Committee of the Whole

1:50All right, good afternoon everybody.

1:51It is 1.30.

1:53It is Wednesday, July the 3rd, 2024.

1:56And I'll call the meeting to order.

1:59Hope everyone's long weekend was good.

2:01And thank you for joining us for our committee meeting.

2:05Right off the top, I'm looking for approval

2:08to move into a closed session.

2:11And it is under the title on the open agenda,

2:15Letters of Intent to Acquire Municipal Property Unsolicited.

2:19Section 239, to see of the municipal act

2:22related to a proposed or pending acquisition

2:25or disposition of land by the municipality or local board.

2:29Before I call that vote, is there any disclosure

2:33or pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof?

2:38Seeing and hearing none on that item.

2:40So would someone be willing to move

2:42to go into closed on that one?

2:45Councillor Keran and Gibson on screen there.

2:49Anything further on that?

2:51No, okay.

2:52I'll call the vote.

2:53Is anyone against moving into closed?

2:56Nobody, that's unanimous.

2:57Okay, so we will move into a closed session.

2:59And then when that is done,

3:01we will come on back out.

3:04And our open session should be starting right at two o'clock.

3:07Thank you.

41:41Great, thank you.

41:41Everyone, I'll just call the meeting back to order here

41:43in the open session.

41:44And so sorry that we are a few minutes behind

41:47with our closed meeting.

41:49As I normally do, I'll just do a quick update

41:53from a summary perspective.

41:54And so we did go into closed as listed on the open agenda

41:57under the title, Letters of Intent

42:00to Acquire Municipal Property Unsolicited.

42:03And so we did receive information from staff

42:07and we did also give direction to staff on those.

42:12With that, that's my summary.

42:15And thank you again for joining us now

42:17for our open session of Committee of the Whole.

42:20And to start things off,

42:22stand please if you are able to recognize our national anthem.

44:09Okay, just a moment of silent reflection as we continue.

44:29Thank you.

44:30And now our territorial acknowledgement.

44:32As we gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege

44:34to live and work here in Guelph,

44:36a city built over rich indigenous histories.

44:39We're guests here and we should reflect upon

44:41the responsibility to care for the land and the people

44:43who live here today and the generations to come.

44:46For actions today can move us towards reconciliation.

44:49We should take pause and make those decisions

44:52with intention and gratitude.

44:54This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands

44:57and a place of refuge for many peoples over time,

45:00but more specifically the Aniwaterok and the Hone Nishoni.

45:04This land is held as the treaty lands and territory

45:07with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation

45:09and Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman tract

45:12and is part of a long established traditional hunting ground

45:15for the six nations of the Grand River.

45:17Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis people

45:19who have come from across Turtle Island

45:21call Guelph home today.

45:24And with that, we'll just move into the agenda.

45:28Is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest

45:30or any general nature thereof at this time?

45:34None hearing or seeing.

45:36So we're gonna go into staff recognitions

45:39and we have someone that has been called to the bar,

45:43a different bar.

45:45And am I going to you, Chair Caron,

45:52for the talking points?

45:56Okay, yeah, I'm gonna turn it over to our chair.

45:58Fantastic, as chair of corporate services,

46:01I love this part of council meetings

46:04because we have some incredible people on our team.

46:08So on behalf of council, it is my pleasure to recognize

46:12Ian White, a member of our legal and court services team

46:16who on June the 14th, 2024 was called to the bar of Ontario

46:19and is now a lawyer licensee.

46:22Ian completed the mandatory articles of clerkship

46:25with the city under the supervision

46:28of our very own Allison Thornton, our associate solicitor.

46:31And in that role assisted on a number

46:34of Ontario land tribunal matters,

46:36including a lengthy and successful hearing.

46:40Following his article period,

46:42Ian studied for and passed the Barrister's examination

46:46and the solicitor's examinations,

46:48all while continuing to work full time

46:51in our legal services department.

46:53With his call to the bar of Ontario,

46:56Ian is a graduate of the University of Victoria

46:59faculty of law and is now a lawyer in both Ontario

47:03and British Columbia.

47:05Congratulations Ian on this fantastic life achievement.

47:16Awesome, Ian you're here today.

47:19So please stand on up for us there.

47:21Let's officially recognize you here in the audience.

47:29Allison is sitting there like a proud mentor.

47:33That's great.

47:34Well, we appreciate your whole legal team of course.

47:37That helps us greatly and welcome to that now position

47:41and all the best to you moving forward.

47:44Thank you for your work here.

47:46Is there gonna be anything,

47:47do you have a certificate at all that was given to you

47:50or anything like that,

47:52an email that shows that you're really a lawyer

47:54or anything like that?

47:56No, okay, well it doesn't matter.

47:58You're gonna just get me with a thumbs up

48:00in front of the Guelph sign.

48:01So come on in down here

48:03and bring your team down with you.

49:20Okay, at this time I'll just ask chair downer

49:23to come on up here.

49:58Okay, we're onto the public services part of the agenda

50:03and we have a number of items up for discussion

50:07with delegations on each one of them.

50:09So we're gonna start with the heritage minimum standards,

50:13property standards bylaw amendment 2024267

50:18and we have two delegations on that matter.

50:22There's no presentations.

50:23So I'll go straight to the presentation.

50:26Is Susan Watson here?

50:27Is she joining us?

50:28She's joining us by telephone.

50:31Okay.

50:33Hello.

50:35Hi, Ms. Watson.

50:36You know the drill, right?

50:38Five minutes and then there'll be a warning beforehand.

50:42I do and I'm just telling you,

50:43I'm actually driving in Northern Ontario,

50:46so self-service of body.

50:48So let's hope I,

50:50and I just have a very short few things today,

50:52but that's my situation.

50:56Don't be distracted.

50:58Okay.

51:00So I wanna say that I am in favor of moving ahead

51:03with enhanced heritage property protections.

51:08I think it's long overdue,

51:10but I am concerned that it doesn't apply to buildings

51:13which are on the heritage register

51:16that it only applies to designated buildings.

51:20I'm unclear why the cost implications

51:22in the report are none,

51:24because if we're going to have proactive inspection

51:27of heritage buildings,

51:28then that is going to cost money.

51:31I think what is actually critically needed

51:34in addition to the bylaw support today

51:36for heritage building is that we actually need

51:39a comprehensive city-wide vacant buildings registry

51:44like the city of Hamilton has.

51:47In Hamilton, property owners with a vacant building

51:50pay a registration fee to that city,

51:53and then they also pay an annual fee,

51:56which covers the cost of quarterly inspections,

51:59and they're defined for non-compliance.

52:02So I think that such a registry in Guelph

52:04would serve to protect also heritage buildings

52:07which are not designated,

52:09as well as protecting vital housing stock

52:12throughout the city.

52:13So I support the bylaw for you,

52:16but I think a vacant housing registry

52:18is also desperately needed as well.

52:21Thank you.

52:23Okay, thank you.

52:24Are there any questions of the delegation?

52:29Okay, seeing none.

52:31Thank you.

52:32You're welcome.

52:33That's why I say,

52:36okay, so the next delegation is Werner Zimmerman.

52:51Thank you very much, council members,

52:55councillor Downer.

52:57I'm here just representing myself,

52:59but I think I carry the feelings of many others.

53:04First of all, I applaud the bylaw.

53:06I think it's wonderful.

53:08It's great.

53:09But what makes Guelph really unique

53:13is the aspect of the older city,

53:19the architecture,

53:20and the standard of it being maintained.

53:24And just having a standard for heritage buildings,

53:29it sort of forgets about the neighborhoods,

53:32the overall look,

53:34and I think something has to be done to extend that

53:37so that not only a building is maintained,

53:41that's designated as heritage,

53:43but the look of a neighborhood,

53:44whereas sometimes vacant buildings are left,

53:47they're older,

53:48and as they crumble,

53:51they disappear because of neglect.

53:54Something happens to the neighborhood,

53:56to the look of the city.

53:57When we travel,

53:58we often look at the surroundings around us.

54:02We just don't go for one building

54:03or one little unique spot.

54:06And so I just hope in the future

54:08that consideration is given

54:10that this standard is extended in some way

54:17that the uniqueness of neighborhoods

54:20that have sort of a heritage quality to them

54:25is considered, okay?

54:28That's really it.

54:29Thank you.

54:30Okay, thank you.

54:31Are there any questions for Mr. Zemehman?

54:35Okay, thanks.

54:36Okay, thanks, I appreciate.

54:38Okay, would somebody please put the motion on the floor?

54:41Councillor Altsakated by Councillor Seniors' moment

54:49already, right?

54:52And are there any questions or of staff?

54:56We'll go to questions first and then comments.

55:03Okay, Councillor Kerr-Ran.

55:05Yeah, thank you.

55:07Chair Ganners.

55:08This has been on the city's radar

55:12since the amendment to the Heritage Act in I think 2005.

55:16So it's been a long time coming.

55:19So I'm really, really happy to see this come forward.

55:23The delegation who asked about registered properties,

55:26I know we're in this kind of quandary right now

55:28where we have two years,

55:29unless that changes and is extended,

55:31where the heritage register won't exist beyond 20 years.

55:37So I wonder if staff can address kind of that gap

55:44that we're gonna find ourselves in,

55:47where we have identified via the register properties

55:50that are worthy of designation.

55:53We just don't have the capacity to designate them

55:55and how those properties could potentially be added

56:00to this protection by law that we're proposing.

56:03Otherwise they fall under the regular standards

56:05of our property standards as any other property would.

56:08But I do think that the situation

56:10that we have found ourselves in,

56:11which is demolition by neglect,

56:14is more at risk of registered buildings

56:17and not designated buildings.

56:19And can you address how we might fill that gap?

56:25Who's going to answer that question?

56:30Ms. Walkie.

56:31Thank you, Chair Janner.

56:33So at the time of writing the report,

56:35the legislation was that the listed property registry

56:40expired at the end of 2024.

56:42So January 1st, 2025,

56:44it has been extended to January 1st, 2027.

56:47We have only kept the designated property.

56:52There are getting close to 300 of those right now.

56:56If we looked at the listed properties, which is 1700,

57:00then there would be staffing and financial impacts

57:03to that as well.

57:06Suggestion that we add vacant properties,

57:10on the vacant properties that are also

57:13on the heritage register,

57:14is that a possibility and what additional resources

57:17would be needed to inspect and protect those in?

57:25Through the chair to Councillor Caron,

57:29currently right now, any vacant property

57:31that comes to our attention, we are inspecting.

57:34So if a property was on that list

57:39or was not on the list,

57:40if we are identified that it is vacant,

57:43we are doing proactive patrols of it.

57:47Then last but not least,

57:49the bylaw speaks mostly to residential,

57:52but we have other non-residential such as bridges.

57:58Is there a provision for that?

58:01Or again, those would be engineering standards

58:04rather than residential building standards.

58:12Through the chair, currently the focus is on residential,

58:15but it is something we can take away and take a look at.

58:19Okay, great. I'll follow up on that.

58:23Okay, thank you.

58:24Councillor Gibson was next.

58:27I think he had it.

58:27And then Councillor Oak and Councillor Rower.

58:29Thank you, through you, Chair Downer.

58:30So I think I understand the bylaw

58:33as it pertains to designated properties.

58:36And I'm assuming staff have done a calibration

58:38on what that means across the city.

58:40But anytime council now talks about any expansion

58:43of this bylaw to say a registry

58:46or a listed property,

58:48I'm assuming that staff would immediately be able

58:50to help us calibrate that decision-making

58:52in terms of the number of properties that are impacted

58:56or I guess would be wrapped around by this bylaw.

58:59I guess it's always just,

59:01it's always apparent to me that we need to be careful

59:04when we make decisions around council, around heritage,

59:08specifically when we need to understand what that means

59:10in terms of the number of properties.

59:12So our staff able to,

59:14like if council was to make decisive changes

59:18or additions to this bylaw,

59:20would staff be prepared to help us understand the size

59:25and scope of that decision?

59:30Through the Chair, to Councillor Gibson,

59:32we would obviously report back.

59:35Currently we are aware that's approximately 300 properties

59:38that we are proactively inspecting.

59:40So every time that a property is added,

59:42that would become part of that inspection list.

59:46Right, thank you.

59:46And through you, Chair, I did hear the number 1700 though.

59:49Is that the number of properties that are on the registry?

59:52So if we were to look to include the registry properties

59:57on the bylaw, that would be a sizable increase.

1:00:03Through the Chair, to Councillor Gibson, yes.

1:00:06If we were to add that registry,

1:00:08there would be obviously a staffing impact

1:00:10or resource impact to conduct all those inspections.

1:00:13Currently the amount 300 were able to do

1:00:16with existing resources.

1:00:19Right, thank you.

1:00:20And I guess my last question through you, Chair Downer,

1:00:21is that if a decision like that from council

1:00:24was brought forward and tabled,

1:00:26I'm assuming that staff's strong recommendation

1:00:29would be that this would again,

1:00:32it would cause another round of public consultation

1:00:35for this bylaw.

1:00:36Because then all of a sudden we'd go from 300 properties

1:00:38to 1700 properties.

1:00:39That's 1400 more landowners that are unaware

1:00:43that they're potentially impacted by this bylaw.

1:00:45I would assume that staff would request more time

1:00:47to consult public.

1:00:51Through the Chair, to Councillor Gibson, that is correct.

1:00:53We, as part of this review, they were not consulted

1:00:57because they weren't impacted.

1:00:58If they were now to be impacted,

1:00:59we would request to go and seek information

1:01:03from them or input from them.

1:01:05Okay, thank you.

1:01:05I think that's deeply critical to this conversation.

1:01:08Thank you.

1:01:10Okay, thank you.

1:01:11So Councillor Allt.

1:01:13Thank you Chair Downer.

1:01:14And this is just a comment, but I do wanna thank both.

1:01:18Sorry, just questions now.

1:01:19I'm just doing questions.

1:01:20I'll come back to you then for comments.

1:01:23Councillor Goller.

1:01:24Thank you, and through you, Chair Downer.

1:01:27Thank you for bringing the bylaw forward.

1:01:29I do have a question about the increased cost

1:01:33to residents.

1:01:34When we recommend they replicate the original

1:01:38or the day repair rather than replace,

1:01:40sometimes the cost will be higher to do that,

1:01:44you know, the fixing too much original.

1:01:47So is there any provision to effectively reimburse

1:01:52or provide some service support for those property owners?

1:01:54We're saying if you're going to fix your home

1:01:56because it's got a plaque on it,

1:01:58it's going to cost you more than

1:02:01than you would otherwise have to pay.

1:02:03So is there any provision to support

1:02:05with those increased costs?

1:02:13Through the chair to Councillor Goller.

1:02:15So at this point it's, it is really like a maintenance bylaw

1:02:19and we're expecting the maintenance

1:02:20of the heritage attributes on the property.

1:02:22There is nothing in this bylaw to provide funding

1:02:26to repair or replicate heritage attributes.

1:02:32At this point it's the property standards bylaw

1:02:34and can having minimum maintenance for it.

1:02:39Right, so there's no way that they can get

1:02:44reimburse for this work.

1:02:46Okay, is there any work being done to sort of acknowledge

1:02:50that we are asking people to pay more

1:02:53to bring this up to the standard

1:02:54that you know, to maintain the heritage designation?

1:03:00Through the chair to the Councillor

1:03:02as part of the ward West Heritage Conservation District,

1:03:06one of the commitments from that study was to look at

1:03:10if there is an incentive program,

1:03:11if there is an incentive program

1:03:13that would be brought back to council as a whole

1:03:15and if there's heritage incentives,

1:03:16but it's definitely not part of this bylaw at this time.

1:03:19Okay, thank you for that.

1:03:20Thank you chair.

1:03:21Thank you, I just have one question.

1:03:23Do you have a question too?

1:03:24Yes.

1:03:25Councillor Cossin.

1:03:27Yes, through you chair Downer to staff.

1:03:30I have two questions.

1:03:31The first is with regard to a vacant building registry

1:03:34for all of Guelph.

1:03:36This is referring to delegate Watson's statement.

1:03:42My understanding is that we did discuss

1:03:45a vacant building tax.

1:03:49I'm not sure if we have or where we are

1:03:52with the consideration of a citywide

1:03:54vacant building registry.

1:03:56Is this something that you could speak to?

1:04:03Through you chair Downer to Councillor Cossin.

1:04:06The topic of vacant home tax and registry

1:04:09has come before council on a number of occasions.

1:04:11Staff continue to look at ways to manage the data sets.

1:04:15The challenge is the availability of data

1:04:17and the ability to aggregate it

1:04:19and provide you with a comprehensive policy consideration

1:04:23is the challenge.

1:04:24So we are continuing to address that.

1:04:28Okay, thank you.

1:04:28And should we expect some sort of report in the near future?

1:04:34If you chair Downer to a Councillor Cossin,

1:04:35I will confer with my colleagues

1:04:37and see what I can get for an answer

1:04:39as quick as I can for you.

1:04:41Thank you.

1:04:42And my second question is with regard to the mechanism

1:04:45for residents to be able to, you know,

1:04:48if there's a concern with property standards

1:04:50for a heritage building,

1:04:52will that mechanism continue to be through

1:04:54the report a problem app

1:04:56or will there be something separate as a consideration?

1:05:00Through the chair, that is correct.

1:05:02It will go through the report and problem

1:05:04or by phone call to bylaw.

1:05:07Perfect, thank you.

1:05:10Councillor Bousatio, you have a question?

1:05:11Thank you and through the chair,

1:05:13just two quick questions.

1:05:14The first one is some time ago,

1:05:16we talked about the city storage of limestone

1:05:19from heritage or buildings and so on.

1:05:22My question is whether or not that is made available

1:05:25to residents who may need that for building

1:05:28and repair and maintenance.

1:05:29Is there a charge for that or is that a free support?

1:05:38Through the chair to the Councillor.

1:05:39So right now we do work at properties

1:05:41that are on the register for repair and maintenance.

1:05:45Internally, we're also working on a program

1:05:47for the acquisition or disposition

1:05:50of some of those materials as well,

1:05:52but that won't come forward until 2025.

1:05:55Sorry, so currently if I have an old house

1:05:57and I need to replace some stone,

1:05:59is that I understand there's somewhere,

1:06:01some kind of a lot where I can go

1:06:03and people access this, is there a charge for that?

1:06:06There is not a charge if you're designated.

1:06:08We only look at designated properties right now.

1:06:11Thank you and my second question,

1:06:12and I should know this is,

1:06:14if I own a heritage home or a home that's not designated,

1:06:20is there a self designation process that is shorter

1:06:23or anything like that?

1:06:28Through the chair to the Councillor,

1:06:30absolutely call planning at Guelph or assembly planning

1:06:33at guelph.ca in email and we'd be happy

1:06:35to take a look at that.

1:06:36Thank you very much.

1:06:37Thank you, chair.

1:06:39Thank you.

1:06:40So I just have one question that the 300 properties

1:06:46that have the designations,

1:06:48is that, does that include the ones

1:06:49within the heritage district as well?

1:06:55Because basically they're all designated

1:06:57within a heritage district.

1:07:03To chair Downer, so there's an additional 160

1:07:06that are in the existing heritage conservation district.

1:07:09Okay.

1:07:10That are not part of that 300 individual.

1:07:12So there's up to 460 then that are protected

1:07:15through the Pila.

1:07:17Okay, so comments, Councillor Allt.

1:07:19Thank you very much, chair Downer.

1:07:21Just very quick comments, but first of all,

1:07:23I'd like to thank the residents who have been

1:07:25so passionate about this

1:07:27and in particular I'd like to thank Mr. Zimmerman,

1:07:29whom I have had many contacts with

1:07:32over the last 10 years on issues like this.

1:07:36I appreciate especially the notion

1:07:38that there's a requirement of minimal utilities

1:07:41in vacant and or damaged heritage buildings

1:07:44to maintain appropriate heating and ventilation,

1:07:47which will address what Councillor Caron is concerned about,

1:07:50which is demolition, by neglect.

1:07:51And many of us have seen that.

1:07:53Staff, I appreciate what you've done

1:07:55especially Mr. Godfrey through property standards

1:07:58when I've had to call you

1:07:59because of something just like this.

1:08:03Okay, thank you.

1:08:04Are there any other comments?

1:08:05I just want to go to Deputy CAO Lee first.

1:08:09He has something he wants to answer

1:08:12and that'll come to you, Councillor Caron, after that.

1:08:15Thank you, chair Downer.

1:08:16In discussions with my colleagues,

1:08:18the strategy on vacant home tax

1:08:20and the consideration of that topic

1:08:21is coming through our housing affordability strategy.

1:08:23It'll come before council in the coming months.

1:08:26Oh, great. That's good information.

1:08:28Thank you.

1:08:29Councillor Caron.

1:08:31Thanks, I had comments and two additional questions that came up.

1:08:35I just want clarity on the heritage tax relief

1:08:37because that's a policy that we actually have on the books

1:08:39for quite some time.

1:08:41In fact, I think it was a recommendation

1:08:42in Brooklyn and College Hill Conservation District.

1:08:46One of the recommendations was a heritage property tax relief

1:08:49that would address Councillor Goller's question,

1:08:51which is a recognition that if you own a designated property,

1:08:54there's a higher standard of care

1:08:56and a higher standard of potential work that needs

1:09:01and type of work that needs to be done.

1:09:04So I was a little surprised that was coming up

1:09:05as a word-west initiative.

1:09:08The heritage property tax relief

1:09:10has been on the work plan for over a decade.

1:09:15Is that, am I misunderstanding?

1:09:20Perhaps it's with our finance department

1:09:21and not our planning department.

1:09:24Through the chair to the council.

1:09:26So we can take a look at that.

1:09:27My recollection is there is a specific motion

1:09:30tied to the word-west heritage conservation district,

1:09:32but I will double check the wording in the motions

1:09:34and respond to council.

1:09:36Okay.

1:09:37And then another question before my comment is that,

1:09:40it's been brought to my attention

1:09:42by a few designated property owners

1:09:44that any renovations related to the Guelph

1:09:48Greater Green Homes initiative

1:09:54makes it difficult, if not impossible,

1:09:56to replace things like windows and doors

1:10:00to the standard of the designation

1:10:03using products that are not approved on the list

1:10:09in the Green Homes renovation program.

1:10:13Is that something that is currently being reviewed by staff?

1:10:20Or is this outside of the framework of property standards?

1:10:24So for example, broken windows,

1:10:29egress and appropriate replacement doors for heritage

1:10:34that may be part of a designated element on a structure

1:10:37that don't meet the retrofit guidelines

1:10:41that we've established under the Green Homes programs.

1:10:43Is that under review or could it be under review

1:10:46in the future?

1:10:51Through the chair to the council.

1:10:52I'll have to again, double check the bylaw

1:10:55and the Guelph Greener Homes program.

1:10:58We did put specific wording in there

1:10:59for heritage buildings,

1:11:01especially around windows and those items.

1:11:02So I will pull up the requirements

1:11:06for the Guelph Greener Homes program

1:11:08and take a look and send those around.

1:11:10Okay, maybe between now and council,

1:11:14I can do a little bit of homework as well on that.

1:11:19And again, my final comment is that

1:11:20this has been a long time in coming.

1:11:22I am not nearly as concerned about designated properties

1:11:25as I am about properties on the register.

1:11:27So I just want to put that on the record.

1:11:30And I guess more of a public service announcement

1:11:33if there are properties on the register

1:11:37that are deteriorating or that neighbors and citizens

1:11:41have concerns about that are not designated.

1:11:44I encourage you to submit those concerns

1:11:49to our property standards,

1:11:51our standard property standards bylaw,

1:11:54so that they can be further investigated

1:11:56and quickly if Mr. Godfrey can tell citizens

1:12:00who might be watching where to submit those,

1:12:03whether it's bylaw at Guelph or building at Guelph

1:12:07or property at Guelph, bylaw I think.

1:12:15Through the chair, residents can report concerns

1:12:19at bylaw at Guelph.ca or they can report an issue online.

1:12:24There's forms on the city's webpage

1:12:26where they can call bylaw directly.

1:12:28Okay, yes, but how can we help you

1:12:30in the reported problem map

1:12:31or probably to have to the best administrative tool?

1:12:35Thanks so much, Mr. Godfrey.

1:12:38Okay, thank you.

1:12:39Are there any other comments?

1:12:41Okay, seeing none, I will go to the vote.

1:12:44Is there anyone in opposition to the motion?

1:12:50Seeing none, that passes.

1:12:52Thank you.

1:12:54So the next item is the,

1:12:56we have three not-for-profit facility lease renewals.

1:13:02So we have the Guelph Youth Music Center

1:13:05and the Royal City Tennis Club

1:13:09and the Navy League Guelph Branch

1:13:11and we have two delegations

1:13:14on the Guelph Youth Music Center one.

1:13:16So I have Samantha Zimmerman and then Liz Sandals.

1:13:22Or are you coming up together?

1:13:30So you're doing your five minutes together, are you?

1:13:33Okay, and you know that five minutes

1:13:35and then 30 seconds beforehand,

1:13:37there'll be a beep of your warning.

1:13:40Thank you.

1:13:41And you'll be pleased to know

1:13:42that I don't plan to take nearly that long.

1:13:44Okay.

1:13:46So your worship chair, downer, counselors,

1:13:51thank you so much for the opportunity

1:13:53to speak to council

1:13:54on behalf of the Guelph Youth Music Center.

1:13:57I'm speaking to you with my chair of the board

1:14:02of the Guelph Youth Music Center hat on

1:14:04and I'd like to introduce Samantha Zimmerman,

1:14:08who is our executive director of the GYMC.

1:14:12And Dana has provided you with an excellent background note

1:14:18on what's been going on with the GYMC lease.

1:14:22So I'm not going to bore you by repeating that.

1:14:25What I wanted to do was specifically address the issue

1:14:30that is before you, which is the term of the lease.

1:14:34So the old lease that we have come out of during COVID

1:14:39is, was actually a 20 year lease.

1:14:44And in that 20 year lease,

1:14:47which, you know, it started off in clause 2.1,

1:14:52identifying that it was a 20 year lease.

1:14:55And then in clause two sub two,

1:14:57it went on to say,

1:14:59the tenant shall have a right to renew this lease

1:15:04for an additional 10 years

1:15:06on the same terms and conditions as the existing lease.

1:15:10And then in clause 2.3, it went on to say,

1:15:14the lease shall be terminated upon the tenant

1:15:17giving one year written notice.

1:15:21So the,

1:15:24that's how the, that's how the old lease started off.

1:15:27It then went on to become a very odd lease

1:15:31because it turns out that the old lease began

1:15:36before the renovations and rehabilitation

1:15:39of the old building that we're in

1:15:41had actually been completed.

1:15:43So the old lease spends a lot of time talking

1:15:46about the responsibilities of the GYMC

1:15:49to do things like exterior cladding,

1:15:53provide windows, provide a roof,

1:15:58a whole electrical wiring system, plumbing the building.

1:16:02It is not your standard lease.

1:16:04So when the city and GYMC looked down at renewing it

1:16:09for the new lease,

1:16:12we both agreed that the old terms

1:16:15are totally inappropriate.

1:16:17So we've been doing a lot of work to come up

1:16:20with new wording that makes more sense for a,

1:16:24you know, a normal lease.

1:16:25Cause what we used to have was not a normal lease.

1:16:28And I think we're getting down to, you know,

1:16:31the final adjustments to the wording for a new lease.

1:16:36But what has happened in the meantime is I think council

1:16:39has indicated a preference for no more than five year renewals.

1:16:44And we have a clause that says you can renew for 10 years.

1:16:48So quite simply, we are here to ask you

1:16:51to please approve 10 year renewal

1:16:54that we had agreed to 20 or so years ago.

1:16:58So that's what we are here for.

1:17:01If any of you are interested in knowing what we're up to,

1:17:06this is sort of some hot off the press postcards

1:17:09telling you what we do.

1:17:11I'll leave them here if it's okay with councillor Downer.

1:17:15I can get the clerk or somebody to distribute

1:17:18to anyone who is interested,

1:17:20but that gives you a bit of an idea what we do.

1:17:22But Sam and I would be happy to answer

1:17:25any questions you might have.

1:17:27Okay, thank you.

1:17:28Are there any questions of the delegations?

1:17:31Councillor Halt.

1:17:33Thank you very much chair downer.

1:17:34Just a quick question for Ms. Sandals.

1:17:38What I'm getting from what you're saying is

1:17:41that it's new wording, but essentially

1:17:44the substance is the same.

1:17:46You're just having problems with the old wording

1:17:48because it was a fairly convoluted or confusing

1:17:51lease structure, is that correct?

1:17:53I wouldn't even say that the substance is exactly the same

1:17:57because I think it would be fair to say

1:18:00that the city would like to see this read more

1:18:03than like a lease that you have as a standard lease

1:18:07for other properties that you're renting out

1:18:09to nonprofits.

1:18:10So I think the wording will be,

1:18:16it isn't going to look like the old wording,

1:18:19but I think the intent of the wording stays the same.

1:18:23We will continue to operate the building

1:18:26as the Guelph use music center for the sorts of purposes

1:18:30that are covered in this and we'll sort out

1:18:35in the lease who is responsible for what

1:18:37and that's being updated to reflect the current language

1:18:42that you would have for other properties

1:18:47in terms of who's responsible for what.

1:18:49Is it the landlord, that's you or the tenant, that's us.

1:18:52Okay.

1:18:53And if the city staff wants to jump in at some point

1:18:57and correct me, that's fine,

1:18:58but that would be my interpretation.

1:19:01I think I saw Ms. Clark Bush nodding her head.

1:19:04Yes or no?

1:19:05Truth or consequences?

1:19:10Why don't I wait till the,

1:19:13and then the other question, my understanding is,

1:19:16is that you do not wish a five year lease,

1:19:18but if I'm correct, the recommendation in front of us

1:19:20is for a 10 year lease.

1:19:22It is for a 10 year lease, yes.

1:19:24That's why we're here is because we do not want

1:19:27a five year lease, we do want a 10 year lease,

1:19:30very definitely.

1:19:31If for no other reason, aside from the fact that,

1:19:34the old lease says you can renew for 10 years,

1:19:39from a planning point of view as a non-profit

1:19:43and wanting to do some upgrades,

1:19:46it makes much more sense from a business longevity

1:19:50organizational point of view to be able to do that

1:19:53for 10 years.

1:19:55Then seeing that, I'll be happy to move the motion.

1:19:58We're just gonna wait till we have delegations.

1:20:01Are there any other questions of the delegation?

1:20:03Okay, thank you.

1:20:05Thank you very much, Chair.

1:20:08Okay, so Councillor Allt, you wanna put the motions,

1:20:11all three of them on the floor?

1:20:13Okay, seconded by Councillor Goller.

1:20:16Are there any questions of staff?

1:20:18Did you wanna confirm?

1:20:20Shall we ask, you wanna ask a question?

1:20:24And we'll have Deputy CEO,

1:20:26Clark Bush first answer Councillor Allt's question

1:20:30from the delegate.

1:20:31Is that your understanding as well?

1:20:34Through the chair and Ms Evans is coming down,

1:20:35yes, that nothing stated was incorrect,

1:20:37just for clarification.

1:20:39What is before you is a 10 year lease,

1:20:41that does not need to be stated.

1:20:43It is before you because we only have delegated authority

1:20:45to do five years, and so it is before you,

1:20:49so notwithstanding the delegation,

1:20:52it is before you recommended by staff to be a 10 year lease

1:20:54for the Guelph Youth Music Centre.

1:20:55Great, thank you.

1:20:57Okay, Mirka, through you, you had a question?

1:20:58Yeah, thank you, and through you, Chair.

1:21:00Can I just ask through you to Deputy CEO,

1:21:03Clark Bush, that does this mean that the delegated authority

1:21:07is still in place and that this is just a one off,

1:21:11or applying to 10 year renewal of this,

1:21:14you would still have to come back again to council?

1:21:17Through the chair, we have delegated authority

1:21:19for five years for all lease renewals,

1:21:21and that is remaining the same.

1:21:22And so we are before you today with three lease renewals,

1:21:26two that are at 10 years, one that is at 20,

1:21:30which is a bit of a difference

1:21:31because they're not for profit organization,

1:21:33they're not for asset market rent.

1:21:34And so the delegated authority is remaining the same,

1:21:38which is the five year.

1:21:40We bundled all three of these together

1:21:42because they're the only ones that we knew were coming up.

1:21:45And so hopefully we're one and done for this year,

1:21:48and this is the only time that you will see us,

1:21:50but we have left the,

1:21:52we have not brought forward a recommended change

1:21:54to the delegated authority at this time.

1:21:57Okay, and you answered the next part of my question,

1:21:59so thank you very much.

1:22:01Great.

1:22:02Are there any other questions?

1:22:04Any comments?

1:22:05Great, thank you.

1:22:06So I'll go to the vote.

1:22:09Is there anyone opposed to the motions?

1:22:13That passes.

1:22:14Thank you.

1:22:17So we're gonna go on to 7.3,

1:22:20the light pollution bylaw review.

1:22:26And we have a delegation from Dennis Shearer,

1:22:30who also has sent in correspondence.

1:22:33So if Dennis wants to come up to the podium.

1:22:42Good noon, Mr. Mayor,

1:22:43ladies and gentlemen of the council and staff.

1:22:46I'm here in support of the light bylaw

1:22:50that you would like to bring in.

1:22:52And for several reasons, excessive lighting,

1:22:57which I am going through,

1:23:00our family is going through right now.

1:23:02I think there has to be controls over backyard lighting

1:23:05and lighting for such things as solar energized lighting.

1:23:12There's a lot of that going on in the neighborhoods now

1:23:14where yards are being lit up constantly.

1:23:17And there is no time where we're getting a lot of darkness

1:23:21and as well, halogen lights that are being used

1:23:24on driveways, on front porches, and et cetera.

1:23:29And they're being pointed into different residential houses.

1:23:33And that has to be put under control.

1:23:35And I'm suggesting with that,

1:23:37that possibly the halogen lighting used to light

1:23:42these various places go on motion detectors

1:23:48where people have access to the property,

1:23:52the light comes on when they leave, the light goes off.

1:23:54So it's not constantly in other people's eyes.

1:23:58We're going through a situation right now in our neighborhood.

1:24:01My neighbor has a constant lighting situation in his backyard

1:24:05where his whole backyard is lit up.

1:24:08And it's kind of a, some kind of a ritual thing that he's doing.

1:24:13I've gone over constantly.

1:24:14I think I sent a picture in.

1:24:17I don't know if somebody has that to put up on the board

1:24:20just to give you an example of what we're going through.

1:24:23And I'm sure other people are.

1:24:24And if you look at that, this is what we stare at 24 seven.

1:24:29As soon as it gets dark, he has his light set to go on

1:24:32at seven o'clock and he has them set to go off

1:24:35at one o'clock in the morning.

1:24:37And I asked him if he could change that

1:24:39because we cannot keep our blinds open.

1:24:42We're distracted by this all the time.

1:24:44And he just said, no, he won't do it.

1:24:48I've gone to council where I'd not council.

1:24:51I'm sorry, I've gone to city hall

1:24:52and I've gone to the bylaw officers.

1:24:56And they said there's absolutely nothing

1:24:58that can be done about this because there's no bylaw

1:25:00right now to control excessive lighting in this city.

1:25:04And I've had our counselors drive by.

1:25:07I talked to counselor, Kate and then top counselor Gibson.

1:25:11And I believe they've both gone by to observe what's going on

1:25:15and they know what's happening here.

1:25:17So we're not the only people going through this.

1:25:20I'm sure I've driven around the city

1:25:22and seen excessive lighting in other places.

1:25:24And I hope you will take this into consideration

1:25:27and put something in so that we can control this

1:25:30and have this stopped.

1:25:32Thank you.

1:25:33Okay, thank you.

1:25:34Are there any questions at council Gibson?

1:25:37Yeah, thank you through your chair, Daner.

1:25:39And thank you, Mr. Shearer for coming forward.

1:25:41You've been a good advocate on this issue.

1:25:43Appreciate talking to you in the past.

1:25:45I think the word that we're all talking about here

1:25:46is excessive, right?

1:25:49You used a lot of examples, halogen lights timing,

1:25:53but ultimately this comes down to the term excessive

1:25:56and trying to find the definition of what that means.

1:25:59Is that your intention as well?

1:26:02Yes, but I don't think we should have any kind of lighting

1:26:05that's going to interfere with lifestyle and comfort.

1:26:09We're staring at this all the time.

1:26:11I don't think we should have to have lights in our eyes 24 seven

1:26:15when we got our blinds open.

1:26:17And the answer I get from my neighbors

1:26:19or whoever's ever involved in this,

1:26:21they just say shut your blinds, it's nighttime.

1:26:23Well, there's other aspects to this as well.

1:26:27You got to consider wildlife.

1:26:29You got to consider nocturnal animals.

1:26:31They need darkness.

1:26:33Birds that nest or rest in the day or in the evening,

1:26:37they need darkness.

1:26:39And we're not getting any of this.

1:26:40We're getting lights all over the place now.

1:26:42And especially one thing that's coming up a lot

1:26:45is the solar energy lighting.

1:26:47If you drive around the city now,

1:26:48you can see decorative lighting all over.

1:26:51And there's just no time

1:26:53where we're actually getting any kind of darkness.

1:26:56But I think this has to be put under control.

1:27:01And I think it has to have quite a restriction on it.

1:27:06Well, it's a good conversation to have.

1:27:07Thank you.

1:27:10Thank you.

1:27:11Are there any other questions?

1:27:12Thank you for coming up.

1:27:14Thank you.

1:27:15Oh, sorry, Councillor Billings has a question.

1:27:17Mr. Scher, sorry.

1:27:19And then Councillor.

1:27:20It's gonna be for staff, Madam Chair.

1:27:22Oh, okay.

1:27:24Sorry.

1:27:25Okay.

1:27:27Could somebody put the motions on the floor first?

1:27:30Councillor Claesden, seconded by Councillor Caton.

1:27:36And we have a question from Councillor Billings.

1:27:40And then Caten and then Claesden.

1:27:42Okay.

1:27:43So through you, Madam Chair, to staff,

1:27:45it's, I agree we need to buy a lot.

1:27:48And the second clause I agree with.

1:27:50The first clause though,

1:27:52it doesn't speak to excessive lighting.

1:27:55It speaks to prohibiting light generated from fixtures,

1:27:59from trespassing from one property to another.

1:28:03But when you're dealing with, say, townhome semis,

1:28:07is that not virtually impossible?

1:28:09Or if you could expand on your meaning

1:28:11because prohibiting is prohibiting,

1:28:14that's not talking about excessive lighting.

1:28:22Through Chair Downer to Councillor Billings.

1:28:25In regards to the question,

1:28:27when the amendment to the property standards by-law

1:28:30or if a new by-law is required is drafted,

1:28:33the definition of trespass would be any unusual quantity

1:28:37or excessive amount of light

1:28:38that is trespassing on one property to another.

1:28:41Wouldn't it be excessive?

1:28:45Not in regards to that.

1:28:46Okay.

1:28:47So then through you, Madam Chair, then,

1:28:49is like, are you thinking like we'll be measuring this?

1:28:52Like by lumens?

1:28:54Or like, how do you quantify and qualify this?

1:29:01Through Chair Downer to Councillor Billings,

1:29:04depending on how the by-law is drafted

1:29:07and within put from legal and that,

1:29:09we would look at how the enforcement would take place.

1:29:12However, if we look at noise as an example,

1:29:16right now, music is allowed.

1:29:19You're allowed to have music.

1:29:20And when it gets to an excessive amount,

1:29:22is that's when we'll enforce it.

1:29:25So similarly, is how we would deal with light trespass

1:29:29is that if it was excessive in nature

1:29:33and if you think about how staff enforce noise,

1:29:36that would relate the same.

1:29:39The tools in which we use to enforce

1:29:41would depend on how the by-law was actually written.

1:29:44So through you, Madam Chair,

1:29:46given everything that you stated,

1:29:48then you're still agreeing that this is,

1:29:53because in the clause it says prohibiting.

1:29:56So you still say that's the proper verbiage to use

1:30:00in this clause?

1:30:04Through Chair Downer to Councillor Billings,

1:30:07the intent is to prohibit excessive light.

1:30:13If council chooses, and amendment could be made

1:30:17to change prohibit to regulate,

1:30:20if council chooses,

1:30:21but the intent is to prohibit excessive light.

1:30:25Okay, and then also the delegate brought up

1:30:28the decorative lighting.

1:30:29So decorative lighting, Christmas tree lighting,

1:30:32Christmas tree lights, so on.

1:30:34Are there going to be exemptions with respect to that?

1:30:42Through Chair Downer to Councillor Billings.

1:30:44In regards to this, the first clause is regarding,

1:30:48the first recommendation in the report

1:30:50is regarding light trespass,

1:30:51from light coming from one property to another.

1:30:54The second is actually dealing with light pollution itself,

1:30:58and the intent is that we would provide information

1:31:01to residents on how they can reduce the light

1:31:05on their property, in suggestions that,

1:31:09with regards to decorative lighting and such,

1:31:13provided it's not excessive and not trespassing,

1:31:16then it wouldn't be a violation or a concern.

1:31:21Okay, and then last question,

1:31:23given everything that you've said,

1:31:25so we're not talking about normal light fixtures

1:31:28that are part of the soffits then.

1:31:35Through you, Chair Downer, to Councillor Billings,

1:31:37again, if the light is not excessive,

1:31:40then it wouldn't be considered trespassing.

1:31:42And most soffit lighting, for the most part, aims down,

1:31:46and I look to Mr. Parr, who's done some work on that,

1:31:51and he agrees.

1:31:53Okay, thanks for the clarity, Mr. Godfrey.

1:31:57Okay, thank you.

1:31:58Councillor Caton.

1:32:01I was naming.

1:32:01I have you down.

1:32:02Yep, go ahead.

1:32:05Thank you, through you, Chair.

1:32:06I was mostly looking to move the motion,

1:32:08but if you have time for comments,

1:32:09I'll do one of those now.

1:32:13Sorry, but what was your question?

1:32:15I was looking to move the motion when I raised my hand,

1:32:17so I wasn't asking for a question,

1:32:19but if you have time for comments, I can do one of those.

1:32:23I think that we moved it already.

1:32:25It's already been moved.

1:32:26Yes, but that's why I raised my hand.

1:32:31Oh, so you don't have a question?

1:32:33No.

1:32:34Okay, great, thanks.

1:32:36Sorry, okay.

1:32:37Now, Councillor Klassen and Koran, no work.

1:32:41No question?

1:32:42Okay, Councillor Caron.

1:32:47One of the most significant areas of light trespass

1:32:50that was certainly part of the bilateral review

1:32:52is parking lots, massive parking lots,

1:32:54things like the wood lawn, the auto mall,

1:33:00shopping malls, that kind of thing.

1:33:03Given that the actual fixtures

1:33:08that are part of those assemblies

1:33:11are large, intentional fixtures

1:33:17that cover a wide area,

1:33:19I'm thinking as well of schools.

1:33:21We have our school boards that light up

1:33:23the exterior of their schools at night.

1:33:28There may be major expenditures for completely retrofitting,

1:33:32and I know that our past practice in bylaws

1:33:36has always been to grandfather anything that's existing.

1:33:40If retrofits are required for some of these large scale

1:33:44light pollution emitters,

1:33:46is grandfathering being considered

1:33:49when the bylaw is created,

1:33:53or has that been discussed at the staff level yet?

1:34:00It's true, Chair Downer to Councillor Caron.

1:34:04So just to clarify,

1:34:11recommendation one is regarding light

1:34:13that's from one property onto another property.

1:34:16Currently there's already regulations

1:34:18that regulate that, prohibit that,

1:34:21when it shines into someone's window.

1:34:23So we're extending that to say

1:34:25from one property to another.

1:34:26So there wouldn't be any grandfathering

1:34:29in that section right now.

1:34:31With respect to the second section regarding light pollution

1:34:36on how property owners can reduce their impact,

1:34:40we're recommending guidelines on that.

1:34:42And in five years, we would look at it

1:34:45and see how have we improved,

1:34:47and we would report back to council

1:34:48and say, yeah, the guidelines have worked,

1:34:50or no, we need to take it to the next step

1:34:52and look at a bylaw that,

1:34:54or council consider regulations regarding light pollution

1:34:58on one's property.

1:35:00So with respect to those properties,

1:35:02provided that the light is kept onto their property,

1:35:06there's no restriction on how bright it can be right now,

1:35:10or being proposed, we'll provide guidelines

1:35:13as to if they want to change it to dark skies types fixtures.

1:35:18But the idea is that we're just concerned at this point

1:35:21with trespassing of light from one property to the other.

1:35:24Okay, that's fine.

1:35:25But one of the solutions to the large emitters,

1:35:28like institutional and industrial and commercial,

1:35:33would be timers rather than...

1:35:37Through you, chair, downer to Councillor Caron,

1:35:44I'll ask Mr. Parr who's done a lot of research

1:35:48on the options regarding...

1:35:50Timers were motion activated,

1:35:54because I think the light pollution,

1:35:57there is being framed as security measures.

1:36:00And I think that there are other alternatives

1:36:02to 24 hour bright lighting

1:36:05when it comes to security.

1:36:07So I just want to ensure that as if we move this forward,

1:36:10that there's gonna be alternatives for the large emitters.

1:36:15Thank you very much for the question.

1:36:17And through the chair to Councillor,

1:36:20underneath today's recommendations,

1:36:23number one, we'll deal with trespass.

1:36:25So a couple of easy ways of dealing with trespass

1:36:28that our owner could do would be installing

1:36:30cutoff, full cutoff shades to the light.

1:36:35It's a simple addition to the outside

1:36:37that prevents it from leaving the property.

1:36:39In terms of dealing with the overall light pollution,

1:36:41which refers to recommendation two,

1:36:43they are just guidelines about how residents

1:36:46can protect the night sky through initiatives

1:36:49that they take on themselves.

1:36:51It wouldn't be any regulation put forward

1:36:54by the city at this point.

1:36:57But it could include timers and other ways of reducing it.

1:37:01And we would put those in the recommendations.

1:37:04We would work with those large light pollution areas.

1:37:08Okay, lastly, just a comment, and that is, again,

1:37:12thank you for bringing this forward.

1:37:13And then I was one of the strong advocates

1:37:15when this was proposed as part of our bylaw review.

1:37:17There are mountains and mountains of evidence and data

1:37:21about health and wellbeing of humans and wildlife

1:37:26when it comes to light pollution.

1:37:29I've noticed over the past several decades

1:37:32the problem just keeps getting brighter, brighter, brighter.

1:37:36And now's the time with new technologies

1:37:40to be able to address it.

1:37:41Thanks.

1:37:43Okay, thank you.

1:37:44A counselor of work and then counselor Gibson,

1:37:46I believe had a question as well.

1:37:49Thank you, Chair Downer.

1:37:50I've got a few questions.

1:37:51So through you to staff.

1:37:53Wonder if you can comment on delegates' expectations, right?

1:37:59So if I read the bylaw properly

1:38:01and I look at the photo,

1:38:02this intention is like somebody shining a bright light

1:38:06into your backyard that doesn't hit a window.

1:38:09But the photo that we got is across the street, it's bright,

1:38:13there's no question,

1:38:16I don't see light trespass onto this delegates' property.

1:38:20So I just want people to understand

1:38:22what this bylaw can do.

1:38:25If you find that your neighbor has way too many lights on,

1:38:29this bylaw, unless that light trespass

1:38:31is onto your property, won't do anything.

1:38:33Is that correct?

1:38:36Through Chair Downer to Counselor Rourke, that is correct.

1:38:38So we're only dealing with light trespass,

1:38:41we're hopeful that residents explore the guidelines

1:38:44and look at means to reduce their impact.

1:38:47However, under the current recommendations,

1:38:51there is no enforcement of that situation.

1:38:55Okay, thanks.

1:38:55So through you, Chair Downer.

1:38:57So somebody would call bylaw and say

1:38:59there's excessive lighting across the street

1:39:01or a couple doors down,

1:39:03and then bylaw could go and provide some information

1:39:06about different fixtures that might be less polluting, right?

1:39:12But the person doesn't have to do anything

1:39:14if they don't want to, is that right?

1:39:16Through Chair Downer to Counselor Rourke, that is correct.

1:39:19We would provide education, but there would be no enforcement.

1:39:22Okay, so I'm just, I just want to set people's expectations

1:39:25that this is not going to be the be all and all

1:39:29on light trespass or light pollution.

1:39:31Okay.

1:39:34So I had a question through you, Chair Downer,

1:39:37about site plan.

1:39:38So the report talks about there are things

1:39:42that planning and building does with large developments now,

1:39:46perhaps not before, but now,

1:39:48in terms of making sure the fixtures point

1:39:50towards the ground and not towards the sky.

1:39:54But new legislation removes site plan

1:39:56for developments less than 10 units.

1:39:58And so is there still that, I mean,

1:40:02does this rule still apply to those new developments?

1:40:08Through Chair Downer to Counselor Rourke,

1:40:10if it doesn't qualify, if it's not captured

1:40:13under the site plan, then it wouldn't be enforceable.

1:40:16But again, we would use the guidelines

1:40:17to provide the information, but it would not be enforceable.

1:40:21Light trespass would still exist

1:40:23from that multi-unit property onto the neighboring,

1:40:26but within it, there would be no requirement

1:40:32to comply with the standards under planning.

1:40:37Okay.

1:40:39And through you, Chair Downer,

1:40:40I'm just would like an understanding

1:40:42of what the enforcement will look like.

1:40:46Is it like all of our other bi...

1:40:47Because I'm trying in my mind to prioritize

1:40:50all of the bi-law work, right?

1:40:51That we want and that we ask bi-law to do.

1:40:54So what would enforcement look like

1:40:57and what sorts of efforts will be put towards education

1:41:00on this one versus other bi-laws?

1:41:05Through Chair Downer to Counselor Rourke,

1:41:07with respect to how enforcement will take place

1:41:10as it is now with light trespassing to windows

1:41:12that would be enforced on a complaint basis,

1:41:16I believe on average, we probably receive currently

1:41:19about 30 to 50 calls per year,

1:41:22depending on the year about light trespass.

1:41:24So that's kind of what we'd be looking at.

1:41:29Normally, as with any bi-law, we provide education

1:41:32and we're hopeful that resolves it first

1:41:34and we're usually successful in that.

1:41:36With regards to information,

1:41:39we'll put information on the webpage.

1:41:41We'll provide just general information

1:41:44on how residents can reduce light pollution.

1:41:48We're looking at some information

1:41:51to provide owners of properties on the various bi-laws

1:41:54so that would be included in this one.

1:41:57Okay, thanks.

1:41:57And my last question through you, Chair Downer,

1:41:59is with respect to parking lot, for example,

1:42:02at Clarenc Gordyn, are we having conversations

1:42:05proactively with the owners of those plazas regarding

1:42:09how we can continue to have safety

1:42:10in the parking lot at night,

1:42:11but perhaps less, you know, more downward lighting

1:42:15and less upward lighting?

1:42:17Are we proactive on that?

1:42:19Through Chair Downer to Councillor Roark,

1:42:22we are providing information, we're not proactive,

1:42:24so we're more reactive, so if we have a concern,

1:42:27we'll inform them as with any issue,

1:42:30we'll inform them and provide them options.

1:42:33But we're not proactively looking for that.

1:42:36Okay, so just to finish that thought

1:42:38through you, Chair Downer,

1:42:39so it's been identified in this report,

1:42:41there's a couple of hotspots.

1:42:42Does that trigger action now from bi-law

1:42:45to go and speak to those property owners

1:42:48to outline a concern?

1:42:52Through you, Chair Downer to Councillor Roark,

1:42:55as we currently enforce it is on a complaint basis,

1:42:58so we would need a complaint from a resident

1:43:01that is concerned with the lighting

1:43:02and then we would go out and investigate it.

1:43:04We would provide information, general guidelines

1:43:07on again how residents can reduce light pollution,

1:43:11but for regarding light trespass,

1:43:13it would need to be a complaint

1:43:15from the neighboring property.

1:43:17Okay, just a comment, Chair Downer?

1:43:22So yeah, there are lots of other by-laws

1:43:26where I'd like to see more proactive enforcement

1:43:28and that kind of stuff,

1:43:29but I will say I have had calls from people

1:43:32where neighbors got a light shining directly

1:43:34into a backyard, directly onto a hot tub,

1:43:37directly onto a space where they like to hang out at night

1:43:40and expect some kind of privacy.

1:43:41So I do think this helps to address that,

1:43:44not fully, I regret for all the neighbors,

1:43:47but the next one I'd like to see

1:43:50is around security cameras and video cameras, as you know,

1:43:53because there's some of that going on too, thanks.

1:43:57Okay, thank you.

1:43:58Councillor Gibson.

1:44:00Yes, thank you through you, Chair Downer.

1:44:02I just wanted to gauge staff,

1:44:04maybe the research they've done today,

1:44:05Mr. Parr, Mr. Godfrey,

1:44:07on your confidence that we can find the balance.

1:44:11I think of some of the greatest times of the year

1:44:14for my family that's Christmas, others is Halloween,

1:44:17Diwali, maybe perhaps Chinese New Year,

1:44:20just encouraging that joy that happens

1:44:22across the community through lighting.

1:44:24And just, I wouldn't want to have,

1:44:27that would be the worst thing actually,

1:44:28we'd need to have bylaw being called on people

1:44:30because of their celebratory lights during festivals

1:44:33and during special times of the year

1:44:35for them and their family.

1:44:36So I guess I just wanted to, I do want the enforcement,

1:44:39I think the floodlights into backyards

1:44:41and the floodlights on walkways is something

1:44:43that we should be bringing some regulation to,

1:44:46but I just, again, I wanted to hear from staff

1:44:48that they're confident that that proactivity

1:44:52in terms of mitigating and minimizing light pollution

1:44:55would kind of, we wouldn't find ourselves

1:44:58policing holiday lighting.

1:45:01But that would just be a wet blanket on the community

1:45:05during what is supposed to be really enjoyable times.

1:45:11Through the Chair to Councillor Gibson,

1:45:13thank you very much for the question.

1:45:15Underneath the recommendations provided,

1:45:18holiday lighting and other culture-based lighting,

1:45:21as long as it doesn't trespass

1:45:23in an unusual and excessive way,

1:45:26it would not be underneath this bylaw.

1:45:28So a house that lights up their property

1:45:32with Christmas lights or however they want to celebrate,

1:45:36there should be no impact to that.

1:45:38And even in some very strict dark sky guidelines

1:45:41underneath other cities,

1:45:42there are exemptions for holiday lights.

1:45:46Thank you, that's great to know.

1:45:48The other, the other last and last question I have is,

1:45:50in some cases, some cases, not all cases,

1:45:53we have used lighting on a temporary basis

1:45:56in some of our East End parks anyway

1:45:58to prevent behaviors that we would not otherwise want.

1:46:02After night sky in our parks,

1:46:05I'm not singling at our youth for any other reason,

1:46:07but sometimes these lights are beneficial in parking lots,

1:46:12in playgrounds, and they come around temporarily.

1:46:16Would that be a bit of a carve out opportunity

1:46:18where behaviors needed to be enlightened through lighting?

1:46:25Could the bylaw still accommodate those instances?

1:46:31Through chair to the Councillor,

1:46:34the bylaw itself once written will have exemptions

1:46:37for city-based safety measures,

1:46:40such as lighting, street lights,

1:46:42and other safety-based lighting throughout the city.

1:46:47Okay, I'm sure the reasons why we've used lighting

1:46:49in the East End on our parks is related to safety

1:46:52in many cases, so I appreciate it.

1:46:56Okay, thank you.

1:46:57Are there any more questions or comments?

1:47:02Okay, seeing none, I, sorry.

1:47:06Okay, Councillor Billings.

1:47:09Madam Chair, I just think it's fair.

1:47:14I want to move an amendment instead of prohibiting.

1:47:16I wanted to put what staff said, which is regulating,

1:47:19because all of their answers to our questions

1:47:23were about excessive lighting.

1:47:26So I don't want to mislead anyone.

1:47:29I want to be transparent that what we're doing

1:47:31is regulating light generated from fixtures,

1:47:35from trespassing from one property to another.

1:47:38So my amendment would be regulating instead of prohibiting.

1:47:48And I do not know if I have a seconder.

1:47:50Yes, Councillor Werker has agreed to second that.

1:47:55Are there any questions, Councillor Goller?

1:48:00Through you, Chair Downer,

1:48:03could I ask for staff to comment under thoughts

1:48:05on the change of wording?

1:48:10Through you, Councillor Chair,

1:48:11there's no concern from staff.

1:48:17Okay, no concerns.

1:48:17Are there any other questions or comments on the amendment?

1:48:21Can we put the amendment up on the screen?

1:48:25Just so that everybody sees it.

1:48:28Just give us a moment here, Chair Downer.

1:48:32We think we have what was expected.

1:48:34We'll put it up there and maybe the mover can comment on

1:48:38if this is what they're intent.

1:48:39I think it's just replacing the word

1:48:41prohibiting with regulating.

1:48:43Yeah, just give us one moment, thank you.

1:49:00Thank you for that time.

1:49:03Hopefully once we get this up on screen,

1:49:06the mover can confirm this amendment, please.

1:49:11Councillor Billings, is that what you wanted?

1:49:13Yes.

1:49:14Do you see that?

1:49:15Yes, that's fair because that's actually what we are doing.

1:49:20Okay, I just wanted to make sure we had it up on the screen.

1:49:23Okay, so no comments or more questions on that.

1:49:28Is anyone, I'll go to the vote.

1:49:30Is anyone opposed?

1:49:33Seeing none, that passes.

1:49:35We'll go to the full motion now as amended.

1:49:41Is there any comment, questions?

1:49:44Okay, is anyone opposed?

1:49:47Okay, that passes.

1:49:50Thank you.

1:49:51And I'm going to hand the chair back over

1:49:54to Mayor Guthrie for the governance.

1:49:58Okay, we're gonna take a five minute break first.

1:57:53All right, great, I'll just call the meeting back to order.

1:57:55Thank you to Chair Downer for her section being done

1:57:58and now over to me under governance.

1:58:01The first one, because we have some delegations,

1:58:05yes, is going to be the mayoral direction B3, it's called,

1:58:10but it is strategic real estate partnerships

1:58:12on underutilized city owned assets.

1:58:14We're gonna have a presentation from staff

1:58:17and then we'll get into some of the delegations

1:58:19that have come forward.

1:58:20So I'll turn it over to staff at this point.

1:58:33Okay, thank you, Mr. Mayor.

1:58:35Good afternoon, Mayor, Council, staff,

1:58:37and members of the public.

1:58:39I'm James Goodrum, general manager

1:58:40of the Economic Development and Tourism Department.

1:58:43The Realty Services Division and Strategic Property file

1:58:46falls within my department.

1:58:49So joining me today is Luke Jefferson,

1:58:50our city's strategic property advisor.

1:58:53But before Luke joins us and walks you through

1:58:55some of the key facts about the two potential sites

1:58:58before you today,

1:58:59I just wanna take a few moments to provide some context.

1:59:03So we as staff, we understand that you're faced

1:59:06with tough decisions as Guelph,

1:59:07like many other communities across Canada,

1:59:10are trying to respond to a housing affordability crisis.

1:59:14We also recognize that the city needs

1:59:16additional park land, not less.

1:59:19And yet, what is before you today is an option

1:59:21to remove some park land in an effort

1:59:23to respond to the housing crisis.

1:59:26This is definitely, I can assure you,

1:59:28not where staff thought we'd end up

1:59:30when we started this exercise.

1:59:32And as staff, we too are torn on this as well.

1:59:35But given the urgency to the housing crisis,

1:59:38this report's been brought forward to you today

1:59:41to respond to the mayor oral direction

1:59:43in which Mayor Guthrie recognizes

1:59:45that difficult times may call for difficult decisions

1:59:48and taking action on this file is paramount.

1:59:52So staff reviewed over 30 city-owned sites.

1:59:55We also met with the province to understand

1:59:56they had any available lands or underutilized sites

1:59:59of which they do not.

2:00:01We looked at all the sites, the city and the province owns

2:00:04and reviewed all the information that was readily available.

2:00:09But we did have a limited timeframe.

2:00:11So Luke's gonna get into the additional details.

2:00:15But what we want you to know is sometimes

2:00:17what you see as a parking lot has made your sanitary

2:00:20or water infrastructure beneath it.

2:00:23Or perhaps there's an environmental condition

2:00:25that requires more study.

2:00:27There may be restrictive covenants registered on title

2:00:29that require more research.

2:00:32Or it could simply be that there's no infrastructure

2:00:34capacity at that location to support additional development.

2:00:38So that's really how staff landed on these two sites

2:00:41that are before you today.

2:00:43Should you choose to move forward with a site or sites

2:00:45as outlined in the report, there's more work to be done.

2:00:49We have to undertake geotechnical investigations

2:00:52along with that minimum of phase one environmental

2:00:55as well as property surveys and reviewing

2:00:58what planning applications would be required.

2:01:01At the same time, we'd be developing a request

2:01:04for expressions of interest.

2:01:06And to be clear, we'd be recommending that the requirement

2:01:09would be for affordable medium density residential units,

2:01:12not single family homes, not duplexes, not town homes

2:01:17unless it was of a higher density.

2:01:20And not condos or markets that would be at market rate

2:01:24so it'd be affordable.

2:01:26And we know from the report, State of Housing and Guelph

2:01:31that we need bachelors in single bedroom apartments.

2:01:35So we want to look towards fulfilling that need.

2:01:38And the goal would be for the city to provide the land

2:01:42in addition to the development charge exemptions

2:01:44as per Bill 185, really to provide an opportunity

2:01:48for affordable units for a minimum of at least 25 years.

2:01:53So we know that there's a housing crisis in Guelph.

2:01:55And in addition to what's before you today,

2:01:57we have many irons in the fire as a staff team.

2:02:01With your direction, we're working on several initiatives

2:02:04utilizing the Housing Accelerator Fund

2:02:07that was recently received by the city.

2:02:09We've been fortunate enough to attract two housing experts

2:02:14to our city team here, Kushla Matthews and Anthony Dolcetti.

2:02:18And they're solely focused on housing issues.

2:02:21In addition to that, we'll be bringing

2:02:22for an affordable housing community improvement plan

2:02:25with financial incentives to council in November.

2:02:29Our planning services team is leading the development

2:02:31of an incentive program for accessory dwelling units

2:02:34and developing a request for proposal

2:02:37for housing, an affordable housing demonstration project.

2:02:41So under your direction, when we leave here today,

2:02:43we'll continue our inventory of city-owned lands

2:02:46with additional analysis and review.

2:02:48And we hope to complete that work by the end of the year

2:02:50with a subsequent report to council.

2:02:53So I'm gonna turn it over to Luke now to walk you through

2:02:55what we've done to date.

2:03:11Thank you, Garrett.

2:03:12And thank you, James.

2:03:13My name is Luke Jefferson.

2:03:14I am the Strategic Property Advisor here at the city of Guelph.

2:03:18On February 28th, 2024,

2:03:21staff received Merrill Direction B3,

2:03:24Strategic Real Estate Partnerships

2:03:25on Underutilized City-Own Assets.

2:03:28The following is a brief overview of the report

2:03:30and findings to date.

2:03:35Garrett, would you mind advancing that slide?

2:03:40This is a map that shows preliminary information

2:03:43on the city of Guelph's land holdings.

2:03:46This will be refined and reported to council in Q1, 2025.

2:03:50This work will be a deeper dive into city assets

2:03:53and will include an evaluation framework

2:03:56which will help identify sites

2:03:58for future development of city services

2:04:01and sites that could be candidates

2:04:03for residential development.

2:04:05Regarding the report itself,

2:04:07staff identified sites that would have significant impact

2:04:10to core service levels and eliminated them

2:04:12from consideration for this level of review.

2:04:16These are sites that if temporarily closed or impacted

2:04:19would create safety or significant community impacts.

2:04:23These typically include frontline operational sites

2:04:26like waste management, transit,

2:04:28emergency services and operations.

2:04:31These were all eliminated from consideration.

2:04:42When looking at the broad inventory

2:04:44and evaluating the direction,

2:04:45there are three key facts that are important to consider

2:04:48if we want to achieve affordable and fast construction.

2:04:54Number one is affordable rentals

2:04:55require affordable construction.

2:04:58If it is expensive to build, it will be expensive to rent.

2:05:03Density will help affordability.

2:05:05Adjacent development informs density capacity.

2:05:08Sites in low density neighborhoods

2:05:11will have servicing capacity for low density development.

2:05:14If we want affordable housing options,

2:05:16we need to target higher density neighborhoods

2:05:18that have capacity for growth.

2:05:21Number three is technical challenges are solvable.

2:05:24However, they take time and investment.

2:05:27Sites that have technical challenges

2:05:29like what James mentioned,

2:05:30buried infrastructure that have an industrial history,

2:05:33have challenging land designations

2:05:35or other issues that require technical work

2:05:38that will require technical work and will take time.

2:05:41They cannot be developed quickly.

2:05:47So to action the mayoral directive,

2:05:49staff began with parking lot review.

2:05:51This included 14 parking sites

2:05:53with a focus on parking lots

2:05:55that either forecast intensification

2:05:57or appear to be underutilized or underdeveloped.

2:06:01This included all downtown surface parking lots.

2:06:04As James mentioned, many sites are impacted

2:06:07by buried infrastructure

2:06:09that require significant capital investment

2:06:11and time to relocate or have a history of use

2:06:14that requires a record of site condition.

2:06:17Wherever these issues exist,

2:06:19they will take significant capital investment

2:06:21or time to resolve.

2:06:23This does not mean they cannot be developed.

2:06:25It means that they cannot be developed quickly or affordably.

2:06:29These higher costs will be passed on to end renters

2:06:31or buyers and impact affordability.

2:06:35Some city sites may be developable,

2:06:37however, are required to support projects

2:06:39like downtown renewal and cannot be developed

2:06:41without impacting other growth commitments.

2:06:45Other sites are located in low density neighborhoods

2:06:47that have servicing capacity for low density development.

2:06:50This model of development is unlikely to be affordable.

2:06:57So if you go back to the key three facts

2:06:59around affordability and time,

2:07:01it points us to unencumbered green table

2:07:04and development sites.

2:07:06Underutilized parks are the best opportunity

2:07:08to develop affordably and develop quickly.

2:07:12However, development using current parks

2:07:15will result in the permanent loss of parkland.

2:07:18This presents a problem with official plan

2:07:21park service targets.

2:07:22We know that as the city continues to grow,

2:07:25we will face increased park acquisition challenges

2:07:28to meet official plan park targets.

2:07:30This was identified through the Parkland

2:07:32Dedication Bylaw updates,

2:07:34the approval of the park plan

2:07:35and the Parks and Recreation Master Plan

2:07:37and remains true today.

2:07:42Staff have identified two sites

2:07:44that can be developed quickly

2:07:46that have limited technical challenges

2:07:48and have existing servicing capacity

2:07:50to develop for residential use.

2:07:52As per the direction,

2:07:53these are presented to Council for consideration.

2:07:57Site one is a portion of Hugh Guthrie Park

2:07:59fronting onto Enboro Road.

2:08:02This site has no built amenities

2:08:03so there is no impact to park programming.

2:08:07This site can potentially accommodate medium density

2:08:10or about 30 to 40 units.

2:08:12Pending further work as James has outlined.

2:08:15It will result in the loss of several trees

2:08:18which would be dealt with in compliance with city policy.

2:08:21It will also result in the permanent loss

2:08:22of approximately 1.3 acres of parkland at this location.

2:08:31Site two is Sleiman Park.

2:08:34This site is located in a higher density neighborhood

2:08:36and has servicing capacity

2:08:37for medium to high density development,

2:08:39potentially up to 75 units.

2:08:42It will result in the permanent loss

2:08:44of about 1.5 acres of parkland

2:08:46and the loss of a baseball diamond.

2:08:49The development of a higher density site

2:08:51will come with a slightly higher community impact.

2:08:54The baseball diamond is currently booked

2:08:55about two nights a week

2:08:57and also sees casual non-booked usage

2:08:59by the local neighborhood.

2:09:02If this baseball diamond is taken offline

2:09:04to be developed for housing,

2:09:06park staff would work with any affected user group

2:09:09to explore relocating the bookings elsewhere.

2:09:16So pending further direction from Council

2:09:18on creating a development site,

2:09:20a park site will require an official plan amendment

2:09:22and rezoning application.

2:09:24Residential development is not permitted

2:09:26by the official plan on park sites.

2:09:29Parks are permitted to be sold under section 42

2:09:32of the Planning Act.

2:09:35And as James mentioned previously,

2:09:37a request for expression of interest

2:09:38to the development community

2:09:40for the development of affordable rental units

2:09:42will be issued following the planning approvals.

2:09:46More comprehensive information is included

2:09:48in the Council report.

2:09:49The city will continue to evaluate inventory

2:09:52and present this information to Council in Q1, 2025.

2:09:57This report is recommended for receipt

2:09:59and consideration of Council.

2:10:01Thank you.

2:10:04Thank you both for setting the context

2:10:07and the presentation, appreciate it.

2:10:10We do have a few delegations

2:10:12and so we'll start right away with Alana Hart.

2:10:16And Alana says here you're from the Central Ontario

2:10:21Cooperative Housing Federation.

2:10:23And then in the wings we have Susan Watson

2:10:25on the phone that will be joining us.

2:10:28You have up to five minutes.

2:10:29So you'll hear a chime at the four minute 30 second mark

2:10:32as a warning that you have 30 seconds left

2:10:34and just stick around in case there's any questions, okay?

2:10:36But I'll turn the mic over to you, go right ahead.

2:10:39Thank you so much.

2:10:40Thank you, Council.

2:10:41Thank you for this opportunity.

2:10:42Speak to this matter here today.

2:10:44First of all, I wanna commend all Councillors

2:10:47in looking for ways and endeavoring

2:10:49to create more affordable housing in the city of wealth.

2:10:53This is a remarkable time for everyone,

2:10:55particularly since the affordable housing crisis

2:10:57is so apparent and at the forefront of everyone's thoughts.

2:11:01Also, from our point of view, it's also a remarkable time

2:11:04because the federal government did release $1.5 billion

2:11:08for cooperative development, which provides opportunities

2:11:11that we had not seen before.

2:11:12In fact, we have not seen this level of funding

2:11:15for cooperative housing in 30 years or more.

2:11:18So this is the perfect time to be undertaking

2:11:21this type of work and this study.

2:11:22So thank you so much.

2:11:24As Executive Director of the Central Ontario

2:11:25Cooperative Housing Federation,

2:11:27I do wanna speak to a matter that's related to this report

2:11:30and that's in the fact that most or often

2:11:33some affordable housing, but there seems to be

2:11:35a time limit on it, that we say it's 20 years, 10 years,

2:11:3925 years, whatever it may be.

2:11:41So I would encourage everyone here to think about

2:11:43what the impact that will be on the folks

2:11:44who actually move into those buildings,

2:11:46that if you're actually going to build the building,

2:11:48it should be in perpetuity, it should be permanent

2:11:51affordable housing and that's where we come in.

2:11:53Because cooperative housing is a nonprofit housing provider,

2:11:57it's permanent housing.

2:11:59There is no sale, there is no change in the structure,

2:12:03there is no change in the mandate, that's what we do.

2:12:06So Central Ontario, for example,

2:12:08has 42 member organizations.

2:12:11In Guelph we have seven co-ops already

2:12:14and that represents about 500 units,

2:12:16so maybe 750 people.

2:12:20Throughout our entire Federation,

2:12:21which has five different cities in it, it's about 5,000.

2:12:25So we're asking for us at this time, because one,

2:12:29we have access to this funding that is not available

2:12:31to developers, it's not available except to

2:12:35cooperative housing providers and land trusts.

2:12:37So we're looking at co-ops and land trusts,

2:12:39that we would be able to be part of your conversation

2:12:42as you move through this process

2:12:43and maybe have some input and be involved in some way.

2:12:47Two minutes, 54 seconds, how is that?

2:12:51Okay, well, is that your time?

2:12:53Okay, I just wanted to make sure, all right, thank you.

2:12:55Is there any follow-up questions at all?

2:12:57Okay, Councillor Chew and then a work.

2:13:01Thank you, through you Mr. Mayor.

2:13:02Thank you for your delegation.

2:13:04I'm just reading your letter here

2:13:06and you talked about the Housing Now program in Toronto

2:13:09and you mentioned Kingston, Witt,

2:13:11viewer city owned land was utilized for co-op housing.

2:13:17I was wondering if you have any more examples

2:13:18that you could share with us here.

2:13:20I do, in fact.

2:13:21How many would you like?

2:13:22No, okay, so one of the things that we're working on

2:13:25right now, Cochev is working on in collaboration

2:13:28with the County of Brant, is building a new,

2:13:30one of the first, actually it's the first co-op

2:13:33in the County of Brant.

2:13:35That's gonna be 35 units.

2:13:37It's specifically mandated for seniors

2:13:39because we recognize that seniors

2:13:40are particularly at risk at this time

2:13:43and because we recognize that seniors

2:13:44who are currently in the co-op program

2:13:46mean they live in cooperatives now

2:13:49are typically or often are over housed

2:13:51and they can no longer live in those units

2:13:53because they have physical reasons

2:13:55why they can't make those stairs,

2:13:56why they can no longer live comfortably.

2:13:58So with the County of Brant, we're working with them.

2:14:01They have provided the land

2:14:02and we're working through the program

2:14:04to be able to build this new, brand new,

2:14:08cooperative at 50 High Street.

2:14:13Thank you, Councillor O'Rourke, please.

2:14:16Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

2:14:17I've got a couple of questions for the delegate.

2:14:19I moved to Guelph to work for the cooperator

2:14:21so very familiar with the co-op model

2:14:24and think it's certainly part of the solution.

2:14:28The sticking point for us today is gonna be

2:14:30on whether we should use park land for this or not.

2:14:33So our staff just said they're coming back in Q1 2025

2:14:39with more sites potentially.

2:14:42So in the scheme of a development timeline,

2:14:46how critical would those six months be?

2:14:51From my understanding, not as critical as we think,

2:14:54the first window for the program opens

2:14:56July 15th and closes in September

2:14:58with the expectation that we'll see

2:15:00at least a second window in early 2025.

2:15:03So I think that we are still within the timeline

2:15:06to be able to access funding

2:15:07and there's other programs as well.

2:15:10I'm hesitant to speak to the green space

2:15:12because I understand where the debate is going to be.

2:15:16But when I looked at the report,

2:15:17there were a number of other sites and other possibilities

2:15:19that were gonna be part of this report in the end.

2:15:21So where one might be a little more difficult

2:15:25to actually wrap our heads around,

2:15:26the other ones may be a little more agreeable.

2:15:28Right.

2:15:29So through you, Mayor Guthrie.

2:15:33My other question is some folks maybe are not familiar

2:15:36with the co-op model.

2:15:37There's different types of co-ops, worker co-ops, et cetera.

2:15:40There's some very high-end co-ops.

2:15:42Can you help us understand how the co-op model

2:15:45makes the units affordable and perpetuity?

2:15:48Why is that?

2:15:49Sure, thank you.

2:15:54Cooperatives are a mixed community,

2:15:55meaning that the cooperatives are based on a model

2:15:58where some of the units would be subsidized to some degree,

2:16:03meaning they're paying much less

2:16:04than what would be considered affordable rent or market rent.

2:16:07And the rest of the units are also kind of subsidized

2:16:10because in the model, because there's no profit to be made,

2:16:13all of the monies go back into the co-op to work towards

2:16:16operations to do the capital work that's done.

2:16:18So that profit margin doesn't exist,

2:16:21which allows the members, we don't call them tenants,

2:16:24the members to be able to live affordably.

2:16:27So are affordable is probably 80% of average market rent,

2:16:31and that would be the top of what they would pay

2:16:32even if they're not on subsidy.

2:16:34Subsidy's a whole different thing,

2:16:36which provides folks who really cannot afford to live anywhere

2:16:40the opportunity to live in a safe environment.

2:16:43The other thing that the co-op model does,

2:16:45there's seven principles I am not gonna bore you

2:16:47with all of that, sorry.

2:16:49But one of the things it does do is provide community.

2:16:51So when we talk about affordable housing,

2:16:54the other part of the equation that's really important

2:16:56is homes, is these folks will be living in spaces,

2:17:01and clean units, safe units in community,

2:17:04so that they're able to actually,

2:17:05one, be able to have a voice within their community,

2:17:08and autonomy is very important to cooperatives,

2:17:10the model itself is built on that,

2:17:13that the members have a voice,

2:17:14and the members make the decisions, right?

2:17:16They are in effect the landlord,

2:17:19even though there's other, you know,

2:17:20there's board of directors, et cetera, et cetera,

2:17:21it's a non-profit, that's the other part.

2:17:24It's a non-profit, it's a permanent non-profit housing

2:17:28provider, so that's the way that it would work through

2:17:30to say that this would be continuous,

2:17:32it's a permanent solution to the affordable housing issue.

2:17:39Great, thank you, seeing nothing further at this time.

2:17:42Oh, I'm sorry, Councillor Prasad, I apologize, go ahead.

2:17:45Yes, thank you, Elena, for the presentation.

2:17:47I'm extensively immersed in cooperatives.

2:17:50So just a little bit, if you can tell me about your access

2:17:54to the funding, the federal funding,

2:17:56because I've been watching that as well,

2:17:58is that funding for land purchase,

2:18:01or is the model, your housing model,

2:18:05assuming that land is given at below market, or so,

2:18:10and can you talk a little bit about the acquisition of land?

2:18:13So I think in an ideal situation,

2:18:15that the land would be provided,

2:18:17we all would like that, free land is good land,

2:18:19but in the program, it doesn't delineate between development

2:18:23costs, construction costs, and land,

2:18:25so the funding is available for the project as a whole.

2:18:30Thank you.

2:18:33Great, really appreciate your presentation.

2:18:35Thank you so much.

2:18:36Thank you so much.

2:18:38Next is on the phone, Susan Watson,

2:18:41and go right ahead to see if your audio works.

2:18:46Hi, Mayor Guthrie, can you hear me?

2:18:48Yes, you're coming through fine, thank you.

2:18:49I'll turn it over to you.

2:18:52Yeah, let's hope this all serves hold.

2:18:54Mayor Guthrie and members of council,

2:18:57I'm concerned that a housing crisis,

2:18:59which was created by advocating responsibly for housing

2:19:02to the private sector over a 30 year period,

2:19:06is being used as a premise to serve

2:19:07at public assets to developers,

2:19:10whether that's our property tax dollars,

2:19:12subsidizing development charges,

2:19:14giving up our conservation areas or our parks.

2:19:18Clearly the problem is not a shortage of land

2:19:20for housing or city hall bureaucracy.

2:19:23There are almost 6,000 units approved

2:19:26on our short-term horizon.

2:19:27On the long-term horizon,

2:19:29we have an almost 18-year supply of land

2:19:31for housing.

2:19:34What we do have is an abject failure of the private sector

2:19:37to deliver affordable housing.

2:19:39And we have a lack of vision and a dress of foresight

2:19:41on the part of city hall.

2:19:44A former council under Mayor Guthrie

2:19:47dropped the ball with the opportunity

2:19:48to acquire the turf assets to choose in the reformatory.

2:19:52And we could have had land for affordable housing,

2:19:54parks, and a hospital.

2:19:57And where is city hall with the 20 acres of GRCA land

2:20:01in the NISCA area, which is owned for housing

2:20:03and is on the cusp of being declared surplus?

2:20:07City of 12 tax dollars covered 40%

2:20:11of the entire NISCA land purchased in 1977.

2:20:15So 40% of that 28 per parcel is eight hectares,

2:20:20or eight acres of land,

2:20:22which is likely now worth $8 million in today's dollars.

2:20:28And that's land that we pay for.

2:20:31Is city hall going to sleepwalk through this entire process

2:20:34and let that public land end up in the hands of developers

2:20:38who is protecting our interest and our investment?

2:20:43If the issue is housing supply,

2:20:45why are we not bringing in a vacancy tax

2:20:48like other cities have done?

2:20:50Why are we not combining housing and parking

2:20:53along with a recryan- combining housing with parking

2:20:56and the reclamation center

2:20:58on top of the South End Recreation Center?

2:21:02I'm concerned that after 10 years of governing,

2:21:06the mayor appears unable to hold the big picture.

2:21:10We have a looming parkland shortage of 174 hectares

2:21:14by 19, by 2051.

2:21:17And that was before Doug Ford cut in half

2:21:20the amount that parkland dedication

2:21:22the developers need to give for high density buildings.

2:21:27Sleiman Park is one of the areas of the city

2:21:31with the least number of parks in relation to park pollution.

2:21:35We have clearly no money available to buy new parks.

2:21:40We're in a situation where we're not going to need

2:21:42our tree canopy targets by 2031

2:21:46for climate change mitigation.

2:21:48So if we have unused areas of parks,

2:21:51we should be using that for tree planting

2:21:53because we've heard from staff

2:21:55that we don't have enough public land

2:21:57to meet our goals for tree planting.

2:22:00And I think the most important thing is

2:22:02that our city has already zoned for housing

2:22:06beyond our capacity to supply water for 2051.

2:22:10Former CAO's Scott Stewart said that we were in a position

2:22:14where if you approved housing

2:22:18in the innovation district to conversion

2:22:20from employment lands, which you did,

2:22:22that we were going to be to subtract housing somewhere else.

2:22:26And if we exceed our water budget,

2:22:28then we are looking at pipes to late year,

2:22:32which 20 years ago was going to be in $8 billion cost.

2:22:37So I don't think the issue seems to be a shortage of land

2:22:41that is zoned for housing,

2:22:43but perhaps we're at the point where

2:22:45a consideration of council needs to be

2:22:48perhaps even expropriation of land

2:22:50for cooperative housing or partnership with Wellington County

2:22:54or an organization like Habitat for Human.

2:22:57It's clearly the problem is that it's not land,

2:23:00but it's who owns it and how it's being used.

2:23:03Thank you.

2:23:06Okay, thank you.

2:23:07Is there any questions for the deli?

2:23:10Hearing and seeing none, thank you very much.

2:23:13And speaking of Habitat for Humanity,

2:23:18Ryan Deskas here to bring forward a delegation.

2:23:23Welcome Ryan, I'll turn the mic over to you

2:23:25whenever you're ready.

2:23:29Thank you, Mayor Guthrie, councillors and staff.

2:23:34Here today, we all understand the need

2:23:36to find housing solutions.

2:23:38The housing crisis has become an all too familiar conversation

2:23:41from our living rooms to our council chambers.

2:23:45For those living in need of housing,

2:23:46it's always remains front and center and top of mind.

2:23:50So today's conversations are encouraging.

2:23:54I'm here today speaking on behalf of Habitat

2:23:56for Humanity, Guelph Wellington.

2:23:58With over 30 years of building alongside

2:24:00our community partners, Habitat has brought

2:24:03over 49 affordable homes to our community.

2:24:06Today Habitat Guelph Wellington is actively building

2:24:09and with projects underway that promise

2:24:11to bring over 200 units online in the next three years.

2:24:15And we have ambitions to grow beyond that.

2:24:18So we understand firsthand many of the challenges ahead.

2:24:22Much has certainly changed since we began 30 years ago,

2:24:25but it's safe to say that the need has never been greater.

2:24:28I would like to applaud the city and staff

2:24:31for everything they've been doing thus far

2:24:33and for answering the call from the community

2:24:36to explore what more could be done.

2:24:39So what's the opportunity?

2:24:47We know there's work to be done across the board

2:24:49from all levels of government to builders,

2:24:52to not-for-profits, to housing providers.

2:24:54But we're having the conversation here today

2:24:56because there's been a willingness

2:24:59from the leadership in the community to step up

2:25:02and ask what is possible for the city

2:25:05to move the bar forward in its own way on housing.

2:25:09And I would venture to say the underlying principle

2:25:11of today's conversation is in and of itself good and important.

2:25:17The exploration of city-owned lands and city-owned processes

2:25:21in order to facilitate and encourage action

2:25:24on affordable housing solutions.

2:25:27Put simply, there are few reasons why land

2:25:29is a really great place to start.

2:25:32The first, land, as it's been discussed

2:25:34with necessary approvals, is expensive

2:25:36and particularly hard to come by,

2:25:39especially for those of us who are actively

2:25:41building affordable housing today.

2:25:44So finding land is important to bring down

2:25:46the cost of housing.

2:25:48The second is that land can be a catalyst

2:25:51to not only build more, but to build better,

2:25:55more balanced communities.

2:25:57It can bring people together from across the housing

2:25:59continuum around a common objective or a common project.

2:26:03And where there's shared ownership in a problem,

2:26:06it means there's a shared investment in problem solving.

2:26:10So there's certainly a natural leadership role for cities,

2:26:13not just the city of Guelph,

2:26:15in making land available that's ready for development.

2:26:17And on this front, our conversation today

2:26:20finds us all in good company.

2:26:22Two examples that are top of mind,

2:26:24the city of Kitchener has recently donated

2:26:26a parcel of land to Habitat for Humanity,

2:26:29one hectare or close to two and a half acres in size

2:26:32worth roughly five and a half million dollars.

2:26:35In Windsor, Ontario, city council recently voted

2:26:38to pursue missing middle housing

2:26:40on eight municipally owned properties.

2:26:42And as a special mention, many of us came together last week

2:26:46to celebrate all of the community wide efforts

2:26:48that brought 10 Shelldale through to fruition.

2:26:51And notably, there was a donation of land

2:26:53that was at the heart of that,

2:26:55that helped organize the efforts.

2:27:00These examples are all commendable efforts

2:27:01to encourage action on housing solutions

2:27:04and they show that it can be done here at home.

2:27:06But making land available is not the end of the road.

2:27:09I might respectfully challenge a suggestion

2:27:12that one specific type of housing

2:27:15is what's appropriate for these properties today.

2:27:17We all know that principles of good community design

2:27:21call for a mix of balanced social and economic backgrounds

2:27:25in order to create vibrant and healthy communities.

2:27:28And it would be our suggestion

2:27:30that we won't get where we need to be as a community

2:27:32if we continue to compartmentalize

2:27:34an individual housing solution for an individual project.

2:27:38Land, if properly managed, is a natural platform

2:27:42to bring organizations, community leaders, governments,

2:27:46new ideas all together around a common goal

2:27:49and be a true catalyst for action on housing.

2:27:52So from Habitat's perspective,

2:27:54we believe in balanced communities,

2:27:57in balanced community design.

2:27:59And I would venture that we have a proven track record

2:28:02of creating these types of bridges

2:28:04across the housing continuum in our past work

2:28:07and in our work today and in our work going forward.

2:28:10So we all know that good planning is important for our city.

2:28:13We all know that action is needed.

2:28:15We all know that not every solution is going to be perfect.

2:28:18But fundamentally, this is a prime example

2:28:21of why we need, particularly for affordable housing,

2:28:25to all be sitting down together at the table,

2:28:27the city, the not-for-profit housing providers,

2:28:31the developers, to look at how can we make this happen,

2:28:35not why it's not gonna work.

2:28:37Okay, thank you so much.

2:28:38I'll just cut you off there.

2:28:39Sorry, it's your five minutes,

2:28:40but Councillor Oroarke and then Councillor Caron, please.

2:28:46Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

2:28:47Through you to Mr. Desca.

2:28:49Thank you for your presentation

2:28:50and for all the work you're doing in the city.

2:28:52It's appreciated.

2:28:54I'm just wondering, you mentioned,

2:28:55I think Kitchener and Windsor,

2:28:57who have done sort of a land donation

2:29:00or arrangement of some kind.

2:29:01Do you happen to know if those were parks

2:29:04or if they were other lands?

2:29:08My understanding of the Kitchener site

2:29:11is that it was a piece of land

2:29:13that was slated for residential development already.

2:29:16In Windsor, I'm not sure.

2:29:18They were eight municipally-owned properties.

2:29:20And so certainly in speaking to the principle

2:29:25of what the city is exploring today and the merits of that,

2:29:28I would commend the impetus towards action.

2:29:33As to whether it's a park specifically,

2:29:36I can't comment on if that's sort of what is best, I guess.

2:29:40Okay, so three, Mayor Guthrie.

2:29:42I'm just curious.

2:29:45We are gonna get a different list in five or six months

2:29:50that will potentially have better amenities,

2:29:53maybe space for more units.

2:29:56And so I'm just wondering what you think about

2:30:00the need to make a decision today

2:30:03or at the end of the month, really,

2:30:04where we validate the discussion.

2:30:07Is it better to have the full menu of possibilities

2:30:12in a couple of months in order to make better decisions?

2:30:17In reviewing the report, I would say today,

2:30:20it's better not to throw the BB out with the bathwater.

2:30:24And in saying that is that there's a certain proposal

2:30:27there on the table.

2:30:28I think certainly the amount of lands

2:30:32that are currently allocated with the sort of rectangles

2:30:37around them on the overhead

2:30:40don't necessarily need to be as big as they are.

2:30:42Although building more housing, I think, is important.

2:30:46I think the other thing is that the reason we're here today

2:30:49is because someone took a leap and took action

2:30:53and tried to create a sense of urgency around this.

2:30:55And I say this with absolutely all due respect

2:30:58because I've been on both sides of the table.

2:31:00But continually pushing our decisions down the road

2:31:07to wait for another possible solution

2:31:09and another possible solution,

2:31:10there's a tendency in municipal government,

2:31:13in provincial government, in federal government

2:31:15for these types of processes to carry on

2:31:17over long periods of time.

2:31:19So I think that that's not necessarily a bad idea.

2:31:22I think there's likely some really great opportunities

2:31:26available in the city.

2:31:28I think it might be enlightening to review

2:31:31how long a development takes

2:31:33when the city starts reviewing it from their own perspective

2:31:36and to see what it's like for those on the other side

2:31:39of the table who are looking to move projects for themselves.

2:31:48So I guess I wouldn't want to quell a sense of urgency

2:31:52in terms of moving forward.

2:31:54In a completely unrelated but related matter,

2:31:59this has happened many years consecutively

2:32:02is that we start talking about homelessness

2:32:05and the situation around the state of people

2:32:08on the streets in the wintertime,

2:32:09usually around September.

2:32:11And then there's not time to get that moving forward.

2:32:14So that's just speaking about a timeline.

2:32:16If we don't start today, then when I guess.

2:32:20But I don't disagree that exploring some other solutions,

2:32:24other properties would likely be a responsible decision

2:32:29for sure.

2:32:29Okay, thanks.

2:32:32Thank you and Quran.

2:32:35Identical question.

2:32:38Okay, thank you.

2:32:40There's nothing further.

2:32:42Oh, Councillor Boussato.

2:32:45Forgotten twice.

2:32:46Thanks.

2:32:48Thank you very much for taking the time

2:32:50to come and speak to us.

2:32:51Through the mayor, just a question.

2:32:53I know the CSM for housing in the region of Waterloo

2:32:57is the region, obviously.

2:32:58Do you know who it is in Windsor?

2:33:01I don't know that no.

2:33:03Really just bringing that up as an example

2:33:05of that there's precedent of other cities

2:33:07who are exploring leveraging city owned lands,

2:33:10public lands, taxpayer lands

2:33:12towards affordable housing projects.

2:33:17All right, thank you.

2:33:18And for my last Councillor here asking a question,

2:33:21is Councillor Chew.

2:33:22Thank you Mayor Guthrie through you.

2:33:25Ryan, can you just speak to some examples

2:33:28of public private partnerships that you've been a part of

2:33:32in your role in Habitat and how you guys

2:33:35used the community design process with the public sector

2:33:39to scope out the appropriate housing typology

2:33:42that would be appropriate for, like say,

2:33:45what we're considering here today.

2:33:48Yeah, so around partnerships, I would say a philosophy

2:33:51that we have at our local affiliate anyways

2:33:53is that we want to see

2:33:57continuum wide representation on housing projects.

2:34:01And I mentioned that briefly,

2:34:02but to have all different types of housing

2:34:07represented in one project,

2:34:09and such that each of those are made viable

2:34:12by virtue of being together as part of one project.

2:34:16Some on Council might recall in 2017,

2:34:19prior to my joining Habitat,

2:34:22we did have an MOU to explore this type of vision

2:34:26within the city.

2:34:28And we did host a housing symposium

2:34:30that brought a number of different partners together

2:34:32from across the housing continuum.

2:34:35And there have been a number of projects

2:34:37that have kind of been offshoots of the conversations

2:34:39that happened in the room,

2:34:41but we were taking a leadership role in that respect.

2:34:44While the specific projects didn't move forward,

2:34:46we continue to move forward with that vision.

2:34:49On our city view village project

2:34:51that looks out over the penitentiary lands,

2:34:54very beautiful view.

2:34:58We did have a partnership with,

2:34:59we have worked with Wellington County

2:35:01on affordable rentals for that space,

2:35:03as well as community living.

2:35:05As a housing provider who provides housing

2:35:08for people living with disabilities.

2:35:10We're currently in conversations with Wellington County.

2:35:13There was a resolution from Council directing staff

2:35:16to explore a partnership with Habitat for Humanity

2:35:19on our Fergus build in center Wellington.

2:35:21And so this would mean that we would have

2:35:24the entire project as affordable,

2:35:26some of it being affordable home ownership,

2:35:28some of it being affordable rentals.

2:35:30We're also exploring on our Orchard Park project

2:35:33in Gualphara-Mosa township,

2:35:35the inclusion of seniors co-housing units,

2:35:39affordable seniors rentals,

2:35:41and then Habitat for Humanity units

2:35:43in the repurposing of the Orchard Park building.

2:35:46And we could sure use some servicing it to that.

2:35:50But moving forward,

2:35:52we are pretty excited about the potential of working

2:35:55with multiple housing providers.

2:35:57That's, there's kind of twofold.

2:36:02Our projects are more viable

2:36:04and we can serve more people

2:36:06by working with other people.

2:36:08And as an organization,

2:36:10we feel better when we're bringing affordable units online

2:36:14across the project,

2:36:15rather than leveraging market units

2:36:17to subsidize an offset or Habitat units.

2:36:19It feels like we're expanding our impact.

2:36:22And so as staff,

2:36:24from a cultural perspective,

2:36:26as a staff culture perspective,

2:36:28and as a, just sort of as a philosophy

2:36:32of our organization, we feel good about that.

2:36:37Thank you.

2:36:39I'll go to Councillor Goller and then to Downer.

2:36:42Thank you.

2:36:44Thank you through your worship to Mr. Desca.

2:36:47Thank you for your presentation.

2:36:49Very encouraging to see other municipalities

2:36:52doing things like this to fill that gap.

2:36:56Could you tell me from your perspective,

2:37:00how should the city go about the actual handoff of this land?

2:37:04Because I know that oftentimes a developer will buy something

2:37:07and then it'll take two, three, four years

2:37:09to get the zoning in place.

2:37:11And what would be the best way for the city

2:37:14to hand this off to an organization like Habitat

2:37:17or to a co-op that wants to build this

2:37:20in terms of zoning and regulations for a project?

2:37:27Yeah, I think through you, Mr. Mayor,

2:37:36I think a lot can be done.

2:37:37I think the report does outline some ideas around that

2:37:40and I think an expression of interest is a great way to go.

2:37:43I think there's considerations that can be made.

2:37:45I'm here speaking on behalf of Habitat

2:37:47to the principle of this, but not making a pitch

2:37:50that we're the right organization.

2:37:52Certainly I would make the pitch that there needs

2:37:54to be a balanced representation

2:37:56and I think Habitat has a component of those.

2:38:00I think there's value in our model for the city,

2:38:03but I wouldn't say that we're the only one.

2:38:06I think there needs to be an organization

2:38:07that has an emphasis towards action

2:38:09and has demonstrated the capacity to do similar projects,

2:38:13whether that's a private builder or a not-for-profit.

2:38:15I think the city needs to be working with someone

2:38:18who has a demonstrated capacity

2:38:21to deliver a project on time and on budget.

2:38:24And with regards to planning,

2:38:25I think if there's an emphasis, again,

2:38:29speaking of this, what's possible

2:38:31if we all pull in the same direction,

2:38:34I would assume that the city plan,

2:38:39it would be a collaborative project in a sense

2:38:41between the city and the proponent,

2:38:43whereby the planning staff would be actively working

2:38:46to expedite within good planning practice, of course,

2:38:51but to expedite the process so that it can move forward

2:38:54quickly.

2:38:56Thank you for that.

2:38:57I appreciate it.

2:38:58Thank you, worship.

2:38:59Thank you, and Councillor Downer, please.

2:39:00Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:39:03One other thing, I'm gonna ask staff this later too,

2:39:05but has Peppet had ever approached a university for land?

2:39:11When I think of, I don't, like the University of Guelph,

2:39:14Lisa's lands, right up Stone Road Mall,

2:39:17they have one of the biggest landholders certainly in Guelph.

2:39:22I don't know what other universities,

2:39:23but has that ever happened?

2:39:27Maybe it's about time.

2:39:31Mr. Mayor, we're continually exploring

2:39:34different organizations where land might be available.

2:39:37I don't know if I wanna sort of list off

2:39:39the different types of public or not-for-profit

2:39:42organizations that are landholders here locally,

2:39:46but certainly if and where the university had land

2:39:54that would be suitable, we would pursue that.

2:39:56And I think we would pursue any project of that scale

2:40:00from the perspective of what can we do,

2:40:02not just as habitat.

2:40:03Maybe we're the catalyst and we're driving

2:40:07the sort of coordination of people coming together on that,

2:40:10but any project at a certain scale,

2:40:13we're hoping to be doing alongside community partners.

2:40:16And that's the vision we've talked about

2:40:18with Friends of Guelph and it's a vision

2:40:20that we've talked about in the symposium

2:40:22and that kind of thing, but we're open to any land.

2:40:26And I think-

2:40:27Yeah, I understand you'd be open to it, of course,

2:40:29but have you ever approached the university?

2:40:32In my tenure with Habitat, no,

2:40:35we haven't approached them explicitly.

2:40:37I'm not sure prior to that what kinds of conversations

2:40:40have been happening.

2:40:44Great, that looks like that's it.

2:40:45Thank you so much for coming, appreciate it.

2:40:49Okay, by video, I think is Arlene Socombe.

2:41:03Okay, yep, just-

2:41:04Hi, can you hear me?

2:41:06Yes, we can hear you Arlene.

2:41:07Are you thinking of putting your video on

2:41:09or did you just wanna do audio?

2:41:11Yeah, no, I'll do it this way too.

2:41:13Okay, yeah, here you come.

2:41:14Okay, you're on, I'll turn it over to you, go right ahead.

2:41:17Okay, thanks.

2:41:19My name is Arlene Socombe, I'm ED of Water Watchers

2:41:21and I have really deep concerns regarding the proposal

2:41:23to hand over parkland to developers under this initiative.

2:41:27As highlighted in the Guelph Mercury article last December

2:41:30entitled, There's a Water Issue Brewing Here,

2:41:33it's clear that Guelph is facing significant challenges

2:41:35with regards to water capacity,

2:41:37especially in light of recent decisions

2:41:39affecting our city's development trajectory.

2:41:42The article underscores a crucial point.

2:41:44Guelph has already surpassed its groundwater capacity

2:41:47concerning housing developments.

2:41:48This reality should serve as a stark reminder

2:41:50of the need for prudent and sustainable urban planning

2:41:53going forward.

2:41:54As you all know, Guelph is fully groundwater dependent.

2:41:56We also know that the city's former CAO, Scott Stewart,

2:41:59specifically warned we have not identified water supply

2:42:03to meet the already projected housing.

2:42:05He cautioned that if you are adding it here,

2:42:06you need to subtract it somewhere else.

2:42:08So where are you subtracting it from?

2:42:10Or more relevantly, where is the new supply of water

2:42:13going to come from?

2:42:14I also note that within the context of new development,

2:42:16the mayor recently wrote to the Premier's office

2:42:18stating, we are going to need help with water supply here.

2:42:22I and many other water watchers want

2:42:23to know what exactly do you have in mind?

2:42:26I recall the fight back in 2006 to oppose the proposed pipeline

2:42:30from Lake Erie.

2:42:31This community remembers that.

2:42:33As water watchers, we are watching the choices

2:42:34you are making and with regards to living

2:42:36within our water capacity.

2:42:38At the moment, it's not looking good.

2:42:40Is a pipeline where this is headed?

2:42:42Needless to say, the main beneficiary of such pipelines

2:42:44are developers who, in the context of unlimited water

2:42:47supply, can lobby for unlimited growth.

2:42:50But we know that once they have built and sold

2:42:52and made their bounteous profits,

2:42:53they have no further skin in the game

2:42:55and don't need to think about what happens to all the people

2:42:57who've moved in.

2:42:58The notion of considering a pipeline is ludicrous.

2:43:01In 2006, the estimated price of the pipeline

2:43:03billed was $8 billion.

2:43:05This many years later, that cost would be significantly higher

2:43:08and Guelph would have a multi-billion dollar share

2:43:10in this.

2:43:12In this vision, we would have to take water from Lake Erie,

2:43:14which is already under intense threat.

2:43:16The insanity of pumping water one way from Lake Erie to Guelph

2:43:19and then pumping wastewater all the way back boggles the mind.

2:43:22The infrastructure costs, the insane operating costs

2:43:25of all the pumping of water and effluent.

2:43:27The ridiculousness of doing this while in an ever-deep

2:43:29and inclement emergency is insanity.

2:43:32This would likely triple or quadruple tax rates here.

2:43:35Planning for a pipeline is either magical, fantastical

2:43:38thinking or gross negligence.

2:43:40In 2006, we said no and we will say no again.

2:43:42Mark my words, this will be an election issue

2:43:44and we are watching.

2:43:46And we are in a housing crisis to be sure.

2:43:49I, for one, am getting tired of the false solutions continually

2:43:51being presented in the name of the housing crisis that

2:43:54are only tender to pander to developers

2:43:56who are largely responsible for the housing crisis

2:43:58to begin with.

2:44:00What we need is densely packed affordable housing.

2:44:02This means a maximum of 30% of a household's income.

2:44:05This report had some bizarre references

2:44:07to the housing crisis that are like 10% below the purchase

2:44:10rate, which are not actually affordable.

2:44:12And further, there are no constraints

2:44:14on single-detached units and no constraints

2:44:15following the first purchase.

2:44:17In order to meet the affordable housing crisis,

2:44:19there are many options to consider

2:44:21that are real solutions.

2:44:23If we can't add any more land, let's optimize what we do have.

2:44:26Here are a few ideas brought to me,

2:44:28brought forward to be my people much smarter than I,

2:44:31and more further serious exploration.

2:44:34We have almost 18 years worth of land currently

2:44:36to optimize it.

2:44:37Bring in a vacancy tax to free up empty homes.

2:44:40Put expiry dates on building permits

2:44:42to discouraged developers from sitting on them.

2:44:45Explore some sort of program that brokers empty bedrooms

2:44:47in existing homes.

2:44:49Build more publicly owned long-term care.

2:44:51I learned there are 30,000 to 40,000 people

2:44:53that currently are wait list for long-term care.

2:44:55This would open up detached housing stock.

2:44:59Explore strategic partnerships with landowners.

2:45:02Consider buying up multi-unit residential units

2:45:05for affordable housing.

2:45:06The city has the power to expropriate.

2:45:08Public money should go into publicly owned assets.

2:45:11Explore co-ops, habitat, humanity, et cetera.

2:45:14Mostly I want to highlight that you have already

2:45:17exceeded your water budget.

2:45:19This is a sobering call from water watchers

2:45:21to take a look at the big picture.

2:45:23You are forfeiting your legitimacy as decision makers

2:45:26as you continue to forge ahead

2:45:28blinded into this water crisis.

2:45:30You have not paid attention and we are watching.

2:45:33As mentioned, this will be an election issue.

2:45:35We need more responsible management,

2:45:37not development on existing partlands

2:45:40that needs tree canopy coverage to meet our needs.

2:45:43Thanks.

2:45:46Thank you for your presentation.

2:45:47Is there any follow-up questions?

2:45:49No, okay, thank you very much.

2:45:54And Bronner Zimmerman is stuck around.

2:45:56I think you're coming up for another delegation.

2:46:01Thank you.

2:46:09Welcome again.

2:46:09I'll hand it over to you.

2:46:11Worship staff and counselors.

2:46:17Great presentations and valid discussions,

2:46:22points put forward, there's no argument.

2:46:25My point is this, when a park's gone, it's gone.

2:46:29And what is a park?

2:46:31Is it someplace you drive to?

2:46:34It should be someplace you walk to.

2:46:36Sleam and park, underutilized.

2:46:38I drive by it, I see it.

2:46:40It's underutilized because it's under,

2:46:44well, let's say underdeveloped.

2:46:47It's a green space.

2:46:48We need the canopy.

2:46:49We need a place where you go, you sit, you contemplate,

2:46:52you get out of the sun, your kids can play.

2:46:55It's literally a family place for the neighborhood.

2:46:59It can't, I mean, we really do need housing,

2:47:02but you know, I live on Glasgow Street,

2:47:04to houses over it, there's an empty place falling apart.

2:47:07Go around the corner, around Preston, there's a lot.

2:47:09Now I don't know, there used to be

2:47:11an old Salvation Army there, whatever.

2:47:13I don't know why it's not being developed.

2:47:15It's a lovely little park right now, I gotta say.

2:47:18But it could be, it could be used.

2:47:20There is land to be used, but a park should not be.

2:47:26I mean, I'm not against housing.

2:47:27I mean, you know what?

2:47:28I've lived in a house for 50 years.

2:47:31I mean, I put my heart and soul in fixing it up.

2:47:34I mean, everybody does.

2:47:36But I've lived there for 50 years,

2:47:37but now it's a big house.

2:47:38It's a little bit bigger than I need.

2:47:40Where would I go?

2:47:41Where would I downsize?

2:47:42I think about that too.

2:47:44So yes, we need places.

2:47:46As somebody, you know, family,

2:47:47hopefully a family could move into my house

2:47:49and not, you know, be divided up into, you know,

2:47:53I don't know.

2:47:54You know, we do need student housing.

2:47:56But the park, the park itself,

2:47:58whether it's a small chunk.

2:48:00Okay, let's talk about the other one,

2:48:02Huigothry Park.

2:48:04I drive by it all the time too.

2:48:06I'd walk to it, but it's, you know,

2:48:08Edinburgh Road is not the prettiest place,

2:48:10you know, with its lovely canopy of wires.

2:48:15But the park itself, again,

2:48:18it could be a canopy of green.

2:48:20These are green lungs for the city.

2:48:24They need, we need them as much as we need the housing.

2:48:27And I'm not saying we don't need the housing.

2:48:28We can't live in the sleep, the streets.

2:48:31But we need a place like that.

2:48:33You give it away, it won't come back.

2:48:36And Guelph does not have that many parks.

2:48:38You mean, you can, you can think about little boulevards

2:48:40and little tiny pieces.

2:48:41And yes, those little tiny pieces still are valuable.

2:48:44They are, they're scattered around.

2:48:47So we need them, don't give them away.

2:48:49I know we have a problem.

2:48:51I appreciate the effort that has gone in.

2:48:54You know what I mean?

2:48:55Serious effort.

2:48:56Your heart's in it, it's right.

2:48:57But this park business, please don't give it away.

2:49:03That's all.

2:49:04Thank you.

2:49:06Great, thank you.

2:49:07And is there any questions as a follow up?

2:49:09Seeing, oh, okay.

2:49:11Councillor Chew.

2:49:16Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:49:18I was just at Hugh's got three park

2:49:20for this council meeting,

2:49:21just taking a look at what possibilities could be.

2:49:23And you talked about how some of our existing park spaces

2:49:27are currently underutilized.

2:49:29Do you see a proposition in which, you know,

2:49:33a potential project could help revitalize

2:49:36an existing park space

2:49:37because we're not talking about getting rid of

2:49:39the park spaces completely, right?

2:49:43Councillor Chew, you know, I looked at that.

2:49:46And yes, you know, that there is,

2:49:51if the park is possibly developed in such a way

2:49:54that it does become a proper green space,

2:49:57kind of, I don't know how to explain it.

2:50:00Oh God, you know, that's a tough one

2:50:01because, you know, along Edinburgh Road,

2:50:02yes, there could be development.

2:50:04I mean, a co-op, or, I mean, I'm all for the co-op

2:50:07and habitat.

2:50:09But I'm worried about that, you know what I mean?

2:50:11Slowly bit by bit, another chunk of another park

2:50:13is given away and everything else like that.

2:50:15And suddenly, you know, you go,

2:50:17oh, we don't have all that park.

2:50:21And parks, you know, it's a simple word, park.

2:50:25We have parking lots, right, for cars.

2:50:28In fact, you know, we have drawn Valley Parkway.

2:50:31I mean, the word has been deluded,

2:50:33but a park is something that's unique,

2:50:38that must be maintained.

2:50:39And yes, I think,

2:50:42probably the one on Edinburgh, the Hugh Guthrie,

2:50:49a piece of it could be taken away,

2:50:51but again, here it is again, by little slices,

2:50:54little cuts, what happens to our parks?

2:50:57It's a tough one, I admit.

2:51:00But again, please consider this so carefully.

2:51:04Not only now, but as more of these come along,

2:51:08because they will be.

2:51:10Okay, so, Amon Guelph is a beautiful place.

2:51:12It's a wonderful place, I love this place.

2:51:15And what makes it beautiful has to be maintained.

2:51:18It's the humanity of this place.

2:51:20It's the place that you can walk, you can be.

2:51:23You don't, I mean, I don't even want to use my car anymore.

2:51:27Honestly, I could scrap it now.

2:51:29I walk, I take the train.

2:51:32And then not everybody has that opportunity,

2:51:34but you know, with proper planning, yes,

2:51:36we have that opportunity.

2:51:37And that Sleiman Park, especially where it is,

2:51:41I think that's a little bit of a gem

2:51:43that hasn't been maintained,

2:51:44and probably some work done on it.

2:51:47So thank you, I'm sorry,

2:51:48I hope I didn't go too long with that.

2:51:54Great, thank you, Councillor Chew.

2:51:55Yep, Councillor Boussatel.

2:51:57Didn't forget this talk.

2:51:58Yeah, thank you for recognizing me, Mayor.

2:52:01Thank you, and through the mayor,

2:52:03I live close to Sleiman Park, other side of the Hanline.

2:52:06And what I hear from families is they'd love to go to the park,

2:52:09but there's no way to get there.

2:52:10So families that live in all the high rises,

2:52:12the co-op housing at the corner,

2:52:14there's no safe way other than the traffic lights

2:52:16at Willow to cross it.

2:52:18When you talk about amenities,

2:52:20it's something like even a crosswalk.

2:52:21So our families that actually can cross the street safely

2:52:27to get there.

2:52:28Is that what you're picturing,

2:52:29or is it more of the playground amenities,

2:52:32or is it just making it accessible

2:52:34so families can get there?

2:52:36I think both of those.

2:52:37I mean, definitely making it safe to get there.

2:52:40That's a very important thing for children.

2:52:42You don't have to worry about a child going.

2:52:45And the other part is that it becomes a place

2:52:49where you can play, where you can sit,

2:52:50where the shade, we need the trees.

2:52:53And so, yeah, that would be a great idea

2:52:58to have that definitely.

2:53:00Thank you.

2:53:03All right, thank you so much.

2:53:04Thank you for sticking around for a second time.

2:53:06Thank you very much.

2:53:08Okay, we do have one last one.

2:53:10Deb Nukom, Nukomi, I'm sorry.

2:53:13Yeah, come on forward Deb.

2:53:22Thank you for coming.

2:53:23And when the green light goes on there,

2:53:25you go right ahead, okay?

2:53:26Okay, thank you very much.

2:53:27My name is Deborah Nukom,

2:53:29and I live at 23 Echo Drive.

2:53:32Mayor Guthrie and council,

2:53:34I would like to refer you to the letter

2:53:37I sent into this committee last week.

2:53:40As a lifelong resident of the old university neighborhood,

2:53:44I am proud that we have welcomed new neighbors,

2:53:50sorry, living in secondary units,

2:53:54subdivided residential properties and new construction,

2:53:59but I am calling on you to build on parking lots.

2:54:02Do not use our parks.

2:54:05As more people start calling our neighborhood home,

2:54:09these renters need Hugh Guthrie Park for recreation.

2:54:14Reducing the park is contrary to the creation

2:54:18of a more sustainable neighborhood.

2:54:22Also, the staff report understates how much of the park

2:54:27is being proposed for development.

2:54:29There is a steep slope on the side of forest,

2:54:33and many native plants have been planted along the street.

2:54:37Staff estimates approximately 30% of the park

2:54:42would be removed.

2:54:43I think it's gonna be closer 50% when it's finally done.

2:54:49I would also like to point out that this proposal

2:54:52is contrary to the city's official plan,

2:54:55the parks and recreation plan and the climate plan.

2:55:00Finally, the report does not mention the landfill

2:55:03beneath Hugh Guthrie Park,

2:55:06and the risk of building homes on it.

2:55:09I have questions, some of which have maybe been answered

2:55:13today for the staff and council to consider.

2:55:17Did staff assess the risk of development

2:55:20on top of a landfill?

2:55:22Two, how much longer will the assessment

2:55:25of local parking lots take?

2:55:28And three, did the mayor's deadline to have a report

2:55:31by the end of the second quarter of this year

2:55:34result in a rushed and incomplete analysis?

2:55:38I ask that the committee receive the report,

2:55:41but please do not take action.

2:55:44Leave our parks alone.

2:55:45Once they're gone, we will never get them back

2:55:48for future generations.

2:55:50Thank you.

2:55:53Thank you, Deb.

2:55:53And is there any follow up for Deb at all?

2:55:57No, but thank you both for sticking around to the end.

2:55:59Thank you.

2:56:01Okay, so that's it for delegations.

2:56:04We have a pretty easy recommendation right off the top.

2:56:09It's just to receive the report.

2:56:12Would someone be willing to move that at least

2:56:13just to receive?

2:56:15Okay, Councillor Chew, Councillor Klosson.

2:56:20And then we will, it's yet been tabled.

2:56:23Yep, and then let's see if there's any questions.

2:56:26And I do know that Councillor Chew wanted to bring forward

2:56:29some other motions for us to consider as well.

2:56:32But I'll go to you, Councillor Downer first,

2:56:34and then Boussatel second.

2:56:36Through you, Mr. Mayor, to staff,

2:56:40have we ever approached the university to,

2:56:44I mean, you're doing this search of city-owned land,

2:56:46but have we ever been in discussions with the university

2:56:49about all their land holdings in the city

2:56:51about extra housing?

2:56:56With respect to, through the Chair, sorry,

2:56:58with respect to this report itself,

2:57:00no, we haven't done that.

2:57:01We focused on city-owned sites.

2:57:04But as we go forward, as I said, as Luke mentioned,

2:57:07we're going to do more work on the city-owned sites.

2:57:10But then we wanna kinda look at that much sector.

2:57:13So we're gonna start looking at county-owned lands,

2:57:15perhaps just federal lands.

2:57:17We're going to talk to the university.

2:57:19We'll talk to the school boards.

2:57:21So that's kind of the next iteration of the work beyond,

2:57:25once we get a good idea of what our inventory is,

2:57:28city of Guelph lands, then we can start adding to that.

2:57:32Okay, good, thanks.

2:57:35Thank you, Boussatel, and then Koran.

2:57:39Thank you, a couple of questions, if I might, for staff,

2:57:42and this is perhaps for planning staff,

2:57:44if they could just validate some of the things

2:57:46that I heard from the delegations,

2:57:48I don't know if they wanna come up,

2:57:49or yell from the second row.

2:57:59Thank you, so the first question is,

2:58:01what I heard is that there is a park lands shortage.

2:58:05If you could just confirm that for me.

2:58:14Through the chair to council, Boussatel,

2:58:15what we identified in previous park policy,

2:58:18things like the park land dedication by-law,

2:58:21and through the park plan was that the park,

2:58:29the current park service levels meet

2:58:33the minimum requirements of the OP,

2:58:34but so there's two different targets,

2:58:36there's what we must have, which is,

2:58:38I believe, off the top of my head, it's been a while,

2:58:40but I believe it's two acres of park land per thousand

2:58:46people at a minimum, and then we should aspire

2:58:48to 3.3 acres of park land per thousand people,

2:58:50so we are currently meeting the minimum,

2:58:54but we're challenged to meet the should portion

2:58:59of what the official plan outlines.

2:59:00Right, thank you, and the second question is about,

2:59:04is there a shortage of land for development

2:59:06in the city of Guelph?

2:59:15Through the mayor to the councillor,

2:59:16so on May 31st, we published our annual housing inventory

2:59:24supply report, there is, as one of the delegates

2:59:27alluded, there is a 4.1 year supply of short-term housing,

2:59:32there is a 17 year supply in long-term housing,

2:59:35but the 17 year supply does deed servicing

2:59:37in other items, but there is currently

2:59:40four year supply of short-term housing available.

2:59:43Thank you, my next question is,

2:59:47since I've been sworn in, can you tell me what changes

2:59:50there have been to the park land dedication,

2:59:55amount of land, what percentage it's changed,

2:59:58and also payment in lieu?

3:00:07Through the chair to councillor Bucitile,

3:00:09I don't have the specifics off the top of my head,

3:00:11but what I can tell you that has changed

3:00:13with recent provincial direction is,

3:00:18the city in their park land dedication,

3:00:20the 2018 update, they introduced caps and restrictions

3:00:24for how high park land can advance

3:00:27and dedication rates can go, since that,

3:00:30through series of bills, the specific numbers

3:00:33are alluding me now, 184, five, sorry.

3:00:37The province has introduced their own caps.

3:00:40I want to say at the top of my head again,

3:00:41that's a 10% cap of land value to be conveyed

3:00:45for high density sites, and then in subsequent legislation,

3:00:49they've also introduced exemptions for affordable housing

3:00:52and things of that nature.

3:00:53Thank you, so what I've heard is that,

3:00:56from other conversations, is that the park land dedication

3:00:59has been reduced by 50% and the payment in lieu

3:01:02has been reduced by 50%, if I could just get a comment on that.

3:01:11Through the chair, I'm hearing from,

3:01:13Chris said that that is correct.

3:01:15Thank you, so that's less money and less land

3:01:17that we're receiving.

3:01:19The last question is economic development,

3:01:21because clearly this was an economic report,

3:01:25not so much recreation or health and wellbeing and so on.

3:01:28What does programmed space mean and underutilized?

3:01:32I'm trying, those are measurements,

3:01:35that number of users and so on,

3:01:37and how did you accommodate for,

3:01:39or how did you account for externalities

3:01:41like health and wellbeing, mental health,

3:01:43the benefits that are provided,

3:01:45tree canopy, climate change and so on,

3:01:48because really what I see is more of the economic headcount

3:01:52number of users in there.

3:01:53I think that was referenced to Slimming Park

3:01:55and how often the baseball diamond was used and so on.

3:01:59So I'm feeling, there's only one half of the walnut here,

3:02:02which is the economic side to this

3:02:04and not the externalities or the additional parts

3:02:06to the conversation.

3:02:11Through the mayor,

3:02:12I, so I know I'm the general manager

3:02:15of the Economic Development Tourism Department,

3:02:17but this wasn't an economic development lens applied to this.

3:02:21So this was worked on as part of the Realty Services Division

3:02:24and Strategic Real Estate.

3:02:26So when we talk about underutilized

3:02:30park space versus program,

3:02:32that's really park terminology

3:02:34and I'd probably pass that over to Colleen to answer.

3:02:44Thank you, through the chair.

3:02:45So I mean, without getting too far down

3:02:48into the literal weeds on this,

3:02:50our park plan defines what a park is

3:02:52and so park is meant for recreation purposes

3:02:55and so for the purposes of this,

3:02:56our parks plan and our policies,

3:02:58parks are areas of land that get set aside

3:03:01primarily for human enjoyment,

3:03:02recreation, connection to nature.

3:03:04And we do tend to use park and parkland

3:03:07interchangeably in our documents

3:03:09when we refer to areas of land,

3:03:11which then is differentiated from natural heritage systems

3:03:16because those are excluded from the policies

3:03:18or strategies relating to parkland

3:03:20because those have limited accessibility

3:03:22or opportunities from recreation.

3:03:24So we do differentiate natural heritage systems

3:03:27as separate from parks and parkland.

3:03:29Then when we get to talking about parks and parkland,

3:03:33while there is sometimes overlap

3:03:35with natural heritage systems,

3:03:37parks and parkland is a little bit,

3:03:39then when we look to quantify park and parkland,

3:03:42we have programmed spaces

3:03:44where we actually have bookable spaces,

3:03:46a sports field, a bookable space like a pavilion.

3:03:51And so those are bookable program spaces

3:03:53that have active use.

3:03:55Playgrounds would be another example

3:03:56of an active use space in a park.

3:03:59And then we have lots of spaces in our parks

3:04:02that may not be bookable.

3:04:06And so then it a little bit becomes in the eye

3:04:09of the beholder whether it is active use

3:04:11because it's not a bookable space.

3:04:13So we may not define it as active use,

3:04:16but if you choose to go sit there and juggle a ball,

3:04:20you're actively using that space,

3:04:22but we may not have defined it as active use

3:04:25in the same way.

3:04:26We may consider that more of a passive park space,

3:04:29but you as a user who may be walking through it

3:04:31with your children or throwing a ball back and forth

3:04:34are still using that park in an active way.

3:04:37So a little bit is to quote some expression

3:04:41from the other day, words matter.

3:04:43But when we're talking about parks,

3:04:45and so I think when it came up with Sleiman Park

3:04:47or even with Guthrie Park,

3:04:49when we think of Guthrie Park,

3:04:50we have a bookable space in Guthrie Park,

3:04:55and then we have another section of Guthrie Park

3:04:57which isn't bookable, it's more passive open area space.

3:05:01And I think that's what we're referring to.

3:05:03Whereas in Sleiman Park,

3:05:04the space that we're talking about

3:05:06would actually take a baseball diamond offline,

3:05:09which is a bookable active use space.

3:05:12So it's open spaces tend to be more for general recreation.

3:05:16You can't book them and they're not designated

3:05:18for a specific purpose.

3:05:19That's helpful.

3:05:20That's kind of helpful, but really so.

3:05:22This report speaks to the quantifiable bookable,

3:05:25I'm paying for a space versus I have no money,

3:05:29I'm a single mother, I've got five kids,

3:05:30it's all I've got kind of thing.

3:05:32And so there's a value judgment there

3:05:34that I'm really struggling with.

3:05:35My last question is about Silver Creek Parkway,

3:05:39sorry, Silver Creek Sleiman Park.

3:05:41The comments from the community is,

3:05:43would love to go to the park, can't get there.

3:05:46So all those high rises along Silver Creek,

3:05:49one, two, three, four, the co-op at the corner,

3:05:51the other and so on, there is no safe crossing

3:05:54for me, my stroller and my five kids to get to the park.

3:05:58Is there any plans when we're talking about

3:06:01improving amenities to actually activate,

3:06:04to make it accessible and safe for families to use?

3:06:11Through the mayor, we would have to get back to you

3:06:16on what the longer term plans are for accessibility

3:06:18through to Sleiman Park, I don't have that answer.

3:06:20So I would need to get back to you anyways.

3:06:21Thank you.

3:06:24Okay, thank you.

3:06:25Koran is next and then Keaton, sorry Leanne,

3:06:38Councillor Caron, I'm sorry.

3:06:41It's probably awesome what you said

3:06:42because it was so animated,

3:06:44but we didn't hear what you said.

3:06:46Can you unmute?

3:06:51Shoot, we're not hearing you.

3:06:53Oh yeah, you're here now, go ahead.

3:06:55Thank you.

3:06:56We have a housing affordability strategy happening.

3:06:58We're in consultation right now,

3:07:00lots and lots of work being done on that whole strategy.

3:07:04We also have the city-wide land inventory

3:07:07that is in the report that we're working on.

3:07:12So we have centralized data of all sources,

3:07:15including more than just parks,

3:07:18but also school boards and other land holdings.

3:07:21When are those studies scheduled to be completed?

3:07:25When will they be coming back to Kansas?

3:07:32Through the mayor, I can speak with respect

3:07:34to the inventory itself.

3:07:36We're targeting year-end for that work to be complete,

3:07:39but I wanna caution that that's the city-owned parcels.

3:07:43We haven't started to look at those other school boards

3:07:47and that is something that's kind of the next step,

3:07:50but we are continuing that work today

3:07:53and with something back.

3:07:56We're complete by the end of the year with a report

3:07:59in the first quarter of 2025,

3:08:02but we can definitely look at advancing that as well.

3:08:06I'll pass it over to Christopher for additional comments.

3:08:09Thanks and through the mayor to the councillor.

3:08:12So the housing affordability strategy,

3:08:14September 10th council planning is an update

3:08:17on the housing affordability strategy,

3:08:19including draft strategic actions.

3:08:21October 8th is the draft housing affordability strategy

3:08:26with the intent to come to council

3:08:28for final approval on December 10th of this year.

3:08:31Okay, thanks.

3:08:32And that's important.

3:08:33I think as a council, we are obligated

3:08:37to make evidence-based and informed decisions

3:08:40and we're being asked to make decisions today

3:08:42that full information.

3:08:45I know right now it's just to receive.

3:08:46There's no other recommendations on the table,

3:08:50but I need to make fully informed decisions

3:08:54and those strategies, those reports,

3:08:56that data is significant in how I'm approaching this.

3:09:00So the other question I had is we had a housing symposium.

3:09:04We've had lots of media attention

3:09:07to the housing crisis in Ontario.

3:09:10We had the Greenbelt giveaway

3:09:13and from a provincial perspective

3:09:15where land was the carrot

3:09:20for solving housing crisis in Ontario and the GTA.

3:09:25But nowhere have I heard that access to land

3:09:32is a factor in the reason why developers

3:09:35are not proceeding with development.

3:09:36In fact, in the housing symposium,

3:09:38it was things like infrastructure, red tape,

3:09:41labor and materials, high interest rates.

3:09:44Access to land was not on the list.

3:09:47Do we have any evidence or data that demonstrates

3:09:51that a land shortage in the city of Guelph

3:09:55is a significant factor in the housing shortage?

3:10:03I think to clarify the purpose of what was before you today

3:10:07was yeah, there isn't a land shortage.

3:10:11However, land isn't free or no cost

3:10:14and land contributes significantly

3:10:17as one of the presenters said earlier,

3:10:19contributes to the cost of housing.

3:10:22So the work that we prepared was,

3:10:26let's do an RFEOI, a request for expressions of interest

3:10:30to see if we can find somebody to develop affordable units

3:10:35now that we've taken the cost of the land out of the equation

3:10:39as well as the rules under Bill 185

3:10:42in terms of no development charges,

3:10:44no park line dedication fees.

3:10:46All in the effort to hope that with those costs removed,

3:10:51that we could see some affordable residential units developed,

3:10:57recognizing that construction costs

3:10:59have gone through the roof

3:11:01as well as interest rates are quite high right now.

3:11:03So what is it the city could do to contribute

3:11:05to helping a partner or somebody,

3:11:09whether it's for-profit or non-profit,

3:11:13what can we do to kind of reduce the cost of housing?

3:11:16So you mentioned a number of factors

3:11:19that we're already doing.

3:11:20We're already reduced development charges.

3:11:22We've already shortened time frames.

3:11:25We've already committed in our capital plan

3:11:28to building infrastructure faster.

3:11:31So we've put significant skin in the game

3:11:34and that will fall on the tax base.

3:11:38So shifting a little bit,

3:11:41I'm gonna shift my question a little bit now

3:11:43to the use of park land.

3:11:45And I think there's been some great questions

3:11:46about what is passive park land,

3:11:48what is unprogrammed park space?

3:11:51Because the park land that I see being used

3:11:55is almost all passive use.

3:11:57It's kids playing and throwing frisbees

3:12:00and reading a book under a tree.

3:12:02None of it is programmed.

3:12:04So there's lots of value there.

3:12:05And so I know that this staff wrote this report

3:12:09as a result of a mayoral direction.

3:12:11And I do wanna give credit to the mayor.

3:12:15We all recognize the housing crisis is real

3:12:18and that we all need to be looking at creative ways

3:12:22to address it.

3:12:23But the city's never been in the housing business.

3:12:26We've never been a developer.

3:12:29And we're entering a new arena

3:12:31and we're using our park land as the carrot.

3:12:39So staff have prepared a report

3:12:41based on a mayoral direction.

3:12:43But staff have not weighed in on their support

3:12:48for the use, specifically for the use of park land

3:12:53or housing, specifically on the whole concept

3:12:57of taking existing parks in built up areas

3:13:01and converting them for development purposes.

3:13:03So I know that staff will likely say

3:13:07that they will do whatever is the will of council,

3:13:09but I'd like staff to weigh in on whether they support

3:13:13the use of park land in built up areas

3:13:17for housing development.

3:13:20So through the chair to council Koran and you're right,

3:13:24it's a difficult question to answer.

3:13:28I think as you heard in Mr. Goodram's,

3:13:31sorry, as you heard in Mr. Goodram's initial remarks,

3:13:36we're torn on this too.

3:13:39We understand that, you know,

3:13:42as part of our parks and recreational master plan,

3:13:45that does indicate that we're not meeting

3:13:48our park requirements.

3:13:50We know, and we've heard it at every planning meeting,

3:13:53how important parks are to making complete communities.

3:13:58But I think we also all agree

3:14:01that we do have a housing crisis.

3:14:04And I'm glad to hear that we've been talking

3:14:07about all the great work that this council

3:14:10and our staff have been doing to address that.

3:14:13So as we looked at the mayoral direction,

3:14:16there were some stipulations in there

3:14:18that we had to abide by,

3:14:22and one of them was the ability to really develop quickly.

3:14:26And so keeping that in mind,

3:14:28we're basically looking at unencumbered table land

3:14:32and that is parks.

3:14:35So that is where we landed.

3:14:37So if you're, to answer the question of, you know,

3:14:42to answer the mayoral direction,

3:14:44those are the two parks that we came up with,

3:14:48based on the stipulations that were included

3:14:50in the mayoral direction.

3:14:52So I know that we said,

3:14:54but we're going to continue to review the properties,

3:14:58but we're torn too.

3:15:00So you're right, councillor Caron,

3:15:04I'm awaiting council direction on where you land with us,

3:15:08understanding that it's a difficult decision for you.

3:15:13Yeah, thank you.

3:15:18I know right now all we have is a report to receive.

3:15:20So I won't ask any further questions.

3:15:22I'll wait for comments and I'll wait to see

3:15:26what else comes on to the floor as recommendations.

3:15:30And then I have a potential other motion

3:15:32to put on the floor if that happens.

3:15:37Thank you, Kate and then old.

3:15:41Your question to staff.

3:15:44Why was the special Olympics use of the baseball diamond

3:15:47at Sleiman Park considered less important

3:15:49than programming at other parks?

3:15:56Through the merit certainly wasn't considered less important

3:15:59by any way, shape or form.

3:16:00It was just noted that that was the usage at Sleiman Park,

3:16:04but it was not at all a value statement

3:16:07on the usage of the park.

3:16:08And we absolutely, as Mr. Jefferson's made

3:16:10in his opening comments, we would,

3:16:13if this was to go ahead and Sleiman Park was repurposed,

3:16:17we would absolutely work with them

3:16:18to accommodate them elsewhere.

3:16:22Okay, thank you very much on that through the mayor.

3:16:26I've noticed just looking around the area,

3:16:28much of the surrounding area at Sleiman were high rises

3:16:31and this area was listed higher in the food insecurity map

3:16:35when we were doing that work.

3:16:37Were community gardens considered

3:16:38to increase the programming if the lack of programs

3:16:41in this park were an issue for the space?

3:16:47Through the mayor, it wasn't that lack of programs

3:16:49were considered an issue for the space.

3:16:51We're always looking at other programming opportunities

3:16:53for all of our parks.

3:16:55These parks weren't chosen

3:16:56because we felt there was lack of programming,

3:16:58but these parks were identified

3:17:00because there was a potential ability to repurpose them.

3:17:04So I suppose it's a bit of a chicken and an egg conversation,

3:17:07but we're always looking for opportunities

3:17:10to program our parks,

3:17:11but our limitations tend to be more about resourcing

3:17:13than anything.

3:17:16Great, thank you, I appreciate that.

3:17:18And my final question,

3:17:21I had heard that there were the mention of the 23 to 25 years

3:17:24for affordability mentioned.

3:17:27Why are we looking at a times limit for affordability

3:17:32instead of in perpetuity

3:17:33if the city land is being given for housing?

3:17:40Through the mayor,

3:17:42that is just a number we put in the report

3:17:45to line up with some of the other federal programs

3:17:48that are out there for housing affordability.

3:17:51It is something we can consider lengthening

3:17:55or putting into perpetuity

3:17:58when we get to the RFEOI stage.

3:18:03Thank you very much.

3:18:07Thank you, I'll then call her.

3:18:10Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:18:11Minor comments, so I think I'll wait until the questions.

3:18:15I'll wait till the questions are exhausted.

3:18:16I'm gonna do my comments.

3:18:19Okay, just one second, I'll make a new column.

3:18:23Comments,

3:18:25all.

3:18:27I have a feeling I need to put you at the top of comment

3:18:29column every single time.

3:18:31It's all right.

3:18:32So now back to questions, Galler then O'Rourke.

3:18:37Thank you through your worship.

3:18:39First of all, thank you to staff

3:18:41for pulling this together

3:18:43on the direction of Mayor Guthrie.

3:18:48Looking at our parks master plan,

3:18:51it makes it clear that the official plan

3:18:54target is 3.3 hectares per thousand people for Parkland

3:18:58and that we're not meeting all of those

3:19:01for the regional parks, I think it is.

3:19:03And it does tell us that with provincial changes,

3:19:06we're going to be short 2.7 hectares per thousand people.

3:19:11We're going to be short of that target.

3:19:15So as we look at converting some Parkland to residential,

3:19:21would we have considerations of how we make up

3:19:24for that Parkland?

3:19:25Or is this a decision that if council makes it,

3:19:28we're effectively lowering our Parkland

3:19:32without consideration for making it up?

3:19:37Through the chair to Councillor Goller,

3:19:40so as James mentioned,

3:19:42there's a number of activities that are happening

3:19:46that staff are undertaking.

3:19:47One of them is a sports field evaluation,

3:19:49another one will be a park acquisition strategy.

3:19:51This will be coming in the future.

3:19:52And so I think the simple answer is that

3:19:55whatever happens here today would have to be factored

3:19:57into that acquisition strategy to determine

3:19:59how we're going to achieve the service level going forward.

3:20:03Okay, I appreciate that.

3:20:06The other concern raised by one of the delegates

3:20:09from the Wellington Water Watchers

3:20:10was with regards to water refiltration into our aquifer.

3:20:14Taking both of these parks would reduce the amount

3:20:18of open field, would it be possible

3:20:21to actually go ahead with these residential developments

3:20:24without having a negative impact

3:20:26on the recharge of our water table?

3:20:29Or would, if you could.

3:20:36Through the mayor to Councillor Goller,

3:20:37so certainly when a detailed plan would come forward

3:20:40with respect to any of the sort of proposals

3:20:42that we'd be looking at,

3:20:43we would seek to balance storm water management requirements.

3:20:47And so if there's a certain level of infiltration now,

3:20:49then staff would look at how to balance

3:20:50that pre and post development.

3:20:54Okay, so just so that I'm clear,

3:20:56we could do a residential development

3:20:58without having a negative impact on the water infiltration?

3:21:04Through the mayor, that's correct.

3:21:05Okay, thank you for that.

3:21:07And along the same lines, the same delegate

3:21:10and a couple other delegates spoke about

3:21:13how we are at capacity for our water use.

3:21:19Could I get clarity on that?

3:21:20How does that work that if we convert more spaces

3:21:24to residential, does that mean that when we get to the end

3:21:28of 2051, we're just not permitting those last residential

3:21:32lots to be built or how would that work?

3:21:37Through the chair to Councillor Goller.

3:21:39So this was, we addressed, sorry,

3:21:41we addressed this a little while ago

3:21:44because I think the same concern came up.

3:21:45So there is a cap on the water capacity here in Guelph

3:21:50to 2051 that was talked about in our water supply master plan.

3:21:56We've heard about this, the big pipe project

3:21:59a couple of times.

3:22:00Again, that's a massive project.

3:22:02That wouldn't be a city of Guelph project.

3:22:04That would be a provincial, perhaps a provincial project.

3:22:07Of course, we'd be interested if that ever came up.

3:22:10As the delegate mentioned,

3:22:12billions of dollars would be spent on that.

3:22:14There are options in the water servicing master plan

3:22:17that do talk about, that do talk about conservation measures

3:22:22and why they're so important.

3:22:24Talks about also other surface water options

3:22:28that we might consider before that.

3:22:30But again, that would be a big investment

3:22:33in terms of capital infrastructure.

3:22:36So as we go on with our,

3:22:40what you're going to start to see

3:22:41in some of our planning reports is some indication

3:22:44of where we are in terms of a,

3:22:48not a countdown, but a reverse thermometer.

3:22:51But as we, there's only so many units

3:22:53that you're going to be able to bring on board

3:22:55with the water supply that we have now.

3:22:56And so as we start to bring those units on board,

3:23:00we will, we're gonna start putting in some messaging in there

3:23:03that would indicate where we are and how many we have left.

3:23:07So that's to come in some of our planning process.

3:23:11Did I answer your question?

3:23:12I'm not sure.

3:23:12So to be clear, what I'm understanding is that

3:23:15as we near that capacity,

3:23:17we could actually start not approving developments

3:23:21because we've reached our capacity.

3:23:24Through the chair, that's correct.

3:23:25Okay, okay.

3:23:26Thank you for that.

3:23:27I really appreciate that.

3:23:30Then one of the other questions

3:23:32that I have through your worship is in regards of the type

3:23:37of housing that we would be putting out in the request

3:23:39for expressions of interest.

3:23:41Because, yes, your worship.

3:23:43Yeah, sorry to interrupt you, Councillor.

3:23:45And I think I'd like to try to refocus us.

3:23:49We're getting into like a lot of,

3:23:52almost like planning justification questions.

3:23:54Like we're really veering off a C staff,

3:23:56nodding in agreement.

3:23:58We only have a motion of receiving on the,

3:24:02on the floor right now.

3:24:04So if we could just stick to what is the report

3:24:11and what is the motion on the floor, which is receive only,

3:24:15that would be great.

3:24:16In fact, if it's easier for me just to call the vote

3:24:18on receive only, that might be better just to wipe that off.

3:24:22Because we're starting to,

3:24:23and it's not, I picked on you, Councillor Gaur,

3:24:25but I apologize, there's been others.

3:24:28We're veering into what we know is coming,

3:24:31which is probably a motion to actually try

3:24:33to do a request for expression of interest.

3:24:35That's fair.

3:24:36But let's hold our comments and our questions

3:24:39when that is potentially tabled.

3:24:42I think it'd be incumbent upon us right now if we could.

3:24:46I'll let you finish and have the floor.

3:24:48But let me call the vote on receiving, okay?

3:24:51So you go ahead.

3:24:53It's already been moved to seconded, Councillor O'Hara.

3:24:54Yeah, but point of order.

3:24:55I do have comments I wish to make on the report.

3:24:59Sure, yeah, yeah, I've got two down with you being number one.

3:25:02So I will let you finish, you have the floor.

3:25:05Thank you, Your Worship.

3:25:05And then some comments,

3:25:07and then we'll call the vote on just receiving,

3:25:09get that off, and then if there's anything further

3:25:11from that, we can move forward, okay?

3:25:13Go ahead.

3:25:14Thank you, Your Worship.

3:25:15I will reserve those questions,

3:25:16and I will move on to my last question on the report.

3:25:19With regards to the parking lots,

3:25:22we were told that they were ruled out.

3:25:23There were 14 parking lots that you looked at.

3:25:25Could you help me understand what was said

3:25:28about the direction that ruled them out?

3:25:31If it hadn't said quickly, would there be an opportunity?

3:25:34You mentioned that there was infrastructure

3:25:36underneath those parking lots.

3:25:37If we had a longer timeline,

3:25:40could some of that infrastructure potentially be moved

3:25:42out of the parking lots?

3:25:45Through the mayor, those are the things

3:25:46that we'd have to look at.

3:25:47Like so there was one parking lot

3:25:49that had major infrastructure underneath it.

3:25:51So what's the cost of that?

3:25:54There's other parking lots that we looked at

3:25:56based on historic use,

3:25:58would probably require a risk assessment

3:26:01or a proper environmental assessment.

3:26:03Phase one, phase two, takes some time.

3:26:06So if we were looking at moving quickly

3:26:10with a more unencumbered site,

3:26:12those who are, I don't wanna say they were ruled out,

3:26:15but they were determined to have a longer gestation period.

3:26:20Let's say before we can bring them forward

3:26:22to council for consideration.

3:26:24So that's further work to do.

3:26:26They're not ruled out.

3:26:29They're not easy projects to move forward with

3:26:32in the short term.

3:26:33Okay, okay, I appreciate that.

3:26:34Thank you, thank you, worship.

3:26:35Yep, thank you.

3:26:37So if you don't mind everyone,

3:26:38just I'm gonna pause for a second.

3:26:40If that's okay, okay.

3:26:45Yep, thank you so much.

3:26:46I see you councillor Billings, thank you.

3:26:49I'll put you down.

3:26:50I have a Rourke would be next and then in the new Billings,

3:26:53but if everyone is okay,

3:26:55I think I'd like to just quickly try to get off the page here,

3:26:59to receive only vote,

3:27:01but I'm gonna go to comments, okay?

3:27:03So Alt and then Kate.

3:27:07Thank you, I wasn't certain

3:27:07whether you were taking the questions first.

3:27:10Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

3:27:12Just got my timer started here.

3:27:15First of all, I want to thank the delegates

3:27:16as a former person who worked down and built a co-op

3:27:20in the chair of the housing authority

3:27:21before it was reduced to the counties.

3:27:24I cannot support the motion to receive this report

3:27:27nor the mayor's motions to open up Parkland to development.

3:27:30This is a dangerous precedent,

3:27:31potentially leading to all green space being open.

3:27:34For a city priding itself on its environmental initiatives,

3:27:36this is a complete reversal in principles.

3:27:39I categorically reject the notion that parks

3:27:41or areas of parks with programmed activities

3:27:44are somehow sacrosanct

3:27:45and those with limited or no scheduled programs

3:27:48can be up for grabs.

3:27:50Parks are neither the problem nor the solution,

3:27:52and it is a false paradigm to suggest

3:27:54that turning Parkland into 10% reduced cost,

3:27:57owner occupied or reduced rent can solve our problems.

3:28:01At the present, Guelph has approximately 4,000 to 6,000 units

3:28:04currently approved for building, but not under construction.

3:28:08A staff document reveals we do not need to have a fire sale

3:28:11on a green space.

3:28:13Quoting, Guelph maintains enough land supply

3:28:15to meet the minimum requirements

3:28:16of the provincial policy statement.

3:28:18Currently, there's a short term housing supply

3:28:21of 6.4 years on lands that are zoned

3:28:24when considering lands that are designated

3:28:26and available for residential development.

3:28:28Guelph's total housing supply is able to accommodate

3:28:31a total of 17.9 years of residential housing growth.

3:28:36The Claremont-Besquendery Plan, settled and approved in 2024,

3:28:40will further contribute to the city's

3:28:42future housing supply end quote.

3:28:44But to return to parks, parks are for people,

3:28:47seniors, children, mothers with infants,

3:28:50people not seeking programmed activities.

3:28:52They are especially for those

3:28:53who can't afford recreation elsewhere.

3:28:56The premise of parkland must be programmed

3:28:59is insulting to creativity and imagined nation.

3:29:02When I was a child, my parents could not afford programming

3:29:05and most of my neighbors could not either

3:29:07by the definition we were poor.

3:29:10We did it ourselves, tag, pickup ball, endless football

3:29:13and soccer championships among kids unable to take vacations,

3:29:17not affording minor sports nor summer camps nor cottages.

3:29:21Mums kicked us outside to play in the park.

3:29:24It is absurd to elevate programming

3:29:26above casual park visits.

3:29:28I don't want to have to schedule a time

3:29:30to sit under a tree to protect a park from development.

3:29:34Kids who live in poverty or whose parents just get by

3:29:37with the assistance of food banks and breakfast programs

3:29:40are among us in growing numbers.

3:29:42We don't fight poverty, alienation and urban decay

3:29:45by taking away parks.

3:29:47Instead, we seek real solutions.

3:29:49New co-op and social housing programs,

3:29:52more parkland dedication, the development

3:29:54of those property staff mentioned in the May 31st report.

3:29:59Without parks, what happens to Guelph Street, Canobie?

3:30:02I don't know.

3:30:03Do we plant trees on top of high rises?

3:30:06Do we say our goal was aspirational?

3:30:08I cannot support either the report

3:30:10nor the mayor's upcoming motions

3:30:12because of the principles of strong mayor's edict.

3:30:15This is not a council report.

3:30:17We didn't ask for a report on selling off parkland.

3:30:20It is the mayor's to decide.

3:30:22Council knows the answer.

3:30:24Builders must build on land already approved

3:30:27for development to accept that Hugh Guthrie Park

3:30:30is open for development,

3:30:31puts every park in the city on the block.

3:30:34In exhibition park, there's surely an acre or two.

3:30:37Riverside and Royal City Park similarly,

3:30:39but especially the Bullfrog Park,

3:30:42Mico Valeriat Park, Drew Park, Goldie Mill Park,

3:30:45Herb Markle Park, small parcels addressing a need

3:30:49which are vulnerable.

3:30:51And that's not acceptable to me.

3:30:52We need green spaces for recreation

3:30:54and real housing solutions

3:30:56that do not compromise parks, green spaces and principles.

3:31:00I'm in favor of infill, in favor of inclusive zoning,

3:31:04three plexes, four plexes,

3:31:06three and four bedroom units for large families,

3:31:08but we don't solve a housing crisis

3:31:11by pitting parks against poverty.

3:31:13It's a false dichotomy.

3:31:17All right, thank you.

3:31:19Kate and again, we're just comments about receiving.

3:31:24Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

3:31:26I am against receiving this report

3:31:30because I feel that we will be making decisions

3:31:33without all of the information.

3:31:34We've got several reports upcoming

3:31:37and this is not at all a commentary on staff's effort.

3:31:41I think that they did a great job going through

3:31:43in providing information on what they were asked to provide.

3:31:47I just feel that if we're going to be making motions,

3:31:50then we need to have all of the information

3:31:52and that information is still yet to come.

3:31:54Thank you.

3:31:56Great, thank you.

3:31:57Can I call the vote to receive, folks,

3:31:59just to receive the report?

3:32:01Great, those against.

3:32:05Boussatil and Richardson and Alt and Kate

3:32:11and Billings and Koran.

3:32:15Okay, thank you.

3:32:19Sorry, I am just meaning to make sure I count that.

3:32:23Is Councillor Gibson with us?

3:32:26In favor, Mr. Mayor, in favor of receiving.

3:32:29Okay, you're with us.

3:32:30Okay, hold on, clerks, what was that?

3:32:33Six, five, six?

3:32:35I have seven, four, six against.

3:32:38Okay, okay, so passed, okay, fine.

3:32:41All right, let's move on to Councillor Chew,

3:32:47I believe has agreed to move a couple of motions

3:32:51for consideration of council.

3:32:53So we will, if we could have those up on the screen.

3:32:57Now, I just want to give an opportunity here

3:33:00right after they are presented that Councillor Downer,

3:33:05I believe needs to maybe state something in regards.

3:33:10Maybe the motion should be shown first.

3:33:13So we'll show them and then if,

3:33:17so I'll just turn it over to Councillor Downer for a moment.

3:33:19Okay, given the motion that's now been put on the floor,

3:33:23it hasn't been put on the floor?

3:33:26No, so let me see if it gets on the floor first,

3:33:28moved by Councillor Chew, seconded by,

3:33:32is there anyone that was willing to second it?

3:33:34Oh, maybe not.

3:33:36Hold on, let me.

3:33:36Happy to second, Mr. Mayor.

3:33:40Okay, you'll second it, Councillor Gibson.

3:33:42Okay.

3:33:43Yep.

3:33:44Okay.

3:33:45So it's on the floor and I'll just read it

3:33:47that staff be directed to initiate the required studies,

3:33:50applications and actions to create development ready sites

3:33:54at Hugh Guthrie and Sliman Parks as outlined in report 2024308

3:33:59and that an amount not to exceed 400,000 funded

3:34:02from the Housing Accelerator Fund be allocated

3:34:05to complete this work and that staff be directed

3:34:07to develop and release a request

3:34:09for expression of interest following the completion

3:34:12of all required studies, applications and actions

3:34:14to seek a proponent to develop affordable units

3:34:17at Hugh Guthrie and Sliman Parks as outlined

3:34:21in the report 2024308.

3:34:25With that, I just got to turn over to Councillor Downer.

3:34:28Yes, so I'm going to declare a conflict

3:34:31on the issue of the Hugh Guthrie Park.

3:34:36I have property that's within exactly 120 metres

3:34:41so if it's directing it to go to a planning application

3:34:44and the Planning Act that would be in a conflict.

3:34:47I spoke to the integrity commissioner.

3:34:49There's no conflict to receive or refer this report

3:34:53but for that part, so I would also ask

3:34:56that the motions be split into two separated

3:35:00so that I could vote on the Sliman Park one

3:35:03and not the Hugh Guthrie one.

3:35:06Okay, so if you could make sure that you,

3:35:10what we'll do is we'll do the vote on Guthrie one first

3:35:14then two clerks and then we'll do Sliman second.

3:35:18Okay, I think we all, I'm just going to call it out loud here.

3:35:22We all kind of think know where we stand, honestly.

3:35:24Like we really kind of think know where we stand on this.

3:35:27So is there anything on this

3:35:32before we go any further?

3:35:36Councillor Caron, I saw your hand first.

3:35:39Then Guller.

3:35:45Yes, I'm sorry.

3:35:46Yeah, I have to go back to my original list, Councillor Caron.

3:35:49I'm sorry.

3:35:49O'Rourke, then Billings and then I will go to Cron, okay?

3:35:53So I'm sorry about that.

3:35:56Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:35:56I've got some questions for staff.

3:36:00I am wondering for these two parks in question.

3:36:04I did a lot of work before with the Canadian Index

3:36:06of Well-Being and they had done a study in Guelph years ago

3:36:11and they found that the proximity to parks was very different.

3:36:15It was a lot lower for people who had lower incomes

3:36:18at the time below $40,000.

3:36:22The number of people who strongly agree

3:36:23versus very strongly agree there was a park near them

3:36:26was 41% for people under 40,000

3:36:28and it was 63% for people over 100,000.

3:36:32So I'm just wondering,

3:36:34I don't know what the demographics are of these two areas.

3:36:38Are there other parks nearby

3:36:41that would be easy substitutes for the community,

3:36:49for the surrounding community?

3:36:51So if we take 1.3 acres of a park,

3:36:56is there another park that's really nearby?

3:37:01Through the mayor, we did look at parks in the area

3:37:04and I can pass it over to Mr. Jefferson as well.

3:37:07I don't have the demographics of that specific neighborhood.

3:37:10That's something that we'd have to come back

3:37:11to council with for the month end.

3:37:20Thank you, James.

3:37:22Through the mayor to council work,

3:37:23I would suggest that perhaps,

3:37:25I think I'm just pulling it up now

3:37:28but I don't have it in front of me.

3:37:29So I think there may be a opportunity to follow up.

3:37:32I'm just wondering whether we did some park equity mapping

3:37:35in the, as part of the park plan.

3:37:36So perhaps there's room follow up on that question

3:37:41to give further clarity.

3:37:42Okay, that'll be an important decision point for me.

3:37:46Through you, Mayor Guthrie, staff,

3:37:48I'm just wondering,

3:37:49did we also look at things that could be adaptive reuse

3:37:52or rapid reuse like the pottery studio

3:37:57that also has land that is also in transition?

3:38:02Through the mayor, that's part of our further work.

3:38:05That would be what we,

3:38:07the pottery, for example,

3:38:08there is an agreement there right now, a use agreement.

3:38:11So that would be something that didn't need

3:38:12a short-term deliverable

3:38:13but definitely is something we are looking at

3:38:15as part of our further work over the course of this year.

3:38:19Okay, thank you.

3:38:21Through you, Mayor Guthrie, I'm wondering,

3:38:24what is the city's obligation

3:38:26if we issue a request for expressions of interest?

3:38:30Is it then a foregone conclusion

3:38:31that we need to accept one of them?

3:38:34And the reason I'm asking is we just had

3:38:36a conversation about the drill hall

3:38:38where several months later,

3:38:39we're like, well, maybe we could do this or do that.

3:38:42And the proponents are saying, wait a minute,

3:38:44that wasn't in the original request

3:38:46for expressions of interest.

3:38:47So what's our obligation when we issue one?

3:38:51And how do we know when we issue it

3:38:53that all the conditions,

3:38:56the necessary conditions are baked in?

3:39:01Through the mayor, that's something

3:39:03that we'll work with our purchasing team on.

3:39:06Yeah, with these requests for expressions of interest,

3:39:09you are asking people to do work,

3:39:10invest time, invest money, come up with drawings.

3:39:13So you have to be,

3:39:16you are moving forward with the project,

3:39:19potentially if there is something that comes back

3:39:21and meets the criteria and how it was evaluated.

3:39:24So when you do these things,

3:39:26you have to be clear on what you're looking for.

3:39:27You have to be clear on what the evaluation criteria is.

3:39:31And then if you have proponents that meet that,

3:39:34I think there is an expectation to move forward

3:39:36if they spent time and money submitting a proposal.

3:39:40Okay, so through you Mayor Guthrie to staff,

3:39:43the staff report talks about 10% below market potentially

3:39:48or potentially 30% income.

3:39:50So how do we make sure, should there be an RFEOI,

3:39:56that there are really ironclad measures

3:39:58to ensure that that is subsidized or affordable housing?

3:40:01How do we make sure people don't get a unit in there

3:40:03and then sell it at market rate in five, 10 or 20 years?

3:40:09So through the Mayor,

3:40:10that's something we're working on

3:40:12with legal services planning.

3:40:14That through the Housing Accelerator Fund,

3:40:18I spoke about the Community Improvement Plan,

3:40:21the Affordable Housing Demonstration Project, those things,

3:40:24we need to come up with a mechanism to ensure that

3:40:28if the city of Guelph foregoes

3:40:33development charge, for example,

3:40:35because somebody's developing an affordable housing unit,

3:40:38we need to ensure that we address exactly

3:40:42what you're talking about in terms of how do we make sure

3:40:46that somebody doesn't buy a place at an affordable rate,

3:40:50turn around and flip it and make a profit.

3:40:52So we're looking at ways that we can ensure

3:40:55what I call the city's investment in affordable housing

3:40:59and how we make sure that that,

3:41:02what rules are in place to address that.

3:41:04I don't know if Christa you had anything

3:41:06that you wanted to add to that.

3:41:14Thanks and through the Mayor to the council,

3:41:16I can just add that the affordable housing targets

3:41:19are set by the city every year in an annual report.

3:41:24This year they are based on the Minister's

3:41:26Affordable Housing Bulletin that came out

3:41:28and was included in our information report.

3:41:33So our affordable housing rate,

3:41:34which we would achieve has to meet our target.

3:41:37And in most cases, for example,

3:41:40it's going to be the 60th of your income percentage

3:41:43because it's the lesser or 10% of market or the income rate.

3:41:49So for example, purchase in Guelph,

3:41:52the affordable rate this year is $398,800.

3:41:57So that is much less than,

3:42:00would be a typical 10% reduction.

3:42:02So we would use those numbers and for rental,

3:42:05there's bachelor one bedroom,

3:42:06two bedroom and three bedroom rates,

3:42:07which are all based on income.

3:42:15Thanks, so I didn't, through the Mayor,

3:42:16I didn't want to interrupt that train of thought.

3:42:18I just wanted to provide a bit of a correction

3:42:19on the pottery studio just so that we didn't leave

3:42:22misinformation that the pottery studio,

3:42:23we are actually the tenant in the pottery studio.

3:42:26So it is an option that will I think come back

3:42:29through the team's broader work

3:42:31that will be coming back in early 2025.

3:42:33And it is an option that I think we would,

3:42:35although there are some setback requirements

3:42:37required by Metrolinx due to the proximity

3:42:39to the rail corridor.

3:42:40So it is on the longer term,

3:42:42it wasn't an option to bring you now,

3:42:44but because we, the recreation services team,

3:42:47are actually the tenant in that building,

3:42:48it is a very good option that I think we would look at

3:42:51as part of that broader study

3:42:53that you will be receiving back in early 2025.

3:42:55So I just wanted to provide that clarity

3:42:57so that we didn't leave you with the impression

3:43:00that that wasn't an option that we weren't pursuing,

3:43:02but there is that Metrolinx setback requirement

3:43:07that we are gonna need to look at.

3:43:10Through you, Marga,

3:43:11through just one or two more.

3:43:13I'm really struggling with the use of public park space

3:43:19for housing, especially if it goes into private hands

3:43:23because it would not be subject to rent control

3:43:27because it would be occupied after 2018.

3:43:29So I don't know what the magic considerations are

3:43:33or what is in somebody's lease

3:43:36to make sure that they're protected from increasing rates.

3:43:39And I certainly don't think that there'd be any protection

3:43:41in terms of resale.

3:43:43So that becomes a city subsidy to the purchaser or renter.

3:43:49I'm just wondering through you, Marga, through the staff,

3:43:52have we talked to the county about if we proceeded,

3:43:57could we build subsidized housing on these properties

3:44:01because there's 3,000 people on the wait list

3:44:04for subsidized housing?

3:44:06So have we looked at prioritizing that instead?

3:44:10I'd be a lot warmer to that idea

3:44:14than I am to just an RFEOI for parkland.

3:44:21Through the mayor, we were responding

3:44:24to the direction that we were provided.

3:44:26So that would be a new direction of council.

3:44:31So it's not something we've looked at at this moment,

3:44:34at least we didn't as part of this exercise.

3:44:36I'm not sure if other service areas have.

3:44:43Through the mayor to council or work,

3:44:44that's not something that we have pursued at this time

3:44:46that wasn't part of this direction.

3:44:48But certainly, I think depending on the direction

3:44:51that you gave us, that's definitely a conversation

3:44:53that could be had with the county.

3:44:56Okay, those are my questions.

3:44:58Marga three, I'm struggling here.

3:45:01Okay, thank you.

3:45:02I just want us a little bit of clarity

3:45:03before I go to council or billings.

3:45:07You did mention though that in an upcoming report

3:45:09between now and that upcoming report

3:45:11that you were going to be sort of knocking

3:45:12on the door of the county properties and stuff like that,

3:45:15but that's for their properties.

3:45:17Councillor O'Rourke's question was more for

3:45:21this particular properties,

3:45:23could the county also be interested in that?

3:45:26I would expect that with a request

3:45:28for expression of interest, anybody can bid.

3:45:31Anybody can come and take a look at that.

3:45:33So that would include the county, would it not?

3:45:36That's correct.

3:45:37Yeah, okay, thank you.

3:45:39And I'm gonna go back to just for clarification

3:45:42from councillor O'Rourke.

3:45:43Thanks, Marga, so just on that.

3:45:46So when I've been involved in procurement processes,

3:45:49there's a grid, right?

3:45:51I'm guessing there's some kind of grid

3:45:52and the request for expression of interest.

3:45:55Who's going to set what the points are

3:45:59on that grid for a successful proponent?

3:46:01Are we looking for maximum dollars?

3:46:03Are we looking at maximum subsidy?

3:46:05Are we looking at maximum density?

3:46:09For me, there's a lot of questions here

3:46:11and I'm trying to understand.

3:46:13If we just say go and do a request

3:46:15for expression of interest,

3:46:16I don't know what's in that expression of interest.

3:46:19Yeah, I'm not through the mayor.

3:46:21I'm not sure how things are down here in Guelph,

3:46:23but given the interest in this, in the concerns,

3:46:27I think what we would do is develop an expression

3:46:31of interest with the criteria

3:46:33and probably bring that back to council

3:46:35for input and approval.

3:46:44Thank you, Billings.

3:46:48Please, thank you, Ron.

3:46:51Well, through you, Mr. Mayor,

3:46:53my question was the comment in the report

3:46:56about the land inventory report coming back.

3:46:59Maybe I'm incorrect,

3:47:00but I thought it said it would be coming back

3:47:02in January of 2025 and then today I'm hearing,

3:47:06oh, well, Q1, which doesn't necessarily mean January.

3:47:11So I was just wondering if there was,

3:47:14or could be a strong commitment from staff that it would,

3:47:16that report would be back to council by January,

3:47:21only because I'm struggling as well.

3:47:24And I don't think we're looking at this issue holistically.

3:47:28It would give me more comfort

3:47:30if we had that city land inventory report in front of us.

3:47:34So is it possible that you could commit to January or not?

3:47:44Yeah, through the mayor, as I said,

3:47:46we'll finish the work at the end of this year

3:47:47and we can commit to January to bring the report back.

3:47:51Okay, thank you.

3:47:54Thank you, Coran.

3:47:57Yeah, thank you.

3:47:59Like most of you, I mean, my comments are summary comments.

3:48:02I did send potential motion to defer to clerks.

3:48:08I'm not kind of centering on a table that right now

3:48:10because I do wanna hear where this discussion is going

3:48:13and I do wanna hear the summary comments

3:48:15of all of my colleagues before making that decision.

3:48:18But for me, one of the important components here

3:48:22is that we do have these studies

3:48:24as councillor Billings outlined coming back,

3:48:26the citywide inventory,

3:48:28as well as the housing affordability strategy.

3:48:31And those are key pieces of data-driven

3:48:33and community engagement pieces

3:48:35for part of this decision making in my mind.

3:48:38That aside, I do wanna address my comments

3:48:42specifically to the use of parkland.

3:48:44And we're told by the province,

3:48:47we're told that the housing support symposium

3:48:49and we're told by the development industry

3:48:52that the barrier to building more housing

3:48:54is red tape infrastructure, labor and materials

3:48:57and high interest rates

3:48:58and never has it been about lack of land.

3:49:01So when we talk about parkland as an underutilized asset,

3:49:06I get, I really, it's not an underutilized asset ever.

3:49:12Our own staff have told us that we're in a deficit

3:49:14and that it's only getting worse.

3:49:16Unprogrammed does not mean underutilized.

3:49:19The passive parkland serves a wide variety of functions,

3:49:23notably groundwater recharge,

3:49:25which water watchers certainly outlined in their presentation.

3:49:29Parkland in my mind doesn't belong to the corporation

3:49:32as a real estate holding.

3:49:34Belongs to the people of Guelph

3:49:36and we are merely the entrusted stewards and caretakers.

3:49:40Parkland is a social contract.

3:49:43And if we start developing parkland,

3:49:46we need to acknowledge that our development community

3:49:49or private development community has failed.

3:49:52If the private sector cannot deliver the housing we need

3:49:56and as a result of that,

3:49:57the city is now going to act in the role of developer,

3:50:00a real estate developer,

3:50:02then we have officially crossed that lane

3:50:04into a new business model.

3:50:06We are now developers.

3:50:08Are we sure we really want to go there?

3:50:11And whether parkland will actually address the housing crisis,

3:50:15I'm not convinced

3:50:16because I don't have any evidence to support that.

3:50:19In fact, what I do have evidence for

3:50:21is that we have 6,000 units in backlog.

3:50:24And that means that diverting the infrastructure

3:50:27to these sites in the report

3:50:29means that our planned capital infrastructure

3:50:32on other sites is going to have to be deferred.

3:50:34And those other sites are zoned and ready

3:50:37for residential development.

3:50:40I think rezoning any green space

3:50:43and issuing an REOI development without any evidence

3:50:48that it is needed is actually what happened last year

3:50:50with Premier Ford's Greenbelt Giveaway scandal.

3:50:55Those reports showed that land was not needed

3:50:57to address critical housing supply

3:50:59and the public outcry later resulted

3:51:02in the Greenbelt land scheme being rescinded

3:51:06by the provincial government.

3:51:08We also learned during the housing continuum study

3:51:11that our critical need in the community

3:51:14is social and supportive housing.

3:51:15And if that's the case,

3:51:16the only questionable course of action

3:51:19would be a public partnership with the county

3:51:23to build social housing or to offer a land lease

3:51:27in public housing development.

3:51:30I think affordability is a red herring.

3:51:32I think 10% lower than market value

3:51:35does not address our local needs.

3:51:37And for me, in terms of a planning context,

3:51:40we just passed motions at council

3:51:42to allow forplexes to go ahead

3:51:44and to expedite arterial road density.

3:51:47And we haven't even allowed,

3:51:50you know, six months, let alone a year

3:51:53to see that work unfold.

3:51:55We have one of the highest housing starts in the province,

3:51:58the city of Guelph,

3:51:58and kudos to us and our planning staff,

3:52:00which is why we're getting the funding

3:52:02from the president at the press

3:52:03and the province to expedite our infrastructure.

3:52:07So today we're talking about expediency.

3:52:09And expediency to address the crisis,

3:52:12I think in my opinion is being used as a justification

3:52:15for this report moving forward quickly.

3:52:17And expediency should never be the substitute

3:52:20for informed decision-making.

3:52:22Crisis is not a word that I take lightly.

3:52:25And we passed a motion recognizing a climate crisis.

3:52:29And our climate decisions make affordability,

3:52:33affect affordability even more

3:52:36than this motion before us today.

3:52:38And yet we don't move our climate change actions forward

3:52:40at the lightning speed that we're doing so today.

3:52:43So again, I'd like to hear what my colleagues have to say

3:52:47and I may come back around to a motion to defer

3:52:50because I really do think we need the housing affordability

3:52:54strategy work to be completed before we go forward

3:52:57with any actions on the recommendations on the floor.

3:53:03Thank you.

3:53:06Last on my list here is Cawson.

3:53:09And then I see you lots of other hands.

3:53:13Yes, actually thank you.

3:53:15And thank you to my colleagues for their questions

3:53:19because I too am struggling a little bit with this one.

3:53:23But I'm gonna start with a question

3:53:25and not go to comment straight away.

3:53:27I do have a question around the models

3:53:31and what kind of agreements we are familiar with

3:53:35in this type of construction of nonprofit

3:53:39and cooperative housing on public land specifically.

3:53:43Would this necessarily have to be a sale

3:53:46or could there be a long-term lease in place?

3:53:52Through the chair, we could look at both.

3:53:57Thank you.

3:54:00Yeah, I think I'm, can I make a comment?

3:54:02Yeah, so like my colleagues, I'm not a fan

3:54:06of taking away public land from the public,

3:54:11particularly park land.

3:54:13I am struggling because we do, you know,

3:54:18as my colleague, Councillor Kerron said,

3:54:21we do have a housing crisis.

3:54:22And so I don't want to take away from the idea

3:54:27that we should be looking at all types of solutions.

3:54:31And I think this is a good example

3:54:33of looking at different types of solutions.

3:54:36I do have concerns that the first,

3:54:41the items on the menu tonight are parks.

3:54:44I think it brings a controversial lens to the subject,

3:54:49which I think is in its spirit good.

3:54:52I think we should be looking at public lands.

3:54:55We really should be and we should be leading in the space

3:54:58and we should be encouraging our private sector partners

3:55:01to also be looking at their land

3:55:03and looking at more projects like Kindle

3:55:05and how they can be leaders in the space.

3:55:07I am a bit disappointed that we're talking about parks

3:55:11because, you know, now we've got our residents

3:55:14who are frustrated and upset

3:55:15because they feel like we're taking something away from them.

3:55:18Whereas, you know, I think there could be other options

3:55:21that, you know, are less controversial.

3:55:24So that's where I currently stand.

3:55:26I'm happy we're having this conversation.

3:55:30We need to be having these conversations.

3:55:32They're hard conversations to have.

3:55:34And I'm still on the fence here too.

3:55:39So I look forward to all of those other hands

3:55:42that went up as well.

3:55:45Thank you.

3:55:46Bousatil and then Gawar.

3:55:48Thank you.

3:55:49I'm just going to say ditto to Councillor Caron

3:55:52and Councillor Klassen and Councillor Oroch's comments

3:55:56and thank them for that.

3:55:57I did have written down a steward of park lands,

3:56:00you know, as an immigrant, I go back home to countries

3:56:04where there is no public land.

3:56:06If you go to a beach, there's no place publicly to sit down.

3:56:11All the chairs and umbrellas are all privatized on the beach.

3:56:15So this is really important to me.

3:56:18So for me, the answer is quite clearly no.

3:56:21Hands off the parks.

3:56:22Full stop.

3:56:23Hands off the parks.

3:56:25Because I take that quite seriously as a steward.

3:56:28When I look around the city, what I see in developments

3:56:32aren't neighborhood parks.

3:56:33They're parkettes that are half the size of a lot

3:56:37with maybe a bench there and a little playground.

3:56:41They are not sufficient for the health and well-being

3:56:43of those communities.

3:56:45And with reference to Councillor Oroch's,

3:56:47Sleiman Park is in one of the four priority neighborhoods

3:56:50in the city of Guelph.

3:56:52And we can do like City of Toronto poverty by postal code.

3:56:55And so I'm very concerned about saying a value judgment

3:57:00that a park isn't used when we're not systemically looking

3:57:04at well, why is it used?

3:57:06And what I hear from the families there

3:57:08is that they can't get to it safely.

3:57:11So I'm very concerned about that.

3:57:12So for me, I will not be supporting any use of parks.

3:57:16And I really wish and encourage Councillor Caron

3:57:19to put her deferral to Q1 January when we have the full picture

3:57:25here, then we can have a conversation.

3:57:28Now, with that low hanging fruit in these neighborhoods,

3:57:32I am completely opposed to doing that.

3:57:35Parks, our health, well-being, mental health,

3:57:38and part of our community ecosystem.

3:57:42So I cannot support Parkland at all.

3:57:47Great.

3:57:47Thank you.

3:57:49Guller than Chew.

3:57:51Thank you, Chair Worship.

3:57:54I had a question about why we put in affordable housing

3:57:59supposed to senior housing or student housing.

3:58:01And I understand that's the direction that was given to staff.

3:58:05So that was answered.

3:58:07I have sent an amendment to the clerks

3:58:10that I would like to move.

3:58:12And it is to add, in addition to the two parks,

3:58:15to add the word city parking lots.

3:58:19And to replace the word affordable housing

3:58:22with the words government-owned social housing

3:58:25or co-op housing.

3:58:26So that we make it clear that this could not

3:58:30be a private development that has 80% of market costs.

3:58:36So that it limits to us retaining the land.

3:58:42And I will wait until it's up on the screen

3:58:45and see if I get a seconder on this motion.

3:58:49I don't see a seconder.

3:58:52So if I could just maybe make a comment

3:58:55to help out.

3:58:56I'm sorry.

3:58:58Councillor Chew, are you seconding that?

3:59:00I'll second it so we can.

3:59:04OK.

3:59:05OK.

3:59:09May I just jump in?

3:59:10Just for my thoughts.

3:59:11And staff, please jump in.

3:59:13But the development-ready sites at city parking lots,

3:59:20that was already undertaken by staff.

3:59:23And it's still being undertaken by them anyways

3:59:26in the upcoming report.

3:59:28So that's number one.

3:59:29Number two, in regards to how you're trying to scope things,

3:59:33I would say that if council would agree to actually moving