Committee of the Whole

7:49All right, good afternoon everyone.

7:50It's Tuesday, April the 1st, 2025.

7:55It's one o'clock and welcome to our committee

7:58of the whole meeting for April.

8:00Right off the top, we are looking to move

8:02into a closed session.

8:05It's only on one item as disclosed on the open agenda.

8:10And it comes up on the screen here,

8:12which is bargaining mandate report,

8:14update Canadian Union of Public Employees,

8:17local 241 and 973.

8:21And the motion is that that council

8:22or the city of Guelph now hold a meeting

8:24that is closed to the public.

8:27I'm gonna get there.

8:28Yep, pursuant to section 239, 2D of the Municipal Act

8:32regarding labor relations or employee negotiations.

8:35And is there anyone that wants to declare

8:37a pecuniary interest or any general nature thereof

8:39on the item before we go into closed?

8:42All right, Koran and Downer.

8:46So Koran, you go first.

8:48I have a family member who is a member

8:50of the bargaining unit and I have sent the form

8:52to the clerk's office.

8:54Okay, thank you and Downer.

8:57Same thing, I have a family member in local 973 in the city.

9:02Okay, great.

9:03So just to have it on the record,

9:05both of those members of council,

9:06they will not be a part of the meeting

9:08and I will confirm that when I come out of the meeting.

9:10So everyone knows that they were not part of that.

9:13But for the remaining friends that are here

9:15with someone willing to move a motion to,

9:17okay, Busatil and Guller will move in second

9:21to go in camera.

9:22Is there anyone against that?

9:24Nope, that's unanimous.

9:26And just on the record before we go in,

9:28we do have formal regrets from O'Rourke.

9:32All right, thank you very much.

9:33We'll come back out soon.

1:07:38All right, good afternoon everyone.

1:07:40It is two o'clock and so I am just calling the meeting

1:07:44to order here in the open session

1:07:46just before we start.

1:07:49I did wanna do the closed summary for you.

1:07:52So earlier around one o'clock,

1:07:55council did move into closed session just on one item.

1:07:59And it was in regards to bargaining mandate report,

1:08:02update Canadian Union of Public Employees,

1:08:05local 241 and 973.

1:08:08We received information from our staff

1:08:10in regards to that matter.

1:08:12And we also did give direction,

1:08:14council gave direction on that.

1:08:15Now, there were two members of council

1:08:19that declared a conflict prior to moving in there.

1:08:22And I just wanna confirm in the open session

1:08:24that they were not even a part of the meeting at all.

1:08:27Councillor Downer and Councillor Caron,

1:08:30they were not there at all after that disclosure.

1:08:33With that, that's the end of the summary.

1:08:36And so if you could join me as we stand

1:08:38and recognize our national anthem, please.

1:10:09As we continue just a moment of silent reflection.

1:10:25Okay, thank you.

1:10:26And now our territorial acknowledgement.

1:10:28As we gather, let us take time to reflect on the privilege

1:10:31to live and work here in Guelph,

1:10:32a city that's built over rich indigenous histories.

1:10:35We're guests here and we should reflect

1:10:38upon the responsibility to care for this land

1:10:40and the people who live here today

1:10:42and the generations to come.

1:10:44If our actions today can move us towards reconciliation,

1:10:47we should take pause and make those decisions

1:10:49with intention and gratitude.

1:10:51This place we call Guelph has served as traditional lands

1:10:53and a place of refuge for many peoples over time,

1:10:56but more specifically the Aniwaterok

1:10:58and the Hone Nishoni.

1:11:00This land is held as the treaty lands and territory

1:11:02with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation

1:11:05and Guelph lies directly adjacent to the Haldeman track.

1:11:08And as part of a long established traditional hunting grounds

1:11:11for the six nations of the Grand River.

1:11:13Many First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples

1:11:16who have come from across Turtle Island

1:11:18call Guelph home today.

1:11:20Thank you.

1:11:22And is there any other disclosure of pecuniary interest

1:11:25or any general nature there of on the items

1:11:27in front of the agenda for us today?

1:11:29Hearing and seeing none.

1:11:34And I do have formal regrets from Councillor O'Rourke

1:11:37for today's committee, the whole meeting.

1:11:40Right off the top, I'm gonna go to both Councillor Keran

1:11:44and sorry, Chair Keran and Chair Downer

1:11:47for some staff recognition.

1:11:49So I'll turn it over to Keran first.

1:11:51Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

1:11:53And it is an absolute pleasure to be here before you today

1:11:57to celebrate the City of Guelph's recognition

1:11:59as one of Waterloo area

1:12:01and Southwestern Ontario's top employers.

1:12:04This achievement is a reflection of our city's commitment

1:12:07to excellence, to innovation

1:12:09and most importantly to our people.

1:12:12Being named a top employer is not just an award.

1:12:15It is a testament to the culture we've built here

1:12:17as an organization.

1:12:18It highlights our commitment to fostering a workplace

1:12:21that prioritizes employee wellbeing,

1:12:24professional development and inclusivity.

1:12:26It reinforces what we already know,

1:12:28that the City of Guelph is an organization

1:12:31where talent thrives and where people feel valued

1:12:33and supported in their careers.

1:12:36Even better than that, this is the fourth year

1:12:39for being awarded the Waterloo area top employer

1:12:42and our second year being named

1:12:43on the Southwestern Ontario top employer list.

1:12:46And here are a few reasons why the City of Guelph stands out.

1:12:50We champion progressive workplace policies

1:12:53that support work-life balance,

1:12:54such as hybrid work programs and various leave programs.

1:12:58We offer retirement planning support

1:13:00and a defined pension plan.

1:13:02We invest in employee development and lifelong learning,

1:13:05including a tuition assistance program.

1:13:07And most important, we create a culture of respecting

1:13:11and inclusion that ensures every employee can succeed.

1:13:15While this recognition is a proud moment, indeed,

1:13:18it is also a reminder that our work is never done.

1:13:20We will continue striving to make the City of Guelph

1:13:23an even better place to work, to attract top talent

1:13:25and to set the standard for municipal excellence

1:13:28across Canada.

1:13:31I encourage everyone to take a minute

1:13:33to visit the Waterloo area top employer website.

1:13:35You'll immediately see that the City of Guelph employees

1:13:38made the cover story for this year's competition.

1:13:41This is Jack Waters and Aaron Collins,

1:13:43two of our Guelph Wellington Paramedic Service employees.

1:13:46I really love this photo.

1:13:48This is a fantastic photo.

1:13:50Once again, thank you to everyone who has played a role

1:13:53in earning this distinction.

1:13:54This award belongs to all of you.

1:13:57Let's continue to build a city that leads, inspires,

1:13:59and thrives.

1:14:00And I believe we have Stephen O'Brien,

1:14:04our acting director of, nope, who's here for the photo op.

1:14:10Okay.

1:14:14And Trevor Lee, and we will take a picture.

1:14:19Oh, we'll do it at the end.

1:14:20Okay, thanks.

1:14:31Okay, this is about a well-known Guelph landmark.

1:14:34So as most of our residents of Guelph know,

1:14:37our Riverside train and Carousel are beloved amusement rides

1:14:41that have been a part of our community since 1970.

1:14:45The Carousel dates back to 1919

1:14:47and was designed by Alan Herschel

1:14:49and purchased by the City of Guelph

1:14:51from Conklin and Garrett,

1:14:52limited up Branford in 1970 for $6,000.

1:14:56What a great investment.

1:14:58We believe that Riverside Park's Carousel

1:15:01is one of the only 148 antique wooden carousels,

1:15:07still in existence in Canada and the US today.

1:15:11Our train is a replica of the 1950s era locomotive

1:15:15on a 650 foot track,

1:15:17and the train is currently diesel powered,

1:15:19though our parks team has begun taking steps to electrify

1:15:23while keeping its 1950s feel.

1:15:26In 2024, 85,000 rides were taken on our Carousel and train.

1:15:33Both our Carousel and train are maintained

1:15:36and operated to TSA standards

1:15:38by our parks infrastructure and construction team

1:15:42led by Brad Cowley,

1:15:44program manager, parks infrastructure and construction.

1:15:48And recently, Brad has completed

1:15:50his amusement device mechanic,

1:15:53amusement ride certification.

1:15:55I didn't know there was one, and licensing.

1:15:58That's so great, requirements.

1:16:00This license requires 8,000 hours of amusement

1:16:03worked or equivalent to obtain.

1:16:05It certainly makes sense,

1:16:06because safety is really, of course, a prime concern.

1:16:09Congratulations, Brad, on successfully completing

1:16:12your ADMAR certification licensing requirement.

1:16:16We're very much appreciate the time

1:16:18that you've taken and the dedication you've shown

1:16:20and the care, of course, over the years

1:16:22in achieving this accomplishment.

1:16:24This very much underscores a significant commitment

1:16:27and effort you have made to ensure residents of Grop

1:16:29and beyond are able to endure the unique

1:16:32and special amusements at Riverside Park for years to come.

1:16:37Thank you.

1:16:43And last but not least, we have recognition

1:16:45for Janet Gareth,

1:16:47our project management professional designation recipient.

1:16:51On behalf of council, it is my pleasure

1:16:53to recognize Janet, who has successfully earned

1:16:56her project management professional PMP certification

1:17:01from the Project Management Institute.

1:17:03This certification is a testament to Janet's dedication,

1:17:06expertise, and commitment to excellence

1:17:09in project management.

1:17:10The PMP certification is recognized globally

1:17:14and signifies that Janet has met rigorous standards

1:17:17and possesses the skills necessary to lead

1:17:19and direct projects effectively.

1:17:21Congratulations, Janet.

1:17:29So for those that are here and would like to join,

1:17:32feel free to come on down in front of the Guelph backdrop there

1:17:36and some pictures with the chairs and such will be done.

1:17:40So come on down.

1:20:08Okay, thank you so much to everyone, the employees,

1:20:11and to those announcements and recognitions today.

1:20:14It's really great.

1:20:17So with that, we'll just continue in the agenda

1:20:19and we are sticking with me for now,

1:20:21which is the governance and the office

1:20:23of the Chief Administrative Officer.

1:20:25And the first up is going to be items for discussion

1:20:29and it's debenture issue authority.

1:20:32And so I'm gonna ask Shanna,

1:20:35I guess I could kick things off, Shanna.

1:20:38Yeah, sorry, don't have my glasses on.

1:20:41Great, I'll leave it to you and Dylan as well

1:20:44to come up and do a presentation

1:20:46just to give us an overview

1:20:48of what we're looking at as a council

1:20:49and what the recommendations are.

1:20:51So thank you for being here, go right ahead.

1:20:53Okay, thank you very much and good afternoon,

1:20:55Mayor Guthrie and members of council.

1:20:58Today we're here to talk to you

1:20:59about debenture issuance authority.

1:21:02As part of the multi-year budget

1:21:03and 2025 budget confirmation processes,

1:21:06we outlined a debt strategy that estimated using,

1:21:09or issuing approximately 50 million in debentures annually

1:21:13for the next several years to finance capital projects.

1:21:16Today we have a report on the agenda

1:21:18with recommendations to begin

1:21:20to implement the approved strategy.

1:21:22The city has not issued debt since 2021

1:21:25and we have therefore prepared a presentation

1:21:27to walk you through the debenture issue process,

1:21:30providing an overview of the administrative steps

1:21:32that will be happening to get our debt to market

1:21:35and where council is involved in that process.

1:21:38Our objective today is to provide you with information

1:21:40to help you effectively exercise your governance role

1:21:43in the debt issuance process.

1:21:51So this slide outlines our agenda for today

1:21:54and the topics we'll cover.

1:21:56We'll start off with why we're here

1:21:57and where we currently are in the debenture issuance process.

1:22:01Then we'll move on to more specific items

1:22:03including the legislative authority

1:22:05for municipalities to issue debt,

1:22:07the city's debt management policy,

1:22:09how the proposed recommendations in the staff report tie out

1:22:12to the debt strategy that we presented last fall,

1:22:15and finally we'll talk about next steps

1:22:17after today's meeting.

1:22:21So why are we here?

1:22:22Over the last few years,

1:22:24there were two significant facilities projects approved

1:22:26which are advancing on schedule for opening in late 2026,

1:22:30the South End Community Center

1:22:31and the Baker District redevelopment.

1:22:34These projects will serve our community for decades

1:22:36and we're therefore debt financing

1:22:38a significant portion of them.

1:22:40Most of the debt that will be issued in 2025 and 2026

1:22:44will be to meet the cash flow needs of these two projects,

1:22:47but we will get more into those details

1:22:49a little bit later on.

1:22:51There are two key points in the debt issuance process

1:22:53where action from council is required.

1:22:55Receiving debenture issuance authority,

1:22:57which is the recommendation before you today,

1:23:00is the first of those two key actions from council.

1:23:06This figure outlines the debenture issuance timeline.

1:23:09The first step determining draft borrowing needs

1:23:12is done as part of the budget process.

1:23:14We're currently at the second step

1:23:16where we are seeking council authorization

1:23:18for the upcoming issuances.

1:23:20After council authority is received,

1:23:22staff will be working with the city's fiscal agent

1:23:24and external legal council to finalize

1:23:26the debt issuance details,

1:23:28including the amount, term and structure of the issuance.

1:23:32At that point, marked by the vertical line after step four,

1:23:36the city is ready to issue and can pause the process

1:23:39and await a window of opportunity to engage investors.

1:23:42The timing will be determined based

1:23:44on a combination of factors

1:23:45and will be heavily dependent on market factors,

1:23:47including availability of cash flow

1:23:50and investment timings of major government

1:23:52and corporate investors who will be buying our debt.

1:23:55And other economic factors,

1:23:57including Bank of Canada interest rate decisions,

1:24:00employment reports and other impacts on the debt markets.

1:24:04City staff will be working closely with the fiscal agent

1:24:07to choose an opportunity to price

1:24:08and sell the debentures to investors.

1:24:11The next key action from council

1:24:13will be to approve the debenture bylaw

1:24:15after the debenture is priced and sold.

1:24:18This bylaw will detail the debenture,

1:24:20including debt servicing costs,

1:24:22and we will seek approval for the bylaw a few days

1:24:24before the transaction is closed

1:24:26and the proceeds are received.

1:24:31Next, I'd like to introduce you to Dylan Prince,

1:24:35senior corporate analyst, financial strategy

1:24:37on our financial strategy and reporting team.

1:24:39And Dylan will walk you through an orientation

1:24:41on municipal debt and the city's

1:24:43debt policy framework and strategy.

1:24:51Thanks, Shannon.

1:24:52I'm gonna start us off with a review

1:24:54of the legislative framework that municipalities work within

1:24:57when we're issuing debt.

1:25:00The municipal act allows the city to issue debt,

1:25:03but has some restrictions on what the debt can be issued on

1:25:05and how long we can be borrowing for.

1:25:08First, municipalities may only issue debt

1:25:10for capital projects and not for operating expenses.

1:25:14Second, the term of the debenture that is being issued

1:25:17cannot exceed the useful life of the assets

1:25:19that are being financed.

1:25:21These are key considerations that factor

1:25:23into the determination of the debt strategy

1:25:26as it's being prepared during the budget process.

1:25:30So how much debt is the city allowed to issue?

1:25:33Ontario regulation 403 slash 02 sets out the upper limit

1:25:37for annual municipal debt servicing costs.

1:25:40Debt servicing costs includes both principal

1:25:43and interest payments, and the regulation says that

1:25:46the city's principal and interest costs

1:25:47in a given year cannot exceed 25% of own source revenues.

1:25:52Own source revenues are made up of property taxes,

1:25:55utility rate revenues, and user fees.

1:25:58Guelph is well below this limit and is forecasted

1:26:01to remain below this limit for the coming years

1:26:03under the current debt strategy.

1:26:06So from a legislative perspective,

1:26:09the debt strategy is checking the boxes.

1:26:15So in order to issue debt directly to the market,

1:26:19the city obtains a credit rating

1:26:20from an independent credit rating agency.

1:26:26There are several agencies including S&P, Moody's,

1:26:29Fitch's, and DBRS.

1:26:31The credit rating is a tool used by investors

1:26:33to assess investment risk of an organization.

1:26:37City currently has a AAA credit rating rated by S&P,

1:26:41which is the highest possible rating

1:26:42and allows the city to borrow at favorable rates.

1:26:46The credit rating is reviewed every year

1:26:48to indicate the credit quality of the city's debentures.

1:26:53Next we'll talk a bit more about how we determine

1:26:56which capital projects to debt finance.

1:27:00So in November 2024,

1:27:02Council confirmed the 2025 budget and tenure capital plan.

1:27:06This includes the debt strategy,

1:27:07which assigns debt financing to capital projects

1:27:11and also outlines planned debt issuances

1:27:14over the next 10 years.

1:27:16The budget and debt strategy set the roadmap

1:27:19for when the city will go through the debt issuance process

1:27:23and which projects will be financed.

1:27:27The city has a debt management policy in place

1:27:30with the goal of borrowing purposefully and sustainably

1:27:33to moderate the impact of large capital projects

1:27:35on the tax levy and user rates

1:27:37and promote intergenerational equity.

1:27:39It's not practical or desirable

1:27:41for a growing municipality like Guelph

1:27:43to build up the reserve funds

1:27:45to fully fund capital projects.

1:27:47If we saved up for significant long-lived assets

1:27:50before building them,

1:27:51the people paying for the assets

1:27:52would not get the benefit of using them.

1:27:55Using debt financing helps to build

1:27:57infrastructure sooner and spread the costs

1:27:59over a number of years

1:28:00while the community is benefiting from the asset.

1:28:07The C's debt management policy fits

1:28:09within the overall long-term financial framework.

1:28:11While you heard a little earlier

1:28:12about the legislative maximum amount

1:28:14of debt servicing costs,

1:28:15the debt policy outlines additional guardrails

1:28:18to maintain the city's long-term financial flexibility

1:28:20and sustainability while limiting vulnerability.

1:28:24Our policy provides additional limits,

1:28:27which assist in ensuring the city maintains

1:28:29a sound financial position

1:28:31and the city's credit-worthiness is protected.

1:28:36So we have a policy in place to help guide us

1:28:38and it's working.

1:28:39The prudent use of debt as a financing tool

1:28:41has put us in a good position.

1:28:43Guelph has a healthy amount of capacity

1:28:45to finance new infrastructure

1:28:47while borrowing costs represent a very small amount

1:28:49of total expenditure.

1:28:56The chart shows our debt outstanding

1:28:58over the past five years.

1:28:59In 2025, we're approaching the levels of debt

1:29:02that we had before our 2021 debt issuance.

1:29:05The makeup of our current debt has also shifted

1:29:07more heavily towards development,

1:29:08charge and supported debt.

1:29:14The debt strategy in the 2025 confirmed budget outlines

1:29:17which projects have been assigned debt

1:29:18and the year we expect to issue.

1:29:21The debt strategy is a long-term strategy

1:29:23that includes projects that have been approved

1:29:24in previous budgets and projects that are proposed

1:29:27in future budgets.

1:29:29The debt that we're seeking authority to issue today

1:29:31only pertains to projects that were approved

1:29:34through the 2024 and prior budgets.

1:29:37The strategy was developed estimating

1:29:40that the city would be able to borrow

1:29:41approximately $50 million in any year

1:29:43based on the capacity of the market to invest in city bonds

1:29:46and we communicated through the budget process

1:29:49that the actual amount of borrowing in any given year

1:29:51will change with the changing economic environment.

1:29:58Earlier we discussed the annual repayment limit

1:30:00as a regulatory limit.

1:30:02The chart shows our projected debt services,

1:30:04debt servicing levels from the debt strategy

1:30:07as a percentage of own source revenues.

1:30:09The blue line is a regulatory limit

1:30:11and as you can see we're currently well below this limit

1:30:14and projected to remain there.

1:30:19This graph shows a slightly different story.

1:30:21This is the debt to operating revenue

1:30:22from our debt strategy over the next 25 years.

1:30:25Noting that our current debt strategy only goes out 10 years

1:30:28as it aligns to the capital budget period.

1:30:31This chart has two thresholds as depicted

1:30:33by horizontal lines.

1:30:34The top line is our 55% city policy maximum

1:30:39and the lower line is the 30% recommended upper limit

1:30:42from S&P.

1:30:43Our debt strategy has us crossing the S&P limit

1:30:47as early as 2027 which may result in a credit rating

1:30:50reduction as early as this year's review

1:30:52as S&P's forecast period includes the current year

1:30:57plus two additional years.

1:30:59However, we are projecting to stay well below

1:31:02the city policy maximum which will maintain our flexibility.

1:31:09Next we'll take a closer look at the projects

1:31:10that we'll be issuing debt for in 2025 and 2026

1:31:13with the authority that we're seeking approval for.

1:31:18We're requesting authority to issue just over $118 million

1:31:21of debt over 2025 and 2026.

1:31:24This is slightly higher than the $50 million

1:31:27estimated annual cap used in the debt strategy

1:31:30and whether we'll be able to issue the full amount

1:31:33over the next two years will be determined by the market.

1:31:37If we cannot issue the full 118 million,

1:31:40the unissued portion will be the top priority

1:31:42for the issuance in 2027.

1:31:44As mentioned earlier and as outlined on the slide,

1:31:48most of the debt proposed to be issued

1:31:50in over 2025 and 2026 is for the South End Community Center

1:31:54and the Baker District projects.

1:31:56In addition to these two projects,

1:31:58we have a balloon payment for the 2016 dementia issue

1:32:02that's to be refinanced in 2026.

1:32:05So that's also been included on the authority request.

1:32:09You'll notice that we previously issued a portion of the debt

1:32:11for the South End Community Center and the library.

1:32:13This was done through the latest venture issuance in 2021

1:32:16to take advantage of extremely low interest rates

1:32:19that were available at that time.

1:32:21All the debt in the table is part of the debt strategy

1:32:23presented last fall during the budget confirmation process.

1:32:27And the authority requested today is an administrative step

1:32:31that allows staff to execute on the debt strategy

1:32:34through a debenture issuance.

1:32:40This table shows the funding sources

1:32:42that support the $118 million of debt financing.

1:32:46Of the $118 million, $66.4 million is property tax funded.

1:32:50$5 million is rate funded through parking rates

1:32:53and $46.8 million is development charge funded.

1:32:57It's important to note that during the budget process,

1:32:59we also estimate the annual repayments,

1:33:02aka the debt servicing costs for the upcoming debt issuances.

1:33:06We include those debt servicing cost estimates

1:33:08in the reserve fund forecasts

1:33:09that are presented through the budget.

1:33:11The actual debt servicing costs will depend on the timing,

1:33:14term and rate obtained while we issue the debt.

1:33:18But the key thing to know is that the debt payments

1:33:20are already factored into our forecasts.

1:33:26Most of the information we've shown you so far

1:33:28has explained what's led us to today.

1:33:31In the last section of our presentation,

1:33:33we're going to discuss what will happen

1:33:35after a council provides its authority

1:33:37to issue the 2025 and 2026 debt.

1:33:43Subject to council approval on April 23rd,

1:33:45C-staff will engage the city's fiscal agent,

1:33:48National Bank, to execute the financing.

1:33:50As mentioned earlier, the exact timing, date, size

1:33:53and design of the upcoming issuance

1:33:55will be determined through discussions

1:33:57with the fiscal agent and will depend on factors

1:34:01like the market conditions

1:34:03and the prevailing preferences of investors.

1:34:06We're targeting to issue just over $118 million

1:34:11in the next two years,

1:34:12and this is expected to occur over multiple issuances.

1:34:19At this point, I'd like to highlight a few key points

1:34:21we've gone over today.

1:34:22Back in 2021, the city pre-issued some of the debt

1:34:27for the Baker's District and South End Community Center

1:34:29projects.

1:34:30There's $92 million of debt financing remaining

1:34:33to be issued on these two projects,

1:34:35which will be issued over the next two years.

1:34:38With the authority requested of $118 million

1:34:43to the end of 2026,

1:34:44staff will have the flexibility to work with the fiscal agent

1:34:47and choose windows of opportunity

1:34:49for issuances within that time period and that dollar limit.

1:34:56This slide outlines the three recommendations

1:34:59before council today.

1:35:00The first recommendation requests approval to issue debt

1:35:04for the capital projects outlined in table one

1:35:06of the report, the South End Community Center,

1:35:09the Baker's District and the refinancing

1:35:12of the 2016 balloon payment.

1:35:15The second recommendation requests approval

1:35:17for the city treasurer to work with the city's fiscal agent

1:35:20to market the debt up to a maximum authorized amount

1:35:23of $118 million with a maximum term of 20 years.

1:35:28The third recommendation seeks approval to fund the debt

1:35:30servicing costs associated with the new debt

1:35:33from the applicable capital reserve funds.

1:35:41Coming back now to the timeline we showed you near the beginning

1:35:43of the presentation, the two bold steps are council's role

1:35:47in the issuance process.

1:35:49We have provided an overview of all the steps

1:35:51so you can see what we'll be working on in the background

1:35:54between now and the next time you'll hear from us.

1:35:57The next key council action will be approval

1:35:59of the debenture bylaw which will occur

1:36:01after the debentures have been priced and sold

1:36:04but before the transaction closes.

1:36:07The timing of that step is not known right now

1:36:10but we're currently targeting sometime between early May

1:36:13and early July for the first issuance under this authority.

1:36:19At this time we would like to invite any questions

1:36:22from council about the debt issuance process.

1:36:25We're joined today by our fiscal agent Dave Burner

1:36:27who from National Bank, he's on the line to help us answer

1:36:30any of your questions as well as our consultant Craig Dyer

1:36:34who has significant municipal finance and debt expertise

1:36:37and has been an invaluable resource for staff

1:36:40as we work through this process.

1:36:45Thanks Dylan and thanks Shanna.

1:36:47And just before we go to questions I know Councillor Allt

1:36:51is willing to move and Richardson is willing to second

1:36:57so thank you that's officially on the floor

1:36:59of the recommendations then but just before I go to you

1:37:01Councillor Allt just wanna recognize we're doing some

1:37:03recognitions at the beginning.

1:37:05We should recognize Shanna you are now our official.

1:37:10This is I think this is maybe your first meeting

1:37:12as our general manager finance.

1:37:15I think so.

1:37:16I think so too.

1:37:17Thank you.

1:37:18So clap for you as well in your new role.

1:37:22Keep the interest rates low for us.

1:37:25Okay so congrats to you and thank you again

1:37:29for both of you for the presentation.

1:37:30Councillor Allt you can kick us off with some questions.

1:37:33Thank you very much Mayor Dethry.

1:37:35Hopefully my questions will be short

1:37:37but I think they do speak to the debenture issue

1:37:41which I'm quite happy to move.

1:37:44I think staff has been a phenomenal job

1:37:46of explaining the rationale for this.

1:37:50And I'll start off with the preface.

1:37:52The debt issue clearly is identified

1:37:55that we're in a strong financial position.

1:37:57And I'm wondering first of all,

1:38:00does the uptake on a debenture actually show further

1:38:04confidence from the market in the city?

1:38:08Perhaps that's for Mr. Burner

1:38:10or some of our outside consultants.

1:38:15Thank you.

1:38:16Yeah through the mayor I would like to ask Dave Burner

1:38:19to respond to that.

1:38:20He's the best person I believe.

1:38:32Hi David it's Mayor Guthrie.

1:38:33We can see you on the screen there

1:38:35as then there's your camera.

1:38:36And can you speak for us

1:38:38just to make sure we can hear you?

1:38:42Okay no that's not working.

1:38:46I don't see the mute button that's on for you

1:38:48but yeah we just can't hear you yet.

1:38:56Do you want to maybe try unplugging your headset

1:38:59and then maybe it might just pick up naturally

1:39:01from your laptop?

1:39:07Try unmuting now.

1:39:08Oh no there you go.

1:39:11For me?

1:39:11We can.

1:39:12Oh beautiful.

1:39:13Did I actually fix that or was that?

1:39:17I know it wasn't me I'm not that good.

1:39:20Cause that's pretty good.

1:39:22I feel pretty good about that

1:39:23cause I'm not good on that stuff at all.

1:39:25So you go ahead we can hear you go for it.

1:39:29Through your worship to the councillor.

1:39:33Councillor could you just please

1:39:34re-ask that question as long as I've lost my train of thought.

1:39:39Absolutely that's technology for you.

1:39:42And I believe that the uptake on a dementia

1:39:45can actually show further confidence of the market

1:39:49in a city is that correct?

1:39:51That is absolutely correct yes.

1:39:56There's a number of factors that would influence

1:40:02how well absorbed, how well as you use the term uptake

1:40:09that would affect that.

1:40:11But one of them certainly is confidence

1:40:15that investors have.

1:40:17The city has a wonderful AAA rating.

1:40:20That opens the door to a broad let's say,

1:40:26for lack of a better term,

1:40:27a broad stable of prospective investors in that.

1:40:31And so you should find an incremental appetite

1:40:39just by the AAA alone.

1:40:40So you've got a lot confirming investor confidence

1:40:46in the city's financial health and economic health.

1:40:50Thank you because it strikes me that often people think

1:40:52debt is a bad word.

1:40:54But what we're identifying here is that this is debt backed

1:40:59by a city or municipality that's been identified

1:41:03as being financially capable of backing the debt

1:41:07without problems.

1:41:09Absolutely.

1:41:10Okay.

1:41:11Now the other question for you

1:41:12and then I think the next are for city staff.

1:41:16The one concern that I do have,

1:41:18it's not much of a concern,

1:41:19but it does have to regrettably address issues

1:41:22so through the border.

1:41:24Is there any notion yet from anyone about the impact

1:41:29on debenture issues in a tariff climate?

1:41:36Again, through your worship to the counselor.

1:41:41The impact is going to be felt in the level

1:41:45of interest rates to start with.

1:41:48And one of the bases of your interest rate,

1:41:51of your cost of borrowing structure will be,

1:41:53first of all, there's a government of Canada yield.

1:41:57And then we layer on top of that province of Ontario

1:42:00where we dwell.

1:42:02And then the city's credit rating, it's a little bit more.

1:42:06So as what we're reading about in the paper day

1:42:10and in day out with the terrorists from,

1:42:13that have been threatened by Mr. Trump to the south of us,

1:42:17they are impacting the government of Canada yields.

1:42:21The city's credit strength and the component

1:42:29of your cost of borrowing that's affected

1:42:31by the city's credit strength hasn't changed.

1:42:33It's rock solid.

1:42:35It's what are the, you know,

1:42:38what is the government of Canada rates doing?

1:42:40If they go up because of threat of inflation,

1:42:43everybody's cost of borrowing is going to go up.

1:42:46If they go down because there's the concerns

1:42:51about the economy globally,

1:42:54and there's going to be a need

1:42:56for the federal government to drop rates,

1:42:59then everybody's going to enjoy a lower cost of borrowing.

1:43:02It will not really at this stand,

1:43:04as I speak right now, as we're chatting right now,

1:43:08it's not impacting your ability to come to market.

1:43:11There's a very robust appetite out there

1:43:14for quality Canadian municipal adventures.

1:43:19Thank you very much.

1:43:20I actually asked those because I generally knew the answer,

1:43:23but I think it's important for the public to hear that one.

1:43:26Through to our staff, the one curiosity that I have,

1:43:30do we have any indication of our debt issue percentage

1:43:37relative to other municipalities

1:43:40or is it just based on projects at a time?

1:43:44I noticed that we're, I think about 25%,

1:43:48we could be up to 55%,

1:43:50but I don't know what other communities

1:43:51actually are traditionally issuing.

1:43:56Through the mayor to councillor Alte,

1:43:58we do actually get information reporting

1:44:02through the financial information return,

1:44:04and I don't have that comparison handy right now,

1:44:07but we do get comparative information

1:44:11that we can share, certainly.

1:44:13That would be great if I just get it at some point.

1:44:15Appreciate it.

1:44:16Thanks very much to staff.

1:44:18Those are all my questions.

1:44:20Thank you.

1:44:21Are there any other follow-up questions

1:44:22before I call the vote?

1:44:25No?

1:44:26Okay, I only have one then.

1:44:29This is going to sound weird coming from me,

1:44:32but is there any strategy that's being thought of

1:44:37in regards to heavy infrastructure funding

1:44:43that may flow because of all the uncertainty

1:44:47that's happening from the provincial

1:44:49and the federal government,

1:44:52where we would, as a city, have to step up to the plate

1:44:57and potentially contribute to funding agreements

1:45:01with infrastructure funding that might flow,

1:45:03and is there the ability for us to manage that

1:45:10if that comes to fruition in the moment,

1:45:15or would you come back to us

1:45:18for those types of opportunities at that time?

1:45:21Sometimes these types of infrastructure funding

1:45:24opportunities come down like a third, a third,

1:45:26from the upper levels of government,

1:45:29and we have to show that we have funds

1:45:31to be able to move forward on a lot of things.

1:45:33So I just want to know the capacity that we currently have,

1:45:37or if we need to look at further debenture opportunities

1:45:41if those opportunities present themselves.

1:45:46Through the mayor, so we have a very ambitious capital plan

1:45:50laid out, and we have lots of infrastructure projects

1:45:53in there that we would love to have

1:45:56additional grant funding, or very low-cost lending,

1:46:01potentially, to move some of those things forward

1:46:03over the next several years.

1:46:05And so I think we would be looking,

1:46:08depending on what kind of funding opportunities

1:46:10become available, we would be looking to respond,

1:46:13examining what projects are already in our capital budget

1:46:16that we can move forward,

1:46:19and what that would mean in terms of potentially

1:46:21reprioritization, but we would definitely,

1:46:23I don't think it would,

1:46:25it certainly wouldn't exclude us from that

1:46:27by taking this step today.

1:46:29This is really an administrative step.

1:46:32The capital budget decision on the projects

1:46:36that the debt is being issued for

1:46:37was made several years ago,

1:46:39and so this is really just closing that loop.

1:46:43Okay, thank you.

1:46:44All right, just one extra comment.

1:46:46I just want to say thank you so much

1:46:47for the way you've presented this.

1:46:49It's like really held everyone's hands

1:46:51sort of through the process.

1:46:53To really understand it.

1:46:56I just want to give credit where credits do here as well.

1:46:59I'm talking 15 years ago or more, like more.

1:47:01Like 20 years ago, there's been steady financial decisions,

1:47:07policies that have been put into place,

1:47:10the right staff at the right time,

1:47:12to really manage through to this day.

1:47:15When you hear a third party person,

1:47:16such as Dave that was on the phone,

1:47:19and others that are here,

1:47:20and other consultants that you've talked to,

1:47:22outside credit agencies and such,

1:47:25continually praise the city for the steadiness

1:47:28and the financial maturity that we have.

1:47:32I just want to give credit to staff,

1:47:33especially where they've really brought us to this moment.

1:47:37So thank you very, very much for what you've done.

1:47:41And then finally, I just want to say the chart

1:47:43that was in the presentation there

1:47:45that outlined the DC funding portion.

1:47:48I just think that was really important to highlight.

1:47:50I think to this day,

1:47:51and my council colleagues will probably still agree,

1:47:54whenever you hear about large capital project numbers,

1:47:58people just automatically default.

1:48:00I don't blame them at all, by the way, to be like,

1:48:02oh my gosh, my property taxes are paying for,

1:48:06you know, $120 million South End Rec Center.

1:48:11And really, at the end of the day,

1:48:14it's actually like, you know,

1:48:1590% of that is paid for by development charges,

1:48:18approximately.

1:48:19So it's a very important thing to say,

1:48:24to have that column there that shows

1:48:27that it's not all just debt,

1:48:28all just interest and debt financing,

1:48:31and all on the backs of property taxpayers,

1:48:33and the burden is only put on them.

1:48:35It's just very good that you showed it

1:48:38in the way that you did with that chart.

1:48:39So thank you.

1:48:40I think we should all remind people of that a little bit

1:48:43when we hear some information that can float around

1:48:47out in the public realm a little bit on that.

1:48:48So with that, I will call the vote then,

1:48:52is anyone against?

1:48:55That's unanimous.

1:48:56Thank you very much.

1:48:57Appreciate that.

1:48:59The second one is the municipal service

1:49:01and financing agreements,

1:49:03more financing stuff today, everybody.

1:49:07So we're gonna have, again, another presentation,

1:49:09and we're gonna get into this, you know,

1:49:14called front-ending agreement opportunities,

1:49:16which is really great,

1:49:20really great for us to be waiting into.

1:49:23So, Shanna, I think, are you kicking it off again for us?

1:49:27Yeah, okay.

1:49:29And we have one piece of correspondence there as well

1:49:32that was attached, so I'll leave it up to you to start off.

1:49:38Okay, thank you very much.

1:49:40Excuse me, and good afternoon again,

1:49:43Mayor Guthrie and members of council.

1:49:45So today we are bringing you back work

1:49:47that you directed us to do about a year and a half ago

1:49:49on municipal service and financing agreements,

1:49:52or as we will refer to them today, MSFAs.

1:49:56So today I'm joined by Kevin Yuraskovich,

1:49:58a senior corporate analyst, financial strategy

1:50:00on our financial strategy and reporting team,

1:50:03who has been the project manager of this work,

1:50:05and Craig Binning, our consultant from Hemsin Consulting.

1:50:09You will hear from both of them in a few minutes,

1:50:11but I'll provide a bit of introductory information

1:50:14before handing it over to them.

1:50:20In today's committee of the whole agenda package,

1:50:22there's a staff report accompanied by a draft MSFA policy.

1:50:27Today's presentation will highlight some of the key items

1:50:29from both the report and the draft policy,

1:50:32including background and risk assessment,

1:50:35an overview of key policy elements,

1:50:37and proposed fees and implementation plan.

1:50:46The first thing we want to do is set the context

1:50:48and provide a little bit of background information.

1:50:51So as council is aware, development charges

1:50:53are the primary funding source

1:50:55for growth enabling infrastructure

1:50:56and amenities for our community.

1:50:59Back in October, 2023, as we were working

1:51:01through the DC background study and bylaw update,

1:51:04council provided direction to explore

1:51:06front end financing agreements as a tool

1:51:08to speed up development.

1:51:10The policy that we are proposing today

1:51:12responds to this direction,

1:51:14and this work directly aligns

1:51:16with the strategic plan city building objective

1:51:18to improve housing supply.

1:51:24The purpose of the MSFA policy is threefold.

1:51:28The first, and I would say arguably,

1:51:31maybe the most important,

1:51:32is to accelerate housing development.

1:51:35And so as we do that, as we work toward that objective,

1:51:39we want to minimize risks and minimize financial impacts

1:51:41to tax and rate payers,

1:51:43and we want to provide clarity, transparency,

1:51:45and fairness for all parties entering

1:51:47into these agreements with us.

1:51:50So in a few minutes, Craig and Kevin will walk you

1:51:52through the policy elements that were put in place

1:51:55in service of these objectives.

1:51:57But before that, I'll provide a brief overview

1:51:59of the work that has been done

1:52:01to put together the policy

1:52:03that's before you for consideration.

1:52:08So this slide provides a high-level overview

1:52:10of the project timeline

1:52:11for developing the proposed policy.

1:52:13As mentioned, council provided direction

1:52:15to staff back in October of 2023

1:52:18to explore front end financing

1:52:20after the DC background study

1:52:22and bylaw update work was completed.

1:52:25In January, 2024, council approved the DC study

1:52:28and bylaw update, and the new bylaw

1:52:30went into effect last March.

1:52:32In April, HEMSEN Consulting was retained

1:52:34as the consultant to support this work

1:52:36in collaboration with an internal project team

1:52:39coordinated by finance and including representatives

1:52:41from planning, engineering, legal, and parks.

1:52:45In June, 2024, a review of the legislative framework

1:52:48for front end financing was completed by HEMSEN,

1:52:51and in July, they prepared a memo

1:52:52outlining policy considerations.

1:52:55The first external engagement point occurred

1:52:57in September, 2024 with a discussion

1:53:01on policy priorities, sorry, policy principles.

1:53:06This work and engagement informed the consultant's report

1:53:08which was released as an attachment

1:53:10to a council information report last October,

1:53:14and the information report also provided an update

1:53:16on the work done to date at that point in time.

1:53:20Throughout the fall, the policy was drafted

1:53:22and released on the city's have your say

1:53:24engagement website, and another external engagement session

1:53:27was held in November, 2024 to present information

1:53:30and gather feedback.

1:53:32Feedback was incorporated by the project team,

1:53:35and in February, the draft policy

1:53:37underwent internal strategic level review.

1:53:40That brings us to today where we are presenting

1:53:42the draft policy for council consideration and feedback

1:53:45ahead of the anticipated approval at the end of the month.

1:53:48And so at this time, I will turn it over to Craig Binning

1:53:51from HEMSEN Consulting to walk you through

1:53:53the next part of the presentation.

1:54:04Thank you, Shannon.

1:54:05It's a pleasure to be before council this afternoon.

1:54:07I'm just gonna cover off a few slides here for you.

1:54:09I'm gonna start with the legislative framework.

1:54:12We're working under the Development Charges Act,

1:54:14and as I think many in the room know,

1:54:15the Development Charges Act is a highly prescriptive

1:54:18piece of legislation.

1:54:19When it comes to doing things of what we often refer

1:54:22to as front-end financing arrangements,

1:54:24as was introduced here, this is an opportunity

1:54:27where we wanna work collectively

1:54:28with the development industry to deliver housing

1:54:31and enabling infrastructure sooner

1:54:33to allow for increased supply of housing.

1:54:36One of the, I've got up on the screen here,

1:54:38the key provisions under the legislation.

1:54:41Section 44 of the Act is actually the formal provisions

1:54:45for front-ending agreements.

1:54:47As it turns out, it's a highly prescriptive

1:54:50provision set of provisions.

1:54:52It's administratively onerous,

1:54:54and it also has very broad appeal powers.

1:54:57Because of all of those factors,

1:54:59it's actually very rarely used and not favored

1:55:03by either municipalities or the development industry.

1:55:06I have not seen a formal front-ending agreement

1:55:08for some years, more than 10.

1:55:10What is often used is Section 38 of the Act.

1:55:14Section 38 allows the city to enter into agreements

1:55:18with municipalities for the delivery or the funding

1:55:21of that key infrastructure, and then allows that developer,

1:55:26and it could be developers who front-ended the works

1:55:28to receive development charge credits or reimbursements

1:55:32through the development charge reserve fund

1:55:34for the works that they front-end finance.

1:55:36So they're advancing the timing of infrastructure,

1:55:39and they're balancing that off with receiving credits

1:55:42for the works that they're doing.

1:55:44The policy that has been developed here

1:55:46is really founded around Section 38.

1:55:50There is one other section that's sometimes used

1:55:52for front-end financing arrangements, that's Section 27.

1:55:56Section 27 allows municipalities, including the city,

1:56:00to enter into agreements with the developers

1:56:03to pay for development charges at points

1:56:05other than the normal collection point,

1:56:07which is typically building permit.

1:56:09So under front-end financing arrangements,

1:56:11especially for very large projects,

1:56:13like the financing of a sewer treatment expansion,

1:56:16if there's a wide range of benefiting landowners,

1:56:19and the municipality doesn't have the fiscal capacity

1:56:22to do it, they can enter into a series of front-end

1:56:25DC payment agreements to advance the timing of that work.

1:56:28We have not used that in this policy,

1:56:30but that continues to be a tool available to the city.

1:56:33But as I say, it's more rarely used.

1:56:39What I'd like to focus on now is some policy considerations.

1:56:42This is the kind of policy that stretches across

1:56:44a number of departments within the city,

1:56:46and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank

1:56:49your excellent staff for the hard work

1:56:50that they've done putting into this policy.

1:56:52It's been a pleasure working with them.

1:56:54And it really started with the planning folks

1:56:56because it really is about delivering infrastructure

1:56:59to advanced housing.

1:57:00So we want to make sure that planning is involved

1:57:03in that process and developing the policy and applying it,

1:57:06because these can be used on a city-wide basis

1:57:09or on sub-areas, and they can be used in green-filled areas

1:57:12or in infill areas.

1:57:14So planning plays an important part

1:57:16in establishing the policy and in implementing it.

1:57:19And of course, because we're dealing with infrastructure,

1:57:22we're also heavily dependent upon engineering.

1:57:25The vast majority of front-end financing arrangements

1:57:27deal with roads, sewer, water, or stormwater management work.

1:57:30So engineering is critical in terms

1:57:32of developing that policy, but also

1:57:34will be very important players in terms of administering

1:57:37and implementing it when agreements are arrived at.

1:57:40The city has also used and partnered with the development

1:57:43industry for the delivery of park development

1:57:46in advance of developments occurring.

1:57:49And so we framed the policy to allow

1:57:51for that same kind of activity.

1:57:53Developers do some initial front-end work

1:57:55as part of a condition of their development agreements,

1:57:57but actually developing the parkland

1:57:59is largely funded through development charges.

1:58:02So once again, we incorporated in parks

1:58:04into the development of the policy.

1:58:07And then of course, legal is also critical to this.

1:58:09We need them to make sure that the policy that we're

1:58:12putting together meets all of the tests of the city,

1:58:14and also we're drafting a generic agreement,

1:58:16and they will have significant input into that process.

1:58:20And every time an agreement is entered into,

1:58:22legal will play an important part.

1:58:25And of course, finance is critical as well,

1:58:27and they're critical in many ways.

1:58:29They are going to be there to assess the policy,

1:58:32ensure that we're balancing out risk,

1:58:33and identifying risk appropriately.

1:58:35They will also be involved in establishing the agreement

1:58:38and managing and monitoring the DC credits and the DC

1:58:42Reserve Fund over the life of the agreement.

1:58:45That last point that I just mentioned about risk

1:58:48is really quite critical, because risk

1:58:51is a fundamental consideration of front-end financing.

1:58:53And really what we're trying to do here

1:58:55is balance out the risk between the municipality

1:58:58and the development industry together

1:59:00with delivering that housing enabling infrastructure

1:59:02and delivering housing earlier.

1:59:05Some of the risks that can be involved

1:59:07is that by advancing the timing of infrastructure,

1:59:11it can mean if the development doesn't occur at the same rate

1:59:14and pace that you're incurring additional operating costs.

1:59:17So we want to balance that out.

1:59:19It also can mean that if you're encouraging growth

1:59:21in one area that wasn't anticipated within the time

1:59:23frames, it may be displacing growth that would have occurred

1:59:27elsewhere in the city impacting on the timing

1:59:29of the delivery of infrastructure and housing

1:59:31elsewhere in the city.

1:59:34It also can make challenges because now we're advancing

1:59:36projects, whereas you still need to undertake the works

1:59:39identified in your tenure capital plan.

1:59:41And so we want to make sure that you've got the capacity

1:59:44to deliver that program.

1:59:46Then there's also finally the risk

1:59:48that the agreement itself and the policy has ambiguity

1:59:52or is it difficult to administer.

1:59:54I want to assure you that what we've done through this policy

1:59:57is try to mitigate and manage all of those risks

2:00:00and identify those so that when actual agreements are

2:00:03entered into, they're solid and you've managed that risk.

2:00:06And hopefully it results in the delivery

2:00:08of critical infrastructure to help deliver housing.

2:00:12And with those comments, I'll pass it on to Kevin.

2:00:22Thank you very much for walking us through your analysis.

2:00:26Before getting into the policy elements,

2:00:27we have one more risk to address.

2:00:30Council directed staff to investigate

2:00:32whether entering into front-ending type agreements

2:00:35would be expected to impact the city's credit rating.

2:00:38Staff assessed this risk through consultation with S&P

2:00:41and other municipalities.

2:00:43We assessed that there would be minimal impact

2:00:46on the credit rating from these agreements.

2:00:48There are more details in the staff report,

2:00:50but the main reason for our assessment

2:00:52is that S&P only looks at rated debt

2:00:54when evaluating the debt burden.

2:00:57Since the obligations under the MSFA are not rated debt,

2:01:01it would not be included in the debt burden metric.

2:01:04Moreover, the works advanced under the MSFA

2:01:07would not be at a scale to impact

2:01:09the overall capital expenditure metric.

2:01:19Getting into the policy elements.

2:01:26As Mizzow Dwyer outlined at the top of the presentation,

2:01:29the purpose of this policy is to accelerate housing

2:01:32and promote financial viability.

2:01:35We created a guiding principle section

2:01:38to make clear in this policy

2:01:39that this is about building more housing.

2:01:42This policy is not about substituting

2:01:44one housing project for another.

2:01:46Therefore, these agreements cannot cause the deferral

2:01:48of higher priority projects.

2:01:51Moreover, the amount of staff effort

2:01:53that will go into these agreements,

2:01:56with the amount of staff effort

2:01:58that will go into these agreements,

2:01:59preference will be given to projects

2:02:01that unlock many homes to ensure time is well spent

2:02:04to promote housing.

2:02:07The guiding principle section also outlines the parameters

2:02:10for considering the financial impacts of the project.

2:02:14We established parameters to make sure

2:02:15that the project relies on the revenues

2:02:17it generates as much as possible.

2:02:27The policy is designed to be flexible

2:02:29in the development application process.

2:02:32That being said, the policy encourages staff

2:02:34and developers to discuss options as early as possible

2:02:37for both parties to be coordinating

2:02:39on advancing housing projects.

2:02:41The first step to an MSFA is considering

2:02:43whether there is any infrastructure required

2:02:46to support the proposed development.

2:02:49If so, and if the developer would like infrastructure

2:02:53to be built sooner, the developer is required

2:02:55to submit an initial application

2:02:58to the city for consideration.

2:03:01A city staff panel will complete a high level review

2:03:04and assess the merits of the application

2:03:06in comparison with the policy requirements

2:03:08and make a recommendation as to whether the developer

2:03:10should advance to the detailed application stage.

2:03:15The detailed application stage requires the developer

2:03:17to create a project work plan that is approved

2:03:21by the city engineer.

2:03:23By the city engineer.

2:03:24At this stage, the staff will also refine analysis

2:03:29of the housing and financial impacts,

2:03:31including calculation of DC credits, DC reimbursements

2:03:35and non-growth cost reimbursements.

2:03:38More on that later in the presentation.

2:03:47The policy also outlines a few mandatory requirements

2:03:50to help further remove ambiguity.

2:03:55Entering into these agreements are at the discretion

2:03:57of the city and the city is not obligated

2:04:00to enter into these agreements,

2:04:01even if all the policy criteria are met.

2:04:05To receive a DC credit, a developer must enter

2:04:08into an MSFA with the city under this policy.

2:04:11There are no exceptions.

2:04:14And any work done ahead of the application

2:04:17and agreement process would be

2:04:18at the developer's own cost and risk.

2:04:23A provision that's crucially important

2:04:24for administering the policy is that in a situation

2:04:27where there is more than one developer entering

2:04:30into an MSFA, the developer must create a developer trust

2:04:34and appoint a trustee so that the city is entering

2:04:37into one agreement with one party.

2:04:40Different developers may play different roles

2:04:42in advancing infrastructure, but we do not want

2:04:44to be in a place where we need to figure out

2:04:46who to pay and how much.

2:04:49Instead, the funds change of their trust agreement.

2:05:03There are two paths that an MSFA can take

2:05:06to advance housing enabling infrastructure.

2:05:09With a city led project, the developer provides

2:05:12the financing for the city to build the infrastructure

2:05:14needed to support the developers housing project.

2:05:18With a developer led project, the developer both finances

2:05:22and builds the city infrastructure.

2:05:25Local services like local streets

2:05:26and subdivision are built by developers currently.

2:05:31This policy extends that concept to build projects

2:05:34outside that category.

2:05:36So just like when we build local services,

2:05:38the developer would be responsible for delivering

2:05:41the project and the city would still have significant

2:05:43role to play in reviewing and improving the work plans

2:05:46and inspecting the progress made to ensure

2:05:48that it meets the city's standards.

2:05:51In both paths of advancing housing enabling infrastructure,

2:05:56the developer will be repaid for financing

2:06:00the advancement of the work.

2:06:08The repayment terms fall into three different categories.

2:06:13Development charge credits, development charge reimbursements

2:06:17and non-growth cost reimbursements.

2:06:21Development charge credits are repaid

2:06:22with the issuance of building permits.

2:06:25In terms of cash flow, this means the obligation

2:06:27to repay the developer occurs as the city receives

2:06:31the development charge collections

2:06:33from the developer's own project.

2:06:36The faster the developer builds housing,

2:06:38the faster the developer will be repaid

2:06:40and sending housing development to occur quickly.

2:06:44Development charge reimbursements occur

2:06:47when the project will serve a development

2:06:49beyond the developers who financed it.

2:06:52In this case, the growth funded portion of the project

2:06:56exceeds the development charge credits.

2:06:59Development charge reimbursements are paid based

2:07:01on the portionate share of the development charge collections

2:07:05of the benefiting area and only start once we reach the year

2:07:09the project was scheduled to be undertaken

2:07:13in the city's capital budget.

2:07:16For non-growth costs reimbursements,

2:07:20they occur when the project includes an infrastructure renewal

2:07:24or service enhancement component

2:07:26that benefits the existing development.

2:07:29These costs are primarily paid by property taxes

2:07:32and utility rates and like DC reimbursements,

2:07:38they would not occur before the city

2:07:42would have undertaken the project in the capital budget.

2:07:46As we know, the city's capital budget forecasts

2:07:49are dynamic documents and projects

2:07:54may be advanced or deferred depending on evolving priorities,

2:07:58funding availability and operational considerations.

2:08:02Entering into an MSFA that exceeds the DC credible amount

2:08:06will commit the city to a repayment schedule

2:08:09and will remove the flexibility to defer that project

2:08:13to respond to other priorities or funding constraints.

2:08:23How much the city repays under the MSFA

2:08:26is a keystone policy piece.

2:08:29I'm sitting conducted a scan of different approaches

2:08:32municipalities have taken in repaying the developer

2:08:34for their work and we found approaches

2:08:36broadly fall into three broad categories.

2:08:40On one end of the spectrum is to repay based on

2:08:43the cost estimate in the development charge background

2:08:45study.

2:08:47Staff felt that this was too restrictive

2:08:49as estimated costs evolve over time

2:08:51and the policy should give room to refine our estimates.

2:08:55On the other end of the spectrum is to repay

2:08:58actual costs of doing the work.

2:09:00Staff felt that this approach was too permissive

2:09:04as staff do not manage the day to day delivery

2:09:06of the infrastructure project.

2:09:08This approach would create a significant financial risk

2:09:12for the city as it would essentially be

2:09:14like issuing a blank check.

2:09:16It would be too onerous to validate the actual costs

2:09:19of delivering the work.

2:09:21The middle option is to repay based on the work plan

2:09:24created by the developer and reviewed by the city.

2:09:27This enables us to reach an agreement

2:09:29on the reasonable cost of doing the work,

2:09:31determining the cost upfront allows the city

2:09:34to conduct financial analysis on the viability

2:09:36of the project as well.

2:09:39So this is the approach that we landed on in the policy.

2:09:42They agreed upon work plan.

2:09:52This policy also includes delegated authority structure

2:09:55for authorizing MSFAs.

2:09:57It allows the city treasure to approve agreements

2:09:59under the following circumstances.

2:10:02The project is included in both the DC background study

2:10:04and the capital budget and forecast.

2:10:07The project costs agreed to in the work plan

2:10:09does not exceed the amount included in the project

2:10:14included for the project in the capital budget.

2:10:17And 70% or more of the anticipated DC collections

2:10:20that will pay for the project are to come

2:10:22from the developers that are party to the agreement.

2:10:27For any agreement that despite meeting these requirements

2:10:31but staff believe have may require a council approval.

2:10:41So I'm moving to proposed fees.

2:10:47The proposed application fee structure

2:10:49is outlined on this slide and aligns

2:10:52with the progressive application process.

2:10:55The proposed initial application fee is $1,500.

2:11:01This is to undertake a high level feasibility assessment

2:11:03and determine if there is merit

2:11:05in pursuing a more detailed application.

2:11:08The detailed application fee is 1%

2:11:10of the estimated cost of the project

2:11:12up to a maximum of $20,000.

2:11:15This fee is estimated to not fully cover

2:11:18the staff time required to complete the application review.

2:11:20More on that on the next slide.

2:11:22There are additional fees for any external legal

2:11:26or consulting support required on a cost recovery basis.

2:11:30Finally, once an agreement is reached,

2:11:32the cost of the work plan review

2:11:35and the construction monitoring will be recovered

2:11:37through a 6% fee of the estimated cost of the project.

2:11:42For clarity, that 6% fee would be considered part

2:11:45of the project cost and would be recoverable

2:11:48by the developer through DC credits and reimbursements.

2:11:52The time required to review and analyze applications,

2:12:04approve work plans and enter into and manage agreements

2:12:07is expected to be highly variable depending on the complexity

2:12:11and specifics of any given application.

2:12:14Regardless, there is expected to be considerable investment

2:12:19in staff time required to review, analyze

2:12:23and negotiate agreements, particularly

2:12:25in the first few agreements as internal expertise is developed.

2:12:30The work requires detailed knowledge

2:12:32of the city's planning and engineering documents

2:12:35and processes and it cannot simply be undertaken

2:12:38by newly hired or temporary staff.

2:12:42Depending on the timing of interest expressed

2:12:45by the development community to enter into an MSFA,

2:12:48staff will explore hiring temporary staff

2:12:51to backstop impacted departments using a combination

2:12:54of fee revenue and housing accelerator grant funding.

2:12:59Staff are recommending a phased approach

2:13:01to implement the MSFA policy, limiting the rollout

2:13:05to initially one agreement with the developer or developer

2:13:08trust.

2:13:09This will provide us with an important learning opportunity

2:13:11and the ability to recommend any policy updates

2:13:14to council prior to opening up applications widely.

2:13:21MSFA's implementation will allow time

2:13:24to understand the staff time involved

2:13:26and to make any recommendations required

2:13:28to appropriately be staffed for full implementation

2:13:30while managing other competing housing

2:13:34and affordability priorities.

2:13:40So the next step here is to take in the feedback

2:13:43from council and the community on the proposed policy

2:13:46and incorporating any required adjustments, if any,

2:13:50prior to council approval at the end of the month.

2:13:55Great.

2:13:57Thank you very much.

2:13:59Really appreciate it.

2:14:00As I said at the offset, there was correspondence attached.

2:14:03No delegations, but Councillor Busuttil,

2:14:06you're willing to move this and is there a seconder

2:14:09for this?

2:14:10Okay, downer would do that.

2:14:11Thank you.

2:14:13Thank you.

2:14:14How about this is that moment for feedback?

2:14:17So it is for staff to take away before approval

2:14:19at the end of the month.

2:14:20Is there anything that you want to raise

2:14:22at this point council or is everything on the right track

2:14:25so we can let it come back?

2:14:27Looks like everything's on the right track.

2:14:28Nope, maybe we'll go to Councillor Clausson.

2:14:34Yes, I just have a question.

2:14:36Is that okay?

2:14:37Yeah, for sure.

2:14:39Okay, so it's with regard to the front ending of agreements,

2:14:43specifically with regard to the Mademy letter as an example,

2:14:47my question is how many projects have potentially opened up

2:14:52in the short term with front ending of agreements?

2:14:56Thanks.

2:15:03Oh, sorry, through the mayor,

2:15:05I don't have an estimate at this time.

2:15:07It will really depend I think on the development process

2:15:10and I'm not sure if DCL Holmes has any additional insight.

2:15:15Through the mayor to council class tonight,

2:15:17as Mr. Dwyer mentioned,

2:15:20it really does depend on the development community.

2:15:23I know that we have had some really good discussions

2:15:26with them as we have developed this policy.

2:15:28So I know there is interest there.

2:15:30I think everyone can appreciate

2:15:32just some of the uncertainty in the market right now.

2:15:35They are feeling that as well, of course,

2:15:37so we'll continue those discussions

2:15:39and we can see which projects make sense for them

2:15:42and also coordinating back with us to make sure

2:15:45that there's fully coordinated

2:15:47with our capital plan as well.

2:15:51Great, thank you.

2:15:52Thank you, Councillor Clausson.

2:15:54Well, with that, okay, Billings go ahead

2:15:58and then I just have a couple of questions

2:16:00and then I'll call the vote.

2:16:01So through you, Mr. Mayor,

2:16:03so this is all about accelerating growth.

2:16:08So if we get application application

2:16:11and we're building faster,

2:16:13because now more than ever,

2:16:16we have a higher DC shortfall.

2:16:20So by accelerating growth, are we not,

2:16:24so I'm talking about the operating side of our budget,

2:16:26are we not increasing that DC shortfall

2:16:30and that's going to be an impact on our budget?

2:16:36Through the mayor, I think Councillor Billings,

2:16:38are you referring to like development charge

2:16:40exemptions and discounts?

2:16:43Essentially, yes.

2:16:46So that the impact on any specific project

2:16:50and development will be considered

2:16:52and any impacts for exemptions or discounts that may apply

2:16:57would all be considered at the time of the agreement process.

2:17:01So we will have that information

2:17:03to make decisions based on.

2:17:06Okay, so within our budget,

2:17:08we do have an amount for the DC shortfall, okay?

2:17:13So if we're going to be accelerating the growth

2:17:16and you find out that we don't have that much money

2:17:20in our budget to accommodate accelerating the growth,

2:17:24is that when staff would pause and not accept an agreement?

2:17:34So the timing of development charge exemptions

2:17:39is based on the specific development

2:17:42that attracts those exemptions.

2:17:45And so accelerating growth through an MSFA policy

2:17:50will not necessarily accelerate those exemptions

2:17:53depending on what is being built.

2:17:55If it's an affordable housing development

2:17:58that is willing to enter into an agreement with us

2:18:00for 25 years, that would attract an exemption

2:18:02or if it's purpose built rental,

2:18:04that would attract a discount.

2:18:06And so that would drive potentially extra costs

2:18:10on the tax and rate supported budgets, absolutely,

2:18:14if there are going to be exemptions or discounts,

2:18:17but that will be evaluated as part of the agreement

2:18:21or application and agreement process.

2:18:23Okay, and then through your worship,

2:18:26there was the comment about hiring extra,

2:18:29like say temporary staff.

2:18:32Has that been built into the budget

2:18:34or would that be an addition for the 2026 budget?

2:18:41Through the mayor, we're not at this point

2:18:43recommending any addition.

2:18:45It's very difficult to determine

2:18:47how much staff time will be needed at what point in time

2:18:50because it's dependent on which agreements

2:18:53which developers come forward

2:18:54and how significant those and complex those agreements are.

2:18:58And so at this point, we're recommending

2:19:00or we're taking the approach of considering

2:19:03leaving the door open to hiring temporary staff

2:19:06to backfill if we need it using,

2:19:09we will have some fee revenue coming in

2:19:11to help cover those costs.

2:19:12And we would consider potentially looking

2:19:15to the housing accelerator fund grant

2:19:17if there are funds that could be reallocated

2:19:20to that purpose, if this is the highest priority

2:19:23used to move forward units.

2:19:25Okay, and then the last question through your worship,

2:19:29it's about the agreed upon work plan.

2:19:32So let's just say there's the agreement,

2:19:37if everything's moving forward,

2:19:38but there's issues arise market

2:19:41or other outside forces happen

2:19:45and the project can't meet the timelines by the developer.

2:19:50What, I wasn't clear.

2:19:51Do we have an exit strategy

2:19:54when something like that would happen?

2:20:02Yes, I'd be pleased to answer that question

2:20:04through the mayor.

2:20:04We've into the draft agreement that we're developing,

2:20:07there are provisions there for if certain tests

2:20:10aren't met by the developer that there's an option

2:20:12for the city to discontinue the agreement.

2:20:15And so that is built into the policy

2:20:18and into the draft agreement that's moving forward.

2:20:21Okay, thank you, your worship.

2:20:25Thanks, counselor.

2:20:26So I just have two quick questions on one slide.

2:20:28I think it was slide 17.

2:20:29It had sort of three green buckets.

2:20:34And one of them was like, who does the actual work?

2:20:38So is it the developers own contractors

2:20:42that would do the work?

2:20:46Our own, or do we inspect what they did?

2:20:48Like I just trying to understand how, who does what?

2:20:51One, let's say an agreement's made,

2:20:53then who actually puts the shovels in the ground

2:20:55and who starts to do the work?

2:20:58Thank you.

2:20:58So there's two different paths that could be taken

2:21:01and the policy allows for both paths.

2:21:05So it could be a city-led project.

2:21:07So the city does the work, as we normally would,

2:21:10to build our city infrastructure,

2:21:12but the developer provides the financing for that.

2:21:16And then we pay them back in accordance

2:21:19with the terms outlined in the policy.

2:21:20And the other path is for the developer

2:21:24to actually build and pay for the work up front

2:21:28and then we pay them back later.

2:21:30So there's two different potential paths

2:21:32that we can work through.

2:21:34Okay.

2:21:36What determines though, what triggers them doing it

2:21:38versus us?

2:21:39Is it just a capacity issue?

2:21:41Or what could a developer be like,

2:21:43well, I can do it cheaper.

2:21:47So they just want to do it cheaper.

2:21:49Or vice versa, the city goes, well, we can do it cheaper.

2:21:52So we want, who decides in the moment who does what?

2:21:57I might start and then pass it over to Craig,

2:21:59but I think the capacity piece is definitely a key factor.

2:22:05Whether we have the capacity to move it forward

2:22:07on the timeline that they are looking for,

2:22:09I think would be a key driver.

2:22:11And then Craig may have more to add to that.

2:22:15Yes, Mayor, there's certain circumstances

2:22:17where it would be natural for the developer

2:22:20to undertake the work.

2:22:21For example, if there's a local water or sewer main

2:22:24going through their property,

2:22:25and the city in their development charge program

2:22:27has it wanting to sit upsized

2:22:29for other development and growth,

2:22:31that oversizing component is eligible

2:22:33for development charge credits.

2:22:34In that particular case, it may make more sense

2:22:37for the developer to undertake the entirety of the project,

2:22:40but just to rest assured that we built into the policy

2:22:42and the agreement that of course the city

2:22:45will at all times be verifying the quality of the work

2:22:47and signing off on it.

2:22:50That's great that those types of thought processes

2:22:52are going into it, so thank you.

2:22:54And my last question is, is there a built in appeal

2:22:58or a second opinion type of structure?

2:23:02So let's say a developer wants to go ahead with something

2:23:06that's not in the growth plan,

2:23:08that's not on the horizon under the DC provisions.

2:23:13It doesn't meet the criteria when they make the application,

2:23:19but they really want to get this done.

2:23:20And so staff go, hey look, it's not on our list,

2:23:23it's not in the priorities.

2:23:25So we're saying no.

2:23:27Do they have the ability to appeal that?

2:23:30Because in some other cases,

2:23:32I think about our sign by law.

2:23:36Our staff have the ability to say,

2:23:37no, you can't build this sign,

2:23:39for whatever good reasons they are.

2:23:41And then the person in the business has the ability to go,

2:23:47well, here's my case as to why I think

2:23:49you should let me build this sign.

2:23:50There's some kind of an appeal process built in.

2:23:53But I was thinking on building of housing,

2:23:55like how do we know that we don't find out a year later

2:23:59that staff have said no to seven projects

2:24:02that we didn't even have any idea about,

2:24:05is there a way that you can come to council

2:24:07if staff originally say no?

2:24:17So the policy sets out the parameters

2:24:20for the ideal type of agreement, right?

2:24:23So the amount of the developer's own development charges

2:24:27that will be paying for that project.

2:24:32And in the fact that it's in our 10 year capital budget

2:24:36and development charge study,

2:24:38if it's not in there, in one of those documents,

2:24:42then there's still a pathway, I think,

2:24:45to advance that on a case by case basis,

2:24:47depending on the specifics of the situation and the merits.

2:24:51I don't have a great answer off the top of my head

2:24:53to your question about an appeal process,

2:24:55but if Craig has more to add.

2:24:57Well, this is for feedback, right?

2:24:58So you can take it away.

2:25:00Sure.

2:25:01And I'm not demanding an answer or whatever.

2:25:03You can let us know at the end of the month

2:25:04or whatever, send an email.

2:25:05And I'm not pressuring it on any way,

2:25:07shape or form, just to be very clear.

2:25:09I was just curious on whether or not

2:25:11there is an appeal process or a,

2:25:14and I don't want to be on it.

2:25:15So if the answer is no, that's okay.

2:25:17Like give me the reasons why.

2:25:18And I'm not even suggesting that it would happen,

2:25:20but I just want to make sure that if staff are saying no

2:25:24for valid, valid, valid reasons,

2:25:26but there's a gray area,

2:25:29like how does staff know to trigger,

2:25:32maybe we should bring this to council

2:25:33and we can have that presented here.

2:25:35And then we could also say no,

2:25:37but we could just make sure that we're the final no

2:25:42or yes in those gray areas.

2:25:44So take it away as this feedback.

2:25:47Or maybe through to you, if you don't mind,

2:25:49you're the consultant.

2:25:50Have you seen, have you seen any of that anywhere else

2:25:53or am I completely to lunch?

2:25:56No, of course, no, it's a very valid question.

2:25:58I think the first thing to stress is that all of the provisions

2:26:01that I mentioned under the legislation,

2:26:03that under the development charges act

2:26:05that facilitate these kind of front end financing arrangements

2:26:08are at the discretion of the municipality

2:26:10to enter into the agreement.

2:26:12And so there's no mechanism there for challenging that.

2:26:15Of course, they can always appeal

2:26:17a development charge by law,

2:26:18but once that appeal process is done,

2:26:20but even in that event,

2:26:22and certainly in my experience at the OMB

2:26:24and at the tribunal,

2:26:26there isn't the authority to order a municipality

2:26:29to spend money and build infrastructure in advance

2:26:32of when it would normally do it

2:26:33or when it has the fiscal capacity to do it,

2:26:36which to me is the fundamentally we're dealing with.

2:26:39So I don't see any opportunities for appeals

2:26:42or challenges to the tribunal,

2:26:44but I'd certainly happy to take that away

2:26:46and pass any thoughts back through to staff.

2:26:49Okay, and just to be clear as you take it away,

2:26:51I wasn't thinking appeal through formal like OLT

2:26:54and provincial tribunal stuff.

2:26:56I meant they could appeal their case

2:26:59or they could make their case,

2:27:00just throw the word appeal.

2:27:01They could make their case to counsel

2:27:03or make their case in a way if our staff say no,

2:27:06not to elevate it to a more tribunal appeal process.

2:27:10I didn't mean it that way, just how it could come to here,

2:27:12but that's a good takeaway.

2:27:14Oh, Jane, you wanna jump in and then I'll call the vote.

2:27:16Sure, to you, Mr. Mayor.

2:27:17So just to address your question,

2:27:20so as we're talking to the developers,

2:27:22I think we all want the same thing.

2:27:25If we had unlimited money,

2:27:26if we had unlimited capacity,

2:27:28if that's a kind of project that we would build,

2:27:32then there would have to be a really good reason

2:27:35why we would say no.

2:27:36But I can imagine that there's probably some areas

2:27:39where we'd have to get some direction from counsel

2:27:42that if for some reason we want to say yes,

2:27:45but we can't because there's other elements in the way,

2:27:48if there's something like that

2:27:49that we're really struggling with,

2:27:51as we do with other items,

2:27:52then we would probably come to counsel to ask.

2:27:55All right, thank you so much.

2:27:58All right, so it's been moved and seconded

2:27:59and we'll call the vote then.

2:28:01Is anyone against this?

2:28:04Nope, so that's unanimous as well.

2:28:06Thank you very much, two in a row.

2:28:10Okay, we're gonna take a 10 minute break

2:28:12and we'll have Chair Downer come up

2:28:15and we'll talk about trees and halls.

2:28:20So we'll see you soon.

2:38:37Okay, I'd like to bring the meeting back to order.

2:38:39Welcome back, everyone.

2:38:41And we're on to the public services part of the agenda now

2:38:44and we have two items,

2:38:48the private tree protection bylaw update

2:38:51and around the future of the drill hall.

2:38:55So on the private tree protection bylaw update,

2:38:59we have a presentation with Tamiya Filer,

2:39:04Jean Matthews and Margot Ersek

2:39:07and we have one delegation.

2:39:09Thank you.

2:39:12Go ahead, Jean.

2:39:13Good afternoon, Chair Downer and members of council.

2:39:15I'm Jean Matthews, General Manager of Parks, as you know.

2:39:18Tamiya Filer, the city's urban forest field technologist,

2:39:21Leah Leffler, environmental planner,

2:39:24Dave Beaton, Program Manager of Forestry

2:39:26and Sustainable Landscapes and Margot Ersek,

2:39:29Principal Planning Ecologist from Grounded Solutions

2:39:31are here today for council to consider

2:39:33and endorse proposed changes

2:39:35to our existing private tree bylaw.

2:39:38Our process commenced in 2022

2:39:40and has included fulsome community engagement

2:39:43with updates to council at specific intervals.

2:39:45We've been reminded from you and residents

2:39:48how important a healthy tree canopy is to Guelph

2:39:51as well as the challenges this presents

2:39:53in an urban context.

2:39:55As you will hear from Tamiya,

2:39:56our recommendations have been carefully considered

2:39:58using a transparent and balanced process

2:40:01for selecting options and arriving at final recommendations.

2:40:04We all desire a healthy tree canopy here in Guelph

2:40:07so we are continuing this journey

2:40:09from a good place of common understanding.

2:40:11And that's Tamiya.

2:40:19Okay, good afternoon Chair Downer

2:40:22and council and Mayor Guthrie.

2:40:25Okay, perfect.

2:40:27Okay, so since the last update

2:40:29of the private tree protection bylaw,

2:40:31the city has recommitted to our 40% canopy cover goal.

2:40:36The private tree protection bylaw is just one of the tools,

2:40:39the regulatory tools that will help us

2:40:42along the way to achieve that goal.

2:40:55Today we're going to review the purpose.

2:40:59We're here to talk about the purpose of the presentation

2:41:01and the key directions report.

2:41:04We are going to talk about the strategic plan alignment,

2:41:07the project timeline and progress.

2:41:10We're going to talk about the private tree protection

2:41:12bylaw scope update, the key findings of the research

2:41:17and the reports and other related updates as well.

2:41:22We're also going to talk about financial implications

2:41:24and then next steps.

2:41:30So since the last private tree protection bylaw update,

2:41:35there has been a shift towards intensification.

2:41:38There's been a need to adapt to climate change

2:41:41as per the strategic plan.

2:41:43There's been a need to align with other updated city policies

2:41:47and rules.

2:41:49Also periodic updates are recommended best practice

2:41:52by the city's urban forest management plan.

2:41:56The outcome we're hoping for out of this presentation

2:41:59is seeking the approval of the proposed changes

2:42:02to the private tree protection bylaw

2:42:05to provide you the rationale for the updates

2:42:08through the key directions report,

2:42:11to seek approval of the fee structure,

2:42:13an updated fee structure to come into effect

2:42:16if this bylaw is adopted.

2:42:19And then eventually to talk about the financial implications

2:42:24and how we will seek funding to effectively implement

2:42:27the updated private tree protection bylaw if adopted.

2:42:34The city's strategic plan identifies the update

2:42:39of the private tree bylaw, protection bylaw,

2:42:42to increase the city's ability to effectively regulate

2:42:45the destruction and injuring of trees.

2:42:52And as Jean mentioned, the timeline for the project

2:42:56has occurred over a two year time period.

2:42:59There were six tasks or are six tasks in the project.

2:43:03We are at task six, the final culmination of the project

2:43:08through the proposed updated bylaw.

2:43:12Earlier in the project though, we did engage

2:43:16with the community twice and with council as well,

2:43:22as well as produce an issues and options report

2:43:26and the key directions report

2:43:28that you have as an attachment today.

2:43:36Okay, perfect.

2:43:37And I'm going to pass it on to Margot or Sim.

2:43:46So is it back here?

2:43:48There we go.

2:43:52Good afternoon.

2:43:54So in terms of the key findings of some of the work,

2:43:59more than 30% of Wells Tree canopy cover

2:44:02is growing on private property.

2:44:04So I think as most of you know, current canopy cover

2:44:07in Guelph based on the last assessment

2:44:09was about 23% canopy cover.

2:44:12The proposed update estimated 10%.

2:44:18So what does that mean?

2:44:19So if we're looking at, I'm just gonna,

2:44:20I'm not gonna try not to give you too many numbers,

2:44:22but a couple of key ones.

2:44:24So if the 23% is all the canopy cover 100%,

2:44:28right now the current bylaw in place covers about,

2:44:30captures about 50% of that, so half.

2:44:33The bylaw that we are presenting today,

2:44:35the updated one captures 60%.

2:44:38The most possible that we could regulate in the city

2:44:41on private land would be 70%.

2:44:43So we've kind of cut it down the middle.

2:44:45So just to put that in perspective.

2:44:48The next point, the private tree bylaw is Guelph's

2:44:52primary tool for legislating tree protection

2:44:55on private property.

2:44:57So the private tree bylaw, as you know,

2:44:59the city's had one for many years in 1986.

2:45:03It's a good tool, it's an important tool,

2:45:05but it's not the only tool.

2:45:06It works together with other policies.

2:45:09It works together with stewardship initiatives,

2:45:10the tree planting strategy.

2:45:12So it works with all those things together to sustain,

2:45:16to maintain, to enhance the city's tree canopy cover.

2:45:20Third point, community engagement demonstrated

2:45:24a number of things and we had mixed results.

2:45:26I've got another slide, so I won't get into that

2:45:28in too much detail, but it basically spoke to us

2:45:32and said that an expanded scope of the bylaw

2:45:35was important to the community

2:45:37and that regulating mature trees was also a priority

2:45:40for many of the residents and the participants.

2:45:44One of the things that was also very interesting

2:45:47in terms of the outcome of the engagement

2:45:48was that very few people actually knew about the bylaw

2:45:51that's in place today.

2:45:53That many people did not fully understand the bylaw,

2:45:56which is understandable, it's not the simplest thing

2:45:58to understand.

2:46:00And so as part of the new bylaw that's coming forward

2:46:03the updated bylaw I should say,

2:46:06it will be very important to have a communications plan

2:46:09to roll it out to help improve that knowledge

2:46:12and that understanding.

2:46:14And the last point, so the current private tree bylaw

2:46:17is not fully resourced.

2:46:19So again, very important.

2:46:20So we're looking at expanding this bylaw.

2:46:23We already need, or I should say the city already requires,

2:46:27staff required additional resources

2:46:28to implement the current bylaw.

2:46:30And then in addition to that,

2:46:32we need further resources to resource the expanded bylaw.

2:46:36One of the key best practices that's available out there

2:46:40with respect to private tree bylaws

2:46:42and I think is understood by staff here as well

2:46:46is that it is not great to have a private tree bylaw

2:46:50that's really restrictive if you're not actually

2:46:51gonna implement and enforce it.

2:46:56Ooh, now I'm going the wrong way.

2:46:58Okay.

2:47:00Ooh, I shouldn't have pressed that one at all.

2:47:03Uh-oh, now I'm in trouble.

2:47:05Okay.

2:47:07We may need help here.

2:47:09While someone is fixing that for me,

2:47:10I do know what the next slide says

2:47:12and I won't keep you waiting any longer

2:47:13so it's where we landed.

2:47:15Oh, look at you, Jean.

2:47:16Have these tech wizards.

2:47:18Excellent, thank you.

2:47:19But now I don't know how to advance the slides still.

2:47:21So you don't have to show me.

2:47:24Sorry.

2:47:25So the big green button.

2:47:27Oh, the big green button, excellent.

2:47:29So here's where we landed.

2:47:32We landed on regulation of mature trees,

2:47:3550 centimeters diameter on all private property

2:47:39plus the existing bylaw.

2:47:40So the existing bylaw is small trees,

2:47:43relatively small trees, so 10 centimeters and above

2:47:45on properties that are 0.2 hectares and above.

2:47:48So that's about half an acre.

2:47:51I like to compare that to the size of a hockey arena.

2:47:53That's a good analogy that we give to people

2:47:55to give them a sense of the size of that lot.

2:47:59Okay, I've got it now.

2:48:02So community engagement.

2:48:03As Tamea mentioned, we engage with the community twice.

2:48:08We had, I would say, a relatively good responsible.

2:48:11The first engagement,

2:48:12we had almost 300 survey respondents.

2:48:14We engaged with over 80 participants in focus groups,

2:48:17pop-ups, community sessions.

2:48:20The second round, we had over 450 survey responses

2:48:24and we reached out and engaged with over 200 people.

2:48:28So again, through being at the market,

2:48:31being at the Victoria Rec Center, various places,

2:48:34reaching out to people and chatting with them

2:48:36and having virtual and in-person sessions.

2:48:39What did we hear?

2:48:41Well, we heard that more than half the participants

2:48:44supported expanding the scope of the current bylaw.

2:48:46So people recognized there was a need to do more,

2:48:50but opinions were very divided.

2:48:51Again, not shockingly on how that should be done.

2:48:55We heard that one of the big themes

2:48:57that came across as already mentioned

2:48:59is that people were very concerned about mature trees.

2:49:01So that was a pretty consistent priority,

2:49:03about half, more than half of the participants

2:49:06that we heard from that came across quite clearly.

2:49:09And most of the survey respondents were also supportive

2:49:13of some additional investment,

2:49:15recognizing that it's important to implement

2:49:17and enforce the bylaw that's in place.

2:49:20But we also heard a lot about not wanting additional costs.

2:49:23We heard that from yourselves at council.

2:49:26We heard that from a lot of residents as well.

2:49:29So I'm just going to take a moment here

2:49:34because I'm here in my professional capacity as a consultant,

2:49:37but I also live in Guelph,

2:49:39and I also do other things on the side.

2:49:41And so I think what we heard from the community

2:49:44can kind of fall into three baskets

2:49:46and it was pretty evenly spread.

2:49:48We have the one basket,

2:49:49and I'm gonna say me as resident.

2:49:52So a number of years ago,

2:49:56we decided that we would like to have a trampoline

2:49:58to keep our two kids bouncing inside, bouncing outside.

2:50:02And we needed to remove silver maple in the backyard

2:50:06to do that.

2:50:07At the time, I think the tree was probably

2:50:09about 30 centimeters diameter.

2:50:12Big enough that we did manage to remove it ourselves.

2:50:15Under a more restrictive bylaw,

2:50:17we would have had to go through a permanent process.

2:50:19Would I have been happy about that as a resident?

2:50:22No, I wouldn't have.

2:50:24So that represented, I would say,

2:50:26a good third of the community that we heard,

2:50:28you know, and you've heard it as well.

2:50:31They don't want additional regulation.

2:50:32It's understandable, right?

2:50:33I get it.

2:50:35Then there's the other side of me,

2:50:36the environmental advocate, the ecologist.

2:50:39I know what other municipalities are doing.

2:50:41I've researched it, we've written about it.

2:50:44Lots of municipalities have private tree balls.

2:50:46Lots of municipalities have bylaws

2:50:48that are more restrictive than 50 centimeters diameter.

2:50:50There's lots of 20, there's lots with 30.

2:50:54And so part of me is saying,

2:50:56well, why aren't we going stronger with this?

2:50:58So why aren't we?

2:51:03The professional.

2:51:04So this is what we did.

2:51:06We were tasked with identifying criteria

2:51:09for going through all the different options.

2:51:11We started off with a very long list of options.

2:51:14I'm gonna say more than 15 different combinations.

2:51:17Combinations of everything from 10 centimeters

2:51:21on every property across the city,

2:51:23all the way up to just sticking with the regular bylaw.

2:51:26We stopped it there because removing the bylaw

2:51:28was not an option that was on the table for us.

2:51:30So that was sort of our threshold.

2:51:33And we looked at all those options.

2:51:35We ran them through these criteria

2:51:37and we narrowed it down to nine.

2:51:40Then we went out to the, did further analysis,

2:51:43came to you about a year ago, March of 2024.

2:51:47We had narrowed it down to four options

2:51:49that we were going out to the community with,

2:51:51with the understanding that we might end up

2:51:53with some combinations in there.

2:51:54And these are the options that we ended up with.

2:51:57So A there is sticking with the current bylaw, no change.

2:52:02B was going to slightly smaller lots,

2:52:04but still keeping the focus on small trees

2:52:07on large urlots in the city.

2:52:09C is what we'll call the green option

2:52:12or the greenest option that's there.

2:52:14So 20 centimeters on all lots across the city.

2:52:18With the caveat that you do have a bit of a loss

2:52:21in regulation with that option,

2:52:23because you don't have the 10 centimeters

2:52:25on the larger lots.

2:52:27Option D, which is where we landed.

2:52:29So that's the trees of 50 centimeters diameter.

2:52:32So what we'll call mature trees,

2:52:35plus the current bylaw.

2:52:38And then option E, which was added afterwards

2:52:42based on feedback that we had

2:52:43from the natural heritage advisory committee,

2:52:46basically looking at mature trees,

2:52:47but then combining that with slightly smaller lots.

2:52:52So the criteria across the top,

2:52:54and again, a lot of effort and thought

2:52:56went into these to be transparent

2:52:58and to keep ourselves as unbiased as possible,

2:53:01understanding that we all come with our biases as well.

2:53:04So the first two criteria are the environmental ones.

2:53:07So they look at the proportion of trees regulated,

2:53:09as well as the proportion of canopy,

2:53:11understanding that these are estimates.

2:53:14We're basing it on analysis that was done

2:53:15a number of years ago,

2:53:17and that the canopy is evolving every day, every year.

2:53:21The next two criteria are what I would call

2:53:24more the community ones.

2:53:26So one was level of protection.

2:53:28So we didn't want a bylaw that would reduce,

2:53:34we knew we had to move the needle somewhat.

2:53:36And then also considering what we heard from the community.

2:53:39And then the last two were really looking at more

2:53:41the logistics of it, I guess I would say,

2:53:44the considering level of complexity.

2:53:49So understanding that as soon as you go

2:53:51from focusing on larger lots to every single lot,

2:53:54private lot, you are adding complexity to this bylaw

2:53:58from an administrative perspective

2:53:59and various other perspectives.

2:54:02And also cost related to that, to implementation.

2:54:07So in looking at these options,

2:54:09you can see that they all came in not that far

2:54:12from each other, which at least reassured us

2:54:15that we were taking a somewhat balanced approach,

2:54:17but we did end up at the, down the middle, I would say,

2:54:2150 centimeter diameter on all lots,

2:54:24plus maintaining the protections in place.

2:54:26So basically, most trees, 10 centimeters and above

2:54:30on the larger lots.

2:54:31And with that, I will pass it back to you, to me.

2:54:40Okay, some of the other updates that were part of this project,

2:54:44besides the scope, was refining, removing,

2:54:49and adding multiple definitions.

2:54:52The purpose of that was just to improve clarity

2:54:54and update some of those definitions.

2:54:58We refined, removed, and added multiple exemptions as well.

2:55:03There are multiple exemptions in the current bylaw

2:55:06in section four, and so we reviewed and went through those.

2:55:10The purpose of doing that was to improve,

2:55:14mainly to improve tree replacement for canopy loss.

2:55:17So where there were exemptions for certain things,

2:55:22when there was an exemption,

2:55:23there wouldn't be requirements for compensation

2:55:27or even an application for a permit under the bylaw.

2:55:33We also added new permit fees,

2:55:35and revised existing permit fees.

2:55:38And the purpose of that was to maximize the cost recovery

2:55:42with equitable fees.

2:55:44And I'll talk about that a little bit more on the next slide.

2:55:50So the main, there's a few main changes,

2:55:53but first of all, the first fee

2:55:55that most people are familiar with is the permit fee.

2:55:58So currently the permit fee,

2:56:00an application permit fee is $122,

2:56:03and there's no tree limit with that.

2:56:06The revised permit is $150 for one to three trees,

2:56:12but then additional trees above and beyond three trees

2:56:17is $50 a tree, but to a maximum permit fee of $500.

2:56:23And what that does, the change in the permit fee,

2:56:26what that does is it builds in a scale

2:56:29for different types of applicants.

2:56:31So addressing the cost rate for a resident

2:56:38who is removing one tree versus another property owner

2:56:42that may be removing 10 trees.

2:56:47We've added a new permit appeal fee,

2:56:50because again, if some of you aren't aware,

2:56:52there is a permit appeal process as part of the bylaw.

2:56:58We're removing the tree compensation fee of $500,

2:57:03which is the cash in, some of you know it as a cash in loop

2:57:06per tree removed fee, which is currently written

2:57:09in the current bylaw, we're removing that

2:57:13and replacing it with a tree compensation

2:57:16or a cash in loop or replacement tree required of $350.

2:57:22The main reason for that is being that replacing one tree

2:57:27at a cost of $500 does not cover the cost

2:57:33of replacing that tree.

2:57:35So it was to build a balance out

2:57:36so that we could grow the canopy

2:57:38because if we were to continue with the $500,

2:57:41we wouldn't be replacing canopy

2:57:43at the rate that we would like to,

2:57:45or that's appropriate I should say.

2:57:48The tree compensation security deposit

2:57:53for replacement trees required.

2:57:56Currently the average is about $650 per tree

2:58:00and that's usually based on landscape cost estimates.

2:58:05We're actually setting a standard rate of $350.

2:58:09So we're going to match the tree compensation

2:58:14cash in loop fee with the security fee.

2:58:17And what that means is if you remove a tree

2:58:19and you are replacing two trees on the property,

2:58:22you would submit to the city a security fee of $700

2:58:30to the city that would be refundable.

2:58:32Once there has been an inspection done,

2:58:34again there will be processes built

2:58:35and found the road for that.

2:58:37And lastly, the tree bylaw compliance inspection fee,

2:58:44this doesn't currently exist.

2:58:46This is for $500 and it's meant when staff

2:58:51is taking time for inspections

2:58:54when there are violations occurring.

2:58:56Some of those inspections can take days,

2:59:01hours if not days.

2:59:05With financial implications,

2:59:07the proposed updated private tree protection bylaw

2:59:10will require an increase to the annual operating budget

2:59:14expenditures approximately by 222,000

2:59:20to provide resources to implement the updated bylaw

2:59:24funded by an estimated $104,000 in additional

2:59:28user fee revenue and $118,000 tax support,

2:59:31which is 0.03% tax levy impact

2:59:35through the 2026 budget confirmation process.

2:59:44And lastly, next steps, if the private tree bylaw,

2:59:48protection bylaw is adopted, we would be looking at

2:59:52and continuing in some cases, updating internal

2:59:55and external processes to implement the bylaw

2:59:58and the associated fees.

3:00:00We would be updating the city's current tree

3:00:03technical manual, which if some of you are familiar with it,

3:00:07it sets out standards guidelines for tree protection,

3:00:13tree protection fencing, tree planting, and other things.

3:00:18Sorry, very importantly there, the compensation approaches,

3:00:23the tree replacement approaches.

3:00:26We would also develop a companion private tree bylaw guide

3:00:31to assist members of the public

3:00:32in navigating the permit process.

3:00:34And that might take the form of website updates,

3:00:38communication, education, whatnot.

3:00:45Thank you very much.

3:00:48Thank you, Tim.

3:00:49So I think we're gonna go right to delegations

3:00:52and then we'll go through to questions.

3:00:54So our one and only delegation is Morgan Dandy.

3:00:58If you would like to come forward.

3:01:25Hello, so Ms. Dandy, I don't need to remind you

3:01:35of the procedures you're here.

3:01:37You know them very well.

3:01:41Good afternoon, committee members and fellow Guelphites.

3:01:43I wish to extend a huge thank you to our city staff

3:01:48for presenting the option that provides a balance

3:01:50in tree protection and respecting people's pocket books.

3:01:56I am most pleased because the update

3:01:58to the private tree protection bylaw

3:02:01will protect the gorgeous old oak tree

3:02:05that's in the backyard of the house

3:02:07that I chose to purchase when I moved to Guelph.

3:02:12The two and a half years staff has been afforded

3:02:15to develop this bylaw is evident.

3:02:18I'm sure we can all agree that Guelph city staff

3:02:23produce exceptional reports that provide transparency

3:02:28to those who spend, who choose to spend their time reading them.

3:02:33Whether you're on city council or a policy geek like me,

3:02:39Guelph city staff reports are essential

3:02:43to our understanding of local government and governance

3:02:48for which we've all expressed gratitude.

3:02:52As I was looking at the timeline of this project

3:02:55and reflecting on my delegation last week,

3:02:58it struck me that it's likely this dedication

3:03:01to excellence embodied in Guelph city staff

3:03:05that allowed them to craft a public use bylaw

3:03:09in 11 days that is yet to face any charter challenge,

3:03:12but I digress.

3:03:15As the soil delegation on the updated

3:03:18private tree protection bylaw,

3:03:20after extensive community engagement,

3:03:24I'm happy to see our most mature trees

3:03:27being protected across our beautiful city

3:03:30as we work of 40%.

3:03:36I look forward to seeing this bylaw passed

3:03:39and hopefully it will pass with unanimity.

3:03:47Any questions of the delegate?

3:03:50Okay, have a seat now.

3:03:51Thank you.

3:03:53Okay, first I'd like to go to either any questions of staff

3:03:59or the consultants and then we'll go to,

3:04:04oh, we got somebody with table to motion,

3:04:05Councillor Goller, seconded by Mayor Guthrie.

3:04:10And then I understand there's an amendment.

3:04:13So let's go to questions first

3:04:16and then we'll go to the comments,

3:04:18Councillor Goller and then Councillor Boussoud.

3:04:21Thank you, and through you, Chair,

3:04:23Donor to staff.

3:04:25Thank you so much for all the work that's gone into this.

3:04:27I really appreciate it.

3:04:29I am curious, during the presentation,

3:04:31you mentioned that many people did not know about this.

3:04:34And I'm just curious,

3:04:35could you elaborate a little bit more

3:04:37about the tree protection bylaw

3:04:40once we approve a new one?

3:04:43What will be the new communication strategy

3:04:45to ensure that it is more widely known in the community?

3:04:48You did mention changes to the website and the manual,

3:04:50but I'm wondering, is there more to get this

3:04:53out to the community?

3:04:58Through you, Chair Donor.

3:05:00Yes, we do plan to do substantial communication.

3:05:05We've already developed a communication tactic plan

3:05:09that will include social media, website updates,

3:05:11public notices, and the whole box of tools

3:05:18that we would normally do.

3:05:21Again, some of those are initial,

3:05:23like if the bylaw is approved,

3:05:25some of those are just initial communications

3:05:27to let people know that there's been a change.

3:05:30But the other pieces of communication and education

3:05:33and outreach will happen over the following months

3:05:38and even further, right?

3:05:40So as people uptake it,

3:05:41again reaching out to even directly through email

3:05:44to tree care professionals, consultants, developers,

3:05:48and whatnot, again, some of those key stakeholders

3:05:50that were involved in the focus groups or outside of those.

3:05:54So yeah, we do plan to do some substantial

3:05:56outreach communication and education.

3:05:58Okay, that's very helpful.

3:06:00Thank you very much.

3:06:01I wanted to ask through you, Chair,

3:06:03another question about the exemptions built

3:06:06into the bylaw that is proposed.

3:06:09It's my understanding that if there is any damage

3:06:13or injuries or sickness to the trees,

3:06:15then they would be exempt.

3:06:17Is that, could you just go over those a little bit

3:06:19to understand what would not require someone

3:06:22to pay the tree replacement costs?

3:06:28Through you, Chair Downer.

3:06:32The current bylaw has exemptions for dead, dying,

3:06:35and diseased trees, as well as high-risk trees,

3:06:38which are trees that you might know

3:06:40as hazardous or dangerous in general.

3:06:43The exemptions carry through, but slightly differently.

3:06:48There's still exemptions.

3:06:52Again, there wouldn't be a permit fee

3:06:54for those ones that are exempt.

3:06:56Some of the exemptions maintain the condition

3:07:00of approval from city staff.

3:07:04Those ones do not.

3:07:05So for a dead tree, you're just simply exempt

3:07:09from the bylaw.

3:07:11Same with some of the others.

3:07:12So those continue and carry through.

3:07:15Okay, thank you.

3:07:16And in case of redevelopment or new development,

3:07:20would there be any exemptions

3:07:22or would those trees if someone is, say,

3:07:24adding to their home or building a new property,

3:07:29would any sort of development or redevelopment

3:07:32trigger exemptions or would those fall

3:07:34under the replacement provisions?

3:07:39The exemptions would be triggered regardless,

3:07:43whether it's a development or through a planning application

3:07:48or not through a planning application,

3:07:50the exemptions apply across the board to everybody.

3:07:55Sorry, may I maybe rephrase your question?

3:07:57Just understand, it's a healthy tree

3:08:00and there's going to be a redevelopment.

3:08:02Just to be clear, if there's a redevelopment

3:08:05or an expansion, then they would have to replace the tree.

3:08:08They're just to be clear, right?

3:08:14Yes.

3:08:14Okay, thank you.

3:08:15Thank you very much.

3:08:17Thank you, chair.

3:08:17Those are all my questions,

3:08:19but I do have a motion after questions.

3:08:22Thank you.

3:08:22Thank you.

3:08:23Councillor Bouset-Hill.

3:08:25Yes, thank you.

3:08:26And through chair Downer,

3:08:27thank you for this report.

3:08:28This is excellent.

3:08:30I really love the retention.

3:08:32And we all know that large trees have a big impact

3:08:35on battling climate change.

3:08:37Just to the staff through the chair,

3:08:40in the first slide, it talks about why are we here

3:08:43and the need to adapt to climate change

3:08:45as per the strategic plan.

3:08:47So my question is kind of related.

3:08:50It's about heat islands in the city of Guelph.

3:08:54And whether it's this private tree bylaw

3:08:59that's here in front of us today.

3:09:01And I know that we've taken historically

3:09:04some initiatives to encourage more private tree planting.

3:09:08Take root comes to mind and so on.

3:09:11So what is the retention of what we have now

3:09:13in this bylaw does that?

3:09:15My question is on that strategic plan,

3:09:19have we ever looked at the bylaw

3:09:23having some kind of measures to not penalize,

3:09:28but to encourage in some way tree planting

3:09:32on lots where there are none,

3:09:34on residences where there are none.

3:09:36I know about the take root and free trees and so on,

3:09:39but whether it's part of a bylaw

3:09:42or part of a plan specifically related

3:09:44to heat islands and climate change.

3:09:49Through you chair Downer,

3:09:51no the bylaw does not speak to that

3:09:54or require somebody who hasn't removed

3:09:57or injured a tree to plant trees on their property.

3:10:02Am I understanding your question?

3:10:04No, thank you.

3:10:05It's those properties that have no trees.

3:10:08So we're looking at a strategic plan,

3:10:11a canopy strategy here that is retaining

3:10:14where there are trees.

3:10:16My question is, and I know it's not part of this research,

3:10:20maybe a takeaway, two things.

3:10:22City identifying heat islands

3:10:24where there are areas of concern

3:10:28for extreme heat in the future and so on.

3:10:30And as you're looking at the bylaw,

3:10:33the next step to take this away

3:10:34and encourage more private tree planting

3:10:38within that umbrella of a bylaw.

3:10:41All right, thank you.

3:10:42Okay, that's not addressed directly through this bylaw,

3:10:46but it was something that's addressed through

3:10:47a one canopy tree planting strategy

3:10:50and developing strategic planting plans

3:10:53based on specifically heat islands, low canopy and whatnot.

3:10:58So that's something we'll take away,

3:11:00but it's part of the one planting,

3:11:03one canopy tree planting strategy.

3:11:09Thank you, Councillor Corrone.

3:11:12Yes, I was looking at the key findings report

3:11:17and trying to understand what percentage of our canopy

3:11:21is trees between 10 centimeters and 50 centimeters.

3:11:25I know you're recommending 50 centimeter

3:11:29protection on private lots.

3:11:30And I believe it's figure,

3:11:34just trying to find the right figure.

3:11:36Table one on page 14.

3:11:41So I just wanna make sure I'm reading it correctly.

3:11:4322% of our canopy is trees

3:11:48at least 20 centimeters in diameter on private lots.

3:11:53Where's that?

3:11:56Yes, that's across the city.

3:11:59Three, sorry, three chair downer, just to confirm.

3:12:09And my apologies for not asking this question.

3:12:11No, I just need to double check to make sure I'm right.

3:12:14These numbers are percentages for the coverage

3:12:17of an estimated population across the city,

3:12:23not just on private property.

3:12:25Yeah.

3:12:26Okay, okay, that's great.

3:12:27And my understanding, and again,

3:12:30this is more of a technical question,

3:12:32but the difference between a 20 centimeter,

3:12:3630 centimeter, 40 centimeter, 50 centimeter

3:12:39is very dependent on the type of tree.

3:12:42So this is more of a technical question.

3:12:44You could have a tree with a 30 centimeter diameter

3:12:48at breast height that is 100 years old,

3:12:51and you can have a tree that's 50 centimeters,

3:12:53that might be only 25 or 30 years old.

3:12:56Is that correct?

3:12:59Three chair downer, yes, that is correct.

3:13:02Based on the species, okay, thanks.

3:13:06Okay, thank you.

3:13:06So I'll go to Councillor Rodrigo.

3:13:12Councillor Rodrigo, Councillor Goller.

3:13:15Now for his, you have an amendment you wanna put on the floor.

3:13:17Thank you, three chair.

3:13:18I would ask the clerk to put that up.

3:13:22And I'll be looking for a seconder to this motion.

3:13:25I see that Councillor Caron has raised her hand.

3:13:28Thank you, Leanne.

3:13:30And this direction is for staff to amend the definition.

3:13:35Regulated tree in the private tree protection bylaw

3:13:38to mean a tree at least 10 centimeters

3:13:40in diameter located in a private lot.

3:13:43So that stays the same, larger than 0.2 hectares,

3:13:46and this is where it changes.

3:13:48And a tree of at least 30 centimeters

3:13:50located in any private lot.

3:13:53So with this motion, we are increasing the protection

3:13:57from 50 to 30 centimeters or lots.

3:14:02And if I may give us some rationale, chair?

3:14:05Yes, please go ahead.

3:14:07Thank you.

3:14:09I really appreciate all the work that's done on this.

3:14:12And through the background research,

3:14:14they showed us that several municipalities in Ontario

3:14:17do in fact protect trees that are 30 or smaller,

3:14:21including both Toronto and Ottawa.

3:14:23They have regulations to protect trees

3:14:25that are at least 30.

3:14:27And by making this change, we would be protecting

3:14:33about an extra 10% of our urban trees

3:14:36by going from the 50 down to the 30.

3:14:41Now, as presented by Councillor Caron,

3:14:44depending on the species that we're looking at,

3:14:46the base home fir, the trembling aspen,

3:14:50both of those trees are common in the Guelph area,

3:14:53and they would reach their mature size

3:14:55at around 30 centimeters in diameter.

3:14:58So by making this change, we would be capturing

3:15:01a greater proportion of mature trees

3:15:04that provide many benefits to our community.

3:15:07You know, we have to think about stormwater management,

3:15:10the air quality improvements, carbon sequestration,

3:15:13the energy savings from that extra canopy

3:15:16that we've protected, and also,

3:15:19even though we don't use property values

3:15:22to make decisions often, but it would retain property values.

3:15:26It's about three to seven percent increase

3:15:29in property values when you have trees on your properties.

3:15:33And because we are in a time of development

3:15:37and redevelopment, the city is growing.

3:15:41And unless we put this in place,

3:15:44we may see many of those trees

3:15:46that are smaller than the 50 centimeters diameter.

3:15:49And when there's a redevelopment,

3:15:50there would be no requirement for those property owners

3:15:54to replant them, to replant the trees.

3:15:57So I would urge my council colleagues

3:15:59to consider supporting this

3:16:01for the benefit of all residents in Guelph,

3:16:04not only the environmental, the health benefits,

3:16:07but in the community.

3:16:09And something that I keep on reminding myself,

3:16:13my neighbor's trees impact me and my family,

3:16:16and two doors over, they impact me, and in the neighborhood.

3:16:19So having a stricter regulation

3:16:22to ensure that trees are either protected or replanted,

3:16:26I think it would have a generational impact

3:16:30to the city of Guelph.

3:16:31And just to remind us, the change that I'm proposing

3:16:34would add an extra 10% of the trees

3:16:39under what would be protected by the bylaw.

3:16:44Thank you.

3:16:45Are there any questions or comments, Councillor Ciarán?

3:16:48Sure, comments.

3:16:50Thank you, Councillor Goller, for bringing this forward.

3:16:52I will be supporting wholeheartedly.

3:16:53I think I want to start by thanking Councillor and Chair Downer,

3:16:59who has been championing a private tree law

3:17:01for probably as long as I've known you.

3:17:03And that's, we're talking decades.

3:17:05So I give full credit for you.

3:17:13And I look at trees with that 30 centimeter diameter

3:17:18at breast height, and those are mature trees.

3:17:20And so I did a little looking at the various species,

3:17:24prior to this meeting, and as Councillor Goller pointed out,

3:17:27many reach their maturity at that diameter.

3:17:30And so one of the biggest challenges we have in this city

3:17:33is the loss of those mature trees.

3:17:35And I think by defining it at 50 centimeters,

3:17:38we're excluding an entire canopy percentage

3:17:43that is outlined in this report.

3:17:45So I think 30 centimeters is the way to go.

3:17:47And as an aside, that is the Toronto bylaw.

3:17:51The Toronto bylaws is 30 centimeters.

3:17:54And I won't go into all the benefits of that 30 to 50 range,

3:17:59but we have been going backwards on our tree canopy

3:18:03over the last 10 years.

3:18:05And that 30 to 50 centimeter diameter is a major group.

3:18:12We are planting trees in all of our development areas.

3:18:16And if we're going to lose them before we get to maturity,

3:18:20that's where our canopy is going to significantly suffer

3:18:23in the years ahead.

3:18:24So that 30 to 50 centimeter group,

3:18:27I think is absolutely should be included in this bylaw.

3:18:30So thank you, Councillor Goller.

3:18:35Are there any other questions or comments?

3:18:37So I'll have a comment to Councillor Billings.

3:18:41Through you, Madam Chair, I wanted to ask staff,

3:18:44by changing this diameter down to 30 centimeters,

3:18:48then would not the budget request be more given this change?

3:18:57Through the chair to council, so that would will change.

3:19:00Our budget ask was part of the 2026 budget process.

3:19:04And just a couple of things just to note here that

3:19:07while those costs may be viewed as significant

3:19:10or not through that process,

3:19:11they will increase cost to the community as a whole,

3:19:14as we know, and to remind us all from Tamiya's presentation,

3:19:18we did hear that in engagement.

3:19:20And in our council conversations,

3:19:22that is something that we should be very much be aware of.

3:19:25Also to make council aware, there are other things,

3:19:28the planning act, heritage policy that can protect trees

3:19:31in certain circumstances too.

3:19:33So again, we all want a healthy canopy here for sure.

3:19:36Just highlight those things for council to consider

3:19:38because these conversations do move us away a little bit

3:19:42from those screening options that staff shared with council.

3:19:46Okay, and I also want to ask, and it relates to both.

3:19:50It doesn't matter if it's the amendment or not,

3:19:53to go to the fee schedule with the security deposit

3:19:56per replacement tree required.

3:19:59So if it's the 50 centimeters or the 30 centimeters,

3:20:06what's the diameter?

3:20:07How many centimeters is a replacement tree?

3:20:14Through you chair, the replacement tree,

3:20:15the standard for replacement tree is a six centimeter,

3:20:19six centimeter caliper tree,

3:20:22but there are options to use smaller tree sizes

3:20:27if planting more trees.

3:20:28Again, there's some flexibility there

3:20:30when the application is under review.

3:20:33So then help me understand again,

3:20:35whether it's the 30 or the 50,

3:20:38if I take down a 30 or I take down a 50,

3:20:42under what you just said,

3:20:43because it's $350 per replacement tree required.

3:20:50So you go and you replace your tree and the diameter,

3:20:54whether it's six or eight centimeters.

3:20:59So is it $350 times the what, the six centimeters?

3:21:09Because there was a comment in the presentation,

3:21:11even under the 50 centimeters,

3:21:13oh, I'd only need two replacement trees.

3:21:15So that's $700.

3:21:18But if it's per replacement tree,

3:21:20then I'm lost and I need clarity.

3:21:25Through you chair, the replacement fee

3:21:29is for every six centimeter tree

3:21:32that's required as a replacement.

3:21:35So if you're required one replacement tree,

3:21:39then it's $350 security.

3:21:43If it's two, then it's 700 and so on.

3:21:46So let's do the 30, because that's the amendment.

3:21:49So I'm taking down a tree that's 30 centimeters.

3:21:55You would be required two replacement trees.

3:22:00And also 50 centimeters, I still only need two.

3:22:06It's for every 15 centimeters that you remove.

3:22:11Okay.

3:22:12It's a six centimeter replacement tree.

3:22:17Okay. So if it's a 50 centimeter tree,

3:22:20then I would require one, two, three, four.

3:22:24I would require four trees.

3:22:26And of course, if it's 30 centimeters, then two trees.

3:22:30Correct?

3:22:31Correct.

3:22:34So it's $700 for the 30 centimeter that's on the floor.

3:22:40Correct.

3:22:41Okay. Thank you for your help.

3:22:42I really appreciate that.

3:22:45Are there any other questions or comments?

3:22:48Councillor Rote.

3:22:51Thank you very much, Chair Downer.

3:22:54I do want to thank Councillor Goller for this motion.

3:22:59I think that he expressed very eloquently

3:23:01what many people are feeling about the future

3:23:03and about community.

3:23:04I do believe that there is actually an economic value

3:23:08to this as well.

3:23:08There's value for money,

3:23:10because this is a long-term project

3:23:13that benefits the community as a whole

3:23:15because Councillor Goller stated what he pointed out

3:23:20that his neighbors trees benefit him and vice versa.

3:23:23But let's look at the long-term investment.

3:23:25We've invested in a greener wealth

3:23:28through our 0% loans to encourage people

3:23:32to reduce their energy consumption.

3:23:35Trees help that as well.

3:23:36And over the long term, we need to recognize

3:23:39that we have even visionaries within the township

3:23:43out at the Ignatius College

3:23:44where they envision a 500-year forest.

3:23:47And the reason for that is this is a cooling for an earth

3:23:50that we have been quickly warming up.

3:23:55I recognize as well that there is going to be some

3:23:57disgruntlement and there's going to be some challenges

3:24:00with enforcement on this.

3:24:02And let's not kid ourselves.

3:24:05But we have to recognize that sometimes

3:24:10with initiatives that are positive,

3:24:12that there are going to be challenges.

3:24:14We see that with speed cameras, for example.

3:24:17Many people are disgruntled by that.

3:24:18But there is a role and responsibility to ensure

3:24:22that we are building for the future,

3:24:25much like we stated with our issuing of debentures.

3:24:28Let's do it now for seven generations forward.

3:24:33Thank you.

3:24:34Any other questions or comments?

3:24:35I just have one.

3:24:36I just, I want to thank staff for bringing this forward

3:24:40to like this, whether it's 30, 40 or 50 centimeters,

3:24:44there's a lot of good work in this.

3:24:46And us talking about different centimeters doesn't,

3:24:50it's just sort of the value we're placing on trees

3:24:54and it's not at all any objection to what has come forward.

3:24:58It's great work and I'm just so pleased

3:25:01to have this before us.

3:25:03I think we need to look at, you know,

3:25:05the 5.6 million in environmental services

3:25:08that trees currently add the 3 million in

3:25:11to the city of Guelph.

3:25:13And the more trees they have,

3:25:14the more environmental services that we derive

3:25:17and benefit from within our city.

3:25:18And, you know, diddle to what a lot of other people are saying,

3:25:23a lot of other counselors are saying too,

3:25:24and remembering that this is not a prohibitive bylaw,

3:25:28trees can still come down,

3:25:29but we're placing a significant value

3:25:32on the trees in our community.

3:25:34Recently, an infill lot in one of the older neighborhoods

3:25:38where they took two lots and demolished the houses,

3:25:41took down 25 trees in an old neighborhood.

3:25:45That's significant, a significant loss

3:25:47when we're trying to reach 40.

3:25:50And there's no protection,

3:25:52there's no requirement for them

3:25:53to have replaced those trees whatsoever.

3:25:56And that's happening in a lot of the older neighborhoods

3:25:59with mature trees.

3:26:01And those, some of those,

3:26:04when I talk about mature neighborhoods,

3:26:06I'm not talking just about old houses.

3:26:07There's, you know, you look out in the West End,

3:26:09there's now a lot of mature trees.

3:26:12The other thing that has been brought to our attention a lot,

3:26:17Councillor Caron, I get a lot of call about this,

3:26:19it's not just the trees that are coming down.

3:26:22The trees that are not getting protected

3:26:25are the ones too that are, have been deemed to be remain.

3:26:28Okay, the developer's gonna keep this tree

3:26:30or whatever they do, but there's no protection from them.

3:26:32The complaint I get is there's a bulldozer

3:26:35on the root of the trees.

3:26:36There's no protection for those trees.

3:26:38The roots are being exposed.

3:26:40There's no protection, and we call out Ms. Filer,

3:26:44and she asked them nicely to look after them,

3:26:47but there's no regulation on that.

3:26:49So when I've asked staff in conversation throughout this,

3:26:52the only way we can protect those other trees

3:26:55is by changing the centimeters to other, you know,

3:26:58to a lower protection, like 40 or 30.

3:27:03If we have no way of protecting them

3:27:05at those other semi-mature trees or mature trees,

3:27:10unless we do that.

3:27:12And so, you know, that's sort of where I sit.

3:27:15If we can't protect even the ones we're keeping

3:27:19because of this centimeter issue,

3:27:21and there's no regulation that we can bring in

3:27:24other than to deal with it this way,

3:27:26then I'm fully supportive of supporting the 30 centimeters.

3:27:34I will call the vote.

3:27:35Is there anyone opposed to the 30 centimeters?

3:27:40So Councillor Billings and Mayor Guthrie,

3:27:44Councillor Chew, that's three.

3:27:48And so that would be?

3:27:51That's passed.

3:27:52Okay, thank you.

3:27:54And we'll move on to the next one.

3:27:59Oh, that was an amendment.

3:28:00So now we need to bring it back to the whole motion again.

3:28:04Is there anyone opposed to the recommendation

3:28:06as amended?

3:28:11Mayor Guthrie and Councillor Billings.

3:28:14So that passes.

3:28:16And Chu, Councillor Chew, I didn't see his hand.

3:28:18I wanted to put his hand up.

3:28:20Okay, I don't.

3:28:21Councillor Chew, did you put your hand up

3:28:23in this last vote for the amended one?

3:28:27Okay, to be opposed.

3:28:29Okay, thank you.

3:28:32Okay, thank you.

3:28:33That moves forward.

3:28:34Thank you for that discussion.

3:28:37A good one, and that comes back at the end of the month

3:28:40to the council meeting.

3:28:43Now we're gonna talk about 10.2,

3:28:48the results of the feasibility study

3:28:50for potential future arts and culture uses of the Dural Hall.

3:28:57And we will have a presentation.

3:29:00We're gonna have Dana Evans speak

3:29:02and also Deputy CEO Colleen Clackbush.

3:29:08And we have three delegations.

3:29:39Chair Dana.

3:29:40Yes.

3:29:42I'm ready when you are.

3:29:43We're ready.

3:29:46Ms. Evans, go ahead.

3:29:47Thank you.

3:29:48Good afternoon.

3:29:49As indicated, I am Dana Evans.

3:29:50I'm the general manager for culture and recreation

3:29:54with the city.

3:29:55We're here to share some information

3:29:58as it relates to the Dural Hall

3:30:00and a potential arts and culture hub.

3:30:02We wanna thank artists and cultural organizations

3:30:05for the support through this process,

3:30:07through our community engagement.

3:30:08And also the tremendous amount of base work

3:30:11and foundational work that has happened

3:30:13from our colleagues across facilities,

3:30:15community engagement, many other city departments,

3:30:18and certainly our friends

3:30:19at the visual arts centers of Guelph.

3:30:21Since 2017, the city acquired the property

3:30:24at 52 Far Core Street, known as the Dural Hall,

3:30:27after Metrolinx included it as a part of a land exchange

3:30:31to help with two-way all-day go transit.

3:30:34The property has been designated

3:30:36as cultural heritage value or asset of interest.

3:30:40The city has invested major structural repair

3:30:44into the building.

3:30:46Market sounding report has been completed.

3:30:49SAF provided an update in real estate assets report,

3:30:52and we've conducted a request for expression of interests

3:30:56linked to not-for-profit organizations.

3:30:59Through an update in June last year,

3:31:02there was interest from two proponents,

3:31:04and we reviewed those in session with council.

3:31:07In the end, it was discovered

3:31:09that neither would be feasible to continue

3:31:11as an not-for-profit operator of this location.

3:31:15At that time, council directed this feasibility study

3:31:18for the potential future arts and culture hub.

3:31:22We've conducted community engagement

3:31:23that focused on cultural and community leaders,

3:31:26or with our cultural community leaders,

3:31:28as possible end users of the space

3:31:31to collect what could be and what would be

3:31:33to imagine the building as it might become.

3:31:37Through the cultural plan

3:31:38and the Indigenous Relations Framework,

3:31:41we heard from local, urban, Indigenous community members

3:31:44for the need to access for space,

3:31:47access to space to gather and practice art,

3:31:50cultural traditions, and for ceremony.

3:31:53It is acknowledged that these needs

3:31:55would be incorporated into any future space

3:31:57and should be prioritized.

3:32:00In Guelph, there is a significant gap

3:32:02in need for a creation space, exhibition space,

3:32:05for local professionals, early career and visual arts,

3:32:09and professionals, particularly an environment

3:32:12that encourages collaboration

3:32:14and a broad community participation.

3:32:16The drill hall has most of this, if not all of it,

3:32:20of the characteristics required to address

3:32:22this community need for arts and culture spaces.

3:32:25With the support from government and community and business,

3:32:28and the provisions of a wide range

3:32:30of arts and culture programming,

3:32:33we could realize an arts and culture hub at this location.

3:32:38This model relies heavily on participation

3:32:41and funding from the city.

3:32:43Currently, these funds are not readily available.

3:32:47There is a need, there is a desire

3:32:49for a culture hub in Guelph to cultivate community,

3:32:51collaboration, and to support local,

3:32:55this cultural economic community.

3:32:57In accordance with the culture plan 2030,

3:33:00staff will continue to work with the cultural community

3:33:02to identify the needs and gaps in the cultural spaces

3:33:06and places and across all artistic disciplines

3:33:09to collaborate into solutions that might address

3:33:12some of the challenges across the sector.

3:33:15I'd like to pass things across to Deputy CAO,

3:33:17Ms. Clack Bush, with further information and comment.

3:33:21Thanks, Ms. Evans, and thanks to the committee of the whole

3:33:25for this opportunity today.

3:33:27So I just want to acknowledge, again,

3:33:29the work that Ms. Evans' team at Tammy Adkin is here as well,

3:33:33and the work that they've done

3:33:34on responding to this council motion.

3:33:36We also have Antivilco here,

3:33:38who can assist with any questions

3:33:39that are specific more on the facility side of things.

3:33:43This was very fulsome in gaining,

3:33:47reduced this report, and I really do hope

3:33:49that it goes without saying that as champions of culture,

3:33:52and I think you all know to me to be that,

3:33:54we would love to see more arts and culture space.

3:33:56That's not in question here.

3:33:58And as you'll see from the consultants report,

3:34:00they have indicated that this space is feasible

3:34:03for this type of usage.

3:34:05However, feasible does not necessarily mean viable.

3:34:10And so for this space to be viable,

3:34:12it needs public sector investment from the city,

3:34:15and most likely from other levels of government.

3:34:18This report does contain preliminary estimates,

3:34:20and of course those could be refined further

3:34:22if we had an identified partner

3:34:24who had specific plans that we could then cost out.

3:34:27But regardless, we know based on the previous market sounding

3:34:30and the request for proposals

3:34:32that were undertaken for this site,

3:34:34that public investment is going to be needed

3:34:36for this project to be viable.

3:34:39And I also just want to emphasize that as you all know

3:34:41from the difficult conversations we had

3:34:43during last year's budget processes,

3:34:45we grappled with overall affordability.

3:34:47A number of existing projects were deferred

3:34:50in our 10-year plan

3:34:51as part of our capital prioritization work.

3:34:53And so that's why the staff recommendation before you

3:34:56comes from that current priority,

3:34:59which is to balance affordability

3:35:01with the need for significant investments in housing,

3:35:03critical infrastructure upgrades

3:35:05and maintaining existing levels of programs

3:35:07and services were possible.

3:35:08And this does leave little capacity

3:35:10to commit to further capital investment

3:35:12or ongoing operating support for the drill hall.

3:35:16We will of course respond in action

3:35:17whatever direction you give us today.

3:35:19My one flag is that we do only have council approval

3:35:22to retain this asset and continue investing

3:35:25in the annual maintenance until today,

3:35:27until this report came forward.

3:35:28So we would just remind you that there is,

3:35:31if there is interest in retaining the asset,

3:35:34we do need that direction today

3:35:36to continue on maintenance and upkeep of the building.

3:35:38And lastly, I of course, want to assure you

3:35:40that regardless of what decisions are made today,

3:35:43our team has a commitment to continue working

3:35:45with the culture community and Guelph

3:35:46to identify and creatively address needs and gaps.

3:35:49Thank you.

3:35:52Thank you.

3:35:53We're gonna move right through to the delegations.

3:35:55We have three of them.

3:35:56So is Susan Reckliffe here?

3:36:02I don't see her.

3:36:04Okay, maybe she'll.

3:36:07Michelle Peek.

3:36:22Hi, Ms. Peek.

3:36:24So I'll give it a drill, no pun intended.

3:36:27But you have five minutes

3:36:32and there'll be a warning at the 32nd order.

3:36:36Okay, thanks.

3:36:37Thank you.

3:36:37Good afternoon everyone.

3:36:38Thanks for having me.

3:36:40You probably know me by now.

3:36:41Dr. Michelle Peek founder and executive director

3:36:43of Art Not Shame.

3:36:44And but just as a sort of recap reminder,

3:36:47Art Not Shame is a community driven art space initiative

3:36:50dedicated to creating inclusive trauma informed spaces

3:36:54where everyone belongs.

3:36:56And after nearly eight years

3:36:57of delivering programming and Guelph,

3:36:58we recently transformed a rundown

3:37:002,600 square foot storefront into an accessible

3:37:03art filled community hub.

3:37:05An achievement met with enthusiasm from the community.

3:37:08The recently released feasibility study

3:37:10exploring potential arts and culture uses for the drill hall

3:37:13names potential operating partners and tenants

3:37:15as well as a potential developer

3:37:16who have come forward or been identified.

3:37:18And we're just here to sort of publicly say

3:37:20that Art Not Shame is that potential operating partner

3:37:22and the local developer and funder

3:37:24is a dedicated patron of our work.

3:37:26This is a donor we have been cultivating a relationship with

3:37:29for the past couple of years

3:37:30and sees the potential of this collaboration

3:37:31due to our eight years of experience

3:37:33in navigating the municipal, provincial,

3:37:35federal arts funding landscape

3:37:37and our ability to start, manage

3:37:38and finish a major capital project.

3:37:41What they bring is a wealth of knowledge

3:37:42from the development world and an interest in funding

3:37:44something that will have a long lasting impact

3:37:46in the community.

3:37:47Their expertise in development combined

3:37:49with our deep community connections

3:37:51makes this an exciting and viable opportunity

3:37:53but one that requires more time.

3:37:56We therefore urge council not to sell the drill hall

3:37:58but instead allow more time to develop

3:38:00a comprehensive proposal with confirmed partners

3:38:02and funders.

3:38:04So why Art Not Shame?

3:38:05We have a full plate.

3:38:06We admittedly did not see ourselves in this position

3:38:08and we wouldn't be here if we didn't see enormous potential

3:38:11for the city of Guelph and the arts community

3:38:13and we believe we're positioned to lead for three reasons.

3:38:16Our history, our mandate

3:38:17and our experience with capital projects.

3:38:20We are a community led organization

3:38:21committed to making arts accessible for individual,

3:38:24social and economic benefit

3:38:25and our work aligns very closely

3:38:27with the Guelph's culture plan priorities.

3:38:29And if you're not familiar with the work

3:38:30I just highly encourage you to check out the exhibit

3:38:32at the Guelph Civic Museum

3:38:33which features three of our major projects

3:38:35over 200 local creators

3:38:37and kind of just really beautifully exemplifies

3:38:39what we try to do

3:38:40which is to bring people together

3:38:41to create tangible change in their lives

3:38:43bridging art for wellbeing and community care

3:38:45and prioritizing the sharing of knowledge

3:38:48for more just practices.

3:38:50So we have the organizational history wherewithal

3:38:52and experience to meet the eligibility thresholds

3:38:54of the sector's major arts and capital grants

3:38:56were the city to pursue a private public partnership

3:38:59which is key.

3:39:00We believe that any use of the drill hall

3:39:02for arts and culture must consider all aspects

3:39:04of accessibility including socio-cultural

3:39:06and cognitive accessibility.

3:39:08For instance, providing space for cultural programming

3:39:10led by indigenous community members,

3:39:11general-neutral bathrooms and so on.

3:39:14We are also led by or have existing relationships

3:39:16with equity-denied community members

3:39:18and have a thorough understanding of experience

3:39:20and working with across diverse access needs.

3:39:22But I should just pause here and say that

3:39:24our role in these early stages

3:39:26is we see as research-driven and strategic.

3:39:30Ensuring this project serves the broader arts community.

3:39:33If it no longer aligns with our collective needs

3:39:35we're prepared to step aside.

3:39:37Our own community arts hubs started as the what if

3:39:40can result in something beautiful

3:39:41and that's what we see here.

3:39:43But our space like many's in town is also precarious

3:39:46given our status as renters and we're subject

3:39:50to the whims of landlords who have already threatened

3:39:52to double our rent in the four years that our lease is up.

3:39:55I recently had a conversation with a prof

3:39:57who specializes in large-scale infrastructure projects

3:40:00and the value of public-private partnerships

3:40:02about the viability of this particular project.

3:40:04And by the end of the conversation

3:40:06he was in the dream with me while holding the very honest

3:40:08reality of what kind of undertaking this would be.

3:40:10At multiple times he resisted me in the conversation

3:40:13but by the end he was all in.

3:40:15And so there is much work to be done

3:40:17to explore whether this is indeed a viable opportunity

3:40:19that genuinely uplifts the arts community

3:40:21and what we need for that is more time.

3:40:24While some initial renderings that I've done

3:40:25show promise for a multi-use art space

3:40:27we do not, for example, have clear answers from heritage

3:40:30about what is and isn't possible.

3:40:32And we think if council is serious

3:40:33about seeing an arts and culture use for the drill hall

3:40:35we need the time to explore this in further depth.

3:40:37So it's with all this in mind that we humbly ask the council

3:40:40to reject the staff recommendation to sell the drill hall

3:40:43and allow us more time to work with his developer

3:40:45slash funder to see what might be possible.

3:40:50Thank you.

3:40:51Are there any questions?

3:40:54Okay, Mayor.

3:40:55Point of order, Mayor.

3:40:56Point of order Chair Downer.

3:40:59I'm rising on a point of order

3:41:01because I'm a bit concerned about this pitch.

3:41:04And I was wondering if staff could please comment.

3:41:06I appreciate the integrity of the organization

3:41:10and this initiative, but I think it is significantly

3:41:14premature as we are in a position that we would have

3:41:17to address this through an RFP.

3:41:20Would that not be true?

3:41:24Yes, of course it would be true that it's an RFP.

3:41:27They're just asking what their ask is, is not to sell it

3:41:31because they have a vision for it that they would want

3:41:33to be part of the solution down the road.

3:41:36Okay, thanks.

3:41:39Okay, no Gatry.

3:41:41Yeah, thank you.

3:41:42I mean, it was almost a little bit along the lines

3:41:44of what councillor Altus said through you, Madam Chair.

3:41:48So I'll just show my cards right now.

3:41:50I don't want to sell the building.

3:41:51Okay, so that's where I'm at.

3:41:53But why are we just hearing about some developer

3:41:57that might be interested?

3:41:58Which is great.

3:42:00But why wasn't that done through the other RFP

3:42:04and all this other open processes

3:42:06that have happened over a couple of years?

3:42:08I guess that's where I'm at on this.

3:42:11It's just like, I love what I'm hearing.

3:42:12Don't get me wrong.

3:42:13I just, like, my gosh, we've had open RFPs

3:42:17and expressions of interest and it all has to be

3:42:21on the up and up and it's so, I'm astonished

3:42:25to hear all of a sudden out of the woodwork,

3:42:27there's just someone that's interested.

3:42:29Which is great, but I just wonder why isn't this person

3:42:32dying all the other stuff that we've had on the table

3:42:35and open doors for this kind of stuff for a couple years?

3:42:40So I'm as astonished because we weren't looking

3:42:44to be in this position or take on this role.

3:42:47We're sort of rolling with things as they roll out.

3:42:49But I think an answer to your question,

3:42:52finding that kind of funder takes time

3:42:55because you have to have a trusted relationship

3:42:58with the funder.

3:42:59So this just happened to be someone

3:43:00that we've been creating a relationship with

3:43:03over the past couple of years as a patron of our work.

3:43:07And so I can't just cold call someone out of the blue

3:43:10and say, hey, do you wanna put in many millions of dollars

3:43:13to this thing?

3:43:14You don't know me or trust me.

3:43:15And not even that I had that strategy in mind,

3:43:18it's just a person we started to get to know.

3:43:20Yeah, so it's not, I hear you and that was if I'm like,

3:43:24I'm sure they're gonna ask why now.

3:43:26And it's just, it's not really in our control.

3:43:28It's just sort of serendipity that this funder came up

3:43:31and in a conversation about he came to our space

3:43:34and I was explaining the process,

3:43:37this other thing going on.

3:43:38I don't know if this is something you're interested in.

3:43:40And it kind of just happened organically,

3:43:42but I also like to Phil's point,

3:43:47like we are not ashamed does not need to be a lead in this.

3:43:51We just see this potential

3:43:53and this funder happens to come through our relationship,

3:43:58but genuinely just don't wanna miss this opportunity.

3:44:02Yeah.

3:44:03Thank you very much for clarifying that.

3:44:05I think I'll just leave it at that

3:44:08because I think we should be cautious a little bit

3:44:11about how far over the nose of our skis we get here

3:44:14a little bit, but again,

3:44:16my questioning was not in a manner to dismiss it at all.

3:44:22So thank you for the clarification.

3:44:24Okay.

3:44:24Are there any other questions?

3:44:27Okay, thank you very much.

3:44:28No problem.

3:44:29Okay.

3:44:32Norma Mendoza.

3:44:51Okay.

3:44:52I think you probably heard me say the five minutes

3:44:55with the 32nd warning.

3:44:58So much.

3:44:59My name is Norma Mendoza.

3:45:01I've been before this council before.

3:45:03My pronouns are sure and I'm here today

3:45:06like Michelle Peake from Art Not Shame

3:45:09to ask that the council pause

3:45:12and reject any motions to sell the drill hall.

3:45:17Obviously, as you've heard from Michelle,

3:45:18there is real interest and potential

3:45:20in realizing the drill hall as an arts and culture space

3:45:23that's actually rooted in support

3:45:25and demonstrated experience from within the community.

3:45:28And I do feel that Art Not Shame could be a lead in that

3:45:31and could also involve other organizations

3:45:34and other stakeholders,

3:45:35given that this land developer has recently come forward

3:45:38to express interest.

3:45:41A little bit about me.

3:45:43For those who may not remember, it's been a little bit.

3:45:46I've been in the arts my entire life.

3:45:48I currently work as a television producer

3:45:50and as a content producer in the visual arts,

3:45:52but I'm also on the board of a much larger organization

3:45:55that's very similar to Art Not Shame

3:45:57located in Toronto called Workman Arts.

3:46:01I've been with that organization for almost 10 years

3:46:04and in 10 years have been part of the strategic initiatives

3:46:09to not only double the programming,

3:46:12triple the membership,

3:46:14but to also make it a viably sustainable,

3:46:17long-term organization that relies on federal,

3:46:20provincial funding,

3:46:22but also well-aligned anchor donors and patrons.

3:46:27I think that instead of offering a lot of what Michelle,

3:46:31or supporting what Michelle has said,

3:46:33I'd like to speak a little bit to the process

3:46:37of the feasibility report.

3:46:41I was involved in the community engagement workshops,

3:46:45which I thought were wonderful.

3:46:47We got to tour the space, got to tour the drill hall.

3:46:51There were a number of other arts-minded folks

3:46:54in those workshops,

3:46:56but one of the things that was not,

3:46:59I don't think deeply addressed,

3:47:02given that it was a workshop

3:47:04and it was just one point in time

3:47:06of a few hours of people gathering

3:47:08was what could the space truly be

3:47:11from a community perspective?

3:47:13We had a lot of folks there who were

3:47:16from dance organizations, visual arts organizations,

3:47:19filmmaking organizations,

3:47:21and there wasn't a consensus necessarily

3:47:24around truly what the drill hall could be

3:47:27to then be able to really meaningfully discuss

3:47:29what that governance model would look like

3:47:31or what that financing path could be.

3:47:33So I think that what Michelle is speaking to

3:47:38with this serendipitous moment

3:47:41of this land developer coming forward

3:47:43is actually the deep dive into that.

3:47:46What could it truly be from a numbers perspective,

3:47:50from a tangible perspective?

3:47:52Not from a consultation with 20 people,

3:47:57of the 20 what-ifs,

3:47:59but what could it genuinely become

3:48:01if we were to budget it,

3:48:03if we were to timeline it,

3:48:04if we were to involve a real construction company?

3:48:07What does that meaningfully look like?

3:48:09Because I actually don't think

3:48:12that we've gotten to that level yet.

3:48:14What I'm aware of in reading the Feasibility Report now

3:48:17is that the building has been put up for sale

3:48:20or it's been offered to the public.

3:48:22It's got a great deal amount of limitations,

3:48:24it's heritage designation, proximity to the railroads.

3:48:27So it doesn't make it a desirable building

3:48:30for purchase in the for-profit space.

3:48:32But what it does do for the not-for-profit space,

3:48:35not just for an organization like Art Not Shame,

3:48:37who is constantly clamoring for pennies

3:48:39to keep their doors open,

3:48:41like many other arts organizations here in the city,

3:48:44is allow for a potential legacy building

3:48:47that is downtown, close to services, close to transportation,

3:48:51and allows for a real hub to be created

3:48:54that can be around for a long time

3:48:57and not have to fight those for-profit constraints

3:49:02that often come with rental, leasing,

3:49:05and the navigation of property.

3:49:07So I'm here to support that.

3:49:09I'm also here to offer that,

3:49:11as some of the, that does currently sit

3:49:13on the Board of Art Not Shame,

3:49:15given that this land developer has come forward.

3:49:17I've been a part of those conversations.

3:49:20I also myself at the executive level

3:49:23do have a wealth of connections and a lot of knowledge

3:49:28in terms of governance models, fiduciary and legal

3:49:32supports for something like this

3:49:34if it was truly a viable project.

3:49:38So thank you very much.

3:49:40Thank you.

3:49:40Are there any questions for Ms. Mendoza?

3:49:46Okay, thank you.

3:49:47Thanks.

3:49:50Okay, are there any questions for staff?

3:49:54Okay, let's put the motion on the floor.

3:50:02I'll put the motion on the floor

3:50:05just to get it on the floor.

3:50:07Or maybe the clerk could jump in.

3:50:12I'm concerned that there's motions coming up

3:50:14that are contrary to this.

3:50:15That's right.

3:50:16So I'm wondering if we could just,

3:50:18it's not normal process,

3:50:20but I'm wondering if we could just go straight

3:50:21to the other motions,

3:50:23if there's really no appetite for us to agree respectfully

3:50:27to the staff position.

3:50:32Okay.

3:50:33Up to you, obviously.

3:50:34That is our normal process,

3:50:35but I think the amendments would be,

3:50:38they're not amendments, they're actually contrary.

3:50:44Let's do the first motion

3:50:46that the drill hall feasibility study be received.

3:50:57Okay.

3:50:58And let's go into questions from that.

3:51:01Are there any questions before we get into the motions

3:51:05of staff?

3:51:08Ms. Guthrie?

3:51:09Thanks, and through you, Madam Chair.

3:51:14I just want to be,

3:51:17I just want staff to maybe just help guide

3:51:20where this might go based on the delegations we just heard.

3:51:24I just want to make sure that

3:51:29the excitement of what we heard

3:51:32doesn't get us ahead of proper processes,

3:51:36transparency, disposition, partnerships,

3:51:41like contracts.

3:51:43So can you just make sure from a staff position

3:51:45that you let everyone know right now,

3:51:47so we're all on the same page,

3:51:49that we'd be careful of where we're waiting into some things

3:51:53in regards to either doing something with the building

3:51:57and or operating.

3:51:59I just think those two things,

3:52:01we just need to be very careful about what we do.

3:52:03And I would love to hear from staff

3:52:04about making sure that we're playing

3:52:06in the right arena right now.

3:52:09Thank you.

3:52:10So through the chair, absolutely.

3:52:12As I said in my opening remarks,

3:52:13one thing that would be vitally important for you to do

3:52:15is if you do have the desire to retain this building,

3:52:18you need to pass that motion giving us direction

3:52:20for Mr. Vilko's team to maintain this building

3:52:24beyond this month.

3:52:25So that would be step one.

3:52:27And then I guess to the question from the mayor,

3:52:29part of why we are here is because the last time

3:52:32that this report came forward and staff recommended

3:52:34declaring the building surplus,

3:52:35there was a different group came to the podium

3:52:39and delegated and made suggestions

3:52:40about what the building could be used for.

3:52:42And you sent us a way to go and do

3:52:43an independent feasibility study.

3:52:46That's what we've delivered.

3:52:47And so recognizing and hearing that there may still be

3:52:50potential in the community for the development

3:52:53of this building, that's great and that's exciting.

3:52:55But from a process point of view,

3:52:57we would certainly recommend that council first,

3:53:02my recommendation would be that you would address

3:53:04the financial because we have already gone out

3:53:06and done a market sounding and a request for proposal

3:53:08with no city involvement financially.

3:53:11And we didn't get a lot of responses

3:53:12and we heard from delegates last time this came forward

3:53:15that that was one of the impediments.

3:53:17So I would suggest that you need to tackle the,

3:53:20is the city prepared to put money into this?

3:53:23And when I say city, I mean as council,

3:53:25are you prepared to put an investment into this building?

3:53:29And then the step would be issuing a follow up request

3:53:33for proposals through an open and transparent process

3:53:36where we tell everyone what the boundaries are.

3:53:40What is the funding if there's capital

3:53:42and or operating available?

3:53:43What is the purpose that you're looking for,

3:53:47the building to be used for?

3:53:48We would then suggest that you give us that direction.

3:53:52So I guess to recap, step one,

3:53:54tell us to retain the building and maintain it.

3:53:57Step two, make a decision about if,

3:54:01and then step three would be to issue an open

3:54:03and transparent RFP direct us to do that

3:54:07so that it is clear to the community

3:54:08and anybody who might be expressing interest.

3:54:11You've heard from delegates today that there is interest,

3:54:13but I think we need to be very, very clear

3:54:15and issue that in an open and transparent way.

3:54:18Okay.

3:54:19Okay, thank you so much.

3:54:20And that's my only question.

3:54:22Okay, I'm gonna go to councillor class and to put,

3:54:26she, okay, let's do a vote on the receipt.

3:54:29Is there, is anyone opposed to the receipt?

3:54:32No one's reposed.

3:54:33Okay, for the rest of the motions,

3:54:36I'm gonna go to councillor class and to put a motion

3:54:39on the floor.

3:54:41Yes. Okay, thank you.

3:54:42And thanks camp for that question

3:54:43because I think it answered a question

3:54:46that I had for staff regarding the primary reason

3:54:53for not recommending the drill hall

3:54:55as a visual art space being the cost.

3:55:00So I'm just gonna read the motions

3:55:01and then I'll speak to my just to pick up some rationale.

3:55:05And I also will apologize.

3:55:07I have a bit of mumbra

3:55:08and I'm 10 weeks postpartum.

3:55:11So please bear with me.

3:55:12So I've got two motions.

3:55:14I've got three motions.

3:55:16I have since been potentially informed

3:55:18that maybe motion two isn't necessary,

3:55:21but I'm gonna read them out

3:55:22just because they're up on the screen already.

3:55:24So the first motion addresses the retention of the drill hall

3:55:29so that we retain 72 Farcora Street as a city owned asset

3:55:33and continue to be responsible and fund

3:55:36and maintain the current state of the structural elements

3:55:38and primary systems estimated at approximately $125,000

3:55:42a year annually.

3:55:44So that just first of all keeps it in our possession

3:55:47and addresses CAO Clackbush's direction.

3:55:55The second part is with regard to funding

3:55:58and identifying potential sources of capital funding.

3:56:01So again, what I've heard from people who applied for the RFP

3:56:07and also from the various studies that have been done

3:56:09is that there needs to be some capital addressed to this.

3:56:13So the second is that staff be directed

3:56:16to identify potential sources of capital funding

3:56:19for the development of a mixed use space,

3:56:21including an arts and cultural center

3:56:25in the former drill hall,

3:56:26as well as to identify the operating budget implications

3:56:29as part of the multi-year budget

3:56:32and to respectfully request that the Americans

3:56:33that are allocating funds to move the project forward

3:56:36in the 2026 budget.

3:56:38And then the third part,

3:56:40I think would address what some of our delegates

3:56:42have come to speak to today

3:56:44in that open and transparent process

3:56:47that once these funds have been identified

3:56:49that city staff will develop an open process

3:56:52to evaluate, identify community partner or partners

3:56:55to transform the drill hall into a mixed use space,

3:56:58including an arts and cultural center,

3:57:00but also respecting the heritage attributes of the building.

3:57:04So those are the three motions.

3:57:06And over the past week,

3:57:09I've been sort of immersing myself

3:57:11in sort of the history of this building

3:57:13and the history of the city's acquisition of it.

3:57:17And I've had discussions with community members,

3:57:20some folks who have been involved

3:57:22in the various parts of the RFPs,

3:57:25they've done walkthroughs,

3:57:26they've been involved in the sounding studies,

3:57:28and they've kind of helped me to get to these motions.

3:57:32And to be short, my perspective is that it's time for council

3:57:36to, and pardon the expression,

3:57:39but to poop or get off the pot with regard to the drill hall.

3:57:43So we acquired it in 2017

3:57:46and we've put a lot of resources into this building.

3:57:49Like financially, we've put already $5 million into it.

3:57:53So I mean, I think that's also saying

3:57:54that we are serious about this building.

3:57:57But we've also heard that to take it any further,

3:58:01it requires more.

3:58:04And by what we've heard from the private sector already,

3:58:07it's challenging to use the building in its current state,

3:58:13but there's still a lot of potential there.

3:58:15And I think that we owe it to the community

3:58:18and to the people who have done a lot of the work

3:58:20over the past eight years in this building

3:58:23to explore that potential use.

3:58:26And finally, like I think there's a lot of creative energy

3:58:33that could be applied to this space.

3:58:35You know, there's potential as an art center,

3:58:38as a cultural center,

3:58:40and I don't wanna speak for my colleagues

3:58:42who have helped input into this,

3:58:44but even for our local business community

3:58:46to be part of this process.

3:58:48And I think it's a real opportunity.

3:58:51And finally, I think, you know,

3:58:55what I hope for this is that we kind of come

3:58:59to the end of the process.

3:59:00We decide, okay, we're going to invest in the drill hall.

3:59:04This is the moment and it's going to be this,

3:59:07and we provide that clear direction to staff,

3:59:09or we absolutely know now that it's not gonna go ahead.

3:59:13So that's the work that I've done.

3:59:16And I hope you consider these motions

3:59:21today, thanks.

3:59:24Okay, and I want to confirm that we did have a seconder

3:59:26with Councillor Kerron.

3:59:29So questions, I had Councillor Gow,

3:59:31I think Councillor Kerron.

3:59:34Thank you, and through you, Chair,

3:59:36thank you, Councillor Klassin.

3:59:38I'm very happy to support this.

3:59:39I did want some clarity about the second motion.

3:59:44The staff report indicates that the cost to renovate

3:59:47the drill hall would be $7.4 million,

3:59:49and they estimate that the city would have to provide

3:59:51$2.5 million of that.

3:59:53So to be clear, does the second motion that's on the floor,

3:59:58does that then direct staff to put $2.5 million

4:00:02from the 2026 budget towards the drill hall?

4:00:05I'm just trying to understand what we're asking exactly.

4:00:11Thanks for the question.

4:00:13Through you, Madam Chair, to Councillor Goller,

4:00:17the language has been suggested.

4:00:19It's not prescriptive with regard to dollar amounts.

4:00:24So there needs to be further,

4:00:27the Visibility Report identifies, and staff can jump in,

4:00:31that Visibility Report identifies cost

4:00:34for developing an institution that is run in whole

4:00:38by the city.

4:00:39So that would mean completely redeveloping the building

4:00:42with capital from the city.

4:00:45And so this language is a little bit more open

4:00:50where we are looking to identify sources of capital

4:00:53that are not just within the city budget.

4:00:56So looking potentially at the province,

4:00:59looking at federal funding as well.

4:01:02If you look into the feasibility study as well,

4:01:05a lot of the operational dollars,

4:01:08and I know I said operational,

4:01:10and I know we're talking about capital,

4:01:12but I think that it's a good point,

4:01:14is that there's mixed funding at multiple levels.

4:01:19So for the arts center,

4:01:21so there's a in the feasibility study,

4:01:23there's four different comparator art centers,

4:01:26and they all have various funding sources.

4:01:29So there's funding from the municipal government,

4:01:33the provincial government, the federal government,

4:01:34and as well as the private sector

4:01:36in the form of things like capital,

4:01:39capital annual capital projects,

4:01:41and other sources of income.

4:01:44So my hope with this is that we would be doing

4:01:47a robust look at what might be available

4:01:50to run a project of this nature,

4:01:55but not necessarily as a council at this juncture,

4:02:00providing that specific number,

4:02:02because I think that we need to have some room

4:02:05for flexibility at this point.

4:02:09Thank you very much, councillor Gals,

4:02:10and I really appreciate that.

4:02:12And if I could just ask the question of staff

4:02:16with the motions that are on the floor,

4:02:21what would it look like?

4:02:23How would you go about that step too

4:02:25in terms of doing the research

4:02:27and involving the community or not for that process?

4:02:32So through the chair,

4:02:33I would not foresee us doing further involvement

4:02:36with the community.

4:02:37That's what this feasibility study did.

4:02:39If this motion were to pass,

4:02:41and obviously there's a connection through to the mayor's,

4:02:45the mayoral direction on the budget,

4:02:46and we would need to work with him on that.

4:02:50But we would take this away and look to see

4:02:52if there were other sources of capital funding,

4:02:55for example, grants,

4:02:57if we think that there's potential for sponsorship,

4:02:59but we would bring that forward as,

4:03:01we would look at sort of different models,

4:03:03and then we would bring that forward

4:03:04through the budget process.

4:03:06First, obviously for the mayor's consideration,

4:03:08and then to come forward to all of council.

4:03:10And it could be a model,

4:03:12and I don't wanna pull numbers out of the air right now,

4:03:14so I won't, where there was,

4:03:16this portion came from the city,

4:03:18and this portion is presumed to be coming

4:03:20from other levels of government,

4:03:21and we would then issue any sort of open call based on that.

4:03:27So I think it's a little bit premature,

4:03:30but we would need to take that away

4:03:32and work that through.

4:03:33But no, we have completed the feasibility study,

4:03:36and I just wanna be clear,

4:03:38we would not be intending to go back out

4:03:40and have further community conversations

4:03:41until we got to the point of having that open proposal.

4:03:46That is very helpful.

4:03:47Thank you very much.

4:03:47I will be happy to support this motion

4:03:49to keep this building in the public space.

4:03:52Thank you, Chair.

4:03:55Thank you, Councillor Caron.

4:03:57Just thank you, Chair Downer.

4:04:00I do have some comments afterwards,

4:04:02but I did wanna amend motion too.

4:04:04As the mover, Councillor Clausson, said,

4:04:07it may be redundant,

4:04:08but I think that there's value in restating it,

4:04:11but the mayor did give some budget direction this morning

4:04:14on staff working to identify potential sources

4:04:17of capital funding.

4:04:19And this motion asked the mayor to add that

4:04:23to his mayoral direction.

4:04:25So it's a very slight amendment,

4:04:27saying that Council supports the mayoral direction

4:04:30that was given this morning to investigate those funds.

4:04:34So it's a minor amendment,

4:04:36and I'll ask for a seconder.

4:04:37I believe the mayor has seconded.

4:04:40And then once the amendment has been voted on,

4:04:43I do have some comments as well.

4:04:45Okay, is there a seconder for that motion?

4:04:49Mio-Gretri?

4:04:50Yeah.

4:04:52Can you do that?

4:04:55Anyway, is there any question or comment on that?

4:04:58So...

4:04:59I support myself, yeah.

4:05:00Okay, is there any opposition to that amendment?

4:05:04Okay, so that passes.

4:05:07Okay.

4:05:09I had a long narrative here,

4:05:10and I know I don't wanna use up my five minutes.

4:05:13So I've just distilled it down to five main points.

4:05:16First, I wanna thank the mover,

4:05:17Councillor Klossin, for bringing forward the recommendations.

4:05:22I think we have a unique opportunity here.

4:05:24It's not just a once in a lifetime.

4:05:26I can't think of a singular property anywhere

4:05:28in the downtown that could potentially yield

4:05:30the same public benefit that this building does.

4:05:33So there's five main points I wanna make.

4:05:35And the first is that we have a designated building

4:05:38under the Ontario Heritage Act

4:05:40that we have already invested in

4:05:42because we have deemed it worthy of conservation

4:05:45as a cultural heritage asset.

4:05:47Number two, we know that adaptive reuse

4:05:50of heritage buildings for community use has proven,

4:05:52and lots of research to show,

4:05:54out of the Heritage Resources Centre

4:05:57and our own experience with the Guelphier Music Centre,

4:06:00the Boathouse, et cetera,

4:06:02that's proven to have positive economic development,

4:06:05tourism, commercial and social benefits.

4:06:08The third point, we have a longstanding

4:06:10and well-documented need going back to 2004

4:06:15with a feasibility study by the Arts Council

4:06:18of the need for community arts space.

4:06:20In fact, we used to run community arts programs

4:06:22decades ago to the Delhi Rec Centre.

4:06:25And I remember my children more than 30 years ago

4:06:29going to some of those programs.

4:06:31And not just community art space,

4:06:33we have a longstanding and well-documented need

4:06:37space for celebrating, sharing and conserving

4:06:40Indigenous knowledge, and the potential for that is here.

4:06:43Reconciliation has been on our agenda

4:06:46as part of our Indigenous framework.

4:06:47Here's our opportunity.

4:06:49We have the bicentennial coming.

4:06:51This is our opportunity.

4:06:53We also, number four, have a feasibility study

4:06:56that concludes that the Drill Hall is appropriate,

4:06:59is feasible for use as a community arts and cultural space

4:07:02and that it can be potentially functionally

4:07:06sustainable over the long term.

4:07:08We have a cultural plan, action plan.

4:07:11We have a, it is part of our strategic plan.

4:07:15It's embedded in our strategic plan.

4:07:17And my whole first page of notes was every single pillar

4:07:20of our strategic plan, from downtown to social infrastructure

4:07:25to hereditary retention, to investing in community space.

4:07:30It's embedded throughout our strategic plan.

4:07:33And finally, the affordability and the livability

4:07:37and the quality of life of all residents,

4:07:39including children, seniors, youth, housed, unhoused,

4:07:44minorities, differently abled,

4:07:46marginalized and racialized communities.

4:07:49All of those are key components of city building.

4:07:52And city building includes social infrastructure.

4:07:56So that's what we're doing today.

4:07:58That's why I'm supporting this wholeheartedly

4:08:00and I look forward in, and thank you to our delegations

4:08:02for sharing their visions.

4:08:04Cause I look forward to those visions becoming reality.

4:08:10Other, any, Councillor Allt and then Councillor Caden.

4:08:17Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

4:08:19Sorry, I'm in my car.

4:08:20I'm waiting to help a neighbor come back from hospital.

4:08:23He just had a hip operation.

4:08:26I am very, very happy to support this motion.

4:08:29I think it's fundamental to downtown revitalization.

4:08:33I think it also as, as Councillor Caron stated,

4:08:36it is, is elemental in the 200th anniversary of wealth.

4:08:40And there's many people that will be positively gleeful

4:08:43that there's something that can be looked forward to

4:08:45in that period.

4:08:47But there's other reasons as well.

4:08:48And I think one of the first ones is that I believe

4:08:50it was in 2011, at least two members of this council

4:08:54who were on council at that point,

4:08:56endorsed the idea of the, of retaining the drill hall

4:09:00in some form because of its heritage attributes,

4:09:03which had already been identified by Metrolinx

4:09:07when the province declared it a heritage structure worthy

4:09:11of preservation.

4:09:12Equally not to be lost is that this links Wyndham street.

4:09:16It links the new library all the way down to, to beyond

4:09:21the Metrolinx CN lines and provides a foundation

4:09:24for economic tourism.

4:09:26And not to be missed is the idea that we do have

4:09:29the capacity now for a true cultural center

4:09:33that recognizes indigeneity, which we should not lose.

4:09:37Similarly, it's a fun fact about Guelph.

4:09:39Guelph's main street at one point was actually the rail line

4:09:44leaving Guelph heading to Cambridge.

4:09:46That now you'll see if you go down Kent street

4:09:49is bordered on each side by Kent.

4:09:52This is a cultural center that is returning to Guelph's roots,

4:09:56something that is very important.

4:09:58So for this reason, I thank both the delegates

4:10:00and I thank the mover for having, having the wherewithal

4:10:04to point out that this matters.

4:10:06I'd also point out this is clearly a ward two day,

4:10:09both ward two counselors got in

4:10:11in the public service aspects of, of our meeting.

4:10:17Councillor Caton.

4:10:24Thank you.

4:10:26Through you chair, Downer.

4:10:27I just had a question for staff.

4:10:29And I spoke with the mover and I believe the intent

4:10:33for the culture component to contain

4:10:38like indigenous content.

4:10:40And I heard that from Councillor Caron as well.

4:10:44And I just wanted to clarify if staff will take that on

4:10:48as they're creating their RFP process, if this passes,

4:10:53or if that's something that we have to direct staff to do.

4:11:02Yeah, so certainly through the chair,

4:11:04as we bring this forward, first assuming these motions pass

4:11:07first through budget, the first would be that sort of business

4:11:10model or that proposal for how it's get considered

4:11:13through budget, but then if that, if that were to pursue

4:11:16beyond the budget step, and we were moving on to the step

4:11:20of issuing an RFP or some sort of looking for an open call,

4:11:24we would absolutely use our equity lens, including

4:11:28indigenous sort of considerations, I would say,

4:11:32when we look to develop that open call.

4:11:36Great, thank you very much.

4:11:38With that in mind, then I completely support these motions

4:11:41and I'll be voting for them.

4:11:46Are there any other comments or questions?

4:11:51Mayor Gretchen.

4:11:52Yeah, thank you.

4:11:53And just a heads up, I do have some additional motions

4:11:56for consideration after the bulk of this goes to Madam Chair.

4:12:00But yeah, I just want to say that for me,

4:12:03like from the beginning really, the crux of this issue

4:12:07is that we spent like $5 million on this building

4:12:11just like three years ago.

4:12:13And like there's just, to me it would be completely,

4:12:19it's kind of a darn if you do darn if you don't moment,

4:12:21but like we spent $5 million on this building,

4:12:25and then to basically say, you know,

4:12:26we're not gonna do anything with it now,

4:12:28it just, I can't go there.

4:12:30I just, I cannot go to that place.

4:12:33So yeah, it means that we're gonna have to try

4:12:35to figure out something as we move forward.

4:12:37And that's on capital at a minimum.

4:12:41And so, but I also wanted to say,

4:12:44it's gonna mean choices, right?

4:12:45Like, and that happens every year regardless.

4:12:48So it's not, I'm not telling you,

4:12:50telling council anything we don't already know.

4:12:52But it means some things are not gonna be in

4:12:55for something like this to get in, right?

4:12:58Because we did already defer a billion dollars.

4:13:05We already deferred a billion dollars in capital

4:13:08and infrastructure and renewal upgrades.

4:13:11So it, this is important.

4:13:14I think we're all nodding our head that this is important,

4:13:18but it just means that choices are gonna be coming, okay?

4:13:21So just, you know, be aware.

4:13:23And we as a group, as a team, we'll wade through that, okay?

4:13:26We'll do that when that moment comes.

4:13:29But I think I just would like to say thank you

4:13:31as Councillor Caron said, Councillor Klassen, you know,

4:13:37has championed this.

4:13:40And I think she's done a great job on that.

4:13:44Moving this forward with discussions

4:13:46with a lot of us and community too.

4:13:50I'm really glad that we did.

4:13:56Like I think, I don't even know I'm so sorry,

4:14:00but I felt the report was quite good.

4:14:03And so I just really appreciated that, how that landed.

4:14:08And I'm excited to actually just not have a building

4:14:13that's boarded up and costing $150,000 a year doing nothing.

4:14:18It's got, we gotta own it and we gotta move forward

4:14:23on something that's gonna be beneficial to the city.

4:14:26And so yeah, I'm really glad that I think,

4:14:31I think many of us are on the same page on this.

4:14:33And so anyways, we'll let you call the vote

4:14:36and then we'll, I don't know, I can too.

4:14:41So my just final comment would be, you know,

4:14:44it's Kudlow's Councillor Klassen for bringing this forward.

4:14:49I think it would be a missed opportunity for us

4:14:51to not go as far as we can with this building.

4:14:57And as Councillor Caron says, this has been on the books

4:15:01for many, many, many, many years

4:15:03to have some kind of a cultural center.

4:15:04We have an opportunity, a synergy here.

4:15:08And I just keep been thinking for the last couple of weeks

4:15:11of, you know, other missed opportunities in the city,

4:15:15namely the post office and how that was once to be the library

4:15:19and it would have been a Main Street library.

4:15:20And so I sort of think of those lost opportunities

4:15:24and there's been others that this would go down

4:15:27in the city books as one of those,

4:15:29if we did not pursue something that has been on the books

4:15:34for a long time in our city and would cost us,

4:15:37because it's on the books, down the road at some point,

4:15:41a lot more than this, because we've already invested

4:15:44the money and this is something I do think

4:15:47we can get community partners for.

4:15:48And I was happy to see the mixed juice in there

4:15:50because that brings even more partners

4:15:53that it could be parts of an art center

4:15:56and something else as well.

4:16:01So I will call their vote.

4:16:03Is there anyone opposed to the motion?

4:16:08Seeing none, that does pass unanimously.

4:16:10Thank you.

4:16:11And Mayor Guthrie, you have some follow up motions.

4:16:14Yeah, thank you.

4:16:15I don't have a seconder, so I'll make my.

4:16:17Or a point of order.

4:16:19Go ahead.

4:16:20Go ahead.

4:16:21I just, I wanted to clarify, did we pass both motion one,

4:16:24two and three as part of that vote as amended?

4:16:29So the all three of them can't.

4:16:34Yes.

4:16:35Okay.

4:16:35Thank you.

4:16:36Yes, we did.

4:16:37Perfect. Thanks.

4:16:38Thanks for the clarification.

4:16:43Madam Chair, is that okay if I take the phone out?

4:16:45Thank you.

4:16:47So, shouldn't surprise anybody.

4:16:50I'm trying to think of the box a little bit,

4:16:52but still maintain everything that we just did.

4:16:55Okay. So everything that we just passed,

4:16:57I want to try to keep, not try, I want to keep that.

4:17:01But one of the permissions that's not available there

4:17:04right now is the permission for residential.

4:17:08And there can be, there can be opportunities

4:17:13for potential residential there

4:17:15if we get permissions from the province.

4:17:17So I'd like to, I'd like to just put the motions on the,

4:17:22the motion on the, on there.

4:17:23I'll read it out here that the chief administrative officer

4:17:26be directed to advocate to the provincial government

4:17:28for the necessary permissions to allow residential development

4:17:31at this site.

4:17:33And if necessary, permissions are not obtained

4:17:36or if no potential development proposals are received

4:17:38by September 30th, 2025,

4:17:40that no further staff time to advocate

4:17:42for these permissions is required.

4:17:43Basically a six month like kind of window.

4:17:46Okay. I don't want to prolong it.

4:17:48And, and I just want to be very clear.

4:17:50It's keeping the structure.

4:17:52It's keeping the structure of the heritage,

4:17:54everything about it.

4:17:56There, there can be ways, I think,

4:17:59of ability to do residential above it

4:18:02by maintaining the heritage structure.

4:18:04And, you know, I saw a stop there.

4:18:08I have lots more to say,

4:18:09but I would need a seconder, so I'll just be quiet.

4:18:12Okay. Councillor Boussatilla,

4:18:14you okay with that chair downer?

4:18:16Councillor Boussatilla?

4:18:17Councillor Boussatilla is seconding it.

4:18:18Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much.

4:18:20So I'll just continue a little bit.

4:18:21So I don't know if it's doable.

4:18:23I don't, I have, I don't know if this is doable,

4:18:26but I think we owe it to at least ask.

4:18:29And if the, if the answer comes back and it's no,

4:18:31I, that's fine.

4:18:32We still are doing everything that we just agreed to do.

4:18:34Keep it, you know, get fine, try to find some capital,

4:18:37try to find some operating, do another RFP.

4:18:39That's fine.

4:18:40I often hear about artists and those in arts

4:18:47that have difficult finding places to live.

4:18:49We could create an RFP if we got the permissions back

4:18:54to make it affordable housing as an example.

4:18:57So I don't know what the heights would be.

4:19:00That could all come back.

4:19:01That could all come back to us for,

4:19:02because we're in charge.

4:19:03We would be in charge of what the RFP position would be,

4:19:06would be like if we get those permissions.

4:19:09But I would love to just at least have the ability

4:19:13to look people in the eye and say,

4:19:15we also asked to see if some residential permissions

4:19:17could be here.

4:19:18And if it's a no go, that's fine.

4:19:20Then at least we can say we asked.

4:19:23If it was possible, and if the stars aligned,

4:19:26and we could also do residential above it,

4:19:28now we are, now we are turning an underperforming asset

4:19:32from a revenue perspective into a performing asset

4:19:35that would start to actually year over year in perpetuity,

4:19:38bring property tax dollars to that site.

4:19:41And so I would like us to at least explore it with the CAO

4:19:45and me advocating to the province to see if it's doable.

4:19:49And if it's not, it's not.

4:19:51And that's what my motion is.

4:19:54I'll stop right there.

4:19:56Thank you.

4:19:57Councillor Corrine.

4:19:59Yes, thank you.

4:20:01A question about the motion to the mover,

4:20:04it said provincial government.

4:20:06And it is my understanding that the regulations

4:20:09that prevent us from exploring residential

4:20:12are Metrolinx.

4:20:14So do you want to clarify that?

4:20:17Should we add Metrolinx to the motion?

4:20:19What do you think about the amendment?

4:20:24I can see staff wanting to jump in.

4:20:26I'm happy to say it,

4:20:27but maybe you'll best hear from staff.

4:20:29So through Chair Downer,

4:20:32it's our understanding that that is a provincial agency.

4:20:34And so we would take that, take the wording as is

4:20:37and not need to specify the actual name of the entities.

4:20:41Yeah, we'd be at the provincial level of government.

4:20:43That's right.

4:20:44That's good.

4:20:45And just as a comment, I do agree it's worth exploring.

4:20:51I have reservations about the challenges of building up

4:20:54and into a larger structure above the existing structure,

4:20:58just due to the heritage elements

4:21:00and the structural work we've done.

4:21:01But the idea of live work studios within an art center

4:21:06requires some residential permissions.

4:21:09So I think at that level,

4:21:10there's some merit to the motions.

4:21:14Thank you.

4:21:17Okay. Are there any other questions?

4:21:18Councillor Caton.

4:21:22Thank you. Through you, Chair Downer.

4:21:24I have a question to staff.

4:21:26Can you explain what the current rules

4:21:30from Metrolinx kind of state

4:21:32as to why residential is not allowed there?

4:21:39Through the mayor, through Councillor Caton.

4:21:41Our understanding is that Metrolinx

4:21:44does have development guidelines

4:21:47that do restrict development

4:21:50that's too close to the rails due to potential rail

4:21:56trained derailments.

4:21:56So they have different setbacks

4:21:59for different kinds of buildings.

4:22:02So we would have to take a look at what we'd like to build

4:22:06or what we'd like to propose

4:22:07and then explore that with Metrolinx.

4:22:13Thank you. Second question.

4:22:19This is to staff.

4:22:20Given how many complaints we get from other residential

4:22:23that is close to tracks,

4:22:28is what kind of impact do you think this is gonna have

4:22:32on bylaw and noise complaints

4:22:34and other kind of residential feedback

4:22:38residential were to be in that location?

4:22:43Through the mayor to Council,

4:22:44Katen that's something we'd have to take a look at.

4:22:46One of the things that as you look through,

4:22:48I just took a quick look through the development guidelines

4:22:51for Metrolinx and one of the things that they do look at,

4:22:54the other things they do look at other than proximity

4:22:57to the rail lines is also air quality and a noise.

4:23:01So they're concerned about that too.

4:23:02So we would have to somehow demonstrate

4:23:05that we were going to mitigate those concerns.

4:23:09The issue with this is that the building is existing.

4:23:12So if this was a new development,

4:23:13there would be opportunities to put in things

4:23:16like crash walls or noise attenuation walls

4:23:19or things like that.

4:23:21Because this is an existing building,

4:23:23those possibilities might be somewhat limited,

4:23:27but we'd have to take a look at it

4:23:29because we haven't looked at it for this site yet.

4:23:32We'd also have to do from a planning perspective,

4:23:35look at the zoning of that site as well

4:23:36because right now it's not zoned residential.

4:23:41Thanks, final question.

4:23:43So with the zoning change,

4:23:45would that be reopening our official plan?

4:23:48Would that, how would that process work?

4:23:54Through the Mayor to Council, Kate,

4:23:55and what we could do is come back to you

4:23:57with just a process of what that looks like.

4:23:59It would be an official plan amendment

4:24:01and a zoning bylaw amendment.

4:24:04So we would have to go through the planning process

4:24:07to complete that just like we would with any other,

4:24:11any one of those planning processes.

4:24:15And I'm sorry, I lied.

4:24:16This is my final question now.

4:24:18So if we were to do that and go through the process,

4:24:22would public feedback be a part of that process

4:24:25before any changes were made?

4:24:27Through the chair to Council, Kate and Edward.

4:24:30Okay, thank you very much.

4:24:33Thank you, Councillor Allt, did you have a question?

4:24:39You're muted.

4:24:40You're muted.

4:24:42Councillor Allt, we can't hear you.

4:24:50No, we can't hear you, Councillor Allt.

4:24:54Councillor Allt, we can't hear you.

4:24:57Can you hear me now?

4:24:58Yes.

4:24:59Can you hear me now?

4:25:00Perfect. Yes, I can.

4:25:02Okay, I was plugged into the car.

4:25:04I'm actually going to speak in favor of the motion.

4:25:07When I originally saw it,

4:25:08I was a bit concerned that it was implying

4:25:10that it would be residential

4:25:12as a substitution for a cultural arts center.

4:25:16But the way that the mayor explained it,

4:25:19it makes perfect sense to examine co-op lofts

4:25:23or possibly live work units,

4:25:26the type of which that he's talked about.

4:25:29There might be some incredible impediments to it,

4:25:31but the short runway that has also been provided

4:25:35makes this something that is not,

4:25:37something that will delay a potential cultural center,

4:25:40but will actually expedite what it could be

4:25:43and seeks an original use for it

4:25:46that also complements the need for housing.

4:25:50Okay, thank you.

4:25:51Are there any other comments or questions?

4:25:53I'm going to go right to the question then.

4:25:56Is there anyone opposed to the motion?

4:26:01Seeing none, that passes.

4:26:03Boy, we're in a lot of agreement today.

4:26:08And that's it then I think.

4:26:09Thank you very much for answering our questions.

4:26:12And I know it's been a bit of a rush

4:26:15over the last couple of days

4:26:17as counselors try to formulate their thoughts on this issue.

4:26:21And I appreciate the work

4:26:23and probably a lot of over time

4:26:26and thought that thoughtfulness

4:26:28that our staff have put into the responses

4:26:30to counselors questions as we try to grapple with,

4:26:33like how do we do this and how can we?

4:26:35And I'm sure there might be more

4:26:37before the end of the month.

4:26:39So I just wanted to do express our appreciation

4:26:42for that.

4:26:43Are there any staff announcements?

4:26:48Seeing none, I'll look for a motion to adjourn.

4:26:51Councillor Bousetail, seconded by Councillor Caiten.

4:26:54Thank you very much.

4:26:56We'll see you again.

4:26:59Oh, all those opposed.

4:27:02No.