Committee of the Whole

4:08How can you post it?

4:10Good afternoon.

4:12I'd like to call order the September 17, 2024

4:15Committee of the Whole meeting.

4:17Please stand if you're able for the playing of O Canada.

5:51Please take a moment of silent reflection.

6:12And now I'll read the Indigenous territorial acknowledgement.

6:15As we gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege

6:18to live and work in Guelph, a city built

6:21over rich Indigenous histories.

6:22We are guests here, and we should

6:24reflect upon the responsibility to care for this land,

6:27the people who live here today, and the generations to come.

6:30If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation,

6:33we should take pause and make those decisions

6:35and intentions with gratitude.

6:38The place we call Guelph has served as territorial lands

6:41and a place of refuge for many peoples over time,

6:44but more specifically, the Atawanderung and the Haudenosaunee.

6:51This land is held as a treaty lands and territory

6:53with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nations.

6:56Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman Tract

6:58and is part of the long-established traditional hunting

7:00ground for the six nations of the Grand River.

7:03Many First Nations, Inuit, and Métis people

7:07who have come across the Turtle Island call Guelph home today.

7:11Do any members of council have a disclosure of pecuniary interest

7:14to declare before today's meeting?

7:17Seeing none.

7:20There's one item for discussion on the audit committee today,

7:22and I'll pass that over to the city's internal auditor,

7:25Robert Jelacic, to present the transit electrification audit.

7:35Thank you, Councillor Richardson.

7:38Good afternoon.

7:39I want to give you a brief overview

7:41of the results of this audit.

7:43The city is committed to reducing community carbon emissions

7:4663% by 2030.

7:49Guelph's transit fleet electrification

7:50is part of the 100RE strategy to use 100% renewable energy

7:55by 2050.

7:57The plan aligns with global climate goals

7:59and offers operational benefits like potential lower

8:01maintenance costs and reduced pollution levels achieved

8:05through the use of electric vehicles.

8:08The objectives of the review are to assess the extent of due regard

8:12for economy, efficiency, and effectiveness

8:14as it relates to electrification of the bus fleet

8:18and identify improvement opportunities.

8:21The audit reviewed the technology and performance

8:24of the vehicles and determined if the infrastructure has

8:27been adequately assessed, including understanding

8:29the performance of the buses compared to the vendor-agreed

8:32contractual performance standards.

8:39Assessed industry capabilities of bus electrification goals,

8:42including the capability of suppliers

8:44to deliver buses over the short term.

8:48Reviewed if city facilities will be ready in time

8:50for arrival of the buses with adequate capacity of charging

8:54infrastructure to support the electrified fleet,

8:57the availability and reliability of supply chains

8:59for charging infrastructure components

9:01were also considered factoring in any potential disruptions

9:04or delays.

9:06Evaluated financial considerations

9:07to fund the program on a long-term, sustainable basis.

9:12Reviewed if the logistics and operations of the program

9:15were evaluated and employed appropriately

9:16to meet the needs of the fleet and service requirements

9:20without interruption to current transit service delivery.

9:24Determinative program governance is well-defined

9:26so that the key deliverables can be achieved

9:28with acceptable levels of quality following best practices.

9:32Some key positive findings to highlight from the review

9:34include the Guelph Transit and Fleet Services infrastructure

9:37project has delivered optimal benefits relative to its costs

9:41to date.

9:42Budgetary controls, procurement processes,

9:45and performance metrics were scrutinized

9:47and no areas of potential overspending, inefficiencies,

9:50or underperformance were identified.

9:53The comprehensive analysis provided actionable insights

9:55to enhance future project management practices relating

9:59to this project, ensuring maximum return on investment

10:02and sustainable value creation for stakeholders,

10:05as well as ensuring cost control and avoidance

10:07of future cost escalation.

10:10By investing in the electrification of transit

10:12fleet and infrastructure, the city

10:14has maximized the economic benefit of ICIP, Infrastructure

10:18Canada Investment Program funding

10:20by strategically aligning the community investments

10:23with long-term community and economic goals.

10:26The city has prioritized the Transit Electrification Project

10:30that also enhances infrastructure resilience,

10:32improves transportation efficiency,

10:35and supports sustainable development,

10:37ultimately driving broader economic growth

10:39and community well-being.

10:41The new Guelph Transit and Fleet Services facility

10:44at the Watson-Stone site will employ sustainable design

10:49elements and strive to meet the Canadian Green Building

10:52Council, CAGBC, Zero Carbon Building Design Standard.

10:57The operations facility's long-term plan directly

10:59aligns with the strategic plan, enabling progress

11:02on strategic initiatives related to sustainability,

11:05community needs, transportation system efficiency,

11:08and overall improvement of city operations.

11:11The work performed relating to Guelph Transit and Fleet

11:14Services infrastructure has satisfied the value for money

11:16criteria of effectiveness and efficiency.

11:19Elements through its allocation of resources,

11:22timely completion of milestones, and outcomes

11:24achieved today.

11:26By adhering to a well-structured approach,

11:28the program achieved results that align

11:30with the expected deliverables.

11:33Best possible bus prices have been achieved

11:35through robust negotiation and program procurement processes

11:39and has ensured that both immediate financial benefits

11:42and long-term strategic goals are met,

11:45leading to cost efficiency.

11:47Potential value for money optimizations

11:49paths have been identified in relation

11:52to the purchase and use of electric buses

11:54and should be considered by management and council.

11:57These include use of smaller lower cost per unit electric

12:00buses for deployment by transit on lower ride or demand routes,

12:05extending the lifecycle of existing diesel buses

12:07before replacing these with an electric bus

12:10to slow the pace of electrification

12:12during current, unsettled electric bus market conditions.

12:17From an efficiency perspective, begin

12:19using telematics to manage the electric fleet.

12:21Telematics plays a crucial role in the efficient, safe,

12:24and cost-effective operation of transit fleets

12:27and in contributing to effectiveness goals.

12:30Its absence can lead to operational inefficiencies,

12:32higher costs, and reduced service quality.

12:35Data-driven decision-making is crucial for optimizing

12:38operations and improving service quality,

12:42as it will allow Gulf Transit to base their decisions

12:46and actions on factual insights rather than on assumptions

12:49and guesswork.

12:51The addition of an electrification specialist

12:53as a subject matter expert has been identified

12:55as a key recommendation.

12:57There are immediate risks associated

12:59with not having such a role in place

13:01within the organization.

13:02Risks include lack of coordination between departments,

13:06dealing with challenges to overcome

13:08with this new quickly changing technology,

13:11inadequate planning, potential compliance issues,

13:14including not maximizing government funding opportunities,

13:17poor stakeholder engagement, and insufficient staff training.

13:21The Gulf Transit and Operations Fleet Services Facility

13:24Steering Committee should decide upon the scope

13:26and responsibilities of the role and to decide

13:29whether these requirements would be fulfilled

13:31by one or multiple roles which are existing within the

13:35organization's current budget allotment.

13:38Thank you.

13:42Thanks very much, Robert.

13:43Any questions for staff?

13:48Seeing none, thank you.

13:49I just want to...

13:50Oh, sorry, did I miss...

13:51Everybody out there is good.

13:52You have a question, Councillor Allen?

13:55No, I was just going to move the motion.

13:58Okay, well, I was just going to thank Mr. Jelacic

14:01and let him know that, you know,

14:03do value, see the value in these audits?

14:05And especially as you said, so that we're not relying on...

14:08We're not making our decisions on assumptions

14:10and that we're making informed sound decisions

14:12based on good data.

14:13So thank you for that.

14:15So yes.

14:17Question, Councillor Oroch?

14:19Thank you, Chair Richardson,

14:20through you to Mr. Jelacic.

14:22This was our first year with value for money audits

14:24and I'm just wondering if you found those to be useful

14:28and a good new contribution

14:30to the city's fiscal responsibility.

14:33Yep, through you, Chair Richardson, to Councillor Oroch.

14:36Yeah, absolutely.

14:37I mean, this is the first time running through these audits

14:39as an on-team and, you know,

14:41there were certainly challenges in them.

14:42They are focusing a bit differently

14:45than our traditional risk-based audits,

14:47but still build on that framework

14:49and that sort of baseline that we normally have.

14:52I feel that, and again, the value is really measured

14:55in the value to the organization.

14:57So hopefully management as well as council

14:59will receive these reports and get some important feedback

15:04and also help to drive some of the decisions

15:07that you're gonna have to make,

15:08especially around the budget time.

15:10Appreciate that. Thank you.

15:12You're very welcome.

15:15Any further questions?

15:17And I have a move and during a seconder

15:19to receive the report.

15:20Councillor Allt and Councillor Caton, thank you.

15:26I'm calling the vote on this motion.

15:28All those against?

15:32Seeing none, the motion is carried.

15:35And I'll now pass the over to Councillor Kerron

15:37for the corporate services portion of the meeting.

15:41Very thank you, Councillor Richardson.

15:43We have one item today on the corporate services agenda

15:47and that is our 2024 second quarter

15:49budget monitoring report.

15:51There's a recommendation in the agenda

15:55and I'll open it up if we could have a mover and a seconder

16:00and then we'll have an opportunity for questions.

16:02There's no presentation today.

16:05I see Councillor Klosson and Councillor Allt

16:09moved and seconded.

16:10Any questions?

16:11I am remote, so I will count on the whoever's

16:16in the clerk's chair to let me know

16:18if there are any questions in the horseshoe.

16:24I see Councillor Klosson has a question on the screen.

16:31You through Madam Chair, two staff.

16:34I just had a quick question with regard to the report,

16:39capital budget adjustments, it's the report with the chart.

16:43And I've noticed that on the second page,

16:45we've got the removal of the downtown pedestrian bridge,

16:49stating that the project was canceled

16:51and the remaining budget was returned to the reserves.

16:54I was just wondering if you could speak to that project

16:56and where we might see it come up again in the future.

17:00Thank you.

17:01Through the chair to Councillor Klosson.

17:02So yes, that project was canceled,

17:06just because it wasn't constructible as we thought

17:10due to unknown site conditions,

17:11but we are expecting that that money,

17:15we still have to reconcile some of the work that has been done.

17:20So we're expecting that that's going,

17:22that money will be returned to the reserve

17:24and we are expecting that through the EA

17:26for the Mac-Tanel bridge that that will be looked at again

17:29to see what the feasibility of that is including

17:31as part of that bigger project.

17:35Okay, I appreciate that.

17:36I'm looking forward to seeing it come together

17:39as part of the EA for the Mac-Tanel project.

17:42Thanks.

17:44Thanks, Councillor Klosson.

17:45Are there any further questions on this item?

17:49I don't see any on screen.

17:50Are there any in the horseshoe clerks?

17:54Through you, Chair Caron,

17:55there is one question from Councillor O'Rourke.

17:57Thank you, Councillor O'Rourke.

17:59Thank you, Chair Caron, through you.

18:01Oh, there are double chairing.

18:02Okay, sorry, Chair Caron.

18:04Through you to staff.

18:07I noticed the line in terms of the paramedic overruns.

18:10So did the city or the county receive any funds

18:13from the province to assist with the paramedic services

18:17going to homeless services for those who are unhoused?

18:21And do we have an estimate of additional costs

18:23of that service be extended?

18:40Through the chair to Councillor O'Rourke,

18:42I believe the question that you were asking about

18:47was if there was any funding for paramedics

18:51for the unhoused or the homeless?

18:55No, there is not.

18:56There was nothing specific for that.

18:57We did have some funding for the community paramedic program,

19:01but not that specifically as you asked.

19:04Okay, so through you, Chair Caron, to Mr. Godfrey.

19:08So we expect that the city will continue

19:10to provide those services likely for the unhoused, right?

19:13And do we expect that there will be

19:16any provincial funding for those services?

19:19Through the chair to Councillor O'Rourke,

19:21with respect to the funding opportunities,

19:23I'm unaware of that at the present time,

19:26but obviously paramedics will continue

19:27to provide the services to all the citizens of Guelph

19:31to the best of their ability.

19:33Oh, I know they'll do their best, thanks.

19:36And I have one other question through you, Chair Caron.

19:42In terms of capital,

19:44so we know we received $13.5 million

19:46from the federal government for the library

19:49in terms of green and efficiency measures.

19:53So can you confirm for us that actually wipes out

19:57what we had been referring to as a library levy?

20:04So through the chair to Councillor O'Rourke,

20:09essentially what that amount did,

20:13we had to share it proportionately

20:15between all of the funding sources on that project.

20:19And so related to the tax levy component,

20:23it definitely did reduce that extra levy

20:30that we were charging.

20:32At this point today, I can't speak exactly

20:34if it was fully the full amount,

20:37but it essentially it reduced the amount of debt

20:41that we'll have to issue overall for that project.

20:43And so it absolutely had the impact

20:45of reducing the amount of taxes overall

20:47that are going to that project.

20:49Great, thanks.

20:52Thank you, Councillor O'Rourke.

20:54I don't see any further questions.

20:56So we'll call the vote on this item.

20:58Is there anyone opposed?

21:03I don't see any on screen.

21:04I'm assuming there are none in the horseshoe.

21:07DCAO Lee, do we have any announcements

21:12for corporate services?

21:14To you, Chair and all of Council,

21:15no announcements at this point.

21:16Thank you.

21:17Okay, thanks.

21:18I'll pass it over to the next chair,

21:20which is Governance and the Office of the CAO.

21:23Mayor Guthrie will be chairing this item.

21:28Thank you, Chair Caron.

21:30It's Councillor O'Donnell.

21:31It was a deal.

21:32I'm filling in for the mayor

21:34who could not join us in person today.

21:38And so there is one item,

21:40which is item 9.1,

21:42municipal scan of run eviction by-law.

21:44This item was extracted

21:45from the July 26 information item.

21:48And before we go to the delegations,

21:50I'm going to actually turn to Mayor Guthrie

21:52who would like to speak to this item.

21:57Thank you so much, Chair.

21:58Thank you, everybody.

22:00Sorry I can't be there in person today.

22:03I just wanted to thank everybody

22:05that I believe has maybe showed up in the chambers

22:08or maybe watching right now

22:11or calling in to delegate in regards to this topic.

22:15I did want to just let everyone know transparently

22:18ever since this item got added

22:21to the agenda item for today,

22:24myself and council has been made aware

22:27that there's actually a basket

22:29or a suite of lots of options

22:31in regards to housing issues coming to council

22:36on October the 8th.

22:38And I'm actually really excited

22:41that that is going to have a suite of choices

22:45and other options for us to look at.

22:48So today we felt it was important

22:50to still have this run evictions discussion today,

22:54especially because it's on the agenda,

22:56members of the community have rallied together

22:59to speak to it, members of council are interested in this.

23:03And so I just wanted to give a heads up

23:06as to say number one, thank you everyone.

23:09And then number two is at the end of the day,

23:12up to council's will, but if the will of council

23:15is to perhaps defer any action on this

23:19just to October the 8th,

23:21when we can also have further discussion

23:24on other housing options, that may be the outcome of today.

23:27And that doesn't mean in any sense at all

23:31that your council members are not interested in this issue,

23:35but in the context of that basket of options

23:38that's coming on October the 8th,

23:40this may very well land a little bit better there.

23:44With that, I just wanna thank you, Chair,

23:48for allowing me to set the stage a little bit here

23:50for the discussion.

23:51And I'm looking forward to hearing from the delegates.

23:56I want to just say that this is an issue

23:59that's an issue across Ontario,

24:01it's across the country actually.

24:04And it's a growing issue.

24:06And it's something that I think deserves a discussion

24:09here at the council chambers.

24:11I also wanna in advance just thank both councillor,

24:15Kate and councillor Richardson,

24:18who have also reached out to have a lot of effort

24:21into this issue as well and to advocate

24:24for the discussion that we're about to have today.

24:26So with that, I'll be quiet and thank you, Chair Busuttil.

24:30I'll turn it over to you.

24:32Thank you so much.

24:33Thank you.

24:34So just to be clear, this decision

24:36or this fuller conversation will happen on October 8th.

24:40We are still proceeding with the delegations.

24:42And just for the delegations here, you have five minutes.

24:46At four minutes and 30 seconds,

24:48you'll hear a chime just to start wrapping up.

24:51At the end of your delegation, stay at the podium.

24:54It gives councillors an opportunity to ask for questions

24:57of a clarifying nature to your presentation.

25:01I'm going to start with Daniel Kaufman and Morgan Dandy.

25:05I see you there.

25:07You're up next.

25:08So Daniel, if you'd like to come up.

25:19It's on, cool.

25:21All right, thank you for having me today.

25:23Thank you, Cam, for helping bring this issue up

25:25and speaking with me a few weeks ago.

25:27And thank you to the council for listening.

25:30So yeah, I'm here to speak on my personal experiences

25:33with the renovations that are going on in Guelph.

25:35So as some of you may know,

25:37currently there is a situation at Brent Avenue

25:40as well as other places on Brent.

25:42I'm sure around Guelph as well,

25:44with landlords who are coming in

25:46and basically asking tenants to leave for renovations,

25:50disrupting and misinforming.

25:51So first I just like to give an account

25:53of my personal experience with this whole situation.

25:56So personally, I've lived in Guelph for 12 years

25:58and in my building for 10.

26:01Just this past year in January,

26:02we got a notice that the building

26:05had been transferred over to new ownership.

26:08A few months go by, we're hoping it's not gonna be anything big.

26:11Some tenants are sounding some alarms though about it.

26:15First thing we have is we have a stove breakdown.

26:17It's in our lease, we think, okay,

26:19just have to talk to the landlord

26:20and get that fixed because that's in our lease.

26:25No response, we've never received any response from them.

26:27So they're ignoring maintenance to begin with.

26:29Then June comes by and we start getting notices

26:32all of a sudden with very short notice

26:34about for example, we had storage lockers

26:36that we were told there was a fire hazard

26:39and they had to be removed with all our stuff within two weeks

26:42and any belongings within would be thrown out.

26:44We have checked with the fire department.

26:46There was no fire inspection given for that.

26:49Additionally, they started telling us

26:51about municipal legislation deeming

26:54that they would be charging us for AC units in our building

26:57despite that prior never being the case

27:00with anything and not being in our lease.

27:02And then finally, come July, one month after those,

27:07we get an eviction notice from N13 telling us

27:09that we are going to have our leases terminated,

27:13they have no choice, we need you up October 30th,

27:17which scared a lot of people.

27:18Within the day, I was around talking to tenants,

27:20a lot of them not knowing any of their rights,

27:23a lot of them scared, a lot of them thinking,

27:25we're already being harassed with this stuff,

27:28I don't trust my rights here or anything like that,

27:30I'm just going to leave.

27:33And that's been the main issue that we've had

27:35is that it's been a lot of fear mongering of tenants,

27:37a lot of tenants that are afraid.

27:42Yeah, sorry.

27:48So the main issues that I've had is the lack of transparency,

27:51being able to blatantly tell tenants stuff

27:53that's not true, misinforming them.

27:55A lot of our people in our building are seniors.

27:58Just recently the other day, for this specific landlord,

28:02there was a meeting with Acorn,

28:03which is the tenant advocacy organization,

28:05and a lot of people showed up, most of those seniors,

28:07that's kind of who's being targeted right now.

28:09Lawnarable people, people who, some of them,

28:12when we talked about this council meeting,

28:13weren't sure if they were going to be able to make it in

28:15because they're afraid of like,

28:16I don't know how to work a computer and stuff like that.

28:18That's a lot of who's being targeted here.

28:20They're primarily targeting people

28:22in low income households and stuff.

28:26Me personally, I work at a grocery store.

28:29My father, who's there, is retired.

28:31We can't really afford to move somewhere else

28:33and stay together, and he's getting old.

28:34He might need me to take care of him.

28:36I can't do that if we're not able to stay

28:37in the same place anymore, as well as a lot of other tenants.

28:40The ones who were scared,

28:41and have already taken cash for keys and left,

28:44it's unfortunate for them,

28:45they're probably going to be paying double the rent

28:47that they are now.

28:49My concern is mostly just with the general lack of information

28:53and harassment, more or less, from this landlord,

28:55that we're expecting to see in the future too,

28:57because of their track record.

28:58There's little accountability for it.

28:59There's little protections,

29:01and as well, just as I said before,

29:04misinforming tenants, we have been told repeatedly

29:07that we're not coming back.

29:10Property managers have told tenants

29:12that after these renovations,

29:13despite the right of first refusal, no.

29:18We need, I believe, with these bylaws,

29:20much more transparency given to tenants.

29:22I know that law, this is going to be mirroring

29:24what was done in Hamilton, hopefully.

29:26I believe there's just small additional things

29:28that need to be also given with that.

29:31For example, we can't have it where landlords

29:34are misinforming tenants,

29:35especially vulnerable old tenants

29:36who don't know their rights.

29:38If you're giving an N13, you should not be saying

29:40we have no choice to terminate your lease.

29:41No, you should be giving, that should be vetted.

29:43First of all, any messaging you want to give

29:45about the N13 should be vetted beforehand.

29:47And just, yeah, proper information given to tenants

29:50so they're not afraid, so people don't think,

29:52I have no choice here, it's big guy versus little guy.

29:56Anyhow, that's most of what I wanted to say today.

29:59I just would like to see more accountability,

30:00more transparency enforced with these landlords.

30:04And that's pretty much all, thank you.

30:06Thank you, Daniel.

30:07I'm just gonna check and see if there are questions.

30:09I see the mayor and Councillor O'Rourke.

30:14Thank you, and through you, Chair,

30:16thank you very much for delegating.

30:18One of the things that, and I know I've talked to you

30:21about this and with others, is sort of a lot of the

30:26frustration that actually municipalities have

30:28in regards to this situation, not just wealth,

30:31but the fact that a lot of it rests at the province.

30:34Specifically, one of the, or a couple of the motions

30:38that are before us today, one of them is about

30:42the sort of transparency issue of rights.

30:46And other cities have posted like a landing page

30:51on websites at the municipal level to have that information

30:56be easily accessible, easily understood,

30:59so that people could understand a little bit

31:01about the rights of tenants,

31:03even though a lot of it rests at the province.

31:05Do you think that that would be a worthwhile thing

31:09for not just you, but for others that you've spoken to,

31:12that at the municipal level in wealth,

31:15we have some sort of a landing page and documentation

31:18so that we can inform people of what their rights are?

31:22Yeah, I saw that in the agenda as well,

31:23is that it was something that was suggested.

31:25I've seen the Hamilton one for that,

31:27I thought that was good.

31:28My concern again is like I said before,

31:30there's older tenants who don't know how to use technology,

31:32who don't go to look at this site to begin with.

31:35That's why I'm saying that I don't know how,

31:38I don't know how much we can get into it

31:39on the municipal level, but again,

31:42we're talking about doing permits and stuff

31:44for renovations and stuff like that.

31:47Just requiring that like, hey, if you give an N13,

31:50you have to, at that point,

31:51you have to basically give the information as well

31:55about their rights and stuff like that,

31:57or direct them towards the landing page on wealth,

31:59at the very least is what I would like to see.

32:04Great, thank you very much.

32:05Thank you, Madam Chair.

32:07Thank you, I have Councillor O'Rourke

32:09and Councillor Karen, I believe, yes.

32:13Thank you, Chair Busetil.

32:14Thank you so much for delegating.

32:16Appreciate it, and for helping the folks in your building.

32:20You said that the landlord has said,

32:24you're just not coming back,

32:25you're allowed to come back, but you're not coming back.

32:27Can you help me understand that?

32:28That is what the speakers here say,

32:29but I have had other tenants tell me that.

32:31The property manager came by a few months ago

32:34to have one-on-one meetings with tenants

32:36discussing cash for keys.

32:38And for what I've heard,

32:39he was not very cordial with some of the tenants.

32:42In fact, on the way out,

32:43somebody took his picture and he threatened the zoo,

32:45not a very level-headed thing to do.

32:49But yeah.

32:50Okay, and through you, Chair Busetil,

32:53just another question,

32:54and I'm really sorry that this is happening in your building.

32:59I think it's unconscionable.

33:02You said there were a few things you would like to see added

33:04to the recommendations or to the constraints

33:08around renovations.

33:09What would those be?

33:10Because I know you ran out of time.

33:11Well, it was mostly just about the transparency.

33:13It was about making sure that tenants are fully informed.

33:17Just additionally,

33:18I know a lot of this mirrors what Hamilton does.

33:20I'd like to see just that as a minimum

33:22of the strengths that we have for the front of the picture.

33:24I've also had something talked about,

33:26suggested to me through peers

33:28about possibly having ever landlord registry

33:31where tenants are able to see who their landlord is.

33:33Because it took some deep diving

33:35to actually find our landlord.

33:37It took accountants friends going through documentation,

33:41and it's tough to try and find where this guy traces back to.

33:46I don't find that acceptable,

33:47because also that just means generally that we can't,

33:51I don't think many of us are very litigious,

33:53but even if we wanted to,

33:54we have a hard time serving him in court

33:55because we don't have an address or anything

33:56or the building is anything.

33:59Just a lack of transparency again.

34:01Yeah, okay.

34:02And a last question, Chair Busetil.

34:05You said that some of the seniors in your building

34:08don't know how to delegate

34:10or would be concerned about coming.

34:14Would it be helpful if our clerk's office

34:16reached out to you to tell them how they can do that?

34:17They could write a letter physically and send it in.

34:20We know this is coming back as an agenda item in October.

34:25But would you please convey to them

34:26that we'd like to hear from them as well?

34:28Oh yes, we've been very fortunate actually,

34:29because there's been several of us organizing.

34:31I'm not the only one that,

34:32I'm the one I guess that's came here to speak.

34:34I'm not sure if there's anybody else

34:35from our building that's coming,

34:36but we've been very fortunate with organization

34:38and spreading of information.

34:40Some of it not immediately,

34:42which is why some people took the cartridge keys deal

34:44and like didn't take the time to go through it unfortunately.

34:47Bye.

34:48Okay, thank you.

34:49Thank you, thank you for your time.

34:51Thank you, Councillor Kerr-On.

34:53Yes, thank you.

34:54Again, voicing my colleagues dismay

34:59that this is happening to you

35:00and everything that you've described to me,

35:02my understanding is covered

35:04under the Residential Tendencies Act,

35:06but that when you applied to the landlord tenant board

35:11for a hearing,

35:12that one of the key issues and challenges

35:15is getting a hearing date.

35:16So I'm wondering whether or not you've challenged

35:19what is obviously violations of the RTA

35:23and whether you were able to get a hearing

35:26and what was the timeliness of that hearing?

35:29So as of now, there is no hearing set,

35:31not that we've informed of.

35:33We have been speaking with legal representation,

35:35such as paralegals and stuff,

35:37which would help to organize stuff.

35:41But as from what I've heard again,

35:43not expecting a hearing anytime soon,

35:45which is fortunate because we do have time to organize,

35:47time to research, time to talk.

35:51Yeah, no hearing as of now,

35:53but we are planning to organize

35:55and for example, for maintenance requests

35:56and stuff like that, we're gonna start filing stuff,

35:59just other complaints that we have

36:00so that when we do come to a hearing,

36:01we'll be well organized and well equipped for it.

36:05Thank you for that.

36:07Councillor Halt.

36:11Thank you.

36:12Through you to Mr. Kaufman.

36:14Mr. Kaufman, thank you for delegating.

36:17Quick questions.

36:19Organizing is very important.

36:21I appreciate you stating that.

36:22I'm wondering what kind of input

36:25you would like to provide to staff

36:28between now and the beginning of October

36:30when a more comprehensive analysis

36:35of what can be done in wealth.

36:38What would you like to see as around table

36:43or any other possible meeting with staff?

36:48Well, first of all, I definitely plan to show up

36:49on the eighth if this issue is going to be disgusting in there.

36:55As of now, I just think it's good

36:56that we're talking about this stuff.

36:58I'm very grateful to support that we have concerning it.

37:04I'll take this.

37:07All I'll do then is I'll suggest to staff

37:10in the question period that consideration be made

37:14to become engaged, if not already,

37:16with tenants advocates on this issue.

37:21The next issue is I was wondering if you could please

37:23outline what role legal aid has played so far

37:27and what has been the input from both the county

37:29and our local MPP when you've been addressing this.

37:33Have you felt listened to?

37:34Have you felt that action would be taking place

37:38at the legal level and at the political level

37:43from the counties and the local MPP?

37:46So legal aid has actually been great.

37:48Just recently in the past couple of weeks,

37:50we had a meeting with them.

37:51We're all tenants that were in the neighborhood.

37:53We're combined, not just from our building

37:54with our situation, but one's down the road

37:56at another location on Victoria.

37:58They came, they spoke with us,

37:59they helped for the tenants,

38:01just assure them of their rights and stuff like that.

38:05Also had, like I said, we had the paralegals come by

38:07and they spoke on the situation that they've been doing

38:09with the same landlord in other cities.

38:12I think the turnout has been very good in terms of help,

38:14in terms of listening.

38:16Mayor Guthrie met with a couple of us.

38:18I thought that was really great, honestly.

38:22Not something I knew to expect

38:23when this all started, honestly.

38:26It's been great.

38:27A lot of support, even I say from local landlords,

38:30I work at a grocery store.

38:31A lot of people recognize me.

38:33Funny enough, I've had local landlords go like,

38:35hey, I own property and wealth, I rent out,

38:37but these guys are getting away with,

38:40compared to what a small landlord does,

38:44much more personal landlords.

38:46Those landlords that we have on the local level

38:48don't agree either with what's going on.

38:51So you feel comfortable with what the county

38:53and our local MPP have been doing as well?

38:58I like what I've seen so far.

38:59And I'm hoping to, again, show up tomorrow,

39:01get more involved and see things go well.

39:05Thank you.

39:06Perfect, thank you very much.

39:08Councillor Katelyn.

39:10Thank you, through you, Chair.

39:13So one of the items that we have on our list

39:16for the potential package is to have staff look

39:22into potential fines.

39:24And I know that a lot of municipalities

39:27do this differently.

39:28Is there anything that you would be looking forward to

39:33in terms of levels of fines or the legislation around that?

39:39Well, I think one of the first big things

39:41that I've noticed with some of the fines

39:42on just general stuff with this

39:44is that it doesn't reflect actually what the market is.

39:47For example, one of the things that this landlord does,

39:50which is a bit infamous, is he is known for evicting tents,

39:53getting them the boot,

39:55and then you have what is called the right of first refusal

39:57where you can come back to your unit at the same price.

40:00However, what he's been known to do

40:02is he will just put another tenant in there

40:03while you're out.

40:04The timeframe he gave for our renovations,

40:06six to nine months, we've seen them done through weeks.

40:10So his plan is to try and get this done

40:12and get other tenants in so you can evict them.

40:14And the only fine for that is one year

40:16and what you paid in rent and moving expenses.

40:19I find that unacceptable because what happens then

40:22is if he's doubling the rents,

40:24that's just a cost of business.

40:25In half a year, he's topped that up.

40:27If not more, he's starting for utilities as well.

40:30Yeah, the fines are not anywhere near adequate

40:33for to disincentivize this type of thing,

40:35especially when it's done on a mass scale.

40:38Because yeah, in our own building,

40:39we have I believe 44, 45 units.

40:44So a lot of the families are all being displaced.

40:46I'd say at least 30 of those tenants

40:49have received eviction notices.

40:52Just pennies as a business expense

40:54because yeah, within six months,

40:56that's pretty much all covered.

41:00Thank you very much.

41:03Any further questions?

41:05Seeing none, thank you very much, Daniel.

41:07Okay, thank you for your time.

41:09I'm gonna call up Morgan Dandy.

41:19Welcome, Morgan.

41:28Well, the mayor may have decided

41:29to bring this report forward.

41:30I recognize the hours of dedicated work staff have put in

41:34to the renovation bylaw monitoring

41:36to advocate to AMO last month,

41:38as well as the work done by counselors,

41:40Kate and all, and Richardson

41:42that allowed the mayor to do so today.

41:46Committee members, today you have the opportunity

41:49to shape the creation of a bylaw

41:51to protect rental tenants in Gualph,

41:55which are approximately 33% of the people in this country.

42:00The tenant class is seen as less than,

42:04as having an incomplete life.

42:07Because the Canadian dream is home ownership.

42:12This is seen as being all grown up.

42:16Yet 70% of heads of tenant households are over 35,

42:21with 22% over the age of 65.

42:26The misrepresentation of the landlord class

42:28as struggling mom and pop is a contributing factor

42:32to the acceptance of renovictions

42:35that's been happening until lately.

42:39I've been reading this book called The Tenant Class,

42:41and on page 69, sorry, on page 39, it states,

42:46in fact, Canada's landlord class comprises wealthy families,

42:51small businesses, corporations, and financial investors.

42:58When you do a breakdown of the approximate,

43:00which is really hard to get because it's fluctuating,

43:05there's hundreds of thousands of rental units

43:06going in and out every year,

43:08but the basic breakdown that tenants have available

43:12to them in their choices, 12% non-market rental,

43:1738% private rental, which means both those landlords

43:22that have more than one property,

43:25and those true mom and pops that rent out part

43:29of the place that they live.

43:3322% is small business, 20% is corporate,

43:36and 8% are financialized landlords, also known as REITs.

43:42Purpose-built rentals make up about 50%

43:45of what tenant options are,

43:48and the small business corporate

43:49and financialized landlords are the ones

43:52this bylaw must focus on regulating.

43:57On page 50 of this book, it states, quote, in 2021,

44:02a Toronto mom and pop landlord could collect nearly

44:06$3 million of rent for each average-sized building.

44:12Let me repeat that, 3 million for each average-sized building,

44:17and we all know that Guelph rents are comparable to Toronto.

44:22Why should you listen to this author?

44:24His name's Ricardo Tranjan, and he is a senior researcher

44:30at the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives,

44:34a public policy think tank,

44:36and he regularly participates in policy debates

44:40with academics, researchers, and other institutes

44:43and analysts in government.

44:45He also frequently speaks to the media

44:47about the housing crisis and other policy issues.

44:51I would love for staff to all read this book

44:55and get a new understanding of what it is

44:58to actually be a tenant today.

45:03In a news article titled,

45:04The Middle Class Housing Crisis,

45:06the Toronto Star Warrants,

45:07that if rent control were suddenly deceased,

45:10many families would suddenly be confronted

45:12by the danger of eviction or the necessity

45:14to find other accommodation

45:16because they could not afford to stay where they were.

45:18An investigative news story in McLean's

45:20contends the housing crisis,

45:22which shows no immediate signs of easing,

45:25is fueling tenant organizing across the country.

45:28In Quebec, Le Devoie reports on a press conference

45:31organized by tenant committees

45:32demanding provincial investment in affordable housing.

45:36A commentary published in a BC magazine argues

45:39that we must have more homes

45:40and we must have them at prices people can afford to pay.

45:44For many readers, these stories sound like

45:46a random selection of last week's news.

45:49They could have been.

45:50The housing crisis is a recurring topic in Canadian media

45:54with hardly a week going by,

45:56where we do not hear new and daunting findings

45:58about how unaffordable housing has become.

46:01Also the dominant theme in public policy circles

46:04where housing crisis comes up regardless

46:06of the topic of discussion.

46:09All this fuss conceals the fact

46:10that political struggle over housing is old news.

46:13The Toronto Star article was from 1950.

46:15The McLean story appeared in 1969.

46:18The Montreal Press Conference took place in 1980

46:21and the BC commentary dates back to 1911.

46:26There is no actual housing crisis.

46:29That's right, there is no crisis.

46:32Thank you.

46:33I'm just going to ask if there are any questions

46:35on Morgan's presentation.

46:41Seeing none, thank you very much, Morgan.

46:44Next, Debbie Gorman.

46:49Okay, thank you.

46:51Thank you for being here, Debbie.

46:52I'll connect with you.

46:54Next is Myra Freeman.

46:59Is Myra here?

47:04Okay, and then Dominica McPherson and Nicole Hammond next.

47:24Hello, everyone.

47:26Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you

47:28tonight this afternoon in support of these important motions.

47:33I also want to thank city staff for their work on this,

47:36for members of council for your specific advocacy

47:38on this for some time.

47:40And to those of you who spoke and are speaking tonight,

47:44those of you that wrote in letters of support,

47:45those of you that are here,

47:47and to all of the individuals experiencing these issues

47:50in our community today for their ongoing advocacy.

47:54I want to begin by acknowledging the increase

47:56in renovictions that we are seeing across the city.

47:59It's reflective of a broader trend

48:01and becoming a bigger issue.

48:03Ontario has seen a 300% increase in N13 evictions since 2017,

48:10and we've been increasingly hearing from our partners

48:13and community members about the renovictions

48:15they're facing.

48:16These renovictions where tenants are forced out

48:19under the guise of renovations or through conversions

48:21or demolitions are destabilizing,

48:24creating housing insecurity and directly undermining

48:27our efforts to provide affordable housing and wealth.

48:30People who are displaced during these renovations

48:33are often promised the right to move back in,

48:36but in practice this rarely happens,

48:38which you heard tonight.

48:40Too many tenants are unable to afford

48:42the temporary accommodation required during construction,

48:45which means they never return.

48:48This is, in effect, a loss of their home,

48:50a loss of their community, and loss of affordability.

48:55The motions before you tonight provide a real opportunity

48:58to change this trajectory by protecting tenants

49:02and ensuring that landlords fulfill their obligations.

49:05In neighboring municipalities,

49:07we've seen renovation bylaws successfully enacted.

49:10These bylaws safeguard affordable housing

49:13while ensuring the integrity of any new housing development.

49:17If we are serious about housing affordability,

49:20Guelph must join these municipalities

49:22in protecting the homes we already have

49:25alongside creating new housing.

49:28We all agree that we need new housing

49:31to meet growing demand, but we cannot lose sight

49:34of the critical importance of protecting

49:36the affordable housing that already exists.

49:40When people are forced out of their homes

49:42due to renovictions and cannot return,

49:44those affordable units are often lost permanently,

49:48replaced with market rate housing

49:50that many can no longer afford.

49:52We have to ensure that when development happens,

49:55it does not displace or financially devastate

49:58the very people we're trying to serve.

50:01Landlords are engaging in a business,

50:03providing homes for people,

50:05and just like any other business,

50:07it makes sense to regulate that business

50:09through a licensing program.

50:10In the same way we license stores, daycares, contractors,

50:15we should be licensing those in the business

50:17of providing housing,

50:18ensuring accountability and transparency.

50:22This is not about creating obstacles for landlords.

50:25It's about protecting basic rights,

50:27ensuring fair treatment,

50:29and preserving housing security for Guelph residents.

50:33I know there are concerns about the administrative costs

50:36associated with implementing these motions

50:38or a renovation by-law or other pieces mentioned,

50:42but I would encourage you to think of this

50:43not as an expense,

50:44but as an investment in housing security.

50:47You can't put a price on people's right to housing.

50:51The reality is that the city will pay one way or another,

50:55whether it's through the costs of preventing housing crises

50:58or managing the fallout of homelessness and displacement.

51:01The administrative cost of preventing housing loss,

51:04I would argue, is a fraction of what it costs

51:07to manage the long-term impacts of unaffordable housing,

51:10which in the past you could argue

51:11would impact other levels of government,

51:13we've increasingly seen that playing out

51:15at a municipal level.

51:17These motions also represent a strategic alignment

51:20with Guelph Housing Affordability Plan

51:22to advance solutions,

51:23rather than simply managing the problem or worse,

51:27further marginalizing people who are already struggling.

51:31Should you wish to align these motions

51:33with the work of the plan,

51:34which you've expressed earlier?

51:36I encourage you to prioritize a renovation by-law

51:39and related work as part of broader commitments

51:42to both create new affordable housing

51:44and preserve what we currently have.

51:46And I know I can count on you for this

51:48as you've been champions for the right to housing

51:51and housing-focused solutions in the past.

51:54This is your opportunity to be proactive

51:56and support a true solution,

51:58to ensure that affordable housing is protected

52:01and that tenants have the right to stay in their homes,

52:03even as our city grows and changes.

52:06I urge you to support these motions,

52:08whether today or in the future,

52:10and show our community that we are committed

52:12to housing security and affordability for all.

52:15Thank you for your time.

52:17Thank you.

52:18Are there any questions of the delegation?

52:21Councillor Allt?

52:24Thank you very much, Chair Boussatiel.

52:26Through you to the delegate, Ms. McPherson.

52:29Ms. McPherson, you made reference in a general sense

52:34to those who have been unsuccessful at reoccupying

52:38a least dwelling from which they have been, quote,

52:43rent evicted.

52:45Do you have any concrete statistics

52:48that would help us in what we are putting together

52:52in October?

52:54So at the moment, I don't,

52:55but what I will say is we've identified a need

52:59for better data on rental housing in our community

53:02and what's proposed in these motions could help with that.

53:06The data we have available based on the primary rental market,

53:09we don't really have a sense of what's happening

53:11in the secondary rental market.

53:13That's actually been identified through the amazing work

53:15your city staff are doing on the housing affordability

53:18strategy.

53:19So I would actually say to your point, Phil,

53:20there's some data you could get from the Guelph,

53:23the legal clinic here locally who have told me

53:25they've seen a rise and end 13 evictions.

53:28But beyond that, really we got to get a better sense

53:31of our secondary rental market.

53:33And then it gives us both access to what that looks like,

53:36but also communication channels to tenants

53:38because we now know where people are living.

53:41Thank you very much.

53:42I will be following up.

53:43You've just given me a couple of avenues

53:46to which I can investigate.

53:48Thank you, Chair Prasadjil.

53:50I have Councillor Chew.

53:54Thank you, Madam Chair.

53:56I just wanted to get a better picture

53:59of the administrative burden that you have alluded to

54:03during your delegation.

54:04I think we all recognize the growing need to address this

54:07as a city and we're quite united on that.

54:10However, there are some costs associated

54:15from a human resources perspective.

54:17And this might be more of a question

54:18for our general manager, but from your perspective,

54:22how do you see us reconciling the administrative task

54:26of actually enforcing this?

54:28Yeah, thank you for that question.

54:31It might be too soon to speak to this,

54:34but I'm gonna take the risk and say it.

54:35I think the public space bylaw that you recently passed,

54:39which arguably will probably have

54:41significant administrative costs with it to be determined.

54:45But I like to think that if we had better policy mechanisms

54:47like this in place and more solutions oriented pieces

54:51for you to champion that you wouldn't see the same need

54:54for those types of responses when it comes

54:56to specific experiences of people who are unhoused.

55:00The public space bylaw breaches a number

55:02of other important topics around shared public space

55:04and how we all support that as a community.

55:07But I think some of those components

55:08is where it could release some of those pressures.

55:10And too often, I am first to acknowledge the downloading

55:13that has happened on you and the implications

55:15that has for the tax base and everything else.

55:18But I think part of what's being proposed in here

55:21also has some components of some cost recovery

55:25through things like licensing.

55:26I know that there's some work there

55:27to recommend looking into fee structures.

55:30You wanna be super, super thoughtful in looking at that,

55:33but I trust in your staff to really look

55:35at how that's being realized in other communities

55:37and be able to account for some of that.

55:40And I think finally I just say,

55:42I wanna be completely conscious of the pressures

55:44you're facing.

55:45I don't wanna be in your position right now

55:47and I have the utmost respect for what you have to navigate.

55:50But at the same time, we need to,

55:52we really can't put a price on people's right to housing

55:54and the significance of what's being experienced

55:56in our community right now.

55:58With those other municipalities having

56:00those policies in place, it really puts us,

56:02I would argue at disproportionate risk

56:04for landlords to look at this community as one to investing

56:07because it's easier to do renovations.

56:09And again, it's the few and far between landlords,

56:12but the really big ones that we're seeing this

56:13disproportionately from that are really in the business

56:16of turning over housing and displacing tenants

56:18for the purposes of making more profit.

56:20Thanks for the question.

56:23Thank you.

56:24Is there anything further from council?

56:27Yes, councillor Oroch.

56:29Thank you, chair, but still Ms. McPherson.

56:32Yesterday, the federal government brought out

56:35the renters bill of rights.

56:37So I just read it today actually.

56:40So they call on the province

56:41because it's provincial jurisdiction

56:44to bring in mechanisms to track and report

56:46on an increase of rent or evictions.

56:51And also to ensure that those rights

56:54are enshrined in provincial legislation.

56:55So as an advocate, I'm just wondering,

56:57are you aware if the provincial government

56:59is currently undertaking this?

57:01It would make sense because the large landlords,

57:06it would make sense to harmonize the rules

57:08for them across the province, right?

57:10So I'm just wondering if you're aware of any motion

57:12or movement here on behalf of the province.

57:15Not at this time.

57:16And I haven't to be honest, the nerd in me

57:18really wants to dig into what came out yesterday.

57:21And I haven't had the opportunity to do that yet.

57:23But if we're talking about provincial,

57:25I really want to draw attention specifically

57:27to the removal of rent control for units since 2018.

57:31And then also in effect, you lose rent control

57:34if somebody is displaced from the unit

57:35and isn't able to move back in.

57:38So I think the importance of rent control

57:41and considerations around that.

57:42And to be honest, I think we do need action

57:45on the part of the province wholeheartedly.

57:48And I do think the movement,

57:49and generally I would say stay in your lane

57:52to some extent, it makes sense to do that.

57:54But I think that this is really one of those key moments

57:57that if we're seeing leadership from municipalities

57:59that that could influence and will influence the province

58:02to move in the direction that we need to see policy going in.

58:06But to your point, I'd be happy to follow up

58:08if you have to after I dig into that a little bit further.

58:10Yeah.

58:11Great, thank you.

58:12And through you, Chair Bustill,

58:13I was going to ask whether that removal of rent control,

58:17it was for buildings occupied after 2018.

58:19And it wasn't clear to me whether if you do a renovation,

58:23whether that kills the rent control portion,

58:25but you've just answered that question.

58:26Yeah, in effect, that's what happens.

58:28Yeah. Thanks.

58:31Thank you. Are there any further questions?

58:35Seeing none, thank you very much.

58:36Thank you so much for your time.

58:38Nicole, welcome.

58:45So Nicole, you have five minutes,

58:47at four minutes, 30 seconds, you're here a little chime,

58:50and then you've got 30 seconds to wrap up.

58:53Thank you.

58:54Dear members of council,

58:55we're in the midst of a housing crisis,

58:57and this isn't new news.

58:59For years, squall fights and Canadians alike

59:01have been struggling with high costs of living.

59:04Absurd food costs, high fuel prices,

59:06unregulated utilities, and slow growing wages.

59:10It's a fight many of our hardworking citizens

59:12were struggling to keep up.

59:13Now they're losing, losing to investment housing,

59:17when landlords become corporations

59:19who stand to serve investors and shareholders,

59:21not tenants and communities.

59:23My name's Nikki Hammond,

59:25and I've lived in the branch community for 13 years,

59:27and I continue to support the neighbors and community

59:30through my work with the Brandt Neighborhood Support

59:31Coalition and the Brandt Neighborhood Group.

59:35For years, I've seen numbers of our community

59:37struggle to make impossible choices.

59:39Should a single mom send a sick child to school

59:42and risk being fired and stay at home?

59:44Do they pay the rent this week

59:45and not have food for the children?

59:47Impossible choices.

59:50But now I see citizens living in fear,

59:52a community living in fear.

59:54Fear that corporations simply looking to boost

59:56their financial portfolio will uproot their lives,

59:59their homes.

1:00:00These are families, single parents,

1:00:02senior citizens, new Canadians,

1:00:05hardworking and frankly underpaid people.

1:00:08How can we allow those who are most deserving

1:00:11of compassion and care to be displaced and uprooted

1:00:14with no place to go?

1:00:17We have approximately 16 small apartment buildings

1:00:20in the brand community, five of which are in the process

1:00:23of renovations.

1:00:24We understand landlords need to update the properties,

1:00:27but low earning renters need protection too.

1:00:30Many of the families I'm aware of

1:00:32that are currently being evicted due to renovations

1:00:34are paying the lowest rent prices you can find in Guelph.

1:00:37I ask you to look at the displacement

1:00:40that these renovations often unnecessary

1:00:43and simply cosmetic are causing

1:00:45and how this is contributing

1:00:47to the undeniable housing situation.

1:00:50We are asking you to enact strict fines for landlords

1:00:53who are not acting in good faith

1:00:55and not following the right of first refusal process

1:00:58as outlined in the residential tenancies act.

1:01:02We also ask you to require landlords

1:01:03to provide alternative temporary housing to renters

1:01:06at their standing rent price

1:01:08while needed renovations are underway.

1:01:11Here in Guelph we've had passionate debates

1:01:13in regards to homelessness

1:01:14and where these vulnerable community members

1:01:16can set up their temporary homes.

1:01:19Well, what will the outcome be

1:01:20if we do not protect the few affordable units

1:01:22that we do have in Guelph?

1:01:24If families we are displacing

1:01:25or already choosing between food and rent,

1:01:27they won't be able to survive if the rent is doubled.

1:01:30Then where do they go?

1:01:31Thank you.

1:01:34Thank you.

1:01:35Are there any questions for the delegation?

1:01:37Councillor Katelyn.

1:01:39Thank you through chair to the delegate.

1:01:43Recently I went out with a friend apartment hunting

1:01:47and one of the apartments that we went to go see

1:01:49was actually at the Brandt building

1:01:51and the person who was showing me it mentioned

1:01:55that they were having a hard time actually refilling them

1:01:58because the rents were so high.

1:02:00Are you finding that there are a lot of new tenants in these

1:02:04and is there a specific,

1:02:07like is it a lot of students having to share

1:02:09to make up for that additional price hike?

1:02:14Like you said, there's a lot of shared accommodations

1:02:17but we're also seeing very fast turnover.

1:02:20Folks can get it together and make first and last

1:02:23but they can't keep the residency there.

1:02:26So again, they're not able to stay long

1:02:29because the rent's so high.

1:02:31I was doing the same.

1:02:33I was with a friend and they were looking

1:02:35for a two bedroom apartment and that's $2,500.

1:02:38If you're a single mom working at Walmart,

1:02:40you can't do that.

1:02:41I was a single mom working at Walmart.

1:02:44I would have been in a tent with my kids.

1:02:48Thank you.

1:02:49I'm very sorry that that's happening.

1:02:51Are there any further questions?

1:02:58Thank you.

1:02:59Thank you very much.

1:03:00I wanna thank all of the delegations

1:03:03for the personal stories and for really bringing to life

1:03:06to council and to staff to hear how personal

1:03:10and the impact of this issue.

1:03:13There's also an amount of correspondence here

1:03:15for counselors to review.

1:03:18And I'm going to actually turn it back to Mayor Guthrie

1:03:22who had indicated that he also wanted to speak

1:03:25and bring forward a motion.

1:03:31And through you.

1:03:33So what I was wondering to the clerks

1:03:37and through you chair is I'd actually like to see

1:03:41if we can get some movement on two of the motions

1:03:46that I wrote and we can look to maybe defer the other ones.

1:03:52So the two that I would like to move at this time

1:03:56and Councillor Keaton has indicated

1:03:59that she would welcome seconding them

1:04:01is number six and seven on the agenda.

1:04:06And those two items are the landing page

1:04:09that can be set up through our IT and web services

1:04:13to help with the transparency, the facts,

1:04:19the rights of people that they can at least get that started.

1:04:25And the second part is the survey.

1:04:30Now I'm so sorry, I can't remember.

1:04:32I should open up my own correspondence there,

1:04:35but it was either Kitchener or Hamilton

1:04:40that did a survey right away

1:04:42that started to collect a lot of the stories.

1:04:46We've heard a few of them here in delegation process,

1:04:50but we know there's probably a lot of people

1:04:52that either don't wanna be a part of a delegation process,

1:04:56don't know how, they're busy,

1:04:59but they would like to tell their stories

1:05:01that can help inform not just a renovation potential bylaw,

1:05:05but other sort of stories that are happening

1:05:08in the community that I think would be good

1:05:10for our staff to understand

1:05:12when it comes to collecting some data in the future

1:05:15and also for us to understand as well.

1:05:18And so I was wondering if maybe we could look to action

1:05:21both of those things today,

1:05:24and then I would be happy to move and seconded

1:05:26by Councillor Keaton deferral of the remaining motions

1:05:30to October the eighth.

1:05:32So through you, Chair, if you could ask clerks

1:05:35to put that up on the screen, six and seven,

1:05:38I'd be happy to start with that.

1:05:40No.

1:05:41Thank you.

1:05:42And just to be clear, is Councillor Keaton seconding six

1:05:45and seven as well?

1:05:46Yes, please.

1:05:47Okay, thank you.

1:05:53Okay, they are up on the screen.

1:05:56Would you like me to read that or can?

1:06:00Sure, yeah, you can go ahead.

1:06:01Yeah.

1:06:02So item number six is that staff immediately create

1:06:05an eviction survey to shape and capture ongoing impacts

1:06:09of evictions occurring within the city of Guelph.

1:06:12And item seven is that staff be directed

1:06:15to immediately create a renting in Guelph landing page

1:06:19to help guide renters of their rights, expectations,

1:06:24and information from other orders of government

1:06:27and resources.

1:06:29And so that's moved by the mayor

1:06:31and seconded Councillor Keaton.

1:06:34So I'm starting a speaker's list.

1:06:36Councillor Downer, please.

1:06:39Yes, so I have a question.

1:06:41So I'm not questioning that,

1:06:42that these would be very useful.

1:06:44I just, through you, Madam Chair,

1:06:46I just want to question through staff.

1:06:48I know there was an expectation

1:06:49that this work could be referred to a later meeting.

1:06:53Are we going to be able to do this soon?

1:06:56I'm just thinking about the staff resources.

1:07:03Through the, through the chair to Councillor Downer.

1:07:08Yes, we recognize that this is important.

1:07:11I know that we were looking to have a fulsome discussion

1:07:14on what we were going to be spending our time on

1:07:18as it relates to housing on October the eighth.

1:07:21I will tell you,

1:07:22this is not an anybody's work plan right now.

1:07:24So I don't have an answer for you

1:07:26on how quick we might be able to get this up on the website

1:07:29or who will be working on it

1:07:31and what work will have to be deferred

1:07:33in order to be able to do it.

1:07:34But if that's Council's direction to proceed with it,

1:07:38then we will, but I don't have those answers

1:07:39for you at this time.

1:07:41Okay.

1:07:43Thank you.

1:07:44I have Councillor Arora and then Councillor Allt.

1:07:46Thank you, Chair.

1:07:47I'll still through you to the mover

1:07:49or potentially to our acting DCAO of public services.

1:07:54The intent of the survey is to capture

1:07:56the ongoing impacts of evictions.

1:07:59Mayor Guthrie, I'm just wondering if we would want

1:08:03to ask the county whether they're seeing impacts

1:08:05in terms of rising funds required for rent supplements.

1:08:10So, you know, we are,

1:08:13that survey would go to folks who might be facing

1:08:16rent eviction to get a sense of the scope of the problem

1:08:19I'm wondering if the county has data

1:08:21that they can already quantify what it costs

1:08:24when someone is renovicted,

1:08:25if they have to start providing rent supplements.

1:08:32Through you, Chair.

1:08:34Sure.

1:08:36Yeah, there could be some correlation there for sure.

1:08:41But I feel like the cities that have gone before us

1:08:46that have used the survey and the landing page option

1:08:50have gleaned a lot of their own data,

1:08:55that that might be good, not just for ourselves,

1:08:57but to share with the county.

1:08:59And then that correlation might take place there.

1:09:04Yeah, I'll stop there.

1:09:04I'm sorry if that's not answering your question,

1:09:06but I'll turn it back to you.

1:09:10So, I'm just wondering,

1:09:13because Ms. McPherson referred to, right?

1:09:16The other costs, there are tend to administrative costs

1:09:19in the city, but there's also a cost.

1:09:22If the city and the county have to start increasing

1:09:24rent supplements and increasing the number

1:09:27of affordable housing units, et cetera.

1:09:29So, I was just wondering what data they had.

1:09:31I'm just wondering, through you Chair Bustill,

1:09:35if our DCAO of public services would be able to ask

1:09:40the county for that information,

1:09:42or if we feel we need a motion.

1:09:46Through the chair, to Councillor Oroch,

1:09:47absolutely we can ask the county that question.

1:09:50Great, if that can come October the 8th is tomorrow

1:09:53in terms of agendas and things like that.

1:09:55But I think that'd be a helpful piece of information

1:09:58so we can determine what that investment looks like

1:10:01and what are the offsetting costs.

1:10:03Thanks.

1:10:04Thank you. I have Councillor Allt.

1:10:07Very much Chair Bustill.

1:10:10I'm not going to belabor us with any motions,

1:10:13but I support the motions that are to be voted upon,

1:10:18but I do have a caveat about them.

1:10:22And that is what I was talking to Mr. Kaufman about,

1:10:25what Mr. Kaufman made very, very clear.

1:10:28We have many, many renters who are technologically unskilled.

1:10:35And I am hoping that staff can take it under advisement

1:10:39to not just do what is the passive thing,

1:10:41setting up a website that people must go to,

1:10:45but rather actively solicit,

1:10:47perhaps through the neighborhood groups,

1:10:49like the Brandt neighborhood group,

1:10:52and tenants such as Mr. Kaufman,

1:10:54who are clearly engaged to have people provide their stories

1:10:59in other ways as well.

1:11:00This is a very short timeframe that we have

1:11:04to October the 8th.

1:11:05And I think in terms of what we did

1:11:08with the acceptable use by law,

1:11:11where we could not actually engage the AAC

1:11:15because we didn't have enough time.

1:11:17This is approximately the same amount of time.

1:11:20And so consequently, I don't want us to have us

1:11:24set up an expectation in both staff to do the website

1:11:28and everything that's entailed in this

1:11:31and have the community be able to become engaged

1:11:35in the next three weeks,

1:11:36if it is clearly going to be something

1:11:39that is not going to be incredibly enhancing of our efforts.

1:11:45And I think we need to be very, very clear of that.

1:11:47I mean, I think Councillor Boussatiel,

1:11:49when I assisted you in doing taxes

1:11:51at the Royal City Mission,

1:11:53where we literally had to go out and talk to people

1:11:56to get them to come in because they had no way of knowing

1:11:58that it's being done,

1:12:01I think our communications needs to be more actively driven

1:12:05so that we get to the people that are really being affected.

1:12:09And that's to staff.

1:12:11Can we do it the other way as well?

1:12:13This is a simple question.

1:12:22Through the chair to Councillor Allt,

1:12:24as TCO Holmes advised, we haven't identified the staff

1:12:30or that it's something obviously we can take back

1:12:32to communications and take a look at options,

1:12:35but we have not identified who or how long it would take.

1:12:39Yeah, and that's my concern.

1:12:41I'll leave it that chair Boussatiel,

1:12:44but as I said, I'm going to support the motions,

1:12:46but I hope that we don't set up an expectation

1:12:50that cannot be delivered.

1:12:52Thank you.

1:12:53And within the limits of Council,

1:12:55just a clarification for the mover and the seconder,

1:12:58is the expectation that this work would be done

1:13:01by October 8th and coming to Council by that time?

1:13:05No, Madam Chair, not at all.

1:13:08It's just to action it through you, Chair.

1:13:11It's the motion is to immediately start

1:13:13actioning these two items.

1:13:16So it takes them a little bit, so be it.

1:13:18But I just want to be very clear.

1:13:21If we have any type of direction that Council wants to give

1:13:25in regards to the actual rent eviction issue,

1:13:29we can do that on October the 8th.

1:13:31We can debate and discuss that on October the 8th,

1:13:33engagement, whatever you want to,

1:13:35as Councillor Allt was suggesting.

1:13:37This is about evictions.

1:13:40The motion is clear about evictions

1:13:42and it's about rights and getting that stuff up

1:13:47for people to know.

1:13:48I think what's important is look at the wording

1:13:51of these motions, about actioning both of these now

1:13:54as soon as possible, but recognizing they will not be ready

1:13:58for October the 8th.

1:14:00Thank you for the clarification.

1:14:01Are there any other questions, comments?

1:14:07Seeing none, can we have the motions back up please?

1:14:11So that Council knows.

1:14:14And then I'm going to call the question.

1:14:21Okay, so it's in our package,

1:14:22it's item six and seven of the motions in the agenda.

1:14:27It's been moved and seconded.

1:14:29Are there any opposed to the motions?

1:14:35Seeing none, it's unanimous, it's carried.

1:14:38Thank you very much.

1:14:40And I believe there are no service area chair

1:14:43or staff announcements.

1:14:44So I'm going to pass on to-

1:14:46Oh, point of order, Madam Chair.

1:14:49We still have to do the deferral motion on the-

1:14:51Thank you, yes.

1:14:52And still yourself and Councillor Keaton.

1:14:56Yes, Madam Chair.

1:14:57And I wondered if I could just say a comment

1:14:59before the final vote now.

1:15:00Certainly, yes.

1:15:01And I'll get the clerks to put that up.

1:15:04Thank you.

1:15:06Yeah, so we're all kind of hearing stories right now.

1:15:09And I thought I would just quickly

1:15:11in my closing comments here,

1:15:13just talk about one story that hit me pretty hard.

1:15:16And these are all issues that are hitting me hard.

1:15:19Don't get me wrong.

1:15:20This one was, it's a townhouse on college.

1:15:26And it's a newly landed family.

1:15:28I would say they've been here in Canada

1:15:32for maybe about under five years.

1:15:36Mom and dad and like five kids.

1:15:40And I was over at their place a few years ago,

1:15:44hanging out with them.

1:15:45And in the conversation,

1:15:48they said that they've had to move

1:15:51because their landlord said that their sister,

1:15:53the landlord's sister is gonna be coming

1:15:56and now living at that place.

1:16:00And like, you know, my spidey senses

1:16:01kind of went off a little bit.

1:16:03And needless to say, I told, you know,

1:16:06I gave them advice to seek legal advice

1:16:09and things like that.

1:16:10But at the end of the day,

1:16:13they had to move out of that townhouse

1:16:16and they moved five townhouses down the row

1:16:20in the same complex for $1,000 more a month.

1:16:25It's the exact same home.

1:16:28And what was told to them was wrong.

1:16:33And I just want, you know,

1:16:35I just want people to understand

1:16:36that when I'm bringing this forward,

1:16:39and I said this in my comments in the correspondence,

1:16:43this is our bylaws are to try to get people into compliance.

1:16:48And our bylaws are enforced when they have,

1:16:53it's for the minute minority of people

1:16:56that don't follow the rules.

1:16:59And this is why landlords that I've talked to

1:17:02have actually been in favor of this

1:17:05because they give a bad name to the landlords

1:17:10that are doing things right.

1:17:12And I don't want to paint a brush across all landlords

1:17:15because that's not right either at all.

1:17:19But there are a few that are not playing by the rules.

1:17:23And so the only reason why municipalities

1:17:26are having to step into this space, Madam Chair,

1:17:28is because of those very few people

1:17:31that aren't playing by the rules.

1:17:32And I would add a provincial government

1:17:34that doesn't have the legislation in place

1:17:36to cover things off properly.

1:17:38That's why municipalities are having to step up.

1:17:41So I appreciate the delegates coming out,

1:17:44the delegates informing me about what the heck's going on

1:17:47because without your stories,

1:17:49I wouldn't know that it's that bad.

1:17:51So you definitely show that it is.

1:17:55And I look forward to on the eighth

1:17:57to look to hopefully ratify,

1:17:59and actually move forward with something like this

1:18:02as part of the tools that we could have

1:18:05in our municipal basket

1:18:07to be able to try to address this issue.

1:18:10And I hope that everyone

1:18:12that is experiencing these situations right now

1:18:15does seek that sort of legal advice

1:18:17that you have the right to have.

1:18:21And so with that, thank you, Madam Chair.

1:18:24I just wanted to make sure I've said those few things

1:18:26before the final vote, I appreciate it.

1:18:29Thank you.

1:18:30And I'll just wait for the clerks to put the motion up.

1:18:36Councillor Oroch.

1:18:38Thanks, Chair Buce-Till.

1:18:39I just wanted to come back to a comment by Ms. Dandy

1:18:42that tenants are seen as less than

1:18:44because I don't think that should stand

1:18:47as it's certainly not a reflection of this council

1:18:51or our staff for sure.

1:18:52My, no, no, my dad was a renter,

1:18:55lots of folks rent at different stages in the lives.

1:19:00So I know I just want to be clear

1:19:02that that's certainly not the opinion of the council

1:19:06and I appreciate the reference to the publication.

1:19:11We've said many times that we have had a massive focus

1:19:16on what is most urgent,

1:19:17what is most visible on our streets,

1:19:19but I just want people to know we are concerned

1:19:21about the folks who are currently housed

1:19:23and who are one rent hike away from

1:19:27having to make some really difficult choices.

1:19:29So people should know that we have that concern

1:19:33about renters on the market side as well

1:19:36when we're talking about the spectrum.

1:19:40Thank you.

1:19:40Councillor Chew.

1:19:43Thank you, Madam Chair.

1:19:44I just want to emphasize Mayor Guthrie's emphasis

1:19:48on how bylaw works.

1:19:50Like by nature, it's a compliance measure

1:19:53and like we have to not lose sight of that as a municipality.

1:19:58Like we're dealing with issues operational in nature

1:20:01to make sure that everyone in the city

1:20:03that's living under one roof can live

1:20:06so affably and peaceably

1:20:10because at the end of the day,

1:20:11we have to go to our neighbors

1:20:13and we have residents that are right next door

1:20:15and we have, and these issues at the end of the day

1:20:19are very personal in nature.

1:20:21And that's why, yeah, like our tenant,

1:20:24our landlord, tenant board is a complete disaster,

1:20:27but that is a provincial issue.

1:20:29And while I think the landing pages

1:20:31and all of these measures that we're going to bring forward

1:20:35today will help with the education piece

1:20:38and the advocacy piece,

1:20:41these are not issues that we can deal with

1:20:43directly as a municipality on our own.

1:20:45So I just want to really emphasize that here today

1:20:48because I think that the last few weeks,

1:20:51the last year in general,

1:20:53we've had to deal with issues

1:20:55that are totally not within our lane.

1:20:57And that's something that we need to recognize

1:21:00so that we don't continue to burden staff

1:21:05with these issues that some of which

1:21:07are completely out of our control.

1:21:09And it's just been on my heart to emphasize that here today.

1:21:12And I think we all share the same sentiments.

1:21:15And yeah, we just need to remember what we're here for.

1:21:20So yeah, thank you so much for this opportunity.

1:21:25Anyone else who would like to speak?

1:21:30Okay, saying nine quay at the motion.

1:21:35Councillor Keaton.

1:21:37Thank you, through you, Chair.

1:21:39I think that it's an important task

1:21:43that we're embarking on and that while we can't solve the issue

1:21:49because it is provincial,

1:21:51we can do all we can to make sure

1:21:54that the rules are followed.

1:21:56And we can advocate towards the Providence,

1:21:58which I'm very proud that we did at AMO.

1:22:01And I don't think that it's a burden on staff

1:22:04to help safeguard the rights of renters.

1:22:07Thank you.

1:22:12Just a point of order.

1:22:14I just want to clarify on a record

1:22:16that wasn't the intention of my messaging.

1:22:19It was just really to emphasize that

1:22:22we have certain responsibilities as a municipality

1:22:25and we all feel the benevolence to help.

1:22:27And we're trying to help, but at the same time,

1:22:30we need to, we're asking for help from the province

1:22:32and the federal government right now.

1:22:34Point of privilege.

1:22:35Point of privilege, thank you.

1:22:36Thank you.

1:22:37Okay, are we ready to call the question?

1:22:41Okay, thank you.

1:22:41Can we have the motion up on the screen please?

1:22:48That discussion regarding recommendations one to five

1:22:50of item 9.1, the municipal scan of renovation bylaws

1:22:54be deferred until the housing affordability strategy

1:22:58is brought before city council on October 8, 2024,

1:23:02moved by the mayor, seconded Councillor Keaton.

1:23:06Anyone opposed?

1:23:10That motion carries unanimously.

1:23:12Thank you.

1:23:12Okay, and there are no item 10,

1:23:15service area chair and staff announcements.

1:23:17I'm just looking at the mayor, no.

1:23:19And seeing that, I'm going to pass the chair

1:23:21to Councillor O'Rourke.

1:23:58Okay, so if you were joining us

1:24:00for the reviction agenda item, that item is now concluded.

1:24:05We're moving into the IDE portion,

1:24:07which is infrastructure development and environment.

1:24:10We are going to be talking about housing supply

1:24:13and Guelph's growth management report.

1:24:16So they are not unrelated.

1:24:18You're welcome to stay.

1:24:24Okay, so the item for discussion is a start

1:24:31from the consent agenda.

1:24:33That's the Guelph growth management

1:24:34and affordable housing monitoring report 2023, 2024.

1:24:39And Mayor Guthrie wanted to speak to this item.

1:24:41Mayor Guthrie.

1:24:44Yeah, thank you so much, Madam Chair and through you.

1:24:47I really, first of all, it's a great report.

1:24:51I want to thank staff for putting it together.

1:24:56There has been a lot of talk in the community about,

1:25:01and I'm just going to say the phrase that we all say,

1:25:03which is approved and unbuilt, approved and unbuilt.

1:25:09And the data that's captured in this report,

1:25:15I thought was, again, was very well laid out.

1:25:19And I've always been really curious

1:25:21about what is happening actually

1:25:25in the development community right now,

1:25:28the arena that we're in as society,

1:25:32about not getting shovels in the ground.

1:25:35And so I just wanted to bring this forward

1:25:38because I wondered if maybe some of my colleagues

1:25:40might have a question.

1:25:42And also an opportunity

1:25:44if the development community wanted to speak to it as well.

1:25:48And so that's why it's before us.

1:25:51I have nothing, just so everyone knows,

1:25:53I have nothing at all planned in any action

1:25:57that's coming out of this.

1:25:58I just wanted to have a discussion about it.

1:26:01There's no motions that I have or anything like that.

1:26:04So I just thought I would bring this forward

1:26:07just in case there's anyone on council

1:26:09and myself that has questions

1:26:12or if those in the community wanted to speak to it as well.

1:26:15And so with that, I'll turn it over to you, Madam Chair,

1:26:18for delegations.

1:26:22Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

1:26:23So we'll go straight to delegations

1:26:25as there's no motion to table.

1:26:28Scott Hannah from the Guelph Wellington Development Association.

1:26:36So Mr. Hannah, you have five minutes

1:26:40and you'll hear a chime at four minutes and 30 seconds.

1:26:46Thank you, Mr. Mayor and members of council.

1:26:48For those of you who don't know me, I'm Scott Hannah

1:26:51and I'm here representing

1:26:52the Guelph Wellington Development Association

1:26:54to speak to the report

1:26:56and specifically the city's residential inventory.

1:26:59You have the letter attached to the report

1:27:01and I don't intend to repeat it, but I have three goals today.

1:27:04The first being I want to give a better understanding

1:27:07of the short-term inventory.

1:27:09I want to respond to the rhetoric

1:27:11that there are approximately 6,000 units

1:27:14that are being sat on by the development community.

1:27:17It's really not that accurate

1:27:19and we're hoping that it will stop.

1:27:20And I want to focus on working together

1:27:23to grow the true shovel-ready inventory in all categories.

1:27:26I want to first give a huge shout out to staff,

1:27:29especially Jason Downen, who I see is here, thanks Jason.

1:27:33Both associations work collaboratively with staff

1:27:36and confirm that at the end of 2023,

1:27:38there are in fact 5,874 potential units that are,

1:27:44or in fact meet the provincial definition.

1:27:46But we also confirm that of those units,

1:27:49less than 2,000 are actually close to permit ready.

1:27:54And I want to just emphasize, this is not a Guelph phenomenon.

1:27:56Other building and development associations,

1:27:59build GTA, are basically saying the same thing.

1:28:02The provincial definition of short-term supply

1:28:05creates a false narrative.

1:28:07Many of the 5,874 potential units

1:28:10are actually highly constrained.

1:28:12As noted in the letter, there are holding zones

1:28:14with conditions, there are potentially contaminated sites,

1:28:17there are sites with leases and easements and litigation,

1:28:21and they all create constraints,

1:28:23and they take lots of time and lots of money to resolve.

1:28:27We've concluded, both staff and the association,

1:28:31that at only about 66% of the units

1:28:33are even close to building permit ready.

1:28:36And of those 1,984, we're not actually sure

1:28:39whether they're permit ready,

1:28:40because they may actually require other approvals

1:28:42like site plan.

1:28:442024, I want to emphasize, has been a very tough year

1:28:47for both of us.

1:28:48Permits are way down, and you've made a commitment

1:28:51to the province to provide 1,500 new units.

1:28:54In the end of August, you've only supplied 500 new units or less,

1:28:59and most of those are accessory apartments,

1:29:01which is a highly successful program.

1:29:03The numbers, however, are reflective of the market in 2024,

1:29:07and there are things in that market that you just can't control.

1:29:11The high-density apartment market is basically non-existent.

1:29:14The townhouse market is slow,

1:29:16and unfortunately, 95% of your inventory is that.

1:29:20So the lack of available inventory is not the primary cause,

1:29:25but it doesn't help.

1:29:26The real short-term supply needs to be much larger

1:29:29to support consistent productivity and allow you and I,

1:29:34you and us, the development community,

1:29:35and you to respond to market conditions as they improve,

1:29:39and they will.

1:29:41Your staff have been great.

1:29:43Your staff and the development industry

1:29:45are actually working very, very hard

1:29:47to bring housing developments to shovel-ready status,

1:29:50but the municipal planning approval process

1:29:52is time-consuming and costly.

1:29:55We are not just sitting on the inventory.

1:29:57Most of us are actually actively seeking approvals,

1:30:01but as I said before, much of the inventory is constrained.

1:30:05We think a better definition of short-term inventory

1:30:08is actually shovel-ready units that we define in our letter.

1:30:13I believe we should all want to collectively work

1:30:16to increase the supply of shovel-ready units,

1:30:19but to do so, we actually need to track them.

1:30:22Having been a former staff member here,

1:30:24I know that you have the Amanda system,

1:30:26and Jason has confirmed that you have the ability to do this.

1:30:30We'd like to collectively work towards tripling the supply

1:30:34of shovel-ready sites so that when the market conditions

1:30:37improve, we are both ready to act.

1:30:40So that brings me to really two simple requests.

1:30:44When the report is released next year,

1:30:46in addition to all the provincial requirements

1:30:48you need to do, we are hoping that staff track

1:30:51and emphasize shovel-ready units as defined in our letter.

1:30:54We want to see basically that year over year,

1:30:57we're actually getting things better.

1:30:59We're also hoping that the report will be a public report,

1:31:02and I want to thank Mayor Guthrie

1:31:04for pulling the information report forward.

1:31:07It's got a huge amount of great information.

1:31:10When I was your manager of development planning,

1:31:12I helped publish the annual Development Priorities Plan

1:31:16that had similar information.

1:31:18It was widely used by the real estate community,

1:31:20development industry, media, and others,

1:31:23and I'd like to see that continue.

1:31:25So finally, we believe that creating more effective tools

1:31:29like the shovel-ready metric would help the community

1:31:33and the industry build confidence in our collective actions

1:31:36on housing and wealth.

1:31:38I want to thank you for your time,

1:31:39and I'll answer any questions.

1:31:41I suspect there are questions.

1:31:43Sit tight.

1:31:44Councillor Downer.

1:31:46Thank you, through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. Hanner.

1:31:49So what you want is...

1:31:54So are you still wanting us to do the short term availability,

1:31:58which is what requires and what the province

1:32:00wants the information on?

1:32:02Yes, I certainly want staff to continue.

1:32:04So you want additional information.

1:32:05Correct.

1:32:06So what is...

1:32:07So as you said, there's still probably...

1:32:11I don't know what you're saying,

1:32:13some of them there's constraints and things like that.

1:32:15So there's...

1:32:16But you've admitted there's over 2,000

1:32:19that probably could be developed on.

1:32:24They need site plan.

1:32:25They just have to apply for site plan, right?

1:32:28And that's not the city's responsibility

1:32:30if they haven't put in those applications.

1:32:33So that's what I'm trying to get at.

1:32:34So what are you doing?

1:32:36What is the development association doing

1:32:41about those that have been on the list for nine plus years?

1:32:45Like what are you...

1:32:46What's being done to remove those constraints

1:32:48to help bring these forward?

1:32:51Well, I'll make motion or I'll make...

1:32:56Bring one thing to your information.

1:32:58Like you did a great job with your housing storyboard

1:33:00last year and you pointed out six of the sites

1:33:03that had been on the inventory for some of them

1:33:06as long as I was here from 1998 to 2011.

1:33:09That would be both the best then.

1:33:11Yeah.

1:33:12But of those six that were referenced,

1:33:16one's been removed through discussions with Jason

1:33:18because it's not developable.

1:33:21Two of them are actually going through

1:33:22the site plan approval process and our service.

1:33:26One of them or two of them are available for purchase.

1:33:28They're actually on the market.

1:33:30And the last one, which was the big Gordon Street one,

1:33:32just went through another OLT hearing,

1:33:35which with another significant list of conditions,

1:33:37and I'm sure they're trying to satisfy them.

1:33:40I represent some developers in your area.

1:33:46And I can tell you that I've been working hard

1:33:48on both three or four sites for the last three years.

1:33:51It's a tough thing to do.

1:33:53It takes time and it takes energy.

1:33:56The conditions that were imposed on a development application

1:33:5940 years ago when I started in this business

1:34:01were about that long.

1:34:03They're this long now.

1:34:05I'm just trying to pass forward a message

1:34:08that we're not sitting on.

1:34:10We're actively trying to get them to market, but it's tough.

1:34:15So I'm still trying to get clarity on that.

1:34:17You're not sitting on them,

1:34:20but you're not moving them forward to be developed either.

1:34:24Some of them, like, you know, I don't know

1:34:25what is the developer association doing then

1:34:29to bring some of those forward.

1:34:31You talked about some of them that have come forward,

1:34:34but a lot of those, it's not the responsibility

1:34:39of our staff to do your site plan,

1:34:43like site plan applications, right?

1:34:45So, you know, why are these things not being done?

1:34:50So, I'm having trouble if you're not,

1:34:54you're sitting on them,

1:34:55if you're not moving them forward in some way.

1:34:59That's what it sounds like to me.

1:35:01Well, the one suggestion I would actually give to staff,

1:35:04if they're not doing it already,

1:35:05and I actually think some of them are,

1:35:07is that if you see a site

1:35:09and you think it's been sitting there for 15 years,

1:35:12call somebody and ask why.

1:35:14I have a particular site that I have interested in

1:35:17that had gone through a zoning process

1:35:19and site plan process, so you can guess what it is.

1:35:22And right now it's having very difficult time

1:35:24getting financing.

1:35:25They're actively pursuing financing,

1:35:27but they can't get it.

1:35:29If they would get financing, they would go out and build it.

1:35:34And I don't want to debate that,

1:35:35I'm still trying to get clarity,

1:35:36but that's not the city's responsibility or fault,

1:35:41say to say, it's still being,

1:35:43let's just say it's maybe not be sad of being sit on.

1:35:47So, things are trying to be done on the developer side,

1:35:50but the city doesn't report it that way

1:35:53because it's still not ready.

1:35:55Like it's still not, not that it's not ready,

1:35:58it's still not, it's still been approved

1:36:00up to what were required to report.

1:36:04Yeah, I mean, basically the city council and staff

1:36:07have control over the process, right?

1:36:10And there are potentially things in the process

1:36:12that we can debate and we actually said that in a letter,

1:36:15we're going to continue the dialogue with staff

1:36:17to see if we can simplify the process.

1:36:19But yeah, you're right, that's all you can do.

1:36:21You can get it to the finish line,

1:36:23you can't force somebody to build it.

1:36:26But you gave the example of financing.

1:36:29Yep.

1:36:29That's not ours.

1:36:31It's still then, maybe sitting on it is a wrong term.

1:36:34Maybe is it sitting on it, that's the objective term,

1:36:37or do you want to say, us to say something else?

1:36:41I'd like to have at the end of the day,

1:36:43both saying we're working together really hard

1:36:45to try to bring on units.

1:36:46And you don't think that's happening?

1:36:49I've seen evidence where it's been quoted

1:36:52that we're sitting on 6,000 units.

1:36:54That's primarily one of the reasons why I'm here tonight.

1:36:57So it's the language that some of us are using

1:36:59and people are using that you'd rather use us,

1:37:02that we're working together to bring forward 6,000 units.

1:37:06That would be correct.

1:37:07That would be better?

1:37:08Yep.

1:37:09Okay.

1:37:11I think that's all the questions now.

1:37:14So just one more clarification.

1:37:16So the Amanda system, so I'm concerned about the amount

1:37:20of work that it would involve in staff

1:37:22to look at all those 6,000 units,

1:37:26and I don't know how many developments that would be,

1:37:29to have to clarify every year what it is

1:37:32that's holding that up, like the amount of work to sort of,

1:37:35if they're not at that point, they're not at that point.

1:37:37Thanks.

1:37:39But I can clarify, I'll ask first to talk about that.

1:37:43Well, I'll help first of all, Jason's done a great job.

1:37:45I'm sitting here with the spreadsheet and it's amazing.

1:37:48And he just asked to add a few more columns

1:37:49that he can't.

1:37:51Okay.

1:37:51Thanks.

1:37:53Thanks, Mr. Herron.

1:37:55Councillor Caron.

1:37:59Chair O'Rourke.

1:38:00And thank you, Mr. Hannah, for bringing this forward

1:38:03and for your delegation, because I think you've opened

1:38:06a conversation that we really needed to have,

1:38:08and as one of those who's been out there

1:38:11using that 6,000 figure, I'm sure you can appreciate

1:38:15that the context of that figure is usually

1:38:20when the members of the community, the housing community,

1:38:27the development community, we hear a lot as councillors

1:38:31and we've received letters from the community,

1:38:34including the Chamber saying the city needs to do more,

1:38:36the city needs to do more, the city's not doing enough.

1:38:40And so the 6,000 units is often in response to that,

1:38:45that belief or that challenge that

1:38:50the unbuilt inventory is a city problem.

1:38:55And I hate to use the words, the Guelph Factor,

1:38:57but we've been dealing with that for a decade.

1:38:59So my question to you is, and I think Councillor Downer

1:39:03alluded to it, is when we're talking about

1:39:08what each of our roles is in bringing those units forward,

1:39:15we need to have a better conversation

1:39:17about the responsibility on both sides.

1:39:20And I recognize you've kind of got some language

1:39:23that you've suggested that we're working together.

1:39:27But are you doing any communications in the community

1:39:31about what your challenges are?

1:39:33You've said financing, I'm also hearing labor and materials,

1:39:37I'm also hearing the markets actually,

1:39:42the lineups all night to get a unit in a new development

1:39:46that aren't happening anymore.

1:39:48So what is the association doing to communicate

1:39:51some of those challenges so that it all doesn't dump

1:39:54on the city for lack of a better phrase?

1:39:59Yeah, I appreciate your comments too.

1:40:01I'm not sure what the associations are doing.

1:40:04I know there's work right now that we're actually trying

1:40:07to merge the associations potentially to have one voice.

1:40:12I can certainly take the comments back.

1:40:14I actually sit on the board now, believe it or not,

1:40:17of GWDA and I think your suggestion is a good one.

1:40:21I think we need to do a better job through the media

1:40:23of indicating some of the things that are problematic,

1:40:26like higher interest rates and financing and construction

1:40:29costs and supply chain issues and et cetera, et cetera.

1:40:32Well, I don't think we're doing a good job of that.

1:40:35I appreciate that.

1:40:36And I mean, there's more the city can and the government

1:40:38and the feds and the province can also be doing,

1:40:40but I do appreciate that the industry itself

1:40:43needs to communicate the challenges they're having

1:40:45so that we don't wanna play the blame game

1:40:48any more than you do.

1:40:49So thank you for delegating.

1:40:51Yep, thanks.

1:40:53Oh, Councillor Billings.

1:40:58To you, Madam Chair, in the letter,

1:41:01it refers to again, the access to funding

1:41:03and there's a holding symbol issue,

1:41:06which could be engineering comments,

1:41:09but usually that's dealt with that site plan.

1:41:12So can you comment about that?

1:41:14Because holding symbols, as you know, are nothing new.

1:41:17However, it's alluding to the fact that that's one

1:41:20of the reasons why it's been difficult to

1:41:22for the developers to access funding.

1:41:25So can you comment about that?

1:41:26And is there anything else or an alternative that we can do?

1:41:30So it doesn't hold up the developer?

1:41:34Yeah, and that was one of the examples

1:41:35we used in the letter.

1:41:38Holding symbols, believe it or not,

1:41:40like planners understand that it's not really an issue

1:41:43that you have a holding symbol.

1:41:44It's really saying you have an extra condition

1:41:46that you have to fulfill.

1:41:47In my day, it was mostly dealing

1:41:49with potentially contaminated sites

1:41:51and records of site condition.

1:41:53But the financing institutions see it as problematic

1:41:58and it's very, very difficult to get financing

1:42:01or even discuss financing until the holding symbol is lifted.

1:42:05And I guess the only criticism I would give

1:42:08to what's happening at Guelph today

1:42:10is I'm seeing a lot of conditions

1:42:13that are being added to holding zones

1:42:16that are typically dealt with through site plan approval.

1:42:19That would have maybe been an engineering condition.

1:42:21And I think one of the suggestions,

1:42:23if I could put it out there,

1:42:24saying let's really, really look at

1:42:26when you actually use a holding symbol and when you don't.

1:42:30I have an example of a development.

1:42:32I'm not gonna name the development,

1:42:33but it was typically an engineering grading condition

1:42:36that took six months to resolve.

1:42:38It's still ongoing.

1:42:39Well, the holding symbol has been lifted now,

1:42:41but it took six months to resolve.

1:42:42And that's six months of extra time.

1:42:45So it is problematic when holding symbols are used

1:42:49for things that would typically be dealt with

1:42:51through another process.

1:42:54Okay.

1:42:57And also in the letter, you speak to the process,

1:43:02the planning process and how we could make

1:43:05that more efficient.

1:43:07And I think you even stated,

1:43:08well, you're gonna work with staff,

1:43:10but it's like if council doesn't hear what these issues are,

1:43:16then how can we make changes?

1:43:18So can you comment on that?

1:43:22Well, I have the unique perspective

1:43:23that I worked 31 years on your side of the counter,

1:43:27staff side, and I'm now working as a consultant

1:43:29on the private side.

1:43:31So I understand the trials and tribulations

1:43:34that staff go through.

1:43:35And I know they're doing their best to bring on development.

1:43:38I really believe that.

1:43:39And we will continue the dialogue.

1:43:41I'm not gonna get into making suggestions

1:43:43in front of you tonight.

1:43:45We have regular meetings with staff

1:43:47and we'll continue to throw out ideas

1:43:49and we'll see if they fit.

1:43:52Okay.

1:43:53Thanks, Scott.

1:43:54Okay.

1:43:56Okay, I'm looking around the horseshoe.

1:43:58Any other questions?

1:43:59I've got a few.

1:43:59Thank you for your time, Mr. Hannah.

1:44:02So you said you've been on,

1:44:03you were on the staff side for 31 years

1:44:06and the list of sort of measures required

1:44:10before to get shovel ready has grown.

1:44:13And I'm just curious to what degree is that city driven

1:44:17or provincially driven.

1:44:19So new provincial regulation like soils

1:44:22or environmental monitoring or things like that.

1:44:24I'm just curious what's driving

1:44:26that added complexity over the period of time.

1:44:30I would say that it's both

1:44:31because some of them are mandatory things

1:44:33that the province has said that you now have to do.

1:44:36Other ones are things that cities,

1:44:39some cities do and some cities don't.

1:44:42And I think that if you wanna look at improving the process,

1:44:47you need to look at some of those things

1:44:49that you have discretionary control over

1:44:51and say, are they really required?

1:44:53When I was first started in planning in 12th,

1:44:57we would circulate a zoning application to engineering

1:45:00and they would come back five minutes later

1:45:01and say, everything's fine.

1:45:04We'll deal with the matters of site plan.

1:45:06Now you have functional servicing reports

1:45:09that need to be revised and revised.

1:45:11You know, it gets a little,

1:45:12you got a question at what point in the process

1:45:15do you actually need that level of detail?

1:45:18So I mean, I will continue to work with staff,

1:45:20but there are mandatory things.

1:45:23Cashionloo of Parkland as an example has gone crazy.

1:45:26I mean, it used to be $5,000 we get.

1:45:28Now it's $600,000, $800,000 you get for a project

1:45:32or the city gets.

1:45:34There's other things environmentally

1:45:36and have come up that weren't there 40 years ago

1:45:40and you have no control over that.

1:45:41You have to do it.

1:45:42But there are other things

1:45:43that you can look at your own process and say,

1:45:45do you need 23 studies to make a complete application

1:45:48or you need 10?

1:45:50Simple as that.

1:45:51Thank you.

1:45:52And just one more question for you.

1:45:54You referred to a couple of locations in the city

1:45:58and the one that I'm thinking of,

1:46:00it's been to the OLT at least twice,

1:46:02thinking maybe three times.

1:46:05So when that happens, there's a negotiated settlement.

1:46:10There's a negotiated agreement that comes out of that.

1:46:13And then there was a big gap in time

1:46:16and then there was something new that was resubmitted

1:46:19and went to the OLT again.

1:46:20So twice it's the developer's resources

1:46:23and also the city's resources to go and negotiate.

1:46:26And the court says, okay, this is what you can do

1:46:29with this property, right?

1:46:31So we have these properties that are sitting there

1:46:34that have a negotiated settlement.

1:46:35And I'm just curious, what would get those shovel ready?

1:46:39And should the province say,

1:46:41whatever concessions you get in that negotiated settlement,

1:46:46you got two years to build or you lose them?

1:46:48Like, is there a piece around when people come out of the OLT

1:46:51that they should proceed them?

1:46:55I don't know how to answer that question.

1:46:57Other than my personal experience

1:46:59on the municipal side of the counter,

1:47:00there was always straight developers,

1:47:05there were builder developers and they were builders.

1:47:09And if you were dealing with a developer,

1:47:10they might go through the process, go to OLT,

1:47:14and get it to a point where the zoning's approved

1:47:17or whatever, and then they would try to market it.

1:47:20But they haven't really looked at,

1:47:21is it now actually marketable?

1:47:23It cannot actually be built.

1:47:25I prefer to do consulting work for builder developers

1:47:28because I know that they're looking at the process

1:47:30and saying, when we acquire a site,

1:47:33we know we're gonna develop it and build it.

1:47:37So I can't comment on the business plan

1:47:40that you're talking about,

1:47:40whether they've gone into every line item to figure out

1:47:43whether it's actually gonna work, I don't know.

1:47:46But that's my take on, is it a developer,

1:47:50is it a developer builder, is it a builder?

1:47:53I appreciate that insight and your comments

1:47:56that we need to be working together

1:47:58because we all want additional housing supply.

1:48:00Okay, I don't see any, oh, okay, Mayor Guthrie.

1:48:04And then Councillor Chew.

1:48:05Yeah, thank you and to you, Madam Chair.

1:48:08To the delegate, can you just explain to me a little bit

1:48:13between the supply, the future years of supply

1:48:21of housing that you have compared to the shovel ready?

1:48:27Your letter alludes to only a couple of years or so

1:48:33of supply of shovel ready.

1:48:36Is that something that you want to make sure is relayed to us

1:48:41because when the market gets better,

1:48:43when the financing gets better,

1:48:44when the materials get better,

1:48:46when the labor gets better, it could be like go time.

1:48:49And you wanna make sure that there is enough supply

1:48:55sort of in the system.

1:48:56Can you explain that a bit more?

1:49:00Sure, Mayor Guthrie, I'll try.

1:49:03If we had 6,000 shovel ready units,

1:49:06and we had a year like we're having now in the market,

1:49:09you're probably gonna see the same level of permitting

1:49:11that you're seeing now.

1:49:13But if we only had the 1,900 units in a boom year,

1:49:19you're gonna have developers builders scrambling

1:49:21to try to get things to the finish line.

1:49:24We wanna have a situation where those 6,000 units

1:49:27are ready and available so that when you have a good year,

1:49:30even though you may only have 800 units this year,

1:49:33you might have 25 units, 2,500 units next year,

1:49:36and you're averaging what the province requires you to do.

1:49:42Okay, thank you very much, appreciate it.

1:49:46Councillor Chew.

1:49:48Thank you, Madam Chair.

1:49:50Just a quick question, just maybe drawing even

1:49:52on your experience when you were a staff member here.

1:49:56During site plan, how did you ensure there's parity

1:49:59and consistency in what you were applying as the convener

1:50:03of reviewing development applications?

1:50:05And what do you think is kind of missing today

1:50:09just being candid here?

1:50:13Well, I'll give you my experience moving to Oakville.

1:50:16When I moved to Oakville for the last five years

1:50:19of my municipal planning experience,

1:50:20I was actually shocked at the number of reports and studies

1:50:25that staff were asking for at site plan.

1:50:28And I challenged some of them to say, why do we need this?

1:50:31Why do you need a full transportation impact study

1:50:34at site plan when you're really only interested

1:50:37in whether or not you need a turn lane or not?

1:50:39And they didn't like me very much at the beginning.

1:50:42I can tell you that right now.

1:50:44But I think you have to challenge to say,

1:50:46is the study actually required at a certain time?

1:50:49And is it, couldn't it be scoped?

1:50:51Should it cost $25,000 or can it cost $5,000?

1:50:56And when I was there, at the beginning I was evil.

1:51:00And by the time I left the Oakville to re-semi-retire,

1:51:04I guess, I had a lot of respect around that table.

1:51:07Because if you're reviewing plans

1:51:10that you really don't have to review,

1:51:12you got more time to work on other things.

1:51:15And just a quick follow up.

1:51:18Like it just sounds to me that there's a bit of subjectivity

1:51:21like from staff side of things.

1:51:22And like how do we like, I guess educate some folks

1:51:28that there are studies that are necessary

1:51:30and there's some studies that maybe there can be

1:51:33some leniency towards because I don't think the expectations,

1:51:36it seems like the expectations are quite clear.

1:51:39And that's something that we would love to clear up

1:51:41if we can, right?

1:51:44Yeah, I think you need to have a dialogue with staff.

1:51:47Everybody that's involved in the development review process,

1:51:51I mean, a lot of times planners understand the process,

1:51:53but traffic guys don't understand it,

1:51:56engineers don't understand it.

1:51:57They don't know where they fit into the process,

1:51:59where they should be reviewing plans

1:52:01and not reviewing plans.

1:52:02And it takes a dialogue.

1:52:04You have to sit down.

1:52:06Okay, yeah, we look forward on your side of things too.

1:52:09As a board member of the Home Builders Association,

1:52:11if we can even get some consistency as well,

1:52:14so that we can play ball as well.

1:52:16Yep.

1:52:21Oh, Councillor Allt.

1:52:26I wasn't going to ask anything.

1:52:28And possibly I have to ask something of staff now

1:52:32because I think it's a point of personal privilege.

1:52:36I'm worried that Councillor Chew used with subjectivity.

1:52:40And I think that staff does need an opportunity

1:52:44to explain how they go about evaluating

1:52:48any sort of a proposal.

1:52:52I think if we leave the wrong impression

1:52:55that staff is subjective in their analysis,

1:52:58I think we might have a legal problem.

1:53:04So are you raising a point of privilege

1:53:08or are you asking questions to staff

1:53:09because we have a delegate?

1:53:11I think it is a point of personal privilege

1:53:12for staff to respond to whether in fact

1:53:16their approach is subjective

1:53:19or whether it is based on objective criteria.

1:53:23I think this is a slippery slope.

1:53:28Sure, I'll allow that.

1:53:32So Ms. Wauke, did you want to respond

1:53:34or to clarify that staff are objective?

1:53:40Yeah, thank you to the chair and through the Councillor.

1:53:43So when an application comes in, staff look at it,

1:53:46we review what's required based on our official plan,

1:53:48which Council has approved and the province has approved.

1:53:51We go through the required documents

1:53:53when an applicant submits a complete application,

1:53:56they respond to our requests.

1:53:57Sometimes they move forward, sometimes they don't.

1:54:00In the past year, we have reviewed

1:54:02what is required at site plan versus what is required

1:54:05at the zoning stage.

1:54:06We have shared that at one of the home builders meetings,

1:54:08the regular check-ins that we have

1:54:11and we have differentiated the level of studies

1:54:14that are required at both.

1:54:17So I do believe that our submission requests

1:54:19are appropriate.

1:54:21Okay, thank you.

1:54:21So that was a bit unusual.

1:54:24Councillor, do you have a question for the delegate?

1:54:26Because I'd really want to finish the delegate.

1:54:28No, I'm fine, I'll leave it at that, thank you.

1:54:31Okay, all right, any more questions for the delegate?

1:54:35Okay, Mr. Hannah, thank you very much.

1:54:38Thanks very much.

1:54:39Ms. Morgan Dandy.

1:54:50Ms. Dandy, you know you get five minutes,

1:54:52you'll hear the time at four minutes and 30 seconds,

1:54:55giving you 30 seconds to complete your remarks.

1:54:58I haven't actually written a delegation for this

1:55:00because I didn't really understand

1:55:01why this was on the agenda,

1:55:03but it's nice to be able to talk about true affordability.

1:55:08One of the things that I found a little bit disturbing

1:55:11in the letter that was submitted by the GWDA

1:55:17is their sentence,

1:55:22further only 315 of these units,

1:55:24plus or minus 6%, are detached or semi-detached wallings.

1:55:28The remaining units are townhouses or apartments.

1:55:30The mix of housing and the inventory

1:55:32is the challenges units in higher density developments,

1:55:35example mid and high rise apartments in 2024

1:55:38are proven to be very difficult to sell.

1:55:42So I'm sorry, developers are having a hard time selling

1:55:47overpriced places.

1:55:50Let's remember that the highest paid CEOs in Canada

1:55:54earn the equivalent of the annual income

1:55:57of average workers in just one morning.

1:56:03To quote again from the 10th class, page 17,

1:56:08the way we talk about a problem matters

1:56:10in housing debates.

1:56:12The key term shaping the conversation is affordability.

1:56:16Everyday phrases include housing affordability crisis,

1:56:20lack of affordable housing,

1:56:21the need for more affordable housing

1:56:23and government investment in affordable housing.

1:56:27These phrases are used to describe both high rents

1:56:31and high house prices.

1:56:34When it comes to high rents,

1:56:35the continuing use of affordability

1:56:38is the way to describe the problem serves, sorry.

1:56:43The continuing use of affordability

1:56:45is the way to describe the problem

1:56:46serves to conceal profit making.

1:56:48It confers an aura of blamelessness to the program,

1:56:52to the problem as if uncontrolled natural forces

1:56:56are driving rents up.

1:56:58The price of rent is not an intrinsic attribute

1:57:02of rental units,

1:57:03but an exogenous factor determined by market relations.

1:57:08What renders rental units unaffordable are landlords

1:57:12who charge too much for them

1:57:13and governments that allow it to happen.

1:57:17One of the things that I think is missing

1:57:20in the conversation about housing affordability

1:57:22when we only look at things from a developer point of view

1:57:27is what ends up happening with rent abictions.

1:57:32Both the federal and the provincial government

1:57:35have pulled out of social housing.

1:57:37And while Wellington County has managed

1:57:42to score all the way enough money

1:57:43to be able to build out in the county,

1:57:46wealth hasn't done the same.

1:57:48So if we're gonna have a conversation

1:57:50about affordability of housing within the city of Guelph,

1:57:55I believe that that conversation

1:57:57does need to include purpose-built rentals.

1:58:01Because if we don't have purpose-built rentals,

1:58:03then affordability can't happen.

1:58:06From page 20, 30% affordability threshold ignores

1:58:10the long-term financial security of tenants.

1:58:13The 20% below market standard for affordable rental units

1:58:17overlooks the housing markets are out of sync

1:58:19with the rest of the economy.

1:58:21The emission of landlords and their profit margins

1:58:23maintains a false veneer of neutrality and housing debates,

1:58:26reinforcing the idea of a technical problem

1:58:29for which no one is to blame.

1:58:31It's not a technical problem.

1:58:33When you take a look at what the actual inflation rate

1:58:37has been over the last 20 years

1:58:40versus what wages have been for the average person

1:58:45over the last 20 years versus how much

1:58:48of somebody's income is required, it's crazy.

1:58:51I looked at my own income just this morning.

1:58:54ODSP had a bump of 4.5% in July.

1:58:59I'm now paying 67% of my income just for shelter.

1:59:05And before I can buy food,

1:59:0881% of my income is gone with my fix

1:59:12because you've got to have your insurances.

1:59:15So when we're talking housing affordability, please,

1:59:19I implore you, look at things from a tenant perspective

1:59:24as well because we are struggling.

1:59:31Thank you very much for your delegation.

1:59:33I'm gonna see if there are any questions.

1:59:37Marigathri has a question.

1:59:39Yes, through you, Madam Chair, to the delegate.

1:59:41Do you know how many millions of dollars the city has given

1:59:44towards affordable housing and supportive housing

1:59:47over the last six years?

1:59:49Not off the top of my head.

1:59:51I have read the reports and I know that it is not

1:59:57to the levels that are required

2:00:02for the affordability of housing to be something

2:00:05that the lowest income individuals can think of

2:00:10in a rental market.

2:00:13So you would agree then that we need to do everything we can

2:00:17to get more supply of affordable, supportive,

2:00:20rankier to income housing in the city of Guelph,

2:00:23no matter what, that should be our focus.

2:00:26If we don't get more truly, not government,

2:00:31not the Ford government definition of affordability,

2:00:36okay, because 80% of rental market, I can't afford it.

2:00:40And neither can anybody else on ODSP,

2:00:43nevermind somebody on OW, and that's not even talking

2:00:47about people that are on OAS, which I'm pushing towards

2:00:53and I am terrified of when I'm on OAS

2:00:56because ODSP gives me a lot more money than OAS does.

2:01:02So if you don't have those that are at the lowest levels

2:01:08of income involved in the conversation

2:01:12as to what affordability is, you're missing out

2:01:15and there's more and more and more of us

2:01:18that are falling into this through no fault of our own.

2:01:22This includes seniors.

2:01:25We need to have more seniors involved in this conversation

2:01:29because more and more of them are becoming

2:01:31more and more vulnerable.

2:01:34And if you've got to renew your mortgage

2:01:37and you're on a fixed income, if for some reason

2:01:40you've had to remortgage your home

2:01:41in order to help your child, like Mayor Guthrie,

2:01:45I know that your children are at a point

2:01:47where they are starting to think about

2:01:49maybe being able to live on their own,

2:01:52maybe thinking about saving up for a home.

2:01:55What happens if you end up lending them some money

2:01:59by remortgaging your home

2:02:02so they can have a home of their own

2:02:04and then you can't afford anything?

2:02:06Maybe Madam Chair, we can not bring my family

2:02:08into the discussion.

2:02:10So Mayor Guthrie.

2:02:11I don't find that to be appropriate.

2:02:13But just as a closing statement to the delegate,

2:02:16the province does not use the 80% anymore.

2:02:19That was changed.

2:02:20It's now 30% of income.

2:02:24Sorry, Mayor Guthrie.

2:02:25Do you have a question for the delegate?

2:02:27And I just want to call to you.

2:02:28Our procedural by-law really does stipulate

2:02:30that we're not intended to debate with the delegates.

2:02:33I'm not debating.

2:02:34I just want to make sure that this delegate knew

2:02:36that that had been changed by the province.

2:02:38I didn't want her to walk away knowing that

2:02:40that that was the details that she thought.

2:02:43I thought it would help her.

2:02:46Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

2:02:48Thank you, Ms. Dandy.

2:02:52Thank you.

2:02:58So we'll go to questions to staff.

2:03:00Yes, Madam Chair, I have a question to,

2:03:04I'm not sure if it's Christia or Jason,

2:03:06but so Mr. Hannah has asked for the inclusion of shovel ready.

2:03:14First, is that appropriate in our monitoring reports,

2:03:19the way we're supposed to be doing them?

2:03:21And like, would it take staff time?

2:03:24And just your thoughts on the requests that we have there.

2:03:28They also asked that we change our language,

2:03:30which I have no trouble doing with,

2:03:33but I'll ask you about that later.

2:03:38Through the chair to the counselor.

2:03:40So shovel ready, if it is indicated

2:03:43that it has site plan approval is difficult.

2:03:45Site plan approval is a moment in time.

2:03:48We report annually, so on December 31st,

2:03:51if we pull data at a time,

2:03:53the report's actually published

2:03:54and we get the data from MPAC and others,

2:03:57the report, that information would be gone

2:03:59and probably hopefully those buildings

2:04:01would actually have building permits

2:04:03by the time that happens.

2:04:04So shovel ready, if it's site plan approval

2:04:06is difficult in time.

2:04:09Our thoughts are within that three year short-term supply

2:04:12that there is the ability for the ones we've identified

2:04:14that could receive site plan approval

2:04:17and a building permit within that three years.

2:04:20So this is doable, you think,

2:04:22is it just too difficult because of the timelines

2:04:25that we have?

2:04:27Yeah, for us, I think it's difficult

2:04:29for the timelines that we have.

2:04:32Next year when we work on the report,

2:04:34we'll certainly have the working sessions

2:04:36that Jason had with the board members again

2:04:40and go through it and in the report this year,

2:04:42we have identified the individual ones

2:04:44that maybe had a holding provision or other constraints.

2:04:48Often they were identified

2:04:50because we felt they could be resolved

2:04:52within the three year window.

2:04:55Those that may not be able to be resolved,

2:04:57we have not included.

2:04:58So I think we can work with them

2:05:00and bring back something that maybe addresses

2:05:02both a little bit more

2:05:04by recognizing the short-term supply requirement

2:05:08of reporting that we do have.

2:05:09So you mean sort of adding more detail around

2:05:12what you've already added this year,

2:05:13just sort of making that more fulsome for next year?

2:05:17That would be good.

2:05:19And around the language that we use,

2:05:22and I think it's mostly political,

2:05:25but I mean, you are working with the

2:05:29the growth development community

2:05:30to bring these 6,000 units online.

2:05:35So that's true.

2:05:36Is that how you would interpret it?

2:05:42Through the chair to the counselor,

2:05:44probably no one wants these units brought online

2:05:47more than I do at this point in time.

2:05:51Okay.

2:05:52Okay.

2:05:53We'll leave it at that.

2:05:55Thank you, Councillor Downer.

2:05:56I've got Councillor Billings and then Councillor Bustel.

2:05:59Through you, Madam Chair.

2:06:00The other request was just that it be brought forward.

2:06:04They're asking for a regular council agenda.

2:06:07I don't really see a problem with that.

2:06:09So I just wanted to ask staff

2:06:11who were brought forward and placed on Cal

2:06:14and just be to receive.

2:06:15So does staff have any issue with that request?

2:06:20Through the mayor to the the counselor,

2:06:21we have no concerns with bringing it forward

2:06:23to a council report.

2:06:24Okay.

2:06:25Thank you, Christa.

2:06:28Councillor Bustel.

2:06:29Thank you.

2:06:30And through the chair, just curiosity here

2:06:33around shuffle ready.

2:06:34Is that a term that's used throughout planning

2:06:38provincially and so on?

2:06:39I know I've read other municipal reports.

2:06:41Is that language that is kind of consistent

2:06:43with the planning shuffle ready apples and apples,

2:06:47apples and oranges.

2:06:48Can you just speak to that?

2:06:51Yeah, through the chair to the council.

2:06:52So shovel ready is a term.

2:06:54A lot of projects are funded if they're shovel ready.

2:06:57So it is a term that is used in the industry.

2:07:01Thank you.

2:07:04I have a few questions.

2:07:05I just want to see if anybody else does.

2:07:08All right.

2:07:11So Ms. Wacky, I'm just curious in terms

2:07:13of shovel ready, if it means like there's,

2:07:16the brownfield's been cleaned up

2:07:18or they've met holding provision

2:07:22or they have their funding in place.

2:07:25Could the city even monitor that?

2:07:27And would the expectation be that the city

2:07:29would be checking in with the developers

2:07:31on the properties that were available?

2:07:34And then how would you know if they were properties

2:07:38that under the new comprehensive zoning by-law

2:07:40already had the approvals in place?

2:07:42So I'm just wondering from a mechanics point of view,

2:07:46what that might look like, what that request is,

2:07:49is that a request that's even feasible

2:07:51for the part of the city?

2:07:53Or is that something that the home builders

2:07:55and developers could do?

2:07:59Yeah, thank you chair.

2:08:00So we can certainly report on what have holding provisions

2:08:03or what are subject to maybe a brownfield report,

2:08:08but we do not control financing or agreements

2:08:12between two developers who may have adjacent sites.

2:08:15So that is in the hands of the development community.

2:08:18When we meet next year, we can maybe fine tune it

2:08:21a little bit, but some of those items

2:08:22are certainly out of our control and out of our influence.

2:08:27And just a reminder to council,

2:08:28the units that are in this report are ones

2:08:31that have in a subdivision or zoned or draft approved,

2:08:36but they're not all the units

2:08:38that encompass our annual building permits.

2:08:39So I just want to make sure that's clear too.

2:08:42Earlier we were talking about accessory dwelling units,

2:08:45for example, accessory dwelling units

2:08:47are not included in this report.

2:08:49And in the past three years,

2:08:51we've been 20 to 25% accessory dwelling units.

2:08:54This year we're in the 40% range of accessory

2:08:58dwelling units, so that's not included in our housing supply.

2:09:00So every building that permit that's issued

2:09:03is not necessarily in these numbers that we report on.

2:09:09Thank you.

2:09:10And I'm just curious with respect to,

2:09:13who would be able to even say what shovel ready is,

2:09:17is the city open to working with the developers

2:09:21to say that this is the number of units approved,

2:09:26and then these are the ones that feel

2:09:29could come online in the next year.

2:09:31Is that an ongoing conversation?

2:09:32I have no problem clarifying that funnel,

2:09:35basically, that's described in the letter.

2:09:38Is that something we're open to?

2:09:41To the chair, yes, we are.

2:09:44Okay, and then I just want to shift gears for a second

2:09:47to ask about the affordability part of this report.

2:09:51So we've talked about what is shovel ready, what is not.

2:09:54There were financial implications

2:09:56that were outlined in the report.

2:09:57So I just want to understand.

2:10:00Federal government has waived the HST

2:10:03on purpose built rentals.

2:10:04I believe the province has waived the PST

2:10:06on the purpose built rentals.

2:10:08And then we grant DC exemptions

2:10:10for purpose built rentals, right?

2:10:13So then what is built will be a building

2:10:16that's occupied after 2018,

2:10:19and to which there's no rent control on those units.

2:10:24So is there a mechanism?

2:10:26There's a lot of public subsidization

2:10:29for these units or incentives for these units

2:10:32to come online and we need them in growth.

2:10:33We have very, very low purpose built rental.

2:10:37But how does that work to make sure those units

2:10:42are actually affordable?

2:10:44And there's a note in the report

2:10:46that just talks about an agreement

2:10:48to have them remain affordable for 25 years.

2:10:50So I'm just wondering, is there a mechanism

2:10:53to pass those savings along to that first time renter

2:10:56or that first time condo owner?

2:10:58Well, it's for purpose built rental.

2:11:00So it's first time renter.

2:11:02And how do we know those units stay affordable?

2:11:09Thank you, Chair.

2:11:10I might start on some of this

2:11:11and then maybe pass it to our finance folks

2:11:13for some of those specific questions as well.

2:11:16So if the application for affordable housing

2:11:18was subject to CMHC funding,

2:11:20then there's agreements in place for 20 years.

2:11:23So we do have some of those in wealth,

2:11:27but often when we have developments come to council

2:11:29and they say they're gonna be affordable,

2:11:32we have no control over that.

2:11:33So recently the provincial has a housing bulletin,

2:11:39what is it affordable in wealth?

2:11:41But we have no control over if someone meets that or not.

2:11:46We do our best to report on it,

2:11:48but we cannot require it as part of a development application.

2:11:53What you're gonna be seeing coming later this year

2:11:56are some financial incentives

2:11:59because of the money we received

2:12:00from the Housing Accelerator Fund

2:12:02that could have time commitments to affordability

2:12:05in which we could dictate through legal agreements

2:12:10that are registered on title,

2:12:11the amount of affordability that is required

2:12:13and the timeframe in which it is required.

2:12:16But at this point in time,

2:12:17other than if it's a CMHC funded project,

2:12:20the city has no control over what the ultimate rents

2:12:24are that are charged.

2:12:27Okay, thanks very much.

2:12:31Okay, I don't see any more questions.

2:12:34There is no motion, but we're speaking to it.

2:12:39Mr. Clerk, do I need to move receipt?

2:12:42We just close the conversation.

2:12:45Okay, thank you very much.

2:12:46It's a good discussion

2:12:49and it's one that we're going to continue to have over time,

2:12:52I'm sure, and where everyone's best intentions lie

2:12:55in terms of getting more units on board.

2:12:57So thank you, Mr. Hannah for your delegation

2:13:00and Ms. Hannah as well.

2:13:04Okay, are there any service area chair

2:13:07and staff announcements?

2:13:09Seeing none, I need a motion to adjourn.

2:13:13Councillor Billings, seconded by Mayor Guthrie.

2:13:15Is anybody opposed to the motion to adjourn?

2:13:19Nope, that's unanimous.

2:13:20Thank you very much.