Staff report back by October 2023 on any bylaw reviews that are recommended to be removed from the workplan in order to free up resources,

3:35:45I believe we have some delegations.

3:35:49Or okay, Councillor Goller,

3:35:51you'd like to speak to this item.

3:35:53Thank you, and through your chair too.

3:35:58I have sent motions to Council and to Clerk,

3:36:01so perhaps if it would be appropriate

3:36:04in advance of the delegations,

3:36:05if we can just show the motions

3:36:06and maybe put them on the floor,

3:36:07so the delegations are speaking to the motions,

3:36:11if that is okay with you.

3:36:14Yeah, sure.

3:36:15We're all on the same page.

3:36:16No problem.

3:36:17And I'll take a moment as we,

3:36:21to read these out, so we're all on the same page.

3:36:24And this stems back to from a staff report,

3:36:27that an information report from June 9th

3:36:30that had a list of the current Biolas

3:36:32that City Staff is working on

3:36:34and updating on their work plan.

3:36:39And over the last five years,

3:36:43I've heard from my constituents

3:36:44that have asked for some of these things on and off

3:36:47to be looked at by the City.

3:36:49So as we have received the report

3:36:52with the schedule of Biolas that the City is working on,

3:36:57this was an opportunity for us to say,

3:37:00maybe add some other ones to the workload,

3:37:02maybe take some off.

3:37:03So the first part of my motion,

3:37:05it's that staff report back by October 2023

3:37:08on any Biola reviews that are recommended

3:37:10to be removed from the work plan

3:37:12in order to free up resources.

3:37:14Looking at that work plan,

3:37:15there are some Biolas that are going to be considered

3:37:20and direction was given from a previous term of council,

3:37:25going back to 2010, 2014.

3:37:28So this is an opportunity for us to tell us

3:37:31if they are still relevant current

3:37:33or if some of them can be taken off

3:37:35from the future work plan.

3:37:37Number two is that staff report back by October 2023

3:37:41on the proposed timelines for changes to the work plan

3:37:44in order to add in an update to the noise Biola

3:37:48to explore the use of vehicle noise cameras in Guelph.

3:37:52Vehicle noise cameras are currently being used in Toronto

3:37:54and Edmonton and in other cities across North America.

3:37:58And with this motion specifically,

3:38:01it is to explore the use of vehicle noise cameras.

3:38:05I don't know what the regulatory changes

3:38:08would be required at the city level

3:38:10or at the provincial level.

3:38:11So number two is asking staff to look into it

3:38:14and to tell us if we could bring vehicle noise cameras

3:38:20to Guelph or not and what it would take.

3:38:23Number three is that staff report back by October 2023

3:38:27on the proposed timelines for changes to the work plan

3:38:29in order to add in the creation of a Biola

3:38:32that contains smokeless recreational wood burning fires.

3:38:36At present, the city prohibits all wood burning fires

3:38:41in recreational wood burning fires.

3:38:43However, I know that many wealth residents

3:38:46have in fact backyard fires.

3:38:49And this is a way to bring those people into compliance.

3:38:53I did do a look around neighboring municipalities

3:38:57and about a dozen municipalities in Ontario have guidelines.

3:39:01Some of them are very prescriptive.

3:39:03You need to get a permit from the fire chief.

3:39:05Some of them say if you have this specific device

3:39:08that doesn't allow for smoke

3:39:11or within this distance from property lines,

3:39:14you're allowed to do it.

3:39:15So at this point, there's just direction for staff

3:39:17to explore what it would take

3:39:20to allow recreational backyard fires in the city.

3:39:24Number four is that staff report back

3:39:27by October 2023 on the proposed timelines

3:39:30for changes to the work plan

3:39:32in order to add in the creation of a Biola

3:39:35banning the use and sale of fireworks.

3:39:37With this one here, I get complaints every year

3:39:45leading up to those couple of days

3:39:47that we're allowed to use fireworks.

3:39:48And after that, while most residents understand

3:39:53that we have fireworks for Canada Day,

3:39:56for New Year's Eve,

3:39:59the concerns that I'm hearing from my residents

3:40:01is that there is a use of fireworks

3:40:05in the week leading up and the week leading

3:40:08after those special events.

3:40:10So here the direction is for staff to look at

3:40:14what it would take to ban the sale of fireworks in the city

3:40:18and perhaps allow the use of drones

3:40:22to be used for light shows

3:40:24or allow fireworks on those specific dates.

3:40:28But I would be looking to ban the sale

3:40:31to the public of large within the city limits.

3:40:35So if I could have a seconder to put these on the floor.

3:40:39Yes, do you have Councillor Allt?

3:40:42Yeah, Councillor Allt would like to speak.

3:40:45It's okay, I'll let you speak to it first as well,

3:40:48just so we're kind of on topic.

3:40:49And then when we get to the delegation

3:40:51right after this quick.

3:40:53Thank you very much, Chair Chew.

3:40:55I appreciate that.

3:40:57I think the motions that have been presented

3:40:59by Councillor Goller are worthy of consideration.

3:41:03It is not necessarily the case

3:41:05that I will ultimately support all of them,

3:41:07but I think that we have to address the rationale

3:41:12and the reasoning behind many of the things

3:41:14that we do and don't do.

3:41:15For example, I've always been a fan of fireworks.

3:41:19I think they're wonderful, they're fun,

3:41:21but I also recognize that fireworks are getting bigger

3:41:24and they're louder and they are now no longer

3:41:29just the fireworks that we might have set off

3:41:31in our backyards, but many people are buying fireworks

3:41:35that are going beyond the pyrotechnics

3:41:37to being actually in some cases, dangerous.

3:41:41Similarly, yes, we have many citizens

3:41:44who do like to have backyard fires.

3:41:47I think there are some sound reasons for not having them.

3:41:50If we only merely reiterate why we are doing things,

3:41:54this is an important opportunity for council

3:41:58to determine what's still right

3:42:01or whether as times change,

3:42:03we have to bend with the times as well.

3:42:06Okay, thank you for that commentary.

3:42:09Why don't we get to our delegations

3:42:10just so we can get that moving?

3:42:14Because we have a few moving parts here,

3:42:16but all encompassing, we're talking about the bylaw review.

3:42:19But yes, let's go to the delegate.

3:42:24I see we have Donna Jensen from No More Noids Guelph.

3:42:35Can you hear me?

3:42:36Hi, this is Councillor Chew, can you hear me?

3:42:39Yes, I can.

3:42:41All right, so you have five minutes to speak

3:42:46and your time starts now.

3:42:49Okay, thank you so much.

3:42:50Good afternoon, everyone,

3:42:52and thank you for the opportunity to speak today

3:42:54and for the great discussion I've been listening in

3:42:56for since two o'clock,

3:42:57and I love what you're all bringing to the table.

3:43:00So thank you.

3:43:02I am part of No More Noids Guelph.

3:43:04We are a group of residents who want to see the city

3:43:06and the police take coordinated and considerate actions

3:43:10to address the problem of excessive noise vehicles

3:43:13on the city streets.

3:43:15And to that end,

3:43:15we strongly support bringing the Noids bylaw review forward

3:43:19into this year's review process

3:43:21in order to explore a noise camera pilot program.

3:43:25That the excessive noise is on the rise

3:43:27and second only to air pollution

3:43:29as the top environmental health has.

3:43:32Studies show that excessive noise triggers

3:43:42excessive noise triggers a taskative reactions in the body

3:43:48beyond our control,

3:43:49including the release of stress hormones,

3:43:52which over time lead to heart disease,

3:43:54high pretensions, weak disturbances and others.

3:43:57Serious health issues.

3:43:58Now the intermittent noise produced by extreme vehicles

3:44:02and aggressive driving habits like stunt driving

3:44:05breaks through background level noise

3:44:07and is even more detrimental to public health

3:44:09even if the average decibel levels are comparable.

3:44:13And since COVID, there's been a sharp increase

3:44:16in the excessive noise of stunt driving,

3:44:18revving of motorbikes, extreme car engines

3:44:21and altered mufflers,

3:44:22using loud exhaust pipes and modifications

3:44:25to intentionally make noise.

3:44:27These drivers travel along our city streets day and night,

3:44:31disturbing hundreds if not thousands of people

3:44:33in their wake.

3:44:34According to OPT Sergeant Terry Smith,

3:44:38stunt driving alone increased in excess of 120% since COVID

3:44:43and 140% since the beginning of 2022.

3:44:47Stunt driving, speeding, extreme vehicles

3:44:50and aggressive driving are all very closely linked,

3:44:54are increasing and due to a general lack of enforcement,

3:44:58are seemingly being accepted and normalized,

3:45:01sitting for just 10 minutes at almost any busy intersection

3:45:05or near a high school.

3:45:07On a sunny Sunday afternoon or one summer evening,

3:45:11one will be exposed to multiple noisy vehicles

3:45:15whose drivers are breaking the law

3:45:17and having their fun at our expense.

3:45:21One of our group members recently wrote

3:45:28one of these in my time, oh no.

3:45:31He's still live about three minutes.

3:45:34Okay, one of our group members recently wrote,

3:45:39the disregard these drivers have for the places we live

3:45:42is sadly astounding.

3:45:44When summer comes around,

3:45:46bending time outdoors and in one's yard

3:45:48should be enjoyable and not a stress-inducing activity.

3:45:52Which should have to come.

3:45:54Noise cameras are a tool that many cities around the world

3:45:58are piloting to deal with this growing public health issue.

3:46:02The technology includes microphones,

3:46:04calibrated to start recording at a certain noise level.

3:46:08The microphones can trigger a camera

3:46:12that snaps an image of the enemy vehicle

3:46:14whose owner is subsequently detected and signed.

3:46:17I believe he has been successfully deployed

3:46:20in New York City where fines are $1,000

3:46:23for first-time offenders and increased by 1,000

3:46:26for each subsequent offense.

3:46:29There's a growing body of evidence that demonstrates

3:46:32that this technology can support public health policy,

3:46:36free up the police and pave the way for safer, quieter streets

3:46:40as well as stimulate further important research

3:46:43on urban noise.

3:46:44An alternative to noise cameras is decreasing

3:46:47the police budget in order to hire more officers

3:46:50in the traffic division,

3:46:51which by all accounts is a very short staff.

3:46:54But most of us however, don't support the increase

3:46:58in the police budget quite the opposite in fact.

3:47:02As part of the role of dealing with this growing problem,

3:47:04we ask the city to consider the following,

3:47:07forming a noise committee to conduct a yearly analysis

3:47:11of the various offenders

3:47:13and explore the challenges around this regime.

3:47:16Launching a public education campaign

3:47:18about the health effects of excessive noise

3:47:20with the focus on noisy vehicles and enforcement.

3:47:24Research and noise camera technology

3:47:26and taking the required steps to deploy a pilot program.

3:47:30This will likely require amending existing bylaws

3:47:34to specify the safe, flexible level and testing conditions.

3:47:39And finally exploring raising fines

3:47:41that as a sufficient deterrent.

3:47:44However, research clearly shows that the certainty

3:47:47of being caught is a vast and more powerful deterrent

3:47:50and punishment.

3:47:51This is again where noise cameras can help.

3:47:55As our city grows and as we intensify development

3:47:58along busy corridors,

3:48:00as the numbers of cars, trucks and motorcycles

3:48:03on our roads increase and as they get bigger and louder,

3:48:06the problem of noise pollution and aggressive driving

3:48:09will only increase.

3:48:12To protect residents and ensure safe, respectful

3:48:15and pleasant city streets for everyone,

3:48:17I hope city council will agree to take action now

3:48:20and bring our noise bylaw forward for review this year

3:48:24and every year.

3:48:26Thank you so much for your time.

3:48:28Okay, thank you, Donna, for your delegation.

3:48:31I just want to look to members of council

3:48:33if there's any questions.

3:48:37Oh, Councillor Awerke.

3:48:39Thank you, Church.

3:48:40Through you to staff.

3:48:45Oh, sorry, not to the delegation.

3:48:46No, my apologies.

3:48:47Thank you very much.

3:48:49Okay, seeing that there's no questions,

3:48:51thank you for your delegation.

3:48:53We've also received your correspondence as well

3:48:55and we'll make sure that members of council

3:48:57give that a read.

3:48:59Besides that, hope you have a good day.

3:49:03Thank you, you can.

3:49:04Okay.

3:49:08Okay, seeing that there's no more delegations on this file,

3:49:13I will open it up to members of council

3:49:15for any questions or comments.

3:49:17Mayor Guthrie.

3:49:19Thanks, Chair.

3:49:20And I just only have this as a suggestion for flow,

3:49:23for us, we kind of have different topics.

3:49:27So maybe what we could do is I could immediately ask,

3:49:30it's been moved and seconded already,

3:49:33maybe I could immediately ask for them all to be separated

3:49:35and then Chair, if it's up to you obviously,

3:49:37but maybe we could just stick on one topic,

3:49:40take the vote, go to the next topic, take the vote.

3:49:42And then that way we just kind of go with the flow on that,

3:49:46if that's all right with you.

3:49:48Yeah, I actually would prefer that.

3:49:49So we can be a little more focused.

3:49:51So we have four items here.

3:49:52So if we can get that separated,

3:49:54I think that would be appreciated.

3:49:57I can look to clerics for that.

3:50:01Councillor Orr.

3:50:05Thank you, Councillor Chew.

3:50:06So just while we're splitting that out,

3:50:07the first one is about staff reporting back

3:50:10on bylaw reviews recommended to be removed

3:50:12from the work plan to free up resources.

3:50:14I just have a question for staff.

3:50:15Two questions actually through you, Chair Chew.

3:50:18How do we prioritize our bylaw reviews, right?

3:50:22So when people call and they say,

3:50:25oh, can I have traffic calming on my street?

3:50:28We have hard data and thresholds and we have a sense,

3:50:32is it a problem affecting thousands of people,

3:50:36a couple of people?

3:50:37And until we have really a better 311 system, I think,

3:50:42we don't have that fine degree of detail.

3:50:45So I can't tell from these motions

3:50:50whether these are priorities or not.

3:50:52And I'd like to understand how we prioritize

3:50:54and what these would displace.

3:51:00Through the chair to Councillor Orr-Rourke,

3:51:03a number of these reviews have either been directed

3:51:05by council through past meetings

3:51:08or have been identified staff as being needed

3:51:12to be amended as administrative in nature.

3:51:15For example, the business licensing bylaw

3:51:18was in effect since 2009.

3:51:20There's been changes in technology

3:51:23and ability to do some of the work

3:51:26and that bylaw needs to be updated.

3:51:28So it's on that list.

3:51:29So the way that we prioritize it is

3:51:31we try to find out the most effective means

3:51:34as to move it forward.

3:51:36And we always are working on one bylaw

3:51:38that is usually longer in nature and one that is shorter.

3:51:42For example, short term rentals,

3:51:45which was directed by council to do.

3:51:47That was a longer review that we conducted.

3:51:50At the same time, we conducted a smaller one.

3:51:53So it's prioritized based on what council's asked for

3:51:58and some of the efficiencies that can be created.

3:52:04Through you, Chair Chew, to Mr. Godfrey.

3:52:08So some, I'm guessing are directed by council.

3:52:11Others are things that just have been badly out of date

3:52:15or something has shifted.

3:52:16But when a recommendation comes from council,

3:52:19do we have a mechanism to quantify

3:52:21just how, why would these proposals leapfrog others?

3:52:28Is what I'm trying to understand.

3:52:29Maybe there's 10,000 people who are concerned.

3:52:32I'm just trying to understand how do we,

3:52:35as a board of governors, decide on priorities

3:52:39in the absence of that data and do you have that data?

3:52:43Through the chair to council,

3:52:44I'll work usually when there's a direction for council

3:52:47to look at a bylaw or look at a topic

3:52:50we often report on the number of calls

3:52:52that we received, some past history, you know, and that.

3:52:57So that's how the decision is made.

3:53:00All volumes and other information.

3:53:03Thank you.

3:53:04And then through you, Chair Chew, two more.

3:53:07One is we just approved a strat plan.

3:53:11And I'm wondering how these align

3:53:12with the top level priorities of the strat plan

3:53:16and how you align your work to move the strat plan forward.

3:53:22Through you, Chair to council,

3:53:24I'll work city building deals with a lot of safe

3:53:29and vibrant community and these bylaw reviews reflect

3:53:33into that and we prioritize that work plans based on that.

3:53:38And last question I have just on them generally,

3:53:43councillor Goller, the motions are very specific

3:53:46and sort of directive.

3:53:47They're not sort of, can we explore smokeless recreation?

3:53:50It says allow it.

3:53:52Number four says ban the use of sale and fireworks.

3:53:57Are you providing direction to staff

3:53:58on what the outcome of their research should be?

3:54:01Because I can't support that without really information

3:54:05on whether that's the best solution.

3:54:08Before councillor Goller speaks,

3:54:10I just want to clarify as well that in the motion

3:54:13that says report back.

3:54:15So I think there is that intention there.

3:54:18If councillor Goller would like to speak to that too.

3:54:21Thank you and through you, Chair to councillor O'Rourke.

3:54:24So the first thing that I'm looking to do today

3:54:27is get a sense from council

3:54:29if we want to actually direct staff to look at these.

3:54:33I think depending on the bylaw,

3:54:37I would just want it to make it clear what the issues are

3:54:40that my constituents are bringing forward.

3:54:43And all of these are to be brought back in October

3:54:48of this year as part of the multi-year budget.

3:54:51And at that time, we would actually be given direction

3:54:53for those bylaws to be actioned.

3:54:56So we have a runway of how long would it take,

3:54:59a runway between now and October

3:55:01for staff to tell us how long it would take

3:55:03and whether there is room in their work plan to look at these

3:55:08and what would need to come off for them to do it.

3:55:11I think between now and then we can work around the wording,

3:55:17whether it is to allow some fireworks,

3:55:20but not allow others.

3:55:22My intention was to get this on the floor,

3:55:25be clear about what it is that the world was looking,

3:55:29but I am not necessarily tied to the particular wording.

3:55:33At this point, I would like to check with my council colleagues

3:55:37to see if there's an appetite to even direct staff

3:55:40to look at these things.

3:55:42I brought them forward because they are concerned

3:55:44that my constituents have been asking me

3:55:45to work on, so I know that there are concerns

3:55:48that many members of our community feel strongly about.

3:55:52But to your point, I'm not tied to the particular wording.

3:55:56And that's something that between now, perhaps,

3:55:58and the end of the month, we can have a conversation

3:56:00and then modify these as need be.

3:56:04So through Chair Chew to Councillor Goller,

3:56:08I'm actually wondering, because we do want to deal

3:56:11with this stuff in committee,

3:56:13whether you would consider modifying the language

3:56:16because those three, so the one is explore.

3:56:21Number two talks about can you explore

3:56:23vehicle noise cameras and Guelph.

3:56:25That's fine.

3:56:26The other one says allow the contained smokeless

3:56:27recreational wood burning fires.

3:56:29And the other one says ban the use and sale of fireworks.

3:56:32So to me, those are not saying to staff,

3:56:35can you go and take a look?

3:56:37And then we have a public engagement.

3:56:38It's outlining what the outcome will be

3:56:42without any consultation, without any sort of...

3:56:45So for me, those two are much too directive.

3:56:47And for me, I need to answer clause one,

3:56:52because we've had people who are operating a tow truck

3:56:54in front of somebody's house as a business

3:56:56and we have no bylaw to address that.

3:56:58We've got cameras that are pointing in neighbors' homes.

3:57:01So we all have complaints from constituents

3:57:05about different things.

3:57:07So personally, I need number one in order to know

3:57:12what could be displaced to do those.

3:57:14And I'm not sure we also have a fulsome list

3:57:16of what some other potential bylaws might be.

3:57:18So I'm a bit of a loss,

3:57:20but I'm just wondering if you would consider

3:57:22modifying the language so that

3:57:25it's not a foregone conclusion in the motion.

3:57:27Absolutely.

3:57:28Do you have any suggestions, councillor?

3:57:31Or what would make you feel comfortable

3:57:33with these motions?

3:57:38Yeah, I mean, I think it's...

3:57:39Sorry, chair two.

3:57:41So I think it's something along the lines of,

3:57:44that staff review the backyard fire bylaw.

3:57:51I don't even know what the words are,

3:57:54to explore the use of contained

3:57:57smokeless recreational wood burning fires.

3:57:59Right?

3:58:00And that actually could be done pretty quickly in a meeting.

3:58:02If the fire chief says, yeah, that's great.

3:58:04And we can just add this one clause.

3:58:06So I don't know what the scope of them are.

3:58:08And similarly, you could say that staff report,

3:58:11staff report back on proposed timelines

3:58:14in order to explore the bylaw surrounding

3:58:17use and sale of fireworks.

3:58:20I don't even know that we're allowed to ban

3:58:22the sale of fireworks because it's a legal product

3:58:25in the city.

3:58:26So I don't know what I don't know about this at this point.

3:58:32Okay.

3:58:33I'm just gonna go to Mayor Guthrie

3:58:35and then councillor Allt.

3:58:36We can continue this discussion,

3:58:38but I do think we should kind of separate

3:58:40the discussion one item by one item.

3:58:42I don't think the first clause

3:58:44should be that controversial.

3:58:45So I also get staff to speak to this,

3:58:48but how about Mayor Guthrie go first

3:58:50and then councillor Allt.

3:58:53Thanks chair and through you.

3:58:56So my question, my question is going to be

3:59:00a little bit of a repeat,

3:59:01but just a little bit firmer than my colleague

3:59:03to my right here.

3:59:05I don't mind first of all reviewing the three

3:59:10that you proposed.

3:59:10Okay.

3:59:11So just to be on,

3:59:12but there could be five things or 10 things

3:59:16or 11 things or only even one,

3:59:19but I need you to tell me and council

3:59:24what's happening with number one

3:59:27because everything flow,

3:59:29everything is dependent on number one.

3:59:32If you come back and say that we're not removing anything

3:59:35from the work plan

3:59:36or we don't suggest that we remove anything

3:59:38from the work plan,

3:59:39then it's a mute point,

3:59:41whether we have one thing or 10 things or three things.

3:59:44That's where I'm just a little bit held up.

3:59:47So what I'm trying to understand is like,

3:59:50can you answer number one now?

3:59:55Can you answer that one for us now?

3:59:56Like what would you suggest that we remove

3:59:58from the work plan for you to fill in these other three?

4:00:03Through you chair and America three,

4:00:05there are some items on here

4:00:07that we can talk about.

4:00:09And there's some items that we could possibly bring back

4:00:13and say back in October,

4:00:14these are why we believe they should come off the list

4:00:17and give you the reasons why.

4:00:19For example, I'll pull in exotic dancers.

4:00:23That was an issue years and years ago,

4:00:26councils directed staff to defer the licensing.

4:00:34I know what that means.

4:00:36All right, thank you.

4:00:38So in other words,

4:00:39another words not holding you to it through you chair,

4:00:43there is some moveability here on the list,

4:00:49on your work plan to potentially fit in some of the things

4:00:52that council are always bringing forward.

4:00:54And you would identify that when you come back.

4:00:57Through the chair of the council,

4:00:58to make her go through that is correct.

4:00:59All right, perfect.

4:01:00That's good.

4:01:01That settles that part.

4:01:02Okay, that's great.

4:01:03Okay, so then I would suggest then to you chair that,

4:01:09yeah, I mean, I'm ready to call the vote on number one.

4:01:12I mean, if now that we got that settled in my view,

4:01:16everything goes from there,

4:01:17then we can attack number two and three and four from there.

4:01:20Councillor, all did you want to speak to that at all?

4:01:22Or are you?

4:01:23No, I think that my colleagues have probably expressed

4:01:26my concerns.

4:01:27The key to me is that there should be no foregone

4:01:30conclusions on any of these.

4:01:32And the issue of work plan and what is practical are my issues.

4:01:38Okay, and those on screen, you guys are good as well?

4:01:42Okay, perfect.

4:01:43Let's call the vote on number one,

4:01:45that staff report back by October 2023

4:01:48on any bylaw reviews that are recommended

4:01:51to be removed from the work plan

4:01:52in order to free up resources.

4:01:55And let's change things up and be a little fun here.

4:01:58All those approve, raise your hand.

4:02:04All right, perfect.

4:02:06Number one's passed.

4:02:08Now let's go on to number two

4:02:10and have some discussion on that.

4:02:13You gotta change things up, right?

4:02:15We've been here for a couple hours now, right?

4:02:18All right, so let's have a discussion on number two,

4:02:21that staff report back by October 2023

4:02:23on the proposed timelines for changes to the work plan

4:02:26in order to add in an update to noise bylaw

4:02:29to explore the use of vehicle noise cameras in Guelph.

4:02:33So, okay, Councillor Allt.

4:02:36Thank you very much.

4:02:37I'll speak to this because it did come before

4:02:40Mayor Guthrie and me and the Police Services Board.

4:02:44And we had a, I think a very effective debate on this

4:02:49as to whether this was properly in front of police

4:02:51or whether this should be considered to be

4:02:53a function of the city and bylaw.

4:02:56Noise is clearly a problem for some people

4:03:00in some neighborhoods within the community.

4:03:02The issue here that I think I think I'm speaking

4:03:05similarly to Mayor Guthrie is,

4:03:07is this through bylaw,

4:03:10through establishing a budget for noise cameras

4:03:13and the potential to enforce this something

4:03:16that the city should consider.

4:03:19So, I'm glad that Councillor Goller brought it here.

4:03:22But again, for me, it's review, explore,

4:03:25and also as part of the exploration

4:03:27to determine what kind of a budget do we need

4:03:29and how practical is this?

4:03:33Thank you.

4:03:34I'll just point out as well,

4:03:35like I like the language that says explore.

4:03:39So we're very clear to staff on what the intention is.

4:03:42In my opinion, if we have had exotic dancers

4:03:45on the list for many years now,

4:03:47I don't see how this went to be an issue as well.

4:03:51However, we just need to be conscious

4:03:53of the time constraints as well

4:03:55that we're dictating to staff as well.

4:03:57So if there's some latitude as well to staff,

4:04:01then this shouldn't be that big of a problem in my opinion.

4:04:05But I'll let my colleague Councillor O'Rourke

4:04:07who has some comments speak.

4:04:11Thank you.

4:04:12Through you, Councillor Chew to staff,

4:04:13just because we've had two comments

4:04:14about the exotic dancers, through you to staff,

4:04:18is the reason we want to look at that

4:04:20because it's a factor in sex trafficking.

4:04:25Through you, Chair, to Councillor O'Rourke,

4:04:28it was a request years and years ago by Council

4:04:31to look at that in a couple of years

4:04:33that has been deferred by Council as well.

4:04:35So I think the information is we put it forward,

4:04:40provide all the facts as to why it was on the list

4:04:42to begin with, if there's been any changes

4:04:45and Council can make the decision.

4:04:48So through you, Chair Chew,

4:04:50before we remove that from the list,

4:04:53will you be able to tell us whether that's still

4:04:55a consideration in terms of sex trafficking?

4:04:57Cause like it's kind of funny, but it's really not.

4:05:00Through you, Chair, to Councillor O'Rourke,

4:05:02as part of the review is when we report back

4:05:04in October 23rd, or October 2023,

4:05:07we would give all the reviews that are on the list,

4:05:10why they were there and if staff feel

4:05:14that they still need to be reviewed

4:05:16and the reasons why or why not.

4:05:18Thank you.

4:05:19And through you, Chair Chew, question to Mr. Godfrey.

4:05:25Are there other things in your opinion

4:05:27that need to be added to the noise by-law?

4:05:29I'm thinking of refrigerated trucks running all night

4:05:32and those types of things.

4:05:33So is the motion too restrictive

4:05:36in terms of only looking at vehicle noise cameras?

4:05:40Do you want a broader motion to allow you to include

4:05:44other things that perhaps are also happening

4:05:47at the same time?

4:05:49Through you, the Chair, to Councillor O'Rourke,

4:05:51as you can see in the report,

4:05:52there is a request for staff to review

4:05:54the noise by-law now for to reevaluate the map.

4:05:59That's attached to it where other and non-use are.

4:06:01So staff would rather have more general.

4:06:07Then Chair Chew, I would propose an amendment

4:06:11that I actually don't have,

4:06:12I have an email with an old version,

4:06:14but I don't have the new version.

4:06:15Do I have the new version of the motion?

4:06:18Just before we go to the possible amendment,

4:06:21I just want to clarify to our general manager.

4:06:24So you are currently looking at noise complaints overall

4:06:29as it stands, correct?

4:06:33To you, Mr. Chair, the noise by-law review

4:06:37with respect to mapping is scheduled for 2025.

4:06:41Okay, do you have a seconder for your amendment,

4:06:44Councillor O'Rourke?

4:06:46Sorry, Chair Chew, I'm just typing it out now, actually.

4:06:50Okay, I'll go Councillor Goller to add a comment.

4:06:55Thank you, and through you, Chair Chew.

4:06:57And Councillor O'Rourke, I did just send the email

4:06:59with the updated wording.

4:07:02I just wanted to add that this motion

4:07:06is responding to new technology

4:07:09that has been available recently,

4:07:11which is much like a radar camera

4:07:15or a stop red light camera.

4:07:17There are now vehicle noise cameras

4:07:21that have been used by many jurisdictions,

4:07:25by a few jurisdictions in the world,

4:07:26like the city of Paris, New York, Edmonton,

4:07:32to track the loudness of vehicles.

4:07:35So we do have other technology to be able to look at

4:07:40the noise of say an air conditioner unit

4:07:43or the noise caused by a car that is on a driveway.

4:07:47But this is the first time that we would be talking about

4:07:51something that is tracking

4:07:52the loudness of vehicles on the road.

4:07:54And this is primarily a concern for my constituents

4:07:58who live on the main roads, like Victoria Road, Aramosa,

4:08:02those roads that are hilly and cars

4:08:06are often going by quite loudly.

4:08:10Just that is my comment.

4:08:11And that is why this is particularly prescriptive.

4:08:15So as staff said,

4:08:17they're already looking at the noise control by-law.

4:08:19This we just make sure that when they do that,

4:08:21they're also looking at how

4:08:25road vehicle cameras could be used

4:08:29or could not be used in the city of Guelph.

4:08:32Okay, I'm just gonna go to our CAO's, Stuart.

4:08:35Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:08:37Just to maybe perhaps help, hopefully help.

4:08:40I think what, if you did two, three, four,

4:08:44and then we did one, what staff are going to review

4:08:46is in October, we will report back.

4:08:49Number two will take us 170 hours, $2 million,

4:08:55and then a temporary thing becomes a permanent thing,

4:08:57and it's a capital budget of 500,000.

4:09:01Making that big leap of faith

4:09:02that just because it was done on Alberta,

4:09:04it can actually be done in Ontario.

4:09:06We might get to that very conclusion.

4:09:08It's not legitimate in Ontario.

4:09:10Why would we have to spend any time on that?

4:09:12And then I think what Mr. Godfrey or GM Godfrey will do,

4:09:16he then has got to then try to equate the existing by-laws

4:09:20that are on our books to be reviewed.

4:09:22Our bandwidth is we cannot do everything all of the time.

4:09:26So if it takes 170 hours, what has to come out?

4:09:29And I think, Councillor O'Rourke,

4:09:31that's what you're getting at,

4:09:32and Mayor Godfrey, with your questions.

4:09:35What would come out?

4:09:36And is it just an exchange of hours?

4:09:38Which clearly it's not,

4:09:39because these things were put in place

4:09:40for some purpose at some point.

4:09:42And that has to be clear.

4:09:44So I think we've got to bring this back to you

4:09:46on all of these in that explore kind of way,

4:09:49but only explore to tell you, can we proceed?

4:09:52We can't answer tonight,

4:09:54as that technology actually has it made its way

4:09:56from France and the States to here.

4:09:58It feels like it has, and two big cities,

4:10:01like in Canada, I think, in this particular one.

4:10:04Edmonton in Toronto,

4:10:05is there something specific in the Toronto Act

4:10:07that's allowed it to take place in Ontario?

4:10:09I don't know, but that would have to be part

4:10:11of the discussion in October.

4:10:13So I think you can't solve everything that's in here tonight

4:10:16because we're not exactly sure what's really been asked.

4:10:20We have to go away and explore and bring that back to you.

4:10:23But with a view that if this comes back to you,

4:10:26you've got to then vote on it at some point to say,

4:10:28yay or nay, and if you say nay, fair enough.

4:10:31But if you say yay, it'll be attached to,

4:10:33but something has to come out.

4:10:35These things were priorities of previous councils.

4:10:38So it might not be a priority today,

4:10:41but we're gonna have to try to answer that for you as well.

4:10:43So I think this will be a complicated discussion in October,

4:10:47let alone this evening.

4:10:48If this evening is really about just guiding us a little bit,

4:10:52great, but you can't get to,

4:10:54I'm with the councillor Hark here.

4:10:57There isn't a fire chief around us

4:10:59that's really gonna jump in and say,

4:11:00let's get into some of this backyard burning

4:11:03without some detail on it.

4:11:04Others do it, but there's a lot of detail on why others do it,

4:11:08and guff might not replicate why others do it.

4:11:11So all I'm trying to say is you might force your way

4:11:13through this this evening,

4:11:14if the words explore are in there,

4:11:16with a realisation you are gonna have to dig deep

4:11:19and dig into this when it comes back in October.

4:11:22Tonight might be the night to spend a number of hours on it.

4:11:25It might just be if you're interested, yes.

4:11:27If you're not, say that now.

4:11:28There's no point in having staff go away and chase this

4:11:31if you really aren't interested.

4:11:33And that's difficult for you to answer

4:11:35because we haven't got answers for you.

4:11:37So you're all stuck in that sort of cat 22,

4:11:39but I think tonight is, all right, go away,

4:11:42but realise what we're coming back with.

4:11:45We do not have enough staff that's in bylaw,

4:11:47let alone traffic and all the other places.

4:11:50You know, that camera piece might be interesting,

4:11:53but we will hire more traffic staff

4:11:55to do the work behind the scenes on a permanent basis.

4:11:58Perhaps when you see the bill,

4:11:59you might not be for the number of complaints

4:12:02that are attached to it.

4:12:03So I'm just, I'm trying to help

4:12:05so that you're not into this for about two hours this evening.

4:12:08You might get there a little sooner

4:12:10with that general generalities that I put on the table,

4:12:14if that's helpful.

4:12:14If not, continue on if I've just muddied the waters.

4:12:18Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:12:19Yeah, just some quick comments.

4:12:22Is it possible that Councillor Goller,

4:12:24you explore October 2023 and maybe perhaps remove that?

4:12:31Yes.

4:12:32Through you, Chair Chew,

4:12:33this was based on the recommendation from staff

4:12:35to put in that timeline so that we make this decision

4:12:38and lock and step with the multi-year budget.

4:12:41So if there is an ask on bylaw says,

4:12:43we can do this, we need two more bylaw review officers,

4:12:47and then they would add that to the budget.

4:12:48So then if we push this off, then it throws the budget off.

4:12:53Okay, Councillor Allt.

4:12:55I think it's important for us to put this forward right now.

4:12:57There are citizens who have spoken quite passionately

4:13:03about this particular issue.

4:13:05And I think that CAO Stewart has outlined

4:13:09what the challenges might be quite well.

4:13:12I think we owe it to the community to come back

4:13:16with something to say whether this is something

4:13:19that is reasonable or something

4:13:20that is just beyond our capacity.

4:13:23And I hope it doesn't take 170 hours,

4:13:26but if it does, it might be 170 well spent

4:13:29so the community understands where we're coming from.

4:13:32I just have a couple of questions

4:13:34my colleagues who ever wants to jump in.

4:13:37Would you guys be okay if hypothetically

4:13:41we had some of this information tied into an information report

4:13:44instead of it coming back to council on October 2023?

4:13:49Because there's still a heavy research component to this

4:13:52that would take some staff capacity, right?

4:13:55So Councillor Goller.

4:13:57Through you chair.

4:13:58So for clarity, we're not asking

4:14:00that the bylaws actually be developed by October.

4:14:03We're just asking how many staff hours will it take?

4:14:06And then in October, we can make a decision

4:14:08if we actually want to invest that staff resources

4:14:12to develop these.

4:14:13So that is the exploration.

4:14:15So this is the pre-work for us to know

4:14:18how much work it would be to develop each of these bylaws.

4:14:21And at this point, if say there is no appetite

4:14:25to address the issue of loud vehicles,

4:14:28council votes it down

4:14:29and then we're not asking staff to do any work.

4:14:31But I personally feel strongly that

4:14:35I've heard from enough constituents

4:14:36that live on main roads

4:14:37that this is a significant issue for them

4:14:39that we should at least look and see

4:14:42what it would take to put these laws in the box.

4:14:45Okay. Does our CAO have any final remarks

4:14:49before I go to the amendment?

4:14:51So through you, Mr. Chair.

4:14:52I mean, information reports are a way to bring things to you

4:14:55but I would suggest that we're gonna look for direction

4:14:58from you as a board in October.

4:15:01We cannot just go ahead and start work

4:15:03and take things off without your permission.

4:15:06These are in here for a reason.

4:15:08And so if the existence schedule that staff gave to you,

4:15:11that has to be amended to put something new in

4:15:14or on top of it, yes, hire two more staff.

4:15:18You know, I've sort of seen a bit of a draft

4:15:21on this budget that's coming.

4:15:23You know, maybe you'll be interested in two more staff here

4:15:25but maybe you'll be interested in staff

4:15:28in other areas like housing priorities and things like that.

4:15:30So you've got some decisions coming.

4:15:33So I wouldn't make them tonight

4:15:35but make the assumption we can report back

4:15:37and we need your blessing on direction.

4:15:39So we need to get that in front of you

4:15:41so that you can say yay or nay as a board of governors.

4:15:45And it probably seems to me it should come back

4:15:48as a report to you directly

4:15:49because that's going to be the easiest way

4:15:50for Mr. Godfrey and others to put some detail to this.

4:15:55And you're gonna have, look at the questions you have tonight.

4:15:58Imagine when we give you all kinds of details.

4:16:01It feels like it'll be a long evening in October

4:16:03for you on this and I think you need it

4:16:05in front of you at a committee

4:16:06so that you can spend the time on it if you so desire.

4:16:10But we need to hear from you directly, do you want to?

4:16:13And if you don't, that's easy.

4:16:15If you don't now, again, I'll repeat that.

4:16:16Don't direct us to go do this research.

4:16:19But if you want some research

4:16:20so you can make the determination in October,

4:16:22that's what we're committing to Mr. Chairman tonight.

4:16:26And then we have to bring it back to you

4:16:27with your eyes wide open on a decision.

4:16:30Okay, let's go to Councillor Work with the amendment.

4:16:32Do you have a seconder?

4:16:36Mayor Guthrie says he'll second.

4:16:38Okay, motion's on the floor.

4:16:43Claire, do you want to put this on screen as well?

4:16:45And we said we're reading them.

4:16:49Sorry, I don't have a strike through function

4:16:50on my computer for some reason.

4:16:53So the new motion is that staff report back

4:16:55by October, 2023 on potential timelines

4:16:59for changes to the work plan in order to explore

4:17:01and update the noise by-law,

4:17:03including potential inclusion

4:17:05of the use of vehicle noise cameras and Guelph

4:17:07and other issues related to the noise by-law.

4:17:10Councillor, sorry, Mayor Guthrie's seconded.

4:17:16All right, does anyone have any comments on this?

4:17:22I do want to make a quick comment.

4:17:24For me, and I think a lot of us here,

4:17:27we get complaints about noise all the time.

4:17:30And I think there's an opportunity here

4:17:32to kind of address the tenor of how we're going

4:17:35about this exploration.

4:17:36And I'm not too sure personally

4:17:38that the noise cameras is the only avenue

4:17:42in which we can approach this issue.

4:17:44However, to some of my colleagues' points,

4:17:49it is an option that is worth exploring,

4:17:52but to our CAO's point,

4:17:54we also need to be focused as well

4:17:57in how we commit staff hours to research and development.

4:18:01So I think I'm happy to support

4:18:05what Councillor Orwork has put forward.

4:18:08And I guess if there's no comment,

4:18:10I guess we can just call a vote on this.

4:18:13Any opposed?

4:18:17Okay, this motion is carried.

4:18:22Then, sorry, the amendment is carried.

4:18:26And I guess we can call a vote now

4:18:29if we can on the actual motion here.

4:18:33As amended.

4:18:36There's so many nuances to this, eh?

4:18:38All right, any opposed?

4:18:43Not okay, that's carried.

4:18:45Perfect.

4:18:47So, okay, let's go to number three now.

4:18:50And we'll have clerks put that on the screen again,

4:18:54and I'll just read it out.

4:18:56That staff report back by October 2023

4:18:58on the proposed timelines for changes to the work plan

4:19:01in order to add in the creation of a bylaw

4:19:04that allows contained smokeless recreational wood

4:19:07burning fires.

4:19:09Councillor Goller, do you want to speak to this as well?

4:19:13Thank you and through you, Chair Orwork.

4:19:14Based on feedback from, Chair, sorry, sorry.

4:19:18I was through you, Chair Chew.

4:19:20Based on the comments from Councillor Orwork about this,

4:19:25I was wondering if Council would feel better

4:19:28if instead of using the word of add,

4:19:31we changed that for explore.

4:19:33If that would make us so that we explore the creation

4:19:38of these bylaws rather than the prescriptive add,

4:19:41it's still clear on what the goal is,

4:19:44but it makes it more flexible.

4:19:47And okay, so.

4:19:49Councillor Orwork, do you have any comments to that?

4:19:53Nope, because Councillor Goller just amended his own motion

4:19:56and Marigot three just seconded.

4:19:58I have a question.

4:19:59Okay, Councillor Orwork.

4:20:02Through you, Chair Chew, to your public services,

4:20:05your public services tonight.

4:20:07Okay, Mr. Godfrey, do we know what the chief of,

4:20:10what the fire chief's position is on this?

4:20:12Does the fire chief already have an established position?

4:20:17Through you, Chair, to Councillor Orwork.

4:20:19I had not spoken to him about this matter.

4:20:21Obviously he's new and when he arrives,

4:20:24it'll be part of the conversation we have

4:20:26and report back in October, 2023.

4:20:29Okay.

4:20:31Does this also need to be broader?

4:20:36Through you, Chair, to Councillor Orwork,

4:20:38if you wish to, it can be just broader

4:20:41and outside burning, including smokeless fires.

4:20:44Back outside burning.

4:20:46Councillor Goller, would you consider that?

4:20:48Okay.

4:20:50Do I need to type that out?

4:20:53So Mr. Godfrey, could you repeat that please?

4:20:56It allows, contains smokeless recreation,

4:20:59wood burning fires and outside burning.

4:21:04Through you, Chair, to Councillor Orwork,

4:21:05outside burning in general, I guess.

4:21:07Just outside burning.

4:21:08Okay, coming up, thanks.

4:21:10Okay.

4:21:11Mayor Guthrie followed by Councillor Allt.

4:21:15Yes, through you, Chair.

4:21:16I just have a question.

4:21:17What's, I don't understand what is,

4:21:19what is outside burning?

4:21:22I just, we keep adding and adding and adding

4:21:25and it just, I'm getting confused.

4:21:28So through the chair to the mayor and again,

4:21:31we're trying to do this live with you as well.

4:21:33So this table is a bit of an issue for me here

4:21:36with the GM Godfrey.

4:21:39We've just gone through issues with wildfires

4:21:41and smokes in this part of the province.

4:21:42I can't imagine that a fire chief is going to come in,

4:21:45let alone an existing CEO and tell you,

4:21:47that makes a lot of sense,

4:21:48put more smoke into the air.

4:21:50We've got some environmental policies as well.

4:21:53So it's more than just a fire issue.

4:21:56It's connected to, because a lot of the rural communities

4:21:59have a fire permit that allows you to burn

4:22:02in the rural areas, just because it's significant.

4:22:05It's usually about 150 meters away from any structures.

4:22:08So again, think about who we are,

4:22:10not who we were, but who we are.

4:22:12Do we have that kind of ability to do open burn permits?

4:22:17Other municipalities do it just because of the rural nature

4:22:19of the other municipalities.

4:22:21So if you expand it, I can't,

4:22:23I just think that it opens the door to a lot more work

4:22:27that you're likely going to see no on.

4:22:29The smokeless piece sort of felt like

4:22:31maybe that's something that's possible.

4:22:34And I'll look to Doug if he wants to add anything else,

4:22:36but wood burn and permits are usually in the rural communities

4:22:40or they're in an urban setting

4:22:42that's got a large urban or rural component to it.

4:22:47We don't seem to have that here.

4:22:48So to expand it, I'm not sure that's good wise

4:22:51of sort of your directional time to us.

4:22:56So through you, Chair, is that the answer

4:23:02to where my confusion was?

4:23:03Because I thought we were walking in today

4:23:05to talk about some backyard little fires.

4:23:08But then I heard an outdoor burning.

4:23:10I'm like, well, what does that mean?

4:23:12Is that where you were going?

4:23:14I was confused.

4:23:15Mr. Chair, the councillor, as to Mayor Guthrie,

4:23:17whenever my small, not backyard burning as bush

4:23:24and everything like that,

4:23:25like we're talking about this outside burning.

4:23:28However, the smokeless fires still may produce

4:23:34flame, may still produce that.

4:23:38And that's why I was saying open it up.

4:23:39It wasn't intended to say we want to open up water,

4:23:42just saying that smokeless fire may still generate heat

4:23:46and safety risks that we need to explore.

4:23:51Okay, so clip for clarity then through you, Chair.

4:23:55I need to know whether or not your line of questioning

4:23:58and where you're going with councillor Oror

4:23:59is required to have you satisfied to go away.

4:24:03Do you need that extra verbiage of and outdoor burning

4:24:07added to this motion for review?

4:24:09Or were you comfortable with just the little tiny backyard,

4:24:13little smokeless things that might be okay?

4:24:15Through you, Chair, the councillor Guthrie

4:24:17don't need the addition.

4:24:18Okay, all right, thank you.

4:24:20I'm sorry, everybody.

4:24:20I just really needed that.

4:24:21Mayor Guthrie.

4:24:22Yeah, I don't care, whatever.

4:24:23Yeah, I assume that was kind of implied there.

4:24:26Okay, so, sorry if I cut the floor one more time then.

4:24:29I only have one more question.

4:24:32I'm absolutely willing to explore this

4:24:34because I've actually wanted to explore this

4:24:36for about 10, 12 years that have been here.

4:24:39But every single time I have brought this forward to staff,

4:24:44it has always come down to what does the chief say?

4:24:49And so I just wanna be on the record right now.

4:24:52If the fire chief, if our new one between now and October

4:24:56comes and says no, then I'm sorry, like that's the expert.

4:25:01That's our chief.

4:25:03And I'm gonna rely on that advice from the chief,

4:25:06especially fires and all that kind of stuff

4:25:08that's going on, even though I may wanna do it.

4:25:10Even though I may wanna do it,

4:25:11I'm gonna rely on the experts of the chief.

4:25:13So I would really request that,

4:25:14although I'm gonna vote for this

4:25:16because I think the review is a good idea,

4:25:18if between now and October,

4:25:22the chief says there's no way we're ever gonna do this,

4:25:26how does council feel about you just telling us

4:25:30prior to October, could you do an information report?

4:25:33Like I just don't know why we'd have to wait for October

4:25:35if in three weeks the new chief just says,

4:25:37I'm not even gonna go there.

4:25:39So through the chair to the mayor,

4:25:42you might get that in a lot of these instances.

4:25:44So, Mayor Guthrie, I completely agree with you.

4:25:48If our new chief arrives and just said, what is this?

4:25:51We can't do that, we shouldn't do that, there it is.

4:25:54If our transportation staff arrive and say,

4:25:57that product's not available in Ontario,

4:25:59you might get that from us too.

4:26:00So you might get some instant answers

4:26:02because you're asking us to explore it.

4:26:04We won't wait till October, if the answer's no,

4:26:07the answer's no and then we don't have to worry

4:26:09about the things that we have to take out.

4:26:11So you'll get a fairly strong no from us

4:26:13and then you'll have decisions to make at that point.

4:26:16Do you really want to create a liability issue

4:26:19around if the fire chief is telling you,

4:26:21and I think you're in a sensible place to say,

4:26:23let's listen to the experts,

4:26:25whether it's a fire chief or one of our professional

4:26:27engineers on the transportation side as well.

4:26:29Okay, and I just want to be very clear through you, chair.

4:26:32Like I actually do, I would love to see these reviewed.

4:26:35I honestly, I very much would like to see these reviewed.

4:26:38And so I just want to make sure that we're not,

4:26:41you know, stepping in something here

4:26:43that's going to be ending up worse.

4:26:45So I appreciate that those answers,

4:26:47I'll turn it back to you, chair.

4:26:51Yeah, just a quick comment.

4:26:52I think just to provide some context and clarity

4:26:55for the intent of this motion here.

4:26:59If you just go on Amazon or if you go on Google

4:27:02and search up smokeless recreational wood burning fires,

4:27:05most of these products are quite well contained.

4:27:08And I think there's a balancing act

4:27:10that we have to play here on council.

4:27:12Yes, we've had forest fires.

4:27:14Yes, we've seen what's happened out West,

4:27:16but at the same time we've seen our neighbors

4:27:18in Kitchener as well apply some creative measures

4:27:22in order to allow such a product to be available.

4:27:25I think there's a lot of safety

4:27:29that we have to look into.

4:27:30And I think our staff is always going to err

4:27:33on the side of caution always.

4:27:36But I think if we were just to explore this,

4:27:39it would show the community,

4:27:40hey, we're actually being a little creative here

4:27:43and we're not being too prescriptive

4:27:44just because wood burning fires in general

4:27:48are harmful to the environment.

4:27:51I'll also let my colleague, Councillor Goller,

4:27:54just say a few words that followed by Councillor Kloss

4:27:56and if you still have any comments.

4:27:59Okay, everyone has comments now.

4:28:00So we'll do the two first.

4:28:03Thank you, three, two.

4:28:05I would ask my councillor colleagues to support this.

4:28:09My main concern is that backyard fires happen in Guelph.

4:28:12They happen legally and they happen in any way

4:28:15that those residents put them on

4:28:18because there's no proper guidelines.

4:28:20You go to the city website and it says it's just not allowed.

4:28:22So many people just do it

4:28:24and they may not be doing it in a safe way.

4:28:26By having strict regulations saying you can do this

4:28:29that you're going to do anyways,

4:28:30but it has to be within these particular containers,

4:28:34this particular way to prevent the fire from expanding.

4:28:37I think it's safer for a community.

4:28:39I look at this as a harm reduction approach

4:28:42to allowing something that the community is doing.

4:28:46Thank you.

4:28:47Councillor Klosson.

4:28:48Yeah, I'll keep it very brief.

4:28:49And I think I echo everything that my colleague,

4:28:53Councillor Goller said,

4:28:54folks are already doing it

4:28:55and many constituents of mine have asked about it.

4:28:58So I think exploring it is great.

4:29:01And I mean, again, structure is everything,

4:29:03rule following great.

4:29:05And I think it's also important for the community

4:29:07to hear that we hear you, we see you,

4:29:10but let's be cautious.

4:29:14Councillor Allt.

4:29:15Thank you very much.

4:29:17Mayor Guthrie said a number of the things

4:29:19that I was going to say.

4:29:20The issue is exploring

4:29:22I struggled with smokeless and backyard fires as well.

4:29:26I thought that those are loaded terms,

4:29:28but true confession, I had a backyard fire last night.

4:29:33It was for my dinner.

4:29:34It was my charcoal that I lit for my barbecue.

4:29:38I also sometimes have a propane fire

4:29:41and I'm going to loan my propane fire pit

4:29:44to another Councillor

4:29:45so that Councillor can have a legal backyard fire.

4:29:49I think one of the things that we need to recognize

4:29:51is there are nuances in fires

4:29:54and I believe that will come back.

4:29:56The issue of exploring is very, very important.

4:30:00By the way, I should have invited you over for dinner last night.

4:30:02It was delicious, but I'll also tell you

4:30:05that while the air quality was bad,

4:30:07that charcoal barbecue did not get lit once

4:30:10because that's a huge issue for us right now.

4:30:13And we need to be aware that as we are exploring this,

4:30:16there are many residents in Ontario

4:30:18who don't even want to hear the words backyard fire.

4:30:25Councillor O'Rourke.

4:30:27Thanks, Church.

4:30:28I am trying to stay at the direction exploration level

4:30:34because the rules around what the Ontario Fire Code allows

4:30:39are on our website, which you can have a propane fuel

4:30:42or natural gas fuel appliance

4:30:43that simulate a campfire fireplace.

4:30:46The only thing I would remind council of

4:30:49is the lots are getting smaller and smaller

4:30:51as we increase the density

4:30:53and our bylaw always applies citywide.

4:30:55We don't have area specific bylaws.

4:30:59So we're gonna have a situation again

4:31:00where if you've got a great big backyard,

4:31:02which right now is happening,

4:31:03got a great big backyard and it doesn't bother the neighbors,

4:31:06there's no problem at all.

4:31:08But if you suddenly say we're gonna allow it across the city,

4:31:11you're gonna have people in townhomes

4:31:13having a campfire back there, which could be problematic.

4:31:17So that's my concern.

4:31:18There is a bit of an equity piece around this.

4:31:20It's the same question around,

4:31:22can you park your RV in your driveway?

4:31:25Well, if you have a huge double car garage

4:31:27and you've got a 60 foot frontage

4:31:29and you've got a huge setback, it doesn't bother anybody.

4:31:32You have a six foot driveway

4:31:34and you put a big RV in there, it bothers people.

4:31:37So we're regulating for the whole city

4:31:40and we need to be thinking about what it means

4:31:43as the lots get smaller and more dense

4:31:47and whether that risk increases.

4:31:49Because right now the people who are doing it,

4:31:51it's by complaint and it's really only,

4:31:56if somebody is concerned, they will call

4:31:58and there's different options.

4:31:59So I just wanna remind us that we are regulating

4:32:03for the whole city, it's not the couple of people

4:32:04who do it and it's not a problem.

4:32:08I just wanna ask staff as well.

4:32:09I mean, part of these considerations as well

4:32:12will be accounted for in the review

4:32:15if this is the direction that we provide, correct?

4:32:18So you Mr. Chair and again, I'll look to, yeah, I'm Godfrey.

4:32:23Look, respectfully, it'll be more than a Google search.

4:32:27You will get advice from us.

4:32:29Are you in compliance with a multitude of codes

4:32:31and as Councillor O'Rourke is alluding to,

4:32:33you have got to put your hat on for the entire city.

4:32:36So could we do it?

4:32:38We're gonna go through all that,

4:32:40but when we get to know you shouldn't do it,

4:32:41you're gonna hear it's because

4:32:43and it won't be because we don't like the color of the shirt

4:32:46that you wear in tonight.

4:32:46It'll be because the fire code says you shouldn't do it

4:32:49within X-ammonimeters to other structures

4:32:52because there is rules here that we have to comply with.

4:32:57We'll bring that to you.

4:32:58And yes, we see stores that sell all kinds of things

4:33:00where you could put it in your backyard

4:33:03and we might actually question why they're actually

4:33:04allowed to be sold, but that's not us.

4:33:06That's another level of government.

4:33:08But we have rules for a reason

4:33:10and it's usually not to annoy.

4:33:12And then I would just caution council

4:33:14as you get into this discussion tonight,

4:33:15just be aware of statements that you might make

4:33:18if you are now breaking some of these bylaws,

4:33:20just be aware of that so that you don't walk

4:33:22into some other issues yourselves

4:33:24with now we're aware of something.

4:33:26So again, it's reactionary these bylaws,

4:33:28but I think tonight keep that conversation up here.

4:33:31You want us to explore it

4:33:33and know that you'll get the best professional advice.

4:33:36You're not just gonna get us looking something up

4:33:37and telling you, it'll be fact based and data based.

4:33:41And then you connect it to what councillor just did.

4:33:44What are the lots you're approving

4:33:47and are any of them likely to be in compliance with it?

4:33:49And if not, then no.

4:33:51And I think we'll get to that in October.

4:33:53And I think that's where you're trying.

4:33:54I think that's why you're all trying to get us,

4:33:56but I looked at councillor Aurek,

4:33:57she's starting to keep us to that higher level

4:34:01versus you cannot solve it tonight

4:34:02because you don't have all the facts.

4:34:06Okay, councillor Aurek, did you have a possible amendment

4:34:09to this that you wanted to bring forward?

4:34:12I have sent one that's possible amendment,

4:34:15but honestly, it's not up to me to be revising the amendments.

4:34:21So I'm trying to keep us moving along, truly, right?

4:34:24Like, truly.

4:34:28So Mr. Godfrey, does this work?

4:34:31Like we, the other thing is we already have a bylaw, right?

4:34:35For fire, Mr. Godfrey?

4:34:40Through you, chair to councillor Aurek

4:34:43or outside burn, there's regulations,

4:34:49there's multiple regulations.

4:34:50I don't want to answer at this point in time,

4:34:52but for recreational fires to be permitted,

4:34:56there needs to be a bylaw,

4:34:58but this is something that we would take away.

4:35:00There's fire code and everything else that we would explore

4:35:03and provide information on,

4:35:04but the motion appears to be good.

4:35:08And just a quick comment.

4:35:11Is it possible just behind the scenes and for information?

4:35:16We can look at some other municipal comparators

4:35:19within the region just to see what they're doing.

4:35:22So it could just be potential lessons learned or...

4:35:29So maybe, so councillor Chew, we will do all of that.

4:35:32When, if you tell us to go away and do it,

4:35:34that's a given that that takes place.

4:35:36So we won't just pretend we exist in a vacuum

4:35:39like we do on all kinds,

4:35:40like we'll bring it to you to tell you,

4:35:42here's what happens in other places.

4:35:45That's a given.

4:35:46All you've got to do is direct us if you're interested.

4:35:48Say no, if you're not direct us, if you're interested,

4:35:51the big decisions come,

4:35:52and we won't get you to October

4:35:54where you get to not make a decision.

4:35:56We're going to spend a lot of time and energy on this.

4:36:00You've got to decide come October,

4:36:02well, now I have all the facts.

4:36:04We will not bring this to you without all the facts

4:36:06because we don't need another four months

4:36:07of going away to review more.

4:36:09We will bring you everything in our power

4:36:11to allow you to make decisions that evening on October.

4:36:15Thank you, CAO Stewart.

4:36:17Yeah, I think just for my own personal clarity

4:36:19and just to put it on the public form as well,

4:36:22it would be nice to have some comparators

4:36:25in that information that we're given.

4:36:28Okay, how about we move on from this?

4:36:30And when we vote on the amendment,

4:36:32if we can put that on the screen.

4:36:35Okay, we need a seconder, Councillor Goller.

4:36:40Okay, motion amendments on the floor.

4:36:44That staff report back by October 2023

4:36:46on the proposed timelines for changes to the work plan

4:36:48in order to review the outdoor recreational fire burning

4:36:52bylaw, including the potential use of smokeless

4:36:54recreational wood burning fires.

4:36:58Okay, I'm going to call the vote.

4:37:00Those opposed, Councillor Caton.

4:37:05Okay, that motion is carried.

4:37:09And back to the actual motion.

4:37:12If we put that on the screen, it's a lot of reading here.

4:37:25Yeah.

4:37:29Yeah, Councillor, or sorry, Chair Chew,

4:37:31just for Councillor Benefite,

4:37:32I mean, it's the motion that was shown on screen earlier,

4:37:35lest the bolded font now is sort of our way

4:37:37of delineating between an amendment.

4:37:39So committee can vote on that per your direction.

4:37:44Okay, I'm just going to call the vote for the motion as is.

4:37:48Do I have to read it?

4:37:50Okay, those opposed.

4:37:54Councillor Caton, okay, motion is carried.

4:37:58Okay, I think we're going to our last one now.

4:38:02That staff report back by October 2023

4:38:04on the proposed timelines for changes to the work plan

4:38:07in order to add to the creation of a bylaw ban,

4:38:10meaning the use of and sale of fireworks.

4:38:13Okay, anyone have, okay, Councillor Goller.

4:38:19Thank you, and through you, Chair Chew.

4:38:21This has come to me from constituents who suffer PTSD,

4:38:26and from constituents who have pets

4:38:28that are significantly affected by the loud noise

4:38:31of the banging of the gunpowder fireworks.

4:38:36Now we have different technology available

4:38:39that drones could be used to produce the light shows

4:38:43for Canada Day, for nears.

4:38:46So this would be requesting staff to explore a bylaw

4:38:51that prohibits the use and the sale

4:38:55of the explosive fireworks that we have.

4:38:58Currently, their sale is allowed

4:39:02on the week before and the week after,

4:39:05or the week before some special events,

4:39:07and we only allow fireworks to be used

4:39:09on three days a year, I believe.

4:39:12The challenges that they're being used for the week after,

4:39:16on and off during, in the community.

4:39:19So that is my intention here.

4:39:23And yeah.

4:39:25Okay, Councillor Allt.

4:39:27Yeah, thank you very much.

4:39:28And again, this is another one where as much

4:39:30as I love fireworks, I think that we have to face facts,

4:39:33that perhaps this is the time that has come.

4:39:35I recognize that it could be challenging

4:39:37for staff to ban this.

4:39:39And I think that truly the only way that this can happen

4:39:41is if the provincial government

4:39:42banned backyard fireworks across the province.

4:39:46On the other hand, I think we do need to consider

4:39:48many things such as, well,

4:39:52wealth amongst other places is becoming tender many times,

4:39:55much earlier in the year.

4:39:57We saw that, we went to Code Yellow for our water.

4:40:01Similarly, I will not hesitate to state

4:40:04that fireworks are far more powerful

4:40:06than they were when I was a kid.

4:40:08And our laws around fireworks changed substantially.

4:40:12When I was a kid, we used to be able to buy firecrackers

4:40:15that were larger than our fingers.

4:40:17As a few kids got their fingers blown off, we banned those.

4:40:20Maybe it's time for us to consider that as well.

4:40:25Okay, I'm just gonna go to Mayor Guthrie,

4:40:27then we'll go back to Councillor Gaulder.

4:40:30Thanks, Chair, and through you.

4:40:31So I just don't know.

4:40:33And I'm just gonna ask this question then.

4:40:35If you know the answer to staff, I'd love to know it.

4:40:38Are we allowed to ban the sale of fireworks in our cities?

4:40:42Through you, Chair, Councillor Guthrie

4:40:44is part of the review, we would research that.

4:40:46That's part of the review to come back in October.

4:40:48So you don't know that answer?

4:40:49You don't know the answer?

4:40:50Okay, that's fine, okay.

4:40:52So I guess I just have a question through to the mover,

4:40:59if you don't mind, through you, Chair.

4:41:05Are you steadfast in wanting to stay on banning, done?

4:41:10That's it.

4:41:11Because I think there may be some others

4:41:14that are okay with limiting or certain times of use.

4:41:21Like a good, a good, a good, a good fulsome review

4:41:24and engagement on the bylaw to allow some use

4:41:28under certain circumstances,

4:41:29or maybe there's a permitting process.

4:41:31I'm just making it up.

4:41:32But I just wanna know like how open you are,

4:41:35because if staff come back with a saying that we could ban,

4:41:41I mean, whatever, but that just means people in Guelph

4:41:45will just jump to Fergus and buy fireworks

4:41:47and come here or jump to Kitchener

4:41:49and come back here or jump to Cambridge

4:41:50and come back here.

4:41:51So it doesn't matter.

4:41:53So I guess I just wanna know what the appetite is

4:41:55of the mover on the intent, ban, done,

4:41:58or was it to have a fulsome review?

4:42:03Through you, Chair, currently the City of Caledon

4:42:06and the City of Brampton have banned the possession statement

4:42:09possession, sale and use of consumer fireworks.

4:42:12They did that last year.

4:42:13So it is possible.

4:42:16I don't know the details of how they did it

4:42:18or what hopes they had to jump through.

4:42:21And currently the City only allows it to be used

4:42:23on a couple of days.

4:42:25The problem is that people don't follow those restrictions.

4:42:29They're easily, relatively easily available.

4:42:32And the complaints that I get,

4:42:34some of them are about the big light shows

4:42:37for Canada Day, but most of the concerns,

4:42:40I would say 90% of the complaints that I'm getting

4:42:43is about the use of fireworks outside

4:42:46of those specific times and dates.

4:42:49So I think as part of the staff review,

4:42:52the intention is to have a ban.

4:42:55But if staff present options and they could say,

4:42:57you could ban it or you could restrict it,

4:42:59then I think that would be for Council to decide.

4:43:03Okay, thank you.

4:43:04Thank you, Chair.

4:43:05I think you're wanting to be steadfast

4:43:08in what's been presented and seconded.

4:43:10Okay.

4:43:12Yeah, I don't know.

4:43:13I might consider maybe an amendment to see

4:43:15if somebody else would consider seconding.

4:43:17I have no idea, but I wouldn't go to a full outright ban

4:43:21myself, but I certainly location more limited enforcement.

4:43:28I don't know, I feel like that's all worthy.

4:43:31But an outright ban,

4:43:32I just feels like sort of the fun police is coming up

4:43:38for you a little bit.

4:43:39So I'll leave it at that.

4:43:41Thank you, Chair.

4:43:44Councillor Orrick.

4:43:47Thanks, Chair Chew.

4:43:50Through you to staff, Mr. Godfrey,

4:43:52we already have restrictions on fireworks.

4:43:56And then you've got people following day,

4:43:59following week who are putting them off.

4:44:01Like in my mind, it makes no sense to bring in a bylaw

4:44:05that we can't enforce.

4:44:07So can you just give me an idea?

4:44:09How easy is it to enforce a ban on fireworks?

4:44:12Because once they get the call by the time you're there,

4:44:14they're probably gone.

4:44:16Through you, Chair, to Councillor Orrick.

4:44:18Currently we do have a fireworks ban in place

4:44:21that regulates the sale as well as the use.

4:44:26The purpose of the report coming back in October 23,

4:44:31in October would be to provide council direction

4:44:34on how long it would take to do.

4:44:36And part of the review would,

4:44:39part of if council says, yeah, go ahead

4:44:41and go do that review, part of the review

4:44:43would determine how enforcement would work

4:44:47in the effectiveness of that.

4:44:48That would be part of the review itself to report back.

4:44:51Okay, thank you.

4:44:52And so through Councillor Chew to you, Mr. Godfrey,

4:44:55I think you've just answered my second question.

4:44:58Because I want to be crystal clear.

4:45:00You're not coming back in October with,

4:45:03these are all considerations for these things, right?

4:45:06You're coming back to say, wow, this fireworks thing

4:45:08would require massive consultation

4:45:11with the Rotary Clubs and the cultural communities.

4:45:14And my neighborhood does a great big fireworks display

4:45:17that replaced a big fun fair that is a,

4:45:20you know, they have a permit,

4:45:23it's a pyrotechnics guy who's licensed, all that stuff.

4:45:27So you're gonna come back in October and say,

4:45:29we can look at this, but it's gonna displace

4:45:32on street parking or something else.

4:45:34That's correct, right?

4:45:35You're just coming back to say,

4:45:36it's gonna take this much time and this would move out.

4:45:40To chair to Councillor Roark, that is correct.

4:45:43The intent is back in, when we come back in October,

4:45:45we'll give you the list of items,

4:45:47how long it would take and what can be removed.

4:45:50Okay, thanks.

4:45:51I did want to pose a question if I may to my colleagues here.

4:45:56How, and I guess a GM Godfrey,

4:46:00if you wanna jump in as well, this would be appropriate.

4:46:04Like how feasible and is it possible as well

4:46:07for us to apply some kind of area specific provisions

4:46:11for fireworks to be allowed?

4:46:12Because there are cases in neighborhoods

4:46:15where fireworks are going off.

4:46:17We get the complaints, we can't really enforce it.

4:46:20Bylaws kind of useless.

4:46:22But if we apply some kind of expectation that,

4:46:25yes, you can go to certain locations around the city

4:46:29to have fireworks, then I think a standard would be set

4:46:34and that's something that we could possibly apply

4:46:37moving forward.

4:46:39I just opened this up to my colleagues

4:46:40and to GM Godfrey for a response.

4:46:45To you, Chair, as when we report back in October,

4:46:48we would give you the timeline of how long it would take us

4:46:52to conduct a full some fireworks review.

4:46:55Part of that review would be looking at the sale,

4:46:58the deployment and where it can be used on that.

4:47:01That would be part of the review.

4:47:04Okay, and I got Councillor Keaton.

4:47:09Thank you, it's for you, Chair.

4:47:12So there's more than just the consideration of noise, right?

4:47:15Like these are also a large amount of air pollution

4:47:19and they are part of our missions.

4:47:22So when we're looking to reduce community emissions,

4:47:25which is something that a lot of people

4:47:26have been asking us to do, this is one way to do it.

4:47:29Now, I'm sure last time that this was reviewed,

4:47:32there wasn't the availability of some of the new technologies

4:47:35that we have up there right now.

4:47:37Many, many cities have changed over to drone shows

4:47:40and this past Canada day, I was taking a bike ride

4:47:43with my daughter and there is kids setting off fireworks

4:47:46in the woods right near me.

4:47:48So I think that the availability of them in the city

4:47:52is a very large problem.

4:47:54So I would consider the full ban to be something

4:47:58that we are moving forward with.

4:47:59And it's not the fun police because there are alternatives.

4:48:02There's just less impactful on the environment,

4:48:05less impactful on people.

4:48:07And we need to kind of go with the times.

4:48:13Mayor Guthrie.

4:48:15Yes, I have an amendment, Chair,

4:48:16and I've sent it to the clerks.

4:48:18I don't know if I have a seconder,

4:48:19but I'd like to just amend a few of the wording in there,

4:48:23just to see if a committee would be on board.

4:48:27So maybe I'll just ask clerks to put up on the screen.

4:48:31I'm happy to read it out.

4:48:32And then just as it's coming up on screen,

4:48:44I'll read it now.

4:48:46That staff report back by October 2023

4:48:49on the proposed timelines for changes to the work plan

4:48:52in order to facilitate a full engagement process

4:48:56on the deployment, use, and sale of fireworks

4:48:59within the city of Guelph.

4:49:03Just for my own personal clarity,

4:49:05can you maybe define full engagement if you may?

4:49:09Sure.

4:49:10Well, I'll leave it to maybe Mr. Guthrie to say,

4:49:13but I remember at the beginning,

4:49:15they talked about efficiency of their work plan,

4:49:17how they have like a large and then a smaller one

4:49:19to accommodate their work plans as they move forward.

4:49:22I think in October, I would imagine that

4:49:24if this motion or this amendment were to pass,

4:49:27that then those details of what a full engagement would mean

4:49:30would come before us.

4:49:31And then that way, Mr. Guthrie can,

4:49:35and us at the same time,

4:49:36can understand what that would actually mean,

4:49:38cost-wise, timeline-wise, all that kind of stuff.

4:49:41But Mr. Guthrie, am I saying the right thing or not?

4:49:44Through you, Chair, to Mayor Guthrie,

4:49:46in the actual bylaw review,

4:49:49and for report, it shows the questions that staff ask

4:49:53every time we do a review in the public engagement

4:49:56that we undertake.

4:49:58So there's a framework for each bylaw review

4:50:04that we do.

4:50:05Okay, I'm comfortable with that.

4:50:07I'm seeing nods around the table as well.

4:50:11Yep, okay, this is seconded by Councillor Allt.

4:50:14Okay, yes.

4:50:17So through you, Mr. Chair,

4:50:18I like this WhatsApp on the screen.

4:50:19So let me say that, but I want to get clarity too.

4:50:22This isn't moving away from what I think

4:50:24the original intention was.

4:50:25The original intention had the word ban in it.

4:50:27You've removed it purposely.

4:50:29That opens it up for other options.

4:50:32You get the ban, it's just ban.

4:50:34This one has a little bit more flex,

4:50:37I suppose, than what we might bring back.

4:50:38So just for clarity, I just want to make sure

4:50:41if you were hoping for full out ban,

4:50:44this isn't directly to full out ban,

4:50:46which I still think is appropriate.

4:50:48This is a better one, I think,

4:50:49for your decision making later,

4:50:50because you are going to hear from some groups

4:50:53that are not going to be happy with consideration.

4:50:56So this at least gives you a bit of room

4:50:58to be able to have those discussions.

4:50:59So I just, Councillor Chew,

4:51:00I just want to make sure that's okay with everybody,

4:51:03because that's how we are seeing it here.

4:51:05You're not getting to the full stop of ban.

4:51:08It might get you there,

4:51:09because it brings you sort of choices on a menu,

4:51:12but earlier your only choice was ban.

4:51:15Right, okay, thank you.

4:51:19I'm going to ask Councillor Goller,

4:51:20did you have anything to add or you're okay?

4:51:23Through you, Chair Chew,

4:51:25just one question to Mr. Garfrey.

4:51:28As part of this direction,

4:51:30would one of the options that your team considers,

4:51:33would it be an outright ban

4:51:35on the sale of consumer fireworks,

4:51:37given the wording ended by council?

4:51:39I would understand that there would be other options,

4:51:41but just that one of them.

4:51:44I just wanted to make sure that.

4:51:47To you, Chair, to Councillor Goller,

4:51:50as part of our review,

4:51:51we would look at deregulation as well as Danny.

4:51:56You look at both sides.

4:51:59Okay, why don't we just call the vote?

4:52:01I think there's some consensus in the room

4:52:03on the direction of this.

4:52:04So, I can clerk's put this on the screen one more time.

4:52:14Okay, I'll just read it out.

4:52:15So it's crystal clear for everyone,

4:52:18that staff report back by October 2023

4:52:20on the proposed timelines for changes to the work plan

4:52:22in order to facilitate a full engagement process

4:52:26on the deployment, use, and sale of fireworks

4:52:29within the city of Guelph.

4:52:31All those opposed?

4:52:35Okay, motion is carried.

4:52:39Oh, and as amended, still getting used to this.

4:52:44Okay, now we're gonna vote on the actual motion.

4:52:46All those opposed?

4:52:50None, motion is carried.

4:52:52Okay, I think that concludes the bylaw review update.

4:52:59Now we're gonna move on to the e-scooter bylaw

4:53:02on under section 11.2.