Councillor Allt called a Point of Order, asking that their comments be considered while a motion was on the floor. Mayor Guthrie ruled in favour of… be received

1:59:19And yet, what is before you today is an option

1:59:21to remove some park land in an effort

1:59:23to respond to the housing crisis.

1:59:26This is definitely, I can assure you,

1:59:28not where staff thought we'd end up

1:59:30when we started this exercise.

1:59:32And as staff, we too are torn on this as well.

1:59:35But given the urgency to the housing crisis,

1:59:38this report's been brought forward to you today

1:59:41to respond to the mayor oral direction

1:59:43in which Mayor Guthrie recognizes

1:59:45that difficult times may call for difficult decisions

1:59:48and taking action on this file is paramount.

1:59:52So staff reviewed over 30 city-owned sites.

1:59:55We also met with the province to understand

1:59:56they had any available lands or underutilized sites

1:59:59of which they do not.

2:00:01We looked at all the sites, the city and the province owns

2:00:04and reviewed all the information that was readily available.

2:00:09But we did have a limited timeframe.

2:00:11So Luke's gonna get into the additional details.

2:00:15But what we want you to know is sometimes

2:00:17what you see as a parking lot has made your sanitary

2:00:20or water infrastructure beneath it.

2:00:23Or perhaps there's an environmental condition

2:00:25that requires more study.

2:00:27There may be restrictive covenants registered on title

2:00:29that require more research.

2:00:32Or it could simply be that there's no infrastructure

2:00:34capacity at that location to support additional development.

2:00:38So that's really how staff landed on these two sites

2:00:41that are before you today.

2:00:43Should you choose to move forward with a site or sites

2:00:45as outlined in the report, there's more work to be done.

2:00:49We have to undertake geotechnical investigations

2:00:52along with that minimum of phase one environmental

2:00:55as well as property surveys and reviewing

2:00:58what planning applications would be required.

2:01:01At the same time, we'd be developing a request

2:01:04for expressions of interest.

2:01:06And to be clear, we'd be recommending that the requirement

2:01:09would be for affordable medium density residential units,

2:01:12not single family homes, not duplexes, not town homes

2:01:17unless it was of a higher density.

2:01:20And not condos or markets that would be at market rate

2:01:24so it'd be affordable.

2:01:26And we know from the report, State of Housing and Guelph

2:01:31that we need bachelors in single bedroom apartments.

2:01:35So we want to look towards fulfilling that need.

2:01:38And the goal would be for the city to provide the land

2:01:42in addition to the development charge exemptions

2:01:44as per Bill 185, really to provide an opportunity

2:01:48for affordable units for a minimum of at least 25 years.

2:01:53So we know that there's a housing crisis in Guelph.

2:01:55And in addition to what's before you today,

2:01:57we have many irons in the fire as a staff team.

2:02:01With your direction, we're working on several initiatives

2:02:04utilizing the Housing Accelerator Fund

2:02:07that was recently received by the city.

2:02:09We've been fortunate enough to attract two housing experts

2:02:14to our city team here, Kushla Matthews and Anthony Dolcetti.

2:02:18And they're solely focused on housing issues.

2:02:21In addition to that, we'll be bringing

2:02:22for an affordable housing community improvement plan

2:02:25with financial incentives to council in November.

2:02:29Our planning services team is leading the development

2:02:31of an incentive program for accessory dwelling units

2:02:34and developing a request for proposal

2:02:37for housing, an affordable housing demonstration project.

2:02:41So under your direction, when we leave here today,

2:02:43we'll continue our inventory of city-owned lands

2:02:46with additional analysis and review.

2:02:48And we hope to complete that work by the end of the year

2:02:50with a subsequent report to council.

2:02:53So I'm gonna turn it over to Luke now to walk you through

2:02:55what we've done to date.

2:03:11Thank you, Garrett.

2:03:12And thank you, James.

2:03:13My name is Luke Jefferson.

2:03:14I am the Strategic Property Advisor here at the city of Guelph.

2:03:18On February 28th, 2024,

2:03:21staff received Merrill Direction B3,

2:03:24Strategic Real Estate Partnerships

2:03:25on Underutilized City-Own Assets.

2:03:28The following is a brief overview of the report

2:03:30and findings to date.

2:03:35Garrett, would you mind advancing that slide?

2:03:40This is a map that shows preliminary information

2:03:43on the city of Guelph's land holdings.

2:03:46This will be refined and reported to council in Q1, 2025.

2:03:50This work will be a deeper dive into city assets

2:03:53and will include an evaluation framework

2:03:56which will help identify sites

2:03:58for future development of city services

2:04:01and sites that could be candidates

2:04:03for residential development.

2:04:05Regarding the report itself,

2:04:07staff identified sites that would have significant impact

2:04:10to core service levels and eliminated them

2:04:12from consideration for this level of review.

2:04:16These are sites that if temporarily closed or impacted

2:04:19would create safety or significant community impacts.

2:04:23These typically include frontline operational sites

2:04:26like waste management, transit,

2:04:28emergency services and operations.

2:04:31These were all eliminated from consideration.

2:04:42When looking at the broad inventory

2:04:44and evaluating the direction,

2:04:45there are three key facts that are important to consider

2:04:48if we want to achieve affordable and fast construction.

2:04:54Number one is affordable rentals

2:04:55require affordable construction.

2:04:58If it is expensive to build, it will be expensive to rent.

2:05:03Density will help affordability.

2:05:05Adjacent development informs density capacity.

2:05:08Sites in low density neighborhoods

2:05:11will have servicing capacity for low density development.

2:05:14If we want affordable housing options,

2:05:16we need to target higher density neighborhoods

2:05:18that have capacity for growth.

2:05:21Number three is technical challenges are solvable.

2:05:24However, they take time and investment.

2:05:27Sites that have technical challenges

2:05:29like what James mentioned,

2:05:30buried infrastructure that have an industrial history,

2:05:33have challenging land designations

2:05:35or other issues that require technical work

2:05:38that will require technical work and will take time.

2:05:41They cannot be developed quickly.

2:05:47So to action the mayoral directive,

2:05:49staff began with parking lot review.

2:05:51This included 14 parking sites

2:05:53with a focus on parking lots

2:05:55that either forecast intensification

2:05:57or appear to be underutilized or underdeveloped.

2:06:01This included all downtown surface parking lots.

2:06:04As James mentioned, many sites are impacted

2:06:07by buried infrastructure

2:06:09that require significant capital investment

2:06:11and time to relocate or have a history of use

2:06:14that requires a record of site condition.

2:06:17Wherever these issues exist,

2:06:19they will take significant capital investment

2:06:21or time to resolve.

2:06:23This does not mean they cannot be developed.

2:06:25It means that they cannot be developed quickly or affordably.

2:06:29These higher costs will be passed on to end renters

2:06:31or buyers and impact affordability.

2:06:35Some city sites may be developable,

2:06:37however, are required to support projects

2:06:39like downtown renewal and cannot be developed

2:06:41without impacting other growth commitments.

2:06:45Other sites are located in low density neighborhoods

2:06:47that have servicing capacity for low density development.

2:06:50This model of development is unlikely to be affordable.

2:06:57So if you go back to the key three facts

2:06:59around affordability and time,

2:07:01it points us to unencumbered green table

2:07:04and development sites.

2:07:06Underutilized parks are the best opportunity

2:07:08to develop affordably and develop quickly.

2:07:12However, development using current parks

2:07:15will result in the permanent loss of parkland.

2:07:18This presents a problem with official plan

2:07:21park service targets.

2:07:22We know that as the city continues to grow,

2:07:25we will face increased park acquisition challenges

2:07:28to meet official plan park targets.

2:07:30This was identified through the Parkland

2:07:32Dedication Bylaw updates,

2:07:34the approval of the park plan

2:07:35and the Parks and Recreation Master Plan

2:07:37and remains true today.

2:07:42Staff have identified two sites

2:07:44that can be developed quickly

2:07:46that have limited technical challenges

2:07:48and have existing servicing capacity

2:07:50to develop for residential use.

2:07:52As per the direction,

2:07:53these are presented to Council for consideration.

2:07:57Site one is a portion of Hugh Guthrie Park

2:07:59fronting onto Enboro Road.

2:08:02This site has no built amenities

2:08:03so there is no impact to park programming.

2:08:07This site can potentially accommodate medium density

2:08:10or about 30 to 40 units.

2:08:12Pending further work as James has outlined.

2:08:15It will result in the loss of several trees

2:08:18which would be dealt with in compliance with city policy.

2:08:21It will also result in the permanent loss

2:08:22of approximately 1.3 acres of parkland at this location.

2:08:31Site two is Sleiman Park.

2:08:34This site is located in a higher density neighborhood

2:08:36and has servicing capacity

2:08:37for medium to high density development,

2:08:39potentially up to 75 units.

2:08:42It will result in the permanent loss

2:08:44of about 1.5 acres of parkland

2:08:46and the loss of a baseball diamond.

2:08:49The development of a higher density site

2:08:51will come with a slightly higher community impact.

2:08:54The baseball diamond is currently booked

2:08:55about two nights a week

2:08:57and also sees casual non-booked usage

2:08:59by the local neighborhood.

2:09:02If this baseball diamond is taken offline

2:09:04to be developed for housing,

2:09:06park staff would work with any affected user group

2:09:09to explore relocating the bookings elsewhere.

2:09:16So pending further direction from Council

2:09:18on creating a development site,

2:09:20a park site will require an official plan amendment

2:09:22and rezoning application.

2:09:24Residential development is not permitted

2:09:26by the official plan on park sites.

2:09:29Parks are permitted to be sold under section 42

2:09:32of the Planning Act.

2:09:35And as James mentioned previously,

2:09:37a request for expression of interest

2:09:38to the development community

2:09:40for the development of affordable rental units

2:09:42will be issued following the planning approvals.

2:09:46More comprehensive information is included

2:09:48in the Council report.

2:09:49The city will continue to evaluate inventory

2:09:52and present this information to Council in Q1, 2025.

2:09:57This report is recommended for receipt

2:09:59and consideration of Council.

2:10:01Thank you.

2:10:04Thank you both for setting the context

2:10:07and the presentation, appreciate it.

2:10:10We do have a few delegations

2:10:12and so we'll start right away with Alana Hart.

2:10:16And Alana says here you're from the Central Ontario

2:10:21Cooperative Housing Federation.

2:10:23And then in the wings we have Susan Watson

2:10:25on the phone that will be joining us.

2:10:28You have up to five minutes.

2:10:29So you'll hear a chime at the four minute 30 second mark

2:10:32as a warning that you have 30 seconds left

2:10:34and just stick around in case there's any questions, okay?

2:10:36But I'll turn the mic over to you, go right ahead.

2:10:39Thank you so much.

2:10:40Thank you, Council.

2:10:41Thank you for this opportunity.

2:10:42Speak to this matter here today.

2:10:44First of all, I wanna commend all Councillors

2:10:47in looking for ways and endeavoring

2:10:49to create more affordable housing in the city of wealth.

2:10:53This is a remarkable time for everyone,

2:10:55particularly since the affordable housing crisis

2:10:57is so apparent and at the forefront of everyone's thoughts.

2:11:01Also, from our point of view, it's also a remarkable time

2:11:04because the federal government did release $1.5 billion

2:11:08for cooperative development, which provides opportunities

2:11:11that we had not seen before.

2:11:12In fact, we have not seen this level of funding

2:11:15for cooperative housing in 30 years or more.

2:11:18So this is the perfect time to be undertaking

2:11:21this type of work and this study.

2:11:22So thank you so much.

2:11:24As Executive Director of the Central Ontario

2:11:25Cooperative Housing Federation,

2:11:27I do wanna speak to a matter that's related to this report

2:11:30and that's in the fact that most or often

2:11:33some affordable housing, but there seems to be

2:11:35a time limit on it, that we say it's 20 years, 10 years,

2:11:3925 years, whatever it may be.

2:11:41So I would encourage everyone here to think about

2:11:43what the impact that will be on the folks

2:11:44who actually move into those buildings,

2:11:46that if you're actually going to build the building,

2:11:48it should be in perpetuity, it should be permanent

2:11:51affordable housing and that's where we come in.

2:11:53Because cooperative housing is a nonprofit housing provider,

2:11:57it's permanent housing.

2:11:59There is no sale, there is no change in the structure,

2:12:03there is no change in the mandate, that's what we do.

2:12:06So Central Ontario, for example,

2:12:08has 42 member organizations.

2:12:11In Guelph we have seven co-ops already

2:12:14and that represents about 500 units,

2:12:16so maybe 750 people.

2:12:20Throughout our entire Federation,

2:12:21which has five different cities in it, it's about 5,000.

2:12:25So we're asking for us at this time, because one,

2:12:29we have access to this funding that is not available

2:12:31to developers, it's not available except to

2:12:35cooperative housing providers and land trusts.

2:12:37So we're looking at co-ops and land trusts,

2:12:39that we would be able to be part of your conversation

2:12:42as you move through this process

2:12:43and maybe have some input and be involved in some way.

2:12:47Two minutes, 54 seconds, how is that?

2:12:51Okay, well, is that your time?

2:12:53Okay, I just wanted to make sure, all right, thank you.

2:12:55Is there any follow-up questions at all?

2:12:57Okay, Councillor Chew and then a work.

2:13:01Thank you, through you Mr. Mayor.

2:13:02Thank you for your delegation.

2:13:04I'm just reading your letter here

2:13:06and you talked about the Housing Now program in Toronto

2:13:09and you mentioned Kingston, Witt,

2:13:11viewer city owned land was utilized for co-op housing.

2:13:17I was wondering if you have any more examples

2:13:18that you could share with us here.

2:13:20I do, in fact.

2:13:21How many would you like?

2:13:22No, okay, so one of the things that we're working on

2:13:25right now, Cochev is working on in collaboration

2:13:28with the County of Brant, is building a new,

2:13:30one of the first, actually it's the first co-op

2:13:33in the County of Brant.

2:13:35That's gonna be 35 units.

2:13:37It's specifically mandated for seniors

2:13:39because we recognize that seniors

2:13:40are particularly at risk at this time

2:13:43and because we recognize that seniors

2:13:44who are currently in the co-op program

2:13:46mean they live in cooperatives now

2:13:49are typically or often are over housed

2:13:51and they can no longer live in those units

2:13:53because they have physical reasons

2:13:55why they can't make those stairs,

2:13:56why they can no longer live comfortably.

2:13:58So with the County of Brant, we're working with them.

2:14:01They have provided the land

2:14:02and we're working through the program

2:14:04to be able to build this new, brand new,

2:14:08cooperative at 50 High Street.

2:14:13Thank you, Councillor O'Rourke, please.

2:14:16Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

2:14:17I've got a couple of questions for the delegate.

2:14:19I moved to Guelph to work for the cooperator

2:14:21so very familiar with the co-op model

2:14:24and think it's certainly part of the solution.

2:14:28The sticking point for us today is gonna be

2:14:30on whether we should use park land for this or not.

2:14:33So our staff just said they're coming back in Q1 2025

2:14:39with more sites potentially.

2:14:42So in the scheme of a development timeline,

2:14:46how critical would those six months be?

2:14:51From my understanding, not as critical as we think,

2:14:54the first window for the program opens

2:14:56July 15th and closes in September

2:14:58with the expectation that we'll see

2:15:00at least a second window in early 2025.

2:15:03So I think that we are still within the timeline

2:15:06to be able to access funding

2:15:07and there's other programs as well.

2:15:10I'm hesitant to speak to the green space

2:15:12because I understand where the debate is going to be.

2:15:16But when I looked at the report,

2:15:17there were a number of other sites and other possibilities

2:15:19that were gonna be part of this report in the end.

2:15:21So where one might be a little more difficult

2:15:25to actually wrap our heads around,

2:15:26the other ones may be a little more agreeable.

2:15:28Right.

2:15:29So through you, Mayor Guthrie.

2:15:33My other question is some folks maybe are not familiar

2:15:36with the co-op model.

2:15:37There's different types of co-ops, worker co-ops, et cetera.

2:15:40There's some very high-end co-ops.

2:15:42Can you help us understand how the co-op model

2:15:45makes the units affordable and perpetuity?

2:15:48Why is that?

2:15:49Sure, thank you.

2:15:54Cooperatives are a mixed community,

2:15:55meaning that the cooperatives are based on a model

2:15:58where some of the units would be subsidized to some degree,

2:16:03meaning they're paying much less

2:16:04than what would be considered affordable rent or market rent.

2:16:07And the rest of the units are also kind of subsidized

2:16:10because in the model, because there's no profit to be made,

2:16:13all of the monies go back into the co-op to work towards

2:16:16operations to do the capital work that's done.

2:16:18So that profit margin doesn't exist,

2:16:21which allows the members, we don't call them tenants,

2:16:24the members to be able to live affordably.

2:16:27So are affordable is probably 80% of average market rent,

2:16:31and that would be the top of what they would pay

2:16:32even if they're not on subsidy.

2:16:34Subsidy's a whole different thing,

2:16:36which provides folks who really cannot afford to live anywhere

2:16:40the opportunity to live in a safe environment.

2:16:43The other thing that the co-op model does,

2:16:45there's seven principles I am not gonna bore you

2:16:47with all of that, sorry.

2:16:49But one of the things it does do is provide community.

2:16:51So when we talk about affordable housing,

2:16:54the other part of the equation that's really important

2:16:56is homes, is these folks will be living in spaces,

2:17:01and clean units, safe units in community,

2:17:04so that they're able to actually,

2:17:05one, be able to have a voice within their community,

2:17:08and autonomy is very important to cooperatives,

2:17:10the model itself is built on that,

2:17:13that the members have a voice,

2:17:14and the members make the decisions, right?

2:17:16They are in effect the landlord,

2:17:19even though there's other, you know,

2:17:20there's board of directors, et cetera, et cetera,

2:17:21it's a non-profit, that's the other part.

2:17:24It's a non-profit, it's a permanent non-profit housing

2:17:28provider, so that's the way that it would work through

2:17:30to say that this would be continuous,

2:17:32it's a permanent solution to the affordable housing issue.

2:17:39Great, thank you, seeing nothing further at this time.

2:17:42Oh, I'm sorry, Councillor Prasad, I apologize, go ahead.

2:17:45Yes, thank you, Elena, for the presentation.

2:17:47I'm extensively immersed in cooperatives.

2:17:50So just a little bit, if you can tell me about your access

2:17:54to the funding, the federal funding,

2:17:56because I've been watching that as well,

2:17:58is that funding for land purchase,

2:18:01or is the model, your housing model,

2:18:05assuming that land is given at below market, or so,

2:18:10and can you talk a little bit about the acquisition of land?

2:18:13So I think in an ideal situation,

2:18:15that the land would be provided,

2:18:17we all would like that, free land is good land,

2:18:19but in the program, it doesn't delineate between development

2:18:23costs, construction costs, and land,

2:18:25so the funding is available for the project as a whole.

2:18:30Thank you.

2:18:33Great, really appreciate your presentation.

2:18:35Thank you so much.

2:18:36Thank you so much.

2:18:38Next is on the phone, Susan Watson,

2:18:41and go right ahead to see if your audio works.

2:18:46Hi, Mayor Guthrie, can you hear me?

2:18:48Yes, you're coming through fine, thank you.

2:18:49I'll turn it over to you.

2:18:52Yeah, let's hope this all serves hold.

2:18:54Mayor Guthrie and members of council,

2:18:57I'm concerned that a housing crisis,

2:18:59which was created by advocating responsibly for housing

2:19:02to the private sector over a 30 year period,

2:19:06is being used as a premise to serve

2:19:07at public assets to developers,

2:19:10whether that's our property tax dollars,

2:19:12subsidizing development charges,

2:19:14giving up our conservation areas or our parks.

2:19:18Clearly the problem is not a shortage of land

2:19:20for housing or city hall bureaucracy.

2:19:23There are almost 6,000 units approved

2:19:26on our short-term horizon.

2:19:27On the long-term horizon,

2:19:29we have an almost 18-year supply of land

2:19:31for housing.

2:19:34What we do have is an abject failure of the private sector

2:19:37to deliver affordable housing.

2:19:39And we have a lack of vision and a dress of foresight

2:19:41on the part of city hall.

2:19:44A former council under Mayor Guthrie

2:19:47dropped the ball with the opportunity

2:19:48to acquire the turf assets to choose in the reformatory.

2:19:52And we could have had land for affordable housing,

2:19:54parks, and a hospital.

2:19:57And where is city hall with the 20 acres of GRCA land

2:20:01in the NISCA area, which is owned for housing

2:20:03and is on the cusp of being declared surplus?

2:20:07City of 12 tax dollars covered 40%

2:20:11of the entire NISCA land purchased in 1977.

2:20:15So 40% of that 28 per parcel is eight hectares,

2:20:20or eight acres of land,

2:20:22which is likely now worth $8 million in today's dollars.

2:20:28And that's land that we pay for.

2:20:31Is city hall going to sleepwalk through this entire process

2:20:34and let that public land end up in the hands of developers

2:20:38who is protecting our interest and our investment?

2:20:43If the issue is housing supply,

2:20:45why are we not bringing in a vacancy tax

2:20:48like other cities have done?

2:20:50Why are we not combining housing and parking

2:20:53along with a recryan- combining housing with parking

2:20:56and the reclamation center

2:20:58on top of the South End Recreation Center?

2:21:02I'm concerned that after 10 years of governing,

2:21:06the mayor appears unable to hold the big picture.

2:21:10We have a looming parkland shortage of 174 hectares

2:21:14by 19, by 2051.

2:21:17And that was before Doug Ford cut in half

2:21:20the amount that parkland dedication

2:21:22the developers need to give for high density buildings.

2:21:27Sleiman Park is one of the areas of the city

2:21:31with the least number of parks in relation to park pollution.

2:21:35We have clearly no money available to buy new parks.

2:21:40We're in a situation where we're not going to need

2:21:42our tree canopy targets by 2031

2:21:46for climate change mitigation.

2:21:48So if we have unused areas of parks,

2:21:51we should be using that for tree planting

2:21:53because we've heard from staff

2:21:55that we don't have enough public land

2:21:57to meet our goals for tree planting.

2:22:00And I think the most important thing is

2:22:02that our city has already zoned for housing

2:22:06beyond our capacity to supply water for 2051.

2:22:10Former CAO's Scott Stewart said that we were in a position

2:22:14where if you approved housing

2:22:18in the innovation district to conversion

2:22:20from employment lands, which you did,

2:22:22that we were going to be to subtract housing somewhere else.

2:22:26And if we exceed our water budget,

2:22:28then we are looking at pipes to late year,

2:22:32which 20 years ago was going to be in $8 billion cost.

2:22:37So I don't think the issue seems to be a shortage of land

2:22:41that is zoned for housing,

2:22:43but perhaps we're at the point where

2:22:45a consideration of council needs to be

2:22:48perhaps even expropriation of land

2:22:50for cooperative housing or partnership with Wellington County

2:22:54or an organization like Habitat for Human.

2:22:57It's clearly the problem is that it's not land,

2:23:00but it's who owns it and how it's being used.

2:23:03Thank you.

2:23:06Okay, thank you.

2:23:07Is there any questions for the deli?

2:23:10Hearing and seeing none, thank you very much.

2:23:13And speaking of Habitat for Humanity,

2:23:18Ryan Deskas here to bring forward a delegation.

2:23:23Welcome Ryan, I'll turn the mic over to you

2:23:25whenever you're ready.

2:23:29Thank you, Mayor Guthrie, councillors and staff.

2:23:34Here today, we all understand the need

2:23:36to find housing solutions.

2:23:38The housing crisis has become an all too familiar conversation

2:23:41from our living rooms to our council chambers.

2:23:45For those living in need of housing,

2:23:46it's always remains front and center and top of mind.

2:23:50So today's conversations are encouraging.

2:23:54I'm here today speaking on behalf of Habitat

2:23:56for Humanity, Guelph Wellington.

2:23:58With over 30 years of building alongside

2:24:00our community partners, Habitat has brought

2:24:03over 49 affordable homes to our community.

2:24:06Today Habitat Guelph Wellington is actively building

2:24:09and with projects underway that promise

2:24:11to bring over 200 units online in the next three years.

2:24:15And we have ambitions to grow beyond that.

2:24:18So we understand firsthand many of the challenges ahead.

2:24:22Much has certainly changed since we began 30 years ago,

2:24:25but it's safe to say that the need has never been greater.

2:24:28I would like to applaud the city and staff

2:24:31for everything they've been doing thus far

2:24:33and for answering the call from the community

2:24:36to explore what more could be done.

2:24:39So what's the opportunity?

2:24:47We know there's work to be done across the board

2:24:49from all levels of government to builders,

2:24:52to not-for-profits, to housing providers.

2:24:54But we're having the conversation here today

2:24:56because there's been a willingness

2:24:59from the leadership in the community to step up

2:25:02and ask what is possible for the city

2:25:05to move the bar forward in its own way on housing.

2:25:09And I would venture to say the underlying principle

2:25:11of today's conversation is in and of itself good and important.

2:25:17The exploration of city-owned lands and city-owned processes

2:25:21in order to facilitate and encourage action

2:25:24on affordable housing solutions.

2:25:27Put simply, there are few reasons why land

2:25:29is a really great place to start.

2:25:32The first, land, as it's been discussed

2:25:34with necessary approvals, is expensive

2:25:36and particularly hard to come by,

2:25:39especially for those of us who are actively

2:25:41building affordable housing today.

2:25:44So finding land is important to bring down

2:25:46the cost of housing.

2:25:48The second is that land can be a catalyst

2:25:51to not only build more, but to build better,

2:25:55more balanced communities.

2:25:57It can bring people together from across the housing

2:25:59continuum around a common objective or a common project.

2:26:03And where there's shared ownership in a problem,

2:26:06it means there's a shared investment in problem solving.

2:26:10So there's certainly a natural leadership role for cities,

2:26:13not just the city of Guelph,

2:26:15in making land available that's ready for development.

2:26:17And on this front, our conversation today

2:26:20finds us all in good company.

2:26:22Two examples that are top of mind,

2:26:24the city of Kitchener has recently donated

2:26:26a parcel of land to Habitat for Humanity,

2:26:29one hectare or close to two and a half acres in size

2:26:32worth roughly five and a half million dollars.

2:26:35In Windsor, Ontario, city council recently voted

2:26:38to pursue missing middle housing

2:26:40on eight municipally owned properties.

2:26:42And as a special mention, many of us came together last week

2:26:46to celebrate all of the community wide efforts

2:26:48that brought 10 Shelldale through to fruition.

2:26:51And notably, there was a donation of land

2:26:53that was at the heart of that,

2:26:55that helped organize the efforts.

2:27:00These examples are all commendable efforts

2:27:01to encourage action on housing solutions

2:27:04and they show that it can be done here at home.

2:27:06But making land available is not the end of the road.

2:27:09I might respectfully challenge a suggestion

2:27:12that one specific type of housing

2:27:15is what's appropriate for these properties today.

2:27:17We all know that principles of good community design

2:27:21call for a mix of balanced social and economic backgrounds

2:27:25in order to create vibrant and healthy communities.

2:27:28And it would be our suggestion

2:27:30that we won't get where we need to be as a community

2:27:32if we continue to compartmentalize

2:27:34an individual housing solution for an individual project.

2:27:38Land, if properly managed, is a natural platform

2:27:42to bring organizations, community leaders, governments,

2:27:46new ideas all together around a common goal

2:27:49and be a true catalyst for action on housing.

2:27:52So from Habitat's perspective,

2:27:54we believe in balanced communities,

2:27:57in balanced community design.

2:27:59And I would venture that we have a proven track record

2:28:02of creating these types of bridges

2:28:04across the housing continuum in our past work

2:28:07and in our work today and in our work going forward.

2:28:10So we all know that good planning is important for our city.

2:28:13We all know that action is needed.

2:28:15We all know that not every solution is going to be perfect.

2:28:18But fundamentally, this is a prime example

2:28:21of why we need, particularly for affordable housing,

2:28:25to all be sitting down together at the table,

2:28:27the city, the not-for-profit housing providers,

2:28:31the developers, to look at how can we make this happen,

2:28:35not why it's not gonna work.

2:28:37Okay, thank you so much.

2:28:38I'll just cut you off there.

2:28:39Sorry, it's your five minutes,

2:28:40but Councillor Oroarke and then Councillor Caron, please.

2:28:46Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

2:28:47Through you to Mr. Desca.

2:28:49Thank you for your presentation

2:28:50and for all the work you're doing in the city.

2:28:52It's appreciated.

2:28:54I'm just wondering, you mentioned,

2:28:55I think Kitchener and Windsor,

2:28:57who have done sort of a land donation

2:29:00or arrangement of some kind.

2:29:01Do you happen to know if those were parks

2:29:04or if they were other lands?

2:29:08My understanding of the Kitchener site

2:29:11is that it was a piece of land

2:29:13that was slated for residential development already.

2:29:16In Windsor, I'm not sure.

2:29:18They were eight municipally-owned properties.

2:29:20And so certainly in speaking to the principle

2:29:25of what the city is exploring today and the merits of that,

2:29:28I would commend the impetus towards action.

2:29:33As to whether it's a park specifically,

2:29:36I can't comment on if that's sort of what is best, I guess.

2:29:40Okay, so three, Mayor Guthrie.

2:29:42I'm just curious.

2:29:45We are gonna get a different list in five or six months

2:29:50that will potentially have better amenities,

2:29:53maybe space for more units.

2:29:56And so I'm just wondering what you think about

2:30:00the need to make a decision today

2:30:03or at the end of the month, really,

2:30:04where we validate the discussion.

2:30:07Is it better to have the full menu of possibilities

2:30:12in a couple of months in order to make better decisions?

2:30:17In reviewing the report, I would say today,

2:30:20it's better not to throw the BB out with the bathwater.

2:30:24And in saying that is that there's a certain proposal

2:30:27there on the table.

2:30:28I think certainly the amount of lands

2:30:32that are currently allocated with the sort of rectangles

2:30:37around them on the overhead

2:30:40don't necessarily need to be as big as they are.

2:30:42Although building more housing, I think, is important.

2:30:46I think the other thing is that the reason we're here today

2:30:49is because someone took a leap and took action

2:30:53and tried to create a sense of urgency around this.

2:30:55And I say this with absolutely all due respect

2:30:58because I've been on both sides of the table.

2:31:00But continually pushing our decisions down the road

2:31:07to wait for another possible solution

2:31:09and another possible solution,

2:31:10there's a tendency in municipal government,

2:31:13in provincial government, in federal government

2:31:15for these types of processes to carry on

2:31:17over long periods of time.

2:31:19So I think that that's not necessarily a bad idea.

2:31:22I think there's likely some really great opportunities

2:31:26available in the city.

2:31:28I think it might be enlightening to review

2:31:31how long a development takes

2:31:33when the city starts reviewing it from their own perspective

2:31:36and to see what it's like for those on the other side

2:31:39of the table who are looking to move projects for themselves.

2:31:48So I guess I wouldn't want to quell a sense of urgency

2:31:52in terms of moving forward.

2:31:54In a completely unrelated but related matter,

2:31:59this has happened many years consecutively

2:32:02is that we start talking about homelessness

2:32:05and the situation around the state of people

2:32:08on the streets in the wintertime,

2:32:09usually around September.

2:32:11And then there's not time to get that moving forward.

2:32:14So that's just speaking about a timeline.

2:32:16If we don't start today, then when I guess.

2:32:20But I don't disagree that exploring some other solutions,

2:32:24other properties would likely be a responsible decision

2:32:29for sure.

2:32:29Okay, thanks.

2:32:32Thank you and Quran.

2:32:35Identical question.

2:32:38Okay, thank you.

2:32:40There's nothing further.

2:32:42Oh, Councillor Boussato.

2:32:45Forgotten twice.

2:32:46Thanks.

2:32:48Thank you very much for taking the time

2:32:50to come and speak to us.

2:32:51Through the mayor, just a question.

2:32:53I know the CSM for housing in the region of Waterloo

2:32:57is the region, obviously.

2:32:58Do you know who it is in Windsor?

2:33:01I don't know that no.

2:33:03Really just bringing that up as an example

2:33:05of that there's precedent of other cities

2:33:07who are exploring leveraging city owned lands,

2:33:10public lands, taxpayer lands

2:33:12towards affordable housing projects.

2:33:17All right, thank you.

2:33:18And for my last Councillor here asking a question,

2:33:21is Councillor Chew.

2:33:22Thank you Mayor Guthrie through you.

2:33:25Ryan, can you just speak to some examples

2:33:28of public private partnerships that you've been a part of

2:33:32in your role in Habitat and how you guys

2:33:35used the community design process with the public sector

2:33:39to scope out the appropriate housing typology

2:33:42that would be appropriate for, like say,

2:33:45what we're considering here today.

2:33:48Yeah, so around partnerships, I would say a philosophy

2:33:51that we have at our local affiliate anyways

2:33:53is that we want to see

2:33:57continuum wide representation on housing projects.

2:34:01And I mentioned that briefly,

2:34:02but to have all different types of housing

2:34:07represented in one project,

2:34:09and such that each of those are made viable

2:34:12by virtue of being together as part of one project.

2:34:16Some on Council might recall in 2017,

2:34:19prior to my joining Habitat,

2:34:22we did have an MOU to explore this type of vision

2:34:26within the city.

2:34:28And we did host a housing symposium

2:34:30that brought a number of different partners together

2:34:32from across the housing continuum.

2:34:35And there have been a number of projects

2:34:37that have kind of been offshoots of the conversations

2:34:39that happened in the room,

2:34:41but we were taking a leadership role in that respect.

2:34:44While the specific projects didn't move forward,

2:34:46we continue to move forward with that vision.

2:34:49On our city view village project

2:34:51that looks out over the penitentiary lands,

2:34:54very beautiful view.

2:34:58We did have a partnership with,

2:34:59we have worked with Wellington County

2:35:01on affordable rentals for that space,

2:35:03as well as community living.

2:35:05As a housing provider who provides housing

2:35:08for people living with disabilities.

2:35:10We're currently in conversations with Wellington County.

2:35:13There was a resolution from Council directing staff

2:35:16to explore a partnership with Habitat for Humanity

2:35:19on our Fergus build in center Wellington.

2:35:21And so this would mean that we would have

2:35:24the entire project as affordable,

2:35:26some of it being affordable home ownership,

2:35:28some of it being affordable rentals.

2:35:30We're also exploring on our Orchard Park project

2:35:33in Gualphara-Mosa township,

2:35:35the inclusion of seniors co-housing units,

2:35:39affordable seniors rentals,

2:35:41and then Habitat for Humanity units

2:35:43in the repurposing of the Orchard Park building.

2:35:46And we could sure use some servicing it to that.

2:35:50But moving forward,

2:35:52we are pretty excited about the potential of working

2:35:55with multiple housing providers.

2:35:57That's, there's kind of twofold.

2:36:02Our projects are more viable

2:36:04and we can serve more people

2:36:06by working with other people.

2:36:08And as an organization,

2:36:10we feel better when we're bringing affordable units online

2:36:14across the project,

2:36:15rather than leveraging market units

2:36:17to subsidize an offset or Habitat units.

2:36:19It feels like we're expanding our impact.

2:36:22And so as staff,

2:36:24from a cultural perspective,

2:36:26as a staff culture perspective,

2:36:28and as a, just sort of as a philosophy

2:36:32of our organization, we feel good about that.

2:36:37Thank you.

2:36:39I'll go to Councillor Goller and then to Downer.

2:36:42Thank you.

2:36:44Thank you through your worship to Mr. Desca.

2:36:47Thank you for your presentation.

2:36:49Very encouraging to see other municipalities

2:36:52doing things like this to fill that gap.

2:36:56Could you tell me from your perspective,

2:37:00how should the city go about the actual handoff of this land?

2:37:04Because I know that oftentimes a developer will buy something

2:37:07and then it'll take two, three, four years

2:37:09to get the zoning in place.

2:37:11And what would be the best way for the city

2:37:14to hand this off to an organization like Habitat

2:37:17or to a co-op that wants to build this

2:37:20in terms of zoning and regulations for a project?

2:37:27Yeah, I think through you, Mr. Mayor,

2:37:36I think a lot can be done.

2:37:37I think the report does outline some ideas around that

2:37:40and I think an expression of interest is a great way to go.

2:37:43I think there's considerations that can be made.

2:37:45I'm here speaking on behalf of Habitat

2:37:47to the principle of this, but not making a pitch

2:37:50that we're the right organization.

2:37:52Certainly I would make the pitch that there needs

2:37:54to be a balanced representation

2:37:56and I think Habitat has a component of those.

2:38:00I think there's value in our model for the city,

2:38:03but I wouldn't say that we're the only one.

2:38:06I think there needs to be an organization

2:38:07that has an emphasis towards action

2:38:09and has demonstrated the capacity to do similar projects,

2:38:13whether that's a private builder or a not-for-profit.

2:38:15I think the city needs to be working with someone

2:38:18who has a demonstrated capacity

2:38:21to deliver a project on time and on budget.

2:38:24And with regards to planning,

2:38:25I think if there's an emphasis, again,

2:38:29speaking of this, what's possible

2:38:31if we all pull in the same direction,

2:38:34I would assume that the city plan,

2:38:39it would be a collaborative project in a sense

2:38:41between the city and the proponent,

2:38:43whereby the planning staff would be actively working

2:38:46to expedite within good planning practice, of course,

2:38:51but to expedite the process so that it can move forward

2:38:54quickly.

2:38:56Thank you for that.

2:38:57I appreciate it.

2:38:58Thank you, worship.

2:38:59Thank you, and Councillor Downer, please.

2:39:00Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:39:03One other thing, I'm gonna ask staff this later too,

2:39:05but has Peppet had ever approached a university for land?

2:39:11When I think of, I don't, like the University of Guelph,

2:39:14Lisa's lands, right up Stone Road Mall,

2:39:17they have one of the biggest landholders certainly in Guelph.

2:39:22I don't know what other universities,

2:39:23but has that ever happened?

2:39:27Maybe it's about time.

2:39:31Mr. Mayor, we're continually exploring

2:39:34different organizations where land might be available.

2:39:37I don't know if I wanna sort of list off

2:39:39the different types of public or not-for-profit

2:39:42organizations that are landholders here locally,

2:39:46but certainly if and where the university had land

2:39:54that would be suitable, we would pursue that.

2:39:56And I think we would pursue any project of that scale

2:40:00from the perspective of what can we do,

2:40:02not just as habitat.

2:40:03Maybe we're the catalyst and we're driving

2:40:07the sort of coordination of people coming together on that,

2:40:10but any project at a certain scale,

2:40:13we're hoping to be doing alongside community partners.

2:40:16And that's the vision we've talked about

2:40:18with Friends of Guelph and it's a vision

2:40:20that we've talked about in the symposium

2:40:22and that kind of thing, but we're open to any land.

2:40:26And I think-

2:40:27Yeah, I understand you'd be open to it, of course,

2:40:29but have you ever approached the university?

2:40:32In my tenure with Habitat, no,

2:40:35we haven't approached them explicitly.

2:40:37I'm not sure prior to that what kinds of conversations

2:40:40have been happening.

2:40:44Great, that looks like that's it.

2:40:45Thank you so much for coming, appreciate it.

2:40:49Okay, by video, I think is Arlene Socombe.

2:41:03Okay, yep, just-

2:41:04Hi, can you hear me?

2:41:06Yes, we can hear you Arlene.

2:41:07Are you thinking of putting your video on

2:41:09or did you just wanna do audio?

2:41:11Yeah, no, I'll do it this way too.

2:41:13Okay, yeah, here you come.

2:41:14Okay, you're on, I'll turn it over to you, go right ahead.

2:41:17Okay, thanks.

2:41:19My name is Arlene Socombe, I'm ED of Water Watchers

2:41:21and I have really deep concerns regarding the proposal

2:41:23to hand over parkland to developers under this initiative.

2:41:27As highlighted in the Guelph Mercury article last December

2:41:30entitled, There's a Water Issue Brewing Here,

2:41:33it's clear that Guelph is facing significant challenges

2:41:35with regards to water capacity,

2:41:37especially in light of recent decisions

2:41:39affecting our city's development trajectory.

2:41:42The article underscores a crucial point.

2:41:44Guelph has already surpassed its groundwater capacity

2:41:47concerning housing developments.

2:41:48This reality should serve as a stark reminder

2:41:50of the need for prudent and sustainable urban planning

2:41:53going forward.

2:41:54As you all know, Guelph is fully groundwater dependent.

2:41:56We also know that the city's former CAO, Scott Stewart,

2:41:59specifically warned we have not identified water supply

2:42:03to meet the already projected housing.

2:42:05He cautioned that if you are adding it here,

2:42:06you need to subtract it somewhere else.

2:42:08So where are you subtracting it from?

2:42:10Or more relevantly, where is the new supply of water

2:42:13going to come from?

2:42:14I also note that within the context of new development,

2:42:16the mayor recently wrote to the Premier's office

2:42:18stating, we are going to need help with water supply here.

2:42:22I and many other water watchers want

2:42:23to know what exactly do you have in mind?

2:42:26I recall the fight back in 2006 to oppose the proposed pipeline

2:42:30from Lake Erie.

2:42:31This community remembers that.

2:42:33As water watchers, we are watching the choices

2:42:34you are making and with regards to living

2:42:36within our water capacity.

2:42:38At the moment, it's not looking good.

2:42:40Is a pipeline where this is headed?

2:42:42Needless to say, the main beneficiary of such pipelines

2:42:44are developers who, in the context of unlimited water

2:42:47supply, can lobby for unlimited growth.

2:42:50But we know that once they have built and sold

2:42:52and made their bounteous profits,

2:42:53they have no further skin in the game

2:42:55and don't need to think about what happens to all the people

2:42:57who've moved in.

2:42:58The notion of considering a pipeline is ludicrous.

2:43:01In 2006, the estimated price of the pipeline

2:43:03billed was $8 billion.

2:43:05This many years later, that cost would be significantly higher

2:43:08and Guelph would have a multi-billion dollar share

2:43:10in this.

2:43:12In this vision, we would have to take water from Lake Erie,

2:43:14which is already under intense threat.

2:43:16The insanity of pumping water one way from Lake Erie to Guelph

2:43:19and then pumping wastewater all the way back boggles the mind.

2:43:22The infrastructure costs, the insane operating costs

2:43:25of all the pumping of water and effluent.

2:43:27The ridiculousness of doing this while in an ever-deep

2:43:29and inclement emergency is insanity.

2:43:32This would likely triple or quadruple tax rates here.

2:43:35Planning for a pipeline is either magical, fantastical

2:43:38thinking or gross negligence.

2:43:40In 2006, we said no and we will say no again.

2:43:42Mark my words, this will be an election issue

2:43:44and we are watching.

2:43:46And we are in a housing crisis to be sure.

2:43:49I, for one, am getting tired of the false solutions continually

2:43:51being presented in the name of the housing crisis that

2:43:54are only tender to pander to developers

2:43:56who are largely responsible for the housing crisis

2:43:58to begin with.

2:44:00What we need is densely packed affordable housing.

2:44:02This means a maximum of 30% of a household's income.

2:44:05This report had some bizarre references

2:44:07to the housing crisis that are like 10% below the purchase

2:44:10rate, which are not actually affordable.

2:44:12And further, there are no constraints

2:44:14on single-detached units and no constraints

2:44:15following the first purchase.

2:44:17In order to meet the affordable housing crisis,

2:44:19there are many options to consider

2:44:21that are real solutions.

2:44:23If we can't add any more land, let's optimize what we do have.

2:44:26Here are a few ideas brought to me,

2:44:28brought forward to be my people much smarter than I,

2:44:31and more further serious exploration.

2:44:34We have almost 18 years worth of land currently

2:44:36to optimize it.

2:44:37Bring in a vacancy tax to free up empty homes.

2:44:40Put expiry dates on building permits

2:44:42to discouraged developers from sitting on them.

2:44:45Explore some sort of program that brokers empty bedrooms

2:44:47in existing homes.

2:44:49Build more publicly owned long-term care.

2:44:51I learned there are 30,000 to 40,000 people

2:44:53that currently are wait list for long-term care.

2:44:55This would open up detached housing stock.

2:44:59Explore strategic partnerships with landowners.

2:45:02Consider buying up multi-unit residential units

2:45:05for affordable housing.

2:45:06The city has the power to expropriate.

2:45:08Public money should go into publicly owned assets.

2:45:11Explore co-ops, habitat, humanity, et cetera.

2:45:14Mostly I want to highlight that you have already

2:45:17exceeded your water budget.

2:45:19This is a sobering call from water watchers

2:45:21to take a look at the big picture.

2:45:23You are forfeiting your legitimacy as decision makers

2:45:26as you continue to forge ahead

2:45:28blinded into this water crisis.

2:45:30You have not paid attention and we are watching.

2:45:33As mentioned, this will be an election issue.

2:45:35We need more responsible management,

2:45:37not development on existing partlands

2:45:40that needs tree canopy coverage to meet our needs.

2:45:43Thanks.

2:45:46Thank you for your presentation.

2:45:47Is there any follow-up questions?

2:45:49No, okay, thank you very much.

2:45:54And Bronner Zimmerman is stuck around.

2:45:56I think you're coming up for another delegation.

2:46:01Thank you.

2:46:09Welcome again.

2:46:09I'll hand it over to you.

2:46:11Worship staff and counselors.

2:46:17Great presentations and valid discussions,

2:46:22points put forward, there's no argument.

2:46:25My point is this, when a park's gone, it's gone.

2:46:29And what is a park?

2:46:31Is it someplace you drive to?

2:46:34It should be someplace you walk to.

2:46:36Sleam and park, underutilized.

2:46:38I drive by it, I see it.

2:46:40It's underutilized because it's under,

2:46:44well, let's say underdeveloped.

2:46:47It's a green space.

2:46:48We need the canopy.

2:46:49We need a place where you go, you sit, you contemplate,

2:46:52you get out of the sun, your kids can play.

2:46:55It's literally a family place for the neighborhood.

2:46:59It can't, I mean, we really do need housing,

2:47:02but you know, I live on Glasgow Street,

2:47:04to houses over it, there's an empty place falling apart.

2:47:07Go around the corner, around Preston, there's a lot.

2:47:09Now I don't know, there used to be

2:47:11an old Salvation Army there, whatever.

2:47:13I don't know why it's not being developed.

2:47:15It's a lovely little park right now, I gotta say.

2:47:18But it could be, it could be used.

2:47:20There is land to be used, but a park should not be.

2:47:26I mean, I'm not against housing.

2:47:27I mean, you know what?

2:47:28I've lived in a house for 50 years.

2:47:31I mean, I put my heart and soul in fixing it up.

2:47:34I mean, everybody does.

2:47:36But I've lived there for 50 years,

2:47:37but now it's a big house.

2:47:38It's a little bit bigger than I need.

2:47:40Where would I go?

2:47:41Where would I downsize?

2:47:42I think about that too.

2:47:44So yes, we need places.

2:47:46As somebody, you know, family,

2:47:47hopefully a family could move into my house

2:47:49and not, you know, be divided up into, you know,

2:47:53I don't know.

2:47:54You know, we do need student housing.

2:47:56But the park, the park itself,

2:47:58whether it's a small chunk.

2:48:00Okay, let's talk about the other one,

2:48:02Huigothry Park.

2:48:04I drive by it all the time too.

2:48:06I'd walk to it, but it's, you know,

2:48:08Edinburgh Road is not the prettiest place,

2:48:10you know, with its lovely canopy of wires.

2:48:15But the park itself, again,

2:48:18it could be a canopy of green.

2:48:20These are green lungs for the city.

2:48:24They need, we need them as much as we need the housing.

2:48:27And I'm not saying we don't need the housing.

2:48:28We can't live in the sleep, the streets.

2:48:31But we need a place like that.

2:48:33You give it away, it won't come back.

2:48:36And Guelph does not have that many parks.

2:48:38You mean, you can, you can think about little boulevards

2:48:40and little tiny pieces.

2:48:41And yes, those little tiny pieces still are valuable.

2:48:44They are, they're scattered around.

2:48:47So we need them, don't give them away.

2:48:49I know we have a problem.

2:48:51I appreciate the effort that has gone in.

2:48:54You know what I mean?

2:48:55Serious effort.

2:48:56Your heart's in it, it's right.

2:48:57But this park business, please don't give it away.

2:49:03That's all.

2:49:04Thank you.

2:49:06Great, thank you.

2:49:07And is there any questions as a follow up?

2:49:09Seeing, oh, okay.

2:49:11Councillor Chew.

2:49:16Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:49:18I was just at Hugh's got three park

2:49:20for this council meeting,

2:49:21just taking a look at what possibilities could be.

2:49:23And you talked about how some of our existing park spaces

2:49:27are currently underutilized.

2:49:29Do you see a proposition in which, you know,

2:49:33a potential project could help revitalize

2:49:36an existing park space

2:49:37because we're not talking about getting rid of

2:49:39the park spaces completely, right?

2:49:43Councillor Chew, you know, I looked at that.

2:49:46And yes, you know, that there is,

2:49:51if the park is possibly developed in such a way

2:49:54that it does become a proper green space,

2:49:57kind of, I don't know how to explain it.

2:50:00Oh God, you know, that's a tough one

2:50:01because, you know, along Edinburgh Road,

2:50:02yes, there could be development.

2:50:04I mean, a co-op, or, I mean, I'm all for the co-op

2:50:07and habitat.

2:50:09But I'm worried about that, you know what I mean?

2:50:11Slowly bit by bit, another chunk of another park

2:50:13is given away and everything else like that.

2:50:15And suddenly, you know, you go,

2:50:17oh, we don't have all that park.

2:50:21And parks, you know, it's a simple word, park.

2:50:25We have parking lots, right, for cars.

2:50:28In fact, you know, we have drawn Valley Parkway.

2:50:31I mean, the word has been deluded,

2:50:33but a park is something that's unique,

2:50:38that must be maintained.

2:50:39And yes, I think,

2:50:42probably the one on Edinburgh, the Hugh Guthrie,

2:50:49a piece of it could be taken away,

2:50:51but again, here it is again, by little slices,

2:50:54little cuts, what happens to our parks?

2:50:57It's a tough one, I admit.

2:51:00But again, please consider this so carefully.

2:51:04Not only now, but as more of these come along,

2:51:08because they will be.

2:51:10Okay, so, Amon Guelph is a beautiful place.

2:51:12It's a wonderful place, I love this place.

2:51:15And what makes it beautiful has to be maintained.

2:51:18It's the humanity of this place.

2:51:20It's the place that you can walk, you can be.

2:51:23You don't, I mean, I don't even want to use my car anymore.

2:51:27Honestly, I could scrap it now.

2:51:29I walk, I take the train.

2:51:32And then not everybody has that opportunity,

2:51:34but you know, with proper planning, yes,

2:51:36we have that opportunity.

2:51:37And that Sleiman Park, especially where it is,

2:51:41I think that's a little bit of a gem

2:51:43that hasn't been maintained,

2:51:44and probably some work done on it.

2:51:47So thank you, I'm sorry,

2:51:48I hope I didn't go too long with that.

2:51:54Great, thank you, Councillor Chew.

2:51:55Yep, Councillor Boussatel.

2:51:57Didn't forget this talk.

2:51:58Yeah, thank you for recognizing me, Mayor.

2:52:01Thank you, and through the mayor,

2:52:03I live close to Sleiman Park, other side of the Hanline.

2:52:06And what I hear from families is they'd love to go to the park,

2:52:09but there's no way to get there.

2:52:10So families that live in all the high rises,

2:52:12the co-op housing at the corner,

2:52:14there's no safe way other than the traffic lights

2:52:16at Willow to cross it.

2:52:18When you talk about amenities,

2:52:20it's something like even a crosswalk.

2:52:21So our families that actually can cross the street safely

2:52:27to get there.

2:52:28Is that what you're picturing,

2:52:29or is it more of the playground amenities,

2:52:32or is it just making it accessible

2:52:34so families can get there?

2:52:36I think both of those.

2:52:37I mean, definitely making it safe to get there.

2:52:40That's a very important thing for children.

2:52:42You don't have to worry about a child going.

2:52:45And the other part is that it becomes a place

2:52:49where you can play, where you can sit,

2:52:50where the shade, we need the trees.

2:52:53And so, yeah, that would be a great idea

2:52:58to have that definitely.

2:53:00Thank you.

2:53:03All right, thank you so much.

2:53:04Thank you for sticking around for a second time.

2:53:06Thank you very much.

2:53:08Okay, we do have one last one.

2:53:10Deb Nukom, Nukomi, I'm sorry.

2:53:13Yeah, come on forward Deb.

2:53:22Thank you for coming.

2:53:23And when the green light goes on there,

2:53:25you go right ahead, okay?

2:53:26Okay, thank you very much.

2:53:27My name is Deborah Nukom,

2:53:29and I live at 23 Echo Drive.

2:53:32Mayor Guthrie and council,

2:53:34I would like to refer you to the letter

2:53:37I sent into this committee last week.

2:53:40As a lifelong resident of the old university neighborhood,

2:53:44I am proud that we have welcomed new neighbors,

2:53:50sorry, living in secondary units,

2:53:54subdivided residential properties and new construction,

2:53:59but I am calling on you to build on parking lots.

2:54:02Do not use our parks.

2:54:05As more people start calling our neighborhood home,

2:54:09these renters need Hugh Guthrie Park for recreation.

2:54:14Reducing the park is contrary to the creation

2:54:18of a more sustainable neighborhood.

2:54:22Also, the staff report understates how much of the park

2:54:27is being proposed for development.

2:54:29There is a steep slope on the side of forest,

2:54:33and many native plants have been planted along the street.

2:54:37Staff estimates approximately 30% of the park

2:54:42would be removed.

2:54:43I think it's gonna be closer 50% when it's finally done.

2:54:49I would also like to point out that this proposal

2:54:52is contrary to the city's official plan,

2:54:55the parks and recreation plan and the climate plan.

2:55:00Finally, the report does not mention the landfill

2:55:03beneath Hugh Guthrie Park,

2:55:06and the risk of building homes on it.

2:55:09I have questions, some of which have maybe been answered

2:55:13today for the staff and council to consider.

2:55:17Did staff assess the risk of development

2:55:20on top of a landfill?

2:55:22Two, how much longer will the assessment

2:55:25of local parking lots take?

2:55:28And three, did the mayor's deadline to have a report

2:55:31by the end of the second quarter of this year

2:55:34result in a rushed and incomplete analysis?

2:55:38I ask that the committee receive the report,

2:55:41but please do not take action.

2:55:44Leave our parks alone.

2:55:45Once they're gone, we will never get them back

2:55:48for future generations.

2:55:50Thank you.

2:55:53Thank you, Deb.

2:55:53And is there any follow up for Deb at all?

2:55:57No, but thank you both for sticking around to the end.

2:55:59Thank you.

2:56:01Okay, so that's it for delegations.

2:56:04We have a pretty easy recommendation right off the top.

2:56:09It's just to receive the report.

2:56:12Would someone be willing to move that at least

2:56:13just to receive?

2:56:15Okay, Councillor Chew, Councillor Klosson.

2:56:20And then we will, it's yet been tabled.

2:56:23Yep, and then let's see if there's any questions.

2:56:26And I do know that Councillor Chew wanted to bring forward

2:56:29some other motions for us to consider as well.

2:56:32But I'll go to you, Councillor Downer first,

2:56:34and then Boussatel second.

2:56:36Through you, Mr. Mayor, to staff,

2:56:40have we ever approached the university to,

2:56:44I mean, you're doing this search of city-owned land,

2:56:46but have we ever been in discussions with the university

2:56:49about all their land holdings in the city

2:56:51about extra housing?

2:56:56With respect to, through the Chair, sorry,

2:56:58with respect to this report itself,

2:57:00no, we haven't done that.

2:57:01We focused on city-owned sites.

2:57:04But as we go forward, as I said, as Luke mentioned,

2:57:07we're going to do more work on the city-owned sites.

2:57:10But then we wanna kinda look at that much sector.

2:57:13So we're gonna start looking at county-owned lands,

2:57:15perhaps just federal lands.

2:57:17We're going to talk to the university.

2:57:19We'll talk to the school boards.

2:57:21So that's kind of the next iteration of the work beyond,

2:57:25once we get a good idea of what our inventory is,

2:57:28city of Guelph lands, then we can start adding to that.

2:57:32Okay, good, thanks.

2:57:35Thank you, Boussatel, and then Koran.

2:57:39Thank you, a couple of questions, if I might, for staff,

2:57:42and this is perhaps for planning staff,

2:57:44if they could just validate some of the things

2:57:46that I heard from the delegations,

2:57:48I don't know if they wanna come up,

2:57:49or yell from the second row.

2:57:59Thank you, so the first question is,

2:58:01what I heard is that there is a park lands shortage.

2:58:05If you could just confirm that for me.

2:58:14Through the chair to council, Boussatel,

2:58:15what we identified in previous park policy,

2:58:18things like the park land dedication by-law,

2:58:21and through the park plan was that the park,

2:58:29the current park service levels meet

2:58:33the minimum requirements of the OP,

2:58:34but so there's two different targets,

2:58:36there's what we must have, which is,

2:58:38I believe, off the top of my head, it's been a while,

2:58:40but I believe it's two acres of park land per thousand

2:58:46people at a minimum, and then we should aspire

2:58:48to 3.3 acres of park land per thousand people,

2:58:50so we are currently meeting the minimum,

2:58:54but we're challenged to meet the should portion

2:58:59of what the official plan outlines.

2:59:00Right, thank you, and the second question is about,

2:59:04is there a shortage of land for development

2:59:06in the city of Guelph?

2:59:15Through the mayor to the councillor,

2:59:16so on May 31st, we published our annual housing inventory

2:59:24supply report, there is, as one of the delegates

2:59:27alluded, there is a 4.1 year supply of short-term housing,

2:59:32there is a 17 year supply in long-term housing,

2:59:35but the 17 year supply does deed servicing

2:59:37in other items, but there is currently

2:59:40four year supply of short-term housing available.

2:59:43Thank you, my next question is,

2:59:47since I've been sworn in, can you tell me what changes

2:59:50there have been to the park land dedication,

2:59:55amount of land, what percentage it's changed,

2:59:58and also payment in lieu?

3:00:07Through the chair to councillor Bucitile,

3:00:09I don't have the specifics off the top of my head,

3:00:11but what I can tell you that has changed

3:00:13with recent provincial direction is,

3:00:18the city in their park land dedication,

3:00:20the 2018 update, they introduced caps and restrictions

3:00:24for how high park land can advance

3:00:27and dedication rates can go, since that,

3:00:30through series of bills, the specific numbers

3:00:33are alluding me now, 184, five, sorry.

3:00:37The province has introduced their own caps.

3:00:40I want to say at the top of my head again,

3:00:41that's a 10% cap of land value to be conveyed

3:00:45for high density sites, and then in subsequent legislation,

3:00:49they've also introduced exemptions for affordable housing

3:00:52and things of that nature.

3:00:53Thank you, so what I've heard is that,

3:00:56from other conversations, is that the park land dedication

3:00:59has been reduced by 50% and the payment in lieu

3:01:02has been reduced by 50%, if I could just get a comment on that.

3:01:11Through the chair, I'm hearing from,

3:01:13Chris said that that is correct.

3:01:15Thank you, so that's less money and less land

3:01:17that we're receiving.

3:01:19The last question is economic development,

3:01:21because clearly this was an economic report,

3:01:25not so much recreation or health and wellbeing and so on.

3:01:28What does programmed space mean and underutilized?

3:01:32I'm trying, those are measurements,

3:01:35that number of users and so on,

3:01:37and how did you accommodate for,

3:01:39or how did you account for externalities

3:01:41like health and wellbeing, mental health,

3:01:43the benefits that are provided,

3:01:45tree canopy, climate change and so on,

3:01:48because really what I see is more of the economic headcount

3:01:52number of users in there.

3:01:53I think that was referenced to Slimming Park

3:01:55and how often the baseball diamond was used and so on.

3:01:59So I'm feeling, there's only one half of the walnut here,

3:02:02which is the economic side to this

3:02:04and not the externalities or the additional parts

3:02:06to the conversation.

3:02:11Through the mayor,

3:02:12I, so I know I'm the general manager

3:02:15of the Economic Development Tourism Department,

3:02:17but this wasn't an economic development lens applied to this.

3:02:21So this was worked on as part of the Realty Services Division

3:02:24and Strategic Real Estate.

3:02:26So when we talk about underutilized

3:02:30park space versus program,

3:02:32that's really park terminology

3:02:34and I'd probably pass that over to Colleen to answer.

3:02:44Thank you, through the chair.

3:02:45So I mean, without getting too far down

3:02:48into the literal weeds on this,

3:02:50our park plan defines what a park is

3:02:52and so park is meant for recreation purposes

3:02:55and so for the purposes of this,

3:02:56our parks plan and our policies,

3:02:58parks are areas of land that get set aside

3:03:01primarily for human enjoyment,

3:03:02recreation, connection to nature.

3:03:04And we do tend to use park and parkland

3:03:07interchangeably in our documents

3:03:09when we refer to areas of land,

3:03:11which then is differentiated from natural heritage systems

3:03:16because those are excluded from the policies

3:03:18or strategies relating to parkland

3:03:20because those have limited accessibility

3:03:22or opportunities from recreation.

3:03:24So we do differentiate natural heritage systems

3:03:27as separate from parks and parkland.

3:03:29Then when we get to talking about parks and parkland,

3:03:33while there is sometimes overlap

3:03:35with natural heritage systems,

3:03:37parks and parkland is a little bit,

3:03:39then when we look to quantify park and parkland,

3:03:42we have programmed spaces

3:03:44where we actually have bookable spaces,

3:03:46a sports field, a bookable space like a pavilion.

3:03:51And so those are bookable program spaces

3:03:53that have active use.

3:03:55Playgrounds would be another example

3:03:56of an active use space in a park.

3:03:59And then we have lots of spaces in our parks

3:04:02that may not be bookable.

3:04:06And so then it a little bit becomes in the eye

3:04:09of the beholder whether it is active use

3:04:11because it's not a bookable space.

3:04:13So we may not define it as active use,

3:04:16but if you choose to go sit there and juggle a ball,

3:04:20you're actively using that space,

3:04:22but we may not have defined it as active use

3:04:25in the same way.

3:04:26We may consider that more of a passive park space,

3:04:29but you as a user who may be walking through it

3:04:31with your children or throwing a ball back and forth

3:04:34are still using that park in an active way.

3:04:37So a little bit is to quote some expression

3:04:41from the other day, words matter.

3:04:43But when we're talking about parks,

3:04:45and so I think when it came up with Sleiman Park

3:04:47or even with Guthrie Park,

3:04:49when we think of Guthrie Park,

3:04:50we have a bookable space in Guthrie Park,

3:04:55and then we have another section of Guthrie Park

3:04:57which isn't bookable, it's more passive open area space.

3:05:01And I think that's what we're referring to.

3:05:03Whereas in Sleiman Park,

3:05:04the space that we're talking about

3:05:06would actually take a baseball diamond offline,

3:05:09which is a bookable active use space.

3:05:12So it's open spaces tend to be more for general recreation.

3:05:16You can't book them and they're not designated

3:05:18for a specific purpose.

3:05:19That's helpful.

3:05:20That's kind of helpful, but really so.

3:05:22This report speaks to the quantifiable bookable,

3:05:25I'm paying for a space versus I have no money,

3:05:29I'm a single mother, I've got five kids,

3:05:30it's all I've got kind of thing.

3:05:32And so there's a value judgment there

3:05:34that I'm really struggling with.

3:05:35My last question is about Silver Creek Parkway,

3:05:39sorry, Silver Creek Sleiman Park.

3:05:41The comments from the community is,

3:05:43would love to go to the park, can't get there.

3:05:46So all those high rises along Silver Creek,

3:05:49one, two, three, four, the co-op at the corner,

3:05:51the other and so on, there is no safe crossing

3:05:54for me, my stroller and my five kids to get to the park.

3:05:58Is there any plans when we're talking about

3:06:01improving amenities to actually activate,

3:06:04to make it accessible and safe for families to use?

3:06:11Through the mayor, we would have to get back to you

3:06:16on what the longer term plans are for accessibility

3:06:18through to Sleiman Park, I don't have that answer.

3:06:20So I would need to get back to you anyways.

3:06:21Thank you.

3:06:24Okay, thank you.

3:06:25Koran is next and then Keaton, sorry Leanne,

3:06:38Councillor Caron, I'm sorry.

3:06:41It's probably awesome what you said

3:06:42because it was so animated,

3:06:44but we didn't hear what you said.

3:06:46Can you unmute?

3:06:51Shoot, we're not hearing you.

3:06:53Oh yeah, you're here now, go ahead.

3:06:55Thank you.

3:06:56We have a housing affordability strategy happening.

3:06:58We're in consultation right now,

3:07:00lots and lots of work being done on that whole strategy.

3:07:04We also have the city-wide land inventory

3:07:07that is in the report that we're working on.

3:07:12So we have centralized data of all sources,

3:07:15including more than just parks,

3:07:18but also school boards and other land holdings.

3:07:21When are those studies scheduled to be completed?

3:07:25When will they be coming back to Kansas?

3:07:32Through the mayor, I can speak with respect

3:07:34to the inventory itself.

3:07:36We're targeting year-end for that work to be complete,

3:07:39but I wanna caution that that's the city-owned parcels.

3:07:43We haven't started to look at those other school boards

3:07:47and that is something that's kind of the next step,

3:07:50but we are continuing that work today

3:07:53and with something back.

3:07:56We're complete by the end of the year with a report

3:07:59in the first quarter of 2025,

3:08:02but we can definitely look at advancing that as well.

3:08:06I'll pass it over to Christopher for additional comments.

3:08:09Thanks and through the mayor to the councillor.

3:08:12So the housing affordability strategy,

3:08:14September 10th council planning is an update

3:08:17on the housing affordability strategy,

3:08:19including draft strategic actions.

3:08:21October 8th is the draft housing affordability strategy

3:08:26with the intent to come to council

3:08:28for final approval on December 10th of this year.

3:08:31Okay, thanks.

3:08:32And that's important.

3:08:33I think as a council, we are obligated

3:08:37to make evidence-based and informed decisions

3:08:40and we're being asked to make decisions today

3:08:42that full information.

3:08:45I know right now it's just to receive.

3:08:46There's no other recommendations on the table,

3:08:50but I need to make fully informed decisions

3:08:54and those strategies, those reports,

3:08:56that data is significant in how I'm approaching this.

3:09:00So the other question I had is we had a housing symposium.

3:09:04We've had lots of media attention

3:09:07to the housing crisis in Ontario.

3:09:10We had the Greenbelt giveaway

3:09:13and from a provincial perspective

3:09:15where land was the carrot

3:09:20for solving housing crisis in Ontario and the GTA.

3:09:25But nowhere have I heard that access to land

3:09:32is a factor in the reason why developers

3:09:35are not proceeding with development.

3:09:36In fact, in the housing symposium,

3:09:38it was things like infrastructure, red tape,

3:09:41labor and materials, high interest rates.

3:09:44Access to land was not on the list.

3:09:47Do we have any evidence or data that demonstrates

3:09:51that a land shortage in the city of Guelph

3:09:55is a significant factor in the housing shortage?

3:10:03I think to clarify the purpose of what was before you today

3:10:07was yeah, there isn't a land shortage.

3:10:11However, land isn't free or no cost

3:10:14and land contributes significantly

3:10:17as one of the presenters said earlier,

3:10:19contributes to the cost of housing.

3:10:22So the work that we prepared was,

3:10:26let's do an RFEOI, a request for expressions of interest

3:10:30to see if we can find somebody to develop affordable units

3:10:35now that we've taken the cost of the land out of the equation

3:10:39as well as the rules under Bill 185

3:10:42in terms of no development charges,

3:10:44no park line dedication fees.

3:10:46All in the effort to hope that with those costs removed,

3:10:51that we could see some affordable residential units developed,

3:10:57recognizing that construction costs

3:10:59have gone through the roof

3:11:01as well as interest rates are quite high right now.

3:11:03So what is it the city could do to contribute

3:11:05to helping a partner or somebody,

3:11:09whether it's for-profit or non-profit,

3:11:13what can we do to kind of reduce the cost of housing?

3:11:16So you mentioned a number of factors

3:11:19that we're already doing.

3:11:20We're already reduced development charges.

3:11:22We've already shortened time frames.

3:11:25We've already committed in our capital plan

3:11:28to building infrastructure faster.

3:11:31So we've put significant skin in the game

3:11:34and that will fall on the tax base.

3:11:38So shifting a little bit,

3:11:41I'm gonna shift my question a little bit now

3:11:43to the use of park land.

3:11:45And I think there's been some great questions

3:11:46about what is passive park land,

3:11:48what is unprogrammed park space?

3:11:51Because the park land that I see being used

3:11:55is almost all passive use.

3:11:57It's kids playing and throwing frisbees

3:12:00and reading a book under a tree.

3:12:02None of it is programmed.

3:12:04So there's lots of value there.

3:12:05And so I know that this staff wrote this report

3:12:09as a result of a mayoral direction.

3:12:11And I do wanna give credit to the mayor.

3:12:15We all recognize the housing crisis is real

3:12:18and that we all need to be looking at creative ways

3:12:22to address it.

3:12:23But the city's never been in the housing business.

3:12:26We've never been a developer.

3:12:29And we're entering a new arena

3:12:31and we're using our park land as the carrot.

3:12:39So staff have prepared a report

3:12:41based on a mayoral direction.

3:12:43But staff have not weighed in on their support

3:12:48for the use, specifically for the use of park land

3:12:53or housing, specifically on the whole concept

3:12:57of taking existing parks in built up areas

3:13:01and converting them for development purposes.

3:13:03So I know that staff will likely say

3:13:07that they will do whatever is the will of council,

3:13:09but I'd like staff to weigh in on whether they support

3:13:13the use of park land in built up areas

3:13:17for housing development.

3:13:20So through the chair to council Koran and you're right,

3:13:24it's a difficult question to answer.

3:13:28I think as you heard in Mr. Goodram's,

3:13:31sorry, as you heard in Mr. Goodram's initial remarks,

3:13:36we're torn on this too.

3:13:39We understand that, you know,

3:13:42as part of our parks and recreational master plan,

3:13:45that does indicate that we're not meeting

3:13:48our park requirements.

3:13:50We know, and we've heard it at every planning meeting,

3:13:53how important parks are to making complete communities.

3:13:58But I think we also all agree

3:14:01that we do have a housing crisis.

3:14:04And I'm glad to hear that we've been talking

3:14:07about all the great work that this council

3:14:10and our staff have been doing to address that.

3:14:13So as we looked at the mayoral direction,

3:14:16there were some stipulations in there

3:14:18that we had to abide by,

3:14:22and one of them was the ability to really develop quickly.

3:14:26And so keeping that in mind,

3:14:28we're basically looking at unencumbered table land

3:14:32and that is parks.

3:14:35So that is where we landed.

3:14:37So if you're, to answer the question of, you know,

3:14:42to answer the mayoral direction,

3:14:44those are the two parks that we came up with,

3:14:48based on the stipulations that were included

3:14:50in the mayoral direction.

3:14:52So I know that we said,

3:14:54but we're going to continue to review the properties,

3:14:58but we're torn too.

3:15:00So you're right, councillor Caron,

3:15:04I'm awaiting council direction on where you land with us,

3:15:08understanding that it's a difficult decision for you.

3:15:13Yeah, thank you.

3:15:18I know right now all we have is a report to receive.

3:15:20So I won't ask any further questions.

3:15:22I'll wait for comments and I'll wait to see

3:15:26what else comes on to the floor as recommendations.

3:15:30And then I have a potential other motion

3:15:32to put on the floor if that happens.

3:15:37Thank you, Kate and then old.

3:15:41Your question to staff.

3:15:44Why was the special Olympics use of the baseball diamond

3:15:47at Sleiman Park considered less important

3:15:49than programming at other parks?

3:15:56Through the merit certainly wasn't considered less important

3:15:59by any way, shape or form.

3:16:00It was just noted that that was the usage at Sleiman Park,

3:16:04but it was not at all a value statement

3:16:07on the usage of the park.

3:16:08And we absolutely, as Mr. Jefferson's made

3:16:10in his opening comments, we would,

3:16:13if this was to go ahead and Sleiman Park was repurposed,

3:16:17we would absolutely work with them

3:16:18to accommodate them elsewhere.

3:16:22Okay, thank you very much on that through the mayor.

3:16:26I've noticed just looking around the area,

3:16:28much of the surrounding area at Sleiman were high rises

3:16:31and this area was listed higher in the food insecurity map

3:16:35when we were doing that work.

3:16:37Were community gardens considered

3:16:38to increase the programming if the lack of programs

3:16:41in this park were an issue for the space?

3:16:47Through the mayor, it wasn't that lack of programs

3:16:49were considered an issue for the space.

3:16:51We're always looking at other programming opportunities

3:16:53for all of our parks.

3:16:55These parks weren't chosen

3:16:56because we felt there was lack of programming,

3:16:58but these parks were identified

3:17:00because there was a potential ability to repurpose them.

3:17:04So I suppose it's a bit of a chicken and an egg conversation,

3:17:07but we're always looking for opportunities

3:17:10to program our parks,

3:17:11but our limitations tend to be more about resourcing

3:17:13than anything.

3:17:16Great, thank you, I appreciate that.

3:17:18And my final question,

3:17:21I had heard that there were the mention of the 23 to 25 years

3:17:24for affordability mentioned.

3:17:27Why are we looking at a times limit for affordability

3:17:32instead of in perpetuity

3:17:33if the city land is being given for housing?

3:17:40Through the mayor,

3:17:42that is just a number we put in the report

3:17:45to line up with some of the other federal programs

3:17:48that are out there for housing affordability.

3:17:51It is something we can consider lengthening

3:17:55or putting into perpetuity

3:17:58when we get to the RFEOI stage.

3:18:03Thank you very much.

3:18:07Thank you, I'll then call her.

3:18:10Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:18:11Minor comments, so I think I'll wait until the questions.

3:18:15I'll wait till the questions are exhausted.

3:18:16I'm gonna do my comments.

3:18:19Okay, just one second, I'll make a new column.

3:18:23Comments,

3:18:25all.

3:18:27I have a feeling I need to put you at the top of comment

3:18:29column every single time.

3:18:31It's all right.

3:18:32So now back to questions, Galler then O'Rourke.

3:18:37Thank you through your worship.

3:18:39First of all, thank you to staff

3:18:41for pulling this together

3:18:43on the direction of Mayor Guthrie.

3:18:48Looking at our parks master plan,

3:18:51it makes it clear that the official plan

3:18:54target is 3.3 hectares per thousand people for Parkland

3:18:58and that we're not meeting all of those

3:19:01for the regional parks, I think it is.

3:19:03And it does tell us that with provincial changes,

3:19:06we're going to be short 2.7 hectares per thousand people.

3:19:11We're going to be short of that target.

3:19:15So as we look at converting some Parkland to residential,

3:19:21would we have considerations of how we make up

3:19:24for that Parkland?

3:19:25Or is this a decision that if council makes it,

3:19:28we're effectively lowering our Parkland

3:19:32without consideration for making it up?

3:19:37Through the chair to Councillor Goller,

3:19:40so as James mentioned,

3:19:42there's a number of activities that are happening

3:19:46that staff are undertaking.

3:19:47One of them is a sports field evaluation,

3:19:49another one will be a park acquisition strategy.

3:19:51This will be coming in the future.

3:19:52And so I think the simple answer is that

3:19:55whatever happens here today would have to be factored

3:19:57into that acquisition strategy to determine

3:19:59how we're going to achieve the service level going forward.

3:20:03Okay, I appreciate that.

3:20:06The other concern raised by one of the delegates

3:20:09from the Wellington Water Watchers

3:20:10was with regards to water refiltration into our aquifer.

3:20:14Taking both of these parks would reduce the amount

3:20:18of open field, would it be possible

3:20:21to actually go ahead with these residential developments

3:20:24without having a negative impact

3:20:26on the recharge of our water table?

3:20:29Or would, if you could.

3:20:36Through the mayor to Councillor Goller,

3:20:37so certainly when a detailed plan would come forward

3:20:40with respect to any of the sort of proposals

3:20:42that we'd be looking at,

3:20:43we would seek to balance storm water management requirements.

3:20:47And so if there's a certain level of infiltration now,

3:20:49then staff would look at how to balance

3:20:50that pre and post development.

3:20:54Okay, so just so that I'm clear,

3:20:56we could do a residential development

3:20:58without having a negative impact on the water infiltration?

3:21:04Through the mayor, that's correct.

3:21:05Okay, thank you for that.

3:21:07And along the same lines, the same delegate

3:21:10and a couple other delegates spoke about

3:21:13how we are at capacity for our water use.

3:21:19Could I get clarity on that?

3:21:20How does that work that if we convert more spaces

3:21:24to residential, does that mean that when we get to the end

3:21:28of 2051, we're just not permitting those last residential

3:21:32lots to be built or how would that work?

3:21:37Through the chair to Councillor Goller.

3:21:39So this was, we addressed, sorry,

3:21:41we addressed this a little while ago

3:21:44because I think the same concern came up.

3:21:45So there is a cap on the water capacity here in Guelph

3:21:50to 2051 that was talked about in our water supply master plan.

3:21:56We've heard about this, the big pipe project

3:21:59a couple of times.

3:22:00Again, that's a massive project.

3:22:02That wouldn't be a city of Guelph project.

3:22:04That would be a provincial, perhaps a provincial project.

3:22:07Of course, we'd be interested if that ever came up.

3:22:10As the delegate mentioned,

3:22:12billions of dollars would be spent on that.

3:22:14There are options in the water servicing master plan

3:22:17that do talk about, that do talk about conservation measures

3:22:22and why they're so important.

3:22:24Talks about also other surface water options

3:22:28that we might consider before that.

3:22:30But again, that would be a big investment

3:22:33in terms of capital infrastructure.

3:22:36So as we go on with our,

3:22:40what you're going to start to see

3:22:41in some of our planning reports is some indication

3:22:44of where we are in terms of a,

3:22:48not a countdown, but a reverse thermometer.

3:22:51But as we, there's only so many units

3:22:53that you're going to be able to bring on board

3:22:55with the water supply that we have now.

3:22:56And so as we start to bring those units on board,

3:23:00we will, we're gonna start putting in some messaging in there

3:23:03that would indicate where we are and how many we have left.

3:23:07So that's to come in some of our planning process.

3:23:11Did I answer your question?

3:23:12I'm not sure.

3:23:12So to be clear, what I'm understanding is that

3:23:15as we near that capacity,

3:23:17we could actually start not approving developments

3:23:21because we've reached our capacity.

3:23:24Through the chair, that's correct.

3:23:25Okay, okay.

3:23:26Thank you for that.

3:23:27I really appreciate that.

3:23:30Then one of the other questions

3:23:32that I have through your worship is in regards of the type

3:23:37of housing that we would be putting out in the request

3:23:39for expressions of interest.

3:23:41Because, yes, your worship.

3:23:43Yeah, sorry to interrupt you, Councillor.

3:23:45And I think I'd like to try to refocus us.

3:23:49We're getting into like a lot of,

3:23:52almost like planning justification questions.

3:23:54Like we're really veering off a C staff,

3:23:56nodding in agreement.

3:23:58We only have a motion of receiving on the,

3:24:02on the floor right now.

3:24:04So if we could just stick to what is the report

3:24:11and what is the motion on the floor, which is receive only,

3:24:15that would be great.

3:24:16In fact, if it's easier for me just to call the vote

3:24:18on receive only, that might be better just to wipe that off.

3:24:22Because we're starting to,

3:24:23and it's not, I picked on you, Councillor Gaur,

3:24:25but I apologize, there's been others.

3:24:28We're veering into what we know is coming,

3:24:31which is probably a motion to actually try

3:24:33to do a request for expression of interest.

3:24:35That's fair.

3:24:36But let's hold our comments and our questions

3:24:39when that is potentially tabled.

3:24:42I think it'd be incumbent upon us right now if we could.

3:24:46I'll let you finish and have the floor.

3:24:48But let me call the vote on receiving, okay?

3:24:51So you go ahead.

3:24:53It's already been moved to seconded, Councillor O'Hara.

3:24:54Yeah, but point of order.

3:24:55I do have comments I wish to make on the report.

3:24:59Sure, yeah, yeah, I've got two down with you being number one.

3:25:02So I will let you finish, you have the floor.

3:25:05Thank you, Your Worship.

3:25:05And then some comments,

3:25:07and then we'll call the vote on just receiving,

3:25:09get that off, and then if there's anything further

3:25:11from that, we can move forward, okay?

3:25:13Go ahead.

3:25:14Thank you, Your Worship.

3:25:15I will reserve those questions,

3:25:16and I will move on to my last question on the report.

3:25:19With regards to the parking lots,

3:25:22we were told that they were ruled out.

3:25:23There were 14 parking lots that you looked at.

3:25:25Could you help me understand what was said

3:25:28about the direction that ruled them out?

3:25:31If it hadn't said quickly, would there be an opportunity?

3:25:34You mentioned that there was infrastructure

3:25:36underneath those parking lots.

3:25:37If we had a longer timeline,

3:25:40could some of that infrastructure potentially be moved

3:25:42out of the parking lots?

3:25:45Through the mayor, those are the things

3:25:46that we'd have to look at.

3:25:47Like so there was one parking lot

3:25:49that had major infrastructure underneath it.

3:25:51So what's the cost of that?

3:25:54There's other parking lots that we looked at

3:25:56based on historic use,

3:25:58would probably require a risk assessment

3:26:01or a proper environmental assessment.

3:26:03Phase one, phase two, takes some time.

3:26:06So if we were looking at moving quickly

3:26:10with a more unencumbered site,

3:26:12those who are, I don't wanna say they were ruled out,

3:26:15but they were determined to have a longer gestation period.

3:26:20Let's say before we can bring them forward

3:26:22to council for consideration.

3:26:24So that's further work to do.

3:26:26They're not ruled out.

3:26:29They're not easy projects to move forward with

3:26:32in the short term.

3:26:33Okay, okay, I appreciate that.

3:26:34Thank you, thank you, worship.

3:26:35Yep, thank you.

3:26:37So if you don't mind everyone,

3:26:38just I'm gonna pause for a second.

3:26:40If that's okay, okay.

3:26:45Yep, thank you so much.

3:26:46I see you councillor Billings, thank you.

3:26:49I'll put you down.

3:26:50I have a Rourke would be next and then in the new Billings,

3:26:53but if everyone is okay,

3:26:55I think I'd like to just quickly try to get off the page here,

3:26:59to receive only vote,

3:27:01but I'm gonna go to comments, okay?

3:27:03So Alt and then Kate.

3:27:07Thank you, I wasn't certain

3:27:07whether you were taking the questions first.

3:27:10Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

3:27:12Just got my timer started here.

3:27:15First of all, I want to thank the delegates

3:27:16as a former person who worked down and built a co-op

3:27:20in the chair of the housing authority

3:27:21before it was reduced to the counties.

3:27:24I cannot support the motion to receive this report

3:27:27nor the mayor's motions to open up Parkland to development.

3:27:30This is a dangerous precedent,

3:27:31potentially leading to all green space being open.

3:27:34For a city priding itself on its environmental initiatives,

3:27:36this is a complete reversal in principles.

3:27:39I categorically reject the notion that parks

3:27:41or areas of parks with programmed activities

3:27:44are somehow sacrosanct

3:27:45and those with limited or no scheduled programs

3:27:48can be up for grabs.

3:27:50Parks are neither the problem nor the solution,

3:27:52and it is a false paradigm to suggest

3:27:54that turning Parkland into 10% reduced cost,

3:27:57owner occupied or reduced rent can solve our problems.

3:28:01At the present, Guelph has approximately 4,000 to 6,000 units

3:28:04currently approved for building, but not under construction.

3:28:08A staff document reveals we do not need to have a fire sale

3:28:11on a green space.

3:28:13Quoting, Guelph maintains enough land supply

3:28:15to meet the minimum requirements

3:28:16of the provincial policy statement.

3:28:18Currently, there's a short term housing supply

3:28:21of 6.4 years on lands that are zoned

3:28:24when considering lands that are designated

3:28:26and available for residential development.

3:28:28Guelph's total housing supply is able to accommodate

3:28:31a total of 17.9 years of residential housing growth.

3:28:36The Claremont-Besquendery Plan, settled and approved in 2024,

3:28:40will further contribute to the city's

3:28:42future housing supply end quote.

3:28:44But to return to parks, parks are for people,

3:28:47seniors, children, mothers with infants,

3:28:50people not seeking programmed activities.

3:28:52They are especially for those

3:28:53who can't afford recreation elsewhere.

3:28:56The premise of parkland must be programmed

3:28:59is insulting to creativity and imagined nation.

3:29:02When I was a child, my parents could not afford programming

3:29:05and most of my neighbors could not either

3:29:07by the definition we were poor.

3:29:10We did it ourselves, tag, pickup ball, endless football

3:29:13and soccer championships among kids unable to take vacations,

3:29:17not affording minor sports nor summer camps nor cottages.

3:29:21Mums kicked us outside to play in the park.

3:29:24It is absurd to elevate programming

3:29:26above casual park visits.

3:29:28I don't want to have to schedule a time

3:29:30to sit under a tree to protect a park from development.

3:29:34Kids who live in poverty or whose parents just get by

3:29:37with the assistance of food banks and breakfast programs

3:29:40are among us in growing numbers.

3:29:42We don't fight poverty, alienation and urban decay

3:29:45by taking away parks.

3:29:47Instead, we seek real solutions.

3:29:49New co-op and social housing programs,

3:29:52more parkland dedication, the development

3:29:54of those property staff mentioned in the May 31st report.

3:29:59Without parks, what happens to Guelph Street, Canobie?

3:30:02I don't know.

3:30:03Do we plant trees on top of high rises?

3:30:06Do we say our goal was aspirational?

3:30:08I cannot support either the report

3:30:10nor the mayor's upcoming motions

3:30:12because of the principles of strong mayor's edict.

3:30:15This is not a council report.

3:30:17We didn't ask for a report on selling off parkland.

3:30:20It is the mayor's to decide.

3:30:22Council knows the answer.

3:30:24Builders must build on land already approved

3:30:27for development to accept that Hugh Guthrie Park

3:30:30is open for development,

3:30:31puts every park in the city on the block.

3:30:34In exhibition park, there's surely an acre or two.

3:30:37Riverside and Royal City Park similarly,

3:30:39but especially the Bullfrog Park,

3:30:42Mico Valeriat Park, Drew Park, Goldie Mill Park,

3:30:45Herb Markle Park, small parcels addressing a need

3:30:49which are vulnerable.

3:30:51And that's not acceptable to me.

3:30:52We need green spaces for recreation

3:30:54and real housing solutions

3:30:56that do not compromise parks, green spaces and principles.

3:31:00I'm in favor of infill, in favor of inclusive zoning,

3:31:04three plexes, four plexes,

3:31:06three and four bedroom units for large families,

3:31:08but we don't solve a housing crisis

3:31:11by pitting parks against poverty.

3:31:13It's a false dichotomy.

3:31:17All right, thank you.

3:31:19Kate and again, we're just comments about receiving.

3:31:24Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

3:31:26I am against receiving this report

3:31:30because I feel that we will be making decisions

3:31:33without all of the information.

3:31:34We've got several reports upcoming

3:31:37and this is not at all a commentary on staff's effort.

3:31:41I think that they did a great job going through

3:31:43in providing information on what they were asked to provide.

3:31:47I just feel that if we're going to be making motions,

3:31:50then we need to have all of the information

3:31:52and that information is still yet to come.

3:31:54Thank you.

3:31:56Great, thank you.

3:31:57Can I call the vote to receive, folks,

3:31:59just to receive the report?

3:32:01Great, those against.

3:32:05Boussatil and Richardson and Alt and Kate

3:32:11and Billings and Koran.

3:32:15Okay, thank you.

3:32:19Sorry, I am just meaning to make sure I count that.

3:32:23Is Councillor Gibson with us?

3:32:26In favor, Mr. Mayor, in favor of receiving.

3:32:29Okay, you're with us.

3:32:30Okay, hold on, clerks, what was that?

3:32:33Six, five, six?

3:32:35I have seven, four, six against.

3:32:38Okay, okay, so passed, okay, fine.

3:32:41All right, let's move on to Councillor Chew,

3:32:47I believe has agreed to move a couple of motions

3:32:51for consideration of council.

3:32:53So we will, if we could have those up on the screen.

3:32:57Now, I just want to give an opportunity here

3:33:00right after they are presented that Councillor Downer,

3:33:05I believe needs to maybe state something in regards.

3:33:10Maybe the motion should be shown first.

3:33:13So we'll show them and then if,

3:33:17so I'll just turn it over to Councillor Downer for a moment.

3:33:19Okay, given the motion that's now been put on the floor,

3:33:23it hasn't been put on the floor?

3:33:26No, so let me see if it gets on the floor first,

3:33:28moved by Councillor Chew, seconded by,

3:33:32is there anyone that was willing to second it?

3:33:34Oh, maybe not.

3:33:36Hold on, let me.

3:33:36Happy to second, Mr. Mayor.

3:33:40Okay, you'll second it, Councillor Gibson.

3:33:42Okay.

3:33:43Yep.

3:33:44Okay.

3:33:45So it's on the floor and I'll just read it

3:33:47that staff be directed to initiate the required studies,

3:33:50applications and actions to create development ready sites

3:33:54at Hugh Guthrie and Sliman Parks as outlined in report 2024308

3:33:59and that an amount not to exceed 400,000 funded

3:34:02from the Housing Accelerator Fund be allocated

3:34:05to complete this work and that staff be directed

3:34:07to develop and release a request

3:34:09for expression of interest following the completion

3:34:12of all required studies, applications and actions

3:34:14to seek a proponent to develop affordable units

3:34:17at Hugh Guthrie and Sliman Parks as outlined

3:34:21in the report 2024308.

3:34:25With that, I just got to turn over to Councillor Downer.

3:34:28Yes, so I'm going to declare a conflict

3:34:31on the issue of the Hugh Guthrie Park.

3:34:36I have property that's within exactly 120 metres

3:34:41so if it's directing it to go to a planning application

3:34:44and the Planning Act that would be in a conflict.

3:34:47I spoke to the integrity commissioner.

3:34:49There's no conflict to receive or refer this report

3:34:53but for that part, so I would also ask

3:34:56that the motions be split into two separated

3:35:00so that I could vote on the Sliman Park one

3:35:03and not the Hugh Guthrie one.

3:35:06Okay, so if you could make sure that you,

3:35:10what we'll do is we'll do the vote on Guthrie one first

3:35:14then two clerks and then we'll do Sliman second.

3:35:18Okay, I think we all, I'm just going to call it out loud here.

3:35:22We all kind of think know where we stand, honestly.

3:35:24Like we really kind of think know where we stand on this.

3:35:27So is there anything on this

3:35:32before we go any further?

3:35:36Councillor Caron, I saw your hand first.

3:35:39Then Guller.

3:35:45Yes, I'm sorry.

3:35:46Yeah, I have to go back to my original list, Councillor Caron.

3:35:49I'm sorry.

3:35:49O'Rourke, then Billings and then I will go to Cron, okay?

3:35:53So I'm sorry about that.

3:35:56Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:35:56I've got some questions for staff.

3:36:00I am wondering for these two parks in question.

3:36:04I did a lot of work before with the Canadian Index

3:36:06of Well-Being and they had done a study in Guelph years ago

3:36:11and they found that the proximity to parks was very different.

3:36:15It was a lot lower for people who had lower incomes

3:36:18at the time below $40,000.

3:36:22The number of people who strongly agree

3:36:23versus very strongly agree there was a park near them

3:36:26was 41% for people under 40,000

3:36:28and it was 63% for people over 100,000.

3:36:32So I'm just wondering,

3:36:34I don't know what the demographics are of these two areas.

3:36:38Are there other parks nearby

3:36:41that would be easy substitutes for the community,

3:36:49for the surrounding community?

3:36:51So if we take 1.3 acres of a park,

3:36:56is there another park that's really nearby?

3:37:01Through the mayor, we did look at parks in the area

3:37:04and I can pass it over to Mr. Jefferson as well.

3:37:07I don't have the demographics of that specific neighborhood.

3:37:10That's something that we'd have to come back

3:37:11to council with for the month end.

3:37:20Thank you, James.

3:37:22Through the mayor to council work,

3:37:23I would suggest that perhaps,

3:37:25I think I'm just pulling it up now

3:37:28but I don't have it in front of me.

3:37:29So I think there may be a opportunity to follow up.

3:37:32I'm just wondering whether we did some park equity mapping

3:37:35in the, as part of the park plan.

3:37:36So perhaps there's room follow up on that question

3:37:41to give further clarity.

3:37:42Okay, that'll be an important decision point for me.

3:37:46Through you, Mayor Guthrie, staff,

3:37:48I'm just wondering,

3:37:49did we also look at things that could be adaptive reuse

3:37:52or rapid reuse like the pottery studio

3:37:57that also has land that is also in transition?

3:38:02Through the mayor, that's part of our further work.

3:38:05That would be what we,

3:38:07the pottery, for example,

3:38:08there is an agreement there right now, a use agreement.

3:38:11So that would be something that didn't need

3:38:12a short-term deliverable

3:38:13but definitely is something we are looking at

3:38:15as part of our further work over the course of this year.

3:38:19Okay, thank you.

3:38:21Through you, Mayor Guthrie, I'm wondering,

3:38:24what is the city's obligation

3:38:26if we issue a request for expressions of interest?

3:38:30Is it then a foregone conclusion

3:38:31that we need to accept one of them?

3:38:34And the reason I'm asking is we just had

3:38:36a conversation about the drill hall

3:38:38where several months later,

3:38:39we're like, well, maybe we could do this or do that.

3:38:42And the proponents are saying, wait a minute,

3:38:44that wasn't in the original request

3:38:46for expressions of interest.

3:38:47So what's our obligation when we issue one?

3:38:51And how do we know when we issue it

3:38:53that all the conditions,

3:38:56the necessary conditions are baked in?

3:39:01Through the mayor, that's something

3:39:03that we'll work with our purchasing team on.

3:39:06Yeah, with these requests for expressions of interest,

3:39:09you are asking people to do work,

3:39:10invest time, invest money, come up with drawings.

3:39:13So you have to be,

3:39:16you are moving forward with the project,

3:39:19potentially if there is something that comes back

3:39:21and meets the criteria and how it was evaluated.

3:39:24So when you do these things,

3:39:26you have to be clear on what you're looking for.

3:39:27You have to be clear on what the evaluation criteria is.

3:39:31And then if you have proponents that meet that,

3:39:34I think there is an expectation to move forward

3:39:36if they spent time and money submitting a proposal.

3:39:40Okay, so through you Mayor Guthrie to staff,

3:39:43the staff report talks about 10% below market potentially

3:39:48or potentially 30% income.

3:39:50So how do we make sure, should there be an RFEOI,

3:39:56that there are really ironclad measures

3:39:58to ensure that that is subsidized or affordable housing?

3:40:01How do we make sure people don't get a unit in there

3:40:03and then sell it at market rate in five, 10 or 20 years?

3:40:09So through the Mayor,

3:40:10that's something we're working on

3:40:12with legal services planning.

3:40:14That through the Housing Accelerator Fund,

3:40:18I spoke about the Community Improvement Plan,

3:40:21the Affordable Housing Demonstration Project, those things,

3:40:24we need to come up with a mechanism to ensure that

3:40:28if the city of Guelph foregoes

3:40:33development charge, for example,

3:40:35because somebody's developing an affordable housing unit,

3:40:38we need to ensure that we address exactly

3:40:42what you're talking about in terms of how do we make sure

3:40:46that somebody doesn't buy a place at an affordable rate,

3:40:50turn around and flip it and make a profit.

3:40:52So we're looking at ways that we can ensure

3:40:55what I call the city's investment in affordable housing

3:40:59and how we make sure that that,

3:41:02what rules are in place to address that.

3:41:04I don't know if Christa you had anything

3:41:06that you wanted to add to that.

3:41:14Thanks and through the Mayor to the council,

3:41:16I can just add that the affordable housing targets

3:41:19are set by the city every year in an annual report.

3:41:24This year they are based on the Minister's

3:41:26Affordable Housing Bulletin that came out

3:41:28and was included in our information report.

3:41:33So our affordable housing rate,

3:41:34which we would achieve has to meet our target.

3:41:37And in most cases, for example,

3:41:40it's going to be the 60th of your income percentage

3:41:43because it's the lesser or 10% of market or the income rate.

3:41:49So for example, purchase in Guelph,

3:41:52the affordable rate this year is $398,800.

3:41:57So that is much less than,

3:42:00would be a typical 10% reduction.

3:42:02So we would use those numbers and for rental,

3:42:05there's bachelor one bedroom,

3:42:06two bedroom and three bedroom rates,

3:42:07which are all based on income.

3:42:15Thanks, so I didn't, through the Mayor,

3:42:16I didn't want to interrupt that train of thought.

3:42:18I just wanted to provide a bit of a correction

3:42:19on the pottery studio just so that we didn't leave

3:42:22misinformation that the pottery studio,

3:42:23we are actually the tenant in the pottery studio.

3:42:26So it is an option that will I think come back

3:42:29through the team's broader work

3:42:31that will be coming back in early 2025.

3:42:33And it is an option that I think we would,

3:42:35although there are some setback requirements

3:42:37required by Metrolinx due to the proximity

3:42:39to the rail corridor.

3:42:40So it is on the longer term,

3:42:42it wasn't an option to bring you now,

3:42:44but because we, the recreation services team,

3:42:47are actually the tenant in that building,

3:42:48it is a very good option that I think we would look at

3:42:51as part of that broader study

3:42:53that you will be receiving back in early 2025.

3:42:55So I just wanted to provide that clarity

3:42:57so that we didn't leave you with the impression

3:43:00that that wasn't an option that we weren't pursuing,

3:43:02but there is that Metrolinx setback requirement

3:43:07that we are gonna need to look at.

3:43:10Through you, Marga,

3:43:11through just one or two more.

3:43:13I'm really struggling with the use of public park space

3:43:19for housing, especially if it goes into private hands

3:43:23because it would not be subject to rent control

3:43:27because it would be occupied after 2018.

3:43:29So I don't know what the magic considerations are

3:43:33or what is in somebody's lease

3:43:36to make sure that they're protected from increasing rates.

3:43:39And I certainly don't think that there'd be any protection

3:43:41in terms of resale.

3:43:43So that becomes a city subsidy to the purchaser or renter.

3:43:49I'm just wondering through you, Marga, through the staff,

3:43:52have we talked to the county about if we proceeded,

3:43:57could we build subsidized housing on these properties

3:44:01because there's 3,000 people on the wait list

3:44:04for subsidized housing?

3:44:06So have we looked at prioritizing that instead?

3:44:10I'd be a lot warmer to that idea

3:44:14than I am to just an RFEOI for parkland.

3:44:21Through the mayor, we were responding

3:44:24to the direction that we were provided.

3:44:26So that would be a new direction of council.

3:44:31So it's not something we've looked at at this moment,

3:44:34at least we didn't as part of this exercise.

3:44:36I'm not sure if other service areas have.

3:44:43Through the mayor to council or work,

3:44:44that's not something that we have pursued at this time

3:44:46that wasn't part of this direction.

3:44:48But certainly, I think depending on the direction

3:44:51that you gave us, that's definitely a conversation

3:44:53that could be had with the county.

3:44:56Okay, those are my questions.

3:44:58Marga three, I'm struggling here.

3:45:01Okay, thank you.

3:45:02I just want us a little bit of clarity

3:45:03before I go to council or billings.

3:45:07You did mention though that in an upcoming report

3:45:09between now and that upcoming report

3:45:11that you were going to be sort of knocking

3:45:12on the door of the county properties and stuff like that,

3:45:15but that's for their properties.

3:45:17Councillor O'Rourke's question was more for

3:45:21this particular properties,

3:45:23could the county also be interested in that?

3:45:26I would expect that with a request

3:45:28for expression of interest, anybody can bid.

3:45:31Anybody can come and take a look at that.

3:45:33So that would include the county, would it not?

3:45:36That's correct.

3:45:37Yeah, okay, thank you.

3:45:39And I'm gonna go back to just for clarification

3:45:42from councillor O'Rourke.

3:45:43Thanks, Marga, so just on that.

3:45:46So when I've been involved in procurement processes,

3:45:49there's a grid, right?

3:45:51I'm guessing there's some kind of grid

3:45:52and the request for expression of interest.

3:45:55Who's going to set what the points are

3:45:59on that grid for a successful proponent?

3:46:01Are we looking for maximum dollars?

3:46:03Are we looking at maximum subsidy?

3:46:05Are we looking at maximum density?

3:46:09For me, there's a lot of questions here

3:46:11and I'm trying to understand.

3:46:13If we just say go and do a request

3:46:15for expression of interest,

3:46:16I don't know what's in that expression of interest.

3:46:19Yeah, I'm not through the mayor.

3:46:21I'm not sure how things are down here in Guelph,

3:46:23but given the interest in this, in the concerns,

3:46:27I think what we would do is develop an expression

3:46:31of interest with the criteria

3:46:33and probably bring that back to council

3:46:35for input and approval.

3:46:44Thank you, Billings.

3:46:48Please, thank you, Ron.

3:46:51Well, through you, Mr. Mayor,

3:46:53my question was the comment in the report

3:46:56about the land inventory report coming back.

3:46:59Maybe I'm incorrect,

3:47:00but I thought it said it would be coming back

3:47:02in January of 2025 and then today I'm hearing,

3:47:06oh, well, Q1, which doesn't necessarily mean January.

3:47:11So I was just wondering if there was,

3:47:14or could be a strong commitment from staff that it would,

3:47:16that report would be back to council by January,

3:47:21only because I'm struggling as well.

3:47:24And I don't think we're looking at this issue holistically.

3:47:28It would give me more comfort

3:47:30if we had that city land inventory report in front of us.

3:47:34So is it possible that you could commit to January or not?

3:47:44Yeah, through the mayor, as I said,

3:47:46we'll finish the work at the end of this year

3:47:47and we can commit to January to bring the report back.

3:47:51Okay, thank you.

3:47:54Thank you, Coran.

3:47:57Yeah, thank you.

3:47:59Like most of you, I mean, my comments are summary comments.

3:48:02I did send potential motion to defer to clerks.

3:48:08I'm not kind of centering on a table that right now

3:48:10because I do wanna hear where this discussion is going

3:48:13and I do wanna hear the summary comments

3:48:15of all of my colleagues before making that decision.

3:48:18But for me, one of the important components here

3:48:22is that we do have these studies

3:48:24as councillor Billings outlined coming back,

3:48:26the citywide inventory,

3:48:28as well as the housing affordability strategy.

3:48:31And those are key pieces of data-driven

3:48:33and community engagement pieces

3:48:35for part of this decision making in my mind.

3:48:38That aside, I do wanna address my comments

3:48:42specifically to the use of parkland.

3:48:44And we're told by the province,

3:48:47we're told that the housing support symposium

3:48:49and we're told by the development industry

3:48:52that the barrier to building more housing

3:48:54is red tape infrastructure, labor and materials

3:48:57and high interest rates

3:48:58and never has it been about lack of land.

3:49:01So when we talk about parkland as an underutilized asset,

3:49:06I get, I really, it's not an underutilized asset ever.

3:49:12Our own staff have told us that we're in a deficit

3:49:14and that it's only getting worse.

3:49:16Unprogrammed does not mean underutilized.

3:49:19The passive parkland serves a wide variety of functions,

3:49:23notably groundwater recharge,

3:49:25which water watchers certainly outlined in their presentation.

3:49:29Parkland in my mind doesn't belong to the corporation

3:49:32as a real estate holding.

3:49:34Belongs to the people of Guelph

3:49:36and we are merely the entrusted stewards and caretakers.

3:49:40Parkland is a social contract.

3:49:43And if we start developing parkland,

3:49:46we need to acknowledge that our development community

3:49:49or private development community has failed.

3:49:52If the private sector cannot deliver the housing we need

3:49:56and as a result of that,

3:49:57the city is now going to act in the role of developer,

3:50:00a real estate developer,

3:50:02then we have officially crossed that lane

3:50:04into a new business model.

3:50:06We are now developers.

3:50:08Are we sure we really want to go there?

3:50:11And whether parkland will actually address the housing crisis,

3:50:15I'm not convinced

3:50:16because I don't have any evidence to support that.

3:50:19In fact, what I do have evidence for

3:50:21is that we have 6,000 units in backlog.

3:50:24And that means that diverting the infrastructure

3:50:27to these sites in the report

3:50:29means that our planned capital infrastructure

3:50:32on other sites is going to have to be deferred.

3:50:34And those other sites are zoned and ready

3:50:37for residential development.

3:50:40I think rezoning any green space

3:50:43and issuing an REOI development without any evidence

3:50:48that it is needed is actually what happened last year

3:50:50with Premier Ford's Greenbelt Giveaway scandal.

3:50:55Those reports showed that land was not needed

3:50:57to address critical housing supply

3:50:59and the public outcry later resulted

3:51:02in the Greenbelt land scheme being rescinded

3:51:06by the provincial government.

3:51:08We also learned during the housing continuum study

3:51:11that our critical need in the community

3:51:14is social and supportive housing.

3:51:15And if that's the case,

3:51:16the only questionable course of action

3:51:19would be a public partnership with the county

3:51:23to build social housing or to offer a land lease

3:51:27in public housing development.

3:51:30I think affordability is a red herring.

3:51:32I think 10% lower than market value

3:51:35does not address our local needs.

3:51:37And for me, in terms of a planning context,

3:51:40we just passed motions at council

3:51:42to allow forplexes to go ahead

3:51:44and to expedite arterial road density.

3:51:47And we haven't even allowed,

3:51:50you know, six months, let alone a year

3:51:53to see that work unfold.

3:51:55We have one of the highest housing starts in the province,

3:51:58the city of Guelph,

3:51:58and kudos to us and our planning staff,

3:52:00which is why we're getting the funding

3:52:02from the president at the press

3:52:03and the province to expedite our infrastructure.

3:52:07So today we're talking about expediency.

3:52:09And expediency to address the crisis,

3:52:12I think in my opinion is being used as a justification

3:52:15for this report moving forward quickly.

3:52:17And expediency should never be the substitute

3:52:20for informed decision-making.

3:52:22Crisis is not a word that I take lightly.

3:52:25And we passed a motion recognizing a climate crisis.

3:52:29And our climate decisions make affordability,

3:52:33affect affordability even more

3:52:36than this motion before us today.

3:52:38And yet we don't move our climate change actions forward

3:52:40at the lightning speed that we're doing so today.

3:52:43So again, I'd like to hear what my colleagues have to say

3:52:47and I may come back around to a motion to defer

3:52:50because I really do think we need the housing affordability

3:52:54strategy work to be completed before we go forward

3:52:57with any actions on the recommendations on the floor.

3:53:03Thank you.

3:53:06Last on my list here is Cawson.

3:53:09And then I see you lots of other hands.

3:53:13Yes, actually thank you.

3:53:15And thank you to my colleagues for their questions

3:53:19because I too am struggling a little bit with this one.

3:53:23But I'm gonna start with a question

3:53:25and not go to comment straight away.

3:53:27I do have a question around the models

3:53:31and what kind of agreements we are familiar with

3:53:35in this type of construction of nonprofit

3:53:39and cooperative housing on public land specifically.

3:53:43Would this necessarily have to be a sale

3:53:46or could there be a long-term lease in place?

3:53:52Through the chair, we could look at both.

3:53:57Thank you.

3:54:00Yeah, I think I'm, can I make a comment?

3:54:02Yeah, so like my colleagues, I'm not a fan

3:54:06of taking away public land from the public,

3:54:11particularly park land.

3:54:13I am struggling because we do, you know,

3:54:18as my colleague, Councillor Kerron said,

3:54:21we do have a housing crisis.

3:54:22And so I don't want to take away from the idea

3:54:27that we should be looking at all types of solutions.

3:54:31And I think this is a good example

3:54:33of looking at different types of solutions.

3:54:36I do have concerns that the first,

3:54:41the items on the menu tonight are parks.

3:54:44I think it brings a controversial lens to the subject,

3:54:49which I think is in its spirit good.

3:54:52I think we should be looking at public lands.

3:54:55We really should be and we should be leading in the space

3:54:58and we should be encouraging our private sector partners

3:55:01to also be looking at their land

3:55:03and looking at more projects like Kindle

3:55:05and how they can be leaders in the space.

3:55:07I am a bit disappointed that we're talking about parks

3:55:11because, you know, now we've got our residents

3:55:14who are frustrated and upset

3:55:15because they feel like we're taking something away from them.

3:55:18Whereas, you know, I think there could be other options

3:55:21that, you know, are less controversial.

3:55:24So that's where I currently stand.

3:55:26I'm happy we're having this conversation.

3:55:30We need to be having these conversations.

3:55:32They're hard conversations to have.

3:55:34And I'm still on the fence here too.

3:55:39So I look forward to all of those other hands

3:55:42that went up as well.

3:55:45Thank you.

3:55:46Bousatil and then Gawar.

3:55:48Thank you.

3:55:49I'm just going to say ditto to Councillor Caron

3:55:52and Councillor Klassen and Councillor Oroch's comments

3:55:56and thank them for that.

3:55:57I did have written down a steward of park lands,

3:56:00you know, as an immigrant, I go back home to countries

3:56:04where there is no public land.

3:56:06If you go to a beach, there's no place publicly to sit down.

3:56:11All the chairs and umbrellas are all privatized on the beach.

3:56:15So this is really important to me.

3:56:18So for me, the answer is quite clearly no.

3:56:21Hands off the parks.

3:56:22Full stop.

3:56:23Hands off the parks.

3:56:25Because I take that quite seriously as a steward.

3:56:28When I look around the city, what I see in developments

3:56:32aren't neighborhood parks.

3:56:33They're parkettes that are half the size of a lot

3:56:37with maybe a bench there and a little playground.

3:56:41They are not sufficient for the health and well-being

3:56:43of those communities.

3:56:45And with reference to Councillor Oroch's,

3:56:47Sleiman Park is in one of the four priority neighborhoods

3:56:50in the city of Guelph.

3:56:52And we can do like City of Toronto poverty by postal code.

3:56:55And so I'm very concerned about saying a value judgment

3:57:00that a park isn't used when we're not systemically looking

3:57:04at well, why is it used?

3:57:06And what I hear from the families there

3:57:08is that they can't get to it safely.

3:57:11So I'm very concerned about that.

3:57:12So for me, I will not be supporting any use of parks.

3:57:16And I really wish and encourage Councillor Caron

3:57:19to put her deferral to Q1 January when we have the full picture

3:57:25here, then we can have a conversation.

3:57:28Now, with that low hanging fruit in these neighborhoods,

3:57:32I am completely opposed to doing that.

3:57:35Parks, our health, well-being, mental health,

3:57:38and part of our community ecosystem.

3:57:42So I cannot support Parkland at all.

3:57:47Great.

3:57:47Thank you.

3:57:49Guller than Chew.

3:57:51Thank you, Chair Worship.

3:57:54I had a question about why we put in affordable housing

3:57:59supposed to senior housing or student housing.

3:58:01And I understand that's the direction that was given to staff.

3:58:05So that was answered.

3:58:07I have sent an amendment to the clerks

3:58:10that I would like to move.

3:58:12And it is to add, in addition to the two parks,

3:58:15to add the word city parking lots.

3:58:19And to replace the word affordable housing

3:58:22with the words government-owned social housing

3:58:25or co-op housing.

3:58:26So that we make it clear that this could not

3:58:30be a private development that has 80% of market costs.

3:58:36So that it limits to us retaining the land.

3:58:42And I will wait until it's up on the screen

3:58:45and see if I get a seconder on this motion.

3:58:49I don't see a seconder.

3:58:52So if I could just maybe make a comment

3:58:55to help out.

3:58:56I'm sorry.

3:58:58Councillor Chew, are you seconding that?

3:59:00I'll second it so we can.

3:59:04OK.

3:59:05OK.

3:59:09May I just jump in?

3:59:10Just for my thoughts.

3:59:11And staff, please jump in.

3:59:13But the development-ready sites at city parking lots,

3:59:20that was already undertaken by staff.

3:59:23And it's still being undertaken by them anyways

3:59:26in the upcoming report.

3:59:28So that's number one.

3:59:29Number two, in regards to how you're trying to scope things,

3:59:33I would say that if council would agree to actually moving

3:59:38forward on a request for expression of interest,

3:59:41you've heard our staff say that they would bring back

3:59:45the actual scoped request for expression of interest

3:59:48based on the definitions of what would be satisfactory

3:59:51to this council anyways.

3:59:53My preference as the chair would be that you would

3:59:57if the overall intent here was to pass.

4:00:01Don't try to scope it now.

4:00:03Let staff go away to scope it in the terms of reference

4:00:07for the request for expression of interest

4:00:09and have that come back.

4:00:10And then that's where we have that debate.

4:00:13I just don't think on the fly us trying

4:00:17to limit what is possible is appropriate.

4:00:24It's on the floor.

4:00:26It's a technically on the floor.

4:00:28So is there any questions on this at all?

4:00:33Just one second.

4:00:34The clerks is going to make a comment.

4:00:38Just for a point of clarity here,

4:00:41because of the declaration by council are down

4:00:46and we've separated the motion.

4:00:47So right now we have an amendment just for the Hugh Guthrie

4:00:51Park.

4:00:52Yes.

4:00:53If this was.

4:00:54So let's have councillor downer not vote on this one

4:00:57at all then because it's directly related to councillor

4:00:59to Guthrie Park.

4:01:01And then what we'll have to do is when

4:01:02we move on to the next one, if a similar amendment were

4:01:05to come, we would do the same.

4:01:06Yes.

4:01:07OK, so is everyone ready?

4:01:09We're going to call the vote on this amendment just

4:01:12specific to the Guthrie Park.

4:01:14OK.

4:01:16OK.

4:01:17City parking lots and the government

4:01:19owns social housing, cooperative housing.

4:01:21OK.

4:01:23Yep.

4:01:24Go right ahead.

4:01:26Thanks, Mayor Guthrie.

4:01:27So I can't support the motion because staff

4:01:33have told us the city parking lots can't be in that.

4:01:35I don't know if the $400,000 or $200,000

4:01:38is sufficient now to do the required work that

4:01:42was described in the report by adding the city parking lots.

4:01:45And so I don't even know if that number is correct anymore.

4:01:52So on that basis, I just it's it's

4:01:55I don't have enough information to make a good decision

4:01:57on this motion.

4:02:00OK, thank you.

4:02:01And then Councillor Alder, I'd like to call the vote after this.

4:02:03Ditto to Councillor Oroch and the words park is still in there

4:02:08so I cannot support it regardless.

4:02:11OK, I'll call the vote.

4:02:13Is anyone not?

4:02:16Might be easier if I do it the other way.

4:02:18Is anyone not in favor of this amendment?

4:02:26OK, so that's the only two that are for it is Councillor Chew

4:02:30and Gawar, so it fails.

4:02:31OK, all right, we're back to the regular motion.

4:02:35And I have Councillor Chew for sorry, Councillor Gawar,

4:02:38did you have comments before I go to Councillor Chew for comments?

4:02:42No, no, your worship.

4:02:43OK, thank you, Councillor Chew.

4:02:45You had comments?

4:02:48Yeah, three, Mr. Mayor.

4:02:49I'll keep it brief because I think we know where one

4:02:52stands on this at the moment.

4:02:53But I think it's important to just look at the merits of what's

4:02:57being proposed.

4:02:58Like even if you don't agree with how it's being brought forward,

4:03:02I think at the end of the day, we have an opportunity

4:03:04to channel some of our efforts at a physical project

4:03:09to just find ways in which we can recalibrate

4:03:13our internal processes.

4:03:14And at the end of the day, this is an opportunity for us

4:03:17to continue to have the conversations

4:03:20and look at the merits of how we revitalize our park spaces

4:03:24while also bringing in truly affordable housing units.

4:03:27We went to some of us went to FCM not too long ago.

4:03:30And the common denominator is that it's much easier

4:03:34to have a public proponent work with private entities

4:03:40in this day and age to get anything forward.

4:03:42If you want to access and unlock CMHC housing funding

4:03:45opportunities, you need a public proponent.

4:03:48And I just think there's an opportunity right now for us

4:03:51to really evaluate the merits of what's being proposed.

4:03:56And I understand that the community has reservations

4:03:59around Hugh Guthrie Park and Sleeman Park

4:04:03to be put on a microscope for a conversation.

4:04:06But if you just look contextually at these sites,

4:04:09they're right next to transit.

4:04:12Hugh Guthrie Park's on an arterial road.

4:04:15There's an adjacent ball diamond just not too far away.

4:04:21I think it's within 300 meters from the ball diamonds

4:04:24in Hugh Guthrie Park.

4:04:25And Hugh Guthrie Park is a mature neighborhood

4:04:28with a bunch of healthy schools and community facilities

4:04:31and religious institutions right within the area.

4:04:36And I think we have staff.

4:04:39I'm going to call out Luke Jefferson.

4:04:41He's a fantastic landscape architect that's really

4:04:44working hard on the realty side of things.

4:04:47So I don't think we need to be fearful of looking

4:04:51at these opportunities.

4:04:53And I think there has to be some thought leadership

4:04:55from Council to further the dialogue.

4:04:58And I think for me, we can have these conversations

4:05:03and continue them.

4:05:04And I think this is the reason why I am really

4:05:07supportive of this.

4:05:09And I just want to make my comments clear in the public form.

4:05:12So if anyone wants to talk to me or any of us on Council,

4:05:16this is what we're here for.

4:05:18And we need to continue that.

4:05:19So I'll just end off with that.

4:05:23OK, thank you.

4:05:25All right.

4:05:27Go to certain to circle here, folks, just so everyone knows.

4:05:30And I've been keeping time.

4:05:33And a lot of you are literally seconds away

4:05:35from your five minute limit.

4:05:37So speaking of that, Councillor Caron,

4:05:39I saw your hand go up and then it'll work.

4:05:42But Councillor Caron, you literally

4:05:43are almost at your five minute mark, just so you know.

4:05:45OK?

4:05:49I think Councillor Caitlin had a hand up before me.

4:05:54OK.

4:05:55Councillor Caitlin and then Councillor Caron.

4:06:00Public land, yes.

4:06:01100% we should be putting things towards truly affordable

4:06:04units that would be affordable in perpetuity.

4:06:07I've recently been going around trying

4:06:09to help a friend get a rental in Guelph.

4:06:11And it is bleak and frustrating.

4:06:13And it's something that we definitely need.

4:06:15I think this is the only time you're

4:06:17going to hear me argue against something that is low barrier.

4:06:20But I think that sometimes if it's easy and fast,

4:06:24it doesn't mean it's the right choice.

4:06:26And there are so many downsides to using park land

4:06:30that it's just a 100% no from me for that.

4:06:35Thank you.

4:06:37Great.

4:06:37Thank you.

4:06:38Karan then it'll work.

4:06:41I only have 20 seconds left.

4:06:43Move a motion to defer.

4:06:45I've sent the motion to clerks.

4:06:47And I think for me, this is all about making

4:06:49a fully informed decision, not about expediency.

4:06:52We are failing at leadership and stewardship

4:06:55if we make a quick decision without full information.

4:06:59So we have a map of the city-wide land in Montgolais.

4:07:01And we have the housing affordability strategy.

4:07:03We have lots of data coming.

4:07:05And I think it all behooves us all to wait until the information

4:07:10is made.

4:07:11Before you continue, I just need to see

4:07:12if there's a seconder for a deferral.

4:07:17Billings.

4:07:18OK, thank you.

4:07:20So no, there's no debate.

4:07:22There's no question on a deferral motion.

4:07:23We must call the vote immediately.

4:07:26So I'm going to do that.

4:07:29So I'll just read it out.

4:07:30That any action on the item 10.1, mayoral direction B3,

4:07:33strategic real estate partnerships

4:07:35on underutilized city-owned assets 2024-308 be deferred

4:07:40until the housing affordability strategy has been

4:07:43received by council.

4:07:46Again, there's no debate, no comments.

4:07:48I must call the vote right now.

4:07:49That's the way the procedural by-law works.

4:07:52So all those against, please raise your hand.

4:07:57And Councillor Gibson, I don't know what you're doing.

4:08:01Against, Mr. Mayor.

4:08:02OK, so that's three against.

4:08:04So that passes to Gibson and Guthrie.

4:08:08All right, so that matter is completely done.

4:08:12And so thank you.

4:08:13We'll look forward to seeing more about that

4:08:16near the end of the year, I guess, when that comes forward.

4:08:19May I just stay on this topic for a moment?

4:08:22Because I wouldn't mind the agenda item is still

4:08:24technically live.

4:08:26I just want to ask about the next report that comes, which

4:08:30is the one, hopefully, in January of 2025.

4:08:36What I've gleaned from council's conversation today

4:08:40is I believe is a real expression of wanting to say,

4:08:45if we're going to leverage public property,

4:08:48we want it to go to the real need of the social,

4:08:53the affordable, the co-op, et cetera, right?

4:08:57Ownership, rental, whatever that mix is.

4:09:00So may I just ask the staff, would that be part

4:09:04of the criteria that you would bring back

4:09:08in that report in January 2025 that would spell out,

4:09:13like, hey, here's this menu of properties, 10, 20, 30,

4:09:1740 of them, whatever it is.

4:09:20And would you have embedded in that report

4:09:23that type of criteria that maybe this council

4:09:27and maybe the community as well would be looking for

4:09:30if we are to leverage our own assets

4:09:32that we actually result in the type of housing

4:09:35that we're looking for?

4:09:39To the mayor.

4:09:42The report that's coming back will

4:09:44be the identification of city-owned properties that

4:09:48could support residential development.

4:09:51What lens we put to it next is something

4:09:54that we could do through a request for expressions

4:09:56of interest.

4:09:57Let's have the inventory of the properties.

4:09:59So we know what we have.

4:10:01Are they developable?

4:10:02What would that timeline be for them?

4:10:04And then if council's desire at that time

4:10:07is to move forward along one of those streams of social housing

4:10:11or transitional housing or what have you,

4:10:13that could be something that would be part of a request

4:10:17or a request for proposal.

4:10:22All right, I'll take it a little bit more offline.

4:10:23But I think there is unity around the council chambers

4:10:28here around actually leveraging public property.

4:10:30It's just making sure that the result is what we're looking

4:10:33for, that's all of the type of housing that we want.

4:10:36So that's a takeaway.

4:10:37That's fair.

4:10:38Thank you so much.

4:10:40OK, there's two more issues on our agenda.

4:10:45But that was a good conversation.

4:10:46So let's take a break.

4:10:48I think that would be fair.

4:10:52So what we're going to do is we're

4:10:54going to take a 20-minute break right now if that's

4:10:57OK with everybody.

4:10:59So come back at 6 o'clock.

4:11:01And then we'll kick off with the presentation

4:11:04from our acting general manager, City Clerk, Dylan McMond.

4:11:08So Dylan, I see you there in the wings, as I say.

4:11:12So we'll see you back here at 6 o'clock.

4:11:15And we can go from there.

4:11:16OK, thank you so much.

4:30:20OK, I'm just going to call the meeting back to order

4:30:23if we can have cameras go on just so we can see who's

4:30:26joining us online.

4:30:27That would be great.

4:33:00OK, I'm going to call the meeting back to order

4:33:02because Dylan has prepared a great presentation for us.