Code of Conduct for Council and Local Boards, included as Attachment-3 to report 2025-44…

1:05:10so you can go right ahead and after that laura-lairut will also join us as well so dylan you're first

1:05:20thank you very much mr mayor i'm happy to be here to present the 2025 governance review to city council

1:05:26for consideration this is the fifth governance review the city clerk's office has conducted

1:05:31since we began the process close to a decade ago and i want to spend just a couple of minutes this

1:05:35morning outlining the impact that these reviews have had governance reviews in guelph are conducted

1:05:41twice per term of council once early in the term and once in the midterm mark like today's report

1:05:47any governance related policy procedure or bylaw is on the table for each review and the city clerk's

1:05:52office uses the reviews to ensure that all of the city's governance related documents are up to date

1:05:57and reflect best practices in municipal governance by combining governance updates into a single report

1:06:03we ensure that matters of governance are never considered in isolation but as part of the broader

1:06:07system of government in guelph as part of previous governance reviews over the last 10 years city

1:06:13council has amended updated or approved the procedure bylaw five times the closed meeting

1:06:18protocol variety of policies and procedures related to ceo recruitment selection and performance

1:06:24policies and procedures related to the recruitment and hiring and contract administration of

1:06:28municipal officers like the treasurer or clerk several amendments to the delegation of authority

1:06:32bylaw the committee of the whole terms of reference the code of conduct for council and local boards

1:06:37policies and procedures impacting advisory committees we approved a petition policy we

1:06:42approved a city council vacancy policy and that's just a snapshot of the work that we've been able

1:06:46to move forward using this process most of these updates are made proactively not reactively to

1:06:52something happening in the city at the moment to highlight the value of this approach we can look at

1:06:57the recent ceo recruitment process as part of the 2021 governance review city council approved a

1:07:04variety of policies and processes related to ceo recruitment and selection in 2021 there was no

1:07:10expectation that those policies would be immediately used but when the ceo position did become vacant

1:07:15in 2024 city council was able to efficiently effectively and transparently hire a new ceo

1:07:21without the need to review or amend any policies or processes we had the playbook ready to go it

1:07:26was approved by council and staff went out and executed it that's the value of these reviews

1:07:31they ensure that wealth governance system is effective and efficient in the face of changing

1:07:35legislative environments changing technological environments and changing resident expectations

1:07:41topics included in the 2025 governance review have been added in one of two ways staff include

1:07:47proactive changes to ensure the resilience of our systems moving forward and we also respond to

1:07:51requests from individual members of city council city council as a body and advisory committees

1:07:57of council where they've passed relevant motions the significant staff recommended changes in this

1:08:03review are in response to what we see impacting other municipalities across the province not issues

1:08:08that gulf currently faces we're very lucky in gulf to have a council that treats each other staff

1:08:13and community members with respect and the procedural changes proposed today will ensure

1:08:17that council and meeting chairs can continue to effectively manage meetings should that ever cease

1:08:22to be the case in the future also included in this report are updates to the city of gulf code

1:08:27of conduct as recommended by the city's integrity commissioner in response to resolutions of council

1:08:32passed in 2024 laura dean from aird and burles the city's integrity commissioner is available today

1:08:37to answer any questions that members of council have finally there are also resolutions from the

1:08:42accessibility advisory committee included in this review and laura ly route the chair of the aac is

1:08:47here to speak about those resolutions so i will pass things over to chair root thank you so much

1:08:55uh chair root we'll just wait for you to uh come on screen virtually to uh

1:09:02hello yeah we can hear you i'm having trouble with my webcam this morning so we might have to just

1:09:08stick to hearing me is that all right oh yeah of course and you're coming through yeah you're

1:09:13coming through very clear so uh you can go right ahead uh whenever you're ready thank you so much

1:09:21thank you all for hearing me out again today it's always a pleasure to be here i don't have a lot

1:09:27to go over so this should be pretty quick i'm just here today representing the aac in this discussion

1:09:34in october as dylan as click mcman mentioned we passed a number of motions regarding our

1:09:40governance and i'm happy to answer any questions that you have about those motions here today i

1:09:45believe they were all included in the information package you all received just as a brief overview

1:09:51the general theme of these motions was a desire um to be more involved in our own governance

1:09:57essentially in a lot of ways the aac is very different than other acocs and we believe that

1:10:03those differences are important to keep in mind in this conversation firstly the aac is a statutory

1:10:10acoc our involvement in city business and our existence are mandated by the provincial government

1:10:16under the accessibility for ontarians with disabilities act um but perhaps the most

1:10:21important factor is that we are a group made up of marginalized people the a the aac membership

1:10:27must be comprised by a majority of people with disabilities under the aod a so we're all subject

1:10:34matter experts in disability rights and accessibility and with equity being important to the city of

1:10:40gulf it's also very important to involve us pretty heavily in decisions that impact our impact our

1:10:46membership and our governance it brings to mind the saying nothing about us without us um which

1:10:52outlines how no decisions impacting disabled people should be made without heavy involvement of those

1:10:57same people so in october of this year we passed four motions relating to our governance um we

1:11:04asked for increased engagement with staff we asked to be involved in the reworking of some of the

1:11:10orientation documents for the aac um we asked to be more involved in the scheduling of our meetings

1:11:17and finally we asked for council to revisit the process through which the aac members are appointed

1:11:22to include more involvement from the aac we would really like the opportunity to make recommendations

1:11:28to council about the membership the same way that staff do and we'd also like to be made aware of

1:11:34the staff recommendations as well um this is not at all born out of a lack of trust in staff's

1:11:39ability to recommend good members it's instead coming from a place of the aac wanting to be

1:11:45involved as well since our lived experience may help us identify gaps or highlight things that

1:11:50people without our lived experience might not see as easily collaboratively with staff we think we

1:11:55could work together to make very good recommendations that could strengthen the representation of

1:12:00individuals in our city um i don't want to presume what will work best for staff or for

1:12:05council in terms of what this collaboration would look like operationally so we'd be very

1:12:10interested in just working with staff on setting up a system that works well uh from an operational

1:12:14standpoint um but yeah that's pretty much it just the city has an accessibility advisory committee

1:12:21for expressly this purpose to advise on ways to strengthen accessibility in our city and what

1:12:27our membership looks like when we meet and what our training looks like are all things that

1:12:31fall under our purview so we hope you will consider drawing us drawing on us more heavily in these

1:12:37matters thank you so much thank you for your presentation is there a follow-up question i've

1:12:43got galler and then uh busatil please go ahead um thank you and through your worship uh thank you

1:12:50mrute for for the presentation um i i really uh understand where you're coming from staff did

1:12:57let us know that there may be there may be a question concern here what happens when the

1:13:03accessibility advisory committee recommends someone say and then council because we have

1:13:08made these decisions in in a closed uh meeting what happens if we decide not to follow the

1:13:13recommendation and that happens in a closed meeting how would that actually impact the relation

1:13:19between members of the accessibility advisory committee knowing that perhaps that the person

1:13:24that was appointed was not the one that was recommended by the committee and and per our

1:13:31the way that council works we would not actually be able to give a rationale or explain why we make

1:13:35decisions that happened in a closed meeting so i'm just going to jump in uh rely on and council

1:13:44i feel a little bit like your question might be out of order only because nothing has been

1:13:51tabled yet in regards to that matter councillor i believe kate might look to move some amendments

1:13:58in regards to that then at that time it could be um if your questions could be there i understand

1:14:05probably why you're asking it now because the representative is here yeah so i'm following

1:14:09you on that um so um i'll i'll allow this one okay but but i i'd rather not be going back and forth

1:14:20on something that is not technically on the floor yet but we do know something's coming and with

1:14:25making sure we have engagement i understand so go go ahead i'll allow it but just be aware okay everyone

1:14:38okay laura light i think you just have to press star six or unmute oh just unmute sorry just unmute

1:14:44not star six oh you're right thank you so much you're there you're there go go ahead and answer

1:14:48councillor goller thank you very much maria gathry um through you maria gathry the councillor goller

1:14:54we we are very used to um sometimes making recommendations that aren't we i think i can

1:15:01speak for everyone on the aac that we have a lot of faith in council and um we would we would be

1:15:09very used to making recommendations that aren't followed through because we only can recommend

1:15:16from our experience and our place of expertise whereas council and staff have a lot more expertise

1:15:23in these areas a lot of the time so i don't i don't foresee that being an issue but um

1:15:29i i hope that answers your question it does thank you very much i appreciate it thank you worship

1:15:35thank you in yourself uh councillor busadil yes thank you and thank you for your presentation

1:15:42i just have a question about kind of the operation of the aac and again i come from you know school

1:15:47board and education and and school councils in may of each year school councils have an

1:15:53opportunity to say these are the kinds of skills that we hope for a principal that the school board

1:15:59will appoint to a school so i i see a difference between a process where the aac says we see some

1:16:08skills gaps in the aac some representation and so on that then informs the you know staff selection

1:16:16i see a difference between that versus a specific individual and looking at individual applications

1:16:23do you currently do that as a committee that looks at how how you can be more effective

1:16:30in general without any specific applications and providing that kind of input i've done it again

1:16:42i couldn't find my unmute button i'm sorry uh through you mayor got three two councillor

1:16:47yes we we do already actually do that um when new applications are opened the staff liaison

1:16:54comes to the aac and says are there any current service gaps that you would like us to address

1:16:59and look for in these applications so for example if we notice we no longer have any

1:17:05individuals who remember the blind community we might bring that up um but that still leaves

1:17:12area for us to not be heavily involved in if say there is an organization that members of the

1:17:18community are aware um is not an organization that members of that community are comfortable

1:17:25with representing us for example um that might not be something that staff are aware of and if

1:17:32they put forward a recommendation and we would be able to highlight that and say that might not

1:17:37be something that represents the disabled community well that organization um

1:17:42whereas we can't do that currently because we don't see applications and we aren't aware of any

1:17:47specific recommendations so we were hoping for added involvement past what we have now

1:17:54sorry just to follow up if i may through the mayor so what what i'm hearing is that

1:18:00gaps in the operation of the aac representation service um you currently do and you provide that

1:18:08to staff but it sounds like it's the other side of the coin which is um somehow advising to staff

1:18:15that and correct me if i misunderstood that there may be representation that is not as desired to

1:18:23reflect the needs of the community is that is is that what's missing is the uh the concern on the

1:18:30flip side yeah and not necessarily just um that there are like problematic things but just that

1:18:38with us only having the ability to identify service gaps and not to really look at at

1:18:45applications and say wow this person would actually be fantastic and fill a gap that we

1:18:49haven't thought of but now that we see that application that makes a lot of sense um there

1:18:55are just some things that we might catch that that folks who aren't members of the disabled

1:18:59community might not and sorry through the mayor just my last final clarification so when you

1:19:06identify gaps it's not only representation but also skills that might benefit the operation of the

1:19:13aac um and do you see space to have those kinds of company yeah so it's both skills and representation

1:19:21is that correct yes they do ask us for that however i you know before i joined the aac i i doubt

1:19:29anybody thought like it would be great to have a disabled disability like um digital accessibility

1:19:35specialist on you know what i mean but if someone saw that on an application they might think wait

1:19:40a minute we don't have anyone with specific skills around digital accessibility involved in the aac

1:19:46so um yeah that that is what we're looking for thank you thank you see nothing further thank you

1:19:56very much for joining us today and and with that we're going to move into delegations so our first

1:20:04is uh mike ashkoui is going to come on up see there might come on down when you're available is more

1:20:11is more in uh ashkoui here as well is more in here no and so more in is not here and then

1:20:24morgan is here we just heard from you there so thank you for joining us morgan uh mike will go

1:20:30with you and then morgan you're in the wings we'll just turn the mic on there for you mike

1:20:37where is it is it on now oh beautiful in surround sound just uh just so everyone knows uh five minutes

1:20:44is yeah is the allotted time you'll hear the time at the four minutes thirty second mark okay beautiful

1:20:49microphones do get turned off at five minutes so just be aware go ahead mike okay so good morning

1:20:54council and mr mayor so my name is mike ashkoui i'm representing myself but also as a member of the

1:20:59disabled community one of the reasons that i'm delegating today is um i want to acknowledge the

1:21:06great work that staff has done with working with us on the aac but as others laura lie had mentioned

1:21:14we're looking to strengthen the relationships within our community when i was asked to join the aac

1:21:20it wasn't by staff it was members of the community outreaching to me had said mike you have a wonderful

1:21:26set of skills in media you have a very strong voice and you're willing to stand up and as part of

1:21:32my indigenous teachings that i've learned over the course of through the community here in guelph

1:21:37and recognizing recognizing there's a number of disabled indigenous individuals it's community

1:21:43that helps build us so the thing that i'm looking to build with staff and the city is very much along

1:21:49the lines of nothing about us without us and by having those community strength relationships

1:21:55we can help you find the gaps that exist find people in communities that are maybe under service

1:22:01because we as disabled individuals we know our community better than some members of staff

1:22:08potentially and we're only looking to strengthen that relationship so we can help the aac serve the

1:22:14city better to serve this community better and as this city has demonstrated through its actions

1:22:19with staff our communications we've had through multiple people and chairs and vice-chairs myself

1:22:24included at one point we just want to help make things better by having a voice in that room

1:22:31we can help deepen community bonds we can help strengthen community relationships and that may

1:22:36open us as i think uh councillor busatel had mentioned finding other people in the community who

1:22:42may not be represented so by having a voice in that room and helping selecting members and helping

1:22:48be present in that conversation we really can help make this a more collaborative cooperation between

1:22:56us and city staff and like i said i really want to see us embrace that nothing about us without us

1:23:01because i really think by all of us working together by having voices in that room with

1:23:05different lived experience and helping staff make better informed decisions we can really make some

1:23:11powerful work here in guelph and that's primarily what i want like i said it's one thing i've learned

1:23:16through my indigenous side is we grow stronger as a community through talk through listening

1:23:24and yeah there's going to be some disagreements from now and again but we learn from that because

1:23:28confrontation can lead to conversation and that's always a good thing when we can talk

1:23:34we can make better decisions and that's ultimately what i want i want all of us to make better

1:23:38decisions for everybody to make guelph the most accessible place it possibly can be so i really

1:23:43hope that other delegates will speak to this as well and like i said i really think there is a

1:23:49powerful moment for all of us to have a voice in that room to make a better aac and to make a better

1:23:55city for guelph its residents and for those who don't have a disability right now but for the future

1:24:00as well i will thank you thanks a lot mic no thank you very much uh councillor roark is just

1:24:08going to follow up with a question to you thank you margith through you through our delegate

1:24:13i'm just curious um i've been on on boards where we you know want a constant outreach to people

1:24:21because we know we're looking for certain skill sets and so we'll say hey is this of interest

1:24:26and then we encourage them to apply through the process that exists so i'm wondering and it sounds

1:24:32like that was the case with you somebody said to you you would be great on this committee you should

1:24:37really apply so i'm wondering why is that kind of outreach uh in addition to a conversation with

1:24:46staff to say we're really looking for this skill set why is that insufficient um because i mean

1:24:55it worked for you and we also want to try and keep an open process so anybody can apply i think

1:25:01having a disabled voice in the room because we have a lived experience that you don't we're able

1:25:06to identify people in our community that you don't necessarily know like there could be someone for

1:25:11example when i go down to a sake a sacred fire for example that's a space it's not that you're not

1:25:18welcome in but you're not necessarily there so that's more expertise that i bring to the table

1:25:24that you wouldn't have and having a community voice in that room allows us to give you a more

1:25:28breadth of experience and knowledge and information you may not necessarily have have access to so we're

1:25:34just asking to supplement whatever staff has whenever they want to make or a recommendation

1:25:41having a voice with that lived experience that relationship with community is something that

1:25:46may not necessarily exist at the staff level we have the personal relationships okay thanks nothing

1:25:56further for you mike but we appreciate you being here thank you and then morgan dandy you're you're

1:26:01able to come down after mike now welcome morgan and uh you know the the drill i think here again

1:26:40just no more than five minutes the warning chime at four minutes and 30 seconds and uh thank you

1:26:46for being here go right ahead i never realized how much easier the world would be for everyone

1:27:00if disabled people were at the table until i accepted i am disabled

1:27:07as one of the first in canada to be diagnosed with fibromyalgia in 1991 i had been living with a

1:27:14disability and using an ableist mindset until i met some of the disabled community here in 2022

1:27:24after i accepted i am disabled i became more aware of all the things i had never noticed

1:27:33mayor counselors staff by having members of the accessibility advisory committee be in addition

1:27:40to the selection of its members i believe only good can come of it guelph and the county of

1:27:48wellington have begun to include my unhoused neighbors in conversations about homelessness

1:27:54responses and solutions and i believe by including disabled lived experience in the selection process

1:28:00we will only enhance our responses and solutions to issues regarding our disabled community

1:28:07this council is fortunate to have disability advocate counselor katin and i'm grateful for

1:28:14their expertise in bringing more awareness to various measures that have already been taken

1:28:20within the city my hope is that this council will recognize the value of having such a

1:28:27expertise now and how future councils will benefit from that no one on council is expected

1:28:36to be an expert on everything that's why we have staff to help you make decisions

1:28:43and i believe that we should provide the same ability to receive information from the community

1:28:48we are serving through the aac i'm so glad staff are so cautious and proud of our community

1:28:55staff are so cautious and brought forward concerns about all acocs having this ability

1:29:02and my belief is that the advisor accessibility accessibility advisory committee is a special

1:29:10acoc in that it's struck for a specific segment of the population which is one of the most

1:29:16marginalized communities in our city you know my friend kate would have stood here and stood up for

1:29:24the dis but disabled community because not only is it an equity deserving community but also the

1:29:31intersectionalities with our homeless neighbors are significant the concerns of staff can be

1:29:39mitigated by limiting the collaboration between staff and acocs in making new member recommendations

1:29:48to the accessibility advisory committee in recognition of the complex nature of disabilities

1:29:56and how we as disabled people are forced to interact in the world by providing staff with the

1:30:03knowledge of those with lived experience i believe we will enhance the quality of advice

1:30:09coming from the accessibility advisory committee which will enhance the quality of life for everyone

1:30:16and guave thank you very much morgan and is there any follow-up questions for this delegation

1:30:25i don't see any thank you very much for your perspectives okay it is back to us then

1:30:33could someone at least just move the six motions that are on the floor uh sorry that's

1:30:38that are recommendations would someone at least move those busitil and downer okay thank you and

1:30:45now just to be um aware of flow i think the fact that um we have the integrity commissioner

1:30:52available if needed i would like to concentrate any questions to the integrity commissioner

1:30:58on anything that's in the report that you need any kind of update on because then we can get rid of

1:31:04not rid of but we can we can we can get through that process and then we can go back to some other

1:31:09stuff um as well so uh galler you had your hand up so maybe what we'll do is we'll get um

1:31:16is it laura dean available is it just by phone or video okay laura you could join us you are

1:31:24hi laura thank you very much for joining us morning members of council thank you um so there's just

1:31:31a few hands that went up here i thought we would just get to your um expertise first so i'll just

1:31:37concentrate the questions on that we'll go with galler and then katin okay go right ahead uh thank

1:31:44you to your worship to miss zine um i wanted to ask about the recommendation uh specifically

1:31:51that in social media uh during a time of election um for members that maintain two accounts um in

1:32:00their in their election account they're not to mention their title so help me understand how is

1:32:07that workable if if uh if it's an an election campaign um and people are talking about their

1:32:14track record and they're not allowed to mention anywhere in their social media that you know what

1:32:19they have done as a city councillor because they're not allowed to say the words city councillor so if

1:32:24you can help me understand that and um and also help me understand you know which other municipalities

1:32:30have implemented this ban that people are not allowed to talk about and specifically i understand

1:32:35the logos the city resources all of that makes sense the only question that i have is that on

1:32:40you can talk about what you have done as a city councillor or that you have been a city councillor

1:32:48through you your worship and thank you for the question um the idea behind

1:32:54having the two separate accounts is is to ensure that when members of the public are

1:33:01uh looking at or on social media they would see that a particular uh councillor isn't um

1:33:10it comes from the idea that a member of councillor already has an advantage in an election over others

1:33:16who are not recognizable as members of council and so uh the suggestion is that there be a distance

1:33:23in the social media um from uh a reference to the position as a member of council and and that's

1:33:31just so that it evens the playing field but that doesn't mean that you can't talk about your track

1:33:37record it's more of an identification in the handle um so that it's clear that uh there's a specific

1:33:44um uh account that is is uh for the election and then there would be another account that is for

1:33:55you as a member okay okay i i appreciate that um and and to me that makes sense however the

1:34:02recommendation that came from your office to us said a member's title is not to be used in a member

1:34:07social media for election campaign purposes so if i am not to have my title anywhere then how can i

1:34:14realistically talk about so that's what i'm trying to understand uh it feels like the recommendation

1:34:19is not workable in the real world um so to this is there a possibility you know have you looked

1:34:26at other municipalities that have this restriction yes so this particular restriction on election

1:34:33matters um is modified from the city of toronto's uh code of conduct uh they have a policy document

1:34:40that provides guidance for election campaigns and so there are um in this we've we've created um

1:34:50approaches so the first approach of course is maintaining a separate election account

1:34:54and so that it's clear that one account relates entirely to election purposes um and and that you

1:35:02would have another account that serves you as a member um when you're interacting with constituents

1:35:07in the community where election matters would not be um discussed um and then of course there's

1:35:14the other option which is maintaining a single account um that would be subject to restricted use

1:35:19um and then in that case there are some more um specific guidance uh around how that would be

1:35:27managed okay i i i appreciate that now from from your perspective and i totally understand

1:35:34having a separate account or if you have one account not using it um for for the for the election

1:35:41or or removing instances of who you're for the election but i'm going back to this one sentence

1:35:48that says a member's title is not to be used in a member's social media for election campaign purposes

1:35:55okay that that makes makes sense to me that you're not going to to leverage you're not going to use

1:36:00the city logos but if i'm not to use the title then i can't say over the last four years as a

1:36:07councillor i have supported traffic coming policies because by saying that i'm in contravention

1:36:13so from your perspective if we were to remove that one restriction but leave everything else

1:36:19this is would that still create that separation i i think it could i think um it's more maybe just

1:36:27about the actual handle where it would say you know councillor x city of guelph um that i think is

1:36:34where the issue arises less so in discussing your track record in your history that is not what this

1:36:41is intended to cover okay okay thank you thank you for that explanation and i i think when i

1:36:48read this it gives me concern that any one that has held an office if they talk about it

1:36:54and anywhere in a in a in a video in a in a response to someone they say this is what i did

1:37:00as a city councillor they can co-point to this policy and they said in this election campaign

1:37:06you mentioned that you were a city councillor so you're in contravention so so yeah so i'm going to

1:37:13maybe be moving a motion to change that and i hear that the concern is that it shouldn't be the

1:37:17handle it shouldn't be councillor reelected i appreciate that thank you

1:37:24thank you good good question uh katin alt or rork thank you through you mr mayor um i have a

1:37:33number of questions on this so i apologize in advance uh so i personally have 4 306 accounts

1:37:42blocked on my personal twitter and 242 blocked on my council twitter so what is the estimated cost

1:37:50to council if i am going to be checking in with the integrity commissioner each time i'm confronted

1:37:54with bigger tree and need to block someone thank you for the question through you your mayor uh

1:38:00your worship there in this document we've of course suggested that members of council could

1:38:08if there's uncertainty refer those those questions to the integrity commissioner where there's a

1:38:15situation and there's uh you're you're not sure whether a member of the public should be blocked

1:38:21so the suggestion isn't that every time that action is taken a member comes to the integrity

1:38:26commissioner it's more to suggest that we are here so that if in the future a member of the

1:38:32public who has been blocked comes to the integrity commissioner with a complaint the member of council

1:38:37can say i have this advice from the integrity commissioner and then if a code of conduct

1:38:42complaint were to be filed the member is able to rely on the advice of the integrity commissioner

1:38:48so i think there will be cases where it's it's clear that you are being harassed you're being

1:38:53bullied and that can't stand and so the policy i think strikes a balance between allowing

1:39:00members to block members of the public in situations of abuse and clear abuse while maintaining

1:39:07uh an accessible forum for for members of the public to express dissent and so definitely

1:39:17members of council have the the wherewithal and understanding and contact with the community

1:39:22to understand when the line has been crossed and so in that case there would be no need to come to

1:39:27the integrity commissioner the suggestion is that if there are situations that may be borderline

1:39:33there's uncertainty the integrity commissioner is you know statutorily able to give that kind of

1:39:38advice and then members can rely on it and have the comfort so that if anyone comes back with

1:39:42complaints there would be no question about the the action taken by the member and that it was permitted

1:39:53thank you and so what would be the litmus test of the amount of harassment or language that

1:39:59someone like myself a multiply marginalized person would be expected to endure

1:40:04is there examples like specific slurs are okay but others are not i it's confusing because there's

1:40:12not a lot of specifics right and and i think that every would be decided on a on a case by

1:40:18case basis according to your discretion um and so you know the way that it would if there was a

1:40:24complaint that was raised the integrity commissioner would take account of the entire situation what

1:40:29was said in the context including um personal factors um that are unique to that member

1:40:36and in making the determination and so we would use a reasonable person test typically um and and so

1:40:47that would be what would guide the members can you elaborate a little bit more on what an

1:40:55reasonable person would be and who makes that assessment and is that comprised of

1:41:01marginalized groups or is it based on a law it it's not based on any law um but in this case

1:41:10that would be the standard i think that would have to be applied uh we don't want to get into too

1:41:16much detail in the um code itself about what would constitute um you know a situation in which a

1:41:23member could be blocked we have put some language in about um bullying harassment um and so those

1:41:32would be the key words that you would look to in determining whether or not somebody has crossed

1:41:37the line and and in some cases i understand that it would be subjective um based on your own lived

1:41:43experience um so so so so yeah i think what we've done again is is strike a balance where members

1:41:54can use their own discretion um and uh if a complaint was made then we would look to the

1:42:00circumstances to see whether or not um a line was crossed whether it did constitute harassment

1:42:06bullying abuse which would not be uh tolerated thank you and through the mayor um would there

1:42:15be consideration on things like different social media platforms that are no longer

1:42:21handling harassment so there's no real tools for you to report those

1:42:25within those or other ones that have rolled back protections such as meta on non binary and transgender

1:42:32people yes i would think so for sure where there is no moderation on a website and it becomes uh

1:42:40up to the users to to make those kinds of determinations then yes that would factor into

1:42:46the integrity commissioners determination as to whether the the blocking was justified in a

1:42:52particular instance thank you and uh through the mayor i was also wondering uh it wasn't clear to me

1:43:02on the the rules for personal private accounts versus um council accounts in the letter that

1:43:11was written up i saw that there was a clear distinction but in the code of conduct it seemed

1:43:14like the code was applying to to both um so i was just wondering in terms of the uh political

1:43:22opinions during elections are we being barred from having political opinions on elections and

1:43:29leadership races on both of our accounts or is it just meant to be on our council specific accounts

1:43:39so the suggestion that we've put forward is that um there's a definition you'll see on on page five

1:43:44of the opinion um where we've defined members social media and we have traditionally taken a

1:43:50very broad view of what a member's social media account is in such a way that there is almost

1:43:56no distinction between what is a personal social media account and a private social media account

1:44:01as long as a member can be identified as a member of council because for the public it's very unclear

1:44:07i think when they when they look to a member social media is this member speaking as uh

1:44:14you know my my my neighbor down the street or is this a member of council speaking in

1:44:19an official capacity and so for that reason we've always taken a broad view of what is

1:44:23a member social media and so in this case there would be some restrictions that would be placed

1:44:32on on discussion of um elections and voicing opinions in support of a particular candidate

1:44:42thank you and through the mayor um so this also would be applying to um our local boards and

1:44:49committees so we would be expecting all of our volunteers to not voice their political opinions

1:44:57on any elections and they also would not be allowed to be posting events depending on there

1:45:04there's a very specific area of events whereas i found it incredibly confusing because we say we can't

1:45:11post anything about events except events you know when you read it through and it's like

1:45:17just these local ones but not other things it's it's really unclear where the actual lines are

1:45:24meant and so um my question is um how can we expect any marginalized person to want to be a part of our

1:45:37committee or council or any of our volunteer groups if we're going to restrict their personal

1:45:42freedoms like that through your worship um this code of conduct yes i agree it applies to council

1:45:53members and of course members of local boards and so i i agree that it could place um some restrictions

1:46:00on um members of the public who would be used to voicing these opinions publicly um but the way

1:46:06that this is drafted it would cover um those individuals as well as drafted and so if there

1:46:13is some concern that it's overly broad for local members of local boards um then it could be looked

1:46:20at again but the idea is that this is meant to ensure that uh that the from the public's perspective

1:46:31um no member of council is uh or anybody that is close to the municipality in a certain way is

1:46:37exerting um sort of undue influence um based on their position and and so that's that's what we

1:46:44had in mind when when this was prepared and then in terms of events um yes so there is a carve out

1:46:52that would permit members to discuss events that they have attended ceremonies um and activities

1:46:58that are you know more relate to local matters that they have been involved in um while um

1:47:07not including other kinds of events that might be less related to the actual business of the city

1:47:16through the mayor so uh there is recently a bunch of protests against transgender rights and

1:47:25um there were counter protests for people speaking up for their human rights and we've had

1:47:32protests for the rights of people from Palestine we've had environmental protests we've had any

1:47:39number of protests uh my reading of this is that those would not be allowed to be posted on our

1:47:48social media is that correct um through you your worship i i don't read that this way um

1:48:00it it the code as as as drafted this draft it does permit um content that publicizes

1:48:07the members attendance at a ceremony event um content that will size of the members

1:48:13interactions with constituents content that raises awareness of local events and activities

1:48:18I think that would cover something in the nature of a protest so I don't see this as prohibiting

1:48:24members from communicating those types of uh um community activities to the public

1:48:33thank you very much and to the mayor so the the first two where it says we're not allowed to do

1:48:39these things seems to me to be conflicting with what we are allowed to do because it's not

1:48:48very clear or direct what is covered by the not allowed versus the allowed so um I I would I have

1:48:58some big concerns about marginalized communities and the specifics on this so I would want a lot more

1:49:09detail and clarity to to find out what exactly the intent is versus the open interpretation

1:49:16thank you thanks council kate and uh alt then or work thank you very much mayor guthrie um

1:49:26I'm struggling with this one as I do believe that a code of conduct for social media is important

1:49:32but I'm finding that there are tremendous numbers of ambiguities that are presented here

1:49:36that prevent me from supporting section eight in its entirety um but I want to start with a few

1:49:43questions and the first one is uh on page five of 17 section eight general first paragraph the

1:49:51members conduct on social media is subject to the code regardless whether the member pays for the

1:49:56social media account regardless whether the member considers the account to be personal or private

1:50:02social a social media account I'm struggling with that because it seems to me that if a person is

1:50:08in an election whether they are a candidate or a currently sitting member of council they are

1:50:14presenting from a private account and yet we are asking them to respond as if they are currently

1:50:22a member of a council and that seems inherently contradictory with page uh with what was said

1:50:29and on page um uh uh six six of 17 where a member's title is not to be used in a member's

1:50:38social media for election campaign purposes I'm I'm not clear on that ambiguity it makes no sense

1:50:46to me at all which paragraph takes precedence that you that everything is uh currently um to be

1:50:55scrutinized under this policy or that there that there are some areas that can be carved out because

1:51:02it's striking me that that if I were taking exception with any counselor here that I would go to the

1:51:07integrity commissioner and say section one applies this is on their personal stuff and the examples

1:51:13that I'll give are some of the criticisms that I've made of American politician Robert F. Kennedy

1:51:18people can take exception with that and they can take exception saying that I've stepped over the

1:51:23line I don't think I have how do we address that sort of thing and does that actually have an impact

1:51:29on my position as a counselor and possibly a counselor running for reelection

1:51:36through you marica three so just turning to page five and that provision that was was just cited

1:51:43um a member's conduct on social media subject to the code regardless of whether the member

1:51:47pays for the social media account and regardless of whether the member considers the account to be

1:51:51personal or private social media account so the idea here is the way we have always interpreted

1:51:57the code is that a member is a member at all times and so the the labeling of the account as

1:52:06personal or private is is somewhat arbitrary from our perspective because if the member is um

1:52:12making certain statements and it's understood a member of the public sees that and understands

1:52:17that that person is a member of council uh the member of the public I think is um

1:52:24uh it could be forgiven for thinking that that comment was made by the member as a as a member

1:52:30of council and so that's in the general section and then when we get to the the provisions that

1:52:36would guide the use of social media um the idea is that at an election during an election time

1:52:43the idea is that the member's title isn't used in their social media account for election

1:52:47campaigning purposes so they remember they remain a member uh in all times but um the the account

1:52:54itself is is not to be identified with the member as a member of council so you know members of the

1:53:01public will still know that that person is a member of of council but um the idea is that

1:53:07they're not promoting their title along with the campaign and I certainly understand that there is a

1:53:14higher expectation of a member of council no debate on that but the real problem here for me is that

1:53:21I'm not even clear right now whether I could put uh on a website reelect uh fill or whether that's in

1:53:29contravention if can I put that in without using the term counselor uh I would think I would think

1:53:37so yes and and we see that this comes from this these provisions are taken from the city of Toronto

1:53:42and that's certainly something that you would see on election signs within the city of Toronto

1:53:48okay thank you um a few other questions that I want to go through as well and and I do want to

1:53:53deal with the the issue of hate speech and arbitrariness um there are many things that I

1:53:58consider to be offensive and uh I would consider to be hate speech and I wonder how do we actually

1:54:05determine what line is crossed if I or if any member of council is being harassed for a particular

1:54:11view or a particular lifestyle um through your worship um I'm not sure that I understand the

1:54:22question if somebody is harassing me on my social media site and I go to block them because I consider

1:54:31it to be something that is both offensive and possibly dangerous what is the line determine

1:54:37whether something is hate speech uh or is attacking a particular way of life or a particular principle

1:54:46I understand so this is similar to the question that was raised previously um about you know what

1:54:50is the test and what is the line again it would be up to each individual council member to determine

1:54:56what that means for them um the code talks about bullying harassment and abuse and so if the

1:55:04comments that are being made rise to that level then there would be no issue with the blocking of

1:55:10that member of the public um so that that would be the test it's it's abuse harassment

1:55:19um

1:55:23abuse and harassment hateful insightful communication thank you now uh just related to that blocking

1:55:32somebody every once in a while just out of who knows where I get somebody from Australia or

1:55:38New Zealand or whatever that wants to visit my site and when I look further I discovered

1:55:44that there's something particularly heinous about that person am I okay to just block that person

1:55:50there's no hate speech they're not in the community I'm not clear on what my right is in that situation

1:56:01the way that this is drafted again we talk about members maybe justified and blocking users where

1:56:06necessary to preserve the utility of the member's social media page by preventing it from being

1:56:11overrun by spam bots or from disseminating abusive hateful and insightful communication

1:56:16so I I understand that what you said probably wouldn't be covered by this provision so it

1:56:22could be broader you know and I think it's about protecting your website your your social media

1:56:33you know and preserving the integrity of your your social media page if you believe that there

1:56:38might be some uh various purposes or or this person is you know inciting as as it says abusive

1:56:48communications then I could understand why there would be a reason to block that person

1:56:54and again the only time that um blocking is going to become an issue is if somebody makes a complaint

1:57:03certainly I understand that but what I'm talking about is that there could be people here who are

1:57:08going to be very very cautious about blocking anybody lest a complaint occur and we are I suppose

1:57:15the best way of putting it is in dangerous times if I were to talk about tariffs right now someone

1:57:20could take exception with that I might decide to block them and that might not be considered to be

1:57:25appropriate of course I don't know why we're talking about tariffs nothing's happened today

1:57:30the next question I have and it's the last one and I thank you for everything does this code apply

1:57:36to prospective candidates or candidates who have signed up to run it does not

1:57:44so would you be members of council I do have a second question then would you be of the opinion

1:57:49that we have a double standard there through your worship I I wouldn't I think members of

1:57:57council already have uh the upper hand when it comes to um elections and uh there's there's simply

1:58:07no way to apply this code of conduct to individuals that are running for for election for for council

1:58:16so no I don't believe that there is a double standard and just practically it would be um

1:58:23a real challenge to try to impose a code of conduct on non-elected individuals

1:58:31and fair enough I absolutely understand where you're coming from the the concern for me is though

1:58:37that we could actually see people who are currently sitting counselors being essentially

1:58:46well subjects of spurious attacks and I don't think anybody here would do it but not being on a level

1:58:55playing field and that that's a concern I recognize exactly what you said there is no way to to enforce

1:59:01that but nonetheless it strikes me as an inconsistency thank thanks councillor ult uh last is ororak please

1:59:12through you america 3 I'm curious it's clearly laid out in our documentation what the genesis

1:59:20of other changes are and I I understand the election one and I've always taken great pains to have

1:59:28a separate account and to start back from zero I'm curious about the general provisions though so

1:59:37there's the during the election how we comport ourselves but then the section on page six says

1:59:46uh this is sort of generally right this is all the time a member of council or a local board

1:59:53must not post the following content using any social media that at the time of posting may

1:59:59be recognized as the member social media which the documentation establishes anything could be my

2:00:05my linkedin could be my personal page um so you wouldn't be allowed to post content that

2:00:13promotes or appears to promote any third party interest including events product services or goods

2:00:19but my question to you is there are members of council who are small business owners

2:00:24or sole proprietors so is the is the intent that they then can't on a separate account

2:00:31they just have the same name maybe everyone's in a while they cheer on you know a policy for

2:00:36small business that they could not have a business uh social media account like and I'm wondering

2:00:45whether part of the complexity you can speak to this is that Toronto is a full-time council

2:00:50we're a part-time council um and it seems like the expectation here is really significant in terms of

2:00:57especially those who might have a small business and I'll have another question after

2:01:02through you your worship the the key word in this provision here is a third party interest

2:01:08so in my opinion this code would not prohibit a member from um discussing their a small business

2:01:18it's where a member appears to be promoting a uh a non-related um business within the the city or

2:01:26anywhere else that I think a member would run afoul of this provision so three America three again

2:01:33so for years I did wear and ward six and promoted a small business in the ward and at the holidays

2:01:39especially during COVID promoted shopping local by going in and featuring a new small business that's

2:01:44in the ward would this preclude a member of council from doing this or any member of a local board

2:01:52from doing something like that through you mr. Mayor looking down at the policy um so again on

2:02:01page six um there is some carve outs for content that can be posted as long as it's occasional

2:02:07voluntary unsolicited and otherwise in accordance with the code of conduct and so that includes a

2:02:12provision for content that publicizes the members interactions with constituents including local

2:02:17businesses and so I think what you're describing in terms of buying local and supporting local

2:02:23businesses would be caught by that particular carve out okay uh through you I just have another

2:02:31couple of questions mayor Guthrie I'm looking at um sorry and I've got notes and in a couple of

2:02:37different places the the definition of members social media um let's see I'm just trying to find

2:02:51it here okay contains sufficient information to enable a reasonable person to identify the members

2:02:58or current member of Gulf City Council so the reference in the handle name is not a problem

2:03:02the username not a problem the profile description or through content posted by the member

2:03:09so can you help me understand what that looks like say for example it's a a linkedin page

2:03:16or you know so I'm I'm really trying to separate out uh because I think the others are easy no

2:03:23logos no titles no handles no no referring through different engines but through content posted

2:03:32by the member so what I'm what I'm struggling with and I'll get to that in a sec say you're on

2:03:40the library board and in your content at some place it says I'm so excited that this vote

2:03:46happened I'm so proud to be on the library board and then later on you post something about you

2:03:53know this political party um has great policies supporting libraries like I'm just really confused

2:04:01about what the expectation is for members of local boards and members of a part-time council

2:04:08who wear lots of hats to have no intersecting content so I'm just wondering whether that is

2:04:16an addition to other codes uh that would be you know do you have to go through and then scrub

2:04:23everything that's that's in your even your personal uh social media content I'm really at a loss

2:04:32yeah well so this is provided as a definition of member social media and so it's it's uh the

2:04:41purpose of this section is to try to understand what might be a member's account and so uh if it

2:04:50contains sufficient information for a person to identify that person as a member of um here we have

2:04:57council uh then then that becomes their their account clearly um and so that the content that's

2:05:06posted by a person also might give away the fact that they are a part of a member a local board or

2:05:12council and so that's what this provision is intended to do is just describe when a social

2:05:19media account is clearly a member's social media account um and so um yeah I wouldn't want to conflate

2:05:29the content of what they've um I guess there's a sorry I'm just having a little bit of trouble

2:05:37separating the question between um sorry um so this is a general provision that applies at all

2:05:48times it's not election related correct so through you omega three it's in the general provisions

2:06:01right um that any member of council or of a local board would be prohibited from doing that

2:06:09and the way that we would decide whether they were I don't know a member of a a local board or council

2:06:17I don't know how we take off these hats when I go to back to my personal social media that I've had for

2:06:22you know since it launched um and in particular it's through content posted by the members so

2:06:30one could assume that throughout the city there are members of local boards and members of council

2:06:36who on their personal social media have said I'm really excited about something in the provincial

2:06:42election or are clearly a supporter of a political party let's used in the provincial election

2:06:49and we're saying now that those people who have not taken an oath of being non-partisan

2:06:55can cannot express support even for another councillor so in the past election

2:07:02there are councillors who supported their ward mate and so they would be precluded from doing that

2:07:08a member of a local board or a member of council who would know somebody who lives down the street

2:07:13who's running for council couldn't say they'd make a great councillor so I'm just concerned

2:07:19by the reach of what is proposed

2:07:29I will leave it at that

2:07:31okay thank you I have one more for questions thank you Laura for staying with us thank you Laura

2:07:36for staying with us I have one more well you might get some from me lucky you but but

2:07:42Councillor Busatel go ahead yes thank you and thank you to Councillor Oroch for

2:07:48raising the point that City of Toronto councillors are full-time but they also have full-time staff

2:07:53and I guess my question is whether or not section 8 was put through the lens of the reality of how

2:07:59we operate you know I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about the amount of documentation

2:08:05that you know for blocking a social media account that I am now responsible for retaining and

2:08:11retaining the records and so on and somehow incorporating that into my part-time role as

2:08:16I'm running around and doing everything so can you explain to me operationally when you develop this

2:08:25looking at City of Toronto versus ourselves in the roles and the time that we have to do things

2:08:33yes certainly

2:08:36this isn't meant to be overly prescriptive when it comes to the the question of blocking

2:08:41and so the idea is that members should exercise due restraint but there is justification for

2:08:50blocking and so again if somebody comes forward with a complaint that they've been blocked

2:08:57in that instance the member of the public who comes forward would be the one who would be required

2:09:02to provide sufficient justification for their complaint and I think a lot of those the evidence

2:09:08would come from that member themselves so we wouldn't then just go you know when we receive

2:09:14complaints we do quite a rigorous review and many of the complaints that come to us never see the

2:09:19light of day they never are even forwarded to the member of council we dismiss them and and so they

2:09:26end there in a situation where somebody comes forward with a complaint they would be expected to

2:09:32actually be able to justify their their complaint with evidence so in that case that they would be

2:09:38the ones coming forward with the you know their description of what happened in that case and

2:09:45so we're hoping that that would not be overly onerous for the member themselves because they

2:09:50wouldn't we wouldn't go to the member to say oh on you know September 4th you blocked user xyz it

2:09:56really wouldn't work that way and so the idea is that again only in the case of a complaint

2:10:03would with the question of blocking come forward and then in that case it would be the complainant

2:10:07that would be providing the evidence thank you so I guess from my perspective this there is no

2:10:17documentation requirement is what you're saying for me to retain records or a log saying you know

2:10:22on this day I blocked and so on I guess I'm struggling with the entire section eight and the

2:10:29conversation and the comments and concerns that I've heard and I'm wondering oh maybe after them

2:10:34the mayor I'm wondering if if we can co-section eight and and have some kind of an education

2:10:41workshop or or something on this because there are questions that have been raised that I hadn't

2:10:47even thought about that I'm oh okay I didn't see it that way but I do have concerns a lot of concerns

2:10:53about section eight thank you and your worship what I would say as well as codes of conduct are meant

2:11:01to be they need to have the buy-in of members of council of course this is your code of conduct

2:11:06and so these are productive discussions that are being had in order to ensure that the rules have

2:11:14buy-in okay thank you um so before me councillor Allt has one more question and then then then you get

2:11:27me and thank you I I hope that you don't think that this is a trivial question but it's very serious

2:11:33I have a Facebook account that goes back almost two decades is everything in that Facebook account

2:11:40subject to this particular policy again I think it would so that this wouldn't then require members

2:11:52of council to go back in time and edit everything that has been posted for the last 20 years and

2:11:58again this is a complaint based system so when issues come to light and complaints are received

2:12:05that's when the integrity commissioner kicks in and would be taking a look and so I think the answer

2:12:13to your question is it depends but I would be very unlikely that there would be a situation that would

2:12:17arise in which a member of the public would be making a complaint over something that happened

2:12:2220 years ago and I'm sorry I don't know how long you've been on council but something that was said

2:12:27before a member was even elected I just can't see how that could possibly be uh subject of a

2:12:34of a complaint that could be um actually opened or investigated okay thank you I guess wouldn't the 60

2:12:49day you get you get me now thanks Laura for sticking with me thanks council too isn't there like a 60

2:12:57day time frame though so if council are all 19 years ago said he didn't like cam I mean he's

2:13:03totally changed his mind now but if he if he said 19 years ago he didn't like cam and then

2:13:11like that's past the 60 day window right yes that's right however and usually the question is when

2:13:21when a matter came to the attention of a member of public um wow yeah when they were discovered

2:13:28because I'm just looking at the code okay when the events were discovered by the complainant so

2:13:33it is it is a you know a valid question but I think the likelihood of something coming to light from

2:13:38that time um that would actually be able to move a complaint forward it's very unlikely okay I hope

2:13:51I'm gonna I hope I'm gonna frame this question correctly to you Laura so if we completely eliminated

2:14:03every single thing that you've recommended for us to adopt if council the will of council would say

2:14:10thanks but no thanks would you still adjudicate a complaint using the code of conduct even though

2:14:18we removed the social media policy yes your actions would as members of council would it was it was I

2:14:28knew I was being facetious a little bit just wanted to make sure that everyone knew that even in the

2:14:34absence of a policy you're still going to adjudicate a code of conduct complaint regardless

2:14:42correct there are provisions in the code of conduct that would apply regardless of the fact that it

2:14:49does not currently specifically address social media have you heard of anything that's coming

2:14:57from the provincial government that may address some of this we had your colleague John here

2:15:04a week ago I think and some of the code of conduct stuff was sort of put on a balance a little bit

2:15:14deferred at this time while we know that a general code is being created across Ontario

2:15:22do you see any would it be valid for us to take a pause on even what's before us today

2:15:30to await the outcome of the provincial legislation on codes and see how that would reflect on the

2:15:37social media policy prior to the election call the province had introduced bill 241 and that was

2:15:50called the municipal accountability act and as part of that there was a suggestion that there

2:15:55would be or a proposal that there would be a standardized municipal code of conduct for all

2:15:59Ontario municipalities but that bill of course died on the order paper once the election was called

2:16:04so it will be interesting to see whether or not the province in the government now that it's been

2:16:10reelected whether it takes on this initiative once again so it's sort of a way to see for the time

2:16:16being to understand what the agenda is going to be for the next the next four years and so

2:16:25might just have to wait a little while to understand whether this is going to be resurrected

2:16:32okay that's fair and so now I'm just going to try to dumb down the questions for me

2:16:39so based on what you're proposing and I haven't done this so I don't think I have

2:16:49you're you're basically saying then I can't go on any of my social media at all

2:16:56and say I really think Bill in the blank would make a great premiere I can't I can't say that

2:17:07the way that this is drafted no and if we were again that would be up to council to decide whether

2:17:13that that is appropriate in this circumstance or whether you would want it to be modified in order

2:17:18to allow that kind of statement to be made okay I appreciate that you keep saying the word this

2:17:24is a draft or as you just said this could be modified by council but then I then I revert back

2:17:31to my initial question to you a couple minutes ago whether it's changed omitted like completely

2:17:37removed you're still gonna you're still going to judge us on what we say so in other words if I if

2:17:45we remove that complete section and then all of us can all 13 of us can say on our social media

2:17:51we think X would be a great person to be the premier of Ontario

2:17:58then because that section's been removed we're okay to say it

2:18:02I would have to take a look at the provisions of the code of conduct to see whether or not

2:18:06a statement like that would actually contravene it if it was written in the code as as I as

2:18:12drafted in in my memorandum then it would be clearly prohibited whereas if there is no provision

2:18:23and you would be relying on the code as it is currently drafted we would look to see whether

2:18:29there are any provisions of the current code that would prohibit that kind of statement from being

2:18:33made and I don't know off the top of my head whether or not that would be currently permitted

2:18:39so in in one case it would be very clear whereas in the other there would be some ambiguity for that

2:18:46okay okay where have you given this same advice what are the councils is this best is this best

2:19:05practices is this new is this kind of advice new for from you just to our council or has this been

2:19:14adopted elsewhere so as I mentioned this is uh take it this this was taken from the city of

2:19:21toronto it was a pioneer in in codes of conduct and there are other municipalities that have adopted

2:19:28policies for social media including use of social media during election campaigns I would say that

2:19:34most municipalities have yet to include these kinds of provisions in their code

2:19:39dealing with some have social media but you know less so use of social media during elections

2:19:46so you would be not unique but you would be among a smaller group of municipalities that

2:19:53have these types of provisions directly in the code of conduct but in the memorandum you'll see on

2:20:00page two I've listed this city of mississauga also has provisions for the use of social media

2:20:07as well as the town of caledon and

2:20:13city of greater Sudbury okay thank you where does my freedom where does our freedom afforded to us

2:20:22under the canadian charter for our freedom of expression come into play here like I just feel

2:20:30like this is such overreach to stifle each of our opinion I can't I can't get over how

2:20:41I I am not allowed to say something that I have an opinion on or I think is an important

2:20:50that like I can't say that I think councillor Busuttil would be a great councillor I can't say

2:20:56that I can't say the X person party would be a good policy I mean this like where where is this

2:21:05do you not do you not feel like this is stifling the freedom of expression under the canadian

2:21:12charter because I certainly do I I would disagree I think that members of council when you have

2:21:25uh decided to take the oath of office and enter into the public realm in this way there are

2:21:34different expectations that are placed upon you by members of the public and so this is meant to

2:21:40ensure that there's no undue influence that elected officials have okay hey we appreciate

2:21:56you I honestly this is this is a good discussion I mean I may not agree with a lot of this stuff but

2:22:02it's good to have it out there in the open and people can lean one way or another

2:22:07Dylan did you want to just jump in on anything that you've heard from a clerk perspective

2:22:13thank you thank you mr. mayor and to all of city council I think it's it's pretty clear from the

2:22:17discussion that you've got significant concerns about the current wording of the of the code

2:22:22I don't think trying to amend or rewrite that code on the fly right now will do us any good

2:22:28my recommendation at this point would be refer it back to city staff

2:22:32we'll take a look at it based on the comments provided today and bring it back as expeditiously

2:22:36as we can but not to council at the end of this month it will take us longer than that

2:22:41yeah okay I know that councillor Allt is willing to move a referral on this item

2:22:47and and and I think it's been a it's been a healthy discussion I mean this is what this is what

2:22:51committee is for right it's to throw stuff out debate and discuss and so that our staff and

2:22:57you Laura our integrity commissioner can can hear the concerns that we have and then look at it

2:23:02through a lens in a in a in a more broader sense to maybe look to see if there's any changes

2:23:07that could come back or not I mean it's it's it's with the advice of staff and our integrity commissioner

2:23:14so I think I'm going to go I already had councillor Allt indicate that he would like to move

2:23:22something now so I'm going to go to the clerks to put that up on the screen

2:23:26I just want to go in order of sort of how stuff is coming and then councillor Goller

2:23:29you're going to be after councillor Allt okay Mr. Mayor to you there's been multiple motions

2:23:37going around I think the intent on on many of them are the same I yeah that's fine we can put one

2:23:44up on the screen now and and if if council alt is in agreement then we can move that

2:23:50so I'll just read it out that the code of conduct for council and local boards include

2:24:12is attachment three to the report 25 20 25 44 be referred to staff for amendments to address

2:24:19concerns raised by city council just before I look for a seconder are you okay with that

2:24:25wording Dylan yes okay who would like to second that galler will second that okay it's on the floor

2:24:33we'll get back to all the other stuff but this is why I just wanted to get rid of this integrity

2:24:38commissioner code of conduct social media stuff first so just just be aware we'll get to that

2:24:43other stuff later I got a question from Gibson on the amendment or on the motion to refer sorry

2:24:50thank you it's a two you mr. Mayor it's a pretty broad amendment or referral sorry which I appreciate

2:24:58thank you councillor Goller I have not been here for the entire discussion I have been here since

2:25:02the motions floor and I'm sorry I have family commitments I do want to express one more concern

2:25:07that I came to dawn on me while listening to my fellow counselors and that is during the election

2:25:12there will be in my view it seems like there are elected counselors counselors who are existing

2:25:17seats running for reelection that would be bound by this code of conduct and then there'll be members

2:25:22of the public who are not elected what are they bound by on their on their social media platforms

2:25:29and that that is something that dawned on me that we're creating this the situation where we may

2:25:34have unelected individuals in our community doing whatever they want on their social media trying

2:25:39to get elected and elected counselors being bound by this artificial code so I appreciate it that's

2:25:48just one of my concerns that dawn on me while listening and I'm happy to support this motion

2:25:53thank you yeah I think councillor Allt might have raised a similar question there before just before

2:25:59I go to the mover of the referral if you don't mind it just to do have one extra question on the

2:26:04matter thank you councillor Allt through through to you Laura so what happens if a member of council

2:26:12announces that they're not going to seek reelection so there's a seven eight month a year maybe runway

2:26:20where a councillor announces I'm not running again

2:26:24and then they're they're so through the entire election a period period you know getting into

2:26:33the fall you know the time of the municipal election that councillor who's announced they're

2:26:38not running again says you know I really think this mayor would be a great mayor to support

2:26:43or this councillor would be a great councillor to replace me in my ward you're saying that that

2:26:50person has no right to say any of that kind of stuff because they'd be deemed under the code of

2:26:54conduct is breaking breaking the rules they would continue to be subject to the code of

2:27:00conduct for as long as they are a member of council okay all right thank you I'm going to go to the

2:27:06mover of the referral and then let's call the vote and wrap this up everybody thank you very much

2:27:10mayor Guthrie I think that I'm probably speaking for many on council when I say first of all thank

2:27:16you to staff Ms Dean and the office of the integrity commissioner for the efforts on this

2:27:21I think it is a belief of many on council if not everyone that there is a higher expectation of

2:27:28counselors that there's a standard of behavior that we as leaders must aspire toward and that

2:27:35that's important I think that what we have to do is balance out that particular standard with some of

2:27:42the nuances that were found in section eight that are not as palatable as we might have seen that

2:27:47we feel actually are an impingement on on the right of expression as well and can create a bit of a

2:27:54conundrum for people as as councillor rark said if you're sponsoring something in your ward and

2:28:00it's therefore deemed to be political by someone is that a violation of the the code of conduct and

2:28:06I think these are the things that we need to address so I want to thank everybody including staff

2:28:10and the integrity commissioners office and all my colleagues for understanding that we have miles

2:28:15to go before we sleep but we're going to get this right thank you very much so I'll call the vote then

2:28:22on the referral is there anyone against the referral okay great I've just been asked from

2:28:32staff at this time before we get kind of move our brains back into the other update of the

2:28:38procedural bylaw and all that kind of stuff just to have a five five minute break okay I think that's

2:28:45let's make it 10 okay I'm gonna make it an executive decision and make it to make it 10

2:28:50so before Laura goes can I just ask confirmation and clarity we don't need the integrity commissioner

2:28:56here anymore no member of council I just want to make sure you can go Laura yeah you can go Laura

2:29:02thank you thank you for the discussion yeah thank you very much have a great rest of the day to you

2:29:08we it is right now what time is it it's 11 55 let's come back here at 12 0 5

2:29:13okay and then we'll finish finish this this section up and can I just ask one question just quickly

2:29:20and maybe you don't have the answer but based on the referral based on what you kind of heard

2:29:23back from us could do you have an idea of when we might be able to get that that back is that is

2:29:29it's a a two month time frame a three month time frame and not looking for you to uh

2:29:36under promise over deliver over a promise under deliver but I just wondered if you have any sense

2:29:40of when it might come back through you mr. marrider members of council all aim for may we'll bring

2:29:46it back as quickly as we can I think that's a reasonable time frame to make sure that we can

2:29:50do the work we need to do okay all right perfect all right well we really appreciate it thank you

2:29:54very much let's see everybody back here at 12 0 5 thank you okay this is your 30 second warning

2:39:31for all my friends online okay I'd like to call the meeting back to order please and we are back to

2:40:23we're going to move our brains back to the procedural bylaw and and and and that portion of

2:40:29what is on the floor clerks you can confirm there was already a mover and a seconder to put all of

2:40:34those on the floor right yeah okay perfect um so uh councillor katyn did you want okay I'm sorry

2:40:42I'm going to you without uh asking but I think you're sort of the only one that maybe wanted to propose

2:40:49some amendments can I go to you now is that okay yes please over to you thank you if uh staff could

2:40:56please put the um motions that I'm moving thank you very much um number one that the city clerk be

2:41:05directed to review and recommend amendments to the public appointment policy in in consultation

2:41:11with the accessibility advisory committee to enable the accessibility advisory committee to

2:41:15provide input regarding appointment recommendations to city council reporting back to the city council

2:41:21no later than q1 2026 and number two that the implementation of the revised accessibility

2:41:29advisory committee terms of reference be paused including all recruitment until amendments to

2:41:34the public appointment policy are considered by city council and thank you oh sorry I had to see

2:41:43if there's a seconder yes councillor Goller thank you and you can continue you have the floor thank

2:41:50you um so I want input on the AAC on applicants and membership for the same reason that we have the

2:41:58AAC because people with a lived experience of disability have distinct and valuable information

2:42:04and I'd like to address some concerns that I've heard which are all valid it's my understanding

2:42:09that voting as a group must be done in public so to avoid internal conflicts I would expect there to be

2:42:15a process where people uh simply get feedback either on composition red flags specific virtues

2:42:23or various applicants and as the ability to provide feedback on applicants was one of the

2:42:29four governance motions recently requested by the AAC I imagine that they would be very interested

2:42:35in working with staff to create a process that allows them to provide information to council

2:42:41to help us make our decisions while respecting that we have a need for privacy of applicants

2:42:46and understanding that council makes our selections based on all available information

2:42:50and we heard this from Cherute this could be as simple as an online poll with questions about

2:42:56candidates or just a field to provide thoughts about each this method would allow members to

2:43:01give opinions to council confidentially so other members do not see each other's responses but I

2:43:06specifically did not want to be prescriptive in my motion because I have full confidence

2:43:12that the AAC and staff can come up with a process that addresses all of their collective concerns

2:43:18and while the AAC did not bring up these changes during the AAC reviews the option wasn't brought

2:43:23up by the scope of the facilitator so it really makes sense that it wasn't thought of at the time

2:43:28however they have since asked and their motion made me realize that we're missing critical

2:43:33information in our decision-making processes the lived experience and awareness of disability issues

2:43:39plus a diversity of opinion would complement staff's recommendations within disability circles

2:43:45there are some differences in views on organizations disability therapies and more and I know some

2:43:52people think they're fine and some people think they're akin to conversion therapy so I personally

2:43:56want to know about these issues when I'm selecting someone for a role to ensure that we're considering

2:44:01accessibility and being responsible to the disability community in wealth in the spirit of

2:44:06nothing about us without us I see this as an obvious point of inclusion for a group that

2:44:12centers a marginalized community the AAC is different than our other groups and they're not

2:44:17centered around human rights and access needs we made a commitment to equity and I believe that

2:44:22the outcome of furthering that goal is worth some time to figure out the process thank you

2:44:28okay thank you is there any questions from the committee before I call the vote on this amendment

2:44:35okay seeing none then I will call the vote all those against please raise your hand

2:44:42a Downer and Guthrie and O'Rourke and Busatil and Richardson and Chu and Billings

2:44:54okay so that fails thank you very much and so now what we'll do is we'll move oh sorry just

2:45:03before I go to the main the main motion to vote on I do want to just honor a request from counselor

2:45:14Klassen and I'm just going to read something that she would like me to state for on her behalf so

2:45:21it says here I want to extend my thanks to staff for developing the parental and pregnancy leave

2:45:29policy for members of city council I fully support this recommendation while I am not quite ready

2:45:35to return to city council meetings after welcoming my baby at the end of January I want to highlight

2:45:42the importance of this policy to the community I am pleased to see that the city of Guelph is

2:45:48committed to supporting its council members as someone who has always aspired to both parenthood

2:45:54and public service I am grateful that a balance can be struck between these two roles it is essential

2:46:01that we have a diverse range of voices around the horseshoe including those that are pregnant

2:46:06individuals and new parents although I may not be present in council chambers today I am staying

2:46:12engaged by following agendas and finding ways to participate in the ongoing governance of our

2:46:18community I look forward to returning to council meetings in the coming months as I transition

2:46:23into my new role as a mother last week I connected with the clerks to ask whether those on parental

2:46:32leave could be listed as such rather than marked as absent in our meeting minutes and I was assured

2:46:40that once this policy is passed my attendance will be recorded accordingly for the duration of my

2:46:47parental leave okay so we just just wanted to make sure that I stated that on behalf of

2:46:54Councillor Clawson and lots of heads nodding in the room so thank you to Councillor Clawson for

2:47:00providing that with that then I think if there's nothing further I'd like to call the vote then

2:47:06on the rest of the governance review and so I'll do that now is there anyone against

2:47:14no one Dylan and staff thank you very much for that and so with that finished we're going to

2:47:23move now just get ready staff just hear me all the way to the end we're going to move

2:47:28next into the infrastructure development and enterprise and environment department or yeah

2:47:35sorry service area and on that we just actually have a consent item first I'm just trying to

2:47:44respect staff that are here under water services that maybe we could look to to move that as consent