City Council

7:17I'm going to start in a minute but just in case anyone is wondering why I am chairing

7:22the meeting this evening, Councillors are assigned a month of acting duties on behalf

7:28of the mayor while the mayor is away. It's been my honour to represent the mayor and

7:34the city for the month of September so no, there has not been a coup.

9:27Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I would like to officially call to order the Tuesday

9:31September 26, 2023, Guelph City Council meeting. Thank you for joining us this evening.

9:38First off, we have a closed meeting agenda for council's consideration. The item is listed

9:45on the open agenda that we will be considering. Item 3.4, non-union, municipal employee multi-year

9:53compensation increase. Before we proceed, is there any disclosure of pecuniary interest

9:59and general nature thereof on the item before us for closed session? Seeing none. So this

10:09item will be considered under section 238, subsection 2B and D of the municipal act related

10:16to personal matters about an identifiable individual, including municipal or local board employees

10:23and labour relations or employee negotiations. I am looking for a motion to direct council

10:29to move into closed session for the item listed on the agenda. I have got Councillor

10:34Ault moved and Councillor Richardson seconded. Is there any discussion on this matter? Seeing

10:42none, I would like to call the vote. Is anyone opposed to moving into closed session for discussion

10:48of the stated item? Seeing none, I would say that's unanimous and so we will be stepping

10:57aside to have this conversation. And then when I come back, I will be kind of high level

11:05sharing of what was discussed in closed session. Thank you. Thank you. I would like to call

45:03the meeting to order. I am going to provide a closed meeting summary. As you know, we just

45:11came in from item 3.4 on the open agenda, the non-union municipal employee multi-year

45:18compensation increase. We considered a report from staff for the non-union management compensation

45:26as we head into the multi-year budget process. There is a rise in report resolution and Mayor

45:34Guthrie all the way from Copenhagen, the resolution I believe will be going up onto the screen

45:41and that resolution was seconded by Councillor Allt. Mayor Guthrie, whenever you are ready.

45:47Thank you, Madam Chair. Excuse me. And through you, that the annual non-union total compensation

45:54adjustment be set within a range of not less than 2% and not more than 3% for 2024 and each

46:01year thereafter in the 2024 to 2027 multi-year budget. Thank you.

46:09Is there any discussion on this item? Seeing none, I'm going to call the vote. Is there

46:15anyone opposed? Seeing none, that carries. Thank you. The next item is disclosure of

46:26pecuniary interest and general nature thereof on items on the open agenda before us this

46:32evening. I do not see any declarations. Now we're going to go to the refresh territorial

46:42acknowledgement. May I please have a Councillor move and second the recommendation. Councillor

46:49Ault and Councillor Oroch, thank you. Is there any discussion on this item? Seeing none,

46:58I'm going to call the vote. Is anyone opposed? Seeing none, that's unanimous. Thank you.

47:07On behalf of council, I'd really like to thank our indigenous partners, community members

47:13and staff who came together to work long and hard on this updated territorial acknowledgement,

47:20keeping it a living document. So thank you again. Now if you're able, please stand for

47:26our national anthem. Thank you. If we could take a minute for silent reflection, please.

49:15Thank you. I'm honored to read the refresh territorial acknowledgement. As we gather,

49:21let us take time to reflect on our privilege to work and live in Guelph, a city built over

49:27rich indigenous histories. We are guests here and we should reflect upon the responsibility

49:33to care for this land, the people who live here today and the generations to come. If

49:39our actions today can move us towards reconciliation, we should take pause and make those decisions

49:46with intention and gratitude. This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands

49:52and a place of refuge for many peoples over time, but more specifically, the Attawanderak

49:59and the Haudenosaunee. This land is held as the treaty lands in territory with the Mississaugas

50:06of the Credit First Nation. Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman Tract and is part

50:13of a long established traditional hunting ground for the six nations of the Grand River.

50:19Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples who have come from across Turtle Island called

50:24Guelph home today. Next on the item, we're on 7.0. May I please have a Councillor move

50:35in second, the minutes of the open council meeting, minutes held June 27th, July 5th,

50:43July 19th, July 25th, and the minutes of the open committee of the whole meeting held July

50:495th, 2023, that they be confirmed as recorded and without being read. If I can have a mover

50:55please. Councillor Oroch, seconded by Councillor Klosson. Is there any discussion on any of

51:01those items? Seeing none, I'm going to call the vote. Is there anyone opposed? Seeing none,

51:12that carries. Thank you. Item 8 is the committee of the whole consent agenda. We have two items

51:18and I would like to check in to see if our council would like any pulled. Councillor Oroch,

51:23which item? Thank you, Chair. I just have a quick question on 8.1, the eighth motion, but I'm

51:33hesitant because I don't want staff to have to stay till the end of the evening. Just a quick

51:37question. Thank you. Why don't we take that question then if it's a quick question? Thank you,

51:44Chair. Through you to staff, just the documentation around recruitment, hiring, and involuntary

51:50departure procedures for municipalities has no reference to the city's internal auditor.

51:56The internal auditor is really the sole person who reports directly to council and really is an

52:03important person for us in order to be able to validate. I'm just wondering if staff can let us

52:10know under the new strong mayor's powers, what is the mayor's responsibility in terms of hiring or

52:17firing an internal auditor? I'm just trying to understand what happens with this person because

52:23it isn't a very important function. Sure. Through you, Chair, to Councillor Oroch, as the legislation

52:32sets out and as the City of Guelph has a general manager of internal audit, that person is not

52:38identified in the legislation and thus the legislation of protected people, as you may

52:43generally think of it, does not apply to the city's general manager of audit.

52:48Perhaps the clerk has anything to add? Thank you, Ms. Sales. Through you, Madam Chair, the only

52:55thing I would add is again, there is a list of positions within the new section in the act that

52:59is relating to the updated authority for heads of council. It does list an auditor general. It's

53:05nuanced, slightly different than the internal auditor sort of structure that we have. Yes,

53:10the internal auditor in our current arrangement does report to council, has a sort of a dotted

53:15line administrative reporting relationship to the CAO from a structure standpoint, but obviously does

53:19report and is sort of beholden to council in that regard. There are a series of other statutory

53:24positions that do have legislated and statutory responsibilities directly to council, things

53:29like City Treasurer as an example. But in the contemplation of the way the act is written

53:34with that new section to Ms. Sales point, it does not explicitly list an internal auditor,

53:39and the auditor general function is one that we see in very few other Ontario municipalities,

53:44namely the larger municipalities in Ontario, Toronto and Ottawa being the ones that come

53:48to mind off the top of my head. Okay, thank you, Chair Beacot. Thank you. Is there any

53:55Council that would like to pull item 8.2, Council and Committee meeting schedule? Seeing none,

54:03can I have a Councillor move and second, 8.1 recommendations and 8.2 recommendations? I see

54:09Councillor Downer and Councillor Billings. I assume that you are moving and seconding? Yes,

54:16thank you. Is there any further to either of these items? Seeing none, I'm going to call the vote.

54:24Is anyone opposed? That carries. That's unanimous. Thank you. Item 9, items for discussing,

54:33discussion. So this item, the first item is the Heritage Guelph Resolution regarding the

54:38Ontario Reformatory Stone Wall. I'm going to ask Councillor Downer to speak to this item,

54:44and then after the delegations, I'll turn to Councillor Downer to ask you to place the recommendation

54:50if you could do that. So go ahead, Councillor Downer. Thanks, Chair Grisichel.

54:55So at the Heritage Guelph meeting earlier this month, this motion came forward to request the

55:05Council, request that infrastructure Ontario to restore the wall that was recently damaged.

55:15There's some question. A lot of people do not believe that it was done by,

55:25was done through natural erosion, but was done actually through the, through vandalism. So,

55:36but I mean, you know, that's, so to be determined, but you know, I think that can be determined. And

55:42we can ask them to restore the wall to the way it was. Thank you. So we have three delegations on

55:51this item. If you're here in person, I'm going to call up Susan Ratcliffe, please, first, if you

55:57would like to come up to the front. You have five minutes for your presentation. There will be a chime

56:04signal at the 32nd mark and a chime to signal the end of your delegation time. Susan, if you can

56:10then just remain there in case any Councillors have any questions of clarifying nature to your

56:17presentation. So as soon as you start the clerks will start the clock.

56:26Mr. Mayor, far away, Ms. Acting Mayor and members of City Council, the poet Robert Frost has

56:34important words to consider in his poem, Mending Wall. Something there is that doesn't love a wall,

56:43that sends the frozen groundswell under it and spills the upper boulders in the sun

56:49and makes gaps even to compass. The gaps, I mean, no one has seen them made or heard them made.

56:58Something there is that doesn't love a wall that wants it down. I could say elves to my neighbor,

57:05but it's not elves exactly. And I'd rather he said it for himself.

57:10Infrastructure Ontario would have us believe that if not elves, then Mother Nature has suddenly

57:17decided that she does not love that particular four metres of stone wall that has stood in its

57:23place for at least 103 years. Perhaps a freak storm struck those four metres. Perhaps it was the

57:31finger of God that pushed it over. Robert's Frost's suggestions of elves wanting to wall

57:39down may be the best one after all. We have seen this pattern before from infrastructure Ontario.

57:47The large stone chimney has to come down because it has some damage. The trestle bridge has to come

57:53down because it has a broken bit. And now a solid stone wall has fallen over by itself

57:59and scattered itself all over the ground. Oh, and too bad about those Indigenous paintings left

58:06to rot for 21 years. They are probably only graffiti after all, and so we don't need to save them either.

58:13It is interesting that the infrastructure Ontario spokesperson who rejected the Indigenous

58:20paintings as unsalvageable graffiti is the same spokesperson who called the damage to the wall

58:28natural erosion. I support Councillor Downer's resolution because at some point we have to call

58:39the provincial government on their 22-year neglect of this amazing property and ask them to make it

58:46right. All of these elements have been identified by the HCD study as worthy of designation and

58:53preservation because they are outstanding features of a landscape that is unique in Canada.

59:00I lead the walks for the stone structures on the York, on behalf of the York lands. I'm a member

59:07of the York lands board and visitors are always amazed and love to take selfies at those walls.

59:14And I believe that you as City Council must urge the provincial government to do their part to

59:20preserve and restore this landscape. The walls were built by young men who were doing the job

59:27to train and prepare themselves for a better future. We honour their legacy by preserving their hard

59:34work. We benefit our city present and future by keeping this landscape in its structure in good

59:41shape. Because of their unique features they will provide our citizens with a beautiful landscape

59:47for recreation. And again because of these unique features visitors will bring tourism dollars to

59:54our city. As Robert said, something there is, Robert Frost said, something there is that does not love

1:00:01a wall and wants it down. Let's show that the City of Guelph wants this wall and wants it up again.

1:00:10Thank you. Thank you. Are there any questions from Council for Ms. Ratcliffe?

1:00:19Seeing none, thank you very much. Next I have Lynn Vestari. Same thing, if you would like to come

1:00:29down you have five minutes for your presentation. There will be a chime at the 32nd mark and a chime

1:00:35to signal the end of your delegation time. And if you could just remain at the end for any questions

1:00:42from Council. Welcome. Thank you. Mr. Mayor and City Councilors, I'm here today to talk about the

1:00:55collapse walls at the former Correctional Centre Ontario Formatory Lands. I am the current Chair

1:01:02of York Lands Green Hub and come as a representative to speak with you all. At this point in time is

1:01:08there is no conclusive evidence that it was an occurrence of vandalism or if it was a natural

1:01:14event. There are different opinions on that. To our knowledge no formal assessments of the

1:01:21damages have occurred to determine the cause. However, given that these field stone walls have

1:01:27stood there for most of the last 100 years or over 103 years actually, there are a very unique

1:01:34heritage feature that exists within the city limits. From my understanding the longest known

1:01:40field stone wall in Ontario. The other significant stone wall site is on Amherst Island near Kingston.

1:01:49The island won the Lieutenant General Award for Heritage Conservation in 2015 with the drystone

1:01:56festivals that helped to preserve the walls and also received a significant tourism

1:02:01dollars from the Ontario Tourism Development Fund, exactly $73,000 to make the island a heritage

1:02:11tourist destination. If the City of Guel formally asks Infrastructure Ontario as part of their duty

1:02:19of care for the property to secure funds for the reparations of the wall, it could become an

1:02:25opportunity for the City in partnership with York Lands Green Hub and Infrastructure Ontario

1:02:30to hold a drystone building festival in collaboration with Drystone Canada who organizes them.

1:02:38This would present a great opportunity for a large tourist attraction for Guelph over several days.

1:02:47I am in support of Councillor Downey's motion. Please. Thank you. Thank you very much. If you

1:02:56could just remain. Are there any questions of a clarifying nature of the presentation for the

1:03:02delegation? Seeing none, thank you very much. Thank you. Next I'm going to call on John Fisher,

1:03:13not that you don't know the instructions just in case. Five minutes for your presentation.

1:03:18There'll be a chime at the 32nd mark and then a chime to signal the end. And John,

1:03:23if you can please just stay at the end. Okay, thank you.

1:03:32To the Mayor, the Acting Mayor, Councillors and City staff,

1:03:34my name is John Fisher. I'm the President of the Guelph Hiking Trail Club.

1:03:40The club has license agreements with Infrastructure Ontario and Fusion Homes

1:03:45to manage and maintain trails on land that they own on both sides of the Aramosa River.

1:03:54We want to thank Councillor Downey for continued support of heritage properties in the City.

1:04:00We also thank past and present members of the Heritage Committee for their work,

1:04:05particularly on the OR file. The Guelph Hiking Club supports this resolution,

1:04:11but feels it may need to go further. We thought it might be helpful to share the club's bridge

1:04:17experience in considering this resolution, which requests IO repair the damaged stone wall.

1:04:24The club worked actively with IO to reach an agreement to repair and repurpose the historic

1:04:30Woodin-Tressel Railway Bridge as a pedestrian cyclist connection to link the OR and GID properties.

1:04:38In 2022, the club applied for federal active transportation and tourism relief grounds

1:04:45to repair the bridge. We secured letters of support for our applications from the Mayor,

1:04:52Property Owners Fusion Chamber of Commerce. One of those letters was from Mike Shreiner,

1:04:59MPP for Guelph, who wrote directly to the President and CEO of Infrastructure Ontario, Mike Lindsay.

1:05:09On April 6, 2022, Mike Shreiner received a reply from President Lindsay, which included this paragraph.

1:05:19There is no Ministry Program requirement or need for the decommissioned bridge,

1:05:28and therefore no available provincial funding for restoration or future maintenance.

1:05:34However, IO does appreciate the community's interest in the Woodin-Tressel Bridge,

1:05:41and if the GHTC's funding application is successful, we'll continue to work closely

1:05:47with the GHCC in support of their efforts. This reply is entirely consistent with the IO mandate

1:05:56to mitigate liability on behalf of the province. They don't restore. But CEO and President Lindsay

1:06:03also said, show me the money and we will work with you. One positive thing you can say about IO

1:06:12is they don't send out mixed messages about the fate of iconic features on their property.

1:06:19Their position is clear and transparent. Things may have changed over the last 18 months

1:06:25between IO and the city. In March 2023, Council unanimously passed this motion.

1:06:34The staff continued discussions with Infrastructure Ontario regarding options for conservation of the

1:06:41Tressel Bridge on the reformatory property and report back to Council. At this point,

1:06:49I don't know what conservation options have been presented for Council to consider.

1:06:56I do know a decision to include restoring the wall and the bridge in the upcoming multi-year

1:07:03budget would have huge community and organizational support, and I urge Council to make sure they

1:07:10are included. Thank you. Are there any questions for Mr. Fisher? Seeing none, thank you very much.

1:07:21Now I'd like to call on Councillor Downer to place the recommendation and then I'll look for a

1:07:26seconder. Okay, I would ask staff to put up the motion that City Council request the Infrastructure

1:07:32Ontario repair the damaged dome wall at the Ontario reformatory. Of course, making this work

1:07:38request will initiate some discussions as well as has done with the Tressel Bridge and my

1:07:47understanding that's ongoing. So I appreciate what Mr. Fisher has said and that's something for us to

1:07:56consider a budget time or one screen from Infrastructure Ontario. Thank you. I saw

1:08:04Councillor Caron. I wasn't sure. Are you seconding the motion? Yes, thank you. Councillor, did you

1:08:09want to speak to that at all? I treat Infrastructure Ontario as a property owner as we would treat

1:08:19any property owner and if we have an identified heritage feature, a cultural asset, on any property

1:08:25in the City of Guelph, we would expect a duty of care and stewardship and in the event that

1:08:32a cultural heritage asset was destroyed in any way or compromised in any way,

1:08:37we would ask for it to be repaired. So this treats everyone equally and IO has a responsibility

1:08:45to the people of Ontario to protect our assets. That's a bad example if they don't, so happy to

1:08:50support the motion. Thank you. Councillor Caton, I saw your hand. I wasn't sure if that's for

1:08:55comments or seconding. It was for seconding, but if you're going for comments then I can do that.

1:09:01Thank you. It's through you, Chair. I definitely support this. This is a very important heritage

1:09:09piece in Ward 1. If you've ever walked through, it's like going through Hobbit land with all of the

1:09:16walls and the stone. It's really quite gorgeous, so if you've not been yet, then I highly recommend

1:09:21it because this is something that we should definitely get them to preserve and potentially,

1:09:27if they don't want to, they can always give us the property and then we can maintain it.

1:09:31That would be great too. Thank you. Thank you. I know I'm mixing comments and questions.

1:09:38Councillor Allt. Thank you very much, Chair Busuttil. I think I will second Councillor Caton's

1:09:44motion to require the province to give us that land. I think that's a great motion.

1:09:51With regards to this particular motion though, and quite a serious vein, I think that it's very

1:09:56important that we do show that this land matters to Guelph residents. Historically, this land, no

1:10:03joke, has been land upon which many people have got their wedding pictures taken. I always thought

1:10:10that it was somewhat ironic that people were getting them done in front of a reformatory,

1:10:14but nonetheless they were the most beautiful lands in Guelph. Similarly, there have been many people

1:10:19that have been working very strongly on behalf of preserving the York lands. I think that this

1:10:25requires council to stand behind the community of Guelph and show that not just the buildings,

1:10:32but every blade of grass and every stone and every stone post matters.

1:10:39Thank you. Is there anything further on this item? Mayor Guthrie?

1:10:49I just had a question. It looks like this is the direction here in the recommendation

1:10:59it doesn't specifically state like the mayor to write the letter and it doesn't specifically state

1:11:05that the administration write the letter. I was just wondering what the mover wanted to do.

1:11:14There is is it fully left with like intergovernmental to send a letter or would you like me to do it?

1:11:23Councillor Downer? I would actually ask staff. Thank you. Good question. What is the better protocol

1:11:38for this, whether it would be from the mayor and the administration or just through the

1:11:44intergovernmental? Through the chair to Councillor Downer, intergovernmental staff will likely

1:11:52reach out personally to make a connection to the folks at IO before we send the letter and get

1:11:57some guidance from them about who it is most appropriately best directed to and based on that

1:12:02we will make a decision on whether or not it is best to come from staff or from the mayor.

1:12:07So if you leave that with us, we are happy to navigate that with IO.

1:12:11Thank you. Is that okay? Councillor? Mayor Guthrie?

1:12:17That is fine. I personally would like to write the letter because it has a little bit more

1:12:25oomph to it that it is coming from council and I am the head of council. It might be an opportunity

1:12:31for me if there is advocacy work in the future, like if I run by somebody at the province about

1:12:38the issue, then it is an easier door open for me to say like, hey, I sent you a letter.

1:12:45So I just would mind that but I will leave it up to intergovernmental to decide.

1:12:51But my second question and my last question is, do you think that there is some validity in

1:12:56including the part about the dry stone tourism sort of opportunity? Because I think that is a

1:13:04great idea and maybe could that please be embedded into the letter? Yeah, through the

1:13:14chair to the mayor, we are happy to take that direction and include it in the letter. No problem.

1:13:19All right. I am not suggesting we have to do a motion about it but I think it is a good idea.

1:13:23So I thought I would just throw it out there. Okay. That is all my comments. I am supportive.

1:13:27Thank you. Thank you. Any further comments or discussion? Seeing none, I am going to call the

1:13:35vote. Is anyone opposed to the recommendation? That carries unanimously. Thank you. The next

1:13:43item is the downtown parking master plan. I would like to acknowledge that the staff prepared a

1:13:49memo with some additional information from our last meeting with some additional information

1:13:53in response to questions that were raised by council. It is included in the package as item

1:13:599.2.1. And I would like to invite DCAO homes to provide any other kinds of comments or highlights

1:14:10about that report so that we are all aware of that. Thank you, Madam Chair. If you

1:14:17wouldn't mind indulging us just for a few minutes, we will have Mr. Zettle, the author of the memo,

1:14:23just to give you a high level update on the contents. Thank you, Madam Chair, for this

1:14:45opportunity. The downtown parking master plan reimagines how parking intersects with housing.

1:14:54It offers new zoning requirements, innovative programs to support residential development

1:14:59through a payment in lieu of parking policy, and advances the city's modal shift targets

1:15:06by encouraging transportation demand measures to further reduce parking requirements.

1:15:13This master plan supports and accelerates housing starts by supporting more housing being built

1:15:18downtown on previously locked sites and by acknowledging varying and different site conditions

1:15:25with less focus on traditional ways of delivering parking to residents.

1:15:31Staff support a reduction in the residential development parking rate from one space per unit

1:15:39to 0.85 spaces per unit. Based on utilization studies downtown and comparisons with other

1:15:48municipalities, this recommendation is a 15% reduction in the number of required spaces

1:15:55currently enforced in the zoning bylaw. This recommendation, however, does not stand in isolation.

1:16:04The master plan offers a toolkit to developers to reduce the required parking on their sites.

1:16:11First, with this zoning amendment, and second, by accessing the payment in lieu of parking program,

1:16:18which not only significantly reduces the cost to the developer to supply parking,

1:16:24but also envisions site specific and housing type exemptions, which can further reduce the required spots.

1:16:36Finally, developers who include TDM measures in their proposals, or who include affordable housing

1:16:44units in their developments can further reduce their parking requirement.

1:16:49This toolkit of options, if accessed across all of its dimensions, can reduce the parking rate

1:16:57from 0.85 to a rate much lower. At Committee of the Whole, Council began to consider a range of

1:17:06outcomes and changes to the zoning bylaw and the residential development parking rate.

1:17:13The Council memo presented in advance of today's meeting raised several important

1:17:18cautions for Council's consideration. Strategically embedding transportation

1:17:26demand management measures into residential developments advances the city's modal shift targets.

1:17:34Support for an expanded transit system will further help reduce the demand for the city.

1:17:44Future demand on the city's parking supply is uncertain, as staff do not yet know the impact

1:17:54of coming developments, including Conestoga College. Reduced parking rates could trigger increased

1:18:01demand on the public system. Finally, the payment in lieu of parking program is a key component

1:18:09to fund future capital projects while reducing the investment from taxpayers.

1:18:16The further Council reduces the recommended 0.85 parking rate, the greater likelihood

1:18:26the risks identified in the memo will occur. As previously noted, staff will return in five years,

1:18:36having assessed the impact of the planned introduction of all-day two-way ghost train

1:18:41service, the arrival and expansion of the Conestoga College campus, and the impact of the

1:18:49downtown infrastructure renewal projects. At that time, staff will review the residential parking rate.

1:18:57Finally, and in conclusion, it is the recommendation of staff that in the

1:19:03review, it is the recommendation of staff that any deviation from the recommended 0.85

1:19:09parking rate should require another statutory public meeting. Thank you for these brief comments.

1:19:17Thank you. We're going to move to the delegations. We have one video delegation, Jonathan Westind.

1:19:31Waiting to see if he's there. Hi, Jonathan. Can you hear me okay?

1:19:38Yes. Okay, wonderful. So you have five minutes for your delegation. There will be a chime when

1:19:4530 seconds is left to your time and then another chime at the end of your time. If you can stay on

1:19:52the line in case any city councillors have questions of a clarifying nature for your presentation.

1:19:58The timer will start as soon as you start your presentation. Can I get you to turn your speaker

1:20:02up a bit more? Can you hear me now? Much better. Thank you. Thank you, chair and Mr. Mayor and

1:20:13council for the opportunity to speak. As you may know, I'm representing Windmill Development,

1:20:21which is driving the Baker Street Development downtown. Parking has been a very critical thing

1:20:30in our driving of a plan and affordability and other things. We're working there. I applaud the

1:20:37direction that the staff is taking. I just wanted to share our current experience in other municipalities

1:20:45and experience with mandated parking versus more driven by developer. When I just came back from

1:20:56Europe and Sweden, you find your time there is never really spending much time in a car. You're

1:21:03on a bike, you're on transit, you're walking around. The downtown cores are very vibrant and

1:21:07central. You wonder why that is and fundamentally it's more because of their history they had to,

1:21:13but their cities were designed not around the car but around the pedestrian. We in North America

1:21:21took a path that designed our cities around a car, which I believe if we follow the patterns that

1:21:28are happening across North America, we're starting to understand the negative impacts of that and

1:21:34trying to design our cities so that as much as we can, people don't need cars. Guelph is one of

1:21:41like a wonderful, vibrant downtown. We're planning to bring 350 units, ideally 700 residents downtown,

1:21:50and our job, particularly we're promoting lifestyles that let people live within the resources of

1:21:56one planet. One of the critical things for us to do is to show people you can live a great life

1:22:02and not be in a car. To do that, and that's where downtown Qualpa has everything out

1:22:08its front door. It's something where we want to be investing the money on car share, bike share,

1:22:15transit, other things that give those alternatives to people to not need a car. The more we are

1:22:22sort of told or require a certain amount of parking stalls, the more we're stuck kind of saying,

1:22:28no, you got to buy a parking stall. You got to use a parking stall because we have it. It's one of

1:22:32the most expensive things that we have to build and it limits our ability to do other things.

1:22:39Our biggest concern has been in other municipalities where we've been able to work in a more

1:22:44in a collaborative way to sort of find balances. I've expressed this before is that with a 0.85

1:22:50and we're slightly been able to do a little slightly less with some TDM measures,

1:22:55we're going to be stuck with parking we can't sell or utilize. That parking is not something

1:23:00that solves public parking requirements in town. This isn't parking that can be accessed

1:23:07from the public. As the developer, we are stuck with the having to work the market dynamics in the

1:23:15sense of obviously we want to get make it attractive for residents to be in these buildings.

1:23:21They're not going to be in these buildings if they feel that they can't live there without a form of

1:23:26transit that's satisfactory to them. We want and we need to manage that balance between cars,

1:23:33which wouldn't be zero, but we believe we can do far less and encourage other forms that we'd like

1:23:39to invest in. Our experience in other cities, whether it be Ottawa, Toronto, others, they've all

1:23:48passed in their downtowners, not across the board. There's certain areas where parking still needs,

1:23:52but particularly in the downtown courier is no minimum parking requirements, leaving it to the

1:23:58balance as far as the market to dictate. For us, that means we do have some projects that are

1:24:05higher end where we absolutely know we have to provide that parking because those residents

1:24:10are going to need that parking. In other cases where we know we're going to have a mix,

1:24:17even at 0.5 in Ottawa when we've been left with parking because we've done such a good job of,

1:24:23and that was our choice to go 0.5. There was no minimum, but for the balance, we did such a

1:24:28good job of convincing people to not need their car. I think there is just a balance that an

1:24:38understanding that really when it comes to parking related to residential development,

1:24:45the developer is taking a lot of that risk on and should have a bit more ability to manage that,

1:24:51encourage in many ways to drive TDM measures and other things to get people out of their cars.

1:24:56Then I would just say across the board, cars are expensive. More and more, there's a trend. Gen Xs

1:25:02are less and less getting licenses. Automated vehicles are coming in place, Uber, all these

1:25:07different trends that are allowing people to live without cars. The more we mandate a certain

1:25:12number of cars, because if you mandate a parking stop, someone's got a park there, and that mandates

1:25:17a car, which just drives more congestion in the downtown area and defeats the purpose of what

1:25:21we're trying to do. That's been our experience. We've been successful in other municipalities,

1:25:28and you'll see, I'd say, in a lot of close to home, southern Ontario cities. There's not many

1:25:32cities that aren't moving towards that direction. Thank you, Jonathan. I'll finish for that. Thank

1:25:37you very much. Thank you. If you could just hold on. I believe I saw Councillor Alton, I think.

1:25:45No? No. I saw Councillor Goller's then. Thank you, Chair Visitil to the delegate.

1:25:54Thank you for your presentation. Now, it's my understanding that the parking study that was

1:26:01commissioned for the windmill development came with a recommendation of .75 parking spaces.

1:26:07So I'm trying to understand how do we reconcile approving .5 or even no parking requirement

1:26:16when the parking studies that we commissioned say we do need at least .75 parking spaces per unit.

1:26:24So if you can speak to that, I would appreciate it. Yeah, I do think that was a parking study done

1:26:31on behalf of the city, not ourselves. And secondly, that parking study which we struggled with was

1:26:38trying to say, listen, are you taking into account that we are saying we are going to invest in

1:26:43ensuring there's active car share available to residents, active bike spot per resident,

1:26:48bike share programs, and were those things taken into account in the car share pro in that parking

1:26:54study, which again was left to some good discussion, but left, I would say, still open.

1:27:00But then the last thing is that, again, these are private parking stalls. So if I am ultimately

1:27:08taking it, we as a developer are ultimately taking that risk. And if we chose to build less

1:27:15and not related to then people not wanting to live in our building, that becomes our problem.

1:27:19If we're forced to build more than we think is needed, we're left with vacant parking spots

1:27:24that the public can't use. And they just become a sunk investment or a reason for us to have to force

1:27:31someone who didn't necessarily want a car or have a car to please buy it because

1:27:34we don't want to be left with that parking stall. Thank you for that. I appreciate that.

1:27:42I'm still hopeful that we can find research that indicates that we are ready for having no parking

1:27:52and to that end, I believe that coming up next month, you have a number of measures that you

1:27:59would be recommending like active transportation, bicycle parking spaces, bus buses, things that

1:28:07would encourage people to not have a car. So I think one of the concerns is that if we were to

1:28:14eliminate the minimum, go down to zero, then there would be no incentives for developers to build in

1:28:21those active transportation measures. Could you speak to that whether having the

1:28:28payment to a new policy would be required or whether you would be building those things either way?

1:28:36So one thing just pulling, because this isn't a discussion necessarily about Guelph or our view,

1:28:40I think it's inherent that there's a review of the general trends across major metropolitan

1:28:46centers across North America and can there be examples where parking reduced, that that has

1:28:53caused less or more benefit to the downtown area. Nothing comes without it, but in the sense of

1:29:00bringing more housing, bringing more affordability, bringing more urban traffic. Again, I'm coming

1:29:06from a certain lens, but your hard press to find examples or trends where that has not led to

1:29:13more positive outcomes and negative outcomes in what's being sought.

1:29:17With the relation to our TDM measures and things like that, again, I would say again,

1:29:23we're concerned we're going to still be left with too much parking. Yes, we are committed to doing

1:29:27those things and we are not doing our job if we're not convincing people that they don't need a car,

1:29:32as we're trying to let people live within the resources of one planet. The thing that I think

1:29:39you have to appreciate to your comment, do we need to have these cash and lieu for developers that

1:29:45don't provide these, a developer that doesn't provide the comfort to a potential resident

1:29:51that they can live in that building and have satisfactory transit options. And that's where,

1:29:58you know, if we were to go ahead with bigger, we wouldn't be looking for zero. We know some of our

1:30:02residents are going to need parking. We just don't think the ratio is as high perhaps as it is.

1:30:06Then I am left with a building that won't be occupied. So that decision and that investment

1:30:12by that developer, and that's why like downtown Toronto, you're seeing buildings now get built

1:30:16with no parking, but you're never seeing that happen without other modal transit options being

1:30:22presented because as a developer, you have to appreciate you're not going to move your real

1:30:25estate unless you have residents that say, I'm coming and there are options that I'm comfortable

1:30:30with in the sense of my modality. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Thank you, Chair.

1:30:38Thank you. I have Councillor Allt and then Councillor Oroch.

1:30:42Thank you very much, Chair Busuttil. Through you to Mr. Westenda. Mr. Westenda, I appreciate your

1:30:48references to Europe. I've had some experience trying to bike around Europe and some experience

1:30:56driving around Europe, both with some successes and both with some anxiety. One of my concerns

1:31:04when you made reference to that is that I see significant deficiencies since the 1950s when

1:31:10we essentially based our principles on those, I believe it was, of the designer and developer

1:31:18and planner Mumford, that we now are in a position where we're reversing ourselves. I'm questioning

1:31:27whether we don't need to do it carefully and strategically to ensure that we have public transit

1:31:35and we have multimodal transportation effectively and efficiently running before we move too quickly.

1:31:42I was wondering if you could please comment upon that. So thank you. That's a good question. Yes,

1:31:49these things have to be balanced and again part of that comes back to who's ultimately taking that

1:31:56risk in the context of the developer, the municipality, if sufficient intermodal or transit

1:32:05options aren't provided in the sense of occupying buildings. But I would say that

1:32:12there can be a check to this. Like for example, in our case, we are providing

1:32:17one bike stall per unit. We are providing a car share. We are providing a bike share.

1:32:22We are providing all those things. Could there be perhaps better mechanism to reflect than the

1:32:28ability to offset? Because in this case, we want to invest in all those things, but if we reduce our

1:32:34parking, it's a cash and money that goes to the city. It doesn't do much to help us in investing in

1:32:39those things. And so can there be better credit for these things as further starting point to say,

1:32:45okay, yes, we can be more flexible on your parking requirements so long as you do demonstrate

1:32:50you're bringing these things and you are bringing those options. And as much as that's our job to

1:32:54have to convince the market of that, yes, if it's also our job to convince staff and council of that,

1:33:00that's fine. But there needs to be ideally there could be more flexibility in that equation.

1:33:06Thank you. So what I'm hearing you say that there is a capacity for negotiation,

1:33:12regardless what the ratio might be, whether it's 1.85, 0.75, but that negotiation to ensure those

1:33:20amenities are in is something that is clearly within the purview of developers and city planners,

1:33:28is that correct? Well, again, I'd say the ultimate risk falls back to the developer.

1:33:34And that's where cities that have gone ahead and waived their minimum parking and those sorts of

1:33:38things, you know, it's nothing's perfect, but it's worked and is gauging full buildings, more

1:33:44housing happening, more housing. Parking is the biggest loss leader in any development. So

1:33:52I'll never recover the cost of building a new parking stall and I have to average that across

1:33:56all the units. So that just makes all my units more less affordable. So there's all these elements

1:34:01that still are within the equation of the developer to sort of have to balance and yes, give comfort

1:34:07to the municipality and staff. And yes, there's obviously room for negotiation. It's just a question

1:34:13of, you know, the the the kind like we, for example, had proposed on Baker, perhaps we could

1:34:21take our first building and use that as a gauge in the sense of the sales to because that's a

1:34:26market condo, people aren't going to buy the condos if there's not a parking stall if they want a

1:34:30parking stall, in which case, you know, we're going to end that ratio, we achieve be something that

1:34:34we can then average for the next time, you know, as an example. So it's proof driven results to do that.

1:34:40And so these are all factors that can be looked at. But again, it's just sort of ask, you know,

1:34:48stepping back a bit and looking at what is happening, where it's happening, what are the

1:34:52negative positive consequences of happening, these other municipalities. And I believe there's

1:34:57plenty of examples out there to sort of give comfort and highlight some of the challenges to

1:35:03these, but that it's generally been the trend and been, again, from my perspective, driven more

1:35:09positive outcomes due to that trend. Thank you very much for your very open discussion of this

1:35:15particular issue. Madam Chair, I will be happy to move the motions at the appropriate time.

1:35:21And I will probably have questions for staff about what we've just discussed as well.

1:35:26Thank you very much. And just to let you know, Mr. Weston, I've been biking through Baker Street.

1:35:31I still haven't found a place to deposit my late books, but it looks beautiful.

1:35:36Thank you. I have Councillor Oroch. Thank you, Chair. I'll just tell you to Mr. Weston,

1:35:42just a quick question around parking and affordability. In your current models,

1:35:48do you decouple the parking space from the unit, thereby allowing people to

1:35:54forego parking if they don't want any or purchase an additional parking space if they need more than one?

1:36:01So that in general, I say has been a trend that has, as municipalities have moved away from minimum

1:36:06parking requirements, then, and then also from an affordability point of view, yes,

1:36:10increasingly there's been a trend of decoupling the parking from the unit. So we absolutely do

1:36:14decouple. At the same time, the more you're required to build more stalls than you think you might

1:36:20need to, the more you're kind of needing to maybe balance coupling versus decoupling because

1:36:26you also want to make sure you do not get left with a bunch of vacant stalls that you otherwise

1:36:33thought you might not have needed. Thank you. Through you, Chair Bustil. So I'm just wondering,

1:36:40so I'm a Councillor for the South End, lots of apartment buildings, and a concern I get often

1:36:46is people who want a space or a second space in their building have a really hard time doing that.

1:36:53Sometimes the property manager won't allow a notice in the elevator to say I need a second spot,

1:36:59and sometimes it's something really simple. One of my first calls as a Councillor was a woman who's

1:37:05mother who was disabled, moved in with her, and they were now sharing the apartment.

1:37:10Then the mum got the parking spot, but then the daughter who was commuting into work to

1:37:16Cambridge or something, then really, really couldn't find a second space. So do you not have a

1:37:21mechanism within your building to allow for that kind of ebb and flow and renting within parking

1:37:27spaces amongst residents? So in our case, speaking for the first tower in our building, it's a market

1:37:34condo. So we have the one opportunity of selling to an end user and what their parking requirements

1:37:41are, and then from there going forward, it's sort of its own market. So in the sense that if someone

1:37:47wanted to sell their stall in a building to someone else in the stall, that's within their

1:37:51marketplace to manage that. If it was a rental building, then that is more of a capacity of

1:38:00what's available. And if there was surplus parking available, then that can be made available to

1:38:05that resident. And the one thing I would just say in comparing, say, downtown Guelph to say the

1:38:11south end as well, is you have everything within a 10-minute walk of your door.

1:38:18In the south end and other places, there's a bit more of a need to have your car to get places.

1:38:22And so that's something we obviously want to be promoting heavily and encouraging.

1:38:31That's where you have seen minimum parking. In Toronto and Ottawa, it's their downtown car.

1:38:36It's not everywhere. So it does need to be considered as far as amenities that are readily

1:38:42available without needing a car and then looking at your parking requirements in those different

1:38:47areas. I appreciate that. Thank you. I have Councillor Chew. Thank you to the chair, to the

1:38:53delegate. Thank you for your presentation. You appreciate all the work that you're doing

1:38:58in downtown Guelph. I was just wondering if we were to hypothetically reduce the minimum parking

1:39:05requirement from the 0.75 that you guys have worked with staff to achieve, are there any

1:39:12alternative TDM measures that you would be willing to consider to help incentivize a reduction

1:39:17in the parking minimums for your site? I think one of the things that we're looking for here is

1:39:22what are the incentives that you can provide up front, transparently to the public, so that we

1:39:27can be more confident in supporting or at least considering a reduction of parking minimums?

1:39:36Thank you for your question. And again, I'll put it back. And certainly, if you or someone come

1:39:40to look at our building as a private citizen, again, is the risk on the city or on us in a sense

1:39:47that if you're looking to live in this building and I'm not satisfying you with that exact question

1:39:54and the sense of we've provided you these mechanisms, but guess what? There's a two building,

1:40:00a building two doors down that has a parking stop from it. Would you come live in my building?

1:40:04You know, probably not. And so it is our job to say, and that's where already in what we've proposed,

1:40:13and this is where Guelph is seen and still across from the very sustainable Green City,

1:40:21we've proposed a very strong measure of TDM measures and sensors that we're investing in,

1:40:26not only a bike stall per unit, but a very active bike share program, a car share program,

1:40:32or, you know, and this is where it's a trade off a little bit in the sense of what we have to provide

1:40:36versus what we think we can balance, open to investing in transit, you know, passes and things

1:40:41like that, because I'm happy to invest in anything that can convince someone they can get by without

1:40:47a car. And if I can't convince some of that and I don't have a parking stall for them, they just

1:40:51won't live in my building. And that's my risk. That's not the city's risk in that happening or not

1:40:56happening. And just a quick follow up. I guess what I'm trying to get at here is like, I'm looking

1:41:03at page nine of the parking study, which has a proposed TDM, enhanced TDM plan that is in front

1:41:09of us. Like, by the way, it's very good. I appreciate what's being offered. But at the same time,

1:41:15if we were to give you a further reduction, is there anything else in addition to what has

1:41:21been provided that you would be willing to explore with our staff? Again, I'm sorry, I'll ask you

1:41:28the question again, if I may. If you came to my building and I had reduced my parking and you

1:41:36were adamant you wanted a parking stall, would you buy in my building? Is that a question to me?

1:41:46I'm sorry, I'm asking that too, because it's sort of trying to turn around and say like,

1:41:51I turn it a little bit in the sense that that's ultimately my risk, or the developer's risk,

1:41:56not the city's risk, in the sense that if we haven't provided those alternatives

1:42:00in exchange for reduced parking, then people just won't come live in our building if we haven't

1:42:05satisfied them that they can't live in that building with, again, transit options that they

1:42:11can live with. There are plenty of options at the marketplace for them to go find a place that can

1:42:15give them parking if that's critical for them. And versus the opposite, if I provide too much parking,

1:42:21that now becomes a burden in the context of what just happened to us.

1:42:30We're sitting there with an idle investment that could have been put in a much better place,

1:42:33and we didn't have an option to manage that market actively.

1:42:40Thank you. Is that all, Councillor Chew? Yeah, I'll just leave it that for now.

1:42:44Thank you. I see that DCO Holmes would like to add some comments.

1:42:49Thank you, Madam Chair. I was just going to jump in because we are actually talking about the

1:42:52downtown parking master plan as a whole here. This started to sound like it was talking about

1:42:57a specific site application for Council's reference. This particular application is coming to Council

1:43:04to planning on October the 17th. So those kind of questions about the specific site

1:43:10will be more appropriate at that time. Thank you very much. Any further questions?

1:43:16I'd like to thank Mr. Westend, please. Oh, there's the Mayor waving. Thank you,

1:43:24City Madam Chair. In general, or either your site that you have built or in other places,

1:43:35or your development community that you're maybe dealing with, when there is no parking

1:43:43minimums, that means that you could then use that space for cars where they would be parked

1:43:52or more units. Would you suggest that that's an accurate statement that in your case,

1:43:58in your developments, or in others, that it would actually supply more homes for people?

1:44:07You know, that's true in markets that generally would drive above ground parking

1:44:12for their parking. Like you see a lot of saying, kitchen and waterloo markets, that's a thing.

1:44:18You know, in most of our developments, they're driving underground parking.

1:44:23And so I would say it can drive more housing, more units when you're not stuck on a ratio

1:44:29that you need to relate to. And again, you can create more affordability, but it's not necessarily

1:44:34that space itself. And quite frankly, again, from a long-term trend relative to

1:44:40car use, automated parking, less and less people driving on it, there's a bigger concern also that

1:44:46these underground structures over time are going to eventually become a lost investment that

1:44:53you don't know what to do with because they got slightly overbuilt and they are hard to repurpose

1:44:57into some other nature. So generally, it can drive more housing, but it's not necessarily a

1:45:05straight conversion of that dedicated space to housing.

1:45:11Yes, thank you. In the cash and lieu that's being presented as one of the measures to get out of

1:45:20parking, that money would come out of the performer, though, of the development where that money could

1:45:27potentially stay to actually provide more units. Is that something you've seen or no?

1:45:33Yes, again, the cash and lieu is not necessarily solving the issue of providing alternate transit

1:45:43options, all those sorts of things. And yes, it's taking money away that could just be creating more

1:45:48affordability in housing. And still within that cycle of the developer's main motive is to fill a

1:45:56building, get it occupied, whatever the structure is, and have sufficient amenity and

1:46:02and transportation options that makes people comfortable living there. And increasingly,

1:46:07with costs being where they are, affordability is becoming more and more critical. Cars are

1:46:12becoming less and less an option. And the need to be flexible around these things is critical to

1:46:18create more affordable housing primarily also. Okay, my last question, Chair, is I just want

1:46:27to get your gut reaction on something. I am going to put you on the spot. Were you surprised that

1:46:32Guelph recommendation was 0.85 when you're seeing what's happening across North America

1:46:41with Guelph's sort of reputation of trying to be green? Your overall environmental goals for your

1:46:51company, were you surprised to actually see such a recommendation? Well, having worked for years now

1:47:00with the city, I understand the tension of downtown in the sense of a lot of the downtown

1:47:04businesses feeling the need for more parking to attract business and therefore driving policy

1:47:13for parking. And that's where I sort of struggle in the sense of policy for residential parking

1:47:18requirements doesn't really impact what's available necessarily for public parking and business. And

1:47:25another thing is downtown because again, we're dealing with spaces that are available to the public.

1:47:29And rarely are you finding that people are saying if I can't get a parking stop here,

1:47:33I'm going to go park on the street wherever. Those things just get challenging. But yes,

1:47:38I would say, I guess what I'm surprised by or I wouldn't even say surprised, I would just say I

1:47:44would encourage is that this is not a new topic that just the city of Guelph is tackling. This is

1:47:51a topic that every major urban center in North America and quite frankly around the world is

1:47:57looking at in the context of how do they want to create a vibrant, sustainable downtown core.

1:48:03And the predominant trend you're seeing is a move towards less and less options for the car,

1:48:10more and more options for the pedestrian and other options. And that's generally, and this is where

1:48:14for all the questions being opposed, though, if can we trade this for that? I'm just trying to say

1:48:20on a macro level, it's hard to find a situation where the downtown areas have reduced parking

1:48:28and it's created a less vibrant versus a more vibrant downtown core.

1:48:33Okay, thank you. Thank you. I have one final question from Councillor Klassen.

1:48:39Yes, thank you through you, Chair to the delegate. Thank you for your presentation.

1:48:43I had a question with regard to building parking when you build your developments,

1:48:48how much does transit factor into your decisions when you're building parking?

1:48:56Well, there's a couple of key things that lead to the amount of parking. So one, yes, transit is a

1:49:02key thing in the sense of access. The first and foremost I'd say is what can you do with

1:49:06in 10 minutes outside your front door? And if you can do everything, that's the number one driver,

1:49:10because then you don't even need transit in many instances other than if you're going somewhere

1:49:15else, but for your daily needs, you don't need anything. And that's what downtown Guelph has,

1:49:18and you guys should celebrate and enjoy. I think it's an amazing downtown core.

1:49:23Transit and access to rapid transit would become second. And then third would be the market type.

1:49:28So the higher end, the more expensive they are, generally they drive a higher parking ratio than

1:49:33the more affordable mid-market other things where people are just trying to be able to afford a home

1:49:39and are willing to sacrifice certain things or in many cases, I stay out of a car as much as

1:49:46possible. I might get very much happy for it. Just find that they can do without the car.

1:49:53But cars are increasingly, parking stalls are more expensive, cars are more expensive,

1:49:58everything's more expensive, and this is just another means to give an option to live a more

1:50:02affordable lifestyle. Okay, thank you. So it does factor into the decisions then around the

1:50:11quantity of parking spaces when you're building something new. As I say, it'd be factor number

1:50:19one is what can you do within 10 minutes at your front door if you can do everything?

1:50:22That's the biggest factor to say, okay, second would be transit, and then third would be the

1:50:27sort of market type. Okay, thank you. And one last question through you, Chair,

1:50:37to the delegate, have you ever had a residence asked for parking after you've built a development

1:50:42gone to market? So you've decided, I don't know exactly the order of operations, but

1:50:49you know, I'm assuming that you look at a market and determine, okay, well, we want to have this

1:50:55many parking spots or these are the rules. After that, especially in markets that you've referred

1:51:00to, I'm thinking Ottawa, Toronto, where you have close to zero or zero parking minimums,

1:51:08have residents come back and asked for subsequent parking spaces? And I think that perhaps this

1:51:16was partially answered. And I think the question was from Councillor O'Rourke with regard to

1:51:24you know, the story she told about a woman living in an apartment building. But I just wanted to

1:51:29understand a little bit about what some of that, what would happen if residents came back to you

1:51:36after they had, you know, wanted to invest and then asked for parking? So the,

1:51:45I'm sure I was going to say something about the, but on that sense again, we are in a,

1:51:49in a, say in the instance where we're talking about, we're talking about market housing where it's a,

1:51:54you know, initial point of purchase and sale. And then that buyer from there is its own market

1:51:59after that. If a buyer came back to us afterwards and said, can we have a stall, then generally

1:52:03we have a waiting list, you know, so for example, the building I'm sitting in here in Toronto,

1:52:08yeah, so the one thing I want to start with is that the other thing to reflect on is that

1:52:12where you have found cities that have put in no minimum parking, rarely is a developer providing

1:52:17no parking. You know, there's always some parking provided, it's just provided in a ratio that is

1:52:22equivalent to what's felt and that can be anywhere from, you know, one to two, five, but rarely will

1:52:28you ever find a developer not doing any parking. So this isn't a zero parking. This is just the

1:52:33right size of parking, you know, based on the development that's happening. But so in the,

1:52:38in the building I'm sitting here right now, you know, this is a 0.5 parking stall development

1:52:43in Toronto for which when we sold it out, we had one parking stall left. We didn't necessarily have

1:52:50anyone specifically come, but we then put that stall out to the residents and said,

1:52:55does anyone else like a stall? This is available to you. In other instances, we have kept a

1:53:01waiting list. So if someone's bought a unit and a stall and whatever reason they need or like

1:53:06another stall, we will put them on a waiting list. But it's also in the context that they've bought

1:53:11there knowing that, you know, they're limited to whatever they've got and that's the choice they've

1:53:15made and it's a convenience maybe for them to have, but it's not essential for them. And if it was

1:53:20essential for them, they just would not have bought in the building in the first place. Some of your

1:53:26question, your previous question, I would say probably reflects more when you're dealing in a

1:53:32rental environment where there is a lot more sort of turnover or less ownership and that is a certain

1:53:37amount of stalls available that that becomes again a balance with the property manager and

1:53:42sort of say, okay, if there's stalls available, usually those are rented on a monthly basis

1:53:46to residents and again, it's a whether there's supply available. Thank you.

1:53:56Thank you, Mr Westein. I am going to call up Mike Darman next. I think yes, I saw Mike.

1:54:05And just to remind councillors, I think this point it out that this is about the downtown

1:54:10Guelph master plan and not one particular development because that will be coming to us next month

1:54:15and we can delve in much deeper into the conversations around the specific application.

1:54:21So welcome Mike. Five minutes for your presentation. You'll hear a chime at the 32nd mark and then a

1:54:28chime at the end and if you can just remain for questions from councillors. Welcome.

1:54:33Thanks. Could I ask the clerks to put up the slide I requested first? Thanks. Thanks a lot.

1:54:41So good evening councillors, Chair Bustel, Mayor Guthrie and City staff. My name is Mike Darman

1:54:46and I'm director of GCAT, the Guelph Coalition for Active Transportation. GCAT fully supports no

1:54:51parking amendments downtown and why? We do not have a parking crisis. We have a housing affordability

1:54:58and availability crisis and we have a climate crisis. Other cities like Edmonton, Kitchener and

1:55:03Toronto have done away fully or partially with parking minimums have seen successful,

1:55:08have been successful at creating more and denser housing. We have to do more to entice developers

1:55:14to build more housing in downtown Guelph that makes economic sense for them. Simply put, we support

1:55:19building more housing in downtown with no minimum parking requirements. Developers will build more

1:55:24affordable, equitable housing choices for those that do not want a car or cannot afford a car

1:55:28plus housing costs. That's creating demand for alternative forms of sustainable transportation.

1:55:35I hope you have read all of the revised agenda which includes new correspondence from developer

1:55:40supportive of no parking minimums. The Woods Development Group led by Ian Pannebaker is

1:55:46led by Ian Pannebaker and his letter, his reference starts on page 252 but this is actually the one

1:55:51I want you to pay attention to. I quote in part the following. Woods Development Group,

1:55:56so the question remains, what city do you want to be building? A transit supportive one or today's

1:56:01suburban one? It comes down to this. Transit supportive, move towards no parking minimums,

1:56:11creates a real imperative to act on transit and citywide TDM initiatives or status quo adopt 0.85.

1:56:19No real action required on transit and TDM maintains the city's practice of over control

1:56:24to regulation. The second letter I hope you read is from Windmill which of course has just been

1:56:30covered but who are redeveloping the Baker District at the center of downtown Guelph.

1:56:35And Windmill is committed to a one planet action plan for the Baker District that includes priority

1:56:40principles of pursuing zero carbon and sustainable travel and transport that encourages walking,

1:56:45cycling and low carbon transport and it starts on page 249. And I quote in part,

1:56:50we strongly encourage the city of Guelph to consider further parking reductions consistent

1:56:54with other progressive municipalities across North America and closer to home here in southern

1:56:59Ontario including the city of London, the city of Ottawa and the city of Toronto that reduced or

1:57:03eliminated parking minimums and adopted parking maximums to support the development of more

1:57:08sustainable economically vibrant communities. We strongly believe that as developer it has

1:57:14ultimately our market risk to provide parking ratio that will result in full buildings.

1:57:20It also our opportunity to provide alternatives to car ownership should just car share.

1:57:24Transportation passes, increased bike parking etc make our future residents comfortable that they

1:57:29can live comfortably without the expense of a car. If you are unable to provide an equation that

1:57:35provides attractive transportation options then residents will go to other buildings and will

1:57:39be left with vacancy but are forced to build too much parking. We are left with little tools or

1:57:44incentives to provide other TDM measures end quote. Members of council I'm asking you what is the

1:57:50real risk to the city of Guelph adopting no parking minimums means that the developer assumes all the

1:57:55risk. Do we really want the city we say we want and urban planners planning experts the city have

1:58:03hired say we can have with more density and car free lifestyle living downtown creating

1:58:09more demand for better transit and active transportation or are we going to stick with

1:58:14the status quo with minimum reduction in parking minimums that will not move the needle and inch

1:58:19towards a more livable and sustainable downtown and city of Guelph. I'm challenging you today to do

1:58:24what respected developers are saying is needed to build more housing. I'm challenging you today to

1:58:28do what I assume city staff have hired world-renowned city planner Brent Todarian and former chief

1:58:34planner of Toronto Jennifer keys mat to do to inspire us to show us and to and to be brave enough

1:58:39to do what we need to do and start today on this pathway to a more sustainable future. So here's

1:58:45some quotes from a recent progress report an act of transportation Kitchener which has no parking

1:58:50minimums in some developments. I'm sad to say we're actually a little behind in Kitchener.

1:58:55Downtown cycling grid key investments the downtown cycling grid is a continuous and protected

1:59:00cycling network designed for all ages and abilities that connects adjacent neighborhoods

1:59:04and major trails to the downtown. Half the network is now available for use with the

1:59:09remaining to be completed by the end of 2024. By creating a trail like experience in the heart of

1:59:14the downtown the grid tracks people who would like to bike more but don't feel comfortable riding in

1:59:19busy traffic and when combined with walking and light rail transit the grid provides a viable

1:59:24alternative to new to car ownership for the up to 5,000 people moving downtown and new homes

1:59:30currently under construction. We need to follow suit invest in an accelerator plans for similar

1:59:36improvements to our 18 transit systems if you were to achieve our climate action goals and

1:59:40solve our housing crisis. In closing I ran as reformer councillor Mike Salisbury last weekend

1:59:45regarding parking minimums I asked him what is the risk to our city and he answered I would reverse

1:59:51that and ask the question what is the opportunity I hope many of you and council agree thanks.

1:59:57Thank you are there any questions of a clarifying nature to the presentation yes councillor Galvo.

2:00:05Thank you through chair visits hill thank you mr. Dahmer for the for the presentation

2:00:10I think one of the main arguments that that we're hearing is that unless the city has a

2:00:17bargaining chip if we let developers build as they will we may not see those active transportation

2:00:26incentives so I just wanted to hear from your perspective as the the coalition for active

2:00:31transportation would you be concerned that by having no parking requirements we may end up with

2:00:37building with no bicycle parking with no ramps with with those things because we we cannot control

2:00:44it we cannot make sure that that they get built I think from listening to the last developer just

2:00:51speaking on exactly that I I'm not actually worried at all actually about that at all thank you chair

2:00:59thank you appreciate it are there any other questions from councillors seeing none

2:01:07there you madam chair mr. darman I just have to ask is there a development in downtown maybe the

2:01:17last one that exemplifies to development that is great in your eyes I can't give you an example

2:01:26downtown I can actually give you a better example that's not in downtown but very close to downtown

2:01:30and it's at 120 Brown Street the former unirell rubber factory that's been redeveloped and

2:01:38they did ask for some parking requirements in exchange for putting a bicycle ramp in to the

2:01:43basement which they actually completed just last week I was going by I actually go by there every

2:01:47week they even went further and put a heated biking ramp into the basement which is quite exceptional

2:01:53and it's into secure bike parking in the basement they also added the fifth floor of very small units

2:01:59that are our apartments that are more affordable to the public so I think that's kind of a perfect

2:02:06example of what I'd like to see in downtown the bicycle ramp may not fit in a downtown but

2:02:10some developers could actually fit easy access into their building for bicycles for instance

2:02:17that so you wouldn't have to treads you up into the elevator for instance there would be a an easier

2:02:22room on the ground floor say that could be one example and just a quick follow-up if I may I

2:02:31just following councillor doller's comments do you think we would be in a risk of having no bargaining

2:02:38chips if we allowed developers a reduction of minimum parking sorry could you repeat that again

2:02:46just following councillor doller's comments about have not having a bargaining chip

2:02:51the planning table do you think a reduction of minimum parking requirements given to the developer

2:02:57would not incentivize the stakeholder to promote transit incentives like do you think that's an

2:03:06issue for your group or for yourself personally uh no I think we have to listen to the advice of

2:03:12the building community who are telling us exactly what they will do to make sure that they sell

2:03:17their building so if they're in a market or they're putting a building downtown and they know people

2:03:23and they're not providing parking for instance they know they have to offer an alternative so they'd

2:03:26be kind of crazy not to in my opinion thank you have councillor work next thank you through

2:03:37your chair abuse told mr darman there's a couple questions about sort of the

2:03:40practical nature of bike parking so we've we've heard you delegate here about you know ample

2:03:49bike parking so if you had a family living in condo and they've got a you know cargo bike and they've

2:03:54got a you know e-bike tip for transportation and they've got mountain bikes for weekends etc

2:04:00would you not need also additional storage so could you not convert a parking space that

2:04:07had been designed for a car for just that space no we all see garages full of bikes and stuff

2:04:14so if if a parking space was not required for a vehicle could it not just be converted for

2:04:20that type of use a cargo bike in particular I I assume it could um obviously you're talking about

2:04:29bicycle for every member of the family it might be a bit extreme but

2:04:34like the typical or the most popular selling vehicle in North America right now I think is a

2:04:39Ford F-150 it's a pretty big vehicle and I think you can fit a lot of bicycles in a space one of

2:04:45those things could take for sure I don't know yes you will need some space obviously but not near

2:04:54as much as car spaces take and big SUVs take sure um through you Councillor Pustel just another

2:05:01one so a couple weeks ago we had a member of GCAT and you know I'm a fan and I love the bike

2:05:05valet so I'm all over it my e-bike as much as I can um but the conversation in that meeting from

2:05:12GCAT was could we encourage the vehicles around the road to park in the parkade because it's

2:05:18unpleasant for cyclists to be biking with lots of overflow parking so is GCAT not concerned and

2:05:24I was just in Kelowna on the weekend where they've got a beautiful walkable waterfront and let me

2:05:29tell you there's cars parked on the road for blocks and blocks and blocks around there right

2:05:34because somebody's adult kid comes home and has a vehicle or somebody wants to drive up to the

2:05:39mountains on the weekend so how do you reconcile that how do you reconcile not wanting lots of

2:05:45cars parked on the road because it's not really pleasant or safe for cyclists um

2:05:51um with with not needing additional parking residential parking so that people can put

2:05:57their vehicle where they live if they have one again I think we're talking about downtown

2:06:04parking master plan here um I think it's quite different from the rest of the city

2:06:08um talking about the downtown pardon I'm speaking to the downtown so if people don't have sufficient

2:06:14parking in their building we can expect overflow parking in surrounding areas and that's that's

2:06:20in the staff report so is that not also a concern for GCAT to have lots of overflow parking through

2:06:26the downtown and in the surrounding neighborhoods well I think you're also making assumption that

2:06:30these people will have a car um I'm assuming they won't have a car as the developers I think has

2:06:37pointed out not everybody wants to own a car and they want to live in a building with car free there's

2:06:42lots of young people now that don't want a car there is that lifestyle that's being attracted to

2:06:47downtowns appreciate the response welcome Councillor Goller please thank you through your chair just

2:06:55a point of clarification to the question about uh the the conversion the use of a parking spot for

2:07:01bicycle parking uh mr. Devin I think I was speaking with you where one of the the residents tried to

2:07:07park their bicycle in an underground parking spot and they were told by the fire chief that

2:07:13you're not allowed to do that you just confirm if that my memory serves me correct yes it does yes

2:07:18okay so so we're not allowed to use car parking spaces for bicycle parking in underground parking

2:07:24lots here in Guelph I'm not sure it was an all underground I think it was that particular building

2:07:29in this case yeah it was just some odd ruling they had for a fairly older building I think an

2:07:33earlier condominium building a condo okay okay thank you for that thank you are there any further

2:07:41questions from councillors seeing none thank you very much the next delegation is Victor Labresh

2:08:03so Victor you have a welcome you have five minutes for your presentation the chime will sound at 30

2:08:09seconds before the end and then another chime at the end and if you could just remain for any

2:08:14questions of clarification from councillors welcome thank you thank you chair boussantel

2:08:19mayor Guthrie city council members city staff and public my name is victor labresh

2:08:26director associate director of planning for arcadis formerly ibi group in the waterloo office

2:08:34ibi group arcadis are the I guess second largest architectural firm throughout Canada

2:08:42we are heavily involved in medium and high density development within the waterloo region

2:08:51particularly and also within Toronto certainly as other the previous delegates have spoken in

2:08:58this regard we support their comments entirely and certainly there is a trend moving to zero

2:09:06parking requirements in the pure identified downtown core we specifically represent the

2:09:13woodhouse group in in regards to this matter in gulf woodhouse group has been a family run company

2:09:21for over 50 years and in the last five years in particular has been focusing on repurposing

2:09:29existing buildings within downtown core including Kitchener waterloo area where we're assisting them

2:09:35and also here in gulf so these are again existing buildings and repurposing them

2:09:41for residential in many cases mixed use but they still retain some commercial on the ground floor

2:09:50having reviewed all the past information and being involved in the previous stakeholder

2:09:53holders meetings our recommendations remain the same as previously stated that the city of gulf

2:09:59we urge to take bolder action on minimum parking requirements to get more housing built as soon

2:10:04as possible in the downtown area of gulf our written correspondence focused on three options

2:10:11that council should take action on first extending the 1971 grand parenting exemption for minimum

2:10:18parking requirement for existing buildings in the historic downtown core to include those

2:10:23constructed over the last 50 years second option directing staff to require no minimum

2:10:29parking for affordable senior housing and student housing in particular again affordable

2:10:35senior housing and student housing as part of the city staff proposed cash and lose so to exempt

2:10:41those types of housing from cash and the requirements third option eliminating the minimum parking

2:10:47rates altogether in the downtown zone the any of these three actions would greatly assist

2:10:54gulf in achieving its goals and further improving the the vitality of downtown and

2:11:02also maintaining the historic pedestrian oriented form and allowing for those student

2:11:08demands that are certainly forthcoming with connoisseur with college locating in the core

2:11:13and the continued increasing housing demand from university gulf eliminating the minimum

2:11:19residential parking rates would have the most significant effect and would be in line with

2:11:24what kitchener cambridge london ottawa hamilton and and hundreds of others

2:11:30north american cities have done in the last five to ten years some parking is still constructed

2:11:36where it is warranted as others have spoken about earlier but excess parking is not warranted

2:11:42households with private vehicles will retain the need and pay for those vehicles but that's a

2:11:49market choice if council chooses to retain the residential minimum parking rates extending the

2:11:55night to the 1971 grand parenting clause in your most current zoning bylaw approved earlier this

2:12:01year would have a significant impact in our opinion on cash and loot parking program we understand

2:12:08that some are interested in the leveraging of that incentive and that amount of influx of cash

2:12:16to provide for more parking within the core but we don't feel that's reasonable particularly

2:12:21in this environment where housing is needed yesterday and tomorrow to a significant amount

2:12:27particularly for affordability seniors and students in closing our previous correspondents

2:12:35and our comments earlier on september 6 we reiterate here today we would be happy to

2:12:41answer any questions you may have and encourage that there be no parking requirements specifically

2:12:49for affordable housing seniors and student housing and also that they'd be exempt for cash and loot

2:12:54programs thank you thank you mr. labrash are there any questions for the delegation

2:13:02yeah mayor guthrie thank you and to you madam chair so um for a developer like you when you are

2:13:14forced to provide parking um i'm sorry i'll i'll uh turn that question around when you don't have to

2:13:23have parking um that means that you would be able to provide more units potentially more people

2:13:30potentially more people can be housed through your chair per person tell to mayor peltry short

2:13:36answer is yes um it goes to the bottom line of the affordability of the project for example we're

2:13:44looking at a couple of projects within gulf that would range between 25 units to 30 units the cash

2:13:53and loo requirement of that would be approximately 900 000 so we're approaching a million dollars

2:14:00and that just bottom line doesn't make the project feasible nor would it allow us to you

2:14:07know potentially put a second floor on an existing building um and also pay for the structural

2:14:12stability of that building to add more units okay thank you and then so my next question was going

2:14:19to be specifically about the cash and loo so there's the there's the question about just straight

2:14:25up no parking minimums would help you create more units more supply the second part of my question

2:14:33though is if you are forced to pay that's going to achieve the same negative outcome which would be

2:14:40less units in the projects that you're managing to look to build then i mean i guess your answer is yes

2:14:46because you just said it in that question there am i correct yes mayor guthrie short answer is yes

2:14:52okay and other developers that you are i'm assuming you're you talk with other developers

2:14:59are are they finding that these are um no parking minimums are really helping them get the projects

2:15:07done in shovels in the ground to get housing built you chair piece and tell to the mayor guthrie yes

2:15:16i can say right now we represent four projects three within downtown kitchen or one in waterloo

2:15:23the minimum the minimum number of units within these four high-rise apartments are

2:15:29240 units for example the 240 unit building has a total of 30 parking spaces because it's within

2:15:40within the downtown core and the developer is not concerned at all about that limited amount

2:15:48okay all right um yeah thank you very much thank you next i have counsellor alton then counsellor

2:15:57galler thank you very much madam chair through you to to the the delegate um i've just been reading

2:16:05about the 42 story proposal for uh kitcheners downtown core is that the one where you make

2:16:11reference to the 40 or 30 parking spots for the 242 units through you uh chair piece and tell to

2:16:19the counsellor alt um that that one is actually at the higher end of the four apartments that we're

2:16:26representing the one i was referring to is a 25 story about 240 units the 40 it's 47 stories

2:16:33um just over 500 units that that has approximately 90 parking spaces in total one of my concerns

2:16:43is what the impact would be upon the streets around at that kind of a ratio that that's a

2:16:48significant concern i'm somewhat familiar with that area and recognize that it's a

2:16:53a residential area in transition um and so i was wondering if you could please comment on that because

2:16:59that strikes me as creating potentially significant congestion

2:17:06through the chair to to uh councillor Allt i would say that certainly all of the studies you can

2:17:12imagine were required with that development including parking justification transportation study

2:17:19those were done by in that case by paradigm transportation solutions and supported ultimately

2:17:25by city council and i certainly that's at the corner of park in victoria street um one thing i

2:17:33should have mentioned in in my notes that if you're if you're reducing the parking to zero or

2:17:38something close to zero or at least exempting it for seniors affordable housing and student housing

2:17:44if you eliminate the requirement altogether i you need to still fully implement tdm measures so

2:17:53you know one-for-one parking bicycle parking um transportation bus route funding car sharing all

2:18:01of those tdm measures should be fully implemented and that can be controlled by the required site plan

2:18:08process i'm not exactly sure if the city of guelph has it implemented totally in their zoning

2:18:14bylaw but they could put that in their zoning bylaw as a tool urban design guidelines site plan

2:18:19control guidelines and fully implement that so i hear you say that would be foundational i appreciate

2:18:25that the other question i think is is significant for guelph in contrast to kitchener is the issue of

2:18:31of multimodal transportation and in particular the impact of the of the lrt and the the lines

2:18:38through there that strikes me as being something that is is fairly significant which guelph doesn't

2:18:43have at the present point i was wondering if you could comment on that through the chair to

2:18:48councillor all yes i would agree it is is i think it'll be something that's

2:18:55sort of truest over time um you know because of coven and the when the lrt and the region of

2:19:01waterloo opened up approximately a year and a half before lrt there's a covet hit and then now

2:19:07ridership we've heard in that region is now um more than it originally was and overall i think

2:19:14over the next year we'll see how that plays into but still um downtown guelph is a major

2:19:22transit station area and has many other transit available opportunities including what other

2:19:28speakers have said you have a great opportunity in in terms of everything being available within

2:19:3410 minute walking distance in guelph i would say it's kind of better than kitchener in that regard

2:19:40for in terms of walkability of having those number of you you know um use within 10 minutes

2:19:46but it doesn't have the lrt here yes okay thank you very much i have councillor Goller then councillor

2:19:52orork thank you and through you chair posatil um thank you for for for your presentation and for

2:19:58your interest in in changing a commercial building into a residential building in or downtown i i

2:20:03think that's that's very good there's lots of opportunity if i may add yeah here yeah absolutely

2:20:09now we did receive a letter uh from the uh downtown bia the association of uh of business

2:20:16owners expressing concern that if we were to reduce the parking minimum below the 0.85 recommended

2:20:22by staff and we were to go to say 0.5 or even zero uh then the visitors uh both the the residents

2:20:31that live you may end up someone that that does need a car because they're working outside of the

2:20:35city um and then they are uh and then their guests the visitors then they're competing with people

2:20:41that are coming downtown to shop so i don't know if you have thoughts about that how do we reconcile

2:20:48residential uses and visitor uses because i believe in the new location we wouldn't even be able to

2:20:54have visitor parking spots so how do we balance that with folks that that reasonably want to come

2:21:01to gulf to to shop in the downtown if i can i i guess answer that from my own personal experience

2:21:10tend to come to downtown gulf um every couple of weeks we live i personally live on the east side

2:21:16of cambridge and we i've actually two daughters going to the university of gulf and we overhear a

2:21:22lot and certainly um on the weekends on street parking seems to be at its highest demand um

2:21:30parking garages and we've heard this earlier in the discussions are like 50 utilized but that's

2:21:35probably because people have to pay for it but for my experience and also staying you know into the

2:21:41evening hours uh sometimes during the week for meeting with clients i personally don't see that

2:21:49there's a risk for shortage of parking for you know retailers coming down here or customers coming

2:21:56down here for other reasons i don't personally see that that's just my my own observations okay okay

2:22:02i appreciate that and uh through your chair Busuttil my my second question um one of the one

2:22:09of the reasons why we want to have a municipality a cash and new policy is because then it gives us

2:22:16incentives and we can say um you know no parking space and then you have to do this for us like

2:22:22provide affordable housing so to that question i think if you can help us understand how does the

2:22:28the budgeting process or the the pro forma work is it that uh if you're allowed to build with no

2:22:34parking spaces then does that just mean extra profit for for for the builder or does the cost

2:22:40actually get passed down to the end consumer so that if someone buying a unit um would have to pay

2:22:47that much less for the unit so if you can help understand if if you don't have to pay that money

2:22:54to the city in cash and loo that you know 50 000 dollars the where does that money end up

2:23:01yes a very good question and i've certainly been asked that question on in this topic

2:23:06and other jurisdictions that i that goes back to what i was qualifying earlier that the cash and loo

2:23:14waiving cash and loo requirement should apply to affordable housing define affordable housing

2:23:20within the range that is specified for the city of guelph um seniors housing and student housing

2:23:26that's where the cash and loo should be waived and that would really address the issue okay okay so

2:23:32so to to be clear you're not advocating that we make the a zero parking requirement you're actually

2:23:38here asking us to uh make it a zero parking requirement for senior house in affordable

2:23:44housing and student housing but not not just make it a blanket zero no to clarify that the

2:23:51cash if you were to consider there was really three options if you were to consider a cash and loo

2:23:56requirement it should be exempt for those three forms of housing okay but i am encouraging that

2:24:02parking in the pure downtown core should be entirely waived for for residential unit

2:24:09as a minimum should be waived okay thank you for that okay thank you thank you chair thank you

2:24:15councillor arourak thank you jair boost tell three to uh mr. rapidesh so um if i understood

2:24:22correctly you have primarily commercial buildings in downtown guelph and you're seeing lots of

2:24:27potential for mixed use is that right through your chair to councillor arourak yes that for the

2:24:34client that we represent is specifically um targeting in the last few years within this

2:24:40geographic immediate area uh commercial buildings that are underutilized have it become vacant

2:24:47partially because of um you know COVID impacts etc and then specifically i would say because of the

2:24:53housing demand in core areas so there's an opportunity and that's the repurposing of those

2:24:58commercial existing buildings to residential right um so through you madam chair um would you not have

2:25:06to come to a planning meeting anyways then to get his own change from commercial to mixed use or

2:25:12commercial to residential and would you not at that point on the basis of affordability or Tdm

2:25:19in that same context just negotiate lower parking and justify that so

2:25:26there exists a mechanism still for you to reduce the parking for you to advocate for a lower cash

2:25:31and loo like why is that mechanism insufficient through the chair to councillor arourak in the

2:25:39downtown core zones um almost always allow mixed use so they they would either we wouldn't need a

2:25:46zone change in the scenario you would ask about um it as of right would allow if it was a 100%

2:25:53commercial building once upon a time we can change that to 100% residential with no zoning issues

2:26:00what what would change is if there is a parking requirement now and many of these existing

2:26:06buildings are covering like 90% you can imagine in downtown core they cover 80 90% of the of the

2:26:14site area so there's a very limited parking and our client is finding that you know in other

2:26:19jurisdiction like kitchener Hamilton London where there's no parking requirement it's easy

2:26:26they could still supply a loading space or a delivery spot but they couldn't come close to

2:26:31meeting what the city of Guelph is requiring for parking in repurposing that building to residential

2:26:37because you were requiring point eight point eight five even one for one however i guess the

2:26:44anomaly we see here in in Guelph is that if it was commercial it's zero so why is it zero parking

2:26:51requirement for commercial uses but it's point eight five for residential i know there's some

2:26:58rationale behind it but i think in this time and these days um it it's not really justified

2:27:05okay thanks i appreciate that thank you are there any further questions for the delegation

2:27:12seeing none thank you very much mr. Leporech thank you and i'd like to call Maurizio Fernandez

2:27:17please and uh just to borrow from the mayor i'm going to encourage if it's been said before

2:27:23feel free to say ditto and use your time to really bring new points to the attention of council

2:27:30welcome mr. Fernandez and you have five minutes there will be a chime uh 30 seconds before the

2:27:36end of your time and a chime at the end of your time thank you hello everyone i'm an economics

2:27:42student in the industrial world and i'm a i'm the person behind strong tones guelph you might have

2:27:47seen the post and i'm sure i have five main proposals that i believe council should implement

2:27:53instead of the staff recommendations for one we should publish parking minimums downtown

2:28:00for any uses two we should stop free on street parking downtown three we should stop tax subsidies

2:28:07to parking downtown four we should have more secure bike parking downtown and five we should have

2:28:14we should create a shared parking program where we encourage the owners of private lots to

2:28:21find ways to better utilize their parking to achieve 100 percent utilization rates or 80 percent

2:28:30if we're serious on tackling climate change and solving housing crisis we need to abolish car

2:28:35dependency and drastically find ways to reduce the housing the cost of housing construction

2:28:39from beginning to end mandating parking and sub-salesing cars the most wasteful and

2:28:45destructive way of getting around will only force amend the south school incremental change is not

2:28:50enough now we need bold action staff's notion that parking is pretty determined same for every user

2:28:58and unchanging over time simply not true the built environment and the pricing of parking relative

2:29:02to our most transportation determine determine how much parking will be required and when it will be

2:29:09required every preference comes to our price point reality forces us to make tradeoffs furthermore

2:29:17staff's arguments for maintaining high parking minimums i find them very weak the central argument

2:29:23the developers will build too little parking if the city doesn't force them to build more i find it

2:29:29simply not true the exonality problems of overflow parking they're easily sold by correctly pricing

2:29:35the value of the land of the streets where people are parking on

2:29:41so again every preference comes to our price point the city should be enforcing and sub-salesing car

2:29:46ownership and our arguments used by city staff was a claim that even the city and buildings have

2:29:53high parking decision rates staff should clarify that for example in the buildings along

2:30:00golden street on the south end i live in one of them and it's it's one unit yes but that one unit

2:30:07is shared by four three or four people sometimes even five so when you when you even when you have

2:30:13the full parking lot fully realized you only have zero point two zero two cars per independent adult

2:30:20living in the building so in this case the devil is really in the details we have to be

2:30:27you have to be more conscious of how we're defining units and who's really going to live there

2:30:31and what their needs really are so what should council do i believe the answer is to abolish

2:30:37parking minimums to lower the cost of housing construction and get the gate don't build now

2:30:44two abolish free on street parking downtown to stop wasteful use for the highest value of land in

2:30:49guelph three no more tax access to parking downtown as it shouldn't be a city's job to

2:30:56subsidize the most destructive transportation option within guelph four more secure parking

2:31:02downtown to encourage active transportation and action against climate change and five the creation

2:31:10of the shared parking program to promote higher decision rates of empty surface parking lots

2:31:16probably on within downtown doing this will make your downtown a more livable and beautiful

2:31:20place to live with demolition paper wafer like are it's time for us to build back beautiful places

2:31:26for people who love to live in thank you if you can just stay are there any questions yes

2:31:33councillor Goller thank you three chair was the tail to mr. fernandez thank you for your presentation

2:31:40you mentioned that the building that you live in effectively has point two five parking spaces for

2:31:46adult living there can you tell me if there is issues well you know do you ever have friends

2:31:52over that come over to visit that have a car and then what happens for parking in those situations

2:31:59yeah and the building I live when parking is realized at the maximum there's about 90%

2:32:05of two station rates so you always have at least 10% parking spots always empty there's a problem in

2:32:10the building where there's effectively no marketplace so there's no there's no way to communicate

2:32:15who has a free parking spot and who can buy it so once again the shared parking the shared parking

2:32:21program of this that the city could implement would come in handy in those situations creating a

2:32:25marketplace where people want to the people who have the parking can connect with people who want

2:32:30the parking that's one issue the other issue I see I see too is that you know my building is right

2:32:36in front of the united way church that parking lot is always empty most of the time except for

2:32:43Sunday where you have the service and there's it's one third utilized we should find ways to

2:32:52land is a scary resource in the city we should find ways to better utilize the land

2:32:56that we already have instead of coming and saying oh yeah we need more parking we need more per case

2:33:01we need more surface parking lots I think I think we already have enough we just need to better

2:33:05utilize what we have thank you very much for that I appreciate it get your councillor chew

2:33:13thank you madam chair to the delegate just from your lived experience how do you see us better

2:33:19utilizing the downtown parking lots because you can probably imagine and daytime hours that are

2:33:25not utilized to its fullest potential and you probably understand that parking is parking regardless

2:33:30of what it's designated for so how do you see creatively we could better utilize what we have

2:33:36in light of conestoga and some other partnerships coming in online in the downtown

2:33:44the way it's here is that there's really no there's no parking charge the only the only parking

2:33:49charge is for the the premium parking spaces where people actually want to be because it's only a

2:33:55five second walk from where they want to go but the thing is by definition prime parking will

2:34:01always be scarce because there's only so much land and so you could build a barcade right in front

2:34:07of the store but that would have an astronaut course astronaut course cost so every preference

2:34:13comes to our price point you have to be willing to pay for something if you want it to be built in

2:34:18that specific way and the way I see it is that free free on street parking downtown is really

2:34:26is really distorsive it it generates perversion centers where the highest value of land in guava

2:34:33is realized by people that are not paying and that they're not contributing to the maintenance

2:34:37and they're not contributing to the social opportunity cost of the land that land could be

2:34:41used for more patios it could be used for more secure bike parking could be used for more we could

2:34:49build more mini parks like Montreal has been doing and Copenhagen has been doing land is scarce and

2:34:57has multiple uses I don't think storing cars for free is the best use of our land outside

2:35:06thank you is that all councillor jude thank you are there any other further questions from councillors

2:35:11seeing none thank you very much going to call out mr. Salvatore please same thing ditto five minutes

2:35:20you'll hear the chime at 30 seconds before the end of the presentation and then if you could just

2:35:25stay at the end so councillors can ask any questions of clarification thank you welcome

2:35:30thank you very much madam chair good day mayor guthrie esteemed members of council

2:35:36and respected city staff my name is adrian salvatore and i'm here today as the chair of the guave

2:35:41coalition for active transportation i wish to speak today on some of the cautions and considerations

2:35:47that have been raised against further reducing minimum parking requirements beyond 0.85 spaces per

2:35:54unit in the council memo subject downtown parking master plan memo though it is acknowledged that

2:36:01removing or further reducing parking minimums helps council work towards our goals on climate

2:36:07modal shift and housing affordability ultimately it it is recommended that a reduction beyond 15

2:36:14percent not be considered we believe that a red that this advice is not considering the broader

2:36:20implications of these changes to our community and that the data that this recommendation is

2:36:27based on is not representative of the actual residential vehicle demand within the downtown area

2:36:32though before addressing these concerns i will note that it is mentioned that a further reduction

2:36:37could be requested through a minor variance or zoning bylaw amendment

2:36:42if the developer offered alternatives to manage transportation demand such as building bike parking

2:36:48or offering bike share this is again noted as the first caution in the memo that developers have less

2:36:54incentive to provide demand management alternatives unless parking minimums are leveraged this seems

2:37:00to be an extremely roundabout and inefficient way to handle this it leads us to question why options

2:37:06were not included in the downtown parking parking master plan that provided choice of reduced parking

2:37:12minimums if for example a given bike parking minimum was met secondly housing costs are top of mind

2:37:21for many in our community though the memo acknowledges that reducing parking minimums

2:37:26may make housing more affordable it cautions that the city has no mechanism to ensure that

2:37:31developers pass those savings on there need be no mechanism for these savings to be passed on to

2:37:37residents given two identical units one with parking included and one without it is obvious that a

2:37:43rational consumer would be willing to pay more for the unit with parking or expect a discount for the

2:37:48unit without we also know that reducing parking minimums leads to increased units being produced

2:37:54land is limited and building parking structures is very costly this was acknowledged in a very

2:38:00recent guelph mercury article where the director of planning and development from monta new brunswick

2:38:06noted that they would likely have seen fewer developments downtown if they still had parking

2:38:10minimums i'm sure you all know this is key as a report from the ontario housing affordability

2:38:16task force said we must make an unwavering commitment to keeping the spotlight on housing supply

2:38:23as an aside recommendation number nine of the housing affordability task forces report is allowing

2:38:30as of right zoning of six to eleven stories with no minimum parking requirements on any street utilized

2:38:36by public transit including streets on bus or streetcar routes the majority of the area covered by

2:38:44the downtown parking master plan is served by transit the memo also notes that reducing parking

2:38:51will not reduce parking demand this is agreeable of course driving alternatives are needed to

2:38:58reduce parking demand however this creates a chicken and egg problem with minimum parking

2:39:03requirements in place we are forced to allocate space for cars that directly impede the usability

2:39:08of driving alternatives it is obvious that reduction in minimums is needed to support a mode shift

2:39:16the 0.85 units parking spots per unit number appears based on a study of only 10 locations

2:39:22within the downtown area with five survey times for each where these locations representative of

2:39:28the down of the of the actual um number of parking spaces needed downtown the appendix for this data

2:39:38does not seem to specify as such we ask that a decision that will have serious implications

2:39:44for our downtown for the next five years be based on solid representative data and thoroughly and

2:39:49holistically consider the impact it will have on us achieving our goals on modal shift the

2:39:55environment and housing affordability thank you and i appreciate your time thank you i have councillor

2:40:02alt thank you um uh chair um boost deal it's not a question for the delegate it's almost a point of

2:40:08personal privilege um there were a couple of statements that are made that i that i think staff

2:40:13should uh have the right to respond to those relate to the data was not representative

2:40:18and solid representative data which i considered borderline uh suggestions that staff did not

2:40:24provide us with accurate data thank you you know what i'm going to suggest is that perhaps once

2:40:32the delegation has left can you bring that question forward if that's your will yes yes please

2:40:37are there any questions of clarification on the presentation any other may i clarify regarding

2:40:45uh councillor ulcer remarks thank you um i mean to say that the we don't know if the locations were

2:40:52representative there was nothing in the appendix that said or specified that these were representative

2:40:58locations that uh accurately and broadly covered the downtown area uh i am aware that there are

2:41:04buildings within the downtown area that currently offer no parking as they are grandfathered in

2:41:08these were not included in the study um so i i'm not saying with certainty that it is not

2:41:13representative but it is not stated in the report as far as i can find that they are representative

2:41:19nor do they account for the number of people who are living in an average unit in any given building

2:41:25thank you i will ask the staff for a response afterwards uh councillor gollum did you have a

2:41:30question yes thank you through chair visit till thank you mr for your presentation i am going to

2:41:37refer back to the letter we received from the downtown baa with their concerns to the parking

2:41:41minimum so just i didn't get a chance to ask mr darman this but but to you uh what do you say

2:41:47to the concern that if there is significant amount of buildings built uh in the downtown with no

2:41:55parking that then no one is going to find the spot when they come to shop because they'll all be taken

2:42:00by those residential uses thank you for the question um that concern presumes again that all the people

2:42:07living in the residential buildings will own cars and will be uh placing demand on public parking

2:42:13assuredly there will be some amount of demand from that although from our um very low parking

2:42:18utilization rates that believe that can be absorbed with what we currently have on stock

2:42:23i don't think it's a concern for commercial uh users coming to the downtown area thank you and

2:42:28for for my reference how many members does uh your organization have here in the city

2:42:34we are just over 200 members okay thank you very much thank you chair thank you uh seeing no further

2:42:41questions thank you very much uh councillor Allt if you wanted to ask your question and then i need to

2:42:48speak to the motions so the recommendations that are in the report there are some changes to that

2:42:53so councillor Allt if you want to thank you through you too staff um i've heard mr salvatore

2:43:00respond that there was no clear intent to uh be smirked staff but i was wondering if i could

2:43:08please get clarification because i'm i'm left a bit confused by the by the assertions that perhaps

2:43:14we don't have representative data so through you madam chair to the counselor um ba group

2:43:23undertook a utilization study of 13 residential buildings downtown um those buildings were required

2:43:30to offer residential parking because we need to do a utilization study of the actual parking that

2:43:35was occurring so we excluded buildings that don't have any parking in them um the so in the report

2:43:42we've seen that the results are anywhere between uh 0.7 and 0.9 use of those stalls and for further

2:43:49clarification the gordon street buildings were not included in the study they were used as a

2:43:54comparator to gauge the use of student housing and the demand on parking so they were not included

2:44:00actually in the utilization study but rather we used just to compare and get a sense of what

2:44:05student housing may have an impact in residential buildings downtown thank you very much thank you

2:44:13so uh the recommendations that are in front of you the five recommendations in consultation with

2:44:18the clerk i just want to point out recommendation number four is redundant it is a reporting from

2:44:24the committee of the hall so that can be removed and recommendation number five can move up become

2:44:31new recommendation number four with an edit to the end of that sentence it says be referred to

2:44:39the september 26 council meeting and that is where we are right now so i believe the clerks have

2:44:47edited those recommendations one two three four i did have councillor Allt uh volunteer to place the

2:44:54recommendation i need a a seconder councillor ritchardson um and so are you willing to

2:45:01those amended motions that's fine okay um and the other thing is i've you know i know there are a lot

2:45:09of questions uh uh the new recommendation number four and i'm going to ask and pose on the chief

2:45:18planner um is walkie uh because if you can just give us kind of a high level um process around

2:45:25the planning act and the conversations have been about zero and point five and point seven five and

2:45:31things like that before we get into specific uh discussions and amendments can you um you know

2:45:39give us an overview of the process and also this opportunity to provide any clarification on

2:45:46on delegation presentations as well and not not just yourself anyone in thank you thank you chair

2:45:55i'll start and maybe others will have something to add i will start with a point of clarification

2:46:00on one of the delegations um at the be the first delegation um indicated that the

2:46:07traffic study they had submitted was done by the city it was done by their consultants wsp our

2:46:14consultants are ba consulting so i just wanted to make that clear that the wsp uh traffic study

2:46:20that's in the current development applications online right now for 55 baker street is done by

2:46:27their consultants and not by the city consultant so i did want to make that clear um as for process

2:46:34process we have advertised uh point eight five we had a public meeting on point eight five and

2:46:43i think if council wants to change that it would be appropriate to host another public meeting

2:46:52we have not had any consultation on anything other than point eight five so or council passes

2:46:59motion that they have you not feel that then another public meeting is required and that's a

2:47:05council prerogative we can we do that a lot of public meetings if we have a minor change

2:47:10but certainly point eight anything lower than point eight five has not been talked about

2:47:15in the report the ba report that accompanies this the first 48 pages are on consultation

2:47:22so there was a lot of consultation around the downtown parking plan and for you know we have

2:47:29five delegates here tonight but if we have zero or point five or point you know 482 on the floor

2:47:36we might have different delegates here so i just have to say that um certainly would be my

2:47:42recommendation that any other number do have appropriate public consultation thank you does

2:47:51anyone else wish to speak or can't see you thank you um mayor guthrie i saw your hand go up is this

2:48:00uh in relation are you going to speak to the motion uh because i am going to kind of uh

2:48:07you know fall back on my governance training the mover and seconder i will turn to them to say do

2:48:12you have any words on the motion before do you want to speak to the motion or to uh what our chief

2:48:17planner has has shared um well no i just just to expedite the process here of getting through

2:48:26to a decision i was just going to speak to potential changes if you want to go to the

2:48:32mover and the second or first or at least the mover about why he wants to support the staff

2:48:39recommendation um you can go ahead it's up to you yes thank you i'm sorry i'm falling back on my

2:48:46school board sorry uh councillor Allt uh if you can indulge me i'm used to whoever places the

2:48:52motion gets to speak first whoever second gets to speak second and then we will open it up to

2:48:57everyone else otherwise i have to get in line quickly and i did i did check my robert's rules

2:49:02of order section 4.6 plank 2 i believe it is uh just around procedurally uh how that is done so um

2:49:10it's just kind of the way that i'm used to doing things so i hate to impose councillor Allt if you

2:49:14would like to say some words not at all uh i do know that roberts is very good reading when you

2:49:21can't sleep at night um thank you very much uh chair Busuttil i appreciate the opportunity to

2:49:28ask my colleagues to consider supporting the staff recommendation um we do know at this point

2:49:34that there have been two consultants that recommended this uh staff work with one of them and the other

2:49:39the other said independently that they were in favor of it i am very concerned for the unintended

2:49:44consequences and challenges of increasing density uh that can that can occur when uh we

2:49:51have an issue where potentially on street parking is used as a way to uh to subsidize the lack of

2:49:57parking in a building um i particularly think that we have a number of problems that are coming to

2:50:02the fore in downtown gualph in in the very near future that we need to to address that will affect

2:50:08both the residents and business and also um reduce the appeal of downtown gualph as a tourist

2:50:14destination for those people who have to come from out of town for that if in fact we are looking at

2:50:20streets uh providing for parking that isn't available or even parking lots for that matter that

2:50:25aren't available in residential buildings i also am very concerned about the millions of dollars

2:50:31that potentially this can have an impact on for taxpayers if the city is put on the hook for some

2:50:36of the the things that other jurisdictions have currently done i note that for example kitchen

2:50:42or waterloo does have an lrt and that many of the cities that have gone to a zero based parking

2:50:47have also been required after the fact to to build parking lots for the parking that had

2:50:55been there previously and that they are now required to provide these these are concerns for us

2:51:02we uh we are not in a position to build an lrt um and uh so i think that we need to recognize that

2:51:10while we have and we are making great strides with our transit our transit is at this point

2:51:15merely future ready it is not the future and that's something that i think is is important for this

2:51:22because we are essentially renovating gualph and we're renovating gualph for multimodal transportation

2:51:29at this point it's not the it is not necessarily that we can start with a blank slate like anybody

2:51:36who's done renovations we can all appreciate that this is a long task and it's a costly one as well

2:51:42similarly this is compounded with increased requirements for parking for go transit and dare

2:51:48i say more importantly because of the five thousand students that are going to be seeing conestoga

2:51:53college as their main campus coming very shortly many of them will be residing close to downtown

2:52:00gualph others will be driving into downtown gualph and this creates a significant problem for parking

2:52:06within what we term the downtown area then we don't know the answer to that right now

2:52:11i'd also like to answer the 10 minute proximity question um i ride both a bicycle and electric

2:52:17bike and i live what i would consider to be within the downtown catchment uh for me it is uh

2:52:24patently untrue that i can get anywhere in 10 minutes whether i walk or even if i bike or if

2:52:30i electric bike if i want to go to a shopping uh market for food i am looking at a 15 20 minute

2:52:37bike ride up eramasa hill and down eramasa hill because while i might go to some of the stores in

2:52:43the downtown these are not the stores that provide me with the essential provisions and similarly

2:52:48they are not necessarily the cheaper stores as well i don't want to see us building park it for only

2:52:53those parking uh on apartments and condominiums only for those that can afford downtown gualph

2:52:59that would be folly i believe that we need good planning to get to yes on what i think is essential

2:53:06and that is getting people out of cars i'm a strong believer in the principles of jane jacob's and i

2:53:12would like to get us away from suburbanization but like i said this earlier this is not a

2:53:17revolutionary movement this has to be evolutionary because we're not dealing with the blank slate

2:53:23we're dealing with many many uh challenges and i can just speak to some of them i rode my bike

2:53:28tonight and not everybody necessarily ready to do that and we need to recognize that uh we should

2:53:34be very very careful that we don't virtue signal on this but we deliver what is possible to deliver

2:53:40effectively for the future and that we make certain that the right steps have been taken

2:53:45so that we don't inadvertently make a mistake thank you thank you councillor richard sin if you'd

2:53:51like to say a few words at this time thank you through you uh chair busatel ditto i think phil

2:53:58said that inquiry council uh oh said that incredibly eloquently and i have to give credit to staff for

2:54:04the amount of work that they did on this plan and i think we need to follow the data it's there

2:54:10for a reason it's concrete and i too am very concerned about moving too fast too soon without

2:54:16having a full picture of some of the unintended consequences thank you now mayor got three thank

2:54:25you and through you madam chair um so i completely disagree with councillor richardson and alt obviously

2:54:35um i think it is the time to move fast we are in a housing crisis and we are in a climate crisis

2:54:42and we have a race to zero policy that we all embrace and we want a more pedestrianized downtown

2:54:49we want to try to help with the modal shift and we've heard very clearly that um the market

2:54:57should decide and the risk is with the developer and that's the type of that overall kind of bullet

2:55:05points there is the type of community that um i'm trying to get to and we should get to it now

2:55:12and uh so i'd like to move uh an amendment please i don't know if i have a seconder uh at all

2:55:19madam chair uh but i would like to move an amendment i've already sent it to all of council

2:55:25and i've sent it to the clerks to go to zero parking no minimum parking

2:55:33within the downtown core and so i'll just stop there because i know i shouldn't speak any further

2:55:38my apologies to my colleagues i should have just placed that motion for first before speaking my

2:55:43apologies so i don't know if i have a a seconder that would like to do exactly what i'm proposing

2:55:53so i'll just leave it with you first thank you i have a seconder counsel galler okay thank you

2:56:00if i still at the floor then um yes you do madam chair thank you

2:56:06uh yeah i i mean it's kind of funny that you want to amend that one motion that took out the

2:56:12words september 26th because you said that we were already there i'm already all a day ahead of you

2:56:18i'm i'm on the 27th right now uh it's uh so i'm pretty passionate about this the fact that i'm in

2:56:25Copenhagen um learning how to do exactly this issue with fellow mayors researchers and administrators

2:56:36across our country um to see how exactly moving to this way of uh more um active transportation life

2:56:47with more housing options and more affordability can actually happen and uh and so i i'm up at

2:56:54three o'clock in the morning right now because i i i want to fight for this and the reason why i

2:57:00say i want to fight for this is because i had a mayor um about three or four weeks ago reach out to

2:57:07me and by the way i've had several mayors and several counselors across the country reach out to me

2:57:10in the last month because of my position on this that um they were looking for advice on how they

2:57:18could get this done in in in their communities and and so i'm surprised um that we're not looking to

2:57:26try to do it in Guelph when we have many other people looking at us right now to see what this

2:57:31council is going to do i just had a mayor tonight um you know encourage me to fight for this because

2:57:38um her council just voted unanimously a few hours ago uh to do exactly what i'm proposing right here

2:57:47and they got inspiration from Guelph thinking that thinking that Guelph was actually moving

2:57:53towards what i'm proposing here and so i would just want you all my colleagues please if you take

2:57:59the climate crisis seriously if you take the affordability issue seriously and if you want

2:58:06to more pedestrianized downtown and if you want to try to move people to a different modal shift

2:58:11for their active transportation this is the way to go and you know our minister of housing for

2:58:22the federal government uh came out uh today and i i just uh excuse me i just found this here uh that

2:58:34i want to read and i'll end on that sorry i thought i had it ready uh here it is here this is what

2:58:44our federal minister said today our message to builders today is that it is time to get shovels

2:58:52in the ground we are going to leverage all the tools at our disposal to make it easier for you

2:59:02to say yes to build homes for Canadians council we have a tool at our disposal right now that can

2:59:14help with housing right now this is a very important uh i think leadership position for this council

2:59:24to make uh and we have a tool that can help with housing and all the other benefits

2:59:31right at this moment and so if the federal government is saying that they're going to

2:59:36do whatever they can to help wealth has got to help too and uh there's never been a moment

2:59:43or a time madam chair or i think we should take this opportunity and uh i appreciate that

2:59:51i i just want to also just say sorry that you know there's obviously many people in our community

3:00:00that agree with uh mike schreiner including many members of my colleagues uh page i believe it's

3:00:08page 49 of his housing bill which many people have openly endorsed in this community um says

3:00:19no parking minimums our own mpp which i've heard many of my colleagues say that they support

3:00:26no parking minimums is right in his housing plan so uh my my colleagues i ask you to please

3:00:32really consider this moment and i appreciate the respectful conversation about it and

3:00:37allow me to have my opinion on that and i'll leave it with council to decide right now thank you

3:00:41madam chair thank you before i go to my speaker's list i just had a conversation check in with the

3:00:47city clerk just so that we're focused on what this amendment is in the document that we have

3:00:56thank you madam chair and to council um madam chair outline that we have seen some obviously

3:01:01some changes to the recommendations from the committee of the whole those recommendations

3:01:04were presented on the agenda to sort of show that transparency of what occurred from committee of

3:01:08the whole to council they obviously changed because we're no longer referring for example what was

3:01:12number five uh to council that this evening so we've made those changes we've captured

3:01:17mayor guthrie's motions and we can put them up on screen what effectively will be captured here is

3:01:22an amendment and then we will revise if provided this carries we would revise what is now the new

3:01:29number four uh on the agenda to read as amendment so it is effectively an amendment and chair Busuttil

3:01:36pointed it out to attachment four of the report it's amending that attachment which points to the

3:01:41changes in in both of the zoning bylaws but again i just wanted to make it clear that that you know

3:01:46should this pass we would effectively then update clause the new clause four to read as amended

3:01:53and then again i will draw council's attention to miss walkie's commentary in regards to

3:01:59you know persection 3417 of the planning act whether there's a determination on council and this

3:02:04is council's prerogative that no further public notice is required in regards to this decision so

3:02:10i'll leave that with you chair Busuttil thank you for the opportunity thank you for focusing our

3:02:15discussion i've got councillor Goller and then councillor or rark and then councillor ketan

3:02:23thank you uh through you chair Busuttil um this is this is a difficult difficult choice when

3:02:33the previous term of council approved the transportation plan for the city um there was

3:02:38a point where uh there were options presented to council how fast did you want to move uh to

3:02:44words shifting uh car use to public transit and at the time council decided to go for a

3:02:51moderated approach that balanced the the the use of vehicles and the move towards active transportation

3:02:58so our goal i believe is eight percent rider shift shift um to to active transportation by

3:03:052031 at that time i was disappointed that the council at the time went that way rather than

3:03:11being more progressive in our spending on public transit and and i believe that the motion as as

3:03:20amended by mayor Guthrie which i happily seconded would make a correction on that direction it would

3:03:27force us to relook at our active transportation and our public transit uh infrastructure and say

3:03:34okay if we are going to be okay with no vehicles um no vehicle parking in the downtown for residents

3:03:40then we have to revisit our public transit so i encourage my my colleagues to support this change

3:03:47and then know that we'll have to look at those other measures to speed along the active transportation

3:03:55infrastructure in our city thank you thank you councillor or rark um thank you chair Busuttil

3:04:02i have a couple questions and then a comment if that's okay um this is a significant change

3:04:08that's being proposed so i'd really like to go to staff for their input um and so through you

3:04:15chair to our staff i'd like to give you an opportunity to raise the concerns about going to

3:04:22a zero parking resident and we should be clear residential parking requirement at this time

3:04:28when we're expecting the two-way all they go and conastoga and and and so can you just flag

3:04:33for us like what are the major concerns because we would need to know eyes wide open what the

3:04:40real impacts would be immediately and then in the future so through the chair to council rark

3:04:49thank you um i think you know important for from c sas perspective is is taking a look at the

3:04:55circumstances around downtown in the short term so we as we've summarized in our in our information

3:05:01to council with with the upcoming um changes with cost of a college with two-way all they go with

3:05:08downtown infrastructure renewal programs etc um from staff's perspective the the appropriate

3:05:14approach given the utilization study and all the information container reports is to um advance from

3:05:20one parking space for residential union which is the current zoning by that is something more

3:05:25progressive that helps unlock housing and and the way we've proposed proposed to do that is through

3:05:31the suite of options contained in the master plan so that is the reduced ratio the cash and

3:05:36loop program tdm measures and then other site specific zoning considerations that can be considered

3:05:41on an individual specific basis from site to site so that gets you an opportunity to reduce

3:05:48the ratio down quite a bit on a context specific basis at the same time the downtown parking master

3:05:54plan will undergo a five-year review at that point in time staff intend to come back to council um

3:06:01with more certainty around some of those unknowns that we've talked about now to help further inform

3:06:07any potential changes in the future to the parking minimums thank you chair abuse still through you to

3:06:14staff just another question for folks who haven't read the memo that outlines some concerns around

3:06:22zero parking um should in residential building should that pass what do you think the on the

3:06:29ground impacts would be in the short term for surrounding neighborhoods for the on-street parking

3:06:36those what are the what could residents expect if we go to that tomorrow

3:06:42so through the chair to council or rork um certainly in our memo there's a there's a number

3:06:47of considerations for council to contemplate as it relates to risk and the further you go from

3:06:52the staff recommendation the more likely we think those risks are to occur um things like pressure

3:06:57on the public supply certainly the cost impact associated with that bylaw impact the the level

3:07:03of service to the community as it relates to potential parking spillover those types of things

3:07:08are highlighted uh as well you know our transit plans our investment rate our pace of evolving

3:07:14transit uh is a number there's another a number of factors along the lines as well outlined in our

3:07:19report and so uh again staff staff is saying um let's move in a direction that promotes more

3:07:26housing um and let's do it in a way um that uses the full set of tools in the master plan thank you

3:07:34and uh chair bue still if i could just make some comments certainly go ahead so we asked

3:07:39staff to bring us their best professional advice for parking downtown they went out they got

3:07:44professional consultants um staff are trying to balance the need for parking downtown residential

3:07:51needs funding of our parking services because we still have standing dead on the downtown

3:07:56park aid and are anticipating potentially additional needed services and then also to

3:08:01bring in the economic development piece for business so large employers and also shops

3:08:07and tourism downtown so they did that and based on that data and best practices and our local context

3:08:15the recommendation is a reduction from one to zero point eight seven so that recommendation

3:08:23recognizes transit and services downtown as as well as ongoing residential needs conestoga college

3:08:30and two-way all-day go the cash and lieu of parking is a measure that allows staff to ensure

3:08:36those TDM measures are in place before our reduction in minimum parking spaces and decoupling is an

3:08:43option for developers who want to come to council so today we require one parking space for an

3:08:52accessory unit everywhere in the city including downtown why because the data says most people

3:08:58who are in a basement apartment or an accessory apartment still have a vehicle so i want to get

3:09:04to the place where there are no vehicles and we can all bike or take transit but we are not there

3:09:09yet and i am concerned that accelerating the timing has a significant impact on downtown businesses

3:09:17and the surrounding neighborhoods in april of this year the comprehensive zoning bylaw did not

3:09:23propose reducing parking downtown because this study was underway we didn't ask for it then

3:09:30we did not give staff direction to remove parking minimums for the downtown parking master plan

3:09:36this is why we do the terms of reference this is why we have the conversations all the way along

3:09:42so also historically despite official plan goals for the modal shift we have not hit our modal shift

3:09:49targets in guelph so we have now accelerated through the the transportation master plan

3:09:55accelerated triple a bike lanes we've got tons of costs coming at us in terms of facilitating that

3:10:01but we are not there yet on transit or on the transportation master plan and so it's premature

3:10:07to remove those parking minimums windmill is at 0.75 because they are providing those TDM measures

3:10:15if we remove the minimums we remove any room at all to ensure that those TDM measures are in place

3:10:22and we've heard that the risk is entirely on the developer but i'm not sure that's accurate

3:10:27the city's risk is financial because we lose the cash in lieu that will help us to build

3:10:32facilities address overflow pay bylaw finish paying for the existing park aid

3:10:39the city's risk is in the overflow parking and dissatisfied residents in surrounding

3:10:45neighborhoods and it's also an impact to economic development downtown and we saw that in the letter

3:10:50from the dgba and i would close by saying let's remember those magical savings they don't get

3:10:57passed along to renters or new buyers because in both those cases those costs are driven by

3:11:04market rates they're not based on the cost to build the building and rent the unit so

3:11:10it's a false dichotomy to say you're progressive or you're not what we are looking at is a set of

3:11:16facts provided to us by staff and sound recommendations and on that basis i'm not ready to support a

3:11:24move to zero residential park thank you on the speakers list i have councillor Caton alt and

3:11:31if there are no more speakers i will also i see a hand councillor downer when there are no more

3:11:38speakers i will circle back to oh and councillor caron to the mayor to see if he has any comments

3:11:46and then we'll call a vote on the amendment okay so councillor Caton please thank you for you chair

3:11:54feel a little bit like the laurax speaking for the trees because i'm going to speak for

3:11:57people who have disabilities which don't seem to be taken into account a lot here

3:12:05so every time there is a post online about having zero parking there is also

3:12:12somewhere between five to ten posts underneath talking about how that is not an accessible

3:12:19policy so i personally have owned a car since i've been in wealth and prior to that i didn't have

3:12:27my chemical disability but even public transit is not accessible to me and as a single parent with

3:12:33a child who also has sensory issues trying to get around in winter on two bikes is not necessarily

3:12:41the easiest thing to do the family bike that is electric also costs 12 000 if you actually

3:12:51want to bring your kid around with it cargo bikes not always accessible hard to park your bike can

3:13:00be stolen and it takes six months to replace so we are not in a place in society where we have

3:13:08enough accessible options to not give parking as an option to people there is 20 of the population

3:13:16that is disabled i think when we talk about no parking just for senior buildings that's also a

3:13:24little bit problematic because we're assuming that the seniors have other alternative transportation

3:13:33so just in terms of an access piece i would not support zero parking i think that staff have

3:13:42created quite a good balance there's a lot of disabilities that do not qualify for accessible

3:13:47parking and so that would not actually meet the need moving forward or for families really thank you

3:13:56thank you have counsel alt thank you very much chair Busuttil i'm struggling with the words because

3:14:03i can't support this there's i think that in some senses some of the issues that we're dealing with

3:14:09with regards to affordable housing and vehicle ownership or a bit of a canard if we remove

3:14:16parking from larger scale buildings we don't eliminate cars we simply remove the cars from

3:14:24the building the cars must go somewhere i was talking to somebody who is a manager of one of

3:14:30the automotive firms out in the industrial area many of the workers out there take public transit

3:14:37until such time as they can afford a car if a car is put on the street or if a car must go into a

3:14:46garage or to a private setting we have not saved anybody any money all that we have done is transferred

3:14:56the collection of the cost to someone else so consequently you no longer have accommodation

3:15:03charges that include your vehicle you have two different charges one of which is completely

3:15:09uncontrollable and people into places like toronto and montreal will attest to the cost of private

3:15:15parking as being a significant impediment to getting ahead i think we need to be very very

3:15:21careful as we frame this debate we cannot look at such things as affordable housing as being

3:15:29necessarily guaranteed because it's not just about affordable housing it's about affordability

3:15:34and that includes paying for your car parking which might be susceptible to theft if it's out in the

3:15:40public or in some private lot somewhere and so let's face facts we're not exactly being honest

3:15:47with all of the details on things like removing the the parking minimums thank you thank you

3:15:54councillor downer please yes i have a point of order um i don't appreciate councillor Allt's

3:16:00assumption that i'm not being honest just a point of order in retort i didn't mention any names i

3:16:07said we as a college of councillors yeah well i'm one of them madam chair i'm one of them

3:16:15and so i don't appreciate i recognize that you are one of them excuse me i'm speaking to the chair

3:16:22not to you madam chair that's the way this works you go through the chair madam chair i don't

3:16:28appreciate myself as being collectively involved in being assuming that i'm not being honest in my

3:16:36presentation around my desire to move to uh zero parking requirements so i i i just i would ask

3:16:47through you madam chair that that be stricken from councillor Allt because i i don't think that's

3:16:52fair to imply that on myself or any anyone here thank you councillor Allt did you um

3:17:03regrettably i can't apologize because i didn't speak to mayor guthrie i spoke to we as a college

3:17:10of people making a decision and i think that staff have given us fair and accurate uh details and

3:17:18that's what i'm talking about if mayor guthrie feels that i have impugned his reputation for that

3:17:26i'm terribly sorry this was not about mayor guthrie i don't believe in individuals at council

3:17:32i believe in councils the council as an organic unit trying to decide things that are in the best

3:17:38interest of the community thank you mayor guthrie you know when i heard councillor Allt i i thought of

3:17:45the we the collective we um and so on on behalf of myself i guess i apologize if there was a

3:17:51misunderstanding no it's not on you thank you thank you i have councillor downer thanks so um

3:18:03thinking of the collective way i think we all recognize on council that you know there's a

3:18:08direction we need to go in i think staff recognize that that's reflected in the report and i think

3:18:15they've tried to do a balance here uh that is is difficult trying to get that way um responsibly

3:18:26in order to keep things in alignment with another other policies and with what council

3:18:32councillor work was saying with the current context of what's going on in the downtown

3:18:39so i would say i i won't support the zero um i had a one point thought that i i might could

3:18:45be willing to look at some reduction but i i don't know um considering what what we've heard

3:18:52and i have to say ditto to a lot of what i've heard but there's another another issue here that

3:18:57you know the downtown boundaries are not what they they were um at one point many of the developers

3:19:04that came and spoke to us talked about the downtown core well our downtown boundaries now

3:19:11take up half the ward where you'll have 23 stories do you really like those zero minimums of which we

3:19:19had a letter from one of them the parking around those neighborhoods for visitor parking this is

3:19:25going to be very very difficult and you know it goes all the way to london road it goes down to

3:19:31to long deblin street so and and now they all have 23 stories so i i think that's problematic i think

3:19:38if this ever comes back um and it sounds like it will staff need to consider sort of defined

3:19:43areas of the downtown where you have um parking minimums because you're you're you're going into

3:19:50those more um residential neighborhoods that are different than the actual core of the downtown

3:19:57i also agree with the what council work said and a few others about the risk i don't think the

3:20:02risk is all on on the developers um i think i think the community takes a risk in in um in the

3:20:11extra parking that will be able to be used up for visitor parking like the dgba mentioned uh

3:20:17cambridge in their letter where there's an example of that but also um uh grand macdonald who wrote

3:20:24the article today about you know what happens when parking minimums are reduced it was you know

3:20:30yeah there was some positive but in the one of the places he identified they have to build two

3:20:34parking garages so so there is evidence to that as well so there is that risk um as well and and

3:20:42the shops are concerned downtown that those their their the shop parking will be taken up uh with

3:20:51that overflow um i also sort of like the 10 minute downtown you know i wish but again the

3:20:58boundaries of downtown are different i don't think if you live on here on street which is part of

3:21:02the downtown and and uh those areas that that's a 10 minute community and even in downtown as

3:21:10councillor alvis pointed out there's really no no like affordable grocery shopping you you'd be going

3:21:16elsewhere so until we get to that point where you know we have some further along in our which

3:21:25talks more about you know a gradual growth in transit until we get to that point i think that

3:21:30for still going in the right direction i think the point eight five is is that starting point they

3:21:35have all these other tools that they can use to to get that lower and um so i i think that's where

3:21:44you know longer to do that and for supportive housing there is zero so there's a lots of ways

3:21:49that these can be reduced um and i think this right now is is a good plan that that will evolve

3:21:55over time um so those are just the additional points that i wanted to make in addition to

3:22:00what some others have said thank you councillor downer before i go to councillor caron and uh

3:22:08class and i just want to take a second to ground us in the reality uh that we are here for the common

3:22:15good and recognize uh that we are all here to do the best for families and our collective community

3:22:21so if we can just keep that in mind at the center of our conversations that we are a collective and

3:22:26we're all here to do the best that we can thank you councillor caron yes thank you um madam chair

3:22:34my colleagues have expressed um my primary reasons for not supporting the amendment and and to to the

3:22:41mover i would love nothing more than to live in a city in a community in a society where dependence

3:22:49on the car was not a reality but i've been reminded several times um by by the new generation among

3:22:57us i work at the university as most people know that we're when we talk about parking we're

3:23:03assuming that we're talking about cars and what we're not we're talking about personal transportation

3:23:11devices and those can take many forms they can take the form of a mobility scooter a side car for a

3:23:19bicycle and it's we're in transition we're in an evolution of what personal transportation means right

3:23:25now speaking specifically to the motion i can't support it mostly because and it was articulated

3:23:32by one of the previous speakers the loss of cash and loo because the risk of not building enough

3:23:38parking means we lose the cash and loo that allows us stewards of the tax dollar to then build the

3:23:48capacity that we may need in the future so there is a lot of risk for the city going to a parking

3:23:55minimum and as councillor downer said we have to remember that our downtown boundary has expanded

3:24:02to beyond windham street and the core we're talking about a downtown boundary that has moved into

3:24:10low density residential neighborhoods and that's where we're going to see the impact the most so

3:24:15although i'd love to live in a society with zero dependence on cars i can't support the motion at

3:24:20this time thank you councillor Klassen yes thank you through you chair busagel i actually have a

3:24:27question for staff um there was a reference to um 120 here on street earlier in a delegation by

3:24:37delegate mike darman with regard to i think bike parking but i also believe that there was a request

3:24:44from them with regard to parking and i would just like to hear a little bit more about that

3:24:51through the chair to councillor Klassen so that is correct 120 here on street was approved

3:24:56based on a parking justification report with 0.97 spaces per unit so just a little bit less than one

3:25:05and they do have 30 micro units and when they did their calculations that worked out 2.5

3:25:12spaces for each of those micro units and that was all calculated in that 0.97 per unit

3:25:19they are in pre-sales and sales and are having difficulty selling some of the units with not

3:25:25enough parking and have put in a request to remove their landscape open space and put in

3:25:30additional parking spaces in the landscape open space to go above one okay thank you for that

3:25:41comments as well is that what we're doing yeah i just i i do want to say thank you to staff

3:25:46you've spent so much time with us as we kind of try to navigate this super complex issue with

3:25:51so many different stakeholders um i'll just try to be really brief tonight we heard from a few

3:25:57you know different perspectives developers we heard from the active transportation community

3:26:01and thank you very much for that um and you know last minute we heard from the dgba and businesses

3:26:08and one one voice that's notably missing tonight is is the residents and i feel like they're

3:26:14potentially reflected in in the report you know there was stakeholder consultations done a great

3:26:19deal you know you mentioned the 40 pages done in the report and we're not hearing them tonight

3:26:24and i just think it is it's an important voice um that we're not hearing from and and i keep coming

3:26:29back to that because i hear those voices um in my inbox i hear them on the street um i hear a lot of

3:26:37different types of of complaints about about parking downtown and where i am so inspired by um the

3:26:47mover um and and you know cam cam your your motion to make us even better downtown i i i am

3:26:57struggling to find that balance because i think it is the balance where we do need to progress and

3:27:02we do need to move forward um and we do need to push towards um a car-free world um that's that

3:27:11that's what we what we want to do but the plan also um it it grounds it does ground in in reality

3:27:19as well so that's where i'm at i'm you know i'm i'm trying to find the balance and um yeah thank you

3:27:27thank you councillor Klassen um i have no more speakers on my list i did say that i would go

3:27:31back to the mayor oh i see councillor gibson or councillor Chew just weighing in a little bit here

3:27:40great conversation everyone it's been a nice night to talk about downtown and what the downtown needs

3:27:46i really see uh mayor guthrie's motion um progressing us to a point where i think it would

3:27:54help domino some other policies so i expressed frustration at the community the whole meeting

3:28:01around not introducing paid on street parking and kind of kicking that decision another five years

3:28:06down i understand the rationale but it was a frustrating point for me um given that we are

3:28:12still using public space to provide free taxpayer funded parking downtown um i think moving to zero

3:28:19parking minimums for the downtown community would result in people uh purchasing uh lower priced

3:28:26units and then looking for alternatives to park their car which would inevitably mean

3:28:31we'd be putting even more pressure on the public spaces public streets which would force us

3:28:36to turn into um would force us to do something about paid on street parking um so i see it kind

3:28:43of as a domino effect if we decide to go to zero i think that would drive the demand for paid on

3:28:49street parking uh in the near future but at the same time we're not here talking about paid on

3:28:54street parking for the next five years um and so while i would really like to support the zero

3:29:00percent and and or the zero percent demand or requirement um i i just i don't see the two

3:29:08matching up in what has been presented to us from staff so um i would again i would prefer to support

3:29:17a zero but i don't think uh council or the staff recommendations support what would come

3:29:24shortly thereafter which would be a need to move to paid on street parking so i think this

3:29:29conversation needs to keep moving i'm supportive of reducing it below the 0.85 but not to zero yet

3:29:36because i don't think uh we're ready for on street paid parking for the next five years

3:29:42thank you councillor gibson councillor chou thank you madam chair and thank you again for all the

3:29:48hard work and i appreciate all the conversations that my colleagues have presented tonight um

3:29:53this is kind of the conversation that i was hoping for because we have literally have this one

3:29:59opportunity to make a decision on this until 2028 so it's very important that we make this pivotal

3:30:07decision i would i just have a quick question for maybe some remarks later down the road if i may

3:30:14just to clear the air and make the record clear why did staff decide to go with 0.85 instead of 0.790

3:30:22which is the average of the 10 lots at peak utilization i just want to make it very clear for

3:30:27our audience here tonight why that was the clear rationale so through you madam chair to the councillor

3:30:380.85 was the recommendation that came from the consultants who used their expertise

3:30:43and who used comparisons to other municipalities so the staff recommendation that came forward was

3:30:490.85 okay thank you so much and just some brief comments i i feel compelled for us to do something

3:31:02because if we set the expectation very clear up front to our community where we're heading

3:31:10with our downtown nothing's going to change overnight parking still going to be around

3:31:16parking still going to be provided but it gives our community time to adjust especially our business

3:31:23community to work in within their pro forma how can they better accommodate within their budget

3:31:30for other TDM measures that would be better served for our community so i also think as well we are

3:31:40a medium-sized city a small and medium-sized city and zero parking minimums would be quite aggressive

3:31:49i know other major cities like vancouver they don't have zero minimum parking requirements

3:31:55they actually use per block per zone within their downtown core a further reduction so i'm happy to

3:32:03support a further reduction in parking minimums but i don't think zero is necessarily the right

3:32:09step in the right direction but i applaud our mayor for his work and advocacy and his time also

3:32:15spent with our staff researching best practices in copentagon because i think that's the type of

3:32:20leadership that we need to help shepherd the conversation forward so we can have better

3:32:26more insightful conversations on how we can provide mechanisms for transit utilization

3:32:31especially in their downtown core where it's most necessary thank you thank you i have i think no

3:32:39more speakers on my list i did promise the mayor that i would circle back to him before i call the

3:32:45vote on the amendment uh just uh mayor did you want to speak again or shall i proceed with the vote

3:32:52no i think it's kind of obvious where this is going which is which is fine so um just let our

3:32:59let our vote be your voice thank you so i'm going to call the vote if anyone is opposed to the

3:33:06amendment uh if you can put your hand up for that and i'm going to look to the clerks to

3:33:12help me count to make sure that i'm not missing anyone so if anyone is opposed if you could just

3:33:17please indicate with a hand up please this is uh opposing the zero minimum so the amendment doesn't

3:33:44pass um uh i do invite the mayor because i believe you had a second uh amendment you also wanted to

3:33:51put forward thank you madam chair so um i'm i'm so sorry can you just i just didn't see you know

3:33:59being all the way here in Copenhagen uh i i didn't know what was the end result on that vote because

3:34:05whatever the end result was on that vote will determine whether we're here for another hour

3:34:09or another five minutes uh 10 10 opposed 10 we're opposed okay then i think the five minute

3:34:17journey might be the best for us so i'll just madam chair i'll just say out loud where i was

3:34:23thinking about going but obviously i don't think the appetite is there um for this council at this

3:34:29time which is uh which is the way it goes so um just so everyone knew i was going to um

3:34:38bring forward a proposal that we do um like a three-year temporary use bylaw for no parking

3:34:46minimums to basically see how it would go to see if the sky would fall um and then we could review

3:34:54it in three years but based on the 10 three outcome of the original vote um i think i'll just pass

3:35:00that and forget it um and then also um my other motion i was thinking about madam chair was uh

3:35:07to reduce it from uh the point eight point eight five excuse me which is recommended

3:35:15down to point five um but i can hear very clearly and i've heard from some of my colleagues today

3:35:21um not only in the comments now but my colleagues today that there's there's no appetite for for

3:35:26that either so um i won't bother council with trying to do that either uh so madam chair um i think

3:35:35councillor downer might have had something that she wanted to propose and i'm happy to give the floor

3:35:39to respectfully to her um however i would just ask madam chair um perhaps after councillor downer

3:35:47i do have one other motion that i um would like to um propose to council um after this item is

3:35:55is done but still in regards to the topic at hand so thank you very much for the opportunity to

3:36:00to talk i'll leave it back to you thank you and i do want to acknowledge it's after 2 a.m. in Copenhagen

3:36:06so thank you for uh for yeah the early morning it's actually uh almost 3 30 um but that's okay

3:36:143 30 a.m. thank you i'm going to turn to councillor downer councillor downer i can't hear you

3:36:31back on me sorry no i don't have uh an amendment i was considering the point seven five but after

3:36:37another further discussions today and um and emails from staff i've decided not to move that forward

3:36:45okay thank you uh councillor orork thank you chair bue still i i decided a couple questions on the

3:36:50main motion if you'll allow so through you to staff just looking at the um the additional memo

3:36:57you have a chart and a timeline so first thanks very much for uh agreeing to pilot well am i

3:37:05understanding this correctly it looks like pilot first hour free parking in off street facilities

3:37:09which was raised at committee the whole uh by our gcat delegate um and i'm a proponent of that so

3:37:16can you give me an idea of when we're thinking of piloting that first hour free in off street

3:37:22facilities to kind of drive that behavior so through you madam chair to the councillor um

3:37:30if tonight's plan is approved that is one of the first work items we have in addition to creating

3:37:34some targeted permits so um while i'm away at a conference next week it will be um up shortly

3:37:41certainly we'll see it in the fourth quarter of this year that's terrific great thank you

3:37:46through you chair bue still i'm wondering the gcat delegate there are three of them tonight but

3:37:52our our strong towns economist um also raised a question about how can we get better collaborations

3:37:59between private lot owners i'm thinking of the one behind the albion right how do we get better

3:38:05collaboration between those folks and maybe residential buildings or something like that so

3:38:12are there apps are there conversations the city is is you know is the city approaching

3:38:18those businesses so what does that look like because it's a great suggestion

3:38:24through you madam chair to the councillor um some of that work is already underway so

3:38:29my team has reached out to a number of private and not-for-profit owners with their own facilities

3:38:36we're always looking for opportunities to find where we can find some synergy and and sort of

3:38:41offload supply or better use supply so some of that work is underway already um i don't have a

3:38:46specific example because there's a bit of time lag as we work with condo boards or owners or

3:38:52not-for-profit directorships to get those things in place but that's certainly work we're looking at

3:38:57thank you and through you chair bue still last question um i was in vancouver this week

3:39:03some of their downtown lots do not have 30 dollar day rate parking in downtown vancouver so i as you

3:39:12know feel the the rate the day rate in our park is quite high prohibitively so for some people who

3:39:19want to take the go train or can't even get a day pass because they're sold out despite what our

3:39:26eyes tell us so how close are we to some kind of a rate review just because i don't see it in the

3:39:31chart a rate review or some kind of mechanism where we can balance out those people with the

3:39:38monthly pass who go to toronto or london or wherever the kitchener uh you know five times a month so

3:39:46it's more economical to buy the day pass so when are we going to help those folks because i do hear

3:39:52from them as well through you madam chair to the counselor um so some of that work has begun

3:39:59there's some work going on with finance one of the things that we're doing right now is analyzing

3:40:03how much of our business is actually from full day rate once we have a better understanding of how

3:40:08long people are staying we can probably look to relate to reduce it our 30 day rate is quite

3:40:13frankly just simple arithmetic it's three dollars an hour it's open for 10 hours that's when we charge

3:40:17so it became 30 dollars um i think it's also related to supporting go train users so we want to make

3:40:24sure that we're creating some equity there some of that work is underway we'll probably need to

3:40:28bring that back to you it may come back in time for the fee bylaw approval for the multi-year budget

3:40:33if we can get it in in place in that time you'll see it in the fee schedule if not we'll probably

3:40:38come back to you and propose some changes to the rate schedule thank you councillor arourak and

3:40:46i was going to say we're refocusing on the main motion i was going to ask the clerks please to

3:40:51put the motions back up on the screen just in case uh just to refresh our memories and do i have any

3:40:57other speakers to the main motion councillor Goller thank you three chair for satele i i wanted

3:41:09to take a moment before we vote to thank staff for the uh the the significant amount of work that has

3:41:17been done and in particular something that um councillor gibson uh mentioned that once the

3:41:26the body of construction uh is done in the downtown we'll be looking at paid on street parking in the

3:41:32downtown i'm excited that that is going to to happen i think it's necessary uh and i understand that

3:41:39i would also love it if it came in in the next couple of months but if windham street is going

3:41:44to be upping under construction for for a couple of years it i i completely understand why the staff

3:41:50is recommending to to revisit uh paid on street parking at that time once that main construction is done

3:41:57um i am i am also excited that as part of these recommendations we will be looking at a city-wide

3:42:04on street parking review um coming down in in the next in the next couple of years i think that is

3:42:11that is necessary to support the work of of uh really making that shift from from subsidizing

3:42:19cars uh parking everywhere in the city to to a pay uh a user pay system but thank you very much for

3:42:27all of this work thank you chair thank you are there any other speakers to the main motion and

3:42:32they were up on the screen uh mayor guthrie oh thank you looks like i'm already unmuted god i wasn't

3:42:44i think i wasn't yelling stuff for the last two minutes um i uh just had a question about i'm very

3:42:52sorry i can't find it just in my struggle of trying to find stuff here um about the 1971 issue

3:43:02i just wanted to make sure that that that i know it was answered can we just get staff to

3:43:09like was there was there a motion in that memo that you sent i'd have to pull it back up um

3:43:16around that to make sure that there would be no parking requirements for the existing stock

3:43:22of buildings within the downtown through the chair to mayor guthrie um so it's not in the memo so we

3:43:31did answer it at the public meeting for zoning which was the 1971 was when the full uh by law

3:43:40zoning by law came into effect in well so everything that was existing prior to that was grandfathered

3:43:46um and since then we've required the parking for residential it is exempt for commercial in

3:43:52order to help with our businesses and our economic development and keep the economy strong in the

3:43:56downtown but for residential it is not exempt um as discussed there's options they can they can go

3:44:04through to reduce that parking with with cash and lou with affordable housing to incent other

3:44:11means of housing that we we do desperately need in our downtown they can do bike share car share

3:44:16so there's other options they can do to reduce that number for conversions of buildings in in the

3:44:23downtown okay thank you christa um through you madam chair so basically what you're saying is these

3:44:35the status quo recommendation that's been presented for us to consider now is what would apply

3:44:41for the existing stock of buildings that would be looking to potentially be renovated from commercial

3:44:49office into residential through the chair that is correct okay um all right um yes that was uh

3:45:20that's my that's my only question i have no further comments madam chair other than to

3:45:25bring the motion forward after this is done thank you thank you are there any other speakers to

3:45:32the uh motion to the recommendations on the floor okay seeing none uh i would like to call the vote

3:45:42i'm going to ask if anyone is opposed to if we could have the recommendations back up again

3:45:48the four recommendations uh and again i'm going to ask the clerks you know to be my eyes to make

3:45:54sure i don't miss anyone okay so if anyone is opposed to the four recommendations uh if they

3:46:01could please indicate that thank you i have two opposed to the recommendations and so the

3:46:12recommendations carry thank you to everyone i am now going to turn to councillor or rourke for

3:46:20bylaws if you would be oh sorry cam uh mayor Guthrie sorry i completely forgot

3:46:26sure yeah no problem thank you um so i do have a motion that i have i think in the queue with

3:46:36the clerks if they could pull it up and i i won't i won't do any preamble or anything until i get a

3:46:44seconder just to make sure we can keep the flow going here um so if the clerks could pull up the

3:46:51one that uh i think it was the fourth motion that i i sent um which is just a direct staff around

3:46:59considering no parking minimums in the next review okay through you uh madam chair thank you for

3:47:07that clarification mayor Guthrie we're just uh pulling that up right now yep sure which motion

3:47:12you were referring to specifically thank you i think it was the fourth it was the fourth one that i

3:47:17sent um if uh councillor Goller and then councillor chou afterwards who all you're placing a

3:47:26recommendation okay thank you that's it clerks thank you and through you madam chair um

3:47:34so i i have this is the motion here that staff be directed to evaluate the implementation of

3:47:39zero parking minimums for residential uses in downtown zones including community engagement

3:47:45and a report back to council as part of the next downtown parking master plan in 2028 or sooner

3:47:53and i just um i don't have a seconder yet so i'll let you see if there's a seconder

3:48:00is there a seconder i have councillor Klassen is willing to second um did you want to speak to the

3:48:07to the motion there mayor Guthrie uh just very very quickly um i talked to staff about this today

3:48:13they actually helped me write this um they seemed very supportive uh but you anyone there can ask

3:48:20staff uh if you wish but um i i would feel comfortable with uh with this and hope that council would

3:48:28support uh support this so it's a i would call it a nod it's a little bit of a nod the tip of the hat

3:48:34that we are going to seriously consider this in the next review um and i'll leave that with you

3:48:39thank you madam chair thank you i'll go to the seconder councillor Klassen would you like to

3:48:44say a few words you can say no no thank you does anyone wish to speak to the uh recommendation

3:48:54can you put a back up on the clerks back up on the screen sorry i have councillor altan then

3:49:15councillor arourke thank you i i respect the sincerity of the intention but i want to ask a

3:49:23question through to staff because it's implying that we're examining the uh the effectiveness of

3:49:30zero parking in guelph i don't think that was the intent but i'm just wondering how would you go about

3:49:35uh doing this through the chair to councillor Allt i think as part of our review over the next five

3:49:42years and as we kind of indicated throughout the process with more certainty on a number of different

3:49:46topics it provides staff an opportunity through the next master plan to to look at the parking

3:49:51ratio again and certainly as part of that review and our due diligence we would look at what the

3:49:56impact of no minimum parking is and so this gives us some clarity to make sure that that work is

3:50:01clearly done and identified and and done through community engagement so uh no concerns with what's

3:50:06proposed okay thank you very much councillor arourke that was my question thank you are there

3:50:11any further questions about the recommendation seeing none i'm going to call the question uh is

3:50:18anyone opposed i see no opposition so that is unanimous um now uh is that uh it mayor Guthrie

3:50:31yes everyone shall be thrilled yes thank you thank you very much i'm going to go to councillor Goller

3:50:39thank you and and through you chair Busuttil i would like to move a motion um i have uh

3:50:44send it around to to the clerks um and and i'm not sure if i'll have a seconder but it is with

3:50:51regard to the payment and leave of parking policy i would like staff to to explore uh

3:50:57accepting affordable housing from having parking minimums um yeah and i don't know if i is is there

3:51:04a seconder i've got councillor richardson would would you like to speak to that briefly briefly um

3:51:11i think in in support of of building affordable housing in the city i would like this to be a

3:51:16consideration uh we we the city is responsible for for a portion of the housing spectrum including

3:51:26affordable rental housing and we continually see those units not being built in the city

3:51:34so i think that this consideration could be another little thing that could perhaps and

3:51:40this motion does not direct staff to to do it but to include it as part of the review what would

3:51:45it look like if we were to exempt affordable housing from having parking minimums and i i would

3:51:51just just um in the same spirit of the motion that was just passed um asking staff to consider

3:51:58having no parking uh in the next parking review i would like that when the payment in lieu of

3:52:03parking policy comes back that this was given due consideration thank you after councillor

3:52:08richardson would you like to say a few words ditto i have councillor Allt and then councillor

3:52:15rog thank you chair Busuttil um i don't really have a problem with uh the direction to review

3:52:24my caution coming from the experience of having built housing co-ops and being chair of the housing

3:52:30authority is that one of the real challenges is that parking is absolutely essential in in affordable

3:52:37housing um and it's it's it's essential for some of the very reasons that that i was talking about

3:52:44earlier the shortage of um of public transit um and multimodal transit in places like this are

3:52:52significant and remember when we put windfield housing co-op in the ground the big challenge was

3:52:58to get the garbage bins out go on on city parking so that we could add two more spaces to a 75 unit

3:53:05development uh so i i certainly have no problem with reviewing but i'm not certain that we're

3:53:11going to get the result that we might expect thank you councillor arourke thank you chair

3:53:17busatil through you to the mover wondering how you are defining affordable housing whether it's

3:53:24the province's new definition of 80 percent of market whether it's rent geared to income

3:53:31where are you on that spectrum for this motion through the chair to councillor arourke i i would

3:53:39leave that to staff it is my hope that we would use the city's definition when we look at affordable

3:53:45rental housing um that is that is a guide but but staff will let us know what we can and cannot do

3:53:52we we get a every year report that tells us how much housing has been built in the city

3:53:56and that report identifies how much affordable rental has been built and we haven't met those

3:54:02the targets for what a healthy mix would be for the city for for as long as i have been on city

3:54:07council so that is what i had in mind when when we get the reports that tell us the how much

3:54:12affordable rental units have been built in guelph that this might encourage um

3:54:19so some more of those to be developed right um thank you and councillor Busuttil chair Busuttil

3:54:26just a comment to echo what councillor Allt said a lot of people who need affordable housing are

3:54:32working jobs like psw's where they are required to have a vehicle and they're going to you know

3:54:3620 appointments in a day or people juggling two or three part-time jobs so um i think we

3:54:43want to acknowledge that but i support the motion because it's certainly worth looking at but i think

3:54:48we want to have a lens of what the need is from the people with that lived experience thank you

3:54:55councillor work i have mayor guthrie and then councillor gibson thank you through you madam

3:55:01chair i'm i'm still caught a little bit on exactly what councillor work asked that's what was really

3:55:07good to be the the premise of my question and so it's through you to staff are you are you under

3:55:17the impression that when you the words affordable housing is included in this motion that it means

3:55:23what our own affordable housing strategy that we've just initiated definition is going to be at

3:55:32some point is that what you would be tying it to the chair of america three so the affordable

3:55:43housing definition as it is today um is an r.o.p if it changes by their province we'll have to

3:55:48consider that um obviously though with a reduction in parking we'll also have to um consider the

3:55:54um consider the length of time for affordable housing units and so all that would be factored

3:55:59into any recommendation that we bring back okay thank you and uh through to the mover um can i just

3:56:08get clarity uh actually to the clerks would you mind if you put the motion please back up on the

3:56:15screen okay so through thank you through through you madam chair to the mover councillor Goller

3:56:37are you looking to try and get affordable housing projects out of having to build parking

3:56:49or is it to also for them to not have to pay in the cash and leave for to get out of parking

3:56:58through chair busotail um mayor Guthrie my my intention is that when the cash and new policy

3:57:06comes that when we have a a development that that is guaranteed to be affordable or affordable

3:57:14rental that instead of saying you still have to pay 10 000 for for a payment in lieu or 20 000

3:57:22that staff consider what it would look like if they had to pay zero so that developments that are

3:57:28affordable are effectively exempt from the the cash and new payment okay good so in other words

3:57:36councillor Goller you're still okay um if an affordable housing uh development wanted to build

3:57:43parking oh absolutely and and i i would not support um any motion that that has parking

3:57:50maximums i think we need to let people build uh what they think is is of need um in our city

3:57:57let the market decide yeah okay thank you thank you i have councillor gibson thank you through you

3:58:04chair busotail to the mover i i just because we're here talking about the downtown parking master

3:58:09plan i'm still assuming this is in relation to the downtown uh you know your motion is specific

3:58:14to the downtown it doesn't specifically say that but i'm just assuming it's implied correct uh through

3:58:19chair busotail uh to councillor gibson yes at the i believe it was the committee of the whole

3:58:25that we gave direction for staff to come back in q1 of 2024 with a payment in lieu policy for the

3:58:32downtown parking so this is in reference to that policy um and if i could maybe hear from

3:58:38staff just for confirmation that that is your understanding of the motion thank you through

3:58:46the chair we're comfortable with that interpretation thank you are there any further speak oh i've got

3:58:53mayor Guthrie i'm sorry is there anything stopping us from oh there's no cash in lieu outside of the

3:59:01downtown um core so i was just thank you i'm good i'm good 10 to 4 in the morning here sorry everybody

3:59:09is there anything further on this item seeing no further uh speakers i'm going to call the vote is

3:59:16as uh if you are opposed to the recommendation if you could just put your hand up i see no

3:59:27opposition so that is unanimous thank you and i i thought is there another okay

3:59:33recommend uh councillor chou do you have a recommendation or a motion okay so councillor

3:59:41chou uh through you madam chair uh if i may just provide some context on my motion or do you

3:59:50recommend that i read out the motion then provide a direct visit has it been sent to the count to

3:59:55the clerks to go on the screen yeah yeah so the if the clerks can yeah through you madam chair we

4:00:01we did uh suggest wording here we didn't receive a specific wording from the council so we've

4:00:06we've oh we did receive sorry thank you yes we did my apologies it's getting late a

4:00:14that's correct okay i guess i'll just read the motion and then if i may provide some context

4:00:29yeah it what i would suggest is um you can read the the resolution i need a seconder and then i

4:00:35will turn to you to speak to it and then your seconder as well okay okay so i have a motion

4:00:43so that staff be directed to reach out to senior staff at the city eminent on best practices from

4:00:48their open option parking bylaw and report back through a information report with best practices

4:00:53for the city of gualph to consider as part of future downtown parking review do i have a seconder for

4:00:58this is someone is someone willing to second hey councillor gibson sorry who was it oh is that

4:01:14councillor caron oh gibson thank you seconded thank you okay would you like to speak to the

4:01:21motion yeah thank you madam chair so as part of my due diligence uh with this review uh tonight

4:01:30i reached out to some of the representatives from city of edmonton who helped spearhead

4:01:35and unanimous vote to end parking minimums they worded it as open option parking and i just if

4:01:42i may just speak to this a little bit more in depth just an excerpt from their report they

4:01:48prefaced open option parking as removing minimum parking requirements not necessarily meaning no

4:01:55parking will be provided and that parking is a powerful force often a hidden force that shapes

4:02:00how our communities are designed how parking is supplied priced and use effects every aspect of

4:02:06how people live work and move around and i think we all get the nature of this motion but i do think

4:02:14a public receipt of some due diligence from our staff who i would think often reach out to

4:02:20municipalities for best to evaluate best practices would be helpful for our discourse in the future

4:02:26and just a few other comments we do have to be serious about how we allow the market to decide

4:02:34what gets built because ultimately the our stakeholders in downtown they're the ones that

4:02:40are going to be a major part of shaping how our future is and we need to give them a bit more good

4:02:47will in my opinion and not be so restrictive in terms from regulatory perspective downtown is very

4:02:56different as well compared to other parts of the city and that we need to keep that mindset in mind

4:03:02and not assume that the south end where i have a lot of constituents who who still drive that lifestyle

4:03:11is very different from downtown and we can't continue to assume folks from the east end will

4:03:17have the same standard uh same lifestyle as well as folks living in the the town downtown so i think

4:03:25until we get to that point where we recognize there are differences in in all parts of the city

4:03:31then we can have a better a more robust conversation on how we shape our downtown in terms of utilizing

4:03:38transit incentives to funnel in transit demand management practices that can best serve

4:03:46condo dwellers for in private development i think we still have a long way to go but i want to thank

4:03:52my colleagues who helped shepherd the conversation on reduction to minimums i do think that's a

4:03:58necessary step it's part of the life of our city and it's a necessary growing pain as well that we

4:04:04uh face head on uh it's just like going to the gym it's not fun but you have to do it in order to

4:04:10make some progress right so i'll just leave it at that and uh i welcome anybody who wants to have a

4:04:17conversation with me or the counselors on this matter because i think this is very important for

4:04:23us moving forward especially with conistoga coming in all day two-way go coming in uh windows street

4:04:29redevelopment there's so much potential in our downtown and this is the prime opportunity to

4:04:37work with our groups from the chamber and from all other facets of uh downtown so thank you for

4:04:46this time and i appreciate the conversation tonight thank you um i have councillor gibson as a

4:04:53seconder and i wasn't sure i believe i saw councillor caron and then i have councillor Allt

4:04:59on the speakers list and councillor orc so we'll go with councillor gibson please

4:05:05um just wanted to support my fellow councillor i think this is a good idea i think it's a small

4:05:11but subtle instruction to staff i don't think it's micromanaging them at all i think it's it

4:05:17only bodes well for better policy down the future thank you councillor gibson uh councillor

4:05:22caron alt and then orc i'd like to give staff an opportunity to response to respond um edmonton's

4:05:31a city of a million people um that aside we're talking about a review that's going to take place

4:05:37years from now and it is incumbent upon our staff as part of their normal review practice to look at

4:05:45best practices throughout the country and beyond so i i'm just i wouldn't mind hearing their response

4:05:52i i certainly appreciate councillor Chew's intent here uh but it would be a matter of course for

4:05:58our staff to review best practices uh regardless of the motion um so through the chair um

4:06:11so your as councillor Chew had mentioned it's part of our due diligence to do outreach to

4:06:15different uh communities to see what they're up to um to determine best practices to see if it's

4:06:21suitable for the city of guelph as councillor caron had mentioned uh the city of ebmonton is

4:06:26different than the city of of guelph um in lots of ways um i'm i'm struggling a little bit with

4:06:34with our pace and capacity as it is as we go forward with some of the items that staff want to do as

4:06:40part of the downtown parking master plan some of the things that you've seen in the memo are things

4:06:45that we want to get going on sooner rather than later what i might suggest is that we have that

4:06:50conversation um and maybe report back to see if it's even feasible or even um um

4:06:58it if it's even doable here at the at the city of guelph before we start doing a deeper dive on

4:07:05that if it is then we would consider that as part of our regular review when we come back with the

4:07:10next downtown parking master plan yeah thank you for that and although again councillor Chew i

4:07:17appreciate your intent i don't think i'll support the motion because i think we get into well you

4:07:22know i'd like you to you know contact sydney nova scotia and kebec city and there's a lot of best

4:07:29practices out there and i think um if we send our staff out in the form of our terms of reference

4:07:37in the next review which will likely be done not necessarily in house but by a consultant anyway

4:07:43then we can frame what kind of of of policy practice reviews we want to do but i think doing

4:07:49it at this point is premature but appreciate the intent thank you i have councillor Allt or rork

4:07:56and then chu thank you very much madam chair i was going to say very similar to what uh council

4:08:01karan said and appreciate the responses from staff um i in fact actually i now have a request of you

4:08:08i think that the motion is is out of order as it is redundant to the work that is currently taking

4:08:14place from staff further i think that it narrows the work of staff rather than expands it because it

4:08:19confines it particularly to edmonton whereas councillor Caron is quite correct there are a

4:08:24number of best practices that need to be reviewed so madam chair seek your ruling on that thank you

4:08:30i'm gonna turn to councillor Chew uh that was my first impression when i saw it very quickly on the

4:08:35screen i was going to ask if you would consider allowing staff to take it under advisement when

4:08:41they are looking at terms of reference and work with their consultants in future

4:08:47uh through you madam chair i i i welcome any amendment to the motion but i think in

4:08:52in spirit of the conversation we're having tonight and all that's happening downtown i think it would

4:08:56be good it would be good to just have a receipt of where our conversation is going and i think that's

4:09:03part of having information be received as an information report i think maybe just to give

4:09:08some context on maybe the due diligence and and manpower that it would be required to undertake

4:09:15such consultation uh if we had a motion for example that said consult other municipalities not limited

4:09:24did to city edmonton would and i think if we've afforded you the scope in which this due diligence

4:09:31uh takes place would that be better uh just for lack of better words councillor Chew i think i think

4:09:38the issue is that uh the staff already do consult other municipalities as part of their process and

4:09:44best practice and that we are kind of waiting into operational matters and and not the governance

4:09:51side to this i through you madam chair i guess just a question how do i phrase this in a way that

4:09:57allows for a receipt um and and some kind of a yeah just some kind of a receipt that says oh

4:10:06this is what staff is doing um may i suggest that this be deferred that this conversation come out

4:10:16of council and perhaps you can have a meeting with the ceo uh homes uh to try to frame this a little

4:10:23bit more in the governance side of the house and not so much the operational so that it meets your

4:10:29your intent of recognizing that there are best practices and recognizing the good the good work

4:10:36of the staff dco homes um and as we see through the chair um perhaps i can help hear a little bit

4:10:42is that um as mentioned we this is part of our due diligence so um perhaps after we have those

4:10:49perhaps the initial discussions um for this concept that you know we could even share an email with

4:10:55council if that's helpful um and then you have some information about where we landed with it

4:11:02okay yeah i i think i'm satisfied with that yeah thank you so much thank you so procedurally if

4:11:08you are to withdraw the motion i need you to withdraw it and i also need the um support of

4:11:13council gibson to withdraw the motion or we can just leave the motion on the floor and uh defeat it

4:11:21i will respectfully defer uh withdraw the motion okay i'm going to turn to council gibson

4:11:28yeah he's deferring the motion as well okay thank you so that is it on those items and then

4:11:36you know maybe we can talk afterwards with uh dco homes on that so are there any other motions

4:11:44okay thank you so next are the bylaws councillor O'Rourke thank you chair bristill

4:11:53the recommendation is that bylaws numbered 2023-20833 through 2023-208 36 are hereby passed

4:12:04thank you can i have a seconder councillor Goller thank you uh there are there any other

4:12:11discussion is there any other discussion on this item seeing none i'm going to call the question

4:12:17is anyone opposed to the bylaws seeing none they pass unanimously uh there are no mayors announcements

4:12:27from the mayor however i as acting mayor with superpowers that have been you know given to me

4:12:33by the mayor um i do want to make uh an announcement on on friday and this is personal i don't have

4:12:40direction from council or anything like that so on friday september 29th i would encourage everyone

4:12:46to wear an orange shirt as a way to honor indigenous lost children and survivors of residential schools

4:12:54their families and communities as part of our commitment to truth and reconciliation and i believe

4:13:00councillor Allt you know is wearing his shirt today um if if you would consider that that would be

4:13:07oh and badges yes sorry councillor O'Rourke and council richison those are beautiful i have to

4:13:12go and get one um and the other one is also a personal comment um i just want to personally

4:13:20publicly acknowledge uh that especially after last wednesday's protest i want to acknowledge the city

4:13:27of guelph support for the two slgbt q i a community and our strong city commitment to human rights

4:13:34and equity as outlined in our strategic plan and i i know personally when we talked about our strategic

4:13:40plan i talked a lot about equity as a number of other counselors did and human rights and so i

4:13:45just want to thank the staff for and and city counselors for for support and that is it on that

4:13:53i am looking for a motion for adjournment of someone i have councillor richardson seconded by

4:14:00okay uh the mayor cam who wants to uh go to bed in copenhagen time uh is there any opposition to

4:14:07this seeing none uh we are done that is unanimous good night everyone