Salary for the position of Mayor be maintained at the 2026 current rate for the 2026-2030 term of office, subject to annual inflationary increases equal to the Non-Union Municipal Employee (NUME) economic increase approved as part of future Council budget deliberations.

1:43:39Council renumeration review, we have one delegation.

1:43:42Morgan Dandy, I see you here.

1:43:44Feel free to come on up, Morgan.

1:43:47And as you know, but I have to say it out loud anyways,

1:43:50no more than five minutes.

1:43:53You'll hear the chime at the four minute 30 second mark

1:43:56and that gives you the warning of the 30 seconds left, okay?

1:44:02Stick around just in case there's a follow up question

1:44:05from myself or my colleagues

1:44:08and thank you for joining us.

1:44:09I'll turn it over to you whenever you're ready, okay?

1:44:17Good morning, mayor, council, staff,

1:44:19and fellow Gualfites.

1:44:20Today, this iteration of council

1:44:23will make the decision about the compensation

1:44:25for the next iteration of council.

1:44:29At committee of the whole,

1:44:30the chair opened this item by framing it

1:44:33as a difficult conversation.

1:44:37I ask, why is fair recompense

1:44:40a difficult conversation to have?

1:44:43If we want quality people representing our city,

1:44:46why is it a difficult conversation

1:44:48to ensure that quality people representing us

1:44:51as city councilors are appropriately compensated?

1:44:56If we want more diversity around the horseshoe,

1:44:58how can we continue to represent the role of councillor

1:45:03as a privilege, requiring some sort of sacrifice

1:45:07to carry the responsibility of governing the city?

1:45:12The current remuneration is only $1,530

1:45:16or $127.50 per month,

1:45:21more than the recommended base from four years ago.

1:45:24While the new me-based cost of living

1:45:26has increased remuneration by $5,411 over four years,

1:45:33using a 35-hour work week,

1:45:35that's less than a 20 cent per hour increase per year.

1:45:41Given the complexity of the files dealt with

1:45:43by this iteration of council,

1:45:46a 20 cent per hour increase per year seems farcical.

1:45:51After following the majority of meetings

1:45:53of council since 2020,

1:45:55I foresee the complexity continuing to increase

1:45:59through the next iteration of council.

1:46:02If, as Chair Goller posited,

1:46:04quote, we are intentionally working

1:46:06to make this position more accessible

1:46:08to members of all economic classes in our community,

1:46:11end quote, how is maintaining the compensation

1:46:15at only $1,500 more than the citizen committee recommendation

1:46:20from four years ago,

1:46:22going to attract individuals

1:46:24who are not of the privileged class.

1:46:28Using a yearly 3% cost of living increase,

1:46:32council remuneration will be less than $60,000 per year

1:46:37if a 0% remuneration is decided today.

1:46:42When averaged over the eight-year period,

1:46:44that amounts to a less than 15 cent per hour increase

1:46:48from the recommendation not taken four years ago.

1:46:52In my opinion, if this iteration of council

1:46:54decides to have a 0% remuneration increase

1:46:57for the next iteration of council,

1:47:02oh, sorry, I lost my place.

1:47:04It's a further erosion of the value placed on the role

1:47:08by those in the role.

1:47:10This is the third consecutive iteration of council

1:47:12that's chosen to not follow

1:47:15what the previous iteration decided,

1:47:17not to follow the recommendations made

1:47:20by first a citizen committee and now a staff review.

1:47:24If the sitting members of council don't value the role

1:47:27enough to adequately compensate

1:47:28for the volume and complexity of the work they do,

1:47:31how can there be any discussion

1:47:33about making the role accessible to all economic classes

1:47:36and have more diverse voices around the horseshoe?

1:47:40I agree that a 33% increase sounds excessive,

1:47:44yet a 0% increase seems regressive.

1:47:48If council were to have a modest 3% increase

1:47:51to base compensation, bringing it to $54,443

1:47:56to begin November 15th, 2026,

1:48:00with the new me cost of living assumed at 3% per annum

1:48:04over the subsequent four years, $61,276

1:48:09will be the base compensation

1:48:10when the next iteration of council

1:48:13is deliberating this question at the end of their term.

1:48:16Still almost $9,000 less than the recommendation

1:48:20council was given at the beginning of the month.

1:48:25I wonder, will the vote today be based upon

1:48:28the perceived optics of giving yourselves a raise,

1:48:32that being of service is a role reserved for the privilege

1:48:36that austerity is preferred over quality of representation,

1:48:41or will the vote today be based upon the needed optic

1:48:47of placing value on the depth and complexity of the role

1:48:53while working to attract quality individuals

1:48:56from all economic classes in our community?

1:49:02Thank you, Morgan.

1:49:04Is there a follow up at this time?

1:49:07There is, oh, there is, yes, Councillor Caron, please.

1:49:10I do have a question, excellent delegation.

1:49:12And it's more about how we set compensation.

1:49:17And you made reference in your delegation

1:49:20about having a community committee

1:49:24and council taking staff recommendation.

1:49:28Is there another alternative that you've seen

1:49:31in your research or looking around Canada or Ontario

1:49:36that is a better model

1:49:37for determining appropriate compensation?

1:49:42I agree with what Councillor Phil Alt said

1:49:44at Committee of the Whole, this is a governance issue.

1:49:48And constantly framing it around the horseshoe

1:49:54as a difficult conversation and giving yourselves a raise.

1:49:59The messaging that that sends out to the general public

1:50:04is you don't value your role enough

1:50:08to compensate it adequately for those coming next.

1:50:14And if that is such a difficult conversation,

1:50:18then you need to take yourselves out of it

1:50:19as much as possible.

1:50:21And in my opinion, the only way to take yourselves out of it

1:50:25as much as possible is strike the citizens committee

1:50:29and listen to what they say.

1:50:33Hours upon hours of time is put in by this committee

1:50:40to review everything.

1:50:42And then it's citizens saying,

1:50:45this is the value we place upon what our council does.

1:50:51Please council, accept what the citizens feel your worth.

1:51:01Great, thank you.

1:51:04And with that, thank you for your delegation.

1:51:07So back to us council,

1:51:10we have two motions from Committee of the Whole.

1:51:14Would anyone be willing to move those

1:51:17on forest, please?

1:51:19Okay, Gibson and Galler.

1:51:22Okay, anything further on this?

1:51:28I would like to have a discussion about something,

1:51:30but I'll go to councillor all first.

1:51:32Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

1:51:33If we could have the motions split, it would be appreciated.

1:51:37Yep, no problem.

1:51:38And Kate, I think I saw your hand too.

1:51:42I was going to ask for the same thing.

1:51:44Okay, perfect.

1:51:48Yeah, I have not talked to anyone at all

1:51:54since Committee of the Whole, and that's really bad of me.

1:51:57So I'm sorry I've been busy,

1:51:59but I would be happy to take a moment here.

1:52:02And I hope that I come across a genuine, I hope I do,

1:52:10in that I do actually think

1:52:14that we are doing somewhat of a disservice

1:52:19to the next term of councilors.

1:52:22And it might be difficult maybe for my colleagues on council

1:52:26to feel like they need to say that about a pay.

1:52:30That's why I'm kind of taking it on me a little bit here.

1:52:33And so I would be willing to support,

1:52:38and I don't know if there's anybody here

1:52:40that'd be willing to consider a different amendment,

1:52:44but I would be willing to support,

1:52:49not a 30% 32, I think it was,

1:52:54trying to remember what it was.

1:52:57Not a 32.8% bump,

1:53:00I think maybe there's some heads nodding on that.

1:53:03But they're zero to me after,

1:53:09even though we can have the debate

1:53:11about the Citizens Committee and the value that they bring,

1:53:16which by the way, I think that's a great debate

1:53:19and discussion we should have.

1:53:20I don't disregard that at all.

1:53:23But there's also a lot of value

1:53:24that our own professional HR staff did as well

1:53:27in the process that we have in front of us too.

1:53:29Like we can't outright dismiss this,

1:53:32and I don't think we can outright dismiss that too.

1:53:34Like I think that that isn't appropriate.

1:53:37So taking the mayor thing out of it completely,

1:53:43I don't know if there's somebody here

1:53:44that would be willing to look at a different type of option,

1:53:53but I remember before Committee of the Whole,

1:53:57I was talking to some counselors about the issue,

1:54:00and there was a few options that I'll just throw it on the table.

1:54:04I think it's worthwhile a discussion with all of you.

1:54:08One would be that, and sorry,

1:54:13I just wanna say one more thing before I give the options.

1:54:15Councillor Downer mentioned this at Committee of the Whole,

1:54:19I believe, that by continually every four years refusing this,

1:54:25like it's just making it worse and worse and worse as we go.

1:54:31Like we cannot, in my view, we cannot dismiss that.

1:54:36So one of the options then is that someone just says,

1:54:42oh, well, let's do a 5% pump or a 10%, like pick a number,

1:54:48not 32.

1:54:50And the other one could be that to bring us up to the correct,

1:54:55to whoever the counselors are, to the correct rate,

1:54:59by the end of the next term,

1:55:02that the 30% actually be divided out over four years.

1:55:07So it's actually implemented as a sequence over several years,

1:55:11so that by the end of the term,

1:55:13it is to the rate that is being established now.

1:55:17I'm just giving options here,

1:55:18I'm not saying I even like one or the other,

1:55:20but I just wanna make sure that I think

1:55:25that there is optics involved here,

1:55:29and I'm trying to actually come forward with all of you

1:55:35to say we do need to actually look at this

1:55:39or the continuation of this is going to cause

1:55:42more and more problems down the road.

1:55:44I'll leave it at that,

1:55:45maybe there's a discussion that we could have here

1:55:48other than just nothing.

1:55:51I mean, that is the alternative

1:55:52and that's the will of counsel, so be it.

1:55:55I view what counsel does,

1:56:03especially moving into what this term has done

1:56:06on what the load or the work that's on them

1:56:11that I've seen moving into the next load

1:56:14is probably willing to see something other than zero.

1:56:19So I'll just be quiet and see if there's anyone

1:56:21that wants to have a discussion about it

1:56:24before I call the vote,

1:56:25and I'm happy to have the discussion with you.

1:56:28So, did I see a hand come up here?

1:56:30No?

1:56:32I'll go Alt and then I'll go Klassen, okay?

1:56:36Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

1:56:38I appreciate your sentiment.

1:56:40I think it's the appropriate sentiment.

1:56:41However I am reluctant to support anything

1:56:44that comes to this council today

1:56:46because I think we risk pulling a number out of the air

1:56:50and it could be anything from zero to 300%.

1:56:53I think that gets us into a more challenging predicament

1:56:58than what we had during the Committee of the Whole.

1:57:01Rather, I would suggest that this be referred somewhere

1:57:06and I don't even know where,

1:57:07but it should probably come back to council

1:57:10if at all appropriate at the next month, next meeting.

1:57:16I think there's real danger in us picking a number

1:57:19in this group as you suggested,

1:57:22although I think your sentiment is spot on.

1:57:28All right, thank you.

1:57:29And we, I guess we could kind of take care of the Mayor part

1:57:32and then the second motion and then just refer

1:57:37the council one to next month

1:57:39with maybe some parameters around some information

1:57:41that people are looking for if you wanted to,

1:57:44or we could just settle it now.

1:57:45So thank you for your opinions Klassen and then Gar.

1:57:52Yes, thank you through you, Mr. Mayor.

1:57:56I have a question of clarity, if that's okay.

1:57:59So the delegate brought up the last two opportunities,

1:58:04the Citizen Committee and the previous review

1:58:10of the boundaries and that was an opportunity

1:58:13for the previous council to change the composition

1:58:16of council as well as the pay.

1:58:18So that's from my understanding, two terms of council.

1:58:22Could you please explain, how do I phrase this?

1:58:27Like we've kicked it, like council has kind of kicked it

1:58:30down the road.

1:58:31So what is the differential between, you know,

1:58:35what the Citizen Committee said,

1:58:36if first could you clarify the timeline

1:58:39and second, what were the,

1:58:41what did the Citizen Committee suggest at that time

1:58:43versus what did the report suggest

1:58:47from the previous term of council?

1:58:52Through you Mayor Guthrie to Councillor Klassen's question,

1:58:55in terms of timing, so there was a Citizen Committee

1:58:58that was in place in advance of the previous term of council

1:59:01and that Citizen Committee, without discrediting the work

1:59:06of the committee, you know, carried out similar work

1:59:08to what staff carried out, you know,

1:59:09an evaluation of benchmark municipalities,

1:59:12some comparison work and certainly some engagement

1:59:15with members of council in terms of workload

1:59:17and requirements of the role.

1:59:20There was a recommendation at that time

1:59:22for an increase in compensation.

1:59:24It was not, I don't have the exact number with me

1:59:26but I don't recall it being as significant a move

1:59:29as the 32.8% that was outlined in the staff report

1:59:32at the beginning of this month.

1:59:34At the last juncture of council's discussion

1:59:38at this moment, that's when council recommended

1:59:41or directed staff to take that work in-house.

1:59:45It is a difficult position for a Citizen Committee,

1:59:48I mean, they're gonna carry out that work,

1:59:50they're gonna form their recommendations

1:59:53based on evidence and data.

1:59:55And it was felt, it's a challenge as well

1:59:58to recruit individuals for that type of committee.

2:00:01You're looking for folks that have human resources background,

2:00:04perhaps accounting background, folks that understand

2:00:06the role of elected officials, understand the operating

2:00:08environment through which you work.

2:00:10And so there was difficulty in challenging recruiting

2:00:12for that committee, which was part, I think,

2:00:14of the calculus for council to move and direct staff

2:00:17to carry out that work, hence what we did.

2:00:19The other decision point that you referenced,

2:00:22Councillor Claesden, was the council composition

2:00:24and more bound review.

2:00:26That is docketed for work that would come

2:00:28in advance of the next term of council,

2:00:30the 2030 term of council.

2:00:32And of course, depending the recommendation

2:00:35and direction today from council,

2:00:36we would include in that a review of full-time,

2:00:40part-time status, much similar to what the city saw

2:00:45in the lead-up to this term of council.

2:00:47So that gives you the sense of timing.

2:00:49The delta, the amount was not quite as significant,

2:00:51but that's probably a product of, as time progresses

2:00:55and adjustments aren't made, it creates a bit of a wider delta

2:00:59in terms of the compensation and remuneration for council.

2:01:03Okay, thanks for that explanation.

2:01:06I had another question with regard to the comparator data.

2:01:11So a Google search landed me on City of Waterloo,

2:01:17who this year approved an increase to $58,000 per councillor,

2:01:23which was an increase from 44,000,

2:01:25which was an increase of 33%.

2:01:28And I'm not sure if I don't believe that one was included.

2:01:32So I was just wondering if you were aware of that decision

2:01:39that came recently and what might be different

2:01:41with their comparator data versus ours?

2:01:47Through you, Mayor Guthrie to Councillor Claesden.

2:01:49I'm not aware if it has come out within the window

2:01:52from the beginning of this month until now.

2:01:55What I would say is that the comparator list

2:01:58is a best case scenario in terms of evaluating

2:02:02who we would ultimately compare with

2:02:04in terms of compensation remuneration.

2:02:06The challenge with it is that there really is no

2:02:09simple apples to apples comparison for all municipalities.

2:02:12Some are, and we sort of outlined that

2:02:14to a certain degree in the report.

2:02:15Some are upper tier and lower tier structures

2:02:18where members of council at the lower tier

2:02:20will also sit at the upper tier

2:02:22and they will be compensated as part of that.

2:02:24In some municipalities, the whole of the lower tier council

2:02:27sits at the upper tier.

2:02:30Brampton's in there and that's an example

2:02:32of that arrangement for Brampton,

2:02:34whereas that's not always the case in other comparators

2:02:36in for example, Halton region or Waterloo region.

2:02:39And so the chart is our best attempt

2:02:42to sort of peg a set of comparators,

2:02:45but it is not as clean and simple as a straight apples

2:02:48to apples comparison.

2:02:49The other comparisons we have would be single tiers,

2:02:52but those single tiers, for example,

2:02:54like a Kingston, like a Berry, like other municipalities,

2:02:59they may be quite larger.

2:03:00So you think about the Hamilton's,

2:03:01the London's of the world, and others might not have

2:03:06the same division of services that they have

2:03:08with neighboring county level governments in that regard.

2:03:13And so again, complicates a simplistic apples

2:03:17to apples comparison.

2:03:23Okay, thank you and thank you for the response.

2:03:26It does help quite a bit.

2:03:29So I appreciate my council colleague,

2:03:34Councillor Allt, talking about the governance

2:03:37and the history as well of how this came to be

2:03:40and the recommendation as it lies on the floor

2:03:42is based on what the previous council asked you to do.

2:03:48And so as I'm sitting here making a decision,

2:03:52and I think a number, I think Mayor Gathory,

2:03:57you alluded to, we're making this decision

2:03:59for the future council.

2:04:02And in the article as well with the City of Waterloo,

2:04:04they're also grounded in this,

2:04:06we're making a decision for the future council,

2:04:08not for ourselves, but for the future council.

2:04:11And so when I ground myself in that information,

2:04:14as well as the report and the governance structure

2:04:19that brought us here, I think that it is in our best interest

2:04:25to approve the increase as it's outlined in the report.

2:04:30So I can't support number one.

2:04:33A negotiation seems out of turn.

2:04:36I do appreciate this sentiment so much.

2:04:39I think that, I see where you're coming from, Mr. Mayor,

2:04:43of trying to meet halfway, but I think that in this case,

2:04:48I've got to kind of look at the past,

2:04:50look at the future and where we're going.

2:04:52And so for me, I won't be supporting number one.

2:04:55I would suggest that if it fails,

2:04:57if there's some minds that are getting changed,

2:05:01that we go back to the staff recommendation

2:05:04and we think about the future council.

2:05:08I think that Councillor Katelyn and myself

2:05:10have both in the previous meeting talked about

2:05:14what kind of folks that we would like to see

2:05:17around the horseshoe, whether we want diversity,

2:05:20we want people who are different from ourselves,

2:05:23who voices that might not be here around the table

2:05:25that we're not necessarily hearing from.

2:05:28And so I think that following the staff recommendation

2:05:32at this time, which is again,

2:05:33is from previous council decisions to get here,

2:05:37is the best advice.

2:05:39And I will not be supporting number one,

2:05:43but at the same time, I will be supporting number two,

2:05:45because I actually think that is a full governance review

2:05:49of the council position and the discussion

2:05:52of what the role is.

2:05:54It isn't, from my perspective,

2:05:56it is not the same as a full-time or part-time job.

2:06:01Being a city councillor is a role.

2:06:03And I think that looking at it holistically as a role

2:06:06in a few years and the boundaries of which

2:06:09that one person or two people serve

2:06:11is really the right way to make that next step.

2:06:15And in that case, it might change again.

2:06:18So at this time, I won't be supporting number one

2:06:22or unfortunately, sort of halfway measure.

2:06:27All right, thank you.

2:06:28I think I had Gibson.

2:06:30And did you, I forget, Guller,

2:06:32did you have your hand up too?

2:06:34Yep, okay.

2:06:35Either one.

2:06:37Thank you, Your Worship.

2:06:38And thank you to my council colleagues and to the discussion.

2:06:43I wanted to, just as part of the conversation,

2:06:47raise the rationale of why it first brought

2:06:49the different motion not to accept that increase.

2:06:54I think that the previous term of council made a mistake

2:06:58when we said that we should look at the comparator

2:07:00municipalities to set the wages for councillors.

2:07:06I think it makes total sense for our non-unitized employees

2:07:09that we're competing with GTA municipalities

2:07:12for the salaries or managers, general managers.

2:07:16I think that makes sense.

2:07:17But when we look at those, the report adds up

2:07:22the single tier and the lower tier and the upper tier salaries

2:07:26and combines them.

2:07:28And I think that makes,

2:07:31that does not give us a good reference point.

2:07:33If I look at the single tier municipalities

2:07:36like London, Windsor, Berry, Kingston,

2:07:41we are actually, if we look at those few

2:07:43that are in that range of population closer to us,

2:07:47we are at about the 55th percentile

2:07:49if not a little bit higher.

2:07:51But the problem with that is that I'm pulling,

2:07:54picking, cherry picking as they say, those municipalities.

2:07:57So I don't feel good about that process.

2:08:01That's why I supported the second motion

2:08:02that directs us to go back and do a review.

2:08:06I do understand the points raised by Councillor Klassen

2:08:09and Councillor Caton about wanting to have

2:08:11a more diverse councillor council

2:08:15with people from different economic situations.

2:08:20But I mean, as councillor Altsed,

2:08:22we should do that in a thoughtful manner

2:08:26where we give direction to have that

2:08:28as the stated intention of the policy

2:08:31that we wanna have that.

2:08:32I think unfortunately the current policy

2:08:34doesn't look at those issues of equality

2:08:39or of wanting to have a more diverse council makeup

2:08:43at the next term.

2:08:44I think it just picks a number based on

2:08:46the compared to municipalities that is not appropriate.

2:08:50So I will be supporting the motions on the floor.

2:08:53But I do look forward to having a review

2:08:56at the next term of council,

2:08:57whoever sitting on council at that time.

2:09:00Yeah, just thank you.

2:09:03Thank you and Gibson.

2:09:04And then I'll go to Caiton after that.

2:09:07And I'm sorry if I've started something here.

2:09:10No, thank you.

2:09:10And then to Karan.

2:09:13So many thoughts through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:09:16I'm just gonna try and go from piece to piece

2:09:17as I picked up the different arguments.

2:09:20The salary increases not zero.

2:09:22It's connected to the new me,

2:09:24renumerate renumerate every year.

2:09:26So our salary is not frozen.

2:09:28That's the way to make that very clear.

2:09:29The council salaries are not frozen.

2:09:31They're linked to the new me,

2:09:32remuneration every single year.

2:09:34So our salaries are increasing every single year.

2:09:38That's one.

2:09:39The second one, the idea of more money equals more diversity.

2:09:44I just don't understand that the last municipal election

2:09:48that I have, I looked at the slate of candidates

2:09:50across the city and it was an incredibly diverse

2:09:52slate of candidates and it was all for the same money.

2:09:54So the idea of just offering more money equals more diversity

2:09:58of where people are coming from,

2:10:00their lived experience,

2:10:01like all their different backgrounds and diversity,

2:10:03that doesn't compute to me if you look at the race

2:10:06that we had in Ward One.

2:10:07It was probably the most diverse slate of candidates

2:10:10across the city.

2:10:10So I don't really buy that argument either.

2:10:13The third one, going back to, I have four points.

2:10:17So I'm on my third, I'm gonna get to my fourth.

2:10:19Going back to the citizens committee

2:10:21that was struck last term,

2:10:23I think we only tell half the story.

2:10:25Like we say, we turn down the race

2:10:27that they insisted that council should be getting.

2:10:28We turn down the race.

2:10:29The citizens committee also said,

2:10:31reduce the number of counselors to eight

2:10:32and double their pay.

2:10:34So get them paid $80,000 and reduce them to eight.

2:10:38And this council said, we don't wanna reduce the council.

2:10:41We don't wanna reduce the council.

2:10:42We listen to the public.

2:10:43They said, don't reduce the council.

2:10:45And so obviously we shouldn't be increasing our pay by 100%.

2:10:49So logically we're not gonna listen to the citizens committee

2:10:52on the number of counselors.

2:10:53So we can't listen to them on the remuneration.

2:10:56So council settled on something in the middle,

2:10:58which is fair.

2:11:00So then we turned it into staff and said,

2:11:03staff, you look into it.

2:11:04And I think councillor Goller makes good points.

2:11:06I don't think council as a whole is underpaid.

2:11:09I don't think we're overpaid.

2:11:09I don't think we're underpaid.

2:11:10I think we're paid probably the right amount

2:11:12for what a public servant first should be considered.

2:11:17My fourth point, and it just dawned on me after the,

2:11:20I should have raised it at community of the whole.

2:11:23We all sit around the horseshoe council respectfully.

2:11:25We all sit around the horseshoe at the beginning

2:11:27of our term and we delegate roles.

2:11:29We delegate outside board roles.

2:11:31We delegate chairs and vice chair roles.

2:11:36And I sat here at the beginning of this term

2:11:37and I wasn't offered a chair role.

2:11:39I'm not pitying myself.

2:11:41I went home that night though,

2:11:42and my comment to my wife was,

2:11:43I hope council understands that they just loaded

2:11:46each other up really big on some of these roles.

2:11:49Like some people were given three roles, right?

2:11:52Others were given none to say now

2:11:54that some councils do it all and others don't.

2:11:57That's a council problem.

2:11:59That's not an individual problem.

2:12:01So to say, oh, I'm working too hard for the money.

2:12:05I'm, go back to the first month of our council

2:12:08when we were giving out chair,

2:12:09vice chair outside board roles.

2:12:11That's the opportunity for council to share the load.

2:12:13That's a comment, right?

2:12:15My last comment.

2:12:18We used to reward, we used to pay chairs of committees more.

2:12:25Back in 16, we had a night where we all gave each other roles.

2:12:32We gave chair roles, vice chair roles,

2:12:34outside board roles and it was a big move.

2:12:35And a few months later,

2:12:37maybe some councilors who were still here came forward

2:12:39and said, we used to pay chairs, I think $800,

2:12:43it might be $1,000 in today's money,

2:12:44more for chairing a committee.

2:12:47That was the reward for doing that extra work.

2:12:50And the police board was $5,000 more

2:12:53than the police board.

2:12:55Those were rewards for doing the extra work

2:12:57and council at the time introduced a motion

2:13:00to take it all away.

2:13:01So these are kind of self-inflicted wounds here.

2:13:04I'm happy to revisit, again,

2:13:07I'm happy to do a vote on revisiting

2:13:10what a chair should earn doing the extra work next term,

2:13:14then what a person who's not a chair.

2:13:16So if it's $1,000 more a year

2:13:18because they're doing the chair role,

2:13:20I think that's all within the realm of fair,

2:13:22but to act like we are not listening or listening,

2:13:26we make independent decisions all the time

2:13:29that don't align with what the citizens committees have said.

2:13:33We are paid, we are increasing our salaries

2:13:37as we are increasing newbies.

2:13:39So I struggle with the whole conversation.

2:13:43There's so many different ramifications

2:13:46and impacts and feed-in points that have led us to now.

2:13:49We've made a decision as a council,

2:13:51today we ratified that decision

2:13:52and that's what I'm gonna stand by.

2:13:54If council wants to introduce ideas about rewarding chairs

2:13:57for the extra work they do, I'm happy to do that.

2:14:00But that was council's decision to take it away.

2:14:03So that's where I'm at with this discussion.

2:14:06I'm happy with the decision of committee

2:14:07and I'm happy to ratify it today.

2:14:11Thank you, Kate and then my last is Pusa Till, okay.

2:14:17Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:14:20So diversity is more than just ethnicity.

2:14:23Diversity includes people who are not partnered,

2:14:28people who are single parents, people with disabilities.

2:14:32There's economic background,

2:14:35there's a lot more than just what someone looks like

2:14:39in terms of diversity.

2:14:41And I participated in the AMO project

2:14:46where we talked about how to get more people into council.

2:14:53Council is a certain amount of hours in meetings

2:14:58a lot more during the daytime than we had before.

2:15:01But it's also every time you step out of your house

2:15:04you're a counselor.

2:15:05Every time you go anywhere you're a counselor.

2:15:08I've had constant conversations every time

2:15:11I've been outside of a meeting.

2:15:13It is a nonstop job if you do the job.

2:15:17If we want people to be able to attend all the meetings

2:15:20we have to be able to pay them

2:15:21so that they can afford to have either only a part-time job

2:15:27or use this as their full-time job.

2:15:31I don't think given our current economy

2:15:33that's especially not with the benefits packages

2:15:36that we have at council.

2:15:38If you rely on that and those are your sole sources

2:15:42that it is not equitable.

2:15:45It is not something that is doable by people

2:15:48who do not have economic privilege

2:15:51or partner to support them.

2:15:54That's what I mean by diversity.

2:15:59And I think that the second motion that I had moved

2:16:04at the beginning of the meeting in Cal

2:16:09accounts for looking into that.

2:16:11And this term of council did not vote against

2:16:14this being a full-time position.

2:16:16That was the last term of council.

2:16:19None of that ever came to us.

2:16:21And that's fine.

2:16:22What is on the table is what I think is a well-considered

2:16:27review of the comparator municipalities put forward

2:16:30by staff.

2:16:32And I personally am not gonna be supporting

2:16:37the first motion.

2:16:39I will be supporting the second one.

2:16:41And I really look forward to seeing what staff come up with.

2:16:46If the second motion passes next term to see

2:16:50what would actually be a good composition of council

2:16:55and a good renumeration.

2:16:57Because I think that currently we are in a position

2:17:01where it's just not feasible economically

2:17:06unless you have financial privilege.

2:17:09Thanks.

2:17:11Okay. Thank you.

2:17:16Lucita.

2:17:21Thank you. And through the mayor, two things.

2:17:23I would agree with Councillor Keaton about equity of access

2:17:27and equity of opportunity to participate.

2:17:30And I would hope that in the second motion

2:17:33that as the staff are reviewing this,

2:17:36they also have that corporate equity lens to this process.

2:17:42And just a comment and thanks to Councillor Gibson

2:17:46because I know I did raise with HR about the roles

2:17:51and compensation for police or GRCA

2:17:53and some of those other things.

2:17:55And so I know in other organizations, they do that.

2:17:58And then you can choose to say, I wanna take that on.

2:18:01I love GRCA or I volunteer to do that.

2:18:07So I appreciate that.

2:18:08I wasn't aware about 2016,

2:18:10but thank you.

2:18:15Okay. That was it.

2:18:17Councillor Kerr-Ron, I think over to you.

2:18:20Thank you.

2:18:22Yes. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

2:18:23I'm absorbing all of the comments that I'm hearing

2:18:26from both our delegation, Councillor Goller,

2:18:28Councillor Gibson have made excellent points.

2:18:29Councillor Keaton, the reality of attracting new councillors.

2:18:35Part of that reflection is we would not be struggling

2:18:38with this if we were determining the compensation

2:18:41of say an IT analyst or an administrative position

2:18:45or a snow operator, we would be compensating

2:18:47based on the job description, the hours, the skills.

2:18:53We have best practices in HR and I'm not an HR specialist

2:18:57is that there's these matrix and templates and systems

2:19:02that evaluate a job and appropriate compensation

2:19:05for that job.

2:19:07And we're very reluctant.

2:19:08So yes, it is a difficult conversation

2:19:10for appropriate reasons because affordability

2:19:13in our community and austerity is something

2:19:15that we talk about here at council.

2:19:17Every single council meeting we talk about efficiencies

2:19:20and reigning in costs and affordability for a taxpayer.

2:19:23So how do we balance that?

2:19:25So I think that I think the first thing we need to do

2:19:27based on all the conversations that I'm hearing

2:19:31and conversations in the community,

2:19:32because I've heard both sides.

2:19:34I've heard, yeah, council is not adequately compensated.

2:19:36You guys should be approving the recommendation

2:19:38and I'm hearing a whole lot of our city just can't afford it.

2:19:42I didn't get a raise like that last year.

2:19:44Why should council?

2:19:46And we're all hearing those conversations.

2:19:48So in terms of motions on the floor,

2:19:52I think the first step is if we're all comfortable

2:19:55with the mayor salary, recommendation number one,

2:19:58I do have an amendment and the amendment is just to remove,

2:20:04well, to make it singular that the salary

2:20:06for the position of mayor be maintained

2:20:09and strike out city councillor,

2:20:11that would be the first amendment

2:20:13and that way we don't have to fail that

2:20:15in order to then table another recommendation

2:20:18just for the mayor position.

2:20:20So is that okay?

2:20:21Yeah, can we go one at a time then?

2:20:22Sure.

2:20:23It's already been asked to have it separated anyways.

2:20:25True.

2:20:25Can I just go one at a time here

2:20:27and we'll do the amendment vote right now?

2:20:29Yeah, because if we fail the whole thing,

2:20:31we still have to put something back in about the mayor.

2:20:34So if we just strike city councillor,

2:20:35we'll just do clause one.

2:20:37So moved by councillor Carine

2:20:39for the amendment on number one as described,

2:20:42just to make it only the mayor we're talking about.

2:20:44Can I have a seconder for that?

2:20:46How's her?

2:20:48Okay.

2:20:49I'll call the vote on that one.

2:20:51Is anyone against that?

2:20:54Okay.

2:20:55I'm gonna yell at the names Billings

2:20:57and Richardson and Gawler and Gibson and Chu.

2:21:04Okay, so that passes.

2:21:06Okay.

2:21:06Okay, so number one's been amended.

2:21:08Continue to have the full review.

2:21:09Number two, I don't have any problem with that.

2:21:11I do think it's timely for a review.

2:21:15It is my opinion that the complexity of the job

2:21:18has changed not just in the last three years,

2:21:21the last two terms, three terms,

2:21:25that the job needs a full review

2:21:27and that the committee that did it one full term ago,

2:21:31so that would have been about five years ago,

2:21:33things have changed since then

2:21:35and I do think it's timely for another review,

2:21:37so I would support clause number two.

2:21:40Number two, I could just call the vote as is then.

2:21:42Unless there's other members of council

2:21:43who wanna talk about number two.

2:21:46Okay, is it okay if I go one at a time then?

2:21:48Sure, you're the chair.

2:21:49I'll come back to you.

2:21:50Okay, so just questions or comments on number two.

2:21:54Yep, thank you through Mr. Mayor.

2:21:56I'll vote against this one.

2:21:58I feel like we're doing that review right now,

2:22:00quite frankly, with the salary revisiting.

2:22:04But the rate of growth that our city has seen

2:22:08in the last two years, I don't really see a need

2:22:10to revisit a costly study on whether or not

2:22:13we need to change the ward boundaries again in 26 to 2030,

2:22:16so I know there's a clause in there that says

2:22:17we'll revisit in 28, but I'm just happy to vote against it now.

2:22:20Okay, fair enough.

2:22:22And thank you for raising that it is subject to.

2:22:24So on number two only, go ahead.

2:22:27Yeah, on number two, and I appreciate that.

2:22:30I don't think we're negotiating that here

2:22:32because one of the things Councillor Goller raised

2:22:35is that we have a policy gap somewhere.

2:22:40Our apples to apples comparators, we're not comfortable

2:22:43because some are regional, some are two tier,

2:22:45some are single tier.

2:22:46And so the policy review in my mind also looks

2:22:49at establishing some apples to apples comparators.

2:22:53And the other thing that we haven't done

2:22:55is we haven't been using that 55th percentile.

2:22:57So we have a policy that says once we've determined

2:23:01what the number is, it's a mathematical formula

2:23:03and our DCAO, O'Brien could maybe comment here,

2:23:07but staff just applied the math on this report.

2:23:10And they took the comparators that were available

2:23:14and they did the math at the 55th percentile.

2:23:17So if we're saying that we're not comfortable

2:23:18with the comparators and we're not comfortable

2:23:20with the 55th percentile, maybe it's the 50th percentile,

2:23:24maybe it's a different group of comparators,

2:23:26but this review in my mind is gonna get us

2:23:29the policy work that needs to be done

2:23:31so that when we do have to make this decision,

2:23:33we can just follow policy.

2:23:35We don't have to get into political discussions,

2:23:38we can just follow policy.

2:23:41So thank you.

2:23:42So I'll call the vote on number.

2:23:45Go ahead, sir.

2:23:46Through you, Mr. Mayor.

2:23:47And I just think to make sure before this vote is called,

2:23:49it may be simpler to vote on number one as amended

2:23:53just so we don't have that amended motion

2:23:55floating out there before we move on.

2:23:57Thank you.

2:23:58So before we go to number two,

2:24:00it's already been moved already.

2:24:02Originally, we'll just vote on number one as amended,

2:24:06which means it's just the mayor.

2:24:08Sorry.

2:24:08Okay, yep.

2:24:09Go ahead, Councillor Kipter.

2:24:12Where would that leave us on if clause three fails

2:24:16to clerks?

2:24:17Because then we'd have no direction for anything.

2:24:20So don't we have to pass clause three

2:24:23before we pass clause one?

2:24:25Simply because right now it would leave no instruction.

2:24:29Well, I can see there's a motion.

2:24:30There's a motion on the screen that's coming up.

2:24:32Yeah.

2:24:33So like clerks.

2:24:34We know what's coming.

2:24:36Through you, Mr. Mayor to Councillor Gibson.

2:24:38Yeah, so if number one is voted on

2:24:40and that amendment is confirmed,

2:24:41councillor is removed,

2:24:43regardless of what happens with number two,

2:24:45there has been no salary set for city council

2:24:47and that would need to be determined.

2:24:49Whether it's the motion three as proposed,

2:24:51that was on the screen or something else,

2:24:53council would need to fill that space.

2:24:58Okay, just I pardon, if you don't mind, Mr. Mayor,

2:25:00I just kind of feel like I'm being backed

2:25:02into a corner here on a vote.

2:25:04Like what's going to say nothing

2:25:05on what council is going to be paid.

2:25:07So we're going to have to make,

2:25:08we're going to have to set new direction,

2:25:10which again has already been splashed on the screen.

2:25:14But that might not pass.

2:25:16And then someone could table a motion

2:25:17to revert right back to the same.

2:25:19It means that you have a separate motion

2:25:21that talks about the councillor part.

2:25:22Respectfully, based on the amendment vote,

2:25:24we kind of know where this is going.

2:25:27We don't know until the vote's called.

2:25:28So let's, okay, let's just wait.

2:25:32I'm going to call the vote on number one as amended.

2:25:36Anyone against, please raise your hand.

2:25:39Okay, so we have Gibson and Chu and Richardson and Billings.

2:25:45Okay, so number one, Mayor is set.

2:25:49Whoever that is, all the best to you.

2:25:51Okay.

2:25:53No, I was, you are, okay.

2:25:56I can understand if you were confused there.

2:25:57So clerks, did you also grab Gawler as against?

2:26:00It still passes, but Gawler has been tabled or minuted.

2:26:04Okay, that's been captured, Councillor Goller.

2:26:07Okay.

2:26:09We're on number two, which is as is.

2:26:13Okay, I'm going to call the vote on that.

2:26:15Is anyone against that?

2:26:17Just Gibson.

2:26:19Okay, so that passes.

2:26:21Now we have a new motion that will be tabled.

2:26:24Councillor Kerrion, go ahead.

2:26:30Was I on the speaker's list for that or?

2:26:33Or I still have the floor?

2:26:35Okay, okay.

2:26:38Yeah, so I've really struggled this.

2:26:40I actually went in today thinking I would just vote

2:26:43for all the motions from Committee of the Whole.

2:26:46And I've been listening to my colleagues,

2:26:48to the delegates, the public since then.

2:26:50And I do believe that the rule has changed

2:26:54and that the status quo is not the appropriate level.

2:26:59And I do take some exception to Councillor Gibson's comment

2:27:04that this is being backed into a corner,

2:27:07because we could retable Clause One

2:27:11with the word city councillor and pass that.

2:27:14That's an appropriate motion if this one fails.

2:27:17But I do think the complexity, the time,

2:27:19the number of meetings in the last three years has changed

2:27:25and that some change to compensation for that rule

2:27:28would be appropriate best practice,

2:27:31decoupling it with this council.

2:27:34This is for the next council

2:27:35and we continually have to remind ourselves of that.

2:27:38So I'm going to suggest, I think it works out to vote 4.8%

2:27:44to reset the base at 55K for the 2026 to 2030.

2:27:50That is a modest increase that accounts

2:27:52for the change in complexity

2:27:54over the last few years of this job.

2:27:57And as well below, it is 20% of what the recommendation

2:28:01from, if we remember 33% was the recommendation,

2:28:05I believe 55K is 4.8% increase,

2:28:10which I think is appropriate.

2:28:11So I have a-

2:28:12So I want to second that?

2:28:13I have a motion that I've sent to clerks to that effect.

2:28:17We'll see if there's a seconder

2:28:18once it comes up on the screen.

2:28:21And if there isn't, I would encourage my fellow councilors

2:28:25to table something else.

2:28:26Okay.

2:28:27The downer said that she would second that.

2:28:29Okay. So speaking only to the amendment, Gibson.

2:28:33Thank you.

2:28:34To staff.

2:28:36The base salary for city councillor

2:28:38at the beginning of this term was $50,000.

2:28:43Correct?

2:28:44Maybe I'll-

2:28:47Through you, Mr. Mayor, I'd have to go back and check.

2:28:48I don't have that number exactly,

2:28:50but that sounds like it's in the-

2:28:51So with the new me increases

2:28:55that this council has also received since that time,

2:29:00what is the current council salary remuneration

2:29:04that we are all receiving at the moment?

2:29:07Is it-

2:29:08The current, through you, Mr. Mayor,

2:29:09the current compensation for members of council

2:29:12as of January this year,

2:29:14when the most recent economic increase was implied

2:29:16is $52,856.

2:29:19Thanks.

2:29:19$52.

2:29:20Councillor Gallagher's just shown that to me.

2:29:23So for all of this,

2:29:25and I'm assuming that there will be another remuneration

2:29:28next year, so council will be comfortably

2:29:30in the 53,500 range.

2:29:35This is about $1,500.

2:29:38Councillor Caron?

2:29:40This is about $1,500.

2:29:41That's about it.

2:29:42And actually I just recalculated it.

2:29:44It's about 4%.

2:29:49It's been moved in second.

2:29:50So yeah.

2:29:52Okay.

2:29:53It's a lot of time.

2:29:54Okay.

2:29:55Okay. It's been moved and seconded.

2:29:56We don't have to spend any more time on this

2:29:58after I call the vote.

2:29:59So, right?

2:30:00Yes, to the clerks.

2:30:02Through you, Mr. Mayor, I just want to clarify.

2:30:04What we're looking at right now is not an amendment.

2:30:06Number one and two removed, one was amended.

2:30:08This is a net new resolution.

2:30:10I've just heard the word amendment used a couple of times

2:30:12and wanted to clarify.

2:30:12No, this is a standalone.

2:30:14Yep.

2:30:14And speaking to this, I'll alt please.

2:30:19Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

2:30:21With the utmost respect to both you

2:30:23and to the move of this motion,

2:30:25I cannot support the motion,

2:30:27despite the fact that I believe that the arguments made

2:30:31for an appropriate remuneration for counselors

2:30:34has been well made.

2:30:36This motion, I think, is made with poor governance considered.

2:30:44I understand where it's coming from.

2:30:45I have no issue with that,

2:30:47but it is in my mind,

2:30:50it is just a number that has been pulled out of thin air.

2:30:53And consequently, it has been given very little consideration

2:30:58about a half an hour, actually.

2:31:00This is something that probably should go away

2:31:03to a perhaps a governance committee to determine

2:31:06and then come back to council for us to determine

2:31:08whether it's the appropriate number

2:31:10or whether there's some other number.

2:31:12The only thing I can support is a referral.

2:31:17Okay, would you like to move a referral then on that?

2:31:20I'm just trying to understand what you wanted.

2:31:22So moved.

2:31:23Referral to governance,

2:31:25to report back to the next meeting of council.

2:31:30Okay, hold on a second.

2:31:32This topic usually comes back through corporate services

2:31:39Okay.

2:31:40Under Chair Caron.

2:31:42So would you be okay if your referral said

2:31:47to go back through the corporate services channel?

2:31:51I'd be quite happy with that.

2:31:52I only said governance

2:31:53because that committee of the chairs has all.

2:31:57Okay.

2:31:57And then are you willing to second that, Councillor Caron?

2:32:04You can amend a referral, but I need a seconder first.

2:32:08I second.

2:32:08Okay, Councillor Caron will second the referral.

2:32:11Fine.

2:32:12And then now speaking only to the referral,

2:32:15you wanted to ask a question or amend?

2:32:17Yeah, it's a comment and an amendment.

2:32:20I absolutely agree with Councillor All.

2:32:22This was on the fly and it's not coming from staff advice.

2:32:26It's coming out of nowhere because what we had

2:32:28on the floor today was zero

2:32:30and I wasn't comfortable with zero.

2:32:32And I'm not comfortable with the staff recommendation

2:32:33at 33% trying to come up with a compromise here.

2:32:38But there's no basis and data behind it.

2:32:41So a referral, I absolutely agree

2:32:43and we'll vote in favor of the referral.

2:32:45My amendment is that it come back to committee the whole

2:32:47and here's why nominations open.

2:32:50And again, I'm looking to our DCIO

2:32:55and former city clerk nominations open May 1st.

2:33:00I don't believe that corporate services

2:33:01coming back until April and all of the information

2:33:05about the role is being put out there now.

2:33:09I think we're cutting it too close

2:33:11if we come back in April.

2:33:12So the next committee the whole.

2:33:13So I'm looking at the DCIO to see if this could come back

2:33:17to the next committee the whole in March

2:33:21or is that too quick a turnaround?

2:33:23So through you Mayor Guthrie March,

2:33:26the committee whole cycle in March is quite frankly tight.

2:33:29It really is council's prerogative

2:33:31which body you refer this work to.

2:33:33We could report back perhaps to the March council meeting.

2:33:37It could alternatively go to an April cycle.

2:33:40Although the April cycle and I'd have to reference back

2:33:43may or may not be a corporate services cycle

2:33:45for you Chair Caron.

2:33:46We could still land that item at the April cycle.

2:33:49Again then it would be decided upon at the end of April.

2:33:53So I would suggest it's either the April cycle,

2:33:56acknowledge that that means a decision

2:33:58is then occurring at the end of April

2:34:00or you refer it directly to council in March

2:34:03which would then allow a degree of public awareness

2:34:07for the city clerk's office to be able to include

2:34:08this kind of material in the nomination information.

2:34:11Great, thank you for that.

2:34:12And I do think if it comes back at the end of April

2:34:15that gives you about a week to turn around

2:34:17and all the nomination information

2:34:20on websites and packages.

2:34:23Mr. Chair, you are officially the chair

2:34:25so if it could come to March council,

2:34:27I leave that to you but I would support the referral

2:34:30to council.

2:34:32Yeah, so you can either make an amendment now

2:34:35to that referral or I could just ask the mover

2:34:37of the referral and yourself to remove it if you don't mind

2:34:41and then councillor all can retable the referral

2:34:45to the March council meeting

2:34:47and then that way it's a little bit cleaner.

2:34:49I'll leave that in the hands of councillor all.

2:34:51Councillor all, are you okay with that?

2:34:53I am quite fine with it.

2:34:54This is how we design a camel.

2:34:56Thank you very much.

2:34:57Okay, and then I have to do this whole rigmarole.

2:35:00Are you okay with removing your seconder?

2:35:02Is everyone okay with that?

2:35:04Yes, council's okay with that.

2:35:06Going back to councillor all now,

2:35:08councillor all this tabling referral on this matter

2:35:12to the council meeting of March.

2:35:17Okay, you are seconding that councillor Caron.

2:35:19You okay clerks?

2:35:21No, you're not.

2:35:22Go ahead, go ahead.

2:35:23You Mr. Mayor, sorry for the multiple interruptions.

2:35:26I want to make sure I'm understanding the intention

2:35:28of the referral motions one and two have been voted on.

2:35:31Those are decisions of council.

2:35:32So those would not be coming back.

2:35:34What would be being referred is the new motion number three

2:35:37that's on the floor.

2:35:38No additional reporting.

2:35:40You've got that motion three sometime to consider it

2:35:42between now and it comes back in March.

2:35:45Yeah, I think if you don't mind,

2:35:46I think your brain and my brain were aligned there.

2:35:49I was going to ask on behalf of those that are referring it,

2:35:53can we just have an acknowledgement or a correction

2:35:57from our senior staff that would be involved

2:36:00in at least the discussion between now

2:36:03and council meeting of March

2:36:05where there can at least be,

2:36:09like is there more conversations that we could have with you

2:36:12or a secondary memo update that could be attached

2:36:17to the council meeting in March

2:36:19because as it stands right now,

2:36:21it means that no staff work could be done on this at all.

2:36:24No memo would be included.

2:36:26It would just be flying the existing referral,

2:36:30or sorry, a motion that's on the floor

2:36:33and it just gets plopped on the March agenda.

2:36:36That's it.

2:36:37It means nothing to validate

2:36:42or not validate anything that's there.

2:36:44It just means we're making the decision at a different time.

2:36:48That's all we're doing.

2:36:49So I just wanted to see if there's an opportunity

2:36:51for our senior staff to work with,

2:36:55let's say the chair of corporate services as an example,

2:37:01to be able to have something come on the agenda

2:37:04for March council meeting based on this referral,

2:37:08if there's any more information

2:37:10that could come at that time.

2:37:13So I'm trying to pressure you,

2:37:15but if there's nothing more to add to this,

2:37:18then all we're doing is just pushing a decision from today

2:37:20to the end of March with no new information.

2:37:23And to you, Mr. Mayor, you've nailed it on the head

2:37:26in terms of the procedural process of a referral.

2:37:28So it would be just lifting what is there now

2:37:30and putting it at the end of the month in March.

2:37:32If you'd like to direct staff at this moment,

2:37:35I would just caution about the level of work

2:37:38or the level of information you might want.

2:37:41We would want to have that as a degree of a direction

2:37:43in that because then that would allow us

2:37:46to then land this referral.

2:37:47That would simply land on the March agenda as is,

2:37:51but we could tag to that with your direction,

2:37:53with council's direction, some additional information.

2:37:56Again, I think in the time considered,

2:37:58it's going to need to be light touch work.

2:38:01We may, for example, apply a different percentage line

2:38:05to the benchmark municipalities that we have.

2:38:10We could perhaps even simply compare the amount

2:38:13that's expressed, the $60,000,

2:38:16and offer a bit of analysis about where that would land you

2:38:20in terms of the comparators as well.

2:38:21So it can't be a deep dive given the time we have,

2:38:25but direction, if you're looking for more details,

2:38:28direction would be needed.

2:38:29Otherwise it will simply land as a simple referral.

2:38:35Councillor Kerron, would you be okay

2:38:37maybe making an amendment to the referral?

2:38:41So the referral stands as it is, but status sentence

2:38:45at the end that says, and that staff work with the chair

2:38:49of corporate services to determine an updated memo

2:38:53of considerations for this meeting.

2:38:57Something like that, and then that way,

2:38:59there's something of a memo, a one pager,

2:39:01that could come with other options and other clarity.

2:39:04Because if we don't do that, then we're just kicking

2:39:07the can of this decision today to end a march

2:39:09with nothing, no information.

2:39:11I appreciate that.

2:39:12It is Councillor Allt's motion, so I don't know if that's a...

2:39:14No, but not for an amendment.

2:39:15Oh, for an amendment, yeah.

2:39:19Okay, well, I kind of just wordsmithed it there.

2:39:21Just went, yeah, for sure I see you guys.

2:39:24So I need a seconder for that.

2:39:27Okay, Councillor Allt will do that.

2:39:28So I'm gonna, I'm sorry, I don't mean to do the wording

2:39:31on the fly, but it was an additional sort of sentence

2:39:34on the referral that says, and that staff be directed

2:39:38to work in concert with the chair of corporate services

2:39:43for an updated memo of options to be considered.

2:39:48Is that okay?

2:39:49Through you, Mr. Mayor, that's captured

2:39:51as an amendment to the referral.

2:39:53Correct, so I need to call the vote

2:39:55on just the amendment to the referral right now.

2:39:59And I'm gonna do that if you don't mind, everybody.

2:40:01Okay, thank you.

2:40:02Is anyone against just the amendment

2:40:04of that one added sentence?

2:40:05I don't want to see this motion.

2:40:06Sure.

2:40:13Through you, Mr. Mayor,

2:40:14because these have been given verbally,

2:40:16we'll just need two or three minutes

2:40:17so we can get this written down

2:40:18and displayed on screen for you.

2:42:03So it's just the bolded part and that city staff work

2:42:06with the chair of corporate services

2:42:07to provide additional information

2:42:09through a council memo.

2:42:11That's all it is.

2:42:12I didn't call her on the amendment yet.

2:42:15Your Worship, I feel that I feel really uncomfortable

2:42:20asking staff to justify a rationale

2:42:23for a number that council is pulling from the air.

2:42:26I think if there is a desire to increase or not increase,

2:42:30I think we should just vote on it today.

2:42:32I'm really uncomfortable wasting staff time

2:42:34when we can do the math ourselves

2:42:36so we can look at the list of comparators.

2:42:38Unless we're ready to give staff a different set

2:42:41of comparators or a different set of parameters,

2:42:44we're just going to ask them to do work

2:42:47to justify the number that we're choosing today.

2:42:50So I hope that we do not approve this referral.

2:42:54I don't want to waste staff time

2:42:56unless we actually say,

2:42:57you know what, actually look at the single-tier municipalities

2:43:00with populations between 130,000 and 500,000

2:43:05and then give us the 55% tile

2:43:07of those single-tier municipalities

2:43:10because I think that would make some policy sense.

2:43:14I think just asking them to tell us what is the,

2:43:17you know, how does this fit within the parameters of,

2:43:21I think it's a waste of time.

2:43:23Okay.

2:43:24Thank you.

2:43:25Alton, then Gibson.

2:43:27Actually, I'll let that Councillor Gibson go

2:43:29and I'll do closing remarks if you wouldn't mind, Mr. Mayor.

2:43:34Are you okay with that Gibson?

2:43:35I'm okay with that.

2:43:36All right, go ahead.

2:43:37Thanks.

2:43:40I'm not going to make any comments that I believe are,

2:43:43I'm just going to speak frankly

2:43:45and that this is not personal.

2:43:46I've never liked to go personal.

2:43:49I believe we've done the math

2:43:51on the council renovation for next year.

2:43:53There will already be 53,000 something.

2:43:56Okay.

2:43:57So we're talking about a potential increase of $1,500

2:44:01for the next council.

2:44:05That's pre-tax, post-tax.

2:44:08Some of us, that will mean $700 a year.

2:44:10Some of us, that'll mean $1,000 a year.

2:44:12But we're talking about,

2:44:14we're spending all this time now

2:44:15talking about about $100 a month more

2:44:18for the role of council.

2:44:20Can I present something as an alternative?

2:44:23As a council, can we move a motion today

2:44:26that asks staff to revisit the policy

2:44:30for our chairs of our committees

2:44:34and the additional and the additionality of that work.

2:44:37Back when I first came onto council,

2:44:39it was $800 a year was additional

2:44:42for the role of the chair.

2:44:43I would, as a council, I would much rather

2:44:46revisit a policy that remunerates the members of council

2:44:50who are chairing committees

2:44:52slightly more than the most who aren't.

2:44:54Because that is represented additional work.

2:44:58I'm gonna vote against this referral

2:44:59because I do not believe $1,500 is worth

2:45:01spending all this time on

2:45:03when we could simply just move a motion

2:45:05that says, that staff revisit for the next term of council,

2:45:08that revisit the policy or re-institute a similar policy

2:45:12that looks at supporting those who are functioning as chairs

2:45:16or even as outside board members,

2:45:19an additional bit of salary because it represents more work.

2:45:21That's where I'm at.

2:45:22So I'm gonna vote against the referral.

2:45:24If it's left alone and this referral fails,

2:45:28I am happy to start wordsmithing some language

2:45:31around a motion that looks to reward

2:45:34the members of council who are chairing committees

2:45:36with an additional salary of $1,000 or something like that

2:45:41because it does represent more work.

2:45:43Thank you.

2:45:44Thank you.

2:45:44And then I'll call the vote.

2:45:46Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

2:45:48I wanted you to wait until the end,

2:45:51primarily because I'm gonna try to encapsulate everything

2:45:53we've been discussing.

2:45:55As I said, most fundamentally,

2:45:57this is an issue of governance for me

2:45:59and I don't believe that what we are doing

2:46:00is going to be perfect.

2:46:02What I do think it does is it gives staff the latitude

2:46:06to consider what councillor Caron has brought forward

2:46:09and determine whether that's an appropriate number

2:46:12or they could go back to the initial recommendation

2:46:16and could put that forward

2:46:17or could put forward that what council passed

2:46:21that committee of the whole was appropriate

2:46:22or anything in between.

2:46:24It's still a simple report.

2:46:27It doesn't require tremendous research

2:46:30because the research has already been done.

2:46:33With regards to committee chairs,

2:46:35I would be happy to entertain that afterward,

2:46:37but that is a singular separate motion

2:46:40that should be considered.

2:46:41But this is most fundamentally about

2:46:44what is the appropriate salary

2:46:46to encourage people from all walks of life,

2:46:49whether they're single parents, retirees,

2:46:52whether they're working in Toronto

2:46:54for the government of Ontario, whatever.

2:46:57We need to look at what is appropriate for the community.

2:47:04Okay, I'm gonna call the vote on this amendment.

2:47:11I'd like to really try to wrap this up council.

2:47:13Okay, so I just am gonna ask

2:47:17before I call the vote through to Stephen.

2:47:20Based on what councillor Allt said there

2:47:22in working with the chair of corporate services,

2:47:25would you have that flexibility

2:47:27to be looking at the memo at the end of March

2:47:29that could be not exactly scoped to what the referral is?

2:47:34Like, do you have the leeway of being able to have a memo

2:47:38that talks on what the referral is,

2:47:41but also anything else that you wish to add

2:47:43from a staff perspective in that memo?

2:47:46To you, Mr. Mayor, and to your question,

2:47:49yes, it's, I mean, we'll have to be very narrow

2:47:52in the application of, I mean,

2:47:54I don't wanna begin to hypothesize

2:47:56what some members of council are looking for versus others,

2:47:59but we'll certainly have a discussion with Chair Caron

2:48:02and work through, obviously,

2:48:05what we've heard around the horseshoe today,

2:48:06we'll inform some of that and we'll look to have something back

2:48:09that will at least provide council

2:48:10with a degree of additional information.

2:48:13Okay, thank you.

2:48:14So with that clarity,

2:48:16I know that I can support the referral then.

2:48:18So I'll call the vote then on the amendment,

2:48:22which is the bolded sentence

2:48:24that was added to the referral, okay?

2:48:27So, Councillor Caron.

2:48:31The amendment motion says 4.8, and it's 4.0.

2:48:34That was a typo in my, I sent a correction to clerks.

2:48:37But we're only talking about the amendment,

2:48:38which is the bolder part, not what you just brought up.

2:48:43The bolder part is just the sentence

2:48:44to have the memo and have staff work with you.

2:48:47That's it, that's the chair, okay?

2:48:50I'm gonna call on only on the amendment,

2:48:52is anyone against?

2:48:54Okay, Richardson, Guller, Gibson, Billings.

2:48:59Okay, Chu, okay.

2:49:02You can kick me under the table too if you want.

2:49:05All right, it still passes.

2:49:06Okay, now we're back to the referral as amended.

2:49:09Did you wanna speak to the 4% versus 4.8?

2:49:12Yeah, that was just a typo correction,

2:49:14it should be 4.0, or just 4.

2:49:16It's actually like 3.95, but.

2:49:20It should be accurate.

2:49:25Is that an administrative percentage

2:49:27that could be changed, or do you literally need

2:49:29an amendment to change it?

2:49:30Through you, Mr. Mayor, I have delegated authority

2:49:32to correct minor amendments.

2:49:34I just need to know the number.

2:49:35Is it approximately 4%, is that close enough?

2:49:37What is the number?

2:49:383.95.

2:49:393.95, I think, give or take a few dollars.

2:49:433.95, it is.

2:49:44Okay, thank you.

2:49:45Anything further on the referral

2:49:47before I call the vote?

2:49:47Gibson, just a comment and a commitment.

2:49:50If this fails, I'll introduce a motion

2:49:52that looks to reward the chairs and outside board members.

2:49:55No, I'll wait for the referral, thanks.

2:50:00Okay, I'll call the vote.

2:50:01Is anyone against the referral?

2:50:03Richardson, Guller, Gibson, Chu, Billings.

2:50:10Okay, thank you.

2:50:11That passes.

2:50:13Councillor Gibson, would you like to table a motion?

2:50:16That is included in the Council Compensation

2:50:24composition review, including a review of pay

2:50:27and benefits for elected officials.

2:50:31That staff also be directed to look at compensation

2:50:34for chairs or maybe if I could just ask staff,

2:50:40if the wording, this is the wording in number two,

2:50:43already give permission for staff

2:50:46to consider what you've heard today

2:50:47about the chair role and the compensation.

2:50:50I would almost argue it does,

2:50:51but I need staff to validate it publicly or not.

2:50:55To you, Mr. Mayor, we can certainly include that.

2:50:57There's also other opportunities.

2:50:58We've got a governance review that's landing

2:51:00in the beginning and early part of the term.

2:51:02It's sort of an omnibus kind of package

2:51:04of various governance related policies.

2:51:08If I recall correctly, the removal of the compensation

2:51:11for chairs work, both committee of the whole chairs

2:51:14and outside board appointments

2:51:16was a governance related decision,

2:51:18so it could also come to that.

2:51:19Now that's gonna land not to perfectly align

2:51:23with the start of the new term.

2:51:24That report would land in the early part

2:51:26of the new term of council,

2:51:28but it could inform a retroactive compensation piece.

2:51:34So again, just another food for thought.

2:51:36There are different ventures or different avenues

2:51:39in which this land land.

2:51:40But to land this plane,

2:51:41because I really wanna land it now,

2:51:43all I need to know is does number two,

2:51:46that was already passed,

2:51:47or does the governance review that you just described,

2:51:51is that good enough for you today to know

2:51:53that this topic needs to be discussed

2:51:54in the next term of council,

2:51:55or do you require a motion from Councillor Gibson,

2:51:58giving you that direction right now?

2:52:00To you, Mr. Mayor, yes, it satisfies the motion

2:52:02that you have before you right now, it satisfies.

2:52:04Okay, I'm gonna go back over to Councillor Gibson,

2:52:06because you can either take that as an answer

2:52:09or Councillor Gibson can still move a motion.

2:52:11It's up to you.

2:52:13So oftentimes, so focused on making sure

2:52:15we get the right direction to council, to staff,

2:52:18and then we hear something like,

2:52:19but we can figure that out, we don't need direction.

2:52:22We've just referred a motion to staff

2:52:26about an actual number for compensation for council.

2:52:29We're gonna revisit this conversation next month,

2:52:32or shortly thereafter.

2:52:35I don't feel the pressure to draft a motion right now

2:52:38to have this in wording.

2:52:40I'd like to see how that conversation goes.

2:52:42I've started drafting it quickly.

2:52:44I can work with staff between now and then

2:52:47to let all of council know that this is what I'm thinking,

2:52:49but I don't really, like personally,

2:52:53I don't feel like we should be talking about both.

2:52:55That's just how I feel.

2:52:56I'd rather not fight or talk about a $1,500 raise

2:53:00for all of council.

2:53:01I'd rather talk about individual efforts

2:53:04and individual workloads require more than others.

2:53:07So we can do that, but...

2:53:09And if you don't mind me interrupting,

2:53:11so we can speed this along,

2:53:13you are right in everything that you've just said.

2:53:14I agree with you.

2:53:15And that conversation can happen now

2:53:17at the council meeting in March.

2:53:18That's what I'm thinking.

2:53:19Nothing's actually been set in the screen

2:53:20for anything, so...

2:53:21I'll just wait.

2:53:22Yeah, so you can work on that motion

2:53:24and maybe broaden it or shorten it, whatever you want.

2:53:26Plus you can make the same arguments

2:53:27that you just made right now, which are...

2:53:29I think it's great at the end of March.

2:53:31On a personal level, I think it is a more merited conversation

2:53:34than the one we're having right now about this $1,500.

2:53:36But I will save that conversation for the end of the month

2:53:39when we have that conversation again,

2:53:40depending on where the conversation goes.

2:53:42I'm happy to introduce it.

2:53:44Yeah, that's fine.

2:53:45Okay, I'm gonna wrap this up now.

2:53:47Guller, I'm gonna let you have last word, okay?

2:53:49And then we gotta finish this.

2:53:51Thank you, Worship.

2:53:52I still feel uncomfortable about sending staff back

2:53:54to do work without direction.

2:53:55So I would like to move a further motion

2:53:57I just sent to everyone, just to give some parameters.

2:54:00And it is for staff to consider the remuneration

2:54:06of single-term municipalities in Ontario

2:54:08between 130 and 500,000 as part of the review.

2:54:11So there's something for them to look at

2:54:13that might give them some guidance.

2:54:16I feel that those municipalities that have similar size

2:54:19to 12 and similar workloads being singled here.

2:54:22Okay, let me interrupt so we can focus and move us closer.

2:54:27Number one, you say the mayor pay,

2:54:29but the mayor pay has been settled.

2:54:31Then let's strike that.

2:54:32Okay, number two, is this for the...

2:54:35Are you trying to scope this for the memo

2:54:38that's coming out at the end of the month of March?

2:54:41Or is this a new scoping for the next term?

2:54:43No, it's for March.

2:54:45So that staff have something to go on.

2:54:47I feel uncomfortable sending them to March

2:54:49with no actual direction.

2:54:50Okay, so to the clerks, could you please just delete?

2:54:54You already did the word mayor, thank you.

2:54:57Okay, now I need to find out if there's a seconder.

2:55:01Okay, Billings is seconding this.

2:55:03Guys, I wanna call the vote.

2:55:06Our media missed the picture.

2:55:09Could you put...

2:55:10I'm trying to help you.

2:55:11I'm trying to help you.

2:55:12Could you put that back up on the screen?

2:55:20You're welcome.

2:55:22Okay, I'd like to call the vote on this, please.

2:55:26Okay, all those against, please raise your hand.

2:55:32Guthrie Downer, Boussatil.

2:55:36Okay, okay, that passes.

2:55:38Perfect, thank you.

2:55:41Okay, we're done.

2:55:42We're gonna take a five minute break

2:55:45and then we're gonna come back and talk about water

2:55:48and then we're done.

2:55:51Okay, thank you.

2:55:51Yeah, we gotta go back and closed, but I'm in.

2:55:54Five minute break.

2:55:56So you had 1150.

3:04:37Okay, I'll call the meeting back to order.

3:04:38Thank you for that little break.

3:04:40We have our water and wastewater servicing

3:04:42allocation policy and bylaw with one delegation,

3:04:46Susan Watson, who's gonna join us by telephone, I believe.