Public Space Use Bylaw – Proposed Amendment be referred to the Accessibility Advisory Committee. Councillor Allt called a Point of Order suggesting that a line of…

1:36:29Morgan Dandy give one minute. Oh there she is. Got her. Hi Morgan can you hear me okay? Yes

1:36:35Councillor Busetil. Okay perfect so you have your five minutes and 30 seconds before the end of your

1:36:40time you'll hear the chime and just wrap up for that and then afterwards if you could stay online

1:36:46for any questions from Councillors okay thank you welcome. Thank you very much Chair Busetil.

1:36:53I had actually kind of hoped to hear what Mayor Guthrie had to say about this amendment prior

1:36:58to saying anything because I'm not really sure what the point of this amendment is.

1:37:07The fact that there is an amendment having to come through to me speaks to

1:37:16how quickly this bylaw was put into place and the reason that I put my name up is because the

1:37:26one person that I know would have been advocating today is not able to do so and I'd like you all

1:37:36to remember that Kate Nixon was named for several awards and most recently it was the Guelph Community

1:37:47Builder Award for Leadership and Vision as a young leader. You all know Kate you all know that she

1:37:58speaks truth to power and she continues to do so through those whose lives she greatly affected.

1:38:06I'm one of those lives and the fact that we're here having to revisit the public space use bylaw

1:38:15once again shows to me that this was done too quickly without proper consultation

1:38:23and that the most vulnerable amongst our citizens are being further criminalized.

1:38:35I just have a really hard time criminalizing my neighbors that are unable to afford

1:38:47a place to live and are unable to use our inadequate shelter system.

1:38:55The reason I say inadequate shelter system is because I know that if the person that I rent from

1:39:04were to tell me that I had to leave I would not be able to use a shelter because of my service

1:39:10stop. I've said this before and I know the city can't control the shelters but the combination

1:39:22of the public space use bylaw with the closure of the supervised consumption sites

1:39:29is going to cause more issues within this city. That's all I have to say right now.

1:39:38Thank you Morgan. I'm just going to look around the circle and on the screen to see if there are

1:39:42any questions of a clarifying nature. No questions. Mayor Guthrie thank you very much Morgan thank

1:39:49you again. Did you want to say a couple of words? Thank you Chair Busuttil. No I think

1:39:59I would like to move into closed session for legal advice on the issue with my colleagues

1:40:08and to hear from our legal and I think that might be proper to do that first before

1:40:15coming back out into open session to consider the amendment.

1:40:19Thank you. Councillor Goller says he's going to second that and there is a resolution up there

1:40:24on the screen. If I will read it that's okay. Council of the City of Guelph now hold a meeting

1:40:30that is closed to the public pursuant to section 2392 subsection F of the municipal act regarding

1:40:37advice that is subject to solicitor client privilege including communications necessary

1:40:42for that purpose and so that's Mayor Guthrie and Councillor Goller. Anyone object? Seeing none

1:40:50we're going to go into close. Thank you. Hi Councillor Chew. Hi Kerry is that you? It is yeah.

1:43:52If you don't have long they're going to take. I am not sure how long they will take. You could try

1:43:57joining closed if you like. Oh are they enclosed or? They are enclosed yeah. Okay thank you. Not a

1:44:06problem. Thank you to everyone. Just reporting back from the closed meeting the summary is that

2:13:54information was received by council on item 8.2 and so right now I'm going to look to council

2:14:02chambers to see if there's anyone that would like to speak to this item. I've got Kate. No

2:14:09Madam Chair I haven't tabled the motion yet. Okay all right go ahead. All right thank you so much

2:14:19through you Madam Chair. Just wondering if the clerks could put the motion up on the screen

2:14:27under public space use bylaw proposed amendment that the definition of sensitive public space

2:14:33in section 3.51 of the bylaw 2024-20990 be amended to add after the words includes but is not limited

2:14:41to the words any public space that shares a property line with the school or child care center.

2:14:48And I believe that is seconded by Councillor Goller. I just want to confirm if that still stands.

2:14:58You got a nod there I don't know if you saw it. Okay no I can't thank you so much.

2:15:02I so with that which I could just take a moment to table excuse me my reasoning.

2:15:08So this this has come up to me maybe it's not coming up to some others but it has percolated

2:15:14quite a bit since last fall and there is a lot of concerns that I'm hearing from parents

2:15:22from educators and others that this maybe should have been defined as sensitive areas in parks and

2:15:30schools and daycares right from the get go. And I think that by adding this definition

2:15:37and this example into the definition of the bylaw that it does provide clarity around what council

2:15:43would feel if approved by council that these are sensitive areas that but not only schools and day

2:15:52cares but are also used quite often. I think of I'm hearing of Easter egg hunts coming up where

2:16:02the kids and the volunteers and the teachers are going to be hiding the eggs all over not only

2:16:09their own school property but maybe into the joining public spaces and there's concerns that

2:16:16that these public spaces where it is concerned to be sensitive for our children are could be used

2:16:23in other ways that that that that caused friction and caused sensitivities to to what those public

2:16:31spaces really in my mind should be used for and in others as well. I just want the council and the

2:16:37public to know that I did send this out to all of the school boards not just the the heads of the

2:16:45the boards the chairs but to the administration side as well. Now the timing of some of their

2:16:52meetings on both the French the Catholic and the public maybe did not meet up with today's meeting

2:16:58but I did receive confirmation from the Catholic school board both from their both from their

2:17:06chair of representing the board also from the administrative side of things from the Catholic

2:17:12school board that they passed a motion in full support and full endorsement of this amendment

2:17:20that they too have heard many concerns from parents and teachers alike so I thought I would

2:17:26just address that as well. I also wanted to say that the motion does impact around 27 areas

2:17:37give or take out of the around 119 areas that are across the city. It is a 22%

2:17:47impact if we could put it that way and look with that I don't want to belabor the amendment

2:17:56of this I I think it's straightforward I I don't mean that to be in any way

2:18:03controversial I sincerely don't I am trying to speak to to the issue based on the feedback that I

2:18:11am hearing from parents teachers volunteers and others and I would rather make this clarity come

2:18:20forward from council in a in a in a way that gets that clarity out in the open transparently for

2:18:28everyone to to realize what what we feel is sensitive. I will just say that you know just

2:18:35an hour or so ago we we we took a unanimous stance that we would like to have sensitive areas around

2:18:44our school zones when it comes to speeding and at the same time I think that's that decision speaks

2:18:53somewhat to to this as well and I think the public spaces that abut schools and daycare centers

2:19:01should be defined as sensitive areas and and for the enjoyment of those people that would be using

2:19:08them especially our children. With that I'll just leave it at that and see how the conversation goes.

2:19:13Thank you Madam Chair. Thank you so I've started a speaker's list of Councillor Caitlin, Alt and

2:19:20Kerron. Okay Councillor Caitlin. Thank you through you Madam Chair. I have a concern with the speed

2:19:29at which this is being brought forward and the lack of public engagement and feedback. I think

2:19:37while cars are a known risk people living in tents are not necessarily the same level of risk to

2:19:45people in school areas and I think that it should be brought forward to groups that could be very

2:19:52much affected by this like the AAC because the unhoused population has a very large disability

2:20:00community contained within and I would like to make a motion to refer this to be reviewed by the AAC

2:20:07because I believe there may be unintended consequences to the disabled community that

2:20:12I'd like to know about before making a decision on this and I've sent a motion to the clerks.

2:20:19I apologize I wasn't able to email it out because I am locked out of my email. Thank you and do you

2:20:26have a seconder for that? Councillor Allt. Okay and it's up on the screen. So my motion is oh can

2:20:36we put it back up. Thank you that the public space use by-law proposed amendment be referred to the

2:20:44accessibility advisory committee. Thank you. Speaking to the amendment Mayor Guthrie.

2:20:55Thank you to you Madam Chair, to staff. Is this a requirement that needs to happen from a process

2:21:02point of view and have any staff members heard of this motion prior to now and or was there any

2:21:13feedback from anyone for the last almost two weeks that this motion has been transparently

2:21:21tabled? Has there been any feedback at all? So through the chair answering in reverse order

2:21:33in terms of feedback that we have received I had one single inquiry from the poverty task force who

2:21:39had simply a question about the resolution that the mayor added to the agenda that was the only

2:21:45inquiry that we as staff received from anyone over the last two weeks since the agenda has been

2:21:49posted. We have not obviously there was a single delegation that you heard from this morning but

2:21:56to my awareness we've had no other inquiries or questions come in through staff on this

2:22:02and no my understanding is that it is not a requirement per the AODA to consult with the AAC

2:22:08it would be at council's discretion. Well thank you and to through you Madam Chair to the clerks

2:22:17did any correspondence come in on this matter that's been transparently posted for two weeks?

2:22:25Through you Mr. Mayor or through you Madam Chair to you Mr. Mayor there was no correspondence

2:22:30received for this agenda item. Okay thank you and to the mover did you make other members of

2:22:35council aware of this referral motion prior to you tabling it just now? Yes I had talked to

2:22:47the chair about it and I had talked to clerks about it and I would have emailed it had my email

2:22:54been operational but it was not so I came down in person to make sure that I would be able to

2:23:03talk to folks and let them know so I had a technology issue and that's why I wasn't able

2:23:09to send it out to all of council. So my last question through you Madam Chair is to the mover

2:23:17how many other people on council knew about your motion of referral because I certainly didn't

2:23:23yet I've been transparent for the last two weeks on this motion so I'm just wondering how many

2:23:27other people on council knew about this and not me? I'm sorry is that a question for me? Yes

2:23:38I sent it to the chair this morning and then we had our technology issue

2:23:46and so I wasn't able to send it to other people I only thought about it this morning

2:23:51I'm not sure what the intent of your question is. Well just about transparency Madam Chair that

2:23:59this is feels like a I got you a moment I must admit so I'll leave that as my comment on this

2:24:04I will not point of order reporting the referral. Please

2:24:11we have had referrals that have come up at the spur of the moment quite frequently and we have

2:24:15never had a question like this and I would ask the chair to determine whether this kind of

2:24:21questioning and dialogue is appropriate we are bordering on points of personal privilege.

2:24:27Thank you I think we can end this conversation I think Councillor Alta is right we've had other

2:24:33motions coming from the floor. Yeah I finished then Madam Chair. Yeah please do. Thank you

2:24:40I feel like this is coming out of the blue when an opportunity may have been presented to inform

2:24:46all of council including myself as the mover and I have every right to be frustrated that from what

2:24:52I would feel as an opportunity to give people a heads up including me as the mover was not provided

2:24:58to me when I do know that others were were informed and so with that I do not feel that

2:25:04the referral is necessary I would ask my colleagues to not approve the referral. We are elected

2:25:11officials that are here to make decisions and I think this is a moment for us to make a decision

2:25:17and I've also been told that the matter about the implementation of the bylaw has already once

2:25:24gone through the ACC and I appreciate that we would just make a decision today on this matter.

2:25:32Thank you very much. Thank you Mayor Guthrie I have Councillor Caron, Alt and then Gowler.

2:25:38Thank you and I have a question about the amendment but I do want to say that

2:25:44I was not informed by the mover that a referral was coming and I do find that the line of

2:25:50questioning is quite uncomfortable and again borders on points of personal privilege.

2:25:57My question about the amendment has to do with the inference that by posting it on an agenda

2:26:07that is public I mean it absolutely is public and it's absolutely transparent and I agree with the

2:26:13Mayor that two weeks on an agenda lets those who regularly read council agendas know that it's coming

2:26:24but the mover also indicated that you informed other agencies school boards school trustees

2:26:34that this was coming and I'm just wondering it speaks to the referral in that the pause for the

2:26:41ACC would also allow a pause for other agencies like school boards to have more time to respond

2:26:50but my question is to the mover of the original motion so I hope it's in order

2:26:54when the school boards and daycare centers were informed at what point did you send an email

2:27:01to those agencies and organizations letting them know because they aren't necessarily agencies

2:27:06and organizations that would be looking at council agendas so at what point did you send the email to

2:27:12them? Yes through you Madam Chair to Councillor Caron you would know that because I sent a transparent

2:27:22email to all of council indicating that I was bringing this motion forward about two weeks ago

2:27:29and in that email I stated that I would also be informing the school boards so in the past when

2:27:36we've had anything in regards to school board issues one of the complaints I've heard from

2:27:41members of council is that we have not actually proactively reached out to them so I did that

2:27:48based on the previous times when these types of issues have arisen so all of council is aware

2:27:54that I went to the school boards. Yeah I understand that and appreciate that you the email that we

2:28:00got informing us about your amendment and thank you for the two weeks notice when did the that you

2:28:05would be informing school boards when did the email to the school boards go out was it the same day?

2:28:12I think so I'm sorry I'm in front of me I think it was sorry through you Madam Chair I think it

2:28:21was either the same day or the next I can't recall oh actually I remember now it was it was the day

2:28:28before the agenda went public because I did not from a courtesy point of view I did not want them

2:28:35to find it on the agenda so it was the day before. Okay thank you those are the end of my

2:28:43questions just I don't can we can we speak to the referral because I do see some merit in

2:28:48in having a little bit more transparency in in agencies knowing that this was coming I agree

2:28:55I agree being on a public agenda is is transparent but many of those organizations such as school

2:29:03boards don't have an opportunity to meet to discuss a matter as a board so that they can

2:29:10adequately respond I mean certainly a chair could respond but the chair may not be responding on

2:29:15behalf of their organization because they haven't had an opportunity to meet so so that's where I'm

2:29:23wavering on on my support of the referral is is whether there's benefit to having that additional

2:29:27time thank you Madam Chair thank you I have Councillor Allt and then Gowler

2:29:31thank you very much Chair Boussatiel I will support the referral and there's one very

2:29:38simple reason for that I cannot support the motion as it currently stands because I'm very concerned

2:29:44about charter challenges challenges in the court and it strikes me that if we do not have some sort

2:29:51of input from the AAC as a an advisory committee of council what we are doing is is that we are

2:29:59playing with some fundamental principles in Canadian law including mobility rights and

2:30:05really the questions of of of life there are people whose lives are actually being put in

2:30:13in a in a rather uncomfortable situation as a consequence of this and until such time as I'm

2:30:19quite confident that we are not in the position where we are opening something up that actually

2:30:24can have ramifications far beyond Guelph I can't support this particular resolution so I thank

2:30:29Councillor Caton for bringing this forward even if it was not brought forward in such a fashion

2:30:35that I would have learned about it a week or two ago thank you I have Councillor Goller and then

2:30:41Richardson thank you through you chair there was a question asked about about how many people have

2:30:51written about this I personally receive five emails from constituents and the and the poverty

2:30:58elimination task force with concerns about about this this change to the public use bylaw

2:31:05but going back a little bit when the bylaw was first put into place I received concerns from

2:31:12close to two dozen people about specifically the bylaw permitting incomes to be set up in areas

2:31:20close to schools so I think we've heard from both sides people that are concerned about this

2:31:25happening and and speaking to specifically to to the amendment to the referral I think it would

2:31:34not hurt us to have hear from more people I'm from the accessibility advisory committee on the

2:31:40impacts of this change it is it is a sensitive issue and I think the more voices that we hear

2:31:46from to make a better informed decision I think that would be helpful thank you thank you I have

2:31:52Councillor Richardson and then Gibson and thank you through you chair Boussatel and I'm not sure

2:31:59if my question is for staff but if I understand correctly this is not a change to the bylaw it

2:32:05does not affect the material impact of the bylaw but it's only a clarification so I'm questioning

2:32:12why we would need to go back for more input when we're not really changing anything but just trying

2:32:19to make the bylaw more clear so through the chair to Councillor Richardson so under the bylaw there

2:32:27is the provision for defining what is a sensitive public space and if you think back to at the end

2:32:32of August you as a council voted to designate st. georgia square and market square as sensitive

2:32:37public spaces so you have that ability within the bylaw to make that determination as to how

2:32:45sensitive public space is defined so to your question it is not fundamentally changing the

2:32:50bylaw it is simply adjusting the definition of sensitive public space as you did back in August

2:32:57for those two locations if this were to if the the motion as presented were to pass you would simply

2:33:04be amending the definition of sensitive public space to include those properties those public

2:33:10spaces that share a property line with a school or a child care center so it is not changing the

2:33:15bylaw it is simply adding an additional definition under that sensitive public space thank you

2:33:23thank you just a reminder to council that what we are discussing is the referral motion to the

2:33:28accessibility advisory committee not the not the original motion so I have Councillor Gibson

2:33:35and then Councillor Downer and then Councillor Keaton. Through you chair Busatel I thought to

2:33:42pose a question but I won't I'll just leave it at comments I I believe this amendment has been

2:33:51brought forward in a transparent way it's been public for two weeks lots of people have asked

2:33:56questions lots of people have inquired I know this referral is coming up as a bit of a surprise

2:34:04but the the concerns I've heard around council around charter risks and charter challenges and

2:34:11and the depth of expression my comment would be why have why has the motion come forward with

2:34:22simply focusing on the AOC like the the accessibility advisory committee with the depth of concern

2:34:29that has been has been expressed around council you would think that surely there's more groups that

2:34:36we would want to hear from but it's not it's being singled into one committee that's being

2:34:42that's going to be targeted on consultation be given an opportunity a proactive opportunity to

2:34:49weigh in when there's been two weeks to do so it doesn't seem like there's concern to have this

2:34:57sent out to all of our advisory committee or all the user groups or all the different stakeholders

2:35:01across our city and so I just I struggle with targeting to one committee and I'm and for those

2:35:09reasons I think the immaterial nature of the amendment the clarity that brings I don't I just

2:35:16don't believe it needs to be sent to one committee at this time thank you

2:35:21Councillor Gibson both Councillor Goller and Councillor Kerr on raised other stakeholders

2:35:27you're welcome to make an amendment to the referral motion for broader consultation or

2:35:33engagement if you'd like if that would make you more satisfied with this thank you through you

2:35:39Chair my my comment was just around the the dialogue that I've heard from council that

2:35:48I'm just surprised that the the angst that has been expressed about the lack of input would only

2:35:55be limited to one if it was if it was to the extent that's been expressed that it's only been

2:36:01extended to one committee so I'm what I'm saying is I don't believe that my opinion is that I don't

2:36:08believe that it has to be consulted on to the to any further extent I believe it's been a very

2:36:13transparent process similar to a notice of motion that would come forth from council

2:36:16and so I believe it's time to make a decision thank you I have Councillor Downer and then

2:36:22Councillor Caiten yeah I'm just you know ruminating on this but I don't think it needs a

2:36:31referral it's it's a further clarification of that specific part of a bylaw that has already

2:36:39gone through public consultation and it's 20 I think it's around 22 parks out of 120

2:36:47that are further defined I don't see it any different than the original bylaw and how that was

2:36:54how that was managed it's not a ban it's no you need to move here as we've had before

2:37:03and and that was handled handled quite well I heard at our last joint social service committee

2:37:13that there were 11 encampments 11 people living in encampments right now and I would say that

2:37:21that the bylaw also helped people you know get into shelters and and housing and when you read the

2:37:29reports coming from the county it they're we're moving along it's not it's not perfect and it

2:37:36certainly hasn't been solved but I just I just see this as a further clarification of the existing

2:37:43bylaw and I don't know what other accessibility issues and I know the ACC did not support the

2:37:49original bylaw and I know there are council members that didn't support the original bylaw

2:37:55but I don't see this as fundamentally different than what we passed before thank you I have

2:38:04Councillor Keaton thank you for you chair so while the addition to the bylaw may not be

2:38:11significant the amount of property that affects with the change is significant we have John McCrae

2:38:19school Mitchell Woods Mary Feelen the WCA Fred Hamilton Guelph outdoor school hearts and smile

2:38:26daycare they all border on very large green spaces and so the effect and the cumulative effect

2:38:35on people who are unhoused trying to understand the bylaw find a place be able to move within

2:38:43those spaces because the further you push them out find a voter chair this this sounds like

2:38:51a justification for voting against the amendment not a justification for voting for against the

2:38:55referral this is directly speaking to why I want the AAC to provide feedback on it because there

2:39:04it's a large area that wasn't considered when the AAC originally provided feedback

2:39:11Councillor Gibson I'm just going to rule it in order if thank you and so this is why I want to

2:39:18refer it to them and while we did have two weeks based on our processes the AAC meets every two months

2:39:30they don't have the ability to meet directly on something with two weeks notice and provide feedback

2:39:39or create delegations so I'm asking that they're given the opportunity to provide feedback

2:39:47on this process thank you so I have Councillor Chew and then Mayor Guthrie

2:39:55thank you through you Madam Chair for me like the intent of this amendment like

2:40:07in other circumstances like I would be very happy to allow the AAC to have more consultation but

2:40:16I do want to stress I think the intent of this the original motion is an active good faith and

2:40:25transparency and the fact that it's not changing that the original intent of the bylaw as a whole

2:40:33I think it warrants our exercise of discretion just to be discerning of you know where we are

2:40:42and how we got here and I just want to say to public watching you know we've had many reforms

2:40:49in efforts to reform our governance processes we have more transparency with the Joint Social

2:40:54Social Services Committee and I get fielded questions over email all the time I meet with

2:41:00people regularly all the time constituents who have concerns no matter what they are and it's also

2:41:08our duty as well to continue the dialogue and I think we have to acknowledge that here today

2:41:14not it's not it hasn't been a two-week process it's been an ongoing process that people are

2:41:19seeking clarity from all each of us and I think you know respectfully we all have had a role to play

2:41:26and to facilitate that dialogue and that should be acknowledged as well and I just want to say

2:41:34like I think there is consensus whether you voted for or against the bylaw originally there is

2:41:42consensus that we want to really see this see the process as smoothly as possible so that we don't

2:41:50hurt the most vulnerable that we are trying to protect which is the school children and which

2:41:55is the homeless population thank you thank you I have Mayor Guthrie thank you Madam Chair and through

2:42:06you just a question through to staff then just I kind of appreciated the commentary from Councillor

2:42:16Downer the the entire bylaw did it eventually go to the ACC already is that correct so through

2:42:29the chair uh yes as requested by council we went and met with the AAC on October the 17th

2:42:36at that time council had already approved the bylaw but we were asked to take the bylaw and the

2:42:41implementation of that bylaw to the AAC for a fulsome discussion which we did on October the 17th

2:42:47and we held off on our implementation of the bylaw until after we could have that meeting

2:42:53yes is there any way you can describe through you Madam Chair what their

2:42:59be back was about the bylaw in its entirety I'm just wondering if we're not going to really

2:43:04receive any any different type of any different type of commentary that would come out of of

2:43:11referring it through the chair to Mayor Guthrie I don't I'm hesitant because I don't want to speak

2:43:20on behalf of the AAC we can certainly go back and look at their minutes from that meeting and

2:43:26provide that to council they did provide I think I think the chair also delegated as part of the

2:43:32initial August consideration of the public space use bylaw and then again in October there was

2:43:40feedback provided I know that they did have some feedback about the bylaw as a whole but at that

2:43:46point staff were not there to because the bylaw had already been passed and so we really focused

2:43:51the conversation on the implementation aspects of that bylaw yeah okay that's fair all right then

2:43:57I based on that I will have my other question Madam Chair I'm done thank you so much and I

2:44:03would ask that council not not refer this thank you are there any further comments on the referral

2:44:10motion okay seeing none I'm going to call the question all those opposed to the referral motion

2:44:19if you could so on screen I have Councillor Chew, Councillor Gibson, Mayor Guthrie, Councillor

2:44:26Billings, Councillor Richardson and Councillor Downer so that motion fails thank you we're back

2:44:35to the original motion are there any speakers to the original motion sorry Councillor Gibson

2:44:46yeah thank you through you Chair Bousatel so my my reflection on this amendment and through

2:44:52discussions with the mayor the mover as well as staff the the idea of bringing clarity to the

2:44:59bylaw is a good thing it brings it brings clarity to the community I've had numerous

2:45:06constituent meetings in recent months with just these questions being asked I am a daycare provider

2:45:11what does it mean for me are I what do we mean with properties attached to school school areas or

2:45:18public spaces and I do think the clarity is needed so I appreciate it coming forward the other piece

2:45:26that I wanted I've been dwelling on just since the start of our meeting today is that we spend a lot

2:45:30of time regulating public spaces specifically sensitive areas and we have deemed these areas to

2:45:37be sensitive the central there's a sensitive population that attends school in these locations

2:45:43every day and we have taken it upon ourselves to regulate the areas around public school property

2:45:50case in point this this earlier this morning we we have heavily regulated and used technology to

2:45:55enforce our rules on public roadways in and around school years so I see just as a natural

2:46:03extension of of that protection that we're providing and for our sensitive populations

2:46:11our school zones and so I I really do applaud the idea of bringing clarity I think the community

2:46:17welcomes this clarity on the bylaw and and for that for those reasons all those reasons I'll

2:46:23be supporting it because again it it just adds to the regulation and appropriateness of properties

2:46:33adjacent to those sensitive areas thank you thank you councillor Caton thank you through you chair

2:46:45so I think that what we're doing is we're leaning into a stigma saying that people who

2:46:53are living in tents are inherently dangerous to school children which they're not we have the

2:47:01sensitive public space areas for cars because cars can kill people and we know that any kind of

2:47:11issues that someone who might be living in a tent is doing towards children that could be dangerous

2:47:17is already covered by other crimes and can be dealt with by police and the law I think that what

2:47:25we're doing right now is we're expanding it unnecessarily due to borders on areas that with

2:47:31the list that I've already mentioned of schools and daycares that are on large large green areas

2:47:38that we're going to be further reducing the space that people who are unhoused can be and I think

2:47:46it's confusing I don't think it's necessary and I think that our current public space use bylaw

2:47:53was always able to deal with the issues we were told that when people were complaining earlier

2:48:00so I don't understand why we need it I think that it will have unintended consequences of removing

2:48:06large large areas of green space and I'm very opposed thanks thank you have councillor downer

2:48:14yes can I just ask a question of staff so through you Madam Chair to staff

2:48:23so my understanding is I just want to make sure I got this right there's

2:48:27there's about 22 or 23 parks that this would cover out of 130 20 I can't remember through the chair so

2:48:39because this could move depending on new child care centers coming online or not we're not able to

2:48:45provide a definitive list because it will evolve because as schools and child care centers change

2:48:52at this point based on our analysis of and so this does apply to public spaces but generally

2:48:57that's predominantly parks and so when we look at our parks and we did the analysis we believe

2:49:03there are 27 impacted parks out of 119 which I think to your point is 22 percent of our total

2:49:10number of parks is where the 22 came from but at this point looking at the list that we were able

2:49:15to get from the province of those child care centers in the schools we believe that there are 27

2:49:20locations where a property line is currently shared and so that those would be now defined as

2:49:26sensitive public spaces and how many would have to be removed today I don't need the location but

2:49:31if this bylaw was put into so at this point in time there is one encampment that we are monitoring

2:49:39that would be in violation or would be in a sensitive public space where this motion to pass

2:49:45although we actually are we believe that encampment may have been recently abandoned

2:49:51but based on what we've been tracking over the last two weeks since this motion came forward

2:49:55there is only one current encampment we are aware of in the city and we do track all encampment

2:50:00locations that would then need to shift the location if this motion okay and so they're not banned

2:50:06from having an encampment they're just not allowed to have one in that area so they would have to

2:50:11move so through the chair this one again if it if it in fact if it has been abandoned then it becomes

2:50:17a moot point but if it has not then there is one individual in one encampment who would need to

2:50:23move the location of their encampment okay and what have you received complaints from places

2:50:29from schools or or daycare centers or in the last year or so through the chair uh no uh we have not

2:50:39and I suspect that's partly because we have not seen a practical situation where we have had

2:50:45an encampment in close proximity to a school um however certainly when we uh when the original

2:50:50public space use bylaw came forward and there was a lot of feedback there was certainly a lot of

2:50:55questions about proximity to schools back sort of in I think that's September timeframe and we did

2:51:00provide a lot of clarifying information out because we did get a number of inquiries from people who

2:51:07asked about proximity to schools but since the time of the bylaw being implemented we have not but

2:51:13again I suspect that's because we don't actually have other than this potentially one we we have

2:51:20not had a significant number of encampments that are in any proximity to schools or child care

2:51:25centers okay if so okay that's all the questions I have um I'm gonna support this originally I

2:51:33was a little cool to it but I do see is it a further refinement of the definition of sensitive

2:51:39spaces um I think again it it goes back to I'm not too concerned about charter challenges and

2:51:50it takes us back to our original bylaw that this isn't a ban that we didn't have a challenge to it

2:51:59again it's it's it's a public use bylaw there are certain areas that you can do things in which

2:52:05we regulate throughout the whole city so I'm not um I am going to support this as a further

2:52:13refinement of the bylaw um and because I don't think it fundamentally changed what we already

2:52:19approved and it's not an out ban it's a telling telling people this is where you can be and this

2:52:25is where we you can't be thank you I have counsel alt thank you very much as I said earlier I will

2:52:35not be supporting this particular motion I'm very very skeptical about its potential to actually have

2:52:41any positive impact at all although I do think that there is a potential for some negative

2:52:46repercussions to occur including a legal challenge I'd made reference to the possibility of legal

2:52:51challenges but the other thing that I really want to address is whether this bylaw will

2:52:56actually enhance child safety and I'm not certain it does I don't have any statistics on children

2:53:03that have actually become vulnerable as a consequence of people living in encampments

2:53:09unless those children are living in those encampments themselves and I think that what we are doing is

2:53:15we're addressing something that everybody including those who live in encampments don't like and that's

2:53:22homelessness the only problem is we're not solving homelessness by doing this we're just moving it along

2:53:30and that's one of my big concerns if you talk to workers on the street right now they will point

2:53:35out that one of the great challenges this winter was actually getting to the encampments that were

2:53:40out there because some people don't want to go into shelters for various reasons we'd heard from one

2:53:47delegate today that that if she were made homeless she could not go into a shelter because of her

2:53:53companion animal there are other reasons as well I'm not about to get into all of those but when

2:53:59we get to the very basic issue of public safety I think that there's a fundamental difference

2:54:05between the highway traffic act and actually encouraging those who need to live in encampments

2:54:12to move on I think we're we're not addressing the real issue and that's homelessness thank you is

2:54:20sir anything further from counselors seeing nothing with counsel's indulgence I will share that I

2:54:27will not be voting in support of this I am concerned that it is overly broad and one of my colleagues

2:54:35talked about the large swaths of land that are attached to schools such that an encampment could

2:54:43be a kilometer away or greater from a school because of the park land and my concern and and I've

2:54:50gone out and I've talked to the encampments the residents of the encampments my concern about

2:54:55pushing people further further out from the services and the supports that are tend to be

2:55:01downtown and within transit accessibility so and I also agree I think you know I've raised it and

2:55:10thank you to Mayor Guthrie for reaching out to the school boards I've raised concerns whether it's

2:55:14a fireworks bylaw and so on about the need to really consult with the other stakeholders in

2:55:21the community so I'm concerned about this the other thing is that I heard quite clearly from staff

2:55:27is that they haven't heard about problems related to schools on this issue so I concur with

2:55:35Councillor Caton that you know I don't want to fuel the an encampment equals um unsafety and

2:55:42and unsavory people who are going to harm your children I don't want to fuel into that so I will

2:55:48not be supporting this and I think we're ready to call the question so Councillors who are not in

2:55:58support of the recommendation please raise their hand and so I have Caron, Ault, Busatil, Gawler

2:56:12and um Caten and so that falls fails okay so the motion is carried pardon me Madam Chair I just

2:56:22want to make sure we have the vote I have that carrying on a six five vote so maybe if we could

2:56:27confirm we have 11 members present one two three four five five five against so it fails it passes

2:56:37it passes six five with five against that's correct thank you for thank you thank you okay the

2:56:43last item and Mayor Guthrie I'll turn to you this should be a quick item item 8.3

2:56:50well thank you hopefully this doesn't get referred thank you for the last discussion

2:56:55by the way everyone I know it's a sensitive thing so thank you for you Madam Chair for that