Report titled Downtown Heights Study Proposed Official Plan Amendment Statutory Public Meeting Report from Infrastructure, Development and Environment dated February 11, 2025 be received.

57:36And present to you the draft official plan amendment

57:40Tonight so I will go through a number of of slides followed by Jonathan and then I will uh wrap up on on the next steps

58:05Since receiving council's direction to proceed with this study

58:08In december of last year

58:10We have been working, uh very well and collaboratively with other ongoing projects in the downtown and citywide particularly related

58:19to the housing work

58:21The ongoing downtown renewal work as well as the cons a heritage conservation district rick

58:27So members of this team sit on those project teams and vice versa

58:34I just want to reiterate that this study

58:37Allines with the strategic plan objective to improve housing supply

58:42And assists in meeting the city's housing pledge

58:48Tonight's meeting is the statutory meeting for the official plan amendment

58:52No decisions will be made tonight. We're expecting some some feedback

58:58And that the recommended official plan amendment or anticipating on bringing the recommended official plan amendment back to you for a decision

59:07in early spring

59:09We ask that interested members of the public

59:12Um, if they wish to recoup receive

59:15Other additional notices or information. There is of course, uh, you can register on on the have your say page for updated information

59:23As well as register with clerks if you wish to receive notices of any decisions

59:29and that

59:31Email of course is clerks at gulf dot c a or by calling

59:36509

59:38837

59:395603

59:44So a little bit of background on the downtown secondary plan

59:48Stacey did provide that in in december as well, but just to

59:52rehash a little bit the downtown secondary plan was approved in

59:57In 2012 this project

1:00:02Was really initiated on the basis of the minister's decision that was made in april of 2023 on

1:00:09the

1:00:10OPA 80 or the

1:00:11Are the city's op where the minister more or less issued a kind of a blanket

1:00:19Height decision of 23 stories

1:00:21Everywhere when the opportunity arose, of course for the minister to reconsider that and roll back that

1:00:28Council in december of 2023 said no, let's look look at a study done

1:00:34by guelph for guelph

1:00:37So the existing height permissions in the downtown

1:00:41Just for uh some memory

1:00:44Currently taller buildings are developed at the periphery of the downtown or in the lower lying areas

1:00:51The maximum building height is 18 stories

1:00:55Thereby more or less prohibiting construction

1:00:58Of any building to look higher

1:01:01Than the basilica of our lady maculita or the basilica

1:01:04There's five

1:01:07Five key view corridors that are protected that you can see on this

1:01:13map here

1:01:15And most buildings in the protected historic core

1:01:20Have a permitted range of heights between

1:01:23Three and and six stories. So that's generally speaking north of the tracks

1:01:27I'm going to turn it over to jonathan tinny from svn architects and planners who will give a bit of introduction to himself and

1:01:40the next steps

1:01:46Excuse me. Thanks, brenna

1:01:48In doing this work, we were engaged by staff and by the city late in 2024

1:01:54The aim of this work was really to move relatively quickly to bring together the

1:01:58draft policies that

1:02:00You folks are commenting on and providing us guidance on tonight

1:02:04We my firm svn was was chosen to do this work largely to a large extent because of work

1:02:09We're doing in other municipalities in southwestern ontario

1:02:12We're currently engaged with the city of london looking at tall building strategies for downtown london as well as their other

1:02:19mtsa areas

1:02:20Related to their brt

1:02:22As well as with the city of waterloo looking at some of the development

1:02:26Tall building development there along the eye on it within their mtsa areas

1:02:31You know, I say that to give a bit of context, but the important thing to understand here is when we think about this kind of work

1:02:37This kind of policy work

1:02:38There are some similarities amongst the various cities that we we work in in southwestern ontario. There's also a lot of very specific

1:02:46Local character that needs to be brought to the fore in this case

1:02:50The work we're doing work. We're doing in both waterloo in london is very much about

1:02:55Looking at the significant amounts of densities and heights that already exist within their official plans

1:02:59And providing them with guidance on how they can move

1:03:03That kind of development forward and get higher quality and better quality development

1:03:07Here in guelph that's not necessarily the case that we're starting with

1:03:11The existing downtown secondary plan provides a relatively modest amount of density in a relatively constrained

1:03:18number of locations within the downtown

1:03:21To the extent that

1:03:22It's difficult to for the the city to meet its its official plan goals for growth and development of the downtown within the existing framework

1:03:30We need to look at something akin to a rough doubling

1:03:33Of the number of people in jobs per hectare within the downtown core over the course of

1:03:38The time between now and 2051

1:03:40And so that's I think some of the context that we bring to to the work that we've been trying to do here

1:03:46So in terms of that work, um, you know, we tried to inform what we were doing

1:03:52I could say in a very very quick manner to bring this forward

1:03:56What we started with obviously was your existing policy framework, whether it's the downtown secondary secondary plan the directions from opa 80

1:04:04But also undertook an updated land assessment for the downtown where we could clearly

1:04:11Calculate existing people in jobs per hectare

1:04:15As well as overlaying that onto a three-dimensional model of the downtown that allowed us to

1:04:21grow

1:04:22various sites within the downtown

1:04:25Examine the impact of various heights not only on the physical layout and the physical growth and change in the downtown core

1:04:31But also in their ability to get to those those bigger numbers

1:04:36We also undertook a jurisdictional scan looking at municipalities like a kitchen or Cambridge London Hamilton

1:04:42Even as far afield as Ottawa and Kelowna

1:04:45Looking at not just some of the goals that they've looked to incorporate within their their downtown plans and height frameworks

1:04:51But also some of the built form characteristics and the ways they they get a particular character of tall buildings

1:04:57Not just how they get tall buildings

1:04:59Um, we've also undertaken a relatively rapid

1:05:04series of

1:05:06engagements

1:05:07with members of city staff a number of different community

1:05:11stakeholders as well as the

1:05:13Representatives from the local development community and aided by staff

1:05:17Undertaken a couple of different sessions with the public in order to hear the various inputs being provided therein and been able to sort of take

1:05:25All of that different input and balance it out in the approach that we've taken here

1:05:30So what is that approach?

1:05:32So based on

1:05:36The approach that we've taken is from a structural perspective similar to the one that exists within the downtown secondary plan

1:05:42So we've balanced two principles here one tries to locate taller buildings

1:05:47Around the edge of the downtown core

1:05:49limiting the impact on surrounding neighborhoods

1:05:52while also

1:05:54Trying to balance out the the sensitivities of built heritage the built heritage fabric within the

1:06:01The downtown

1:06:02What we've come up with is is essentially an urban amphitheater concept where

1:06:07Higher heights sort of hug the periphery of the downtown

1:06:12those heights, sorry with with lower

1:06:15Lower heights and densities within the core areas sort of centered on macdonald street

1:06:19Similar to what we said previously in terms of maximum heights

1:06:23The the increase in the overall maximum height peak for the downtown is relatively modest

1:06:27We're looking at max buildings of about 20 stories

1:06:31for the downtown

1:06:32However, the in the areas with the amount of area within the downtown that is at those height peaks or is at taller

1:06:39taller building scales whether 1816 stories and 14 stories has increased quite significantly from what was then the

1:06:46downtown secondary plan

1:06:52We've also made a couple of changes to the overall structure

1:06:56The approach to this the the height limits that we're looking at

1:07:00Really look to to to balance out some of the things that we heard

1:07:03So on one hand we heard from the development community that heights within the sort of 20 to 24 story range

1:07:08Represented a kind of market sweet spot for the types of projects that they were looking to market

1:07:13We tended towards the lower end of that because some of the feedback we heard from the general public

1:07:18favored favored

1:07:20Buildings that were tall but not too tall within within that scale the 20 story range still keeps us within a reference

1:07:28Height to the basilica and so we are not we are not providing

1:07:32Heights within this this proposed draft that would dwarf the the basilica

1:07:37And keeping within that as an existing principle

1:07:40We're also shifting one of the existing view corridors

1:07:43So there's an existing view corridor that extends from the basilica out to grand street

1:07:47It's been somewhat impacted over the years in terms of development and the growth of trees

1:07:52So we're proposing to shift that

1:07:55view corridor from

1:07:56ending at grand street down to extending draight down mackton l street, which is the

1:08:01sort of primary postcard view of the of the city of gulf to maintain that imperpatuity

1:08:07And i'll hand it back over to brena

1:08:19Thanks, jonathan

1:08:22I did want to note two things on the map

1:08:25And I can go I don't know if I can go back

1:08:33So I'll go I'll go back to the currently permitted building heights. You will note

1:08:39At the bottom there the special policy area overlay

1:08:43That is an area that we we haven't touched at all. So the existing permissions

1:08:49There are ones we are carrying through at this point in time

1:08:53I was having some email conversations today with the g rca to get an update as to where they are in their in their process

1:09:00My understanding is that the

1:09:03technical engineering work

1:09:05Is to be completed

1:09:07By the end of this year. That's hydraulic and hydrology and i'm not sure the difference but that is what

1:09:13What the terms are and then starting next year

1:09:18We'd be looking at

1:09:20Either in-house or looking at or hiring a consultant to review

1:09:24The updated flood plain mapping as well as doing a look at the existing policy regime

1:09:29That is in the special policy area

1:09:33If if that is going to be changing significantly particularly where the flood plain is then we would you know

1:09:39Do a part two of this of this study to see if heights can be increased in that area because that is a

1:09:45A particular area where we're currently there's yes the fast food restaurants and other areas. So

1:09:51Certainly an area that could

1:09:53benefit from

1:09:55Additional heights and densities as well as some vibrancy

1:10:02Just on the proposed building heights map. We we did note an error in the special policy area

1:10:10currently

1:10:11A site on wellington that you can see in orange here

1:10:15is proposed to be

1:10:17four to ten stories and the

1:10:22Previous map or the current map is is four to twelve. So we meant four to twelve

1:10:27it's just sort of a

1:10:29an error in in

1:10:31Translation to port attempt. So we're not we're not taking away anything at this point in time

1:10:36We're keeping it as as it is in in that area and that

1:10:40That number will be will be changed moving forward

1:10:46Just to go back

1:10:48We we looked at what are the key principles and jonathan touched on these when we're looking at at the downtown

1:10:55To help reach obviously our density targets and as jonathan noted that that is

1:11:00The primary driver to increase the housing supply in the downtown to meet those

1:11:05The target of 200 people in jobs of a hector by 2051

1:11:09So number one some of the some of the key principles we looked at of course

1:11:13Where build where people can live and work close transit?

1:11:18The downtown secondary plan area as the protective major transit station area for gualph

1:11:24The province has been very clear in in other areas as well as gualph that

1:11:30density and growth should occur in and around your your transit station

1:11:36Alongside of that of course

1:11:38And that's we've heard from from the public

1:11:41Is preserving the historical character

1:11:43While allowing for increased flexibility and you may recall from the december

1:11:4810th meeting there was a developer that said, you know heritage is a good thing

1:11:53We've seen many instances in in gualph where

1:11:57They've incorporated the heritage structure and and built upon it

1:12:02So we want to continue that moving forward

1:12:06Protect significant views

1:12:08As jonathan noted we are realigning

1:12:11One of the views from from taking or reallocating it from grange

1:12:15Down to down to macdenl

1:12:18A number of us stood at the top of grain street trying to

1:12:21Avoid traffic because you really can only see the basilica

1:12:26In the winter time in the middle of the road

1:12:29So as as even as a driver, I'd be wary of

1:12:33Stopping there because then you hit the hill

1:12:35Going straight down to so we thought it was it was likely best to preserve

1:12:40That view shed around

1:12:42Macdenl where it currently isn't now and that is jonathan said is the postcard view of

1:12:48We want to concentrate density

1:12:52On particularly on vacant and underutilized sites. So one of the

1:12:59Work through the housing

1:13:01Affordability strategy, of course is to find out where those sites are

1:13:06See what their status is and and focus on on those publicly owned and privately owned vacant and underutilized sites

1:13:15Provide a balance of course between sunlight and shadow

1:13:18We don't want the buildings to be

1:13:21Shadowing our public spaces our sidewalks

1:13:25Particularly, you know city hall for instance and and the rig and it's all it makes for

1:13:33A much better public space

1:13:35When there's not too much of either of those things not too much sunlight and not too much shade

1:13:40So trying to find that balance and then as well

1:13:44Ensuring a gradual transition from

1:13:48The taller to shorter buildings. So it's jonathan said the

1:13:52Amphitheater style

1:13:54On the outside so keeping to where we

1:13:57Currently are looking at

1:14:00Or currently exist at 150 Wellington for instance

1:14:04In and around that area where the topography is a little bit less

1:14:07And still maintaining the Basilica as a strong viewpoint

1:14:12There's a couple other notes in the official plan amendment that I'll briefly go over. We are proposing to change

1:14:19the heights of

1:14:21mid-rise

1:14:23buildings from

1:14:25four to six to four to 11 stories and then in

1:14:29Down currently the high rise building form is anything above six stories and we're proposing

1:14:35To change that from

1:14:3712 stories and above

1:14:40The proposed official plan amendment also recognizes

1:14:47That a community planning permit system is proposed for downtown

1:14:51And will consider the potential for additional heights

1:14:54Beyond the 20 stories that work is currently

1:14:59Underway, we are starting to you saw me last time talk about the community planning permit system for stone road members

1:15:06We're starting in on the work on developing

1:15:09The financial feasibility for the similar work in in the downtown to see what the

1:15:14Tolerance or the threshold is for additional heights to get to more affordable housing units also

1:15:20In the downtown

1:15:22And we propose to bring that work back to you later this year

1:15:26So to date as we stated in December

1:15:29We've held the number of engagements prior to the December date a number of pop-ups for the

1:15:46The at the Guelph farmers market and and worked with the affordable housing strategy and other projects related to housing to bring

1:15:54The downtown heights study to view

1:15:58We held a number of focus group meetings with the

1:16:02The downtown Guelph business association and the Chamber of Commerce

1:16:08At that point in December we had a number of meeting with with the with developer groups

1:16:12Since that time and since the release of the of the draft OPA. We've also had

1:16:18Additional meetings with with a number of developers and developers and more to continue our

1:16:25Consulting team has also been involved with those. We are looking

1:16:29To meet with the planning advisory committee next week and last Thursday

1:16:33We did have a meeting with heritage Guelph and they didn't raise any significant concerns at this point

1:16:39In time

1:16:41So on that on the heritage point we are working as I said very closely with

1:16:47The heritage planning staff team on the development of the heritage conservation district

1:16:51We don't want to run into any issues whether maybe maybe conflict. We want to preserve

1:16:56The historical

1:16:58Character in nature of the downtown at the same time while providing some flexibility

1:17:04For taller buildings where they where they can exist

1:17:07So here we are today

1:17:15Last week we did have a very well attended open house just over in the in the marg McKinnon room

1:17:21There are a number of open house boards that are posted on the have your say

1:17:25Page with more information more pictures

1:17:30Tonight we're bringing forward the draft

1:17:32Amendment for for some feedback from yourselves and for the public

1:17:37We're looking to release the other component of this

1:17:39We're looking to release the other component of this study, which is the draft

1:17:44Built form standards for tall buildings that will cover olive guelph

1:17:49A little bit of a refresh on the urban design guidelines for downtown plus looking at the at the broader picture currently

1:17:56um, the rest of guelph you could say has uh

1:18:00Urban design guidelines for for townhouses and mid-rise buildings, but not for the the higher rise buildings

1:18:06So we'll be looking at developing those standards those were we're looking to release those in early march

1:18:13And it's anticipated as I said earlier that we're looking to bring this amendment back

1:18:18for recommendation

1:18:20in

1:18:21earlier this year

1:18:23Right now the date is anticipated to be april 8th

1:18:29and with that

1:18:31Look forward to receiving your feedback and answering any questions

1:18:38Uh, thank you both for for your presentation walking us through that

1:18:42And uh, as I mentioned earlier, we have a few delegations. So we'll just we'll go to those right away

1:18:47Okay, and then we'll we'll bring it back to us for any of our our feedback

1:18:51and our questions that we have

1:18:54We have uh, it looks like uh one two three four that have signed up here for us

1:18:59Now, please forgive me if i'm not hitting your your your your names correctly

1:19:04Please forgive me in advance, but first up is uh, is christian

1:19:09Slamanitas. I'm gonna. Hope hopefully i'm saying that right

1:19:12Are you here?

1:19:15Christian, I think by video right?

1:19:22Hi, uh christian. It's uh, mayor guthrie. Uh, can you unmute just to give your audio a try for us?

1:19:29For me

1:19:31um

1:19:33It's a little muffled

1:19:34No, you're good. You're totally good

1:19:37Did I say your last name right? Yes, it's uh close. It's simonitas. So very close. That's why I was good to do second time around so

1:19:46Look, I appreciate you being here. We appreciate you being here. Um

1:19:50Just bear with me for one second as I go to the clerks for one moment

1:19:56Uh, and yeah, so for all the delegations, uh today

1:20:00You have up to 10 minutes if you need it, okay

1:20:03If you take the whole 10 minutes, that's totally fine if you want to go a little less that's totally fine

1:20:09But you will hear a chime or a heads up ring at the nine minutes and 30 second mark

1:20:16Which just gives you that 30 second heads up

1:20:19The clerks will turn your microphone off at the 10 minute mark

1:20:22So try not to get there try to get it all done, uh in under the limit, uh that we've provided

1:20:28So christian whenever you're ready your time will start. Okay, so go right ahead

1:20:33Perfect. Thank you very much. So good evening everyone. Uh, my name is christian simonitas

1:20:38I'm a senior planner with up consulting uh here on behalf of our client skyline

1:20:43Who are the owners of the subject lands identified as 26 to 40 cardin street and 27 to 39 macden l street

1:20:50At first, I like to say thank you for providing the opportunity to speak today on this project

1:20:54We certainly appreciate the overall intent of this initiative to increase height and density within the city's downtown

1:21:00However, I will be presenting some of my comments and recommendations for uh the city to consider moving forward. So next slide, please

1:21:12Uh, yeah, so as previously noted the subject lands are noted on the slide in front of you. Uh, they are

1:21:18Right across from city hall and market square

1:21:21There's an existing two-story commercial building on the subject lands with no existing cultural heritage attributes

1:21:27I would also like to note that the lands are subject to an ongoing official plan and zoning bylaw amendment application

1:21:33That was submitted by our firm prior to the uh, this downtown height study that was initiated

1:21:39So following the initiation of the study, uh, our client opted to pause these applications and participate in the study

1:21:45Which is why i'm here today

1:21:47And to provide to provide some additional context, uh, this opa and zba application that's been paused

1:21:54Contemplates a 14 story mixed use development

1:21:57consisting of 120 dwelling units and approximately 600 square meters of commercial space

1:22:03Next slide, please

1:22:06Yeah, so this slide here just provides an aerial image of the subject lands just to provide some additional context again

1:22:11Just right across from city hall and market square at fronts both macdenl and cardin street

1:22:17Next slide

1:22:20So, um as per the current schedule d uh shown on the left hand side the subject property, uh currently permits a maximum building height of six stories

1:22:29As per the proposed draft schedule d, uh, that was released by city staff shown on the right hand side

1:22:35There is no proposed change to the permitted height on the subject lands and it would remain capped at six stories

1:22:41In addition to both the the release of schedule d and the draft official plan by city staff

1:22:47I would also just like to note that um

1:22:50We there were no detailed background study. Um, that was included on the website as well as

1:22:55Rational for the changes in terms of the height that was contemplated through the proposed opa

1:23:00In in reading a draft opa without this information would be similar to reviewing say a development application with no supporting plan studies report a report. So

1:23:11You know respectfully we we would ask that city staff certainly

1:23:15Provide such

1:23:17background detail and and or rationale with respect to the

1:23:20proposed changes not only for the subject lands, but

1:23:23The initiative as a whole. Um, so understanding that these recommended

1:23:27Recommended changes were arrived. Um, are as fundamental to ensure that you know, a transparent and evident evidence based approach

1:23:34Uh to policymaking is conducted. So next slide, please

1:23:39So based on our review of the subject lands and surrounding area as well as the supporting reports and or studies that were submitted as part of that

1:23:45Now paused opa and zedbia application on the lands

1:23:49We are recommending that the proposed designation permit

1:23:52Four to 16 stories on the subject lands as well as the majority of the lands between carden street and cork street

1:23:58The image shown on your screen outlines the proposed change. Uh, and our clients lands are outlined

1:24:03in in red there, um

1:24:06It's the bottom there

1:24:08Next slide, please

1:24:10Now in order to integrate such taller buildings between four to 16 stories while also being sympathetic to the existing character of the downtown

1:24:17There are a number of design elements that can be implemented and are required throughout the approval process such as

1:24:23Including step backs above the podium to maintain the historic street wall

1:24:27The adaptive reuse of heritage buildings and facades to maintain the existing character of the downtown

1:24:32Using building materials that are reflective of and complementary to the existing conditions, which may include the use of brick or stone

1:24:39Uh, and lastly providing for active uses such as commercial or retail uses at the street level to support a lively downtown

1:24:46Next slide, please

1:24:48In order to visualize these design elements, uh, the following image shows a rendering of the proposed 14 story mix use development

1:24:55That was submitted as part of that

1:24:56Uh paused opa zedbia application on the subject lands

1:25:00So as you can see there's a three-story podium with building materials reflective of the surrounding historic facades

1:25:06Maintains that existing street wall while also providing for a tower that is stepped back and achieves additional height and density within the downtown

1:25:14Next slide, please

1:25:17Also, and this was noted by city staff and we certainly could

1:25:20Concur that we understand that the view

1:25:23Corridors from the basilica to the west are very important factor for development in the downtown

1:25:28And this image here truly demonstrates that development along mcdonnell can still protect the primary view and or corridor

1:25:35Will also achieving increased heights beyond what's proposed, you know, six stories and and as you can see we're proposing 14

1:25:42So with the use of step backs away from mcdonnell and other design elements that I previously noted

1:25:47You can see the view of the basilica is completely protected and unobstructed for such by such development

1:25:53Next slide, please

1:25:56So as the downtown study continues, uh, it's essential to consider how other mid-sized communities in the greater golden horseshoe

1:26:03Have approached the subject. So several mid-sized communities such as waterloo, kitchen or london

1:26:08Have conducted height reviews and this was also noted by

1:26:11Staff within the last couple of couple of years

1:26:13Resulting in significant changes to their local planning framework. So as you can see, these are some examples within

1:26:20development within mtsas in waterloo that have provided a balance between heritage conservation

1:26:26Notably the image on your left there

1:26:29Good urban design principles and need for increased height and densities within these mtsas

1:26:34Next slide, please

1:26:36The city of kitchens another example, uh, they recently undertook their growing together opi and zedby initiative, uh, which

1:26:42Considered the appropriate built form for its within its mtsas

1:26:46This initiative introduced a range of new land use designations and zones that have paid paved the way for

1:26:52extensive intensification in the city's most walkable

1:26:55neighborhoods as well as recognizing its downtown and mtsas that are truly the correct location for the majority of growth

1:27:03Next slide, please

1:27:05Again similar example, um, city of kinkston, uh

1:27:10Another example of how increased height and densities can be achieved in similar mid-sized cities

1:27:15Next slide

1:27:17And then another example as well. So st. Catharines is one that I've noted. So next slide

1:27:24Now to conclude my presentation

1:27:26Uh, I believe that this is certainly an excellent opportunity for the city to really capitalize on achieving smart growth within the downtown area

1:27:32Where increased height and or density belongs close to public transit

1:27:37Certainly not all sites can or should accommodate high density buildings due to heritage elements lot size frontage, etc

1:27:43However, as I noted throughout my uh previous slides, they're design elements that can be incorporated and or required throughout the approvals process to achieve such balance

1:27:53Again, we would ask that the city staff or city rather consider increasing the high permission of the subject lands and surrounding areas

1:28:00for the four to 16

1:28:02uh story designation in order to meet the minimum density requirement of 200

1:28:07People and or and jobs per hectare as set out by the province within mtsas

1:28:12As this project continues, we would also ask that the city provide more detailed background information and reporting on how the current draft

1:28:19Schedule D and the opa was was developed to this point and certainly moving forward. So

1:28:25With that, I'd like to conclude my presentation and thank you all again for this opportunity to speak tonight and happy to answer any questions. Thank you

1:28:34Thank you christian for your presentation. Is there any follow-up to this delegation anybody?

1:28:40Okay, I just have one question then

1:28:43christian did you happen to

1:28:46knock on the doors to the

1:28:49owners of the buildings to the right and to the left and to across the street

1:28:53to see if there was any

1:28:56Uh

1:28:57Coalition I guess of all the owners in that area that you've outlined in your map that also wanted the same height

1:29:06Through the marionette, that's great question. So um, no, we have not specifically reached out to those owners within those two blocks

1:29:12between carden and cork, but I will note that based on that

1:29:17Rendering and or image that I provided on one of my previous slides

1:29:20You can see that that outdoor and that view shed along mcdonnell street

1:29:26would certainly be protected with that increased height as shown on the

1:29:31East side where our property is on on mcdonnell

1:29:35It was unobstructed and then if you were to mirror that or reflect that on the other block

1:29:40On the on the west side of mcdonnell, it would

1:29:44Certainly be unobstructed again based on that mirroring if you will of of that rendering

1:29:51Yeah, thank you. I agree with that. Thank you

1:29:53Um, okay, there's no further questions. I appreciate you you answering me on that

1:29:58Have a have a great rest of the day and thank you for your time

1:30:02very much

1:30:05All right next up is uh bruce uh, elselston

1:30:09Is here I think in person. Yeah bruce is coming down

1:30:13Did I say your last name right bruce?

1:30:16okay

1:30:17I'm two for two. We're not making it easy on you. That's okay. What is it? Iselstein?

1:30:22Okay, we'll go with that since it's your name. You know what you're saying. So thank you very much. I apologize for that

1:30:27Uh bruce, you heard me say about the no more than 10 minutes, right?

1:30:31So uh, you're good to go and you can start whenever you're ready

1:30:37So good evening and thank you for allowing me to speak here tonight

1:30:43My name is bruce iselstein and I'm here on behalf of the residents living on edwin street

1:30:51I am not here to speak to the entire plan amendment, but rather

1:30:55To a small neighborhood that will be affected by it

1:30:59But as brenda mckinnon pointed out earlier

1:31:03The fact that a vacant lot sits at the end of our street may indicate

1:31:07The probability that we are affected

1:31:10In perhaps a greater way than some other areas of the plan

1:31:16I grew up in strafford, ontario and attended carleton university in ottawa where I studied economics

1:31:23I'm a single father of two school age children a youth sports coach and a small business owner

1:31:30Throughout my life. I've lived in 16 cities

1:31:34in four countries

1:31:35But for the last 14 years I've lived here in guelph

1:31:40I only mention these things because I believe that I represent not only a proud guelph resident

1:31:46But one who's experienced life in many other cities and still chosen guelph as a place to settle to raise my children

1:31:54and to call home

1:31:56Edwin street sits on the northwestern side of the secondary plan of the proposed

1:32:04plan amendment closest to the corner of london and walwich

1:32:09At the open house for this proposed plan amendment on the 4th of february

1:32:15It was made clear that london and walwich

1:32:18would be problematic for entry and exit from anything being built on that vacant lot

1:32:25And on that I think we can all agree

1:32:30But to go from there to the idea of using edwin street to solve that issue

1:32:36lacks in our opinion any real world logic

1:32:41Let's start with the parking

1:32:43despite on street parking

1:32:45Which edwin street has all spots are generally occupied during the day due to our proximity to downtown

1:32:53and at night due to

1:32:55Many area homes that are without sufficient driveway space or in many cases any driveway at all

1:33:03In addition overflow from the funeral home at the end of our street always spills down edwin street filling any remaining spots

1:33:12daytime

1:33:13evening

1:33:14weekdays and weekends

1:33:17Now on edwin edwin street there are 18 single family homes. We are one block long

1:33:24Three of those homes do not have a driveway

1:33:28Those 15 families with a driveway on 24 cars

1:33:32Leaving nine cars that need to park on the 17 spots available on our street

1:33:39Add to that the four cars belonging to the three families that don't have driveways and you've got 13 cars

1:33:45that need to park in those 17 spots

1:33:50That number represents almost the full number

1:33:54Of street spots available and that's in the summertime

1:33:58when you're not losing spots due to snow

1:34:02if

1:34:04An eight-story building which is what is proposed under the plan amendment was to be erected

1:34:10And we assume that the ground level was for businesses and the upper seven floors contained

1:34:15Let's say four to six residences per floor

1:34:19We can conservatively estimate estimate that approximately 40 vehicles

1:34:24May require thoroughfare for that building at any one time

1:34:28And that is not to mention any deliveries or visitors to those businesses or residents

1:34:34Where will those vehicles park?

1:34:37Let's move on to passage down the street

1:34:41Edwin street is a typical is typical to many of the original downtown streets in that it's quite narrow at the best of times

1:34:49And that's amplified during the winter months as I mentioned mentioned earlier

1:34:54It is a daily occurrence

1:34:57That cars cannot pass during garbage and recycling pickup

1:35:01Both of my children will attest that they relate for school today for exactly that reason

1:35:07Despite

1:35:08on-street parking deliveries and trades people

1:35:12Often need to block the road for extended periods of time because there's simply nowhere else to park

1:35:20We also need to talk about safety

1:35:23Including the 12 school aged children and for grandchildren that regularly receive care from their Edwin street grandparent

1:35:31There are 16 children that either live on or spend a great deal of time on Edwin street

1:35:38And with its close proximity to Woolwich in London Edwin street is a often used bypass to people in curry

1:35:47So that they can get past that London and Woolwich intersection

1:35:51As a 14 year resident of Edwin street, I can tell you firsthand that I've witnessed far too many close calls

1:36:01And tripling the number of cars

1:36:05That use Edwin street is almost guaranteed

1:36:09To end with something that none of us want to see

1:36:13Regardless of where you call home

1:36:17Edwin street also has an enviable history and heritage

1:36:21It is widely seen as a desirable street not only for its character and its

1:36:26location close close proximity to parks in downtown

1:36:31But for its annual street parties

1:36:34It's beautifully printed boulevards and its sense of community

1:36:40Three of our current residents

1:36:42Are currently living in homes that they were raised in

1:36:47And eventually purchased from their parents for exactly that reason

1:36:53We've learned and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

1:36:56That the consultancy studying the proposed changes contains a grand total of zero Guelph residents

1:37:05How could those people possibly be tasked

1:37:09With developing a true understanding of the impact that changed like this would have on the people the real people

1:37:16Who will be affected

1:37:19And that brings me to the concept of real world study

1:37:22At the open house, we also learned

1:37:26That much if not all of the assessment has been performed via satellite imagery

1:37:31How can a planner understand the implications of a potential eight story building based on satellite views without having walked the site or without

1:37:39Speaking to its local business owners and its residents

1:37:43Just this morning I had a conversation over breakfast with my two children

1:37:46About the difference between science and theoretical science

1:37:50The gist of that conversation was that as fascinating as study study done in a lab or on a computer is

1:38:00Whenever possible, we need to get our hands dirty

1:38:03Even if it's inconvenient because there will always be unknowns that we couldn't have foreseen

1:38:09Because they just weren't showing on google

1:38:14An interesting discussion point that I'd be remiss to not mention

1:38:19Is that of driverless or car free community building versus the more traditional vehicle dense cities

1:38:28We cannot claim that parking passage and safety won't be an issue

1:38:34But in the very next breath admit that entry and exit off of Woolwich in london would be problematic

1:38:42Recognizing that the issue would be problematic

1:38:45And thereby commandeering a quiet side street like edwin

1:38:50Negates the ability to then claim that increased traffic won't be a problem

1:38:58So in closing

1:39:00Our hope is that the input we've provided today is able to shed some light on the potential

1:39:08Impact this planning amendment could have on our little piece of golf

1:39:13Planning for densification is not a question

1:39:17But as a city if we move forward

1:39:20With building something in an effort to grow

1:39:24While ignoring the things that made us a desirable city in the first place

1:39:31If we blanket entire areas with a one-size-fits-all solution

1:39:37We risk disrupting the foundations on which we were built

1:39:41And with that I'll finish off great. Thank you, Bruce

1:39:46Thank you, Bruce. Thank you for coming to us and expressing that with your presentation

1:39:51Is there any follow-up for Bruce today from anyone?

1:39:54Good takeaway

1:39:56It is a good takeaway. Thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate your perspective

1:40:01I think I used to be a neighbor over is charles street beside you. Yes. I used to have a place on there

1:40:07Yeah, so I know the area well

1:40:10Okay, thank you. Uh, let's see who's end up next mitch baker from uh, vive uh, developments is here

1:40:20Mitch you're on your way down. So thank you for joining us

1:40:31Welcome and whenever you're ready. Okay. I don't think I messed up your last name

1:40:36Baker no, I got an easier name for you. That's good. All right over to you

1:40:40Through you mr. Mayor. Uh, good afternoon

1:40:43Um, I'm mitch baker. I'm a planner with up consulting

1:40:48On behalf of our client vive developments

1:40:50Uh here here in response to the downtown height study

1:40:54You did just see my my colleague christian online as well. So these slides might look uh somewhat similar

1:41:09So our our client vive developments owns the property located at 36 in to 50 wellington street

1:41:16It's in that eastern portion of the downtown

1:41:20Of the downtown and it was one of the properties that uh that staff has

1:41:25indicated was

1:41:27Designated to have a lower density

1:41:29Uh, this currently contains two fast food restaurants with extensive surface parking

1:41:35Uh, and without any height study or background information being provided to date

1:41:40It's it's been difficult to to rationalize or justify why why some properties have been chosen for an increased height

1:41:47Just for some general site context around here

1:41:51Uh, it's generally lower lower density commercial retail uses often with drive-thrus and

1:41:56And low and parking lots both city owned and privately owned

1:42:01Uh, low rise commercial strip malls, uh, and and there's also the fire station police station the Ontario court of justice building

1:42:08Uh, just to name a few of the uses in this area

1:42:14So our client has has prepared a preliminary development vision just for for this property

1:42:18Right now it stands at 29 story mixed use building with the ground floor commercial

1:42:23Uh, there's a four story podium with with parking and a 10 story mid-rise section to help ease the building's transition to adjacent properties

1:42:31It's also located on a major arterial roadway, uh, which is generally meant to accommodate this additional traffic volume

1:42:38And generally has excess uh servicing capacity as well

1:42:44So this is this is schedule D

1:42:47Which is proposed to be amended as part of the official plan amendment as a result of the of the downtown height study

1:42:55Uh, you'll notice, uh, my client's property highlighted in green

1:42:59There which is currently permitted for four to 12 stories and as corrected by staff

1:43:04It has been reduced to four to 10 stories, but it seems to remain as four to 12 stories

1:43:10um

1:43:11Generally, it does appear like there's significant density

1:43:14And building heights being permitted as shown on the right hand side

1:43:19So I have uh,

1:43:21Overlaid it with a aerial photograph just to better give some site site context to some of these properties that that are being

1:43:28That have increased height permissions. Uh, so those two right in the middle with the red ones

1:43:33That's a city owned parking lot and the Ontario court of justice building

1:43:38Permitted for the greatest density in in the this area of the downtown

1:43:41And then just north of that is the police station and north of that is the

1:43:45Guelph Armory both permitted for four to 16 stories

1:43:49And then as you travel south down windom street, there's there's two blocks of

1:43:53Four to 18 stories. One is a previous development proposal and the other is the is the fire station

1:43:59Uh, then as you travel north northwest on wellington, uh, you'll pass by

1:44:06Several blocks of three to six stories, which is uh, very uncommon for a downtown core and a major transit station area

1:44:14To have have such restrictive

1:44:16Heights as you continue northeast, uh, you'll notice a large block of four to 18 stories

1:44:22And that's another city owned parking lot and a high dense an existing high density

1:44:28Uh development

1:44:32And again without any any background information, it's it's difficult to just justify why some of these properties were chosen to

1:44:39To have an increased density

1:44:41When development to redevelopment is unlikely to be seen on many of these properties

1:44:45And it's a common issue for for a lot of mid-sized cities

1:44:49As you'll you'll see in waterloo. Here's here's multiple 20 plus story buildings

1:44:54Uh, Kitchener who who is consistently

1:44:57Approving 40 to 50 story plus buildings. Uh while while respecting and maintaining that existing built form of the city

1:45:06Kingstand, which is an old has a lot of heritage in that city has seen a lot of new development

1:45:11And st. Catharines is an old city itself, which has has seen a lot of new high-rise development as of late

1:45:19So our recommendations is to is to increase the the density and the height permissions to four to 35 stories

1:45:26This is largely consistent with a lot of the mid-sized cities around

1:45:31Some of some of which I just I just mentioned

1:45:34This is a major transit station area and it will

1:45:38Follow the the provincial direction

1:45:40As mentioned by by staff earlier

1:45:43Generally doubling the density is needed to meet the targets and this this will certainly

1:45:48Help contribute to those housing targets as well

1:45:51Uh, so this area of the downtown is generally low lying and respects a lot of the sight lines that that are

1:45:58Aren't generally a concern in this area of the downtown

1:46:02Uh, it will help facilitate development on properties that are ready to be redeveloped by developers

1:46:09Uh, also located on major arterials

1:46:11Um, such as gordon street and windom street are our major arterials, uh that that head straight to the university of gulf

1:46:18Uh, so this really provides a unique opportunity, uh to to increase density and and provide those that

1:46:26Necessary housing to meet those targets in this area

1:46:30Uh, this would encourage density and walkability throughout the downtown

1:46:33And really help help improve the connectivity of the downtown area that both west and east of the tracks

1:46:41then

1:46:42Lastly is strategically permitting greater height in this area really facilitates a balance between

1:46:48The historic and new and modern developments that that's seen west of the tracks

1:46:54And again, this really provides a unique opportunity to create a vibrant new

1:46:59mixed use walkable

1:47:01downtown area for the city of gulf

1:47:04and its residents

1:47:08Both myself and my client are available for any questions. Thank you

1:47:14Thank you, mitch for your presentation as well for coming down and giving us that

1:47:19Any questions for this delegate at this time? Oh, uh, counselor caller, please

1:47:27Uh, thank you and through your worship to the delegate

1:47:30Um, just wanted to follow up on something you said you said that out there have been no no reports of justification

1:47:37What would you have expected to see as proper justification for the heights that have been presented?

1:47:45through your mr. Mayor um

1:47:48The background study or information would would have been helpful instead of just seeing the the proposed draft amendment

1:47:54Some of the the reasoning and rationale behind why why some properties and blocks were chosen for increased height permissions

1:48:00Just just to provide some additional context would would have been helpful

1:48:04Okay, okay, and under the proposal that you have shown

1:48:07To the four to twenty stories on the sides and the four to what was it 30 35 in the middle

1:48:14um

1:48:15Have you have you

1:48:17Has your team looked at that and seen what the massing would mean for the city because it seems like that would be a big mass of

1:48:25of

1:48:26Of of cement uh looking at it from the river. Is that not right?

1:48:34Through you mr. Mayor, um, it would it would be dependent on on where you would be looking at

1:48:39We have done done some initial massing on our original development proposal

1:48:44However, we haven't done done any massing for the city-wide as I presume that's part of the height study

1:48:50Okay, no, thank you for highlighting that I appreciate it. That's it for me. Thank you worship

1:48:55Thanks counselor. I think our work just has a did you know you're good? Okay, that's it for

1:49:01For you, uh, mitch. Thank you very much for coming and presenting appreciate it

1:49:05And finally we have uh tim smith from the wood development group coming forward

1:49:10Come on down tim

1:49:15They get easier baker to smith. I shouldn't be able to mess those up. So

1:49:19Uh, tim, thank you very much for coming and uh, I'll turn it over to you start whenever you're ready

1:49:25All right. Thank you very much for this opportunity. Mr. Mayor and members of council

1:49:29My name is tim smith. I'm a principal with urban strategies of planning an urban design firm

1:49:35I'm here today as the planning and urban design consultant for wood development group who own

1:49:40Plant what the site we're calling plant number two in the ward community which you see outlined in red on this slide

1:49:47Um, I'm also someone who's assisted the city

1:49:50Over many years with various planning initiatives. In fact, including the secondary plan

1:49:57Ian pannabaker sitting behind me the vice president of development at wood development group and myself

1:50:03Actually led the preparation of the secondary plan beginning about 15 years ago

1:50:08Ultimately approved about a decade ago. It's a plan that has served you well

1:50:13For sure over the last 10 years you've taken great strides and

1:50:16improving and bringing people downtown

1:50:19But we will be the first ones to agree that it's time to update the plan and particularly with respect to heights and density

1:50:25So we very much support this initiative. It's obviously moving very quickly

1:50:29Um, but it's needed. It's needed to unlock

1:50:33Some of these many challenging sites downtown particularly south of the tracks to simply get more residential growth

1:50:39Happening and continue the ongoing revitalization of downtown

1:50:44City staff and the consultant team have done really good work so far in a very short amount of time

1:50:49As you've heard they recognize as the need to unlock some of these more challenging sites to protect the views of the church of our lady

1:50:58To just recognize there are other places for taller buildings up to maybe 20 stories or more

1:51:04That will have a significant impact in terms of bringing population downtown at the same time

1:51:10Protecting that really valued character of both neighborhoods and the core the historic core of downtown

1:51:17Excellent work has been done in the short amount of time

1:51:20One of my key messages I think to you today is really to take more time to get the study right

1:51:25It's on the right track, but my feeling is there's some refinement to do

1:51:29There's more of a rationale as you've heard that needs to be provided for the ultimate recommendations

1:51:35I have a few general comments before speaking specifically about the plant number two site

1:51:40I do feel there needs to be more engagement

1:51:42There's been good engagement with landowners in the community so far

1:51:45But there needs to be more to get the plant the recommendations right

1:51:49To make sure that what's being put forward in terms of future height limits

1:51:53Will have that intended effect of unlocking sites making redevelopment viable

1:51:58I also feel that you need to be bolder

1:52:01We were bold 10 15 years ago taking that historic six-story limit downtown and lifting it up on many sites to 10 12 18 stories

1:52:10You've seen the impact. You've also seen not enough development

1:52:14Particularly south of the tracks this side of the speed river in the word community. Certainly there's been steady and positive change

1:52:22Um, in my opinion, you need to go well above 20 stories on some of those strategic sites where there is that opportunity

1:52:29For the additional density where you will not be blocking views to the church where you will not dwarf the basilica either

1:52:36given the distance from it

1:52:38so

1:52:40The impacts of this additional height will be significant in terms of achieving that density target getting more residential population

1:52:48But at the same time will protect that valued character of downtown

1:52:52We think you should be flexible as well

1:52:55Um, we understand the intention is through future community planning permit bylaw

1:53:00There'll be opportunities for maybe additional height over what's being put in the opa

1:53:04In my opinion that really needs to be acknowledged in the document

1:53:07Otherwise you might run into legal issues at the end of the day

1:53:10If that cpps bylaw is not in conformity with the official plan and quite frankly

1:53:15You just need some flexibility so that future site specific studies

1:53:20Um have the opportunity to look at additional height

1:53:23We also think generally there's been a very prescriptive approach taken with some sites

1:53:28That's appropriate in establishing height limits, but generally a more simplest simple approach to that scheduled de-height plan

1:53:35I think would serve you well and and future landowners

1:53:39Now my views

1:53:41Today are coming from someone who's worked in many mid-sized downtowns across

1:53:45uh, Canada

1:53:47and recognizing more and more are looking at

1:53:51Tall buildings you've seen some examples from southern Ontario. It's true elsewhere. We're not suggesting

1:53:56I'm not suggesting anyway

1:53:57You might go to the extremes that some others are suggesting

1:54:00But you need to be bolder

1:54:03If I can talk a little bit about

1:54:05The plant number two site

1:54:07We've been spending close to three years now working with development group to really

1:54:12Understand the constraints of the site. There are many

1:54:15It's a brownfield site. It has a very significant

1:54:18Historic building that we want to preserve on it. It has major city infrastructure that needs to be realigned

1:54:24It has a rail corridor running right through the middle of it. We'll need to set back from that

1:54:28There are a number of public benefits. We want to bring with development

1:54:32And at the end of the day that's going to require a certain quantity of development

1:54:36To pay for all those benefits and all those uh needed

1:54:40The cleanup the infrastructure, etc

1:54:43When we were given that kind of density it needed to be achieved here to make this project viable

1:54:47Our team then had to look at how can we mass the site?

1:54:51Uh to have an appropriate relationship to the ward community at the same time to create that

1:54:58Bring that density that the site needs and downtown needs

1:55:02We ended up with a concept and i'll just go to the next slide

1:55:07I guess I can't that you see illustrated here and you might some of you might have already heard about this development

1:55:14We took it to the public back in in november if you haven't heard about it

1:55:17We certainly will be sharing more with you in the coming months

1:55:20But our concept plan here you see on the left is for a mix of buildings ranging in height

1:55:25From three and six stories close to the community up to 24 stories at the heart of the community

1:55:31We felt this was the right built form approach

1:55:35To ensure that we had minimal adverse impacts on the neighborhood could bring forward this

1:55:40Many public benefits almost half the site will be in fact be public realm

1:55:44Completely opening up the site to the community with a number of new open spaces

1:55:49So we varied heights to actually achieve that density and have an appropriate

1:55:54To the community you get a sense of that in the rendering on the right here to show how we feel this

1:56:00Concept would fit within the community now. We took this to the community back in november

1:56:05We were very pleasantly surprised there wasn't an outcry over some of the heights we were proposing particularly at 24 stories

1:56:12We had actually a great deal of support for the concept and an eagerness to see it move forward

1:56:18And we hope that will be the case the next step for us to take it is to prepare an urban design master plan

1:56:24Um, and then take that back to the community to make sure we get some of the details of the plan

1:56:30Right before we actually submit an application. We hope later this year

1:56:34Um, we'll take I'm happy to take questions about this

1:56:37but I just really wanted to share the story with you because it does inform

1:56:40our views on the height study as you can imagine we are looking specifically for

1:56:48adjustments potentially to the recommended height limits in schedule d to

1:56:52More closely aligned with the concept as we have it to here

1:56:58You can see in this illustration. We're looking for a more flexibility in the center of the site to go up to 24 stories

1:57:04We're not looking to do more than one 24 story building

1:57:07But so maybe some flexibility about its precise location

1:57:11And then other than that we're really not looking for any changes if anything

1:57:15We're looking to a lower height limit at the very southern edge of the site from 16 stories to 12 stories again for that appropriate transition

1:57:22To the neighborhood no proposed changes north of the tracks

1:57:27In terms of our other, uh, request we would ask that the

1:57:32study team also look at

1:57:35clarifying that in fact lower than the minimum heights being

1:57:39Established here can be would be appropriate for podiums of buildings for the edges of those podiums

1:57:45For example, if we want to put three story townhouses at the edge of a podium that that would not

1:57:51Be an issue in terms of the minimum heights

1:57:55we also

1:57:56Would look for you in this process to actually remove the remaining density limits that apply downtown

1:58:03It's actually only two sites where a minimum a maximum density applies

1:58:08The metalwork site which of course is mostly developed now

1:58:12And our site and frankly this is an outdated tool for controlling density now that you have

1:58:18Built form controls not just height limits, but other built form controls in the secondary plan

1:58:23In your built form standards your guidelines

1:58:25Those are the tools that are most effective in a downtown like yours for controlling density

1:58:32So we would ask that you take this opportunity to remove those limits

1:58:35And allow the heights that are being proposed and maybe the additional heights that we're proposing here to actually be achieved

1:58:42Otherwise they they simply would not

1:58:44So with that i'll wrap up, but thank you for the opportunity. I would say that you know through the engagement we've had

1:58:50I feel the time is right that your community is is now embracing taller buildings

1:58:55And recognizing that the additional housing that will bring the population downtown

1:58:59Will be overwhelm any concerns about impacts from those tall buildings. Thank you

1:59:06Thank you very much tim appreciate it

1:59:09I've got one question from counselor or orc, please

1:59:13Thank you, merga 33 to mr smith just a really candid question

1:59:19Okay, because your your site clearly shows lots of community benefits lots of park space lots of public realm

1:59:26So won't the community sorry won't the community permit plan

1:59:31Allow for additional height given that trade-off

1:59:36So

1:59:37In terms of being site specific

1:59:40Won't the community permit plan address your concern with respect to height because you you're proving that there's already community benefit

1:59:49Through you mr. Mayor

1:59:53Maybe is is my answer to that I think because we we don't know what the cpps bylaw

1:59:59Will permit

2:00:03Cpps bylaw is going to have quite a bit more detail than a typical zoning

2:00:08Uh zoning bylaw will have in it

2:00:10And I'm assuming it will build on the secondary plan

2:00:13But it really does need to align with the secondary plan to my earlier point

2:00:18If in fact the cpps bylaw is going to open up that opportunity for additional height

2:00:23It really should be acknowledged in the secondary plan that that will be appropriate

2:00:28I'm not saying the secondary plan should establish an upper limit for the cpps bylaw

2:00:33But should should have a notwithstanding policy that says

2:00:36Okay, we have these height limits 20 24 stories whatever was ultimately approved by council

2:00:41Um, but then it also opens up that opportunity

2:00:44For on a site by site basis for additional height to be permitted

2:00:48If it's not in there then frankly you may not conform with the official plan

2:00:52Which may create some legal issues for you

2:00:53So we do recognize that opportunity and so if it's addressed in the secondary plan with this with this update that that will be

2:01:01A possibility through the cpps bylaw absolutely that will give us some comfort

2:01:06We'd love to see a bit more certainty now because we are moving fairly quickly forward with with our urban design master plan

2:01:13And hopefully development applications later this year. So I know the timing of the cpps bylaw

2:01:18It's meant to start this spring, but when it finishes is a little unclear at this point

2:01:22So we're taking this opportunity I get to get some certainty for our site

2:01:26Recognizing that there may be that future opportunity, but we'd like to a bit of clarity that there will be that opportunity for increased height

2:01:34Okay, and through you margoth. Just another question if I could

2:01:38you mentioned that um

2:01:40The current downtown height study is very prescriptive but based on different sites

2:01:47So can you help me understand if it was not prescriptive based on individual sites?

2:01:53What would then control some of the massing what would prevent the city from just having these walls of

2:02:00You know all to the maximum height

2:02:03Uh casting shadow on you know downtown streets where there are patios that kind of thing

2:02:07So if it's not a prescriptive, here's where we'd like to see the height

2:02:12And it's a up to whatever anywhere you want to be

2:02:16How does the city control its own?

2:02:19realm and ambiance and um

2:02:23public spaces

2:02:25Through you mr. Mayor again

2:02:27That's that's an excellent question. I'll try to be brief with my response

2:02:31um

2:02:33But I want to be clear that when I when I said I think you should be more

2:02:36Take a more simplistic approach and be more flexible about height limits

2:02:40First of all my area of interest is not only the development site plan number two site

2:02:44But really the south of the tracks because I think we can all agree not enough development has happened there between the river

2:02:51and the tracks

2:02:53Uh a more flexible approach there could work. I'm not saying it's categorical 20 25 story limit everywhere necessarily

2:03:00I'm not close enough to the analysis that this team has done to to say that

2:03:05I think a more simplistic approach could be taken

2:03:08So I'll answer your question in one way to say

2:03:10If you're not flexible

2:03:12Then the property owner who has got a height limit of eight stories next to someone who's got a height limit of 12 stories

2:03:18Will wonder well, what's the difference? So if a rationale can be provided that's very solid

2:03:23um

2:03:24As the recommendations come forward then it might be very

2:03:28Convincing to counsel who ultimately has to approve development applications

2:03:32Why there's that difference?

2:03:33But sometimes it's hard to make that case about why the line is drawn in that particular place

2:03:38So you just have to consider those future

2:03:41Applications and the challenges of making the case on one site versus the other for a certain height

2:03:49My other response to that question is to recognize that there are other controls

2:03:53Besides height to ensure you don't get a wall of buildings

2:03:58The thing about

2:03:59taller buildings and I'm thinking of buildings over 12 15 stories, which you're already there now with 18 story buildings

2:04:06is

2:04:07The height doesn't matter

2:04:09Really as much as the overall mass of that building the size of the floor plate

2:04:14how the

2:04:15taller building transitions down to the sidewalk how that building is experienced at the lower levels

2:04:23As you're walking along the street. That's that's really the most critical thing

2:04:28And you have controls over that through the secondary plan with

2:04:32With maximum floor plate sizes with requirements for step backs at certain heights

2:04:37You also have quite a detailed design guideline packages like built for manual built form standards

2:04:44That also help to ensure

2:04:46That every tower is sculpted

2:04:48So i'm not going to comment and say that you should permit 20 25 story buildings everywhere

2:04:53I'm not i'm not really saying that when I say more flexible approach

2:04:56It's i'm throwing it kind of back to the study team to say here think about a little bit more flexibility

2:05:01So your point is well taken that you you don't want to just have 20 story buildings everywhere

2:05:06But I would assure you I think through policies through guidelines

2:05:10Whatever the height limits are

2:05:13Site by site you'll have a chance to get it right and avoid a wall impact for sure

2:05:18Not every site is going to work for a tall building to even begin with

2:05:21Because of the size of them and and because parking won't work with them

2:05:25There's a whole bunch of considerations

2:05:27In determining whether a site will even work for a tall building a long-winded answer. So thank you for listening. It's appreciated. Thank you

2:05:35Councillor Allt

2:05:38America three through you to mr. Smith mr. Smith. Thank you very much for your presentation. It was

2:05:44Easily understandable

2:05:46My question is a little simpler than councillor works. It relates to

2:05:50Elizabeth street and I believe if I recollect the

2:05:54suggestion that you have proposed in your

2:05:57presentation was a

2:05:59Maximum of either four or six stories. I was wondering what the rationale for that would be is it streetscape?

2:06:06You'd mention wall of buildings. Is it about traffic?

2:06:10What are the reasons that you would believe that a smaller building on elizabeth street is a better fit?

2:06:19Through you mr. Mayor if i'm understanding the question correctly

2:06:22I think you're you're maybe referring to what we consider to be an acceptable height

2:06:26At the north end of of the plant number two site correct

2:06:30Correct. Yes. Well as I as I was saying earlier

2:06:33I do believe that you know any development of the wood site has to kind of respect that low scale fabric of of the ward

2:06:41And that would include elizabeth street elizabeth street is a different road. It's a busy road

2:06:47It has some opportunity for for a mix of uses not just residential

2:06:51so

2:06:52Would six stories be appropriate?

2:06:55Maybe but frankly our site we don't feel it's it's it's necessary and

2:07:01Really would work within the kind of overall vision we have for the site that just maintaining that kind of four-story

2:07:09Edge is consistent with what is there and and will make for a building that is economically viable as soon as you go from

2:07:17A three four-story building up to a six

2:07:19You're already getting into challenges around parking and things like that. So it's more from a practical

2:07:25perspective that we're kind of

2:07:28Keeping things at a at a low height along elizabeth street. It's not to say you wouldn't object to a

2:07:34You know an increased height limit there. I'm not sure we would take advantage of it

2:07:38We only have a really small piece of developable land on elizabeth street

2:07:43Is that does that answer your question?

2:07:45Absolutely. Thank you. I'll probably take it up to staff later on. Thank you again. Appreciate the presentation

2:07:50you're welcome

2:07:54that um

2:07:56That seems it. I think uh, you we've given a good presentation for us. Thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you for the time

2:08:04All right, everybody. So that's the end of those that have signed up. There is a moment here

2:08:08We're going to have a phone number come up on the screen

2:08:12Um for those that might want to call in if they want to give feedback

2:08:15Uh including the room for just a second. I'll give out the phone number 519837

2:08:215603 we're going to take about a three to four minute kind of four four minute five minute break tops

2:08:28Um to see if anyone else wishes wishes to do that

2:08:31Uh, was there someone in the room that also wanted to speak to this issue?

2:08:36Not at this time. Okay. Thank you. So we'll just wait to see if someone wants to call in then. Okay. Thank you

2:12:15Uh, this is just the 32nd uh heads up

2:12:19That we're going to call the meeting back to order

2:12:46Okay. Thank you. I believe we have two people that have called in and so we have first up

2:12:53is uh arena bliss and then second will be susan watson

2:12:58And for those joining us, uh, if you haven't heard before

2:13:02You have no more than 10 minutes

2:13:04You'll hear a chime at nine minutes and 30 seconds or I can give you a little bit of a heads up

2:13:10um

2:13:11And the microphone will be muted at the 10 minute mark if you get to that point if you need to

2:13:16Uh, so please try your best not to do that. I'll turn it over to arena. You can you hear me? Okay

2:13:27Good evening. Thank you. Are you able to hear me? Okay

2:13:31Uh, yes your internet might not be the best but we can hear you. We'll give it a

2:13:38Give it a go if there's a problem. I'll jump in and stop the time. Okay

2:13:44So the connection is not robust enough. It may not be a good opportunity to speak then because unfortunately I'm on a

2:13:52tablet device

2:13:55Actually, you're coming through very well now. We can all hear you you can keep going if there's a problem

2:13:59I'll interrupt if you don't hear from me interrupting it means you're coming through just fine

2:14:04Well, thank you. Good evening mayor city council clerk project managers and other guests. My name is arena

2:14:11And for transparency, I'll share that I'm newer to well and part of my background is the master's degree in engineering

2:14:17And I work for a time as an environmental and consulting engineer

2:14:21I'm joining the public meeting today to express probably what are

2:14:26Different concerns than what has been talked about so far, but

2:14:30Essentially concerns with proposed increased building heights and developments in well

2:14:35So serious concerns with proposed taller buildings include that taller buildings are not aligned with climate change adaptation and mitigation strategies

2:14:45and ecological and societal climate resilience

2:14:49Insight from numerous experts and studies largely advocate for a maximum for the fixed story development

2:14:55Many experts reflect that low rise living closer to nature

2:14:59facilitates a stronger community oriented way of life and ken yang a leading figure on sustainable

2:15:06Development states that at the outset we should be clear that tall buildings are not an ecological building type

2:15:12In fact, it's one of the most unecological of all building types

2:15:16taller buildings requires excessive materials and sophisticated structural systems to withstand greater wind forces

2:15:23Also demand greater energy to construct hence the higher embodied energy

2:15:28as well as

2:15:30significant energy demands to operate maintain transport heat especially cool

2:15:38There are many environmental and ecological concerns at what is passed of this 11th hour of climate change

2:15:47Including negative watershed impacts water insecurity and supply issues

2:15:53And i'm not sure that there has been a comprehensive watershed study and alliance for example with indigenous knowledge keepers and elders who

2:16:01Know this watershed ecosystem

2:16:04There's also concerns around high energy use and carbon emissions and footprints

2:16:09We know now that the latest review is that we are at the 1.5 degree south piaz global warming

2:16:17Point and that tall buildings by their very nature carry a huge carbon footprint

2:16:22embodied energy and ongoing greater energy consumption and emissions

2:16:27generated than smaller buildings

2:16:30We also have fire concerns and increased fire safety risks with taller buildings

2:16:35An urban heat island effect with heat concentrations created by tall buildings

2:16:41increasing temperatures and impacting

2:16:44the quality of life

2:16:46In thermal discomfort both indoor and outdoor spaces

2:16:50We see increased risk of communicable diseases and viruses through warmer fluid air and lack of natural

2:16:58Ventilation that can increase people's risk of infectious diseases and transmission

2:17:03We see weather events or power outages can lead residents without power water versus spades periods creating great instability and suffering

2:17:13And of course wind challenges with taller buildings causing windy conditions and discovered to the death strand

2:17:19cyclists and local communities

2:17:22As well there are other air quality challenges

2:17:25challenges with light and obstruction of views

2:17:29And a significant challenge as well in this lower rise bird friendly

2:17:35Well environment is taller denser buildings are known to cause significant bird collisions and deaths

2:17:43We know there are increased flooding and flood risks with impervious ground parking and roof services of building developments

2:17:50Can significantly worsen flooding local flood risk runoff and contamination issues

2:17:57And we see other concerns with tall buildings including weight management concerns vertical transportation challenges

2:18:04parking concerns with increased congestion

2:18:07reduced air quality and ongoing repair and maintenance challenges

2:18:12As well there are family and community social and health concerns with taller buildings greater than four to six

2:18:21tall buildings often foster vertical gated community

2:18:26reinforcing separation social and economic segregation

2:18:31And limit social interaction and sense of community compared to lower rise settings

2:18:37Many studies have shown that residents of taller buildings experience emotional stress and other negative

2:18:45psychological conditions including isolation

2:18:48loneliness and depression

2:18:51And even if buildings offer daycare centers and playgrounds children often lack spontaneous play and exploration

2:18:58and overall there are

2:19:00serious concerns with the mandate for growth and urbanization

2:19:05When we look at human urbanism and growth we see that it's contributing to ongoing ecological destruction

2:19:13And and some collapse and a real potential to compromise the vitality of human life on earth

2:19:20As just one reflection if the rest of the world were to consume the energy water and materials that north americans use

2:19:28It's estimated that we would need five

2:19:31So I feel we have a lot of work to do to simplify to lessen our material water and energy usage

2:19:39and actually work to

2:19:42implement low or no growth initiatives to restore biodiversity

2:19:47and ensure

2:19:48affordable and climate resilience housing for all and work to build true climate resilience

2:19:56My proposed recommendations are to reject and to increase downtown building heights and instead

2:20:05maintain the six story building heights

2:20:07Also work to maintain the definition of mid-rise building forms to be the building between four and six stories

2:20:14This was originally defined not increasing the definition to create your height as this is more aligned with global understanding as well

2:20:23Ultimately, I am

2:20:26suggesting

2:20:27a recommendation to reject the proposal for the development of taller buildings

2:20:32Asking this era of climate change and extreme weather events and construction taller buildings

2:20:38unsustainable

2:20:39Ecologically and socially damaging and increasingly at risk of being unlivable

2:20:45The recommendation instead is to prioritize and actively work on climate change mitigation and adaptation

2:20:52strategies to effectively reduce and respond to the effects of climate change

2:20:59As mentioned recent news indicates that we are already at or both the 1.5 degrees

2:21:04Celsius change and global warming and scientists have said that increasing

2:21:09Um at this level and beyond will bring extreme heat drought floods and fires which we already are seeing of course

2:21:18Making it increasingly hard for humans and ecosystems to adapt and survive

2:21:24Growth targets increase density development and taller building heights are not aligned with climate change adaptation

2:21:33mitigation and resilience

2:21:35locally and globally

2:21:37The recommendation is to prioritize and implement low or no growth and deep growth measures

2:21:44to

2:21:46vitally restore balance and well-being instead of

2:21:51prioritizing profit and development as usual

2:21:56and lastly

2:21:57The recommendation is to work to decolonize and implement or integrate indigenous government models

2:22:04in policies planning engineering systems

2:22:09councils and in practice and to

2:22:13More strongly implement indigenous lands or allied

2:22:18Concentration and restoration that naturally focus on holistic well-being the priority

2:22:26In the spirit of true reconciliation

2:22:28I would like to see this community also seek indigenous consultation and consent for development plans and resource use

2:22:36I feel this is more in keeping with honoring treaty agreements that were meant to be sharing and reciprocal agreement

2:22:44And lastly in decolonizing work

2:22:47I feel it's important to begin to question and see how urbanism

2:22:51is another expression of colonialism and practical decolonization

2:22:56In cities will require the active pursuit of de-urbanization and the regeneration of healthy

2:23:03bio diverse natural spaces

2:23:06And rule as well as indigenous well-being

2:23:09It's also important. I feel to notice how we as Canadian community may still largely speak to ignore

2:23:16Or sometimes decolonial narratives that oppose or are not aligned with modern western civilization

2:23:23and intentions for ongoing growth and development

2:23:28Thank you for this opportunity to speak and to share this feedback and encouragement

2:23:33To prioritize building climate resilience and balance. Thank you

2:23:42Thank you so much for calling in you right under the wire there of the 10 minute time frame

2:23:48So we appreciate that. Let me ask if there's any follow-up questions

2:23:53There is not thank you very much Irene have a good rest of the day

2:23:57Thank you

2:23:59And next up is uh, Susan Watson and then after that we did have one more. Uh, wilford uh, ferwarda is could it be uh

2:24:06Speaking after Susan Susan. Uh, can you just check your microphone for us?

2:24:14Yep, you're coming through great. Thank you for joining us. I'll turn it over to you

2:24:20May I go through your members of council? I guess my

2:24:24overwhelming feeling at looking at the maps for

2:24:29The new building proposed building heights was really one of

2:24:33dismay

2:24:35I was involved in the downtown

2:24:38secondary plan

2:24:40planning process

2:24:41leading up to an award-winning plan in 2012

2:24:46And a number of you who are around the council or shoe are online were also on council at that time involved in the process

2:24:55Part of the reason that that plan won awards because was because it directed

2:25:00um

2:25:02high density tall buildings

2:25:05around the perimeter of the historic core to the geographically

2:25:11lowest area so a key intent

2:25:14Was to preserve the historic character of the core and you just have to look to european cities who have done that

2:25:21they have

2:25:24High-rise buildings that they preserve

2:25:27their historic areas intact

2:25:30another part of that award-winning plan was

2:25:34The radical concept that if you're adding in people

2:25:38Then you need to add in parkland. We don't build subdivisions without parks

2:25:43And so because of all the population that was going to be added into the downtown there was a visionary

2:25:49part of the plan which was taking the plaza at the corner of gordon and wellington and actually

2:25:57um unpaving

2:25:59A parking lot and creating pair as some paradise there along the river side

2:26:04So many of the buildings uh that were envisioned for the downtown secondary plan have in fact been built

2:26:11But that park is nowhere in sight

2:26:14um

2:26:15It's way overdue in terms of the timelines in terms of been put in place been being put in place

2:26:21so in terms of looking at adding in um

2:26:25All this new population and new heights when we don't even have the parkland that we were promised as part of the old plan

2:26:31just really raises red flags for me

2:26:34and I would also point out from

2:26:37housing perspective

2:26:38We added uh all kinds of housing into the downtown

2:26:42But we didn't add any affordable housing basically I think to the letter all of those buildings are luxury condominiums

2:26:51And going forward we're just on the parkland

2:26:55file we are staring down

2:26:57a critical shortage of parkland

2:27:01citywide to

2:27:022021

2:27:04The other key question is uh for all of this added population is where the water

2:27:10going to come from

2:27:11Um, I think the previous delegate really set out for you how we're in a situation of overshoot on a planetary level

2:27:19But we're also heading for a situation of overshoot

2:27:22in relation to our water to

2:27:242021

2:27:26And I'm not the main person telling you that the former ceo scott stewart

2:27:31When you change the zoning for the innovation district to housing

2:27:36reminded you that the city barely squeaked in

2:27:40population for the water supply master plans

2:27:422021 and by changing that zoning you were actually over zoning

2:27:48For our our water supply

2:27:51So it seems to me that ever any building that comes forward always has floors added to it always has units added to it

2:27:59um, and so my big question that I think

2:28:02We need to answer as the community before we do any more of this kind of planning is what is the cumulative

2:28:08impact of all of this added population

2:28:12Relative to our actual water supply. I mean if we're if we're wanting to spend a multi billion dollars

2:28:18On a pipe to make theory then let's be upfront about making that decision

2:28:24Let's not just do a what at the last time g folks. We don't have enough water for our population

2:28:31My question about the

2:28:33Flexibility concept with this plan. I'll admit I haven't been able to dig into it in detail

2:28:37But who does who does that serve again? It just feels like rolling out the mat

2:28:43for developers that we've

2:28:46Got rid of heritage constraints environmental constraints. We're subsidizing DCs now. We're going to provide flexibility

2:28:55I was interested, you know to hear

2:28:58counselor reports question about what prevents

2:29:02Overmassing

2:29:04A question I would have too is like once we make those official

2:29:09Official plan changes in terms of zoning. I don't understand this community permit plan concept

2:29:15I mean have we really created as a bright zoning

2:29:19For the developers like anyone who owns that property. Are they going to expect?

2:29:24To develop to that height whether or not someone else is gone first

2:29:28And are we going to find ourselves in a situation of vertical sprawl?

2:29:34I also want to point out that due to um

2:29:37recent provincial

2:29:39legislation and this came out with the skyline building opposite city hall

2:29:43Is that buildings in proximity to?

2:29:46um

2:29:47To transit hubs are no longer required to have parking spaces

2:29:52so

2:29:53I'm going to guess at almost all of the

2:29:56increased height buildings

2:29:58In the downtown are not going to require

2:30:01any parking to be built

2:30:03And besides creating all kinds of gridlock and parking issues in the downtown

2:30:09I want people to think very carefully about the financial implications

2:30:14So if a given developer is able to save

2:30:17$70,000

2:30:20per unit on not having to build a parking space because that's that's what the cost in the downtown

2:30:27Then that will drop the price point of that condo rental or sale

2:30:33by 20 below

2:30:36Average market rental rates

2:30:38And so what happens when that magic number is

2:30:42reached?

2:30:42Well, if a if a building is built or rented 20 below market rate

2:30:47Then the development charges can be waived and because there is no development charge

2:30:54Tooth Fairy

2:30:55If it's not being paid by developers or by the purchaser

2:30:59Then it's going to be paid by Guelph citizens

2:31:02So if we have a scenario where

2:31:05Because all the buildings in the downtown are going to be exempted from creating parking

2:31:10Therefore they can drop their prices and therefore the dc tab is going to land on on citizens

2:31:17So I would want

2:31:19The city to be crystal clear on what the cost of all of this development is going to be if the tab is going to be 100%

2:31:27paid by citizens

2:31:30I would say that

2:31:32I'm in agreement with some of the

2:31:34um developer delegates that I heard speak before I think there really does need to be

2:31:41Uh more planning around this project

2:31:44um, there needs to be

2:31:47You know, I I think like developers I would like to understand the reasoning and the rationale

2:31:52Behind decisions have been that have been made and I think what we really probably need

2:31:57If we really want to update our downtown secondary plan that we need a full sim

2:32:02update process with proper engagement

2:32:05um, it is really raising red flags for me that

2:32:10Uh, almost all the delegates

2:32:12With the exception of myself and the previous one were from the development industry and you had one piece of correspondence from

2:32:20citizens

2:32:21I reached out to julia at 10c. They were in front of you

2:32:26Around the skyline building. They didn't even know this meeting

2:32:29Was going on. There's no business owners represented who have restaurants with patios

2:32:35No one from the ward

2:32:37They were very engaged around the fusion building. They care about their community

2:32:42There was certainly outcry around the skyline building near the armory. It's not that people

2:32:48um

2:32:49Don't care about these issues. They absolutely do but something has happened

2:32:54Where nobody in the community seems to know

2:32:58And I know that uh developers have

2:33:01That but they're able to to pay um full time to monitor monitor these situations

2:33:07But it's it's the job that the city to proactively reach out to citizens to make sure that they know these things

2:33:14Are going on. I have a mental picture of the

2:33:18downtown secondary plan process that led up to the

2:33:212012 plan and there were groups of people gathered around

2:33:253d

2:33:26models

2:33:27I think it was in like the newly built city hall at that time. So there was

2:33:32Incredibly robust engagement with the community and I think that needs to happen

2:33:38That needs to happen before this plan is updated

2:33:42Um, I would also ask that there be clarity

2:33:46When we're talking communication

2:33:48Community engagement that needs to be to parse out

2:33:52Are we talking citizen engagement and people who have no 30 secondary interest?

2:33:58Are we talking um about developers and their paid staff and we need to have

2:34:04You know, we we now have a lobbying registry because we wanted more transparency

2:34:09We need transparency around engagement to see who is engaging and putting forward ideas

2:34:16With a pecuniary interest because it's all lumped into one thing and say this is what the quote

2:34:24Thank you Susan that that is your 10 minute time limit. So

2:34:27You're you're you're done there, but let me just see if there's a follow-up question to you

2:34:31Is there any follow-up question for my colleagues?

2:34:35There is not so thank you very much for calling in

2:34:41Um, and so our third person is uh, not with us anymore. So that was it for our our call ins

2:34:48There. Um, thank you very much for everyone that that has provided feedback to this this moment

2:34:55um

2:34:56So it uh, it is back to us

2:34:59council

2:35:00to give our own feedback

2:35:02to

2:35:04staff and our consultant group to take away

2:35:07and

2:35:09I know that

2:35:10counselor chu and richardson agreed to move in second the receipt of of this. So it's officially on the floor

2:35:18Does anyone want to um, and I would just say maybe maybe just wrap up

2:35:23Your questions and comments like at the same time if you want to do it

2:35:26So we don't have to circle around a couple times. So I'll go Gibson then an alt

2:35:32I thank you through mr. Mayor. Thanks for the presentation from

2:35:36staff and I also want to appreciate the comments from

2:35:39The delegates this evening. Uh, I was thinking the same thing a lot of the comments

2:35:44Uh, I was thinking the same thing during the presentation. So background rationale

2:35:48Uh, you know, it's hard to see the fountain street

2:35:51Um parking lot being posed for up to 20 stories and then down the hill only four to six and without uh justification

2:35:59It's a struggle um for me to to support a document without understanding. Uh, what went into those decisions decisions

2:36:07so

2:36:08Those are my comments. I think everyone kind of captured

2:36:11My my interest in the file with their questions and in comments as well. But again, um, not attributing any

2:36:18Any anything to staff? I'm sure the decisions are are justified in terms of

2:36:24To this point

2:36:25But we do need to have that background study and all the all the legitimate

2:36:30Understanding why those decisions were made and what they look like and then

2:36:33Moving forward. This is just a receipt document. We're moving forward when we come to a final decision document

2:36:40What are council's inputs? I want to make sure that um, if we have a structured

2:36:45decision making a meeting coming up

2:36:48How do staff want to receive inputs from us? Um

2:36:52In advance or or or like thanks very much

2:36:56Okay, thank you, uh, and then I'm just going to yell out what I have here

2:37:01All to then katin and then goller and then a work

2:37:06Thank you very much, ma'am. Guthrie

2:37:08Through you two staff just some comments

2:37:12Um, I do want to thank the delegates in particular. I would like to thank

2:37:17Mr. Smith, but especially mr. Isolapstein as well

2:37:20primarily because he raises a question about a particular piece of property at the corner of

2:37:27London and Woolwich that is bounded by edwin. Um, I think he's raised some fairly important points about

2:37:34Intensification in that area

2:37:37But these points go further and I would ask staff to please consider that the london pays the corridor

2:37:44In my opinion and it's only my opinion, but I think it's the opinion of many residents is problematic

2:37:49There has been an increase in density on the west side and some on the east side

2:37:54But it's been relatively untouched and on the west side. There are certainly challenges

2:37:59For parceling that potentially exists and I I note the comments of mr.

2:38:04Isolstein who said that parking and traffic is a challenge on many of those side streets

2:38:10I'll also talk to staff later on about the comment that

2:38:16Intensification was strategically located. I need to understand precisely what that means because I

2:38:23I take heart in what mr. Smith said when he talked about elizabeth street

2:38:28Concerns about streetscape and traffic and a wall of buildings is something that I think equally applies to the corridor that I'm talking about

2:38:36And that I would hope that staff would reconsider from london to paisley that

2:38:41A challenge will be a wall of buildings and I would draw attention to the the traffic issue at the corner of london from personal experience

2:38:49I can say that because traffic is a challenge. I actually was hit by a car there just last year. Fortunately, it wasn't a problem

2:38:57I did yell at the driver a bit and he apologized

2:39:00But we have traffic issues there that need to be addressed

2:39:03The point about water I think needs to be noted as well. Those are my comments americot three. Thank you very much

2:39:09Okay, thank you. Uh, kateen dengauer

2:39:13I'm here to staff. I just have a couple of questions

2:39:16um

2:39:17Based on the ontario of building code right now

2:39:21How many floors does a building have to have before an elevator is mandatory?

2:39:33through counsor

2:39:34To the mayor to counsor kateen. I'd have to check. I don't know if it's

2:39:38Four or six, but I will get back to you and send you the answer

2:39:41Great. Thank you. Um

2:39:44follow up, uh

2:39:46There's a 15 percent, um mandatory

2:39:50unobstructed

2:39:51unit

2:39:52kind of

2:39:54I don't know what would you call that mandate on buildings for multi

2:39:58um unit buildings. Is that

2:40:01For all multi unit buildings or is that for multi unit buildings of a certain size of a certain floor?

2:40:16Sorry, um to the counsor through the mayor if you could clarify what you mean by unobstructed

2:40:21So basically like accessible units where they don't necessarily have to have all the things

2:40:25But they have to have a certain width in between the kitchens and other rooms and stuff like that

2:40:29They call them accessible, but they don't necessarily have to have all of the barrier free components

2:40:37so

2:40:38Through the mayor to the counsor. So when a building permit comes in for a high rise running building that does require barrier free access

2:40:44We would look at that and there's individual room sizes as well based on barrier free access for those units. So

2:40:49We don't typically look at that till the building permit comes in

2:40:52Um, so i'm not sure if that answers your question or if you want more detail

2:40:56I think I think I worded it improperly. I'm gonna try again. Um

2:41:01So I know that there's a 15 percent

2:41:03mandatory for multi uh unit buildings

2:41:07Is there a limitation on that or is it any multi unit building that's new?

2:41:11Like is it only for multi unit buildings over four floors or

2:41:16That have like 20 odd units or is it just any building that's multi unit has to have 15 percent that qualify?

2:41:25Uh through the mayor to the counsor

2:41:27I will include that on my elevator response and I can send it to all councillors because I do not know off the top

2:41:33Sorry, that's okay. Um and through the mayor

2:41:37another question do we have an idea of?

2:41:41What space would be required to house?

2:41:44the equivalent of one of these areas that has the up to 20 stories

2:41:50If we were to do them in a flat space because I heard a lot from the delegates on the environmental impact of high rises

2:41:57and I'm familiar with the

2:42:00environmental impact of sprawl

2:42:02and how that affects

2:42:04our water

2:42:05And our drainage and so I was just wondering if we had like a comparison

2:42:09of height versus sprawl

2:42:12and the environmental impacts on those

2:42:24through the mayor

2:42:26This is really rough, but I would say a 20 story building on on average would represent a

2:42:33Sort of a transition in terms of the number of units to single family houses on a 3000 square foot lots

2:42:38Something in the area of 14 to 15 acres

2:42:42Okay, great. Thank you. Um, so I just have my comments left

2:42:47I think that you did a really good job with a hard situation. I think that

2:42:52that we do need to have height we

2:42:56Only have so much gulf we can't really expand out anymore

2:43:00So up is kind of the way that we have to go if we're going to be meeting a lot of these provincial mandates

2:43:06and

2:43:07um

2:43:08Because there are no building codes that kind of enforce accessibility for things lower

2:43:15than the three to four

2:43:17three to four floor area

2:43:18I think that this is actually going to increase the availability of

2:43:23apartments for

2:43:24A demographic that really is underserved in terms of housing

2:43:28so, um

2:43:30I'm sure that you're going to take a lot of the feedback in that folks have given

2:43:34I just wanted to say that I appreciate the

2:43:38That this was a hard task and I think you did a good job. Thanks

2:43:42Thank you counselor

2:43:45And uh, go other than our work

2:43:47Thank you through your worship to staff

2:43:51I uh, I just wanted to echo uh counselor Gibson's request if we could have some of the background information

2:43:57Someone that said uh the rationale that went into the heights that were presented, you know, whether there were studies

2:44:04um, and and I I'm wondering if along with that would it be possible for us to see some

2:44:12The signs of what it would look like, you know built out to the stories

2:44:17So that you know, if I'm coming into the downtown I would have an idea of what it would look like to have

2:44:23some

2:44:2420 22 story buildings so that we can have an idea of what that actually

2:44:29Looks like built out. I know having done with uh, whether with the charrettes

2:44:35There was a mock-up

2:44:37On the ground

2:44:38That you could see sort of the heights and I wonder if that could be presented as part of the information

2:44:43So that we can actually imagine or picture what that might look like

2:44:48And then as a as a comment I

2:44:52I really appreciated that

2:44:54The delegate that spoke by phone

2:44:56raising the the environmental concerns about the

2:45:00The build structure but as as counselor kate and just mentioned

2:45:04There's also the offset of if we're not going to house folks in uh in in buildings

2:45:10We are building sprawl

2:45:12So I think that is a consideration that that I'm going to take back with me to to consider

2:45:17But I did want to ask our staff

2:45:20On those on these lines if we are increasing the density of downtown

2:45:24Does that mean that we're increasing the overall population of wealth or is it a first come first serve?

2:45:30We build more density in downtown and then we are building less somewhere else. Could you could you help me understand that?

2:45:42through the counselor

2:45:43through the mayor, sorry

2:45:46The we're we're not actually looking at increasing the density

2:45:50of

2:45:51OPA 80 set out 200 people jobs per hectare

2:45:56the master plan work

2:45:58That is being undertaken in the downtown plus the overall water and wastewater master plan look to that number

2:46:05What we're looking to provide is some flexibility in where

2:46:10That height can be contained

2:46:13and that and that

2:46:15Accompanying density

2:46:17So we are doing a modeling exercise with our consulting team

2:46:24to look at

2:46:25those those densities based on the heights we are proposing and

2:46:30We'll take back the comments

2:46:33From yourselves and and from the public to see if there's locations where

2:46:38It may not be an appropriate fit

2:46:41Okay, okay, I really appreciate that so just to be clear

2:46:45Even though we had previously approved lower heights by increasing the height

2:46:49We're not increasing the population for the city or the density for the downtown

2:46:53We're just shifting where the heights are going to be. That's correct. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you worship

2:47:00Great. Thank you counselor caller or work than downer

2:47:03Thank you. My god three my colleagues have asked a couple of my questions

2:47:07um

2:47:09Through you merga three to staff. I'm just wondering if we've done a financial

2:47:14analysis of

2:47:16All these buildings being subject to community benefit charges and how that returns to the city and

2:47:23I would like you to confirm that all of those taller buildings would be subject to the minimum 5 of affordable housing

2:47:30Because they will be closed to a major transit station

2:47:32So have we done that analysis of the potential outcome in terms of the number of affordable housing units?

2:47:38I know it depends on who bills what where

2:47:41Um and the potential on the community benefit charge

2:47:48That work is being considered through the community planning permit system work and bylaw

2:47:54Under a community planning permit system

2:47:57Community benefits charges are captured through what we're calling in the stone road area is a a complete community charge or a

2:48:05Something similar to that

2:48:07The five percent that councillor work

2:48:11spoke to

2:48:13It's really a number that comes out of some inclusionary zoning studies. We're not proposing

2:48:18inclusionary zoning in in the downtown at this point in time

2:48:23But looking to do something similar through the cpp work

2:48:27Uh, so i'm on the fine on the financial side. Um, that's the type of work that we are working with dillon on

2:48:35Once we get to the the downtown feasibility thresholds

2:48:39of what that number is um when

2:48:42Sorry to be making this a little bit longer

2:48:45A cpp bylaw is specific

2:48:50To height and density so the the number of affordable housing units you can get in a development has to be related to

2:48:57How much extra height or density?

2:49:00the bylaw

2:49:01permits

2:49:03So what that cost is

2:49:05Is we we need to do

2:49:07A little bit more performer work. We started in on the performer work for a down for stone road in envera

2:49:13That it's coming to a conclusion and we'll do that

2:49:16The same for the downtown work to know what that percentage number is for a developer to understand

2:49:23Okay, so through america 3 just a comment. I thought that the province had reduced that percentage of affordable housing for inclusionary zoning

2:49:30near a major transit station from 10 to 5

2:49:34and

2:49:35So we don't currently have

2:49:37A bylaw that requires that 5% okay, so will the

2:49:43Will the will the bylaw come before the heights are permitted?

2:49:48Because I I am looking for what the community benefit is here in terms of either the charge

2:49:53Or additional parkland or additional affordable housing units. So can you just reassure me about the sequence of that?

2:50:04Sorry through through the mayor to the councillor just to clarify

2:50:08Cpp bylaw can only look at affordable housing units. We can't we can't ask for additional

2:50:14parkland we

2:50:16Understand through the work on the downtown secondary plan. There was already some you know a deficit in in parkland

2:50:22so we are making sure that

2:50:26If there's any extra

2:50:30Ability to consider the provision of parkland beyond

2:50:34The the required affordable housing units for instance if there's any any give there

2:50:41We will be capturing

2:50:43Community benefits charges as I said in a different in a different format. There's no there's no change the percentage

2:50:49The 4% that's captured under community benefits will be the same charge will apply

2:50:56In in the downtown and elsewhere if the percentage of affordable housing units may be different by area though

2:51:04because it depends on

2:51:06Really the performer analysis or the sensitivity analysis of what the cost is to provide that unit or to build that unit

2:51:14It could be what we're seeing

2:51:17preliminarily is is actually over 5%

2:51:21in the stone road area

2:51:23So we may be getting you know more units

2:51:26In that area, but the downtown we're not we're not sure yet because we haven't done that financial work

2:51:32Okay, um, thanks more questions that I'll just follow up separately then

2:51:36through mayor gethry just a comment we had a correspondence

2:51:40From uh one proponent who thought this step back should be a should rather than a shall

2:51:45I want to publicly disagree with that. I think we have to protect the public realm

2:51:50People who've walked in downtown, toronto in the shade and the wind find it extremely unpleasant and are never going to sit at a patio there

2:51:58so

2:51:59From my perspective that needs to remain a shall so that we're protecting

2:52:03streetscapes and walkability

2:52:06Um, I was curious through you mayor gothry to staff one of the letters says

2:52:10The break even would be 25 stories

2:52:14But i'm curious is that for buildings that have to provide underground parking?

2:52:18Because for the areas near the major transit station, they are not required to provide parking at all

2:52:25And so is that break even in the letter referring to parking?

2:52:28And i'll just put a pin in the parking issue that I think there will be overflow parking

2:52:36through the mayor

2:52:37It may involve uh underground parking so

2:52:41It's difficult at this level of analysis to really get into is it going to be underground parking?

2:52:46Is it going to have parking in the podium?

2:52:48What level of parking is it going to have because obviously a lot of that will depend on the tenure and what part of the market that they're

2:52:54they're aiming it for so

2:52:56As we've had the conversations with the development community on this we've tended to focus more on

2:53:03Right sizing the scale of the development not so much specific to what how much parking to provide or anything like that

2:53:10But really thinking about where how much height do you get into that?

2:53:15Reaches a point where you're getting some efficiencies in your construction. So it's a it's an efficient construction that you can undertake

2:53:22But not going so large that the development is unsellable, right?

2:53:26There's a certain

2:53:27You know depending on the absorption here in guelph you need to be able to sell that project within 18 months or two years at the

2:53:32Absolute maximum so it's too big if there's too much density

2:53:35It actually doesn't add any additional value

2:53:38So trying to think about what that sweet spot is and and what we heard from from several of the developers that we heard was somewhere in that

2:53:44Sort of 20 to 30 range. I think we heard here in the delegations that perhaps as high as 35

2:53:50And so we're trying to make some estimates there in terms of what that that best amount is

2:53:55But also taking into consideration the things that we've heard from the community in terms of of that

2:53:59So so moderating that

2:54:01We probably got it perfect on this first go probably not and so we're certainly taking the feedback we received here tonight

2:54:07Great. Thanks through you Margot three. I see I'm laughing because I see heads shaking vigorously behind you

2:54:13as people say they don't want that that that much height I think you have done a good job in terms of

2:54:20Trying to meet the need for increased density downtown for a vibrant downtown

2:54:25I think that you are trying to be context sensitive

2:54:29And I I do agree with having a cap on the heights and that anything over and above that should be subject to community benefit

2:54:38charges

2:54:40I think anything over and above the heights you're proposing really does have to show some kind of community benefit

2:54:45Um in terms of a trade-off. So I think well done

2:54:50All right. Thank you down northern chew

2:54:54Thank you through you mr. Mayor then so I just want to

2:54:56Be clear that when we do costing on this the the parking exemptions that the downtown has

2:55:04will not be included in these

2:55:07Costings because at this point we really can't tell how much public parking we're going to have to provide as a city

2:55:14Because it parking is not going to be provided within some of these well a lot of these buildings because they're not required to some well have some but

2:55:24Yeah, I know

2:55:28There's going to be demand at some point for the city to build more parkades

2:55:32And there'll be more permits and and I just think there's sort of an offloading of costs

2:55:37There will be an offloading of costs to the municipality

2:55:40Uh, for you mr. Mayor to councillor downer

2:55:44I think there's a lot of work going on trying to understand that so we are

2:55:48With engineering looking at updating the parking master plan for this study

2:55:52We have built in some assumptions because we did here in the developer focus groups that they are likely to build some parking

2:55:58So understanding what that number is is sort of a still be to to to be determined

2:56:03Um, but yeah, we're trying to build in assumptions based on

2:56:07potential underground parking potentially structured parking

2:56:11And then all of those that information helps to feed into the parking master plan update that

2:56:15Will have to come but at this point isn't fully scheduled yet. So

2:56:20Based on bill 185, there's a lot of work to be done still

2:56:24Yeah, and the consideration of how much does it take from

2:56:27tourism people parking for tourism or shopping and things like that. So

2:56:32Just a consideration that I think is going to have to be dealt with

2:56:38Uh, I think you've tried to do a good balance here and I'm I'm

2:56:45Heights has always been an issue for me, but I'm I'm I'm coming around

2:56:50My concern, um, is mostly around those still around those edge properties along, um,

2:56:57Gordon and norfolk

2:56:59And sort of willage so I on the west side

2:57:04I'm so I I understand a lot of those were heritage and they'd be hard to probably demolish some of them the stone areas but

2:57:11um

2:57:12I'm concerned about that going to six stories and some of those some of those spots. So I I'm not I'm a little sensitive to that

2:57:20um

2:57:21I don't see this as no high rise versus sprawl. It's either one or the other

2:57:27It's I think there's a balance right?

2:57:30That we have to do and I think that's what we're trying to do here

2:57:34We're not going to increase the numbers like you said that the the 200 thousand or 208

2:57:42So, um, you know, we've done pretty good at containing our boundaries and resisting the pressure to expand beyond what we have

2:57:51In Guelph and so to me, it's not oh, well, that's the cost of high rise across the sprawl

2:57:56I doesn't mean we can go we should be able to

2:58:01Do whatever because of that argument

2:58:03I think I think there is a balance and I think I see that you're trying to achieve that

2:58:07So I appreciate that

2:58:09So those are my oh those are my and the other thing where it was raised was parks

2:58:14And I do have a concern about that in the downtown the lack of green space that we have in our downtown currently

2:58:19If we you know, I don't know how far

2:58:22We'll get with our well in turn park or that whole area

2:58:27But I do have a concern about green space in the in the downtown for people living in the high rises because we all know

2:58:33That's important for a lot of things in a community and mental health and a number of other issues

2:58:41Thanks

2:58:43Thank you and uh last on my list is chew

2:58:46Go ahead

2:58:48Thank you through you mr. Mayor

2:58:51At first I just have an administrative question

2:58:54Maybe the executive team can help me out with this

2:58:57But my understanding from the agenda forecast that the built form standards would

2:59:01Was was supposed to come along with this work?

2:59:05Do we know when the built form standards?

2:59:08Is anticipated to come to us?

2:59:11um

2:59:12I I seen the report it says

2:59:14in april

2:59:16Do you I guess that would be for receiving but

2:59:22From then till the final

2:59:25Approval do you know can you guys give me a rough timeline?

2:59:30for that

2:59:33Through the mayor to you counselor. We do anticipate

2:59:36Releasing the built form standards publicly in march. So that is our goal

2:59:41Um, I don't know that we would be coming to you for receipt in april and then a future decision

2:59:46We might be bringing them to you with official plan amendment for a decision on both

2:59:51But we can consider

2:59:53The correct process if you'd like to see them for receipt first and then

2:59:57endorsement later

2:59:58But right now our plan is to bring it to release it in in march and then bring it back for decision

3:00:05Okay, no that that's good just from my own understanding and um,

3:00:10I guess I'll just move on to comments to keep it brief. Um

3:00:14Obviously, we don't have a crystal ball into the future and

3:00:17Obviously a lot of the policies that we're trying to

3:00:20Put together is so that developers can action something quickly

3:00:24um, so I think it's important for the public to get that understanding. Um,

3:00:28and there are

3:00:30Specific properties that um folks are trying to table forward. Um

3:00:35For site plan. So I think um, we just have to tell that story a little bit better. Um here in the public and

3:00:41For me, yeah seeing is believing and I do appreciate

3:00:45Um, Tim Smith and his delegation because I think it was very articulate in

3:00:51Uh, and what we're conceptualizing with the assumptions and ultimately I think that's what really matters to us here in the community that

3:00:59Um, the built form that is being put together is reflective of how we would like

3:01:05That to enhance our green spaces. Um

3:01:08Down to the river for example. So I think just for

3:01:12food for thought thoughts to the

3:01:15consultant that were

3:01:17That we've hired. Um, I just like to see more short

3:01:21Very clear short medium and long term

3:01:23Scenario testing and just very clear assumptions. Uh, that are that we are

3:01:28putting together

3:01:30Just so we're very transparent with the public and with the developer community as well because we have folks that

3:01:35Have their emphasis on the financial feasibility and of course we can't do that for every single

3:01:41Property and parcel on like within the downtown. There's just no time for that

3:01:45But I think there can be more confidence to articulate that story. Um, like we the letter from fusion for example is a good example

3:01:55it talks about how um

3:01:58There's an assumption that we can't make anything feasible if it's below 25 stories

3:02:03And I think we have an opportunity to challenge that assumption and just to ground truth some of that those concerns there

3:02:10to councillor verks point and

3:02:12Just so the constituent downtown that came forward today

3:02:17Yeah, there I think that property he's talking about on the site

3:02:20It used to be a former gas station and there's a lot of environmental remediation that has to take place to make that site work properly

3:02:27so

3:02:29I think we just have to emphasize

3:02:31Yeah, like what it is that

3:02:34We're trying to do in the short term

3:02:37for some of the folks that are

3:02:39shovel ready

3:02:40And how we're going to address some of these site specific concerns with stuff like the transportation demand management plan

3:02:48um

3:02:49And just make it very clear for people what we're looking at

3:02:52So if there's a clear methodology to kind of articulate these things

3:02:56I think we've been in good shape and I think the public is coming around to

3:03:00densification downtown because it is something that we need

3:03:04And those are just my final remarks for your consideration

3:03:08Thank you

3:03:11Thank you. We're just almost done here. I'm going to go to uh

3:03:14Boussatil and then to uh billings is going to wrap us up. I think okay

3:03:19Um, just so everyone knows just before thank you. Sorry linda for interrupting you

3:03:24We're gonna we're going to finish this off

3:03:26Then we are going to take a five to ten minute break. Okay, then we're going to come back

3:03:30And we're going to do the final the final agenda item. Just want to give everyone that heads up. Okay

3:03:35Sorry councillor Busuttil go ahead. No apology and through the mayor. Thank you very much to the staff for this

3:03:40So i'm not going to reiterate what my colleagues have said

3:03:43I'm going to do my comments first which are in addition to building height downtown toronto the lack of public spaces green public spaces

3:03:52My parents are at church and front street and there's like a little tiny triangle by flat iron building for dogs and

3:03:58People and kids and things like that. So very concerned about public parks parking

3:04:04Water i'm concerned about it's almost like we need a chart to say here's an application

3:04:10Here's the demand like we need almost like a a backwards clock to say what is the demand on our water?

3:04:16upfront for all of our conversations and the other comment was around um, just a better understanding around other

3:04:23infrastructure constraints in the downtown and the demands that will put on us to invest in infrastructure

3:04:32To make the development happen

3:04:34The only question I had was raised I think by the delegations. I'm aware of the cpp that's taking place right now for stone road area

3:04:42I can't remember if you could just remind me on the timelines for the downtown

3:04:53Through the mayor to council Boussatil

3:04:55We're looking at providing a draft of the bylaw certainly

3:05:01I would say at this point in time maybe

3:05:04Early summer with a a decision to be made before the end of the year. Okay. Thank you

3:05:16and uh billings please

3:05:21um

3:05:22It would be north folk and and paisley on the one side the south side of paisley

3:05:27We have many more stories being proposed and then on the other side where the current library is

3:05:34we have less and

3:05:37It's a good corner for density

3:05:39So I was just wondering why that site which is the current library site

3:05:45Isn't being proposed to have more stories

3:05:53Through the mayor along that corridor. We've sort of tried to take into account the lot structure there

3:05:58Certainly along the eastern sorry the western edge of of north folk. There's some

3:06:04Sort of capping sites at the end of the street to obviously the the gas station site is a key one

3:06:09On the other side as we get into some of these triangular blocks

3:06:12The lot structure becomes really sort of broken down and problematic

3:06:16It makes it somewhat difficult to provide some additional density there

3:06:19But I think what we've heard here both from the delegations and from some of the counselors is that there may be an opportunity to re-examine that corridor and

3:06:26I think you're a little bit more we can certainly take that away

3:06:29Yeah, I'd like to re-examine that corridor and then the another question I have through your worship and it's just a question

3:06:36It's not too upset anyone so I want to go west and north folk

3:06:40And it's still a number of sites are within the two to four stories

3:06:46Which I've never understood that because there are other sites within the city residential areas

3:06:54And and you have a site and in the op

3:06:57You can build an apartment up to six stories

3:07:01But yet

3:07:02We're in the downtown and this is only two to four

3:07:06So I was just wondering if staff could explain that because it just doesn't make sense

3:07:14Through the mayor sorry just clarifying council you're looking at those areas

3:07:20West west of north folk but up on the escarpment

3:07:23correct

3:07:25So we looked at those I think their location sort of higher up on the escarpment kind of

3:07:30Gives any sort of additional height in that location a lot more permanence than it would in in some of the other lower line areas

3:07:36It's also they're immediately adjacent to

3:07:40Sort of established neighborhoods and so it made sense for those to be somewhat of a transition zone

3:07:45The access up and down there actually is somewhat difficult as well. Okay, but that's what I'm saying through your worship again

3:07:51We have other

3:07:53established residential

3:07:55neighborhoods and areas in the city and there will be a site that's vacant

3:08:00Right within all the residential homes and and yet you're allowed to go six stories

3:08:07So I was just

3:08:10Wondering if it's something that we could take another look at

3:08:13Absolutely

3:08:15Okay, thank you your worship. All right. Thanks everyone. Now you're left with me

3:08:22I'll go fast as fast as I can just bullet points take them away. Okay

3:08:33So

3:08:34The first thing that jumped out to me was

3:08:41One of the delegates, I forget who it was said the word

3:08:44We can maybe be a bit bolder. I wrote down here that you know, I think this is this is like a key moment

3:08:52for us to really

3:08:54Embrace this opportunity

3:08:57Boulder sure we can use that word if you want. Um, I I just feel like we're like

3:09:0585 percent of the way there. That's just my personal feeling. I feel like

3:09:09There's 15 percent that could push us a little bit more for

3:09:15A little bit more and so what what does the word more mean?

3:09:18I it doesn't necessarily mean height even though my inclination personally would be that there should be

3:09:25more height

3:09:27So I'll just say that out loud from my perspective. It could be getting rid of this

3:09:33Density issue on those two sites one on the wood site and somewhere else as well

3:09:40Like just get rid of that like just you know

3:09:44Just get rid of it

3:09:46The urban design standards, uh, again, like I I think that's I think that's a really good tool where we can try to

3:09:54Adapt what we're looking for for the optics sort of of the downtown area and where where these are are there, but

3:10:02So I just I just want to remind everybody including myself about that

3:10:06Um, I am I am completely different than my my friendly colleague here

3:10:11Councillor Ororque around the should versus shall I am not a fan of the wedding cakes

3:10:17I am not a fan of that at all

3:10:19They completely are ugly in my viewpoint

3:10:23And they take away housing

3:10:26They take away housing

3:10:28um, and so

3:10:30looking at these

3:10:32constant step backs you are seeing more and more and more cities

3:10:37Not doing that anymore because they realize from a planning perspective

3:10:43and from a density perspective that they are are not

3:10:48They're not really positive outcomes to sort of the urban fabric

3:10:52However, where I am aligned with my colleague is that that's where the urban design and maybe being careful

3:10:59Around full corridors of just tall concrete. I get it. That's not what I want either

3:11:05But I think the should and shall

3:11:08issue

3:11:09I I would lean more around should because then a conversation can happen with developers around that because we are literally

3:11:17Eliminating housing when we do that those step backs

3:11:19Um, so I just thought I'd say that

3:11:22um

3:11:24Baker street, I know that the

3:11:26I I'm a little bit. I don't think it's in the view corridor

3:11:30where

3:11:31The windmill site is

3:11:34I I I don't understand why that can't be higher. So I'd like you to again. I don't understand some justification there

3:11:39But that's a takeaway for you there

3:11:42Um, and then I'd like to just talk to you finally about the the view corridors

3:11:47um, I

3:11:48Just want to remind everyone that even when the province kind of came in and said 23 stories everywhere

3:11:54And that was a surprise to everybody

3:11:57Even they kept the view corridors

3:12:00Well, so just just remember that okay, so um

3:12:03I am not totally tied to

3:12:07All of the view corridors personally, but I can tell that that it's it's moving in that direction

3:12:13And I think that's a balanced approach and I think that's fine

3:12:16But I think where we can have some height like Baker street as an example through that area. I think that should be

3:12:22allowed

3:12:24And then finally I'd like to ask about the flood plain. Here's a question for you from me

3:12:30You're saying that the GRCA you're in contact with them. They're going to be doing maybe some studies or hiring their own consultant

3:12:36So, you know, I'm a let's get going type of guy. And so I'm just you know, here we are like a couple years ago

3:12:44There was already a development application for that area of where the flood plain was

3:12:48Then the province came in not not on us the province came in and said hey, you have to get permissions from the

3:12:55Ministry of the environment and the Ministry of Natural Resources before you can kind of get going on this site

3:13:00So everyone kind of understood that

3:13:02Um, like where are we in the timing of this? Like I just want certainty

3:13:07For our entire planning justification for the downtown and that is a key area

3:13:13So I just really want to know like what what's holding up sort of that flood plain area

3:13:18Is there anything on us that's holding that up or is that fully on the GRCA and their flood plain?

3:13:24technical studies that they need to do

3:13:28To the mayor so you're all correct when opa ad came back the ministry and municipal affairs specifically said

3:13:34That we had to take a look at our special policy area

3:13:37And no development could happen unless in conjunction with ministry municipal affairs and mnr

3:13:42So GRCA has advanced the work on the study of the flood plain and they've put it

3:13:48They've started work on it and are going to bring it for by the end of 2025 is

3:13:52Brenna

3:13:53Mentioned and then we're going to follow up with the the policy format around that

3:13:58So the work has to be done for the flood plain first

3:14:00So the ministry asked us through opa ad everybody's working hard to get it

3:14:04But it's it's a big technical report and looking at property by property to see what can happen

3:14:09And that's why those in the special policy area on that mapping

3:14:13Those heights have remained as is so we saw from the delegates, you know higher heights

3:14:19But until until that work is done

3:14:22We're not in a position to move that so as Brenna mentioned, it's probably

3:14:26You know down how tights 2.0, which will come back

3:14:29But the the soonest it can come back is 2026

3:14:34All right, so all I would ask is a takeaway because I fully recognize it's a takeaway that

3:14:38As the g rca thing is done that we are we are in parallel with them doing whatever's coming out of that

3:14:44To get the 2.0 done and and solidified so we can move forward

3:14:49I understand the

3:14:51The permitting system and how there's the relationship between some extra height for community good. I understand that

3:14:59You know, I I would I would personally argue that the wood site

3:15:04You've already allowed 20. I would personally argue that just if this again, you have to justify it

3:15:10I'm not that type of guy, but if you if it can be justified at the 24, they're they're looking for 24 like

3:15:17My my instinct is to say just just just allow the 24

3:15:22Well, it's just allow them to get going. I bet you any money there'll be a lot of community benefit that will come out of that

3:15:27With that certainty anyways, that's my personal position on that one

3:15:31Um, other than that, I would like to echo what councillor downer said about the word balance

3:15:35I think this is this is well done as a balance

3:15:40In fact, many of the developers here even said like you can incorporate heritage

3:15:43There was nobody here saying like in fact, I heard from nobody that was like heritage is going to get in the way

3:15:48I heard none of that. So I think that's important

3:15:51I'm glad we didn't go 23 everywhere, which is what was originally planned

3:15:55And I'm glad that we're not lower than what I kind of thought we would be lower and I'd be more upset

3:16:01So I'm glad to see that we're at where we're at. But again, I'm going to just rest on that

3:16:06I think personally we're 85 of the way there. I think we need a little bit more

3:16:12Flexibility a little bit more height maybe a little bit more density make it easier

3:16:17So that the vision of the things that are almost shovel ready can literally become shovels in the ground and we can get going

3:16:25I I think I think everyone would probably be okay with that to a certain degree

3:16:30And I'm looking forward to maybe that conversation with whatever that is when I when it comes back out. Okay

3:16:35With that, thank you for moving and seconding to and Richardson

3:16:39And I will call the vote then as anyone against just receiving this information

3:16:45Nobody great. Thank you very much. So as I promised, we're going to take a break

3:16:50It is right now 706. Why don't we say that we come back here at 715? Okay, we'll just start right at 715

3:16:56Take a quick break and then we just got that last the last one that's in front of us

3:17:00Which is about the community improvement plan for the housing. Okay, so we'll be right back here at 715. Thanks everyone

3:25:44Okay, this is your 30 second warning everybody in the room and online

3:26:23Just looking for cameras online there if they could be turned. Oh, we got we got quorum. Thank you councillor Goller to the rescue