Stormwater Management Master Plan be approved and that staff be directed to file a Municipal Class Environmental Assessment Notice of Completion. That the financial implications from…

11:42So we will move the stormwater management master plan to after the presentation on water services annual report and summary report as we have staff will be presenting on that one.

11:52So, I'm leaving on consent, the water and wastewater servicing master plan. Do I have a mover?

12:03Councillor O'Rourke. Councillor Boussitil seconds that. Any opposed?

12:10So that passes unanimously to staff. Just because it passes on consent doesn't mean we don't recognize the massive body of work that it is.

12:18And also the critical importance to climate change mitigation and to ensure that as our community grows, we can grow in a green way.

12:28So that's the key to that work on community resiliency.

12:32Okay, we are going then to item 8.1, water services annual report and summary report with a presentation by our general manager of environmental services, Nectar Tamca Kapoulos.

12:46You'll have to brief me on that, sorry.

12:49Also our manager of water services, Wayne Gallagher and supervisor compliance and performance, Kristen Pressie.

12:56And as critical as elected members have a duty of care on the safety and security of our water services. Over to you gentlemen.

13:05Thank you very much, Chair O'Rourke and hello Mayor Guthrie and members of council. My name is Nectar Tamca Kapoulos, and I am the general manager of environmental services.

13:15I am responsible for overseeing the operation and reporting related to your drinking water system operating authority.

13:22Wealth water services of which you own and are responsible for under the province's statutory standard of care.

13:29Ontario Ministry of the environment conservation and parks provides a guide for members of municipal councils titled taking care of your drinking water.

13:39Our presentation today will familiarize you with the drinking water system and your role and responsibility as system owners.

13:47A link to the guide for members of municipal councils has been provided with a presentation for direct access.

13:54It is my pleasure to invite Wayne Gallagher, division manager of water services and Heather Yates, acting manager of compliance and performance both within environmental services department to the podium to present to you the various elements of the drinking water system and your role and responsibility as municipal councillors.

14:13Great. Thank you very much Nectar and good morning and welcome once again to members of council on behalf of water services.

14:27We're pleased to be here today and to share with you information on your standard of care over the provision of water as a municipal councillor and we have lots of information to cover.

14:36We recognize that you are busy and we are constrained today. We've designed today's presentation for 20 minutes.

14:43With this condensed version of care, you know some training may have taken as much as four hours in the past through providers such as the Walker and clean water center.

14:53To that end should members of council be interested to learn more or interested to participate in this session later in the year. I'd welcome you to contact Jane Nectar myself and we'd be pleased to coordinate that for you.

15:05To respect your time and to allow us to complete the presentation we'd ask that you kindly hold your presentations till the end.

15:12Should we run at a time and there still be questions of council. We'd like to capture those and get them get back to you in writing in the short term.

15:28Alright, well let's get started. In looking to the perils of improper management of municipal drinking water systems we unfortunately don't have to look too far outside of our borders for an example.

15:38In May of 2000 the town of Walkerton, Ontario experienced an Ecole outbreak, which led to the death of seven people and second thousands.

15:47This led to the Walkerton inquiry, which was led by Justice O'Connor with outcomes of the process continuing to reform and enhance water legislation and management standards in the province of Ontario and across North America.

15:59The recommendation specific of specific pertinence to counsel from Justice O'Connor's inquiry with respect to standard of care is quoted on this slide which I'll read aloud.

16:10Given that the safety of drinking water is essential for public health, those who discharge the oversight responsibilities of the municipality should be held to a statutory standard of care.

16:20This is one of many of the important recommendations that came out of the Walkerton inquiry reports in 2002.

16:28And the other direct recommendations will discuss later in this presentation.

16:33So what is the standard of care? Under the Safe Drinking Water Act as a municipal official you must practice due diligence to protect public health when making decisions that could affect the drinking water system.

16:47Severe penalties are possible for municipal officials who fail to act in good faith and do not exercise honesty, competence and integrity to ensure the protection and safety of users of the municipal drinking water system.

17:01To support municipal councillors and as spoken to in Nectar's introduction, the province of Ontario has developed a guide for municipal councils titled Taking Care of Your Water.

17:11Our presentation today will familiarize you with the drinking water system and your roles and responsibilities as owners.

17:18And as we come to slide 11, as a takeaway there is a link to that actual guide for your reference.

17:24As a municipal councillor with decision making authority for your community is important that you fulfill your duty to ensure safe drinking water.

17:37As alluded to on the previous slide, there are legal consequences to failing to carry out this duty, including monetary fines and imprisonment.

17:44As municipal councillors, how do you best ensure that you're making decisions to uphold your standard of care?

17:55Step one is being informed. We understand that many members of council do not have a technically applied experience in the Ontario municipal water industry.

18:03It is great if you do, but under the Safe Drinking Water Act that is not your requirement or role under which you'd be seen as the owner and be looking for for the strategic direction related to our system.

18:14Guelph Water Services staff, as your approved operator, have intimate knowledge of your drinking water system and its operations and seek to provide you with information as the owner to ensure that you are informed of operational protocols and operational exceptions where applicable,

18:28potential risks to our drinking water system and steps taken to manage such risks and recommendations for capital renewal system improvement to ensure consistency with the terms of the Safe Drinking Water Act and other legislation.

18:41Beyond our internal expertise, we also rely on the use of professional engineers, hydrogeologists, toxicologists and other industry professionals, as well as interface with the Ministry of the Environment, Climate Change and Parks, Ministry of Health and Public Health Unit to conduct our works.

18:59The presence of this expertise from within the Ontario industry and local agencies helps to validate and bolster the works that we provide to you as the owner.

19:08In looking to local agencies and our regulator, you will find mention of such consultations and products provided to you as the owner with the intent of giving you confidence that consultation has been completed and endorsed by these important partners and stakeholders.

19:22Should you have questions or concerns, I'd invite you once again to contact me as the representative of Water Services. You'll find that Water Services staff takes great pride in their work, possesses great expertise and is very passionate about speaking of our water resources locally.

19:37Step two is important that you stay vigilant. The fact that something has not happened in the recent past does not mean it may not pose a risk in the future.

19:52As in any field of work, assuming actions are taking place can lead to a very critical outcomes in the absence of communication and monitoring. In the context of the Walkerton tragedy, the absence of such due diligence led to constraints, to needed resources to maintain the system in a fit state of repair, the lack of sufficient staff resources and staff level competencies to operate the drinking water system and other oversights which led to the death of seven individuals.

20:19With the health of the public and your community at stake, your continued diligence is paramount through your role as owner.

20:25The Safe Drinking Water Act provides a legislative framework for all municipal drinking water systems. The Act provides a consistent set of province-wide standards and rules to ensure access to safe, high quality and reliable drinking water.

20:44It recognizes that the people of Ontario are entitled to expect their drinking water to be safe. It provides for protection of human health and prevents drinking water health hazards through the control and regulation of drinking water systems and drinking water testing.

20:59In a municipal context, the drinking water system includes all collection and treatment and storage facilities along with distribution pipes up to the private property lines of our customers.

21:10Section 11 of the Safe Drinking Water Act describes the legal responsibilities of owners and operating authorities of regulated drinking water systems.

21:19Pardon me. Under the Act, owner and operating authorities are responsible for providing water that meets all prescribed drinking water standards, operating in accordance with the Act and its regulation,

21:31ensuring the drinking water system is in a fit state of repair, appropriately staffed and supervised by qualified persons.

21:39Complying with all sampling, testing, monitoring, and meeting all reporting requirements.

21:45Some examples of actions that are required of owners and operating authorities under Section 11 of the Safe Drinking Water Act include sampling and testing of drinking water, using an accredited laboratory to analyze the samples,

22:02reporting the adverse results that exceed any standards in the Ontario Drinking Water Quality Standards regulation, obtaining a municipal drinking water license, which includes a financial plan,

22:13ensuring the drinking water system is operated by an accredited operating authority, which water services is,

22:19hiring certified operators to operate the system, and preparing an annual report to inform the public.

22:26Section 19 of the Safe Drinking Water Act, pardon me, extends legal responsibility to people with decision making authority over the municipal drinking water system, and those who oversee the accredited operating authority for the system.

22:42Given the seriousness of this duty to our community, those actions fall under the standard of care, failed to protect the public, and cause human harm, could face significant penalties, fines, and imprisonment.

22:57Here, most recent, you must exercise the level of care, diligent and skill with regards to municipal drinking water systems that a reasonably prudent person would, would be expected to exercise in a similar circumstance.

23:11This includes acting honestly, prominently, and with integrity.

23:15The circumstances of your actions, which you did or didn't do, what questions you asked, what steps you'd taken to address identified risks or problems with your drinking water system, will all be important in determining whether you met your standard of care,

23:30and if you should be held responsible if something goes wrong.

23:33When decisions come before council, relating to drinking water, you want to understand the impacts to the community and public health.

23:48While each situation will be different, listed are some examples of preliminary questions that you may ask.

23:55Again, these are coming from the taking care of your water guide for municipal counselors, which will provide some more background in leading to response to these questions.

24:05As part of the drinking water quality management system, water services required to develop a quantity policy that drives the quality management system.

24:20This policy documents water services commitments to demonstrate that quality management is important to our management and operation of the drinking water system.

24:29Our water quality policy states that water services at the City of Guelph is committed to providing customers with a safe, consistent supply of high quality drinking water, while meeting or exceeding and continuing approving upon legal, operational, and quality management system requirements.

24:45Water services delivers your water with dedication, professionalism, and care.

24:53Ontario has a comprehensive safety net to safeguard its drinking water from source to tap. It is a multifaceted approach that helps prevent contamination, detects and solves water quality problems, enforces law and regulations, and increases people's awareness of the importance of safe, high quality drinking water.

25:12As you can see on this diagram, the safety net includes a source to tap focus, a strong legislative and regulatory framework, regulated health-based standards for drinking water, regular and reliable testing, swift, strong action on adverse water quality incidents,

25:30mandatory licensing, operator certification and training requirements, a multifaceted compliance, improvement toolkit, partnership, transparency, and public engagement.

25:43Drinking water treatment can be complex and an expensive process. The level of treatment required depends on the potential health threats that are in raw water, untreated water, looking at harmful bacteria or chemical contamination.

26:03In Guelph, we are fortunate to have high quality groundwater that requires disinfection only.

26:09Water treatment operators certified by the province are specifically trained to ensure and document the effective treatment and distribution of water in the city, looking at chlorine testing, biological, and chemical sampling.

26:23The drinking water system is the infrastructure that conveys drinking water from our treatment plants to residents and business. These include water mains, valves, and water towers.

26:39Distribution systems have to accomplish many things simultaneously to provide sufficient quantity and quality. Design must meet the demand of today, demands of peak seasons, take into consideration emergency firefighting, and accommodate for future growth.

26:55It must be secure through positive pressurization so that nothing can enter the distribution system, potentially compromising the potability of the water.

27:04Lastly, it must be regularly maintained and renewed when necessary to ensure that the required quantity and quality is always present.

27:12Now pass off the presentation to Heather Yates, Acting Manager of Compliance and Performance.

27:17The Ministry of the Environment Conservation and Parks or MECP conducts a thorough drinking water system audit every year as required through Regulation 170.

27:35The audit is a cooperative exercise between the ministry and the city with a shared goal of a strong, reliable, resilient drinking water system built on a protected water supply, professionally designed and operated drinking water system, and documentation that demonstrates that this integrity is maintained from source to tap.

27:54The city recently received our audit report for 2022. I'm pleased to say that no risks were identified to the drinking water system.

28:06Every year, water services prepares an annual report and a summary report as required under the Safe Drinking Water Act.

28:13The report is released to council at the end of February and posted publicly that would have been distributed to you. Today's report formalizes that in Council minutes.

28:22Included in these reports is information regarding your drinking water system, including a description of the drinking water system and chemicals used, summary of the results of required testing and any adverse test results,

28:35a description of any corrective actions and measures taken to correct failures, description of major expenses to install, repair and replace required equipment,

28:46information about any requirements that were not met under the Safe Drinking Water Act, and a comparison of the water systems flow rates from previous years to help assess existing and planned water use.

28:57In order for water services to be the operating authority of the Guelph drinking water system, we are required to hold a municipal drinking water license.

29:08This license must be renewed every five years. Our license is set for renewal in July of 2024. It's an exciting time.

29:16There are five components that must be in place for the license. They are a drinking water per drinking pardon me, a drinking water works permit, permit or permits to take water, an operational plan, the operating authority must be accredited, and a financial plan.

29:37The first item is the drinking water works permit. This provides a description of the overall water system, including treatment, storage and distribution, and will also, when applied for, include an authority to alter system in a specified way.

29:53A permit to take water from the province is required for any water takings in Ontario that exceed more than 50,000 litres a day.

30:02The purpose of the permit to take water program or PTTW is to ensure that conservation protection and wise use in management of the water in the province is also to safeguard the province's water supply and is protected for all users.

30:17As such detailed information is requested about each application for water taking.

30:23As such permits are controlled, they are not issued if the taking of water would adversely affect existing users or the environment.

30:31In Guelph, we have 18 permits to take water for our drinking water supply.

30:36Each permit has different requirements, including pumping rates and monitoring of the environment and the surrounding area.

30:42Item number three is an operational plan. This plan is prepared in accordance with the drinking water quality management standard or DWQMS and is required under the Safe Drinking Water Act.

31:00This plan documents water services quality management system.

31:04In order to fulfill the requirements of the municipal drinking water license, the operational plan must be endorsed by council.

31:11You can look forward to receiving this updated operational plan when it will be brought to you in June.

31:16In order for water services to become an accredited operating authority, we must be accredited to the DWQMS, which falls under the Safe Drinking Water Act.

31:29This is done by a comprehensive audit and review of the operational plan, the city's programs and the processes by an independent certified accreditation body that is appointed by the province.

31:41Water services completed this audit in November and is accredited to the DWQMS version 2.0.

31:49Through our 2022 audit, the external auditor noted the city's strong commitment to the drinking water quality management standard.

31:56It was noted that we were noted for our culture of continual improvement, leadership, assessment processes, internal audit processes, emergency management and the overall competencies and dedication of the staff at water services and support divisions.

32:12The final requirement of your municipal drinking water license is a long range financial plan as defined under Ontario regulation 453.

32:28As your operator representative, water services, wastewater services, compliance and performance and finance staff are currently working to finalize the water and wastewater long range financial plan, which would be brought before you in fall of 2023.

32:48When looking to the required operation and renewal of the drinking water system and protection of public health, the requirement for sustainable water financing is imperative.

32:57Municipal counselors play an important role in the approval and provision of required financial resources.

33:03To that end, the long range financial plan comes to consolidate for council the anticipated future revenues and known cost drivers, such as asset lifecycle renewal and increases to utilities.

33:15This is to understand anticipated future financial needs in sustaining the water system and level of service for customers.

33:22Aging infrastructure is a major challenge facing municipalities across Ontario today.

33:33Machinery equipment and structures used to provide safe drinking water must be in place maintained and improved when necessary.

33:42As the operating authority the city must annually review the drinking water infrastructure, provide a summary of the programs in place to maintain, rehabilitate and review the infrastructure and monitor the effectiveness of its maintenance program.

33:55This is normally accomplished through and aligned with the timing of the budget process.

34:04Ontario's drinking water quality management standards define the need to conduct an annually review risk assessments associated with the drinking water system.

34:12The requirements to manage or mitigate risks are largely contingent on resource needs of the system operator.

34:18Budgetary resourcing will be put before council from the system operator to address system risks largely addressed through capital budget and that of annual operating needs.

34:29As part of our requirement as your operating authority, we are required to maintain an up to date emergency response plan, which defines how and when you, council and owner will be notified of an emergency situation.

34:48It also defines the roles of separate stakeholders internal and external when working together to address a situation.

34:55Water services emergency response plan was developed through consultation with corporate emergency management and undergoes regular mock practice exercises.

35:05These exercises include other corporate teams such as engineering and transportation services and external agencies to ensure staff at all levels have the knowledge and practice to react to emergencies appropriately.

35:17As part of our emergency management framework, wealth water services is also a member of on warn the Ontario water and wastewater agency response network.

35:30This province wide network facilitates utility to utility supports in time of need.

35:36Through this network, the city may request the use of certified operators or borrow needed equipment from neighboring municipalities should our resources be fully consumed, impacted or depleted as part of emergency response.

35:48Conversely, we may call upon, we may be called upon for such support or resources from other member municipalities should they face similar challenges.

35:57On that note, that brings us to the end of today's presentation. On behalf of water services and the support division of compliance performance. I thank you for your attention and participation in today's training.

36:10I will turn it over now to Wayne Gallagher to answer any questions you may have of the team.

36:17I'll start a list. I've got councillor all this wall.

36:21Thank you very much through you, Madam chair to Mr Gallagher staff.

36:27I was just looking at the permits to take water and I started doing the math on those. And I'm presuming that we are taking significantly more than 900,000 liters or, or

36:41997 imperial gallons each day. So the permit started 50,000. What is our actual water consumption?

36:53Through you, Madam chair to counselor alt.

36:57Average day demand.

37:00Non peak season is in the order of about 48 million liters of water per day. That would equal all of the.

37:08Essential takings of and demand of industry and residents within our city.

37:13Thank you. So that's about 10 million imperial gallons. The other question that I got and appreciate the presentation beyond the 18 permits.

37:23Are there permits for industrial use that are held by private drawers of water? Or is that everything for the city?

37:33Through you, Madam chair to counselor alt that number represented only the permits under the ownership and management of the city of wealth beyond that there would be a.

37:42Significant number of permits in the community looking to industry households certainly as we step outside of the borders of the city of wealth.

37:50All the homes would be reliant on both septic and well as we look at those surrounding our community as well.

37:57And the last question, I'm not certain that you even are able to give me this. Are we aware of exactly what the total water consumption is for the city, which would include industrial and food based uses or not.

38:11Through you, Madam chair to counselor alt.

38:15We could certainly speak to all demand coming from city wells supplied to the public.

38:22As we get to larger permits of more significance, there would be reporting requirements that come along with those as well, which we could glean.

38:30However, as we come to, you know, smaller permits that may exist on a household level, we'd be challenged to define the actual amount of demand in those cases.

38:40But we basically have a ballpark. That's that's really all that I needed to know. Thank you very much. That's correct. Thank you.

38:46Thank you, Councillor all council.

38:48Thank you for the presentation and through chair or continuous learning sincerely appreciated.

38:55So my understanding of testing and reporting is that it is our obligation around supplying. And I think maybe perhaps similar to counselor alts question is around the institutions, university school boards, hospitals and so on.

39:09Do they have their own permits or are we providing water? And what is the relationship around testing and reporting? Is it back to us or directly to the ministry?

39:19Through you, Madam chair to counselor boosts until

39:24Certainly as we, I guess, beyond the testing at the point of treatment that we are legislated to complete, we also have to complete representative sampling of chlorine residual and other parameters within the distribution system that feeds our various customers.

39:38Really, we do that so we can say we have again peace of mind as to the quality that's being received by customers as we come to industrial businesses within the city.

39:52Some have permits to take water that they're using both in alignment with what is the city's water taking, and then they may have an independent permit to take water for independent processes at their respective site.

40:06The city's reporting that we refer to in the presentation comes to encompass both the monitoring and lab results from both the supply as well as the distribution system where

40:20private entities may have a permit to take water, depending on what end uses that they're using that for. So again, if they were to treat that to a potable standard and look to supply a large population on their campus for lack of a better word than they would have independent sampling

40:35testing again that they would have to, you know, they'd have a registered drinking water system and they'd have similar reporting requirements to the city of Guelph in that case.

40:43Thank you.

40:45Okay.

40:47Anything further councillor Bustel.

40:49Okay.

40:51Councillor Gibson.

40:53Thanks, I didn't realize your list was that short. Perfect.

40:57Question about the water taking so we're groundwater community obviously we don't have a big pipe coming from big lake. So treatment is a little bit more enhanced or difficult.

41:07I think we have some enhanced infiltration for our groundwater drinking but what what sort of enhanced protections are in place for those slow situations.

41:17Through Madam chair to counselor Gibson.

41:21At any point where we're working to establish a new general water system, we're working to establish a new general water system.

41:27We're working to establish a new general water system, we're working to establish a new general water system, we're working to establish a new general water system for better understanding this water and what type of treatment is required.

41:41Within the city.

41:43Groundwater, you know is rather secure.

41:49Essentially, we don't see large changes in quality as we would with like a surface water treatment plan to use.

41:55large changes in quality as we would with like a surface water treatment plant at the end of the

42:00day where times of runoff or other things may mean that your source water quality is changing.

42:06With that in mind, you know, at the time of bringing those wells on site or into operation,

42:14essentially there is what's defined as the appropriate treatment for the well itself in

42:19consultation with the MECP, which is then permitted and put under our drinking water license as spoken

42:26through the presentation earlier. Beyond that, essentially there is ongoing quality testing

42:32of raw water that we're providing to the province. So both we're taking a look at this

42:36as well as the Ministry of the Environment to see again is anything changing.

42:40Even with our Goody sources and there's really a handful of them within the city,

42:44both in the Arco Spring Grounds and some wells within the urban boundary,

42:47the purity of that water is still to the point that we're talking about

42:52UV and chlorine for disinfection. We're not getting to, you know, those events like I talked

42:58to with runoff where you have to go through major sedimentation processes to really get the water

43:04to a point of clarity that we can treat it. Beyond those as well under the Clean Water Act,

43:11we would have come to the last term of council speaking to you, but our source water protection

43:14plan through that as well. We come from a planning lens to look at proposed land use

43:20activities where risks are proposed and working with those individuals to either amend designs to

43:27take that risk out of the equation or again implement risk management plans, which would

43:32have reporting requirements as well in giving us confidence that again those risks to our

43:37drinking water sources are being managed. Thank you, that's great. My last question and

43:44we can take it offline if maybe the Arco Springs, I think it's the enhanced ground

43:48water infiltration that we're doing there. Is that part of the long-term plan to provide

43:54drinking water to the city or is that something that we have targeted to phase out and go

43:58strictly to ground water? Yes, so what you're referring to is the recharge system that we have

44:04at Arkel. So we have one permit to take water for council's reference that is allowed between

44:11April and October seasonally based on the level of the Aramasa River. From that we take water

44:18from the river, bring it to an infiltration trench that becomes high quality overburden

44:24ground water that we're capturing for treatment. That continues to be a part, I guess in answer

44:29to your question, that continues to be part of our water sources into the future and we'll be looking

44:35at other options to further optimize that system as part of the water supply master plan.

44:41Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Gibson. Anybody on screen? Councillor Caton.

44:50Thank you, Chair. Through you to staff, I had a couple of questions. I was wondering,

44:58with the cost of individual water softeners, I know that hard water isn't a quality concern,

45:03but I was just thinking in terms of equity, have we ever done a study on what it costs

45:08individual houses to own their own water softeners and salt and the cost on home repairs versus

45:16if it was softened at the source? Through you, Madam Chair, to Councillor Caton,

45:30our water efficiency and environmental programing team has been involved in looking at

45:35softener alternatives and savings between choices by a homeowner at the end of the day.

45:41However, I'm not aware of us specifically looking at centralizing that softening or doing a comparison

45:49to the individual price of homeowners. I know one challenge on that side of things comes to

45:56what's referred to in the industry as disinfection byproducts. So again, if centralizing that,

46:02that we'd have to take a look at that as a cost consideration as well as there would be

46:08disposal fees with salt removed from the source. Thank you. So just along those lines.

46:18So do we know the cost of softened water to the treatment process? Like how that would,

46:25because we do use salt in the homes and how that relates to what goes through the sewers?

46:36Through you, Madam Chair, to Councillor Caton, again, we would have to take a look at that and

46:40report back to Councillor. I don't have that offhand. Thank you. Just a couple more questions

46:47through the chair of staff. I was just wondering in terms of, sorry, I know for myself personally,

46:53I have lower levels of what I react to. And I know that most toxicology levels are created based on

47:00neurotypical healthy standards. So when we do chlorination for tap water, do we do it at the

47:09base level that is required? Or is there a specific level that we're using compared to other

47:15municipalities? Through you, Madam Chair, to Councillor Caton, through the Ontario drinking

47:24water guidelines, there is definition as to the acceptable level of chlorination in a drinking

47:29water source. As part of that, local dosing is much below the maximum as defined through the act.

47:38Generally, a free chlorine dose leaving a treated city site is somewhere in the order of one PPM.

47:47And with that, that value is defined again through study of the water distribution system,

47:56looking to ensure that we're meeting the regulatory standards at the branches of the system itself.

48:01Again, there are separate approaches to chlorination in the system where someone closer to a well may

48:08see it again, just simply coming from the source where as we get into conveying water around the

48:13system, there may be reclorination at certain points where again, we have to deliver water between

48:18pressure zones by example. So again, where we're dosing to meet the requirements of legislation,

48:25we do hear understanding that there are aesthetic sensitivities that customers may have. So as

48:32that changes, may have to change seasonally due to things like the temperature of water going up

48:38and the requirement to manage that. It is something we're very conscious of and

48:46Job 1 is ensuring we're meeting the regulation, but again, the customer component of that

48:51is something that we hear and understand. Thanks. One final question on this.

48:59Through chair work to the staff. So when I was talking about sensitivities, I was

49:06talking about aesthetic sensitivities, I was talking about medical sensitivities. The look of the

49:10water is very separate from the medical effect of the water. But also I was just wondering about the

49:19how far above the minimum chlorination do we use for the city? So it will answer your question

49:30through the chair to counselor Katon. The minimum defined through regulation is 0.05 at any point

49:38milligrams of free chlorine at any point within the distribution system. At that point, however,

49:45we're getting to what is questionably the accuracy of the measurement equipment that we're using.

49:51So as an operating authority, we seek to have 0.2 or 0.2 milligrams of chlorine at the customer.

50:02As I mentioned, we come to see the high point defined through legislation, I believe as 3 ppm.

50:09We're dosing around 1 ppm at our sources with the objective of getting 0.2 milligrams

50:16at the at the branches or the end points of our drinking water system.

50:23Thanks very much. Thank you, counselor Katon and Mr. Gallagher. Any other questions on screen?

50:32Okay. Oh, counselor Karan. Sorry, I put my hand up earlier. I wasn't sure if you saw me.

50:39Mr. Gallagher, you mentioned in your presentation about potential land use on some of our water

50:45sites. And I know we've explored and talked about everything from picnic areas, trails,

50:54cross country skiing. Are those things that we decide as a municipality what are appropriate

50:59land uses based on specific site specific where's the water table? Or is that regulated by the province?

51:08Through you, Madam Chair, to counselor Karan. As we look to the Safe Drinking Water Act,

51:18it comes to define threats to the drinking water system. Again, our catchment areas and

51:24our wellhead protection areas. So as we look at those applications of land use,

51:31it's very much provincial legislation that's defining what's compatible versus not.

51:39As we come to recreational uses of city facilities, there is a requirement under the Safe Drinking

51:47Water Act that we restrict access to critical points of the drinking water system and guarding

51:53against contamination. However, provided that can be managed, there is the ability to look at

52:02separate land uses and put an appropriate management structure in place for those.

52:10Okay. And then a follow up question is who does that within our organization and at what point?

52:19I mean, we're doing our master recreation parks planning. So passive uses like trails and

52:26and very low impact if any land uses. Are we doing that as part of the parks and trails master plan,

52:36recreation master plan, or is this a water services review?

52:43Through you, Madam Chair, to counselor Karan.

52:46Largely, we would be looking to the parks process and we are speaking with park staff on an ongoing

52:52basis with regards to trails of interest continuity, things of this nature. So, you know,

53:00through that process, I think that would be the best alignment for interest in those items.

53:06Beyond that, there is a portion of the Arkles Springgrounds that has some recreational use.

53:14We have existing trail agreements with both the Hiking Club and Gorba. However, to best kind of

53:21manage the sensitive, you know, ecological components of that land, we have started a consultation

53:28with reference to future use and what can be facilitated. So that item parks is at the table,

53:35however, being led by water services as we manage that property in looking to, you know,

53:41trails throughout the city. I think again, the parks master plan would be the best place to

53:46position that input. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, Councillor Billings.

53:55It sounds like we will be doing some asbestos fiber testing and if that's correct,

54:03will that testing be ongoing in the future? Through the chair to Councillor Billings.

54:14So we have a very small component of asbestos cement pipe within our drinking water system.

54:22Two kilometers of the essential 200 or 650 kilometers of pipe that's out there.

54:29Through this, essentially, we have or will be initiating a discussion with the

54:35local health unit and the MECP with respect to testing. Really, it's more so to understand

54:42materials that are within our system. It's not, again, there is no health based standard for

54:48asbestos and that would be under the event of a break where, again, asbestos would go from being,

54:54you know, lodged within the cement itself to becoming free. So this is non-pressurized pipe

55:01that, again, is used to collect some high occurring groundwater. With that, it's our intent to start

55:09with a smaller sampling program and based on what we're seeing, if there's a need to continue or not.

55:16Again, this is nor not anticipating challenges here and this is really something we're doing

55:21out of responsible management of the system. Okay, so then through you, Madam Chair, so you'll only

55:30find fibers in the water supply if there's a break. Outside of that, you will not?

55:37That's correct. So some guidance material that was shared by the Canadian Water and Waste Water

55:43Institute had really looked at the material science and, again, the incident of exposure

55:49is specific to the fact that there's a break and those fibers that would have been encompassed

55:54in the cement become free and are within the water source itself. Within the distribution system for

56:02treated drinking water in the city, we have no asbestos pipe whatsoever. So, again, the occurrence

56:09of a break, which under that pressurized system is most prominent, would be where the exposure point

56:15is. So, again, I know this is coming from a feature in W5 that had led to some inquiries last week.

56:23The example was from the city of Regina that had a much larger proportion of asbestos cement pipes

56:30and those being within the treated distribution system that would reach customers.

56:37Okay, thank you. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Gibson. No, you want to move the

56:45motion. I have a question in a second. Yeah, I should have done at the beginning, but we'll come

56:49back. Any other questions on this side? Oh, okay. Just this is infinitely fascinating, right? The

56:58structural engineering, the chemistry. Thank you to your team. Our drinking water certainly is

57:03something that we just were fortunate in this community. Many communities don't have that

57:08benefit of just turning on the tap in the morning and assuming that it's safe. So,

57:12thank you for that. I want to keep it at risk and safety level. What's the mechanism? So,

57:21when there's a duty of care, right, like in a long-term care home, there's minimum staffing

57:26requirements. Like, there are things that they are absolutely required. So, we know there's a lot

57:32of turnover in municipalities. It sounds like the work you do is really technical. So, what's the

57:39mechanism if you find yourself short of key staff? What's the mechanism to come to council to let us

57:46know that outside of the multi-year budget or the budget process? Like, how do we know that you are

57:54at all times adequately staffed? Through to you, Madam Chair. There are challenges in trying to

58:07make sure that we have the appropriately trained and technical staff in order to run our water

58:15service. I will tell you that we're lucky that we have such great staff here. I'd like to think that

58:21they would like to stay with us. I know there's a lot of movement in the municipal world right now.

58:27If we ever found ourselves though in a position where we were critically short staffed,

58:33that we didn't have anybody who was cross-trained because we are starting to do that in environmental

58:38services as well to make sure that we have some redundancy there. There are external companies

58:46who can help us, but if we found that we were absolutely desperate, we wouldn't hesitate to

58:50come to council and ask for those resources. Great. Thank you. And my next question. We know

58:58that Bill 23 could affect wetlands. We know the wetlands are important for water filtration and

59:03the quality of the groundwater. It might be too early to tell, but how would we mitigate against

59:10that? If there's a loss of wetland and there's a deterioration of the quality of the groundwater,

59:15are we anticipating that in the future? Is it part of our future plans?

59:25To the chair, again, I would point to, again, source water protection. The requirements of

59:31source water protection remain through Bill 23. And as we see proposed threats to our drinking

59:37water sources that may come through a development application, we would continue to raise that

59:44issue and then work with the proponent to seek a solution. Again, if we're coming into

59:51what's the one or two year time of travel for a well within our community, those things are

59:57very serious and need to be done right. So as a result, again, that process remains under Bill

1:00:0523 and again, where we'd ideally work out a solution that would best mitigate or remove that

1:00:11issue. Perfect. Thank you very much. Okay. Any other questions? Councillor Gibson wants to move

1:00:19the motion. Do we have a seconder? Mayor Guthrie? Okay. Any comments? No. All right. Just before

1:00:29we go to the vote, I just want to point out, if people haven't read the actual report, I just

1:00:35really want to congratulate your staff because the auditor noted there continues to be strong

1:00:41evidence of ongoing commitment to the drinking water quality management system at the City of

1:00:46Guelph. System strengths observed during the audit included your team, staff engagement and participation

1:00:53in internal audit and management review, your risk assessment processes, your continual improvement,

1:00:59your documentation and your emergency response processes. So that gives me a lot of comfort

1:01:05and I'm thrilled to see that. And I want to give a kudos out to the community as well,

1:01:10because your summary report shows from 2012 to 2021, our population increased by 16.5%,

1:01:18but the annual average consumption decreased by 1%. So I mean, we are all responsible for the system

1:01:24and thank you for your leadership on that. Okay. With that, I'll call the vote. Any opposed? This

1:01:30is for approval of the 2022 Water Services Annual Report and Summary Report. Okay. I see none opposed.

1:01:40That passes. Thank you very much. Okay. So we are going back to item 7.2, the storm water

1:01:48management master plan. Councillor Bustill has some questions. So we'll just give staff a moment to

1:01:53change over. Okay. Thumbs up. Okay. Councillor Bustill. Thank you. And through the chair, I have a few

1:02:41questions and I'm also meeting with the staff tomorrow as I'm considering bringing a motion to

1:02:45council at the end of the month. I attended the storm water open house in November to start

1:02:50to learn about the system. I'd just like to echo what Councillor Oroch has said about

1:02:55recognizing staff for the two years of work on the project. I am learning a lot about

1:03:01storm water systems, parkland and delegated authority. So with the council's indulgence,

1:03:07I have a couple of questions. At the storm water master plan open house and in the executive

1:03:12summary, page 11, there are recommendations of 16 park sites for new end of pipe, pipe opportunities as

1:03:22part of park rehabilitation. I'm not quite sure what park rehabilitation is and perhaps someone

1:03:29can help me understand that term and that process because 11 of these parks are recommended for

1:03:35subsurface facilities and five are surface facilities, including Margaret Green Park. So the

1:03:41first one is just the term if you could help me understand that. So good morning council. And

1:03:48speaking as Terry Gaman, general manager of engineering and transportation services,

1:03:52joined by my colleague Colleen Gammie, she's an infrastructure planning engineer and project

1:03:56manager for the storm water master plan. Through your chair, I'll answer your question in Council

1:04:03The restoration terminology is referring to ensuring that we're restoring parts to the

1:04:07pre construction state. So if there's disruption, disturbance of the land,

1:04:12ensuring that we're putting it back to as a minimum, the pre construction, potentially

1:04:16there's also opportunities to enhance the features in the park during that process as well.

1:04:23Thank you. Just a supplemental. So enhancement would be turning it into a water feature,

1:04:28you know, things like that or through the chair, the term enhancement in this particular instance,

1:04:34as it relates to construction is more around the landscape features and what species are getting

1:04:39put back into the park and those types of things. Thank you. Parkland is golden. And I really want

1:04:47to thank the staff in the report for acknowledging that this is a significant value to the community.

1:04:54And I would also kind of interject and say even an unprogrammed park spaces of value to the community.

1:04:59I'm focusing on the donated Margaret Green Park. I couldn't see in the consultants report

1:05:04what other locations were being considered for a surface or a subsurface pond,

1:05:10such as the site on the other side of the park on the other side of the rail line,

1:05:15closer to Paisley Road. Could staff please respond? So through the chair and to Council

1:05:23Busetil, the report itself identifies opportunities for end-of-pipe solutions. And the the the

1:05:30theming behind that is the overarching direction from the master plan to improve environmental

1:05:36water quality and improve and protect the environment in terms of habitat, species,

1:05:40all those types of things that are impacted by water quality. And so the master plan itself

1:05:45has looked through a pennex eye. You can see the proposed locations that are those feasible

1:05:51opportunities in terms of space, size, city-owned land, those types of features

1:05:56that the master plan tells staff to go forth and look at those opportunities in more detail to

1:06:01determine you know what type of facility may in fact be appropriate for any given location.

1:06:06And those are noted sort of throughout the city. Thank you and that we didn't coordinate this.

1:06:11That nicely dovetails into my next question about I can appreciate that the surface pond or the

1:06:17recommendation for Margaret Green is a priority project just looking at page nine in the consultant

1:06:22report. It's the red area which is a priority. Can you please explain why there is a recommended

1:06:30surface storm water pond at Margaret Green Park? Just so I understand very plainly is it easier?

1:06:36Is it cheaper? Is it quicker? And the part B to this is given that it's a storm water pond,

1:06:44does the city purchase other parkland in order to maintain the parkland inventory or is the

1:06:50storm water pond now considered parkland? So through the chair, so to the first part of your

1:06:59question the master plan proposes a potential surface feature. The surface feature by nature is

1:07:07preferred in many instances because it is a lower cost for construction habitat for

1:07:14species as a secondary benefit. Ease of access, ease of maintenance, those types of features

1:07:21when compared to a subsurface facility that does sort of the same ultimate effect but

1:07:28typically at a higher cost and a higher degree of maintenance and disruption. And so I think that

1:07:33answers the first part of your question. The second part of your question in terms of sort of

1:07:37offsetting lands, typically what we would do is work with the community, work with our park staff

1:07:42to understand the opportunity further as it relates to a park and the impact it has or does

1:07:47not have to the park. Perhaps it's an enhancement and so in those situations we wouldn't look for

1:07:52offsetting land per se. It's more an integrated feature of the park itself. Thank you. The other

1:08:00piece to that is then is the surface pond considered parkland. So when we get an inventory again of

1:08:05parkland, would that be considered when we're figuring out the amount of hectares per

1:08:11person or in a community? Is that now then? Does it change the definition of what that is or not?

1:08:18And it's okay if you can't answer that now. I can. So through the chair to council,

1:08:23Abusatel, I'll jump in here and say that I believe that it is included. We have a number of naturalized

1:08:27areas and stormwater ponds throughout our park inventory and so we track both programmed park

1:08:32space as well as naturalized and other uses of the park in our overall parkland inventory.

1:08:40Thank you. The next question is about kind of I looked at the city's website, you know, I'm

1:08:46still orienting and reading everything in my path. The stormwater plan project update on the website,

1:08:51I couldn't see any reference to parks being considered in that process as part of the update.

1:08:56I looked at the recreation master plan project update and I couldn't see any reference to park

1:09:01rehabilitation. Can you tell me how the public becomes aware that there is a project being

1:09:06considered in a park so that they can become engaged at a point when the problem statement

1:09:11is being framed? Options are being considered, site locations are being determined and not

1:09:17after the decision has been made and engagement is more at that design stage.

1:09:23So through the chair to council or Abusatel, yes, so what would happen after approval of a

1:09:29master plan like this is the master plan essentially tells staff to go forth and seek

1:09:33to evaluate these opportunities further and so when a specific project is looked at at a specific

1:09:39location like a park, staff will then go into pre-design processes, collect the right applicable

1:09:45information and then go out and engage the community specific to that particular outcome. So,

1:09:51you know, in the instance of a stormwater management facility, should it be above ground,

1:09:56how big is it, how are the safety features designed, you know, should it be in this portion of the park

1:10:00or that portion of the park, those types of discussions happen at a detailed level

1:10:05when the project itself is resourced and delivered.

1:10:13And so kind of follow up to that. So again, using Margaret Green, and it's related to the recommendations

1:10:19in the report. So surface, the recommendation is to refer the report and the recommendations to

1:10:26the budget process. So in referring it to the budget process, is the costing in the budget

1:10:33process of a subsurface, which would be more expensive or a surface. So it's already the

1:10:39less costly option in the budget. And just kind of building on what you were saying earlier is

1:10:45that when it comes to the design, really the parameters have already been set in the budget

1:10:51process, because it will be a surface pond. And really the consultation with the community is

1:10:57about the orientation and any other kinds of I think the term used is enhancements there.

1:11:03So is there an opportunity for the community to get involved or have a conversation around?

1:11:07Or is it at the budget? I guess I'm asking the question. Is it at the budget time?

1:11:12So to the chair, the short answer is yes, there's an opportunity for the community to get involved

1:11:16at a later date when the project itself comes to the community. In terms of the budgeting process,

1:11:21what staff would do is take the recommendations from the master plan and then integrate those into

1:11:26the budget. The master plan itself recommends a preliminary preferred option, but by no means

1:11:31is that the final option. So those cost estimates would be based on the preliminary preferred,

1:11:35but they would be subject to change during the detailed design process that has to follow,

1:11:40including the community consultation process. Thank you. So what I'm hearing is the community

1:11:44consultation process still has an opportunity to influence in terms of the budget and those kinds

1:11:49of conversations. Thank you for that. The next question I have is about capital projects plan.

1:11:56And again, I can say I'm new still. So we want to be efficient, right? If I'm doing

1:12:01things in my home, I want to scaffold my efforts, my resources. Is there a master plan capital projects

1:12:09so that when we look at Margaret Green as an example, so that the projects are scaffolded?

1:12:14And just off the top of my head, we have trails, we have the Metrolinx underpass,

1:12:19the storm water pond. And where do I see that? And does that come to council?

1:12:27Through the chair to council, as a general response, staff do a lot of work to integrate

1:12:32and align our work plans and our projects. So if I think about a road corridor, for example,

1:12:36we seek to make sure we're maximizing and optimizing those investments. So we wouldn't

1:12:40replace just the water pipe and then repave over it if we could replace the water pipe sanitary

1:12:45pipe, storm water pipe at the same time. So it's that integrated approach that we apply to all of

1:12:50our capital programming and in your 10 and 25 year capital forecast that takes the inputs from all

1:12:55the master plans that go through and receive council approval. With respect to the park itself,

1:13:00certainly when we get into design of something like a piece of infrastructure,

1:13:04like a storm water management facility, we would work with our internal partners. So we think

1:13:08parks planning, environmental planners, natural heritage features, all those things that get

1:13:13integrated throughout the various city departments, as well again, back to the community feedback

1:13:16and the various community stakeholders that might have input to that process.

1:13:21Thank you. And so my last question is about just that process of community engagement. And I know

1:13:27from where I sit, I'm jumping to one plan to another plan, trying to piece things together

1:13:31and overlay all these maps and so on. Is there a master plan around spatial area, whether it's

1:13:39through a capital lens or through a parks lens to say, hey community, these are all the projects

1:13:44that are coming here. Some are going to be way off like the Metrolinx, you know, underpass,

1:13:48extremely costly or those kinds of things. So that the community has a good sense of what is

1:13:52coming and what is not coming. And the rationale for that or the reason I'm asking is communities

1:13:58asking about these projects, but also, you know, sometimes decisions and engagement piecemeal

1:14:05is decisions here close off doors and opportunities elsewhere. And so the community is saying,

1:14:11you know, how do we get a comprehensive rather than an incremental approach to this so we can

1:14:17get a better understanding. And so just a question around that. So through the chair,

1:14:24to Councillor Busuttil, I'll jump in here just in relation to park master plans. So generally,

1:14:29as a rule of thumb, we do parks master plans when we bring a new park online and that sets out the

1:14:34plan for the park. A good example would be the Eastview park master plan. And so it isn't our

1:14:41normal process to redo a master plan when we are adding new amenities into a park, because we are

1:14:47adding and changing amenities over the course and the history of a park. And so instead we do,

1:14:52as Mr. Gaiman said, work in an integrated way between our departments to make sure from an

1:14:56engaging engagement point of view, we are communicating that with the community. And as I

1:15:02think you said, Councillor Busuttil, that scaffolding concept so that we're making sure that

1:15:06various projects within a given space are aligned and done in an analogical fashion.

1:15:12But we don't generally, at this point, our sort of master planning process for parks is our parks

1:15:18and rec master plan. And that's our broader look at all of our parks, individual parks like Margaret

1:15:24Green, we don't typically go back and redo a master plan. Instead, as we add amenities or change

1:15:30amenities out over the life of the park, we then just communicate those with the community in an

1:15:34ongoing way. And as I say, work collaboratively internally. And I know that engineering and

1:15:39parks are working very closely on this park in particular, to make sure that if there are

1:15:43opportunities to sequence work in a logical way, we do that. And I'll pass it to Ms. Holmes.

1:15:51Thank you. Through the chair to Councillor Busuttil. So I just wanted to add that whenever we do

1:15:56public consultation, we can appreciate that there's a whole bunch of master plans out there,

1:16:01all different bits and parts. Internally, we do, as Mr. Gaiman had mentioned,

1:16:06so much work to make sure that we are properly coordinated. When we do public engagement, when

1:16:11we go out there, what we try to do is bring those other elements as well. So the community has a

1:16:15full picture about what's going on in their neighborhood, not necessarily just a particular

1:16:20item that we're trying to get input on. So you'll see a lot more of that, for instance, with the

1:16:24downtown, for instance, there's so much work going on in the downtown. What you'll start to see is

1:16:28that if we have a public engagement piece on one part of a project or a master plan,

1:16:35we try to make sure those other elements are also there for awareness or to try and get input on

1:16:40those as well so that the public can see how those are jigsawed together. Thank you. And just my,

1:16:47it's a final supplemental is, I just needed to ask DCO, Clack Bush, please. So there have never been

1:16:53any master plans done for existing parts, just a clarification and then just a supplement. So

1:16:58through the chair to Councillor Busuttil, I don't want to say never because there have been times

1:17:02where circumstances have changed. We will occasionally go back or if council directs that,

1:17:07but we have so many parks throughout the city that we're adding and changing amenities out.

1:17:13We don't go back and revisit the master plan. There's no set regular cycle. It is typically

1:17:20new parks that we do master plans for and then those stay in for the perpetuity and we may change

1:17:26out amenities, but it's not a hard and fast rule if there's a circumstance that dictated it,

1:17:31that we felt there was a need to go back and do a master plan. Certainly for Margaret Green Park,

1:17:37we have not redone the master plan for the park because our current plan that's in place,

1:17:42staff have been working through both parks and engineering in terms of those additional amenities

1:17:48that we're adding now, like the splash pad and then obviously working in the much, much longer term

1:17:53as the engineering team looks at potential for stormwater that I believe is sort of in the

1:17:5910 year out range. So we work both in the shorter and the long term and so that was a long answer

1:18:06to say generally no, we don't redo master plans for existing parks, but it's dependent on each

1:18:13individual park and the circumstances. Thank you. If I could just do the supplemental to DCA homes.

1:18:19Thank you for that response. I do have a question about the availability of a current plan of I

1:18:27understand the staff and I sincerely appreciate all the work that you know it's like you know

1:18:31dominance of this changes this changes. I understand all of that from a community perspective,

1:18:37whether it is the stormwater process or these other processes, I had to mine for the information. I

1:18:43had to you know spend the you know hours and hours trying to find the information and overlay

1:18:48things. It would be great to have you know the Margaret Green Park. Here's what's happening. Here

1:18:53are the plans. Some kind of a consolidation there because we're asking people to become engaged

1:18:59in windows of opportunities and I've been flooded with questions about you know not only stormwater,

1:19:04the splash pad, but also about the Metrolinx underpass. So we don't have all the answers,

1:19:09but having it someplace where people can get access to it would be great and if it exists,

1:19:14I apologize. Please let me know. Through the chair to Councillor Booth-Till. So we'll certainly

1:19:20take that back as a as a I guess a particular concern for that park, but also for all the

1:19:26facilities that we're planning as part of the stormwater management plan. This not one

1:19:34giant plan, a faster plan for the whole city, so we do do it in our certain in our different

1:19:40areas and like I said we try our best to coordinate and communicate that the best we can,

1:19:44but we can appreciate that sometimes from a resident point of view that sometimes it is

1:19:48harder to find that information. So we'll take that back and try and put that for consideration

1:19:53as we go forward with the public engagement. Thank you and that's it for questions.

1:19:57Thank you Councillor Booth-Till. Councillor Allt has questions. Councillor Allt,

1:20:01would you be willing to move the motion? Yes, I would be quite happy to move that.

1:20:05Councillor Gibson will second that. Oh we got one. Oh it's important to find a seconder.

1:20:09There we go. I thought I saw Mayor Guthrie. Oh sorry I was looking over here. All right go ahead

1:20:13Councillor Allt. Oh thank you. This is a I hope a quick question and regrettably I don't believe

1:20:18that any of the people that are current the staff that are currently here were involved for this,

1:20:23but I want to thank Councillor Booth-Till because I've learned a lot and this is essentially part

1:20:29of a workshop as like we say in Cal we we're allowed to have a little bit more latitude. I

1:20:35have no problem with the report at all, but there was something that came up that was raised and

1:20:39that was the issue of stormwater ponds. Now years ago I believe perhaps DCAO CLAC was present for

1:20:47this. We had a situation where a community group used a stormwater pond as a skating rink and they

1:20:54argued that this was recreational and we as a city claimed there was a liability issue here.

1:21:00So this might be a question for some of the staff at the front or it might even be a question for

1:21:05Mr. Cooper to get back to us on. I don't want to go into closed on this. Stormwater parks as an

1:21:12aesthetic or a recreational opportunity in a parkland included it as an opportunity,

1:21:21does that not create some risk that we would rather avoid? So through the chair to Councillor

1:21:28Ault I will jump in and keep it fairly simple at this point because I think there's lots more

1:21:32there and obviously Mr. Cooper if you were looking for legal advice you would need to go into closed

1:21:36for that, but as a general rule of thumb stormwater ponds we do not support encourage skating on

1:21:42stormwater ponds because of and again my colleagues can help with the science but it's generally there's

1:21:48a lot of salt and they're not safe and so we do discourage people from using stormwater ponds.

1:21:53There's generally signage posted. We try to make them look as aesthetically pleasing as possible

1:21:58but there are risks associated with stormwater ponds and the safety of what

1:22:03where the ice might look safe and isn't so that is correct that we look to incorporate them into

1:22:08parks if that's the case in a way that is aesthetically pleasing and fits in with the

1:22:14general fit of the park but we do not encourage or support people using them as an amenity at any time

1:22:21for ice in particular and I'll miss Holmes is going to jump in and probably help more with science.

1:22:26Well I'll just short and sweet are these are stormwater management facilities that it is

1:22:33infrastructure to manage stormwater so they're not we don't build them to be recreational facilities

1:22:40so I think in short I think that's where Ms. Clark was just going. And I thank you both for that

1:22:46answer and it partially satisfies me. The problem that I do have is while I recognize that we are

1:22:53not building them as a recreational or as an aesthetic aspect of the the park it strikes me

1:22:59that we're also trying to do that we're trying to do two things at once and I'm not going to ask

1:23:04for the answer now but the question that I have is if it's a challenge in one season is it not

1:23:10therefore possibly a challenge in other seasons as well and like I said if there's anything legal

1:23:15that we need to deal with I'll rely on legal staff to bring it back at some point. So Councillor

1:23:25is your question around can we speed on them? That was just a comment it strikes me that we've

1:23:29got a four season issue here not a single season issue and we're we're trying to do two things

1:23:34at once we're doing stormwater management and we're trying to find a way of addressing that in

1:23:41in a fashion that makes a secondary use which is aesthetic or complementary to a parkland

1:23:47and I just wonder whether that's a wise approach. Okay.

1:23:51Okay. Is the comment or do staff have a response?

1:23:57Okay and I know we're looking at that on the Claremont B secondary plan because of the the

1:24:01topography there. Okay Mr. Gaiman. Through the chair to Councillor Aul I think you know with respect

1:24:09to your commentary every circumstance is a bit unique in terms of the the design features the

1:24:13function of the infrastructure those types of those types of parameters for example you just

1:24:18mentioned the Claremont B MESP and in that area we look to do stormwater capture areas that can

1:24:24also be used passively right so when those areas are drained you know maybe they can be used for

1:24:29more passive recreational purposes but when the when the facilities themselves have the water

1:24:34and then they're doing something with that water whether it's treating them or maintaining flooding

1:24:37levels or those types of things and that's where you know we would we would ask the public to stay

1:24:42away from those infrastructure for safety reasons and so there's a nuance to what you're getting at

1:24:46there and in some of the newer designs there's there's opportunity but in some of the older

1:24:50areas of the city where infrastructure exists those opportunities are different. Thank you Mr.

1:24:57Gaiman. Councillor Downer has a question. Yeah thank you through you chair or work so yep I think

1:25:05some of the problem we're having is that we keep condoms, stormwater management,

1:25:08ponds, their facilities and when you think of so this is going to give me to a question

1:25:14so when I think of the I think it's Westminster Woods neighborhood where the stormwater facilities

1:25:21and you would know on Ward 6 run behind the houses and they're kind of like

1:25:24little they can be little rivers right or they can just be dried up most of the time

1:25:28so is that the type of thing we could be looking at too that they would not necessarily be

1:25:33ponds but they could have that kind of a better aesthetic look to them and when you talk about

1:25:39passive. So through the chair short answers yes that it's a different type of stormwater

1:25:44management facility different purpose all about the form and function of the design

1:25:49and then you know in those instances we're also using the naturalization concept a little bit better

1:25:55to manage the water and so in some instances in the past the practice might have been to use more

1:26:00concrete for example moving forward we're seeking to naturalize or re-naturalize some of those areas.

1:26:05Yeah so that's what I'm sort of thinking in my mind more we're going to naturalize these areas and

1:26:10have a more of a natural more of like a wetland kind of function to them in some ways but

1:26:16there's stormwater. So the other thing too then I'm just going to check that we make sure that we

1:26:22ensure that these proposed stormwater facilities in these different parks are also identified

1:26:31within the Parks and Rec master plan so that people that we're that's an ongoing process right now

1:26:38from my perspective and no offense to staff but I don't know how many people were engaged in the

1:26:44stormwater master plan project but I think but there are a lot more people engaged in the Parks

1:26:50and Rec project so it's sort of a good heads up for people that live in that neighborhood and could

1:26:55create some more discussion around this issue. So through the chair to councillor Downer I think

1:27:00that's a good takeaway for us that we can look at how to integrate into that Parks and Rec master

1:27:05plan and make sure again to councillor Buse-Till's point about the ease of finding things make sure

1:27:10that that's better aligned so that that people can sort of see that holistic view.

1:27:16Here Mike. The stormwater master plan we need to ensure that people in those that are interested

1:27:22in those parks and that that there will be work being done in those parks around that issue.

1:27:29So I don't know whether is that okay with I know I've heard from Defecio

1:27:35Packwurst but is that through the chair so maybe I'll just add to what's already been said again

1:27:42we with the stormwater master plan we did coordinate a lot with our with our partners.

1:27:48I know yeah but but I will say that again this is a master plan so at a very high level it identifies

1:27:54opportunities as Mr. Gamer did mentioned earlier as these come forward through the municipal EA

1:28:00process that's where you will get the very targeted public engagement around those specific parks

1:28:09and so that's where we'll be able to connect the dots between what the parks plan is and what we

1:28:14are trying to do in terms of stormwater management. I appreciate that but is there any objection to

1:28:19having this identified also as as possible opportunities within the parks and rec master

1:28:26plan because that's where these parks are identified through the chair. Our parks plan

1:28:34will already speak to that we'll make sure of that so I don't think that's an issue.

1:28:37Yeah okay that's good thank you. Okay all right I just want to go to the screen to see if there

1:28:42are any questions on screen. Councillor Caton. Thank you chair through you to staff.

1:28:50So I was just wondering so as we have a turtle watch at Maltby and I had a resident recently

1:28:55concerned with the welfare of turtles during a recent silt removal maintenance at a stormwater

1:29:00pond in Ward 1. I'm just interested in the difference between the above ground and below

1:29:05ground stormwater management systems in terms of the cost and the effect on animal habitats.

1:29:11I know that they're not meant for animals to live there but they do so do we have a breakdown on

1:29:18the environmental impacts of both options as well as cost differential? So through the chair

1:29:24to Councillor Caton I think the answer that you're asking for does tend to vary from facility to

1:29:31facility and the design characteristics and the uniqueness in each location so that's kind of

1:29:36first and foremost at the same time more generally. The cost to to put these features or these

1:29:42facilities below surface is higher for the reasons I mentioned before construction costs, access costs,

1:29:48maintenance costs those types of things because by nature they're underground at the same time

1:29:54underground does remove access for species from a habitat perspective. A secondary benefit of

1:30:01stormwater facilities being above grade is that habitat piece and when we have to do maintenance

1:30:05to those facilities that is where we work with third-party experts to make sure that we're

1:30:10protective of the environment we're protective of those species in some instances it may involve

1:30:14even relocating species to a more naturalized area for example. So those are sort of the practices

1:30:20that are in place in terms of cost by magnitude it's sort of difficult to say really vary by facility.

1:30:28Thank you and just a follow-up that's sort of related. So within the stormwater management plan

1:30:33there's a large area planned at the end of industrial street which is near the reformatory grounds

1:30:39could you please speak to the process that's being used and you mentioned what's being used to preserve

1:30:44than the natural habitats but could you talk to preserving the heritage and other potential

1:30:51items of interest in that area and could you know where people can get more detailed information

1:30:56about that project? So through the chair to counsel Kate and yet the project itself is identified in

1:31:02the end-of-pipe facilities portion of the stormwater master plan it's a Pinnock's Eye

1:31:06but certainly staff are aware of the cultural significance in that area we work with our

1:31:11cultural heritage staff we're aware of the sort of overall reformatory district study

1:31:18and we also work with the GRCA in those particular instances as well when it gets to

1:31:23natural features including the you know the adjacent stream and features along York Road.

1:31:30Great thank you very much. Thank you Counselor Katelyn. Okay I'm looking to my right no more

1:31:37questions I'm looking to my left any questions I don't see any I'm looking on the screen no

1:31:43all right wonderful so um oh Counselor Bustill okay we'll go to Counselor Bustill for a comment.

1:31:52Thank you and through the chair I really just have two comments the first one is about equity and I

1:31:57found the maps in the trail master plan really quite informative and it really just layered on

1:32:04top of I guess my grassroots knowledge but also the park's knowledge the equity analysis the population

1:32:11density and again harping back to Margaret Green Park is this informs for me how community

1:32:18engagement should happen I recognize that this is a regional park it's it's serving many needs but

1:32:23it also it also serves the needs of a diverse population along Westwood Road and also on Silver

1:32:31Creek who access the park over the Hanlon and should the metro links underpass ever happen

1:32:37there's also a huge diversity and needs a vulnerable population on the paisley side that would

1:32:44access the park as well so I my comment is that I think it behooves us to have communication and

1:32:51engagement recognizing who we're trying to engage in this process including the mediums and so on

1:32:57and access to information the second comment and this leads into what I was saying about

1:33:04engagement you know people engage you know in windows and you know there's a gardening group

1:33:10that I'm a part of in the community and the seniors have asked when is the concession stand so I can

1:33:15walk to the park and sit down on a bench and have a cup of tea going to happen everyone has a particular

1:33:20interest and I completely understand the ask list is is very long you know outdoor ovens and

1:33:27picnic tables it goes on and on and on and I'm I'm hoping that's something like a medium and maybe

1:33:33park master plan isn't the right language but a conversation for a localized conversation

1:33:38because there's mutual learning that happens there's conversation and understanding that oh there are

1:33:43seniors in the community who have some needs and interests in the parks as well so I'm not sure

1:33:47what that is I am concerned about that because I do see a disconnect between you know the population

1:33:54and their engagement and their opportunity to be engaged in the process and so though

1:33:59but I'm sure those are my two comments thank you councillor Bustill any other comments

1:34:05okay seeing none I just wanted to comment the conversation around the value of storm water

1:34:13where it's located I think is really interesting I think at the end of the day city-wide these

1:34:19plans are looking at climate change mitigation and adaptation they're a necessary engineering

1:34:25function and you know the the price tag is not for the faint of heart but I think it's important

1:34:33for the community to realize this is a significant plan and investment in storm water protection

1:34:40until 2051 and so the current budget for storm water in the capital budget is 201 million dollars

1:34:49but this plan calls for an additional 300 million dollars of investment in storm water so that's a

1:34:54huge leap forward in terms of climate change adaptation resiliency etc and I think it's

1:35:02important for the community to recognize that that is part of our climate commitment okay with that

1:35:07I will call the vote any opposed all right that has passed so um any area announcements

1:35:23no I will have a chair's announcement and that's just to the general public you know we've