City Clerk be authorized to publish and serve notice of intention to designate 2187 Gordon Street pursuant to Part IV…

3:42:27And David Kamleti, am I saying that right?

3:42:33Yes, I am, okay.

3:42:36Member of the Heritage Guelph Committee.

3:42:40Both are here in person.

3:42:43And so why don't we start with a presentation

3:42:50from Stephen.

3:42:52David, we'll then have some commentary from you.

3:42:55David, sir, you can come right up and sit right here.

3:42:58Because we, it's important to treat you

3:43:01from a committee perspective,

3:43:03sort of at the same level playing field here.

3:43:06So please come up here and sit and join us.

3:43:08Thank you.

3:43:10And then we have some delegations.

3:43:12One is gonna be by video.

3:43:15Brian Scarrett, I think many of us know Brian.

3:43:18And Mike Marcolongo has been waiting patiently in the back.

3:43:20Thank you, Mike.

3:43:22And so I'll turn it over to Stephen right now

3:43:24and we'll get through this.

3:43:26Thank you.

3:43:30Good evening.

3:43:31Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie, members of council,

3:43:35senior staff and members of the public

3:43:38that have joined us for this meeting.

3:43:41I'm the senior heritage planner at the City of Guelph.

3:43:44And this evening, my report makes recommendations

3:43:47regarding 2187 Gordon Street.

3:43:50Specifically, the Kid Barn,

3:43:53which contains an 1840s stone slot bank barn

3:43:59and the Blair Farmhouse,

3:44:00built in the early 20th century

3:44:02using formed in place concrete.

3:44:082787 Gordon Street is a large property

3:44:13that fronts onto the west side of Gordon Street,

3:44:16north of Maltby Road.

3:44:18In another slide in my presentation,

3:44:20I'll zoom in to show the two buildings

3:44:23that are the subject of this report.

3:44:26The property is adjacent to the Marcolongo Farm

3:44:30at 2162 Gordon Street,

3:44:32which you see in this image across the road to the east.

3:44:36The Marcolongo Farm is a cultural heritage landscape

3:44:39that is protected by an individual heritage designation bylaw

3:44:42under the Ontario Heritage Act.

3:44:48The Kid Barn and Blair Farmhouse

3:44:52are described as follows.

3:44:55They are listed as non-designated,

3:44:57built heritage resources

3:44:59on the City of Guelph's municipal register

3:45:01of cultural heritage properties under part four,

3:45:05section 27 of the Ontario Heritage Act.

3:45:08A property may be protected by designation

3:45:12under part four of the act

3:45:14if it meets at least two or more of the criteria

3:45:18for determining cultural heritage value or interest.

3:45:21As prescribed by Ontario Regulation 906,

3:45:26which has been amended by the Ontario Regulation 56922.

3:45:35Here is a photo of the Kid Barn taken in 2003

3:45:40for the City of Guelph Inventory of Heritage Structures,

3:45:43which has also been called the Bercher Stokes Inventory.

3:45:48It's important to know that this image predates the expansion

3:45:51of the city's heritage register in 2009

3:45:55to include all non-designated properties identified

3:45:59by the Bercher Stokes Inventory.

3:46:02The photo below was taken during a site visit

3:46:05with property standards staff on July 27th, 2023.

3:46:13These are photos taken during a site visit

3:46:15with the property owner, Madame Yehomes,

3:46:18on June 17th, 2019.

3:46:22The images show the original stone slot bank barn

3:46:26and the heavy timber bank barn addition to the east of it

3:46:30or attached to the east.

3:46:36A photo of the Blair Farmhouse also taken in 2003

3:46:39for the City of Guelph Inventory of Heritage Structures.

3:46:43Again, this is also from what was known

3:46:45as the Bercher Stokes Inventory.

3:46:48And again, this is dated 2003.

3:46:52The second photo was taken

3:46:54from outside the driveway gate of the property in 2019.

3:47:03So the gate to that property is seen just at the black line.

3:47:08The property limits on the eastern side of the property.

3:47:12And in this image, to the left of that,

3:47:15is the Blair Farmhouse, the farm laneway

3:47:19that continues into the property going past

3:47:23a wood frame shed building, leading to the kid barn,

3:47:30which essentially, as you can tell from reading the report,

3:47:33also from my comments tonight,

3:47:34it's essentially has two parts.

3:47:37The first being at the back, the earliest part,

3:47:40which would be the stone slot bank barn,

3:47:43and facing the street would be

3:47:46the timber frame bank barn addition.

3:47:54A statement of significance for the property is as follows.

3:47:59Heritage planning staff in consultation with Heritage Guelph

3:48:03prepared a cultural heritage evaluation of 2187 Gordon Street.

3:48:08The subject property is worthy of designation

3:48:10under part four, section 29 of the Ontario Heritage Act,

3:48:15because it meets six of the prescribed nine criteria

3:48:20for determining cultural heritage value or interest.

3:48:24The heritage attributes of 2187 Gordon Street

3:48:27display design, physical value,

3:48:31historical associative value, and contextual value.

3:48:40The kid barn contains an early and rare example

3:48:44of a stone slot bank barn built by 1842.

3:48:50It was constructed using local fieldstone

3:48:52with slots in the walls.

3:48:54And this is a very important point.

3:48:56This building is now the only one of its kind

3:48:59within the city of Guelph.

3:49:02It displays a high degree of craftsmanship

3:49:05that is rarely preserved.

3:49:07It's linked to the kid family

3:49:09who occupied the property from the mid to late 19th century.

3:49:13James Kidd settled in the township of Puslench in 1830

3:49:17and contributed to the agricultural community at the time.

3:49:22The barn and property is historically connected

3:49:25to the Marco Longo Farm,

3:49:27a protected cultural heritage landscape.

3:49:30And this is also important to highlight

3:49:32that the kid barn was built into the bank

3:49:37and retains its function form

3:49:41with this specific location in the landscape.

3:49:45The building is a landmark.

3:49:51The Blair Farmhouse is an early and rare example

3:49:55of a material or a construction method

3:49:57in its use of formed concrete for wall construction

3:50:01in a rural residential building.

3:50:04It too is connected to the Blair family

3:50:06and who were early settlers of the Puslench area.

3:50:11The Blair family had farms on both sides of Gordon Street

3:50:14and emigrated from Scotland in the 1870s.

3:50:17The family was well known for their extensive orchards

3:50:20on both sides of Gordon Street.

3:50:24The Blair Farmhouse is historically linked to its surroundings

3:50:28and it too is a landmark along Gordon Street.

3:50:30The position of the barn and the farmhouse

3:50:34in relation to Gordon Street

3:50:37provide a clear view of the property from the Roodway.

3:50:40The kid barn and Blair Farmhouse

3:50:42support the agricultural landscape of the surrounding area

3:50:46and the property maintains and defines

3:50:48the surrounding agricultural use

3:50:51as it was over the past two centuries.

3:51:01Okay, I've been told that sometimes hitting the button

3:51:03there's a bit of a lag the longer the meeting goes.

3:51:07So I think, okay.

3:51:10These are, this is a list.

3:51:13The following three slides are a list

3:51:16of the heritage attributes that are recommended by staff

3:51:18and also by Heritage Guelph.

3:51:21The kid barn, the portion of the kid barn

3:51:24that is the stone slot bank barn.

3:51:27Its attributes include the three door openings

3:51:29on the south or the lower wall

3:51:32and the upper door on that same south wall.

3:51:37The attributes include the original form of the bank barn

3:51:40with an end gable roof line and single story north wall

3:51:43and a two story south wall.

3:51:45The location and orientation of the stone bank barn

3:51:49is considered an attribute

3:51:52which maintains the building as being built across a slope.

3:51:57The exterior and interior of all the extant stone walls

3:52:00of the slot bank barn are attributes

3:52:03and all are attributes.

3:52:06And all original slot ventilation openings

3:52:09and window and door openings seen in the exterior

3:52:12and interior extant stone walls, the west gable wall,

3:52:16the east gable interior wall and the two story south wall.

3:52:24The heavy timber bank barn addition to the kid barn

3:52:27has heritage attributes as well.

3:52:30They would be the original form of the barn addition

3:52:32with its gable roof line and single story north wall

3:52:36and two story south wall.

3:52:39The location and orientation of the heavy timber bank barn

3:52:42in addition to maintain the building

3:52:44as being built into the slope.

3:52:47The vertically oriented exterior wood board cladding.

3:52:52The extant cutouts in vertical boards

3:52:55of the upper north and south gable walls

3:52:57that create the shape of a flurry and cross.

3:53:01The original heavy timber framing members,

3:53:04including pole rafters, hand-hewn posts and beams

3:53:07and original joinery.

3:53:09The tape pointed stone wall exterior of the lower level

3:53:13and finally the imbrication or pattern

3:53:16created by pressed metal sheets cladding the roof.

3:53:22The heritage attributes of the Blair farmhouse

3:53:25are the original two story form of the house

3:53:28with a hip roof and an L plan

3:53:30and the exterior walls constructed

3:53:32of formed in place concrete covered with a render

3:53:36that is incised with a pattern that mimics ashlar stone.

3:53:44The recommendation from staff and Heritage Guelph

3:53:47is that city council give its notice of intention

3:53:50to designate 2187 Gordon Street

3:53:53because it meets six of the prescribed criteria

3:53:56for determining cultural heritage value or interest

3:53:59in a quartering with Ontario regulation 906

3:54:02as amended under the Ontario Heritage Act.

3:54:06Therefore the property merits individual heritage designation

3:54:10under the Ontario Heritage Act.

3:54:13This concludes my presentation

3:54:15and I would be happy to answer any questions

3:54:18that you may have about the cultural heritage value

3:54:20of the James Kidd barn, its heavy timber addition

3:54:26or the Blair farmhouse at 2187 Gordon Street.

3:54:30Thank you.

3:54:32Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

3:54:34I think that we're gonna go to Mr. Camilletti

3:54:37and then the delegates and then we'll do questions.

3:54:40Okay, awesome, thank you.

3:54:42Mr. Camilletti, if you'd like to come to the podium, thanks.

3:54:51On behalf of the chair of Heritage Guelph,

3:54:54Sarah App, who could not make it today,

3:54:57I just wanted to give you a very short overview

3:54:59as to the importance that Heritage Guelph attributed

3:55:03to the decision and the recommendations

3:55:05that are in front of you.

3:55:07We focused on the narrow issue

3:55:09of what are the heritage attributes

3:55:12for designation of this property

3:55:14and do these meet the criteria for designation.

3:55:18This was an unusual deliberation

3:55:21because it took approximately an hour of our time,

3:55:24which is usually, which is double

3:55:26what we usually spend on any applications.

3:55:31And there was a very extensive questioning

3:55:35of Mr. Robinson and a delegate, Jennifer Meader,

3:55:39if he was here for the owner.

3:55:42Basically, there were probably four factors

3:55:44that caused that really swung Heritage Guelph

3:55:47into strongly making this recommendation.

3:55:50As Stephen pointed out,

3:55:53there were six criteria of the nine that were met.

3:55:57Usually it's two to four that Heritage Guelph

3:56:00will be considering.

3:56:01By my count, the kid barn had six criteria

3:56:04that were met and the player farm had five criteria.

3:56:08So that's almost double what we usually get.

3:56:12Secondly, what was important was that this property

3:56:16has been under heritage consideration since 2011

3:56:19and we're out of view after a dozen years

3:56:22and with all the attributes, now is the time.

3:56:28Similarly, the rareness of these types of properties

3:56:33pushed us to make that decision.

3:56:37I think there's only two stone farmhouses

3:56:39in Wellington County.

3:56:40There's one on the way to Elora,

3:56:42the other one being one of these.

3:56:44And finally, although not binding on anyone,

3:56:50the barn has been identified in a council approved plan

3:56:55as a site to preserve in the Claremont B plan,

3:56:58although that's currently under investigation.

3:57:00The fact that council has already made one of these,

3:57:04one part of the property,

3:57:06a heritage protected property was important.

3:57:12So for all those reasons,

3:57:13heritage wealth was very strongly

3:57:15behind recommending these as criteria for designation.

3:57:20Thank you.

3:57:22Thank you, Mr. Camilletti for your delegation

3:57:25and thanks for being with us all evening.

3:57:28I'd like to call down Mr. Marco Longo

3:57:30and that will be the last thing.

3:57:32Oh, questions.

3:57:33Oh, I'm so sorry.

3:57:34Thank you.

3:57:36Before that, let's go to questions

3:57:37and I'm looking to my council colleagues.

3:57:42Ms. Bousatou.

3:57:46Thank you, Mr. Camilletti.

3:57:52Yeah, I just had a question.

3:57:53I think you referenced that the barn,

3:57:59there are only two in Wellington County left

3:58:02and I was wondering if you have anything further reaching

3:58:06in Ontario or anything else beyond Wellington County.

3:58:10The only information that was in front of us

3:58:12was dwelling in the county

3:58:14through being one on the way to Allora.

3:58:19Some general comments were made that there's probably

3:58:23less than two dozen in the province.

3:58:28Thank you.

3:58:30Thank you.

3:58:31Anything further for questions?

3:58:33Not at this time.

3:58:34Thank you very much.

3:58:36And let's go to Brian Scarrett first

3:58:38and then, no, I think I have in my delegations,

3:58:42I do have Brian first and then Mike,

3:58:46we'll have you in the wings there.

3:58:48Brian's on video.

3:58:55Yeah.

3:58:55Hi, Brian, it's Mayor Guthrie

3:58:57and thank you for joining us.

3:58:58Do you want to just turn on your video for us?

3:59:00Ah, gotta hit the start video button.

3:59:04There we go.

3:59:05Yeah, here it comes

3:59:06because we can hear you great.

3:59:08Terrific, can you see me now?

3:59:10Yes.

3:59:11Yeah, perfect.

3:59:12You have up to five minutes

3:59:14and I'll turn the floor over to you.

3:59:16Thank you for joining us.

3:59:17Thanks very much.

3:59:18I won't use much of that five minutes.

3:59:20A number of the things I'm gonna be saying are ditto.

3:59:23My name is Brian Scarrett.

3:59:24I'm a former member of Heritage Guelph

3:59:26and I'm delegating tonight, especially because this property

3:59:29has been so long on the radar of Heritage Guelph

3:59:31and of the city.

3:59:33And I strongly support and encourage council

3:59:35to support the staff recommendation.

3:59:38I was glad to see Stephen dated the photos

3:59:40in his presentation.

3:59:42The photos he showed from June 2019

3:59:45were of a site visit that I participated in

3:59:48along with the chair of our Heritage Guelph

3:59:51designation working group, James Smith.

3:59:55And at that site visit was introduced to Alex Drung

4:00:00of Mademy Homes and a cultural heritage specialist

4:00:04named Laura Walter who worked for STAN Tech.

4:00:06I believe they had also been employed by Mademy.

4:00:11And there was no confusion about the reason

4:00:13for our site visit.

4:00:14It was an evaluation of the property's heritage potential.

4:00:20Two years after that visit,

4:00:23council received the draft Clare Maltby secondary plan

4:00:26and it said all cultural heritage resources

4:00:29within Clare Maltby identified on schedule F

4:00:32shall be considered for designation

4:00:34under part four of the Ontario Heritage Act.

4:00:37Through or prior to the development approval process

4:00:42and 2187 Gordon Street, the house and the barn individually

4:00:47were identified on schedule F.

4:00:51And as a result of the adoption

4:00:53of the Clare Maltby secondary plan,

4:00:55City of Guelph bylaw 2022-20712 schedule A states,

4:01:02the extant barns located at properties

4:01:05municipally known as 2187 Gordon Street,

4:01:091858 Gordon, 1912 Gordon and the Amos Farms ruins

4:01:13at 2007 Victoria Road South will be included

4:01:17in the cultural heritage resources considered for protection

4:01:22through part four of the Ontario Heritage Act

4:01:24as identified in the cultural heritage action plan.

4:01:29So the city and the community have been transparent

4:01:31in their interests in this property under the Heritage Act

4:01:34and tonight's proposal to designate

4:01:37should come as no surprise.

4:01:39The only surprise is that it's taken this long.

4:01:42Thanks very much.

4:01:45Thank you, Brian.

4:01:46And quick questions for Brian at all.

4:01:49No.

4:01:50Oh, yes, I'm sorry, Councillor Caron, please.

4:01:54Mr. Scarrett, since you were physically present

4:01:57at the site visit in 2019,

4:01:59I wonder if you could comment on the condition of the wall

4:02:04that is now deteriorated to the point of collapse.

4:02:07Was it identified for some property standards,

4:02:12some maintenance, some structural work,

4:02:15or was it to your naked eye,

4:02:18was it intact and structurally sound?

4:02:22The above grade wall appears to be structurally sound.

4:02:27The below grade support though was clear.

4:02:31We've got photos documenting that it had failed.

4:02:36There was a open roof above the doorway

4:02:41where clearly it was funneling water

4:02:43right into the foundation point where it was failing.

4:02:50So that was a matter of time.

4:02:52That was 2019.

4:02:53In 2021, I raised a concern with the,

4:02:59with the city that there were further problems

4:03:04that the foundation was beginning to fail.

4:03:06And I believe that property standards

4:03:08started taking action at that point.

4:03:14Great, thank you, Brian.

4:03:15Thank you for the question, Councillor.

4:03:19I think that's it, Brian.

4:03:20Thank you for sticking with us.

4:03:22Thank you very much.

4:03:23And Mike, thank you for sticking with us as well.

4:03:26Come on down.

4:03:28And you know the drill here,

4:03:29you got five minutes,

4:03:30I'll let you start whenever you want.

4:03:31Go ahead.

4:03:32Thank you.

4:03:41So good evening, Mayor and Councillors.

4:03:44My name is Mike Marco Longo.

4:03:45I live at 2162 Gordon Street,

4:03:47which is right across from 2187 Gordon Street.

4:03:51Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you tonight.

4:03:54As you know, development is a journey

4:03:55and often learned a long journey.

4:03:57And I'm here today to discuss with you

4:04:00the heritage designation decision.

4:04:05It's an important milestone in the journey of this property.

4:04:092187 Gordon Street is a property

4:04:10with I think two important stories and narratives.

4:04:13The first one that you've heard from our heritage planner,

4:04:17as well as David Camilletti,

4:04:18is that it's a story of unique heritage assets.

4:04:22Among them, the Kid Barn.

4:04:25It's the only stone barn or slit barn here in the city.

4:04:29Very representative of our agricultural history.

4:04:33It's also a marker or gateway building

4:04:35as you come into the city of Guelph from the south.

4:04:38The second story is one of sidestepping.

4:04:422187 Gordon Street is a property owned by a developer

4:04:47who's been sidestepping the city over and over.

4:04:53Allow me to elaborate.

4:04:55Two weeks after this property was bought by Mademy Holmes,

4:05:00they proceeded to sidestep our own or your own tree bylaw

4:05:07as well as the site alteration bylaw.

4:05:10And you may remember the controversy at the time.

4:05:13It resulted in this developer being fined $25,000.

4:05:17Now this is North America's largest home builder.

4:05:20There's no reason to sidestep cities tree bylaws

4:05:24and site alteration bylaws.

4:05:27In June of 2019, as Brian Scarrett just mentioned,

4:05:31the foundation on the North wall

4:05:33was showing signs of deterioration and collapse.

4:05:37And Mademy Holmes decided to do nothing about it.

4:05:40By February of 2021, a major collapse occurred.

4:05:44And my understanding is that the city of Guelph

4:05:46did issue a work order under the property standards bylaw.

4:05:52Again, nothing was done.

4:05:54The sidestepping continued.

4:05:57Finally, this past summer,

4:05:59the wall above the already collapsed North wall

4:06:02of this barn entirely collapsed.

4:06:06Now Mademy Holmes, as you have seen

4:06:09in your correspondence,

4:06:12is balking at the price tag of repairing the storm barn

4:06:17and is asking for a deferral on the designation.

4:06:20The sidestepping continues.

4:06:24Now to be honest, even if the billing gets designated,

4:06:27I'm not sure it can be saved.

4:06:29We've got a developer who doesn't appreciate the need

4:06:32to steward this property.

4:06:34And development of the site is likely 10

4:06:37or more years down the road.

4:06:39This property is in phase two

4:06:41of the Claire Maltby Secondary Plan,

4:06:42which is currently being appealed

4:06:44at the Ontario Lands Tribunal.

4:06:48I'm here to call Council tonight to designate this property

4:06:52for its heritage value interest.

4:06:54And I'm also asking you Council

4:06:55to send a strong endorsement of this designation motion

4:07:00to communicate to Mademy that Guelph,

4:07:02we don't erase our history,

4:07:03we layer it for future builds.

4:07:06Guelph has some fantastic examples

4:07:07of reusing agricultural buildings.

4:07:09We've got the alumni house on campus at the university,

4:07:12which was the former sheep barn.

4:07:14We have the Gurman Ward's granary on Farcourt Street.

4:07:20I would encourage Council to move forward

4:07:21with the designation while also empowering staff

4:07:24to continue working with the developer,

4:07:26showcasing our adaptive reuse in the city,

4:07:30as well as other examples.

4:07:33This could include workshopping, adaptive reuse,

4:07:38examples and so on.

4:07:40The journey for the development

4:07:41of 2187 Goran Street will continue.

4:07:44The designation vote tonight is important

4:07:46because it will communicate to Mademy homes

4:07:49that we layer our heritage

4:07:51and in order to respect and recognize our past.

4:07:54Thanks for your time.

4:07:57Thank you Mike and again,

4:07:58thank you for sticking with us.

4:08:00I got Alton and Karan please.

4:08:03Thank you very much Mayor Guthrie.

4:08:04And through you too, Mr. Marco Longo,

4:08:07I'm gonna try to encapsulate this in one question.

4:08:11You made the statement that you're not sure

4:08:12the building can be saved

4:08:14and therefore not being devil's advocate,

4:08:17being very sincere.

4:08:18What's the value of designation?

4:08:20The other part of the question is you made reference

4:08:22to adaptive reuse.

4:08:24I was wondering if you could go into more detail

4:08:26on that please.

4:08:27Through you Mayor to Councillor Allt.

4:08:30So there's two questions there.

4:08:31The first is around will the designation ensure

4:08:36that the building is protected?

4:08:38Unfortunately not.

4:08:39If the owner decides that it's not important

4:08:42does not abide by the city's work orders.

4:08:48The building deteriorates to the point

4:08:50where it becomes a human health risk or safety risk.

4:08:56There could be a push come to shove situation

4:08:59where the building could get demolished.

4:09:02I think that the importance of the designation

4:09:05as a municipality, as a community,

4:09:07we're saying to the developer, you're from out of town,

4:09:09maybe you don't understand the culture here.

4:09:12This is important to us.

4:09:14It was listed when you bought the property.

4:09:16It was mentioned throughout the Claire Mulpey secondary plan

4:09:19and prioritized as an important asset,

4:09:22culture heritage asset through the Claire Mulpey secondary plan.

4:09:25We have tried to work with you.

4:09:26You don't seem to understand how important it is.

4:09:29Our council, our elected leaders are saying tonight

4:09:33it is important, we will reinforce that message to you.

4:09:39What about adaptive reuse?

4:09:42So our city has a history of adaptive reuse

4:09:44and we were blessed with at least two architects

4:09:47called Karl Brutenski as well as Carlos Venton

4:09:50who worked with the county

4:09:51on numerous adaptive reuse strategies and buildings.

4:09:55And that tradition and that history continues.

4:09:58And there's no reason for Maddie Holmes

4:10:00not to work with the assets and layer the assets

4:10:06as they move forward with development.

4:10:10Thank you.

4:10:12And Karan, please.

4:10:14Yeah, along those same lines, Mr. Mayor,

4:10:17through the delegate, Mr. Marco Longo,

4:10:19adaptive reuse is essential for conservation

4:10:24for a building like this.

4:10:25And you've given some great examples.

4:10:27And I wanna draw on your experience

4:10:29because I'm familiar with the property

4:10:32that your family is associated with across the street.

4:10:35And you've made a decision to designate the barn

4:10:40as part of the entire property.

4:10:43And that barn does have a lot of adaptive reuse

4:10:46as I recall it's used for public meetings, weddings,

4:10:49all kinds of events and activities.

4:10:53And it has been very well maintained.

4:10:55So I wonder if you could talk about maintaining a building

4:11:01like this.

4:11:02We're hearing that it's prohibitive

4:11:05for the developer to repair it.

4:11:09And the developer sees no future use.

4:11:11So I wonder if you could just talk about

4:11:15the practicality of maintaining a barn.

4:11:21Sure, I'd love to speak about that.

4:11:22So the barn at 2162 Gordon Street

4:11:25is designated under the Inter-Heroge Act.

4:11:28It is currently being used,

4:11:30I would argue as an intermuse,

4:11:32that the current uses of weddings or events

4:11:35and so on parties.

4:11:38It's very much an intermuse as well as storage.

4:11:45The foundation that owns the property

4:11:46and my family, we spend some money

4:11:49but it's an ounce of prevention is worth a pound for cure.

4:11:55Is that the saying or am I getting it wrong?

4:11:58Anyway, we spend a little bit of money

4:12:00and you save a lot in the long term.

4:12:03So this past summer, a new roof went on the barn.

4:12:05The largest, most detrimental aspect

4:12:10to these buildings is water.

4:12:12And the simplest thing that Manami could have done in 2019,

4:12:18when there was that hole in the roof on the western side

4:12:24and then storm barn is they could have not replaced the roof

4:12:27but just cover that part of the roof.

4:12:30When water gets into these buildings,

4:12:32the freeze law cycle is a powerful element.

4:12:36And so now instead of looking at $4,000,

4:12:41they're looking at, they claim $400,000 to repair that wall.

4:12:45So it doesn't take much to maintain these buildings

4:12:49to mothball them,

4:12:52but you need to be willing to do that

4:12:55and you need to be diligent.

4:12:57And it helps if you have an occupied property.

4:13:01In my conversations with Manami Homes,

4:13:04there's an empty farmhouse

4:13:07that's been unoccupied since January of 2019.

4:13:11And I reached out to them and I said,

4:13:14you know, I managed some rental properties.

4:13:16I'd be willing to manage this property.

4:13:18We're in a housing crisis.

4:13:19I didn't say that to them,

4:13:20we are in a housing crisis, you know this.

4:13:22There could have been a family living there for five years.

4:13:25That did not happen.

4:13:27They politely refused my offer.

4:13:32You might have recognized these signs right here.

4:13:35If you drive by, I posted the property.

4:13:40The developer did not, right?

4:13:44I call the police about every three or four months

4:13:48to ask them to vacate the property of people breaking in.

4:13:55You have to be a willing partner in conservation,

4:13:59in caring, and unfortunately,

4:14:03we've got someone who keeps side stepping the process

4:14:06and our heritage.

4:14:11Thanks, Mr. Marko-Long.

4:14:12I really appreciate your perspective as both a neighbor

4:14:15and as a heritage designated

4:14:19maintainer of a heritage property.

4:14:21My second question relates to,

4:14:26actually, I think you already answered it

4:14:28in your previous answer, so thanks.

4:14:30I think I'm good.

4:14:31Thanks.

4:14:34Great, Mike again, thank you very much

4:14:35for sticking with us.

4:14:36Thank you.

4:14:38Okay, so that's it everybody.

4:14:40There is a recommendation.

4:14:42There's two that the city,

4:14:43Kirkby authorized a publish and serve notice

4:14:46of the intention to designate

4:14:472187 Gordon Street pursuant to part four,

4:14:51section 29 of the Ontario Heritage Act,

4:14:54and that the designation bylaw be brought forward

4:14:57for council for approval if no objections are received

4:15:00within the 30 day objection period.

4:15:03I see a hand waving to my left here to move it.

4:15:06You okay with that, Councillor Downer?

4:15:08I see a hand moving to my right here to second it.

4:15:10Okay, thank you, Councillor Klassen.

4:15:13Is there any questions on this at all?

4:15:18You know what, I'm gonna stick with my process today.

4:15:20If you got a question,

4:15:21any if you have a comment, do it at the same time, okay?

4:15:25Gibson, then Caron.

4:15:29Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

4:15:31I'll get to everyone, Gibson and Caron first, yeah.

4:15:34Thanks to staff for the presentation.

4:15:38Regrettably, I think I wish I had not known

4:15:40the broader context on this file.

4:15:42I think the attributes of the building speak for themselves,

4:15:44and I think the report from council or from staff

4:15:47really speaks for itself.

4:15:48I was convinced after reading the report.

4:15:51I won't lie to you, I felt at times very uncomfortable

4:15:55listening to the denigration of the property owner

4:15:58for the last five to 10 minutes.

4:15:59I didn't feel like that was appropriate or necessary

4:16:02for a decision-making body.

4:16:04So I'm happy to stand on the staff's recommendation.

4:16:07I felt like the attributes presented to us met the test,

4:16:11and this is cultural valued.

4:16:15So all the context aside of what's been presented,

4:16:19which in my mind was unfortunate information

4:16:23that I didn't need to make my decision,

4:16:25but I'm happy to support the designation.

4:16:28Thank you.

4:16:30Thank you.

4:16:31Just so everyone knows, I have a, Caron is next,

4:16:34and then I have Downer, Kwas and Pusatil Al-Rourke.

4:16:37Okay.

4:16:41Question for staff on the property standards issues.

4:16:47I've got to phrase this.

4:16:51I've got to phrase this properly.

4:16:52797 Victoria was a property standards

4:16:57longstanding deterioration.

4:17:01We did inspections after that came down,

4:17:04and there was a lot of emotion about having to demolish

4:17:08a structure that was on our radar.

4:17:12And we went out and I sent a list of staff

4:17:15on property standards, inspections were done.

4:17:18Great.

4:17:18Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

4:17:19Did a follow-up committed to being more diligent

4:17:24on properties where demolition by neglect was in process.

4:17:32We issued orders on this property,

4:17:33and the owner I know appealed, failed to comply,

4:17:37reordered, failed to comply, appealed.

4:17:39This is a cycle.

4:17:42So my question is, what's the next step?

4:17:47Is it a fine?

4:17:48Is it a court challenge?

4:17:53What power do we have as a municipality

4:17:56to enforce these orders?

4:17:58Because I know when, if someone has garbage on their front lawn

4:18:01or fails to cut the grass, and we order them,

4:18:04they don't comply.

4:18:05We order them, they don't comply.

4:18:06I know there's a process, 60 days, 90 days.

4:18:09We go in and we cut the grass.

4:18:12Can we go in and do the repair?

4:18:14I want to know what our power is and what our authority is in here

4:18:17to affect the property standards.

4:18:20Because if the owner chooses to ignore the order,

4:18:26and has made it very clear they're not interested

4:18:30in designation or adaptive reuse,

4:18:33what authority do we have to go in and do the work?

4:18:40So I'm going to let this question stand,

4:18:43because I feel it's valid for some information and context.

4:18:48But I also just want to remind everyone that we are here to talk

4:18:50about a designation of a building.

4:18:52So some of this is valid, but also I think offline

4:18:56as questions to ask as well.

4:18:58I see some staff nodding their heads.

4:19:00I want this question to stand though.

4:19:02I think it's a valid context,

4:19:04but I just don't want to continue to bring up the complete history

4:19:08when we're here to decide a designation.

4:19:11I think that's fair.

4:19:12But go ahead to staff to answer Councillor Caron's question, please.

4:19:15Thank you.

4:19:17I'm going to Councillor Caron.

4:19:21At this point I can say that there is an order on the property.

4:19:24There is a fine associated with that order.

4:19:26It's written right on the order.

4:19:29It is under appeal.

4:19:30So that's where we're at with the property standards.

4:19:33They have appealed that order.

4:19:36So that will take its own course.

4:19:39And at this point, that I don't before you is certainly

4:19:43the heritage designation, which obviously staff support moving forward with.

4:19:50I recall in some somewhere in Ontario,

4:19:53there are building fell victim to demolition by neglect

4:19:57and a property owner was ordered to rebuild it.

4:20:01It is that maybe I maybe I can take that line of questioning offline.

4:20:05I just point of order on the discussion.

4:20:08I just I just I worried about we're in a we're in a legal process

4:20:11with the developer on the property standards issues.

4:20:14So I'm just feeling a little uncomfortable about I withdrew the question before the point of order.

4:20:21Yeah, you did.

4:20:22Councillor Caron.

4:20:23Yeah, you and your partner in Ward five are on the same wavelength.

4:20:27So that I'll take it out.

4:20:28You basically you basically tied in doing that.

4:20:30So that was that was all done, not being in the same.

4:20:32It's not often I'm called on a point of order by my wordmate,

4:20:35but I knew I knew the minute she I knew the minute I asked the question.

4:20:40It needed to be withdrawn.

4:20:41I'll take that offline.

4:20:43So just for comments, this is a no brainer.

4:20:45Yeah, like councillor Gibson, the I agree that the report stands for itself and it's either

4:20:51meets the criteria it doesn't it clearly does.

4:20:54And I think we have we have to move forward on strong heritage policies.

4:21:00One of the other reasons why I feel strongly we have to we have to set an example here is that

4:21:05when we annexed this land from the township of Puslench,

4:21:09we made a commitment and moral commitment to our neighbors that their heritage,

4:21:15their cultural heritage would be protected as we moved southward in development.

4:21:22And and I feel that we have an obligation to meet that commitment.

4:21:25So this one's a no brainer happy to support.

4:21:30Thank you, Councillor Downer.

4:21:33I'll just be brief.

4:21:34I'll just say ditto to what we've heard heritage golf is, you know,

4:21:39made your position clear.

4:21:40It's definitely worthy of designation.

4:21:43Thank you, Councillor Cossin.

4:21:46I have a ditto as well for one of the questions I had.

4:21:49And then I do have a short question, which is through you, Mr. Mayor to staff,

4:21:55from a planning perspective with the designations in place,

4:22:00can the developer still develop the site around those heritage buildings?

4:22:13Yeah, through to the mayor to the Councillor.

4:22:15So yes, is that I guess is the really short answer.

4:22:19It's part of the clear, multi secondary plan.

4:22:21The next phase from secondary planning once it goes through the old process,

4:22:27is that into zoning and detail design and we're not there yet.

4:22:32So it's early on in those stages.

4:22:37Okay, thank you.

4:22:39Just one very short comment.

4:22:41The reason I asked that question is because sometimes I think we have discussions,

4:22:45you know, in the public that can seem that heritage is actually preventative

4:22:49to development.

4:22:51But I think that actually in tonight was a good example earlier this evening.

4:22:54We approved a site plan for a heritage building that was integrated into a new build.

4:23:00And I think that, you know, heritage can be integrated into new developments.

4:23:05There's nothing stopping.

4:23:06We heard it, you know, tonight we approved something else tonight.

4:23:09And so I just, I wanted to ask that question because there still can be something done on

4:23:13this site while preserving our history and honoring what came before us.

4:23:18So thank you.

4:23:19Thank you.

4:23:21Bustitilde and O'Rourke.

4:23:23Thank you.

4:23:23I have a lot of dittos as well.

4:23:25Thank you to my colleagues, friends asking those questions,

4:23:28but I did want to make a comment and this is something that I said when we were talking

4:23:32about the culture plan.

4:23:34And you know, I'm European, Italy and Malta and deep history everywhere around us.

4:23:40And if I had a choice of where to put resources, I would retain history and culture rather than

4:23:46spend resources and trying to manufacture.

4:23:49As someone who's traveled a lot, people always ask, tell me a story about where you're from.

4:23:54And I really miss the buildings.

4:23:56And as I said, you know, you go to an old tower and it's a pizza place.

4:24:01It's not something new.

4:24:04So I will be very much supporting this and I really want to see this go forward.

4:24:10Thank you.

4:24:12O'Rourke, then also.

4:24:14Thank you, Mayor Gretzry.

4:24:15Further to Councillor Klassen's comments and also Mr. Marco Longos.

4:24:19The south end actually has a lot of farmhouses that have been protected and that are really

4:24:26lovely in neighborhoods.

4:24:27So you're you're on a regular street and all of a sudden you're on Getty's and there's a

4:24:31spectacular stone farmhouse just at the top of that hill.

4:24:34I mean, it's lovely, right?

4:24:35There is a farmhouse on Victoria Road that the red brick faces the road and you see it was,

4:24:43you know, that was the original house.

4:24:44And then there's town homes that are built adjacent.

4:24:47I'm thinking of Bard.

4:24:48I'm thinking of the farmhouse on Crawley that we protected.

4:24:53We heard tonight about the reeds protecting the farmhouse on Claire Road.

4:24:58So this is not a new thing.

4:24:59The Marco Longo family has a beautiful preservation of a pre-confederation barn.

4:25:04These are markers of history that are integrated in neighborhoods throughout the south end.

4:25:09So I know we think Gordon Street, but get off Gordon Street and get into the neighborhoods

4:25:13and you will find some really lovely preservation.

4:25:16And in fact, Terror View is converting Hart's farmhouse as a neighborhood amenity that will

4:25:21be spectacular.

4:25:23So it could become a real advantage to whatever development takes place around it.

4:25:28So I fully endorse the recommendation.

4:25:32Thank you.

4:25:33Alt please.

4:25:34Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

4:25:36Like those before me, I fully endorse the recommendation.

4:25:40I appreciate Councillor Kloss in raising the points that she raised.

4:25:44I think that they're very important.

4:25:45I reflect on 331 Claire Road as being a good example that someone just texted to me of adaptive reuse.

4:25:53And I think that this is important for us.

4:25:56I think I should also remind us that these buildings, these structures,

4:26:00were built by someone's grandmother or grandfather or their non-binary

4:26:06ancestor.

4:26:07And this is our heritage.

4:26:09I also think about Councillor Busuttil standing up very strongly

4:26:13with regards to what's happening with the Mitchell farm.

4:26:16It's a great example of heritage lost.

4:26:18And if we can't do anything else for the future, at least let us try to preserve the past so that

4:26:23we have those memories and we have that common heritage.

4:26:28Thank you.

4:26:28And Chu.

4:26:30Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

4:26:31I'll keep it brief.

4:26:34Yeah, I just want to say ditto to everything that's been said.

4:26:38I just, I guess just a comment and question that I could take offline.

4:26:44Like I obviously don't know the history of this property and the relationship between the developer

4:26:50and our staff, but I'm just wondering, is there a way, I know we're under OLT, but is there a way,

4:26:56moving forward, we can provide a better educational outlet to help facilitate discussion on how that

4:27:06these amazing heritage facets can be preserved on our site.

4:27:11You know, as a student myself, of planning myself, like I think this is a great place making feature.

4:27:18I also am cognizant of the fact that our developers have their pro formas and their

4:27:24expectations on what they ought to do on their private property.

4:27:29So I think just as a closer, we all definitely love heritage, but at the same time, we want to find

4:27:35pockets of opportunity for fruitful engagement.

4:27:39So I'm just curious as to how can we move forward.

4:27:42And I think that's maybe a conversation I have with you guys down the road.

4:27:47Thank you.

4:27:48Okay.

4:27:50Thank you.

4:27:51Is there anything further at all?

4:27:54No.

4:27:54Okay.

4:27:54I'm going to call the vote on these two motions.

4:27:56Is there anyone against?

4:28:00Okay.

4:28:00That's unanimous.

4:28:00Thank you very much.