Report IDE-2025-62 regarding a City-initiated Sign By-law (2021)-20621 Amendment dated May 13, 2025 be received.

1:55:35um

1:55:36Do you mind just would staff be okay if we just jumped to the 72

1:55:41Is it 72 gordon? Yeah 72 gordon only because the

1:55:48Sign by law is it is just a presentation. There's no there's no delegations. Would that be okay with everybody?

1:55:56Yeah, okay, if you don't mind. Thank you. I I see our staff are coming down from heritage our heritage planner. So, um

1:56:03Councillor Goller, are you okay? I'm sorry. I'm putting you on the spot. You asked for this to be

1:56:07Pulled so why don't we try to wrap this one up and then we can get to the sign by law. Okay. Go ahead

1:56:13Uh, thank you through your worship. Um

1:56:17When I when I saw this on the on the agenda, I knew that it was coming because we had approved that uh

1:56:23We had put it down in a previous council meeting

1:56:26What I noticed uh this time around is that there was a letter from the owner

1:56:30Uh noting an objection. So I did this morning. I stopped by the the building

1:56:35I spoke to to a couple of the people there. Um, thank you. One of them has been here for for a long time

1:56:41Thank you for being here. Um, and they expressed their concerns with uh the designation and the impacts to both

1:56:48The the maintenance of the building on an ongoing basis

1:56:52And also the limitations that it would present at some point when

1:56:56They might look to redevelop. They made it clear that at this point, they're not looking to to redevelop. It is

1:57:01a business that is working well

1:57:03But they the objected on those reasons. So I wanted to bring it up to council and I wanted to have this conversation

1:57:10I think based on what I heard

1:57:12And what I what I'm reading uh on the on the report and recommendation

1:57:17I'm going to to ask my council colleagues that perhaps this is a building that we may not want to to designate

1:57:24to allow for more flexibility for redevelopment in the future

1:57:29And also to not put that burden on the current property owner to have to maintain the building as is if if they choose to

1:57:36on a

1:57:38ongoing basis to do maintenance and repairs that may not be in keeping with what is there

1:57:44So that is my request and if I could ask that

1:57:48On the on the staff recommendation if we can just separate one and two because I of course want to receive the

1:57:57Notice of objection and to vote against the the recommendation and

1:58:01And with this if I could just ask

1:58:03procedurally from from staff for of course their comments, but also

1:58:07procedurally if council were to not approve the the staff recommendation what would happen at this point

1:58:14Yeah, I think if you don't mind councillor Goller. I think why don't we

1:58:18Just take a moment here for anybody including yourself to ask questions of staff around kind of what you've brought up

1:58:25And then you can come back to us to look to approve or not approve what's here. So um

1:58:30Why don't we go with at least that first question, which is if council were not to approve

1:58:36the designation

1:58:38What happens?

1:58:45Through the mayor

1:58:47Council would have to withdraw the notice of intention to designate at tonight's meeting

1:58:57So based on

1:58:59What councillor Goller has brought up?

1:59:01Do you have any other questions that you want staff to answer publicly about what's in front of us or do you want to leave it to

1:59:07council

1:59:08I would leave that to council and I think if we vote this down then I will

1:59:14Work with staff to to put together wording to to remove the

1:59:19That the designation as

1:59:24Well, then I have a question then maybe I'll just jump in first to break the ice

1:59:29so

1:59:31Is there is there some

1:59:35Does the designation cause problems for redevelopment of the site?

1:59:40I mean that's really the crux of what I think councillor Goller has brought forward

1:59:44So we have a designation in front of us. Let's say council approves it

1:59:49What is onerous or a hurdle?

1:59:53or

1:59:54problems in the future of trying to

1:59:58Maintain and or develop the site either with the current owner or if they put it up for sale and somebody else

2:00:07um through the mayor

2:00:09We crafted this bylaw

2:00:12Specifically knowing that the site would likely be redeveloped

2:00:15um, the attributes listed are just the wall along gordon street and just the wall along surrey street

2:00:23Because we anticipate that someday there may be height on this property

2:00:28um, if designated

2:00:30Proponent would have to provide a heritage impact assessment to show that the property is

2:00:37Conserving its heritage value through a development

2:00:41But fundamentally as long as those walls remain in place

2:00:45That would be the only restriction on site and there would be flexibility there for

2:00:53You know possibly removing portions of a wall

2:00:57Relocating things reconstructing things

2:01:00I think I'd like to emphasize that there's more flexibility

2:01:03Within a heritage designation than is often assumed and so the ball would very much be in whomever was developing the property's court

2:01:11to

2:01:12Demonstrate how they could conserve the property's heritage value

2:01:17Thank you. And just as a final follow-up then for me

2:01:20um

2:01:21Are those walls and I mean when I drive by it I get why I personally get why there's heritage value. I do

2:01:29um

2:01:30But can those walls be removed and then incorporated into a development?

2:01:37um

2:01:38Or do they have to stay as the people try to work around it? I just wanted to understand

2:01:44um

2:01:45How onerous it is if someone were to remove

2:01:48And then try to incorporate into a

2:01:528 10 12 whatever the height would be for that

2:01:56Okay, you get my question. Yeah through the mayor. Um, absolutely. There would be flexibility there to

2:02:03Move the walls deconstruct and reconstruct the walls. Um, again

2:02:08There's lots of options available for conservation

2:02:13Okay, thank you. Uh councillor Allt

2:02:16Thank you very much. Mayor guthrie just following up on what you have raised. I think that uh through you to staff

2:02:23And I hope that we can get some clarification

2:02:26If I even ask the question right

2:02:28Part of the confusion I think is

2:02:31The public is not clear what a part four part five part whatever heritage designation

2:02:38puts on them as a responsibility

2:02:42Is a part four heritage designation an absolute restriction on development on the site or is it flexible?

2:02:52Or is it confined to only certain aspects? In other words, it's rigid

2:02:57But there's only certain elements of a structure to which it is confined

2:03:05through the mayor, um

2:03:07If I have one goal as a heritage planner, it's to change people's misconceptions around designation

2:03:13um, I I think designation is a very valuable tool for municipalities to guide change

2:03:21Um, but I I do not think it should be used to prevent change

2:03:26I see it as a very

2:03:28Flexible tool that allows property owners and the city to have a conservation about the future of a property

2:03:36And as a heritage planner my personal practice is to have a lot of latitude towards change. I

2:03:43Like yourself, um, I I'm a historian and my favorite definition of history is the study of change over time

2:03:50And I don't think what we're here to do is to prevent change

2:03:54I think we're here to prevent significant loss of heritage resources

2:03:58And so that's the opportunity that designation affords is for the city to consider loss to historic places

2:04:05Uh before they occur

2:04:08Thank you

2:04:10Like a Quran, please

2:04:15actually my questions and comments are almost identical to our our heritage planners comments about

2:04:20Uh the the flexibility and the potential for change

2:04:25um, when I look at a designation I I I don't look at um

2:04:30You know, I know this sounds harsh, but it isn't about the owner's wishes. It's about the community's

2:04:36um

2:04:37preservation of places um that tell stories

2:04:41And I look at the quadrant around gordon and wellington and we've lost pretty much everything

2:04:46There is very very little remnant

2:04:48Of the original building and a lot of people might think oh well those were all vacant lots at one time

2:04:54They'll almost everything in that entire precinct is on its second third and fourth iteration

2:05:01Um, there were blacksmiths. There's a blacksmith shop and and some some working class homes and

2:05:07Almost everything from that area um has been lost. This is the last remnant

2:05:12So I do think that the the the elements identified for preservation conservation within a designation are key to its

2:05:21adaptability for um for reuse and by just um

2:05:27Designating the exterior wall area

2:05:31We're actually it's a win-win. We get the story that continues to be told and still have an opportunity for development

2:05:38Which we all know is going to happen in and around this site

2:05:42So I would urge my colleagues to think past its current use and think think past

2:05:48You know

2:05:50The stewardship of of one particular owner or future owners and look at the story that can be told on that site with its retention

2:05:59Thanks

2:06:01Thank you, uh Richardson, please

2:06:04Thank you through you mayor

2:06:06Can you help me understand what the significance of the walls is like if it's the brick and the type of brick that was used

2:06:12Would that be something that would be able to be if the walls had to be taken down?

2:06:17Could that brick be incorporated somewhere else and and I do love the story about the first

2:06:22Bakery and the bread and and can that I I've been to other areas like allora for instance where they'll

2:06:29They'll have a plot cop telling the story of what that building used to be so that story doesn't get lost

2:06:34I mean I do love the heritage and I do love the the history of it

2:06:37But I'm just wondering if those walls if it's the brick could that be reconfigured into somewhere else if the building had to be

2:06:46remodeled for a particular use

2:06:50Through the mayor

2:06:51The walls facing gordon street and syrie street were identified because they're the primarily

2:06:57Visible architectural elements of the building from the public realm

2:07:01um

2:07:04There are opportunities for selvedge and reuse

2:07:08That is a valid conservation practice

2:07:11If that were something that was proposed it would be considered absolutely

2:07:18So through you mayor is would the owner have to propose that or would it does it have to be designated in order for the owner to

2:07:25Be able to be able to do that or could they do it on their own?

2:07:30Through the mayor that could be done at the owner's prerogative without a designation

2:07:36Uh, but if this property is not designated and it is developed in the future

2:07:41Uh, there will be no conversation between the city and the property owner

2:07:50Councillor Allt then i'll go back to sort of the the mover on this issue to galler. Okay

2:07:55Thank you very much mayor. Guthrie was not my intention to ask a first question

2:07:59Let alone a second question, but as we're going on there are some concerns that I think that

2:08:05Need to be at least publicly

2:08:08Addressed so that people are confident about what we're we're dealing with

2:08:13I've had a couple of residents in a couple of other situations

2:08:16Who've expressed real concern of a potential financial obligation with regards to insurance liability even restoration

2:08:24With the designation of this particular building is there the potential for increased financial obligation or um, or duty to um,

2:08:35To protect the walls in a certain fashion

2:08:42Through the mayor to councillor Allt um

2:08:45There's no obligation beyond what is in the property standards bylaw

2:08:50The property standards bylaw does require maintenance of heritage attributes

2:08:55um

2:08:56but in in the case of this

2:08:59Specific building I I do not believe that would be true. Um, we'd want the walls to be kept in good repair

2:09:05But that would be the full extent

2:09:08With regards to insurance, um

2:09:11This is a problem for designated properties across the province. Um, and it

2:09:16Really seems to go property owner to property owner. Um

2:09:21it depends who they're insured with and

2:09:24There's many variables. Um

2:09:27but

2:09:28heritage planning staff offer letters to property owners to

2:09:32Say what?

2:09:33A property owner's obligations would be in the case of a catastrophic event to offer clarity to insurance companies

2:09:41Just a quick question. I don't because I don't really don't know the answer. Um, does that letter

2:09:47Carry weight with insurance companies. Do you know I don't know I haven't got a clue

2:09:52I I do not know. No, good. Thanks. I'm gonna end here with uh, counselor guller

2:10:08Um

2:10:09Over to you. Thank you. Thank you for pulling it. It's a healthy discussion. Absolutely. Thank you. I appreciate it

2:10:14So so go ahead and my last question to staff just

2:10:19understanding that currently

2:10:21the

2:10:22the owners could

2:10:24Update the building and make changes to the brick facade and they could change the materials

2:10:30By passing this this regulation then they would be prevented from from making those changes understandably

2:10:36Which would have some cost associated. Does the city have any?

2:10:42Community improvement

2:10:44Grants, I know we had them for the downtown for a long time

2:10:47If someone in downtown had a heritage building

2:10:49They wanted to do repairs to maintain the heritage aspects

2:10:52There were grants available from the city. Are there any grants to help?

2:10:57folks that have heritage buildings

2:10:59to do the repairs and replacements to maintain those heritage attributes

2:11:06Through the marriage of the counselors. So there are no grants available currently

2:11:10I also do want to note that as it's a listed property and it will be till December 31st, 2026

2:11:16So if they were coming in for a development application

2:11:19Just even as a listed property, there would still be heritage requirements that would be required

2:11:29And that is until the end of of next year. That is correct. Okay. Okay

2:11:34Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you. Where's it?

2:11:37Thank you. And just sorry back to Karan for a sec

2:11:41Yeah, I just want clarity on on that those heritage protections. I understand

2:11:47A red a listed property listed on the register but undesignated

2:11:53Doesn't have the same protections. There would be a delay in in any development application

2:11:59while council

2:12:01Contemplates designation, but other than that what what would a listed property

2:12:07Be protected from if it's not designated

2:12:13Just just for my own clarity

2:12:15Yeah, through the marriage of the counselor. So you're correct. So if it's listed, they still have to go through

2:12:20Um, a process and a heritage permit process if they want to make changes

2:12:24Um, to a listed property before um until such time as it's designated if they have a development application

2:12:30For example, if they wanted to come through for higher density

2:12:33Then the consideration of heritage designation would come to council within 60 days of that development application

2:12:41Thanks

2:12:43All right. Thank you

2:12:44So to close this up. I think it's kind of a to me to me

2:12:48It's a it's an up or down. Right like once we put the recommendations on the floor

2:12:52I mean, you either you either agree or you don't right so

2:12:55um, so with that can I please ask a counselor to

2:13:00Look to move one and two for me. The first one is to receive the second one is to designate

2:13:05Who would be willing to do that for me? All right, karan and katin. I'll go stick on the screen

2:13:11and

2:13:12And then is there anything further any comments before?

2:13:16Oh, yes, I'll separate for you for you counselor caller

2:13:19Is there any comments at all before I call the vote on number one?

2:13:22And number one is that the notice of objection to intention to designate 72 gordon street date april 10th 2025

2:13:28from nancy schner be received

2:13:33And so is there anyone against the that receiving of that notice?

2:13:39Okay, so that's unanimous

2:13:41And then to the final one, which is the designation that the designation bylaw for 72 gordon street be approved

2:13:48So any comments on that before I call the vote at all?

2:13:52No, okay. Um, I will call the vote then is anyone against that

2:14:00Okay

2:14:02Guthrie and billings and galler and chew and richardson

2:14:09And so in favor would be katin and karan and

2:14:16Downer and

2:14:18Alt and busatil. Oh, we have to tie vote. Wow

2:14:23Guys my strong mayors. No

2:14:26Um, so that fails

2:14:30Through you mr. Mayor, that's correct. A tie vote is considered a failed motion

2:14:34Okay

2:14:37That's that's it

2:14:39Um, so as a follow-up you've sent something counselor goer

2:14:42Yes, your worship. I just sent something to uh

2:14:45Staff and to clerks just to verify that the wording of the motion would work to withdraw the notice of the designation

2:14:56Through you, mr. Mayor, we'll just ask clerks office staff to bring up the motion we have in the deck right now

2:15:01It's very similar to the wording that you've presented counselor goer. We'll just get you to confirm it

2:15:12That is just that it's be withdrawn if that works with with staff

2:15:17And uh, okay, so I'm gonna call the vote. Sorry. I need this so it's moved by yourself

2:15:22I'll move to the notice of intention to designate 72 Gordon issued march 27th 2025 be withdrawn in accordance with section

2:15:31297 of the anterior heritage act

2:15:34Okay, and then seconded by Richardson

2:15:36Okay, so now it's kind of a reverse here. I think I know where this vote might go

2:15:41Um, this will be interesting

2:15:45So all those against please raise your hand

2:15:49Okay, kate and karan

2:15:51and uh downer and alt and busatil

2:15:55So this is a very this is very interesting catch 22

2:16:00Uh, so that's it it fails

2:16:02So we need to ask staff

2:16:06Um, where do we go from here?

2:16:10This is an interesting, uh, this is interesting for those online staff are conferring right now. Okay

2:16:17Through you mr. Mayor, I'll start and then uh plan and staff may be able to maybe able to help from a procedural perspective

2:16:23No motion is carried. So there's no decision. There's no decision to approve. There's no decision to withdraw the designation

2:16:30So it is as is

2:16:32Council in the case of ties, especially related to land use planning applications can revisit it at a future meeting

2:16:39But I would look to planning staff

2:16:42To comment on how the timelines of the Ontario Heritage Act might impact

2:16:47This particular application if it was moved to the next council planning meeting in June

2:17:00Thank you. Mayor Guthrie

2:17:03We have until July 25th

2:17:07to

2:17:09Respond to this but if nothing happens if there is no motion to designate brought forward within that time

2:17:17Then it just lapses and it's

2:17:19Not designated

2:17:22Okay, but can I just as a follow-up is there is there an obligation on staff to actually bring it forward again?

2:17:30No, okay. No, it would not be staff bringing it forward but we as a

2:17:34Planning body have not made a decision

2:17:37So I'm just wondering like clerks. Did you want to jump in again?

2:17:41Through you, we're working through this here

2:17:43One option open to council would be to refer it to the June council planning meeting. That'll bring it back to june

2:17:49At which point council could reconsider it. Yeah, I think I think uh

2:18:15I think I would feel comfortable. We we've got to land on a decision. So I would feel more comfortable with a deferral

2:18:23Motion to the june planning meeting

2:18:27I think that's the proper way of closing this down

2:18:31So can I have someone please move a deferral on this matter to the june planning meeting? Okay, boost it till we'll do that

2:18:39And galler will second it

2:18:41Okay, and is there any questions on that before I call sure karan go ahead

2:18:46It's more of a question. I mean it seems some of my colleagues have have concerns and rightfully so if you if

2:18:54If those exist and and that guided your vote

2:18:57Does it have to be the same motion that comes back to the june council meeting?

2:19:01So for example, if some of the concerns are about the scope of the designation

2:19:06whether it's the entire front facade and side walls or just the the bricks or the the

2:19:12um the shape of the facade if there are concerns about the specific designated elements that may

2:19:20Change the vote in june if

2:19:23If do the staff want direction on that or would staff go back out to the owner and talk about

2:19:30Potential changes. What would what would the heritage planner recommend in that regard that may change the outcome of this?

2:19:35So I was just being I was just totally being polite there to let you finish

2:19:39I didn't want to interrupt you but technically and procedurally I have to call the vote because it was a deferral. There's no there's no

2:19:47Talking no anything I have I'm so sorry, you know, I'm not trying to do it on purpose

2:19:51No questions. It was yeah, I know we can't debate it, but it was a question

2:19:55Yeah, I think I think fair that it's out in the open

2:19:57I think between now and june if there's questions of members of council

2:20:02Or staff to the to the owner or whatever that can all happen before it comes back in june

2:20:07But I do have to call the vote right now. Okay, so is anyone against the deferral to the planning in june for this for this for this issue

2:20:16No, okay, that's unanimous. Thank you. That was very interesting. I don't think I've ever dealt with that

2:20:22So that was very interesting. Okay, so I would I would take up councillor Caron's ideas like if if there is a question

2:20:29between us and staff or between staff and the owner like you know, you can you can talk between now and and

2:20:36And and june

2:20:37But be prepared that the exact same thing

2:20:41Is being flown to the june the june discussion and then we can talk about amendments or edits or things there

2:20:47But the exact same thing you've seen today will fly to the june planning meeting

2:20:51It's as if we're pausing and picking it up again

2:20:55At that point. Okay, so thank you everybody. Let's move on and uh, let's talk about signs

2:21:03Kelly you've been waiting

2:21:06For a long time. Sorry

2:21:08Thank you very much. This is a proposed proposed amendments to the sign by-law

2:21:12we're gonna have a quick presentation

2:21:15and

2:21:18Kelly you're gonna walk us through it

2:21:21And then we'll come back to us and this will be the last item for the day. So go ahead

2:21:27Good evening mayor counselors staff and members of the public

2:21:31Thank you for listening to my presentation tonight about the proposed amendments to the sign by-law

2:21:38The purpose is

2:21:39well, actually, sorry, let's start the

2:21:42Current sign by-law was passed by council in july 2021. It was a three-year project to update a 1996 sign by-law

2:21:50There was extensive public

2:21:53consultation

2:21:58Sorry, can someone just tell me what button to press?

2:22:01The big green one in the middle

2:22:09The big the other big green one. Okay

2:22:12We're good to go now

2:22:14extensive public consultation was completed

2:22:18Including a stakeholder group that consisted of sign companies the sign association of canada the downtown business

2:22:24Association the chamber of commerce university golf golf home builders golf wellington development association

2:22:31And the golf and district association of realtors

2:22:34So you may be asking why are we here?

2:22:37um

2:22:39with the passing of the zoning by-law

2:22:43um

2:22:45All the regulations in the sign by-law

2:22:49Are based on zone categories

2:22:51From the zoning by-law. So with the passing of the 2023

2:22:56Zoning by-law

2:22:58All the news we have now new zone category names

2:23:03So this amendment also is giving staff the opportunity to correct format and update the by-law and propose new minor

2:23:09regulations

2:23:12So first formatting changes that we are doing

2:23:17This is an example

2:23:19We're changing all the definitions previously. They aren't bolded

2:23:23Now they're proposed to be bolded. This will make it more clear and concise for people to know to refer to a specific term back in the definitions

2:23:36Each section also included zone categories that were listed duplicated twice. So we're just

2:23:44Come like deleting some just to make it more concise some clear to read

2:23:50um

2:23:57so

2:23:59As you see here, this is an example of our commercial

2:24:03section in the by-law

2:24:05we're moving from

2:24:08The old

2:24:09C1 and C C C zones to our commercial mixed use center zones mixed use corridor zones and neighborhood commercial zones

2:24:22One of the bigger changes that we're doing is moving the convenience commercial zone

2:24:29That was previously grouped together

2:24:32with

2:24:33all of our larger zone categories

2:24:36to

2:24:37the mixed office commercial zone chart

2:24:41The purpose of this as you see here

2:24:45All of our cc zones

2:24:47Coversial commute convenient zones are small commercial properties that are surrounded by residential zones

2:24:54Just similarly to the orange at the bottom of the slide our mixed office commercial zones

2:25:01Previously the cc zones could have

2:25:03a six meter tall ground sign

2:25:06Now with the change where they are with the mixed office commercial zones

2:25:11They will have we have a maximum permission of a 1.8 meter high sign

2:25:17ground sign

2:25:18Still can have the

2:25:21Facial signs illuminated all the regulations will see

2:25:26It's just more appropriate surrounded with the residential land uses to have the cc zones with the moc zones

2:25:37So with this amendment, we're also proposing some minor additions

2:25:43And there as follows

2:25:45There's new sign variance criteria proposed under section 7.7

2:25:50For determining whether or not to grant a variance

2:25:54And it's proposed whether the sign by law can be met with similar alternative signage

2:25:59Staff was finding a lot of sign variances were being proposed

2:26:04Just because a larger sign was wanted a taller sign was wanted

2:26:09um

2:26:11And really staff pushes back and says if you can meet the sign by law when appropriate, please do

2:26:19We are creating a new definition of building facade to clarify that only one sign is permitted

2:26:26per side of a building on the top story

2:26:29In service commercial institutional industrial zones

2:26:34The previous definition or how the regulation was written

2:26:39It wasn't 100 clear that it was the intent was only to have

2:26:45one sign

2:26:47per facade on the top story of a building

2:26:51In section 9 of prohibited signs

2:26:54A new regulation is being added

2:26:57to

2:26:59Prohibit any sign not specifically listed in this bylaw

2:27:03Because applicants do become creative and we do some creative signs out there. So therefore

2:27:10If it's not listed in the bylaw it is not permitted

2:27:13Or requires a variance

2:27:15To be permitted

2:27:18Staff is also introducing a new regulation

2:27:22um

2:27:23For illuminated facial signs when facing residential land uses

2:27:27Or sorry residential zones. Let me be more specific with residential zones

2:27:32um with our new zoning bylaw

2:27:35commercial properties are to

2:27:37more have

2:27:39Be closer to the streets therefore parking lots are behind

2:27:44and

2:27:45businesses for example at the corner of lozen gordon. There's a couple developments there

2:27:51Where the new

2:27:52Maybe two-story businesses or one-story businesses can have now signage on the back of their buildings

2:27:59Where the parking lot is

2:28:01So staff wanted to ensure that there was a minimum distance

2:28:05for illuminated signs between the back of the business and the rear of those residential properties

2:28:11And we were proposing to have it to be 15 meters which mirrors

2:28:15The distance required for a ground sign illuminated sign to be

2:28:20From a residential property

2:28:24Another introduction is the maximum height of 12 meters for any facious sign

2:28:29In industrial zones when it's permitted on the first or second story of a building

2:28:35That cap of 12 meters is being proposed because in an industrial zones a one-story warehouse could be

2:28:43Technically 20 meters high in our industrial zones

2:28:48Therefore limiting the height to 12 meters on one or two stories

2:28:5412 meters is a generous two-story height in an industrial zone

2:28:59Really matches existing heights for those one

2:29:04Story warehouses where they have the sign

2:29:07On the top and again in industrial zones. You are permitted if you have a 20 meter high building

2:29:13To have one sign at the top of a building if it's not illuminated

2:29:18So this just caps the maximum height of our illuminated signs

2:29:22Other changes are proposed

2:29:24I've totally forgot to flip through this

2:29:30Other signs that are being um changes that are being proposed

2:29:34Um are some deletions of defined terms that are not found in the bylaw

2:29:38Just doing control f and trying to find some things in the bylaw

2:29:41um or replace

2:29:43Just found some

2:29:45Terms that weren't in there

2:29:48Add

2:29:49I already mentioned that one amend the section that requires mto approval to be within the mto control area

2:29:57Other than just within 40

2:29:59400 meters of the handland in stress way the mto mto control area actually goes up

2:30:06Which to pass the curling club and um

2:30:09So any sign facing or within 400 meters

2:30:14This will require either a note or approval from the mto

2:30:19A dimension was missing

2:30:22In a chart for the maximum height of a ground sign for a vehicle sales establishment

2:30:28Seven meters was put in there. It's consistent with every other maximum height of a ground sign when placed six meters back from a street line

2:30:37and

2:30:38There were missing street names and directions in a chart

2:30:42for the location of identified accessible sidewalk routes

2:30:47And those were just filled in

2:30:49Um, they were blank before

2:30:52So that is what's being proposed

2:30:55And our next steps are to compile any council and public feedback

2:31:00I haven't received any comments other than does this affect my current project and the answer was no

2:31:07And just for council's awareness

2:31:10the most

2:31:12Um

2:31:14variances that are requested where

2:31:17staff really

2:31:18Um does not recommend approval is from develop developers who are wishing development signs

2:31:25on properties prior to any council approval

2:31:28so staff has

2:31:30Constantly discouraging that from different developers

2:31:33And also taller ground signs are another one and larger face to science, but really

2:31:40We've had about seven or eight variances per year

2:31:43they are for

2:31:45businesses where it's very difficult to meet

2:31:48The regulations due to maybe roof pitch

2:31:52could be one, um

2:31:55A property

2:31:57The salt toast gym

2:32:00It didn't have any regulations in park zones

2:32:03So that was a property that needed a variance. So really there are scope to properties where

2:32:08They really have difficulties meeting it, but other than that, I haven't received any feedback. So thank you

2:32:16Thanks for your your presentation. We appreciate it

2:32:20would uh

2:32:21Would a councillor just be at least willing to just because it's a to receive only this is for feedback today. So uh galler and alt

2:32:28Thank you. Uh, we'll move and second that

2:32:31um, and then uh

2:32:33Is there any kind of feedback that you'd like to give uh to staff from us then as they go away and

2:32:39consider anything further

2:32:42Boussatil, please

2:32:44Yes, thank you for the presentation. Just a question. Um, if there if uh, uh

2:32:50A sign doesn't fit any of these changes. Is there

2:32:55grandfathering is there

2:32:57A process would they ask for a variance? Is that what the process would be?

2:33:03Yes, when a sign

2:33:04None of the regulations in the bylaw

2:33:07Are really proposed to be changed. They've found to be working. But yes when a sign doesn't fit or can't meet the regulations

2:33:14They do come to staff first

2:33:16To see if it's a supportable sign staff works with the applicant to come to

2:33:23um a sign that really meets the intent of the bylaw and then we can do a variance by delegated authority

2:33:30And again seven or eight or year about and if there's really a sign that staff doesn't support

2:33:36Then the applicant and the applicant wants to move forward. Then we bring it to council for approval

2:33:42or refusal

2:33:44decision

2:33:46Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Busuttil

2:33:50So maybe I'll just I'll just throw out my

2:33:54My my sort of stuff that I I sometimes hear and

2:33:57So the first one is and and councillor Busuttil brought it up perfectly is

2:34:02I

2:34:02This is just my own opinion. I I don't want

2:34:06I don't want to ever see

2:34:08Like an sv law and bmo sign in the hand and creep business park issue come back to council

2:34:13That's just my personal opinion. I don't like it came here. I don't know why it came here. I mean

2:34:19personally

2:34:20council council

2:34:21Approved it. It's fine

2:34:24In my opinion, you know, it's totally fine

2:34:27Uh, is is are we fixing that kind of stuff here?

2:34:29Like I that I just want you to dumb it down for me

2:34:32Like I I hope that that kind of stuff doesn't have to be a problem for staff and ever come to

2:34:37committee of adjustment or

2:34:39Delegated authority or to us like I think in those settings. I just want to make sure like me personally that that's just allowed

2:34:46Is that what you're fixing here or no?

2:34:48Yeah to the mayor. Um, actually no, we are not fixing that. Um

2:34:54Let me explain

2:34:55Okay, in an industrial zones though, we could take that back definitely and um come back to you

2:35:05Um in an industrial zones signage is permitted on the first and second story

2:35:10the unfortunate thing in this industry for this property

2:35:14is that

2:35:17As feel that building has three stories where that means only one sign is permitted on the top story

2:35:26But again, we're limiting the height to 12 meters which on the first or second story that would

2:35:33I did look at that building. I think it is around the 12 meter height. So staff can take that back

2:35:39Okay, well, this is this is a this is a time for opinions and for comments. So I just

2:35:45I just I can't stand that kind of stuff that it's a problem personally like

2:35:50It's in a business area. It's in an employment area. It's not bothering anybody

2:35:55So I just like for me to actually promote an atmosphere of sort of business friendliness and

2:36:02We want you to be seeing that you're here along a highway in an industrial

2:36:06Sorry employment zone like that

2:36:09I just I just want to say my comments on the record that that should be very much allowed

2:36:14Very much easy in my in my personal perspective. So there's my comments for you to take away on that

2:36:19And then I want to do something on the flip side

2:36:21I really like what you're trying to do in regards to the sort of less on the residential side. I actually think that's great

2:36:29I want to just poke a little bit more at the idea of the signage on the back

2:36:34And you gave the kind of the lows and gordon kind of those those little area those little kind of commercial areas

2:36:40Um, can we in our sign bylaw can we actually mandate that they have a shut off at a certain time?

2:36:49So those signs are illuminated up until

2:36:5311 o'clock and at 11 o'clock

2:36:56If it's facing a residential area, it's off like no one's coming there anyways

2:37:01So like I don't understand why it has to be on so can we can we actually mandate that in a sign bylaw?

2:37:07To the mayor, yes, we could we could add a note for those properties

2:37:12That directly about I mean the property line the backyard touches the property line of the parking lot

2:37:19Yes, we could mandate that

2:37:21Okay, so I I'm putting my comments on the record right now. I would I want that I mean it depends on my colleagues

2:37:28But I want that I so

2:37:30My question then would be to you what happens to the existing commercial that has that in place today?

2:37:36Will they then be forced to?

2:37:38You know implement or buy technology or electrical shutoffs and timers

2:37:44What happens to the existing ones that are there? Yeah

2:37:47to the mayor

2:37:49Um, they could be grandfather, but can we take that back and discuss that definitely? Okay, and then my final thing

2:37:55I've mentioned this only once before several several years ago

2:37:59And so I know it's very particular

2:38:03But very particular but Douglas street downtown. Okay Douglas street downtown is a

2:38:09commercial area, but it's also like

2:38:13It's one that is used often for films and for television and it's a this quaint little street that can be attractive

2:38:20so are we gonna are we gonna

2:38:24Are we gonna restrict sort of neon signs and large commercial signs that would kind of go along Douglas street or?

2:38:32Some of our other kind of heritage

2:38:35Sort of areas that that are in our downtown core, especially

2:38:39Is there I mean the western hotel is a perfect one where it has the the wraparound neon?

2:38:44I remember that coming to council actually. I think we we voted to allow that

2:38:48I kind of like that. It's kind of neat, but but there's some areas where

2:38:53I don't know it just it just for me if we try to keep it

2:38:58keep the signage quaint and

2:39:00I know it's the exact opposite. I just said about like business friendliness. I know it's exact opposite

2:39:05But I'm just trying to I'm just trying to make sure that we don't have

2:39:09You know a street that's just full of flashing neon signs and stuff like that that can especially like on Douglas street

2:39:14That you know a quaint little street like that. So where are you on that kind of stuff?

2:39:19To the merit there is nothing in the sign by law that

2:39:24Regulates area a specific street or a district

2:39:30It was not do you know if do you know if 2021?

2:39:34pardon it was not done in 2021 and yeah

2:39:37Do you know if there's bias anywhere?

2:39:41that do you have restrictions on

2:39:44In the in a bia geographical area that have restrictions on signage

2:39:48It's in the merit. I do not know but I have a couple of ideas what municipalities to look at for that

2:39:55I I see other staff saying something

2:39:58Go ahead. I'll just jump in to mayor Guthrie. We'll take this back and and take a look at it through the review

2:40:07We are also doing the downtown heritage conservation district as well, which would have

2:40:12recommendations going forward for that type of thing so we can take a look at that project and and come back with you

2:40:20with a with a response at the decision meeting

2:40:24Okay, and I think I'm right when I say this

2:40:28all those

2:40:30cannabis stores

2:40:32They have to buy provincial law be covered. They're they're

2:40:35Front-facing streets have to be completely covered, right?

2:40:39That's not a city thing. That's a very much thing, right? Yes. Yeah

2:40:44And I know it goes against the sign by law regulations what I feel about that. That's fine

2:40:50um

2:40:53One extra thing and then I'm done. Thanks everybody

2:40:56I was at

2:40:57the Ontario BIA conference a couple years ago

2:41:02and

2:41:04Very interesting

2:41:06The BIA and I forget where it was but a bia actually restricted

2:41:11What advertisements were allowed in their downtown?

2:41:16um in their bia district

2:41:19From a signage point of view so that it would only promote the local ma pop shops and stuff in the downtown

2:41:26um

2:41:27Is there is there an actual bylaw that exists that we could

2:41:31Look to that so for instance you have a

2:41:35A bus stop, you know a bus shelter in the downtown

2:41:39And instead of a company that's being promoted

2:41:42That's somewhere else or a large conglomerate that's being promoted

2:41:46The signage that's only allowed there is actually signage for businesses and services in the downtown

2:41:52It is that allowed

2:41:58Yeah through the mayor so we'll take a look at and bias have rules and regulations certain

2:42:03Towns when you think of bamf and others have those type of regulations. We can take a look at it

2:42:07Maybe even through the heritage conservation district

2:42:09um

2:42:10But we want to focus that the intent of this was really the administrative update to

2:42:15Reflect the bylaw that was done with all the consultation and the 2023 comprehensive bylaw

2:42:20And we didn't want to open everything up at this point in time because we've actually not had the proper then consultation for this

2:42:26so we do need to get it in line with the

2:42:292023 comprehensive zoning bylaw, but we'll take it take it back and take a look at some items, but

2:42:35The scope was on this was fairly limited. Okay, and that's fair. I don't want to open up a can of worms

2:42:39So I'm very sorry that I maybe went out of scope there. I'll revert back to the first two

2:42:45Leave leave the sv law stuff alone

2:42:48And uh, and then the automatic shut off. I like I like those two things personally. Okay. I'll be done with that goller

2:42:56Thank you worship

2:42:58Through through to staff

2:43:00I know the city has been doing work on dark skies

2:43:03So I just wanted to ask for an update on that to to see how that would line up with this coming back to council

2:43:17So through the mayor at the council goller. So the light trespass bylaw

2:43:21That you're referring to was approved by council, but I don't believe the actual bylaw itself has come back

2:43:26I think that's work that our operations team and legal is still working on but

2:43:30The the parameters have already been approved by council. So it will simply be coming back on the bylaws

2:43:36At an upcoming meeting. I'll have to get back to you on the exact timing of when we expect to be back

2:43:41Okay, well, thank you for that. Could I would it be too much to ask that when this

2:43:47Update comes back to council. There's a small section in the report that just explains how

2:43:52this signed bylaw works with the

2:43:56Dark sky review

2:43:58Because I think every time that we've had a request for for a sign come to council people say well, what about bird migration?

2:44:06And I think it's important to many community members. So I'd appreciate if that was included

2:44:11Through the mayor to council goller. Yes, certainly the operations team can work and always do work with our colleagues in planning

2:44:15So we'll make sure that they connect before this comes back to you for decision

2:44:20Perfect. Thank you. Thank you very much

2:44:22And oh, sorry go ahead just on the on the point of the the shot of I think that's a fantastic idea your worship

2:44:30Something that I did not see here that I think was a bit of a conflict when we had the the sign for the gulf little theater

2:44:37Was the measurement of the of the lumens and you know, how bright

2:44:41So is that something that that could actually be explicitly mentioned because I I did not find

2:44:47As part of this that it talked about

2:44:49Brightness levels in residential areas. Is that something that will be covered?

2:44:58Yeah, through the mayor of the council. We'll take that back and and include a paragraph in the report staff report on that as well

2:45:05Thank you so much. Thank you worship. Okay. Thank you

2:45:08All right. I took way too much time on that my apologies

2:45:11Um, I it's already been moved and seconded. I believe clerks. Yes. Okay

2:45:17I will call the vote then because it's just to receive comments at this time

2:45:20So is there anyone against receiving the this report?

2:45:26Nobody, okay, that's great. Okay. Um, counselor Gibson isn't uh