Staff to proceed with the Section 26 Official Plan update as outlined in the report titled Special meeting of Council to commence the Downtown Building Heights…

5:45:57We have a presentation, two presentations from staff,

5:46:01and we have two delegations.

5:46:07And so we will jump into that.

5:46:10Brenda McKinnon is a project manager

5:46:12and policy planning.

5:46:14Stacy Auckland is our Downtown Revitalization Advisor.

5:46:18And again, this is in specific regards

5:46:23to the Downtown Heights study.

5:46:43Good evening, Mr. Mayor, members of council.

5:46:46I'm Stacy Loughlin,

5:46:47Downtown Revitalization Advisor here at the city.

5:46:49Other staff in attendance with me tonight

5:46:51are Brenda McKinnon,

5:46:53who's a project manager in policy planning,

5:46:54like Mary Guthrie said.

5:46:56She is co-project managing this project with me.

5:46:59Chris Tawaki and James Goodrum are also here as well.

5:47:02And Jane Holmes, sorry, didn't mean to forget you there, Jane.

5:47:07We are here tonight to formally initiate

5:47:09the Official Plan Amendment process

5:47:10for the Downtown Building Heights Review,

5:47:12which is being undertaken at the request of council.

5:47:15Since receiving council's direction to undertake this study,

5:47:19we have been working to fit it in

5:47:21with the ongoing housing work,

5:47:22the ongoing downtown renewal work,

5:47:24and the ongoing changes occurring

5:47:26related to planning legislation and policies.

5:47:29This study has to fit seamlessly into the bigger picture.

5:47:33The study aligns with the strategic plan objectives

5:47:35to improve housing supply

5:47:37and assist the city in meeting our housing pledge.

5:47:43So tonight's meeting is a special meeting of council

5:47:46as required by section 26 of the Planning Act.

5:47:49The intent is to provide council and the public

5:47:51with the opportunity to provide input into the project

5:47:54and discuss revisions that may be required

5:47:57to the Official Plan at the outset of the process.

5:48:01At the end of the project,

5:48:02we will be presenting an Official Plan Amendment to Council

5:48:05with recommended changes related to building height

5:48:07in the Downtown Secondary Plan area.

5:48:09We will also be presenting built form standards

5:48:12for tall buildings that provide guidance

5:48:14related to the design of these buildings

5:48:16throughout the entire city.

5:48:22Official Plan Amendment 80 or OPA80

5:48:24was the last comprehensive review of the OP.

5:48:27It was initiated in November of 2020

5:48:30and recently completed with the minister's approval.

5:48:33OPA80 didn't look at significantly increasing heights downtown

5:48:37because the growth management analysis

5:48:39undertaken at the time demonstrated

5:48:41that the permitted height and density for downtown

5:48:44had sufficient capacity to achieve a density

5:48:47of 200 people in jobs per hectare,

5:48:49which is our current density target.

5:48:51This is above the target of 150 people in jobs per hectare

5:48:55that the province had provided for Guelphs downtown.

5:48:59For a brief period of time

5:49:00during the minister's approval process,

5:49:02building heights of up to 23 stories

5:49:05were permitted throughout downtown.

5:49:07These permissions were subsequently deleted by the province.

5:49:11In December 2023,

5:49:13Council recognized that it would be better

5:49:15to consider revisions to the downtown height schedule

5:49:18through a comprehensive review

5:49:20with consideration for the policy framework

5:49:22of the Secondary Plan,

5:49:23existing urban design policies and guidelines,

5:49:26as well as the ongoing Heritage Conservation District Study.

5:49:29And Council requested that staff undertake that study.

5:49:35For clarification, this study is not intended

5:49:37to increase the density targets for downtown,

5:49:40but rather to increase flexibility

5:49:42so that we can achieve those density targets,

5:49:45which is again, 200 people and jobs per hectare by 2051.

5:49:50So this slide and the next slide,

5:49:51which you've already seen tonight

5:49:53as part of the affordable housing strategy presentation,

5:49:55helped to show the city's larger housing story

5:49:58and what actions are being taken

5:50:00to help increase housing throughout our city.

5:50:03So as you can see,

5:50:04the downtown building height study

5:50:05is only one piece of the housing puzzle.

5:50:08This study alone will not solve the housing crisis,

5:50:11but it will help provide flexibility

5:50:13for higher density built forms of housing.

5:50:18The other puzzle that this study needs to fit into

5:50:22is downtown renewal.

5:50:23It does and must continue to be coordinated

5:50:26and integrated with downtown infrastructure renewal,

5:50:29as well as the future community planning permit system

5:50:32and the ongoing Heritage Conservation District Study.

5:50:38As I mentioned,

5:50:39through the minister's approval process of OPA 80,

5:50:41there was a brief period of time

5:50:42where 23 story buildings were permitted throughout downtown.

5:50:46Those increased building height permissions

5:50:49were subsequently deleted

5:50:50and the height permissions went back

5:50:52to what was approved by council in July of 2022

5:50:55and what you see on this map.

5:50:57Through OPA 80,

5:50:58some minor modifications to the permitted building heights

5:51:01were made to permit additional stories in areas

5:51:04where bonusing could previously be considered.

5:51:07Also, as I indicated earlier,

5:51:09these building height permissions

5:51:10provide sufficient capacity

5:51:12to meet the current density target

5:51:14of 200 people and jobs per hectare.

5:51:18As part of this study,

5:51:20the following considerations will be addressed.

5:51:23What is tall and how do we define tall,

5:51:25what a tall building is within the Guelph context?

5:51:28How should the unique aspects of Guelphs downtown

5:51:31be considered,

5:51:32including topography, parcel sizes,

5:51:34natural heritage,

5:51:35such as the speed and air most rivers,

5:51:38cultural heritage,

5:51:39protected view corridors to Basilica of our Lady Immaculate,

5:51:42and key transit corridors

5:51:43and the connection to the ghost station.

5:51:45Our downtown is the protected major transit station area

5:51:49for our city.

5:51:51As the city prepares to invest

5:51:53in downtown infrastructure renewal,

5:51:55the impacts of additional building height

5:51:56on Market Square, St. George's Square,

5:51:59future public squares in the Baker District,

5:52:01the pedestrian areas of our streets

5:52:02and other public gathering spaces

5:52:04need to be understood for all seasons.

5:52:08And while the study will look

5:52:09at the entire downtown secondary plan area,

5:52:12in particular, the following areas

5:52:14will be carefully considered

5:52:15for the approval of taller buildings,

5:52:17areas south of the Metrolinx rail tracks,

5:52:20wider streets,

5:52:21such as Norfolk and Gordon Street,

5:52:22Wyndham Street, Macdonnell Street,

5:52:25larger parcels of land

5:52:26that can more easily facilitate transition

5:52:29and lower topographic areas.

5:52:34The study will also be guided

5:52:35by existing planning context,

5:52:37a scan of other municipalities

5:52:39and updated land use assessment,

5:52:42as well as principles of good urban design,

5:52:44such as sun and shadow impacts,

5:52:46wind impacts, relationship with adjacent buildings

5:52:50and impacts on public spaces,

5:52:51including gathering spaces and streets.

5:52:58Staff have started engaging with the community

5:53:01on the topic of downtown building heights

5:53:03at several pop-up and other engagement events.

5:53:05And we've been doing this since early October.

5:53:08We've attended other public open houses,

5:53:10been at the farmers market,

5:53:11held some focus group meetings,

5:53:13and we're at the downtown renewal open house last night.

5:53:16Formal community engagement documents

5:53:18will be prepared during the study,

5:53:20however, feedback to date has been varied

5:53:22and can generally be placed into three categories.

5:53:25One, building heights should not be limited,

5:53:27the more density the better.

5:53:29Two, taller buildings should be permitted,

5:53:32however, maintain the protected view corridors

5:53:34to the Basilica of Our Lady Immaculate.

5:53:36And three, do not change the existing permissions

5:53:39for building height,

5:53:39the downtown secondary plan got it right.

5:53:42Other comments that were raised include,

5:53:44but are not limited to,

5:53:45build more affordable housing,

5:53:47consider low to mid-rise buildings

5:53:49throughout downtown like Paris.

5:53:51It's amazing how many times that one came up actually.

5:53:53Protect the cultural heritage of downtown,

5:53:56new development should provide parking,

5:53:58and the design of buildings is important.

5:54:03After tonight's meeting

5:54:04and the engagement that has occurred to date,

5:54:07we will prepare the draft of the official plan amendment

5:54:10and then proceed with another round of engagement,

5:54:13which will include the statutory public open house

5:54:16and the statutory public meeting in February.

5:54:19After we receive feedback on that

5:54:21draft official plan amendment,

5:54:22staff will make modifications to it as needed

5:54:25and bring it back to council for decision in April of 2025.

5:54:29So to conclude tonight's meeting is intended

5:54:32to formally initiate the official plan amendment process.

5:54:35And we'd like to hear your comments

5:54:36on what you think we should consider

5:54:38as we continue with this study.

5:54:40Thanks.

5:54:43Great, thank you.

5:54:44And is that it for the staff presentations?

5:54:45That's it for the staff presentation.

5:54:47Okay, I just wanted to make sure.

5:54:48We have two delegations that are coming forward.

5:54:53Steven Litt, is Steven Litt here?

5:54:57Yes, okay.

5:54:57And David Gilbreth,

5:55:02I imagine that's the two of you coming down now.

5:55:05And it says on my notes here

5:55:07that you're gonna do a joint delegation.

5:55:10Is that right?

5:55:11Okay.

5:55:13I just wanna make sure,

5:55:14am I making the timer 10 minutes for the two of you?

5:55:17That's what you asked for?

5:55:19Should suffice?

5:55:20Yeah, it should work.

5:55:21Okay.

5:55:21All right, and you have a presentation it looks like.

5:55:24We'll get you the clicker.

5:55:25Perfect.

5:55:27All right, good evening.

5:55:28Thank you and welcome, sorry.

5:55:29Thank you, welcome.

5:55:30And I'll turn it over to you, go right ahead.

5:55:32All right, good evening,

5:55:33Mayor Guthrie, members of the planning committee.

5:55:35My name's Dave Gilbreth.

5:55:36I am the president of consulting and a practicing planner.

5:55:40Earlier this year,

5:55:42I appeared before council with respect to 26 Cardin Street

5:55:46which has the active official plan amendment

5:55:47and zone change application.

5:55:49I'm here tonight on behalf of both Skyline

5:55:52who are advancing that application

5:55:53as well as Vive Stevenlett who's here with me tonight.

5:55:58In terms of an update on 26 Cardin,

5:56:02Greg who's not able to be here tonight

5:56:03and the Skyline team has agreed to kind of pump the brakes

5:56:07a little bit on the advancement of that application

5:56:09to participate in this process

5:56:11and some of the consultation opportunities

5:56:14and participate through that process.

5:56:20So tonight I just prepared a brief presentation

5:56:23which we had previously shared with staff

5:56:25and the consulting team with respect to the height review,

5:56:29just offering some of my initial thoughts

5:56:31on the process to date.

5:56:34As you've heard from Stacy this evening,

5:56:37height is regulated within the downtown

5:56:40by the secondary plan which generally focuses

5:56:44height towards the periphery of the downtown along the river

5:56:47and corresponding also with some of the special policy area

5:56:52in this location.

5:56:54In addition to that,

5:56:55there are obviously the view sheds

5:56:56that are set out in the official plan.

5:56:59So this diagram on the right comes

5:57:01from my planning justification report for 26 Cardin

5:57:03which speaks to some of the view sheds.

5:57:07So what are the views that exist right now?

5:57:10So these photos were all taken from various positions

5:57:13along the view sheds

5:57:14and you can see some views are better than others,

5:57:17some are worse than others, some are largely obstructed,

5:57:19some are pretty prime.

5:57:22But the primary view as we all know

5:57:24is along Macton out here.

5:57:26So I would encourage staff and the consulting team

5:57:29as we go through this process together

5:57:32to look critically at both the heights

5:57:34and the view sheds here

5:57:37to ensure that appropriate protection is being provided

5:57:40and that the mechanisms that were put in place

5:57:41in the past are still appropriate

5:57:44or if they need to be massaged

5:57:45that this is the appropriate time to do so.

5:57:49And through this process,

5:57:50I'd also encourage staff and the consulting team

5:57:52as I know they will do

5:57:54to look at the approaches of other jurisdictions.

5:57:56So this approach here is Toronto City Hall,

5:57:59you can recognize the distinctive architecture here

5:58:03and how views of the City Hall have been protected

5:58:07within the context of the City of Toronto.

5:58:09So the diagram on the right shows the vantage points

5:58:12and then the diagram on the left shows

5:58:14where obstructions are not permitted

5:58:16within certain view sheds here.

5:58:19And there are many, many jurisdictions

5:58:23that have these view sheds

5:58:24and I just encourage the city again

5:58:25to look at alternate approaches there

5:58:28to ensure that the approach is appropriate for Guelph

5:58:32and protecting view sheds there.

5:58:36So as part of some of the early consultation

5:58:38that we've had with staff

5:58:39and we were tasked with what is tall,

5:58:44what's, and in response to that,

5:58:46what's tall currently versus what's appropriate.

5:58:50And I think it's also important through this exercise

5:58:52to look at what other municipalities similar to Guelph

5:58:57are doing in their downtowns.

5:58:59If and why additional height should not be considered

5:59:04within the city.

5:59:06So the next few slides just show case studies of,

5:59:10or examples of other municipalities

5:59:13that are, I tried to find of a similar size.

5:59:15So we have the City of Waterloo here

5:59:17with some of the taller buildings

5:59:19within the core areas of the municipality here.

5:59:22And I would note that the city recently went through

5:59:25major transit station area review

5:59:28where within many of those protected transit station areas,

5:59:33buildings up to 30 stories will be permitted

5:59:35as of right moving forward.

5:59:38In Kitchener, many tall buildings

5:59:39and successful tall buildings have been constructed

5:59:42within the past decade.

5:59:43And these are some examples of proposals

5:59:46as well as those that have been constructed.

5:59:49So the image on the right is the glove box redevelopment,

5:59:52which is a really good example of adaptive reuse

5:59:56of the old Huck glove facility within the City of Kitchener.

6:00:00That's been integrated into a higher density redevelopment.

6:00:05Kingston, a lot of really good heritage

6:00:07within the City of Kingston,

6:00:09just similar to Guelph.

6:00:12And over the past decade,

6:00:13they have seen a number of tall buildings

6:00:15that again have thoughtfully integrated heritage protections

6:00:18with their buildings.

6:00:21And then St. Catharines over the last number of years,

6:00:24very similar, I think this is the closest

6:00:26in terms of population to Guelph.

6:00:29A lot of tall buildings have been considered

6:00:30within this context.

6:00:33These examples aren't to say

6:00:34that these cities are the same as Guelph.

6:00:35Guelph has its local characteristics.

6:00:38But this again was just the purpose

6:00:40of just showing an inter-jurisdictional scan here.

6:00:42So don't have the answer tonight

6:00:45and we look forward to participating

6:00:46through the process moving forward,

6:00:48but just some final thoughts and recommendations

6:00:50for the process.

6:00:52Think about smart growth versus growth on the edge.

6:00:54Why?

6:00:55I understand that density targets are already established

6:01:00and that Guelph can achieve them,

6:01:02but why not a bit more within the downtown

6:01:04where growth is most appropriate?

6:01:07Transit is best within the downtown.

6:01:09Walkability is best within the downtown.

6:01:11So again, more rationale for additional height here.

6:01:15Having said that, not all sites

6:01:17are suitable candidates for additional height

6:01:20due to heritage considerations,

6:01:22lot size, frontage, and orientation.

6:01:24So there are the unique factors

6:01:25that need to be considered as well.

6:01:28And then I guess just along the same lines

6:01:30as what Stacey had suggested

6:01:32would be an outcome of this process

6:01:34is to ensure that there are appropriate design guidelines

6:01:37that are implemented moving forward as well

6:01:39for the downtown.

6:01:41So with that, I will hand things over to Stephen.

6:01:46Thanks, Dave.

6:01:48I came tonight just to introduce myself.

6:01:51Come to Kitchener Council often

6:01:52and it's seemingly well received

6:01:54just to have a good discussion.

6:01:56I'm here primarily for questions

6:01:58about rental housing, the state of,

6:02:00it's a challenging market to build right now.

6:02:03Five, we build about 1,000 units per year, all rental homes.

6:02:07Everything we build is energy efficient

6:02:09to the tune of 25 or 40% better than building code.

6:02:13All of our projects have an element of affordability,

6:02:16generally about 20% deeply affordable,

6:02:18the balance being mid-market affordable.

6:02:21We have land south of the train tracks per se

6:02:25for roughly 1,000 units.

6:02:27We can see our way through to building

6:02:29about 500 next year, sort of working towards

6:02:32the Build Faster funds.

6:02:33I know it's a sort of, everyone had to swallow this pill

6:02:36that the province gave us.

6:02:37It's created more challenges and good

6:02:40on some days of the week.

6:02:41But yeah, we think that this is a worthy cause

6:02:46without a doubt.

6:02:48The 23 stories that came from the province

6:02:51sort of caught everyone off guard.

6:02:52And I'm glad to see that Guelph

6:02:53is sort of taking a more holistic approach.

6:02:56So here to make an introduction,

6:02:58if anyone has any questions about what it takes

6:03:01to build rental, we've gone from building sort of mid-rises.

6:03:07But the mid-rise form is very difficult

6:03:09to amortize our soft costs over such a period of time.

6:03:14I hear that the mid-rise is a great form.

6:03:18I wish we were Paris.

6:03:20We have a much more desperate need for housing in Ontario.

6:03:24And we have to catch up with that.

6:03:26High-rises can be built with great street walls,

6:03:29great pedestrian realm orientation,

6:03:31all that sort of wonderful stuff.

6:03:32So we have a top-of-the-ceremony next week, Wednesday,

6:03:36if anyone from Council wants to come check out

6:03:39what a 24-story, 304-unit mid-market

6:03:42energy efficient rental building looks like.

6:03:44So here to engage in some dialogue, if there's any questions.

6:03:48Thank you.

6:03:51Thank you to you, Guelph.

6:03:52Thank you so much for the presentation

6:03:54and some of the ideas you shared.

6:03:56I saw Klossin and Guller, or just Guller, okay?

6:04:00Guller, go ahead.

6:04:01And then Alt, please.

6:04:02Thank you to your worship.

6:04:04Thank you for the presentation.

6:04:06One of the questions that I'm going to ask staff

6:04:09is about the environmental sustainability

6:04:13of taller buildings.

6:04:14What I've read tells me that the taller it is,

6:04:17the more embedded carbon footprint.

6:04:19But you're letting me know that some of the buildings

6:04:21that you're building that are taller

6:04:23are energy efficient.

6:04:24So could you tell a little bit more

6:04:25about how we square up wanting to be conscious

6:04:29of the climate crisis with building tall cement buildings?

6:04:34Yeah, it's a great question.

6:04:36So, I mean, when you look at a square foot of a building,

6:04:39the structure that supports it's gonna be

6:04:42concrete steel, so that's the same cost,

6:04:44whether the building's tall or small.

6:04:45What I can tell you is when you have a taller building,

6:04:48a larger building, there's more economics in building,

6:04:52in the capital cost of integrating

6:04:55air source heat pumps, for example.

6:04:56So that's the way that we achieve 40% better than building,

6:05:01but we have no natural gas in these buildings.

6:05:03So the entire roof is full of air source heat pumps

6:05:06for domestic water, heating load, makeup air,

6:05:09the whole kit.

6:05:10You simply can't build, design a building

6:05:14and pay for that capital cost when it's smaller.

6:05:17So, don't have to answer your question,

6:05:20but there's a follow up happy to.

6:05:21Yeah, no, that helps.

6:05:23Thank you so much.

6:05:23Appreciate it.

6:05:24Thank you, worship.

6:05:26Thank you, and Councillor Allt, please.

6:05:29Thank you very much.

6:05:29My questions were largely answered by,

6:05:32largely asked by Councillor Goller,

6:05:34but I really wanted to get a sense

6:05:37of what we define as a mid-rise building,

6:05:40because energy efficiency concerns me,

6:05:42and what I've read in a couple of architectural books

6:05:45and engineering books is that energy efficiency

6:05:47above 10 stories is relatively difficult to achieve.

6:05:55Yeah, depending where you do business,

6:05:59so we're active in Kitchen in a Big Way,

6:06:02hope to be in Guelph, Milton and St. Catharines,

6:06:05and all those jurisdictions are mid-rises

6:06:08and are eight to 12 floors,

6:06:10and beyond that's high rise.

6:06:11So it's just sort of a random number.

6:06:15I would love to better understand,

6:06:17I think perhaps a lot of what you're reading is,

6:06:21are these curtain wall, the buildings in Toronto,

6:06:23the typical high rise condo that you build a concrete frame

6:06:28and you slide a window in, you cock the edges,

6:06:30and it's a curtain wall window wall system.

6:06:32Yeah, there's pretty much no R value in glass, right?

6:06:35So when we design a building that we're going to own,

6:06:39operate, manage for the long term,

6:06:41the windows aren't 10 feet, they're six feet,

6:06:43so there's insulation, and the windows

6:06:45are of better quality, right?

6:06:47So I think a lot of the bad rap of high rise

6:06:49energy efficiency is from the 20, 25 year old product

6:06:54from Toronto.

6:06:55I mean, I'm happy to share energy models

6:06:57on any of our current high rise stuff, so yeah.

6:06:59Thanks, no further question, but yeah,

6:07:00I would love to have that shared,

6:07:02because it even goes beyond things like windows

6:07:04and just heating, thank you.

6:07:08Thank you, no further questions except for me.

6:07:11I just wanted to understand, and I don't want you to,

6:07:13I don't please, I don't want you to get into like,

6:07:17the decimal points of proformas, okay?

6:07:20But what I'm interested in, where you're building,

6:07:24obviously those heights and the zoning is already allowed,

6:07:28because you're already building there.

6:07:30What, is it, like, where you're building

6:07:35is it encouraged by the city to go higher

6:07:39so that the proformas are working,

6:07:42and you can start to actually provide some of either

6:07:45the environmental benefits, or the affordable housing,

6:07:48or the, or this, or that, because the height gives you

6:07:52the economies of scale, and the proforma to be able

6:07:55to give back to the community in a way

6:07:57for that type of building envelope and the building quality.

6:08:01What are these other cities doing

6:08:03that are ahead of Guelph a little bit?

6:08:04Sure.

6:08:05In those allowances that is mirroring

6:08:08to what your product is, I'm just really interested

6:08:11in where you're already building compared to where

6:08:14we're not doing that right now, but we're about to,

6:08:16it's in some capacity.

6:08:19So can you give us like how it's going

6:08:21in the other communities that are a little bit ahead of us?

6:08:25For sure, so I know the miss files we do work in,

6:08:29for example, are seriously considering,

6:08:31so in the 2024 spring budget, there is a,

6:08:36no one really talked about it, but next spring

6:08:38you can reduce property taxes between 10 and 35%

6:08:43by introducing a new class for purpose built rental.

6:08:46So that takes the property tax down,

6:08:48which justifies it brings our operating costs down.

6:08:52We can afford to build more expensive buildings,

6:08:54more expensive is energy efficient, more,

6:08:56so the more features you add into a building, right?

6:08:58So whether it's energy efficiency adds capital cost,

6:09:04affordability reduces your revenue stream.

6:09:06And so all these things are effectively

6:09:08making a building more expensive.

6:09:10So when you have more building area,

6:09:13you have more amortite, you can spread those costs

6:09:16over more suites, you can absorb more

6:09:18of that community benefit into the building per se.

6:09:25Give an example, St. Catherine's just announced

6:09:28that they're taking their,

6:09:31well the regional development charges

6:09:33and city development charges, if you covenant

6:09:34to keep it a rental building for 10 years,

6:09:37they reduce the levies by a factor of half.

6:09:40That was the Niagara Region Smart Growth Program

6:09:43that's been around for a while.

6:09:44St. Catherine's just used their housing accelerator fund

6:09:47to do that, so a few things that come off the top,

6:09:53but yes, again, I hate to say, you know,

6:09:56bigger is often scary, I totally respect

6:09:59a lot of these view sheds and Guelph's perspective

6:10:02on protecting a lot of that ingrained

6:10:05pedestrian realm in downtown, but it can be done

6:10:08in such a way that it's not at all daunting.

6:10:12Great, thank you very much, I appreciate that feedback.

6:10:16Well thank you to the both of you for sticking around,

6:10:18thank you for your presentation.

6:10:19Thank you, look forward to the process.

6:10:20Thank you so much.

6:10:24Council is just a three, four minute break,

6:10:28where I'm gonna yell out the number again

6:10:30to see if there's anyone else that wants

6:10:31to also apply in on this, so it's 519-837-5603.

6:10:38Is there anyone in the room here

6:10:39that also wants to talk about the heights?

6:10:42No, okay, good, I mean, not good,

6:10:45like I'm not glad you're not interested, but good.

6:10:48And so we'll just wait a few minutes

6:10:50to see if I want someone wants to call in, okay?

6:12:26Okay, I'm just gonna give the 30, 45 second warning.

6:12:30Yep, okay everyone, I'll just call

6:14:32the meeting back to order, there's been no call in

6:14:35and nobody else here, so it is back to Council.

6:14:40What's in front of us is not any decision tonight,

6:14:42this is basically a kickoff.

6:14:44It's an agreement to let go, get her done,

6:14:47so we'll have it come back another time.

6:14:49So Councillor Goller is willing

6:14:51to move the recommendation for that,

6:14:55and I'm gonna look for Councillor Cawson to second that,

6:14:58thank you, so now it's officially

6:15:00on the floor, I'll just read that out loud,

6:15:04that staff be directed to proceed

6:15:06with section 26 of the official plan update

6:15:08as outlined in the report titled Special Meeting of Council

6:15:11to commence, or in my words, to kick off,

6:15:14the Downtown Building Heights Study

6:15:16dated December 10th, 2024.

6:15:19I have a couple questions, one from Gowler

6:15:22and one from Colosson, and if there's anyone else,

6:15:25feel free to put up your hand.

6:15:26Thank you, through your worship to staff.

6:15:29Thank you so much for bringing this forward.

6:15:30I'm very excited about seeing this coming to us.

6:15:36We did, as a Council, declare that there was,

6:15:40we are in the middle of a climate crisis

6:15:42and that we needed to take action,

6:15:43and I know that in the work that we do,

6:15:46in our master plan strategies,

6:15:48we normally consider those things.

6:15:50I did not specifically see that

6:15:53in the report or the presentation,

6:15:55so I would like to ask that the carbon footprint,

6:15:59energy consumption, greenhouse gas emission,

6:16:02and heat islands be considered as part of this.

6:16:06Would there be, need to be a motion of Council

6:16:10to have these added in so that when there's open houses,

6:16:13that is actually a panel, or is that something

6:16:16that you would just already be doing, or that you would,

6:16:20yeah.

6:16:22Through the mayor to Councillor Goller,

6:16:23so we are working on the city sustainability guidelines,

6:16:26which encompasses additional green standards

6:16:29of Councilwork calls when we brought forward

6:16:30the comprehensive zoning bylaw.

6:16:33I think we brought forward a few kind of green standard light

6:16:37as a checklist, and we'll be developing that further

6:16:39throughout 2025, and it'll be city-wide.

6:16:42It won't necessarily be just specific for this project,

6:16:45so you'll start to see more information

6:16:46in the later half of 2025 and to 26

6:16:49with both those two projects.

6:16:51Right, I think what I'm asking is, as part of this,

6:16:54as we're deciding how tall we should allow buildings,

6:16:58can that be a consideration that we talk about

6:17:00and that we mention?

6:17:02Because there's definitely a,

6:17:06the carbon footprint of cement building

6:17:08that is 26 stories is going to be much higher

6:17:11than one that is 10 stories, and the energy consumption.

6:17:14And I understand that this developer that spoke to us,

6:17:18they are proactive and they do those things.

6:17:21They put in the heat pumps, but correct me if I'm wrong,

6:17:24but we cannot demand that everyone does it.

6:17:27So we don't have the ability to say,

6:17:30you can build to 26 stories if you do everything heat pump

6:17:33because that's outside of our control.

6:17:35So how do we manage that conversation?

6:17:40Through the mayor to the council, that is correct.

6:17:42We can't mandate that if it's not in the building code.

6:17:45If it's not in the building code, we can't mandate it.

6:17:48So I think our best approach is with these

6:17:50city sustainability guidelines and the green standards,

6:17:53and to bring them back at that point in time.

6:17:55It's not part of this scope of work.

6:17:57If it was part of this scope of work,

6:17:58we would not be back until 2026.

6:18:00So we are trying to accelerate the scope of work

6:18:03and work on the other components through a separate process.

6:18:10Right, but if we can, well, my challenge here is that

6:18:16once we say you can build to 20 stories,

6:18:19then we lose our ability to manage that.

6:18:22So I think as part of the consideration of the height,

6:18:25we need to consider the environmental impact

6:18:28of building to that height.

6:18:31So can I request that this be part of the considerations

6:18:35that as we talk about buildings,

6:18:37if we're going to say that we can build 23 stories

6:18:41everywhere downtown,

6:18:42that is going to have a very different carbon footprint

6:18:45than if we say actually it's kept at 10 stories

6:18:47everywhere downtown.

6:18:49So how does that get brought into the conversation?

6:18:58Through the mayor to the councillor,

6:19:00and maybe we follow up with this,

6:19:01but without a legislative tool or ability to do that,

6:19:05our hands are somewhat tied.

6:19:07So, you know, we talk about our green standard lights

6:19:10right now, it's an encouragement to fill out

6:19:14that application form and tell us kind of what you're going

6:19:17to do.

6:19:17We have the community energy initiative

6:19:19that one of the counselors asked about

6:19:20with every single project,

6:19:23but we know we can't enforce it.

6:19:25So I think, you know, you may be asking something

6:19:27that we can't enforce, we'll take it back

6:19:29and we'll respond when we have the design guidelines,

6:19:31but I'm kind of hard pressed to answer that right now,

6:19:36given the ability for us to enforce certain items.

6:19:38Well, and I think that's what I'm getting to.

6:19:40If we have no ability to enforce the environmental standards

6:19:44of a building once it's built,

6:19:46but we can cap the height in consideration

6:19:50of the carbon footprint of the materials

6:19:53that are being used to build that building.

6:19:55So can this be taken into account as we say,

6:19:58we're okay with allowing, you know, a certain height.

6:20:01Well, what is the cost to the environment

6:20:05to build to that height?

6:20:08So, through the mayor to the counselor,

6:20:10so if that is to be considered,

6:20:13we will not be back in April.

6:20:18Okay, I think it is important that I would like to,

6:20:21you know, maybe ask my council of colleagues to pitch in.

6:20:24I think it's important for us to consider

6:20:28the footprint that we're, the environmental footprint

6:20:31of what we're going to allow as we think about heights.

6:20:39What are you asking of us?

6:20:41Because the alternative is we just built 300 homes

6:20:43on sprawl and green space.

6:20:46Well, your worship.

6:20:47Like what's what, we could be here all day

6:20:48to determine what's better environmentally.

6:20:50Are you looking for council to actually move a motion

6:20:53or something right now?

6:20:55Shouldn't we get to get the report back

6:20:57and then we can dive into it?

6:20:59Because if we're going out to engage in this

6:21:02and we're not asking the question,

6:21:03then we're going to be ignoring it.

6:21:05So I think we need to ask the question

6:21:07and per the approved heights that we have for the downtown

6:21:13that is sufficient to meet our requirements.

6:21:16So if you want to go higher,

6:21:18I think we need to think about what is the cost of that

6:21:20and the trade off.

6:21:27I'm going to move on.

6:21:28And if you have an actual motion or something,

6:21:31then you can table it.

6:21:32But in my view, councillor,

6:21:36you are preemptively trying to make some decisions

6:21:39and some assumptions based on a report

6:21:43that has yet to come back yet.

6:21:45We could have, I don't know, 20 story heights in the downtown

6:21:49and every single developer could build it

6:21:51in the most environmentally friendly way going.

6:21:53So to preemptively say it can only be this height

6:21:57or that height, I just,

6:21:58I think it's kind of a cart before the horse conversation.

6:22:01That's my perspective on it.

6:22:03But I'll leave it with you as we continue.

6:22:05I went to, I need to go to councillor Klassen

6:22:07who had a question and then councillor Bousadil.

6:22:12Yes, thank you through you, Mr. Mayor.

6:22:14I'm just looking at the Gantt chart on page.

6:22:17I think it's five.

6:22:19So appreciate that.

6:22:20It's the chart that has the downtown heights study,

6:22:24study lined up with the heritage conservation district study.

6:22:27So my question is related to the timing.

6:22:30I'm seeing on the chart that the conservation district study

6:22:34is potentially coming back before the height study.

6:22:37And so I was curious about how these studies will line up

6:22:43and will they be complimentary?

6:22:46Does one come before the other on purpose?

6:22:49I'm just curious about the strategy behind that.

6:22:50Thanks.

6:22:52Through you, Mr. Mayor to councillor Klassen.

6:22:55We are in constant, I guess, communication

6:22:58and working directly with the downtown heritage

6:23:01conservation project.

6:23:02So you'll have noticed they were at the open house

6:23:05with us last night.

6:23:07And our perspective is that these are not competing projects.

6:23:10They are complimentary.

6:23:12And I think you heard the delegates say that heritage

6:23:15can be an attribute of a building.

6:23:17So they're working together.

6:23:19The timing won't line up.

6:23:21This will likely, based on the last timing,

6:23:24I'm aware of will likely come forward before the next

6:23:27sort of report from the heritage conservation district study.

6:23:30But council can be assured that again,

6:23:32the two studies are working iteratively

6:23:34and informing each other.

6:23:38Okay, thank you.

6:23:39And then I'm just, I'm particularly curious

6:23:42because I think there potentially could be some design

6:23:44standards that come out of the district conservation district.

6:23:48So it doesn't matter as far as timing goes, correct?

6:23:52Through the mayor back to councillor Klassen, that's correct.

6:23:55So the plan for the heritage conservation district

6:23:59will be informed by the heights and vice versa.

6:24:03So they'll work together.

6:24:05Okay, thanks.

6:24:08Thank you, Boussatil.

6:24:09Thank you.

6:24:10And then I'm gonna go to then my, the screen

6:24:14to Kate Gibson and Karan.

6:24:17Thank you.

6:24:18And through the mayor, thank you for the presentation.

6:24:20My questions were similar to councillor Klassen's,

6:24:24but specifically around the timing

6:24:26of the downtown redevelopment and any infrastructure

6:24:30underneath whether it's water or energy,

6:24:34does that mean that this study finishes

6:24:36and then we have to rip it up to accommodate

6:24:38whatever the building study is.

6:24:40It's around the timing of that.

6:24:44Through you, Mr. Mayor to councillor Busuttil,

6:24:46similar to the heritage conservation district study,

6:24:48we are working closely with the downtown infrastructure team

6:24:52to make sure that the heights and the capacity,

6:24:55the heights that we're thinking about

6:24:56and the capacity that we're building for are aligned.

6:24:59And in fact, when we're thinking about infrastructure,

6:25:02those decisions are much longer,

6:25:04much beyond the planning horizon.

6:25:06So, even if we think about the maximum capacity

6:25:09that we have for 2051 from a planning perspective,

6:25:12we are thinking about beyond that

6:25:14in terms of infrastructure.

6:25:16So the other thing that we are doing

6:25:18through that project is talking with developers

6:25:21that we know are either sort of in pre-consultation

6:25:23or have applications to see if there are ways

6:25:25that we can sort of do the servicing sort of the lot line

6:25:29so that we don't have to rip up brand new streets

6:25:32or change brand new infrastructure.

6:25:35So all of those confrontations are happening now

6:25:38through this project,

6:25:39ongoing through the downtown infrastructure work

6:25:41and then again, ongoing discussions

6:25:43with the development community as we move forward.

6:25:47Thank you.

6:25:49Thank you.

6:25:50Kate and please then Gibson.

6:25:53Thank you.

6:25:53Through you, Mr. Mayor.

6:25:55So I know that a lot of the built,

6:26:01the building codes basically do not enforce accessibility

6:26:05unless the buildings are above a certain height.

6:26:07So I was just wondering if it's possible

6:26:10when you're doing the study to kind of qualify

6:26:14how many accessible apartments

6:26:17that different height levels would unlock

6:26:20given that they do it by percentage

6:26:22of the total units in the building.

6:26:30Yeah, we can, sorry, through you Mr. Mayor,

6:26:33we can look and pull that information

6:26:36talk with our colleagues in the building department

6:26:38and see what information we can email back to you.

6:26:42It would be based on assumptions

6:26:43because not every building footprint

6:26:45accommodates the same number of units,

6:26:46but we can get you some general information on that.

6:26:50Great, thank you so much.

6:26:53Thank you.

6:26:54Gibson and then Karan.

6:26:57Just a comment from me.

6:26:59I think I could just have developed a meeting

6:27:03a while back and it was about a building in the downtown

6:27:07where they don't need allowed to go up.

6:27:09And I just, I just dawned on me that,

6:27:12we're looking at these buildings once every 70 to 80 years.

6:27:17And so I would encourage staff

6:27:19and council in the public for that matter

6:27:21to really envision what downtown will look like

6:27:25in the year sort of, I guess, 2100,

6:27:3170, 80 years from now,

6:27:32not what it looks like in 10, 15 years from now

6:27:34because when you redevelop one of these buildings,

6:27:37you really are looking at it for a 75 year time period.

6:27:40So we get one shot at these.

6:27:42So it's important that we take that long of a look at

6:27:46what the downtown's gonna look like

6:27:47in the next 75 to 80 years.

6:27:49So that'll be the lens that I'm looking at moving forward.

6:27:53Okay, thank you.

6:27:54And Karan.

6:27:56Thanks for you, Mr. Mayor.

6:27:57You mentioned several times on this Lachlan

6:28:00in your presentation, the downtown secondary plan.

6:28:03And it is an award-winning plan.

6:28:06So normally when we're looking at new policies,

6:28:10we look at those award-winning plans.

6:28:12Recognizing times have changed, obviously.

6:28:16I just wanna make sure that the principles of the plan,

6:28:19which were the reason why it won an award,

6:28:21not necessarily the heights,

6:28:23but the principles behind that downtown secondary plan

6:28:26are still very much alive and intact

6:28:28and being considered as part of this review.

6:28:34Through you, Mr. Mayor, to Councillor Caron.

6:28:35I think absolutely.

6:28:37We are intending to look at those building heights,

6:28:40but we are not revisiting the plan in its entirety.

6:28:44So the vision still stands, those objectives

6:28:46and all of that still provide that very important guidance.

6:28:49All of the other downtown projects that we were working on,

6:28:51the Downtown Heritage Conservation District,

6:28:53downtown infrastructure, all of those,

6:28:56we lean on that plan, again,

6:28:58to help provide the basis or the framework.

6:29:00So yes, still a very important plan

6:29:03to help guide the future of downtown.

6:29:05Great, thanks.

6:29:07Also in your presentation,

6:29:08I think there were two mentions of the province's

6:29:11blanket 23-story EDIC to MZO in effect,

6:29:15that was tabled and then revoked.

6:29:19I just wanna make sure that that is not being seen at all

6:29:22by planning staff as any indication

6:29:25of any kind of a wealth solution.

6:29:27Only, I mean, that may be in your study, the outcome,

6:29:30but that that is not being seen as

6:29:34some kind of a planning exercise

6:29:36because I believe one of our big criticisms as a council

6:29:39was that there was no data behind it,

6:29:41no evidence behind it, no engagement behind it.

6:29:44It was arbitrary and we were all quite relieved

6:29:47when that was revoked.

6:29:49So there's no basis for that 23 stories

6:29:57in as you're moving forward,

6:29:59looking at an arbitrary number.

6:30:04Through you, Mr. Mayor, to Councillor Caron,

6:30:05that's absolutely correct.

6:30:07It was fairly arbitrary and isn't really influencing

6:30:11our study at this point at all.

6:30:17Thank you, Donor, and then to Guller.

6:30:22Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

6:30:22So I think you've kind of already answered this,

6:30:25but I just wanna confirm this too,

6:30:26that the secondary plan was it was expanded

6:30:32to take in like from Gordon, over to Dumblin,

6:30:36right into the ward, all the way to Huron Street.

6:30:40It doesn't really, it's not just the downtown

6:30:43as we think about it, it was an expanded boundary.

6:30:47And part of it was that was recognizing the change

6:30:50that was gonna be happening in the neighborhood

6:30:52and to create some opportunities for extra heights

6:30:58in those areas, but that they would be transitional.

6:31:02So is that still, so when you think of the existing

6:31:05guidelines in the secondary plan,

6:31:08are those the types of guidelines

6:31:10that you're still thinking about?

6:31:12The reason why we expanded the boundaries

6:31:15of the downtown secondary plan?

6:31:19Through you, Mr. Mayor, to Councillor Downer.

6:31:21Yeah, so the downtown secondary plan,

6:31:23like the boundary was expanded for a bunch of reasons.

6:31:26And again, sort of the urban growth center,

6:31:28which was, we were required to plan for.

6:31:30That was hard.

6:31:32In terms of height, I think it was sort of,

6:31:35we did place it at sort of topographically low places

6:31:38around the edges.

6:31:40There was opportunity for height,

6:31:42or additional density actually would be a better way

6:31:44to say that in the sort of that new Eastern part of downtown,

6:31:48which is sort of the West part of the ward.

6:31:51But I think making sure through this study

6:31:53that we have appropriate transitions

6:31:55is still an important aspect.

6:31:58So when we're looking at the impacts of height,

6:32:00like the sunshadow impacts, the wind impacts,

6:32:02and all of that, I think that's where we capture

6:32:05where there's appropriate transition

6:32:06and how we transition from taller buildings

6:32:08to surrounding areas.

6:32:10Okay, thank you.

6:32:13Thank you, and to Gullar.

6:32:15Thank you for your worship.

6:32:16I've sent a motion to the clerics.

6:32:20If I could ask it to,

6:32:23and that the environmental impact of built form,

6:32:26including carbon footprint, energy consumption,

6:32:28house gas emission, and heat islands be considered

6:32:31as part of the downtown building height study.

6:32:33And I believe I have a second there in Councillor Caron.

6:32:39And my comments to this is that I think

6:32:42this should be part of the conversation.

6:32:43It could be that it comes back and we hear,

6:32:46everyone in Guals says, I don't care, make it tall.

6:32:49But I think it should be part of the conversation

6:32:51as we consider heights and the impact to our downtown.

6:32:59Okay, could staff respond to this?

6:33:01I have a lot of concerns about this,

6:33:03but I wanna hear staff.

6:33:07Through you, Mr. Mayor to Councillor Gullar.

6:33:11I would suggest that I also have concerns

6:33:13with the request in terms of,

6:33:15A, it would definitely add time.

6:33:17It would be a scope change for the project.

6:33:18So that needs to be understood.

6:33:21Secondly, there are so many ways to build buildings.

6:33:24So, if you decide one method for a six-story building

6:33:27versus another, like the environmental footprint

6:33:30or carbon footprint or environmental impact of that building

6:33:33could be quite different depending on how it's built.

6:33:35So I think there's many different iterations

6:33:39of the same building and it almost makes the question

6:33:42impossible to answer in a real way.

6:33:45So I worry about being able to come back to you

6:33:48with information that you can rely on

6:33:52to help you make that decision.

6:33:55Again, going back to Ms. Swachie's earlier comments,

6:33:57I think that study is the more appropriate place

6:34:00for those types of questions to be asked.

6:34:04So I would suggest that and we wouldn't be able

6:34:07to answer that question in the timeline

6:34:09that we've laid out for sure.

6:34:13Thank you.

6:34:15I'll call the vote then.

6:34:16Is there anybody against?

6:34:18Please raise your hand.

6:34:21Richardson, Downer,

6:34:24Uzutil, Guthrie,

6:34:27O'Rourke, Klassen, Chiu, Gibson, and Billings.

6:34:35So that fails.

6:34:36So we are back to just the regular,

6:34:40as I called it, the kickoff motion.

6:34:43Quick comment or?

6:34:44Just on that last motion, I just thought about fine,

6:34:48it's not gonna, we wouldn't have changed my vote,

6:34:50but can those types of issues,

6:34:53because I think they're important,

6:34:54be looked at through the green standards,

6:35:01green built standards that, what do they call them?

6:35:05Green development standards.

6:35:06Green development standards that other municipalities

6:35:10all around us are doing.

6:35:11So Waterloo is doing them, Kitchener is doing them.

6:35:15Yeah, yeah, and Wellington County.

6:35:17So is there an opportunity,

6:35:19are we going down that road and if so, when?

6:35:26Yeah, it's for the mayor to the council.

6:35:28So yes, we are.

6:35:29We've just awarded RFP to help us on that.

6:35:32And we'll be, you'll hear from us probably mid 2025.

6:35:35It'll take a little bit while to that.

6:35:37We're also cognizant of some of the other appeals

6:35:39that have been happening with green development standards.

6:35:41So we are aware of that as well as we move forward.

6:35:44Okay, that's good.

6:35:45So I think, I just think that's where it's appropriately based.

6:35:50Okay, great.

6:35:52Oh, sorry, councillor too,

6:35:53did you want to jump in before I call the vote?

6:35:55Go ahead.

6:35:57Mr. Mayor, I just want to get some confirmation from staff.

6:36:01Like I'm just looking at some of the study considerations

6:36:03and the last bullet point talks about impacts

6:36:06on public spaces, including gathering spaces and streets.

6:36:10I'm just looking at some tall building guidelines

6:36:13from other places like to Toronto.

6:36:16They have a section that kind of talks

6:36:18about the pedestrian realm and that kind of incorporates

6:36:21some of the thoughts that councillor Goller has

6:36:24with urban heat island effect, right?

6:36:27Just looking at like precedents

6:36:30for different streetscape materiality.

6:36:34Is it possible that that can be addressed

6:36:36in like a similar fashion that other

6:36:41comparator municipalities have?

6:36:43Like I think it's just a matter of acknowledging

6:36:45that these are, there's some best practices out there

6:36:48that we need to address.

6:36:50And it would be a desire to incorporate,

6:36:52but I don't think we need to do like a full on like study.

6:36:56Right?

6:36:57So I maybe just to get to the crux of what some

6:37:01of our colleagues are thinking about.

6:37:04Could we just get a response on that?

6:37:08Through you, Mr. Mayor and to councillor Chew.

6:37:10So a couple of things we are doing a municipal scan

6:37:13as part of this.

6:37:14So, and then the second part,

6:37:17not the official plan amendment part,

6:37:18but the built form standards would start to get

6:37:21at those type of issues.

6:37:21So yes, that type of thing is in scope materiality.

6:37:26And again, like we talked about the sun shadow impacts,

6:37:29wind impacts, those are within scope of the project.

6:37:34Thank you.

6:37:35I think just as a suggestion,

6:37:37if we can kind of point it out

6:37:40through some of the wording, just to make it more clear,

6:37:44I think that would be appreciated.

6:37:45So just a comment from me, that's all.

6:37:55Okay. Thank you.

6:37:56All right.

6:37:57Let's call the vote then as anyone

6:38:00against the main recommendation.

6:38:04That is unanimous as well.

6:38:06Thank you very much.

6:38:09We are now moving into a different section of the agenda,

6:38:13which is eight Mitchell Street.

6:38:16We have one, two, three, four, five.

6:38:18So we have seven delegations for this.

6:38:20And then we have other delegations on the next matter

6:38:24for 37 Christie.

6:38:26And so I'd like to try to get those two done back to back.

6:38:30With that in mind, I think it'd be better proper

6:38:34for us to take a five minute break right now

6:38:36so that we could then come back

6:38:37and get those two things done.

6:38:39I'd like to try to get through those.

6:38:40So let's take a almost 10 minute break.

6:38:43Okay. So 940 will come back

6:38:45and then we'll attack those last two items.

6:38:47Okay. Thank you so much.

6:49:13Okay. I'd like to call the meeting back to order, please.

6:49:24I'd like to call the meeting back to order.

6:49:26If the gallery could take their seats, we'd appreciate it.

6:49:28So we can get many of you might even be here for this item.

6:49:31So we are at a decision meeting report now