:15Whereas in the Guelph line we have other midpoint destinations that would attract more ridership

32:21So there's a better case for that. It also aligns better with the regional policy of having

32:26less longer, you know longer commutes and having more compact communities

32:33And also because

32:35The feasibility study did talk about that market that already exists between wealth and Cambridge

32:40That is, you know sufficient ridership enough to support something like this faster

32:47The other thing is that the wealth

32:49option is actually easier to deliver because

32:53In conversations with the rail owners of the lines

32:56The CN has been more

32:58Amiable to our those negotiations

33:01Of course nothing has been sent in stone because everything is still pretty new

33:04And more work needs to be done, but we find that they are more willing to you know, share the track and do things and do different

33:12options if there was a passenger

33:14rail line on the on those

33:17Okay, thank you. Just another follow-up

33:19I haven't ridden the train from Guelph to downtown Toronto in a few years

33:22But when I did I remember there being only three trains a day there and back was your business case predicated on the all-day two way

33:29like the multiple trips

33:31To and from union from Guelph

33:34I just I want to know because there's there's a train every 25 minutes in Milton to downtown Toronto

33:40So there's a lot more opportunity to miss a train catch a train and so I'm just

33:47I'm just dialoguing with you

33:49But maybe if you could answer that one last one is it is it was the business case predicated on all day two way?

33:54Which we all want

33:56Three mayor. Uh, yes the business case took results from the preliminary design

34:01business case for the extension of the kitchen or goal line for the expansion of the kitchen and goal line

34:06And also just to add a little bit to that

34:09For the Milton line, especially at the time of the feasibility study in 2021

34:13There wasn't a commitment from Metrolinx to expand service and the Milton line is already at capacity

34:19So even though, you know more people coming in from Cambridge would even saturate that more

34:25Okay, so if I'm just clear and I'm going to support it

34:28No questions asked, but well, there are a couple questions asked

34:31But the the business case that you're

34:35Feeding into is predicated on all day two way from wealth

34:39Okay, so the one has to come before the other before before we are competitive with Milton's

34:44Train number of trains frequency of trains. We still have to have all the way two way to it. Okay. Um, great. Thanks very much

34:51This is all part of long-term planning. So a nice nice presentation. Thank you

34:57Thanks, Kate and then a look

34:59It's for you, Mr. Mayor

35:01First, I love it. I hear a lot

35:04In the online mom groups about people wanting to be able to go back and forth to Cambridge

35:08And just do their shopping and whatnot with their kids and finding it kind of impossible without a car

35:15But I was wondering if you had looked into

35:18How this benefits the healthcare network because we have a lot of specialists that are in Cambridge

35:23And because we don't have them we're not kind of big enough to have every type of doctor locally

35:29Um

35:31In any kind of studies on how this connects

35:33The the healthcare networks between us and the other cities

35:40Through you, mayor, we haven't looked at that

35:43But that would be a possibility that you could add in a future business case to the external

35:48Uh benefits when you're looking at economic costs versus economic benefits. So far we haven't done that work yet

35:56Thank you very much

36:00And oh rork, thank you

36:02Thank you, mayor Guthrie through you to uh, um, miss Aguas a really exciting case study

36:09I just want to confirm so if I've understood the report correctly the land is already

36:15Owned by another railway, right? So it's about sharing an existing rail bed. So though there's no land acquisition

36:21There's not necessarily environmental assessments that need to happen like this

36:25This could happen because we are maximizing the use of an existing rail lines. That correct

36:31So the real three you may or the rail line does exist already

36:36So it does need some upgrades. So there there's investment needed for that

36:41There's also at this point we are looking at, you know, the short to medium term being functional with a single track

36:48But then if you want if you you know, if you want to expand in the future for longer term future

36:53Horizons, there might be the need for a second track at that point. You might be looking at

36:58Aquaring line, but that is again like

37:01We haven't done enough work to understand those what those impacts are in terms of environmental assessments

37:08typically if there is any

37:11Any changes to roads crossings there has to be an environmental assessment

37:16so for

37:17inside of well city of wealth

37:20As Steve said we have that's not

37:23something part of as part of this work, but mostly as part of the expansion of the

37:27kitchen or the line expansion

37:31But we do have

37:34Another crossing that may need to be a great separation and that's

37:38Outside of the city of wealth and that would need an EA

37:41But again, the work is still too early to know exactly what the impacts are and what is needed

37:46We need another set of business cases

37:49Well, thank you. And I asked the question not as an objection as I'm excited because if it was a brand new

37:55Rail line

37:57And you didn't have the land acquisition and you didn't have all those plans then we would be in a completely different scenario

38:02But this is an existing rail line which makes it actually possible, right and beneficial

38:08so

38:09Just want to confirm also through you merga 3 that

38:13That this is an endorsement of the of the case to metro links

38:17And then the financing would happen from metro links. Is that correct?

38:23through you mayor, so

38:26Right now we the region's position is that metro links takes over the rest of the work

38:31Including, you know, when it comes to funding and what avenues that is going to be

38:35so

38:37At like at this point, we don't know what the funding avenue is going to be but it would be metro links, you know

38:44It would be their job to figure that out and that is because

38:48this is an inter regional rail which, you know falls outside of the

38:53City boundaries and also a set of the region boundaries and that's why

38:57The letter of support is to get much links to take up on the work

39:00Perfect through you and mayor guys for my last question

39:04So i'm curious about the potential for a bus

39:08To actually start with that to commute. So what would the timeline be on

39:13On a potential bus connection because I think it'd be really exciting for the University of gulf and for connoisseur college

39:19That's going to have a campus downtown. So

39:22I'm sure that's already part of the business case as well

39:25So what's the timeline on the bus and then what are the next steps after you have the endorsements of all the

39:31the adjoining municipalities

39:36Through you mayor for the timeline of the bus. This is again metro links's work

39:40Because metro links is the one that decides where go buses what new go routes go

39:46So as part of the work we are doing as the region is

39:50And this endorsement is to package up all the area municipalities endorsement letters and send it to metro links

39:57Talking about the results of the iBC

39:58But also the results of the public engagement that shows that there is a need for a bus there

40:03So that would be another you know section of the ask we have for metro links

40:08So therefore we don't know timelines. It would be

40:11at metro links's, you know

40:15Timeline at that point. Okay. Thanks very much

40:19Thank you, and I have two more

40:22And I'll go with two and then billings

40:27Thank you through you mr. Mayor and to our friend from the region. Welcome to qualf council

40:32I I'm just very curious because at the end of the day for us what matters is just how we communicate some of the potential disruptions to our residents and

40:42And a lot of the work obviously isn't within our jurisdiction, but I'm just very curious

40:47How did you guys curate the four options in front of us?

40:52for the track upgrades

40:55And how did you get to that?

40:57conclusion that

40:59We need this amount of sidings for two trains and

41:03And do you guys anticipate there being any potential work in

41:07Guelph?

41:09Yeah, uh, is there a preliminary role plan that was put together to scope out the locations or

41:16Yeah, I'm just curious. What is the rationale for these options?

41:21Three you may or so the options

41:24Initially in the in the 2021 feasibility study. We looked at options that also had double track through the

41:31through majority of the line

41:34But that initial work showed that you know the double tracking

41:38Had more impedances that would make the project be longer and more costly

41:43So that's why in the initial business case we dropped the double track option with the caveat that you know

41:49In the longer term if we think about expansion that could be a possibility

41:53so

41:54because of that we were left with the options of single track which is

41:58Basically, we were trying to see how

42:02How do we do this to make sure that this project can get in service the fastest?

42:07And so single tracking because it already exists there

42:10It would just be a matter of upgrading the tracking

42:13Is the answer to that as opposed to having to do, you know property acquisition and everything that comes with double track

42:20Um, could you repeat the second part of your question? Sorry? Yeah, um, I'm just curious. Do you know where?

42:28If we just if you decide that we need to go ahead and put in some new sidings

42:33Do you know where those locations would roughly be?

42:36Just based off of the route

42:40Through you mayor the location of the siding is something that we have

42:45noted as needs more work in the initial business case

42:48but

42:49currently it is

42:51for you know for in terms for calculations of time

42:56Of travel time and how long it takes for the initial business case work. It is somewhere outside of

43:02You know it's somewhere near cambridge. So it's outside of the city wealth limits

43:07But it is stated in the initial business case that the location that we used for the travel times

43:13Um calculations is not optimized yet

43:17So more work needs to to do that to make sure that we find the location that make that minimizes travel time

43:24for in the line

43:25So that also gives us the result that in the future when more work is done

43:30You can actually maybe reduce that 15 minute to a little bit less

43:35Because of the location of that siding if it's optimized

43:39So the the sharon says we don't know yet

43:42Okay, no, that's good for us and I and I'm aware of that as well

43:46I just think residents need to be aware in the future when this comes forward that you know, there's adequate consultation

43:54That's being had especially with landowners

43:57Uh, I'm I'm thinking especially along white law road because there's a lot of undeveloped lands there that could be impacted

44:05So it's just speaking to long-term planning here, right? So but thank you. I appreciate this. Yeah

44:13Thank you. And finally we have uh councillor billings

44:17To you worship, um, I just wanted to get back on the car. So whether it's upgrading the track or double track

44:25The thinking is is that that metro links would would pay for that, correct?

44:34three you may or

44:36The funding model is not established yet. So

44:39you know metro links projects

44:42promises projects sometimes have partnerships with

44:45The count the municipalities and the federal government. So at this point, we don't know

44:51But it would be, you know metro links figuring out the funding model

44:59Okay, if I can just add their councillor buildings like the

45:03Initial ask is that the province fund this and the funding is 100 percent through the province

45:09And that's that's what's in the business case. And that's what we're endorsing here. Well, potentially endorsing here today

45:16Um, so I just wanted to to state that there there's no expectation at this point that the city of wealth is going to be opening the wallet

45:23Uh for this project

45:26Okay, so through your worship then from whatever motions from the region

45:31We have what's in front of us for guava. I mean, I'm supportive in principle. I just didn't want any cost to the city

45:37So in any of these motions coming, uh,

45:41Forward that's going to

45:43Be forwarded on to metro links in the province. Is there is it ever stated in there?

45:49At no cost to the region or no cost to the city

45:52Like how like how is that?

45:57Really being communicated because I'm hearing yes, but

46:01So through the mayor to councillor buildings, I think

46:09Um, the key for us with the business case is is the position Steve just articulated in the sense that the expectation is that metro links takes on the cost to provide the

46:17Interregional transportation

46:18I think what we're hearing from our counterparts at the regional war lu is that certainly through the

46:23Course of due diligence and time and process that there are going to be moments in the process

46:28Where there might be things up for negotiation

46:31But that is so far into the future that it's really difficult to comment on that Guelph's position would continue to be

46:37That these are provincial costs

46:39And if there ever was a moment where say a capital improvement was required in Guelph

46:43It would absolutely be brought to council for consideration through a future budget process and for future discussion

46:48So I think that's the most we can offer from a certainty perspective at this time

46:52Other than to say today's endorsement is is in principle behind the concept and behind the concept that the province should pay for it

46:59And that includes your expectation that includes also the the bus service that's being asked for to come first

47:07Through the mayor to councillor buildings. That's correct. Okay. Thank you for your hope

47:12Great and actually my apologies last is a councillor Pusatil. She's volunteering to drive the bus

47:20I am going to drive this

47:22Thank you very much and through the mayor. This is just a very basic question in the proposal. It talks about

47:28utilizing the existing

47:31passenger line rail line between Guelph station and Alma and my question is the line that is the CN line between Alma and Cambridge

47:42All I can say is gauge. Is it the right track or does that track have to change to accommodate

47:48a passenger train versus a freight train?

47:52Through you mayor the track has to be upgraded to accommodate passenger rail

47:58Thank you

47:59Great seeing nothing further

48:08I'll just say ditto to all of my colleagues

48:11And it's already been moved and seconded

48:15A great a great opportunity and a great partnership with with the region and others. So

48:21keep us in the loop and

48:24Hopefully we can see something like this to come to fruition for our communities plural

48:29So, thank you very much. I'll call the vote then as anyone against

48:35Nobody that's unanimous. So put that in your letter to Metrolinx that it was unanimous. Okay, great. Thank you very much

48:43Moving right along

48:46We have a presentation now on 37 Kristi Lane. This is the objection to notice

48:51Of intention to designate

48:56Jack Malin is coming up here our own staff member from our own heritage planner

49:03No delegations just have a correspondence there as well attached

49:08But Jack I will turn it over to you for the presentation. Go right ahead. Thank you, Mr. Mayor

49:14I'll be very brief tonight council

49:16The University of Guelph has submitted an objection to the bill

49:19The University of Guelph has submitted an objection to council's intention to designate 37 Kristi Lane the glass conservatory on the University of Guelph campus

49:28In their notice of objection the university noted that they were objecting to the designation as a protective measure in case

49:36A dispute arises in how the designation by-law is drafted

49:40Or a dispute arises in the issuance of a demolition permit

49:44The university argues that since a demolition permit was approved the passing of any designation by-law is unnecessary

49:52Heritage staff are recommending that council approve the designation by-law

49:57Staff are committed to working collaboratively with the university

50:02As they salvage and retain the steel for future use in a commemorative garden

50:07The issuance of a notice of intention to designate has already ensured that the conservatory is carefully deconstructed rather than just demolished

50:17And that salvageable steel is retained and conserved

50:22A designation by-law will ensure the continued retention of the steel

50:27And when the university is ready

50:29To proceed with a commemorative garden heritage staff will be involved in that project through the heritage permit process

50:35As written the by-law ensures that the university has the flexibility it is requested to deconstruct the conservatory

50:44And to build a commemorative garden

50:47While also offering assurance that the salvage steel

50:50Will not be disposed of and that heritage staff will be involved in the development of a commemorative structure

50:57I recommend that you pass the by-law and thank you for your time. I'm happy to answer any questions

51:03Great. Thanks jack. Appreciate you and your presentation

51:08counselor Downer has agreed to move

51:12The recommendation and ororac has agreed to

51:15second it

51:16Is there any questions or can I look to?

51:19Call the vote. Okay or orac with a question

51:22Thank you. My god through you to mr. Malin just a comment you made at the end there where the city is going to be involved in the plans for

51:29the commemorative garden

51:31So my understanding is that this is not meant to be onerous that if there's no requirement to retain the steel

51:38That then there's no designation and all of that information about the rutherford conservatory just kind of vanishes into the ether

51:45Right like that you have to designate

51:48So that the history is recognized on an ongoing basis

51:52But can you just confirm for me like the the city's intention is not to be heavy-handed or directive in this way

51:58Can you just give us some comfort in terms of the relationship that you expect to see with the university?

52:10Through the mayor

52:11Our intention is absolutely not to be heavy-handed. We're actually we're looking forward to seeing

52:17What the university proposes and providing feedback and advice

52:22The university has also committed

52:25to

52:26bringing

52:27Whatever they propose to the heritage committee for feedback and advice, but that's what I intend to

52:33ensure that a portion of the steel at least is reused and

52:40To provide advice and feedback but not to be heavy-handed

52:44Okay, so through you America through the university has told us they want to do a competition with some of their landscaping architecture

52:51architecture students

52:53So again like can just give us some comfort that it's going to happen

52:58in a semester time frame when the time comes right so that

53:03They can execute on their vision and we can protect the history. It's it's going to be a collaborative thing not a

53:08onerous thing

53:10Through the mayor. Yes, we've already communicated with the university what that process might look like and I'm excited at the

53:17Prospect of a design competition that would fit within a semester

53:20terrific, thanks

53:23thank you

53:24Councillor chude you had a comment or a question. Sorry go ahead

53:28Yeah, just a quick question and quick comment through you mr. Meir

53:33Just going back to some of the concerns that were put raised by my colleague

53:39We just need to understand relationships are fragile at the moment and there's a lot of transition happening

53:46especially at the university and

53:49I think we just would like to hear from you just assurances through the heritage permit process of that when that

53:57takes place process wise that

54:00You know

54:02I just need to understand how that process will be played out in a future scenario that

54:10You know they're going through the demolition and they're going to go through the construction. Can you just provide some assurances?

54:16for us

54:18Through the mayor so the the way the designation by-law is written only lists salvageable steel

54:24as the heritage attribute

54:26It doesn't list building form or any architectural details like that. And so the university has a wide degree of flexibility

54:35To reuse this material how it sees fit

54:40Thank you. And I think just a comment if you can continue to engage with them and

54:45Work with for to find a champion within the university on this so that it could be moved along

54:52Seamlessly, I think that would that's everyone's wish for this process. Thank you

54:59Great. Thank you. And just before I call the vote just to recognize that Councillor Caron did remove herself from this item

55:06I just want to make sure that's publicly stated. Okay

55:09So I'll call the vote then as anyone against

55:14No one that's unanimous. So thank you very much

55:17And if someone could nudge Councillor Caron to maybe

55:22Come back on and join us

55:24We're now under the public meetings to hear applications under under section 17 34 and 51 of the planning act

55:32And this item is described as the public meeting report

55:36For downtown building heights the draft official plan amendments

55:41Um, so just as a heads up to everyone as a huge reminder here

55:45This is not a decision moment on this at all. This is this is continuing feedback

55:50Options for our staff to hear from us now

55:54Also here from the public in a more formal setting. We've got

55:59Some delegations. We've got some correspondence

56:02There's been a lot of engagement touch points on this to this date

56:07And they've kind of all formed an opportunity for this draft that's in front of us now

56:12And so now this is a more formal setting as I said

56:14We can just give a little bit of feedback for our staff to take away

56:17As the motion is to receive only

56:20So with that, let's kick things off with a presentation from our staff

56:25And then we'll move into uh delegations

56:29Brenna and Stacy, I'll I'll turn it over to you. Good afternoon. Mayor Guthrie and members of council

56:50As well as other staff and members of the public who have joined us in in person and online tonight

56:57My name is Brenna McKinnon

56:59And I'm project manager in planning services

57:03I'm joined by stacey

57:05Lachlan who's the project manager on this project

57:10Our one member of our consulting team, Jonathan Tinney who will

57:14Speak in the presentation as well as well as Chris Tawaki and James Goodrum

57:20Who are project sponsors?

57:24We introduced you to this project through the special meeting of council in December of last year

57:31We're here to bring uh, we're a little excited actually to bring you uh

57:36And present to you the draft official plan amendment

57:40Tonight so I will go through a number of of slides followed by Jonathan and then I will uh wrap up on on the next steps

58:05Since receiving council's direction to proceed with this study

58:08In december of last year

58:10We have been working, uh very well and collaboratively with other ongoing projects in the downtown and citywide particularly related

58:19to the housing work

58:21The ongoing downtown renewal work as well as the cons a heritage conservation district rick

58:27So members of this team sit on those project teams and vice versa

58:34I just want to reiterate that this study

58:37Allines with the strategic plan objective to improve housing supply

58:42And assists in meeting the city's housing pledge

58:48Tonight's meeting is the statutory meeting for the official plan amendment

58:52No decisions will be made tonight. We're expecting some some feedback

58:58And that the recommended official plan amendment or anticipating on bringing the recommended official plan amendment back to you for a decision

59:07in early spring

59:09We ask that interested members of the public

59:12Um, if they wish to recoup receive

59:15Other additional notices or information. There is of course, uh, you can register on on the have your say page for updated information

59:23As well as register with clerks if you wish to receive notices of any decisions

59:29and that

59:31Email of course is clerks at gulf dot c a or by calling

59:36509

59:38837

59:395603

59:44So a little bit of background on the downtown secondary plan

59:48Stacey did provide that in in december as well, but just to

59:52rehash a little bit the downtown secondary plan was approved in

59:57In 2012 this project

1:00:02Was really initiated on the basis of the minister's decision that was made in april of 2023 on

1:00:09the

1:00:10OPA 80 or the

1:00:11Are the city's op where the minister more or less issued a kind of a blanket

1:00:19Height decision of 23 stories

1:00:21Everywhere when the opportunity arose, of course for the minister to reconsider that and roll back that

1:00:28Council in december of 2023 said no, let's look look at a study done

1:00:34by guelph for guelph

1:00:37So the existing height permissions in the downtown

1:00:41Just for uh some memory

1:00:44Currently taller buildings are developed at the periphery of the downtown or in the lower lying areas

1:00:51The maximum building height is 18 stories

1:00:55Thereby more or less prohibiting construction

1:00:58Of any building to look higher

1:01:01Than the basilica of our lady maculita or the basilica

1:01:04There's five

1:01:07Five key view corridors that are protected that you can see on this

1:01:13map here

1:01:15And most buildings in the protected historic core

1:01:20Have a permitted range of heights between

1:01:23Three and and six stories. So that's generally speaking north of the tracks

1:01:27I'm going to turn it over to jonathan tinny from svn architects and planners who will give a bit of introduction to himself and

1:01:40the next steps

1:01:46Excuse me. Thanks, brenna

1:01:48In doing this work, we were engaged by staff and by the city late in 2024

1:01:54The aim of this work was really to move relatively quickly to bring together the

1:01:58draft policies that

1:02:00You folks are commenting on and providing us guidance on tonight

1:02:04We my firm svn was was chosen to do this work largely to a large extent because of work

1:02:09We're doing in other municipalities in southwestern ontario

1:02:12We're currently engaged with the city of london looking at tall building strategies for downtown london as well as their other

1:02:19mtsa areas

1:02:20Related to their brt

1:02:22As well as with the city of waterloo looking at some of the development

1:02:26Tall building development there along the eye on it within their mtsa areas

1:02:31You know, I say that to give a bit of context, but the important thing to understand here is when we think about this kind of work

1:02:37This kind of policy work

1:02:38There are some similarities amongst the various cities that we we work in in southwestern ontario. There's also a lot of very specific

1:02:46Local character that needs to be brought to the fore in this case

1:02:50The work we're doing work. We're doing in both waterloo in london is very much about

1:02:55Looking at the significant amounts of densities and heights that already exist within their official plans

1:02:59And providing them with guidance on how they can move

1:03:03That kind of development forward and get higher quality and better quality development

1:03:07Here in guelph that's not necessarily the case that we're starting with

1:03:11The existing downtown secondary plan provides a relatively modest amount of density in a relatively constrained

1:03:18number of locations within the downtown

1:03:21To the extent that

1:03:22It's difficult to for the the city to meet its its official plan goals for growth and development of the downtown within the existing framework

1:03:30We need to look at something akin to a rough doubling

1:03:33Of the number of people in jobs per hectare within the downtown core over the course of

1:03:38The time between now and 2051

1:03:40And so that's I think some of the context that we bring to to the work that we've been trying to do here

1:03:46So in terms of that work, um, you know, we tried to inform what we were doing

1:03:52I could say in a very very quick manner to bring this forward

1:03:56What we started with obviously was your existing policy framework, whether it's the downtown secondary secondary plan the directions from opa 80

1:04:04But also undertook an updated land assessment for the downtown where we could clearly

1:04:11Calculate existing people in jobs per hectare

1:04:15As well as overlaying that onto a three-dimensional model of the downtown that allowed us to

1:04:21grow

1:04:22various sites within the downtown

1:04:25Examine the impact of various heights not only on the physical layout and the physical growth and change in the downtown core

1:04:31But also in their ability to get to those those bigger numbers

1:04:36We also undertook a jurisdictional scan looking at municipalities like a kitchen or Cambridge London Hamilton

1:04:42Even as far afield as Ottawa and Kelowna

1:04:45Looking at not just some of the goals that they've looked to incorporate within their their downtown plans and height frameworks

1:04:51But also some of the built form characteristics and the ways they they get a particular character of tall buildings

1:04:57Not just how they get tall buildings

1:04:59Um, we've also undertaken a relatively rapid

1:05:04series of

1:05:06engagements

1:05:07with members of city staff a number of different community

1:05:11stakeholders as well as the

1:05:13Representatives from the local development community and aided by staff

1:05:17Undertaken a couple of different sessions with the public in order to hear the various inputs being provided therein and been able to sort of take

1:05:25All of that different input and balance it out in the approach that we've taken here

1:05:30So what is that approach?

1:05:32So based on

1:05:36The approach that we've taken is from a structural perspective similar to the one that exists within the downtown secondary plan

1:05:42So we've balanced two principles here one tries to locate taller buildings

1:05:47Around the edge of the downtown core

1:05:49limiting the impact on surrounding neighborhoods

1:05:52while also

1:05:54Trying to balance out the the sensitivities of built heritage the built heritage fabric within the

1:06:01The downtown

1:06:02What we've come up with is is essentially an urban amphitheater concept where

1:06:07Higher heights sort of hug the periphery of the downtown

1:06:12those heights, sorry with with lower

1:06:15Lower heights and densities within the core areas sort of centered on macdonald street

1:06:19Similar to what we said previously in terms of maximum heights

1:06:23The the increase in the overall maximum height peak for the downtown is relatively modest

1:06:27We're looking at max buildings of about 20 stories

1:06:31for the downtown

1:06:32However, the in the areas with the amount of area within the downtown that is at those height peaks or is at taller

1:06:39taller building scales whether 1816 stories and 14 stories has increased quite significantly from what was then the

1:06:46downtown secondary plan

1:06:52We've also made a couple of changes to the overall structure

1:06:56The approach to this the the height limits that we're looking at

1:07:00Really look to to to balance out some of the things that we heard

1:07:03So on one hand we heard from the development community that heights within the sort of 20 to 24 story range

1:07:08Represented a kind of market sweet spot for the types of projects that they were looking to market

1:07:13We tended towards the lower end of that because some of the feedback we heard from the general public

1:07:18favored favored

1:07:20Buildings that were tall but not too tall within within that scale the 20 story range still keeps us within a reference

1:07:28Height to the basilica and so we are not we are not providing

1:07:32Heights within this this proposed draft that would dwarf the the basilica

1:07:37And keeping within that as an existing principle

1:07:40We're also shifting one of the existing view corridors

1:07:43So there's an existing view corridor that extends from the basilica out to grand street

1:07:47It's been somewhat impacted over the years in terms of development and the growth of trees

1:07:52So we're proposing to shift that

1:07:55view corridor from

1:07:56ending at grand street down to extending draight down mackton l street, which is the

1:08:01sort of primary postcard view of the of the city of gulf to maintain that imperpatuity

1:08:07And i'll hand it back over to brena

1:08:19Thanks, jonathan

1:08:22I did want to note two things on the map

1:08:25And I can go I don't know if I can go back

1:08:33So I'll go I'll go back to the currently permitted building heights. You will note

1:08:39At the bottom there the special policy area overlay

1:08:43That is an area that we we haven't touched at all. So the existing permissions

1:08:49There are ones we are carrying through at this point in time

1:08:53I was having some email conversations today with the g rca to get an update as to where they are in their in their process

1:09:00My understanding is that the

1:09:03technical engineering work

1:09:05Is to be completed

1:09:07By the end of this year. That's hydraulic and hydrology and i'm not sure the difference but that is what

1:09:13What the terms are and then starting next year

1:09:18We'd be looking at

1:09:20Either in-house or looking at or hiring a consultant to review

1:09:24The updated flood plain mapping as well as doing a look at the existing policy regime

1:09:29That is in the special policy area

1:09:33If if that is going to be changing significantly particularly where the flood plain is then we would you know

1:09:39Do a part two of this of this study to see if heights can be increased in that area because that is a

1:09:45A particular area where we're currently there's yes the fast food restaurants and other areas. So

1:09:51Certainly an area that could

1:09:53benefit from

1:09:55Additional heights and densities as well as some vibrancy

1:10:02Just on the proposed building heights map. We we did note an error in the special policy area

1:10:10currently

1:10:11A site on wellington that you can see in orange here

1:10:15is proposed to be

1:10:17four to ten stories and the

1:10:22Previous map or the current map is is four to twelve. So we meant four to twelve

1:10:27it's just sort of a

1:10:29an error in in

1:10:31Translation to port attempt. So we're not we're not taking away anything at this point in time

1:10:36We're keeping it as as it is in in that area and that

1:10:40That number will be will be changed moving forward

1:10:46Just to go back

1:10:48We we looked at what are the key principles and jonathan touched on these when we're looking at at the downtown

1:10:55To help reach obviously our density targets and as jonathan noted that that is

1:11:00The primary driver to increase the housing supply in the downtown to meet those

1:11:05The target of 200 people in jobs of a hector by 2051

1:11:09So number one some of the some of the key principles we looked at of course

1:11:13Where build where people can live and work close transit?

1:11:18The downtown secondary plan area as the protective major transit station area for gualph

1:11:24The province has been very clear in in other areas as well as gualph that

1:11:30density and growth should occur in and around your your transit station

1:11:36Alongside of that of course

1:11:38And that's we've heard from from the public

1:11:41Is preserving the historical character

1:11:43While allowing for increased flexibility and you may recall from the december

1:11:4810th meeting there was a developer that said, you know heritage is a good thing

1:11:53We've seen many instances in in gualph where

1:11:57They've incorporated the heritage structure and and built upon it

1:12:02So we want to continue that moving forward

1:12:06Protect significant views

1:12:08As jonathan noted we are realigning

1:12:11One of the views from from taking or reallocating it from grange

1:12:15Down to down to macdenl

1:12:18A number of us stood at the top of grain street trying to

1:12:21Avoid traffic because you really can only see the basilica

1:12:26In the winter time in the middle of the road

1:12:29So as as even as a driver, I'd be wary of

1:12:33Stopping there because then you hit the hill

1:12:35Going straight down to so we thought it was it was likely best to preserve

1:12:40That view shed around

1:12:42Macdenl where it currently isn't now and that is jonathan said is the postcard view of

1:12:48We want to concentrate density

1:12:52On particularly on vacant and underutilized sites. So one of the

1:12:59Work through the housing

1:13:01Affordability strategy, of course is to find out where those sites are

1:13:06See what their status is and and focus on on those publicly owned and privately owned vacant and underutilized sites

1:13:15Provide a balance of course between sunlight and shadow

1:13:18We don't want the buildings to be

1:13:21Shadowing our public spaces our sidewalks

1:13:25Particularly, you know city hall for instance and and the rig and it's all it makes for

1:13:33A much better public space

1:13:35When there's not too much of either of those things not too much sunlight and not too much shade

1:13:40So trying to find that balance and then as well

1:13:44Ensuring a gradual transition from

1:13:48The taller to shorter buildings. So it's jonathan said the

1:13:52Amphitheater style

1:13:54On the outside so keeping to where we

1:13:57Currently are looking at

1:14:00Or currently exist at 150 Wellington for instance

1:14:04In and around that area where the topography is a little bit less

1:14:07And still maintaining the Basilica as a strong viewpoint

1:14:12There's a couple other notes in the official plan amendment that I'll briefly go over. We are proposing to change

1:14:19the heights of

1:14:21mid-rise

1:14:23buildings from

1:14:25four to six to four to 11 stories and then in

1:14:29Down currently the high rise building form is anything above six stories and we're proposing

1:14:35To change that from

1:14:3712 stories and above

1:14:40The proposed official plan amendment also recognizes

1:14:47That a community planning permit system is proposed for downtown

1:14:51And will consider the potential for additional heights

1:14:54Beyond the 20 stories that work is currently

1:14:59Underway, we are starting to you saw me last time talk about the community planning permit system for stone road members

1:15:06We're starting in on the work on developing

1:15:09The financial feasibility for the similar work in in the downtown to see what the

1:15:14Tolerance or the threshold is for additional heights to get to more affordable housing units also

1:15:20In the downtown

1:15:22And we propose to bring that work back to you later this year

1:15:26So to date as we stated in December

1:15:29We've held the number of engagements prior to the December date a number of pop-ups for the

1:15:46The at the Guelph farmers market and and worked with the affordable housing strategy and other projects related to housing to bring

1:15:54The downtown heights study to view

1:15:58We held a number of focus group meetings with the

1:16:02The downtown Guelph business association and the Chamber of Commerce

1:16:08At that point in December we had a number of meeting with with the with developer groups

1:16:12Since that time and since the release of the of the draft OPA. We've also had

1:16:18Additional meetings with with a number of developers and developers and more to continue our

1:16:25Consulting team has also been involved with those. We are looking

1:16:29To meet with the planning advisory committee next week and last Thursday

1:16:33We did have a meeting with heritage Guelph and they didn't raise any significant concerns at this point

1:16:39In time

1:16:41So on that on the heritage point we are working as I said very closely with

1:16:47The heritage planning staff team on the development of the heritage conservation district

1:16:51We don't want to run into any issues whether maybe maybe conflict. We want to preserve

1:16:56The historical

1:16:58Character in nature of the downtown at the same time while providing some flexibility

1:17:04For taller buildings where they where they can exist

1:17:07So here we are today

1:17:15Last week we did have a very well attended open house just over in the in the marg McKinnon room

1:17:21There are a number of open house boards that are posted on the have your say

1:17:25Page with more information more pictures

1:17:30Tonight we're bringing forward the draft

1:17:32Amendment for for some feedback from yourselves and for the public

1:17:37We're looking to release the other component of this

1:17:39We're looking to release the other component of this study, which is the draft

1:17:44Built form standards for tall buildings that will cover olive guelph

1:17:49A little bit of a refresh on the urban design guidelines for downtown plus looking at the at the broader picture currently

1:17:56um, the rest of guelph you could say has uh

1:18:00Urban design guidelines for for townhouses and mid-rise buildings, but not for the the higher rise buildings

1:18:06So we'll be looking at developing those standards those were we're looking to release those in early march

1:18:13And it's anticipated as I said earlier that we're looking to bring this amendment back

1:18:18for recommendation

1:18:20in

1:18:21earlier this year

1:18:23Right now the date is anticipated to be april 8th

1:18:29and with that

1:18:31Look forward to receiving your feedback and answering any questions

1:18:38Uh, thank you both for for your presentation walking us through that

1:18:42And uh, as I mentioned earlier, we have a few delegations. So we'll just we'll go to those right away

1:18:47Okay, and then we'll we'll bring it back to us for any of our our feedback

1:18:51and our questions that we have

1:18:54We have uh, it looks like uh one two three four that have signed up here for us

1:18:59Now, please forgive me if i'm not hitting your your your your names correctly

1:19:04Please forgive me in advance, but first up is uh, is christian

1:19:09Slamanitas. I'm gonna. Hope hopefully i'm saying that right

1:19:12Are you here?

1:19:15Christian, I think by video right?

1:19:22Hi, uh christian. It's uh, mayor guthrie. Uh, can you unmute just to give your audio a try for us?

1:19:29For me

1:19:31um

1:19:33It's a little muffled

1:19:34No, you're good. You're totally good

1:19:37Did I say your last name right? Yes, it's uh close. It's simonitas. So very close. That's why I was good to do second time around so

1:19:46Look, I appreciate you being here. We appreciate you being here. Um

1:19:50Just bear with me for one second as I go to the clerks for one moment

1:19:56Uh, and yeah, so for all the delegations, uh today

1:20:00You have up to 10 minutes if you need it, okay

1:20:03If you take the whole 10 minutes, that's totally fine if you want to go a little less that's totally fine

1:20:09But you will hear a chime or a heads up ring at the nine minutes and 30 second mark

1:20:16Which just gives you that 30 second heads up

1:20:19The clerks will turn your microphone off at the 10 minute mark

1:20:22So try not to get there try to get it all done, uh in under the limit, uh that we've provided

1:20:28So christian whenever you're ready your time will start. Okay, so go right ahead

1:20:33Perfect. Thank you very much. So good evening everyone. Uh, my name is christian simonitas

1:20:38I'm a senior planner with up consulting uh here on behalf of our client skyline

1:20:43Who are the owners of the subject lands identified as 26 to 40 cardin street and 27 to 39 macden l street

1:20:50At first, I like to say thank you for providing the opportunity to speak today on this project

1:20:54We certainly appreciate the overall intent of this initiative to increase height and density within the city's downtown

1:21:00However, I will be presenting some of my comments and recommendations for uh the city to consider moving forward. So next slide, please

1:21:12Uh, yeah, so as previously noted the subject lands are noted on the slide in front of you. Uh, they are

1:21:18Right across from city hall and market square

1:21:21There's an existing two-story commercial building on the subject lands with no existing cultural heritage attributes

1:21:27I would also like to note that the lands are subject to an ongoing official plan and zoning bylaw amendment application

1:21:33That was submitted by our firm prior to the uh, this downtown height study that was initiated

1:21:39So following the initiation of the study, uh, our client opted to pause these applications and participate in the study

1:21:45Which is why i'm here today

1:21:47And to provide to provide some additional context, uh, this opa and zba application that's been paused

1:21:54Contemplates a 14 story mixed use development

1:21:57consisting of 120 dwelling units and approximately 600 square meters of commercial space

1:22:03Next slide, please

1:22:06Yeah, so this slide here just provides an aerial image of the subject lands just to provide some additional context again

1:22:11Just right across from city hall and market square at fronts both macdenl and cardin street

1:22:17Next slide

1:22:20So, um as per the current schedule d uh shown on the left hand side the subject property, uh currently permits a maximum building height of six stories

1:22:29As per the proposed draft schedule d, uh, that was released by city staff shown on the right hand side

1:22:35There is no proposed change to the permitted height on the subject lands and it would remain capped at six stories

1:22:41In addition to both the the release of schedule d and the draft official plan by city staff

1:22:47I would also just like to note that um

1:22:50We there were no detailed background study. Um, that was included on the website as well as

1:22:55Rational for the changes in terms of the height that was contemplated through the proposed opa

1:23:00In in reading a draft opa without this information would be similar to reviewing say a development application with no supporting plan studies report a report. So

1:23:11You know respectfully we we would ask that city staff certainly

1:23:15Provide such

1:23:17background detail and and or rationale with respect to the

1:23:20proposed changes not only for the subject lands, but

1:23:23The initiative as a whole. Um, so understanding that these recommended

1:23:27Recommended changes were arrived. Um, are as fundamental to ensure that you know, a transparent and evident evidence based approach

1:23:34Uh to policymaking is conducted. So next slide, please

1:23:39So based on our review of the subject lands and surrounding area as well as the supporting reports and or studies that were submitted as part of that

1:23:45Now paused opa and zedbia application on the lands

1:23:49We are recommending that the proposed designation permit

1:23:52Four to 16 stories on the subject lands as well as the majority of the lands between carden street and cork street

1:23:58The image shown on your screen outlines the proposed change. Uh, and our clients lands are outlined

1:24:03in in red there, um

1:24:06It's the bottom there

1:24:08Next slide, please

1:24:10Now in order to integrate such taller buildings between four to 16 stories while also being sympathetic to the existing character of the downtown

1:24:17There are a number of design elements that can be implemented and are required throughout the approval process such as

1:24:23Including step backs above the podium to maintain the historic street wall

1:24:27The adaptive reuse of heritage buildings and facades to maintain the existing character of the downtown

1:24:32Using building materials that are reflective of and complementary to the existing conditions, which may include the use of brick or stone

1:24:39Uh, and lastly providing for active uses such as commercial or retail uses at the street level to support a lively downtown

1:24:46Next slide, please

1:24:48In order to visualize these design elements, uh, the following image shows a rendering of the proposed 14 story mix use development

1:24:55That was submitted as part of that

1:24:56Uh paused opa zedbia application on the subject lands

1:25:00So as you can see there's a three-story podium with building materials reflective of the surrounding historic facades

1:25:06Maintains that existing street wall while also providing for a tower that is stepped back and achieves additional height and density within the downtown

1:25:14Next slide, please

1:25:17Also, and this was noted by city staff and we certainly could

1:25:20Concur that we understand that the view

1:25:23Corridors from the basilica to the west are very important factor for development in the downtown

1:25:28And this image here truly demonstrates that development along mcdonnell can still protect the primary view and or corridor

1:25:35Will also achieving increased heights beyond what's proposed, you know, six stories and and as you can see we're proposing 14

1:25:42So with the use of step backs away from mcdonnell and other design elements that I previously noted

1:25:47You can see the view of the basilica is completely protected and unobstructed for such by such development

1:25:53Next slide, please

1:25:56So as the downtown study continues, uh, it's essential to consider how other mid-sized communities in the greater golden horseshoe

1:26:03Have approached the subject. So several mid-sized communities such as waterloo, kitchen or london

1:26:08Have conducted height reviews and this was also noted by

1:26:11Staff within the last couple of couple of years

1:26:13Resulting in significant changes to their local planning framework. So as you can see, these are some examples within

1:26:20development within mtsas in waterloo that have provided a balance between heritage conservation

1:26:26Notably the image on your left there

1:26:29Good urban design principles and need for increased height and densities within these mtsas

1:26:34Next slide, please

1:26:36The city of kitchens another example, uh, they recently undertook their growing together opi and zedby initiative, uh, which

1:26:42Considered the appropriate built form for its within its mtsas

1:26:46This initiative introduced a range of new land use designations and zones that have paid paved the way for

1:26:52extensive intensification in the city's most walkable

1:26:55neighborhoods as well as recognizing its downtown and mtsas that are truly the correct location for the majority of growth

1:27:03Next slide, please

1:27:05Again similar example, um, city of kinkston, uh

1:27:10Another example of how increased height and densities can be achieved in similar mid-sized cities

1:27:15Next slide

1:27:17And then another example as well. So st. Catharines is one that I've noted. So next slide

1:27:24Now to conclude my presentation

1:27:26Uh, I believe that this is certainly an excellent opportunity for the city to really capitalize on achieving smart growth within the downtown area

1:27:32Where increased height and or density belongs close to public transit

1:27:37Certainly not all sites can or should accommodate high density buildings due to heritage elements lot size frontage, etc

1:27:43However, as I noted throughout my uh previous slides, they're design elements that can be incorporated and or required throughout the approvals process to achieve such balance

1:27:53Again, we would ask that the city staff or city rather consider increasing the high permission of the subject lands and surrounding areas

1:28:00for the four to 16

1:28:02uh story designation in order to meet the minimum density requirement of 200

1:28:07People and or and jobs per hectare as set out by the province within mtsas

1:28:12As this project continues, we would also ask that the city provide more detailed background information and reporting on how the current draft

1:28:19Schedule D and the opa was was developed to this point and certainly moving forward. So

1:28:25With that, I'd like to conclude my presentation and thank you all again for this opportunity to speak tonight and happy to answer any questions. Thank you

1:28:34Thank you christian for your presentation. Is there any follow-up to this delegation anybody?

1:28:40Okay, I just have one question then

1:28:43christian did you happen to

1:28:46knock on the doors to the

1:28:49owners of the buildings to the right and to the left and to across the street

1:28:53to see if there was any

1:28:56Uh

1:28:57Coalition I guess of all the owners in that area that you've outlined in your map that also wanted the same height

1:29:06Through the marionette, that's great question. So um, no, we have not specifically reached out to those owners within those two blocks

1:29:12between carden and cork, but I will note that based on that

1:29:17Rendering and or image that I provided on one of my previous slides

1:29:20You can see that that outdoor and that view shed along mcdonnell street

1:29:26would certainly be protected with that increased height as shown on the

1:29:31East side where our property is on on mcdonnell

1:29:35It was unobstructed and then if you were to mirror that or reflect that on the other block

1:29:40On the on the west side of mcdonnell, it would

1:29:44Certainly be unobstructed again based on that mirroring if you will of of that rendering

1:29:51Yeah, thank you. I agree with that. Thank you

1:29:53Um, okay, there's no further questions. I appreciate you you answering me on that

1:29:58Have a have a great rest of the day and thank you for your time

1:30:02very much

1:30:05All right next up is uh bruce uh, elselston

1:30:09Is here I think in person. Yeah bruce is coming down

1:30:13Did I say your last name right bruce?

1:30:16okay

1:30:17I'm two for two. We're not making it easy on you. That's okay. What is it? Iselstein?

1:30:22Okay, we'll go with that since it's your name. You know what you're saying. So thank you very much. I apologize for that

1:30:27Uh bruce, you heard me say about the no more than 10 minutes, right?

1:30:31So uh, you're good to go and you can start whenever you're ready

1:30:37So good evening and thank you for allowing me to speak here tonight

1:30:43My name is bruce iselstein and I'm here on behalf of the residents living on edwin street

1:30:51I am not here to speak to the entire plan amendment, but rather

1:30:55To a small neighborhood that will be affected by it

1:30:59But as brenda mckinnon pointed out earlier

1:31:03The fact that a vacant lot sits at the end of our street may indicate

1:31:07The probability that we are affected

1:31:10In perhaps a greater way than some other areas of the plan

1:31:16I grew up in strafford, ontario and attended carleton university in ottawa where I studied economics

1:31:23I'm a single father of two school age children a youth sports coach and a small business owner

1:31:30Throughout my life. I've lived in 16 cities

1:31:34in four countries

1:31:35But for the last 14 years I've lived here in guelph

1:31:40I only mention these things because I believe that I represent not only a proud guelph resident

1:31:46But one who's experienced life in many other cities and still chosen guelph as a place to settle to raise my children

1:31:54and to call home

1:31:56Edwin street sits on the northwestern side of the secondary plan of the proposed

1:32:04plan amendment closest to the corner of london and walwich

1:32:09At the open house for this proposed plan amendment on the 4th of february

1:32:15It was made clear that london and walwich

1:32:18would be problematic for entry and exit from anything being built on that vacant lot

1:32:25And on that I think we can all agree

1:32:30But to go from there to the idea of using edwin street to solve that issue

1:32:36lacks in our opinion any real world logic

1:32:41Let's start with the parking

1:32:43despite on street parking

1:32:45Which edwin street has all spots are generally occupied during the day due to our proximity to downtown

1:32:53and at night due to

1:32:55Many area homes that are without sufficient driveway space or in many cases any driveway at all

1:33:03In addition overflow from the funeral home at the end of our street always spills down edwin street filling any remaining spots

1:33:12daytime

1:33:13evening

1:33:14weekdays and weekends

1:33:17Now on edwin edwin street there are 18 single family homes. We are one block long

1:33:24Three of those homes do not have a driveway

1:33:28Those 15 families with a driveway on 24 cars

1:33:32Leaving nine cars that need to park on the 17 spots available on our street

1:33:39Add to that the four cars belonging to the three families that don't have driveways and you've got 13 cars

1:33:45that need to park in those 17 spots

1:33:50That number represents almost the full number

1:33:54Of street spots available and that's in the summertime

1:33:58when you're not losing spots due to snow

1:34:02if

1:34:04An eight-story building which is what is proposed under the plan amendment was to be erected

1:34:10And we assume that the ground level was for businesses and the upper seven floors contained

1:34:15Let's say four to six residences per floor

1:34:19We can conservatively estimate estimate that approximately 40 vehicles

1:34:24May require thoroughfare for that building at any one time

1:34:28And that is not to mention any deliveries or visitors to those businesses or residents

1:34:34Where will those vehicles park?

1:34:37Let's move on to passage down the street

1:34:41Edwin street is a typical is typical to many of the original downtown streets in that it's quite narrow at the best of times

1:34:49And that's amplified during the winter months as I mentioned mentioned earlier

1:34:54It is a daily occurrence

1:34:57That cars cannot pass during garbage and recycling pickup

1:35:01Both of my children will attest that they relate for school today for exactly that reason

1:35:07Despite

1:35:08on-street parking deliveries and trades people

1:35:12Often need to block the road for extended periods of time because there's simply nowhere else to park

1:35:20We also need to talk about safety

1:35:23Including the 12 school aged children and for grandchildren that regularly receive care from their Edwin street grandparent

1:35:31There are 16 children that either live on or spend a great deal of time on Edwin street

1:35:38And with its close proximity to Woolwich in London Edwin street is a often used bypass to people in curry

1:35:47So that they can get past that London and Woolwich intersection

1:35:51As a 14 year resident of Edwin street, I can tell you firsthand that I've witnessed far too many close calls

1:36:01And tripling the number of cars

1:36:05That use Edwin street is almost guaranteed

1:36:09To end with something that none of us want to see

1:36:13Regardless of where you call home

1:36:17Edwin street also has an enviable history and heritage

1:36:21It is widely seen as a desirable street not only for its character and its

1:36:26location close close proximity to parks in downtown

1:36:31But for its annual street parties

1:36:34It's beautifully printed boulevards and its sense of community

1:36:40Three of our current residents

1:36:42Are currently living in homes that they were raised in

1:36:47And eventually purchased from their parents for exactly that reason

1:36:53We've learned and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

1:36:56That the consultancy studying the proposed changes contains a grand total of zero Guelph residents

1:37:05How could those people possibly be tasked

1:37:09With developing a true understanding of the impact that changed like this would have on the people the real people

1:37:16Who will be affected

1:37:19And that brings me to the concept of real world study

1:37:22At the open house, we also learned

1:37:26That much if not all of the assessment has been performed via satellite imagery

1:37:31How can a planner understand the implications of a potential eight story building based on satellite views without having walked the site or without

1:37:39Speaking to its local business owners and its residents

1:37:43Just this morning I had a conversation over breakfast with my two children

1:37:46About the difference between science and theoretical science

1:37:50The gist of that conversation was that as fascinating as study study done in a lab or on a computer is

1:38:00Whenever possible, we need to get our hands dirty

1:38:03Even if it's inconvenient because there will always be unknowns that we couldn't have foreseen

1:38:09Because they just weren't showing on google

1:38:14An interesting discussion point that I'd be remiss to not mention

1:38:19Is that of driverless or car free community building versus the more traditional vehicle dense cities

1:38:28We cannot claim that parking passage and safety won't be an issue

1:38:34But in the very next breath admit that entry and exit off of Woolwich in london would be problematic

1:38:42Recognizing that the issue would be problematic

1:38:45And thereby commandeering a quiet side street like edwin

1:38:50Negates the ability to then claim that increased traffic won't be a problem

1:38:58So in closing

1:39:00Our hope is that the input we've provided today is able to shed some light on the potential

1:39:08Impact this planning amendment could have on our little piece of golf

1:39:13Planning for densification is not a question

1:39:17But as a city if we move forward

1:39:20With building something in an effort to grow

1:39:24While ignoring the things that made us a desirable city in the first place

1:39:31If we blanket entire areas with a one-size-fits-all solution

1:39:37We risk disrupting the foundations on which we were built

1:39:41And with that I'll finish off great. Thank you, Bruce

1:39:46Thank you, Bruce. Thank you for coming to us and expressing that with your presentation

1:39:51Is there any follow-up for Bruce today from anyone?

1:39:54Good takeaway

1:39:56It is a good takeaway. Thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate your perspective

1:40:01I think I used to be a neighbor over is charles street beside you. Yes. I used to have a place on there

1:40:07Yeah, so I know the area well

1:40:10Okay, thank you. Uh, let's see who's end up next mitch baker from uh, vive uh, developments is here

1:40:20Mitch you're on your way down. So thank you for joining us

1:40:31Welcome and whenever you're ready. Okay. I don't think I messed up your last name

1:40:36Baker no, I got an easier name for you. That's good. All right over to you

1:40:40Through you mr. Mayor. Uh, good afternoon

1:40:43Um, I'm mitch baker. I'm a planner with up consulting

1:40:48On behalf of our client vive developments

1:40:50Uh here here in response to the downtown height study

1:40:54You did just see my my colleague christian online as well. So these slides might look uh somewhat similar

1:41:09So our our client vive developments owns the property located at 36 in to 50 wellington street

1:41:16It's in that eastern portion of the downtown

1:41:20Of the downtown and it was one of the properties that uh that staff has

1:41:25indicated was

1:41:27Designated to have a lower density

1:41:29Uh, this currently contains two fast food restaurants with extensive surface parking

1:41:35Uh, and without any height study or background information being provided to date

1:41:40It's it's been difficult to to rationalize or justify why why some properties have been chosen for an increased height

1:41:47Just for some general site context around here

1:41:51Uh, it's generally lower lower density commercial retail uses often with drive-thrus and

1:41:56And low and parking lots both city owned and privately owned

1:42:01Uh, low rise commercial strip malls, uh, and and there's also the fire station police station the Ontario court of justice building

1:42:08Uh, just to name a few of the uses in this area

1:42:14So our client has has prepared a preliminary development vision just for for this property

1:42:18Right now it stands at 29 story mixed use building with the ground floor commercial

1:42:23Uh, there's a four story podium with with parking and a 10 story mid-rise section to help ease the building's transition to adjacent properties

1:42:31It's also located on a major arterial roadway, uh, which is generally meant to accommodate this additional traffic volume

1:42:38And generally has excess uh servicing capacity as well

1:42:44So this is this is schedule D

1:42:47Which is proposed to be amended as part of the official plan amendment as a result of the of the downtown height study

1:42:55Uh, you'll notice, uh, my client's property highlighted in green

1:42:59There which is currently permitted for four to 12 stories and as corrected by staff

1:43:04It has been reduced to four to 10 stories, but it seems to remain as four to 12 stories

1:43:10um

1:43:11Generally, it does appear like there's significant density

1:43:14And building heights being permitted as shown on the right hand side

1:43:19So I have uh,

1:43:21Overlaid it with a aerial photograph just to better give some site site context to some of these properties that that are being

1:43:28That have increased height permissions. Uh, so those two right in the middle with the red ones

1:43:33That's a city owned parking lot and the Ontario court of justice building

1:43:38Permitted for the greatest density in in the this area of the downtown

1:43:41And then just north of that is the police station and north of that is the

1:43:45Guelph Armory both permitted for four to 16 stories

1:43:49And then as you travel south down windom street, there's there's two blocks of

1:43:53Four to 18 stories. One is a previous development proposal and the other is the is the fire station

1:43:59Uh, then as you travel north northwest on wellington, uh, you'll pass by

1:44:06Several blocks of three to six stories, which is uh, very uncommon for a downtown core and a major transit station area

1:44:14To have have such restrictive

1:44:16Heights as you continue northeast, uh, you'll notice a large block of four to 18 stories

1:44:22And that's another city owned parking lot and a high dense an existing high density

1:44:28Uh development

1:44:32And again without any any background information, it's it's difficult to just justify why some of these properties were chosen to

1:44:39To have an increased density

1:44:41When development to redevelopment is unlikely to be seen on many of these properties

1:44:45And it's a common issue for for a lot of mid-sized cities

1:44:49As you'll you'll see in waterloo. Here's here's multiple 20 plus story buildings

1:44:54Uh, Kitchener who who is consistently

1:44:57Approving 40 to 50 story plus buildings. Uh while while respecting and maintaining that existing built form of the city

1:45:06Kingstand, which is an old has a lot of heritage in that city has seen a lot of new development

1:45:11And st. Catharines is an old city itself, which has has seen a lot of new high-rise development as of late

1:45:19So our recommendations is to is to increase the the density and the height permissions to four to 35 stories

1:45:26This is largely consistent with a lot of the mid-sized cities around

1:45:31Some of some of which I just I just mentioned

1:45:34This is a major transit station area and it will

1:45:38Follow the the provincial direction

1:45:40As mentioned by by staff earlier

1:45:43Generally doubling the density is needed to meet the targets and this this will certainly

1:45:48Help contribute to those housing targets as well

1:45:51Uh, so this area of the downtown is generally low lying and respects a lot of the sight lines that that are

1:45:58Aren't generally a concern in this area of the downtown

1:46:02Uh, it will help facilitate development on properties that are ready to be redeveloped by developers

1:46:09Uh, also located on major arterials

1:46:11Um, such as gordon street and windom street are our major arterials, uh that that head straight to the university of gulf

1:46:18Uh, so this really provides a unique opportunity, uh to to increase density and and provide those that

1:46:26Necessary housing to meet those targets in this area

1:46:30Uh, this would encourage density and walkability throughout the downtown

1:46:33And really help help improve the connectivity of the downtown area that both west and east of the tracks

1:46:41then

1:46:42Lastly is strategically permitting greater height in this area really facilitates a balance between

1:46:48The historic and new and modern developments that that's seen west of the tracks

1:46:54And again, this really provides a unique opportunity to create a vibrant new

1:46:59mixed use walkable

1:47:01downtown area for the city of gulf

1:47:04and its residents

1:47:08Both myself and my client are available for any questions. Thank you

1:47:14Thank you, mitch for your presentation as well for coming down and giving us that

1:47:19Any questions for this delegate at this time? Oh, uh, counselor caller, please

1:47:27Uh, thank you and through your worship to the delegate

1:47:30Um, just wanted to follow up on something you said you said that out there have been no no reports of justification

1:47:37What would you have expected to see as proper justification for the heights that have been presented?

1:47:45through your mr. Mayor um

1:47:48The background study or information would would have been helpful instead of just seeing the the proposed draft amendment

1:47:54Some of the the reasoning and rationale behind why why some properties and blocks were chosen for increased height permissions

1:48:00Just just to provide some additional context would would have been helpful

1:48:04Okay, okay, and under the proposal that you have shown

1:48:07To the four to twenty stories on the sides and the four to what was it 30 35 in the middle

1:48:14um

1:48:15Have you have you

1:48:17Has your team looked at that and seen what the massing would mean for the city because it seems like that would be a big mass of

1:48:25of

1:48:26Of of cement uh looking at it from the river. Is that not right?

1:48:34Through you mr. Mayor, um, it would it would be dependent on on where you would be looking at

1:48:39We have done done some initial massing on our original development proposal

1:48:44However, we haven't done done any massing for the city-wide as I presume that's part of the height study

1:48:50Okay, no, thank you for highlighting that I appreciate it. That's it for me. Thank you worship

1:48:55Thanks counselor. I think our work just has a did you know you're good? Okay, that's it for

1:49:01For you, uh, mitch. Thank you very much for coming and presenting appreciate it

1:49:05And finally we have uh tim smith from the wood development group coming forward

1:49:10Come on down tim

1:49:15They get easier baker to smith. I shouldn't be able to mess those up. So

1:49:19Uh, tim, thank you very much for coming and uh, I'll turn it over to you start whenever you're ready

1:49:25All right. Thank you very much for this opportunity. Mr. Mayor and members of council

1:49:29My name is tim smith. I'm a principal with urban strategies of planning an urban design firm

1:49:35I'm here today as the planning and urban design consultant for wood development group who own

1:49:40Plant what the site we're calling plant number two in the ward community which you see outlined in red on this slide

1:49:47Um, I'm also someone who's assisted the city

1:49:50Over many years with various planning initiatives. In fact, including the secondary plan

1:49:57Ian pannabaker sitting behind me the vice president of development at wood development group and myself

1:50:03Actually led the preparation of the secondary plan beginning about 15 years ago

1:50:08Ultimately approved about a decade ago. It's a plan that has served you well

1:50:13For sure over the last 10 years you've taken great strides and

1:50:16improving and bringing people downtown

1:50:19But we will be the first ones to agree that it's time to update the plan and particularly with respect to heights and density

1:50:25So we very much support this initiative. It's obviously moving very quickly

1:50:29Um, but it's needed. It's needed to unlock

1:50:33Some of these many challenging sites downtown particularly south of the tracks to simply get more residential growth

1:50:39Happening and continue the ongoing revitalization of downtown

1:50:44City staff and the consultant team have done really good work so far in a very short amount of time

1:50:49As you've heard they recognize as the need to unlock some of these more challenging sites to protect the views of the church of our lady

1:50:58To just recognize there are other places for taller buildings up to maybe 20 stories or more

1:51:04That will have a significant impact in terms of bringing population downtown at the same time

1:51:10Protecting that really valued character of both neighborhoods and the core the historic core of downtown

1:51:17Excellent work has been done in the short amount of time

1:51:20One of my key messages I think to you today is really to take more time to get the study right

1:51:25It's on the right track, but my feeling is there's some refinement to do

1:51:29There's more of a rationale as you've heard that needs to be provided for the ultimate recommendations

1:51:35I have a few general comments before speaking specifically about the plant number two site

1:51:40I do feel there needs to be more engagement

1:51:42There's been good engagement with landowners in the community so far

1:51:45But there needs to be more to get the plant the recommendations right

1:51:49To make sure that what's being put forward in terms of future height limits

1:51:53Will have that intended effect of unlocking sites making redevelopment viable

1:51:58I also feel that you need to be bolder

1:52:01We were bold 10 15 years ago taking that historic six-story limit downtown and lifting it up on many sites to 10 12 18 stories

1:52:10You've seen the impact. You've also seen not enough development

1:52:14Particularly south of the tracks this side of the speed river in the word community. Certainly there's been steady and positive change

1:52:22Um, in my opinion, you need to go well above 20 stories on some of those strategic sites where there is that opportunity

1:52:29For the additional density where you will not be blocking views to the church where you will not dwarf the basilica either

1:52:36given the distance from it

1:52:38so

1:52:40The impacts of this additional height will be significant in terms of achieving that density target getting more residential population

1:52:48But at the same time will protect that valued character of downtown

1:52:52We think you should be flexible as well

1:52:55Um, we understand the intention is through future community planning permit bylaw

1:53:00There'll be opportunities for maybe additional height over what's being put in the opa

1:53:04In my opinion that really needs to be acknowledged in the document

1:53:07Otherwise you might run into legal issues at the end of the day

1:53:10If that cpps bylaw is not in conformity with the official plan and quite frankly

1:53:15You just need some flexibility so that future site specific studies

1:53:20Um have the opportunity to look at additional height

1:53:23We also think generally there's been a very prescriptive approach taken with some sites

1:53:28That's appropriate in establishing height limits, but generally a more simplest simple approach to that scheduled de-height plan

1:53:35I think would serve you well and and future landowners

1:53:39Now my views

1:53:41Today are coming from someone who's worked in many mid-sized downtowns across

1:53:45uh, Canada

1:53:47and recognizing more and more are looking at

1:53:51Tall buildings you've seen some examples from southern Ontario. It's true elsewhere. We're not suggesting

1:53:56I'm not suggesting anyway

1:53:57You might go to the extremes that some others are suggesting

1:54:00But you need to be bolder

1:54:03If I can talk a little bit about

1:54:05The plant number two site

1:54:07We've been spending close to three years now working with development group to really

1:54:12Understand the constraints of the site. There are many

1:54:15It's a brownfield site. It has a very significant

1:54:18Historic building that we want to preserve on it. It has major city infrastructure that needs to be realigned

1:54:24It has a rail corridor running right through the middle of it. We'll need to set back from that

1:54:28There are a number of public benefits. We want to bring with development

1:54:32And at the end of the day that's going to require a certain quantity of development

1:54:36To pay for all those benefits and all those uh needed

1:54:40The cleanup the infrastructure, etc

1:54:43When we were given that kind of density it needed to be achieved here to make this project viable

1:54:47Our team then had to look at how can we mass the site?

1:54:51Uh to have an appropriate relationship to the ward community at the same time to create that

1:54:58Bring that density that the site needs and downtown needs

1:55:02We ended up with a concept and i'll just go to the next slide

1:55:07I guess I can't that you see illustrated here and you might some of you might have already heard about this development

1:55:14We took it to the public back in in november if you haven't heard about it

1:55:17We certainly will be sharing more with you in the coming months

1:55:20But our concept plan here you see on the left is for a mix of buildings ranging in height

1:55:25From three and six stories close to the community up to 24 stories at the heart of the community

1:55:31We felt this was the right built form approach

1:55:35To ensure that we had minimal adverse impacts on the neighborhood could bring forward this

1:55:40Many public benefits almost half the site will be in fact be public realm

1:55:44Completely opening up the site to the community with a number of new open spaces

1:55:49So we varied heights to actually achieve that density and have an appropriate

1:55:54To the community you get a sense of that in the rendering on the right here to show how we feel this

1:56:00Concept would fit within the community now. We took this to the community back in november

1:56:05We were very pleasantly surprised there wasn't an outcry over some of the heights we were proposing particularly at 24 stories

1:56:12We had actually a great deal of support for the concept and an eagerness to see it move forward

1:56:18And we hope that will be the case the next step for us to take it is to prepare an urban design master plan

1:56:24Um, and then take that back to the community to make sure we get some of the details of the plan

1:56:30Right before we actually submit an application. We hope later this year

1:56:34Um, we'll take I'm happy to take questions about this

1:56:37but I just really wanted to share the story with you because it does inform

1:56:40our views on the height study as you can imagine we are looking specifically for

1:56:48adjustments potentially to the recommended height limits in schedule d to

1:56:52More closely aligned with the concept as we have it to here

1:56:58You can see in this illustration. We're looking for a more flexibility in the center of the site to go up to 24 stories

1:57:04We're not looking to do more than one 24 story building

1:57:07But so maybe some flexibility about its precise location

1:57:11And then other than that we're really not looking for any changes if anything

1:57:15We're looking to a lower height limit at the very southern edge of the site from 16 stories to 12 stories again for that appropriate transition

1:57:22To the neighborhood no proposed changes north of the tracks

1:57:27In terms of our other, uh, request we would ask that the

1:57:32study team also look at

1:57:35clarifying that in fact lower than the minimum heights being

1:57:39Established here can be would be appropriate for podiums of buildings for the edges of those podiums

1:57:45For example, if we want to put three story townhouses at the edge of a podium that that would not

1:57:51Be an issue in terms of the minimum heights

1:57:55we also

1:57:56Would look for you in this process to actually remove the remaining density limits that apply downtown

1:58:03It's actually only two sites where a minimum a maximum density applies

1:58:08The metalwork site which of course is mostly developed now

1:58:12And our site and frankly this is an outdated tool for controlling density now that you have

1:58:18Built form controls not just height limits, but other built form controls in the secondary plan

1:58:23In your built form standards your guidelines

1:58:25Those are the tools that are most effective in a downtown like yours for controlling density

1:58:32So we would ask that you take this opportunity to remove those limits

1:58:35And allow the heights that are being proposed and maybe the additional heights that we're proposing here to actually be achieved

1:58:42Otherwise they they simply would not

1:58:44So with that i'll wrap up, but thank you for the opportunity. I would say that you know through the engagement we've had

1:58:50I feel the time is right that your community is is now embracing taller buildings

1:58:55And recognizing that the additional housing that will bring the population downtown

1:58:59Will be overwhelm any concerns about impacts from those tall buildings. Thank you

1:59:06Thank you very much tim appreciate it

1:59:09I've got one question from counselor or orc, please

1:59:13Thank you, merga 33 to mr smith just a really candid question

1:59:19Okay, because your your site clearly shows lots of community benefits lots of park space lots of public realm

1:59:26So won't the community sorry won't the community permit plan

1:59:31Allow for additional height given that trade-off

1:59:36So

1:59:37In terms of being site specific

1:59:40Won't the community permit plan address your concern with respect to height because you you're proving that there's already community benefit

1:59:49Through you mr. Mayor

1:59:53Maybe is is my answer to that I think because we we don't know what the cpps bylaw

1:59:59Will permit

2:00:03Cpps bylaw is going to have quite a bit more detail than a typical zoning

2:00:08Uh zoning bylaw will have in it

2:00:10And I'm assuming it will build on the secondary plan

2:00:13But it really does need to align with the secondary plan to my earlier point

2:00:18If in fact the cpps bylaw is going to open up that opportunity for additional height

2:00:23It really should be acknowledged in the secondary plan that that will be appropriate

2:00:28I'm not saying the secondary plan should establish an upper limit for the cpps bylaw

2:00:33But should should have a notwithstanding policy that says

2:00:36Okay, we have these height limits 20 24 stories whatever was ultimately approved by council

2:00:41Um, but then it also opens up that opportunity

2:00:44For on a site by site basis for additional height to be permitted

2:00:48If it's not in there then frankly you may not conform with the official plan

2:00:52Which may create some legal issues for you

2:00:53So we do recognize that opportunity and so if it's addressed in the secondary plan with this with this update that that will be

2:01:01A possibility through the cpps bylaw absolutely that will give us some comfort

2:01:06We'd love to see a bit more certainty now because we are moving fairly quickly forward with with our urban design master plan

2:01:13And hopefully development applications later this year. So I know the timing of the cpps bylaw

2:01:18It's meant to start this spring, but when it finishes is a little unclear at this point

2:01:22So we're taking this opportunity I get to get some certainty for our site

2:01:26Recognizing that there may be that future opportunity, but we'd like to a bit of clarity that there will be that opportunity for increased height

2:01:34Okay, and through you margoth. Just another question if I could

2:01:38you mentioned that um

2:01:40The current downtown height study is very prescriptive but based on different sites

2:01:47So can you help me understand if it was not prescriptive based on individual sites?

2:01:53What would then control some of the massing what would prevent the city from just having these walls of

2:02:00You know all to the maximum height

2:02:03Uh casting shadow on you know downtown streets where there are patios that kind of thing

2:02:07So if it's not a prescriptive, here's where we'd like to see the height

2:02:12And it's a up to whatever anywhere you want to be

2:02:16How does the city control its own?

2:02:19realm and ambiance and um

2:02:23public spaces

2:02:25Through you mr. Mayor again

2:02:27That's that's an excellent question. I'll try to be brief with my response

2:02:31um

2:02:33But I want to be clear that when I when I said I think you should be more

2:02:36Take a more simplistic approach and be more flexible about height limits

2:02:40First of all my area of interest is not only the development site plan number two site

2:02:44But really the south of the tracks because I think we can all agree not enough development has happened there between the river

2:02:51and the tracks

2:02:53Uh a more flexible approach there could work. I'm not saying it's categorical 20 25 story limit everywhere necessarily

2:03:00I'm not close enough to the analysis that this team has done to to say that

2:03:05I think a more simplistic approach could be taken

2:03:08So I'll answer your question in one way to say

2:03:10If you're not flexible

2:03:12Then the property owner who has got a height limit of eight stories next to someone who's got a height limit of 12 stories

2:03:18Will wonder well, what's the difference? So if a rationale can be provided that's very solid

2:03:23um

2:03:24As the recommendations come forward then it might be very

2:03:28Convincing to counsel who ultimately has to approve development applications

2:03:32Why there's that difference?

2:03:33But sometimes it's hard to make that case about why the line is drawn in that particular place

2:03:38So you just have to consider those future

2:03:41Applications and the challenges of making the case on one site versus the other for a certain height

2:03:49My other response to that question is to recognize that there are other controls

2:03:53Besides height to ensure you don't get a wall of buildings

2:03:58The thing about

2:03:59taller buildings and I'm thinking of buildings over 12 15 stories, which you're already there now with 18 story buildings

2:04:06is

2:04:07The height doesn't matter

2:04:09Really as much as the overall mass of that building the size of the floor plate

2:04:14how the

2:04:15taller building transitions down to the sidewalk how that building is experienced at the lower levels

2:04:23As you're walking along the street. That's that's really the most critical thing

2:04:28And you have controls over that through the secondary plan with

2:04:32With maximum floor plate sizes with requirements for step backs at certain heights

2:04:37You also have quite a detailed design guideline packages like built for manual built form standards

2:04:44That also help to ensure

2:04:46That every tower is sculpted

2:04:48So i'm not going to comment and say that you should permit 20 25 story buildings everywhere

2:04:53I'm not i'm not really saying that when I say more flexible approach

2:04:56It's i'm throwing it kind of back to the study team to say here think about a little bit more flexibility

2:05:01So your point is well taken that you you don't want to just have 20 story buildings everywhere

2:05:06But I would assure you I think through policies through guidelines

2:05:10Whatever the height limits are

2:05:13Site by site you'll have a chance to get it right and avoid a wall impact for sure

2:05:18Not every site is going to work for a tall building to even begin with

2:05:21Because of the size of them and and because parking won't work with them

2:05:25There's a whole bunch of considerations

2:05:27In determining whether a site will even work for a tall building a long-winded answer. So thank you for listening. It's appreciated. Thank you

2:05:35Councillor Allt

2:05:38America three through you to mr. Smith mr. Smith. Thank you very much for your presentation. It was

2:05:44Easily understandable

2:05:46My question is a little simpler than councillor works. It relates to

2:05:50Elizabeth street and I believe if I recollect the

2:05:54suggestion that you have proposed in your

2:05:57presentation was a

2:05:59Maximum of either four or six stories. I was wondering what the rationale for that would be is it streetscape?

2:06:06You'd mention wall of buildings. Is it about traffic?

2:06:10What are the reasons that you would believe that a smaller building on elizabeth street is a better fit?

2:06:19Through you mr. Mayor if i'm understanding the question correctly

2:06:22I think you're you're maybe referring to what we consider to be an acceptable height

2:06:26At the north end of of the plant number two site correct

2:06:30Correct. Yes. Well as I as I was saying earlier

2:06:33I do believe that you know any development of the wood site has to kind of respect that low scale fabric of of the ward

2:06:41And that would include elizabeth street elizabeth street is a different road. It's a busy road

2:06:47It has some opportunity for for a mix of uses not just residential

2:06:51so

2:06:52Would six stories be appropriate?

2:06:55Maybe but frankly our site we don't feel it's it's it's necessary and

2:07:01Really would work within the kind of overall vision we have for the site that just maintaining that kind of four-story

2:07:09Edge is consistent with what is there and and will make for a building that is economically viable as soon as you go from

2:07:17A three four-story building up to a six

2:07:19You're already getting into challenges around parking and things like that. So it's more from a practical

2:07:25perspective that we're kind of

2:07:28Keeping things at a at a low height along elizabeth street. It's not to say you wouldn't object to a

2:07:34You know an increased height limit there. I'm not sure we would take advantage of it

2:07:38We only have a really small piece of developable land on elizabeth street

2:07:43Is that does that answer your question?

2:07:45Absolutely. Thank you. I'll probably take it up to staff later on. Thank you again. Appreciate the presentation

2:07:50you're welcome

2:07:54that um

2:07:56That seems it. I think uh, you we've given a good presentation for us. Thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you for the time

2:08:04All right, everybody. So that's the end of those that have signed up. There is a moment here

2:08:08We're going to have a phone number come up on the screen

2:08:12Um for those that might want to call in if they want to give feedback

2:08:15Uh including the room for just a second. I'll give out the phone number 519837

2:08:215603 we're going to take about a three to four minute kind of four four minute five minute break tops

2:08:28Um to see if anyone else wishes wishes to do that

2:08:31Uh, was there someone in the room that also wanted to speak to this issue?

2:08:36Not at this time. Okay. Thank you. So we'll just wait to see if someone wants to call in then. Okay. Thank you

2:12:15Uh, this is just the 32nd uh heads up

2:12:19That we're going to call the meeting back to order

2:12:46Okay. Thank you. I believe we have two people that have called in and so we have first up

2:12:53is uh arena bliss and then second will be susan watson

2:12:58And for those joining us, uh, if you haven't heard before

2:13:02You have no more than 10 minutes

2:13:04You'll hear a chime at nine minutes and 30 seconds or I can give you a little bit of a heads up

2:13:10um

2:13:11And the microphone will be muted at the 10 minute mark if you get to that point if you need to

2:13:16Uh, so please try your best not to do that. I'll turn it over to arena. You can you hear me? Okay

2:13:27Good evening. Thank you. Are you able to hear me? Okay

2:13:31Uh, yes your internet might not be the best but we can hear you. We'll give it a

2:13:38Give it a go if there's a problem. I'll jump in and stop the time. Okay

2:13:44So the connection is not robust enough. It may not be a good opportunity to speak then because unfortunately I'm on a

2:13:52tablet device

2:13:55Actually, you're coming through very well now. We can all hear you you can keep going if there's a problem

2:13:59I'll interrupt if you don't hear from me interrupting it means you're coming through just fine

2:14:04Well, thank you. Good evening mayor city council clerk project managers and other guests. My name is arena

2:14:11And for transparency, I'll share that I'm newer to well and part of my background is the master's degree in engineering

2:14:17And I work for a time as an environmental and consulting engineer

2:14:21I'm joining the public meeting today to express probably what are

2:14:26Different concerns than what has been talked about so far, but

2:14:30Essentially concerns with proposed increased building heights and developments in well

2:14:35So serious concerns with proposed taller buildings include that taller buildings are not aligned with climate change adaptation and mitigation strategies

2:14:45and ecological and societal climate resilience

2:14:49Insight from numerous experts and studies largely advocate for a maximum for the fixed story development

2:14:55Many experts reflect that low rise living closer to nature

2:14:59facilitates a stronger community oriented way of life and ken yang a leading figure on sustainable

2:15:06Development states that at the outset we should be clear that tall buildings are not an ecological building type

2:15:12In fact, it's one of the most unecological of all building types

2:15:16taller buildings requires excessive materials and sophisticated structural systems to withstand greater wind forces

2:15:23Also demand greater energy to construct hence the higher embodied energy

2:15:28as well as

2:15:30significant energy demands to operate maintain transport heat especially cool

2:15:38There are many environmental and ecological concerns at what is passed of this 11th hour of climate change

2:15:47Including negative watershed impacts water insecurity and supply issues

2:15:53And i'm not sure that there has been a comprehensive watershed study and alliance for example with indigenous knowledge keepers and elders who

2:16:01Know this watershed ecosystem

2:16:04There's also concerns around high energy use and carbon emissions and footprints

2:16:09We know now that the latest review is that we are at the 1.5 degree south piaz global warming

2:16:17Point and that tall buildings by their very nature carry a huge carbon footprint

2:16:22embodied energy and ongoing greater energy consumption and emissions

2:16:27generated than smaller buildings

2:16:30We also have fire concerns and increased fire safety risks with taller buildings

2:16:35An urban heat island effect with heat concentrations created by tall buildings

2:16:41increasing temperatures and impacting

2:16:44the quality of life

2:16:46In thermal discomfort both indoor and outdoor spaces

2:16:50We see increased risk of communicable diseases and viruses through warmer fluid air and lack of natural

2:16:58Ventilation that can increase people's risk of infectious diseases and transmission

2:17:03We see weather events or power outages can lead residents without power water versus spades periods creating great instability and suffering

2:17:13And of course wind challenges with taller buildings causing windy conditions and discovered to the death strand

2:17:19cyclists and local communities

2:17:22As well there are other air quality challenges

2:17:25challenges with light and obstruction of views

2:17:29And a significant challenge as well in this lower rise bird friendly

2:17:35Well environment is taller denser buildings are known to cause significant bird collisions and deaths

2:17:43We know there are increased flooding and flood risks with impervious ground parking and roof services of building developments

2:17:50Can significantly worsen flooding local flood risk runoff and contamination issues

2:17:57And we see other concerns with tall buildings including weight management concerns vertical transportation challenges

2:18:04parking concerns with increased congestion

2:18:07reduced air quality and ongoing repair and maintenance challenges

2:18:12As well there are family and community social and health concerns with taller buildings greater than four to six

2:18:21tall buildings often foster vertical gated community

2:18:26reinforcing separation social and economic segregation

2:18:31And limit social interaction and sense of community compared to lower rise settings

2:18:37Many studies have shown that residents of taller buildings experience emotional stress and other negative

2:18:45psychological conditions including isolation

2:18:48loneliness and depression

2:18:51And even if buildings offer daycare centers and playgrounds children often lack spontaneous play and exploration

2:18:58and overall there are

2:19:00serious concerns with the mandate for growth and urbanization

2:19:05When we look at human urbanism and growth we see that it's contributing to ongoing ecological destruction

2:19:13And and some collapse and a real potential to compromise the vitality of human life on earth

2:19:20As just one reflection if the rest of the world were to consume the energy water and materials that north americans use

2:19:28It's estimated that we would need five

2:19:31So I feel we have a lot of work to do to simplify to lessen our material water and energy usage

2:19:39and actually work to

2:19:42implement low or no growth initiatives to restore biodiversity

2:19:47and ensure

2:19:48affordable and climate resilience housing for all and work to build true climate resilience

2:19:56My proposed recommendations are to reject and to increase downtown building heights and instead

2:20:05maintain the six story building heights

2:20:07Also work to maintain the definition of mid-rise building forms to be the building between four and six stories

2:20:14This was originally defined not increasing the definition to create your height as this is more aligned with global understanding as well

2:20:23Ultimately, I am

2:20:26suggesting

2:20:27a recommendation to reject the proposal for the development of taller buildings

2:20:32Asking this era of climate change and extreme weather events and construction taller buildings

2:20:38unsustainable

2:20:39Ecologically and socially damaging and increasingly at risk of being unlivable

2:20:45The recommendation instead is to prioritize and actively work on climate change mitigation and adaptation

2:20:52strategies to effectively reduce and respond to the effects of climate change

2:20:59As mentioned recent news indicates that we are already at or both the 1.5 degrees

2:21:04Celsius change and global warming and scientists have said that increasing

2:21:09Um at this level and beyond will bring extreme heat drought floods and fires which we already are seeing of course

2:21:18Making it increasingly hard for humans and ecosystems to adapt and survive

2:21:24Growth targets increase density development and taller building heights are not aligned with climate change adaptation

2:21:33mitigation and resilience

2:21:35locally and globally

2:21:37The recommendation is to prioritize and implement low or no growth and deep growth measures

2:21:44to

2:21:46vitally restore balance and well-being instead of

2:21:51prioritizing profit and development as usual

2:21:56and lastly

2:21:57The recommendation is to work to decolonize and implement or integrate indigenous government models

2:22:04in policies planning engineering systems

2:22:09councils and in practice and to

2:22:13More strongly implement indigenous lands or allied

2:22:18Concentration and restoration that naturally focus on holistic well-being the priority

2:22:26In the spirit of true reconciliation

2:22:28I would like to see this community also seek indigenous consultation and consent for development plans and resource use

2:22:36I feel this is more in keeping with honoring treaty agreements that were meant to be sharing and reciprocal agreement

2:22:44And lastly in decolonizing work

2:22:47I feel it's important to begin to question and see how urbanism

2:22:51is another expression of colonialism and practical decolonization

2:22:56In cities will require the active pursuit of de-urbanization and the regeneration of healthy

2:23:03bio diverse natural spaces

2:23:06And rule as well as indigenous well-being

2:23:09It's also important. I feel to notice how we as Canadian community may still largely speak to ignore

2:23:16Or sometimes decolonial narratives that oppose or are not aligned with modern western civilization

2:23:23and intentions for ongoing growth and development

2:23:28Thank you for this opportunity to speak and to share this feedback and encouragement

2:23:33To prioritize building climate resilience and balance. Thank you

2:23:42Thank you so much for calling in you right under the wire there of the 10 minute time frame

2:23:48So we appreciate that. Let me ask if there's any follow-up questions

2:23:53There is not thank you very much Irene have a good rest of the day

2:23:57Thank you

2:23:59And next up is uh, Susan Watson and then after that we did have one more. Uh, wilford uh, ferwarda is could it be uh

2:24:06Speaking after Susan Susan. Uh, can you just check your microphone for us?

2:24:14Yep, you're coming through great. Thank you for joining us. I'll turn it over to you

2:24:20May I go through your members of council? I guess my

2:24:24overwhelming feeling at looking at the maps for

2:24:29The new building proposed building heights was really one of

2:24:33dismay

2:24:35I was involved in the downtown

2:24:38secondary plan

2:24:40planning process

2:24:41leading up to an award-winning plan in 2012

2:24:46And a number of you who are around the council or shoe are online were also on council at that time involved in the process

2:24:55Part of the reason that that plan won awards because was because it directed

2:25:00um

2:25:02high density tall buildings

2:25:05around the perimeter of the historic core to the geographically

2:25:11lowest area so a key intent

2:25:14Was to preserve the historic character of the core and you just have to look to european cities who have done that

2:25:21they have

2:25:24High-rise buildings that they preserve

2:25:27their historic areas intact

2:25:30another part of that award-winning plan was

2:25:34The radical concept that if you're adding in people

2:25:38Then you need to add in parkland. We don't build subdivisions without parks

2:25:43And so because of all the population that was going to be added into the downtown there was a visionary

2:25:49part of the plan which was taking the plaza at the corner of gordon and wellington and actually

2:25:57um unpaving

2:25:59A parking lot and creating pair as some paradise there along the river side

2:26:04So many of the buildings uh that were envisioned for the downtown secondary plan have in fact been built

2:26:11But that park is nowhere in sight

2:26:14um

2:26:15It's way overdue in terms of the timelines in terms of been put in place been being put in place

2:26:21so in terms of looking at adding in um

2:26:25All this new population and new heights when we don't even have the parkland that we were promised as part of the old plan

2:26:31just really raises red flags for me

2:26:34and I would also point out from

2:26:37housing perspective

2:26:38We added uh all kinds of housing into the downtown

2:26:42But we didn't add any affordable housing basically I think to the letter all of those buildings are luxury condominiums

2:26:51And going forward we're just on the parkland

2:26:55file we are staring down

2:26:57a critical shortage of parkland

2:27:01citywide to

2:27:022021

2:27:04The other key question is uh for all of this added population is where the water

2:27:10going to come from

2:27:11Um, I think the previous delegate really set out for you how we're in a situation of overshoot on a planetary level

2:27:19But we're also heading for a situation of overshoot

2:27:22in relation to our water to

2:27:242021

2:27:26And I'm not the main person telling you that the former ceo scott stewart

2:27:31When you change the zoning for the innovation district to housing

2:27:36reminded you that the city barely squeaked in

2:27:40population for the water supply master plans

2:27:422021 and by changing that zoning you were actually over zoning

2:27:48For our our water supply

2:27:51So it seems to me that ever any building that comes forward always has floors added to it always has units added to it

2:27:59um, and so my big question that I think

2:28:02We need to answer as the community before we do any more of this kind of planning is what is the cumulative

2:28:08impact of all of this added population

2:28:12Relative to our actual water supply. I mean if we're if we're wanting to spend a multi billion dollars

2:28:18On a pipe to make theory then let's be upfront about making that decision

2:28:24Let's not just do a what at the last time g folks. We don't have enough water for our population

2:28:31My question about the

2:28:33Flexibility concept with this plan. I'll admit I haven't been able to dig into it in detail

2:28:37But who does who does that serve again? It just feels like rolling out the mat

2:28:43for developers that we've

2:28:46Got rid of heritage constraints environmental constraints. We're subsidizing DCs now. We're going to provide flexibility

2:28:55I was interested, you know to hear

2:28:58counselor reports question about what prevents

2:29:02Overmassing

2:29:04A question I would have too is like once we make those official

2:29:09Official plan changes in terms of zoning. I don't understand this community permit plan concept

2:29:15I mean have we really created as a bright zoning

2:29:19For the developers like anyone who owns that property. Are they going to expect?

2:29:24To develop to that height whether or not someone else is gone first

2:29:28And are we going to find ourselves in a situation of vertical sprawl?

2:29:34I also want to point out that due to um

2:29:37recent provincial

2:29:39legislation and this came out with the skyline building opposite city hall

2:29:43Is that buildings in proximity to?

2:29:46um

2:29:47To transit hubs are no longer required to have parking spaces

2:29:52so

2:29:53I'm going to guess at almost all of the

2:29:56increased height buildings

2:29:58In the downtown are not going to require

2:30:01any parking to be built

2:30:03And besides creating all kinds of gridlock and parking issues in the downtown

2:30:09I want people to think very carefully about the financial implications

2:30:14So if a given developer is able to save

2:30:17$70,000

2:30:20per unit on not having to build a parking space because that's that's what the cost in the downtown

2:30:27Then that will drop the price point of that condo rental or sale

2:30:33by 20 below

2:30:36Average market rental rates

2:30:38And so what happens when that magic number is

2:30:42reached?

2:30:42Well, if a if a building is built or rented 20 below market rate

2:30:47Then the development charges can be waived and because there is no development charge

2:30:54Tooth Fairy

2:30:55If it's not being paid by developers or by the purchaser

2:30:59Then it's going to be paid by Guelph citizens

2:31:02So if we have a scenario where

2:31:05Because all the buildings in the downtown are going to be exempted from creating parking

2:31:10Therefore they can drop their prices and therefore the dc tab is going to land on on citizens

2:31:17So I would want

2:31:19The city to be crystal clear on what the cost of all of this development is going to be if the tab is going to be 100%

2:31:27paid by citizens

2:31:30I would say that

2:31:32I'm in agreement with some of the

2:31:34um developer delegates that I heard speak before I think there really does need to be

2:31:41Uh more planning around this project

2:31:44um, there needs to be

2:31:47You know, I I think like developers I would like to understand the reasoning and the rationale

2:31:52Behind decisions have been that have been made and I think what we really probably need

2:31:57If we really want to update our downtown secondary plan that we need a full sim

2:32:02update process with proper engagement

2:32:05um, it is really raising red flags for me that

2:32:10Uh, almost all the delegates

2:32:12With the exception of myself and the previous one were from the development industry and you had one piece of correspondence from

2:32:20citizens

2:32:21I reached out to julia at 10c. They were in front of you

2:32:26Around the skyline building. They didn't even know this meeting

2:32:29Was going on. There's no business owners represented who have restaurants with patios

2:32:35No one from the ward

2:32:37They were very engaged around the fusion building. They care about their community

2:32:42There was certainly outcry around the skyline building near the armory. It's not that people

2:32:48um

2:32:49Don't care about these issues. They absolutely do but something has happened

2:32:54Where nobody in the community seems to know

2:32:58And I know that uh developers have

2:33:01That but they're able to to pay um full time to monitor monitor these situations

2:33:07But it's it's the job that the city to proactively reach out to citizens to make sure that they know these things

2:33:14Are going on. I have a mental picture of the

2:33:18downtown secondary plan process that led up to the

2:33:212012 plan and there were groups of people gathered around

2:33:253d

2:33:26models

2:33:27I think it was in like the newly built city hall at that time. So there was

2:33:32Incredibly robust engagement with the community and I think that needs to happen

2:33:38That needs to happen before this plan is updated

2:33:42Um, I would also ask that there be clarity

2:33:46When we're talking communication

2:33:48Community engagement that needs to be to parse out

2:33:52Are we talking citizen engagement and people who have no 30 secondary interest?

2:33:58Are we talking um about developers and their paid staff and we need to have

2:34:04You know, we we now have a lobbying registry because we wanted more transparency

2:34:09We need transparency around engagement to see who is engaging and putting forward ideas

2:34:16With a pecuniary interest because it's all lumped into one thing and say this is what the quote

2:34:24Thank you Susan that that is your 10 minute time limit. So

2:34:27You're you're you're done there, but let me just see if there's a follow-up question to you

2:34:31Is there any follow-up question for my colleagues?

2:34:35There is not so thank you very much for calling in

2:34:41Um, and so our third person is uh, not with us anymore. So that was it for our our call ins

2:34:48There. Um, thank you very much for everyone that that has provided feedback to this this moment

2:34:55um

2:34:56So it uh, it is back to us

2:34:59council

2:35:00to give our own feedback

2:35:02to

2:35:04staff and our consultant group to take away

2:35:07and

2:35:09I know that

2:35:10counselor chu and richardson agreed to move in second the receipt of of this. So it's officially on the floor

2:35:18Does anyone want to um, and I would just say maybe maybe just wrap up

2:35:23Your questions and comments like at the same time if you want to do it

2:35:26So we don't have to circle around a couple times. So I'll go Gibson then an alt

2:35:32I thank you through mr. Mayor. Thanks for the presentation from

2:35:36staff and I also want to appreciate the comments from

2:35:39The delegates this evening. Uh, I was thinking the same thing a lot of the comments

2:35:44Uh, I was thinking the same thing during the presentation. So background rationale

2:35:48Uh, you know, it's hard to see the fountain street

2:35:51Um parking lot being posed for up to 20 stories and then down the hill only four to six and without uh justification

2:35:59It's a struggle um for me to to support a document without understanding. Uh, what went into those decisions decisions

2:36:07so

2:36:08Those are my comments. I think everyone kind of captured

2:36:11My my interest in the file with their questions and in comments as well. But again, um, not attributing any

2:36:18Any anything to staff? I'm sure the decisions are are justified in terms of

2:36:24To this point

2:36:25But we do need to have that background study and all the all the legitimate

2:36:30Understanding why those decisions were made and what they look like and then

2:36:33Moving forward. This is just a receipt document. We're moving forward when we come to a final decision document

2:36:40What are council's inputs? I want to make sure that um, if we have a structured

2:36:45decision making a meeting coming up

2:36:48How do staff want to receive inputs from us? Um

2:36:52In advance or or or like thanks very much

2:36:56Okay, thank you, uh, and then I'm just going to yell out what I have here

2:37:01All to then katin and then goller and then a work

2:37:06Thank you very much, ma'am. Guthrie

2:37:08Through you two staff just some comments

2:37:12Um, I do want to thank the delegates in particular. I would like to thank

2:37:17Mr. Smith, but especially mr. Isolapstein as well

2:37:20primarily because he raises a question about a particular piece of property at the corner of

2:37:27London and Woolwich that is bounded by edwin. Um, I think he's raised some fairly important points about

2:37:34Intensification in that area

2:37:37But these points go further and I would ask staff to please consider that the london pays the corridor

2:37:44In my opinion and it's only my opinion, but I think it's the opinion of many residents is problematic

2:37:49There has been an increase in density on the west side and some on the east side

2:37:54But it's been relatively untouched and on the west side. There are certainly challenges

2:37:59For parceling that potentially exists and I I note the comments of mr.

2:38:04Isolstein who said that parking and traffic is a challenge on many of those side streets

2:38:10I'll also talk to staff later on about the comment that

2:38:16Intensification was strategically located. I need to understand precisely what that means because I

2:38:23I take heart in what mr. Smith said when he talked about elizabeth street

2:38:28Concerns about streetscape and traffic and a wall of buildings is something that I think equally applies to the corridor that I'm talking about

2:38:36And that I would hope that staff would reconsider from london to paisley that

2:38:41A challenge will be a wall of buildings and I would draw attention to the the traffic issue at the corner of london from personal experience

2:38:49I can say that because traffic is a challenge. I actually was hit by a car there just last year. Fortunately, it wasn't a problem

2:38:57I did yell at the driver a bit and he apologized

2:39:00But we have traffic issues there that need to be addressed

2:39:03The point about water I think needs to be noted as well. Those are my comments americot three. Thank you very much

2:39:09Okay, thank you. Uh, kateen dengauer

2:39:13I'm here to staff. I just have a couple of questions

2:39:16um

2:39:17Based on the ontario of building code right now

2:39:21How many floors does a building have to have before an elevator is mandatory?

2:39:33through counsor

2:39:34To the mayor to counsor kateen. I'd have to check. I don't know if it's

2:39:38Four or six, but I will get back to you and send you the answer

2:39:41Great. Thank you. Um

2:39:44follow up, uh

2:39:46There's a 15 percent, um mandatory

2:39:50unobstructed

2:39:51unit

2:39:52kind of

2:39:54I don't know what would you call that mandate on buildings for multi

2:39:58um unit buildings. Is that

2:40:01For all multi unit buildings or is that for multi unit buildings of a certain size of a certain floor?

2:40:16Sorry, um to the counsor through the mayor if you could clarify what you mean by unobstructed

2:40:21So basically like accessible units where they don't necessarily have to have all the things

2:40:25But they have to have a certain width in between the kitchens and other rooms and stuff like that

2:40:29They call them accessible, but they don't necessarily have to have all of the barrier free components

2:40:37so

2:40:38Through the mayor to the counsor. So when a building permit comes in for a high rise running building that does require barrier free access

2:40:44We would look at that and there's individual room sizes as well based on barrier free access for those units. So

2:40:49We don't typically look at that till the building permit comes in

2:40:52Um, so i'm not sure if that answers your question or if you want more detail

2:40:56I think I think I worded it improperly. I'm gonna try again. Um

2:41:01So I know that there's a 15 percent

2:41:03mandatory for multi uh unit buildings

2:41:07Is there a limitation on that or is it any multi unit building that's new?

2:41:11Like is it only for multi unit buildings over four floors or

2:41:16That have like 20 odd units or is it just any building that's multi unit has to have 15 percent that qualify?

2:41:25Uh through the mayor to the counsor

2:41:27I will include that on my elevator response and I can send it to all councillors because I do not know off the top

2:41:33Sorry, that's okay. Um and through the mayor

2:41:37another question do we have an idea of?

2:41:41What space would be required to house?

2:41:44the equivalent of one of these areas that has the up to 20 stories

2:41:50If we were to do them in a flat space because I heard a lot from the delegates on the environmental impact of high rises

2:41:57and I'm familiar with the

2:42:00environmental impact of sprawl

2:42:02and how that affects

2:42:04our water

2:42:05And our drainage and so I was just wondering if we had like a comparison

2:42:09of height versus sprawl

2:42:12and the environmental impacts on those

2:42:24through the mayor

2:42:26This is really rough, but I would say a 20 story building on on average would represent a

2:42:33Sort of a transition in terms of the number of units to single family houses on a 3000 square foot lots

2:42:38Something in the area of 14 to 15 acres

2:42:42Okay, great. Thank you. Um, so I just have my comments left

2:42:47I think that you did a really good job with a hard situation. I think that

2:42:52that we do need to have height we

2:42:56Only have so much gulf we can't really expand out anymore

2:43:00So up is kind of the way that we have to go if we're going to be meeting a lot of these provincial mandates

2:43:06and

2:43:07um

2:43:08Because there are no building codes that kind of enforce accessibility for things lower

2:43:15than the three to four

2:43:17three to four floor area

2:43:18I think that this is actually going to increase the availability of

2:43:23apartments for

2:43:24A demographic that really is underserved in terms of housing

2:43:28so, um

2:43:30I'm sure that you're going to take a lot of the feedback in that folks have given

2:43:34I just wanted to say that I appreciate the

2:43:38That this was a hard task and I think you did a good job. Thanks

2:43:42Thank you counselor

2:43:45And uh, go other than our work

2:43:47Thank you through your worship to staff

2:43:51I uh, I just wanted to echo uh counselor Gibson's request if we could have some of the background information

2:43:57Someone that said uh the rationale that went into the heights that were presented, you know, whether there were studies

2:44:04um, and and I I'm wondering if along with that would it be possible for us to see some

2:44:12The signs of what it would look like, you know built out to the stories

2:44:17So that you know, if I'm coming into the downtown I would have an idea of what it would look like to have

2:44:23some

2:44:2420 22 story buildings so that we can have an idea of what that actually

2:44:29Looks like built out. I know having done with uh, whether with the charrettes

2:44:35There was a mock-up

2:44:37On the ground

2:44:38That you could see sort of the heights and I wonder if that could be presented as part of the information

2:44:43So that we can actually imagine or picture what that might look like

2:44:48And then as a as a comment I

2:44:52I really appreciated that

2:44:54The delegate that spoke by phone

2:44:56raising the the environmental concerns about the

2:45:00The build structure but as as counselor kate and just mentioned

2:45:04There's also the offset of if we're not going to house folks in uh in in buildings

2:45:10We are building sprawl

2:45:12So I think that is a consideration that that I'm going to take back with me to to consider

2:45:17But I did want to ask our staff

2:45:20On those on these lines if we are increasing the density of downtown

2:45:24Does that mean that we're increasing the overall population of wealth or is it a first come first serve?

2:45:30We build more density in downtown and then we are building less somewhere else. Could you could you help me understand that?

2:45:42through the counselor

2:45:43through the mayor, sorry

2:45:46The we're we're not actually looking at increasing the density

2:45:50of

2:45:51OPA 80 set out 200 people jobs per hectare

2:45:56the master plan work

2:45:58That is being undertaken in the downtown plus the overall water and wastewater master plan look to that number

2:46:05What we're looking to provide is some flexibility in where

2:46:10That height can be contained

2:46:13and that and that

2:46:15Accompanying density

2:46:17So we are doing a modeling exercise with our consulting team

2:46:24to look at

2:46:25those those densities based on the heights we are proposing and

2:46:30We'll take back the comments

2:46:33From yourselves and and from the public to see if there's locations where

2:46:38It may not be an appropriate fit

2:46:41Okay, okay, I really appreciate that so just to be clear

2:46:45Even though we had previously approved lower heights by increasing the height

2:46:49We're not increasing the population for the city or the density for the downtown

2:46:53We're just shifting where the heights are going to be. That's correct. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you worship

2:47:00Great. Thank you counselor caller or work than downer

2:47:03Thank you. My god three my colleagues have asked a couple of my questions

2:47:07um

2:47:09Through you merga three to staff. I'm just wondering if we've done a financial

2:47:14analysis of

2:47:16All these buildings being subject to community benefit charges and how that returns to the city and

2:47:23I would like you to confirm that all of those taller buildings would be subject to the minimum 5 of affordable housing

2:47:30Because they will be closed to a major transit station

2:47:32So have we done that analysis of the potential outcome in terms of the number of affordable housing units?

2:47:38I know it depends on who bills what where

2:47:41Um and the potential on the community benefit charge

2:47:48That work is being considered through the community planning permit system work and bylaw

2:47:54Under a community planning permit system

2:47:57Community benefits charges are captured through what we're calling in the stone road area is a a complete community charge or a

2:48:05Something similar to that

2:48:07The five percent that councillor work

2:48:11spoke to

2:48:13It's really a number that comes out of some inclusionary zoning studies. We're not proposing

2:48:18inclusionary zoning in in the downtown at this point in time

2:48:23But looking to do something similar through the cpp work

2:48:27Uh, so i'm on the fine on the financial side. Um, that's the type of work that we are working with dillon on

2:48:35Once we get to the the downtown feasibility thresholds

2:48:39of what that number is um when

2:48:42Sorry to be making this a little bit longer

2:48:45A cpp bylaw is specific

2:48:50To height and density so the the number of affordable housing units you can get in a development has to be related to

2:48:57How much extra height or density?

2:49:00the bylaw

2:49:01permits

2:49:03So what that cost is

2:49:05Is we we need to do

2:49:07A little bit more performer work. We started in on the performer work for a down for stone road in envera

2:49:13That it's coming to a conclusion and we'll do that

2:49:16The same for the downtown work to know what that percentage number is for a developer to understand

2:49:23Okay, so through america 3 just a comment. I thought that the province had reduced that percentage of affordable housing for inclusionary zoning

2:49:30near a major transit station from 10 to 5

2:49:34and

2:49:35So we don't currently have

2:49:37A bylaw that requires that 5% okay, so will the

2:49:43Will the will the bylaw come before the heights are permitted?

2:49:48Because I I am looking for what the community benefit is here in terms of either the charge

2:49:53Or additional parkland or additional affordable housing units. So can you just reassure me about the sequence of that?

2:50:04Sorry through through the mayor to the councillor just to clarify

2:50:08Cpp bylaw can only look at affordable housing units. We can't we can't ask for additional

2:50:14parkland we

2:50:16Understand through the work on the downtown secondary plan. There was already some you know a deficit in in parkland

2:50:22so we are making sure that

2:50:26If there's any extra

2:50:30Ability to consider the provision of parkland beyond

2:50:34The the required affordable housing units for instance if there's any any give there

2:50:41We will be capturing

2:50:43Community benefits charges as I said in a different in a different format. There's no there's no change the percentage

2:50:49The 4% that's captured under community benefits will be the same charge will apply

2:50:56In in the downtown and elsewhere if the percentage of affordable housing units may be different by area though

2:51:04because it depends on

2:51:06Really the performer analysis or the sensitivity analysis of what the cost is to provide that unit or to build that unit

2:51:14It could be what we're seeing

2:51:17preliminarily is is actually over 5%

2:51:21in the stone road area

2:51:23So we may be getting you know more units

2:51:26In that area, but the downtown we're not we're not sure yet because we haven't done that financial work

2:51:32Okay, um, thanks more questions that I'll just follow up separately then

2:51:36through mayor gethry just a comment we had a correspondence

2:51:40From uh one proponent who thought this step back should be a should rather than a shall

2:51:45I want to publicly disagree with that. I think we have to protect the public realm

2:51:50People who've walked in downtown, toronto in the shade and the wind find it extremely unpleasant and are never going to sit at a patio there

2:51:58so

2:51:59From my perspective that needs to remain a shall so that we're protecting

2:52:03streetscapes and walkability

2:52:06Um, I was curious through you mayor gothry to staff one of the letters says

2:52:10The break even would be 25 stories

2:52:14But i'm curious is that for buildings that have to provide underground parking?

2:52:18Because for the areas near the major transit station, they are not required to provide parking at all

2:52:25And so is that break even in the letter referring to parking?

2:52:28And i'll just put a pin in the parking issue that I think there will be overflow parking

2:52:36through the mayor

2:52:37It may involve uh underground parking so

2:52:41It's difficult at this level of analysis to really get into is it going to be underground parking?

2:52:46Is it going to have parking in the podium?

2:52:48What level of parking is it going to have because obviously a lot of that will depend on the tenure and what part of the market that they're

2:52:54they're aiming it for so

2:52:56As we've had the conversations with the development community on this we've tended to focus more on

2:53:03Right sizing the scale of the development not so much specific to what how much parking to provide or anything like that

2:53:10But really thinking about where how much height do you get into that?

2:53:15Reaches a point where you're getting some efficiencies in your construction. So it's a it's an efficient construction that you can undertake

2:53:22But not going so large that the development is unsellable, right?

2:53:26There's a certain

2:53:27You know depending on the absorption here in guelph you need to be able to sell that project within 18 months or two years at the

2:53:32Absolute maximum so it's too big if there's too much density

2:53:35It actually doesn't add any additional value

2:53:38So trying to think about what that sweet spot is and and what we heard from from several of the developers that we heard was somewhere in that

2:53:44Sort of 20 to 30 range. I think we heard here in the delegations that perhaps as high as 35

2:53:50And so we're trying to make some estimates there in terms of what that that best amount is

2:53:55But also taking into consideration the things that we've heard from the community in terms of of that

2:53:59So so moderating that

2:54:01We probably got it perfect on this first go probably not and so we're certainly taking the feedback we received here tonight

2:54:07Great. Thanks through you Margot three. I see I'm laughing because I see heads shaking vigorously behind you

2:54:13as people say they don't want that that that much height I think you have done a good job in terms of

2:54:20Trying to meet the need for increased density downtown for a vibrant downtown

2:54:25I think that you are trying to be context sensitive

2:54:29And I I do agree with having a cap on the heights and that anything over and above that should be subject to community benefit

2:54:38charges

2:54:40I think anything over and above the heights you're proposing really does have to show some kind of community benefit

2:54:45Um in terms of a trade-off. So I think well done

2:54:50All right. Thank you down northern chew

2:54:54Thank you through you mr. Mayor then so I just want to

2:54:56Be clear that when we do costing on this the the parking exemptions that the downtown has

2:55:04will not be included in these

2:55:07Costings because at this point we really can't tell how much public parking we're going to have to provide as a city

2:55:14Because it parking is not going to be provided within some of these well a lot of these buildings because they're not required to some well have some but

2:55:24Yeah, I know

2:55:28There's going to be demand at some point for the city to build more parkades

2:55:32And there'll be more permits and and I just think there's sort of an offloading of costs

2:55:37There will be an offloading of costs to the municipality

2:55:40Uh, for you mr. Mayor to councillor downer

2:55:44I think there's a lot of work going on trying to understand that so we are

2:55:48With engineering looking at updating the parking master plan for this study

2:55:52We have built in some assumptions because we did here in the developer focus groups that they are likely to build some parking

2:55:58So understanding what that number is is sort of a still be to to to be determined

2:56:03Um, but yeah, we're trying to build in assumptions based on

2:56:07potential underground parking potentially structured parking

2:56:11And then all of those that information helps to feed into the parking master plan update that

2:56:15Will have to come but at this point isn't fully scheduled yet. So

2:56:20Based on bill 185, there's a lot of work to be done still

2:56:24Yeah, and the consideration of how much does it take from

2:56:27tourism people parking for tourism or shopping and things like that. So

2:56:32Just a consideration that I think is going to have to be dealt with

2:56:38Uh, I think you've tried to do a good balance here and I'm I'm

2:56:45Heights has always been an issue for me, but I'm I'm I'm coming around

2:56:50My concern, um, is mostly around those still around those edge properties along, um,

2:56:57Gordon and norfolk

2:56:59And sort of willage so I on the west side

2:57:04I'm so I I understand a lot of those were heritage and they'd be hard to probably demolish some of them the stone areas but

2:57:11um

2:57:12I'm concerned about that going to six stories and some of those some of those spots. So I I'm not I'm a little sensitive to that

2:57:20um

2:57:21I don't see this as no high rise versus sprawl. It's either one or the other

2:57:27It's I think there's a balance right?

2:57:30That we have to do and I think that's what we're trying to do here

2:57:34We're not going to increase the numbers like you said that the the 200 thousand or 208

2:57:42So, um, you know, we've done pretty good at containing our boundaries and resisting the pressure to expand beyond what we have

2:57:51In Guelph and so to me, it's not oh, well, that's the cost of high rise across the sprawl

2:57:56I doesn't mean we can go we should be able to

2:58:01Do whatever because of that argument

2:58:03I think I think there is a balance and I think I see that you're trying to achieve that

2:58:07So I appreciate that

2:58:09So those are my oh those are my and the other thing where it was raised was parks

2:58:14And I do have a concern about that in the downtown the lack of green space that we have in our downtown currently

2:58:19If we you know, I don't know how far

2:58:22We'll get with our well in turn park or that whole area

2:58:27But I do have a concern about green space in the in the downtown for people living in the high rises because we all know

2:58:33That's important for a lot of things in a community and mental health and a number of other issues

2:58:41Thanks

2:58:43Thank you and uh last on my list is chew

2:58:46Go ahead

2:58:48Thank you through you mr. Mayor

2:58:51At first I just have an administrative question

2:58:54Maybe the executive team can help me out with this

2:58:57But my understanding from the agenda forecast that the built form standards would

2:59:01Was was supposed to come along with this work?

2:59:05Do we know when the built form standards?

2:59:08Is anticipated to come to us?

2:59:11um

2:59:12I I seen the report it says

2:59:14in april

2:59:16Do you I guess that would be for receiving but

2:59:22From then till the final

2:59:25Approval do you know can you guys give me a rough timeline?

2:59:30for that

2:59:33Through the mayor to you counselor. We do anticipate

2:59:36Releasing the built form standards publicly in march. So that is our goal

2:59:41Um, I don't know that we would be coming to you for receipt in april and then a future decision

2:59:46We might be bringing them to you with official plan amendment for a decision on both

2:59:51But we can consider

2:59:53The correct process if you'd like to see them for receipt first and then

2:59:57endorsement later

2:59:58But right now our plan is to bring it to release it in in march and then bring it back for decision

3:00:05Okay, no that that's good just from my own understanding and um,

3:00:10I guess I'll just move on to comments to keep it brief. Um

3:00:14Obviously, we don't have a crystal ball into the future and

3:00:17Obviously a lot of the policies that we're trying to

3:00:20Put together is so that developers can action something quickly

3:00:24um, so I think it's important for the public to get that understanding. Um,

3:00:28and there are

3:00:30Specific properties that um folks are trying to table forward. Um

3:00:35For site plan. So I think um, we just have to tell that story a little bit better. Um here in the public and

3:00:41For me, yeah seeing is believing and I do appreciate

3:00:45Um, Tim Smith and his delegation because I think it was very articulate in

3:00:51Uh, and what we're conceptualizing with the assumptions and ultimately I think that's what really matters to us here in the community that

3:00:59Um, the built form that is being put together is reflective of how we would like

3:01:05That to enhance our green spaces. Um

3:01:08Down to the river for example. So I think just for

3:01:12food for thought thoughts to the

3:01:15consultant that were

3:01:17That we've hired. Um, I just like to see more short

3:01:21Very clear short medium and long term

3:01:23Scenario testing and just very clear assumptions. Uh, that are that we are

3:01:28putting together

3:01:30Just so we're very transparent with the public and with the developer community as well because we have folks that

3:01:35Have their emphasis on the financial feasibility and of course we can't do that for every single

3:01:41Property and parcel on like within the downtown. There's just no time for that

3:01:45But I think there can be more confidence to articulate that story. Um, like we the letter from fusion for example is a good example

3:01:55it talks about how um

3:01:58There's an assumption that we can't make anything feasible if it's below 25 stories

3:02:03And I think we have an opportunity to challenge that assumption and just to ground truth some of that those concerns there

3:02:10to councillor verks point and

3:02:12Just so the constituent downtown that came forward today

3:02:17Yeah, there I think that property he's talking about on the site

3:02:20It used to be a former gas station and there's a lot of environmental remediation that has to take place to make that site work properly

3:02:27so

3:02:29I think we just have to emphasize

3:02:31Yeah, like what it is that

3:02:34We're trying to do in the short term

3:02:37for some of the folks that are

3:02:39shovel ready

3:02:40And how we're going to address some of these site specific concerns with stuff like the transportation demand management plan

3:02:48um

3:02:49And just make it very clear for people what we're looking at

3:02:52So if there's a clear methodology to kind of articulate these things

3:02:56I think we've been in good shape and I think the public is coming around to

3:03:00densification downtown because it is something that we need

3:03:04And those are just my final remarks for your consideration

3:03:08Thank you

3:03:11Thank you. We're just almost done here. I'm going to go to uh

3:03:14Boussatil and then to uh billings is going to wrap us up. I think okay

3:03:19Um, just so everyone knows just before thank you. Sorry linda for interrupting you

3:03:24We're gonna we're going to finish this off

3:03:26Then we are going to take a five to ten minute break. Okay, then we're going to come back

3:03:30And we're going to do the final the final agenda item. Just want to give everyone that heads up. Okay

3:03:35Sorry councillor Busuttil go ahead. No apology and through the mayor. Thank you very much to the staff for this

3:03:40So i'm not going to reiterate what my colleagues have said

3:03:43I'm going to do my comments first which are in addition to building height downtown toronto the lack of public spaces green public spaces

3:03:52My parents are at church and front street and there's like a little tiny triangle by flat iron building for dogs and

3:03:58People and kids and things like that. So very concerned about public parks parking

3:04:04Water i'm concerned about it's almost like we need a chart to say here's an application

3:04:10Here's the demand like we need almost like a a backwards clock to say what is the demand on our water?

3:04:16upfront for all of our conversations and the other comment was around um, just a better understanding around other

3:04:23infrastructure constraints in the downtown and the demands that will put on us to invest in infrastructure

3:04:32To make the development happen

3:04:34The only question I had was raised I think by the delegations. I'm aware of the cpp that's taking place right now for stone road area

3:04:42I can't remember if you could just remind me on the timelines for the downtown

3:04:53Through the mayor to council Boussatil

3:04:55We're looking at providing a draft of the bylaw certainly

3:05:01I would say at this point in time maybe

3:05:04Early summer with a a decision to be made before the end of the year. Okay. Thank you

3:05:16and uh billings please

3:05:21um

3:05:22It would be north folk and and paisley on the one side the south side of paisley

3:05:27We have many more stories being proposed and then on the other side where the current library is

3:05:34we have less and

3:05:37It's a good corner for density

3:05:39So I was just wondering why that site which is the current library site

3:05:45Isn't being proposed to have more stories

3:05:53Through the mayor along that corridor. We've sort of tried to take into account the lot structure there

3:05:58Certainly along the eastern sorry the western edge of of north folk. There's some

3:06:04Sort of capping sites at the end of the street to obviously the the gas station site is a key one

3:06:09On the other side as we get into some of these triangular blocks

3:06:12The lot structure becomes really sort of broken down and problematic

3:06:16It makes it somewhat difficult to provide some additional density there

3:06:19But I think what we've heard here both from the delegations and from some of the counselors is that there may be an opportunity to re-examine that corridor and

3:06:26I think you're a little bit more we can certainly take that away

3:06:29Yeah, I'd like to re-examine that corridor and then the another question I have through your worship and it's just a question

3:06:36It's not too upset anyone so I want to go west and north folk

3:06:40And it's still a number of sites are within the two to four stories

3:06:46Which I've never understood that because there are other sites within the city residential areas

3:06:54And and you have a site and in the op

3:06:57You can build an apartment up to six stories

3:07:01But yet

3:07:02We're in the downtown and this is only two to four

3:07:06So I was just wondering if staff could explain that because it just doesn't make sense

3:07:14Through the mayor sorry just clarifying council you're looking at those areas

3:07:20West west of north folk but up on the escarpment

3:07:23correct

3:07:25So we looked at those I think their location sort of higher up on the escarpment kind of

3:07:30Gives any sort of additional height in that location a lot more permanence than it would in in some of the other lower line areas

3:07:36It's also they're immediately adjacent to

3:07:40Sort of established neighborhoods and so it made sense for those to be somewhat of a transition zone

3:07:45The access up and down there actually is somewhat difficult as well. Okay, but that's what I'm saying through your worship again

3:07:51We have other

3:07:53established residential

3:07:55neighborhoods and areas in the city and there will be a site that's vacant

3:08:00Right within all the residential homes and and yet you're allowed to go six stories

3:08:07So I was just

3:08:10Wondering if it's something that we could take another look at

3:08:13Absolutely

3:08:15Okay, thank you your worship. All right. Thanks everyone. Now you're left with me

3:08:22I'll go fast as fast as I can just bullet points take them away. Okay

3:08:33So

3:08:34The first thing that jumped out to me was

3:08:41One of the delegates, I forget who it was said the word

3:08:44We can maybe be a bit bolder. I wrote down here that you know, I think this is this is like a key moment

3:08:52for us to really

3:08:54Embrace this opportunity

3:08:57Boulder sure we can use that word if you want. Um, I I just feel like we're like

3:09:0585 percent of the way there. That's just my personal feeling. I feel like

3:09:09There's 15 percent that could push us a little bit more for

3:09:15A little bit more and so what what does the word more mean?

3:09:18I it doesn't necessarily mean height even though my inclination personally would be that there should be

3:09:25more height

3:09:27So I'll just say that out loud from my perspective. It could be getting rid of this

3:09:33Density issue on those two sites one on the wood site and somewhere else as well

3:09:40Like just get rid of that like just you know

3:09:44Just get rid of it

3:09:46The urban design standards, uh, again, like I I think that's I think that's a really good tool where we can try to

3:09:54Adapt what we're looking for for the optics sort of of the downtown area and where where these are are there, but

3:10:02So I just I just want to remind everybody including myself about that

3:10:06Um, I am I am completely different than my my friendly colleague here

3:10:11Councillor Ororque around the should versus shall I am not a fan of the wedding cakes

3:10:17I am not a fan of that at all

3:10:19They completely are ugly in my viewpoint

3:10:23And they take away housing

3:10:26They take away housing

3:10:28um, and so

3:10:30looking at these

3:10:32constant step backs you are seeing more and more and more cities

3:10:37Not doing that anymore because they realize from a planning perspective

3:10:43and from a density perspective that they are are not

3:10:48They're not really positive outcomes to sort of the urban fabric

3:10:52However, where I am aligned with my colleague is that that's where the urban design and maybe being careful

3:10:59Around full corridors of just tall concrete. I get it. That's not what I want either

3:11:05But I think the should and shall

3:11:08issue

3:11:09I I would lean more around should because then a conversation can happen with developers around that because we are literally

3:11:17Eliminating housing when we do that those step backs

3:11:19Um, so I just thought I'd say that

3:11:22um

3:11:24Baker street, I know that the

3:11:26I I'm a little bit. I don't think it's in the view corridor

3:11:30where

3:11:31The windmill site is

3:11:34I I I don't understand why that can't be higher. So I'd like you to again. I don't understand some justification there

3:11:39But that's a takeaway for you there

3:11:42Um, and then I'd like to just talk to you finally about the the view corridors

3:11:47um, I

3:11:48Just want to remind everyone that even when the province kind of came in and said 23 stories everywhere

3:11:54And that was a surprise to everybody

3:11:57Even they kept the view corridors

3:12:00Well, so just just remember that okay, so um

3:12:03I am not totally tied to

3:12:07All of the view corridors personally, but I can tell that that it's it's moving in that direction

3:12:13And I think that's a balanced approach and I think that's fine

3:12:16But I think where we can have some height like Baker street as an example through that area. I think that should be

3:12:22allowed

3:12:24And then finally I'd like to ask about the flood plain. Here's a question for you from me

3:12:30You're saying that the GRCA you're in contact with them. They're going to be doing maybe some studies or hiring their own consultant

3:12:36So, you know, I'm a let's get going type of guy. And so I'm just you know, here we are like a couple years ago

3:12:44There was already a development application for that area of where the flood plain was

3:12:48Then the province came in not not on us the province came in and said hey, you have to get permissions from the

3:12:55Ministry of the environment and the Ministry of Natural Resources before you can kind of get going on this site

3:13:00So everyone kind of understood that

3:13:02Um, like where are we in the timing of this? Like I just want certainty

3:13:07For our entire planning justification for the downtown and that is a key area

3:13:13So I just really want to know like what what's holding up sort of that flood plain area

3:13:18Is there anything on us that's holding that up or is that fully on the GRCA and their flood plain?

3:13:24technical studies that they need to do

3:13:28To the mayor so you're all correct when opa ad came back the ministry and municipal affairs specifically said

3:13:34That we had to take a look at our special policy area

3:13:37And no development could happen unless in conjunction with ministry municipal affairs and mnr

3:13:42So GRCA has advanced the work on the study of the flood plain and they've put it

3:13:48They've started work on it and are going to bring it for by the end of 2025 is

3:13:52Brenna

3:13:53Mentioned and then we're going to follow up with the the policy format around that

3:13:58So the work has to be done for the flood plain first

3:14:00So the ministry asked us through opa ad everybody's working hard to get it

3:14:04But it's it's a big technical report and looking at property by property to see what can happen

3:14:09And that's why those in the special policy area on that mapping

3:14:13Those heights have remained as is so we saw from the delegates, you know higher heights

3:14:19But until until that work is done

3:14:22We're not in a position to move that so as Brenna mentioned, it's probably

3:14:26You know down how tights 2.0, which will come back

3:14:29But the the soonest it can come back is 2026

3:14:34All right, so all I would ask is a takeaway because I fully recognize it's a takeaway that

3:14:38As the g rca thing is done that we are we are in parallel with them doing whatever's coming out of that

3:14:44To get the 2.0 done and and solidified so we can move forward

3:14:49I understand the

3:14:51The permitting system and how there's the relationship between some extra height for community good. I understand that

3:14:59You know, I I would I would personally argue that the wood site

3:15:04You've already allowed 20. I would personally argue that just if this again, you have to justify it

3:15:10I'm not that type of guy, but if you if it can be justified at the 24, they're they're looking for 24 like

3:15:17My my instinct is to say just just just allow the 24

3:15:22Well, it's just allow them to get going. I bet you any money there'll be a lot of community benefit that will come out of that

3:15:27With that certainty anyways, that's my personal position on that one

3:15:31Um, other than that, I would like to echo what councillor downer said about the word balance

3:15:35I think this is this is well done as a balance

3:15:40In fact, many of the developers here even said like you can incorporate heritage

3:15:43There was nobody here saying like in fact, I heard from nobody that was like heritage is going to get in the way

3:15:48I heard none of that. So I think that's important

3:15:51I'm glad we didn't go 23 everywhere, which is what was originally planned

3:15:55And I'm glad that we're not lower than what I kind of thought we would be lower and I'd be more upset

3:16:01So I'm glad to see that we're at where we're at. But again, I'm going to just rest on that

3:16:06I think personally we're 85 of the way there. I think we need a little bit more

3:16:12Flexibility a little bit more height maybe a little bit more density make it easier

3:16:17So that the vision of the things that are almost shovel ready can literally become shovels in the ground and we can get going

3:16:25I I think I think everyone would probably be okay with that to a certain degree

3:16:30And I'm looking forward to maybe that conversation with whatever that is when I when it comes back out. Okay

3:16:35With that, thank you for moving and seconding to and Richardson

3:16:39And I will call the vote then as anyone against just receiving this information

3:16:45Nobody great. Thank you very much. So as I promised, we're going to take a break

3:16:50It is right now 706. Why don't we say that we come back here at 715? Okay, we'll just start right at 715

3:16:56Take a quick break and then we just got that last the last one that's in front of us

3:17:00Which is about the community improvement plan for the housing. Okay, so we'll be right back here at 715. Thanks everyone

3:25:44Okay, this is your 30 second warning everybody in the room and online

3:26:23Just looking for cameras online there if they could be turned. Oh, we got we got quorum. Thank you councillor Goller to the rescue

3:26:30Okay, I will call the meeting back to order. We're on our last item. Thanks for sticking with us everybody

3:26:36affordable housing community improvement plan now Christine Chapman is going to is going to do the presentation for

3:26:44the final

3:26:45option for council to approve on this plan so we're excited to hear about the presentation and then a couple of delegations

3:26:53And I'll turn it over to you Christine go ahead

3:27:01Great. Thank you. Good evening mayor and council

3:27:05Staff are here today to seek approval of the city's first affordable housing community improvement plan

3:27:11This plan was first presented to council at a statutory public meeting on november 13th of last year

3:27:17The plan has been amended with minor changes and new administrative parameters

3:27:24Given this is the second time that you've seen this plan today's presentation will focus on updates that have been made

3:27:31Following feedback received at the public meeting

3:27:34additional considerations and follow-up based on council's requests

3:27:39First we'll quickly revisit the programs and funding in out amounts

3:27:43Then we'll go over what the updates have been since november

3:27:50An overview of the new compliance parameters and then next steps if approved

3:27:57We'll start with a reminder of what we mean when we're talking about affordable rental and ownership rates related to this plan

3:28:05Affordability benchmarks shown here have been determined by the province for gwell

3:28:10And would be applied through this plan for the various unit sizes shown

3:28:17Affordability benchmarks are expected to be updated on an annual basis by the province

3:28:25So revis revisiting the grants you will notice there have been some adjustments to the naming of programs one and two to make them easier

3:28:32to communicate

3:28:33As part of our marketing plan

3:28:35The first program is the vacant unit renewal grant

3:28:39This grant provides funds toward the renovation and conversion of vacant commercial

3:28:45Office or uninhabitable residential space into affordable rental units

3:28:49The grant provides up to a hundred thousand dollars per affordable unit for eligible construction costs and up to

3:28:58A twenty thousand dollars of additional funding for accessibility features

3:29:03This program is funded through the housing accelerator fund and is payable at the time of building permit approval

3:29:09Which is required by december 31st 2026

3:29:14Funded units must remain affordable for 25 years through this program

3:29:21The new affordable housing unit grant this grant provides funds toward including affordable rental and ownership units and new build

3:29:30Medrise projects

3:29:32The grant provides up to 25 000 dollars per affordable unit for eligible construction costs

3:29:37The grant amount is roughly the equivalent of 10 years of taxes that would be paid to the city on the additional affordable unit

3:29:46Funding for this program would need to be considered through future multi-year budgeting processes

3:29:51However, if the city enters into discussions with a proponent whose project can meet the housing accelerator fund timelines

3:29:59Then consideration will be made to utilizing these funds for the application

3:30:05Funded units through this program must also remain affordable for 25 years

3:30:12The third program is the additional dwelling unit grant

3:30:16Which provides funds for adding units to a home and includes things like basement apartments in-law suites and tiny homes

3:30:23The program has two streams

3:30:26The homeowner stream, which is one unit per property

3:30:30It provides up to 20 000 dollars per affordable unit for eligible construction costs and up to 10 000 dollars of additional funding

3:30:37for added accessibility features

3:30:40It also covers up to 20 000 dollars toward infrastructure upgrades needed in the public realm to support the added affordable unit

3:30:48The second stream is the is the project stream and is a developer led stream

3:30:55And may fund up to six units

3:30:57The grant amounts for infrastructure upgrades and accessibility features is the same as the homeowner stream

3:31:03But instead of 20 000 dollars for eligible construction costs per unit. This stream is 10 000 dollars

3:31:10For both streams grants are funded through the housing accelerator fund and payable at the time of building permit approval

3:31:16Which is also required by december 31st

3:31:202026

3:31:23Funded additional dwelling units must remain affordable for 15 years

3:31:31At the november public meeting council requested two specific program changes which have been implemented

3:31:37First that the minimum unit size requirements be removed from all programs in order to expand the scope of projects that would be eligible to receive funding

3:31:46While all units taking advantage of this plan must contain full private

3:31:52cooking eating living sleeping in sanitary space room sizes now line with the minimum requirements of the ontario building code

3:32:00Secondly council requested the removal of the minimum number of units required to participate in the additional dwelling unit program

3:32:07This has been removed to give small scale landowners more opportunity to to put forward eligible projects

3:32:16Aside from those two directions, there were also a number of other considerations that council asked staff to review

3:32:22The first consideration was looking at extending the plan's affordability timelines beyond that of 15 and 25 years

3:32:31The proposed affordable

3:32:33The proposed affordability timelines need to be a balanced approach between the housing accelerator fund requirements

3:32:40Ensuring long-term afford affordability while also keeping the programs attractive to applicants

3:32:47The intention is for the value of the grant to make it financially feasible for the housing provider to create an affordable unit

3:32:56But is not intended to subsidize the difference between an affordable and market rent for the duration of the agreement

3:33:04For those reasons the proposed periods of affordability have been retained as initially proposed

3:33:10Council also asked staff to confirm the differences between the federal and provincial approach to thresholds of affordability

3:33:18In short the federal and provincial definitions both consider a unit

3:33:23affordable if it costs less than 30 of a households before tax income

3:33:28The provincial definition then goes further and specifies that the 30 percent

3:33:34That it is 30 for low to moderate income households

3:33:38specifically those in the 30th to 60th income percentiles

3:33:44Ultimately as an Ontario municipality the city is required to use the provincial definition of affordability

3:33:50And this is also the metric that has been used to determine wealth's

3:33:54housing needs in the 2024 housing affordability strategy

3:33:58Finally council requested clarification on the plausibility of stacking the additional dwelling unit grant with the greener homes grant

3:34:05also administered through the city

3:34:07The funder of the greener homes grant the federation of canadian miss pailities has confirmed that yes

3:34:13This is possible where the project meets the eligibility criteria for both programs

3:34:21In addition to program changes and considerations two motions were passed by council at the public meeting

3:34:26The first motion in short directed staff to consider a deferral of property taxes through incremental tax financing

3:34:33For non-profit developers who are building affordable home ownership projects

3:34:39Not for profits who are building affordable home ownership units

3:34:43Would fit into program two of this plan as previously noted the program provides roughly the property tax paid on the unit over 10 years

3:34:52working out to

3:34:54$2,500 a year

3:34:56In addition, this grant is provided up front rather than over time

3:35:00This this is a program enhancement that was based on feedback through our engagement with the development community

3:35:08Additional tax increment financing would cause the same increment then to be provided twice

3:35:17The second motion directed staff to consider no interest deferral or municipal application permit fees

3:35:23Which would then would be paid at a building permit approval

3:35:28On march 18th staff will be coming to council with a semi annual housing report that will be presenting a seed funding

3:35:35Funded grant program that meets this direction requested by council and in fulfillment of action 2.2

3:35:421 of the 2024 housing affordability strategy

3:35:50So staff also committed to providing some clarity at this meeting on the parameters by which the program would be administered to ensure compliance

3:35:59First all grant recipients will be required to sign an agreement with the city outlining their obligations to receive funding

3:36:08In order to monitor affordability compliance

3:36:11The property owner will be required to submit a declaration on an annual basis

3:36:16Confirming that the units remain at or below the provincial affordability benchmarks

3:36:22Each year the city will send out a reminder letter to the property owner and tenant

3:36:27Of funded projects outlining their obligations in any revisions made to the annual provincial benchmarks in effect

3:36:33An administrative penalty will be applied to any properties for which an annual declaration is not received by the city

3:36:41Continued failure to submit a declaration constitutes a non-compliance with the program obligations and would trigger

3:36:47The repayment of the grant including any outstanding interest in administrative fees

3:36:53If in the event the ownership of the property is transferred

3:36:57This funding agreement will be listed on the title of the property

3:37:00And the new property owner would be made aware of the agreement on obligations during a standard land sale title search

3:37:07For additional security grants of a hundred thousand dollars and more

3:37:12Will have both the agreement and a collateral mortgage equal to the value of the grant registered against the title of the property

3:37:19If the grant recipient fails to comply with terms of that agreement

3:37:25They will be required to repay the grant plus interest and penalties

3:37:29staff recognized that the stringency

3:37:31Of repayment terms has an impact on the willingness of property owners to participate in the program

3:37:37And therefore the repayment schedule agreed to by the property owner is intended to balance

3:37:42The effect of the penalties with the impact on the property owner's willingness to develop affordable housing

3:37:49And next steps

3:37:51If well first affordable housing cip is approved today

3:37:56It will initiate a 20 day statutory appeal period after which with no appeal we can start processing applications starting in early March

3:38:04A communications plan is already underway and includes digital and direct communications

3:38:10to

3:38:11Communication to home builders landlords non-profit and homeowners who are interested in creating affordable housing in

3:38:17Guelph

3:38:19Thank you, and we're here to answer any questions. Thank you, Christine. We appreciate your time

3:38:24Thank you, Christine. We appreciate you and your presentation. I am just going to go to our two delegations

3:38:32Uh, chad mcbane is first

3:38:34From one point association of realtors and then after chad

3:38:38Uh, morgan danney who is also here is going to come up next

3:38:43Uh, no more than five minutes for this one and you'll hear a chime at the

3:38:47Four minute 30 second mark as the warning again your microphone will be turned off at five minutes. Um

3:38:53So please don't get to that point

3:38:56Is it 10 minutes for this one as well?

3:39:01Okay, interesting

3:39:04But we're here to approve approve and it's 10 minutes

3:39:07I'm gonna turn off the microphone to confer with the clerk

3:39:55Staff are conferring uh to my colleagues online. Just if you don't hear anything

3:40:00We'll see if uh

3:40:02I'm wrong

3:40:05Confirmed 10 minutes. I'm wrong

3:40:09Okay, all right. Um, you have up till 10 minutes. You'll hear a time at nine minutes and 30 seconds

3:40:16Don't get to 10 minutes though. The microphone will be turned off

3:40:19Over to you chad. Thank you for waiting. Go ahead. Thank you

3:40:22Good evening mayor guthrie members of council and city staff

3:40:26My name is chad mcbane. I'm a senior vice president in sales with realty executives, which has a brokerage office based here in guelph

3:40:33I'm here today on behalf of the one point association of realtors

3:40:36Some of you may know that this is actually a new association representing salespeople and brokers here in guelph in the surrounding region

3:40:45We have approximately 3000 members from here on Perth all the way to muscoca and perry sound

3:40:50Our members represent buyers sellers investors and renters across guelph

3:40:56We are deeply invested in the future of housing in this community

3:40:59And we're here to express our strong support for the affordable housing community improvement plan

3:41:05Housing affordability is one of the most pressing issues facing our city

3:41:10It is an issue that is no longer confined to just one demographic or income bracket

3:41:15First time buyers

3:41:17seniors looking to downsize

3:41:19Young families trying to stay in the city where they work and renters

3:41:23Of all backgrounds are feeling the effects of an increasingly challenging market

3:41:28As real estate professionals we see this reality play out every day

3:41:32We see the frustration of buyers who are priced out the worry of tenants struggling to keep up with their rising rents

3:41:38And the challenges faced by those who simply want to put down roots in a community that they love

3:41:44Guelph's housing needs are growing and the numbers are clear

3:41:48According to the city's 2024 housing affordability strategy

3:41:518700 affordable housing units will be required by 2051 to meet the needs of our growing population

3:41:59That is a significant challenge

3:42:01And it is one that requires immediate coordinated and innovative action

3:42:07The affordable housing sip if you will is a vital step in the right direction because it creates incentives that will help unlock housing supply

3:42:14While ensuring affordability commitments are upheld over the long term

3:42:18The programs included in this plan reflect a thoughtful and strategic approach to tackling the issue

3:42:27The vacant unit renewal grant for example

3:42:30Is a practical tool that will help convert underutilized spaces

3:42:34Whether it's an empty commercial unit or an office or a long vacant residential unit

3:42:40Into much needed affordable rental housing

3:42:43We know that guelph has properties that could be put to better use

3:42:46And in this program provides a direct pathway to do just that

3:42:51The additional dwelling unit grant is another initiative that is the potential to make meaningful impact

3:42:57By supporting homeowners who want to create additional rental units on their properties

3:43:01This program will help increase the supply of rental housing and established neighborhoods

3:43:06It also empowers local residents to be part of the solution

3:43:10Giving them an opportunity to contribute to the city's housing stock

3:43:14While generating additional income for themselves

3:43:17We know that many homeowners would like to build an additional unit

3:43:21Whether for a family member a long-term tenant or to help pay their own mortgage, but the upfront cost can be a barrier

3:43:29This program will move some of those financial hurdles and makes it more feasible for the people to move forward with those projects

3:43:37Another crucial element of this plan is the new affordable housing unit grant

3:43:40Which is designed to encourage the development of purpose built affordable housing

3:43:45While we recognize that this program is not yet funded

3:43:48We strongly support the intent behind it and encourage the city to prioritize securing the necessary resources to bring it to life

3:43:57Purpose built rental housing is a long-term solution that provides stability in the rental market

3:44:02And the sooner that we can get to more of these projects in the ground the better

3:44:06One of the most commendable aspects of this plan is the city's commitment to ensuring that affordability is maintained over time

3:44:13The requirement for grant recipients to keep their units affordable for 15 to 25 years

3:44:20Depending on the program provides a long-term security for the tenants and helps prevent speculative development from undermining the intent of these incentives

3:44:30Additionally the safeguards put in place such as agreements registered on title and ongoing compliance monitoring

3:44:36Demonstrate that this plan is not just about increasing supply

3:44:40But about ensuring that supply range is generally affordable

3:44:45As an association that represents those working on the front lines of housing

3:44:48We recognize that financial incentives alone will not solve the affordability crisis

3:44:53However, there are crucial tools that can help make otherwise unfeasible projects a reality

3:45:01The funding allocated through the housing accelerator fund has given guaff an opportunity to make significant progress in a short period of time

3:45:07And we encourage the city continue advocating for sustainable long-term investment in housing affordability

3:45:14Beyond financial incentives. We also believe that regulatory and policy changes should continue to complement these efforts

3:45:20Streamlining approval processes reducing red tape for affordable housing projects

3:45:25And ensuring zoning policies support diverse housing options

3:45:29Will all be essential to maximize the impact of affordable housing

3:45:33sip if you will

3:45:36We appreciate that the city has already taken steps to align this plan with recent provincial and federal legislative changes

3:45:42And we encourage continued collaboration between all levels of government to ensure that policies remain responsive to the needs of the community

3:45:50Housing is more than just a market issue

3:45:52Is a fundamental pillar of a strong healthy and thriving community

3:45:57When people have access to stable and affordable housing

3:46:00They are better able to contribute to the local economy

3:46:03Engage with their neighborhoods and build the kind of city that we all want to live in

3:46:09The affordable housing community improvement plan represents a proactive and practical approach to addressing this challenge

3:46:15And we urge council to move forward with its approval and implementation

3:46:19On behalf of the one point association of realtors

3:46:22We thank you for your leadership on this issue and for your commitment to making a lawful place where housing is not just available

3:46:28But truly accessible to all

3:46:30We look forward to continuing to work together to build a future where individuals and families can find a home that meets their needs

3:46:37Their budget and their aspirations

3:46:40Thank you very much. And if you have any questions feel free

3:46:44Thank you so much Chad for you and the organization to come and delegate. Is there any questions at okay council or work has one for you

3:46:52Thanks, mayor Guthrie

3:46:53Through you to mr. McBain just just curious how this then plays out on the ground

3:46:57So the city comes up with a great program like this funded by the federal government and then people say what I didn't know that was a

3:47:04That was available and all of this needs to be you know, realized by the end of 2026

3:47:11so

3:47:12Is is your intention with one point to be talking to potential buyers when you're looking at a property and saying

3:47:19You know, if you wanted to put an ad you here there's funding from the city

3:47:22Like do you see the ad you are these grants as an opportunity to help your your buyers?

3:47:32Access the housing market to finance their new property. Can you help us help others is what I'm asking

3:47:40Thank you through the mayor

3:47:43I would suggest that it would probably be a number of ways and the most obvious would be

3:47:50Talking to our potential buyers to let them know that

3:47:53Potentially down the road there might be opportunities for them to whether it's in laws or or potential tenants

3:48:00But I think something that's often overlooked

3:48:02It would be just the fact that we also work with people that are looking to rent properties. So

3:48:10Encouraging this would be more of a marketing

3:48:12Play from our perspective where we just simply a community messaging to let people know that

3:48:18It may be a client of ours. It might not be but these programs are

3:48:22Coming down the pipeline and people should know about them because we have lots of of rental clients as well. That'd be great. Thank you

3:48:29Thank you chat

3:48:31And oh counselor just don't go away. Councillor Allt has a question too. I think

3:48:35Thank you very much america 3. It's it's a fairly simple one

3:48:39But we've seen some numbers in the staff presentation

3:48:44regarding

3:48:46What we would consider to be typical rents in your experience. Are we dealing with the correct numbers?

3:48:55Through the mayor counselor

3:48:56I actually don't recall the the numbers that were given but I can tell you based on recent experience and recent data from

3:49:04from our board

3:49:06A one bedroom englob is now over $2,000 a month and you can obviously go up from there. So

3:49:13Thank you. Thank you

3:49:15Great. Thank you

3:49:17I think rental dot ca just released their numbers showing gulf 11th in canada

3:49:23So just just to jump in there with a little bit of some data

3:49:28Chad, there's no other questions. Thank you very much to your organization for presenting today. Thank you. Thank you

3:49:33And uh morgan dandy come on up

3:49:58And welcome morgan. You know the you know the drill. So i'll just turn it over to you whenever you're ready. Go right ahead

3:50:04Mayor counselors and staff. Thanks for bringing this up today

3:50:10and thanks to staff for all the work on the housing accelerator

3:50:15fund community

3:50:16improvement plan as well as to the counselors for the addition of the couple of items

3:50:23That were to be reported upon

3:50:26My hope is that after this is passed today

3:50:29Guelph will have more than enough uptake

3:50:32and any change in government at the federal level

3:50:36Will not be of any consequence whatsoever

3:50:40There was one paragraph that created a little additional curiosity for me in that

3:50:47Guelph will quote need

3:50:508700 affordable units by

3:50:532051

3:50:55And that just made me kind of wonder

3:50:58How many of those numbers

3:51:00Are included in our current deficit?

3:51:04Just a curiosity

3:51:07In the report the key items that have changed are in my opinion necessary

3:51:13First aligning the unit size with the Ontario building code

3:51:18Makes creating a built form much easier and removes a divide that would have been created between affordable and market rate units

3:51:28second

3:51:29Removing the minimum ad use for a developer for the developer stream

3:51:35Will enable those properties that can actually

3:51:38support to ad use

3:51:41To work with a developer because most individual homeowners would not be able to afford two

3:51:47ad use I know that the home that I previously owned would actually support

3:51:53two ad use in the back. So I know there's a lot of properties that

3:51:58Could benefit from that. So I was really glad to see that

3:52:06and then finally

3:52:08The name changes to the different programs makes them more clear

3:52:13And the explanation as to why the length of affordability was set as it was helps to understand how

3:52:21balancing has been done

3:52:24In conclusion, I am grateful for all of the work that's gone into the

3:52:29Housing accelerator fund community improvement plan as well as the other components of affordable housing incentives

3:52:38For our city and I look forward to hearing about the successes that come through Guelph's renewed focus

3:52:45On providing homes we can afford in the city. We love

3:52:52Great. Thank you, Morgan. Is there is there any questions for Morgan's presentation?

3:52:57There is it. Thanks for sticking it out all all day here with us

3:53:03Okay, a counselor of busatil and counselor downer mentioned that they'd be willing to move and second

3:53:09this oh boy

3:53:12Oh, wow

3:53:14So I just have to ask

3:53:15Have we not already done all this?

3:53:17There's a guy's just long on the day for me. We've already had this come to us. We gave all the feedback

3:53:22We did so why why are we having to do this all over again? And that's fine. I'm just I'm just curious

3:53:27why I'm thinking that I'm

3:53:31To the mayor the planning act requires a 20 days notice and I think last time when we advertised this meeting

3:53:38Because when it was published it was only 18 days. So we're just dotting our eyes and crossing our t's

3:53:43So this is a little bit different. We have had a public meeting. Okay, but we've provided

3:53:48more

3:53:49Than enough notice this time. So uh, you feel free to make a decision tonight as well

3:53:56We want to dot eyes and cross t's

3:53:59So I understand is there anyone in the room that wish to also comment on this then before the vote?

3:54:06No, okay, then the number is going to come up on the screen

3:54:10five one nine eight three seven

3:54:12fifty six zero three

3:54:14and we'll wait like three to five minutes again just to see if there's someone that wanted to

3:54:19To comment on this before we get back to

3:54:22Comments questions or the final vote. So just bear with us for three to five minutes. Thank you

3:56:57Okay, I'll call the meeting back to order my friends online there if you want to

3:57:01Turn on your cameras for us

3:57:03We had one caller wish to speak on the item by the name of eric martin

3:57:09Eric it's marigot three. Can you hear me? Okay?

3:57:21Hi, eric. Thank you very much for joining us

3:57:24I will turn it over to you. We can hear you clearly. Thank you

3:57:28And you have up to 10 minutes if you need it as well. So you go right ahead

3:57:32All right, I appreciate the time and counselors and the former delegates here

3:57:38Just to misguide the phone number that you put on the screen says marriage licenses. So I'm not here to be

3:57:48We have one call speak on the item by the name of eric martin three. Can you hear me? Okay?

3:57:56I do I hear you. Do you hear me?

3:58:02Are you hearing me sounded way better than that eric? Can you just uh, do you have like?

3:58:08Your internet also streaming the the meeting. I'm on my phone

3:58:17Okay, um, we could just also hear like a seven second delay there as well

3:58:21So I'm going to start the timing over for you again your full time minutes if you need it

3:58:26And uh, and you and you go right ahead and uh, yeah, we won't do marriage licensing

3:58:31But you go right ahead and uh, do your presentation

3:58:34All right, I just wanted to thank the council and the staff for the report that that's

3:58:41Hope you being approved tonight. I think it shows that you asked for feedback in in november and um,

3:58:48And I was I felt heard I think that um the points that have changed were what um will improve the program

3:58:55And I hope it's uh, uh, a resounding success. I just wanted to say thank you. I don't know if anybody ever

3:59:01Called in to say thanks. Well, we'll put you on the agenda every time eric

3:59:11Eric, could you join us last time were you in a were you a delegate the last time?

3:59:16I came in november. Yeah, I doubted in november. I had lots of interactions with staff and also you the mayor

3:59:23Yeah, okay. Thank you

3:59:25Well, it looks like uh, it looks like we uh

3:59:28You were heard as you said so thank you. Let me just ask if there's any follow-up questions for you though

3:59:34There isn't so eric. Thank you very much for calling in

3:59:37Okay, have a great night. Yeah you as well. Take care

3:59:42Okay

3:59:44For real this time. It's back to us

3:59:46boost itill

3:59:48Downer have moved and seconded this

3:59:51Are there any questions on this should we have a third meeting on this? No, okay council or if you have a question

3:59:58Or a comment just do it all wrapped up into one before I call the vote or orc

4:00:02Thank you. Marga three three to our staff just one question

4:00:06The intent of these grants is to create more

4:00:11Long-term rental affordable rental, right?

4:00:15Or housing, but I'm not sure how you'd square that

4:00:19What measures are in place to make sure

4:00:23That the unit that is built with funds from the city does not become a short-term rental and then a

4:00:30Commercial venture for the proponent

4:00:35Through the mayor to council or orc. So

4:00:39Christine touched on it briefly what we're going to do is

4:00:43Wherever we provide funding we're going to register that on title

4:00:48And then annually we'll be sending

4:00:51A note or letter to the property owner as well as the tenant

4:00:55Having them to declare that that unit is

4:00:59In compliance with the terms of the grant that we provided them

4:01:03And and then obviously the tenant would say yes, I am actually getting charged that that rate

4:01:10If they're not in compliance with that they'll have a period of time when they can get back into compliance

4:01:15If they choose not to do so then there will be a repayment of the grant

4:01:19Plus any penalties or interest charges

4:01:22Thank you. So through you mayor 3 the expectation is that this passes tonight and then early march people can start applying for

4:01:31The grants to start putting shovels in the ground

4:01:33uh through the mayor uh, yeah the eight there

4:01:37There's been a lot of interest in all three programs. Um, so we're really confident as the the team here that we're going to see some

4:01:45Really good uptake and and see some units

4:01:48Built or created, you know in the short term. So yeah, fantastic. We're getting all set up ready to go in march. Great. Thank you

4:01:58Great with that. Can I call the vote everybody?

4:02:01Looks like I can

4:02:02All right, just want to say thank you to everyone that brought us to this moment

4:02:06And uh, I'm really excited about seeing some of the results. So thank you very much

4:02:10Of all those as anyone against the recommendation in front of us

4:02:16Nobody that's unanimous. So thank you very much that passes

4:02:20And so that brings me to our bylaws councillor Allt you're going to

4:02:26Help us with that. I think tonight's up on the screen for you. Thank you very much. Mayor Guthrie

4:02:31Moved by alt seconded busitile that bylaws

4:02:352025 to 1026 all these are 2025 to 1035 to 1036

4:02:4221042 to 1043 to 1046 and

4:02:4821049 be approved subject to section 284.11

4:02:53subsection 4 of the municipal act

4:02:58Thank you so much moved and seconded already by uh, alt and busitile. Is there anything on those bylaws anyone?

4:03:06Uh hearing and seeing none. I'll call the vote then on that

4:03:10is anyone against

4:03:12As I clean

4:03:14My desk that I just spilled all over it

4:03:19That is nobody so that passes

4:03:22um

4:03:24Hold on everyone. Thank you

4:03:26Um, that brings us to almost adjournment. It's the I think mayor's just quick quick mayor's announcement before we go

4:03:32I'm sorry. I don't mean to keep anyone longer, but I I just wanted to just stress something

4:03:38Uh to everybody that was already announced by the city yesterday

4:03:42And it's just it's just a little bit of a nudge

4:03:45for us to continue to

4:03:48Uh, really think canadian think canna by local support local

4:03:53Um in regards to the uncertainty that's really happening with uh,

4:03:57Our friend south of the border there

4:03:59So I just wanted to say um that if I feel like our um golf is is really kind of coming together

4:04:05Around that sort of team canada team ontario team gwealth perspective

4:04:09um, I just wanted to publicly say that I was really I I brought this up to counts. I'm sorry to staff

4:04:16week and a bit ago, I think and um

4:04:20Staff were already working on it and I just really want to acknowledge that staff were sort of already

4:04:25In the trenches on this issue. That's why they announced yesterday that landing page the resources that are available for people

4:04:33And I just wanted to confirm really publicly here that our executive team

4:04:38You know has indicated that they're already looking into

4:04:42Purchasing, procurement, all that kind of policy stuff as well

4:04:45If there's anything at all as they continue to do that deep dive

4:04:48They will bring something to council for us to look to to amend if it makes sense to do that

4:04:54um, however

4:04:55Really interesting stat that you know, I didn't know about in fact probably anyone knew about till it was asked

4:05:01Is already in our purchasing in the city of gwealth?

4:05:0598.5 of it is done in fork in canada

4:05:08With canadian vendors and and and such services

4:05:12And and of that 29 percent are done locally

4:05:16Those are good stats that we can kind of hang our hat on a little bit

4:05:20So I just wanted to just thank our staff because they were they were on this

4:05:26And they are on it and if there's anything that needs to come forward

4:05:29They're they're good. They're going to tap us on the shoulder and bring something forward and I trust that they will do that

4:05:34And for our community just keep keep supporting local and keep that front of mind as we were out and about on a daily basis

4:05:42Thanks for letting me just say that just just very quickly before I love to move to

4:05:46adjournment

4:05:47So with that who wants to who wants to help me with adjournment here today

4:05:51Boussatil and katon will do that for us. Is there anyone against adjournment?

4:05:55Nobody. All right. Have a great rest of the the night everyone. Thank you very much