Seasonal Patio Program as described in the Permanent Seasonal Patio Program report dated July 5…

1:35:57And we start with a presentation from Chris to walkie who is our acting.

1:36:02Oh, she's acting deputy chief administrative officer infrastructure development and enterprise services.

1:36:07And usually our GM of planning and building.

1:36:10Okay, and she'll be joined by Alex Jarowski, our manager of tourism and destination development. Go ahead and Krista.

1:36:18Thank you chair. Yes, I am definitely trying to fill some big shoes today.

1:36:23But I'm pleased to be here today to introduce the next item on the agenda and that's the seasonal patio program.

1:36:29When COVID hit, we appreciated council's approval of the temporary outdoor patio program to support local businesses that had to limit the number of people they could welcome inside their establishments.

1:36:41Businesses and people who live in and visit wealth would come to appreciate the program and seek out our patios even after those restrictions were lifted.

1:36:51In fact, 97% of those who participated in our most recent communities engagement survey expect the program to continue.

1:37:00Now, thanks to council's approval of the economic development and tourism destination strategy.

1:37:06We have your ongoing support to make wealth a must see visitor destination of choice and approving a permanent seasonal patio program and using the municipal accommodation tax to subsidize it will help us get to that goal.

1:37:20The city of wealth is among the 1st municipalities to come to council with a proposed permanent program.

1:37:27And we believe our program satisfies the expectations of our community of our businesses of the people who live, work, visit and play in our downtown.

1:37:38There are some key factors to consider of course with this program.

1:37:42Parking is an important issue for many people, especially in the downtown, yet our recommendations today aim to balance these expectations while still providing a program that animates our downtown.

1:37:54Downtown wealth is a charming diverse, exciting, historic, cultural, accessible and welcoming space.

1:38:04A permanent seasonal patio program will absolutely support and enhance our downtown.

1:38:11So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Alex Dorsky, the manager of tourism destination development.

1:38:18Thank you, Krista. All right, let's see.

1:38:25Perfect.

1:38:27So let's first take a look at the pilot seasonal patio program.

1:38:32So the seasonal patio pilot program was approved by council in 2021 after the first after first implementing the emergency temporary patio program in 2020.

1:38:42The economic development team brought forward options for the pilot program approved for three years between 2021 and 2023 as a pandemic recovery measure.

1:38:53Paddy's have been active annually between October or April 1st to October 31st, which is consistent with other municipalities that offered seasonal patios as a coven 19 relief measure for patios on public land in the downtown.

1:39:06The city lands encroachment by law was updated to permit permit this fact flexible use of public space, while the Ontario government allowed for a temporary use by law to be implemented for private property patio extensions.

1:39:20As temporary use by law is set to expire at the end of 2023.

1:39:24In 2020 full street closures were implemented during the temporary patio program, and the budget impacts for road closures were brought to council in 2021 that included options for special event only seasonal closures and weekend closures.

1:39:38These costs were presented to council with a $317,000 impact for seasonal road closures and 182,000 for weekend road closures.

1:39:47In 2021 council motioned and passed the weekend road closure option, but it was determined that for 2022 and 2023 the transit impacts and associated costs with seasonal or weekend closures would not be maintained and that the special event option would be implemented.

1:40:04The original startup costs for the program were funded through the tourism operational budget and supported by the safe restart fund, as well as the tourism recovery fund.

1:40:18Additional operational dollars required to implement and maintain the program each year were incorporated into the multi or budget process for 2022 and 2023.

1:40:27For all three years of the pilot program, the approved application and agreement fees were waived. However, in 2023, the council approved on street parking fee was implemented at $3 per square meter for the season.

1:40:42Where improvements could be made during the pilot program staff collaborated to address the main concerns around parking spaces that were taken offline due to patio activation in the downtown.

1:40:52The stop circling in park campaign was launched in 2022 and carries into 2023, which saw the conversion of the Mack Dennell Street lot from permitted parking to the on street model offering two hours for free.

1:41:05For the recommendations of the accessibility advisory committee, inspection staff received accessibility training and accessibility staff will be attending inspections and have attended inspections to ensure built requirements for patios are maintained through activation, which brings us to engagement.

1:41:22We are pleased to see that our external engagement survey, which included feedback from patio users received 900 and 907 responses through the have your say portal.

1:41:32We asked for feedback from patio operators, non patio operating businesses and patio patrons to gain a holistic view of the program and the ways that we can improve a permanent offering.

1:41:43We also consulted with the downtown golf business Association, the tourism advisory committee and the accessibility advisory committee for feedback on how we can better support businesses and patio users for more inclusive, activated and beautiful spaces.

1:41:57In addition to our external engagement opportunities. We also hosted a series of internal engagement options for the many city staff who support the seasonal patio program to provide feedback and recommendations for improvements.

1:42:09We also reached out to municipalities across Ontario to gain insight into their operations, as well as ways that they were developing a permanent program.

1:42:17So here are some of our takeaways from the community engagement survey we gained insight into the economic impacts from businesses that operated a seasonal patio and from those who did not.

1:42:3091% of businesses who operated a seasonal patio indicated positive revenue and employment opportunities and commented on the expanded customer base and enhanced visibility for their businesses during the program.

1:42:42For businesses without a patio 71% reported the program had a positive or no impact on their businesses employment opportunities.

1:42:51And when asked if survey respondents would like to see the program continue past 2023 91% of patio operators, 65% of non patio operators and 97% of patio patrons and users said yes or yes with modifications.

1:43:13We also saw consistent themes and comments around where folks identify the most value in the program and hope to see a permanent program in the future.

1:43:22For many the activation of public space gave our historic downtown a European atmosphere and ambience which contributed to a strong sense of community.

1:43:31Respondents also remarked on the added busyness to the downtown and the value this brought to businesses and the real and perceived vibrancy to residents and visitors.

1:43:40But of course improvements can always be made and feedback from our engagement activities mostly revolved around the themes that you see here.

1:43:55There is an expectation that the program not be provided to businesses for free with user fees that reflect program sustainability and cost recovery.

1:44:03This requires finding a balance with affordability for businesses to ensure that activation of public space still occurs and contributes to that community feel and vibrancy.

1:44:13The length of the program was seen as a strength but reduced usage during April and October indicated that adjusting the dates for a shorter season would see more people use the patios when they're installed and keep parking spots online during these reduced usage times, which brings us to parking.

1:44:30Improving parking options downtown during the seasonal patio program is probably the most frequent theme from businesses and patio users alike and we've worked with city staff throughout the piloted program to improve access and education on how and where to park.

1:44:44We also heard about beautification and activation businesses and community members suggest incentivizing and partnerships between the city and the businesses themselves to improve the quality of patios and encourage consistent usage and activity.

1:44:56And we also received recommendations around education that provides regular training and accessibility as resources for participating businesses to consider and implement.

1:45:06This brings us to the recommendations for the permanent program and the spirit in which they were developed.

1:45:18We are shifting the focus of the seasonal patio program from our pandemic recovery measure to a valuable destination development asset and economic opportunity that is led by the business community.

1:45:30We support their investments with investment of our own to ensure patron safety while remaining flexible in how the program can evolve as we look to the downtown infrastructure and renewal program and what it will mean for public space activation both during the work during the work and after.

1:45:45The recommendations brought forward are also in consideration of what it means to apply fair value to the use of public space as a commercial space.

1:45:53And the fees that we propose are meant to balance the needs and expectations of businesses downtown while we try and build in cost recovery for the city services required to facilitate the program.

1:46:04And we are also looking to improve the program for users through improve waste management plans accessibility education and resources for businesses as well as parking information and guidelines that can be shared with patrons.

1:46:17In this context we bring forward the following recommendations for the permanent seasonal patio program.

1:46:22The updated program dates reflect the usage rates of installed patios and better balance winter control and repair work with patio rollout and activation so that city staff can deliver better customer service to our community.

1:46:33The adjusted fees reflect the user fees by law and the annual user fee schedule while also applying a fair valuable fair value to the flexible and commercialize use of public space.

1:46:45Oops, maybe not.

1:46:52We recommend. Yeah, we recommend the removal of private property patios from the seasonal patio program as the building permitting process and the updated zoning by law can better support these application types.

1:47:03We are updating the design specifications of the patios and providing businesses with pre approved patio drawings that are in line with the Ontario building code and remove COVID-19 distancing requirements.

1:47:14And we have added mandatory waste management plans and accessibility inspections with expanded resources for businesses.

1:47:20Diving deeper into the program dates, we will open patio applications and renewals each year on February 1st while applications and renewals for existing businesses will close April 1st.

1:47:33This provides enough time for applications to be circulated and coordination among city staff for the programs rollout each season.

1:47:39The rollout would occur over the first weekend in May for barrier drop offs while installation and barrier filling will occur throughout the week.

1:47:46Then the closeout of the program would be the final weekend in September.

1:47:50One area to note is that is with the as with the 2021 to 2023 seasonal patio program.

1:47:56New businesses who open during the patio season will be able to put in an application up until August 15th.

1:48:03Application approvals are contingent on barrier availability availability each year and there is budget within the program for investment in new barriers in the case of damage or an influx of applications.

1:48:13The updated fees for the permanent program are proposed with a focus on cost recovery and attributing fair value to the use of public space as commercialized space.

1:48:30These fees will be reflected in the user fees bylaw and updated annually as approved in the multi-year budget process later this year.

1:48:37The seasonal patio application fee and an encroachment agreement fee have been adjusted from the 2021 to 2023 program to reflect legal and reality services fees that are currently present in the user fee bylaw.

1:48:50These will only be applied once at the start of the tenure encroachment agreement within applying business.

1:48:55The annual seasonal patio inspection fee will be incorporated into business licenses where able and will cover the costs associated with ensuring that patios reflect the building code and the submitted drawings.

1:49:06And the on street fee has been updated in consultation with parking services for from $3 per square meter to $10 per square meter per month charged annually to the patio operator.

1:49:17This number balances the average commercial rental price in Guelph with the temporary nature of a seasonal patio as added commercial space for participating businesses.

1:49:26To place these fees in context, let's consider a patio that uses 60 square meters of on street space, which is about the average of those currently installed as a part of the 2021 2023 program.

1:49:45As the application and agreement fees are charged only once every 10 years in alignment with the standard tenure encroachment agreement for public property, this patio operator would pay $3660 in year one and $3260 each following year in inspection and on street parking fees.

1:50:03Once approved during the application and renewal window, they will be invoiced and their fees processed, then their barriers will be allocated and dropped off on the first weekend in May for installation.

1:50:13Considering these fees and the cost of operating the program over the past three years, we have anticipated the financial impacts of the seasonal patio program to be brought forward during the multi-year budget process.

1:50:35Using the rate of participation from 2023, we anticipate that the $70,000 in user fees will be collected to offset the total program costs of $175,000.

1:50:45With a focus on bringing forward a program with no impact to the tax levy, we are recommending that $105,000 from the annual revenues of the municipal accommodation tax be used to fund the remaining budget needed for the seasonal patio program as a destination development and place making initiative.

1:51:02This concludes the presentation component of our report. Stacy Dunn again, and I would be happy to answer any questions you have around the recommendations we have brought forward for a permanent seasonal patio program.

1:51:14Thank you very much, Mr. Roski.

1:51:19If I can have somebody just put the motion on the floor and then we'll go to delegations. Okay.

1:51:24Okay.

1:51:25Mr.

1:51:26Councillor Klassen, I seconder.

1:51:29Mayor Guthrie. Okay, so the motions on the floor. I understand that we have Dario Dorenzo on the phone.

1:51:36Hi, Dario, can you hear us?

1:51:44Can you do star six in case you're muted? Okay. Actually, we're having some trouble lining up the folks on the phone. So if we can go to Richard Overland who's here in person.

1:52:05No need to star six, but if you want to come on down, we'd appreciate that.

1:52:20So welcome.

1:52:22And you have five minutes for your delegation.

1:52:24Thank you. Before I started with the patios, I was just like to say something to council and the staff sitting here this afternoon watching you guys discuss that strategic plan.

1:52:34We'd be happy to be from golf. Thank you guys. Great job staff council. I'm impressed.

1:52:41Now, what the party is.

1:52:44Thank you for your time today.

1:52:48I, most of you may know my own and the kitchen and bar. I'm one of the owners of any kitchen bar. Sorry.

1:52:54I've been there downtown golf here operating for 18 years.

1:52:58The patios came at a time when we were desperate.

1:53:02It has changed everything.

1:53:0818 years have been downtown.

1:53:11We didn't open during the day in the summertime, because you could let a cannon off down here all summer.

1:53:18Right. It was not worth it. We tried several times in our the first 15 years to open through the day and it just wasn't worth it.

1:53:26We actually didn't open until six o'clock.

1:53:29Saturday Sunday, because there was nobody here.

1:53:33pandemic comes. We have this emergency patio program.

1:53:38We are now open.

1:53:40Noon until 2am, seven days a week all year.

1:53:46The patios have increased the traffic flow so dramatically that it's actually worth it for me in December months after the patios close.

1:53:54There's still enough people coming downtown to make it worthwhile to be open during the day.

1:54:00At the spring, we had 28 staff members.

1:54:03Today I have 52.

1:54:0652 28 to 52.

1:54:10It is so beneficial, not just to me.

1:54:15It's beneficial to my neighbors.

1:54:18I love interacting with the guest.

1:54:21That's what I do best.

1:54:23I talked to everybody.

1:54:25I had no idea.

1:54:27Wolf was a mecca.

1:54:29A bridal supplies.

1:54:31Did you know this?

1:54:32They come from Western New York, Northern New York State. They come from Toronto. They come from London. They come from all over to go up because we have five.

1:54:41They have bridal salons here.

1:54:43They carry the top five designers.

1:54:46Not in that business.

1:54:48How do I know that?

1:54:50Because I engage with the guest that tell me.

1:54:53They came from these places.

1:54:55It has been harmony.

1:54:58I don't want to speak for my neighbors specifically because I'm not here for them.

1:55:02But they tell me.

1:55:04How good it is. How much more traffic it is.

1:55:07I'm a firm believer in downtown Guelph. I own my building. I own my restaurant.

1:55:12I spent the last 18 years of my life down here.

1:55:15I'm a firm believer that in order for me to do well, everybody around me has to do well.

1:55:22I recommend Eric the baker.

1:55:24I recommend Fleet Street Bakery, which is a newer place on Cork Street. If any of you haven't gone, please go.

1:55:30I'm going to talk to two young kids that are knocking it out of the park, working their butt off and doing some really great stuff.

1:55:37Unique, interesting stuff.

1:55:39For me, I need the guest to have two reasons to come downtown. Not just me.

1:55:44So when they come to my place and they have a nice time and I send them to Eric the baker or to If Footwear.

1:55:51And if you know it's a New York City style shoe store in downtown Guelph, we are blessed to have Joel and his store here.

1:56:00What happens is then when people are waiting to make debate or to do, they say, well, let's go to Guelph.

1:56:06And maybe the husband's thinking about a burger at my place and I'm thinking about shoes or vice versa.

1:56:12Right. And it gives people two reasons to come downtown or three reasons Eric the baker Fleet Street Bakery If Footwear.

1:56:19I see it every single day, every single day. I'm on the patio. I'm talking to people. I see people from Toronto, from Mississauga.

1:56:28I've seen people move from Toronto to Guelph in the first year. They came and looked at houses the second time they were here.

1:56:34I saw a couple of seniors couples that were friends from London and from Toronto and Guelph was the halfway point.

1:56:42Right. They made Guelph halfway point because we had a patio program.

1:56:46Do you know where those two couples live now? And the new tower downtown. Where are they regular customers at my place every single week.

1:56:54Every other week. I see them all the time.

1:56:56Right. And I can go on and on. It's just the number of people I've seen and the number of people I see every week.

1:57:04My business is over 20% new people. I had a couple or husband, mother and daughter.

1:57:10Last week, the mother has lived in the South End for 20 almost 20 years.

1:57:15Daughter was out of town. They were looking for a mother of the bride's dress.

1:57:19The daughter came to Guelph, went to one of the bridal salons and took the mother for the first time in almost 20 years to downtown Guelph.

1:57:27She had never been here. She lived in the South End 20 years.

1:57:30And the mother thought this is so beautiful. How did I not know it existed?

1:57:34And the daughter and annoyingly we said, now mother, I've been telling you for a long time.

1:57:38I hear this. Mr. Overland.

1:57:41Am I not on time? That's five minutes. Yes.

1:57:44One 30 seconds.

1:57:46I did a CBC radio show.

1:57:51Yesterday morning, I did one on the morning show today.

1:57:54I got a phone call just before I came here today from a gentleman named Blaze.

1:58:00From Buffalo, New York. He heard the radio show on CBC.

1:58:04They were here two weeks ago with his mother. They came to the butterfly museum.

1:58:08The butterfly museum said, you have to go downtown Guelph for lunch.

1:58:13But then they came, they saw the church, they went to the church.

1:58:16The priest took them out on the steps of the church and said, go downtown. It's wonderful.

1:58:20They tried to get into my place and couldn't.

1:58:23I will stop now though.

1:58:25No, I will stop now.

1:58:27Mr. Overland.

1:58:29Fun fact, I had my first date with my husband when it was black mustard.

1:58:32So we love your place.

1:58:34I appreciate learning about the bakery. Two words that, that make my heart sing our new bakery.

1:58:41Stay put. Do you have any questions? Councillor Goller.

1:58:44Thank you. And through you, chair or work.

1:58:47Mr. Overland, thank you for the, the support to, to, to the party program.

1:58:52Just wanted to clarify, were you here?

1:58:54We purely to say we should approve it or did you have any other requests or comments?

1:59:01Of course I want you to approve it. I think it's the best thing for downtown Guelph.

1:59:05One of my comments is about the new fees.

1:59:10We went from $3 a square meter annually to $10 a square meter.

1:59:16Monthly.

1:59:18I absolutely understand the city has to worry about cost and we have to be responsible.

1:59:23My concern is if we raise the, and I understand the inspection fees, I get it. Right.

1:59:28But if we raise the fees too high, too fast, we run the risk of losing some of the smaller operators.

1:59:36And I think the smaller operators like taste with Andy on Cork street, add a huge amount of the flare and the impact to our thing.

1:59:43Would the people at the butterfly conservatory, which is could have sent them to Cambridge or Kitchener would they have sent them to Guelph if we had half of our operators.

1:59:52And I don't want us to lose that impact.

1:59:54So please take under and I thank staff for doing their work because I think they've got a wonderful job.

2:00:01Please take into consideration if we lose some of the smaller operators, we could lose some of the impact and the butterfly conservatory and the ones like them will most say come to Guelph will say go to Kitchener.

2:00:13Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you.

2:00:17Okay, thank you. I'm just checking the screen there for questions. Thank you, Mr. Overland. Have a great day. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

2:00:24Okay, next up. We have Dario Dorenzo who is joining us over the phone. Mr. Dorenzo, can you hear me?

2:00:31Hey, we can't hear you. Oh, we can. Thank you. All right. Yeah. Welcome. You have five minutes. I'll start your time now.

2:00:44Yeah. So sorry about that in the beginning. I tried to unmute myself. I didn't know how to hit star six here and I didn't. I got caught up here. So sorry, my apologies.

2:00:54I just like to first off say thank you to city council city staff for having the patio program. It's been obviously very impactful for the downtown core.

2:01:08I'm going to just introduce myself as one of the owners of Frankenstein's and we do own the building as well and we are next door to Envy next to Rich and I don't want to take up a lot of the time.

2:01:23I just want to reiterate the points that Rich has made. It's been super impactful. It's changed the downtown scene. It's brought more people more foot traffic downtown, which has been impactful.

2:01:37Not just for the bars and restaurants, but all the merchants. And so it's brought a lot of life that we didn't have.

2:01:46Like I said, myself and my business partner have been downtown for a better part of over 20 years and we've seen a huge change.

2:01:55People that never frequented downtown are coming downtown and obviously we're getting, as Rich mentioned, people from out of town, which has been absolutely amazing for everyone.

2:02:08So thank you for helping us during a time of need. Obviously COVID was tough on everybody and we appreciate helping us out through the two or three years that was obviously very tough for all of us.

2:02:26The only concern I have is obviously, as Rich mentioned, is the cost. It is about a 1600% increase of what we've encouraged or how we've been occurring now.

2:02:42And that will obviously affect some of us. Myself, I don't see us moving forward if that's going to be the cost. Okay. If the cost was more reasonable, we would definitely consider keeping the patio going.

2:03:02So, you know, it's just a heavy cost to incur. And again, Rich mentioned, yes, there has to be some sort of cost moving forward for that, but the increase is really too great at once. That's all I have to say.

2:03:22I appreciate your delegation clocking in at two minutes and 39 seconds. So, Tite, I just want to see if there's any questions from council here for you.

2:03:31And seeing none. Thanks very much for your delegation. I hope you have a fantastic summer.

2:03:37Thanks for joining us.

2:03:38Thank you so much. And thank you for the opportunity. Appreciate it.

2:03:41Wonderful. Absolutely. Okay. Do we have Mr. Martindale?

2:03:46No, Chair O'Rourke. We attempted to reach Matt Martindale and Dino Serenity. I believe I'm pronouncing that correctly, but we were unable to reach them.

2:03:56So then council, it's back to us with questions for staff at this point and comments at the end. And I'll go to Mayor Guthrie first.

2:04:04Thank you so much and through you, Chair.

2:04:10Actually, no, I'm good. No questions. Thank you.

2:04:17Okay, Councillor Goller.

2:04:20Thank you through Chair O'Rourke to staff.

2:04:24The letters and the comments that I've received are overwhelmingly in support and they really appreciate that we are making this permanent.

2:04:32The question as was raised about the fees. Could you help me understand when we were setting the fee, did we do an assessment of how many of the businesses because would actually be able to have a patio next season, given the proposed fee?

2:04:50Is there a chance that we set this fee in the next year only 20% of the businesses apply for patios? So I just wanted to hear about that.

2:05:00Through you, Chair O'Rourke, the fee itself was not provided to businesses in consultation to determine the affordability at the time.

2:05:12The fee was developed with feedback from businesses through our community engagement survey, where there was the expectation from businesses who did not have a patio that folks who did operate a patio would be charged fair value for using public space as commercial space.

2:05:32So the fees were developed in consideration of the commercial, the average commercial value of a square meter in Guelph. And we then tried to strike a balance recognizing that they are not permanent structures.

2:05:47So the temporary nature of that, we did reduce the square meterage so it was not reflected or reflective of the actual commercial average, which was depending on the source between $17 and $20 per square meter on average.

2:06:05Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

2:06:10Thank you, Chair.

2:06:12Thank you, Councillor Goller. Councillor Caron and Councillor Buse-Till.

2:06:18Thank you. My question has to do and I know that Alex, you were able to get some stats for me, but I do want to put it on the public record because we did receive a letter from Theresa McKean, I think was the name.

2:06:33I'm expressing some concern about the lack of public space because what we are doing with this program is we are taking what is now public space and we are turning it into, you know, in effect rented private space.

2:06:47So can you talk about what other public amenities are available? How many benches where the public can grab some takeout, grab a coffee, they don't have to use a private patio.

2:07:04I think it's really important if we're truly trying to create what in the presentation you called a European feel toward downtown.

2:07:14In European cities, you can sit anywhere. You know, you can, there's small parquettes, there's lots of piazza space, there's lots of places where the public can use the public space without having to purchase a product from a specific

2:07:31bar or patio. Can you talk about the remaining public space?

2:07:39So the, sorry, through you, chair. The public space. So as some stats that came back, there are just under 50 public benches in the downtown area most populated by patios, as well as some table and chair space in Market Square and in St.

2:07:59George's Square. And then with downtown renewal efforts and the municipal accommodation tax, we are looking at ways that we can use municipal accommodation tax to invest more in public infrastructure as we contemplate these large infrastructure projects.

2:08:17Okay, thank you. And on the heels of that, I know we didn't do any research. There weren't any other municipalities that have any data we could use about whether seasonal private patios were open to the public and whether there was any kind of an

2:08:36incentive tools such as a discount on the square footage fee or a discount on the application fee for patio operators who made their space available to the public.

2:08:52In the absence of that, and I know it's not in the recommended plan, my question is, are we going to continue to monitor this program? Are we going to continue to refine it over time? Or once we've passed this recommendation, we're no longer collecting data.

2:09:09We're no longer collecting feedback. We're not doing satisfaction surveys on customers and downtown residents.

2:09:17I just want to know, is this the end? Is today's decision the end? Because I think if we, as we remove public space, especially during construction of Windham Street, I want to know whether we're going to still have an opportunity to collect feedback about the impact on the loss of public space.

2:09:44So we, oh, sorry, through you, we are looking at ways to expand our data collection to support the storytelling around this program and the impacts as it relates to the installation of the patios in the parking spaces.

2:10:04When it comes to the activation of public space in these renewal efforts, then I imagine that as we come to council with reports on those updates and how the program changes as a result of these investments in these programs, we will see updates on how the seasonal patio program is responding to these changes and those updates as a result.

2:10:29Okay, that's great because there are non-patio operators, retailers, other types of businesses, offices. I don't feel as though, I feel the need to continue to collect data on their behalf about the impact because if we have more seasonal patios, if this expands and we have, you know, 75% of a street where the impact is being felt, I'm glad to hear that we're still going to collect that data,

2:10:58still have that feedback, which leads to my final question. We're calling it permanent, but we all know nothing is ever permanent in the city of Guelph because we're going to be ripping up Windham Street.

2:11:09So, you know, I prefer not to use that language because it sets up an expectation that there will be patios everywhere all the time every year.

2:11:20There will be times when we are doing work where we're a business owner who may traditionally have had a patio cannot have a patio. Is that correct?

2:11:33Yes, that is correct.

2:11:35Okay, thanks.

2:11:37Okay, I'm going to go to Councillor Bucethel.

2:11:40Thank you very much and through you, Madam Chair. My first question, I believe Councillor Goller asked and my second question is very similar to Councillor Cairn.

2:11:50So, I'm an immigrant. I come from Italy and Malta. And so when we talk around this horseshoe about, you know, the European kind of way of doing things, my family had hotel and restaurants and bakeries and things like that.

2:12:05And there was a ground tax that we paid. We paid a ground tax when we went on to the public property. So, I have no problem with that because what I've also seen with relation to Councillor Cairn is that encroachment on to public space where if you go to an Italian beach, you're paying for a chair on the beach.

2:12:27Unless you want to sit on the rocks. But if you want to be on the beach, you pay for that kind of thing. So, I'm very sensitive to that, the public realm.

2:12:37And I, so I'd like to hear the staff's thinking on that balance of public and private interest in this consideration. And also a little bit more about this map tax because I am not feeling that there is a need to use something like that.

2:12:55So, I would prefer to use the map tax on things like public infrastructure, public and so on. So if the staff can just give me a little bit more information, that would be great. Thank you.

2:13:05Through you chair.

2:13:09So, the, I will start with the municipal accommodation tax question, perhaps.

2:13:16So, the, the program as proposed is being proposed as a place making and destination development activity, which is in line with the economic development and tourism strategic plan.

2:13:28That was approved last year, where those kinds of investments in place making way finding infrastructure enhancements were included as outcomes of implementing the municipal accommodation tax.

2:13:43And that's why that we have brought this program forward to reduce impact of the tax levy, but as well as a valuable destination development activity as well.

2:13:54When it comes to the, the balance of commercial space as public space and that and the pursuit of us trying to balance that we really are trying to, or we really were trying to develop a program with fees.

2:14:12That businesses could afford to pay so that we are offering a program that folks can choose to opt into so that we do see the downtown animated consistently while still acknowledging that, you know, public space does have value and the occupation of it for commercial purposes does need to be considered.

2:14:33Thank you, Madam Chair, I would also just like to jump in and add just maybe some clarity. When we're speaking about public space in the context of the patio program where we're speaking about on street, and most predominantly we're speaking about parking spaces.

2:14:52So the, the costs per square meter would not be applied to the patio space that space that is sitting on a sidewalk, it would only be applied to the on street space that they're utilizing Council.

2:15:09You still follow up through the chair just a supplemental. So what I'm hearing is that there is no value to the sidewalk space no quantitative value. Is that what I heard?

2:15:20We are not applying a commercial value to the sidewalk space in this instance we're applying it to the on the use of the on street space, which in some cases is a parking stall and other spaces because this is a citywide program is not a parking space but it's the on street space.

2:15:38So the other fees associated are attributed to their inspection and the encroachment fees, and those are attributed to the sidewalk spaces.

2:15:47Thank you and through you, Madam Chair, just my final question is, and I think Councillor Ciarán was asking this, will there be an evaluation of this because for me this is and again I come from, you know, the island of Malta where you go to the island and you cannot find a space to sit that is free.

2:16:05And so for me it's that that tension between public and private commercial. Will there be an evaluation of this?

2:16:13We will continue to evaluate how we can make investments as economic development in tourism to ensure that public space that is open to folks as we go through downtown renewal is still made available and I apologize, Chair O'Rourke, through you.

2:16:35Sorry, you said through me and I was waiting for something else. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to go to Councillor Klassen and then back to Marigot 3.

2:16:51Thank you, Madam Chair. Let me know if this question is on is in order. I do have a question about the barriers. Is this the appropriate moment?

2:17:03So why don't you ask the question and we'll see we know it's part of the program because they have to be paid for it and delivered etc. So go ahead.

2:17:10Sure. Thank you. So through you, Madam Chair to staff. I had a question about some of the barriers and and how that works in function to the build of the patios. Do they have to be integrated into the design or or other design options part of the of what's possible

2:17:31through you chair.

2:17:34First time.

2:17:37So the the barriers are there for traffic mitigation and safety. So we do require as a part of risk mitigation and I believe through traffic laws that where folks are seated has to be at least one meter from the roadway.

2:17:57These barriers also help in protecting folks from that. As we go through downtown renewal projects, we are working city staff is collaborating phenomenally well to try and explore options where the barriers may not be necessary.

2:18:13But at this time I can't comment on not using the barriers because the way our roads are currently implemented.

2:18:21We do want that safety protection.

2:18:25Great. Thank you. And one more if you'll permit me.

2:18:30I have a question with regard to the public space.

2:18:34When I was at FCM, I, when Mayor Catherine four years, she's the mayor of Longyue, she presented some of the things that they did in their downtown spaces, one of which was a public co-working space with, you know, you could go and you could work in that in that area is to have

2:18:50a public space. And we explored public options like this, you know, temporary structures that can be built that aren't for private use but could be invested in through things, you know, like our our mat tax and could provide public benefit and would be free to use for all residents.

2:19:12I do think that with a program that goes forward on a more permanent basis or a future program that we know about.

2:19:21It will allow staff to make investments where we could utilize the public space like the on street space to make investments of our own to complement what is also happening with business investment.

2:19:36Great. Thank you.

2:19:38Okay, I'll go to Mayor Guthrie. I didn't mean to say at the beginning of questions that everyone had to say private property patio permitting process and all of their questions. So, Mayor Guthrie, the challenges to you.

2:19:51Well, P squared.

2:19:55I thank you, chair.

2:19:59My only question is just to be to bring clarity. There's nothing about the program now that's speaking to close streets.

2:20:06Just for clarity that would be a requirement of like a third party or something to get a special events permit to do something like that. I just want to make sure that I'm understanding that right through you chair. Yes, the special events street closure process is the process we have been using.

2:20:23And patios are considered in the activation of street closures.

2:20:28Okay, great. Thank you.

2:20:30And then again through you chair.

2:20:32I was just wondering about this is kind of a fee question, but also a process question on how things will be implemented.

2:20:41I'm sure you and many others probably have been following along on the not so good implementation of Toronto patios over the last month.

2:20:52It's been a huge problem for them. Huge uproar for businesses that had basically zero problems throughout the pandemic and are now experiencing, you know, government issues in regards to trying to move forward on them now.

2:21:07So, I just wanted to say, I'll stick to that line of questioning on the process side.

2:21:14I can understand for a brand new patio where there may be some logistics involved in figuring everything out. But for those patios that are going to be consistently the exact same thing year over year.

2:21:31How, how are you going to be able to provide people with that that sort of accountability for a quick process on making sure those things are boom they're ready to go every year it's like it's the same thing every single year.

2:21:45Nothing's changed they got to sign off on it nothing's changed. They just want to build their patio. How are you guys addressing that.

2:21:53Thank you chair. Great question. So the dates that were presented in the presentation. So we have a two month window where applications and renewals are put forward.

2:22:07Just for clarity the tenure encroachment agreement that businesses would would sign into with the city for the encroachment on public lands. It's 10 years. So that that drawing is good for 10 years we.

2:22:21Oh, sorry.

2:22:22Okay, so once that is settled

2:22:28and we have the renewals,

2:22:30so the business lets us know that they are interested

2:22:33in setting up again for the year,

2:22:35we will work with city staff.

2:22:37And the reason we have proposed the dates that we have,

2:22:39which is that weekend installed that first weekend in May,

2:22:42is so that rollout is consistent.

2:22:44We can do it all together.

2:22:45Everyone gets their barriers as consistently as we can.

2:22:49And then they're able to set up, build that week,

2:22:52barriers get filled and the process moves forward.

2:22:57Yeah.

2:22:59Okay, great.

2:23:00So that would be great.

2:23:02I think, yeah, okay, that would be great.

2:23:05And I trust that staff will do it that way.

2:23:07So thank you.

2:23:09And then my final question, Chair,

2:23:11the other second part of that was about fees.

2:23:14I'm just trying to understand,

2:23:16where is this $260 inspection fee coming from?

2:23:25And I mean that very honestly,

2:23:27like why isn't it 270 or why isn't it 250?

2:23:31Like I'm just trying to understand,

2:23:32like how did this $260 amount come to be?

2:23:38Through you, Chair.

2:23:39So that fee covers the inspection staff

2:23:43and the for fire and our bylaw and security staff,

2:23:47both of which are rates that are included

2:23:49in the user fee bylaw combined,

2:23:51where it is my understanding that we could not otherwise

2:23:56incorporate it into the business license for that business.

2:24:00Okay, that makes sense.

2:24:02You explained that very well.

2:24:04All right, thank you so much, Chair.

2:24:07I see Councillor Billings has questions.

2:24:12In the report, this model includes to some degree,

2:24:15the cost recovery, which is supplemented

2:24:18by the tourist tax.

2:24:20So my question is, if, and I do mean if there are amendments

2:24:24to reduce the fees and Council decides not to take an increase

2:24:29from supplementing with the tourist tax

2:24:31and it hits say the operating budget,

2:24:36does that then become bonusing?

2:24:40Or then we not bonusing private businesses with tax dollars?

2:24:48Through you, Madam Chair,

2:24:49I actually don't know the answer to that question.

2:24:52I'd have to consult our legal colleagues to see

2:24:56where the implications around bonusing my land

2:24:58is on something like that,

2:24:59but happy to get back to Council as a whole with that answer.

2:25:02Yeah, that would be great,

2:25:03especially for the, before the end of the month.

2:25:06Thank you.

2:25:07Thanks, Councillor Billings.

2:25:08So I have some questions

2:25:09and then I know Councillor Goller has a motion.

2:25:11I also have a motion that Councillor Katelyn has agreed

2:25:14to put on the floor.

2:25:17I have a question probably from Ms. Baker.

2:25:20So we just approved our user fee policies,

2:25:23all of our financial policies we just approved.

2:25:26And I thought we were trying to make programs revenue neutral.

2:25:30So I thought our user fees were subsidized in certain cases,

2:25:35but not necessarily, right?

2:25:37So we will subsidize a kid going to the swimming pool.

2:25:41We will subsidize some things that would be really onerous,

2:25:44but we are going to take public land

2:25:47and then offer to subsidize a user fee

2:25:53for a commercial enterprise.

2:25:54So can I just hear from Finance

2:25:56how this aligns with our user fee policy?

2:26:03So to the chair,

2:26:06so our revenue budget and policy

2:26:07that we brought forward in March,

2:26:10set guidelines and considerations

2:26:14when departments or services look at their user fees.

2:26:20And there was a whole scale within that document

2:26:23in terms of considering the benefit

2:26:27of the service being provided.

2:26:29And so there was a scale

2:26:30and in terms of our best recommendation

2:26:34from a staff perspective, in this case,

2:26:3640% is being covered by user fees and 60% by the mat.

2:26:41And so really there was a shared,

2:26:45we looked at that benefit

2:26:46and who's benefiting from the value

2:26:48and felt that it was the appropriate

2:26:51or the best advice from staff

2:26:54for the funding of this program.

2:26:56And so I would say it's in alignment with the user,

2:27:00with the policy considering the benefit of that service.

2:27:07Thank you, Ms. Baker.

2:27:08So just further question on the use of the mat.

2:27:12My recollection when we approved

2:27:13the municipal accommodation tax,

2:27:15whether it would be used for things

2:27:17like wayfinding or really cool playground

2:27:20that was a tourist attraction,

2:27:21but something to be used by the general public, right?

2:27:25And not necessarily to subsidize an individual business.

2:27:29So I'm all for the patio program.

2:27:31I'm quite opposed to using the mat for it.

2:27:36I did ask staff what our expected mat revenues are

2:27:41for the city and the total is 820,000 annually,

2:27:45410,000 goes to the chamber for promotion,

2:27:48we keep $410,000.

2:27:51So can ask why we're gonna spend a quarter of the mat tax

2:27:55on the patio program on subsidizing private business?

2:28:00Through you, Madam Chair, but to you, Madam Chair.

2:28:06At the end of the day,

2:28:07we decided staff looked at the successful pilot program

2:28:13and the value that's it's created in our downtown

2:28:16and how it's truly become a destination driver

2:28:19and a visitor and a visitor and a tourism asset.

2:28:21And it's really the first one out of the gate

2:28:23and it's very, very successful.

2:28:26So ideally in the use of the mat tax,

2:28:29that allows us to create a sustainable program

2:28:33out of the gate now that could potentially go a long way

2:28:36to helping the businesses in our downtown core

2:28:39while they're still very much in recovery time.

2:28:42The other piece of that was to also again,

2:28:48address the fact that we are working with businesses

2:28:51who are getting the direct benefit to a program.

2:28:54And we thought it was a good balance between the use of mat

2:28:58and then applying the user fees that would

2:29:01and be seen as a partnership between businesses

2:29:03and the city in terms of the use

2:29:05of the municipal accommodation tax.

2:29:08There are plans to bring a draft,

2:29:10a high level draft budget around the plans

2:29:13for the municipal accommodation tax

2:29:15in partnership with our DMO partner to council

2:29:19as part of multi-year budget.

2:29:21And it will be able to provide more detail at that time

2:29:24around what those aspirations and plans are

2:29:26for the use of mat.

2:29:28But right now out of the gate,

2:29:29we see this as a really valuable destination development tool

2:29:32and a good way to use funds.

2:29:36Thank you.

2:29:37And Ms. Dunnigan, I would just ask you,

2:29:40would you like to clarify that it's not strictly

2:29:42for downtown patios, but actually anywhere in the city?

2:29:44Correct, yes, it is for all of Guelph.

2:29:46Thank you for that clarification, Madam Chair.

2:29:49So I have a question about parking.

2:29:51So a lot of the letters, a lot of concerns

2:29:53were regarding use of on-street parking spaces

2:29:57and removing those.

2:29:59Do we know what the utilization rates

2:30:00of the parkades were during the program?

2:30:02So I mean, is there still plenty of space in the parkades?

2:30:08Through you and to you, Madam Chair.

2:30:10So the rates of the parkades have remained

2:30:16relatively consistent at about 55 to 65% empty.

2:30:23Where we have seen, where parking services staff

2:30:26have noted an increase is in the MacDonell lot for parking.

2:30:30But that again, has been changed to the two hour

2:30:34on-street free model to support the loss of parking spaces

2:30:41in the downtown.

2:30:46So I just wanna be sure I've understood.

2:30:49So the city's gonna lose revenues

2:30:51on the MacDonell parking lot as well and subsidized.

2:30:55Is that what I'm hearing?

2:30:58Through you, to you, Madam Chair.

2:31:01Only to the end of 2023 as a pandemic recovery measure,

2:31:08not beyond.

2:31:09Okay, thanks.

2:31:11My other question is with the accessibility advisory committee.

2:31:14So they were advocating for fines.

2:31:16And I'm wondering if you've explored a model

2:31:19where after a certain number of warnings,

2:31:21there would be a fine, right?

2:31:23So under AODA, we need to be totally accessible

2:31:27in Ontario by 2025.

2:31:29Do we have a plan for that if there are sort of usual people

2:31:34who are consistently not accessible?

2:31:38Through you, to you, Madam Chair.

2:31:43Instead of implementing a fine

2:31:44because this is an encroachment agreement on city land,

2:31:47we do have the right to revoke that encroachment agreement

2:31:51if they are not in compliant with policies

2:31:53that implement the patios,

2:31:55including AODA, Compliancy and Accessibility.

2:31:59Great, okay.

2:32:00And my last question for you, Mr. Roski,

2:32:02as you said, it's a 10 year encroachment agreement,

2:32:07but we're going to be doing massive downtown infrastructure

2:32:10works.

2:32:11I was just in Kitchener, they're doing a beautiful job

2:32:13in their downtown with big, wide, dirt patios, right?

2:32:16Which would change the necessity perhaps to encroach.

2:32:18So how will this program, permanent program work

2:32:23through the downtown works?

2:32:26And then do we have an opportunity afterwards

2:32:28to revise how the whole plan works

2:32:31because the space will be quite different in say 10 years.

2:32:35Through you, to you, Madam Chair.

2:32:37Yes, so we will be working with businesses

2:32:42along impacted corridors during the downtown renewal work

2:32:45to identify where patios can still be set up

2:32:49and where they won't be able to

2:32:50as we rip up the streets and reinstall them.

2:32:53But we will be looking at ways that we can use

2:32:57flexible public space to activate

2:33:00in collaboration with our business community

2:33:03once the streets are put back together

2:33:05and ways that we can revitalize that.

2:33:08Okay, thanks very much.

2:33:10Any other questions from Council?

2:33:14I don't see any, I know Councillor Goller has a motion.

2:33:17Councillor Goller?

2:33:20Thank you, and through you, Chair O'Rourke,

2:33:24I would like to move a motion

2:33:25if I could ask the clerk still to pull it on.

2:33:27And as it comes on, I'm really hearing from the delegates

2:33:32and the folks that have written letters

2:33:35and my constituents who use the patios,

2:33:37they all support the improvement to the feel

2:33:41and the look of the downtown.

2:33:43My concern is that the sharp change will mean

2:33:47that the few businesses that are doing quite well

2:33:51with the patios will keep the patios,

2:33:53but we might lose maybe half of the patios.

2:33:56And so for that reason, I'm moving this motion,

2:34:00that the monthly fee per square meter

2:34:02will be faced in over the next three years

2:34:05with the understanding that the additional costs

2:34:08would be put on the municipal accommodation tax.

2:34:12And as I table this,

2:34:13I would just like to give a moment for staff

2:34:15to let us know if the funds

2:34:18for the municipal accommodation tax

2:34:20have been earmarked for something or if there's leeway,

2:34:23but I will wait for a second there before that happens.

2:34:29Okay, Mayor Goller, three seconds.

2:34:31Any questions?

2:34:35And questions?

2:34:37Yeah, the question I would like to ask staff first,

2:34:40give me an opportunity to comment

2:34:41and to ask if we were to face this in over a couple of years,

2:34:44has the municipal accommodation tax that other 75% of it,

2:34:48has that been earmarked or spoken for,

2:34:50or is there room for this to take place?

2:34:55Through you chair to Councillor Goller.

2:34:59So we look forward to coming to council later on this year

2:35:03with the multi-year budget,

2:35:05which includes the municipal accommodation tax

2:35:07and how it has been allocated.

2:35:10The economic development and tourism strategy

2:35:12does outline how we plan to use

2:35:14the municipal accommodation tax,

2:35:16and that includes through police making

2:35:19and wayfinding strategies, infrastructure investments,

2:35:23as well as programming and financial support

2:35:28for tourism product development,

2:35:31which we look forward to implementing.

2:35:35So to answer your question, succinctly, yes,

2:35:39we have allocated however, if council would like us

2:35:44to come back with what it would look like,

2:35:47we're happy to do that for the end of the month.

2:35:50Thank you very much for that.

2:35:52Councillor Alder has a point of order.

2:35:54Thank you very much. Just a quick point of order.

2:35:56I saw the resolution that Councillor Goller emailed,

2:36:00and then I saw the resolution on screen,

2:36:02and I'm just trying to figure out which is it

2:36:04that we are voting on.

2:36:05If we are voting on both parts,

2:36:06I would request that they be separated.

2:36:13For clarification, when I sent the email,

2:36:15it was the original motion from staff,

2:36:16and then I added my second motion.

2:36:19So perhaps Councillor.

2:36:21The amendment is only on the fee per square meter.

2:36:25Fazed in over three years.

2:36:27Could we therefore have the motion on screen?

2:36:29Second. There you go.

2:36:30So, okay, so the motion is on the floor.

2:36:33This is the only thing we're voting on right now.

2:36:35That's correct.

2:36:36Thank you very much.

2:36:38Speaking to the motion then.

2:36:41You have a question?

2:36:42Yes.

2:36:44Yes. Chair.

2:36:46So I can see where Councillor, thank you, through you.

2:36:48I can see where Councillor Allt's going here.

2:36:51This is kind of like a standalone motion.

2:36:54It's not really an amendment.

2:36:56So I think what Councillor Allt is going is to say,

2:36:59like, should we just at least call the vote

2:37:02on the main motion?

2:37:03And then if this is a separate one, then so be it.

2:37:06But if it's an amendment, we should have,

2:37:09I think that's where Councillor Allt's going.

2:37:11I'm just wondering.

2:37:12I'm not sure actually,

2:37:13because we're talking about the entire program,

2:37:15which talks about a bringing in the fees.

2:37:17So I'll actually allow.

2:37:19So you're going to stand as an amendment?

2:37:21As an amendment?

2:37:22Yes.

2:37:22I just wanted to clarify.

2:37:23The plan that is being discussed right now,

2:37:25doesn't talk about a phasing in.

2:37:27And so I'll let that motion stand.

2:37:30Councillor Allt, the email had both the original motion

2:37:36and this new motion.

2:37:37So actually, rather than explain things for you,

2:37:40could you would like to clarify your intent?

2:37:42Yes, my intent was to split it.

2:37:45It's kind of funny the way we're going about this now.

2:37:47My intent was to split it because I actually wasn't even

2:37:50certain that we had the original motion on the floor.

2:37:52And okay, so it's been moved in second.

2:37:54That's fine.

2:37:56My concern therefore about this is I do know

2:37:59there's another motion that is coming forward as well.

2:38:02And it strikes me that both this and the other motion

2:38:05should really be referred to staff,

2:38:07because at this point I'm not comfortable

2:38:09because I don't know what the implications of this might be.

2:38:13But at the end of the month,

2:38:14if these were to both go to staff,

2:38:16we could see the implications of those

2:38:19with a report back from staff.

2:38:22So that is a great question for staff

2:38:25and would perhaps affect the outcome of the vote

2:38:28or have the mover reframe his...

2:38:30Yes, I couldn't support it without knowing that.

2:38:33Okay, so that wasn't a question.

2:38:36It was still the point of order.

2:38:38So staff can't answer, but I will ask staff to respond,

2:38:41please, to whether it be helpful to wait till the end

2:38:44of the month to look at some different options,

2:38:48including a phase in.

2:38:50So through you, Madam Chair,

2:38:51can I get to you, Councillor Aalto, to repeat it?

2:38:54I was talking to our CFO about what is this on the screen.

2:38:57And so I'm not sure we completely heard the question.

2:39:00So if you just repeat the question,

2:39:02we were probably talking about the same thing,

2:39:03but just that will help us just jump right in

2:39:06with an answer here.

2:39:08Thank you very much, CAO Stuart.

2:39:12What is this thing called love?

2:39:14I think that we're probably on the same page on this.

2:39:17I wasn't clear at that point.

2:39:19And so consequently, I couldn't support the motion.

2:39:21It strikes me that it's an amendment,

2:39:23which is requiring a phase in over three years

2:39:26from what I've heard.

2:39:28So if you can answer that, or if someone can answer that.

2:39:33So through you, Madam Chair, I'll start here.

2:39:35And I think the clarity for me, because I'm a bit,

2:39:38I want to be simple on this as well.

2:39:39I think on page nine of your report, the big dollars,

2:39:43the 170, let me go there,

2:39:46so I'm actually working from it as well.

2:39:48That's the important stuff for I,

2:39:49and that's what Ms. Baker and I were talking about.

2:39:51The program costs 175,000.

2:39:54The motion says phase in,

2:39:55but I'm not sure where you're starting from of that amount.

2:39:59And then I'm not sure what you anticipate it to be each year.

2:40:02And maybe it's just divide 70,000 by three.

2:40:06And then it should actually stipulate

2:40:09that you would like it to come from Matt,

2:40:12because the only choices on that list are its user fees,

2:40:15it's Matt, or it's the taxpayers of Guelph.

2:40:18So I think clarity is also helpful

2:40:20so that this doesn't get lost.

2:40:22And I'm not saying you weren't trying to get clarity,

2:40:24I'm just want us to all get there.

2:40:27And maybe we can either, you get the general gist today,

2:40:30or that's something that we bring as a recommendation

2:40:33when it's at council at the end of the month,

2:40:35so that we're not doing math on the fly.

2:40:37And then we could also maybe talk to councillor Goller

2:40:40directly about this,

2:40:41so that we get it 100% correct on those bigger numbers,

2:40:45because I don't want to get any math lost

2:40:46in the transition from a square meters to,

2:40:49the program's $175,000,

2:40:52and it's got to be covered or the program can't go.

2:40:56So actually, CEO Stewart,

2:40:58I'm just wondering, Councillor Goller,

2:41:02we have two questions.

2:41:03So I have a motion coming that is about the funding source.

2:41:06And your question is about timing and phasing in.

2:41:10So I'm wondering if you would consider rewarding your motion

2:41:16so that staff have an opportunity before the end of the month

2:41:20to come back with options on how it's paid for,

2:41:23and then whether phasing in is an option or not.

2:41:30To your chair, Rourke,

2:41:31yes, I'll work on rewarding so that it's clear

2:41:34that my intention is that the additional funds

2:41:37do come from the municipal accommodation tax

2:41:39and not from the property tax base.

2:41:43And the phasing, currently,

2:41:45there is a cost of $3 per square meter for the season,

2:41:49and it's going up to $10 per square meter per month.

2:41:54And however, staff figure that that could be divided,

2:41:58just so that instead of going from 180 bucks a year

2:42:01to $3,000 per year, we might go in a couple of steps.

2:42:06That is my intention.

2:42:07Okay, so would you like to withdraw the motion?

2:42:10I will, and then I'll send an email momentarily

2:42:15to everyone else.

2:42:16Okay, so I need your seconder to also withdraw,

2:42:19agree to withdraw.

2:42:24Is your mic on?

2:42:27So is your microphone on?

2:42:28I'm happy to withdraw, and I'd like to also chair

2:42:30just make a suggestion if you don't mind

2:42:33after you remove the motion.

2:42:35Okay, anyone opposed to removing of the motion?

2:42:39No, okay, Mayor Guthrie, your comment.

2:42:43Thank you, just to help, ignore me if you wish,

2:42:46but Councillor Goller has sort of this financial question.

2:42:50You have a financial question chair,

2:42:53and then I heard earlier Councillor Billings ask

2:42:55sort of an impact of financial questions

2:42:57that may even include legal.

2:42:59So it seems to me like we have three things going on

2:43:02where we just collectively need more information.

2:43:04I think we could all agree with that.

2:43:07And so I'm just wondering how staff would feel

2:43:10through you, Chair, how they would like to

2:43:16come back before the end of the month

2:43:17with an updated memo or something like that

2:43:19that could become public for the addendum.

2:43:21Do you require motions on all three of those things

2:43:27or in normal sort of working together,

2:43:29teamwork arena here, are you hearing what our comments are?

2:43:35Could you take them away and at least provide us

2:43:38with that information without the need of motions

2:43:40before the end of the month?

2:43:41Because you can kind of tell where we're going.

2:43:44Three Madam Chair, we could absolutely deal

2:43:46with our motions for the end of the month.

2:43:48On the three items, Councillor Billings was bonus in,

2:43:51Councillor O'Rourke, you're asking,

2:43:53really both of you are asking about who pays the tab.

2:43:56So I think we could do that and give you the memo

2:44:00and give you lots of clarity,

2:44:01and then you could vote to your heart's content

2:44:04on however you want to do this.

2:44:07Okay, so to be clear, I think Councillor Goller

2:44:11and I are going to be an opposite end to the spectrum.

2:44:12I don't support use of the MAT far in excess

2:44:16of what the user fee is and to erode that amount.

2:44:19So I'll give it back to staff,

2:44:21take a look at what those options are.

2:44:23I don't think that was certainly my original understanding

2:44:26of how the MAT tax was going to be used.

2:44:29Councillor Katelyn, you also had a motion.

2:44:33So my motion would also fit into the takeaway

2:44:36because I was going to ask that the city staff

2:44:38be directed to report to city council

2:44:41at the end of the month meeting regarding the fee structure

2:44:44and broader impact of a three season patio program

2:44:47because the lowering of the times of the patio program

2:44:52impacts the equity and use of those who,

2:44:56because as much as a lot of folks are no longer

2:44:59taking COVID safety protocols, we still have COVID.

2:45:03And for a lot of folks,

2:45:05that means that the patio is the only place

2:45:07that they can safely eat and participate

2:45:11in the downtown economy.

2:45:12So I was interested in having a expansion

2:45:16of the patio season rather than closing it down.

2:45:22So it doesn't need to be a motion

2:45:23if that's something that can also be brought back.

2:45:25So I, Councillor Katelyn, I'd have a point of order

2:45:27and I need to go to the point of order first.

2:45:29I apologize, Councillor O'Rourke and Councillor Katelyn

2:45:32and Councillor Goller and Councillor everybody.

2:45:36But I am looking at the recommendation

2:45:38as it currently stands.

2:45:40And I am wondering whether this recommendation

2:45:42because of all of the extra information

2:45:45should now be tabled, referred to for whatever

2:45:49until the end of the month.

2:45:52The recommendation as it stands strikes me

2:45:54as not necessarily entirely viable

2:45:57as we're sending staff away to do a number of things.

2:46:00Is that appropriate?

2:46:02I'm asking the chair.

2:46:06Are you making a motion to refer?

2:46:08I would make a motion to, do we call it refer or defer?

2:46:13No, defer stops everything.

2:46:16Refer, refer to the end of the month

2:46:18with a report from staff.

2:46:19Is open to debate and can be amended.

2:46:22Mr. Clerk, I'll seek your advice here.

2:46:23Yeah, if I may chair O'Rourke and thank you.

2:46:26The only advice I would provide is for council

2:46:28and committee to understand that really committee

2:46:31the whole moving on to council is in effect

2:46:33a referral in and of itself based

2:46:35on sort of our governance model.

2:46:36So if this is, if the recommendation on the agenda

2:46:39is adopted tonight, then it will flow

2:46:42to the end of the month as is.

2:46:44And if staff per CEO, stewards comments

2:46:47are willing to come back with information

2:46:49that can give more context and responses

2:46:51to some of the questions that council may have

2:46:54then that will come to fruition at the end of the month

2:46:58in July here when this comes back to council.

2:47:00So a referral is perfectly in order

2:47:02if chair O'Rourke you choose for it to be permitted

2:47:05but in effect the recommendation on the agenda

2:47:07is in effect a referral to council

2:47:09at the end of the month for final decision.

2:47:10Great, so I'm feeling it's not necessary

2:47:12because in effect we've given some not formal direction

2:47:16but raised a number of questions that need to be answered

2:47:20before we can codify everything at the end of the month.

2:47:23Okay, so folks we're back to the main motion

2:47:28with the exception.

2:47:29I wanna go back to Councillor Caton though

2:47:30because Councillor Caton's question is not about funding it

2:47:33it is about its duration.

2:47:35So Councillor Caton the floor is yours again.

2:47:39Yeah, so basically I wanted to make sure

2:47:41that we had options for people

2:47:45to have a longer season of patio usage.

2:47:49But my question was about the fee structure

2:47:51and the broader impact of a three season patio program.

2:47:55So I don't know if we need to do that as a motion now

2:47:58or if that's something that staff can take away

2:48:00and come back with just as information on their own.

2:48:04So I'm wondering if staff would like to comment

2:48:06on the length of the program

2:48:07and why you landed where you did,

2:48:09what some options might be for all season dining

2:48:13and then the financial part can come back

2:48:16at the end of the month, so that makes sense.

2:48:18Is that suitable Councillor Caton?

2:48:24Through you chair to Councillor Caton.

2:48:27So the development of the dates

2:48:31for the seasonal patio program were developed

2:48:34because of the use of patios,

2:48:37particularly in the first month, April

2:48:39and the last month, October of the program

2:48:42that is currently in operation right now.

2:48:45With those reduced activation times,

2:48:50taking patios off the streets

2:48:51and reinvesting that parking was part of that decision

2:48:56in consideration of businesses

2:48:58who do not operate patios as well as those who do.

2:49:02In addition, we also are in consideration

2:49:06of our operations staff who are in winter control

2:49:09until April 15th every season.

2:49:12And then we often have things like concrete repair

2:49:15that has to occur, and those kinds of things

2:49:18aren't really available until at least the end of April.

2:49:21So that's where that beginning date kind of came from.

2:49:26And then October leaf collection

2:49:29and those kinds of things in preparing for winter

2:49:31as well as the reduced use of the patios

2:49:34was where we kind of came together

2:49:36with those dates that we've presented.

2:49:40In reference, I do think it would be great

2:49:42for a staff to take it away

2:49:44and consider what it would look like

2:49:46and what the impacts would be cost wise

2:49:48and operationally for an extension.

2:49:54Okay, so procedurally any Councillor can put a motion down.

2:49:58And as long as you have a seconder, we need to vote,

2:50:00but I just wanna make sure Councillor Caton,

2:50:01are you okay with the response that you got

2:50:04and then waiting till the end of the month

2:50:05for more detail on that?

2:50:08Yes, I'm fine to wait till the end of the month.

2:50:10Thank you very much.

2:50:11Okay, Councillor Klassen also has a motion.

2:50:15Thank you.

2:50:17So I wanna just say, I love the patio program

2:50:21before I continue with my motions.

2:50:23I think it's great.

2:50:25I don't need to be long about it.

2:50:27It's bringing life to downtown and that is what we need.

2:50:31People like Richard connecting with people in our communities

2:50:34and making it a vibrant place.

2:50:36So I'm all for it.

2:50:39I hear both sides of the arguments

2:50:43and so that's when where this motion comes up.

2:50:46So I've had a number of conversations with folks downtown,

2:50:49business owners who don't have a direct benefit

2:50:53from the patio program.

2:50:56Doesn't mean it's not great.

2:50:57It just means that they're feeling,

2:51:00they're not feeling the love.

2:51:02So in reference to that,

2:51:04I've had a number of conversations with regard to parking

2:51:06and I think that potentially this motion

2:51:08might address some of that.

2:51:09So I'll just read it out since it's on the screen.

2:51:15That in preparation for the seasonal patio program,

2:51:17staff be directed to research and report back to council

2:51:20by Q1 2024.

2:51:22On the following options for businesses impacted

2:51:24by reductions in downtown parking.

2:51:27Oh, sorry, I didn't get a seconder.

2:51:29Thank you.

2:51:30Yeah, no, I'm reading it still, right?

2:51:32Okay.

2:51:33I'm just reading it's course.

2:51:34Go ahead.

2:51:35The conversion, so the first part,

2:51:37the conversion of a small number of two hour parking spots

2:51:40to temporary short term parking spaces during business hours

2:51:43and or the creation of a program where businesses

2:51:46can offer free parking to their customers

2:51:48in the city parkades to offset the reduced

2:51:50on street two hour parking.

2:51:53I think this might address some of the concerns

2:51:56from the other side.

2:51:59Thank you, councillor class.

2:52:00And here's what I will propose

2:52:01because these are really about parking

2:52:03and not about the permanent patio program.

2:52:09I would like to call a vote on the permanent patio program

2:52:13permitting process and then come back to your motion.

2:52:17And do you have a secondary?

2:52:18So we're all lined up.

2:52:20So you can see councillor Goller is going to second that.

2:52:22Okay.

2:52:22So I'd like to call a vote on the main motion.

2:52:30Okay.

2:52:31We can pull up the main motion.

2:52:34And then what we'll do is we'll just go to the parking piece.

2:52:36Okay.

2:52:38So the seasonal patio program as described

2:52:40in the permanent seasonal patio program report

2:52:42due to July 5th be approved pending budget approval

2:52:45as part of the 2024 or 2027 multi-year budget.

2:52:49Is anyone opposed?

2:52:53Okay.

2:52:54That passes.

2:52:56And then we'll go back to councillor Klassen

2:52:59for your motions, which are related

2:53:00to the property, but not a little bit separate.

2:53:03Okay.

2:53:04So those motions are on the floor.

2:53:06They have been read.

2:53:08Councillor Goller seconded.

2:53:10Are there any questions?

2:53:11Mayor Guthrie.

2:53:13Thank you.

2:53:14I just want to through you chair to staff

2:53:16especially on the second one.

2:53:21I just wanted to ask maybe to the mover first,

2:53:25are you trying to implement something like immediate

2:53:28like this summer?

2:53:29I think if this gets,

2:53:30if your motion passed at the council meeting

2:53:32at the end of this month,

2:53:33are you looking for something to hit on August the first?

2:53:37What was your intent behind the timing

2:53:39of your second motion?

2:53:42So the timing is, I think to report back by Q122 and four.

2:53:47So it's not for this summer.

2:53:50I don't think that would be a sufficient amount of time

2:53:53to explore some of the options,

2:53:55especially if there's price tags associated with them.

2:53:58So I think an appropriate amount of time

2:54:00would be necessary.

2:54:02I'm so sorry to you, Councillor Klassen.

2:54:06I missed the first part on Q1.

2:54:08So my apologies for asking a very redundant question,

2:54:12but I still have a second question then.

2:54:16And that would be just then through the staff chair

2:54:19through you.

2:54:21How does that timing align

2:54:23with the downtown parking master plan?

2:54:26And could both of those just be instead referred?

2:54:33So it's still passing the motions,

2:54:34but referred to the downtown parking master plan.

2:54:40And then that way it's embedded

2:54:42within that wholesome report

2:54:44where we get a full comprehensive view on everything,

2:54:48how everything's moving in regards to parking

2:54:50if it comes before Q1 next year.

2:54:56Through the chair to Mayor Graf 3.

2:54:57So yes, the downtown parking plan is coming in September

2:55:00and some of this information,

2:55:01plus a lot of other information

2:55:03will be available in that report.

2:55:06Okay, as a follow up through you chair, if you don't mind.

2:55:10You just said some of this information

2:55:12will be already embedded in that report.

2:55:15So I just need to drill down on that.

2:55:17Are you specifically saying exactly

2:55:19what Councillor Klassen has moved

2:55:21will already be addressed in that report?

2:55:26Yes, it will.

2:55:27Oh, okay.

2:55:31So maybe through you chair,

2:55:33based on that answer from staff,

2:55:35now that you know that your exact two things

2:55:37are going to be addressed in September,

2:55:39do you, I'll leave it to you chair

2:55:42to determine whether this is a needed motion then or not.

2:55:46I'll go to the mover.

2:55:51I think my intention was specifically with regard to,

2:55:56you know, the folks downtown,

2:55:58it's in reference to the patio program specifically,

2:56:02the downtown master plan,

2:56:03I'm assuming is, you know, all,

2:56:06so it is just downtown.

2:56:07So will there be this type of exploration of program

2:56:12or do I still need the motion to explore options

2:56:17for those who are impacted by the patio program?

2:56:22Through the chair to Councillor Klassen.

2:56:24So yes, the downtown parking plan is just for downtown,

2:56:29but if you want us to explore beyond that,

2:56:31it would be additional work,

2:56:32which we would that could report in Q1 2024,

2:56:36if the concern is beyond the downtown.

2:56:44What would you like to do, Councillor Klassen?

2:56:46I think I would let it stand as it is,

2:56:49just because it's an exploration

2:56:50and it's not, we're not spending any money

2:56:53at this point in time, right?

2:56:55So if it's already being, right, I'm sorry.

2:56:59It's okay, we can ask staff what the,

2:57:01what the like workload looks like

2:57:03and what the implications are if you'd like to do that.

2:57:07You can certainly let your motion stand.

2:57:15Chair O'Rourke, I just, thank you so much.

2:57:18Thank you.

2:57:19I just want to ask one more time.

2:57:20So we're all really clear

2:57:21because maybe I'm the one that's not clear.

2:57:23I just heard staff say that in the report

2:57:25that's coming forward in September,

2:57:28that the very two things you've tabled

2:57:30are going to be addressed in that report.

2:57:32So I'm not understanding why we need a motion

2:57:36for something that we've just heard our staff say

2:57:38is coming back in September.

2:57:50Okay, so maybe then can you just clarify

2:57:53what will be in the parking master plan

2:57:56with regard to those two issues?

2:58:01You know, I know if it's,

2:58:02if there's already a structure in place for that,

2:58:04just so that I know that it's being,

2:58:06when it comes across,

2:58:07it will be addressing some of the patio concerns specifically.

2:58:14Through the chair to Councillor Klassen.

2:58:16So the downtown parking master plan

2:58:18is talking about utilization rates

2:58:23and time of usage.

2:58:23So it's going to cover off a lot of information

2:58:26that may already be what you're looking for.

2:58:30I think perhaps just to get certain clarity,

2:58:33we all can meet with you between now

2:58:35and the end of the month

2:58:35and make sure you're comfortable with where

2:58:38if we have the information covered off

2:58:41and if not, then the motion can continue

2:58:45on at the end of the month

2:58:46because it was a Q1 reporting date.

2:58:49Okay, yes.

2:58:51Because yeah, I'd love to see like a subsection

2:58:53in the master plan that references the, you know,

2:58:57the patio program.

2:59:00Okay, so if that's suitable,

2:59:03would you like to withdraw the motion?

2:59:05Cause you can bring it at the end of the month

2:59:06or you can bring it when actually

2:59:08the downtown parking master plan comes back

2:59:10if it's not in there, right?

2:59:12So I'm just asking what you'd like to do with the motion.

2:59:16Sure, by the end of the month, we all,

2:59:18okay, so we're gonna withdraw the motion.

2:59:21Councillor Goller, do you agree?

2:59:23Okay, is anyone on council opposed

2:59:25to withdraw all of that motion?

2:59:26It's a little messy today.

2:59:27All right, wonderful.

2:59:30So we have voted on the main motion.

2:59:32It is passed.

2:59:34So, and we will pick up the debate again

2:59:36at the end of the month.

2:59:38That is the only agenda item for IDE.

2:59:42I will require everyone now,

2:59:44every time we talk about patios, say private patio,

2:59:46private property patio permitting process,

2:59:49every single time we talk about it,

2:59:51and it should be part of the permitting process.

2:59:53Okay, that is approved.

2:59:55We are going to take, is it a 30 minute dinner break?

3:00:00So it is five o'clock.