Application from Van Harten Surveying Inc. on behalf of 8 Mitchell St Inc. for a Zoning By-law Amendment to change the zoning from the current Neighbourhood…

6:49:36on eight Mitchell Street

6:49:37for a proposed zoning bylaw amendment.

6:49:41We do have a few delegations.

6:49:43One did withdraw already, but is Marcel Schlaff here?

6:49:48Okay, Marcel.

6:49:50Thank you and welcome.

6:49:51And is Sarah Wutton here?

6:49:54Okay. You're in the wings, Sarah. Thank you.

6:49:56So Marcel, thank you so much.

6:49:58Now this is a little bit different.

6:49:59It is now actually five minutes.

6:50:02So you have no more than five minutes.

6:50:03You'll hear a chime at the four minute,

6:50:0530 second mark as the warning.

6:50:07And then stick around just in case any of my colleagues

6:50:10or myself have a question for you. Okay.

6:50:11Please go right ahead.

6:50:12Yeah. Mayor Grotry, councillors.

6:50:15I admire stamina and your focus.

6:50:20So I speak here on behalf of myself and my wife, Linda O'Neill.

6:50:22I live in a 1912 house without a driveway

6:50:24right across the street from the proposed development

6:50:27and have a city permit that we pay for

6:50:29to park on the street near or in front of a house

6:50:31or near a house.

6:50:34It's been pretty clear.

6:50:35There's a lot of pressure on building new housing.

6:50:36I understand that, but I want to focus on the parking issue

6:50:39which will directly affect us in a very bad way.

6:50:42So the site is bounded by what are effectively

6:50:45one lane narrow streets on both the Arthur Street North

6:50:49and Mitchell Street side with street parking on one side

6:50:51that is, that means there's a very serious

6:50:53physical constraint and it's not sure that

6:50:55everybody really appreciates that

6:50:57from when the staff reports as well as

6:50:59what discussions were so far.

6:51:02So in this context, the structures which propose

6:51:0540 or more bedrooms are in fact of a very high density

6:51:08in the context of our neighborhood.

6:51:10And in that, and this causes us great concern

6:51:16also going back to some of the things that were said earlier

6:51:19at the beginning of the meeting for almost six hours

6:51:21and go back, Councillor Gibson for instance

6:51:22and the anecdotal evidence that he's provided.

6:51:24This is already our reality as well

6:51:26and it's gonna get a lot worse because they proposed

6:51:29four by three, four times three parking spots plus now

6:51:32proposed another additional four spots opening to Mitchell

6:51:35and now opinion completely insufficient

6:51:37because with 40 plus bedroom there could easily be 20 cars.

6:51:41People do have cars, even students have cars.

6:51:43That's a reality and they have to go somewhere.

6:51:46So also of these 12 parking spots,

6:51:51four of them are actually stacked in front of a garage.

6:51:53So the garages are four parking spots

6:51:55and there's a parking spot in front of each garage

6:51:57and another one side, so it's effectively 12 parking spots.

6:52:01But since they're stacked, I think the garage will be used

6:52:03for storage and there's also been no provision being made

6:52:06for bicycle storage or garbage can storage.

6:52:09So and then there's the four additional sites

6:52:12that are proposed opening towards Mitchell Street

6:52:15by the developers but we don't see any guarantee

6:52:18that these will stay there because our concern

6:52:19is that in the long run the developer will try

6:52:22to develop also the Mitchell Street site

6:52:24with even more buildings going to the GRCA

6:52:27and maybe to the province to make this happen.

6:52:30So this is a really strong concern for us in the long run

6:52:34and let's say the construction goes ahead,

6:52:36the parking problems will be exacerbated from day one

6:52:39because of course any trades people in construction work

6:52:42also have to park somewhere and this will create

6:52:44problems and acrimony from day one as the enforcement

6:52:47of extent parking regulations for now

6:52:48is two hours limit per day is at best already marginal

6:52:52and I sense that if there would be parking tickets issued

6:52:55the developer might just see this as the cost of being

6:52:57doing business and reimburse the workers.

6:52:59That has all been done before as well, it's nothing new.

6:53:02So therefore I would like all of you to look

6:53:05at the communications I've had before,

6:53:08the images I sent you last one as an example last night.

6:53:13This is already our reality and it's getting worse

6:53:15and there will be absolutely catastrophic

6:53:17if the scales forward.

6:53:18So even before adding another 40 plus bedroom

6:53:20delinquent to the street we already have a situation

6:53:22where oftentimes we come home from work after five o'clock

6:53:25in the afternoon or in weekends after running errands,

6:53:28shopping, so any other kind of activity at any time of day

6:53:33and we find the whole street is full with cars

6:53:34and there's nowhere for us to go and this means we then

6:53:37have to park hundreds of meters away

6:53:39and haul our loads back to our house just so that other people

6:53:41either have driveways but park on the street

6:53:43out of convenience or who do not even live there

6:53:46can park there effectively for free at times

6:53:48observed for days on end.

6:53:51So this is particularly galling in the winter

6:53:52when we often spend considerable time and physical effort

6:53:54to dig out a parking space from the snow

6:53:57only to see it occupied by others who again

6:53:59do not even live here and neither one of us

6:54:01is getting any longer, younger.

6:54:03My wife in particular and myself,

6:54:04we wanna face some physical issues here in the long run.

6:54:08So at minimum we therefore need implementation

6:54:10and enforcement of a residence only parking zone

6:54:12from five o'clock in the afternoon to eight o'clock

6:54:14in the morning every day on a substantial section

6:54:16of the street and this not please after another study

6:54:19to be completed maybe by next year or 2026 or whenever

6:54:23we need this very soon, we need this before anything happens

6:54:26there in terms of construction for the development.

6:54:29I wanna point out that many other cities in Canada

6:54:31and the worldwide are doing this and have been doing this

6:54:33so why can't we do it in growth?

6:54:34What's the problem here?

6:54:35I don't get it, right?

6:54:37This is, we're not asking the world here,

6:54:38we're just asking that the heritage buildings

6:54:41without dry face in the downtown corn

6:54:43and maybe five to 15% of them get this privilege.

6:54:47So I hope you see our problem and help us

6:54:50to keep our house livable for us and our neighbors

6:54:53who have faced the same issues

6:54:55and I'll yield the floor to my fellow neighbors, thank you.

6:54:59Thank you, just one second, it looks like

6:55:01Councillor Boussatel has a follow up for you,

6:55:02just one second, go ahead.

6:55:03Thank you very much and through the mayor,

6:55:05I didn't quite catch the residents only parking zone,

6:55:09can you give me a little bit more information on that?

6:55:12Well, on Arthur Street,

6:55:13no one's gonna stretch between Aro-Mosa

6:55:15and the North Street Bridge,

6:55:17there are five or six houses which are heritage homes

6:55:20built over a hundred years ago, we do not have driveways,

6:55:22so we have to park on the street.

6:55:24So the solution for us would be to make

6:55:28certain areas or stretches of the street,

6:55:30maybe with marked up spaces,

6:55:34parking spots for residents that actually live there

6:55:36and own the homes and have lived there for a long time.

6:55:39For instance, in the city of Toronto,

6:55:40this is normal, people do this all the time,

6:55:42this is what the city of Toronto does.

6:55:44And this also, of course, would have to be enforced, right?

6:55:47This doesn't have to be an exact spot,

6:55:49but for instance, in the stretch,

6:55:51in front of our houses and my neighbor,

6:55:54Sarah Wooden's house and further down

6:55:55this issue of several houses,

6:55:57this would require some signage and enforcement,

6:56:01the cost of this, and of course,

6:56:03we would continue to pay that,

6:56:04we'll also be prepared to pay a bit more

6:56:06if that would be what would be required.

6:56:09But for us, we cannot keep living there

6:56:12if we can't even bring our groceries home

6:56:15and have to walk 200 metres to the snow,

6:56:18my wife's gonna be 74 next year,

6:56:21I'm also not getting any younger

6:56:23and we were gonna facing some issues here

6:56:25and we're not the only ones,

6:56:26so we're just asking some compassion here.

6:56:30Thank you.

6:56:33Great, thank you.

6:56:34Just before you go, Councillor Goller

6:56:36also has a question.

6:56:38Thank you, Worship, and through yourself.

6:56:40Thank you for your presentation.

6:56:41And just to finish the clarification

6:56:44to Councillor Busetil's question,

6:56:47the city gives you a pass,

6:56:49but you don't have a guaranteed spot.

6:56:51Is that correct?

6:56:52Yeah, correct, but right, yeah.

6:56:53Not a guaranteed spot,

6:56:54somewhere on the city, the street,

6:56:5610 metres, 20 metres away,

6:56:58sometimes in front of the house,

6:57:00but not necessarily.

6:57:01The problem is that we pay for it,

6:57:04but it's never enforced.

6:57:06Very, very rarely enforced already

6:57:07and it's gonna get a lot worse

6:57:09if we have another 10, 12, 20 cars.

6:57:11And for reference, how far have you had to go

6:57:14to actually find a spot on those days

6:57:16when there's nothing on Arthur Street?

6:57:18Well, worst case, sometimes up on King Street

6:57:20or all the way down to Wolfhound Park.

6:57:22Okay.

6:57:23It happens.

6:57:24Okay, thank you for that, I appreciate it.

6:57:26Thank you, Worship.

6:57:27I think you and Karan just has a follow-up as well.

6:57:29Sorry, sir, just one second.

6:57:31Sorry, sir, lots of questions.

6:57:33Maybe it's because you're the first delegate,

6:57:34but you mentioned that your experience

6:57:38even during the day,

6:57:39so this isn't just overnight parking for residents.

6:57:41And I know in Essex Street, Nottingham,

6:57:44a lot of streets that border the downtown

6:57:48have employees of downtown businesses

6:57:50using side streets to avoid paying for,

6:57:53you know, use parking facilities.

6:57:54That is exactly what happens.

6:57:55You often find people, you often see people.

6:57:56Is that what's happening?

6:57:57Yeah.

6:57:58That's what I'm trying to validate.

6:57:59Yeah.

6:58:00The other parking regulation is that

6:58:01there's a two-hour parking once per day

6:58:04from eight o'clock in the morning

6:58:06until five o'clock in the evening on weekdays.

6:58:10But we see that people park there all day long

6:58:13with no consequence.

6:58:15The enforcement is very spotty.

6:58:16And I understand that because the resources the city

6:58:18can put towards parking for us are probably also limited.

6:58:22But this is very galling because we pay for it.

6:58:24We live there, and lots of people who don't live there

6:58:27park there for free all day and just get away with it.

6:58:30So is it your observation since you're there in person

6:58:34that they park and then they're walking away,

6:58:37like they're walking towards downtown?

6:58:38Exactly.

6:58:39This is becoming a parking lot for downtown.

6:58:41And it has been like that for a long time.

6:58:44I thank you.

6:58:45I look at the pictures I send out.

6:58:46That picture tells us more than 1,000 words, right?

6:58:49There's a link to the website with, I don't know,

6:58:5230, 40 pictures that I've taken over the last few years

6:58:54and it's gotten worse and worse and worse.

6:58:57Great. Thank you.

6:58:59And for real this time, there's no more questions.

6:59:01So thank you very much.

6:59:04Okay, Sarah, you were in the wings

6:59:06and is Martin Cleaver here?

6:59:08Okay, and you're very ready.

6:59:09Thank you.

6:59:11Sarah, welcome and the five minutes is for you

6:59:14and there's a clicker there to move through your slides,

6:59:17okay?

6:59:18Those are for Martin, but yes, okay.

6:59:20Oh, okay, perfect.

6:59:20Yes, good evening, Mayor Guthrie and city counselors.

6:59:23I'd like to thank you for giving me this opportunity

6:59:25to express my concerns about the current

6:59:28and future parking situation on Arthur Street North.

6:59:32As a longstanding resident of Arthur Street,

6:59:34I am deeply concerned that the proposed

6:59:36Mitchell Street development will exacerbate

6:59:38an already unsustainable parking situation

6:59:41that will severely disrupt the quality of life

6:59:43for existing residents as well as renters

6:59:45and tenants in the area.

6:59:47As Marcel alluded to, there is simply no way

6:59:50to fit any more cars on Arthur Street North.

6:59:53This lack of availability often leaves us

6:59:55and the many tenants who live on Arthur Street

6:59:58struggling to find parking near our homes,

7:00:00especially during peak times and when there's snow.

7:00:03So without designated parking for existing residents

7:00:06and tenants, there will be heightened competition

7:00:08for limited spaces.

7:00:09This will result in added stress, potential conflicts

7:00:12and a negative impact on our community relations.

7:00:15Residents will face increased anxiety

7:00:17about finding parking, long walks to carry groceries

7:00:20and the frustration of maintaining cleared parking spots

7:00:22in the winter only to have them taken by others.

7:00:26If council chooses to allow densification in an area

7:00:30whose parking infrastructure cannot support it,

7:00:33it's my opinion that the only reasonable

7:00:35and respectful thing to do is to provide those of us

7:00:38who own heritage homes without driveways,

7:00:41permitted parking as Marcel had suggested

7:00:43as a reasonable price on a stretch of Arthur Street

7:00:46between Aramosa and Norwich,

7:00:48between 5 p.m. and 8 a.m. 24 seven every day.

7:00:53This would ensure fair access to parking

7:00:55for longtime residents and tenants

7:00:57who rely on street parking.

7:00:59And then just in closing, I'd like to thank the developers

7:01:02for revising their drawings and adding

7:01:04for additional parking spots on the Mitchell Street Access.

7:01:07I do have a question though,

7:01:09and I'm not sure how to go about asking a question,

7:01:11but maybe I'll direct it to the mayor

7:01:13and then you can talk to city staff.

7:01:16Are these parking spots on the title

7:01:18such that they are tied to the development?

7:01:26Are you finished?

7:01:26Yeah, I'm finished.

7:01:27Okay, just wanna make sure, yeah.

7:01:28So thank you, and don't walk away

7:01:29just in case there's a question,

7:01:30but to just to quickly answer you back,

7:01:33we will take any kind of questions under consideration,

7:01:36and then if we choose, we can ask them to staff

7:01:38once all the delegations are done.

7:01:40Oh, okay.

7:01:41Okay, for sure, yeah.

7:01:42Is there any questions though for this delegate?

7:01:45Seeing none, so thank you very much, sir.

7:01:47Thank you.

7:01:48Martin Cleaver is right coming up here,

7:01:51is the Noros here, okay?

7:01:53You're in the wings.

7:01:56Martin, and whenever you're ready.

7:02:02Okay, let's.

7:02:14All right, good evening all.

7:02:16Whatever you take from the presentation today,

7:02:18every neighbor I've spoken to has requested

7:02:20some sort of pause of the project.

7:02:22We hope that the developers revisions

7:02:24would address issues,

7:02:26but I think there's no room with the master plan,

7:02:28and I think that they can get a better return

7:02:30on investment and address parking

7:02:32with what I'm gonna suggest.

7:02:34I'm Martin Cleaver, I moved to Guelph

7:02:36because we fell in love with the neighborhoods

7:02:38of Old World Charm.

7:02:40Let's talk about the top mandate.

7:02:42Ontario's directive is unrelenting and clear.

7:02:44We need many more housing units.

7:02:47If you know our neighborhood, you'll know it's charming.

7:02:49There are historic Guelph streets.

7:02:51It's a tourist attraction.

7:02:52It's on heritage walks.

7:02:53It's an eclectic mix,

7:02:55and no big structure is the same as anything else.

7:02:57It's quite unlike any subdivision.

7:03:00Placemaking is important.

7:03:01The Guelph official plan to 2024 says

7:03:04that places should be beautiful.

7:03:06Character is key.

7:03:07The phrase was mentioned 53 times.

7:03:09The house we rebuilt, a 1903 red brick.

7:03:13Yes, it would be cheaper to knock it down,

7:03:15but there's no way to treat a century home.

7:03:17We extended it.

7:03:21Character, no suburban, semi-cookie-cutter design

7:03:25will fit this neighborhood.

7:03:26Just one of these, garage-fronted buildings

7:03:29would be a mind-numbing disappointment,

7:03:32let alone sing four.

7:03:33That would be four garages, four porches.

7:03:35The OPA in 2024 says garages

7:03:38should not dominate streetscapes.

7:03:40They should incorporate real aims and impact,

7:03:44minimize the impact of driveways on the pedestrian realm.

7:03:47Garage first is a cookie-cutter look

7:03:50that is okay for people who buy into subdivisions.

7:03:53It doesn't belong here.

7:03:54But let's assume we can get some lipstick

7:03:56to fix the cladding, so fix the garages and roof lines.

7:04:01The presented plan misses an opportunity

7:04:04to achieve quotas for more density

7:04:06without messing up things we care about.

7:04:08I propose a change of approach.

7:04:10Maybe I'm not gonna be popular for wondering

7:04:12if we can fit more people than proposed, but hear me out.

7:04:15People don't complain, for example,

7:04:17that mass transit moves too many people.

7:04:19They care that roads make them suffer with congestion.

7:04:22So I question, why not park underneath?

7:04:25Our SEM is the best option for these 40 units.

7:04:29Are the constraints of RL1 limiting the eight Mitchell lands?

7:04:34A recent four ADU paper said that RL1

7:04:37is supposed to be a gentle density tour for typical,

7:04:40say 50-foot single-family lots, but eight Mitchell is not small.

7:04:44Mitchell lands, if they were rectangular,

7:04:47would be 100 foot by 150 foot.

7:04:51Gentle density lots are between 25 foot and 80 foot.

7:04:57And then the location.

7:04:58This site is very special.

7:05:00It's highly walkable to train stations,

7:05:03to shops, to restaurants.

7:05:04Guelph has an average walk score of 40.

7:05:07Most errands would require a car.

7:05:09These lands are 94.

7:05:11It's a walk-as-paradise and also on a cycle network.

7:05:14Great for students to leave their cars parked until the weekend.

7:05:19So what's with the ex...

7:05:21Hang on, that's gone.

7:05:24So what's with the egg slicer?

7:05:26When converting city outskirts lands,

7:05:28RL1 slicing seems to be a fine tool for standardizing pricing.

7:05:32But RL1 is the wrong tool for this job.

7:05:36I propose that these Mitchell lands are wasted

7:05:39on gentle density or a missing little.

7:05:41The plan for semi-detached structures like this

7:05:45loses the opportunity for shared walls,

7:05:47combined driveways and structured parking.

7:05:50Overstuffing gentle density can't handle parking.

7:05:54The developer's revisions show that this won't work.

7:05:58ADUs aren't designed for complexes.

7:06:01It's for homes like my own

7:06:02where an ample driveway can handle another car.

7:06:06So think bravely, wouldn't we be better with a low-rise?

7:06:10How about a courtyard?

7:06:13Or something else perpendicular to the lock, thought.

7:06:16Our neighbor is an accredited architecture conservatory expert.

7:06:20He noted that Cumberland apartments in the city of Hamilton

7:06:23won urban designs and architecture awards.

7:06:25I quote, I could see two such apartments like this

7:06:28on the Mitchell Street with a driveway

7:06:30in between leading to a rear parking lot.

7:06:33But there are local examples.

7:06:37Take Sixdale High.

7:06:39However, Add a sweeping drive, a nice front garden,

7:06:42and underground parking is surely easier than basement apartments

7:06:46to remediate after a flood.

7:06:48I'm sure that Spruce Living has professional rigor

7:06:51to finding and servicing quality tenants.

7:06:53We welcome good neighbors from all walks of life.

7:07:01If you make it bigger, you'll make more money.

7:07:06And we want something that fits the neighborhood.

7:07:10So, Councillors, please consider

7:07:12engage the community and developer to co-collect.

7:07:15Great, and thank you very much for your delegation.

7:07:21Appreciate it.

7:07:22Just under the water there, so thank you.

7:07:25Is there any questions for this delegate?

7:07:28Seeing none, thank you very much.

7:07:30Thank you.

7:07:33Is Susan Shepherd here?

7:07:36OK, come on down, Susan.

7:07:38And is Matthew Glass here?

7:07:41Did I miss somebody?

7:07:44Oh, Lenore, I'm sorry.

7:07:46That's my bad.

7:07:48I did it only once, so I'm sorry.

7:07:52Yeah, sorry, Lenore, and so sorry, everybody else.

7:07:54Now you're all in the wings.

7:07:56But Lenore, my apologies.

7:07:58You go right ahead whenever you're ready.

7:08:00Very good, thank you.

7:08:01Mayor Guthrie, my name is Lenore Ross.

7:08:03I live at 175 Arthur Street, North.

7:08:06And I'm immediately adjacent to the proposed development.

7:08:10I'm a professional planner.

7:08:12And like the golf planning staff,

7:08:14no firsthand through my work, the pressures that

7:08:17municipalities are under from the province to provide housing.

7:08:22And there are timelines that the housing needs

7:08:24to be provided in and the decisions that need

7:08:26to be made about housing.

7:08:29I'm also keenly aware of the legislative framework

7:08:31that the province is imposed to allow development

7:08:34and the financial incentives that the federal government

7:08:37provide.

7:08:40And the development community, like Spruce Living

7:08:42and the other developer groups that were here earlier,

7:08:45are simply responding to the local bylaws that are in place

7:08:51and proposing the kind of infill development

7:08:53that council, excuse me, is considering today.

7:08:57I support housing.

7:08:58I support housing in my neighborhood.

7:09:01I support housing in my professional life.

7:09:04And I support housing in all different forms, dense housing,

7:09:09new housing in Greenfield.

7:09:11But I don't support housing at any cost.

7:09:14And I think that's where we're going with some

7:09:16of the provincial legislation that we have.

7:09:19And it's unfortunate.

7:09:23Municipalities need to have broad responsibilities.

7:09:28And they need to think of all of the responsibilities

7:09:31and all the goals that they have.

7:09:34A number of you have talked about other objectives,

7:09:36like climate and the environment tonight.

7:09:39And I think those need to be wrapped into housing decisions

7:09:42as well.

7:09:44You'll hear a lot about parking.

7:09:46And we've heard a lot about parking already tonight.

7:09:49And certainly, that is a major concern of my neighborhood.

7:09:55I have very big concerns about trees

7:09:57that I expressed at the last meeting.

7:09:59And I will address those privately.

7:10:02I don't think I should have to do those privately.

7:10:04But I will address those privately with the developer group.

7:10:08I will be back for the private tree bylaw before council.

7:10:14So you've heard a lot about parking concerns.

7:10:17And I would ask you to look at your draft bylaw that's

7:10:21in your council agenda package.

7:10:24And specifically, subsection 7 on page 639.

7:10:30The bylaw that's proposed has some wording in there

7:10:34that I have some concerns about.

7:10:37The wording says, despite section 5113E,

7:10:42an additional driveway providing access

7:10:44to the four supplementary parking spaces

7:10:46may be provided off Mitchell Street.

7:10:49This is permissive language that allows the development

7:10:54to have parking.

7:10:55It doesn't require the development to have parking.

7:10:58And it will not obligate the developer to provide it.

7:11:03You've heard that this is a problem for our neighborhood.

7:11:05And I would ask that one of you make an amendment to the bylaw

7:11:09as it's proposed to change that may to shall.

7:11:17Is it for my presentation?

7:11:18OK, thank you so much.

7:11:20Is there a follow-up on that?

7:11:22There isn't.

7:11:23So you're very clear.

7:11:24Thank you so much.

7:11:25Thank you.

7:11:27OK, for real this time, it is Susan.

7:11:31And then Matthew is.

7:11:34OK, thank you.

7:11:35You're up next.

7:11:35OK, Susan, welcome.

7:11:37And whenever you're ready, go right ahead.

7:11:40Thank you, Your Worship, and members of council.

7:11:42My name is Susan Schappert.

7:11:43I am a resident on Arthur Street North.

7:11:46But I'm also a professional heritage planner.

7:11:48I work for another municipality in southern Ontario.

7:11:51I'm a registered professional planner,

7:11:53member of the Canadian Institute of Planners,

7:11:55and a former president of the Canadian Association

7:11:57of Heritage Professionals.

7:11:59You've heard a lot, as Lenore said, about parking.

7:12:02And you've heard about Lenore's concerns about the trees.

7:12:05And what I'm here to speak to tonight

7:12:07is about concern about this development's impact

7:12:11on the overall heritage character of our neighborhood.

7:12:15As a heritage planner, I walk the walk, and I'll talk the talk.

7:12:19And I feel that our neighborhood is

7:12:24worthy of consideration as a heritage conservation

7:12:26district.

7:12:28The Arthur Street North neighborhood

7:12:29is listed in the City of Guelph's Cultural Heritage Action

7:12:32Plan as a medium priority CHL, or Cultural Heritage Landscape.

7:12:38We understand that the city has commitments

7:12:40to proceed with heritage conservation district studies

7:12:44in a number of other areas.

7:12:46And there's currently no budget available for other heritage

7:12:50areas.

7:12:51And so at this time, we are proposing

7:12:53to move forward with a community-led Heritage

7:12:55Conservation District study, community-funded Heritage

7:13:00Conservation District study, in order

7:13:02to provide clear and consistent guidelines for future development

7:13:07in our area.

7:13:08It's an unfortunate circumstance that heritage conservation,

7:13:11in many ways, is a reactive tool.

7:13:14When things are going great, nobody

7:13:16sees the need to put restrictive bylaws in place.

7:13:21My personal opinion, these bylaws aren't necessarily

7:13:23restrictive.

7:13:24They're all about managing change.

7:13:26Recent changes in our neighborhood

7:13:30have come up with a number of lots

7:13:33that are available for development.

7:13:35It's not just 8 Mitchell Street, which we certainly

7:13:37have concerns with, but there are at least four other properties

7:13:40on Arthur Street North that will come up for development

7:13:43within a relatively short time frame.

7:13:46And so we'd like to, I guess, level the playing field

7:13:49by putting out a very clear and consistent message

7:13:53to developers who would like to develop in our community.

7:13:59Primarily, I think, before 2020, we

7:14:02were a community that was not development-driven.

7:14:06People bought homes in our area because they

7:14:08wanted to live in them, not to redevelop the lots.

7:14:12But that's changing, and so we need to change with it.

7:14:15Our area has a very eclectic mix of housing,

7:14:18both from singles and semis, and many, many multi-unit properties

7:14:25as well.

7:14:25And so this is not a case against density.

7:14:28As Lenore said, I support housing.

7:14:31I support multi-unit development on this particular property

7:14:35at Mitchell Street.

7:14:36But I also ask for the developers

7:14:38to have more respect and consideration

7:14:41for the existing context of where they're coming in to develop,

7:14:46both in regards to the parking and the trees,

7:14:49and also the historic character of our neighborhood.

7:14:52And so I would put before you a recommendation coming

7:14:57from a constituent that the city support a community led

7:15:03and community funded Heritage Conservation District

7:15:06study for the Arthur Street North neighborhood,

7:15:09but also to consider implementing a Heritage Conservation

7:15:12District study area bylaw under section 40.1 of the Ontario Heritage

7:15:18Act, which pauses development within our area for up to a year

7:15:23in order for the municipality to determine

7:15:26what the cultural heritage value and heritage attributes of this area

7:15:30actually are.

7:15:31Thank you very much.

7:15:33Thank you for your delegation.

7:15:35Is there a fault?

7:15:36Yes, there is.

7:15:36There's two, Councillor Bousetil and Councillor Caron.

7:15:41Yeah, come on.

7:15:42Thank you very much.

7:15:43And through the matter, thank you very much for your delegation.

7:15:46Just wondering, you've presented a proposal for us to consider.

7:15:50Have you had conversations with the staff at all about this idea?

7:15:56Through you, Mr. Mayor?

7:15:57Yes.

7:15:58So we've started at the very beginning

7:16:02by forming a residence association to undertake a group that

7:16:06actually has the basis to fundraise for a Heritage Conservation

7:16:09District study.

7:16:10So we've reached out to our award counselors,

7:16:12and we've also reached out to Heritage Planning staff,

7:16:14which I have a meeting set with Heritage Planning staff

7:16:17for later this week to speak with them.

7:16:19I know that a community-led Heritage Conservation District

7:16:22study would be a new thing for Guelph.

7:16:24And to be honest, it would be a new thing for me as well.

7:16:27But there are other municipalities in Ontario who have done it.

7:16:30And I would say that the City of Toronto is probably

7:16:32the leader in that process as they have their own policy about how

7:16:36to move forward with community-based Heritage

7:16:39Conservation Districts.

7:16:42And so, yes, I fully desire to speak to Heritage Planning staff.

7:16:49And I'm available for any questions at any time

7:16:52from any members of council as well.

7:16:54Thank you.

7:16:55And through the mayor, you answered my second question

7:16:57about other municipalities.

7:16:58So thank you for that.

7:17:02Thank you.

7:17:02Karan Den O'Rourke.

7:17:06I had a similar question because I'm really intrigued by this.

7:17:09But I know we have to stay on topic about the planning

7:17:14application before us.

7:17:15And I know that this section of Perth Street, or sorry,

7:17:18Arthur Street North, formerly Perth Street,

7:17:21has a relationship with the Goldy Mill across the North Street

7:17:26Bridge, which actually connected the two.

7:17:28Have you had discussions as well with that neighborhood?

7:17:34Through you, Mr. Mayor, we actually

7:17:36have quite an active kind of neighborhood email group.

7:17:39And we held a public meeting on Sunday, December the 1st

7:17:42to talk about Heritage Conservation District designation

7:17:45as a tool to help manage development, such as the one

7:17:48at 8 Mitchell Street.

7:17:51I think right now, we're looking to, I guess,

7:17:56create a manageable project for ourselves.

7:17:58A Heritage Conservation District study

7:18:01is the tool that actually determines

7:18:03where the cultural heritage value of the area

7:18:07is in terms of historic evolution.

7:18:09It's building evolution and street escape context.

7:18:12And so maybe that's something that

7:18:15would come out of a Heritage Conservation District study.

7:18:17But for now, I think we were looking primarily

7:18:20at an area bounded by the river to Aramosa Road, Del High

7:18:25Street, and then Spring Street, or the Homewood properties.

7:18:28The Homewood, yeah, rather than crossing that bridge.

7:18:31OK.

7:18:31And the reason I bring this up, even though we're

7:18:33talking about this application, is

7:18:35that you've proposed an interim control bylaw

7:18:38while that's taking place.

7:18:39So I want to align the timelines you're suggesting one year

7:18:43might be a reasonable timeline for that study, that HCD study,

7:18:47to take place.

7:18:48Is that in your experience as a heritage planner,

7:18:51at least my experience as a former chair of Heritage

7:18:54Guelph and a counselor, has been that an HCD study takes

7:18:56a lot longer than that?

7:18:59Through you, Mr. Mayor, that's what's

7:19:00permitted under the Ontario Heritage Act is one year.

7:19:04So that is what we request, what is permitted.

7:19:07Again, it's section 40.1, bracket one,

7:19:11that says that you can pass the study area for the Heritage

7:19:14District.

7:19:15I certainly agree with you.

7:19:16The process can take longer.

7:19:18But it's a good way to take a pause, especially

7:19:23in potentially adversarial or reactive situations,

7:19:28where a community would like to have more input,

7:19:31or feels threatened by a negative proposed impact

7:19:35to their neighborhood.

7:19:38And I understand there's, you said there's four lots that

7:19:40are currently either demolished and vacant and on the market,

7:19:47just on Arthur Street North.

7:19:48Is that correct?

7:19:49Four lots?

7:19:50I know of two at the very, very end, but there's also

7:19:53there's two at the end.

7:19:55There's another, sorry for interrupting,

7:19:58there are the two at the end.

7:20:01There is another property that just this weekend suffered a fire.

7:20:04And so we do assume that the damage there is significant

7:20:09enough that that property will be coming down.

7:20:11But there's also the significant vacant property

7:20:14at 221 Arthur Street North, which actually showed up

7:20:17in a presentation earlier this evening, which is actually

7:20:21a fairly large property that borders,

7:20:23that has property lines shared with Dairy, King Street,

7:20:30and Pearl, I believe.

7:20:31So any future development there will

7:20:33have a very significant impact on our community.

7:20:37Thank you.

7:20:40Thank you, and don't go anywhere.

7:20:42Councillor Allt has a question as well.

7:20:44Thank you very, very much, Ms. Schappert.

7:20:47In reading your letter, the motion that you proposed

7:20:51at the end of your letter, strikes me

7:20:53as being extremely important in your professional opinion.

7:20:56Are there any restrictions or time constraints

7:20:58that would prevent us from moving something similar tonight?

7:21:05In my professional, through you, Mr. Mayor,

7:21:07in my professional opinion, know that this

7:21:10is a tool that's available to municipal councils

7:21:13through the Ontario Heritage Act.

7:21:15And it is, in my opinion, designed

7:21:17to be used in situations such as these, where there are no other

7:21:23available tools.

7:21:25For example, 8 Mitchell Street doesn't require site plan

7:21:28control.

7:21:29There's no other tool to put, press pause on that development

7:21:34with the approval of the Zoning By-law Amendment,

7:21:37given the recent changes to provincial legislation

7:21:40by the Ford government.

7:21:41So yes, I do believe that, I think,

7:21:46is the third and fourth recommendations in my letter

7:21:49would need to go hand in hand that council would need

7:21:52to support a heritage conservation district study,

7:21:57again, being undertaken and funded by the community,

7:22:01and then to pass the Heritage Conservation District Study

7:22:05Area By-law.

7:22:08Thank you very much.

7:22:10Thank you.

7:22:12And thank you very much for delegating.

7:22:15And Matthew Glass is coming up, for finishing us off here.

7:22:21Thank you for coming, Matthew.

7:22:24And I'll turn it over to you when you're ready.

7:22:32Mr. Mayor, members of council, fellow residents of Guelph,

7:22:37my family has lived at 32 Havelock Street, just up hill

7:22:41from Wolfhawne Park, for 20 years.

7:22:44Our house was first built in 1911.

7:22:46We spent the year, since 2004, working to rebuild it.

7:22:51When we bought the property, people said,

7:22:53we should just tear it down.

7:22:55But we've worked to rebuild it in ways

7:22:57that maintain its reflection of the Wolfhawne community's

7:23:00heritage, even as we've imported additional ideas about how

7:23:04to create a comfortable, attractive, and affordable home.

7:23:07I'm in full support of my neighbor's efforts

7:23:10to address the inadequacies of the 8 Mitchell Street

7:23:14Development Proposal.

7:23:16I too think council should, at the least,

7:23:18hold off on issuing its approval for the project

7:23:21as it stands.

7:23:23I am also in full support of the Wolfhawne Park neighborhood

7:23:27being officially designated a heritage district within the

7:23:31framework of the city's secondary downtown plan

7:23:34and the Ontario Heritage Act.

7:23:37This project, as presented by the developer and supported thus

7:23:41far by city planning staff, contains at least two design

7:23:45flaws, in my mind, the parking issue, which you've heard about,

7:23:49and the rumored limitations of its modern exterior.

7:23:53I believe that the parking problem will create lasting headaches

7:23:56for the existing residents, as well as for those

7:23:58who would occupy the projected units of the 8 Mitchell

7:24:02Development.

7:24:03And I believe that the exterior design,

7:24:05if in keeping with the developers,

7:24:07other projects in southern Utah, or southern Utah, excuse me,

7:24:11I'm talking about home in southern Ontario,

7:24:14will be an eyesore sandwich within the close confines

7:24:18of the many historical buildings on Arthur and Mitchell

7:24:21Street.

7:24:22The developer might not mind this.

7:24:24Residents of the new apartments might not even mind it.

7:24:26But I think you risk creating lasting resentment

7:24:30from those who have lived in the neighborhood

7:24:31for any length of time, and who have come to appreciate

7:24:35its distinctive visual qualities.

7:24:38I think a decision to approve the project as it stands

7:24:40exposes a significant and damaging gap in the city's

7:24:44downtown planning vision.

7:24:46That gap is the result of the limited range of the city's

7:24:49focus on heritage areas, as Susan said.

7:24:53The secondary downtown plan acknowledges the exhibition

7:24:57park area, the ward, and St. George's Park as heritage

7:25:01districts deserving conservation.

7:25:03But surely our neighborhood is as distinctive

7:25:06and has as much historical integrity as those areas.

7:25:10It also sits within the significant natural landscape

7:25:13features of the Speed River and its rising embankment

7:25:16towards Delhi Street.

7:25:18Construction of this project is a significant threat

7:25:21to our neighborhoods' historical integrity

7:25:25as any facing those other heritage areas of the downtown

7:25:28core.

7:25:29Council's approval of this project as it stands

7:25:32would contradict several of the principles and objectives

7:25:35stated within the secondary plan.

7:25:37For instance, under principle one,

7:25:39celebrate what we've got.

7:25:41Quote, downtown Guelph has many assets,

7:25:44not the least of which is its rich inventory

7:25:46of historic buildings, many constructed of limestone.

7:25:50These buildings and the streets and open spaces they frame

7:25:53give downtown a unique and attractive character.

7:25:56Downtown also overlaps with historic neighborhoods

7:26:00whose qualities should be protected.

7:26:02That surely must mean the Wolfon Park neighborhood.

7:26:06The secondary plan does not call for a design hodgepodge.

7:26:09Section C of principle one says the city should maintain

7:26:14the character of the distinct heritage areas within downtown.

7:26:18In addition, principle eight, built beautifully,

7:26:21states as an objective that as downtown continues to develop,

7:26:26it will be important to ensure new buildings respect

7:26:29and complement the architecture and materials

7:26:32of surrounding historically significant buildings

7:26:35through policies, standards, guidelines, and other means.

7:26:39Target one says the city should increase

7:26:42the number of cultural heritage resources designated

7:26:45under the Ontario Heritage Act.

7:26:48I think that if the city is to act consistently

7:26:51with these principles and objectives,

7:26:53council cannot approve the project as it stands.

7:26:57Instead, as Sue has said, council should support the Wolfon

7:27:01residents' efforts to conduct a heritage study

7:27:03and to hold off on any site development approvals that

7:27:07might threaten the official declaration of the neighborhood

7:27:10as a heritage conservation district.

7:27:12If council chooses to ignore the neighborhood's requests,

7:27:16I can imagine that this choice will yield both legal

7:27:19and political challenges.

7:27:21It would be best in everyone's interest

7:27:23to avoid those outcomes.

7:27:25Thank you for your consideration.

7:27:28I'll ignore the threat there at the end.

7:27:32I've already been told to do something else.

7:27:36OK.

7:27:36So thank you.

7:27:38Don't go anywhere just in case I have a follow up question

7:27:41for you.

7:27:42There is not.

7:27:44Thank you very much, except for the threat part at the end.

7:27:47But thank you very much.

7:27:51So it's back to us.

7:27:55And Councillor O'Rourke and then Alder,

7:28:00I think I saw your hand go up.

7:28:01No?

7:28:02OK.

7:28:02O'Rourke and Gowler.

7:28:05First of all, sorry.

7:28:06I need someone to put the recommendation on the floor.

7:28:10Would the two of you be willing to do that, at least?

7:28:14Yes?

7:28:15Would you be willing to second?

7:28:18Yeah, would someone else be willing to second?

7:28:20Richardson, thank you.

7:28:21And then over to you and then to you, Gowler.

7:28:25Through you, Margarita, three of the staff, just two questions.

7:28:28One, is it possible to do dedicated on-street parking

7:28:32for an area where they don't have driveways?

7:28:34Is that possible?

7:28:36I know it's a separate question.

7:28:38But in the context, is that a possible thing?

7:28:47Through the marriage of the councillor.

7:28:48In 2025, we're doing the citywide on-street parking policy.

7:28:52That is the appropriate place to look at it.

7:28:55And we could look at it through that policy,

7:28:57but do a comprehensive, complete policy

7:28:59is the staff's position.

7:29:02OK, so through you, Margarita, at that time,

7:29:05there could be a special consideration for properties

7:29:09that you don't have driveways to begin with, right?

7:29:14Through the marriage of the councillor, that is correct.

7:29:16OK, thank you.

7:29:17And through you, Margarita, through you, my other question is,

7:29:20we've had delegates who have asked for a delay

7:29:23in order to do a heritage conservation study

7:29:26or to vote against the proposal as is.

7:29:30And so I am wondering, does that put the city

7:29:32in a position of non-decision, which basically allows

7:29:36it to go forward?

7:29:37Or does that send us to the Ontario Land Tribunal

7:29:40where the probability is high that we would not be successful?

7:29:43Can you just game that out for me, please?

7:29:47Through the marriage of the councillor,

7:29:48so yes, we've deemed this application complete.

7:29:50We've had a public meeting through the one month delay

7:29:54as a result of some of this correspondence.

7:29:56We have missed our timelines that are legislated already.

7:30:00So we already missed our timelines on this project.

7:30:04If council pauses this further or passes

7:30:06any type of ink term control by-law

7:30:09or any other wait and see item,

7:30:12it will be a non-decision and the applicant

7:30:16has choices available to them as well.

7:30:20So through you, Marguerite, to Ms. Wauke,

7:30:23just further to that question,

7:30:24because there's already been a delay,

7:30:27does that mean the developer gets a percentage removed

7:30:31from their development charges that are payable?

7:30:34There's been a lot of changes in DCs, so I'm confused.

7:30:36But I know certain timelines, if you delay,

7:30:39then there's a discount on the fees, et cetera.

7:30:42So we're already in a deficit position.

7:30:44Through the mayor to the council, no, we're not.

7:30:46So that legislation was revoked.

7:30:50However, my score card that I'm very proud of,

7:30:52all the time to bring forward to council,

7:30:54will not have quite so great numbers next quarter.

7:30:59Thank you.

7:31:01Thank you, Guller and then Alt.

7:31:03Thank you through your worship to staff.

7:31:09I have several questions here.

7:31:10I will start with the parking.

7:31:13There was a direct request with regards to the bylaw

7:31:18that is being proposed that parking may be provided

7:31:22of Mitchell Street.

7:31:23And Ms. Wauke, we had a conversation about this.

7:31:26I just wanted to be clear.

7:31:28If council were to give a direction of,

7:31:30it shall be provided as requested,

7:31:32would that hold any weight?

7:31:34How would that work?

7:31:39Through the mayor to the councillor.

7:31:41So that choice of words was very intentional by staff.

7:31:45The planning act allows us to have one parking space

7:31:48for each ADU and that's a maximum that we can ask for.

7:31:53The developer has a concept plan.

7:31:54It's included in this.

7:31:55We've made provisions that it be one driveway

7:31:58and what it looks like in grading and everything else.

7:32:02But we cannot require it.

7:32:05And again, if we change the wording,

7:32:09it would open up an opportunity for appeals.

7:32:13And by the sounds of it from either side.

7:32:16Yeah.

7:32:17Okay, so if we were to put the word,

7:32:20shall be provided on Mitchell Street frontage,

7:32:24that would open the door for the developer

7:32:26to take this to the tribunal.

7:32:28And then the tribunal in their decision making,

7:32:32how much weight would there be

7:32:33to council having made this change

7:32:35versus the staff recommendation of may be provided?

7:32:42Through the mayor to the councillor.

7:32:44So being that legislation says a maximum of one,

7:32:48I do not believe there would be any weight provided

7:32:50to the decision of council on this item.

7:32:53Okay. Okay.

7:32:54Thank you for that.

7:32:55I appreciate that.

7:32:57And talking about the fit into the neighborhood now,

7:33:04a couple of the delegates and a few of the letters

7:33:07that we've received talk about the incompatibility

7:33:10of what is being presented with the neighborhood.

7:33:13However, in the staff report, it is supported.

7:33:18So can you help me understand how do we balance

7:33:22protecting the look and the feel of the older neighborhoods

7:33:25with approving a development that looks more like it would fit

7:33:29in a newer part of the city?

7:33:35Through the mayor to the councillor.

7:33:38So as was reported a while ago,

7:33:40like previously four units would have had site plan control,

7:33:43three and above would have had site plan control,

7:33:45but that was also removed from our purview

7:33:47and we cannot go through site plan control for anything,

7:33:53unless it's above 10 units.

7:33:55So we cannot take a look at that.

7:33:56We cannot look at foreign massing building materials.

7:34:00We're not able to comment on that through this application.

7:34:03It would go straight to building permit as has been noted.

7:34:09It is a resident, the proposed request is to go

7:34:12from institutional to residential.

7:34:13So in the residential zone, you can have single semis towns

7:34:17and potentially as of tonight for plexus as well.

7:34:22Okay, okay.

7:34:23So the application could be for two,

7:34:31or yes, four semi-detached, red brick homes or siding homes

7:34:35and that we cannot do or say anything about the finish

7:34:39or the material or the look.

7:34:41We're only looking at institutional

7:34:43to low density residential and for lots.

7:34:47Through the mayor, that is correct.

7:34:50I also cannot comment on those building materials

7:34:53and colors, whether it be one unit, four units,

7:34:5610 units or 100 units.

7:34:58I do not have that ability under the planning act anymore.

7:35:01Okay, okay.

7:35:01No, it's very disappointing,

7:35:05but I understand that these are things that are passed

7:35:07on to us from the province

7:35:09and we have to play by the rules.

7:35:12With regards to some of the requests that we had

7:35:17for the maintenance and the protection of the trees

7:35:19and the green space, one of the letters suggested

7:35:22could they not move the development over a little bit

7:35:24and maintain those trees.

7:35:27So what ability do we have to require

7:35:30that trees be maintained under our current legislation?

7:35:41Through the mayor to Councillor Goller.

7:35:42So this property is under 0.2 hectares in size,

7:35:46so the private tree bylaw does not apply

7:35:49and the proposed development before us does conform

7:35:51with all the required setbacks,

7:35:53including the side yard and rear yard setbacks

7:35:56required in the RL1 zone.

7:35:58Okay, okay.

7:35:59So that's outside of our control.

7:36:01So if you can help me understand then the process,

7:36:04council will make a decision today.

7:36:06If it is in support of the application,

7:36:09what are the next steps for this project to move ahead?

7:36:18Through the mayor to Councillor Goller.

7:36:21So if this project were to go ahead tonight,

7:36:23the next steps would be to bring consent

7:36:26to several applications forward

7:36:27to the committee of adjustment.

7:36:30Okay, and then the consent to sever

7:36:32at the committee of adjustment

7:36:33and then after that is that building permit

7:36:36or is there another step?

7:36:39So after conditional approval is given

7:36:44through a consent to sever application,

7:36:45they would have to fulfill a number of conditions.

7:36:47This includes conditions from planning staff

7:36:49and engineering staff to ensure

7:36:50that there are no technical concerns.

7:36:53Once those are all clear, then the severance

7:36:55can be registered and then the applicant

7:36:57would proceed with the building permit, yes.

7:36:59Okay, okay.

7:37:00And that includes like the GRCA questions

7:37:03about the water and the floodplain and all those things,

7:37:06but there would be no other opportunity

7:37:08and the city does not have the ability

7:37:09to talk about the finish, the material, the look.

7:37:14That is correct, yes.

7:37:15Okay, okay.

7:37:16Thank you, Your Worship.

7:37:17I will have comments after my other colleagues

7:37:21ask questions.

7:37:22Okay, thank you.

7:37:23I have a downer, please.

7:37:27So just.

7:37:28And then I'm so sorry, downer, Councillor Downer.

7:37:31I forgot Councillor Cronn.

7:37:32If I could go to Councillor Cronn first then to you,

7:37:34that'd be great.

7:37:35Thank you, Councillor Cronn.

7:37:37Oh, thanks.

7:37:38The order doesn't matter to me.

7:37:39I just, I wanna ask a question

7:37:42about the Mitchell Street.

7:37:45One of the questions that came up

7:37:46at the first planning meeting of the delegate

7:37:49was whether or not they had plans

7:37:52to build additional ADUs on the Mitchell Frontage.

7:37:55And there wasn't a clear answer to that question,

7:37:58leaving it open to potential future development

7:38:00on the Mitchell side.

7:38:02Is that off the table?

7:38:03Is that something that is prevented

7:38:07if this application goes forward as is

7:38:11or will they still have the as of right

7:38:14to do so at a later date

7:38:18to add additional dwelling units at a later date?

7:38:23Through the mayor to Councillor Cronn.

7:38:25So the proposal before us today

7:38:26would include three dwelling units

7:38:28on each of the four lots.

7:38:30And as was just passed in the four units by a lot earlier

7:38:33this evening, only three units are permitted

7:38:36on semi-detached lots.

7:38:37So there would be no opportunity

7:38:39for additional dwellings on that lot.

7:38:41And I believe as is mentioned in the staff report

7:38:45due to requirements from the GRCA

7:38:47there isn't opportunity for further sentences

7:38:50for new lots fronting onto Mitchell either.

7:38:54Okay, so the applicant has offered

7:38:57and realized that there's reluctance

7:38:58to put the word shall and will.

7:39:01The applicant has put in writing

7:39:03that they will put four additional spaces

7:39:06on the Mitchell Frontage.

7:39:07So if they've agreed to that condition,

7:39:10is it really or and they can't add ADUs at a later date?

7:39:16Is it really a risk that this will go to OLT

7:39:19if we change the word to shall?

7:39:24Through the mayor to the Councillor

7:39:26so that's something as a professional planner

7:39:28I could not recommend given the provincial policies

7:39:31that I have in front of me.

7:39:37Okay, to the Councillor Downer, thank you.

7:39:40So through Mr. Mayor to staff,

7:39:43so the community led heritage district,

7:39:46it's intriguing and we'll see how that plays out.

7:39:49But if at that time that could that area then request

7:39:55the policy interim control bylaw?

7:39:58I know we haven't done that

7:39:59in any other heritage district preparation in the city.

7:40:03There's three on the go now and there's one existing,

7:40:08but would that be, I'm just asking if it's a possibility.

7:40:11I'm not even saying whether it would be recommended

7:40:13or supported, but through the mayor to the Councillor.

7:40:19So it is a possibility if it's not done within a year

7:40:24there's obviously risk to that.

7:40:28We also have our other strategic plan alignments

7:40:31and improve the housing supply

7:40:32and this is a site that could improve the housing supply.

7:40:37So council would have to look at that holistically

7:40:38and staff would have to evaluate that

7:40:41and respond back on if it was appropriate

7:40:43for this and if it.

7:40:45I'm not suggesting that it would impact this site at all

7:40:49because we already heard that it wouldn't.

7:40:52We have to report back.

7:40:54Yeah.

7:40:58Okay, thank you.

7:41:00Sorry, Councillor Allt I think was last on my list.

7:41:04Yes, I was there earlier, but that's okay.

7:41:07I actually, my questions were asked by Councillor O'Rourke

7:41:10and regrettably I did not get the answer that I wanted.

7:41:13So the motion that I sent to clerks

7:41:17and to council will not be put.

7:41:22Will not be put, is that what you said?

7:41:24Okay.

7:41:27With that I am going to go back to Councillor Goller.

7:41:31You said you had comments.

7:41:32So you're the only one on my list for that.

7:41:34So go ahead.

7:41:35Thank you, your worship.

7:41:37And just to see, you know, you,

7:41:38I've been keeping track so you don't have a lot of time.

7:41:40Okay, okay.

7:41:41I'll be quick.

7:41:42I appreciate that.

7:41:44I've been listening to the concerns from the neighborhood.

7:41:49And there are many about this development.

7:41:52And unfortunately, given the limitations

7:41:54that the city has on what we can dictate and not dictate,

7:41:59I am concerned that voting against this

7:42:02will not actually prevent the development.

7:42:05We have seen in other cases in rich way,

7:42:08more and most recently that the committee of adjustment

7:42:11voted against an application that was similar.

7:42:13And what it ended up doing is adding cost to the project

7:42:18that will ultimately be paid by the people

7:42:20that will live there.

7:42:23So I will be supporting this motion.

7:42:26I have been in contact with the developers

7:42:30to ask some of these questions.

7:42:32They have said that they are willing to continue working

7:42:35with the community in terms of the look and feel

7:42:38and the finish of this.

7:42:40And they have already agreed to provide

7:42:42the additional parking spaces.

7:42:44So I am hopeful that as one of the few developers

7:42:47that is building and they live in Guelph

7:42:49that they will honor that and continue to work

7:42:51with the neighborhood.

7:42:54Yeah.

7:42:55Thank you, Worship.

7:42:56Thank you.

7:42:58Okay, and then is that Karan and then Klaas and I think.

7:43:03And then I'll call the vote from there.

7:43:05Go ahead, Karan.

7:43:06Yeah, I don't have the paragraph right in front of me.

7:43:09So I don't have an email in for an amendment,

7:43:12but I would like to change the parking to Shal.

7:43:17You know, the developer has put this in writing

7:43:19that that is what they're willing to do.

7:43:21I think the neighborhood parking concerns are real.

7:43:26I've seen it.

7:43:27I've experienced it.

7:43:29There is this, without those additional four spaces,

7:43:33I think we're exasperating an existing problem knowingly

7:43:37and we're going ahead and knowingly adding to the problem.

7:43:40I think the neighborhood needs some kind of relief on this.

7:43:43So again, I don't have this specific regulation,

7:43:47but I would like to change that wording to Shal.

7:43:49And I hope the developer, if they're listening this evening,

7:43:52we'll hear those concerns and not appeal the change

7:43:57of one word so that we can, and they can move forward.

7:44:04Yeah, I, if you can believe it, I took notes.

7:44:08And during Lenore's delegation, I wrote down,

7:44:14I hope I said this, I hope I wrote down right,

7:44:16subsection seven, section 11 SE,

7:44:21that's what I wrote down from May to Shal.

7:44:25I don't know if that's the right area,

7:44:27but that's what I wrote down.

7:44:29So if you wanted to, if you wanted to send an email

7:44:33to the clerk's counselor,

7:44:34I'm just trying to help you out.

7:44:36It was, and I'm sorry, maybe staff can jump in,

7:44:39but I wrote down, I scribbled down, subsection seven,

7:44:44five 11 point SE, maybe I can't read my own writing,

7:44:49but I think I think I'm close.

7:44:52Changing the word from May to Shal.

7:44:57And counselor Gibson, are you willing to second?

7:44:59Yeah, okay.

7:45:05Gibson seconded it.

7:45:11And just as you're doing that,

7:45:12I think the answer, Caroline,

7:45:13since we know it's coming,

7:45:15O'Rourke just has a question, so go ahead.

7:45:18Thank you, Margarit, to our staff.

7:45:21So I heard our chief planner say that,

7:45:26as a professional planner and the city's chief planner,

7:45:28she would not recommend that.

7:45:31So I'm not a planner,

7:45:34so I just like to give Ms. Walkie an opportunity

7:45:37to respond to the motion.

7:45:40Every month we do stuff that exacerbates

7:45:43parking issues all over the city.

7:45:45Every month we do this on streets that are jam-packed.

7:45:51Here's one where the developer has agreed to add four spaces

7:45:55over and above what they're required to do,

7:45:57which I would love to see in the south end, frankly,

7:46:02and we don't.

7:46:03So Ms. Walkie, I'm just curious,

7:46:06what is your response to

7:46:09the motion through the mayor to the councillor?

7:46:14So I said I can't support it.

7:46:16If I'm on the OLT stand, if I am subpoenaed,

7:46:19I will not be able to support additional parking.

7:46:22So staff on their development applications,

7:46:26Eric beside me, has been subpoenaed by the developers before,

7:46:30and we can only support what legislation has.

7:46:33We cannot go above and beyond that.

7:46:35So that's why as a professional, I could not do that,

7:46:37and I could not put council in that position

7:46:40that I was doing something above and beyond.

7:46:45Thank you.

7:46:46And so the motion has been sent to clerks.

7:46:53So if we could throw that up on the screen.

7:46:55Just a point of order, madam.

7:46:56And then I'll go to, I recognize your point of order.

7:46:59Go ahead.

7:47:00I'm looking at the motion that I think

7:47:01that was moved by councillor Orrarch,

7:47:05and I'm not clear where the may and the shall

7:47:09shall be substituted.

7:47:17All right, thanks.

7:47:19It's all I need to hear.

7:47:22Okay, thank you and Guller, go ahead.

7:47:25Thank you, and through your worship,

7:47:27I've seen this before where council gives a direction,

7:47:32and then it's in contrary to the staff recommendation,

7:47:35and then we have to pay a private lawyer

7:47:38to go and defend the council position.

7:47:40What is the cost to the taxpayer

7:47:44when we have to send a lawyer to defend the city

7:47:47when we go against the recommendation of staff?

7:47:54And just the ballpark figure,

7:47:56are we talking about five grand, 50 grand?

7:47:59What are we getting ourselves into here?

7:48:07Through the mayor to the councillor.

7:48:09So it would be a one day hearing and prep,

7:48:12you would have to hire a planner that's not employed

7:48:16by the city.

7:48:20If you're in the $10,000 range,

7:48:23you're probably doing okay, it could be up to 25.

7:48:28Okay, I appreciate that, thank you.

7:48:32Okay, and I just want to try to wrap up this.

7:48:35It's all around one word,

7:48:37but I'll go to boost it till then downer, okay?

7:48:40Thank you.

7:48:41Through the mayor, just a question for staff.

7:48:43I'm struggling a little bit to understand

7:48:45the delegation said that in meeting with the developer,

7:48:50Spruce Living, that they had offered

7:48:53to provide additional parking.

7:48:55Is there a mechanism through,

7:48:57whether it's a covenant or something that can be

7:49:00facilitated in a way, in a conversation and captured,

7:49:06rather than doing shall in something,

7:49:09is there something that, you know, the two parties agree,

7:49:12yes, we think additional parking, let's put it on paper,

7:49:15is there something that can be done?

7:49:19Through the mayor to the councillor again,

7:49:22probably not from staff's perspective.

7:49:25The developer has shown all the plans

7:49:27and has talked to the neighborhood about it,

7:49:29and I would certainly think that if any other applications

7:49:32come forward by the developer and it's not implemented,

7:49:35council will consider that.

7:49:40Thank you, and downer, please.

7:49:43So in your professional opinion,

7:49:46do you think we'd even be able to find a planner

7:49:48that would go against provincial legislation on parking?

7:49:56I mean, it's just, I think like, you know,

7:49:59sometimes there's things that, you know,

7:50:01are not our policy, but this is like

7:50:04specific provincial legislation.

7:50:07I'm just concerned, like, I support us,

7:50:12like dealing with this in the on-street parking study.

7:50:15I think we have to deal with this on,

7:50:16like residential parking on the street.

7:50:19I don't know that we can go down this road

7:50:23and put, and go against provincial legislation by putting,

7:50:28I think it's great that the developers agreed to do that,

7:50:31but I don't know that we can put it in into the bylaw.

7:50:37And find a planner that would even support that

7:50:40going against you.

7:50:43I guess maybe that's an unfair question.

7:50:47Yeah, so you may be able to,

7:50:52and the risks of success at a hearing

7:50:56are potentially limited,

7:50:58and we do have recent decisions back

7:51:00from other similar projects, such as Ridgway,

7:51:03where the concerns were not supported by the OLT.

7:51:10Okay, so I'm gonna call the vote on this May versus shall.

7:51:16And I'll just say what I'm gonna say.

7:51:19I'm not gonna support it because I don't,

7:51:21it's not that I disagree with

7:51:22Councillor Ciaran's position at all.

7:51:26It's that I trust the developer in this town.

7:51:30I trust the developer fully.

7:51:32And so when the developer is saying

7:51:35that they're offering these extra four spaces,

7:51:38they didn't have to, and they're doing it, and they're local,

7:51:41I trust them to actually follow through on that.

7:51:44And as our head planner just said,

7:51:46if they didn't, we would remember that.

7:51:49So I think that's where my position is.

7:51:52So it's to amend subsection 18.126, I was off.

7:51:56I was very off in what I wrote down.

7:51:59Sorry.

7:52:01You want to make a comment?

7:52:02Go ahead.

7:52:03Thank you, and through you, Mr. Mayor, to Councillor Ciaran,

7:52:06we just made an update to the motion that you provided

7:52:09with the correct subsection.

7:52:10I just want you to confirm that this motion

7:52:13is what you intend to pass.

7:52:14Thank you.

7:52:15Okay, sorry, sorry, Councillor Ciaran,

7:52:18I, my scribble wasn't the best.

7:52:19I had the word subsection, right?

7:52:21And that was about it.

7:52:24At least I wrote it down.

7:52:25So I'll call the vote.

7:52:27So all those against, please raise your hand.

7:52:31All right, so that's Gawler, and O'Rourke,

7:52:34and myself, Guthrie, and Busatil, and Richardson,

7:52:38and Quassan, and Billings, and Gibson, and Chu.

7:52:44So that does fail, okay?

7:52:46Okay, so we are back to the main motion.

7:52:52And I will call the vote on that.

7:52:54Is anyone against this application?

7:52:58Nobody, that's unanimous, okay?

7:53:01Thank you very much.

7:53:03And we will move on to our last item.

7:53:08Now, I'm gonna ask right now,

7:53:14we have had delegations awaiting all night,

7:53:19and they are here, including staff,

7:53:20to figure out this last item,

7:53:22and I think it would be respectful

7:53:24to just finish it off.

7:53:26May I have a motion just to go past 11, please?

7:53:29Busatil will move it, Chu will second it,

7:53:33and is anyone against that?

7:53:36All right, just Alt is against that, so that passes.

7:53:41And so we will move on to 37, Christy Lane.

7:53:45And we do have a presentation from our own planner, Jack.

7:53:49Jack Mullin is here.

7:53:51And from Heritage Guelph, I think Alexander Crookers here

7:53:54as well.

7:53:56Hey, how are ya?

7:54:03So Jack, go right ahead, and then Alex,

7:54:08if you need to pipe in afterwards, you go ahead too, okay?

7:54:12Go ahead.

7:54:12Good evening, Mayor and members of council.

7:54:15Tonight, I'm presenting to you staff's recommendation

7:54:18on the University of Guelph's intention to demolish

7:54:20through deconstruction, the Rutherford Conservatory,

7:54:23at 37 Christy Lane.

7:54:26We have expedited this application