Staff consider as-of-right permissions for greater than 3 units per property within the low density residential designation and report back to Council with options and recommendations…

1:17:52walkway continue to not permit parking on it. This walkway is to be 1.5

1:18:00meters from the nearest foundation wall and is intended to provide pedestrian

1:18:04access to the front door of a house. As you can see on the the illustration

1:18:08provided on the slide. This walkway provision does not provide adequate

1:18:13space to park a vehicle and allowing parking in this area would not solve any

1:18:17additional parking needs. Through our review staff are also recommending

1:18:23that opportunities to remove winter on street parking restrictions be

1:18:27investigated through the citywide parking review, which was identified as

1:18:31an action in the transportation master plan. The citywide parking review could

1:18:37establish a policy and regulatory approach to on street parking. It is

1:18:41suggested that this review also consider opportunities for city owned

1:18:45parking lots within neighborhoods. Staff recommend that the current suspension

1:18:49on a on enforcement be extended until the on street parking review is complete.

1:18:55Year round on street parking would provide opportunities to address the

1:18:58parking issue while maintaining our streetscapes, street trees and

1:19:02landscaped areas intended to address stormwater management on site. It would

1:19:06address individual needs that vary over time and from household to household

1:19:11instead of permanently impacting our streetscapes and plant infrastructure

1:19:15throughout the city. Staff have provided alternative options requested by

1:19:19council but are not supportive of these changes to the bylaw. Through

1:19:26consultation with the community and the accessibility advisory committee, we

1:19:29heard the need to ensure individuals using mobility devices are provided with

1:19:34with adequate driveway width. To address this issue, staff have added a

1:19:39definition for accessible vehicle and added as a right permission for an

1:19:43accessible parking space on smaller lots. This regulation allows a type A

1:19:47accessible parking space, which is 3.4 meters wide and has a 1.5 meter access

1:19:52aisle. The intent of this regulation is to accommodate an accessible van with a

1:19:57side lift and to provide pedestrian access with a mobility device to the

1:20:01front door of the house. Parking would not be permitted on the pedestrian

1:20:05access aisle. In our review of other municipal practices, Guelph would be

1:20:10the first to include include this type of accessibility exemption in the zoning

1:20:14bylaw. In response to parking directions provided at the public meeting,

1:20:22staff worked with BA Group to conduct an additional updated parking

1:20:26utilization study late in 2022. Parking studies were conducted for 14

1:20:32multi-residential buildings, the majority of which are within the Gordon

1:20:35Street Intensification Corridor. Six of these sites were studied in 2019 as

1:20:40well, so we could also compare the data from the two studies. Based on the

1:20:46results of the data collected in the 2019 and the 2022 parking studies, staff

1:20:51are not recommending changes to the proposed parking adjustment area within

1:20:55the Gordon Street Intensification Corridor and are not proposing to increase

1:20:59visitor parking rates for apartment and mixed use buildings within the parking

1:21:02adjustment areas. The 2022 parking study conducted by BA Group confirmed that

1:21:10resident and visitor parking demand is not constrained by parking supply at any

1:21:14of the surveyed sites. The parking study also confirmed that parking needs

1:21:19vary based on the geographic area of the city, supporting the geographic

1:21:25approach to parking in the proposed zoning bylaw. Results from the studies

1:21:29sites indicate the lowest utilization rates within intensification areas and

1:21:33increased utilization as you move further away from these areas.

1:21:38BA Group has prepared an updated parking memo included as attachment eight to

1:21:42the staff report, and we also have BA Group with us virtually today to respond

1:21:46to any questions that council may have on the parking study results.

1:21:56Staff also confirmed that accessible parking rates have been updated to align

1:22:00with the AODA requirements. And the proposed zoning bylaw has also been revised

1:22:05to ensure accessible parking spaces are not reduced within our parking

1:22:08adjustment areas. This means the number of accessible parking spaces

1:22:12required for development is consistent across the city.

1:22:21Staff also worked with Grinham Architects and stacked architecture should

1:22:24develop three unit demonstration plans, which are included as attachment 12

1:22:28to the staff report. Plans have been developed for three building types,

1:22:32including triplexes on street townhouses and apartment buildings.

1:22:36These plans take into consideration building code requirements, the proposed

1:22:40zoning regulations, existing neighborhood compatibility and other site plan

1:22:45considerations such as stormwater management, access and accessibility.

1:22:51The plans also provided an opportunity to test out the zoning bylaw regulations

1:22:55and ensure development is feasible on standard residential RL1 and RL2 lot sizes.

1:23:02This document will continue to be available as a guide for prospective

1:23:06developers or builders looking to create three unit buildings in the future.

1:23:13So out of this review, the three unit demonstration plans highlighted some

1:23:17some required revisions to the proposed zoning bylaw.

1:23:20We've added a definition for triplex and we permit a triplex within the RL1

1:23:24and RL2 zones. We've also revised the definition of apartment building to

1:23:29permit secure elevator access directly to dwelling units, which eliminates the

1:23:34need for common areas on each floor.

1:23:37It provides exemptions for visitor, bicycle, electric vehicle and barrier

1:23:42free parking for these developments to make them feasible on smaller lots.

1:23:46And it includes minimum landscaped open space requirements to ensure green

1:23:51space opportunities, green space opportunities for planting trees and

1:23:56obviously managing stormwater on site.

1:24:01And finally, shipping container review.

1:24:05So following the statutory public meeting, we invited the shipping container

1:24:09community to participate in a workshop and review the proposed regulations.

1:24:15Staff also met with business owners and other business owners and were

1:24:19invited to tour industrial and service commercial sites to get a better

1:24:22understanding of how shipping containers are being used within the city.

1:24:26Based on these discussions, we have revised the shipping container regulations.

1:24:32We've added a shipping container definition for clarity.

1:24:37They are permitted as outdoor storage and service commercial, industrial, mixed

1:24:40business, utility and park zones.

1:24:44Permissions have also been added for shipping containers as occasional uses

1:24:48to encourage more innovative uses for a specified period of time.

1:24:53And the overall maximum number of shipping containers per lot has been deleted.

1:24:59We've also deleted the maximum size of shipping containers.

1:25:04Shipping containers are proposed to be regulated as outdoor storage, which would

1:25:08ensure they are placed inside and rear yards.

1:25:10They provide visual screening and are located outside of buffer strips, natural

1:25:15areas, parking areas and fire routes.

1:25:18Permission has also been added to use shipping containers as storage facility use.

1:25:26Shipping containers converted to buildings continue to be regulated under the

1:25:29building code and when used as a building material would be required to comply

1:25:34with the regulations of the applicable zone.

1:25:37The proposed regulations were circulated to the workshop attendees to ensure

1:25:41they were satisfied with the proposed regulations and staff received positive

1:25:46feedback from this group.

1:25:50So finally, there is an official plan amendment proposed as a companion piece

1:25:55to the zoning bylaw.

1:25:57And this is to address land use designations on specific properties to

1:26:01better reflect the existing built form that exists there today.

1:26:05This amendment will ensure that lands with existing buildings do not lose their

1:26:09current development permissions.

1:26:12And since the statutory public meeting and exemption from maximum density has

1:26:16been added to the official plan amendment to address the low density housing

1:26:20with three units or less.

1:26:24So this concludes my presentation.

1:26:26I've included the recommendations on the slide before you.

1:26:36So thank you, Mayor Guthrie and members of council, just to provide some

1:26:40close and comments.

1:26:41So as you can see, there's been lots of work put forward over the last four

1:26:45years to bring this comprehensive zoning bylaw to council and the community.

1:26:50The zoning bylaw is one of the city's key documents and implements many of our

1:26:55master plans as well as the vision established in the official plan.

1:26:59The zoning bylaw turns recommendations and policies into regulations.

1:27:04The zoning bylaw is aligned with our strategic plan priorities.

1:27:08The new bylaw will help businesses succeed, will assist in designing a sustainable

1:27:12city, will help adopt clean transportation options and will help and will

1:27:17help increase the availability of housing to meet the community's needs.

1:27:22The city hasn't completed a comprehensive zoning bylaw review in 28 years,

1:27:27and that's a long time.

1:27:28And there are many changes proposed to align with our new vision for the city.

1:27:34You've heard from our staff that we wanted to create a modern zoning bylaw

1:27:37that is user friendly.

1:27:39We know that community members need to understand and finding, find the

1:27:43information in the zoning bylaw.

1:27:45With a new updated zoning bylaw, we would see less site specific amendments

1:27:49at council.

1:27:50We've simplified uses, meaning that we combine similar uses to provide greater

1:27:55flexibility and easier, easier administration.

1:27:59We've introduced flexible zones that permit a number of building types and

1:28:02introduce mixed zones and introduce mixed use zones.

1:28:07All of this will help streamline the development review process.

1:28:12The zoning bylaw reflects modern zoning and implements direction that you have

1:28:16council has given us, including our net zero targets and our tree canopy targets.

1:28:22We need to have policies for parking and driveway wets that will allow us to

1:28:26achieve council's direction.

1:28:28Without having provisions in the zoning bylaw that will help us get there.

1:28:32We will have a difficult time achieving the direction that council has given us

1:28:35for these goals.

1:28:39We have responding to these specific issues and have attachments that have

1:28:42demonstrated our thorough review.

1:28:44Staff have put forward their best professional professional recommendations

1:28:49and implemented best practices.

1:28:51As requested at the public meeting in July, we've incorporated the feedback

1:28:55where we felt it was appropriate or where staff do not agree.

1:28:59We have provided alternatives based on the comments we have received.

1:29:04This bylaw has been developed in house with some specific report from specific

1:29:08support from consultants, such as on the parking issues.

1:29:12It has been a truly collaborative project pulling expertise from our policy

1:29:16planners, development planners, urban designers, landscape, environmental

1:29:22and heritage planners are mapping and GIS experts and technical staff, the

1:29:27parks planners and many other departments throughout the city, such as building

1:29:31and zoning, engineering, economic development, transit, bylaw and compliance,

1:29:36as well as finance.

1:29:37We know there are some requests to delay this bylaw until after we've incorporated

1:29:41the changes that came from the province last week with our OP update.

1:29:45We do not support the request for this delay.

1:29:50We have a year to bring the zoning bylaw updates to implement the OP changes,

1:29:54and it will take us a bit of time to review the changes from the province

1:29:57and then update our policies.

1:29:59We do intend to report back to you shortly with these impacts.

1:30:03So meanwhile, moving this comprehensive zoning bylaw forward, up zones,

1:30:07properties and exclusionary zoning opens up supportive housing and generally

1:30:12creates more housing opportunities for the current and future residents of

1:30:16Guelph. With that, Mr. Merrill, I'll turn it over back to you.

1:30:22Great. Thank you very much.

1:30:26It's kind of like a kind of like a turkey dinner.

1:30:29You know, it takes a long time to prepare that I just eat it all in like 20

1:30:32minutes in three years of like preparing this, right?

1:30:36And then it's then it your presentation just sums it all up in like 25 minutes.

1:30:40So I just want you to know it's it's it's great, great work and great presentation.

1:30:45Thank you very much.

1:30:48Let's go to our delegations, which we actually have three.

1:30:53One video, one in person, one over the phone.

1:30:56And so we'll kick into that and five minutes for

1:31:01the delegations time limit as well.

1:31:04Now, Dana Gilbert looks like to be the first and it says by video here.

1:31:10All right. I think the video is coming on.

1:31:17Yep. And can you hear me OK?

1:31:21Hey, yeah, we can hear you fine as well.

1:31:23Thank you very much for for joining us.

1:31:26And as soon as you're ready and you start, I'll start the timer for you.

1:31:29OK, up to five minutes. Go right ahead.

1:31:32Thank you. Thank you, Mayor Guthrie, your worship and members of council.

1:31:36I really appreciate the opportunity to delegate in front of you today.

1:31:39I also thank planning staff for all of their work they did on the comprehensive by law.

1:31:44It seems very, very thorough and overall a very good job.

1:31:50What I wanted to delegate specifically on today is our site.

1:31:54For some of you, you would have seen me before.

1:31:57For others, we have a five acre site in the city of Guelph

1:32:02that is owned by the University of Guelph, where we have a partnership

1:32:05through a ground lease to provide very much needed student housing.

1:32:09The address of that is 601 Scottsdale.

1:32:12We obtained zoning approval last year in March of last year

1:32:18that permitted the use of not student housing, but

1:32:23resident residential suites is how it was defined last year.

1:32:28We went through a public, obviously, process and community consultation

1:32:33where council unanimously approved the use within the existing

1:32:38holiday in building and a conversion and a retrofit of that building

1:32:43to provide much needed student housing.

1:32:45Also, at that during that public process, we received unsolicited

1:32:50letters of support for this site to be specific for student housing.

1:32:56For those that don't know, it's founded by Stone Road, Scottsdale and the Hanlon.

1:33:02And a lot of people felt that the support of which for this location

1:33:07would then free up a lot of much needed, low rise, single family homes

1:33:12to an area that is specific for students.

1:33:16Our first phase provided 177 beds on that one acre, one and a half acre parcel.

1:33:24And we are moving towards phase two, which will provide 800 beds

1:33:29and new beds of student housing and much needed as the city of Guelph

1:33:33currently has a 12,000 bed shortfall of much needed student housing.

1:33:39One of the things in our partnership with the University of Guelph is that we can

1:33:43only lease and rent to University of Guelph students.

1:33:47And so it is a direct support of the university itself.

1:33:52We submitted many letters and we've been involved in this comprehensive

1:33:56bylaw process both last year.

1:33:59We've submitted one on March 3rd and then again, we attached it on the 13th.

1:34:05I'm not going to take you through every single one of those comments

1:34:08and of those detailed comments, but during this delegation.

1:34:13But what our request is is that those that council considers those site

1:34:19specific changes that we've outlined in those in those letters

1:34:25for us to move expeditiously through the approval process.

1:34:32The use has already been approved on this site.

1:34:36The the use for student housing has already gone through a public

1:34:41consultation process with phase one.

1:34:45And we would request that the zoning bylaw reflects that as well as

1:34:50that OPA 80 and I understand why OPA 80 isn't reflected in the current

1:34:57zoning bylaw or comprehensive bylaw in front of you.

1:35:00But in terms of the height permissions, the density permissions, etc.

1:35:05is also site specifically considered so that we can go to a site plan

1:35:12specific process to move

1:35:16on and provide student housing as expeditiously as we can.

1:35:21And that in a nutshell is my delegation.

1:35:26So I'm talking specifically about our site at 601 Scottsdale

1:35:31and consideration of a site specific changes made to this comprehensive bylaw

1:35:35as well as a companion OPA to bring it up to date with OPA 80.

1:35:43OK, thank you very much.

1:35:45So let's stop the clock there and just ask if there's any follow up question

1:35:51for the delegation.

1:35:53Karen, please.

1:35:56Yes, thank you, three, Mr.

1:35:57Mayor, I just want to make sure that I understand whether or not I may be in

1:36:02conflict because I do work in the student housing

1:36:06portfolio at the university.

1:36:08So I just have a questions of the delegate related to me understanding

1:36:12whether I need to declare conflict.

1:36:14Miss Gilbert, do you work for the university or you work for forum asset management?

1:36:22Through you, your worship in Casa Crom.

1:36:24Thank you for that. I guess I didn't fully introduce myself.

1:36:26My name is Dana Gilbert.

1:36:27I'm managing director at Forum Asset Management.

1:36:30The lands that we are speaking about are owned by the University of Guelph.

1:36:34And so we are we have a ground lease on the lands, but we are we are a private developer.

1:36:41OK, so that ground lease has existed for decades.

1:36:45That is a ground lease that is a long term land lease

1:36:50that carried on with the holiday and that is not that is the building itself,

1:36:56the building and all the assets and the new building that you're proposing

1:37:00are not University of Guelph assets.

1:37:02They are they're private for profit development.

1:37:07Through your worship, Councillor Caron, that's correct.

1:37:10So the ground lease hasn't lasted for however long.

1:37:13We've redrafted that ground lease on the purchase of the holiday in,

1:37:16which happened in August of 2021.

1:37:19So we had a different ground lease executed with the University of Guelph.

1:37:24And so but the university

1:37:27the holiday in or the previous holiday in, which now is lovingly known as Alma,

1:37:33which is our brand of student housing within it, is owned by forum asset management.

1:37:39And as we move forward to phase two, we'll be the same.

1:37:44OK, and you talked about a partnership as part of your presentation.

1:37:49You have a partnership with the university other than the fact

1:37:52that the university is technically the owner of the land.

1:37:55What is that partnership?

1:37:57Are they managing?

1:37:58Are they involved in administration?

1:38:01Are they filling them?

1:38:02Are they like what is that partnership look like other than land ownership?

1:38:07Effectively, it's land ownership at this time.

1:38:09I use the word partnership as well, because we do house their students

1:38:12and the amenities, etc.

1:38:15that are being provided in phase one and then eventually phase two.

1:38:18We have great relationships with the faculties where we are

1:38:21partnering on how we can incorporate different student life or lecture, etc.

1:38:26They very much are our partner.

1:38:28But in a legal standpoint, it is land ownership.

1:38:32And those partnerships with faculty are in place

1:38:35now or that's a future vision.

1:38:39We are exploring them now as the construction of the West side

1:38:45is just finalizing itself.

1:38:47And so, but there has been students that have lived there since October

1:38:51of last year or November of last year.

1:38:53And so we are continuing to have obviously conversations

1:38:57and relationships about potential partnerships.

1:39:00We've had the real estate and the Lang School of Business

1:39:03through the property.

1:39:05We've provided different lectures and provided the opportunity

1:39:08for students to learn within each of those amenities

1:39:11that we offer within phase one as well.

1:39:13And hope to continue those types of faculty partnerships such as

1:39:17the agricultural, the agricultural program, the hotel and hospitality.

1:39:24Obviously the real estate and so any kind of relationship

1:39:28that we can foster to assist students that are not

1:39:32only living on our lands, but also giving that kind of connection

1:39:35to the main campus and those faculties as well,

1:39:38fostering those relationships throughout.

1:39:42Okay. Thank you.

1:39:43That helps.

1:39:44And then just one final question just about just again,

1:39:48I need to take it in and turn off my screen and decide if I'm in conflict.

1:39:53For asset management has no direct relationship with the university.

1:39:58It is a North American company that is a for-profit developer.

1:40:02Is that kind of a definition of what form asset management is?

1:40:06You're a for-profit developer in North America.

1:40:09Is that correct?

1:40:10That's my understanding from your website.

1:40:14Through you, your worship and Councillor Caron, that is correct.

1:40:18Okay. Thanks.

1:40:20That helps to clarify.

1:40:21I'm just going to turn off my screen, do a little bit of thinking,

1:40:23and then Mr. Mary may come back with the presentation.

1:40:26I may come back with a pecuniary interest.

1:40:30Given that this is a comprehensive zoning bylaw exercise,

1:40:34it may not be necessary, but I'll get back to you.

1:40:37Just need to go back to my legal opinion from a year ago.

1:40:42Okay. Thank you so much.

1:40:43And to stay with us, Dana, because Councillor Allt has a question as well.

1:40:48Thank you very much, Marigot 3, through you to Ms. Gilbert.

1:40:53First off, I just need to clarify.

1:40:54There is no amendment in front of us with regards to 601 Scottsdale at this point.

1:41:00Is there?

1:41:02There is not.

1:41:03We submitted through you, sorry, through you, Mayor Guthrie and Councillor,

1:41:09thank you for your question.

1:41:10There is not an amendment right in front of you at this time.

1:41:14However, we've provided some very detailed comments about revisions

1:41:20that we would like to be considered in this comprehensive zoning bylaw

1:41:25as well through a companion OP at this time.

1:41:31Thank you.

1:41:32Two questions that I think are of significance

1:41:35and I hope that you can put some appropriate context on these.

1:41:41I'm struggling, first of all, with the density that you are suggesting.

1:41:45800 students in that area where we have a seniors residence,

1:41:48multiple townhouse developments, a number of other apartments strikes me

1:41:52as being quite excessive in that area.

1:41:55I was wondering, first of all, if you could comment on that.

1:42:00Through you, Your Worship, Councillor,

1:42:03this is a site that is bounded by major arterial roads and highways.

1:42:09The other thing is just to the east of it is the most major mall

1:42:15that provides retail outside of the downtown core itself.

1:42:21All of the amenities along this street is an area to which people come

1:42:27on a day to day basis to service their everyday needs,

1:42:32as well as their larger needs as well.

1:42:34It's very well serviced by transit.

1:42:37There is direct bus access to directly to the university

1:42:43and then directly to downtown as well.

1:42:46Students need a place to go.

1:42:50And what is happening and what we're seeing is that we are seeing lineups

1:42:54in single family residences because the University of Guelph

1:42:58on campus doesn't have enough student housing, but also now you have people

1:43:02investing and buying up single family residences to service students.

1:43:08On this location, you've also got a major series

1:43:11highway that gets students and their parents in and out of Guelph

1:43:16efficiently and effectively.

1:43:18It's not even 200 meters away.

1:43:21And so when we went through this public consultation process last year,

1:43:24as I said, we had unsolicited support of letters of support

1:43:29from the community saying this is the exact location that you should be

1:43:33putting students as opposed to taking housing from others,

1:43:38whether that be other apartment buildings, whether that be single family

1:43:41housings and that now allows and addresses the housing crisis

1:43:46that we're dealing with for other demographics and population.

1:43:50So in terms of the density itself on this particular site,

1:43:56when you look at the density that's been contemplated in a lot of official plans,

1:44:01not just in Guelph, student housing is defined as residential,

1:44:06but really student housing has different needs because that demographic

1:44:09has different needs the same way that supportive housing has different needs,

1:44:12the same way that families have different needs, etc.

1:44:15When you broadly define something as residential,

1:44:18you don't factor in the everyday living experiences or needs of those people.

1:44:23And so students live in smaller space.

1:44:27And so when you're defining by unit, that unit isn't a thousand square foot unit.

1:44:33It's a smaller space to make sure that students, both internationally and

1:44:40demographic domestically, have a place to live together with and conform

1:44:46a student campus almost that has community and like-minded people

1:44:52living in the same lifestyle and in that transitionary form as a young

1:44:57professional entering into adult life.

1:45:00And now instead of dispersing them throughout the city,

1:45:03they have a specific location that they can identify and create a self

1:45:07as placed in community for themselves.

1:45:09So the density itself is more to ensure that we have housing for students.

1:45:16And as I said, Guelph currently right now is the most under-supplied

1:45:23university in all of Canada and it's currently lacking 12,000 beds and

1:45:31continuing to increase.

1:45:33Dana, sorry to interrupt.

1:45:36Just we had staff wanted to just jump in for a second.

1:45:38And I know that Councillor Allt has a second question.

1:45:42And I just just before I go to staff, I don't know what they're going to say.

1:45:45I just want to be careful that we don't like turn every single correspondence

1:45:49that we have in front of us, which is a lot, into a almost like almost viewing

1:45:56them and feeling it like it's an application process.

1:45:59Right.

1:45:59So, so, you know, your question, Councillor Allt precipitated the response

1:46:05from this delegate because it's almost a question that should normally land

1:46:09in more of an application process in my view as the chair.

1:46:13But let me go to staff.

1:46:15I don't you go ahead.

1:46:17Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

1:46:18And to that, I was going to say, Ditto, the Official Plan Amendment for this was,

1:46:24you know, provided to us by the province on Tuesday for the height and densities.

1:46:29There it this is a site specific request that is before you today.

1:46:34That's not how we have looked at the comprehensive zoning by-law as a whole.

1:46:37Once we update the zoning for the OP based on the minister's comments,

1:46:43the OP policies will be in place.

1:46:45But there's still appears certainly to be some site specific provisions that they

1:46:49be asked for above and beyond this.

1:46:52From our view, this was not a time or place to look at this.

1:46:55They can come in with an individual development application to do site

1:46:58specifics and we will update the OP policies as we move forward.

1:47:05OK, thank you for that context.

1:47:07And Dana, just stick with us.

1:47:08Councillor Allt did a secondary question.

1:47:10So go ahead, please.

1:47:11Actually, with comments from staff, which were similar to where I was going to go.

1:47:16I don't think I have any further questions.

1:47:17Marigrath, we thank you very much.

1:47:20OK, thank you.

1:47:21So I do have a clarity question.

1:47:23It's just very much a yes or no for myself.

1:47:26So the changes from the province, I'm sorry, last week,

1:47:30did change things in this particular site?

1:47:34Staff. Is that right?

1:47:37Oh, I'm sorry.

1:47:37Yes, not to step back.

1:47:39Thank you. I shouldn't have done that.

1:47:41I started going back and forth with the staff.

1:47:42It's just to you, Dana, our delegate.

1:47:44Sorry. So I just got the answer to that.

1:47:47That's fine.

1:47:48But your request for anything to do with the current zoning that's in front of us

1:47:53right now would have to take into consideration the changes that came in

1:47:58from the province last week.

1:47:59Would that be correct?

1:48:02Mayor Guthrie, your worship.

1:48:05Yes, partially.

1:48:08Yes, OK.

1:48:09And we did hear, I think, in the presentation that it looks like those

1:48:13site specific issues and also zoning issues that need to be updated

1:48:16are going to be coming back to us at some point soon.

1:48:19Correct? Just to staff to kind of close us up.

1:48:21Yeah, any heads nodded?

1:48:22OK, that's important, I think, for sure.

1:48:25Because I mean, hey, look, everything you said, you know, fully fully appreciate

1:48:30for sure, especially around the student housing, for sure.

1:48:35There's heads nodding in here on that as well.

1:48:36So that's good. OK.

1:48:38So is there any other further questions on this particular one?

1:48:40No. OK.

1:48:42Dana, thank you very much for joining us and in your information.

1:48:45Really appreciate it.

1:48:48OK. Thank you so much.

1:48:50OK, you're welcome.

1:48:51We're going to move right along then.

1:48:54We actually don't have two more.

1:48:56We only have one more and lucky for us, it's John Lawson, who's in person.

1:49:02So he's coming on down here and I'll get my clock ready for you here, John.

1:49:16And welcome. And whenever you start, I'll start the timer for you. OK.

1:49:20Oh, it's OK. OK.

1:49:28OK, thanks.

1:49:30Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie and members of council.

1:49:34My name is John Lawson and I'm presenting on behalf of the Old University

1:49:39Old Neighborhood Residence University, Jeepers, Creepers.

1:49:43I'm not going to start over again.

1:49:45It's a mouthful anyway.

1:49:46We always call it UNRWA, but Old University Neighborhood Residence Association.

1:49:53And while we in no way say we can represent the area,

1:49:57I think we've got a pretty good sense of of our neighborhood.

1:50:02And I think we can safely say that our neighborhood in the Old University area

1:50:06is a prime area already for redevelopment.

1:50:11And we first see that this will only intensify.

1:50:15And needless to say, this is causing some degree of anxiety

1:50:19on in many parts of our community and our neighbors.

1:50:23I'm wondering if the essential character of our neighborhood will change.

1:50:28Just last week, I had a series of long conversations with an individual

1:50:33who was very distraught with a severance beside him

1:50:37and the prospect of a very large two story home overshadowing his bungalow.

1:50:43And before making some specific comments on the bylaws coming before you now,

1:50:47I wish to just have a couple of general comments.

1:50:51First, we have a I have a great deal of sympathy.

1:50:54We have a great deal of sympathy for you as a city council and city staff.

1:50:59Changes and edicts from the province have come fast and furious at you,

1:51:04often meaning that careful planning and citizen consultation

1:51:09has been overturned or at least been and has sent people scrambling.

1:51:14On the other hand, kudos to you, Mayor Guthrie,

1:51:18recognizing the urgency of the housing crisis that we face in the city.

1:51:23Your proposals regarding homelessness and now in regards to amendments

1:51:29to these bylaws are trying to address a real real crisis in the city.

1:51:36And your willingness, Mr.

1:51:37Mayor, to along with our city councilors down in Karen to come

1:51:42and engage our community on this very challenging topic.

1:51:47On May the 30th, we're very much looking forward for you coming

1:51:51and engaging with our community and thank you for that.

1:51:56What we would today urge city council is as you consider these

1:52:01to be able to step back as well and look at the whole picture

1:52:04and explore those age those areas where you can offer some controls

1:52:10and building broad public support for intensification

1:52:15so as to protect some of the essential character of our neighborhoods

1:52:19while we intensify and we do not in any way

1:52:25object to that.

1:52:27Here are some suggestions in our old university neighborhood.

1:52:31Many student rent there are many student rentals with absentee landlords,

1:52:35some of whom have no interest and commitment to our neighborhood.

1:52:40And for them, it's just an investment.

1:52:43And at the very least, we urge the city council to explore

1:52:47licensing of landlords and smaller rental properties

1:52:51so that the city has some sense of rental stock as a whole across the city

1:52:57and some basic standard of operation.

1:53:00While some of these rentals are mom and pop operations,

1:53:04others are very large businesses and need city oversight,

1:53:08especially as we foresee and indeed hope for more rental stock within our areas.

1:53:14Second, we urge the city council and staff to look at possible ways

1:53:18of implementing urban design guidelines

1:53:22that in some ways will protect the unique character of not only our neighborhood,

1:53:27but others as well as things intensify.

1:53:31The attractive triplex design that was pointed out a few minutes ago

1:53:36in your addendum to the bylaw package, I think would be welcome

1:53:39in many areas of the city and including ours.

1:53:42The danger is that without some basic design guidelines,

1:53:46we have a hodgepodge that could erode and fracture community

1:53:52and and our neighborhood.

1:53:54And finally, as intensification proceeds, the goals of the city

1:53:59for a 40 percent tree canopy will be challenged.

1:54:03And we're already blessed with a very generous tree canopy in our neighborhood,

1:54:08which makes it very attractive to all of us.

1:54:12And we are very gratified to know that coming before the city council

1:54:16will be a tree protection bylaw and we commend you for this work.

1:54:21In short, our message is, please think outside the box

1:54:24so that you can consider complimentary bylaws and guidelines

1:54:30that will protect neighborhood character,

1:54:33even as necessary, intensification takes place.

1:54:38Great. Very much. Great.

1:54:39No, perfect timing.

1:54:41Thank you very much for your your delegation.

1:54:43And let me see if there's just a follow up for you. OK.

1:54:47And there isn't, but we appreciate you hanging out with us.

1:54:50I'm already waiting for that moment. OK. Thank you.

1:54:52Thank you very much.

1:54:55All right. Just let me confer with the clerks for a moment, everybody.

1:55:05So I think what I'll do is I think I'd like to

1:55:10I think I'd like to take a break.

1:55:14A hard stop rate at noon. OK.

1:55:16So just so everyone has has the heads up on that.

1:55:20And so what I'd like to do is I'm sorry,

1:55:24I just need to confer with the clerk one more time from a procedural point of view.

1:55:27OK. Could I have someone at least at this point move the recommendations

1:55:40that are before us to officially have it on the floor?

1:55:43Alt and Bucitil will move in second that for us.

1:55:48So that's great.

1:55:49And then I just want to really make sure that everyone understands

1:55:54the flow of this because I want us to be, you know, efficient and effective

1:55:59with our time, not only as the decision makers, but for everyone else as well.

1:56:04And I already see heads nodding on camera and in person.

1:56:08So that's great.

1:56:10I just want to make sure that it's a little nudge of a reminder.

1:56:14You know, this is a decision moment now.

1:56:16We've had three years, right?

1:56:18And we've had multiple conversations, open opportunities with staff

1:56:24to be able to understand what their positions are.

1:56:27And I have been made aware.

1:56:32I have been made aware of motions that are coming forward.

1:56:38And so is everyone else. Everyone knows.

1:56:41So I'd just like you to understand that staff, as they rightly said

1:56:45in their presentation, I think it was Krista, they indicated that

1:56:49their positions are already known.

1:56:51There's really no, there's nothing necessary here for questions really

1:56:57of, well, what does staff think?

1:57:00Because unless something completely new flies on the floor,

1:57:03which is our open process to be able to do that, you should know staff's position.

1:57:08And we all probably know to a certain extent what our own positions are as well.

1:57:14And I think if we move into this moment with an opportunity to think about that,

1:57:18it will make us go through things a lot quicker.

1:57:22Just like I do at budget time, I talked to staff in advance

1:57:25and felt it was necessary for me to understand, hey, give me the heads up

1:57:29on sort of what the motions are, which everyone kind of knows.

1:57:32So I'm just going to go through them.

1:57:34OK, I'm just going to go through them.

1:57:36And we're just going to do one theme at a time.

1:57:39OK, so when driveways come up, because I know it's a theme,

1:57:43we'll talk driveways.

1:57:44And then when we're done with driveways, let's just move on to whatever the next one is.

1:57:48OK, you know, I got one about things that are over three plexes, four plexes or whatever.

1:57:53We'll say that one to the end or whatever.

1:57:55But when we get there, it just gets there and it's just done.

1:57:58So I'm just going to wade through them.

1:57:59And then at the end, of course, we'll say, is there anything else?

1:58:02Of course, there'll be an opportunity if there's anything else that has been missed.

1:58:06OK, so with that, with the motion on the motions on the floor,

1:58:11what I'd like to do is

1:58:14just start start going through this pile here that I was given from staff.

1:58:20So thank you very much to staff.

1:58:23Let.

1:58:24Councillor Downer, would you?

1:58:26So just sort of a point of order here.

1:58:29Can we do questions of staff?

1:58:31Yes. No, no, no. Yeah. Sorry.

1:58:32I'm going to do that. That was my fault.

1:58:34I'm going to go questions based on the theme of the motion that will be right

1:58:38in front of us, so we're not jumping all over the place.

1:58:41So if that's OK, so in other words, I'd like to

1:58:45unless there's overarching questions that you needed beyond the motions.

1:58:51Yes, I had a couple.

1:58:52OK, well, just make it an open moment here for any questions.

1:58:56And then we'll move into the motions as I normally would do. OK.

1:58:59So go ahead, Councillor Downer, and then I'm going to go, Councillor Oror.

1:59:05So the questions I had right now, we're just sort of just on the last delegation for

1:59:11for I just want to clarify with staff around the licensing.

1:59:16We had asked for report back on licensing

1:59:21a while ago and that coming this year, or is it early next year that that report

1:59:25is coming back of licensing of rental properties?

1:59:33Yeah. Sorry.

1:59:59Through you, Mayor Guthrie, to Councillor Downer, the short term rental

2:00:04process was approved by Council will be implemented in July 1st.

2:00:10Long term rentals, there was a motion by Council to take a look at long term

2:00:18rental licensing and I turned that over to Crystal Walke, but that is on the work.

2:00:24Yeah.

2:00:26Through Mayor Guthrie to Councillor Downer, so it is on our work plan.

2:00:29And what we're doing is we're having to relook at what we had anticipated to do

2:00:33based on regulations of three units as of right.

2:00:36So it's not quite as minimal of a task, perhaps as it was before.

2:00:41It's city wide and it's a large process.

2:00:43So is it registration or licensing?

2:00:47And those are what we have to look at in 2024 was our timeline for that

2:00:52based on the amendments that have come through.

2:00:55OK, thank you. So that is coming back.

2:00:58And but you'll be looking at.

2:01:01With this new with the three units now, well, primary plus two.

2:01:05OK, great. The other one around the urban design guidelines, because I had asked

2:01:10that question for three.

2:01:13Try what what is now triplexes and small apartments in the lot when this came before.

2:01:20And I really appreciate the demonstration plans that we have for those.

2:01:25I mean, that's really helpful.

2:01:27But but as far as putting any kind of real guidelines to those other than

2:01:32providing those to developers of those properties, is there anything we can do?

2:01:38Do or are there already things within this guideline and other tools?

2:01:43I think you should have referenced this earlier and through the presentation

2:01:48that that we've tried to because we can't because Bill 23 took away that the design

2:01:54and some of the design guideline work. Is this.

2:01:58Is there anything else that we can do or any tools that we have in this?

2:02:07Through America, three to counselor downer.

2:02:09So the regulations that are built into the zoning by law do

2:02:14provide some standards.

2:02:16So in terms of setbacks, landscaped open space requirements,

2:02:20overall building height, location of parking areas, that's kind of all built

2:02:24right into the zoning by law.

2:02:26So their development permissions are the same as a single detached dwelling.

2:02:33For the America, three, if I can add to that,

2:02:36with the changes to Bill 23 and 10 units or less,

2:02:42urban design guidelines are not applicable for anything less than 10 units going forward.

2:02:48Yes, but the question was sort of are there other tools

2:02:52other than the urban design guidelines that we're going to be using in order?

2:02:55Like the checklist we just had some of that is around

2:02:59the sustainability checklist we just do, but I guess they're just

2:03:03their guidelines are not regulations.

2:03:06OK, that's correct.

2:03:08Thank you.

2:03:10Or work, please.

2:03:14Thank you, Marigot, three, three, you to stuff just in response to the first

2:03:19delegate and also the letter or correspondence number 40 by Miss Costello.

2:03:24There we've had a couple of questions around

2:03:27changes in OPA 80 and will they be updated in the zoning by law?

2:03:33So I'm just wondering, like, what is the process, right?

2:03:36So we know that there were some changes as late as last week.

2:03:41If we approve the comprehensive zoning bylaw today, as amended or as presented, we'll see.

2:03:49What's the process then to modify the zoning by law

2:03:53to then reflect some of the changes in OPA 80?

2:03:56So I'm just I'm trying to answer several of the letters that we received

2:04:00and just to understand that that will come.

2:04:03Is that correct?

2:04:05Through the through the mayor to councillor O'Rourke.

2:04:08So this comprehensive zoning bylaw actually does incorporate

2:04:14quite a few changes that are already in OPA 80,

2:04:19but not all of them.

2:04:20And so as we we don't want to be doing legislation on the fly,

2:04:25but we do have a year to get those changes in from OPA 80 into our comprehensive

2:04:31into our zoning bylaw.

2:04:32And so we'll be doing that over the next year

2:04:35and looking to bring that back to council.

2:04:38Great. Thanks very much.

2:04:42Just as a follow up on that, it doesn't mean it will take a year.

2:04:46It means as like some of them are site specific changes, right?

2:04:49So if some of them are easier to implement, you will bring those forward as you go.

2:04:55And if some of them are more complicated, then it will take time.

2:05:00Free. Perfect.

2:05:03Hey, well, why don't we why don't we see about

2:05:08getting through at least one here? OK.

2:05:12So this will be a test.

2:05:15See if the soup gets cold or not.

2:05:17Um, OK, this one happens to be on the top here and it is has to do with.

2:05:24Attached garages.

2:05:25It's councillor Billings.

2:05:26Is she yes, councillor Billings is here.

2:05:31Councillor Billings, go ahead.

2:05:33I think clerks have things ready as you speak to them.

2:05:36But I will be looking for seconders like right away

2:05:41before we have huge, you know, five minute speeches on things.

2:05:44So go ahead, councillor Billings and.

2:05:48See if we've got to.

2:05:50Well, do you want there?

2:05:52You speak you speak to it and see if I have a seconder.

2:05:55OK, well, this is an amendment that I'm moving, so I would need a seconder to speak to it.

2:06:02Boosetil will second it.

2:06:05OK, so what this is is under the maximum with of attached garage

2:06:10and also maximum residential driveway with, but I'm only focusing in on

2:06:16the semi detached dwelling under RL to.

2:06:20So there were a few comments in our in the correspondence

2:06:24and what it is is essentially.

2:06:28If you have a 12 meter lot, you are allowed to have your six meter

2:06:34garage and your and your six meter driveway.

2:06:37However, if you go under that, then you are subject to.

2:06:42Five meters again, I'm only speaking to RL to and the single detached dwelling.

2:06:48I'm not touching the semis or the duplexes or or anything like that or the townhomes.

2:06:55And what this would do this amendment, what it would do is

2:06:59as a number of builders have said, this eliminates the possibility

2:07:04of the much desired two car garages on house products on lots less than 12 meters.

2:07:09So this focuses on the lots less than 12 meters.

2:07:13So you can technically say you have a lot that's 11 meters or 11 and a half meters wide.

2:07:19You can actually put in a two car garage, but not if you're only allowed five meters.

2:07:26So what this amendment does, it allows the two car garage

2:07:30and it's in keeping with staff's direction of maintaining the 50 percent

2:07:36landscape area in the front yard.

2:07:39So you can't go over the 50 percent.

2:07:41However, it does allow you to put in the double car, I'm sorry,

2:07:46the double car driveway and the double car garage.

2:07:49And then that way, the builders don't have to go to committee of adjustment

2:07:53for a variance and it was timing and money.

2:07:56So that is my amendment.

2:08:01OK. And I call the vote on this then.

2:08:05Looks like I can. Yes. OK.

2:08:08I'll call the vote on this amendment.

2:08:10Is anyone against this amendment?

2:08:14OK, that's unanimous.

2:08:15It's approved. We're going to move on.

2:08:19Now, is that it for you, Councillor Billings,

2:08:22because I had like two, three printed off here.

2:08:26No, that was just working out the wording with staff or the OK.

2:08:31And so it was just so I'm done with respect to the double car garage issue.

2:08:38OK.

2:08:40OK, thank you so much, everybody.

2:08:46We've got a couple minutes left here to think we can handle

2:08:49a driveway width in two minutes.

2:08:53Sorry, a little bit of levity there.

2:09:00Well, you know what? I'm just going to I'm going to stop it there.

2:09:02I'm going to make an executive decision.

2:09:04There you go. We're going to stop it there.

2:09:06It's one minute to 12.

2:09:08So why don't we call come back here for 12 30.

2:09:11OK, I've just over half an hour and and get

2:09:16ready and ready to go.

2:09:17We'll just keep moving through all these ones and and get her done.

2:09:19OK, thank you so much, everybody. Take a break.

2:42:33I'm just going to give a one to two minute warning here.

2:42:36And then we're going to be back on and just to so those,

2:42:39especially those on line, if they can put on their cameras,

2:42:43just just just so I can acknowledge that you're with us.

2:43:41All right, I'll call the meeting back to order then, please.

2:43:44Thank you so much.

2:43:45Before we go any further, I need to ask Council

2:43:50to look to approve a confirmation or an acknowledgement

2:43:55of a mistake that I did in the last motion.

2:44:00When it came up on the screen,

2:44:03I only said that we were talking about garages

2:44:07and Councillor Billings rightly only talked about garages.

2:44:11But on the screen, there was motions in regards to driveway widths.

2:44:19And that was not what we were talking about.

2:44:21And that's not what we I think any of us at all

2:44:26were thinking about voting on at all.

2:44:29So I am stopping right now.

2:44:32And I've been in the break.

2:44:34I asked the the clerk to write up a motion that you can see on the screen here

2:44:39that says that City Council confirms that the previous vote

2:44:42included only the clause one of the displayed motion.

2:44:46And that's only in regards to the garage.

2:44:49OK, so that way we're just clear before we go forward for any clarity.

2:44:56OK, we will go to

2:45:00driveway widths separate, completely separate.

2:45:03Councillor All willing to do that.

2:45:04Councillor Goller is willing to second that.

2:45:07I don't think that's pretty self-explanatory.

2:45:09Is everyone good with that? OK, good.

2:45:11I'm going to call the vote.

2:45:13Does anyone disagree with with that motion?

2:45:18All right, that's unanimous, confirmed, clarified,

2:45:22acknowledged for the record, so let it be written, so let it be done.

2:45:27OK, so let's move on.

2:45:28I'm going to try to keep with the theme of parking

2:45:34because I just want us council to know

2:45:38that there is a parking consultant here that worked on some of the stuff.

2:45:42If underline the word if, if there needs to be any questions to the consultant.

2:45:48OK, and so I just want to get through that that moment right now.

2:45:53Councillor O'Rourke, I got yours in front of me, if that's OK with you.

2:45:57Put you on the spot. So your head nodding agreement.

2:46:00There's a few from you, which is fine.

2:46:02The one I have is the one that says that the parking adjustment

2:46:07PA along Gordon Street and then up to Vaughan Street.

2:46:11So that's the first one that is going to come up on the screen.

2:46:15Margarita, actually, since we're talking about garages,

2:46:18I have one about garage projection if you want to do that one.

2:46:22And then I have others for apartment parking.

2:46:27But if you wanted to stay on just the garage and then do driveway with,

2:46:31we could do the parking later, the apartments later.

2:46:36Well, the consultant is here and staff have indicated

2:46:38there's some timing with the consultant that I'd like to try to make sure we stick

2:46:42to just recognizing the time constraints for the for that.

2:46:47If you don't mind, I'll just continue with parking if that's OK.

2:46:50Sure. So then the motion that should come up was circulated last week.

2:46:55So it's not on the screen there. Is that OK?

2:46:58No, that's not the one.

2:47:00OK, which one would you like?

2:47:02The one I would like is the table five point three, row two, be amended.

2:47:08OK, for the first 20 dwelling units.

2:47:10So essentially what the motion is is for the exterior of, you know,

2:47:16excluding the downtown for all the suburban areas that we keep the current

2:47:21apartment parking requirements.

2:47:25OK, great.

2:47:27Let me just see if there's a seconder for this.

2:47:30Councillor Chew has told me that he would second.

2:47:33OK, perfect.

2:47:34And did you want to say anything further on that one before I call the vote?

2:47:40Sure. I mean, I think that given our growth rate, given the experience of many

2:47:45of our constituents in terms of overflow parking, given the cost of housing

2:47:49and apartments and condos, I think it's premature to reduce parking

2:47:53minimums for apartment buildings outside the downtown core.

2:47:57We know that on street parking complaints account for 30 percent or 29.6

2:48:02percent of our bylaw calls.

2:48:04We heard from staff that we're going to at some point consider city owned

2:48:07parking lots and residential neighborhoods.

2:48:10And I think that before we look at the capital and operating costs of doing that,

2:48:14we should make sure that apartment buildings have sufficient parking for residents.

2:48:20Thank you.

2:48:22All right, would it be OK if I called the vote then on that?

2:48:27Don't see any questions.

2:48:29OK, I would have comments on this at all.

2:48:33No, OK, I'll just I'll just call the vote then.

2:48:36OK, is anyone against this one?

2:48:43OK, it looks like only three myself, alt and downer.

2:48:48So that passes.

2:48:50All right, and right back to you, Councillor O'Rourke, you want to keep moving along.

2:48:53Which what's the next one you want to do?

2:48:55The next one is on garage projections, Mayor Guthrie.

2:48:59OK.

2:49:00So as it stands, the comprehensive zoning bylaw is proposing to restrict

2:49:06garage projections so that they can the garage cannot extend beyond the face

2:49:11of the dwelling.

2:49:12Two of the letters that we had in our packages talk about the constraints

2:49:16then to living space.

2:49:18And so while I understand there's a concern about having a garage projection

2:49:21that is far beyond the front wall of the building.

2:49:24So my initial inclination is just to say remove the restriction altogether.

2:49:29I do know there's a concern about what used to be called snout houses.

2:49:33So I am proposing to remove the porch requirement, but still allow

2:49:38maximum two meter projection, which is a standard zoning bylaw regulation in Ontario.

2:49:43So that motion is that Section five point eleven point two be amended as follows.

2:49:49Within residential zones, attached garages are permitted to project a maximum

2:49:53of two meters beyond the main front wall of the first story containing habitable

2:49:58floor space oriented toward the front lot line or exterior side lot line

2:50:02abiding a street line for single detached dwellings and semi detached dwellings

2:50:07in downtown zones attached garages shall not project beyond the main front wall

2:50:11of the building.

2:50:14Thank you. Is there a seconder for this one?

2:50:20Richardson looks like online there.

2:50:22OK. How about a question or comment from Councillor Downer, please?

2:50:29I don't support I'll just I don't support the amendment.

2:50:35I mean, we don't have urban design guidelines anymore and a lot of things.

2:50:39So but I mean, this is something that's really important.

2:50:42Something Jane Jacobs talked about many years when we had so many projecting

2:50:46garages that, you know, the eyes on the streets aren't there because the garages

2:50:50are in the way and doors are recessed.

2:50:52So it's it's that eyes on the street.

2:50:55It's an urban design guideline when you look down a street.

2:50:58You want to see houses, not garages.

2:51:00I mean, and, you know, I understand that there's got to be other ways to accommodate

2:51:05that extra space.

2:51:06So I I'm just not going to support it.

2:51:07It's something that

2:51:09um, many urban designers have been wanting to do for, you know, incorporate for years.

2:51:17Thank you, Councillor.

2:51:18Alt, did you have a question or comment?

2:51:19Yes, thank you very much.

2:51:20It's very similar to to Councillor Downers and I did see staff nodding.

2:51:25I was wondering if staff could please comment on the concerns they might have

2:51:29with regards to issues associated with eyes on the street.

2:51:32And also, I I'm not certain, but I my gut feeling tells me that there are

2:51:37challenges with stormwater maintenance on this as well,

2:51:41because we're just not able to put more into the ground.

2:51:44So I'd love to hear from staff on this place.

2:51:51Staff's position is in the proposed bylaw that we support the

2:51:55non projection of the garage.

2:51:57That's where staff stand for what Councillor Downer absolutely said.

2:52:01As far as safety, it's a septed issue as well.

2:52:03And it's the community look and feel and how how the design of the street and how

2:52:08when you walk up the street, how it feels and looks.

2:52:10So our recommendation, the report is our opinion.

2:52:16Thank you.

2:52:16I think her on her hand up and then back to the mover.

2:52:20Yes, thank you.

2:52:21Actually, my comments that were captured by by my colleagues that the two meters

2:52:26could go to the back of the property.

2:52:28This is an urban design issues.

2:52:29This is the only way we can control it.

2:52:31And just that staff's recommendation in this report comes out of a huge

2:52:38community consultation.

2:52:39And we heard this in the community that that how we plan our cities does

2:52:44does matter and those safety concerns, eyes on the street and aesthetics were

2:52:48were a factor in how people experience their their residential environment.

2:52:56Thank you. And to the mover, please.

2:52:58Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

2:52:59I just say my neighbourhood's got lots of lots of garages that have a projection.

2:53:04I work in my front room that's got a huge window.

2:53:07I see people go by on the sidewalk.

2:53:09The two meter garage projection is not egregious.

2:53:13What I think is overly prescriptive is requiring no projection at all.

2:53:17And then, you know, we don't like the cookie cutter houses, but there we're

2:53:20going to say exactly how all the houses should look.

2:53:23That if you've got a garage projection unit porch,

2:53:25I think that adds cost, actually.

2:53:27And I just think that we have lots and lots of neighbourhoods

2:53:31where there is a garage projection and there's ample eyes on the street.

2:53:35And there are lovely neighbourhoods.

2:53:39OK, thank you.

2:53:41Anything further?

2:53:43OK, I'm going to call the vote on that then.

2:53:48All. Is there anyone here that is against the motion that is being provided?

2:53:58So it's myself and Alt and Colosson and

2:54:07Busatil and Downer and Kate and Coran.

2:54:12So that fails. Back to you.

2:54:15Would you like to move anything else, Councillor O'Rourke?

2:54:18No, I'm your grassroot. That's it.

2:54:21OK, thank you so much.

2:54:23Just let me confer with the clerks, please.

2:54:47OK, well, why don't we go to?

2:54:49What about your I'm sorry, you just did the garage one, right?

2:54:52I'm sorry, that's right.

2:54:53I was going to say I was going to go back to you.

2:54:56OK, well, why don't we do?

2:55:01Let me just see if there's anything more on parking here for a moment here

2:55:17with the consultant here still standing by.

2:55:19I guess we'll go to Councillor Caton.

2:55:23Did you have a question through you to the consultant?

2:55:31So I was just running out for the three unit

2:55:34proposal for the resident residential.

2:55:37I know that we had it said that

2:55:41due to the size, there wouldn't be a requirement for accessible parking

2:55:45as a part of that.

2:55:46And I was just wondering is there a possibility for the city to provide

2:55:51permit accessible on street parking for

2:55:55disabled people who potentially are going to move into those units

2:55:58because I know that it's hard to get that parking on site afterwards

2:56:02if there's not enough space dedicated for it.

2:56:20Good afternoon, Councillor.

2:56:20I just Michael Jolinar from Be a Group.

2:56:22I'm the consultant to the mayor and Councillor Caton.

2:56:26I wasn't my scope with the parking work was simply for multi unit residential

2:56:31buildings. I did not assess the three unit buildings and accessible parking.

2:56:37It was outside of my scope.

2:56:38I don't I don't have anything to add there.

2:56:41OK, so then my mistake, I will ask staff that question.

2:56:45Well, we can wait before I go to Councillor Gibson for his motions on on driveways.

2:56:51What would stick on this topic because you brought it up?

2:56:53Let's get it answered for you right away.

2:56:55So staff three three units,

2:57:00triplexes, things like that, the parking requirement for accessibility.

2:57:03Can you help with that answer?

2:57:06Through the mayor to Councillor Caton.

2:57:08So on the demonstration plans, we showed an accessibility parking space.

2:57:12But under the building code, it's not required.

2:57:14So when it goes through for building permit, because there's no site plan process,

2:57:19it's not a requirement.

2:57:23I understand that.

2:57:24I was just wondering in the case of someone moving into those spaces,

2:57:28is there a way for the city to provide accessible on street parking?

2:57:33Is that something that we can do?

2:57:42I do I do believe I might need some clarification to look a little bit further.

2:57:46But I do believe we have provided a spot to someone previously in that situation.

2:57:51So we would have to look on an individual basis.

2:57:54Great. Thank you very much.

2:57:57Great. Thanks, Councillor Caton.

2:57:59All right, let me throw it on over to Councillor Gibson.

2:58:02And I got a few from you here as well or don't just to.

2:58:07So go ahead and figure out which one and the clerks can kind of follow along

2:58:13to put the right one up on the screen. OK.

2:58:15Yeah, thank you, through Mr. Mayor.

2:58:16I actually just submitted the one one motion is specific to the driveway width.

2:58:24All that's all that I circulated to staff and to Council.

2:58:28So I'll walk through it.

2:58:32Seconded by Councillor Goller. Thank you very much.

2:58:35Essentially, what this does is it does not go to the five meter minimum

2:58:40maximum driveway with that residents are currently not being is not being enforced.

2:58:45This is simply a subtle adjustment to the existing bylaw around semi-detached

2:58:51and on street townhomes only.

2:58:53And I want to say that again, semi-detached and on street townhomes only.

2:58:57This is not this is not speaking to a single detached homes.

2:59:01So in the case of the semi-detached dwellings,

2:59:05currently the bylaw states 50 percent or five meters, whichever is less.

2:59:09In the case of the minimum lot size in a semi-detached dwelling of eight meters,

2:59:14that allows someone to have a four meter driveway less than five.

2:59:19What this bylaw states is what this amendment states is that by going to 60

2:59:22percent, that that specific homeowner would now be allowed to have a four

2:59:27point eight meter driveway or point eight meter expansion of their driveway.

2:59:3280 centimeters, additionality on that one property.

2:59:38This is essentially wrapping our arms around what I would say about 85 percent

2:59:43of the people who are currently in harm's way of this bylaw.

2:59:46They've done a decorative walkway down the side of their driveway.

2:59:49They're not allowed to park their car wheels on it.

2:59:52It's permitted to be there, but they're not allowed to use it for parking.

2:59:54This would allow most of those people to get their vehicles off the road

2:59:58in the case of those minimum lot frontage units.

3:00:01So the eight meter wide semi-detached home.

3:00:04Secondly, when it comes to the on street townhouses, the minimum lot

3:00:08frontage for an on street townhouse in our city is six meters.

3:00:12So that bylaw would equate to 50 percent or five meters, whichever is less.

3:00:15In the case of a six meter wide home, that's a three meter driveway.

3:00:19And that's where a lot of the problems are in Ward one, two, four, six, a lot

3:00:24of households of, you know, just making ends meet, have expanded their driveway,

3:00:28put in a decorative walkway down the side, but have been caught.

3:00:31Through enforcement, because they put two wheels or parked half a car

3:00:37on that decorative walkway and they found themselves going to court.

3:00:40In this case, I've asked for 65 percent of the lot frontage or five

3:00:44meters, whichever is less.

3:00:45But in the worst case scenario, we're talking about a 3.9 meter driveway.

3:00:50So 90 centimeter expansion or relaxation of the bylaw, three feet,

3:00:55which would allow two compact cars to get off the road.

3:00:58And if you want to hear the math, the compact car, average width

3:01:00of the compact car is 5.2 feet.

3:01:02This would allow them to put two cars off the street in their townhouse

3:01:06driveway while still allowing two feet in between the vehicles and not being

3:01:10out of compliance with the bylaw.

3:01:13This is I've heard the concerns around council.

3:01:15This has been we've been five years at this now of relaxing the bylaw.

3:01:21And I'm trying to accommodate the voices around the horseshoe

3:01:23that do not want to see five meters for every single house in the city.

3:01:27And I acknowledge that.

3:01:28And so this is a subtle expansion or relaxation of the bylaw

3:01:31to really try and accommodate quite frankly.

3:01:35I'll use myself as an example.

3:01:37My wife and I bought a home in this town 12 years ago, 13 years ago now

3:01:42for under 400,000.

3:01:43And we got a single detached house for that price.

3:01:46Today, my wife and I, 10 years later, the family coming in behind us

3:01:51are paying 800 to $900,000 for a center row townhouse.

3:01:54They're being given essentially one parking spot and they're being asked

3:01:57to make ends meet.

3:01:58They've probably got twice the mortgage we ever had three times the mortgage

3:02:01we ever had and with far less space to do it.

3:02:05So this is this is this is absolutely a housing affordability issue.

3:02:10This is supporting homeowners.

3:02:12I just going door to door on my word, this is absolutely a new Canadian issue.

3:02:17This is absolutely a first time home buyer issue.

3:02:20This is absolutely a multi-generational housing issue.

3:02:24And so I thank Council for the conversation we've had over the last five years.

3:02:29I think it's the will of Council to support this this type of housing type.

3:02:34And I will leave my comments at that.

3:02:36Thank you.

3:02:38OK, thanks so much.

3:02:39It's been moved in second.

3:02:40And I'm going to go to Council or all please.

3:02:43Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:02:44Just a quick question to staff or perhaps it's to

3:02:48as I'm listening through this, I've heard that we have clearly

3:02:52been somewhat effective with the suspension of enforcement.

3:02:56And my question is if this were to pass, what would happen to the suspension

3:03:00of enforcement and what impact would that have on any reviewed

3:03:05strikes me, it would make a review moot, but I could be wrong on that as well.

3:03:11Street parking review of on street parking.

3:03:19Sorry, to you, Mayor Guthrie to Councillor All.

3:03:26The we would conduct the review as per normal where we're committed to doing that.

3:03:32The suspension would just continue as it is now.

3:03:37And I guess that's the bit of the conundrum.

3:03:39Why would we suspend it if we've changed the bylaw?

3:03:46Through you, Mayor Guthrie to Councillor All.

3:03:49It just gives us time to to do the review and to report back to Council.

3:03:55Thank you.

3:03:57Anything further on this before I call the vote, including comments,

3:04:00Councillor Kerr on, please.

3:04:03And then can I take this, Mr.

3:04:05Mayor, as I won't come as any surprise that I can't support the amendment.

3:04:11And yet I have sympathy for that particular built form in that particular area,

3:04:17where the design of that plan of subdivision and that those and some of the private

3:04:22condominium driveways that were built into that that form of development

3:04:28are part of the cause of the problem.

3:04:29And I think we need to address that through built form regulations and urban design

3:04:34and more communal parking lots for the overflow of cars.

3:04:39We have garages that are not being used as garages and side by side parking is not a right.

3:04:48It and we've talked about the need to increase the urban canopy.

3:04:52So where we have a problem in one part of town or one form of development,

3:04:57it it really has unintended consequences.

3:05:01I think it is best dealt with with with a future review and not embedded

3:05:06as of right in this bylaw.

3:05:08So those are some of the reasons why why I won't be supporting it.

3:05:11And I'm happy with the pause on enforcement while we go forward and look at this

3:05:18in different areas of the city and the impact that it will have.

3:05:22I think changing it now without fully understanding the impact

3:05:28is irresponsible for council to with in the absence of information to

3:05:35and then the last bit about that is that this was a huge consultative process.

3:05:41And we heard from the community about support and we have staff's recommendation

3:05:46in the report.

3:05:47I think we need to stick to to the input that we received on this one

3:05:51until we have a further review.

3:05:54OK, thank you.

3:05:55Thank you very much over just like to Councillor Pusantil.

3:05:59Then I'll call them.

3:06:00Oh, no, I'm sorry.

3:06:01If you don't mind, Councillor Pusantil, I did say, Kate and then over to you.

3:06:05Then I'll call the vote.

3:06:06Go ahead, Councillor Kate and sorry about that.

3:06:08Of course, through you, I just had some comments because originally,

3:06:13when I first heard about this before, I was on Council, I had a knee jerk reaction

3:06:16for the environment and things.

3:06:17And I understand where Councillor Caron is coming from.

3:06:20But after walking around in Ward One and actually seeing the neighborhoods

3:06:25and who's impacted, it's all smaller townhouses.

3:06:29And we've got a lot of very, very dense areas where there really isn't a lot of

3:06:33other options.

3:06:34Like even the on street parking is very, very limited and there's no local

3:06:39parking lots nearby.

3:06:40We don't have transit that goes into those areas.

3:06:43So we're basically creating hardship.

3:06:46And one of the things that we're trying to do as a part of our

3:06:50strategic plan is to make life more affordable.

3:06:53And when you've got a lot of families that are all living in these small units

3:06:57and we don't have any other options for them to get around, we don't have

3:07:00walkable communities for them right now.

3:07:02We are creating these hardships.

3:07:03So I think that this will help alleviate that until we can get the structures

3:07:08together.

3:07:09Thank you so much.

3:07:12And Councillor Pusantil.

3:07:14Thank you.

3:07:14I was going to say something similar to Councillor

3:07:16Kate and that walking around Ward for a lot of conversations around

3:07:22two cars on the driveway.

3:07:23And the comment about the garage, these are small in the one street.

3:07:27I'm thinking of in particular, that are row townhouses and the

3:07:31garage is where they keep their garbage bins, their municipal garbage bins.

3:07:34There's no other place other than pulling it into the house to have a

3:07:37garbage, a garbage bin there.

3:07:39And on street for this one particular neighborhood, they're competing with

3:07:43Conestoga College students that park on street.

3:07:45There is no availability of on street parking.

3:07:49But that's from my perspective and my experience in Ward four.

3:07:53And the type of housing really attracts young people that are entering that

3:07:58are trying to make ends meet and so on.

3:08:01Can I just get clarification?

3:08:03Because I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear the parking study is underway now and

3:08:10parking study is underway now.

3:08:12And just when is that anticipated?

3:08:15Because I think I'm okay to say that we won't enforce it, but not if it's

3:08:20going to be another five years or things like that, because people need

3:08:23some kind of a remedy.

3:08:25Just the timeline on that, please.

3:08:29It's you, Mayor Guthrie to Councillor.

3:08:32But still it's 2025 on the work plan for engineering and

3:08:37transportation, by understanding.

3:08:40Sorry.

3:08:40Thank you.

3:08:41Just 2025 is the work or it's coming to council in 2025.

3:08:48It's on the work plan to start in 2025.

3:08:51I'm going to go through.

3:09:00Perfect.

3:09:02Uh, I have, uh, three, four more people, but, but the fourth, I'm going to end

3:09:09with the mover.

3:09:09Okay.

3:09:10So I'll go, uh, or work and then alt and then billings and then back to the

3:09:16mover and, uh, I'll call the vote then go ahead, uh, go ahead, please.

3:09:24Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:09:25Uh, just a couple of comments, uh, and I, I think, uh, Councillor Gibson for

3:09:28bringing this forward.

3:09:30One of the first conversations I had when I was door knocking in 2018 was with

3:09:34a gentleman who lived in a townhouse.

3:09:36Uh, he and his wife were shifts.

3:09:38They had just, you know, put a little walkway up alongside the driveway, uh, so

3:09:42that they didn't have to shuffle the cars when one came home late and another was,

3:09:46was leaving early.

3:09:47And he was really distraught by the size of the fine for having parked on his

3:09:52walkway.

3:09:53And he said to me, he said, it's two weeks pay.

3:09:56And he was practically in tears.

3:09:58So there are a lot of people who are just getting by, who are just trying to get

3:10:05to work and pay the mortgage.

3:10:08And having that little walkway there, uh, doesn't make the ground any less

3:10:14permeable.

3:10:15If it's there as a walkway, it makes no difference whether you put a tire on it

3:10:18or not.

3:10:20And some people do actually quite a lovely job.

3:10:23And in a lot of instances, they, it's quite decorative.

3:10:27They can have trees.

3:10:28It's often the two townhouses side by side will have sort of a common front yard.

3:10:33Um, so the permeability piece, I understand, but I don't buy completely because

3:10:38you can also put a concrete patio in your backyard and we don't have any

3:10:41restrictions on that.

3:10:43So the other reason why I think this is an important amendment is if you drive up

3:10:48Edinburgh or, you know, you see townhouses on arterial roads, those folks actually

3:10:54can't get out and shuffle the vehicles if they're one behind the other, because

3:10:59they're on an arterial, it just makes things really difficult.

3:11:02So I think that if we wait, we will have a massive enforcement issue because these

3:11:08wideened driveways are absolutely everywhere.

3:11:11And this would help us get our arms around that.

3:11:14And at the same time, I would urge people before you widen your driveway, check

3:11:18the bylaw, it can be quite costly.

3:11:21So thanks, Mayor Guthrie and thanks, Councillor Gibson.

3:11:26Yes.

3:11:27And thank you for your comments.

3:11:28I believe I said, um, alt and then, uh, buildings.

3:11:32And then I also saw a caller's hand go up.

3:11:36Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

3:11:37Um, in the past, I have not supported this, but, uh, perhaps surprisingly, some

3:11:42of my colleagues, I'm actually going to support this.

3:11:44And I'm going to support it because I think that, uh, Councillor

3:11:47Kate and actually made some very effective arguments on, uh, on the

3:11:50differences that we recognize within our community.

3:11:53Um, I'm going to steal a line from William Lyme, the Kenzie King, and its, uh,

3:11:58enforcement, if necessary, but not necessarily enforcement, I suppose.

3:12:01But the real challenge here is, is that, uh, I as a, um, as a councillor for an

3:12:06urban ward need to make decisions for those living in the suburbs as well.

3:12:10And, and I think we as counselors are supposed to do that all the time.

3:12:13That's why we've put a library in for all of the community, a south end

3:12:17rec center, and even why we have a bus system.

3:12:19We might not necessarily use any of them.

3:12:22We might not necessarily live in the suburbs, but we need to recognize that

3:12:26we are building and growing a whole city.

3:12:29Um, I'm not holding my nose.

3:12:31I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

3:12:33I have concerns with groundwater.

3:12:36I have concerns with aesthetics and I have concerns with, uh, the challenges

3:12:41that we have in a society that is very much automobile dependent.

3:12:45So for this, uh, uh, I'm doing a complete about face.

3:12:51Okay.

3:12:51Thank you.

3:12:52Uh, Billings, then Galler, then we're going to go back to the mover and then

3:12:56we'll, we'll look to call the vote.

3:13:00And for you, uh, Mr.

3:13:02Mayor, and that is councillor Gibson is dealing with table, uh, 5.10.

3:13:07So that was going to, that's my amendment of which the amendment you already

3:13:12moved that council voted on.

3:13:14So do you want me to move the amendment now?

3:13:17Under table 5.10, or do you want me to do it after you deal with this issue

3:13:23with Councillor Gibson's motion?

3:13:31Just, can you dumb that down for me?

3:13:34What's going on here?

3:13:36So the second clause that we voted on when I moved those two amendments, it's

3:13:41really an amendment to table 5.

3:13:44So let me just interrupt Councillor Billings.

3:13:47I'm asking you, do you want me to do it later?

3:13:52Was Councillor Billings in the room when we took the vote on that confirmation?

3:13:57Did you maybe so Councillor Billings, just let me ask you a question.

3:14:00Sorry, it's difficult with you not being here.

3:14:03So I apologize with the delay, but, um, your motion when it came up before our

3:14:09lunch break had, um, we were only dealing with number one of your motion, which

3:14:15just had to do with the width of a property and then allowing a double garage.

3:14:20Um, on the screen, though, there was a bunch of other motions that actually had

3:14:26to do with exactly what we're talking about now.

3:14:29And we realized that we had accidentally from a, from on the screen perspective,

3:14:34we actually looked to be, we seemed to be looking to support all those changes

3:14:40for driveway widths.

3:14:42When we came back after lunch, we had a confirmation vote that was unanimous.

3:14:49To only confirm the number one, the first and only portion of the motion

3:14:55that came up on the screen for you, only to do with the double garage issue.

3:15:03Were you missing maybe for that motion?

3:15:07No, I, I wasn't.

3:15:08That's not my issue.

3:15:09Everything you said, my issue is there was only a second clause to that.

3:15:15And that second clause relates now to the driveway with under table 5.10.

3:15:22And that's what counselor Gibson is dealing with is driveway with under table

3:15:285.10.

3:15:29So my question was, do you want me to move that second clause now as an amendment?

3:15:33Or do you want to deal with it after we vote on counselor Gibson's motion?

3:15:53Yeah, the clerks and I conferred, we agree on after.

3:15:58Okay, so then my comment speaking to the motion then is because of the exemption

3:16:05that's in place now, I can, I can tell you it has been a welcome to reprieve not to have

3:16:10all the calls and emails regarding the driveway with because it is, it is a big

3:16:17issue for ward four.

3:16:18And I just wanted to thank counselor Gibson for, for bringing this matter forward.

3:16:25Okay.

3:16:25Thank you for sure.

3:16:27Counselor Guller, it looks like counselor Downer wants to jump in one more time and

3:16:32I will go.

3:16:34Oh, okay.

3:16:35My fault.

3:16:35My apologies.

3:16:37Guller and then Downer for the first time and then back to the mover.

3:16:43Thank you for your worship.

3:16:45I am happy to be be supporting this motion.

3:16:48I think we have many issues that impact a subset of our community that

3:16:56happen to live in lots that I think unfortunately they were not designed

3:17:00appropriately to accommodate the lifestyles of our residents.

3:17:05And I wanted to clarify as part of those of my comments that the review of

3:17:10on street parking is not going to be a solution to this issue.

3:17:15We're not suddenly going to be able to create more parking spaces on Cullen Crescent

3:17:19or those other parts of the city.

3:17:21We I'm looking forward to regulating on parking throughout the city of Guelph.

3:17:26But even if we were to do that, it's not going to create more spots on many of the

3:17:30neighborhoods that are impacted by the driveway with under restrictions on

3:17:36parking on those walkways.

3:17:38Thank you.

3:17:40Thank you.

3:17:42Downer, please.

3:17:44So just a question through you, Mr.

3:17:46Mirage staff.

3:17:47So my understanding is that the concern was for the changes that any other kind of

3:17:54reduction in these regulations would compromise stormwater management on

3:18:00private property and the survival of trees planted and trees canopy.

3:18:06Is that what I was heard through Mr.

3:18:09Mayor to Council.

3:18:12Downer, that is the concern.

3:18:13If it's 3.9 meters, I believe that was the 65% calculation that these 1.1 meters

3:18:20for stormwater infiltration as well as a tree.

3:18:23As well as a tree and we know we need 3 meters for a tree to survive healthly.

3:18:27Okay.

3:18:29So I think Brent Hoderian said it well last year.

3:18:33Guelph is not as green as it thinks it is.

3:18:35We had an opportunity with the Zoning By-law to fix that.

3:18:40These wrongs do not make rights.

3:18:43So anyway, he did point that out when we talked to him and when we had him in as a speaker.

3:18:49We're compromising the survival of trees.

3:18:54You can plant them, but they're not going to survive.

3:18:57And we're compromising stormwater management in the city of Guelph if we approve this.

3:19:03So I just I'm just quoting him what he said to us.

3:19:07We're not as green as we think we are.

3:19:11Okay.

3:19:12Thank you for your opinions.

3:19:13And now I will go to the mover.

3:19:18Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

3:19:19So notwithstanding those comments, I acknowledge that that's a concern.

3:19:23That's been a concern for the last 5 years since we paused enforcement.

3:19:27And I'm happy to say that the sky hasn't fallen on residential neighborhoods to date.

3:19:33So that being said, what I I acknowledge that the on-street parking study is coming.

3:19:39And for the next 2 years, there'll be a continued pause on enforcement.

3:19:41But I'm not here to defend the defense lists like some people have done an egregious job of

3:19:46paving over a lot more of their front yard than they should have.

3:19:49They're putting 2, 3 cars up on it.

3:19:51That's not what this is about, even though sometimes it's being characterized as that.

3:19:55What this does today is it probably lets hundreds if not thousands of residents know

3:20:02that the pressure's off.

3:20:04Like they can relax a little bit that as soon as this enforcement comes back,

3:20:08that walkway that they're putting their second car on, they're going back to court.

3:20:11And the court charges up to $1,600.

3:20:14I've interviewed seniors over this.

3:20:16I've I've interviewed new Canadians over this.

3:20:19This is a real issue on the ground.

3:20:20And in Ward 1, it was up to 150 or 160 homes were being taken to court over over over that

3:20:27specific issue.

3:20:27So what this does, the extra three feet on the six foot six meter wide is just gives

3:20:33those people a breath and gives those people peace of mind that it's not coming,

3:20:39that that inevitability of, oh, as soon as someone calls on me, I'm going to court.

3:20:42That's gone.

3:20:43Now, the rest of them that are widening their driveway beyond that,

3:20:47that gives them the the on street parking study gives them two years.

3:20:50No, it is listen, you better get it in order because this enforcement is coming back.

3:20:54But for the meantime, everyone take a breath.

3:20:57Residents can go back to peace of mind and we don't have neighbors calling on neighbors.

3:21:02And and it just settles the issue.

3:21:04So again, thanks for everyone who spoke and support.

3:21:08And it's been a good conversation.

3:21:10It's been six years.

3:21:12I'm glad it's I'm glad it's coming to a close.

3:21:14Hopefully today.

3:21:17Okay.

3:21:18My comments are quick and I'll call the vote.

3:21:21So I was going to ask about the risks just out loud, even though staff had already been

3:21:26very clear about it in the reports and I wasn't going to do it, but counselor downer did it for

3:21:29me.

3:21:30And I just actually want to fully acknowledge those risks exactly as counselor downer said.

3:21:37At the same time, though, I I do believe that this is for for me.

3:21:43This is a moment to try it as is proposed in this amendment over the next maybe five years

3:21:49because we're going to be looking at always updating things anyways.

3:21:52I would like to see the results of something like this to actually get an idea of how it

3:21:58can move forward or not.

3:21:59And we can amend in the future if necessary.

3:22:02But yeah, I will be supporting this and I I cannot say I mean each of you are giving the

3:22:07you know the lens of in my word in my word in my word.

3:22:10I mean it was it was just becoming a major issue in Ward 4 when I was the counselor there

3:22:14where both Linda and Christina are now I'm sure they're hearing about it.

3:22:19But now you know, as the mayor like I hear it everywhere across the entire city how much

3:22:26of a difficult situation this is.

3:22:29And it's extremely punitive.

3:22:31It's extremely punitive on someone's own property.

3:22:35It just it just rubs me the wrong way.

3:22:37And I'd like to just see this.

3:22:39Yeah, be put to be put to rest.

3:22:41And so again, I think Councillor Gibson for for bringing this forward as well.

3:22:48Okay, with that, I'll just call the vote then.

3:22:49So I'll just ask it in this in this way.

3:22:53All those not in favor, please raise your hand.

3:22:59Okay, so all those not in favor.

3:23:01So it's Karan and downer.

3:23:04Okay, so that passes.

3:23:07And by the way, Councillor Katelyn is on and she is in favor.

3:23:11She did let me know just so her screen isn't on but but she's there.

3:23:15Okay.

3:23:16And so let me go to you, Councillor Billings, because of the the other part of the of your

3:23:22motion then, which I had ready to go.

3:23:27It's the bottom one that it's the second clause that Dylan had put up before Mr.

3:23:33Yeah.

3:23:34And it's still dealing with the same table.

3:23:37Table 5.10.

3:23:41Yeah.

3:23:42Okay.

3:23:43So can you just explain that for us?

3:23:45So if well, it's an amendment.

3:23:48It's an amendment.

3:23:49It's an amendment.

3:23:50So I need a seconder.

3:23:53Yeah.

3:23:54So it's in relation somewhat.

3:23:55So yeah.

3:23:56Okay.

3:23:56Go Gibson will second.

3:23:58Go ahead.

3:23:59Okay.

3:24:01Oh, I just lost it.

3:24:02Okay.

3:24:03So it it falls in line with the amendment that we did a while ago.

3:24:12And so what it means.

3:24:16I'm just scrolling here to to try to find it because I had lost it.

3:24:20So with the the width of the attached garage, which we supported that amendment.

3:24:26So now you can have a double car garage, which takes up five and a half meters under the

3:24:32maximum residential driveway width for and again, I'm only under row two zone RL two single

3:24:42detached that the amendment only pertains to the single detached.

3:24:48And so what it means is you can build your double car garage and it'll be five and a half meters,

3:24:54but then the driveway in keeping in line with the garage should be five and a half meters as well.

3:25:01However, how the zoning is written right now, it just says max of five meters.

3:25:07So the amendment again does the two things so that the driveway can be in line with the garage.

3:25:13And it also maintains that 50% landscape area in the front yard.

3:25:19So not going over 50% and you still have the room for landscaping and trees and such.

3:25:25And again, if we don't support this, then builders would have to go to community adjustment

3:25:30because the driveway wouldn't line up with the garage.

3:25:34Okay, I understand now. So yeah, thanks Councillor Downer. She said it better than I.

3:25:42Okay, so because of what we did with Councillor Billings first one, we have to also say, well,

3:25:48the driveway can also match what we did. If we don't do it, then it's going to be a smaller

3:25:53driveway as they go up to a larger garage. So I get it.

3:25:57That's correct, Mr. Mayor. All right, perfect. It's been moved and seconded.

3:26:03I don't think I need to really ask. We're good here. I'm going to call the vote. Okay. All right.

3:26:08All those not in favor of this, raise your hand.

3:26:12Okay. Quran is not in favor. Okay. So that passes. All right. Nothing further from you,

3:26:22right? Councillor Billings. Oh, that's correct. Okay. All right. Thank you.

3:26:29All right, we're going to keep moving here. Why don't we do Councillor Downer?

3:26:38You have one, I think you and Councillor Quran had one that wanted to bring forward.

3:26:45I'll turn the mic over to you. Okay. Councillor Quran has.

3:26:48Oh, Councillor Quran. Okay. I'm so sorry. Councillor Quran, do you want to bring it forward?

3:26:52Sure. I will just get clarification from Ms. Watts as well, because you saw the dialogue that

3:26:59went back and forth on that. The intent here is to address the three bedrooms. We previously

3:27:07had a regulation that accessory units within a primary dwelling were limited to two,

3:27:15and an additional residential dwelling unit is also limited to two. The new had three.

3:27:25And I think we can all agree that there are places where that, in a larger primary dwelling unit,

3:27:31where that can happen. But there's also in townhouses, semis, and small cottage dwellings

3:27:38where an accessory unit with three bedrooms usually means it's the living room or dining

3:27:42room that's being converted. So the intent here was to remove the three bedroom reference,

3:27:49but to allow for the full use of a basement for an accessory dwelling unit, where that's

3:27:57appropriate. So the back and forth in questioning with staff about an appropriate motion was

3:28:07the result of the motion, the recommended motion amendment that I sent to clerks for your consideration

3:28:17this afternoon. And that, I just want to clarify that the intent and the solution is what is being

3:28:26proposed with Abby and that the removal of that regulation will accomplish that.

3:28:34Sure. We'll go to her and it is just to confirm it is seconded by Councillor Downer. So it's

3:28:41just she's on the floor. And oh sorry, go ahead to the mover. Yeah, and the other thing, while

3:28:47Abby's coming up to the mic, that what we didn't get in this email exchange regarding this removal

3:28:55of this clause was whether staff were in support or whether staff had any concerns about that. I

3:29:02know with some of the other one staff came out and were very clear we do not support this.

3:29:06I didn't see a comment from staff that they are not in support of this recommended of this

3:29:14motion and just wanted to ensure they had an opportunity to comment whether there were

3:29:19any concerns with it. So through you, America, through you to Councillor Kerron, this motion will

3:29:27remove the permission for three bedrooms within a basement additional residential dwelling unit.

3:29:33That's the only situation where we added three bedrooms through the proposed zoning bylaw.

3:29:40Staff originally in 2020 proposed three bedrooms for additional residential dwelling units.

3:29:51And so this is why based on the request at the statutory public meeting, we've included the

3:29:56three bedrooms in the proposed bylaw. Thank you. I hope you don't mind I'm just going to jump in

3:30:05because I need clarity here. Maybe everyone's thinking what I'm thinking or maybe I'm the only

3:30:09one is if what if what Councillor Kerron and Downer are proposing passed, could that mean there could

3:30:22be four bedrooms in the basement? Because it says the additional dwelling unit can take up the entirety

3:30:29of the of a basement instead of a percentage. Like right now there's like a percentage of the

3:30:34basement, right? Or some kind of a portion of square footage based on the like I believe I'm

3:30:42saying the right things. Could you could you dumb it down for me? Sure. To you Mayor Guthrie, additional

3:30:48residential dwelling units are limited to two bedrooms and so that applies for any ARDU. This

3:30:56section here that we're looking at right now allowed for three bedrooms in the basement. So it was an

3:31:00exemption from the two bedrooms. So what okay I'm going to go to the mover. What are you trying to

3:31:08what are you trying to do here? Like again just dumb it down for me and probably others. What is the

3:31:14what is the purpose of this motion? The purpose of the motion is to remove the three bedrooms from

3:31:20the regulation. And you know one of the reasons for that is we have the new accessory dwelling unit

3:31:27in as a detached form of housing. And we have the new regulations encouraging the conversion of

3:31:37basement apartments. We have accessory dwelling units now allowed in semi-detached and townhouses.

3:31:44So we've had a lot of density added through new accessory dwelling unit legislation. And I'm in

3:31:52support of those but we haven't measured the impact. We've done it all bang bang bang bang

3:31:58and we don't have enough information to add another bedroom to add that third bedroom. I think we need

3:32:07to see what the impact of all this additional density that we've already added is going to be

3:32:13and come back maybe three four years come back and say you know what it hasn't had the impact

3:32:17that we expected that it might. And then I would wholeheartedly support three bedrooms but I can't

3:32:23support three bedrooms now because we have no way of knowing what the impact of all this additional

3:32:29density and our dues will have on existing sites. I need more information. I need evidence that there's

3:32:36no there's no impact before I can go to three bedrooms. Okay okay you've made it very clear for

3:32:41sure. I'm going to go to the seconder just to pipe in as well and then I'll open it up for questions

3:32:46only on the proposal in front of us okay. So to the seconder and then open up for questions.

3:32:53So for me it's about consistency so we have if you're put your ADRU anywhere else on the behind

3:32:59your house or beside your house or in your attic or wherever it's two bedrooms. And this is owning

3:33:07bylaws coming forward and saying okay it's but you can only have two bedrooms everywhere else and

3:33:14now it's only it's three in the basement. And the reason it was two bedrooms through that ADRU

3:33:20the additional residential unit process was in part because of the mostly because of the the

3:33:28public input we had regarding this issue. So that was it was in response to public input around this

3:33:35issue and mostly the area and why you heard from the Maclderay community the area surrounding the

3:33:41university and what what the additional rooms so you can have if you allow this you can have three

3:33:47five four you could have nine nine in this case nine people living with cars on on these sites and

3:33:56on in houses and it's significantly and people can say oh that's not going to happen. Well we have

3:34:02investors in wealth at own 30 houses in our area so it is going to happen and it becomes a real

3:34:09becomes a significant problem in neighbourhoods. So this is just something to help help with that

3:34:15issue and responds to the letter from the Maclderay community. Okay okay thank you. All right I so I'm

3:34:23just going to confirm with the clerks for a second everybody yes okay so the clerks just want councillor

3:34:34Koran to confirm that the motion that's coming up on the screen is the one that you're we're just

3:34:41making sure we're on the right topic. Yep okay great thank you. Just before I go to questions everybody

3:34:53oh it looks like I'm going to go to staff but just before I go to staff in 2020 staff said that we

3:35:01should have gentle density and allow three bedrooms and basement apartments. We said no they're saying

3:35:08to do it again okay so that is their position. This is an alternative position which is totally fine

3:35:15but I just want us to not be like and what's your position they we know their position

3:35:21we've known it for three years so Christa over to you. Thank you Marika three and just to provide

3:35:27clarification on the two bedrooms the three bedrooms and perhaps why it's not clear from the

3:35:31motion so what is missing from the well the motion is correct but what it has done is removed the last

3:35:38part of the sentence of that specific provision that says and may contain three bedrooms so it

3:35:44stops before that so that's this the clarity around the bedroom issue. Yep okay anything new

3:35:51questions that are required of this motion I'm going to go out there. Thank you very much

3:35:57through you Mr. Mayor to staff I have no real problems with the motion per se and the direction

3:36:04of it. My concern is actually with the word entirety. I think it's it it flags something

3:36:12and I'm not certain that we necessarily wish any basement to be the entirety. There are there is

3:36:19infrastructure and other challenges in many basements. There's one even comment on that please.

3:36:26Through you Marika three to Councillor Allt this is the existing language that was approved in 2020

3:36:32and the intent was to allow people to utilize the space in their basements. We were running into a

3:36:38lot of issues where the 45% was causing issues for bunglows so the entirety of the basement

3:36:45there'll be mechanical rooms and some some floor area discounted from that but it just reduces the

3:36:50committee of adjustment requests. Thank you I'll tell my wife I can still sleep behind the furnace.

3:37:06Caller please. Thank you through your worship but just to be absolutely clear because I think I do

3:37:12not support this motion but I just want to make sure through staff if we were to approve this then

3:37:17people could use the entirety of the basement but only up to two bedrooms. If we vote this motion down

3:37:25then people could use the entirety of the basement up to three bedrooms. Is that is that clear? That's

3:37:32correct yeah. Thank you so that's that's for clarity. So I will not be supporting this. Sorry can you

3:37:39say that one more time? Yes. If you support this what? Then you can have the entirety of the basement

3:37:44up to two bedrooms in that unit. If you vote this down then you can still build the entirety of the

3:37:51basement up to three bedrooms. So to support gentle density density I will be voting against this motion

3:37:58that limits basement units to two bedrooms as opposed to the three bedrooms that staff are

3:38:04recommending. Thank you. Okay thank you and and O'Rourke I think and then I think Claeson. Yep.

3:38:11Thank you Mary I got three through you to council. I had the same question as councillor

3:38:16Caller and while I initially supported the two-bedroom limit for a basement apartment I've

3:38:22heard from lots of folks in my church who work with immigrant families who are desperately looking

3:38:27for three bedrooms and so especially in a in a big home where this works I know I've changed my

3:38:36perspective on this and I won't support the the motion I do support this staff recommendation in

3:38:43this case. Okay thank you. Claeson is next and then I did see Koran. Not to drag this out but for my

3:38:54own clarity does this mean that currently we can't have three bedrooms in basement apartments?

3:39:01So they're okay okay thank you. So let's be let's be really clear staff came three years ago and said

3:39:08we should allow three bedrooms and apartments. Council voted that down which is there right they

3:39:13voted it down because we were doing the new zoning update staff said we really got to do the three

3:39:19bedrooms again so that is their recommendation so that is embedded in the zoning bylaw today to do

3:39:26three. This amendment says no let's go back not allow three okay so if you vote for the amendment

3:39:37what you're saying is you want to limit it to two vote against it then you're saying you agree with

3:39:42the staff recommendation to allow three. Go back to you. Okay thank you that's that's the clarification

3:39:48I was looking for and then as a follow-up and I'm sorry I'm not super familiar with planning stuff

3:39:54yet so in those in a basement apartment would there be requirements for common spaces like kitchen

3:40:01living room area on top of those bedrooms like you wouldn't be converting a like what should be like a

3:40:06living space into a bedroom? Yeah through Mayor Guthrie to Council Claeson there's there's a lot

3:40:14of requirements around it including even building the bedroom sizes so it's not every property

3:40:20can have three bedrooms as a right it depends on the size and the makeup and exiting and windows and

3:40:25yeah a lot of factors go into it so not every house can have a basement apartment depending on

3:40:31grades and everything else as well. Thank you. Great I'm just going to go to uh Kate who has a

3:40:38statement and uh then I looks like I can go back to the mover Karan for a final statement before I

3:40:44call the vote. Through you Mr. Mayor um I I know that the focus has been on students but I know a

3:40:54lot of families that um can't really afford a lot of the units that are there currently and they've

3:41:01got multiple children so limiting basement apartments to just two bedrooms is really reducing the amount

3:41:08of space that single parent families and none of the people can actually afford to live in so um

3:41:16I'm not going to be supporting it for that reason. Okay thank you and back to the mover please.

3:41:23Yeah thank you just to and gentle density absolutely uh families with children absolutely

3:41:29primary dwellings can have four or five bedrooms um I'm I just want to respond so that there isn't

3:41:35an impression that I'm not in support of that additional density in our in our uh our residential

3:41:40neighborhoods um three years ago we didn't have the backyard uh detached single uh uh entity

3:41:49arduous we've added that so we have two bedroom uh accessory detached dwelling in the backyard

3:41:56including townhouses and we have a primary dwelling it could be five six bedrooms and now we would

3:42:03have a three bedroom accessory units again uh the intensity of what could happen the unintended

3:42:10consequences could be anywhere from 10 to 12 persons on a single family lot with cars um and

3:42:18again it's it's just unintended consequences I would be willing to support three bedrooms at a

3:42:22later date but with the additional single detached dwellings in backyards we do not have a measure

3:42:28of the impact of that so I think I think it's just premature that's all um it may come back in the

3:42:33future and I'll support it wholeheartedly just not right now. Okay thank you to the mover okay I'll

3:42:41just have very quick comments they won't be shocking to anybody I think the decision um three years ago

3:42:47has um was was wrong at that time um and uh in my view hearing even some of my colleagues talk about

3:42:55some of the uh comments that they've had from people I believe it's contributed to some of the

3:43:02housing crisis that we've had in the last three years uh we are in a housing crisis and we need

3:43:06to be able to give people options this is an option especially uh exactly as Councillor Caton

3:43:14articulated very well with all the different types of people that may be looking for those types of

3:43:20units uh Councillor O'Rourke same type of commentary uh about refugees immigrants that are coming

3:43:27families single parents whatever it is individuals that are looking for these these types of options

3:43:32and I think the the argument I would just say uh respectfully against Councillor Caron

3:43:38or others in regards to let's see how the tiny house thing does in the backyard

3:43:42well tiny houses are like 200 to 300 thousand dollars they're not cheap but you know what redoing

3:43:50your basement into an apartment for somebody you know maybe I don't know 60,000 80,000 I don't know

3:44:00depends how much garage sale stuff and kajiji stuff you buy but you know you can do it for

3:44:04pretty cheap it's not 200 300 thousand dollars so we're we need to be able to offer um people choice

3:44:12when it comes to how they can live in this city and this is yet another choice and I'll just repeat

3:44:19what staff said three years ago this is gentle density this is exactly what we want so I obviously

3:44:26will not be supporting this uh this uh this motion uh but I fully appreciate why Councillor Downer

3:44:35and uh Caron are bringing it forward especially I do recognize uh based on some of the commentary of

3:44:41the people that are in their ward that have concerns but I I do believe as Councillor

3:44:47Alt said in the last uh motion about driveway widths we're here to try to help as many people

3:44:51across the entire community not those that have risks maybe only or fears only in one little area

3:44:59so with that I'll call the vote those that I'm going to ask uh those that are against this

3:45:05motion to please raise your hand so that's myself Gibson, Klosson, Alt, uh Gawler, Boussatill,

3:45:16Chiu, Katen Richardson, Billings, or Rourke. Okay thank you so that's been settled I appreciate

3:45:26that let's keep moving along why don't we just go to why don't we go just go to mine um that should

3:45:36be I think pretty easy um so do you have mine ready that you can put up on the okay I can't I

3:45:43guess I can't officially uh put it on the floor but I think Councillor Goller mentioned that he

3:45:48would be willing to do that and I'll look around the room or the screen if there's a seconder um

3:45:53it's that staff consider as of right permissions for greater than three units

3:45:57per property within the low density residential uh designation and to report back to council with

3:46:02options and recommendations by the end of Q1 2024 is there a seconder for for that you can't second

3:46:10the motion that you table Councillor Goller is there a seconder for that uh Gibson will will

3:46:16second that thank you so if I could just give a little bit of a preamble uh I was you know hot to

3:46:21trot to come on in here and say let's let's make four plexus ready to go right now um I think I

3:46:29think personally that's probably the right decision at a minimum but in consultation with staff prior

3:46:35to me wanting to come and try to do that they mentioned there's like there's a lot to consider

3:46:40there there's an engagement part there's parking or non-parking or there's setbacks or there like

3:46:47there's just there's amenity space there's all this kind of stuff that was done very thoroughly

3:46:55if I could add around the uh demonstration of a triplex or three units that similar type of

3:47:02consideration should be given to anything over and above three uh so in hearing staff's feedback

3:47:10I agreed which is why I'm not coming in to just say let's do it that they would prefer to have

3:47:16the time in the runway to do the proper engagement and discussion and review on something over that

3:47:22that is why this motion is here today so it's something that could come in the future maybe

3:47:27if this motion passes for some staff to review it um and that's that's my position I won't go

3:47:32any further that's that's what it is so is there any questions on this at all by anybody before we

3:47:37move forward I'll go down her first and then Guller and Gibson so I have an amendment um yes so

3:47:46my amendment is to change it to Q1 2025 um for this there's a seconder for that Guller

3:47:57Guller will suck and I'll just tell you why one thing one thing is around staff capacity I mean

3:48:03they're going to have to deal with the next year they're dealing with bill 23 they're going to come

3:48:07back with all the changes in OP 80 I mean there's a lot of work to be done uh in staff for staff

3:48:15right now so let's let's give it time let's give it time to see how these triplexes um start rolling

3:48:21out and have some experience with the triplexes that we're implementing now before we start looking

3:48:27at moving to for practice so I I'd like to see a two-year window instead of a one-year window

3:48:32for that to come back okay questions on this before I continue Guller just on the just on this

3:48:40amendment that's on the floor okay uh through 20 25 uh through worship to staff um I I'm quite

3:48:47eager to see more than more than three places I think three places are are the right direction

3:48:52but regarding the timing can you please speak to us a little bit about what it would be like to come

3:48:59back at the beginning of 2024 versus 2025 yeah so so just to be clear could you come back Q1 2024

3:49:11with enough data for us or is that additional you're required um through the mayor to Councillor

3:49:18Guller so I think we can look at it and come back in 2024 we've done some started our research on it

3:49:23and we'll continue to do that um as we move forward if if it gets derailed because of

3:49:29more changes to the planning act or or other items that we have to implement first we'll report back

3:49:34to council on a delay if there is one okay okay well with that information uh I will be voting

3:49:40against uh this amendment thank you okay thank you again only questions on the amendment

3:49:47questions on the 2025 horizon go ahead um I think through you mayor got three to staff does this

3:49:54line up with the parking permit like the research that we're doing on about on-street parking through

3:50:02the mayor to Councillor Castern it would be in advance of that so we wouldn't have any data

3:50:08to understand what the impact of the triplexes would be on on-street parking and no time to

3:50:15implement potentially like permitted parking for example during the winter that is correct thank you

3:50:21okay thank you uh back to the mover I'm sorry I'll vote with the question I'll first and I'll go back

3:50:26to the mover of the amendment so it's a Rourke yeah go ahead oh you're uh you're muted Dominique

3:50:36sorry about that through you to staff um

3:50:41I kind of like the additional time especially in light of Councillor Castern's remarks or I'm

3:50:47just wondering say there was there all kinds of lot sizes in the city say there was quite a large lot

3:50:54and somebody wanted to put a fourplex or something else on it could they still just do a regular

3:51:00development application and come to council and ask for that so saying it's three today we'll look

3:51:07at it it'll come back in 2025 but if somebody wanted to do a fourplex or more in the interim

3:51:13they could still come to council right through Mayor Guthrie to Councillor O'Rourke that is correct

3:51:21okay thanks thank you I'll go back to the mover okay yeah so I just want to say this respectfully

3:51:28though where has the direction come from to do direction on four or more plexes

3:51:35council hasn't directed staff to look into that yet so I'm just sort of where has that direction

3:51:41come from you just said that you've already done some research I'm just sort of like I didn't know

3:51:46about that it's it's in the motion and there's an attachment in the staff report with a demonstration

3:51:52plan of four units oh you've only done the demonstration plan for four plex you haven't done

3:51:57because the motion is more than four plexes even it's like it could be six plexes that's what

3:52:02is intentioned the motion is for more than three we have just done four at this point in time and

3:52:10that's all we we commit to bringing back is information in January 2024 oh so you've only

3:52:15committed to bringing back information on four plexes in 2024 so given that information I think

3:52:22I support my motion even more because I think the motion is looking at you know four plexes five

3:52:29plexes six plexes is that not your intention mr. mirror I think yes it is staff have indicated to

3:52:34me that there are a lot sizes that could definitely accommodate more than four and so the current

3:52:42zoning as of right proportion would limit then the ability for people to actually do more than three

3:52:50I I'm not questioning that because I was supporting looking at that but I'm just saying

3:52:56staff have only committed to looking at four for next year it's a good let's look up more than if

3:53:02if you want to look up more than this have another year thank you okay so I am not in favor of the

3:53:11amendment because the very first question from councillor Goller was could you do it by 2024

3:53:17and the answer from staff was yes and so just like the last motion that we just had which is

3:53:23about offering people choice and we are in a housing crisis if we have more choice presented to us in

3:53:30a year I would I think that compels us to get choices quicker and sooner so that we can try

3:53:38to address the crisis that we're in so I would I would ask that since staff said they can do it by

3:53:442024 that you we go with what staff are saying so I'll call the vote on the amendment for 2025

3:53:53all in I'll just say anyone against anyone against it raise your hand

3:54:00so Gibson myself and galler and Richardson okay so that fails thank you you got that clerks

3:54:10clerks you got that okay four people against uh no no no hold on no no no hold on who are you

3:54:23mr. mayor I've got four I may have asked the wrong questions and I may what did I say I'm so sorry

3:54:28what did I what did I say um what how did I call the question did I call the question

3:54:32against or or for I can't remember mr. mayor when you called the vote you asked members of council

3:54:37indicated they were voting against and we have four members of council who voted against the

3:54:41amendment to the amendment so it passes that's correct that's right the amendment is carried I just

3:54:46wanted to make sure that you you caught though the four names that I set out yes we're good I have

3:54:51mayor got three councillor Gibson councillor Goller and councillor Richardson it's voting

3:54:55against that's right that's right so the the amendment passes it is now up to 2025 okay so now

3:55:01it's back to the main motion and we'll call I'll call the vote then as amended okay so is anyone

3:55:07against that okay that's unanimous so perfect thank you very much staff are you clear on that then

3:55:15the motion has passed but with the amendment of up to 2025 okay we're done that one okay um I got

3:55:30another one here councillor Goller I think about the these are staff to investigate opportunities for

3:55:39removing winter on street yep did you want to bring that one forward uh yes your worship if I could

3:55:45ask staff to put this up on on the screen and I am looking for for a second there uh on this okay

3:55:54let's get Gibson put up his hand so let's have investigate opportunities to remove winter on

3:56:01street parking restrictions throughout the the city as part of the parking review review that has

3:56:08been identified and is it's underway I just wanted to make sure that that this was included and this

3:56:13is particularly important as we consider more density and more units um in um in a low density

3:56:24residential lots I think we are creating a new hardship to to residents the way that we manage

3:56:31our winter control compared to other neighboring municipalities thank you so I'm just going to

3:56:37go questions for staff on that I'll start with Alton and Gibson thank you Mayor Guthrie through

3:56:42you and I think it might be a couple of staff members that need to comment on this my perspective

3:56:47on this comes from being on a living on a street where we do have a year round 24 hour parking

3:56:53and there are some pluses and some challenges as well as a consequence I think that I would like

3:56:59to hear from engineering to comment on uh what the impact will be on traffic engineering of this

3:57:06similarly I'd like to hear from bylaw as well on uh on the benefits of this uh there's it this is one

3:57:13of those laws of unintended consequences because I'm pro 24 hour all year park and I just want this

3:57:19one done right so uh Councillor Alton I'll go right back to you my concern with that question

3:57:26is that's exactly what the motion is asking for the information to come back like you're asking

3:57:30engineers and people to give you feedback on what potential consequences could be but that's

3:57:35exactly what this motion is asking for the report to come back on I probably misread the darn thing

3:57:41I thought it said we're going to have it now no no it says for staff to investigate opportunities

3:57:47there you go can we have the motion back up please oh hold on Councillor Downer is actually

3:57:55raising a good a good a good comment that I just caught I would almost say that I would rather get

3:58:00us through any amendments of the main motion first so Councillor Goller if you don't mind

3:58:07would you be willing to remove your motion at this time as long as it comes back today your

3:58:12worship yeah yeah you're good next winter no I was kidding Councillor Gibson are you okay

3:58:16removing your seconder okay then I have to formally ask all of council is it okay if I remove that

3:58:21is anyone against that no seeing nothing okay so I'll come back to you but thank you Councillor

3:58:27Downer for raising that this is kind of after the fact type of questions in fact I could almost

3:58:32argue that my motion that you amended was almost kind of an after the fact motion as well so yeah

3:58:38sorry about that that's my fault okay is there anything then my main question though is because

3:58:43I've gone through everything is there anything that strictly is about any amendments further

3:58:49to what's in front of us Councillor Goller your worship in response to some of the the

3:58:54letters from residents I have moved one more motion I sent it out to my council colleagues today

3:59:01and I'm yeah it's for additional residential dwelling units at present there are three

3:59:08restrictions on their size one it's a percentage as compared to the main property the main house on

3:59:14the on the lot the second one is a percentage as opposed to the amount of open space that is available

3:59:20and the third restriction in place is an absolute limit of 80 square meters I am asking through

3:59:28this motion to remove that limit of 80 square meters as a maximum which is about 860 square feet

3:59:36so that if your house is big enough say say you have a larger unit with a larger backyard I would

3:59:48like us to still hold to the other limits the the percentage as opposed to the size of the main home

3:59:54the percentage as opposed to the amount of green space in the in your backyard but I think this this

3:59:59arbitrary limit on the size is not helpful to to helping us provide homes for families here in

4:00:07Guelph I think I look Councillor Gibson rose his hand to second it so questions on this I'll start

4:00:14with a downer please so I just sort of my my concern about this is that additional residential

4:00:22units are supposed to be subordinate to the primary unit so in this situation you could have

4:00:32is that he's he's still saying that the 45 we've let the mover explain one more okay I see a

4:00:38maximum of 45 so that still stays the same yeah but these could be of any size then with the

4:00:48but still be subordinate okay why do we have the maximum of 861 square feet for

4:00:58for these three America three to Councillor Downer the 80 square meters is really related to

4:01:07the two bedrooms so it sort of aligns the two bedrooms with the overall size it was carried

4:01:16forward from the previous accessory apartment regulations in 2020 there were some staff recommendations

4:01:23um to remove it at that time um but it did uh it did end up in our current bylaw

4:01:32great thank you I still think we're we're looking at almost building even with big houses you're

4:01:38looking because the 45 percent includes the basement right it's not like a house listing where you

4:01:45you you don't include the size of the basement the size of the house like so if I have a thousand

4:01:51square foot bungalow that's known as a thousand square foot bungalow it's actually 2000 square feet

4:01:57because you're including the basement in the size of the house right the 45 percent of that

4:02:042000 is actually it whereas that same house would be listed for 1000 square feet because real estate

4:02:10agents don't count the basements no the size of the main home a maximum of the 45 percent of the

4:02:18size of the main home so I'm just I'm still to you America 3 to counselor downer so the 80 square

4:02:25meters um is only applied to the detached ardu and not to um an ardu within the primary dwelling

4:02:33well I understand that but that 45 percent of the size of the main home the size when you

4:02:42calculate the size of the main home if it's a thousand square foot bungalow by what normal

4:02:48people would call a thousand square foot bungalow that it's you're actually including the size of

4:02:53the basement so it's I'm just saying when you list a home and you live in a bungalow and it's

4:02:58thousand square feet that's just the size of the main floor they don't include the basement in the

4:03:03size as for in the in the case of adri use we include the size of the the size of the basement

4:03:11so it's actually a 2000 square feet if the basement's the same size so that's 45 percent of the 2000

4:03:19so basically the that you're as long as it could be almost the same size I could build something

4:03:25pretty much the same size as my bungalow in the backyard is what I'm saying and it you'd still

4:03:32be able to be no more than 30 percent of the yard but I understand but but you would still have

4:03:37I could still have basically two houses almost the same size yeah that that is correct yeah yeah

4:03:48so I'm not so we're already at quite a that's a good size already so I don't I don't see that we

4:03:55need to go any bigger on these on these adri use in backyards and they're quite they can be quite

4:04:00tall as well we have there's ones in our not far around close to us that are significantly tall

4:04:07so I'm not going to support this I think this is a good way to control it and let's see how

4:04:12this works out we've had some built let's continue to see how this is playing out now and then we

4:04:16couldn't maybe amend it a couple of years or years okay thank you I'm just going to make a comment

4:04:23before the vote then oh and I did see Councillor O'Rourke saying I'll just make my comment now

4:04:28you know I've been talking to a lot of people about looking to build tiny homes and especially

4:04:34for aging parents and a couple of the families that I've been talking to they actually have

4:04:40mentioned to me that the size limitation has been a problem especially from an actually an

4:04:47accessibility point of view needing to have sort of wider spaces inside of these to accommodate

4:04:53wheelchairs and things like that walkers and etc as as aging people are looking to live in these

4:04:58types of places so I do think I do think we should make them allowed to be bigger and if I could just

4:05:08ask maybe one question then back to Abby if you don't mind can I just get clarity one more time

4:05:14in your response to Councillor Downer you said that the original recommendation from staff was to

4:05:22not have that in there but then council said no we want to limit the size so is what Councillor

4:05:29Gowler is suggesting actually moving us back to what staff recommended originally sorry I just

4:05:43need a minute I think I responded to Gowler the other day with this information your reply was Monday

4:06:02at 10 39 a.m. yeah so um originally we did recommend removing the 80 square meters but it was

4:06:16through community consultation and a concern with the overall size of detached structures that it was

4:06:22added back in for the decision meeting in 2020 it was added back in on whose suggestion staffs or

4:06:30a counselor on staffs recommendation okay I just needed clarity thank you thank you very much

4:06:37um well actually just before I go back over I do have a follow-up then

4:06:43would you say that on staffs urging to change it at that time was was based on I guess it was

4:06:51based on engagement at that time before any of them were allowed so I guess I'm saying a comment

4:06:57but the fact that they're allowed now people are getting used to them the commentary that I just

4:07:02gave about trying to have more space for for people to be able to live in in these homes

4:07:08I think is is valid but you know where I'm going on this so who had an extra an extra question I

4:07:13think was a a Rourke and then to Kate please and then I'll go back to the mover and I'll call the

4:07:19vote thank you Mirgoth through you to staff you know sometimes it's uh all the regulations together

4:07:30right so it's the maximum 45 percent of the size of the main home and no more than 30 percent of the

4:07:38yard and then there's a height restriction right so are these and and and are they you need to meet

4:07:49one criteria you need to meet two three like can you help me understand um how that works

4:07:59you probably explained it on ARD unite and I can't recall through you Mirgoth three to

4:08:04counselor work you need to meet all of the requirements so it's the lesser of all all three requirements

4:08:13okay so if you have a great big yard and you can accommodate something that's slightly bigger

4:08:18it's still no more than 30 percent you still have your maximum height so those are sort of natural

4:08:24constraints around that the size right and it becomes appropriate to the lot and the main building

4:08:31would that be a fair fair to say through you Mirgoth three to counselor wrote a work for the 45

4:08:39percent of the floor area and the 30 percent yard coverage it is with within the context of the property

4:08:46okay um thank you I think I can support that thanks thank you um uh

4:08:58kateen uh I believe had a question and then busatil thank you through you mr. mayor staff um

4:09:06so in in like the the largest worst case scenario what kind of negative impact would this have

4:09:16like so you had a very large estate house like what's the worst that's gonna happen it's basically

4:09:22my question um you got three to counselor kateen every size of lots different and so we'd have

4:09:42to take a look at it but the 30 percent um of the yard coverage is would be the the maximum then input

4:09:49and the height requirements are there you know there is alternatives that they can go through if

4:09:54they want to line amendments such as a committee of adjustment process um but the 80 square meters is

4:10:00the cap right now if that's removed then it's based on really the size of the the lot um if you have a

4:10:07large large property you can put in a bigger unit but right now it's also two bedrooms so you'd have

4:10:12some bigger common space or bigger bedrooms as well in your design so the the amount of

4:10:21lots that this would impact would be would you imagine probably small it's not going to be a

4:10:28huge amount of places that are going to be able to have something that much larger in their yard

4:10:33anyway from regatha reed a counselor kateen there's some uh larger lots in the city of gualph

4:10:41especially in some of the older neighborhoods that then could have a larger accessory residential

4:10:45dwelling unit in the rear okay thank you thank you uh looks like i got busatil to wrap us up and

4:10:53then back to the mover and then i'll call the vote thank you and through you uh mr mayor just

4:11:00what i heard from the staff in response to councillor downer's question is the calculation

4:11:04of the 45 percent it's floor area not the footprint of the uh the residents and so there is the

4:11:12potential that it could uh be quite large is that correct that is correct the original bylaw had

4:11:21the calculation of all floor areas so that was included from the beginning okay thank you to the

4:11:28mover and then i'll call the vote oh yeah sorry yeah go ahead we'll go to councillor downer

4:11:32i'm going to add sort of based on that too this from the street this or from you know the neighbors

4:11:37back here i this this will not look subordinate to the main dwelling because you're including

4:11:44the square footage of the basement and the main floor and it it will be the same size it could be

4:11:51potentially be pretty much the same size as the footprint of the main dwelling so if you

4:11:56got a bungalow you could basically have another bungalow in the backyard i just want to make sure

4:12:01we understand what we're all approving by going larger and you could still have 30 but it would

4:12:06you could have something that looks from the street or from if it's as something that's almost

4:12:12the same size okay thank you to the mover thank you through your worship um i just wanted to encourage

4:12:22my my council colleagues to to support this as we look to build alternative housing opportunities

4:12:29here in the city i feel that this restriction helps us get there and you know to the environmental

4:12:35concerns i i have a a backyard unit and we put it on on screws so so it doesn't impact the water

4:12:44infiltration there is there's a bit of gravel underneath the unit so i think there are ways to

4:12:49build additional dwelling units and still take care of of the environment under our water

4:12:55filtration system thank you worship okay thank you okay i'll call the vote then is uh i'll be

4:13:01very clear this time so even i remember okay all those against this raise your hand

4:13:09all right so we got busitil and richardson and downer and karan and alt

4:13:16oh and quasim okay gotta raise that hand for me so i can really see it and quasim so that is six

4:13:27okay so that passes okay um anything else from anybody at all no okay so how about i call the

4:13:41vote then on the main motion as amended all right um i will call the vote then on that now

4:13:51so is anyone against the main motion as amended oh well if you just on the last vote on the on

4:14:01the order no this is it so she was maybe linda would talk sorry i thought i heard you say that

4:14:07the motion passed and i thought it failed with a vote of six sorry i'm it's seven six oh it's seven

4:14:15six there was six against seven four i didn't hear the other thank you oh i thought you okay yes

4:14:28if we need comments i'm happy to do that i was right in the middle of calling the vote

4:14:32as amended we were there okay councillor gibson or with comments thank you i i want to just because

4:14:40i bit a bit of a stickler on this file and staff know i just want you to know that it's never

4:14:44personal right and i hope that you felt that from me and i know that we've taken opposite views on

4:14:50this driveway issue but thank you for your consistency and uh and appreciate just having two

4:14:55opposite opinions and um just want to make sure that i still think you guys did a terrific job

4:15:01on the entirety of the zoning bylaw so thank you great thank you i liked seeing the staff's head

4:15:10nodding in agreement there all right could i could i just ask to see the motions on the on

4:15:18this place so we're all on the same page about what we're sure i'll ask the clerks to do that

4:15:23for those online there it was just being asked us to kind of throw everything up on the screen

4:15:27there's probably several right is there a couple pages i'm imagining or

4:15:38through through you mr. mayor that's the second resolution there that will be noted as as amended

4:15:43okay good capture the variety of resolutions that were passed today okay and i believe although

4:15:47i'm having trouble just pulling it up here that one of the resolutions passes an amendment is likely

4:15:52actually a number five on here as well it was yes port back that that that was mine um which i even

4:15:58i acknowledge should have been sort of a separate one so yeah it should be a number five so voting

4:16:03on the main motion as amended it's number two on screen as amended plus that resolution number five

4:16:08and then any additional votes that take place will just be a standalone stand alone perfect

4:16:12yep okay thank you councillor goller all right with that i will call the vote then as amended

4:16:21so is anyone against and that is unanimous which is a very nice gift to our staff that have worked

4:16:30so hard on this so thank you very very much to staff really appreciate it um and community

4:16:40and engagement and my colleagues we really appreciate it okay um now we had an extra one

4:16:49that i was saying i was going to save oh that was the parking one right for winter winter parking

4:16:54right okay go ahead to table that now yep uh through worship i'd like to move a motion directing

4:16:59staff to consider the the removal of the overnight winter parking restriction as part of the um

4:17:08yep and if i have a seconder from councillor gibson okay perfect so it's exactly what we

4:17:13were going to do before where i accidentally placed it so it's in the right spot now and

4:17:17i remember interrupting very rudely i'm so sorry councillor Allt was who was in the middle of a

4:17:22question so i'm sorry and then and then councillor downer reminded me so councillor Allt right back

4:17:26to you do i want to go back to where we left off yes if everybody has read it properly i hope

4:17:31everyone will vote for it will you that's my question yes yes absolutely any other questions on

4:17:36this okay councillor gibson thank you so by the reasoning for seconding it and and having

4:17:41another floor is because i did want to ask a question so it's my understanding that there are

4:17:45two primary reasons why we allow we don't allow for on-street parking in the winter that's a snow

4:17:51removal so when we have to do residential plots but also kind of maybe a secondary thing as the

4:17:55snow banks build up the streets tend to get narrow so there's that consideration as well

4:18:00in the case of this winter i can count on one hand how many times we did a full residential plow

4:18:06but would staff so maybe you can simplistically say oh we only need a ban on on-street parking

4:18:11for five to six days of winter generally but do staff and will staff consider like

4:18:17house staff house no accumulates in the width of roads is there is there a metric that we could

4:18:21put in place to say to residents say no based on our assessment we're now believing that the

4:18:29residential streets have been constricted by 20% due to snow banks therefore we have to implement an

4:18:35on-street parking ban is there is there measures and metrics that we could do in those cases i know

4:18:41this is presupposing any kind of findings but i'm just asking out of curiosity you're asking if

4:18:45they're going to take that kind of stuff into consideration as they look at opportunities

4:18:49that's your question thank you through you maric got three to councillor gibson yeah staff would

4:18:54be looking at that as part of the as part of the review we do have the minimum maintenance

4:19:01standards now that we have to maintain and plow at certain times the the streets as well as maintain

4:19:08roadway widths for emergency vehicles and the like so that yeah we would be looking at that okay so

4:19:14based on that i'm happy to support and i think it's important that we at least answer the question

4:19:17because it's being asked of us from from residents so thanks for that great anything more on this

4:19:27yeah sure councillor Klassen sure thank you um i can i just get a point of clarification on the

4:19:31motion um so as like i just saw in our our zoning bylaw that we had a recommendation

4:19:38to investigate on-street parking um in the winter time does this just bring it forward

4:19:46through through your worship this this makes sure that it's not just on-street parking year round

4:19:51but it is also specifically looking at our our ban because we could have a recommendation

4:19:56come back that does not necessarily address the overnight winter ban as part of on-street parking

4:20:05okay and then so another clarifying question is the motion time bound

4:20:12or is it just as part of our parking bylaw like the review happening next year

4:20:20through you mayor got three to councillor Klassen the intent would be to review it as part of the

4:20:242025 on-street parking review difficult question is there any opportunity to bring that review of

4:20:34the ban forward um just because this is something that we've heard a lot about and i know that it's

4:20:41you know part of a greater problem i understand that you know looking at something under a microscope

4:20:46requires you know but it's just something that we hear hear a ton um just just just asking

4:20:54through you mayor got three to councillor Klassen it would be difficult to bring it forward

4:20:57based on our work plans and everything like that council does have the authority to make changes to

4:21:01the on-street parking regulations at any time but for our review for us to understand the impacts of

4:21:07it it would take time and we're recommended 2025 okay thank you just so you know councillor like if

4:21:19you ever were like okay i like this timeline fine 2025 but if you i mean if you wanted to be like

4:21:26i'd really like this to be done earlier you have the right to ask to see if it can go on an agenda

4:21:31in the future however knowing that staff are looking to to to implement something in 2025 it is

4:21:38you know it's probably kind of lined up appropriately as staff have said with their work plans so okay

4:21:46but yeah sure i just i feel like there's been a number like this has been a problem for a number

4:21:50of years and i feel like we're going to go through another winter with it and i just wonder if it's

4:21:56something that we could either have like leniency on or partial ban or we could you know rather than

4:22:02having it all winter long we could have an exception for you know i'm not sure i'm not sure what the

4:22:10language should be but maybe it just needs to wait then yeah i think because this motion is tied

4:22:15into that overall parking study that's going to be done it's sort of a what you're bringing up is

4:22:20almost a separate operational request so outside of this meeting like talk to staff and figure out

4:22:26if there's something that could be done if they don't agree with something you could always talk

4:22:29to your colleagues and we could we could look at implementing something as a pilot project or

4:22:33something like that over the next couple of years prior to that but those questions is kind of outside

4:22:38the scope of this motion but they're not they're not disregarded no thank you thanks for the clarification

4:22:43yeah just talk to staff for sure okay is there anything more on this motion then okay i will call

4:22:50the vote then is anyone against this motion okay that too is unanimous so thank you i just need to

4:22:58ask um a question please of staff so on on this that was given to me there was like kind of three

4:23:05other potential uh motions with the first one being the one that councillor Goller just brought

4:23:11forward the other two were that the citywide parking review be initiated in 2024 now again i

4:23:22wasn't given i this came from nowhere this is just landed on my desk but we've been hearing

4:23:28that it's starting in 2025 right so we're good right like this isn't here for any reason through

4:23:35you were a bit confused because i'm not actually sure what that is or where it came from

4:23:41sure hey i just sat here and to you marica three just to add a little bit of clarification

4:23:47sure go ahead um so that was in response to the driveway with um issue so if uh staff are making

4:23:54a recommendation that if driveway what driveways aren't wide widened then um the uh study be pushed

4:24:02to 2024 um to sort of deal with that issue earlier okay and then so the third and final one that's on

4:24:09here as well does not need like you don't need that initiated i just want to make sure i'm not

4:24:14missus like okay perfect okay that's great okay um it looks like that brings us to a close

4:24:21and so again thank you very much to everyone involved uh we have councillor uh would you