Advisory Committees of Council Governance Framework, included as Attachment-1 to report 2023-413, dated November 6, 2023, be approved. That City staff…

18:24And now we are going to the next one which is redesigning advisory committees of council a governance framework

18:30We've got lots of presenters presenters here today starting with our clerk

18:34And then others will follow with several recommendations actually six of them

18:39So, uh, let's listen into their presentation

18:43Both from our internal and some external

18:46staff as well

18:48especially with the

18:49Combo from the the Guelph lab from the university, which is

18:53We're pretty fortunate to have had that connection. So

18:56Over to you to our clerk. Yes. Thank you, mr. Mayor and through you to council

19:01I think you hit the nail on the head. We're very fortunate to have the Guelph lab as a partnership here in the city of Guelph

19:06We're pleased to bring forward this pretty significant body of work that's been carried out by the team at the Guelph lab in concert with the city clerk's office

19:15Um, I'll hand it off to dr. Levac shortly

19:18But the the piece that I wanted to share most predominantly is that

19:22In our in our assertion and our assumption and our review. This is probably the most

19:27comprehensive review that's been done of its nature certainly

19:31In guelph's time, but it's also probably going to be looked towards in our whole sector as a model for a go forward path with this type of review

19:41Um, and then we're again, I can't say how how pleased and fortunate I am to have been working with this group

19:47And so with that I'll hand it off to dr. Levac

19:59Everyone hear me. Okay. Did I get that on?

20:02amazing, okay

20:04It's nice to see everyone. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you

20:08For setting the context for us, uh, steven and also

20:12For supporting this work

20:14My name is dr. Leila vac

20:16My colleagues dr. Weyan chan and sam laban are also here

20:20I also want to start by acknowledging that we're we undertook this work

20:25In the treaty lands and territories of the mississauga's of the credit

20:29And for us this sort of brings with it a responsibility to think about

20:33Colonization and its consequences as we're thinking about transforming western governance systems

20:40It's a real pleasure to be able to share this report with you today

20:44And to highlight some of its key features

20:47As well as the process that we undertook to develop it

20:50So i'm going to provide a little bit of an overview of the of the contents of the report

20:55And then hand it over to offer a high level of

20:59Overview of some of the key

21:00Features of the framework

21:05So this slide lists the names of all current acoc members in the city

21:09It's important for recognizing their contribution

21:12But also as a reminder that nearly 100 residents of guelph dedicate their time knowledge and ideas

21:19To the city throughout their work as acoc members every year

21:23We are grateful for their contributions

21:25And hope that this framework will facilitate an even more meaningful contribution from them

21:30And all residents who follow

21:34The premise of the framework is that acocs can and should play a vital role in municipal governance

21:40They are important for several reasons including that they can contribute to the city's commitments to democracy

21:46And community engagement

21:48They can contribute to the effectiveness legitimacy and justice of democratic governance

21:54And they can contribute to better policy outcomes

21:57As one staff member noted

21:59If you have the right people at the table, they can really bring some very fine-tuned expertise

22:05That either our staff don't have or that would complement the expertise that our staff do have

22:12They can also provide benefits for residents who participate as noted on the slide

22:17One resident told us I really had no idea exactly what would be asked of me

22:22But as things move forward, I realized that I have a greater interest

22:26In working to help improve the project and protect my city

22:29I was never one with any political aspirations, but I find myself leaning that way

22:35Another participant told us my participation has broadened my perspective

22:40Meeting other members with different personal and professional backgrounds has made this happen

22:46So acocs are a big experiment in democracy

22:50Uh, they as I've just elaborated

22:52There are hundreds of people in guelph who have served on them and thousands across the province and the country

22:59But we know very little about them and their operation

23:04They have suffered from a lack of attention both from research and evaluation and in terms of supporting resources

23:11They also struggled to respond to systemic power imbalances and barriers to participation

23:16A point that is clear in the community engagement literature

23:19And was echoed by residents who contributed to developing the framework

23:24In essence realizing their full benefit while responding to these challenges was what prompted this project

23:30As such the purpose of the framework is to guide the creation design function and evaluation of acocs in guelph

23:41So how did we create this work as was already noted by the mayor this project was supported by the guelph lab

23:47Which is a partnership between the university and the city it is housed within the university at the community engaged scholarship institute

23:55We do work that brings together academic and non-academic partners to identify and respond to community identified problems

24:03The guelph lab is a really important initiative for advancing better municipal practice and innovative partnerships

24:10It is worth noting that this model has also informed similar initiatives elsewhere

24:16Under this umbrella there were several people instrumental to this work

24:20I want to acknowledge the deputy clerk dylan mcman as well as liz barber from the clerk's office

24:26Uh, dr. Simon peck dr. Sean gobie and dr. Anthony piscatelli from the universities of victoria waterloo and conestoga college

24:34Who are collaborators on this work?

24:36graduate research assistants asa colman and cloy carducci and of course my colleagues who are here today

24:42I especially want to note the work of dr. Chan who implemented all of the components of this research

24:49I also want to note two groups of residents who were extensively involved and whose

24:55Contributions are explained in the report. The first was the working group of eight existing acoc members

25:01They included a lennie back upulis Samantha casey liam herrington

25:06Carol lohus mike potter mark rick and rado

25:10the

25:11Saxena and dilip schind

25:14As well as a three-person community review panel olabangi akande gallo garcia and joanne schuller

25:23Finally, I want to acknowledge the city's community engagement staff glenn lombard tracy search and kelly guthrie

25:29Who met with us co-hosted sessions?

25:32Brainstormed ideas and so on. We're really grateful for their support and attention

25:37So finally before I hand it in over to dr. Chan

25:41I'd like to highlight the data collection and community engagement methods we used to gather the information to inform this framework

25:49Everyone we heard from is listed on the slide including current acoc members city staff staff from other municipalities

25:57members of city council and residents of course, we also completed a comprehensive

26:02Literature review. I'll now turn it over to dr. Chan to provide an overview of some of the key dimensions of the framework

26:12Thank you, lear

26:13Part one of the flame work highlights seven commitments that should apply to or acoc

26:19The first commitment

26:20acoc are a form of community engagement

26:23The second commitment acoc should also shape city strategic goals as highlighted in the relevant documents

26:30To provide the city with long-term high level guidance

26:34The third commitment acoc should adopt a deliberative approach

26:38Which means that participants engage in an informed

26:41Facilitated dialogue and hearing over thoughtful reasons in support of their positions

26:47The fourth commitment acoc should contribute leading and professional expertise

26:53The fifth one acoc should have diverse membership i.e. We should address barriers to participation

27:01The sixth commitment is there should be clear communication between acocs and city council

27:07The last commitment acoc should adequately resources

27:14Part two of the flame work outlines a process for creating and designing acoc

27:19There are four stages in stage one

27:22We should consider if an acoc the best community engagement option for the problem or topic

27:28Is it required by legislation?

27:31Is the topic appropriate for an acoc?

27:33Is an acoc and an appropriate engagement too and are there sufficient

27:38resources to support the proposed acoc?

27:41If an acoc is needed in stage two, we should consider its topic and purpose membership composition

27:49Recruitment methods and who is the appropriate staff liaison

27:54Stage three describes some operational features of acoc

27:57There are a checklist of activities and tasks for creating an acoc which you follow

28:03Stage four is about evaluation of acoc including reviewing the terms of reference

28:09creating self-assessment tools

28:11Preparing a package of report to be submitted to council the end of the first year of a new term of acoc

28:20Here are the six critical features of acoc supported and endorsed by acoc working group

28:27Which is highlighted in the final appendix in the long version flame work

28:32They strongly hope to have

28:34effective communication between acoc members and city council

28:38Start liaison with strategic level responsibilities

28:42Clear up-to-date regular revisit terms of reference

28:46New recruitment efforts to engage with and recruit diverse members for acoc

28:51compensation and coverage of participation related expenses and

28:55Atcourt resources to support the full functioning of acoc

28:59Thank you very much. And I will pass to Dylan. He will talk about the next step of the acoc project. Thank you

29:08Mr. Mayor members of council, thanks for having us here today

29:12We're obviously very

29:14Eager and excited to be presenting the culmination of phase one of this work

29:17I'm going to talk about next steps just for a minute or two at the end

29:21Because there's a lot of exciting stuff to get done following the end of this month and the approval of this

29:26framework

29:28So with the approval of that framework phase one of the redesigning advisory committees of council project

29:34Ceases and we enter into phase two taking place throughout all of next year with final reporting back to council around this time in q4

29:412024 the purpose of phase two is to take the framework and apply it to all of our existing advisory committees

29:48As if they were new committees

29:49So starting from the ground up working committee by committee in a collaborative approach including all advisory committee members

29:56The advisory committees themselves staff at the gualph lab and university of gualph and city staff

30:01To be able to provide collaborative suite of recommendations to city council at the end of 2024

30:06Um

30:07That will include I think some pretty significant changes to our advisory committees

30:11So significant terms of reference changes

30:14Narrowing of scope broadening of scope potentially disillusions

30:18mergers of committees

30:20That that type of work

30:21So there's a lot of work to do in phase two

30:23But we want to make sure following the approval of this framework that all of our advisory committees are able to operate

30:29Consistently with the framework that we're hoping council will approve at the end of the month

30:33There are resources required to implement this framework and that's outlined in the report

30:38There are resources included in the multi-year budget being presented to city council tomorrow

30:43Which would enable us to implement the framework for a number of advisory committees. That's roughly consistent with our comparators

30:49So in the seven to ten eight to eleven range

30:52um, it was important in the framework and it was unanimously supported by the

30:56Advisory committee working group that in order to be effective committees need to be resourced effectively

31:02And that's why we've got those resources included in the multi-year budget and that will underpin to some extent the work done in phase two of the project

31:10That concludes the presentation, but of course we're happy to answer any questions you might have

31:15Great. Thank you very very much and uh, maybe I could just ask to have the recommendations all six of them at least tabled

31:22so sure i'll go um with clausen and

31:26and gibson

31:27And then I think I saw coran with or was it busitil with hand up and then coran

31:32Uh, and then i'll make my way uh around the horseshoe here, but let's start with you two first with questions. Okay

31:38Actually, maybe today we could go questions and if you like if you seem like you're wanting to have a comment to kind of finish it off

31:46Just do it at the same time. That's fine. Thank you very much. Thank you for the presentation and through the mayor

31:51Great report read the long version

31:54Um, and so I have a couple of questions about uh the report

31:59Uh, the first question is about the evaluation

32:02Recommendation there. I was a little bit surprised that it it's not an annual

32:07Evaluation given that volunteers come and go and so on and in you know other kind of community work

32:13It's often an annual because there may be some changes if you can speak to that and then I have a couple of follow-up

32:21Sure. Um, thank you through you. Uh, mr. Mayor to councillor busitil first. Thanks for reading the whole thing

32:28um, and uh

32:31second

32:33In the the discussion around building the evaluation framework

32:38was really a discussion about

32:41striking a balance between

32:44Uh creating a robust mechanism for understanding how how work was evolving

32:51with and by the committee

32:54while not

32:56uh, creating so much in administrative

33:00Work that the work that the work of the committee would get supplanted by the work of the evaluation

33:07So the idea is that the framework

33:11The idea in the evaluative framework is that um

33:16Is that because it takes some time to onboard a committee

33:20And then they would work on sort of establishing

33:25And building on their goals and objectives and then they would work on building

33:29Sort of some tools for what they would like to accomplish and thus how they would understand their effectiveness

33:35The extent to which they were being representative and so on other dimensions

33:39outlined

33:41And because all of that work has to be completed

33:44Before the sort of final six months of a final term of council in order for it to sort of stay out of the political fray

33:51You actually end up with only a

33:54couple of years

33:56You know it within that cycle. So it's really a practical

34:00um consideration to try and

34:02Meet the needs for ongoing evaluation without

34:07Uh, yeah without adding additional administrative burden that would take away from the work of the committee

34:13Did what there's I think uh, sam would like to add something

34:18If I could and through you mr. Mayor um, we also set that as the minimum

34:23so if

34:24If there was a circumstance where the where committee members or staff or council felt that that particular committee wasn't performing well

34:31Or that there were serious concerns. There's nothing to preclude additional evaluation

34:35um, and we also recommended exit interviews for

34:39Members that are leaving before the evaluation is completed. So we wanted to set as lia said

34:43balance practicality with

34:46routine and rigor

34:47And not preclude additional evaluation if and when needed

34:51Thank you for the comprehensive response

34:54The next question I had is about the is about the framework and and you speak about this in your report

34:59That as council is making the decision or the recommendations come forward of you know, is an advisory committee needed?

35:05Yes, or no, and and you talked about community engagements as other

35:11mechanisms

35:13To get the information and to get the feedback and the engagement and so on

35:17I wondered whether or not you also looked at kind of the tentacles into other council appointments

35:22And I was I wrote down here the g rca

35:25public health

35:27Other kinds of agencies that us as counselors are representative on whether there are questions

35:33policy questions that we can take to those bodies to seek input

35:39Not that it is their mandate, but it's a different kind of engagement

35:44Looking at those agencies and the reason I asked this is the special education advisory committees on school boards

35:50There is the advisory committee, but each of those members have

35:55Autism as you know, Ontario and other kinds of representatives and their purpose is to take the questions

36:01Back to the reference groups and so I'm wondering if you looked at that as part of that engagement framework

36:08Through you mr. Mayor to councillor brucatil

36:10Any of the sort of what we traditionally think of as local board so g rca police library, etc

36:15We're out of scope for this particular project

36:17But it's a fair point that there might be an opportunity for collaboration or partnership there in one way or another and we could think about that

36:24But it wasn't in scope as far as this project is concerned

36:28Thank you, and I see I saw that it's not so much an advisory committee

36:31But it's in the landscape of community engagement in and if you're looking at not an advisory committee

36:37Is there a place for this that in terms of efficiency and everything else might reside elsewhere?

36:43The other this is more of a comment, um, you know, I really appreciated the distinction between technical and policy

36:49absolutely agree with that

36:52and

36:53This is more perhaps around community engagement and operational when I did the consultation with community engagement

37:00Very strongly feel that all of us as city counselors are part of that continuum of community engagement and the work that we do in the connections

37:07As connectors in the community and yet when I read the report and maybe that's part of the part too

37:13Is an even in the community engagement framework. I didn't feel recognized or that strength of us as community

37:20um

37:21Connectors in that community engagement or in this in this framework and it could be as simple as

37:27operationally when community engagement does

37:29Engagement in the community that we get a calendar of you know, they're going to be in ward for doing budget

37:35Engagement because that is part of our learning and our growth as well

37:39And you know a recent example is in ward for a budget consultation. I hear from the community questions

37:45I have no awareness absolutely none

37:47But that contributes to my mutual learning my experiential learning opportunity that wasn't discussed in here

37:54So it's it's this report talks

37:57about technical and policy, but I didn't see that extension into

38:02community engagement us as leaders us in our roles in that engagement kind of

38:07So I don't know if you can comment on that or just take that away maybe to the community engagement team

38:11But I did find that lacking in there. It was kind of very heavy in policy up to this point

38:17But that connection other than having a report

38:21Which is a report and not that

38:24Animated connection and that a ha opportunity to the community

38:31Through you mr. Mayor. I think that's something we can take away and consider

38:37Please next and then after uh, karan. I'm going to go alt and then a rork. Great. Thank you. Uh, also want to express

38:45Not just my appreciation, but my excitement about

38:48The work that's been done is a very very deep dive and that just the number the sheer number of interviews alone

38:54The data that you've gathered alone really lends a lot of credibility to this report and I think

39:00It is reflective of the broad cross sector of inputs. It's been received. I've seen I'm seeing several layers

39:07of recommendations here

39:08So my questions are just focused mostly on clarity so that I understand what the expectations and the commitments are and the commitments state

39:16statements, um that form the body of the full report are are

39:21Are really strong there and one of them commitment number

39:25Two is that um, acocs should shape the city's strategic goals

39:31We've traditionally seen that as the role of council and I recognize that advisory committees of council

39:37Obviously should should play a role there as well

39:41But there's a lot of sectors of the community that are not represented in the form of a of an advisory committee

39:47We don't have an advisory committee on

39:50seniors and we don't have an advisory committee on

39:55Youth and we don't have an advisory committee on a lot of things that are part of our strategic goal setting

40:00so just wants a little bit of clarity clarity on

40:04What what level of shaping our strategic goals? Do you see advisory committees playing?

40:11And are there gaps in what kind of advisory committees we have?

40:17that we should be adding to our

40:21advisory committees if they have an actual purpose other than straight shaping our strategic goals because I think that if we start getting into

40:30policy setting

40:32We're our acocs

40:34Are not really equipped to do that because we're we're we've got lots of gaps

40:40in the types of demographics that are represented on our advisory committees

40:45Through through you mr. Mayor to councillor corano. I'll start and then dr. LeVette can likely chime in as well

40:52We want the cities advisory committees to help shape our strategic goals. I think there's always going to be gaps

40:57I mean you could probably think of 150 important topics that could all use an advisory committee or some form of significant community engagement

41:05So there's a

41:06There's a challenge there and deciding what is the right number for the resources that we're willing to allocate

41:10I think that will continue to be a challenge. That's just sort of part of the part of the landscape

41:14I think what commitment two is trying to get at is that we want them to form a more prominent part of the city's governance architecture

41:21In those areas where they do exist

41:24And then certainly through phase two when we do the committee by committee review

41:28That would be the the right time to consider what gaps may exist

41:32What ones are simply because of resourcing that we can't support

41:35Which gaps do we want to fill all of those types of questions? I think we'll really come into focus as part of phase two of this work

41:44Through you mr. Mayor to councillor chron if I could just

41:46build on what

41:48Dylan has said

41:49you know, I think

41:51It's a it's a fair question and one of the things that we tried to do in the report

41:56Which is going to sound a little bit weasley is to not

42:00over

42:01prescribe

42:03What we see as within the purview of council? So

42:07You know, I I think that to some extent

42:11my answer to the question of what level

42:14of shaping is

42:17uh, that

42:19It you know from my opinion

42:22Thoughtfully considered

42:25deliberative conversations amongst residents

42:28Should play a very prominent role in sort of shaping the city's direction

42:33and

42:34So should councillors sort of hand in hand and so

42:38I don't think we also edited that particular word many times

42:43Right shape contribute

42:45So, you know you've good good catch

42:51And so

42:52That was the word we ended on trying to sort of say they should play a substantive role

42:58Uh, it should be more

43:01uh strategic then

43:05Instrumental or operational and

43:10And I suspect that you will learn that there are gaps

43:13And there probably are advisory committees

43:16that are

43:20Not very tightly tied to what you might think of as important strategic

43:28Commitments, but I think those will

43:31Work their way through the system and during the output during phase two of this project and the application

43:36Of the framework

43:39Okay, thank you and that that makes a lot of sense

43:41I like that answer because the inputs that we all ultimately council

43:46Votes on the strategic plan and the inputs are numerous

43:49So I like the idea of our advisory committees playing a role. I just wasn't sure how how deep you wanted that

43:56Envisioned that going my second clarity question relates to objective numbers

44:04The one about deliberative. Where's that page nine?

44:07ACRC should have developed adopt a deliberative

44:12Approach

44:13I like this because informed decision making is paramount to our expectations of our advisory committees

44:19so being able to examine policy options and alternatives and best practices from other

44:26municipalities

44:27Or across north america being able to do the education piece about

44:32The history of a policy and you know those those kind of deep dives that research

44:37Is it helps?

44:40advisory committee members to make those informed decisions and therefore that translates into advice for council

44:47My my question is that's a lot more work. That's a lot more time. That's a lot more meetings. That's a lot more prep

44:56That's a lot more staff

44:59Feeding that and and doing that research and preparing those reports for advisory committee members

45:04I'm seeing some reflection of of additional finances and resources in your final recommendations

45:11But there seems to be a

45:13To me a disconnect we should be asking for a lot more resources than what's in this report if a true

45:20robust deliberative approach

45:22Is to be embraced by our advisory committees because that's going to be a lot more work on our on our members who are

45:29volunteers

45:31Yeah, so through them the mayor to

45:34Councillor Caron. So first of all the full recommendation set of the report just to

45:40Just to start at the end of your point

45:42They would still be volunteers, but compensated volunteers whose expenses are also covered

45:48So part of this is a reflection of

45:52Of those shifting expectations

45:56And we agree that that is a significant

46:02That's a significant requirement

46:05I think that a good way to think about it is to think about the number of

46:11ACOC's that can be

46:13supported under

46:15A more robust framework. So there's not a direct

46:19um

46:21So yeah, if you were to

46:23Try to resource your existing complement of acocs

46:28Under the terms of this framework

46:31A lot more resources would be required. You're right

46:34Uh, if you support the concepts that are outlined in this framework, then

46:40this the job of city council is to

46:44Over time figure out how to align the number of acocs with their appropriate functioning

46:52so

46:53ultimately

46:55Yes, and the interim work is about how many

47:00Committees can reasonably support it

47:03Undertaking this kind of work. I mean, I guess one other thing I would just say briefly is I also think that there are

47:08degrees of

47:11Deliberative approaches so we might expect that

47:16uh committees around

47:18Certain conversations that are unfolding would need more support than under than other conversations that are unfolding

47:26Um, so, you know, I think these are kind of internal mechanics that get worked out

47:33Depending on the um, depending on the task at hand

47:37Okay

47:38And then my last sorry if I could just councillor garner, I just want I just want to add to that for a little bit of clarity

47:43I want to echo what we've heard in this room before

47:46Um, when we talk about implementations of plans or strategies like this, which is the resourcing will affect the pace

47:51So what staff have included in the budget would give us in that range of seven to ten eight to eleven advisory committees of council

47:57Operating consistently with the framework, but there would be components of the framework that wouldn't be implemented for some time

48:02We've tried to strike a balance there if there's a desire for that implementation to be

48:07Quicker than more resources would be required and we've worked to try and to try and strike the balance with that approach with what's recommended in budget

48:16Okay

48:17That's that's good. Um, because I do think that if we are to implement more acocs

48:23Which is part of the recommendation that we

48:25That we're going to need to be aware that that will involve more resourcing. So so thank you

48:32um, and then my final question had to do with

48:35The relationship between council, which I think is commitment number six

48:40I don't remember if it was one of the particular tasks of this

48:46Research work was to make recommendations on

48:50Which committees or if any committees should have a member of council

48:54Appointed to the committee and I know legislatively some we do have counselors that have to report or have to be appointed to certain

49:02boards

49:04And I think we appointed counselor downer to heritage wealth this year because of the volume of of work in that liaison

49:12relationship

49:13Um, there aren't any specific recommendations in here on that matter

49:18Uh, whether we should continue that practice of having zero counselors on acocs or somewhere

49:24It's appropriate somewhere. It's not appropriate. Are you recommending that that just be again something that is

49:29Situational for temporary periods of time or is it something that um, we're just not going to it's just not in this report for a reason

49:38Uh through the mayor to counselor crown. Um, I

49:43I can't find the page number uh

49:45right now, but

49:47We did ask this question and um

49:50And we haven't turned it into an explicit recommendation, but the text of the report

49:55indicates that everybody we spoke to

49:58Uh, didn't everybody we spoke to supported not appointing counselors to committees

50:06Okay, okay. That's good. I did I did read that the question was asked in the in the data collection

50:12But didn't see a corresponding

50:14recommendation, so

50:16Um, that's great. Um, I think those was all of my questions

50:23Thanks very much

50:24Yeah, no my comments are that it's timely and we asked for this

50:28Um, this is valuable information. It's uh,

50:32It actually validates a lot of what we've heard uh in the last couple of years as we've struggled with making our aco acocs

50:40More effective in our role as counsel

50:43Um, so I'm really really pleased with the outcome of the report. Thank you

50:48Oh one other thing there was one recommendation that I'm I'm kind of

50:53Still on I'm supporting the recommendations. There was the one about

50:58Um, the targeted retention of the targeted strategy

51:02And I understand it's just a recommendation to have staff go out and do more work

51:07And bring a recommendation back to counsel

51:09But I just wondered are there other similar sized municipalities who are always already using this strategy?

51:16um

51:17And is that going to be

51:19Part of what you're doing when you go back out and do this work if we direct you to do it

51:24Will you be doing best best practices? What are you going to bring back to us? Is what I'm asking is if we

51:30We give you direction to do this?

51:32investigation

51:34What's the what's the anticipated goal here and what's the?

51:39What's the work you're going to be doing? Thank you through you mr. Mayor so talking about representative random sampling

51:45As a significant opportunity for us to continue to increase the diversity and reach of our recruitments for boards and committees

51:53The reason we are asking

51:55For direction to report back is that that system is not currently being used by any

52:00Comparator municipalities or generally being used by municipal governments for ongoing

52:05Our ongoing recruitments like we're proposing so the time would absolutely be used as a best practice review

52:10It's used at the federal level. It's used at the provincial level

52:13It's to give us time to think about how it might be implemented in gualph on an ongoing basis

52:18And at at what level of resourcing would be required to support it as well

52:22So we anticipate bringing that bringing that type of information back

52:25Okay, that description of the scope of the work is really helpful. Thanks

52:31Alton then the roark

52:33Thank you very much. Yeah, mayor guthrie

52:35um

52:36And actually I want to thank my colleagues for

52:38Actually framing many of the questions that I had which is going to reduce much of what I'm going to ask

52:44With regards to the committee. Thank you very much for the presentation and the transparency

52:49I appreciate virtually everything that you've said and identifying that within this framework. We're dealing with first things first

52:56and

52:58The last part of my comment before I get to the questions is clearly

53:01municipal democracy is alive and well in guelph

53:06And that's truly appreciated at a time when we seem to be seeing a reduction of that in many places

53:12The first question that I have

53:15And a couple of these have come from outside from individuals who have asked if I would ask them

53:20Was there any thought uh to guelph lab?

53:24considering reorienting committees from the

53:28the departments

53:29In which they get support right now to other departments and that comes from people concerned about heritage who think heritage should be more

53:37Properly connected to culture and recreation rather than planning

53:43Through through you mr. Mayor. I think during the phase two review of this project where we go committee by committee

53:49That would be part of that consideration. Yeah, probably most of my questions are uh phase two

53:56Reporting structure to council is that phase two?

54:00Through you mr. Mayor. There are portions of that that are in phase one if you have questions

54:06No, that's it. You've

54:08Go ahead

54:09No, no, that's it

54:10So when it comes to reporting to council most of that is contained within the framework as part of phase one

54:14Obviously, it's not the actual reporting of committees that will come later and last question then is actually one that

54:20Uh might make work for the audit committee as well

54:23Do we have any appraisal of the staff time dedicated to various committees?

54:28And is that something that is worthwhile to consider as we go through that? I'm not putting a price on democracy

54:34I just think it is important for us to understand that there are staff that are devoted to these endeavors

54:41Through you mr. Mayor. We don't have any comprehensive tracking right now of the staff time required to support committees

54:46But it's something we can consider and take away. Thank you very much and thanks again for the presentation

54:52And uh councillor aurorak on the phone, please and then after that that kate

54:58Thank you. Mayor guther. Can you hear me? Okay

55:01Yeah, you're coming through great wonderful. Okay, so I loved participating in this research study

55:07And it's such a complex question in terms of how do you maximize the use of the acoc?

55:14and not

55:15You know create a parallel consultation process and how do you not create a parallel governance process?

55:20So I just think the question is endlessly fascinating and I have a long

55:25thought about

55:26Are we are really maximizing the contribution of these really?

55:31wonderful and talented people on our acoc so I'm really it's it's why I'm joining you in sort of less than optimal circumstances today

55:38um, I wanted to say that I share councillor Caron's question around

55:43the um

55:45commitment to

55:46Which says the the acoc should should shape the city's strategic goals

55:53And so I'm wondering and I understand that's the staff report and it's the slide

55:58But do we need to amend it so it says to help shape the city's strategic goals?

56:03Because an acoc will have one particular line of sight

56:07Whereas council has to have the overall

56:12Total vision it's like the old story about people are blindfolded and they feel one part of the elephant

56:17so I'm wondering

56:19Whether that commitment to should be help shape the city's strategic goals

56:24Which is also more online in the language in the framework that says acoc should help shape the policy agenda

56:31Rather than respond to it. So I like the proactive piece, but I also think the responsibility for ultimately shaping

56:38um

56:39The city's strategic goals really sits with council

56:44Through you mr. Mayor to councillor arc

56:47We'd have no concern with an amendment to add the word help and a commitment number two acoc should help shape the city's strategic goals

56:55So it's through me. I got three. Do we need an amendment for that because I saw it in the slides and I saw it in the

57:01staff report

57:02I don't have my uh my iPad died. So I've got two phones

57:06um

57:08Do we need an amendment? Is that one of the resolutions?

57:12Yeah, um, maybe I can jump in and through you mayor got through councillor arc and and the rest of council

57:17Commitment two in the in the acoc framework report does sort of allude to I think some of what you're speaking of councillor arc

57:24It talks about um, you know, it says and I quote accordingly acoc should help shape the policy agenda rather than respond to it. So

57:32I I mean, I think we're amenable to an amendment, but I don't they don't know that it's it's absolutely required

57:37Really what we're talking about is placing

57:40acocs

57:42And I this is only my analogy, but further upstream

57:46You know higher in the quote-unquote policy pyramid so that they're involved at the stage of helping inform strategic direction

57:52Ultimately to councillor Caron's comments and yours

57:55Council is the one that's going to ultimately adopt a strategic plan. This is really again about acocs playing a role in helping shape some of that

58:03um that that strategy

58:06Right, so through you mayor got three. I just think if we

58:10And again, I don't have the resolutions in front of me. So perhaps somebody who does have have them

58:15Do we need to add that word help shape because it is a contribution to right?

58:20But ultimately it's council that's going to make that decision

58:24So I would prefer a help shape than a they shape

58:27Because they have a particular line of sight an important one an upstream policy input perspective

58:34Um, but I think it's important for governance documents to be clear about where the bug stops

58:43Um, perhaps they could just have a conversation with you between now at the end of the month whether that's required or not

58:48Would that be suitable?

58:51um, yeah, just i'm just jumping in for you. It's cam uh the

58:55There's some heads nodding in the room. I don't know if you can see that or anything. So

58:59um that is it is a good takeaway a councillor Klassen

59:03Seems to also be shaking her head here to say that she agrees with that wording change as well

59:08So maybe you and councillor Klassen could work with staff and then figure out maybe an amendment for the end of the month on that

59:15There's some staff and others in the room shaking their head with that but back over to you councillor work

59:20Great. Um, thank you margothry

59:24um

59:25I just had a question around the role of the acoc chairs

59:30Um, and their setting of agendas. I'm curious to know

59:34To what extent is this happening now?

59:37and then

59:39What are the controls in place to make sure?

59:42that the

59:43Chair of an acoc would be following sort of the work set out by the city as opposed to having a committee that went rogue for example

59:54Through you miss margothr councillor work

59:56Um, councillor work. I just want to clarify the question. Are you talking about like the chair's ability to review or add items to agendas specifically?

1:00:03Uh, yeah, so in the short framework it says work with the acoc chair to set agendas

1:00:10and i'm curious to know

1:00:12To what degree does that happen now?

1:00:15All right, how much is there collaboration on the setting of those agendas?

1:00:19And then in future so i'm trying to see is the chair driving the agendas of the acoc meetings

1:00:26Or our city staff driving the agendas

1:00:29Um, i'm just curious about how that works

1:00:33Thank you. Thank you very much councillor work for clarifying that

1:00:36The answer is it does happen to a large degree now. There's a collaborative relationship between staff liaisons and chairs when it comes to

1:00:43agenda setting

1:00:44staff

1:00:45Generally drive a large portion of the agenda based on the terms of reference and we see chairs adding items

1:00:52Relatively seldom and when they are added they would need to be consistent with the committee's terms of reference the mandate set by council in order to be added

1:00:59But that work does happen now at most of our advisory committees

1:01:02Okay, great. Thank you

1:01:06I'm curious to ask our researchers what

1:01:10finding surprised them the most

1:01:21Through you mr. Mayor councillor work. We're all looking at each other. Just give us a sec

1:01:36Through you mr. Man, maybe i'll add all add my thoughts in

1:01:39I think the piece in here that we haven't actually talked that much about but which is the most exciting piece is that representative random sampling

1:01:46so that's maybe

1:01:47A piece that's really you know a few years down the road

1:01:50But I think that's the new and exciting element in here where we'd be doing something new something novel

1:01:56To try and generate diversity in our committees that we don't see other municipalities doing or a level of diversity

1:02:01They're not able to reach that's not something I expected coming out of this

1:02:05Um, and I think that has the impact potentially over the next number of years to be to be a game changer for us

1:02:16If I can through you mr. Mayor one thing that surprised me and it's actually not

1:02:21It's not a particular thing that anyone said it's it's what a group of people did so

1:02:25The fact we were a little unsure whether people would want to give up

1:02:30Three Saturdays and a Monday night

1:02:33To come and spend a whole day with us

1:02:36And eight members existing members of advisory committee committees did that we were unsure if

1:02:43A group of residents asked sort of asked randomly who had come to one of our events would would be interested and willing to give up

1:02:50their two Thursday nights

1:02:52And they were and they did and they read the things and they read the long versions and the short versions so

1:02:58I would say, uh, you know, uh

1:03:01A hope it was hoped for but a definitely a pleasant surprise about the the level of investment and commitment that uh that people are willing to

1:03:08to to give to this project

1:03:13And maybe I'll just add uh one

1:03:16Thought for me, which is that I was expecting there to be

1:03:20more um

1:03:23Uh, I was I was expecting there to be more debate about the extent to which people thought that we should be

1:03:30compensating and covering the expenses for advisory committee members and

1:03:36Everybody from every group of interview participants and throughout all of our discussions

1:03:43endorses

1:03:45That as a recognition of

1:03:47important resident contribution that was a widely held

1:03:51Uh, not every single person we spoke to but it was not limited to a single group of participants

1:03:58There were participants across all of the groups who were

1:04:03There there was actually very little resistance to that idea

1:04:11Okay, I think that

1:04:13Councillor work, I'll turn it back over to you. That was sort of the answers to your surprise question. Okay terrific and um

1:04:20In my last question is um

1:04:27I'm trying to understand it's going to be in the application and I know nobody knows how this is applied

1:04:34The advisory committees will spend a lot more time around some of these issues right coming up with recommendations and whatnot and arguably have potentially a greater

1:04:44role shaping policy

1:04:47than counselors potentially

1:04:49and so

1:04:50How do we balance out

1:04:52the ultimate responsibility of that

1:04:55and um and

1:04:59Yeah, that's that's the question. How do we balance out the ultimate responsibility for shaping public policy because often something comes to us

1:05:06Really at the end you can vote it up or down. You can nibble around the edges

1:05:10We don't have a formal policy input process along the way. So I'm just wondering from a political science point of view

1:05:17um

1:05:19Or and really to counsel Bustel's question earlier on when do the counselors have an earlier policy making role?

1:05:28Or do we

1:05:35So uh through you mr. Mayor to uh counselor arourk

1:05:42um

1:05:44So let me just try and say a couple of different things. I mean first of all

1:05:49I think

1:05:51This you know the report and this work doesn't deal with the

1:05:56some of the big picture complexities that you're raising around

1:06:00You know part-time councils who?

1:06:03um, who are you know who are served by staff teams, which I'm sure you're all um aware of

1:06:09uh, but

1:06:11It the report certainly doesn't

1:06:16uh mean to imply that

1:06:20Uh, I mean the only an advisory council is only created

1:06:25with through the authority of council and

1:06:29Any recommendation unless authority is delegated by council to an advisory committee is only ever finally decided to council

1:06:38so

1:06:41On on the one hand, I I mean I generally appreciate the point that it can be very difficult to

1:06:47Change the direction of the ship at the end

1:06:51uh, and also

1:06:53um

1:06:55I think that the ship gets set sail

1:06:58by council to begin with um, so

1:07:02it's probably not a totally satisfactory answer but

1:07:08I

1:07:10think but I think it's an interesting ongoing

1:07:14question for municipalities to grapple with

1:07:21That's okay. No, I really appreciate that. So I just want to thank

1:07:25Everybody's on an a coc and thank the team of researchers

1:07:29And I think it's a really excellent governance conversation that we're having. I appreciate you for

1:07:34For creating the report for bringing us this conversation into our quicks for leading the charge on that

1:07:41Great. Thanks, uh councillor and our last is councillor kate

1:07:45Thank you through you chair

1:07:47I was just wondering I had a couple questions, but first why is there a pause needed on recruitment for committee members during the implementation?

1:07:58Through you, uh, mr. Mayor to councillor caton

1:08:00It's mostly to make sure that we're being genuine with the public when we're doing recruitment and asking someone to serve on

1:08:06Committee a that has the following mandate

1:08:08If we do that at a time where we're reviewing the mandate of that committee and three four months after recruitment

1:08:13We're actually going forward to council and saying this committee should be changed pretty fundamentally in the following ways

1:08:19It doesn't feel like a genuine way to manage the relationships with the volunteers that we have serving on these committees

1:08:24The other one to be honest with you is resourcing wise to make sure that we can complete phase two

1:08:28Of this project with the existing staff that we have

1:08:31Recruitments are energy intensive and if you're doing recruitment for committees that may change substantially

1:08:35We didn't feel that those resources were well placed in that way

1:08:40Great. Thank you so much. Um, I also have a question a couple questions actually about the

1:08:46Staff member that is being proposed that we hired

1:08:49Um, is the board and committee member only needed for the first year of the implementation the 2025 or is the

1:08:57For that to be an ongoing support position

1:09:00Through you mr. Mayor to councillor caton

1:09:01That would be a permanent position to enable clerks office staff to attend and provide legislative support at all advisory committee meetings

1:09:08Which are from a legal perspective

1:09:10Meetings of local boards that have to follow the same

1:09:12Transpill it transparency and accountability requirements that city council does so this would enable city clerks office to

1:09:18Play that role as well as manage things like honorarium reimbursements training, etc

1:09:25Through the mayor so this person would be a part of the clerk staff

1:09:30Through you mr. Mayor the position contemplated in the multi-year budget is a member of the legislative services team in the city clerk's office

1:09:37okay

1:09:38And through the mayor does this rule include advocacy for the aos or a ceo c's or is it like are they

1:09:45Literally support for them or are they kind of the go between between them and staff members?

1:09:51and

1:09:51Would this replace the other existing staff supports that happen at the meetings

1:09:57That are specific to the departments or is this in addition to?

1:10:02Through you mr. Mayor this would be in addition in addition to those departmental staff supports

1:10:06um

1:10:07The way that a board and committee coordinator would support an advisory committee of council is very similar to the way that the city clerk

1:10:13Would support a meeting of city council so absolutely we're there to support the committee the chair also the staff liaisons

1:10:19Who are attending to provide procedural support or otherwise?

1:10:22Whatever we can do to help meetings run as efficiently effectively as smoothly as possible

1:10:27Great, thank you so much that clarifies everything and I also just wanted to thank everybody

1:10:32I had had a lot of fun in my interview

1:10:34um as a

1:10:35past a coc member so

1:10:38I really appreciated all of the work that went into this report

1:10:41And all of the work that the folks who are volunteering our time on the aos cocs currently are doing. Thanks

1:10:49Just a quick follow-up with uh councillor busotil

1:10:52Yes, thank you. I said one question, but now I've got two after councillor katens

1:10:56Um, can you tell me where the community engagement team resides? Is that part of the clerk's office?

1:11:02You know we talk about a greater role the advisory committee is having a greater role in governance the governance architecture

1:11:08I'm just curious if you can answer that and then I have a another question

1:11:13Through you mr. Mayor the community engagement team is not in the city clerk's office

1:11:16But of course we don't work in silos and we work closely with them when it relates to advisory committees or any other community engagement work

1:11:23Thank you. My last question is can you tell me do we currently have a compensation framework?

1:11:28For any of the advisory committees, whether it's legislative is if it in regulation or anything like that

1:11:35Through you mr. Mayor the only committee receiving that type of compensation right now is the committee of adjustment

1:11:42Great. Thank you

1:11:43Okay, I just have a few questions then and then we'll we'll wrap it up

1:11:47um, can you just uh, maybe to you dylan uh

1:11:51The way this is being presented in the multi-year budget is sort of incremental

1:11:57It in the multi-year budget because I haven't seen it all yet in the multi-year budget. Does it have the

1:12:03like the quantum about what

1:12:06How much it is over every single year versus how much it would be all up front

1:12:12Through you mr. Mayor, um, I hope I'll answer that question correctly. It's it's one staff position beginning in 2025

1:12:19Would be a permanent position

1:12:22Okay, but what about all the funding that's starting to do the work for next year?

1:12:27Is there anything that's involved in that there is no additional funding or no net new funding being requested for 2024

1:12:35Okay, so in relation to councillor Caron's questions though about like, uh

1:12:40Like how much of that review around the new framework would happen to the number of committees that are struck

1:12:47Are you get are you able to get them all accomplished then?

1:12:53Through you mr. Mayor, I'm not sure could you I'm not sure I understand that question. Yeah, let me try to rephrase

1:12:59Of all the reviews of the new framework. Are you could it be able to accomplish all of those committee structures?

1:13:04All the new framework moving it all to the new framework next year

1:13:08in one year

1:13:12Uh through you mr. Mayor, I don't actually think that

1:13:16The the way we imagine phase two is is not that anything would move anywhere next year. It is that by

1:13:23q4

1:13:25At the end of 2024 we would be able to bring forward a recommendation about how

1:13:31Everything should move

1:13:33Okay, just a one quick little rephrase we're saying the same thing. I think what I'm trying to make sure is that

1:13:38Over all of next year all the reviewing will be done for all

1:13:43There's not like there's not like a carryover. You're going to accomplish it all next year. That's correct. Each committee will be reviewed in 2024

1:13:51Okay, perfect

1:13:54I was just wondering

1:13:57I think one of the best things that's happened

1:14:00I mean from a hybrid perspective is that I often find myself now before a council meeting

1:14:07Like going back and listening

1:14:09Or watching some of the advisory committees where there's audio or there's video so that I get that perspective before I come into the council meeting

1:14:19I'm really sorry to ask this because maybe it's already happening. But is that is that link?

1:14:24To the committee which is in our council reports

1:14:27So let's say we have like a heritage report that's in front of us is embedded in that council heritage report

1:14:33The link to the minutes or to the video so that people don't have to go looking for it

1:14:39Is that already a practice best practice that we're doing now or is that something we could

1:14:44Do to move forward on

1:14:46Through you mr. Mayor, I think you'll see that in some reports right now

1:14:49And indeed the committees that the clerk's office is able to support

1:14:52Are posting minutes videos that are bookmarked in e-scribe and that kind of thing

1:14:56We would be able to do that more regularly as we work through the implementation of this framework

1:15:01Okay, so maybe just a takeaway like from a standardization point of view

1:15:05I know I would really appreciate if embedded in our council reports is the hey, here's the link to that meeting

1:15:13Whenever about this subject

1:15:15It's just so easy instead of me having to go into you know into all the open folders of the website

1:15:20Try to find the video and whatnot. So if it's something that's standardized

1:15:25I don't think it would only help us but the public too that here's the council report and here's the links to

1:15:30Right to that committee right where that discussion took place. Sorry. You wanted to say something to the clerk

1:15:35I was just going to add mr. Mayor and through you to the rest of council for their benefit as well

1:15:38Notwithstanding the stamp the notion of standardization, which I think is merited there is

1:15:43There's also the reality that each each committee each issue that a committee deals with

1:15:48You know requires different levels of reporting back through to council. So there's times for example when

1:15:53Staff reports to council that have involved acoc engagement. We may take verbatim the recommendations from the committee verbatim

1:16:01A text or a transcript of what was shared so that it's abundantly clear for council

1:16:06You know, here's the fulsome advice that you're receiving from staff from acocs how it aligns with your strategies, etc

1:16:12So yes standardization will occur, but we'll also still continue to do some of those

1:16:17You know above and beyond components as well. Okay. I think where I'm trying to get out to the clerk

1:16:23to everybody here is

1:16:25um

1:16:26You know, maybe I just have no life because I just listen to committee meetings all the time stuff like that

1:16:31but like I actually

1:16:32I actually do that and I like to hear the conversation

1:16:35I like to hear the debate and the discussions and the questions and the answers

1:16:38Just to understand the context before even the recommendation that was approved at the committee level

1:16:44So again, if you can if you can try to link to to those things and it's embedded in our reports that standardization

1:16:51I think would help that's a takeaway, but I would appreciate I see lots of heads not in here. So

1:16:58Another question I had was so I want to just concentrate on number six. So I'm going to page 11 of the longer report

1:17:09So it talks about effective communication between

1:17:12The acocs members and city council

1:17:16I guess I just wanted to know in your research. Did anything come up around the independence?

1:17:23Separate of influence

1:17:25That happens between council and the committees

1:17:29Because I I I've had some concerns in the past where there seems to be

1:17:37a lot of dialogue happening between members

1:17:42and council as policy or as recommendations are being discussed debated

1:17:48My concern is, you know chairs maybe putting things on as as an agenda item. Where are they flowing from?

1:17:56And so I'm concerned about that the line of independence versus influence

1:18:02And I just wondered did that come up?

1:18:04In any of your research at all

1:18:22to you, Mr. Mayor, we not we're we're all here roll a dexing transcripts through our heads

1:18:29and

1:18:31Certainly not in a way that was prominent means it's not it's possible that somebody said something at some point about that

1:18:42But it certainly wasn't a dominant theme that emerged from the data

1:18:47Maybe I will just quickly say though

1:18:51That it it came up in sort of in

1:18:55tangential ways for instance

1:18:57one of the reasons that we heard from some people about their preferences for

1:19:02for maintaining the city's practice of not appointing

1:19:07counselors to acoc members

1:19:09sort of took up some of these concerns as among the reasons that they

1:19:15favored this separation

1:19:17And another way that it came up was through some of our interviews with staff members who pointed out that sometimes

1:19:25for instance a reason for delegating authority to an acoc has to do with

1:19:31sort of removing the

1:19:35Removing the the possibility of political interference

1:19:39From sort of some of those decisions as they're unfolding which

1:19:43suggests that there is

1:19:45at least

1:19:46conceptually a certain perceived amount of independence of

1:19:49acocs from

1:19:51City council and then the last thing I will say is that the reason we we spent a lot of time thinking about

1:19:58the order of of and timing of the evaluation process

1:20:03And one of the reasons that we didn't

1:20:06recommend

1:20:09reporting

1:20:11That we didn't recommend

1:20:13acocs reporting to the outgoing council in the final months of their

1:20:19appointment had to do with fear that that would create a politically untenable

1:20:25situation right where acocs were being

1:20:29disbanded or created at the end of a council's term

1:20:34Without sort of future councils involvements so

1:20:38Nobody who so it sort of came up in different kinds of ways

1:20:43And and does get considered in different places in the report

1:20:48Okay, thank you. Yeah, I think I think

1:20:52Some of the examples you gave I would agree with as well

1:20:55But nice to know that it didn't come up as a theme. So I appreciate you saying that

1:21:00Um

1:21:02Yeah, I just got from a commenting point of view on that

1:21:06Uh, you know, some of the new counselors might not know this and this happened

1:21:11Just happened. I think I'm yeah, I think when I was a counselor

1:21:14You know, there was a sitting counselor at the time that actually got into a little bit of a tiff

1:21:20I could call it that with attending like a committee of adjustment meeting and giving some opinions and uh

1:21:27There was actually some recommendations that came out of a integrity commissioner report that

1:21:32just the just the power and balance when a counselor walks in the room

1:21:36to a committee and um

1:21:39There there can be some influence undue influence by by accident just just walking in the room

1:21:45Um that that influence is is not appropriate

1:21:48So I say that because um, I think it's important

1:21:52I'm just going to say this for myself

1:21:54That the independence of these committees free from influence from me

1:21:59About what I want to see what I want to hear what that should be happening before

1:22:06recommendations are done by committees. I think is very important

1:22:09I think after a recommendation is is done by committees and it's flowing to council

1:22:14There can be some interaction about because there's a finished defined recommendation that's coming out of committee

1:22:20But prior to that I would just say for myself

1:22:23I try to make sure that I'm not influencing things because I'm seeing

1:22:28I've been concerned about that as we continue to move forward. So I just want to say that out loud

1:22:34um, and then the last uh thing was actually about the no council members piece that so I wrote that down and you brought

1:22:41You just brought it up. Um, so where are we leaving it kind of everything as a status quo as is as we transition over this next year into phase two

1:22:50Yes, I've seen that so

1:22:52Um, right now it's still up to council. We have councillor downer sitting on on a heritage, but that's it

1:22:59But we should probably look forward. I would imagine after phase two that we look at

1:23:06That that practice would probably be a recommendation. I would imagine coming forward. Yes, I see recommend. Yeah

1:23:13Yeah, yeah, and it aligns with the two-year midmark anyways. Yeah

1:23:17Okay, and is that a best practice that you've seen as well other than just what was recommended by you

1:23:23What was researched by you?

1:23:25What was it seemed to be a unanimous sort of decision by all involved in this project?

1:23:29Is that something that you saw elsewhere too?

1:23:35Okay, um, I'm going to answer part of this and then hand it over to my colleague. So first of all just to clarify that

1:23:42Right, so our recommendation will be that count

1:23:45Will that councillors not be appointed to advisory committees? I think we will

1:23:51Uh, there may be sort of a caveat where

1:23:55We're in a situation that council makes a decision as they have with councillor downer in this

1:24:00situation for a particular set of reasons within your purview to do so

1:24:05So I just wanted to clarify

1:24:07that point

1:24:08in

1:24:09in terms of

1:24:12In terms of practices in other municipalities, it's variable

1:24:17When you might know the numbers off the top of our head better than I do

1:24:21But I just want to clarify that it's actually really difficult to answer the question from a best practice perspective

1:24:27There's a lot of practice out there and like we say

1:24:32really not a lot of

1:24:34assessment about

1:24:36The efficacy of that practice. So I would just encourage you to sort of exercise caution in any kind of comparisons

1:24:43Because a lot of those are just here's what we think we should do as opposed to

1:24:48Here's what we think is the most promising

1:24:51Way to do it for a particular set of reasons. Yeah, okay. Thank you

1:24:56You know, this is just my last comment then because I have no more questions. Um, I will just say that you know

1:25:03Um, when I was a councillor

1:25:06Sitting over there where councillor Gibson sitting right now

1:25:10um, like I remember mayor farbridge at the time

1:25:13made like really good points about

1:25:16Why we actually removed a lot of the councillors off of these stand these these types of committees

1:25:21at the time

1:25:22I'm trying to remember what she said, but that's pretty sure like the dialogue was

1:25:28around

1:25:29We need to allow those seats to be open for people with the skill set that can actually

1:25:33Contribute to the topics that are being talked about and just because we're elected members of council doesn't mean we have the skill set

1:25:42To actually sit on those committees and contribute in a beneficial way

1:25:46And I remember it was pretty sure it was a

1:25:49I'm trying to go by memory. I'm pretty good on this stuff. Pretty sure it was a unanimous vote of council at that time

1:25:53To say like let's let's let's not let's not do that. Let's get let's get out of this business

1:25:59um, and so

1:26:00Yeah, I remember I remember that conversation and the reasoning why it was done there and I've always sort of adopted that

1:26:07That position from that time right up until now

1:26:09It's something that I shared with you during my my interview. I remember bringing it up

1:26:14So now everyone knows what I said

1:26:16But I think I think there's a lot of validity to

1:26:19Getting us out of the way and letting those with the skill set the lived experience the professionalism

1:26:25Be the ones there that then advise us and let us keep ourselves

1:26:30Focused in the governance role that we have here

1:26:33Um separately and and not bog ourselves down with just holding a seat, you know, uh, just

1:26:40Just because and uh anyways, that's what I remember from

1:26:4412 years ago 10 years ago whatever it was uh to to now and I think it holds true, um to this moment too, so

1:26:51Okay, well, thank you. Um, thank you to everyone involved. I don't see anyone else

1:26:57Wanting to change anything other than a conversation

1:26:59Maybe between councillor rork and councillor Klassen

1:27:01Before the end of the month, maybe with a little tweak but other than that that little tweak kind of shows how good it is

1:27:06Right if there's nothing else that comes forward. So thank you to everyone involved

1:27:10I will call the vote. Does anyone against all of these recommendations?

1:27:14Perfect, that's unanimous. Uh, it's a committee uh