Council Planning

7:25Good evening everybody. It is Tuesday May the 13th, 2025. It is six o'clock.

7:32Welcome to our City Council planning meeting and to kick things off,

7:37please stand if you are able as we recognize our national anthem.

9:11Thank you everyone just as we continue a moment of silent reflection.

9:27Great. Thank you and for our territorial acknowledgment as we gather let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work here in Guelph.

9:34As City built over excuse me rich indigenous histories,

9:38guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility to care for the land and the people who live here today and the generations to come.

9:45For actions today can move us towards reconciliation. We should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude.

9:51This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands in a place of refuge for many peoples over time,

9:56but more specifically the Aniwaterok and the Honolashoni.

10:00And this land is held as the treaty lands and territory with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation.

10:05Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman track and is part of a long-established traditional hunting grounds for the six nations of the Grand River.

10:13Many First Nations Inuit and Métis people who have come from across Turtle Island call Guelph home today.

10:21Thanks everyone. Is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest in the general nature thereof for the items on the agenda for us tonight council?

10:29Not hearing or seeing anybody. Just before I continue I did have official regrets from Councillor O'Rourke of course

10:37and Councillor Klassen.

10:41With that we do have the consent agenda in front of us

10:46with just one item on there at 72 Gordon Street the objection to notice of intention

10:53to designate

10:55and would anyone like to

10:58pull that agenda item to be discussed? Okay. Thank you very much Councillor Goller.

11:04Now because we have a couple other items with delegations we do have to go to those first, but we will come back to that later. Okay.

11:13Under the public meetings to hear applications

11:16we do have just

11:19let's see here the one which is 105 Elmira Road.

11:23And then after that we have a discussion with a presentation on just some amendments to assign to our sign by law.

11:31And then that should wrap us up for the evening.

11:34So let's kick us off with the public meeting on 105 Elmira Road, which is the proposed

11:41official plan and zoning

11:43amendments. We're good to have a presentation from our own staff.

11:47And then we do have some delegations

11:50here as well that have signed up.

11:53And there is of course correspondence attached to the agenda for all of us to see and read.

11:59With that Lindsay,

12:01if you'd like to step on up on behalf of the

12:04city, please

12:05do your presentation whenever you're ready and we'll go from there.

12:13Good evening Mayor Guthrie, members of City Council, staff and members of the public.

12:18I will be presenting the statutory public meeting report for a proposed official plan and zoning by law amendment on lands

12:24municipally known as 105 Elmira Road North

12:27to permit the development of a six-story apartment building with 126 dwelling units on the subject lands.

12:34So this is the statutory public meeting and no decisions will be made on the applications tonight.

12:43The subject lands are located on the north corner of the Elmira Road North and Willow Road intersection.

12:49The subject lands are municipally known as 105 Elmira Road North and are currently vacant.

12:55And as you can see the site is

12:58shown as in the air photo on the screen which is currently vacant and it's approximately

13:049,709 square meters with frontage on both Elmira and Willow Road.

13:13The official plan land use designation that applies to the subject lands is neighborhood commercial center.

13:19This land use designation permits commercial retail and service uses including small-scale offices, community services and facilities,

13:27live work uses as well as multiple unit residential within mixed-use buildings and urban squares.

13:32The neighborhood commercial center land use designation permits a maximum height of six stories and a maximum net residential density of 100 units per hectare.

13:44The applicant is proposing to change the land use designation from the

13:48existing neighborhood commercial center to a medium density residential land use designation.

13:53The applicant is also requesting site specific policy to the medium density residential land use designation to permit a

14:00maximum density of 130 units per hectare

14:02whereas the medium density residential land use designation permits a maximum density of 100 units per hectare.

14:13The comprehensive zoning by-law zones the subject property as neighborhood commercial center with holding provisions.

14:19The neighborhood commercial center permits a range of residential retail office hospitality service and community uses.

14:26The H12 holding provision applies to the lands where the intent is to ensure municipal services are adequate and available prior to the construction of new buildings

14:34and or additional residential development on the lands.

14:37The existing zoning permits a maximum height of six stories a maximum net

14:42residential density of 100 units per hectare and requires a minimum of 0.15

14:48floor space index of commercial floor space.

14:55The purpose of the zoning by-law amendment is to change the zoning from the current neighborhood commercial center zone with holding provisions

15:02to a site specific medium density residential six zone

15:06to facilitate the proposed apartment building.

15:13So there are a number of site specific regulations requested by the applicant to

15:17facilitate the proposal.

15:19So i'm just going to go through them quickly because i believe the applicant is going to be going into more detail with them through their presentation.

15:26So the site specific regulations requested include

15:30to permit a maximum density of 130 units per hectare

15:33whereas the current zone permits a maximum of 100 units per hectare

15:37to permit a minimum front yard setback of 4.3 meters

15:41whereas the current zoning

15:43requires a minimum of six meter front yard setback

15:47to permit a maximum exterior side yard angular plane of 46 degrees

15:51whereas the zoning by-law requires

15:54a maximum of 45 degrees

15:57to permit a maximum interior side yard angular plane of 49 degrees whereas the zoning by-law

16:04permits a maximum of 45 degrees of an angular plane when it's adjacent to an rl one zone

16:10to permit a maximum building length of 79.9 meters

16:14whereas the zoning by-law currently permits a maximum of 75 meters for building within 15 meters of a street

16:21the provision of one active entrance on the street line along a mire road north whereas the zoning by-law requires one active entrance

16:29for every 30 meters of the street line

16:31so in this case two entrances would be required

16:37to amend the definition of active entrance to include sliding patio doors where key access is provided

16:43to provide a minimum common amenity area of 9.1 square meters per unit whereas the zoning by-law requires a minimum of 20 square meters per unit

16:52to permit a minimum landscape open space area of 35 percent whereas

16:58the zoning by-law requires a minimum of 40 percent of the property for landscape open space

17:03and

17:03napkin is requesting a parking rate of 1.14 parking spaces per dwelling unit

17:09they're proposing 144 total parking spaces in total

17:13the zoning by-law currently requires a parking rate of 1.5 spaces per dwelling unit for the first 20 units

17:20plus 1.25 parking spaces per dwelling unit in excess of 20 units

17:24so the total required as per the current by-law would be 163 parking spaces

17:34to permit a minimum visitor parking requirement of

17:375.5 percent of the total parking which they're proposing eight visitor parking spaces

17:42whereas the zoning by-law currently requires a minimum of 20 percent

17:46and

17:47to permit a maximum of 100 percent of the residential residential parking spaces to be provided through surface parking lot

17:53for a lot larger than 9000 square meters

17:57whereas the zoning by-law permits a maximum of surface parking to be 75 percent when the lot is greater than 9000 square meters

18:05and to permit a minimum parking setback of 2.5 meters from a non-habitable room

18:10whereas the zoning by-law requires a minimum of three meters from a habitable room

18:15and to permit a minimum designated electric vehicle parking rate of 79 percent whereas the zoning by-law requires a minimum of 80 percent

18:26so up here on the screen is the proposed site plan

18:29and so as I mentioned before the applicant is proposing to develop the lands

18:33with a six-story apartment building with 126 units

18:37vehicular access is proposed from Willow Road accompanied by a total of 144

18:42surface parking spaces

18:44which would include eight visitor spaces and six accessible spaces

18:47139 bicycle parking spaces are also included

18:52and that's broken down into 126 long-term spaces located indoors

18:56and 13 short-term spaces located outdoors

19:03and so in the presentation materials we have building elevations for the east side

19:10from the north

19:12and I believe the applicant's going to go into some further detail on the building design as well

19:15so I'll just go through these quickly

19:19from the west

19:21and the south

19:26and this is a rendering from Willow Road the southeast corner of the property

19:32and a rendering from Almyra Road north in Willow Road

19:38so the next steps are once the applications have been reviewed and all issues are addressed

19:43a staff recommendation report will be presented to council at a future meeting

19:47so if there is anyone in the audience or at home who would like to be notified of any future revisions or decisions on this application

19:55please email clerks at gulf.ca and provide your full name

19:59and either a mailing address or an email address

20:01so that concludes my presentation if there's any questions now I'd be happy to answer them or later on

20:09yeah, thank you so much for walking us through that

20:11we'll go through the delegations and then you know we'll swing back to you after after that so thank you

20:17the first I've just been told by the clerks that I think the

20:21the first delegations is maybe coming up as a group is that correct? Yeah, okay

20:26and I've been told that Scott Higgins couldn't make it tonight with a family commitment, which is totally reasonable

20:34and are you I'm assuming you're Rachel okay and

20:40is Ashley Crofts here too? Oh by video I see it's by video so the two of you I guess will join us then

20:47one in person one by video

20:50and just so everyone knows it's no more than 10 minutes okay that you have

20:55don't go over the 10 minutes because I don't want to shut off your mic

20:58but we'll shut off your mic you'll get a warning at nine minutes and 30 seconds with a bell

21:03that's your warning and then stick around just in case like whenever you're done

21:09we might have some follow-up questions for you okay if you're a delegate tonight

21:14so if you're if you're doing this as a group then it's 10 minutes for the two of you am I I just want to make sure I'm correct on that

21:20okay so I'm not going to give you 20 no I'm only going to give you the

21:23the 10 all right Rachel you go right ahead thank you for joining us

21:27thank you so through the chair good evening and thank you for joining us tonight for the public meeting on 105

21:32Olmira Road North my name is Rachel Bossy I'm a senior planner with GSP group as noted Scott Higgins sends his regrets this evening

21:39and we do have

21:41Ashley online from ABA group and we have Hugh Handy in the gallery from GSP as well

21:49so tonight's meeting is an opportunity for us to share details about the development and importantly to listen

21:55to the feedback from both the community and council

21:57answer any questions you may have

22:02to support the applications the project team completed various technical studies to ensure that the development is appropriate for the site and

22:08surrounding area

22:10all studies are available on the city's website

22:15so the site is located at 105 Olmira Road North at the corner of Olmira and Willow and Guelph's west end

22:22it's surrounded by low density housing and is well served by sidewalks bike lanes and several transit routes

22:27this the property has been designated and zoned for neighborhood commercial uses since 2002 since the lot was created through a

22:34plan of subdivision

22:35but it has remained vacant

22:38this proposal presents an opportunity to bring much needed purpose built rental housing

22:42to an underutilized vacant site that is close to many amenities such as

22:46three parks a community a city community center a public school

22:51Costco Zares and the West Hills shopping center

22:56so we're proposing a six-story apartment building with 126

23:01purpose built rental units the development will include 144 parking spaces including six accessible and eight visitor

23:08Approximately 20 of the spaces will have ev chargers and the remaining will be ev ready

23:13and parking will be unbundled meaning that tenants have the choice as to whether or not they would like to rent a parking space

23:20so from an active transportation perspective the short-term bicycle parking is located both at the front and the back of the building

23:26And then long-term bicycle parking will be housed inside within two bicycle rooms on the main floor

23:32One near Willow and then one at the rear that's accessed off of the parking

23:37So new water sanitary and storm services are proposed storm water will be managed on site through a private system

23:43And then directed into the municipal system

23:45pre and post development flows are proposed to be balanced

23:50So city staff have already provided a detailed breakdown of the existing and proposed regulations

23:55So I just wanted to highlight that in the neighborhood commercial designation and zone

23:59Only residential units are permitted if they're above the first story and buildings with commercial ground floor uses

24:06So since this proposal does not include commercial uses and official plan and zoning by law amendment are required

24:12So to support this a commercial function study was completed by Tate research

24:16It concluded that the surrounding area already has sufficient commercial uses to meet the neighborhood needs

24:21And that the existing commercial area has

24:24space to accommodate additional commercial uses

24:27to accommodate future growth in the area

24:30And the city has reviewed

24:32Received this study and then it was peer reviewed and the peer reviewer watson and associates has signed off

24:38And I want to note that the current zone permits a maximum of six stories

24:41And there's no change to the maximum height requested through this application

24:45So a full breakdown of the proposed site specific provisions along with the justification is included within the planning justification report available online

24:56So located at a prominent intersection the building was designed to engage both frontages

25:01Articulated facades are proposed to avoid blank walls and to add visual interest

25:06So street accessible units along the willow entrance

25:10Enhance the pedestrian experience and there's large windows facing el mara

25:15Which highlights the indoor amenity space and activates the street and the main entrance is located at the intersection

25:23Features prominently using an architectural detailing to create a clear and welcoming entrance

25:31So vehicular access to the site is provided from willow and this is located more than 100 meters from the intersection to meet the city's safety

25:38Invisibility standard and so there will be a main pedestrian entrance at the corner of el mara and willow

25:45A direct access to individual ground floor units along willow

25:49A pathway from willow to the back of the building and a connection from el mara to the outdoor amenity area

25:54And the ground floor includes residential units indoor amenity space two bike rooms and a mechanical room

26:02So the landscape concept plan includes tree line sidewalks private patios common amenity and buffers to enhance enhanced visual

26:09appeal the existing trees along the east property line will be removed due to site work and or their condition

26:15And new trees are proposed along all property lines with large planting beds

26:19Along the street frontages a new fencing and landscape will screen the parking and outdoor amenity from the street and adjacent properties

26:28So hip and kilomer partnering on this development and hip is a local developer with a strong track record having delivered over

26:352000 apartments in

26:37Repartment units across waterloo region and gulf

26:40They are recognized as leaders in sustainable design and in 2024 completed the region of waterloo's first fully electric high-rise

26:48And kilom is one of canada's largest rental providers

26:52With the nationwide portfolio and commitment to sustainability

26:56So while hip and kilom have collaborated on successful projects over the past 10 years

27:00This will be their first joint project in the city of gulf, which is exciting

27:04So with kilom's extensive experience in managing purpose-built rental developments across canada and hips established credible

27:11Reputation locally this partnership brings a high level of expertise and commitment to quality

27:16And so ownership is extremely eager to begin construction and deliver much needed rental housing to gulf

27:23As quickly as possible

27:26So ownership is committed to providing high quality long-term

27:30Rental housing and gulf and to support this they intend on applying for financing through the cmhc apartment construction loan program

27:37And so this federal program provides low-cost loans to projects that meet strict affordability criteria

27:44energy efficiency and accessibility

27:46So this project will help address the city's critical rental housing shortage and promote affordability

27:52So kilom has a frequent builder status with the cmhc

27:56Which is given to builders that have established a long history of building multi developmental

28:03multi residential units. So this status

28:06expedites approvals of applications and

28:10review of them and

28:12actual funding approvals

28:16So hip and kilom have an established history of delivering premium sustainable developments

28:22So while this project is still at the opa zba stage the goal is to exceed obc requirements for energy efficiency

28:28And to design the roof to accommodate future solar panels

28:31Both partners are committed to exploring meaningful sustainability measures as the project evolves and are excited about the opportunity to integrate innovative solutions

28:40where feasible

28:44so

28:45This site is designed to create high quality

28:48Manatee spaces for tenants to enjoy both indoors and outdoors

28:51And inside the building will have a party room, which will be a flexible space a yoga a fitness area

28:57A games room co-working space a coffee lounge in a family area

29:01And then outside there's proposed to be a dog run and a many detarius and a place places to sit and relax

29:07And these spaces are designed to be flexible inclusive and focused on wellness and community

29:13And every unit will also have its own private

29:17Outdoor amenity space through either a balcony or patio

29:21So with the on-site common and private amenity spaces and the multiple parks and trails and school and city-owned community center nearby

29:28Tenants will have ample ways to integrate with the community and stay active

29:33So here's some pictures from two of

29:37Two projects that hip is completed in kitchens and I just wanted to share those just so you can see

29:41Kind of the the quality of the amenity spaces that they provide within their developments

29:48So as mentioned a family area is proposed in the coffee lounge

29:51And we just wanted to show some pictures of what the family area could look like

29:55And this will be great for tenants with children or children that are visitors to the site

30:02So to summarize this project adds 126 purpose built rental units that will help address the rental housing demands in the city of Guelph

30:09On an underutilized vacant site that is ideally located with convenient access to bus route sidewalks

30:15bike lanes parks trails of school and commercial uses

30:23So thank you for your time tonight and as noted the project architect Ashley is available online

30:29And we would be happy to answer any questions and should anyone want to have more of a one-on-one conversation

30:34I've included my contact information on this slide

30:37So feel free to call an email and then I've also put some business cards just over there on that ledge

30:42For anyone to grab if they would like to to have a discussion

30:45Thank you

30:49Thank you

30:50So just to be clear you didn't get to the 10 minutes, but Ashley is just here to answer questions then. Okay, perfect

30:58um

30:59I have billings and then alt and then kate and and then boost it till okay. We'll go and then come on

31:07perfect

31:09Okay, so thank you. Mr. Mayor um the first question is about the parking

31:14so

31:15We know you're not meeting the parking that's required and then there's also this

31:1925 percent that shouldn't be at level surface

31:22So I was just wondering besides the cost. Is there anything preventing you from constructing some underground

31:30parking on the property

31:37my understanding is that I think cost was the driving factor

31:42And then we were able to look at you know, how much landscape open space and pervasive area and everything from an engineering perspective to support

31:49The proposed parking design and actually I don't know if you have anything to add from an architectural perspective

31:57No, I would just echo that sense

32:00underground parking is extremely expensive

32:03so

32:13So just one second Ashley, um, we have found it very difficult to hear you there. I think

32:20If volume was supposed to be normal you were at like 15 percent

32:24Roughly, I know that's very specific, but that's what it was

32:27um

32:28Is that a thing here in the room to try to turn that up or could you just maybe try your answer again, ashley? But

32:36Speak right into the

32:38laptop

32:39Thank you

32:48Yeah, I think I think you're you're cutting out and having we're having some some difficulty hearing you so

32:54um, why don't we move on to the next question and and and and

32:59Sorry, councillor buildings. You still have the floor. Did you want to continue or do you want me to move on?

33:03Yeah, okay. You go ahead. Okay. So through you mr. Mayor next question is the access to the property

33:09um

33:11So we all know Mitchell woods public schools right there and it's congested at certain times

33:16So what I was wondering is there any reason why the access couldn't be off of el mire?

33:22Or was it city staff that was saying or insisting that it be off of willow?

33:29So through the chair we originally had proposed an access off of el mire, but staff and staff can confirm this

33:35But they have a distance that's required from the intersection. It has to be at least 100 meters

33:40So we were unable to meet that on el mire. So through discussion with the city

33:45That's why the access is proposed in the location off of willow road

33:49Okay, thank you for that next one when I it was just because I couldn't hear when you were um talking about the landscape to buffer

33:58There has been a request for uh fencing that would block out the

34:03vehicular lights. So I was just wondering

34:06Um, are you proposing to put in a fence to do that or or not?

34:12So through the chair, yes, we are and we're going to implement that through site plan

34:16Okay, thanks. Next through you worship. Um in the report it talks about the c m hc financing

34:23And I was just wondering and you touched on it

34:25So is timing an issue with respect to securing these funds for this development?

34:30Meaning do you require whatever approvals sooner rather than later?

34:36So through the chair that is what ownership has indicated is that time is of the essence and they need to get that application in

34:43they are accepting applications now and

34:46So yes time is of the essence and they would like to move forward with this as quickly as possible to secure funding

34:52And getting this opa zba piece is is crucial for that submission

34:57Okay, and then also through your worship again under the c m h c

35:02It talks about and you spoke um accessibility affordability the affordability criteria

35:08And to promote affordability, but does that meet our definition of affordable housing?

35:14And will you have affordable housing units and and then hence asking for waving of um dc's or some of the dc's

35:22So through the chair, so there's multiple criteria that can be met to satisfy affordability under that program

35:30So the one that's proposed is uh 20 percent then they want to exceed this

35:35But the minimum requirement is that 20 of the units be below 30 of the median

35:41Total income of all families in the subject market and that's to be for a minimum of 10 years

35:46So my understanding is that they're looking at exceeding that 20 percent number. That's just a minimum

35:52and um that again

35:54Once we secure these approvals and everything they'll be able to kind of fine tune what exactly that will look like

35:59But it is based on the the median income of the the families in the subject market, which is 12

36:07Okay, thanks for that and then also the density you're requesting 130 units per hectare

36:13Instead of 100 which the 100 is the max density

36:17So I was just wondering is there is there a reason why you just?

36:22Can't build to the to the max density or are you saying it wouldn't become a viable project?

36:30So through the chair, so this results in an extra 29 dwelling units

36:34I think as a planner my focus is looking at you know, where is the housing market at and what can we do on this site that

36:42Is appropriate kind of from all aspects

36:44I think given this site's

36:46Size and the way that it's being designed we want to make sure we can get in as soon as many

36:51Purpose built rental units as possible and we've done in a way that respects the maximum height that's already permitted

36:57And you know the the parking is designed in a way that we're good from an engineering perspective

37:02The landscape is is great

37:04So we think it would be kind of a lost opportunity to lose those 29 units and

37:09The massing of the building and everything we think is pretty in line with what's already permitted

37:14So we just think it would it would be kind of a missed opportunity given where we're at

37:20With housing and the importance of adding purpose built rental

37:23Okay, and then the last question through you worship has to do with

37:28I suppose the justification to reduce the common amenity area by more than half

37:35Are you finding because you're a planner are you finding that gulf is requesting more common amenity area space than other municipalities?

37:44Yes through the chair

37:45So I actually included in the pjr an example of two other cities, which let me just pull the numbers of what they

37:54Require so gulf is the 20 meter squared per dwelling unit, which is is quite high

37:59and then looking at

38:02Toronto and Brampton require four to six meter squared of common amenity per dwelling unit

38:07And then waterloo is three meters squared for the first bedroom and then two meters squared for each additional dwelling unit

38:14or each bedroom my apologies

38:16And then they look at that as like some of that is required to be private some is required to be public

38:21So in this case

38:23Each unit will have its own balcony or patio that kind of offsets and again given that there's

38:30So much it's a very very amenity rich area. It was very important to

38:35ownership

38:36When looking at designing this project of making high quality spaces that will be utilized not just

38:41You know putting putting more and building more and then they're not used

38:44So we had a lot of conversations about their many developments with hip kind of

38:50In waterloo region and gulf as well as kill them kind of all over

38:54As to what what are people actually using and what is the demand and that's where we were really focused on creating high quality spaces that will be

39:02Functional for for tenants, you know regardless of their background or how long they live on the site and that was the main objective

39:10Okay, well, thank you for that. And that's all your worship

39:14Thank you. Uh, alt and then kate

39:17Thank you very much. Mayor Guthrie

39:19Through you to the delegate

39:21First of all, um, my compliments on the energy initiatives that you have discussed and presented here. I think that's

39:30Um, something to me that is incredibly important

39:34But i'm i'm somewhat guarded in asking this question. It follows on

39:40Councillor billings, perhaps I should have met with you ahead of time to get some idea of this

39:46You had mentioned that time is for all intents and purposes of the essence

39:51We currently have more than 5700 units approved in guelph

39:56Are we talking about time to get an application in or are we expecting construction to begin upon approval?

40:04Through the chair construction to begin immediately. I know there's a lot of approved units

40:08But I don't know how many shovels you have in the ground and they're looking at getting shovels in the ground

40:13Immediately and getting these units to market as soon as possible. Okay. Thank you very much

40:18Um, an odd question from me. You have 79 percent

40:25EV chargers as opposed to 80 percent. I think it is

40:30Why the nuance? I mean, I really don't care, but it just struck me as odd

40:34So through the chair, what it is is that we have a higher percent that actually have an ev charger

40:40Just because of the way that the numbers fell and then there's so there's one less that's ev ready

40:45So we actually have an extra parking space that has a charger than what's required

40:49So it's nuanced in the sense that the bylaw says you need the minimum of 80

40:53To be ev ready in the minimum of 20 to have the ev chargers

40:57But we have like 20.68 percent that have the chargers and that puts us

41:02Just below the this the 80 percent

41:05But it is a positive thing because you actually have more chargers on the side of who's counting. Okay

41:10The the next question I will ask this of staff

41:13I'm extremely concerned at that particular intersection about about traffic

41:19And I will certainly ask staff about traffic studies in that area

41:23Because of the nature of the area with a school and with Elmira being essentially a thoroughfare

41:30Out to the industrial area how much consideration has gone into the traffic that will

41:38Come and go at peak times

41:42So was that a question for for you? I will ask the same of staff. Okay, perfect. Bring it up in some form

41:48Okay, so in terms of let me just

41:53Okay, so the new development

41:55We completed a traffic study that was submitted as part of this and essentially it's predicted to generate about

42:0244 vehicle trips in the morning and 49 in the afternoon during peak hours on a typical weekday

42:09So according to the city of Guelph's guidelines a transportation impact study is only required if a development generates more than 100 new trips

42:17During peak hours the census project fell well below that threshold a full study was not needed

42:21So we had consultation with city staff and they confirmed that yes that that our

42:28Assessment that all made sense and that that was the the requirement

42:32Okay, the the last question and it's it's somewhat leading and

42:37I hope you don't infer anything but from it but with the growth of student population in Guelph

42:43Is there an expectation that we will be catering to a student population in that area?

42:48So through the chair well, they can't preclude who rents that it's that would be people's owning

42:54I think the target market has been

42:57You know more families or single people like it's such a wide variety in their other buildings

43:01I don't think it's not intended to cater to students could a student live there potentially

43:05But that's not

43:07What the building is designed who the building is designed for

43:11And thank you for that. I get all that. I just have to ask the question

43:16My math is horrible

43:18When we were talking about 20 percent below market value

43:22I don't recall what market value is but I think it's about $3,000 for a three-bedroom unit right now

43:29Is that correct and what would we be looking at for a for those below market value?

43:34Rentals so through the chair is my understanding that it's based on I think statistics Canada

43:40So again, we have to secure approvals and understand the timing

43:43Of development to be able to see where that number is going to be at the time of development

43:48but it will be looked at

43:50And yes that whatever that number is they're they're targeting to exceed

43:55The 20 percent and again, I don't know the ratio it all depends on if the financing is secured the timing of approvals and if

44:01If the development is approved as requested because any little tweak has obviously a domino effect

44:06So I can't comment on on what that will be but the criteria is that 20 percent

44:13And is the 30 percent of the median income of the area. So I realized I do have one last

44:19That was sorry that was related to

44:22Hydrology in the particular area you'd made reference to

44:25Wastewater I believe in storm water being handled

44:29Independently on property and then going into the city system

44:33Because that area essentially is a sponge

44:36Can you can you comment any further on that?

44:38That that is a concern I believe

44:42Let me just pull my notes on that

44:46So we did do a hydro g study that measured

44:51Kind of the the water elevations and we were able to capture the spring high

44:57And they're going to be doing an infiltration gallery and that was reviewed against the hydro g

45:03And it all matches and they were able to determine that that will

45:06Work and be appropriate and also the site was originally designed through a subdivision engineering may have a

45:12Comment on that but we had to look at what was approved through that 2002 subdivision to make sure that everything aligned and the engineers were able to do that

45:22Thank you very much

45:24Thank you, uh, kate and then boost still

45:28Thank you through you mr. Mayor

45:30uh to the delegates

45:33I'm just wondering about the

45:35lack of commercial

45:37so especially since uh, you're requesting less parking

45:41and uh, I see that you've done the the commercial study to be 10 minutes walkable, but um

45:48Because apartments are some of the only accessible options

45:51There's more likely to have folks in there who are not necessarily

45:56Able bodied and have their 10 minutes or is going to be different than your 10 minutes

46:01So is there has there any consideration of having a smaller commercial option in the base of the building?

46:08So through the chair, I know that ownership kind of explored all options and you know at one point that was on the table

46:15But they again, I'm a planner

46:17So I look at things more from a lane use perspective, but they were able to look at it kind of from a viability perspective and determine that

46:23That didn't make sense. So also to add a bit of context

46:27There's kind of like a industry standard of like the appropriate level of commercial kind of per

46:33Square feet per capita and in the area of right now

46:36We currently have 61 square feet of commercial space

46:40Within a hundred or 800 meters of the site and this industry standard is kind of 45

46:45Feet per capita and even with this development and there's a couple other vacant sites that we looked at

46:51Those developing as well. It's going to land at about 73 square meters per capita because there is vacant commercial

46:57Um available like within that area. So we we did look at it

47:01but the importance of commercial is that it's kind of spread out to serve the community and

47:07There's an area at paisley that also has commercial. So while it was reviewed given the abundance of commercial in this area

47:14um from at least a planning perspective, I think the site is better served to have

47:20rental units

47:21and

47:22It's remained vacant as a neighborhood commercial since 2002 where everything else developed around it

47:27So I think there was that struggle to establish that neighborhood commercial on the site

47:33Thank you. Um

47:35What's your breakdown of bachelor one bedroom two bedrooms three bedroom apartments?

47:40So through the chair at this point and actually correct me if I'm wrong, but we have 82 one bedrooms, which is

47:4765 percent and then 44 two bedrooms, which is 35 percent. That's the current breakdown

47:54Okay, so no three bedrooms at all

47:57That's correct. Um, can I make just a comment? Um, you might have better use of family space if you have

48:07family apartments

48:10Thank you. Thank you. Councillor. Kate and uh, busatil then karan

48:17Thank you and uh through the mayor, um, I had a similar question to

48:22Kate and about the one and two bedrooms

48:25You made reference to much needed rental

48:29And subject market. Can you speak to who you're targeting there because I have similar concerns to councillor kateon

48:35Knowing families in that area that are looking for

48:39Rental, uh, it's three bedrooms that they're looking for

48:43Family of four that need three bedroom. Can you comment on that?

48:47so

48:47Through the chair, I wasn't part of kind of the market analysis of in terms of the size of the building or the units to say

48:56But essentially, I know they're targeting potentially people that are looking for a place

49:01Well, they potentially buy in the future or potentially people who are new to the area and are looking for a place to live

49:08Could be singles could be young couples could be older couples could be

49:13You know really anybody could be families

49:15So I think it's open for for whoever would would need it and

49:21Hopefully that answers your question

49:23No, not really, but if you know, I can take advantage of what councillor

49:28Kateon did, you know, I would like to see the family of four get out of a garage living in a garage in the neighborhood

49:34And so I think three bedroom in that kind of market research might be something for your consideration

49:39And looking at really meeting the needs of the families and retaining that neighborhood kind of

49:44Feel in there. So that's a comment that I'd like to make

49:47About the one and two bedrooms. Um, the other thing is in your map, you you know, similar to

49:53councillor

49:55Kateon about the commercial the 10 minute walking when I look at the building

49:59Within the 10 minute walking, there's the west end community center and I really question

50:04You know a yoga studio and uh, you know, all those other kinds of amenities that to me would you know,

50:10I'd love to have more three bedroom housing for families

50:14And and using the amenities there. It seems as though the argument for no neighborhood commercial within the 10 minute walking

50:22Is okay to have amenities. What did you call it? I think it was um amenity rich area in the building

50:29But also around the surrounding. So just a question about why that logic wasn't applied in the same way

50:37Sorry to clarify you're asking why the logic of

50:41Of the why we propose the yeah about putting amenities in the building rather than drawing on the public

50:47Amenities that are also within that 10 minute walking area

50:50So you're saying that we don't need a neighborhood commercial because there's lots in that 10 minute

50:55But the flip side of it is well, you know, we're going to have a yoga studio and

51:00Corner for kids and all these other kinds of things and yet within that 10 minute walking area

51:06There are all these amenities

51:09So through the chair, that's a great comparison that you've drawn

51:12I think the difference is is that tenants like to have some amenities in their building

51:17So when they get home after work, they can you know, go to the gym on site

51:21We wanted to strike that balance of not over providing

51:25The city of wealth again requires that 20 meter squared per unit

51:29So we wanted to draw on the existing and surrounding amenities as well as you know, knowing that you know

51:34The community center has such a wide variety that there can be like sewing there can be swimming there can be such a

51:41You know great array of amenities

51:43But we also wanted to make sure the onsite that the tenants had

51:47Access, you know to a party room or a gym and things from from a convenience perspective

51:54That was important when looking at the development

51:57Thank you, and I know you

52:00Use the term amenity rich area. Can you expand a bit? Are you speaking about parkland? Is that what you're speaking about?

52:06So through the chair speaking about public parks

52:10The community center walking trails. There's so many opportunities for residents in the area to go

52:17For a walk or hit multiple parks even so we wanted to again draw on those

52:23options for people to be able to integrate with the community and use those existing services

52:29while also again providing

52:31Some convenience things on site for tenants to to use and build a community onsite

52:37Thank you

52:38Thank you and karan, please

52:42Aaron, I think most of my questions have been addressed. Um, but one of the things that I always ask

52:50Um, when we have a development that has, you know topographical limitations or it has large trees that we want to save

52:59There's lots of site specific variances

53:02That are allowed in order to achieve greater objectives

53:07This is a flat site

53:09It's been developed. I don't see a lot of there. There's no trees interior that need to be removed or saved

53:15So I guess it's a general question about why you can't meet the zoning requirements

53:21Of a piece of property like this at the medium residential level and I think you have

53:27Um addressed a few things that gives addressed

53:31amenity space

53:33You've addressed, you know some parking and you know some of those things

53:39What about things like setback and and and height because I'm not seeing why those

53:45Um, why those setbacks can't be met and I believe you you did answer that it allows you

53:5129 more units

53:53Is that is that the only reason why the general provisions that the zoning bylaw cannot be met

54:01So through the chair, yes, so in terms of yet the density that gets us the extra 29 units

54:06We already discussed that so we've reduced the front yard setback from six to four point

54:11Three meters so in the existing zone, let me just pull up with the actual setback required is I believe it's four point

54:19Oh, yeah, so the minimum front yard setback is actually three meters in the current zone and we're proposing

54:254.3 we wanted to create an environment that kind of activates the street and has a street presence

54:32So through that

54:344.3 meter setback and then the glass that will show the amenity

54:38We feel like that has a good street presence that kind of

54:41Has the spirit of the neighborhood commercial

54:43But we're using that for the residential

54:45So that was kind of the main reason why we did that and then in terms of we have some slight variations for the angular planes

54:51Those are predominantly to account for the the parapet because that's included in the angular plane and then

54:58So for the interior side yard

55:00It's the parapet and then a tiny bit of the the sixth story

55:04But there's no balconies or extra things that have been added as a result of that increase in the angular plane

55:10and then the same thing for the angular plane on

55:13The exterior side yard is to accommodate the parapet and those have kind of minor impacts

55:19and then in terms of the building length

55:21we're

55:22Less than five meters above the the maximum building length and due to this the shape of the site and the way we're trying to

55:28Kind of integrate with both streets

55:30That was a minor adjustment as well and where it's measured is kind of adds a bit of length

55:35And then in terms of the active entrances

55:38The definition that we're adjusting we are proposing the

55:42Units on willow to have that street access

55:45And so we're proposing to amend that definition because it doesn't include sliding doors with the reason being that they

55:50Those are typically locked from inside

55:52But we're proposing key access and we think that that's going to be a great feature that puts kind of more eyes on the street

55:57Integrates the development better with the the community and will be very convenient for those

56:02Properties and then on almyra we've reduced it to one which we're putting the common amenity and have you know the large glass

56:09I think that will will be really nice along there

56:12And then we talked about the common amenity and then the landscaped open space in the current zone

56:16We're only required to have 20 percent and then the proposed zones 40

56:20So we're proposing 35 percent which is supported by

56:24Engineers that there's enough impervious impervious area and we have landscaping that we think is appropriate and going to screen adjacent

56:32uses and then we talked about the parking I think a little bit already as well

56:38and

56:40I think other than that

56:41Yeah, we talked about the underground parking

56:44And then there is a provision that the city requires

56:47Three meters set back from parking to the building and we're proposing 2.5 to a non habitable just the bike room

56:54So there'll be sufficient space and no one's sleeping in there. So any concerns of light? So hopefully that

57:02Helps you to understand the reasons why we're we're asking for the site specific provisions that we are

57:07And I think overall we're meeting the general spirit of that that zone with some slight tweaks

57:14Thank you. That really does help because you know, usually when you have a wide open site like that

57:19It's it's easier to meet the regulations unless there's there's ultimate reasons. So you think you've given us a good outline

57:26I want to dig a little bit more into your

57:29environmental

57:30Mitigations to help us reach reach our net zero goals

57:34I really appreciate that this is purpose-built rental

57:38And one of the things we know is that

57:41monthly utility costs are

57:43part of the affordability factor

57:45Is this building going to be carbon neutral?

57:49and if you could

57:51I notice in the the development file on online the community energy letter isn't there yet

57:58I'm I believe that that's in the next phase

58:02Before this comes back to council

58:04and just want to make sure that the community energy letter that comes with the next phase is going to be a little meatier than

58:13LED light bulbs and low flush toilets

58:17Ashley did you want to provide some commentary on this?

58:22Sure. I've switched my headphones here. Can you guys hear me better? Yes

58:26Wonderful. Okay. Yes, we can. Thank you for doing that. That's great

58:31I'm so glad. Okay. Um, so on the sustainability initiatives. I mean, I'm not going to touch on things like low flush toilets

58:39But the idea is that this is going to be a fully electric building

58:43That is what we're looking at in terms of the electrical mechanical systems

58:48And we're keeping that top of mind because we really do want to exceed those targets for energy and greenhouse gas reductions

58:56Beyond the sp10 o bc requirements

58:59Um, so this is going to be in keeping with you know, what hip has done and killum has done on other projects

59:05um, mechanically

59:07The systems that we're looking at are electric hot water heaters and air support source

59:12pumps

59:14and we're looking at

59:17Providing for you know, the future solar on the rooftop. There's a lot of the drope tolerant landscaping

59:24The low impact storm water management techniques

59:27We have the infiltration gallery accommodated for we're meeting the bike requirement

59:34We're you know, we've done this building before a similar typology of this before

59:40So we're able to take the lessons that we've learned and really apply them moving forward

59:44We're just becoming very expert at the details and the energy efficiency of the building envelope itself

59:51Um, so I think that's worth noting as well

59:55Yeah, thank you that um, I see this being a model for this mid-rise form

59:59So I really appreciate that and there was reference in this in some of the changes to variances to angular plane

1:00:07Being a result of parapets. I'm assuming that the rooftop parapet is to to um screen those mechanicals

1:00:14and then the follow-up question to that is whether there would be any um

1:00:19cell towers or other

1:00:21Other things on the roof that may change the height of the building

1:00:29I could jump in on this one too. Um, so from a building height perspective

1:00:34The parapet we've actually reduced to 600 millimeters, which is typically the lowest will go

1:00:41Generally from a construction detailing

1:00:44perspective

1:00:45So we did reduce that as much as we can

1:00:48Um to have as minimal impact on the proposed angular plane as possible

1:00:53um

1:00:54That isn't meant to screen mechanical system

1:00:58The idea is the mechanical systems will be enclosed in the mechanical penthouse

1:01:02And that's set back from the building perimeter. So it doesn't actually impact the the angular plane

1:01:08That stays clear. Yeah

1:01:13Hey, thanks so much

1:01:16Just to add as well, I spoke with hip developments kind of on the sustainability and they've

1:01:22Made it very clear. They're very open technologies evolving and that especially right now with the opa zed b stage every little factor

1:01:29And thing that's changed can kind of have a bigger impact on the project. So once we lock that in they're excited to go to work and

1:01:38you know determine what options they have and

1:01:41Regarding sustainability and yet they're very eager and um are excited about this development. So just wanted to also add that in

1:01:50Thank you so much

1:01:52So I don't have any further questions

1:01:55From my council colleagues, um

1:01:59Other than maybe just for me just to close it up on our end is

1:02:04Have you read the correspondence all the correspondence that was from like some of the neighboring

1:02:09Properties and the neighbors in the area. Have you taken a look at that yet?

1:02:13So through the chair, yes, I have and we've been in contact with one neighbor

1:02:18There was a comment about

1:02:19The trees and the condition of them and they were hoping we could remove them sooner rather than later

1:02:24So we've reached out to rory to discuss that process of potentially removing those early

1:02:30And then there was a comment about the fencing and we're going to propose new fencing

1:02:35Um, I think those were then there was a lot of other comments just about kind of some of the things we already touched on earlier

1:02:41Yeah, my colleagues have already

1:02:43asked a lot of those

1:02:46landscaping

1:02:47fencing

1:02:50Parking lot like lights and stuff like that

1:02:54To make sure like if there's fins on them. I know that's all that's site plan

1:02:58but the these little things matter

1:03:01To the neighbors and like none of us here want to get a complaint

1:03:06So if if this stuff can be if the stuff that's in the correspondence

1:03:11Can be looked at we I think we'd all appreciate that

1:03:14from a perspective of seeing if you can it's doable

1:03:20And uh

1:03:22Finally, I would just I just I just want to echo what counselor karan just said like this

1:03:27If this you know if this moves ahead the way it is

1:03:30And there is opportunities from an environmental and sustainability perspective

1:03:35Um, I do know that hip developments does this stuff. I I do know that they're authentic and trying to help with with this stuff

1:03:41I know that

1:03:43um

1:03:44But if like this could be like almost like a mentorship like a showcase type of uh development

1:03:50That can show what can be done for others in the city. I think that's uh

1:03:55Aspirational goal that I think hip and and and the partner could look at

1:04:00Especially because the site

1:04:03Is like a clean slate, right? So it really is an opportunity to to do those things

1:04:08So it's just an encouragement comment from me

1:04:11Um to the developer on this

1:04:14Um, okay. Well, I think everything else my colleagues already asked on my behalf

1:04:19So um and on behalf of the people that wrote in so thank you very much

1:04:23Appreciate your delegation and we'll continue to move on with the delegates that I've signed up here

1:04:29Uh, is brian bender here it says in person is brian here?

1:04:32Okay. Hi brian

1:04:34Yeah, come on down. Feel free to come down

1:04:37And uh, then michael uh sandor is going to join us next by by video

1:04:42And thanks for waiting brian. Thank you. And uh, so you probably heard me earlier

1:04:47You have no more than 10 minutes if you need it. You'll hear a chime at the nine minutes 30 second mark

1:04:52To give you a warning and then the floor opens up at 10 10 minutes here. You're done

1:04:56So please don't get there and just stick around afterwards just in case there's any questions as a follow-up. Okay

1:05:02So over to you go right ahead

1:05:04Hey, well, um

1:05:06I know this sounds like a not in my backyard type thing, but this literally is right in my backyard

1:05:12I live on flaherty drive and my

1:05:15backyard borders on this proposed

1:05:19Uh apartment building

1:05:21I've got a few issues obviously it's been zoned

1:05:26For a six story for as long as I've been there. So that's a moot point for me. Um

1:05:33but

1:05:34Uh, I do have a few issues in the fact that we

1:05:39The

1:05:40Presentation that was just done

1:05:42Very nice presentation very professional

1:05:45The first thing the young lady said was that

1:05:50This project was designed to fit onto the property

1:05:54Well, it seems if you need that many amendments

1:05:58It wasn't designed to fit on the property

1:06:02You've got how many different things that they want to change just so they can fit

1:06:08More units on this this property

1:06:12Uh, I know when we built our house

1:06:15We had a few now granted this going back 30 years, but when we built our house

1:06:20We had a few things that we wanted to get changed and

1:06:24We weren't allowed to do it

1:06:26And I realized that I'm just a homeowner. I'm not a multi-million dollar company

1:06:35But it seems that if the bylaws are there they're there for a reason

1:06:41and

1:06:43amendments

1:06:44Especially this many

1:06:46Should not be granted

1:06:49The other issue that I have is I know there was a traffic study done on the effects of

1:06:56How things are going to be on elmira road and how things are going to be on willow road

1:07:02Now, I don't know if you

1:07:04Know how flarity drive runs, but flarity drive runs

1:07:09from

1:07:10Elmira to willow

1:07:13And already in the morning

1:07:16Or sorry in the afternoon or in the morning. We have people

1:07:19Coming up willow hanging a right on flarity and going up that street to get onto imperial onto elmira

1:07:27now with the

1:07:30Entrance to this particular

1:07:33building going to be on

1:07:36Willow road between flarity and elmira

1:07:40There's going to be cars coming down flarity drive turning left onto flarity and coming around so they don't have to stop

1:07:48at the stop light

1:07:50at the corner of willow and elmira and hang a left

1:07:54especially at

1:07:563 30 to 5 o'clock

1:07:58when all the linimar plants are getting out

1:08:01And that road is just chaos. So any there's going to be an increased amount of traffic on flarity drive

1:08:10Now, I don't know if you know

1:08:13The layout of flarity drive. I know you do cam

1:08:16but

1:08:17there's a hill there

1:08:19and

1:08:20It's only supposed to be 40 kilometers an hour on there

1:08:24I know because I live at the bottom of that hill

1:08:27That there are cars coming down there in excess of 60 kilometers an hour

1:08:32closer to 70 by the time they hit their brakes

1:08:36And if we're going to be adding more traffic to that road, which this will

1:08:42That I see that as being a problem

1:08:45Now years ago again when my kids were little I

1:08:48petitioned to have traffic calming measures put in on flarity drive and

1:08:54Obviously it didn't go through because they're not there

1:08:59But this is uh, this is a safety issue because our

1:09:05Our

1:09:06neighborhood is transitioning

1:09:08you know

1:09:10most of the uh, most of the

1:09:12Original owners there have been in our homes 30 years

1:09:17We're starting to retire. We're starting to sell and we're selling to

1:09:21young families

1:09:24And these young families obviously have little kids

1:09:27And they're going to be walking out onto flarity drive with cars coming more traffic coming down that road

1:09:33At excessive speeds

1:09:36There's potential there for for catastrophic

1:09:41Consequences

1:09:43Um

1:09:47obviously

1:09:49From a privacy standpoint, I'm opposed to this, you know, if I'm out in my backyard

1:09:57Hanging out in my speedo getting a suntan

1:10:00I don't necessarily need uh six stories worth of people

1:10:05Gawking at me and I'm pretty sure they don't want to gawk at me, but uh

1:10:09You don't even need one story for that. No, so

1:10:13Uh

1:10:15There is issues and and along with that

1:10:18I'm not going to lie. It's a it's a monetary issue too because that's going to affect the property values of all the people that border on that

1:10:26on that property

1:10:29Uh

1:10:31And

1:10:32again

1:10:34it's

1:10:35You know, I know I'm thinking I'm know I'm thinking with my wallet, but

1:10:43Nobody can make the argument that this development isn't thinking with their wallet

1:10:47by needing an extra 30 units

1:10:50and

1:10:51not having

1:10:53So their whole point is that they need these amendments so they can have more units so they can make more money

1:11:01That's my thinking on it

1:11:03um

1:11:05the other thing that

1:11:07I'd like to know is

1:11:09What is going they they gave percentages of this that and the other thing of how much these

1:11:15Uh the value of these apartments are going to be but what exactly are they planning?

1:11:20What is the minimum they are going to charge per unit?

1:11:24because

1:11:25In the presentation they brought in that this is to address the affordable

1:11:30Housing in the city

1:11:32Well, if a one bedroom apartment is going to be $2,300 it's not affordable

1:11:37If a two bedroom apartment is going to be $3,200 that's not affordable

1:11:43And to be honest with you, I don't think you can actually build brand new affordable housing

1:11:50with the

1:11:53Amount you have to

1:11:54pay for materials for labor for anything like that your break even point on a

1:12:00On a one bedroom apartment

1:12:02And they can correct me if i'm wrong, but it's got to be over $2,000 for a break even point

1:12:09And I just don't see how this is addressing

1:12:15Affordable housing

1:12:17That's all I've got. Um, these are my concerns

1:12:20Uh, I hope you'll take them into consideration

1:12:25And thank you for your time. Thank you, Brian. Appreciate it

1:12:29Oh, I sort of maybe mentioned this at the beat. We just don't allow allow that. Okay, so

1:12:40I let it go but

1:12:42You know

1:12:43It's okay. At least you didn't come in down in a speedo. So don't don't do that. Okay

1:12:48Um, thank you. Um, now look, uh, councillor busitil you had your hand up but our delegate went back to the seat

1:12:56Did you have a follow-up question?

1:12:59Yes, I did. Sorry, Brian

1:13:01Um, the first one's easy. Did you really use a commodore vick to type up your

1:13:06delegation?

1:13:08I think that's dating you. Yes. No, I did not and uh,

1:13:12Yes, it is dating. I had a question

1:13:14You didn't comment at all on the neighborhood commercial the original kind of intent there around neighborhood commercial

1:13:22Is that something that?

1:13:24You're going to miss it's not something that you're going to miss

1:13:28In the neighborhood and then I have a follow-up. Well

1:13:31Originally, my understanding was that the zoning was for a neighborhood commercial

1:13:37one level but in

1:13:40listening to the presentation

1:13:43I I'm under the

1:13:45conclusion that uh, it has always been zoned for at least the six-story building. So

1:13:50That's what I said originally the kind of a moot point for me because that's always the height has always been

1:13:58um

1:13:59The height has always been there and I thought it was just a one-story commercial

1:14:04Nice. Thanks. And my second question is um about parking

1:14:08In the area on street parking

1:14:11Um, I happened to have been the trustee for Mitchell Woods for 16 years. So I know the

1:14:18Parking car issues around that school even today you can't come out of the parking lot and make a left

1:14:24You must make a right because of the issues of

1:14:27Of traffic and accidents and so on. Um, what about on street parking? Do you find I know bond and so on, you know

1:14:35On street parking. Can you comment on that?

1:14:38well, we um

1:14:42We don't have too much on street parking on

1:14:46Flaherty Drive. There isn't a whole lot of people that that do park there overnight at

1:14:52at this time

1:14:54More so in the summertime. Yeah, because people

1:14:57Park their boats or trailers or something on their their uh,

1:15:01Driveway and then they don't have enough room. So they park on the street

1:15:06however

1:15:07with the there is no parking on almyra or

1:15:12um, uh willow and

1:15:18If there's visitors at this particular

1:15:22uh apartment building

1:15:24The nearest place that they are going to have to park is going to be on flaherty drive or

1:15:30I guess willow to the west of

1:15:35almyra

1:15:37And I know that that play that's always full that parking there is always full

1:15:41So it will it will increase the parking on flaherty drive

1:15:48and

1:15:50If you have two vehicles on

1:15:53Flaherty on opposite sides

1:15:57Uh, it can make it pretty tough to get through there for

1:16:02larger vehicles such as a

1:16:05Fire truck if ever needs to get through

1:16:08um

1:16:10So that's another issue that would need to be resolved. I think

1:16:15Thank you very much. Thanks

1:16:18Okay, you can sit down for real this time. Thank you very much

1:16:22Uh, michael sandor is going to join us now by video

1:16:27Michael and wondering if you can hear me. It's america 3

1:16:40Yes, michael. It's uh, it's cam. Thank you very much for joining us and uh

1:16:44Is is this your presentation that you're going to go through with us? That is correct

1:16:48Okay, uh, perfect. Thank you for joining us so we can hear you fine. We see your presentation here too and uh,

1:16:54You have no more than 10 minutes. Okay, so go right ahead

1:16:57Thank you, mr. Mayor and council for providing me this opportunity

1:17:01To speak to you about the traffic impact

1:17:04On willow road from this development. My name is michael sandor. I'm a property owner on bonnar place

1:17:11Which is in the area of the proposed development on uh,

1:17:14105 almyra road

1:17:16Just so you know, I do strongly support the use of this vacant lot for medium density

1:17:22However, my concern is the impact of 126 new residences on existing congestion on willow road

1:17:30And in the area in general

1:17:32You were talking, you know throughout the evening about commercial if any commercial is introduced now or in the future

1:17:38I mean, who knows what's going to happen to those main floor units in the future. Uh, this will simply exasperate

1:17:44uh, existing traffic issues

1:17:47Next slide, please

1:17:55So my agenda for the time a lot of it is as follows. I wanted to clarify an error on my original submission

1:18:02I'm suggesting moving the vehicular

1:18:04Entrance way to the northwest corner of the development, which was the original plan, of course

1:18:09Not the northeast corner as stated in my initial submission. So I apologize for any, uh

1:18:15confusion that may have caused

1:18:18I also wanted to point out that existing

1:18:20Congestion issues on willow road at rush hours and my concerns regarding traffic impact from the development

1:18:27I'll also provide some suggestions on how I feel this may be mitigated

1:18:31And next slide, please

1:18:35So you're all familiar with the area in listening to you talk about it

1:18:38But just to review a couple things the map shows the area at the intersection of almyra and willow

1:18:43Between imperial and almyra roads. So that chunk of willow road that snakes through the middle of the map

1:18:49As mentioned, I'm proposing that the vehicular entry point to the development be moved to the northwest corner

1:18:56Of almyra road 105 almyra road and you can see this is a red rectangle on your screen

1:19:01Not the northeast corner is stated in my original submission

1:19:06the

1:19:08proposed entry point vehicular entry point by the developer is the black rectangle

1:19:13And you can see that it's very close in very close proximity to the beginning of the mitchell wood school zone

1:19:18Shown by a red bar as well. There's two gwell transit bus stops right there

1:19:23Can be cornered and cross the street

1:19:25And you can see mitchell woods, of course in the upper part of the map

1:19:30Near the center of the map

1:19:31There's already a lot going on in this relatively small area between imperial and almyra roads

1:19:38And it's all very also all already very challenging navigating traffic at school rush hour times, you know, brian attested to that in the early

1:19:47Delegate

1:19:48So the proposed 126 unit development will have an impact on willow road traffic

1:19:54And that's what I wanted to address tonight

1:19:57Next slide, please

1:20:05So willow road is already very congested with pedestrians and parents dropping off their children during morning and afternoon rush hours

1:20:12During this time the parents kiss and ride will extend all the way from imperial road to almyra road that whole street

1:20:18Is just literally covered with cars

1:20:21And the only way to describe parking in this area and brian mentioned that as well is is contentious at best

1:20:26I've seen lots of stuff go on

1:20:28I've lived there since 95 and and when they opened up that school and all the associating parking problems

1:20:34I think we've seen it all

1:20:36But as you saw on the map the developments is very close to mitchell wood school zone is just literally just down the street

1:20:43And of course two well transit bus stops

1:20:47The illegal parking by parents dropping off and picking up children blocks bike lanes

1:20:52Is no way you can ride a bike up that road those times of days and it forces cyclists on to busy willow road

1:20:58Access to the intersections of willow bonnar and flarety drive can already be very challenging and dangerous

1:21:04During those peak times

1:21:06To note there is an existing on-demand traffic light at the intersection of willow and bonnar place

1:21:12That allows control crossing for pedestrian traffic. So that's very effective. It's very effective of managing the pedestrian traffic across

1:21:20across billy busy willow road

1:21:23And you know the proposed mix of one and two bedrooms

1:21:27Appears to cater to a younger more transient demographic

1:21:30It's my understanding

1:21:32And I don't have facts and figures on this but it's my understanding that this demographic tends to drive more aggressively and less cautiously

1:21:39I suggest a toxic mix in an already congested school area will arise

1:21:45Next slide please

1:21:48So summary of concerns the existing traffic study that was completed very extensive and very detailed

1:21:55But it doesn't consider the proximity to the mitchell wood school zone. I didn't see it once in the study

1:22:00Or the traffic impact on willow road from the additional 126 additional residences being proposed

1:22:07Respecting the 100 meter requirement

1:22:10Uh at the intersection of willow and omira

1:22:15And the question is does this override the associated traffic safety risks on willow road that'll arise from this development?

1:22:21such as

1:22:23Parents and their children uh that are being dropped off and picked up

1:22:27Pedestrians getting on off the bus or just pedestrians in general cyclists

1:22:31With all those cars parked on on willow road at that time of day

1:22:36It's almost impossible

1:22:38To see you know to get out of your driveway for example or see people trying to get across the road

1:22:43It's complete mayhem

1:22:45And of course the impact on existing traffic on willow road and the proximity to

1:22:50Mitchell woods public school brian

1:22:52Brought that up as well

1:22:55Next slide please

1:22:57So as described i'm asking that the vehicle vehicular entry point to the development site be moved to the northwest corner

1:23:05I feel that this would dramatically reduce the impact of traffic on the school zone from the development and also the associated congestion on willow road

1:23:13I'm suggesting the installation of some control like an on-demand traffic light or similar control on elmira road

1:23:20respecting the 100 uh meter uh

1:23:24Bylaw, but i'm sure there's you know, what's more important?

1:23:28Some poor kid getting hit by a car or getting around that that rule

1:23:33I'm not a traffic engineer

1:23:34So I can't speak to any depth or certainty to a solution other than some sort of control

1:23:39Would provide safe access to elmira road for the 126 residents that are being added and as well

1:23:46Just will isolate the traffic from congested willow road

1:23:50This would also help to calm traffic on elmira road and and I

1:23:55You know what brian said, which is fraught with speeders both north and southbound as they stream in and out of cost phones

1:24:01There's he mentioned 60 climb. I've seen people come down that hill to 80 kilometers an hour easy

1:24:08So next slide please

1:24:13So to wrap up, um

1:24:18Are there any thoughts questions or can concerning this issue at all?

1:24:28Sorry, are you asking us that question? Yeah, any any?

1:24:32Thoughts or comments mr. Mayor?

1:24:35Oh, okay. I just before yeah, no problem before we go for the confusion

1:24:40No, just just just before we go there. I just want to make sure like are you done your your presentation?

1:24:44I just want to make sure that you're you're not being cut off. No, I am done

1:24:48Okay, I'm so sorry. I just misunderstood. I just we were kind of all waiting for you there. We wondered what was going on

1:24:53So thank you for clarifying that

1:24:55um

1:24:56What what will happen now is we will see if there's any questions directly to you

1:25:00And then what we've heard in your delegation if a member of council or even myself

1:25:05Wants to remember those write them down whatever we can on your behalf ask our staff here tonight

1:25:12Or ask after before any type of recommendation comes back

1:25:15But let me go to councillor busitil who has a question for you. Okay

1:25:19Thank you for the delegation michael

1:25:21I just have a question about your entrance proposal

1:25:25My recollection is on elmira road right where the houses are there is on street parking there

1:25:31And then I think there's a line and then the cars go by

1:25:34Is that correct? So there's going to be on street parking there right kind of where you're proposing the entrance to be

1:25:40Is that the right spot?

1:25:42Well, i'm not aware of the on street parking

1:25:46That you mentioned councillor

1:25:48On you're talking on elmira road. Is that correct?

1:25:52Yes, that's correct. Yeah, i'm not aware of that and

1:25:56perhaps

1:25:58Parking amendment would have to be made but I see the risk a huge risk of having that traffic flow onto

1:26:04Willow road and any adjustments that could be made to the

1:26:08You know number one moving that vehicular entry point to

1:26:13To allow us to move that to elmira road and secondly any adjustments to the parking

1:26:18You know scheme in the area as well, but I see it's just dangerous right now having that traffic flow onto willow road

1:26:25Thank you

1:26:28I see that as the priority

1:26:31Okay, thank you michael. I see no no further questions, but again

1:26:34We've heard your delegation and we'll take that under consideration as we move forward

1:26:38Dealing with staff as we move forward. Okay. Thank you mayor and councillor for your time. Much appreciate it

1:26:42Thank you for your presentation and your delegation. We appreciate it

1:26:47Um, we have one more that is signed up here daniel medill

1:26:51Come on down daniel

1:27:04Hi, thank you for joining us appreciate it and so you've heard me say the 10-minute thing

1:27:08You've been here the whole time. You've been listening. So go right ahead whenever you're ready. Okay. Good evening

1:27:13Thank you for the opportunity to be able to address city council

1:27:17My name is dr. Daniel medill and I live on mclochland place

1:27:20My wife and I have talked to a number of the neighbors

1:27:23And would like to share thoughts on the proposed development at 105 on my road north

1:27:28Our family home backs directly onto this lot and so we are personally impacted by this proposal

1:27:34When most of us purchased our properties the zoning of 105 on my road was neighborhood shopping center or nc according to the 1995

1:27:43city of guelph zoning bylaw

1:27:45And we did our due diligence with respect to the zoning

1:27:48And determined that a commercial establishment could be erected with a maximum building height under the 1995 regulations of two stories

1:27:57And we were fine with that regulation and happily purchased our properties

1:28:00Trusting that the city would act in good faith and that the zoning would be respected

1:28:05And bear in mind that the purchase of a home is a large long-term investment

1:28:09Some of the neighbors have you seen who will be directly impacted by the proposed development have been in their home since 1994

1:28:17However, as we were preparing for this presentation, we were shocked to discover that the city

1:28:22Unbeknownst to us redefined the zoning in 2023 2024

1:28:27And the redefinition of zoning of the property on a my road in 2023 was from the 1995

1:28:33NC designation to the 2023 neighborhood commercial center or ncc designation

1:28:40And one of the key differentiators between the 1995 and 2023 zoning is the restriction on the maximum building height

1:28:47Under the new ncc zoning the maximum building height restriction was increased from a reasonable two stories

1:28:53To triple the maximum building height at six stories

1:28:57And that change is a massive increase and changes the character of potential developments completely

1:29:03Currently the tallest building in this neighborhood between drone crescent and imperial road is only four stories and there are very few of them

1:29:11The proposed development seeks to extend the zoning once again from ncc to site specific medium does the density residential rm6

1:29:19The rm6 zoning is similar to the ncc zoning, but is residential and character rather than commercial

1:29:25However, the developer is seeking exemptions from a number of the zoning requirements of rm6 which have been delineated

1:29:32All told the developer wishes to over step seven out of the 12 applicable regulations of the rm6 zoning

1:29:38As well as parking requirements and some of them significantly such as 30 more units

1:29:44Substantially fewer visitor parking

1:29:47Um

1:29:48and others

1:29:49Like the uncommon amenities yet most of these exemptions would be unnecessary if the building were simply shorter

1:29:56Zoning requirements are implemented for a reason and exceeding those limits negatively impacts communities

1:30:03There are other sites nearby with more suitable zoning for such a building. So it's a bit puzzling why

1:30:09Such a project is being considered at 105 lmyre road

1:30:13At the present time it will be the by far the largest building in the neighborhood on a small lot

1:30:19And when comparing this proposed building to a six-story apartment complex at willow road in westwood on a similar size lot

1:30:26The number of units of the proposed complex appears to be double that of the existing complex

1:30:31Also suggesting that this building is too large

1:30:35for the lot

1:30:37The city's official plan states that an amendment should be compatible with the adjacent land use designations

1:30:44In this case the adjacent land use designations are low density residential

1:30:48And low density residential designations still allow for a three to four story apartment building

1:30:55A low density residential land use designation would be more in line with the normal zoning bylaw requirements and would not require the

1:31:01Applicant to seek zoning amendments to increase the site density

1:31:06We also notice that the majority of the units in the proposed development are small single bedroom

1:31:11rental units in a family-oriented neighborhood of home owners with a school nearby

1:31:16And it seems to us that more family friendly dwellings such as single family homes or townhouses

1:31:22Similar to the ones just across the street

1:31:25From 105 would be more appropriate for this lot and more consistent with the family-oriented character of the neighborhood

1:31:30The townhouses across the street from 105 Elmira road have worked out very well and additional units would blend with the neighborhood

1:31:40The proposed six story development would significantly impact the privacy enjoyed by the homes abutting the lot

1:31:46Especially because many of the backyards slope downward toward the lot

1:31:50Hence fencing and trees would be far less effective at screening the view of the proposed building

1:31:55Particularly a building of such height

1:31:58The immediate neighbor on Elmira road will be severely impacted because they will lose privacy at the front the right side

1:32:05And the back of their house due to this proposed development

1:32:09On top of that even existing trees on the lot are going to be removed

1:32:13A shorter building or townhouses would be more manageable from a privacy perspective

1:32:19Furthermore, we have observed that the reports prepared for the city consider the view of the parking lot from Willow road

1:32:25But not from the neighboring homes who will be looking directly onto the parking lot from their properties at all waking hours

1:32:31And in addition, we are concerned about the distinct possibility of light trespass from the lighting for this parking lot under the back of our properties

1:32:39Most homes have bedrooms in the back of the house. So light trespass onto into the backyard is a particular concern

1:32:47With respect to parking with a reduced number of parking spots being requested

1:32:51Many are concerned that overflow from the parking will spill onto neighboring streets or clog Willow road

1:32:58The increased surface parking request along with the decrease in open landscape area

1:33:04Would not be consistent with the conservation and climate change objectives of the city's official plan

1:33:10And having that amount of surface parking area would force rainwater to just flow into the stormwater system rather than be recycled or be absorbed into the ground

1:33:19There's a stormwater drain. I think right on one of our neighbor's properties abutting the lot

1:33:25The paved surface of the parking area combined with

1:33:28The vehicle emissions from the large number of vehicles using the site would be detrimental to the environmental well-being of the surrounding area

1:33:36The proposal to remove the trees on the property would also not be consistent with the direction of the city's official plan

1:33:43The large trees provide a shade canopy and they are a nesting area for many birds including hawks

1:33:50In terms of traffic the report prepared for the city did not require a traffic impact study

1:33:56Because the projected number of new trips per day to the proposed development would be was less than 100

1:34:02However, this projection fails to take into account school pickup and drop off drop off times at which willow road is a madhouse

1:34:10Increasing traffic at these times may pose a risk to child safety

1:34:16Particularly as many of the children on foot need to cross willow road and on my road and a lot of them walk down

1:34:23Flaherty as has already been mentioned that's will become a much busier street

1:34:28Um, and we have also observed that the city has not been provided with a report

1:34:33On the impact of the proposed development on the property values of neighboring properties

1:34:38I spoke to a professional real estate developer to get a rough estimate

1:34:43Of the potential drop in property values due to this development

1:34:47And was told that our home value may drop by a hundred thousand dollars or more

1:34:53I don't know how accurate that is, but that's what I was told by a professional real estate developer

1:34:57So collectively then this development could potentially cost impacted homeowners more than one million dollars in total

1:35:03And perhaps much more

1:35:05How will we be compensated for this loss of equity if the proposed development goes through?

1:35:12Significant losses like this in equity can impact retirement planning for instance

1:35:16Will our property taxes be reduced for example?

1:35:20In order to compensate

1:35:22Also, what provisions and guarantees will be made for the upkeep and maintenance of this development?

1:35:27If it is built

1:35:29In summary, it seems to us that the developer is trying to pack too much into too little space

1:35:35Thereby requiring exemptions to a majority of the zoning requirements of the proposed rm6 zoning

1:35:41To save money. They are also trying to skirt maximum surface parking requirements

1:35:45Which have a direct impact on neighboring properties

1:35:48And while we are sympathetic to the need for additional housing in guelph

1:35:52That seems to us that a shorter building or even better single family dwellings or townhouses would be more appropriate

1:35:59For the 105 elmira road lot

1:36:02And we are greatly disappointed

1:36:04That the city has not respected the zoning applicable when most of us

1:36:08Purchased our homes

1:36:11And so thank you

1:36:13for your attention

1:36:15Thank you very much for for coming down just one second. Is there any questions as a follow-up?

1:36:22There's not so thank you very much. We appreciate it

1:36:26Okay, um, we're going to take a quick break

1:36:29But before I do that, we're going to have a phone number go up on the screen just in case anyone that's watching online would like to comment

1:36:37Also in the room

1:36:40We is there anything new that needs to be added by anybody that you feel that you would like to comment on this application?

1:36:47If it's been covered, we'll also see if someone online wants to so 5198375603

1:36:55Is the number we're going to take about a four or five minute

1:37:00Break just to see if anyone does call in

1:37:02And and then we'll pick it up from there. Okay, so just about four or five minute breaks

1:37:07So thank you very much for coming everyone. Just relax and we'll come right back to you. Okay

1:42:35Okay, I'm going to call the the meeting back to order. Please if anyone just grab their seat

1:42:50And thank you. We had no extra delegations

1:42:53Call in at all again just to the to the room. Thank you very much

1:42:57Is there anyone that wanted to add anything more than what we heard?

1:43:01Okay, thank you. So just for everyone in the room anyone listening. I just want to just reiterate that

1:43:08This is not a decision meeting. Okay, we're not making a decision at all tonight

1:43:12So this is this is the the public process of hearing

1:43:16feedback the developer the applicant makes the pitch

1:43:20And we hear from the public officially and then our staff take all of that away

1:43:25They also our staff also hear from all of us if we have comments that get taken away

1:43:31And then they will

1:43:32They will do their professional job to see whether or not what's being requested fits or tweaks can be made or whatever

1:43:39And they'll work with the developer and at some point in the future

1:43:42A recommendation comes back to us. Okay, and that again is another public meeting. Okay, so

1:43:47um, I just want to make sure sometimes people over the years have been like, I can't believe you're making

1:43:52A decision we're not making a decision tonight at all. Okay, so thank you to all the delegates that have come forward

1:43:59Just off the top is can we just at least have a motion to officially receive the application?

1:44:04So boost a till and alt. Thank you

1:44:07Um, and then before I go to comments from us back to staff. I just want to reiterate what I've been

1:44:13Saying all along many times. You've heard me say it

1:44:16Please uh, express anything that has not been said to council to to our staff

1:44:23Because our staff have already captured everything that's already been said. So anything new

1:44:28Please go ahead and let our staff know but uh, please do not repeat the things that have already been said

1:44:33So we can continue to move along. I'll go alt boost a till downer and then I'll look around through

1:44:38Okay, thank you very much, mayor guthrie

1:44:41And these are in some senses takeaways

1:44:44But I would appreciate knowing when the traffic study was completed and whether it included some of the areas that have been

1:44:52Mentioned today including flairty. I can appreciate that the challenges flairty

1:44:57does

1:45:00Provide um, I also I do have concerns about

1:45:04Commercial as we're trying to develop a walkable city. This is very clearly

1:45:08An area that is very short on amenities

1:45:11Um, unless you include the big box store and the zeirs plaza that are significant

1:45:17Significantly away and I wonder whether there's any way to include some commercial in the main floor

1:45:24The other thing for staff is the access point whether it is cast in stone or whether there can be a variance on that

1:45:32I don't know the particular traffic regulations, but

1:45:36Um, for me the almira road entrance would seem to be

1:45:41Superior, but there might be limitations on that. So I'll leave it at that that doesn't need to be answered today

1:45:46But those are my concerns

1:45:48That's fair. Thank you

1:45:50Councillor Allt boost a till then downer, please

1:45:53Thank you. I'm not going to repeat

1:45:55But um, I the massing on the site is a concern that was raised traffic study and I

1:46:02I know for years have been problems with Mitchell woods and traffic

1:46:07For years and years at least 16 that I'm aware of

1:46:11Entrance I'm not sold on almira and I wrote down here for clarification

1:46:16Um, I'm ira kind of closer to where the houses are because I'm pretty sure I'm going to drive by there tonight

1:46:22There's parks on street parking there, but I I can't remember how

1:46:26Low it starts. I think it's where the houses are on street permanent kind of

1:46:32parking

1:46:33I do have to do a plug for consideration of a mix of size of units for families

1:46:40Family of four three bedrooms automatic

1:46:43Just a question about on the willow road the entrance across from the townhouses

1:46:49It just seems like it's it's begging for some kind of head-to-head there

1:46:55It would be helpful for me because I know the these properties is clarification green is not green

1:47:02and so

1:47:03Natural heritage and I know for example the property adjacent to Mitchell woods

1:47:08Behind the single residences is natural heritage if it can be a little bit clear

1:47:13What's natural heritage and that property is actually school board property and not city property

1:47:20baseball diamonds

1:47:22Again, I've I've been on that area

1:47:24Could you just clarify for me somewhere in the plane and the report if it's on a flood plain?

1:47:30I know there's the storm water pond there, but I can't remember if that's also a flood plain

1:47:35And I think that was it for me. Thank you. Thank you downer, please

1:47:40Thank you through you mr. Mayor, so I agree with some of the comments that have been made

1:47:45I do have a concern about where the entrance way is on

1:47:50on willow

1:47:51I don't know if it can be moved to a myra, but um

1:47:54That is a concern, but that leads me to a question around

1:47:58traffic coming now there in the past we've

1:48:02Insisted that like traffic signals

1:48:05Be incorporated as part of developments

1:48:08Is it possible to talk about traffic calming measures if it's if the entrance way is on willow

1:48:14Can we do those center things?

1:48:16Can we build a chicane's as part of that development into the road that would slow down traffic there or

1:48:23between there and the school um

1:48:26Like because like I said we we used to be able to ask for things like traffic signals

1:48:33Can we start to look at some traffic calming?

1:48:37Features or initiatives as part of a development now? I guess that's a question. I don't know

1:48:46Through the mayor to counselor downer will have to take that back to our

1:48:50Traffic staff because I know in the past we've had there are independent reviews done

1:48:55I think they're called like traffic management studies where individual residents can email our traffic staff

1:49:00to look at specific

1:49:03streets and

1:49:04and

1:49:05Our traffic staff will go out. There's a list. I believe there is a long list

1:49:10They will go out and do their own traffic counts and studies and then put in some calming measures

1:49:16Okay, I just I didn't miss the traffic and transportation workshop we just had and there's

1:49:21250 I think or something on the list

1:49:24Like 60 have been done. We're not we're not doing that and it's going to take a hundred years. So

1:49:29um

1:49:30I just

1:49:31I mean, I'm sure there'll be cameras at Mitchell woods, but I mean I'm talking about having it as part of a development

1:49:40As like we have traffic signals in the past and I wonder if that can be looked into like

1:49:45Even if you're you're building out sidewalks and things like that as it is

1:49:49Can there be some road features that slow down traffic at that point?

1:49:53They're like even that, you know, how they go out the chicane's that go out into the roads and things like that that can slow it down

1:50:01Yeah, we'll have to take that back and discuss that with our traffic staff

1:50:04Who are reviewing the traffic impact brief that was submitted with the application?

1:50:09Okay, thank you

1:50:12Just before I go to councillor buildings if I could just jump in forgive me council

1:50:15But just what councillor downer is saying I remember

1:50:21I remember when the Costco development was coming

1:50:23We had a lot of delegations upset about the Costco development coming um on white law

1:50:30And they were concerned about cut through traffic from the south end from nisca road and coming through white law and

1:50:36Coming to Costco and stuff like that and I remember at that meeting

1:50:41We actually asked the traffic staff separately so outside of the development but to do kind of a pre and post

1:50:48traffic study

1:50:50And then if it warranted after if there was issues and it warranted it then we could look at sort of traffic calming at that time

1:50:57Again sort of independent of the development

1:51:00And and we passed a motion for that and of course they looked at it and then it didn't it didn't meet the warrants at the time

1:51:06So um, so just as a takeaway other than you know trying to work it into the development

1:51:11We can look at it kind of separate from the development

1:51:14For the neighborhood regardless of the of some of the the development that might occur, okay

1:51:19Uh billings please is next

1:51:22To mr. Mayor, it's a question for staff and that is

1:51:26If the access was on almyra, what is the distance between the intersection and where that access would start?

1:51:35I mean meters

1:51:41um

1:51:42Through the mayor to the council, I don't know off the top of my head, but I believe um when we did have an initial meeting with the applicant

1:51:50um

1:51:51I think over a year ago the original entrance was proposed off of almyra and our traffic staff did look at it

1:51:57At the time and they said it did not meet the minimum distance, but I just can't

1:52:01Remember the exact number off the top of my head. We'll have to provide that as a follow-up. Okay. Thanks and

1:52:08Through mr. Mayor. Yes, I know we've talked about density, but this is my question

1:52:14Tomorrow we're going to have a meeting with respect to our water and wastewater capacity

1:52:20And on one of the slides it states that like one of the city's issues or major challenges is that

1:52:27Quote development is seeking higher than max density allotted

1:52:33So I was just wondering when you bring back the report

1:52:38If staff are going to support this 130 units per hectare if you could justify that for me then

1:52:45Why are we going over the max density?

1:52:49I would appreciate that

1:52:52Great. Thank you

1:52:54Is there anything further at all that needs to be captured before I call the vote?

1:53:00No, okay. So again, thank you. Thank you very much to the delegates

1:53:04We will take it under consideration and to and to our staff too

1:53:08Um, just you know, I just want to say just a quick comment to everybody in the room

1:53:13This really really reminds me and a lot of you on council or with me

1:53:18Of the church that got

1:53:22Torn down at the corner of

1:53:25Embro and court right

1:53:27And that and that was hip developments as well the same happened to be the same developer

1:53:32and uh

1:53:34The the neighborhood the neighborhood came came the way the way the presentation today is kind of it's pushed to the corner

1:53:40right it's it's kind of a

1:53:42You know kind of an L or u shaped to the corner with the parking lot at the back

1:53:47And I remember a lot of the delegates coming here just just like all of you like with with the same sort of issues

1:53:52which is fair, right and

1:53:56And I remember it you know, it's got built you can drive by it today at the corner of court rate and and uh,

1:54:02embryo

1:54:04And I remember speaking to some of the people that came out to the to the delegation at that time

1:54:09Speaking to them, you know, three years later sort of after it was all done and it was landscape and it was being used when I

1:54:15And I remember some of them saying, you know, it's not as bad as as we thought

1:54:19You know, um, it's it's better than what we we thought and sometimes that's way these these developments

1:54:25Sometimes can happen. There's this there's this fear. I've learned over the years. There's this fear of the unknown

1:54:31which is fair and and then but once it's

1:54:35Once it's done, you know, whatever is proposed here. I'm not suggesting it has to be this but once it's done

1:54:40Um, once it's landscaped and once it's kind of functioning within the area

1:54:45It can it can it can work and it just kind of reminds me of that gordon and

1:54:50Enboro road development. It just happens to be the same developer. That's the only reason why I bring it up

1:54:56um

1:54:58And so yeah, sorry, that's just a little bit of comment for everyone to take away on on that one

1:55:02So I'll call the vote. Uh

1:55:04Is is anyone against us receiving the application?

1:55:09Okay, nobody. Okay. Thank you very much for your feedback and you can keep in touch with staff and us at any time between now

1:55:15Whenever a recommendation comes back, okay? Thank you

1:55:18And if you want to stay for the rest of the meeting go ahead, but it might be a good time for you to

1:55:22To move on home if you wish, okay?

1:55:29Um, thank you. So we are moving to the sign by law. Well, actually

1:55:35um

1:55:36Do you mind just would staff be okay if we just jumped to the 72

1:55:41Is it 72 gordon? Yeah 72 gordon only because the

1:55:48Sign by law is it is just a presentation. There's no there's no delegations. Would that be okay with everybody?

1:55:56Yeah, okay, if you don't mind. Thank you. I I see our staff are coming down from heritage our heritage planner. So, um

1:56:03Councillor Goller, are you okay? I'm sorry. I'm putting you on the spot. You asked for this to be

1:56:07Pulled so why don't we try to wrap this one up and then we can get to the sign by law. Okay. Go ahead

1:56:13Uh, thank you through your worship. Um

1:56:17When I when I saw this on the on the agenda, I knew that it was coming because we had approved that uh

1:56:23We had put it down in a previous council meeting

1:56:26What I noticed uh this time around is that there was a letter from the owner

1:56:30Uh noting an objection. So I did this morning. I stopped by the the building

1:56:35I spoke to to a couple of the people there. Um, thank you. One of them has been here for for a long time

1:56:41Thank you for being here. Um, and they expressed their concerns with uh the designation and the impacts to both

1:56:48The the maintenance of the building on an ongoing basis

1:56:52And also the limitations that it would present at some point when

1:56:56They might look to redevelop. They made it clear that at this point, they're not looking to to redevelop. It is

1:57:01a business that is working well

1:57:03But they the objected on those reasons. So I wanted to bring it up to council and I wanted to have this conversation

1:57:10I think based on what I heard

1:57:12And what I what I'm reading uh on the on the report and recommendation

1:57:17I'm going to to ask my council colleagues that perhaps this is a building that we may not want to to designate

1:57:24to allow for more flexibility for redevelopment in the future

1:57:29And also to not put that burden on the current property owner to have to maintain the building as is if if they choose to

1:57:36on a

1:57:38ongoing basis to do maintenance and repairs that may not be in keeping with what is there

1:57:44So that is my request and if I could ask that

1:57:48On the on the staff recommendation if we can just separate one and two because I of course want to receive the

1:57:57Notice of objection and to vote against the the recommendation and

1:58:01And with this if I could just ask

1:58:03procedurally from from staff for of course their comments, but also

1:58:07procedurally if council were to not approve the the staff recommendation what would happen at this point

1:58:14Yeah, I think if you don't mind councillor Goller. I think why don't we

1:58:18Just take a moment here for anybody including yourself to ask questions of staff around kind of what you've brought up

1:58:25And then you can come back to us to look to approve or not approve what's here. So um

1:58:30Why don't we go with at least that first question, which is if council were not to approve

1:58:36the designation

1:58:38What happens?

1:58:45Through the mayor

1:58:47Council would have to withdraw the notice of intention to designate at tonight's meeting

1:58:57So based on

1:58:59What councillor Goller has brought up?

1:59:01Do you have any other questions that you want staff to answer publicly about what's in front of us or do you want to leave it to

1:59:07council

1:59:08I would leave that to council and I think if we vote this down then I will

1:59:14Work with staff to to put together wording to to remove the

1:59:19That the designation as

1:59:24Well, then I have a question then maybe I'll just jump in first to break the ice

1:59:29so

1:59:31Is there is there some

1:59:35Does the designation cause problems for redevelopment of the site?

1:59:40I mean that's really the crux of what I think councillor Goller has brought forward

1:59:44So we have a designation in front of us. Let's say council approves it

1:59:49What is onerous or a hurdle?

1:59:53or

1:59:54problems in the future of trying to

1:59:58Maintain and or develop the site either with the current owner or if they put it up for sale and somebody else

2:00:07um through the mayor

2:00:09We crafted this bylaw

2:00:12Specifically knowing that the site would likely be redeveloped

2:00:15um, the attributes listed are just the wall along gordon street and just the wall along surrey street

2:00:23Because we anticipate that someday there may be height on this property

2:00:28um, if designated

2:00:30Proponent would have to provide a heritage impact assessment to show that the property is

2:00:37Conserving its heritage value through a development

2:00:41But fundamentally as long as those walls remain in place

2:00:45That would be the only restriction on site and there would be flexibility there for

2:00:53You know possibly removing portions of a wall

2:00:57Relocating things reconstructing things

2:01:00I think I'd like to emphasize that there's more flexibility

2:01:03Within a heritage designation than is often assumed and so the ball would very much be in whomever was developing the property's court

2:01:11to

2:01:12Demonstrate how they could conserve the property's heritage value

2:01:17Thank you. And just as a final follow-up then for me

2:01:20um

2:01:21Are those walls and I mean when I drive by it I get why I personally get why there's heritage value. I do

2:01:29um

2:01:30But can those walls be removed and then incorporated into a development?

2:01:37um

2:01:38Or do they have to stay as the people try to work around it? I just wanted to understand

2:01:44um

2:01:45How onerous it is if someone were to remove

2:01:48And then try to incorporate into a

2:01:528 10 12 whatever the height would be for that

2:01:56Okay, you get my question. Yeah through the mayor. Um, absolutely. There would be flexibility there to

2:02:03Move the walls deconstruct and reconstruct the walls. Um, again

2:02:08There's lots of options available for conservation

2:02:13Okay, thank you. Uh councillor Allt

2:02:16Thank you very much. Mayor guthrie just following up on what you have raised. I think that uh through you to staff

2:02:23And I hope that we can get some clarification

2:02:26If I even ask the question right

2:02:28Part of the confusion I think is

2:02:31The public is not clear what a part four part five part whatever heritage designation

2:02:38puts on them as a responsibility

2:02:42Is a part four heritage designation an absolute restriction on development on the site or is it flexible?

2:02:52Or is it confined to only certain aspects? In other words, it's rigid

2:02:57But there's only certain elements of a structure to which it is confined

2:03:05through the mayor, um

2:03:07If I have one goal as a heritage planner, it's to change people's misconceptions around designation

2:03:13um, I I think designation is a very valuable tool for municipalities to guide change

2:03:21Um, but I I do not think it should be used to prevent change

2:03:26I see it as a very

2:03:28Flexible tool that allows property owners and the city to have a conservation about the future of a property

2:03:36And as a heritage planner my personal practice is to have a lot of latitude towards change. I

2:03:43Like yourself, um, I I'm a historian and my favorite definition of history is the study of change over time

2:03:50And I don't think what we're here to do is to prevent change

2:03:54I think we're here to prevent significant loss of heritage resources

2:03:58And so that's the opportunity that designation affords is for the city to consider loss to historic places

2:04:05Uh before they occur

2:04:08Thank you

2:04:10Like a Quran, please

2:04:15actually my questions and comments are almost identical to our our heritage planners comments about

2:04:20Uh the the flexibility and the potential for change

2:04:25um, when I look at a designation I I I don't look at um

2:04:30You know, I know this sounds harsh, but it isn't about the owner's wishes. It's about the community's

2:04:36um

2:04:37preservation of places um that tell stories

2:04:41And I look at the quadrant around gordon and wellington and we've lost pretty much everything

2:04:46There is very very little remnant

2:04:48Of the original building and a lot of people might think oh well those were all vacant lots at one time

2:04:54They'll almost everything in that entire precinct is on its second third and fourth iteration

2:05:01Um, there were blacksmiths. There's a blacksmith shop and and some some working class homes and

2:05:07Almost everything from that area um has been lost. This is the last remnant

2:05:12So I do think that the the the elements identified for preservation conservation within a designation are key to its

2:05:21adaptability for um for reuse and by just um

2:05:27Designating the exterior wall area

2:05:31We're actually it's a win-win. We get the story that continues to be told and still have an opportunity for development

2:05:38Which we all know is going to happen in and around this site

2:05:42So I would urge my colleagues to think past its current use and think think past

2:05:48You know

2:05:50The stewardship of of one particular owner or future owners and look at the story that can be told on that site with its retention

2:05:59Thanks

2:06:01Thank you, uh Richardson, please

2:06:04Thank you through you mayor

2:06:06Can you help me understand what the significance of the walls is like if it's the brick and the type of brick that was used

2:06:12Would that be something that would be able to be if the walls had to be taken down?

2:06:17Could that brick be incorporated somewhere else and and I do love the story about the first

2:06:22Bakery and the bread and and can that I I've been to other areas like allora for instance where they'll

2:06:29They'll have a plot cop telling the story of what that building used to be so that story doesn't get lost

2:06:34I mean I do love the heritage and I do love the the history of it

2:06:37But I'm just wondering if those walls if it's the brick could that be reconfigured into somewhere else if the building had to be

2:06:46remodeled for a particular use

2:06:50Through the mayor

2:06:51The walls facing gordon street and syrie street were identified because they're the primarily

2:06:57Visible architectural elements of the building from the public realm

2:07:01um

2:07:04There are opportunities for selvedge and reuse

2:07:08That is a valid conservation practice

2:07:11If that were something that was proposed it would be considered absolutely

2:07:18So through you mayor is would the owner have to propose that or would it does it have to be designated in order for the owner to

2:07:25Be able to be able to do that or could they do it on their own?

2:07:30Through the mayor that could be done at the owner's prerogative without a designation

2:07:36Uh, but if this property is not designated and it is developed in the future

2:07:41Uh, there will be no conversation between the city and the property owner

2:07:50Councillor Allt then i'll go back to sort of the the mover on this issue to galler. Okay

2:07:55Thank you very much mayor. Guthrie was not my intention to ask a first question

2:07:59Let alone a second question, but as we're going on there are some concerns that I think that

2:08:05Need to be at least publicly

2:08:08Addressed so that people are confident about what we're we're dealing with

2:08:13I've had a couple of residents in a couple of other situations

2:08:16Who've expressed real concern of a potential financial obligation with regards to insurance liability even restoration

2:08:24With the designation of this particular building is there the potential for increased financial obligation or um, or duty to um,

2:08:35To protect the walls in a certain fashion

2:08:42Through the mayor to councillor Allt um

2:08:45There's no obligation beyond what is in the property standards bylaw

2:08:50The property standards bylaw does require maintenance of heritage attributes

2:08:55um

2:08:56but in in the case of this

2:08:59Specific building I I do not believe that would be true. Um, we'd want the walls to be kept in good repair

2:09:05But that would be the full extent

2:09:08With regards to insurance, um

2:09:11This is a problem for designated properties across the province. Um, and it

2:09:16Really seems to go property owner to property owner. Um

2:09:21it depends who they're insured with and

2:09:24There's many variables. Um

2:09:27but

2:09:28heritage planning staff offer letters to property owners to

2:09:32Say what?

2:09:33A property owner's obligations would be in the case of a catastrophic event to offer clarity to insurance companies

2:09:41Just a quick question. I don't because I don't really don't know the answer. Um, does that letter

2:09:47Carry weight with insurance companies. Do you know I don't know I haven't got a clue

2:09:52I I do not know. No, good. Thanks. I'm gonna end here with uh, counselor guller

2:10:08Um

2:10:09Over to you. Thank you. Thank you for pulling it. It's a healthy discussion. Absolutely. Thank you. I appreciate it

2:10:14So so go ahead and my last question to staff just

2:10:19understanding that currently

2:10:21the

2:10:22the owners could

2:10:24Update the building and make changes to the brick facade and they could change the materials

2:10:30By passing this this regulation then they would be prevented from from making those changes understandably

2:10:36Which would have some cost associated. Does the city have any?

2:10:42Community improvement

2:10:44Grants, I know we had them for the downtown for a long time

2:10:47If someone in downtown had a heritage building

2:10:49They wanted to do repairs to maintain the heritage aspects

2:10:52There were grants available from the city. Are there any grants to help?

2:10:57folks that have heritage buildings

2:10:59to do the repairs and replacements to maintain those heritage attributes

2:11:06Through the marriage of the counselors. So there are no grants available currently

2:11:10I also do want to note that as it's a listed property and it will be till December 31st, 2026

2:11:16So if they were coming in for a development application

2:11:19Just even as a listed property, there would still be heritage requirements that would be required

2:11:29And that is until the end of of next year. That is correct. Okay. Okay

2:11:34Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you. Where's it?

2:11:37Thank you. And just sorry back to Karan for a sec

2:11:41Yeah, I just want clarity on on that those heritage protections. I understand

2:11:47A red a listed property listed on the register but undesignated

2:11:53Doesn't have the same protections. There would be a delay in in any development application

2:11:59while council

2:12:01Contemplates designation, but other than that what what would a listed property

2:12:07Be protected from if it's not designated

2:12:13Just just for my own clarity

2:12:15Yeah, through the marriage of the counselor. So you're correct. So if it's listed, they still have to go through

2:12:20Um, a process and a heritage permit process if they want to make changes

2:12:24Um, to a listed property before um until such time as it's designated if they have a development application

2:12:30For example, if they wanted to come through for higher density

2:12:33Then the consideration of heritage designation would come to council within 60 days of that development application

2:12:41Thanks

2:12:43All right. Thank you

2:12:44So to close this up. I think it's kind of a to me to me

2:12:48It's a it's an up or down. Right like once we put the recommendations on the floor

2:12:52I mean, you either you either agree or you don't right so

2:12:55um, so with that can I please ask a counselor to

2:13:00Look to move one and two for me. The first one is to receive the second one is to designate

2:13:05Who would be willing to do that for me? All right, karan and katin. I'll go stick on the screen

2:13:11and

2:13:12And then is there anything further any comments before?

2:13:16Oh, yes, I'll separate for you for you counselor caller

2:13:19Is there any comments at all before I call the vote on number one?

2:13:22And number one is that the notice of objection to intention to designate 72 gordon street date april 10th 2025

2:13:28from nancy schner be received

2:13:33And so is there anyone against the that receiving of that notice?

2:13:39Okay, so that's unanimous

2:13:41And then to the final one, which is the designation that the designation bylaw for 72 gordon street be approved

2:13:48So any comments on that before I call the vote at all?

2:13:52No, okay. Um, I will call the vote then is anyone against that

2:14:00Okay

2:14:02Guthrie and billings and galler and chew and richardson

2:14:09And so in favor would be katin and karan and

2:14:16Downer and

2:14:18Alt and busatil. Oh, we have to tie vote. Wow

2:14:23Guys my strong mayors. No

2:14:26Um, so that fails

2:14:30Through you mr. Mayor, that's correct. A tie vote is considered a failed motion

2:14:34Okay

2:14:37That's that's it

2:14:39Um, so as a follow-up you've sent something counselor goer

2:14:42Yes, your worship. I just sent something to uh

2:14:45Staff and to clerks just to verify that the wording of the motion would work to withdraw the notice of the designation

2:14:56Through you, mr. Mayor, we'll just ask clerks office staff to bring up the motion we have in the deck right now

2:15:01It's very similar to the wording that you've presented counselor goer. We'll just get you to confirm it

2:15:12That is just that it's be withdrawn if that works with with staff

2:15:17And uh, okay, so I'm gonna call the vote. Sorry. I need this so it's moved by yourself

2:15:22I'll move to the notice of intention to designate 72 Gordon issued march 27th 2025 be withdrawn in accordance with section

2:15:31297 of the anterior heritage act

2:15:34Okay, and then seconded by Richardson

2:15:36Okay, so now it's kind of a reverse here. I think I know where this vote might go

2:15:41Um, this will be interesting

2:15:45So all those against please raise your hand

2:15:49Okay, kate and karan

2:15:51and uh downer and alt and busatil

2:15:55So this is a very this is very interesting catch 22

2:16:00Uh, so that's it it fails

2:16:02So we need to ask staff

2:16:06Um, where do we go from here?

2:16:10This is an interesting, uh, this is interesting for those online staff are conferring right now. Okay

2:16:17Through you mr. Mayor, I'll start and then uh plan and staff may be able to maybe able to help from a procedural perspective

2:16:23No motion is carried. So there's no decision. There's no decision to approve. There's no decision to withdraw the designation

2:16:30So it is as is

2:16:32Council in the case of ties, especially related to land use planning applications can revisit it at a future meeting

2:16:39But I would look to planning staff

2:16:42To comment on how the timelines of the Ontario Heritage Act might impact

2:16:47This particular application if it was moved to the next council planning meeting in June

2:17:00Thank you. Mayor Guthrie

2:17:03We have until July 25th

2:17:07to

2:17:09Respond to this but if nothing happens if there is no motion to designate brought forward within that time

2:17:17Then it just lapses and it's

2:17:19Not designated

2:17:22Okay, but can I just as a follow-up is there is there an obligation on staff to actually bring it forward again?

2:17:30No, okay. No, it would not be staff bringing it forward but we as a

2:17:34Planning body have not made a decision

2:17:37So I'm just wondering like clerks. Did you want to jump in again?

2:17:41Through you, we're working through this here

2:17:43One option open to council would be to refer it to the June council planning meeting. That'll bring it back to june

2:17:49At which point council could reconsider it. Yeah, I think I think uh

2:18:15I think I would feel comfortable. We we've got to land on a decision. So I would feel more comfortable with a deferral

2:18:23Motion to the june planning meeting

2:18:27I think that's the proper way of closing this down

2:18:31So can I have someone please move a deferral on this matter to the june planning meeting? Okay, boost it till we'll do that

2:18:39And galler will second it

2:18:41Okay, and is there any questions on that before I call sure karan go ahead

2:18:46It's more of a question. I mean it seems some of my colleagues have have concerns and rightfully so if you if

2:18:54If those exist and and that guided your vote

2:18:57Does it have to be the same motion that comes back to the june council meeting?

2:19:01So for example, if some of the concerns are about the scope of the designation

2:19:06whether it's the entire front facade and side walls or just the the bricks or the the

2:19:12um the shape of the facade if there are concerns about the specific designated elements that may

2:19:20Change the vote in june if

2:19:23If do the staff want direction on that or would staff go back out to the owner and talk about

2:19:30Potential changes. What would what would the heritage planner recommend in that regard that may change the outcome of this?

2:19:35So I was just being I was just totally being polite there to let you finish

2:19:39I didn't want to interrupt you but technically and procedurally I have to call the vote because it was a deferral. There's no there's no

2:19:47Talking no anything I have I'm so sorry, you know, I'm not trying to do it on purpose

2:19:51No questions. It was yeah, I know we can't debate it, but it was a question

2:19:55Yeah, I think I think fair that it's out in the open

2:19:57I think between now and june if there's questions of members of council

2:20:02Or staff to the to the owner or whatever that can all happen before it comes back in june

2:20:07But I do have to call the vote right now. Okay, so is anyone against the deferral to the planning in june for this for this for this issue

2:20:16No, okay, that's unanimous. Thank you. That was very interesting. I don't think I've ever dealt with that

2:20:22So that was very interesting. Okay, so I would I would take up councillor Caron's ideas like if if there is a question

2:20:29between us and staff or between staff and the owner like you know, you can you can talk between now and and

2:20:36And and june

2:20:37But be prepared that the exact same thing

2:20:41Is being flown to the june the june discussion and then we can talk about amendments or edits or things there

2:20:47But the exact same thing you've seen today will fly to the june planning meeting

2:20:51It's as if we're pausing and picking it up again

2:20:55At that point. Okay, so thank you everybody. Let's move on and uh, let's talk about signs

2:21:03Kelly you've been waiting

2:21:06For a long time. Sorry

2:21:08Thank you very much. This is a proposed proposed amendments to the sign by-law

2:21:12we're gonna have a quick presentation

2:21:15and

2:21:18Kelly you're gonna walk us through it

2:21:21And then we'll come back to us and this will be the last item for the day. So go ahead

2:21:27Good evening mayor counselors staff and members of the public

2:21:31Thank you for listening to my presentation tonight about the proposed amendments to the sign by-law

2:21:38The purpose is

2:21:39well, actually, sorry, let's start the

2:21:42Current sign by-law was passed by council in july 2021. It was a three-year project to update a 1996 sign by-law

2:21:50There was extensive public

2:21:53consultation

2:21:58Sorry, can someone just tell me what button to press?

2:22:01The big green one in the middle

2:22:09The big the other big green one. Okay

2:22:12We're good to go now

2:22:14extensive public consultation was completed

2:22:18Including a stakeholder group that consisted of sign companies the sign association of canada the downtown business

2:22:24Association the chamber of commerce university golf golf home builders golf wellington development association

2:22:31And the golf and district association of realtors

2:22:34So you may be asking why are we here?

2:22:37um

2:22:39with the passing of the zoning by-law

2:22:43um

2:22:45All the regulations in the sign by-law

2:22:49Are based on zone categories

2:22:51From the zoning by-law. So with the passing of the 2023

2:22:56Zoning by-law

2:22:58All the news we have now new zone category names

2:23:03So this amendment also is giving staff the opportunity to correct format and update the by-law and propose new minor

2:23:09regulations

2:23:12So first formatting changes that we are doing

2:23:17This is an example

2:23:19We're changing all the definitions previously. They aren't bolded

2:23:23Now they're proposed to be bolded. This will make it more clear and concise for people to know to refer to a specific term back in the definitions

2:23:36Each section also included zone categories that were listed duplicated twice. So we're just

2:23:44Come like deleting some just to make it more concise some clear to read

2:23:50um

2:23:57so

2:23:59As you see here, this is an example of our commercial

2:24:03section in the by-law

2:24:05we're moving from

2:24:08The old

2:24:09C1 and C C C zones to our commercial mixed use center zones mixed use corridor zones and neighborhood commercial zones

2:24:22One of the bigger changes that we're doing is moving the convenience commercial zone

2:24:29That was previously grouped together

2:24:32with

2:24:33all of our larger zone categories

2:24:36to

2:24:37the mixed office commercial zone chart

2:24:41The purpose of this as you see here

2:24:45All of our cc zones

2:24:47Coversial commute convenient zones are small commercial properties that are surrounded by residential zones

2:24:54Just similarly to the orange at the bottom of the slide our mixed office commercial zones

2:25:01Previously the cc zones could have

2:25:03a six meter tall ground sign

2:25:06Now with the change where they are with the mixed office commercial zones

2:25:11They will have we have a maximum permission of a 1.8 meter high sign

2:25:17ground sign

2:25:18Still can have the

2:25:21Facial signs illuminated all the regulations will see

2:25:26It's just more appropriate surrounded with the residential land uses to have the cc zones with the moc zones

2:25:37So with this amendment, we're also proposing some minor additions

2:25:43And there as follows

2:25:45There's new sign variance criteria proposed under section 7.7

2:25:50For determining whether or not to grant a variance

2:25:54And it's proposed whether the sign by law can be met with similar alternative signage

2:25:59Staff was finding a lot of sign variances were being proposed

2:26:04Just because a larger sign was wanted a taller sign was wanted

2:26:09um

2:26:11And really staff pushes back and says if you can meet the sign by law when appropriate, please do

2:26:19We are creating a new definition of building facade to clarify that only one sign is permitted

2:26:26per side of a building on the top story

2:26:29In service commercial institutional industrial zones

2:26:34The previous definition or how the regulation was written

2:26:39It wasn't 100 clear that it was the intent was only to have

2:26:45one sign

2:26:47per facade on the top story of a building

2:26:51In section 9 of prohibited signs

2:26:54A new regulation is being added

2:26:57to

2:26:59Prohibit any sign not specifically listed in this bylaw

2:27:03Because applicants do become creative and we do some creative signs out there. So therefore

2:27:10If it's not listed in the bylaw it is not permitted

2:27:13Or requires a variance

2:27:15To be permitted

2:27:18Staff is also introducing a new regulation

2:27:22um

2:27:23For illuminated facial signs when facing residential land uses

2:27:27Or sorry residential zones. Let me be more specific with residential zones

2:27:32um with our new zoning bylaw

2:27:35commercial properties are to

2:27:37more have

2:27:39Be closer to the streets therefore parking lots are behind

2:27:44and

2:27:45businesses for example at the corner of lozen gordon. There's a couple developments there

2:27:51Where the new

2:27:52Maybe two-story businesses or one-story businesses can have now signage on the back of their buildings

2:27:59Where the parking lot is

2:28:01So staff wanted to ensure that there was a minimum distance

2:28:05for illuminated signs between the back of the business and the rear of those residential properties

2:28:11And we were proposing to have it to be 15 meters which mirrors

2:28:15The distance required for a ground sign illuminated sign to be

2:28:20From a residential property

2:28:24Another introduction is the maximum height of 12 meters for any facious sign

2:28:29In industrial zones when it's permitted on the first or second story of a building

2:28:35That cap of 12 meters is being proposed because in an industrial zones a one-story warehouse could be

2:28:43Technically 20 meters high in our industrial zones

2:28:48Therefore limiting the height to 12 meters on one or two stories

2:28:5412 meters is a generous two-story height in an industrial zone

2:28:59Really matches existing heights for those one

2:29:04Story warehouses where they have the sign

2:29:07On the top and again in industrial zones. You are permitted if you have a 20 meter high building

2:29:13To have one sign at the top of a building if it's not illuminated

2:29:18So this just caps the maximum height of our illuminated signs

2:29:22Other changes are proposed

2:29:24I've totally forgot to flip through this

2:29:30Other signs that are being um changes that are being proposed

2:29:34Um are some deletions of defined terms that are not found in the bylaw

2:29:38Just doing control f and trying to find some things in the bylaw

2:29:41um or replace

2:29:43Just found some

2:29:45Terms that weren't in there

2:29:48Add

2:29:49I already mentioned that one amend the section that requires mto approval to be within the mto control area

2:29:57Other than just within 40

2:29:59400 meters of the handland in stress way the mto mto control area actually goes up

2:30:06Which to pass the curling club and um

2:30:09So any sign facing or within 400 meters

2:30:14This will require either a note or approval from the mto

2:30:19A dimension was missing

2:30:22In a chart for the maximum height of a ground sign for a vehicle sales establishment

2:30:28Seven meters was put in there. It's consistent with every other maximum height of a ground sign when placed six meters back from a street line

2:30:37and

2:30:38There were missing street names and directions in a chart

2:30:42for the location of identified accessible sidewalk routes

2:30:47And those were just filled in

2:30:49Um, they were blank before

2:30:52So that is what's being proposed

2:30:55And our next steps are to compile any council and public feedback

2:31:00I haven't received any comments other than does this affect my current project and the answer was no

2:31:07And just for council's awareness

2:31:10the most

2:31:12Um

2:31:14variances that are requested where

2:31:17staff really

2:31:18Um does not recommend approval is from develop developers who are wishing development signs

2:31:25on properties prior to any council approval

2:31:28so staff has

2:31:30Constantly discouraging that from different developers

2:31:33And also taller ground signs are another one and larger face to science, but really

2:31:40We've had about seven or eight variances per year

2:31:43they are for

2:31:45businesses where it's very difficult to meet

2:31:48The regulations due to maybe roof pitch

2:31:52could be one, um

2:31:55A property

2:31:57The salt toast gym

2:32:00It didn't have any regulations in park zones

2:32:03So that was a property that needed a variance. So really there are scope to properties where

2:32:08They really have difficulties meeting it, but other than that, I haven't received any feedback. So thank you

2:32:16Thanks for your your presentation. We appreciate it

2:32:20would uh

2:32:21Would a councillor just be at least willing to just because it's a to receive only this is for feedback today. So uh galler and alt

2:32:28Thank you. Uh, we'll move and second that

2:32:31um, and then uh

2:32:33Is there any kind of feedback that you'd like to give uh to staff from us then as they go away and

2:32:39consider anything further

2:32:42Boussatil, please

2:32:44Yes, thank you for the presentation. Just a question. Um, if there if uh, uh

2:32:50A sign doesn't fit any of these changes. Is there

2:32:55grandfathering is there

2:32:57A process would they ask for a variance? Is that what the process would be?

2:33:03Yes, when a sign

2:33:04None of the regulations in the bylaw

2:33:07Are really proposed to be changed. They've found to be working. But yes when a sign doesn't fit or can't meet the regulations

2:33:14They do come to staff first

2:33:16To see if it's a supportable sign staff works with the applicant to come to

2:33:23um a sign that really meets the intent of the bylaw and then we can do a variance by delegated authority

2:33:30And again seven or eight or year about and if there's really a sign that staff doesn't support

2:33:36Then the applicant and the applicant wants to move forward. Then we bring it to council for approval

2:33:42or refusal

2:33:44decision

2:33:46Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Busuttil

2:33:50So maybe I'll just I'll just throw out my

2:33:54My my sort of stuff that I I sometimes hear and

2:33:57So the first one is and and councillor Busuttil brought it up perfectly is

2:34:02I

2:34:02This is just my own opinion. I I don't want

2:34:06I don't want to ever see

2:34:08Like an sv law and bmo sign in the hand and creep business park issue come back to council

2:34:13That's just my personal opinion. I don't like it came here. I don't know why it came here. I mean

2:34:19personally

2:34:20council council

2:34:21Approved it. It's fine

2:34:24In my opinion, you know, it's totally fine

2:34:27Uh, is is are we fixing that kind of stuff here?

2:34:29Like I that I just want you to dumb it down for me

2:34:32Like I I hope that that kind of stuff doesn't have to be a problem for staff and ever come to

2:34:37committee of adjustment or

2:34:39Delegated authority or to us like I think in those settings. I just want to make sure like me personally that that's just allowed

2:34:46Is that what you're fixing here or no?

2:34:48Yeah to the mayor. Um, actually no, we are not fixing that. Um

2:34:54Let me explain

2:34:55Okay, in an industrial zones though, we could take that back definitely and um come back to you

2:35:05Um in an industrial zones signage is permitted on the first and second story

2:35:10the unfortunate thing in this industry for this property

2:35:14is that

2:35:17As feel that building has three stories where that means only one sign is permitted on the top story

2:35:26But again, we're limiting the height to 12 meters which on the first or second story that would

2:35:33I did look at that building. I think it is around the 12 meter height. So staff can take that back

2:35:39Okay, well, this is this is a this is a time for opinions and for comments. So I just

2:35:45I just I can't stand that kind of stuff that it's a problem personally like

2:35:50It's in a business area. It's in an employment area. It's not bothering anybody

2:35:55So I just like for me to actually promote an atmosphere of sort of business friendliness and

2:36:02We want you to be seeing that you're here along a highway in an industrial

2:36:06Sorry employment zone like that

2:36:09I just I just want to say my comments on the record that that should be very much allowed

2:36:14Very much easy in my in my personal perspective. So there's my comments for you to take away on that

2:36:19And then I want to do something on the flip side

2:36:21I really like what you're trying to do in regards to the sort of less on the residential side. I actually think that's great

2:36:29I want to just poke a little bit more at the idea of the signage on the back

2:36:34And you gave the kind of the lows and gordon kind of those those little area those little kind of commercial areas

2:36:40Um, can we in our sign bylaw can we actually mandate that they have a shut off at a certain time?

2:36:49So those signs are illuminated up until

2:36:5311 o'clock and at 11 o'clock

2:36:56If it's facing a residential area, it's off like no one's coming there anyways

2:37:01So like I don't understand why it has to be on so can we can we actually mandate that in a sign bylaw?

2:37:07To the mayor, yes, we could we could add a note for those properties

2:37:12That directly about I mean the property line the backyard touches the property line of the parking lot

2:37:19Yes, we could mandate that

2:37:21Okay, so I I'm putting my comments on the record right now. I would I want that I mean it depends on my colleagues

2:37:28But I want that I so

2:37:30My question then would be to you what happens to the existing commercial that has that in place today?

2:37:36Will they then be forced to?

2:37:38You know implement or buy technology or electrical shutoffs and timers

2:37:44What happens to the existing ones that are there? Yeah

2:37:47to the mayor

2:37:49Um, they could be grandfather, but can we take that back and discuss that definitely? Okay, and then my final thing

2:37:55I've mentioned this only once before several several years ago

2:37:59And so I know it's very particular

2:38:03But very particular but Douglas street downtown. Okay Douglas street downtown is a

2:38:09commercial area, but it's also like

2:38:13It's one that is used often for films and for television and it's a this quaint little street that can be attractive

2:38:20so are we gonna are we gonna

2:38:24Are we gonna restrict sort of neon signs and large commercial signs that would kind of go along Douglas street or?

2:38:32Some of our other kind of heritage

2:38:35Sort of areas that that are in our downtown core, especially

2:38:39Is there I mean the western hotel is a perfect one where it has the the wraparound neon?

2:38:44I remember that coming to council actually. I think we we voted to allow that

2:38:48I kind of like that. It's kind of neat, but but there's some areas where

2:38:53I don't know it just it just for me if we try to keep it

2:38:58keep the signage quaint and

2:39:00I know it's the exact opposite. I just said about like business friendliness. I know it's exact opposite

2:39:05But I'm just trying to I'm just trying to make sure that we don't have

2:39:09You know a street that's just full of flashing neon signs and stuff like that that can especially like on Douglas street

2:39:14That you know a quaint little street like that. So where are you on that kind of stuff?

2:39:19To the merit there is nothing in the sign by law that

2:39:24Regulates area a specific street or a district

2:39:30It was not do you know if do you know if 2021?

2:39:34pardon it was not done in 2021 and yeah

2:39:37Do you know if there's bias anywhere?

2:39:41that do you have restrictions on

2:39:44In the in a bia geographical area that have restrictions on signage

2:39:48It's in the merit. I do not know but I have a couple of ideas what municipalities to look at for that

2:39:55I I see other staff saying something

2:39:58Go ahead. I'll just jump in to mayor Guthrie. We'll take this back and and take a look at it through the review

2:40:07We are also doing the downtown heritage conservation district as well, which would have

2:40:12recommendations going forward for that type of thing so we can take a look at that project and and come back with you

2:40:20with a with a response at the decision meeting

2:40:24Okay, and I think I'm right when I say this

2:40:28all those

2:40:30cannabis stores

2:40:32They have to buy provincial law be covered. They're they're

2:40:35Front-facing streets have to be completely covered, right?

2:40:39That's not a city thing. That's a very much thing, right? Yes. Yeah

2:40:44And I know it goes against the sign by law regulations what I feel about that. That's fine

2:40:50um

2:40:53One extra thing and then I'm done. Thanks everybody

2:40:56I was at

2:40:57the Ontario BIA conference a couple years ago

2:41:02and

2:41:04Very interesting

2:41:06The BIA and I forget where it was but a bia actually restricted

2:41:11What advertisements were allowed in their downtown?

2:41:16um in their bia district

2:41:19From a signage point of view so that it would only promote the local ma pop shops and stuff in the downtown

2:41:26um

2:41:27Is there is there an actual bylaw that exists that we could

2:41:31Look to that so for instance you have a

2:41:35A bus stop, you know a bus shelter in the downtown

2:41:39And instead of a company that's being promoted

2:41:42That's somewhere else or a large conglomerate that's being promoted

2:41:46The signage that's only allowed there is actually signage for businesses and services in the downtown

2:41:52It is that allowed

2:41:58Yeah through the mayor so we'll take a look at and bias have rules and regulations certain

2:42:03Towns when you think of bamf and others have those type of regulations. We can take a look at it

2:42:07Maybe even through the heritage conservation district

2:42:09um

2:42:10But we want to focus that the intent of this was really the administrative update to

2:42:15Reflect the bylaw that was done with all the consultation and the 2023 comprehensive bylaw

2:42:20And we didn't want to open everything up at this point in time because we've actually not had the proper then consultation for this

2:42:26so we do need to get it in line with the

2:42:292023 comprehensive zoning bylaw, but we'll take it take it back and take a look at some items, but

2:42:35The scope was on this was fairly limited. Okay, and that's fair. I don't want to open up a can of worms

2:42:39So I'm very sorry that I maybe went out of scope there. I'll revert back to the first two

2:42:45Leave leave the sv law stuff alone

2:42:48And uh, and then the automatic shut off. I like I like those two things personally. Okay. I'll be done with that goller

2:42:56Thank you worship

2:42:58Through through to staff

2:43:00I know the city has been doing work on dark skies

2:43:03So I just wanted to ask for an update on that to to see how that would line up with this coming back to council

2:43:17So through the mayor at the council goller. So the light trespass bylaw

2:43:21That you're referring to was approved by council, but I don't believe the actual bylaw itself has come back

2:43:26I think that's work that our operations team and legal is still working on but

2:43:30The the parameters have already been approved by council. So it will simply be coming back on the bylaws

2:43:36At an upcoming meeting. I'll have to get back to you on the exact timing of when we expect to be back

2:43:41Okay, well, thank you for that. Could I would it be too much to ask that when this

2:43:47Update comes back to council. There's a small section in the report that just explains how

2:43:52this signed bylaw works with the

2:43:56Dark sky review

2:43:58Because I think every time that we've had a request for for a sign come to council people say well, what about bird migration?

2:44:06And I think it's important to many community members. So I'd appreciate if that was included

2:44:11Through the mayor to council goller. Yes, certainly the operations team can work and always do work with our colleagues in planning

2:44:15So we'll make sure that they connect before this comes back to you for decision

2:44:20Perfect. Thank you. Thank you very much

2:44:22And oh, sorry go ahead just on the on the point of the the shot of I think that's a fantastic idea your worship

2:44:30Something that I did not see here that I think was a bit of a conflict when we had the the sign for the gulf little theater

2:44:37Was the measurement of the of the lumens and you know, how bright

2:44:41So is that something that that could actually be explicitly mentioned because I I did not find

2:44:47As part of this that it talked about

2:44:49Brightness levels in residential areas. Is that something that will be covered?

2:44:58Yeah, through the mayor of the council. We'll take that back and and include a paragraph in the report staff report on that as well

2:45:05Thank you so much. Thank you worship. Okay. Thank you

2:45:08All right. I took way too much time on that my apologies

2:45:11Um, I it's already been moved and seconded. I believe clerks. Yes. Okay

2:45:17I will call the vote then because it's just to receive comments at this time

2:45:20So is there anyone against receiving the this report?

2:45:26Nobody, okay, that's great. Okay. Um, counselor Gibson isn't uh

2:45:38Here tonight and we were looking for him to do the bylaws. I might uh,

2:45:43just go to

2:45:44Wardmate

2:45:46Councillor Caton, would you would you be okay moving the the bylaws?

2:45:50Absolutely

2:45:52Thank you. Want to read them out for us. Sure

2:45:55That the bylaws

2:45:5721 082 through

2:46:0021 084

2:46:02and

2:46:0321 089 and

2:46:0521 090 we approved subject to section

2:46:09284

2:46:11dash 114 of the municipal act

2:46:16Thanks, uh, uh, booboo siti will second. Yes. Got lots of seconders here. Thank you

2:46:21Um, I'll call the vote then on the bylaws. Is anyone against the bylaws?

2:46:26Nope. Okay, that's unanimous. We are looking for adjournment. There are no mayor's announcements. That's good

2:46:34Uh, billings will move adjournment. Boosatil will second it

2:46:39And is there anyone against that? Let's not have a tie vote on adjournment. Okay

2:46:44All right, that passes. All right. Have a good night everybody. Thank you