Motions 1 to 5 be referred staff to continue to work with the Accessible Advisory Committee and report back to Council if any new service levels…

18:03I will come back to you just because of the delegations.

18:05I got to go to them first,

18:06but I'll make sure you remind me.

18:07Thank goodness you're sitting close, you can do that.

18:10So I am jumping to the items for discussion now

18:12on our agenda.

18:14The first one does have some delegations

18:17and that will be under the Parks and Recreation Master Plan.

18:22And so now I just want to,

18:31I just want to ask here,

18:32I have maybe, Councillor Caton,

18:35can I just ask you a quick question?

18:37Would you mind?

18:40You've asked the chair of the Accessibility Advisory Committee

18:44to come forward to speak on the entire report

18:47or to speak only on consideration of amendments

18:51you're wanting to bring forward later?

18:53To speak on consideration of the amendments.

18:56Okay, so,

19:01okay, so what I'll do is I will,

19:06I'll address that soon.

19:07I'm going to go to the delegates first

19:10to speak because that's to the main issue, okay?

19:13And then I'll circle back and talk about that, okay?

19:16So the first one on our agenda says Linda Jeffery,

19:19but just to be very clear,

19:21she herself actually called in and withdrew

19:23her, withdrew the delegation just so everyone knows.

19:27So I'm skipping that.

19:28And the first one by video is going to be Hugh Whiteley

19:31joining us.

19:32And so Dr. Whiteley, it's Mayor Guthrie.

19:35Can you hear me okay?

19:43Dr. Whiteley, we can see you.

19:45I just see that you're still muted.

19:47If you want to unmute, I'm sure it would work there.

19:57Am I unmuted now?

20:00Thank you so much for joining us.

20:02And you know the drill here,

20:04but I'll just say it out loud just in case for everybody.

20:06It's no more than five minutes.

20:08And you'll hear a chime at the four minute 30 second mark

20:11to give you a 30 second warning

20:13that your time for delegation would be up.

20:15And then we ask everyone to stick around

20:17just in case there's a follow up question

20:19from any counselors, okay?

20:20So Dr. Whiteley, I'll turn it over to you

20:22and your time will start when you start.

20:25Thank you very much for the opportunity,

20:27Mayor Guthrie and members of council.

20:31I'm aware of how historic this evening is

20:36because it takes about three decades

20:39according to Guelph's current pattern

20:42to reconsider the parks and recreation plans for the city.

20:48And so I'm quite confident

20:50this will be the last presentation

20:53that I make on that topic to council.

20:57My concern is that 14 years ago,

21:03city council directed staff

21:05to prepare the document that you have in front of you.

21:09And I'm concerned that it has taken 14 years

21:12for staff to do that.

21:15It's an important area of,

21:19it affects the future of the city very considerably

21:23and the life of the citizens within it during that period.

21:29So my first concern is that there's no explanation

21:33for the delay in bringing this forward.

21:37And I'm hoping before the end of the evening

21:39or in the future,

21:41there is some explanation of the timing of this now

21:47updated parks and recreation plan.

21:51My second concern is that there was,

21:55as I've documented in material submitted to council,

22:00a well-established decision by city council

22:06to have an open space master plan as a key ingredient

22:12of each recreation parks and culture,

22:17strategic or master plans as they came forward.

22:22And so I'm very disappointed

22:25that the current document ends that practice.

22:30And again, I'm hoping that beginning

22:34with some discussion this evening,

22:37but continuing into the future,

22:40there will be an opportunity for council members

22:44and members of the public to understand

22:46why staff have decided to end the practice

22:51of having open space master plans

22:56and not follow the practice of several other cities,

23:02London, Saskatoon and Edmonton in particular,

23:11that have followed the same pattern

23:13and set of having master plans for their open space

23:20and have emphasized the importance of river corridors

23:24within that open space master plan.

23:28And so I'm hoping that council will take time

23:33to begin the process of understanding

23:36why this decision was made

23:37and possibly in the future, reversing it.

23:45Well, thank you very much, Dr. Whitley,

23:47for your delegation.

23:50Is there anyone that has a specific question

23:52in regards to this, to the delegate?

23:55Seeing none.

23:56So again, thank you very much for joining us.

23:58Okay, thank you.

23:59The next is in person, Morgan Dandy.

24:02I do see you here, come on down.

24:13And again, you have up to five minutes,

24:15chime at four minutes, 30 seconds if needed,

24:17and you can go whenever you're ready

24:21and the clock will start when you start.

24:24Hello, I don't really have a lot of prepared remarks today

24:27for you, council.

24:28I kind of gonna free flow a little bit.

24:31I went over a few of the bits about the park stuff today.

24:37And one of the things that really struck me

24:39was about the all ages.

24:4112 years ago, I was not an older adult.

24:44Today, I am.

24:46I believe some of you on council

24:48may also be in a similar situation

24:51where 12 years ago, you were still somewhere in your 40s

24:54and now you're somewhere in your mid 50s.

24:56People like me, we're at the front edge of the wave

25:00of Gen Xers that are coming through.

25:03And we don't have the same recreation needs

25:06as the boomers that have come before us.

25:10So the idea of working with the GWSA,

25:14especially for the younger of us junior seniors,

25:17as I like to call us,

25:20I think it'd be a really good idea.

25:22And tying that in, as we become grandparents,

25:26one of the things that is important to us

25:28is spending time with our grandchildren.

25:30I was a nanny for a lot of years

25:32and I saw things move from sand and gravel

25:36in the playgrounds to the wood chips.

25:39Wood chips and wheels do not go together.

25:43I don't care who you are,

25:44whether you're pushing a carriage or in a mobility device

25:47or you're pushing yourself in a wheelchair

25:49or you got somebody else pushing you in a wheelchair.

25:52Wheels and wood chips do not go together.

25:55So the idea that Councillor Caton is bringing forward

25:59about having eventually 1.5 kilometers

26:05between rubberized surfaces and playgrounds,

26:07I think is beneficial for the entire community,

26:10not only those that have accessibility needs right now.

26:16I was really happy when I went on to Google Maps

26:19and figured out that from Royal City Park

26:22to the new Herb Mark Park where there's a rubberized surface,

26:26it's just under 2.5 kilometers.

26:28So way to go stop on getting that done.

26:31And then from there up to Riverside,

26:33depending on which way you go,

26:34it's anywhere from two kilometers to 2.2 kilometers.

26:39So word two is pretty well set up.

26:42When it comes to word three and word four,

26:45I was driving down Willow Road yesterday

26:47and saw the wonderful building that Kindles

26:50put up for our community and recognized

26:53that there's two more big projects

26:57that are coming in that area.

26:58And I wondered where the parks are gonna go.

27:02And not only where the parks are gonna go,

27:03but as people with more financial difficulties

27:07are moving into these areas,

27:11I know when I was knocking doors

27:13for many different political reasons,

27:17I ran into a lot of people that have children

27:19with mobility issues, children with autism.

27:22And while I don't pretend to understand everything

27:25that Dr. Whiteley is talking about with the River Valleys,

27:28I know that as an individual

27:30who has a neurodivergent brain,

27:32spending time within the River Valleys

27:34is something really important to me.

27:36And making those accessible to everybody

27:38would be really cool too.

27:40I recognize that that's not something

27:42that's in the plan right now,

27:43but I'd love to see it at some point in the future.

27:46When I was in kindergarten,

27:49or no, sorry, when I was in grade five,

27:51I looked after a little girl who when she was two years old,

27:53she fell out of a window and she broke her back.

27:58She wasn't able to feel anything in her bottom.

28:01And as a result, she wasn't allowed

28:04to go out onto the playground during recess.

28:06So I cared for her in the kindergarten room during recess.

28:10How amazing would it be

28:13if that little girl could have gotten out and played

28:16instead of having to stay inside?

28:19These are the kinds of things

28:20that having accessibility in all of our playgrounds will allow.

28:26And the one thing I actually questioned

28:29Councillor Caton about was talk tubes and what they were.

28:32And when they explained it to me,

28:33I went, yeah, that's not a play thing.

28:35So I hope that when we get to the motions

28:39that everybody will have a really good listen

28:41and really understand that this is bringing things

28:44into AODA compliance, which the province has fallen down on.

28:48Thank you.

28:51Great, thank you.

28:52Any follow up questions at all?

28:55Seeing and hearing none.

28:56Thank you very much.

28:57All right, and we have another one here.

29:00Maureen Esch.

29:03And Maureen, thank you for coming.

29:05Come on down.

29:15Welcome.

29:16And again, no more than five minutes

29:18and the time will start when you start

29:20and the chime at four minutes and 30 seconds.

29:21Go right ahead.

29:22Okay.

29:23Thank you for having me.

29:24I appreciate that.

29:26I wanted to come and speak to

29:28Councillor Caton's motions as well

29:30around accessibility in playgrounds.

29:32I come at it from a lot of different perspectives.

29:35I have in the last number of years had children in Guelph

29:42and they are now teenagers.

29:45But during all those times that I had them at parks,

29:47I was most impressed by the parks

29:50that had accessibility options.

29:52And the fact that there were people there

29:54with accessibility requirements

29:58that could play amongst my kids

30:01and my kids could play with them.

30:03And it was a very nice open space.

30:05And that made a lot of difference to me and to them

30:08in terms of their understanding of people

30:11with mobility requirements.

30:14And I'm very much coming at it

30:16from a perspective of being a professional as well.

30:19I've been in mental health field for 30 years.

30:21And in terms of what happened recently

30:25with pandemic issues,

30:27I've noticed that outside space became exceptionally important.

30:31And it became exceptionally important to many people.

30:33But unfortunately, it also became very isolating

30:36for those with mobility requirements under the AODA.

30:41It became very difficult to find public spaces

30:44that were out of doors where they could attend and play

30:47and be with others.

30:49And I thought, you know,

30:50the mental health aspect of the pandemic,

30:53getting outdoors and experiencing nature,

30:55getting some exercise, being with others,

30:58others that you've never seen before

31:01or that you wanted to meet and you could meet at a distance,

31:05but an outdoor play, it became essential

31:08and is still as essential.

31:10I very much am aware that 2025 is coming very quickly.

31:14I know that I've, as a mental health professional,

31:17done everything that I can in my practice

31:20to allow for everybody to be welcome and included.

31:25And I'd like to see that happen in our public spaces

31:27and our park spaces and all the plans

31:30make it become second nature to have those plans

31:34in your RFPs, for instance, as part of the standard of those

31:40so that when somebody comes forward and says,

31:42I'd like to propose to do this build

31:44or I'd propose to do, ask them if they are going to do

31:49what you need them to do in order for it

31:51to be a welcoming and inclusive space.

31:53That is key.

31:55I think that the intersection two

31:58of the mobility issues that we see,

32:00again, based on my decades of experience,

32:04often the mobility issues that we see

32:06or the need for and the requirement for accessibility

32:10comes in areas of the city that aren't as well resourced.

32:14So for the, it's really important, I feel,

32:18that if you do come to an area like that

32:22and you're able to walk between or easily get

32:27between those spaces, so that, talking about lowering

32:31the distance between places where there are rubberized

32:36surfaces and also accessibility play station,

32:40that sort of thing, something where a wheelchair can fit in,

32:43where kids who have different needs

32:45are all going to feel like they belong there.

32:49I think that that's really essential to think about

32:52the piece that's intersecting there.

32:54So when there are fewer resources in a neighborhood

32:58or in neighborhoods together in an area of golf,

33:01that's probably where more open spaces

33:04and more accessibility needs exist.

33:07It was something that I just thought would be interesting to,

33:10I thought of a beautiful playground

33:12that I could use as an example.

33:14And I'm not sure if everyone's aware

33:15of the Dragonfly Playground in the South End.

33:18It's in behind Bishop Mack.

33:21So beautiful playground, beautifully designed.

33:25It was actually developed and produced by a family

33:28who had lost their son, who basically asked for donations

33:34to get that park put in place.

33:36And it is an exceptional playground.

33:38It's not accessible though.

33:40It's accessible once you're there,

33:42but it's not accessible to get there.

33:44And that's the thing that if you have to take transit

33:47or if you are getting there on your wheels

33:52or walking for people who can still walk,

33:55it's very important that the places like that

33:59are available to the people that need them the most.

34:03So that's basically what I wanted to say.

34:06And from a professional and also from an aging perspective,

34:09I am too also aging.

34:11And in the last five years, my mobility issue

34:13or my mobility has changed quite a bit.

34:16And I was at a point where I required mobility aids as well.

34:20And that comes and it goes.

34:22And it's important to me and to other people

34:25that that continue to be a place where they can go

34:28as caregivers and as elders and with their children

34:32and so forth.

34:33Those are the things I wanted to say.

34:34No, no problem.

34:35I don't go away yet just in case there's a question,

34:37which it looks like Councillor Boosentill

34:39would like to ask you on.

34:39So just stay there.

34:41Okay.

34:42Thank you very much, Maureen.

34:43I just want to, hi,

34:45I just want a bit of a clarification.

34:47So you speak of two baskets for me.

34:50One is connectivity.

34:52Yes.

34:53And the other one is accessibility.

34:55And so can you explain a little bit more

34:58about connectivity, the distance between

35:01and what it is specifically that you are speaking to

35:05in the connectivity?

35:06So what I'm interested in and making sure

35:09that Councilors are aware of is that it's important

35:13for not just one place for people to be able to go to

35:18and to enjoy, there's a variety that's required

35:21in terms of development,

35:23in terms of family and community connection.

35:28And so being able to go from one space to another space

35:32relatively easily.

35:34And because most people don't,

35:37well, most people in a lot of those areas

35:39that where there's more resources required

35:42don't have vehicles.

35:44So they need to be able to get to those places

35:46either by transit or by wheels

35:50that they're using their wheelchairs or mobility aids.

35:54So it's important for them to have not just a place to play

35:59but a variety of places to play

36:02as well as connect in communities.

36:04And I think it welcomes everyone who may not be a part

36:08of the community yet when they first come to Guelph,

36:11it gives them an option to become a part

36:13of the community in that way.

36:15So that's what I mean by in terms of, you know,

36:17having more options in a smaller space.

36:22And through the mayor, if I might just a supplemental.

36:24So you talked about families and children

36:27and the older adults there.

36:31Does that connectivity and accessibility

36:34that map have a particular from your view

36:36and your experience for youth, you know,

36:39the independence and so on of the youth?

36:41Absolutely.

36:42In terms of independence of youth,

36:44being able to hang out somewhere that's not a place

36:47where they have to buy something or in the mall

36:50or down somewhere where they could be together

36:54and enjoy each other and also welcome their friends

36:58who may have mobility requirements

37:00that and they can and they can join them there.

37:03So it's important, I think.

37:06So thank you.

37:07I know actually how important it is.

37:10So any other questions?

37:12No, it doesn't seem like it.

37:14So thank you again for joining us.

37:16Appreciate it.

37:17My pleasure.

37:17Thanks.

37:18And that's it for delegations.

37:23So can I just come back to you,

37:26Councillor Caitlin for a moment?

37:31So I think through you,

37:35I just threw through to you.

37:38I just wanted to know Laura Lai,

37:40a route to the chair of the accessibility advisory committee.

37:46We've already had a couple of delegations tonight

37:49speak of pending amendments and motions

37:53that you wanted to bring forward.

37:56So we would obviously the chair is fully aware.

38:00You've made the chair fully aware of these amendments

38:04that are going to be tabled.

38:06So I think maybe at this time,

38:09it would be the best time for the chair to come forward

38:13because other delegations have already kind of mentioned it

38:15in passing anyways.

38:19So yeah, I saw your head nod.

38:20I just want to make sure I'm trying to capture

38:22the right moment for you.

38:23You're okay with that, Councillor Caitlin.

38:25Yes, through you to you.

38:28Yeah, I think that it's a good time for Ms. Root to introduce

38:34herself.

38:36I believe that she's prepared to answer questions

38:41about the motions as they go on as well.

38:44Certainly.

38:46So yeah, I think it's what's a little bit,

38:48just a little bit procedurally odd,

38:51not to belabor the point,

38:53is just that normally we wouldn't speak to items

38:56that aren't officially moved and seconded on the floor,

39:00but we also wouldn't have,

39:02we also wouldn't have delegations come in the middle

39:05of motions being tabled.

39:08So that's why I'm thinking now is the right time

39:10before the motions are tabled.

39:11So thank you.

39:12I just wanted to confirm that with you.

39:13So maybe we could invite the chair then

39:16of accessibility advisory committee to join the meeting.

39:20And then we would enable the same delegation process

39:27for her then.

39:29Okay, we see you.

39:31And can you just unmute for us

39:33just to make sure your audience,

39:35yep, we can hear you now too.

39:37So thank you for joining us.

39:39And you know about the amendments

39:41that are looking to be tabled later.

39:44So we'll do the same thing for you as a delegation

39:47and we'll give you the floor for up to five minutes.

39:50And then there might be some questions as well.

39:52So I'll give you that time.

39:53You go right ahead.

39:55Thank you so much, Marigot 3.

39:56And thank you to council for having me here today to speak.

40:00I'm always excited and certainly the AAC is always excited

40:04to have opportunity to directly engage with council.

40:08And it's always an added level of enjoyment for me

40:11when I know that the people I'm speaking to

40:14have a passion for accessibility and inclusion.

40:17And I know we're fortunate

40:18that everyone on council really does.

40:21I've seen that displayed by all of you.

40:23So thank you for that

40:23and for being such an easy audience

40:25to talk to about this stuff.

40:28Yes, as mentioned, I'm here.

40:30I believe councillor Caton was the one

40:31who initiated my involvement in the meeting today

40:35because I'm here to offer context and answer any questions

40:40regarding any AAC discussion that's happened in motions

40:43that we've made as the AAC

40:45regarding the Parks and Rec master plan.

40:47We've been involved with the city

40:48discussing the Parks and Rec master plan

40:50for a good number of months now.

40:52And I have been at all of those meetings

40:55and I'm happy to offer any context

40:57and answer any questions that I can.

41:00It's worth noting that I can only speak to,

41:05on behalf of the AAC,

41:06I can only speak to things that we have discussed as the AAC.

41:10So I apologize in advance if I'm asked any questions

41:13that I have to decline answering on behalf of the AAC.

41:16I can certainly offer my own opinion on some things

41:20and drawing from my own experience,

41:23lived experience and expertise

41:25and educational background for sure.

41:27But there will be some things that I can't say

41:32how the AAC feels about them

41:34because we may not have discussed those things.

41:36So I don't know how they feel about them.

41:39However, I think that there's a lot of discussion

41:42that has happened that does lend to these motions

41:46that have been brought forward by Councillor Caton.

41:50So I think I will be able to help a little bit, I hope.

41:53And yeah, I will just open the floor up to questions now.

41:58If anyone would like to ask me anything

41:59or needs further context.

42:01Thank you again for having me.

42:05Okay, thank you so much.

42:07I think, can you just pause her time for a second?

42:11Okay, so how much time would she have had left?

42:16Three and a half minutes.

42:17So what I'd like to do,

42:19because again, this is just a little bit unorthodox

42:22that you would, it's okay, there's nothing against you at all.

42:25It's just that our procedural issues here,

42:28that you're speaking to motions or amendments

42:31that have not been actually formally tabled,

42:34but we know that they're coming forward.

42:36So I wanna give you the time, if you don't mind,

42:41I wanna give you the full five minutes.

42:42And you have about three and a half minutes left.

42:45So maybe you could just speak about the motions

42:48that are coming forward to the degree that you can.

42:51And then if there's any questions,

42:53we can do a follow up after your five minutes is up.

42:56I think that would be the best thing to do.

42:58Since you know that they're coming forward.

43:00Would that be all right with you?

43:04Are you asking me to read them out loud,

43:06the motions that are coming forward or?

43:09No, no, but if you wanna just give your perspective on it,

43:12and you rightly did say as well,

43:15you have kind of a little bit of a problem

43:17where you rightly said, hey, I'm only here speaking

43:20as the chair of what was moved or discussed at the ACC.

43:26So I just want you to be able to speak in that manner

43:29with an extra three and a half minutes

43:31on the motions that you think Councillor Kayton

43:34is coming forward on.

43:35And then we can open it up for questions.

43:37But what I would do after your questions

43:40is then I would move to actually table the original motion

43:43and see what happens if Councillor Kayton's motions

43:46get tabled after that.

43:48This is a little bit unorthodox,

43:49but I just don't wanna dismiss the opportunity for you

43:53to be able to speak.

43:54So you have three and a half more minutes.

43:56I wanna give you the floor for that.

43:58And then we'll still open it up for questions.

44:02So go ahead, I'll turn it over to you, okay?

44:04Quick point of order, please.

44:06Okay, this is why this is why I'm confusing.

44:10So just one second to our delegation.

44:13I'll go to Councillor, I'll go ahead.

44:16Because it is unorthodox, I was wondering

44:18if we could please have the motions on screen

44:20so that we can follow along with what Ms. Root

44:24will be speaking to.

44:29Yeah, okay.

44:31But we don't know.

44:39I understand, that's...

44:41Just say I'm gonna make a decision not to do that

44:44because some of them may not be applicable

44:46to her role as the chair of the ACC.

44:48Very well.

44:49Okay, so I'm gonna turn the delegation back over to you.

44:52You have up to an extra three and a half minutes.

44:54And then as I said,

44:55we can open it up for questions at that time.

44:59All right, thank you.

45:00I just need a moment to get my screen reader

45:02onto the right screen.

45:03I wasn't prepared to...

45:05No, no, no, you tell us when you're ready

45:07and then we'll start the clock.

45:09Okay, perfect, thank you.

45:17All right, I'm ready.

45:20So I apologize if this is a bit off the cuff.

45:24I wasn't prepared to speak directly to the motions.

45:27I was planning on answering any questions that anyone had.

45:32Obviously these motions have not been seen by the AAC.

45:35So I can't say exactly about some of these metrics

45:38that are being mentioned what the AAC would think,

45:41but there has been a lot of discussion

45:43about some of these topics at the AAC.

45:47The...

45:49Almost every time that we see anyone from Parks at the AAC,

45:54we discuss that we would like more wheelchair accessible

45:57features.

45:58There has been a lot of discussion about talk tubes

46:01not being very inclusive.

46:03They're very segregating.

46:05So in one of the motions,

46:07I believe that those are mentioned

46:08as not a great play opportunity.

46:11And that's something that has been expressed

46:13by the AAC in the past.

46:16The Parks and Rec Master Plan,

46:20I believe we...

46:21At the April 18th meeting, I believe,

46:25we discussed a potential radius of 2.5 kilometers

46:30of distance between residential areas

46:34and playgrounds with rubber surfaces.

46:39Sorry for any delay in speech.

46:41I'm trying to listen to my screen reader while I talk to you.

46:46And we have discussed that at length at the AAC as well.

46:50And I believe that one of the motions pertains to that.

46:55Requirements that areas of economic need be a factor

47:00in determining the location of playgrounds

47:01that came up at also the April 18th AAC meeting.

47:06Discussion of that.

47:07So I can speak to that if anyone would like.

47:13And work with the Accessibility Advisory Committee

47:16is always encouraged.

47:17And I know we are always happy to connect with staff

47:20on things.

47:21So there's a motion that speaks to continued engagement

47:23with the AAC.

47:24And the AAC has been very vocal about wanting that as well.

47:29I hope that's kind of...

47:30I'm not sure if that's what you were looking for,

47:31Merrick, that's really...

47:32No, that's fine.

47:34Okay.

47:35Thank you very much.

47:36Yeah, no, you've done nothing, zero wrong.

47:39Everything's fine.

47:42Okay, so I think what I'll do is just go to my colleagues

47:47to see if there's any questions.

47:49Again, I am allowing this as chair.

47:53This is very unorthodox that we are asking a lot of questions

47:56about motions that have not yet been tabled.

47:59But this is where we're at tonight.

48:02So if we could just make sure my colleagues

48:04kind of get to the question, please, right away.

48:06I'd like to get the main motion then tabled after this.

48:09I'll start with you, Councillor Allt,

48:11then to Councillor Caton, okay?

48:12Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie,

48:14through you to the delegate, Ms. Root.

48:16Ms. Root, one concrete point that you raised

48:19was concerns about the radius or the distance

48:22between rubber surface play areas.

48:25Was there any specific motion or recommendation

48:29that came from the AAC to which you might be able

48:33to refer me?

48:37Yes, through you, Mayor Guthrie, to Councillor Allt.

48:40Thank you for that question.

48:41There was that happened at the April 18th meeting.

48:45And I believe the AAC made a motion to support

48:49the adoption of a geographic distribution of playgrounds

48:51with rubber surfaces that was 2.5 kilometers

48:54of residential areas,

48:56within 2.5 kilometers of residential areas,

48:59and that we supported the implementation

49:01of two new rubber surface parks to support that new radius.

49:05That was after a lot of discussion surrounding

49:10whether this was a target goal

49:12or whether this was just a starting point, this radius.

49:15And we were told by staff that it was a starting point

49:18and not an end goal target.

49:22Thank you very much.

49:23Thank you, Councillor Caton, please.

49:24And then Councillor O'Rourke.

49:28Thank you.

49:29If you could speak to the conversation that happened

49:35at the AAC regarding transfer stations

49:38versus wheelchair accessible ramps on structures.

49:46Right.

49:47So that actually just happened last week.

49:49Those minutes aren't available yet,

49:51but I think the recording should be up.

49:53The recording of those meetings

49:54are usually just a couple of days.

49:56Sorry, through you, Mayor Guthrie, to Councillor Caton.

50:00I, that conversation was a difficult one.

50:04There was a lot of conversation from AAC members,

50:08a lot of frustration expressed

50:10and a lot of confusion expressed.

50:12Basically what happened was there,

50:15the city staff came to us to review the plans

50:19for two parks that are upcoming, Dovercliffe and Howett Park.

50:22And in the presentation of those parks,

50:25the AAC had a lot of questions

50:28about where is the accessibility?

50:30Like why are you showing these to us?

50:31Nothing seems accessible.

50:33And we were told by staff that they are accessible

50:37because there was what's called a transfer platform.

50:42And for anyone who's not aware,

50:43I apologize if you already have this information,

50:45but a transfer platform or a transfer station

50:47or transfer bench is basically an assistive device

50:51that helps a wheelchair user or someone sitting

50:54in assistive tech or assistive equipment

50:59to transfer out of their chair

51:01as independently as possible to avoid the need

51:04for people lifting and pulling at them

51:06and transfer into a new location

51:08to do a new thing independently.

51:10So for example, there's a transfer station at my bed

51:13to help me transfer into bed at night.

51:15There's a transfer station at my shower

51:17to help me transfer to my shower bench, things like that.

51:21And unfortunately, the staff pointed to an area of the plan.

51:27If you'd like, I think I can share it on screen,

51:30but pointed to an area that's just a set of stairs.

51:33And they said, this is a transfer location,

51:35it's a transfer station.

51:37And AAC members were confused and said,

51:40how is that a transfer station?

51:42What is it transferring anyone to?

51:44Because it's a set of stairs

51:45at the base of a climbing play structure.

51:48So essentially, it was explained to us by staff

51:51that the idea behind this transfer station

51:54was that a parent or caregiver of someone in a wheelchair

51:59could lift them out of their wheelchair

52:01and place them on those stairs.

52:02And that's what they felt made it a transfer station.

52:05Now, that's not a transfer station

52:07because it takes away any independence

52:09and that's the point of a transfer station.

52:11It also wasn't transferring children to anywhere

52:13that they could do anything.

52:15It was transferring them to sit on some stairs.

52:18So transfer stations are definitely part of accessibility,

52:22but they have to be implemented in a way that allows access,

52:25removes barriers to accessing already accessible equipment.

52:29It's like if you had an elevator in a building

52:33that you could only get to by walking up a set of stairs.

52:37That's not accessible, even though elevators are accessible,

52:40that wouldn't be.

52:41And this is very much an elevator

52:42at the bottom of a set of stairs situation.

52:44And it was, there were three transfer stations

52:47that were shown to us that were just wide stairs

52:50at the bottom.

52:51So the AAC was pretty vocal about,

52:54we don't approve of these park plans.

52:56This is falling far below what we expect

52:58for accessibility from the city.

53:01Is that, I hope that answers your question.

53:05Yes, thank you.

53:08Thank you, Councillor Caden.

53:10Councillor O'Rourke, please, and then Gawler.

53:13Thank you, Marika, through you to Ms. Root.

53:15Thanks very much for being here and for your service

53:17on the AAC, it's really valued.

53:22I'm gonna have a question for staff later

53:23around whether the advisory committee

53:25can recommend service level change,

53:26because that's pretty significant

53:28because that's to apply across the city.

53:32I'm wondering, I just have a candid question for you

53:35about number four, and that's the final PRMP,

53:40include a recommendation that areas of economic need

53:43will be a factor in determining the location of playgrounds

53:45with rubber safety surface.

53:47So our staff are already doing an equity lens on parks.

53:55They are already putting in a 2.5 kilometer radius

53:59or more or less potentially.

54:03So I'm wondering, this is my concern quite candidly.

54:06There will always be areas

54:08that will have greater economic need.

54:10And if that is the requirement, right?

54:13So I see that it's a factor.

54:15Then are there parts of the city

54:17that don't have the same economic need,

54:21but that would have people with mobility needs

54:24and then not have a similar access?

54:26So that service level has to apply across the city, right?

54:30Because people have mobility needs

54:32regardless of their economic circumstances.

54:35So I'm just wondering,

54:38did the AAC discuss this?

54:42And has there been a conversation with staff

54:44around whether this is already happening?

54:48Thank you, Mr. Mayor Guthrie to Councillor O'Rourke.

54:52Yet there has been limited discussion about this at the AAC.

54:56I believe it was actually at the April 18th meeting again.

55:00We've discussed the PRMP at like five different meetings,

55:03but all of the questions tonight are about this one.

55:06At that meeting, we did have a member ask

55:10why it was geographic radius that was chosen

55:15rather than things like economic status

55:17or other equity seeking groups living in certain areas.

55:21And staff did address that with us,

55:23that the only metric they're familiar with is geographic,

55:26that other status can change in the city,

55:30like financially privileged neighborhood

55:33might not be a financially privileged neighborhood

55:3610 years from now and parks are forever.

55:38So that was addressed at one of our meetings.

55:41It is a concern that's on the minds of AAC members,

55:44but I think that it being,

55:48the reason I would personally support that motion

55:51is that it's a recommendation that it be considered.

55:55And I don't ever think it's a bad thing for equity

55:58seeking groups to be considered at all,

56:01in all conversations where decisions are being made.

56:03So I hope that answers your question.

56:07Yeah, so I'm fine with it being a factor.

56:10And I think staff are already bringing in equity lands

56:12certainly to the trails master plan

56:15and to the parks and record,

56:16I can ask them that question as well.

56:18And through you, Meg, I got three,

56:19just another question.

56:21Staff expressed a concern.

56:22And again, it's really strange

56:23because we're talking about things the public doesn't see

56:26a set of recommendations that haven't been

56:30sort of discussed and publicly available,

56:33but staff have raised a concern around the heat

56:36of the rubberized surfaces.

56:39So is that a concern that's been explored at the AAC

56:45just about that the rubberized surfaces

56:48tend to be a lot hotter?

56:49So if there's a kid who's sitting on the surface

56:52or playing somewhere,

56:54is that a concern that's been discussed at the AAC?

56:58Thank you.

56:59Through you, Marika, three to councillor, O'Rourke.

57:01No, sorry, yes, that has been discussed.

57:05Let me just find where, if that is important,

57:09because I made it, I compiled a list of every comment

57:12that every member made at every meeting

57:14where we discussed the PRMP.

57:16Okay, you don't have to understand anyone.

57:20But so we were just speaking to understand.

57:23Yeah, no, I don't need the date or anything like that.

57:25Okay, if you'd like it later, reach out to me.

57:27I do have it, I have everything here.

57:30We did discuss that.

57:32There have been members who've expressed

57:34that it doesn't get much hotter than asphalt does,

57:38that there are also difficulties with things like wood chips.

57:41If you're sitting with bare legs on the rubber,

57:44it might get too warm.

57:45But if you're sitting with bare legs on the wood chips,

57:47they can also be uncomfortable.

57:49There's often animal excrement in there.

57:53They get soggy and moldy and smell like mildew

57:55after the snow melts.

57:57It's, because they're just exposed raw wood.

57:59There are people who have allergies to them.

58:02So there are kind of considerations for comfort,

58:09for people that can be made,

58:12like arguments like that could be made

58:14for almost any surface anywhere.

58:17But yes, it is something that staff brought forward to us

58:20and the AAC was not concerned with that.

58:25We would rather have access to areas

58:27and just not sit on them if they're too warm for us.

58:30But that was pretty much the extent

58:34of the conversation around that, I believe.

58:37Okay, thanks very much.

58:38Thank you.

58:39Goer, I think you were next

58:41and that's last on the list.

58:42Thank you, Worship, through you to Ms. Root.

58:45Thank you for your presentation today.

58:47I wanted to go back to the question of the wood chips,

58:52the engineered wood fiber.

58:54It's my understanding that they're deemed

58:57to be accessible by some standard, SATM F1951.

59:01Could you let me know if there were conversations

59:04about the appropriateness of these wood chips

59:08in playgrounds at the AAC

59:11and why they're not accessible to wheelchairs,

59:14if you can tell us a little bit about that.

59:17Yes, we discussed that at the first time

59:20that staff came to the AAC

59:22about the Parks and Rec Master Plan.

59:24I believe that that was in April.

59:28Or no, sorry, it was in February, the February meeting.

59:30We discussed that right away,

59:32we were just asked,

59:33Ballpark, what are some of your biggest concerns

59:35and wood chips came up right away?

59:38I'm not sure why some standards deemed them accessible,

59:42but myself as a chair user,

59:44I can tell you I can't get through wood chips.

59:47And the consensus of everyone at the AAC

59:50was this is a thing we are not happy with.

59:52I have a list of the things we said we didn't like

59:55and that was at the top of it.

59:56Actually, the first thing brought forward to staff

1:00:00was please don't use wood chips, we can't get across them.

1:00:03So anyone with a walker or wheelchair,

1:00:05it can damage our equipment as well,

1:00:07like if it gets stuck in it.

1:00:09I was actually at Steffler Park today.

1:00:12It's one of my favorite parks in Guelph.

1:00:13And they have a playground with wood chips

1:00:15and while I was sitting talking to someone on the phone,

1:00:18I looked down and the wood chips over time tend to sink

1:00:22and it's kind of turned into like a pit of wood chips.

1:00:25So you also can't even get down into it

1:00:27or get back out of it with a chair or an assistive device

1:00:30because they've kind of sunk down.

1:00:33So there are a lot of reasons that they're not accessible,

1:00:37one of which is just this really hard to push a manual chair

1:00:39or even a stroller or a walker through them.

1:00:43Thank you very much.

1:00:44I really appreciate the additional clarity.

1:00:47Thank you. Thank you, worship.

1:00:48Okay, thank you. And I don't see anything more.

1:00:50So Lorelai, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

1:00:55And thank you again for your work on ACC.

1:00:59We appreciate it.

1:01:01Thank you so much.

1:01:02Great.

1:01:04Okay, I think what we can do then

1:01:07is there's nothing further.

1:01:08What I, could I please have a motion from council

1:01:14to at least table the recommendations

1:01:17brought forward from committee to today.

1:01:20Downer and O'Rourke, thank you so much.

1:01:24Those are probably, you know, I would imagine that's fine

1:01:28except we know that there's probably some

1:01:31potential amendments coming forward here.

1:01:33So why don't we just jump into that?

1:01:35Okay, councillor, Kate, you wanted to try to table

1:01:39some amendments.

1:01:41So if you wouldn't mind reading them,

1:01:43it looks like councillor Goller doesn't even need them read

1:01:46or said he's willing to second them.

1:01:50But why don't I just turn it over to you to introduce them?

1:01:55As I said to the clerks that they've been moved

1:01:56and seconded already, them by Gowler as the seconder.

1:01:59And I will just give you just a minute or two

1:02:02just to kind of give some framing

1:02:04to why you want to move these amendments.

1:02:06So go ahead.

1:02:09Through you, is it okay that we do them individually?

1:02:15Because I think that there's gonna be potentially people

1:02:17who have feelings on certain ones but not others.

1:02:21Absolutely, what we'll do is,

1:02:23I think all of them are now officially tabled

1:02:27because they've been all moved by you,

1:02:29seconded by councillor Goller.

1:02:30But what we could do is just ask them to be separated.

1:02:33So now we can just talk about each one of them separately.

1:02:36Okay, so yeah, why don't you go with number one?

1:02:39And I think I'll just go to councillor Allt's suggestion now.

1:02:41Mayor Guthrie, point of order.

1:02:43Oh, point of order, sorry, I didn't hear that.

1:02:45Councillor Katelyn, read the individual motions

1:02:50that are tabled.

1:02:51I think we've changed it in our procedural biologist

1:02:53to make sure if somebody's,

1:02:55so they haven't been published anywhere,

1:02:56so somebody's just listening in, then at least,

1:02:59yeah, just gonna read them.

1:03:00Yeah, for sure, I was just about to get to that.

1:03:04I just wanted them as councillor Allt asked

1:03:06to have them up on the screen.

1:03:07So I want them visual.

1:03:09And then on each one, if you could read out each one,

1:03:12you don't have to read each one now,

1:03:15just start with number one, and then we'll discuss it.

1:03:17Okay, go ahead, councillor Katelyn.

1:03:21Once you see it up on the screen there,

1:03:23if you wouldn't mind reading number one out for us.

1:03:25Thank you.

1:03:26Thank you, through you.

1:03:29Motion number one, that the final PRMP include a requirement

1:03:32that all new playgrounds and walls include a minimum

1:03:34of two wheelchair accessible play equipment,

1:03:37and that talk tubes are not considered

1:03:39one of those features.

1:03:41So first, I wanted to say thanks to staff

1:03:43for all of their work on this plan.

1:03:44I think we're making great strides towards inclusion

1:03:47and equity.

1:03:47There's a lot to love in the Park and Recreation master plan.

1:03:52I think that with the addition of a few small metrics,

1:03:54we can make this 100% perfect.

1:03:57I realized this morning that it's actually been a year today,

1:04:01since I thought I was voted on to council,

1:04:03and playground accessibility was one of the main drivers

1:04:06between like behind me choosing to run.

1:04:08So it's pretty special for me to be presenting

1:04:10these motions today, exactly a year later.

1:04:14The current interpretation of accessibility for play

1:04:16in our design manuals includes locating

1:04:19height accessible plate options within the wood chip area

1:04:23of the playground.

1:04:24And this is not independently accessible by all children

1:04:27or caregivers.

1:04:28This motion ensures that even in new playgrounds

1:04:30that don't have the rubber services,

1:04:32there'll be an opportunity for some options along the edge

1:04:35of the pavement surrounding the play space,

1:04:37which is consistent with our equity lens

1:04:39and our strategic plan and our goal

1:04:41to be an age friendly community.

1:04:43This is a design layout requirement.

1:04:45It should not increase the cost per playground.

1:04:48It simply allows people with mobility issues

1:04:50to have some play at areas close to their home.

1:04:59On that, thank you.

1:05:01So why don't we just just on this number one, okay?

1:05:05And we've got several to go through.

1:05:07So I'm just gonna say it right now.

1:05:08Let's be very efficient here.

1:05:11Okay, questions directly to staff on just this issue.

1:05:14Gonna start with Downer, then I'll go Guller-Alt.

1:05:18Thanks.

1:05:19Through you, Mr. Mayor, to staff.

1:05:22So, you know, the public hasn't seen this,

1:05:25but we did get some responses to these motions

1:05:30from staff concerns and what was,

1:05:34so the motion says that all playgrounds include,

1:05:39playgrounds include a minimum of two wheelchair accessible

1:05:43play equipment and accept the talk tube, right?

1:05:49But your response to us was that we already,

1:05:54that all playgrounds in Guelph are designed

1:05:57to be accessible and in compliance with the AODA.

1:06:01So is this, so how would you interpret this motion

1:06:05if that's what you're considering that we already do?

1:06:08So I'm just sort of trying to distinguish between what we do

1:06:11and what is being asked.

1:06:14Through the mayor to Councillor Downer.

1:06:18We see this as a step potentially towards rubber surfaces

1:06:23in our playgrounds, but that's coming,

1:06:25there are motions coming up that speak to that specific topic

1:06:29later as our understanding.

1:06:32So I would revisit what staff has provided

1:06:35and for clarity, so the clarity matters here

1:06:37is that all new playgrounds in Guelph

1:06:39are designed to be accessible and in compliance

1:06:42with AODA and the city's FADM.

1:06:46Though it not a legislative requirement,

1:06:48we have taken a position to exceed legislative requirements

1:06:52and design in our playgrounds where we can.

1:06:55This includes a minimum and accessible pathway

1:06:58and ramp into the play space,

1:07:0025% of total play components at ground level,

1:07:03different types of ground level play components

1:07:06that are integrated into the play space,

1:07:0950% of elevated play components on an accessible route

1:07:13connected by ramps or transfer stations,

1:07:16and safety surfacing, which would be important to,

1:07:19we're getting into detail here,

1:07:21but if we're gonna be designing features

1:07:22that are used beside a pathway,

1:07:24there may be safety surfacing that's needed

1:07:26within the footprint, the rubberized surface,

1:07:30or the wood fiber area of the playground.

1:07:33Staff note though, and we note continually

1:07:37that engineered wood fiber,

1:07:39which is commonly used as a safety surface

1:07:42for playgrounds in Guelph,

1:07:45although it meets standards, there are challenges with that,

1:07:49and we're aware of that.

1:07:50We try to meet those expectations

1:07:54in our operation practices, the maintenance of those areas,

1:07:58and as we'll get to later,

1:07:59we are looking to add rubberized surface,

1:08:03where we can, and where there's a good opportunity to,

1:08:07in our parks.

1:08:08I'd also add at a high level,

1:08:10we very, very much appreciate the conversations,

1:08:14the debate, the insight that we get with the AAC,

1:08:19it's meaningful, it's important, we wanna continue that,

1:08:23and that really is where a lot of detail

1:08:25and the fine planning, fine tuning to our plans

1:08:28can take place, and we're committed to keeping that happen,

1:08:31both in our overall approach,

1:08:33and with each specific playground.

1:08:36So each one of our playgrounds go through the AAC

1:08:41before they're signed off on, is that correct?

1:08:45Three of Mayor Guthrie, the Councillor Downard,

1:08:47that's correct, and we're happy to continue that.

1:08:49So I'm just trying to, I'm sort of struggling here

1:08:53with this motion, because it sounds like

1:08:57the way it's written is that

1:09:02the motion doesn't interpret what's accessible.

1:09:06What we're doing now is accessible from our standards,

1:09:09plus you change them.

1:09:10I know it's about the wood chips and the rubber service,

1:09:13I agree that wood chips are not

1:09:16having taken people in roadshare places,

1:09:19it's just not accessible.

1:09:22So what I'm trying to, but I understand,

1:09:27I'm just sort of seeing how functional is this motion,

1:09:30if staff are already interpreting

1:09:32that we do have accessible playgrounds.

1:09:36So I'm just, I guess this leaves me to,

1:09:40would it be beneficial for these motions

1:09:42to go to the AAC for a proper discussion

1:09:46to, on the wording of them and how they would come back

1:09:50in a form that sort of represents

1:09:54more of what you're suggesting is around the rubber,

1:09:58moving towards rubberized walkways and the other things.

1:10:02I'm just, I know you've already been,

1:10:04like I hear it four or five times,

1:10:07but they haven't, as Laurel even said,

1:10:09they haven't seen these motions.

1:10:11And these motions have specific motions

1:10:13haven't been discussed.

1:10:16And so I know we're talking about, there's all of them,

1:10:20but I'm sort of concerned about this one,

1:10:22that the wording voting on this by itself

1:10:25is kind of redundant because it's already accessible

1:10:28from staff's perspective, right?

1:10:31So I don't know that it would make any difference,

1:10:34but I understand that Councillor Kayton

1:10:37has a different interpretation

1:10:39of what that accessibility would mean.

1:10:42And it's not that I disagree with her interpretation,

1:10:45it's just how is that,

1:10:47whose interpretation is it gonna be, what's accessible?

1:10:52And if each one of these,

1:10:53I'm just wondering if, the more I talk it out

1:10:58to myself here, it sounds like,

1:11:00I'm just wondering if these should all go to the AAC.

1:11:04The other thing too, I would ask,

1:11:07and these may be for later ones,

1:11:08but there's gonna be budget implications for these.

1:11:11We get the capital budget next week,

1:11:13not that that's gonna be like,

1:11:16if these things need to be done, then that's fine,

1:11:18but how would these get incorporated?

1:11:22And we've also heard that incorporating all of these

1:11:26would mean that some playgrounds wouldn't get done

1:11:29in the 10-year capital budget,

1:11:31which if we make it more accessible for everybody,

1:11:33that may be a trade-off.

1:11:35But if we're changing our service level on the fly here,

1:11:39I'm concerned, like, you know what,

1:11:41at meeting like this.

1:11:43So I'm just, and it's not that it's completely on the fly.

1:11:46I mean, we've had these motions a couple of days,

1:11:48but it hasn't gone through the AAC.

1:11:51They haven't been properly vetted by staff

1:11:53in a full report to council that's public.

1:11:57So I'm just sort of struggling with this.

1:12:03I don't know what, what.

1:12:06Okay.

1:12:08So maybe, sorry, maybe I could just jump in

1:12:10to just help facilitate.

1:12:12I think the crux of the question is,

1:12:15you know, would there be value into having this sent

1:12:18through to the ACC, all of them,

1:12:22even though there's an acknowledgement

1:12:23that it's already been there several times.

1:12:26So can we have staff, can we have staff at least

1:12:28just respond to that portion of what

1:12:30Councillor Downer has brought up?

1:12:34Through the mayor to the mayor and to Councillor Downer.

1:12:39As you mentioned, Councillor Downer,

1:12:42our staff do take the time to have

1:12:44those meaningful conversations.

1:12:46So we're doing that.

1:12:47At this moment, we do stand by and support

1:12:50the recommendations in our parks recreation master plan

1:12:53as they stand on budget.

1:12:56Just briefly, I don't necessarily want to speak

1:12:58to that in motion one, because if we're going to go

1:13:01through an order, budget impact is less so in motion one,

1:13:05the more relevant to motions down the road.

1:13:09Staff plan necessarily interpret the AODA compliance

1:13:12or the FADM, we apply it.

1:13:14So standards exist and we are working hard

1:13:16to apply those standards in great collaboration,

1:13:20whether it's through our community engagement

1:13:22or with the AAC.

1:13:25Taking that back to the AAC is something we can explore.

1:13:30I want to be careful in the moment to not over commit

1:13:34to staff time with that also.

1:13:35So we would want to take that back.

1:13:37I would say to council though, and again,

1:13:39to take a step back from that higher level look,

1:13:43and we heard it earlier this evening,

1:13:45this can't be a plan that is the last plan

1:13:48that generations to see.

1:13:49And we are committed to updating this plan

1:13:52at good intervals, five-year interval is something

1:13:55I believe identified in the plan,

1:13:57certainly something that we talked to

1:13:59at committee of the whole.

1:14:03I wonder, and again, we want to take this back

1:14:04for a more detailed conversation to explore,

1:14:07yes, how we can engage those ongoing conversations

1:14:10with the AAC to explore these motions.

1:14:13We can consider that.

1:14:15But again, we have that built in sale face.

1:14:17Granted, it's at five years to really dig deeper

1:14:20into these service delivery changes

1:14:24that can have other unintended consequences.

1:14:26So I'm being succinct, there's that high level of you,

1:14:29and I would like councillor Downer to take that back,

1:14:32those immediate conversations

1:14:34to see what we can come up with with the AAC.

1:14:37Yeah, so what I wonder, I understand deputy CEO,

1:14:43quite push would like, but I just want to just sort of

1:14:46recap sort of that.

1:14:47So if we could approve the whole plan

1:14:52and still because this is a living document,

1:14:55we could refer these to the AAC and staff.

1:14:57And then because it's a living document,

1:15:00it can still come back as an amendment at any time.

1:15:03And so maybe deputy CEO, Claude Bush,

1:15:06could respond to that part.

1:15:08So thank you through the mayor

1:15:10to councillor Downer and to all of council.

1:15:12And I mean, Mr. Matthews has summarized it.

1:15:14I don't need to repeat what he said.

1:15:15I think the challenge that we and you are struggling with

1:15:17is these are emotions that have not been vetted

1:15:19through the public forum.

1:15:21So nobody, I mean, some delegates saw them,

1:15:24but the general public didn't see them.

1:15:26They didn't come through the committee the whole process.

1:15:28And that is also causing us some challenges

1:15:30because the AAC hasn't reviewed them.

1:15:33I do want to give a lot of credit to the staff.

1:15:35They were in front of the AAC four times on this plan.

1:15:39And so that challenge for us is,

1:15:43we're before you with the parks and rec master plan.

1:15:45And I don't want to recommend that you not approve it tonight

1:15:49because then that stops the work

1:15:52that we really want to move forward.

1:15:54So again, I'm not speaking necessarily to the specific motion

1:15:57but to the totality of the motions,

1:16:00approving the parks and rec master plan in principle

1:16:03and letting us move forward and referring it to budget

1:16:06is how we're going to keep this work moving forward.

1:16:09The specifics of councillor Caton's motions,

1:16:12certainly we can take those away.

1:16:13We can have a subsequent conversation with the AAC

1:16:15about how we might operationalize that.

1:16:18But as Mr. Matthew said,

1:16:20there are not necessarily the first motion,

1:16:22but some of these motions have significant budget impacts.

1:16:25And I don't want to mislead you.

1:16:27We will not be able to revise the capital budget

1:16:30before it's released next week.

1:16:32There are capital budget implications

1:16:35of what's being proposed.

1:16:36We will not be able to do that before next week.

1:16:40So what it means is,

1:16:41as we go through the life of this plan,

1:16:43we'll continue to work with the AAC

1:16:45and if there are modifications we make,

1:16:48rather than doing, and again now

1:16:49where I'm starting to speak out of turn,

1:16:51so Jean will have to jump up and down if I get it wrong,

1:16:53rather than doing three to four playground replacements a year

1:16:56within the budget, we might have to do two to three

1:16:59because we haven't yet costed what the implications are.

1:17:02We just know that the implications

1:17:04could be in the range of 25 to 40%.

1:17:06So that is the, I think that's the challenge

1:17:09and I recognize you're now in a difficult position

1:17:11because you've got, we all want to make sure

1:17:14that we're doing right by the community

1:17:16where accessibility is concerned.

1:17:17I don't think that's, I hope that's not in any doubt

1:17:20for anyone, we're committed to it.

1:17:22We're working with our staff accessibility team.

1:17:25Leanne Warren has been a great ally for us on this,

1:17:29but we're operating in a bit of a vacuum

1:17:31because the AAC hasn't considered these motions.

1:17:33And I think you even heard that with Ms. Root

1:17:35that she was struggling because she can't speak

1:17:38on behalf of the committee who hasn't yet

1:17:40viewed these five motions.

1:17:42So I know that was a bit rambly.

1:17:45I guess what I'm trying to say is refer back to staff

1:17:49for discussion with the AAC, absolutely,

1:17:53but not in the absence of approving the plan

1:17:56because I just want you to go into eyes wide open

1:17:59if the plan isn't approved tonight,

1:18:01that then has implications in terms of how we can move

1:18:04this work forward.

1:18:05Well, other people can ask questions.

1:18:13I don't want to stop that.

1:18:14My preference though would be to refer it back to staff

1:18:19to have discussions with the AAC have,

1:18:22because some of these are operational,

1:18:25you know, the no tube top things

1:18:26are quite operational issues.

1:18:29And it's not that I disagree or agree with any of them.

1:18:31A lot of them, there's quite a bit of it that, you know,

1:18:34I understand and agree with having people

1:18:36with disabilities within my family.

1:18:39But I also need to have a complete information in front of me

1:18:45from a policy perspective

1:18:49and a financial perspective going forward.

1:18:52And it's not that, well, that maybe two to three

1:18:55might be better if it's accessible for everybody.

1:18:58I don't know, but I don't have that service level

1:19:01understanding or definitive,

1:19:03this is what staff is guessing

1:19:05because we don't have the real information in front of us

1:19:09of those implications.

1:19:11And it would have been my preference to refer these back

1:19:15to staff to have further discussions with the AAC

1:19:19and report back.

1:19:20And then we could then start looking at this in the 2024

1:19:23and on budget and how we could modify those.

1:19:26I mean, those budgets might would have to stay the same,

1:19:28but then if we want to change our service levels

1:19:33or the interpretation of accessibility

1:19:35within how we want them to be, then that's my sense right now.

1:19:41I'm just worried about making a decision

1:19:42without the complete picture before me.

1:19:45If counselors, I just sort of just,

1:19:49would the counselors want to ask questions before I do that?

1:19:51Cause I don't want to cut off discussion.

1:19:56Yeah, of course.

1:19:57I did have three more people on my list only anyways.

1:20:01So, and I know that we're only talking to the first one

1:20:05because they've all been separated.

1:20:07But let me at least just go through the list here.

1:20:11I know that we can do that pretty quickly

1:20:16and then I can try to see where this can go from there.

1:20:19Alt, you're next, then Richardson.

1:20:22Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

1:20:24I appreciate that.

1:20:25I certainly didn't want to see this referred

1:20:27without having some questions asked

1:20:29because I've got to admit that I'm in a bit of a,

1:20:32a lack of understanding about much of this.

1:20:36So I do have questions for both staff and for the mover.

1:20:40And the first question I think I'll ask to both the mover

1:20:42and then to staff, what is defined

1:20:45as an accessible play amenity?

1:20:47I don't know.

1:20:48And this will help me with number one.

1:20:51So through to the mover, please.

1:20:56Thank you.

1:20:58Through the mayor to counselor, Alt.

1:21:01So an accessible play equipment,

1:21:05if you take the AODA, which is two revisions out of date,

1:21:12as the example, they will allow wood chips,

1:21:15which we've just heard from chair root

1:21:17is not actually wheelchair accessible.

1:21:20So when we hear staff say that it's completely accessible,

1:21:27it is completely accessible to those standards

1:21:30which are not actually wheelchair accessible in experience.

1:21:36So any play equipment that is on there

1:21:40is not independently accessible by someone

1:21:42who has to travel over wood chips

1:21:43and doesn't have a mobility device

1:21:46that is capable of doing that

1:21:47or doesn't have somebody else

1:21:48who can actually move them over to it.

1:21:51So as you'd heard chair root say, there is an entire design

1:21:55where they're talking about accessibility

1:21:57and how this was accessible.

1:21:58And there were transfer stations on a wood chip area.

1:22:03So that is what I'm considering an inaccessible design

1:22:08by practical standards

1:22:10that is considered accessible by AODA standards.

1:22:14So this is a bit of a language issue, right?

1:22:17So you can say, if you're following the AODA

1:22:19that is accessible,

1:22:20but it's not actually accessible in practice.

1:22:23So this motion would include that two options

1:22:28would be independently accessible by wheelchair users.

1:22:33And when I discuss this with staff,

1:22:36we talked about how some equipment is on the edge

1:22:39of the paved area of a playground.

1:22:41So it's just about locating some play panels

1:22:44or whatever it is that they choose to do.

1:22:46Like I'm not gonna get into the design of it.

1:22:49I just know that the talk tubes were very specifically

1:22:51brought up by the AAC when I was a member of the AAC

1:22:55for a year that those were not considered

1:23:01a dignified play choice because it was segregating

1:23:04and you could talk to other kids

1:23:06who were able to access play equipment.

1:23:08And basically it was alienating.

1:23:11So that's why I wanted to make sure

1:23:12that that wasn't considered one of them

1:23:14so that there were some more active play options

1:23:17along the edges or wherever they choose to put them

1:23:20in the design so that every playground

1:23:24has some accessible features

1:23:27even if we're going to be doing

1:23:29the majority of them in wood chips.

1:23:32Thank you, Councillor Katelyn.

1:23:33And the same question to staff.

1:23:35I was wondering if there could be any concrete examples

1:23:40of what might be considered an accessible play structure

1:23:44or are we considered perhaps them all to be accessible?

1:23:49Through the mayor to Councillor Allt.

1:23:52So specific to wheelchair needs, ground level play

1:23:56would be a succinct way to put that

1:23:58though we should highlight that there are a wide variety

1:24:02of accessibility needs that exist with our playgrounds.

1:24:05And I think that it's important

1:24:07that we get the record accurate here, Councillor Allt.

1:24:10And I'm wondering if that's information in greater detail

1:24:13that staff can provide to Council on background.

1:24:16Well, I do actually wonder that.

1:24:18I wonder actually if I'm even delving

1:24:20into the area of operations.

1:24:21But I thought I should ask that

1:24:24because it strikes me that much of this centers around

1:24:28some fairly concrete items that are being requested.

1:24:31And that's, it's a difficult one.

1:24:33Thank you.

1:24:37Next question.

1:24:38Does the AAC actually get to approve playgrounds

1:24:42or are they just asked to provide feedback

1:24:45on what parks are doing?

1:24:51Through the mayor to Councillor Allt.

1:24:53I'm gonna confirm, I'm just having some staff

1:24:55post some information.

1:24:57Staff will ultimately have the final approval,

1:25:01is my understanding.

1:25:02Of course, we very much value the input from the AAC.

1:25:06I'll confirm our more intimate process though

1:25:08as the meeting progresses, Councillor Allt.

1:25:11Thank you very much.

1:25:12Last question, Mayor Guthrie for the mover.

1:25:15I have heard concerns about this year's budget.

1:25:19In your motions, was there an intention

1:25:22that these be considered in this year's budget year?

1:25:26That's a significant question for me.

1:25:30Thank you.

1:25:31Through the mayor to you, Councillor Allt.

1:25:33This was a, when new playgrounds are being redesigned

1:25:39that these be new metrics that are included in the design.

1:25:44And for this particular motion, as Mr. Matthews said,

1:25:49this one doesn't have as much of a budget impact

1:25:52because it just includes placement of play equipment

1:25:56rather than type and style and any other kind of requirements.

1:26:02So this one would have very little budget impact

1:26:04just generally, it would be more about the process

1:26:10and availability of the locations.

1:26:15It's supplementary, Mayor Guthrie.

1:26:17So what I'm hearing you say for the most part

1:26:20is that these are questions of policy

1:26:23to establish a more firm policy.

1:26:28I'm not even certain of my words here

1:26:30rather than action items for immediate respond.

1:26:38Through the mayor, yes, that's correct.

1:26:40Thank you.

1:26:43Hey, Richardson, please.

1:26:45Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

1:26:47Really, all my questions were answered mostly

1:26:49by DCO Clock Bush.

1:26:51So that's great.

1:26:52I was gonna make a comment if I may

1:26:55and say that Guelph has been a leader

1:26:57in accessibility for a long, long time.

1:26:59And they've always had a very active AAC.

1:27:02And I know that staff and the committee together

1:27:05work very diligently to go over and above

1:27:08the basic ADO standards.

1:27:10So I'm seeing a lot of these things

1:27:12would be working in that living document

1:27:14and to be sort of assessed at the time

1:27:17that we're doing those new buildings

1:27:18or new playgrounds because there's more creative things

1:27:21coming every year that we haven't even thought of

1:27:23that we might wanna implement.

1:27:25So I was really just gonna say if Councillor Downer

1:27:27was ready to move that, I would second.

1:27:31Okay, what I'll do is I only have one more person

1:27:34on the list.

1:27:34So why don't I just,

1:27:35just get some questions about these out

1:27:37and then we can look to move the motion to refer.

1:27:40Guller, you're last on the list then.

1:27:43Thank you, through your worship.

1:27:45All my questions have been asked.

1:27:47I would just ask my council colleagues

1:27:49to, in their consideration of referring

1:27:52to some of these, refer the ones that you really feel

1:27:54that have a budget impact.

1:27:56The first one we've heard from staff

1:27:58does not have a budget significant budget impact.

1:28:00Let's move this one.

1:28:02Let's approve number one.

1:28:04And then we can look at the other ones.

1:28:05I feel some concern about referring all of them

1:28:10when they haven't even been read out loud

1:28:12and we haven't really considered them all.

1:28:15Thank you.

1:28:15All right, thank you.

1:28:16My apologies, I did forget.

1:28:19So sorry, Councillor O'Rourke,

1:28:21you and then I'll go to Councillor Downer.

1:28:24Thank you, Marga, through you, through you.

1:28:26So we still haven't read the five recommendations

1:28:29which was a change of the procedural bylaw

1:28:31for accessibility because when people have

1:28:35the recommendations on a published agenda,

1:28:39they can see them on their screen reader, right?

1:28:41So I think it's in our procedural bylaw

1:28:42that we're supposed to read.

1:28:43So Councillor O'Rourke, I'm gonna jump in.

1:28:45I was getting to that.

1:28:46You keep telling me to do something I was getting to.

1:28:49So I was gonna get to that once the,

1:28:52if the referral was put down,

1:28:53I was gonna ask for all of them to be read

1:28:55so that it was very clear.

1:28:57So I'm just not there yet though as the chair.

1:29:00So you just gotta give me the time to get to that moment, okay?

1:29:02Okay, well, just to comment, it feels awkward

1:29:06because people are listening

1:29:07and they don't know what we're talking about.

1:29:08So, okay.

1:29:10So my question is to staff for motions one, two, four and five.

1:29:19Would the referral even delay the application of those?

1:29:23So motions one, two, four and five are about talk tubes

1:29:28and having something to the lower deck.

1:29:31I don't even understand what all the details are.

1:29:34But say this goes to the AAC and then staff weigh in

1:29:38and they say, no, it's six of one, half dozen of the other.

1:29:41We put in this play feature and said another.

1:29:44Does that delay implementation?

1:29:46Does it have to come back to us for approval?

1:29:49So this is very operational.

1:29:52So for those four motions, does the referral

1:29:55just for the conversation go back to staff

1:29:58and then get applied?

1:30:00We don't have to wait five years, right?

1:30:01For this to be implemented in the Parks and Work Master Plan.

1:30:05How does that work?

1:30:07Through Mayor Guthrie to Councillor Orork,

1:30:11a couple of things.

1:30:13If the motions were to be referred

1:30:16and the PRMP were to be approved

1:30:18and the applicable capital budgets be approved,

1:30:21we would envision still moving forward

1:30:24with our playground replacement program

1:30:26and our new playground work.

1:30:29And in the spirit of that collaboration,

1:30:32that important topic that we were all talking about tonight,

1:30:35all of the proposed motions one, two, three, four

1:30:38would be a consideration from staff with the AAC

1:30:43at that deliverable level.

1:30:44We do that, we wanna do that, we'll continue to do that.

1:30:48So we would keep that going,

1:30:49that spirit of that moving forward.

1:30:51How that may apply to policy change,

1:30:54service delivery change,

1:30:55that's the work we would need to do with the AAC,

1:30:58with other community partners,

1:31:00probably a broader engagement process would need to

1:31:03and should take place with that.

1:31:05And it would take some time for us to get that, right?

1:31:08Is it three months to eight months to a year?

1:31:10I don't know.

1:31:11We'd wanna take some time to get back to staff.

1:31:13What I'm trying to say is that in the spirit of the motions,

1:31:17those have been and will continue to be talking points

1:31:19with the AAC and we can collaborate to do

1:31:23that broader policy work, that broader review in good time.

1:31:28Thank you.

1:31:29Three, I got three to staff.

1:31:30So motion four is about sort of equity throughout the city.

1:31:36I'm wondering if you could describe

1:31:37whether that's already a factor in the quality

1:31:42of the play structure, like we were applying the service level

1:31:46across the city and trying to improve things in areas

1:31:49that may not meet that current service standard, right?

1:31:54Through Mayor Guthrie Council work,

1:31:56that is a factor with a lot of the capital work

1:31:58that we do in parks.

1:31:59Thanks.

1:32:00And Mayor Guthrie, through you to the mover,

1:32:02actually my last question.

1:32:04So this is really probably the tricky one, right?

1:32:07So I'm wondering how you've arrived at the new distance

1:32:12and also the date.

1:32:13So that motion talks about just looking for it.

1:32:21Sorry, there's lots.

1:32:23So it's, you know, after 2026,

1:32:25we would go to a smaller radius.

1:32:27So I'm just wondering why that date.

1:32:34Thank you.

1:32:34Through the mayor to council.

1:32:39I picked a date on a timeline

1:32:42that would be far enough out

1:32:45that they would have a chance to work on the ones

1:32:50that they've already got down.

1:32:51And it wouldn't affect the timeline for the playgrounds

1:32:55they've got slotted for in the next four years.

1:32:58So the motion is to just identify the gaps.

1:33:03It isn't to set the timeline or pick which one would be

1:33:08up for renewal or for redesign.

1:33:12The intent was as parks come up for regular maintenance

1:33:17or as they need to be fixed,

1:33:19then those would be the ones that are selected

1:33:22to have rubber services when they're in need of repair

1:33:25or in need of upgrade.

1:33:27So it wouldn't affect the timelines

1:33:32of any of these parks being redone.

1:33:34It's more about which ones would be indicated

1:33:39as a rubber surface option,

1:33:42kind of like how they picked the two

1:33:44that are already in the plan that they plan to fix up,

1:33:48but there is no indication of when those would have

1:33:51to be done or the specific priorities around them.

1:33:58Okay.

1:34:00So through you, Marguerite Timmover,

1:34:02you're asking for the recommendation to 33 to be revised

1:34:07to read apply a service level target

1:34:10of one rubber surface playground within 2.5 kilometers

1:34:13of residential areas until 2025,

1:34:16moving to a target of one rubber surface playground

1:34:19within 1.5 kilometers of residential areas starting in 2026.

1:34:23So that, I mean, I'm hearing you explain,

1:34:26it's about identifying the gap,

1:34:28but I think the motion is very specific.

1:34:30That one, I think absolutely has to be referred

1:34:33because I don't know if the distance is right.

1:34:35I don't know if the dates are right.

1:34:36I don't know what the implications are

1:34:37or the process would be.

1:34:40Okay. I appreciate it.

1:34:41I wanted to understand those motions more specifically.

1:34:45Thanks.

1:34:46Any problem?

1:34:48Okay. So what I'm going to do is,

1:34:53I'm just going to ask, I guess,

1:34:55Councillor Downer and Councillor Richardson,

1:34:58if you would be willing to,

1:34:59did you have time to move,

1:35:02did you still want to move a motion over for all?

1:35:09Sorry. Yes.

1:35:10Three, Mr. Mayor.

1:35:11Okay.

1:35:12So I'm just sort of like working sort of with it.

1:35:15Now, what I think is,

1:35:16because we're just dealing with one,

1:35:20and but like to me, one's not clear enough because,

1:35:23on itself, because we have two different interpretations

1:35:28of how accessible they're going to be, right?

1:35:31So there's the, what staff is saying,

1:35:33and then what Councillor Katelyn is saying

1:35:37are two different things, right?

1:35:39So who will be interpreting that?

1:35:42It'll be staff.

1:35:43So that's because they've got their standards now

1:35:46that they're using.

1:35:47So my, I was thinking of a motion,

1:35:51but it's not just on one, it's that motions one to five

1:35:54be referred to staff to continue to work with the AAC to,

1:35:59and report back to Council,

1:36:00if any new service levels are required.

1:36:03So it's like, some of these are operational,

1:36:06like talk tubes, well, yeah, if they're saying no,

1:36:09and that's, then I don't know why we do them, right?

1:36:13So like, why wouldn't staff be in agreement with that?

1:36:15But there's other things here,

1:36:17like around the service level and number three,

1:36:19that's a significant service level thing.

1:36:21I think we all need to understand that more,

1:36:24going from 2.5 and 1.5,

1:36:28and it does impact the budgets

1:36:31because we have a 10 year capital budget.

1:36:33That's what we'll be approving next month

1:36:37is a 10 year capital budget.

1:36:39So it's not a four year operations budget.

1:36:42So if anything comes back with changes

1:36:46and that we can change the budget next year,

1:36:48but it might mean implications for other things,

1:36:51and we need to understand that.

1:36:53So as we've heard, it's too late to change for this year,

1:36:57and staff need time to have more in-depth looking at this,

1:37:01but they also need to have a much broader discussion

1:37:04with the AAC around these motions.

1:37:08And I could agree with some of these service level changes,

1:37:13but are they service level changes?

1:37:14Are they operational issues that when staff take a part

1:37:19to the Accessibility Advisory Committee

1:37:24that they are then designing these on a one-off issue,

1:37:29and some of them will need the rep.

1:37:31We can look at some of the rubberized things,

1:37:33or maybe there needs to be other things adjusted within it.

1:37:37Certainly I'd like to see the playgrounds

1:37:40more accessible and inclusive to everyone,

1:37:43and I appreciate this discussion

1:37:45and these things being brought forward

1:37:47because I think it's an important discussion.

1:37:49But I also think it's too important

1:37:52to be just making like this tonight

1:37:54without the full information,

1:37:57and without that further discussion with the AAC

1:38:00because the chair couldn't respond

1:38:03to a number of these issues.

1:38:05Okay, and Councillor Richardson,

1:38:06you're okay to second that referral?

1:38:08Okay.

1:38:09Point of order, Your Worship.

1:38:11Sorry, Your Worship.

1:38:12We are referring motions that have not been read out loud.

1:38:16Well, actually they all are on the floor,

1:38:18but we're dealing with the one by one.

1:38:20I don't know why I have to keep explaining this,

1:38:22and so if it's on me, then I'll apologize.

1:38:25I've already stated that I will be reading out

1:38:28every single one of the motions.

1:38:30I was just about to do that.

1:38:32I've already got the clerks ready

1:38:34to put them up on the screen in advance,

1:38:36but you guys keep interrupting me to say

1:38:38that I gotta do something that I'm about to continue to do.

1:38:40So please, please know that I'm about

1:38:43to actually do that right now, okay?

1:38:46So can I please have the motions that I've asked for,

1:38:49prepared and put up on the screen please?

1:38:54Thank you.

1:38:55I am going to read out each one,

1:38:58that the final PRMP include a requirement

1:39:01that all new playgrounds and Guelph

1:39:03include a minimum of two wheelchair accessible play equipment

1:39:06and that talk tubes are not considered

1:39:08one of those features.

1:39:09Number two, that the final PRMP include a requirement

1:39:14that all new playgrounds and Guelph

1:39:16include at least one play structure

1:39:18that is wheelchair accessible to the lowest deck.

1:39:21Number three, that the recommendation number 33

1:39:24in the Parks and Rec Master Plan

1:39:26be revised to read apply a service level target

1:39:30of one rubber surface playground

1:39:32within 2.5 kilometers of residential areas until 2025,

1:39:37moving to a target of one rubber surface playground

1:39:40within 1.5 kilometers of residential areas starting in 2026.

1:39:45And number four, that the final PRMP include a recommendation

1:39:50that areas of economic need will be a factor

1:39:53in determining the location of playgrounds

1:39:55with rubber safety surface.

1:39:58Number five, that the final PRMP include a recommendation

1:40:03to work with the accessibility advisory committee

1:40:05to establish a target ratio of playgrounds

1:40:07that have rubber safety surface.

1:40:11Okay, all of them have been read, okay?

1:40:14And now we are speaking only to the referral.

1:40:18I'll go to you, Councillor Caden.

1:40:21Thank you.

1:40:24I think that, through you to everyone,

1:40:28I think that number five on its own is referring to the AAC.

1:40:33So I don't know that referring the request of first staff

1:40:38to talk to the AAC and create a plan is a good referral.

1:40:45Like basically we could vote on that one now

1:40:47because that's basically asking them to talk to the AAC.

1:40:51So I was wondering if we could separate that one out

1:40:57because it just, luckily doesn't make sense to me.

1:41:02Yeah, I just, I can't.

1:41:03No, that's not my motion.

1:41:05Yeah, I can't do that.

1:41:06It's a referral for all.

1:41:09And so it has to be kind of encapsulated as to one referral.

1:41:13So yeah, by the way, I want you to know

1:41:17that I understand what you're saying.

1:41:18So I don't disagree with you, but it is, yeah,

1:41:22we're kind of referring something to refer them

1:41:24to do the thing that's there.

1:41:26I get what you're saying,

1:41:27but I think it's just encapsulating the referral as to one.

1:41:30So, okay, is there any other, sorry, Councillor Caden,

1:41:35you have the floor, I'm sorry, I interrupted you, go ahead.

1:41:37No worries, through you to staff.

1:41:40So if this gets referred, will the,

1:41:46if the AAC accepts it, is staff going to accept it?

1:41:57Through the mayor to Councillor Caden,

1:41:59we will very much accept it.

1:42:01We want to do this work, it's meaningful work

1:42:03and it will be the direction of council to do the work.

1:42:05So yes.

1:42:09Next question through you, Mr. Mayor.

1:42:12So is there a way to put it?

1:42:13I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, Councillor Caden,

1:42:15I'm going to interrupt because I want to make sure

1:42:18that Jean just answered that question the way

1:42:20I think it was posed by the Councillor.

1:42:23So Councillor Caden, you tell me

1:42:24if I misinterpreted your question.

1:42:27I heard your question as if this passes

1:42:31and it goes to the ACC and the ACC agrees with everything,

1:42:35does that mean you'll do it?

1:42:38Is that the way you posed your question?

1:42:40That it would then become a part of the Parks and Master Plan.

1:42:44It would be updated with his contact.

1:42:47Yeah, and then Jean, you said yes.

1:42:50So I just want to make sure I got Colleen and then Jean.

1:42:55I'm sorry, I've got Jean.

1:43:00Through the mayor to council,

1:43:02we'll do the work to consider those five motions

1:43:06and to have the conversations about how can,

1:43:09should we apply those motions?

1:43:11Again, some of them are quite operational.

1:43:15Things that we can probably should be doing.

1:43:17I don't want to commit in the moment.

1:43:19There are some things that are going to have

1:43:21other unintended consequences.

1:43:23Are going to have work plan impacts, budget impacts,

1:43:26especially around the replacements.

1:43:27The replacements are really going to be

1:43:30where we see this challenge.

1:43:32So I'm being clear, we'll do the work

1:43:35to have good meaningful conversations around those motions

1:43:39and come up with what's right.

1:43:43You still have the floor, Councillor Caden.

1:43:45Thank you.

1:43:48Through you, Mr. Mayor, is there a way

1:43:50to have an information report and a timeline attached

1:43:55to this referral so that we have measurable outcomes

1:43:59on the progress being made?

1:44:13So through the mayor to Councillor Caden,

1:44:15I'm going to jump in here.

1:44:16A little bit hard because Jean and I are sitting

1:44:18across from each other.

1:44:21We can absolutely report back to council

1:44:25and we can look at doing an information report.

1:44:27I think the first step is we need to get in front

1:44:29of the AAC and discuss these motions.

1:44:32I also want to make sure that we're clear,

1:44:33there will be budget impacts.

1:44:36And so we're going to need to come back to council on,

1:44:39and I think Councillor Downey's motion talks

1:44:40about service level and I think that's going

1:44:42to be the quandary by the time we get back in front of you,

1:44:45you will have passed the budget.

1:44:47We can't make changes to the budget,

1:44:49so it's going to have to be service level changes,

1:44:52which we have to come back to you on.

1:44:54We won't make those changes without telling you

1:44:57and the public.

1:44:58So that was a rambly way of saying yes.

1:45:00I think we not only can commit to an information report,

1:45:03we're going to have to because that,

1:45:06as Mr. Matthew said,

1:45:08we will absolutely action these recommendations,

1:45:11but there's going to be impacts

1:45:12and so we will need to come back to you and report.

1:45:15I think once we talk to the AAC,

1:45:17we'll have a better sense of,

1:45:18is that an information report?

1:45:20Or we are actually coming back and seeking your direction.

1:45:23And I think we'll have to wait

1:45:25till we've had the conversation with the AAC.

1:45:30Through the mayor, thank you, Ms. Klathbush,

1:45:32for your clarity.

1:45:34I appreciate your being forthright on that.

1:45:38With that in mind, then I will endorse the referral.

1:45:46Okay, thank you, councillor.

1:45:49Is there anything further at all?

1:45:52Okay, I'd just like to say something on this.

1:45:54I, look, I want to know,

1:46:03and I guess I just want, this is a question, I guess.

1:46:07I actually want to know the financial impacts

1:46:11prior to the 2025 budget.

1:46:15So would we be able to at least get an information report

1:46:19or something from staff around any of these conversations

1:46:25about what they would be so that we can,

1:46:28we can understand that those.

1:46:33So yes, just consulting quickly with Deputy CIO Lee

1:46:36here on the multi-year budget process,

1:46:38but certainly the short answer is yes,

1:46:41I think we can safely get an information report back to you

1:46:44before you're considering the,

1:46:48before we're heading into 2025.

1:46:51Okay, that's good.

1:46:53I think that's important as well.

1:46:55Okay, so thank you.

1:46:59Yeah, okay, I'll just maybe talk to the mover offline,

1:47:03just with some other background information

1:47:05I think might be relevant.

1:47:08So that's fine.

1:47:10The mover of the main mover, you, you, Councillor Caton,

1:47:12not, not, not, yeah, I don't want to talk to Councillor Downer.

1:47:16So yeah, no, it's you, Councillor Caton.

1:47:18So, okay, well, I'll look to call the vote then on,

1:47:23oh, Councillor Billings, did you want to jump in

1:47:25before I call the vote?

1:47:28Mr. Mayor, can you read the referral motion,

1:47:31not the five clauses, just the referral motion?

1:47:35Yeah, we have it ready now on the screen

1:47:37and I'm happy to read it.

1:47:39And it is that motions one through five

1:47:42be referred to staff to continue to work

1:47:44with the accessible advisory committee

1:47:46and to report back to Council

1:47:48if any new service levels are required.

1:47:53And that, that report that comes back to Council,

1:47:58to me, the, the discussion has been,

1:48:01oh, that could just be an information report,

1:48:04but that would have to come back to Council.

1:48:08Because when I'm looking at staff's comments in the email,

1:48:12when you're talking 40% of this line item in the budget,

1:48:16you're talking $5 million.

1:48:19So this isn't to me an information report.

1:48:22This is service level and financial impacts.

1:48:26So to me, is that not coming back to Council

1:48:30and not just an information report?

1:48:33Yes, you are right and I am wrong.

1:48:36And the deputy CAO will jump in to probably back you up

1:48:41by saying that I'm wrong.

1:48:42So I'll send it to the deputy CAO.

1:48:44It's through the mayor to Councillor Billings.

1:48:46I'm certainly not going to say, suggest who is wrong.

1:48:48Simply that once we have the conversation with the AAC

1:48:52we'll determine if there are any matters that are operational,

1:48:55those we would come back to you on an information report basis.

1:48:58But to your point, Councillor Billings,

1:49:00the ones that have budgetary impact

1:49:02or as Councillor Downer has phrased it,

1:49:05service level changes, we will absolutely come back to Council

1:49:08on those for your direction and decision.

1:49:11Thank you for that.

1:49:12Okay, and thanks for bringing it up.

1:49:14You were right to bring it up.

1:49:16Okay, I'll call the vote then on the referral on these five

1:49:20and then I'll move us back to the main motion.

1:49:22So is anyone against the referral?

1:49:28So that's unanimous.

1:49:29That's great, thank you.

1:49:30Okay, and now we'll go back to the main motion then.

1:49:35Does anyone need to say anything further on that

1:49:37before I call the vote on that?

1:49:39Billings and then Boussatil and then O'Rourke.

1:49:45My question to you, sorry.

1:49:47My question to you, Mr. Mayor,

1:49:50to staff, first clause is to be approved.

1:49:55But because of the referral,

1:49:57is it not more appropriate to be approved in principle?

1:50:02Given that in the past,

1:50:04Council has approved master plans in principle

1:50:08instead of just approved.

1:50:09So I wanted to hear staff's comment on

1:50:13if it can be in principle or they say no,

1:50:16it has to be approved.

1:50:19Through the Mayor to Council to be approved

1:50:23is a recommendation and that would be the recommendation

1:50:25we want to move forward.

1:50:30Okay, so I wanna ask Deputy CAO, Colin Clack, this.

1:50:34With respect to approved in principle,

1:50:37what would be the difference to you

1:50:39because you would still be moving forward

1:50:42with the plan, correct?

1:50:44Through the Mayor to Council Billings,

1:50:46I think the concern with the words in principle

1:50:48leaves some ambiguity as to what the principle is

1:50:51and staff interpretation of that.

1:50:53And so I think I'm struggling in the moment

1:50:55to think what a better way to phrase it.

1:50:57I think what I understand,

1:50:59we are looking for you to approve the Parks and Rec master plan

1:51:01so that we are clear that it is approved

1:51:03and we are moving forward.

1:51:04You've heard it even, I think from Dr. Whiteley

1:51:06that there has been concern about what happened in 2009.

1:51:09We would like to not have that confusion.

1:51:12We would like to have the clarity

1:51:13that the Parks and Rec master plan

1:51:14as presented to you tonight is approved.

1:51:17Notwithstanding that approval,

1:51:19we absolutely understand and take the referral

1:51:22of those five motions that is documented in the minutes.

1:51:24Those motions are minuted.

1:51:25So we will, I am comfortable that approving it

1:51:30still leaves everyone with the understanding

1:51:33that those five motions are to be referred back

1:51:35through staff to the AAC for consideration

1:51:37and reporting back.

1:51:38My concern within principle is if some of us aren't here

1:51:42a couple of years from now to discuss what in principle meant,

1:51:47I would just prefer the not having it ambiguous.

1:51:52Okay, and then, well, thank you for that Colleen.

1:51:55And also through you, Mr. Mayor,

1:51:56the second clause to be referred

1:51:59to the operating and capital budgets,

1:52:01you're gonna be presenting that in a few days.

1:52:05What you require for operating capital,

1:52:08these financial amounts are already included in the budget.

1:52:13It's not like council has to move a motion

1:52:17to add any of the asks for operating and capital.

1:52:21Is that correct?

1:52:23Through the mayor to councillor Billings,

1:52:24I'll use CAO Stewart's language,

1:52:26which is the budget is the gas pedal.

1:52:28So you are approving, tonight you would be approving

1:52:31the plan through the budget,

1:52:32you will approve the pace at which we implement that plan.

1:52:36And so, yes, amounts have been included

1:52:40for the Parks and Rec master plan,

1:52:42but it is at a pace that you're going to need

1:52:46to consider as part of the budget.

1:52:47As with all of our master plans,

1:52:49we've had to relook at the pace of what we're implementing

1:52:52and how quickly we're doing it

1:52:53within the constraints of that budget.

1:52:55Okay, thanks Colleen.

1:52:59Who's still please?

1:53:00Thank you, and through the mayor,

1:53:02I just actually have two questions related

1:53:04to the delegations or one question, part A and part B.

1:53:08The first one was Hugh Whiteley's presentation.

1:53:11I do have to say as a new councillor,

1:53:13I love reading history,

1:53:14it was great to read the long history of council

1:53:19and plans and processes.

1:53:21So my first question is about the advisory committee

1:53:23that was referenced there,

1:53:24the river system advisory committee.

1:53:27Can you tell me where those responsibilities exist now?

1:53:31And the part B to that is,

1:53:34the other half of the walnut,

1:53:35are those master plans that were referred to,

1:53:38the open space, that kind of responsibility,

1:53:41where they reside now?

1:53:42And then I have a second question.

1:53:46So through the mayor to council,

1:53:50the natural heritage actions plan,

1:53:52speaks to obviously our natural heritage system

1:53:55and our watershed planning needs.

1:53:57And the river system is a part of that.

1:54:01Our council approved park plan in February of 2022,

1:54:06does reference our OSS and our NHS as it relates

1:54:12to our parks and recreation master plan needs.

1:54:18Our park plan feeds into a document

1:54:21that supports our PRMP.

1:54:24So they have their own strategic documents,

1:54:27their own lens and our PRMP builds on those

1:54:31and supports those.

1:54:32Thank you.

1:54:33And the first part of that question

1:54:34was around the advisory committee, the community piece.

1:54:37It was a river system advisory committee.

1:54:40Where does that responsibility reside?

1:54:45So through the mayor to council,

1:54:47environmental planning oversees

1:54:49the previous responsibility of our river systems.

1:54:53Thank you.

1:54:54The next question is about Ms. Esch's delegation.

1:54:59She spoke about connectivity

1:55:02and I've raised connectivity as well.

1:55:05But what does that look like from an accessibility lens?

1:55:08And is that something that is part of the trails master plan

1:55:11or is that part of the parks?

1:55:12Can you help me understand that?

1:55:14So through the mayor to council,

1:55:16that's a theme or a pillar in our corporate strategic plan,

1:55:19which comes into effect I think January 1st

1:55:22with our new plan.

1:55:23Certainly our trails network plays a major role

1:55:26and an important role in that

1:55:28as does our ATN and our partners in transit.

1:55:31So it is a broader organizational theme

1:55:33and our Guelph-Challen master plan

1:55:35plays a very important role in that.

1:55:38Thank you.

1:55:38And with the mayor's permission,

1:55:39a very brief comment about the Guelph Sports Council's

1:55:44correspondence, I just want to acknowledge

1:55:47that data was raised in their correspondence.

1:55:49That was something that I thought was needed.

1:55:53And I also think it speaks to partnerships

1:55:55in the community that are really important.

1:55:58The other piece, and I hate to rant about this,

1:56:00but is food, especially in the regional parks,

1:56:03when we have tournaments and so on

1:56:05and this links into garbage and culture

1:56:08and place making and celebration is to speak again.

1:56:12It's nice to see the Guelph Sports Council raise that,

1:56:17that aligns into building the culture

1:56:20and a destination for some of the parks.

1:56:27Yeah, no problem.

1:56:28And no problem for anyone if they want to do a comment here

1:56:32because we're at the stage to vote anyways.

1:56:34So Councillor O'Rourke, please, and then Gibson.

1:56:37Thank you, Mayor Guthrie, through you to staff.

1:56:39It's a bit of a corollary to Councillor Bustel's last comment

1:56:43about having facilities where people could sell food, et cetera.

1:56:48But specifically have a question

1:56:49around the implementation timeline number nine.

1:56:53And that recommendation says explore partnership opportunities

1:56:57with the private sector for project funding and sponsorships.

1:57:01And so that is slated in the medium term from five to nine years.

1:57:05So I completely recognize that you can't do everything

1:57:10in the first period of time.

1:57:14But we have a major facility coming online

1:57:17because we broke ground on the south end rec center

1:57:19last Tuesday, fun updates since our community to the whole.

1:57:23So why wouldn't we be looking

1:57:25for sponsorship opportunities before the five

1:57:29to nine year period?

1:57:30So often at budget all raise, you know,

1:57:32is there a revenue stream here?

1:57:34Councillor Bustel's talked about it in terms

1:57:36of community economic development

1:57:37or the sports council's talked about it in terms of, you know,

1:57:40an extra amenity, but also the sponsorship piece.

1:57:43So I know somebody has to do that work.

1:57:46I used to do that work for the cooperators.

1:57:49Why wait five to nine years to start seeking sponsorship

1:57:54for facilities?

1:57:59Through the mayor to council, absolutely.

1:58:01Anybody who would like to support us,

1:58:03either sponsorship or naming rights or private partnerships,

1:58:06we are 100% on board to have those conversations.

1:58:09And certainly, South End Community Center is no exception.

1:58:14The work in the broader theme and the longer work

1:58:16is a resourcing piece as you mentioned

1:58:19to go out and actively solicit

1:58:21and make those connections ourselves.

1:58:23And when we look even broader than corporations

1:58:26or organizations that are in our community,

1:58:29we need some ability to even identify assets

1:58:32and validate and value them at the same time.

1:58:39So I'm going to go through just as a follow up.

1:58:41So because it's a revenue generating position,

1:58:46is there any appetite to look at accelerating that, right?

1:58:51Create a revenue stream.

1:58:52Like we have it for the River Run Center.

1:58:55People sponsor series.

1:58:59So I'm just curious because we've got two major facilities

1:59:04coming on board.

1:59:05The rec center is one.

1:59:07And so anyways, I'll just state my desire

1:59:10to see that accelerated.

1:59:12But I'm wondering, is there an opportunity to accelerate that?

1:59:17Through the mayor to council, absolutely.

1:59:20This is probably one of the good examples of the gas pedal

1:59:23where there could be some staffing resources

1:59:25or consultants or finance work that could move forward

1:59:28in order to help facilitate a proper sort of developed program

1:59:32across culture, recreation and the park systems.

1:59:35Great, okay.

1:59:36And then just a comment, Mayor Guthrie.

1:59:38I'm delighted to see the Parks and Rec Master Plan

1:59:41come tonight.

1:59:42There's been really good discussion

1:59:43about how it can even be better.

1:59:45But parks are one of these places

1:59:47where the wellbeing of our community really intersects, right?

1:59:50There's a health component as people are moving.

1:59:52There's an environmental component as they're in nature.

1:59:54There is belonging as people get to know their neighbors.

1:59:57And so well done on a really comprehensive piece of work.

2:00:02And really looking forward to seeing

2:00:03the implementation roll out.

2:00:08Thank you, Councillor Gibson, please.

2:00:10Thank you through Mr. Mayor.

2:00:12I'll start by saying kudos to staff.

2:00:15Exhaustive document, but excellent work to date.

2:00:19I really appreciate the insight

2:00:21around how we're going to accelerate

2:00:23our Parks and Rec Master Plan.

2:00:26Picking up on correspondence.

2:00:28I gave my thoughts on the Parks and Rec Master Plan

2:00:30and that committee the whole, so those comments still stand.

2:00:32But picking up on correspondence from the sports council.

2:00:36I really liked, as Councillor Boussatiel said,

2:00:39utilizing our local associations for data,

2:00:42enrollment data especially, what sports are growing,

2:00:45which sports are not.

2:00:46I think that that data is really important

2:00:50to implementation of the Parks and Rec Master Plan.

2:00:53And then also, again, I think picking up on what Councillor

2:00:56O'Rourke just mentioned around accelerating,

2:00:59it's nothing to be scared of.

2:01:01The idea of partnering with a private organization

2:01:03or a private enterprise to help accelerate

2:01:05some of the goals of the Parks and Rec Master Plan,

2:01:08I think has to be entertained.

2:01:10And obviously we can mix and match those relationships

2:01:14as we need to.

2:01:15But I just think that it's a good document,

2:01:17and it has lots of possibilities and lots of open-ended language,

2:01:21which creates the opportunity for innovative solutions.

2:01:24So thanks very much to staff and I look forward to supporting.

2:01:33All right, thank you.

2:01:34I don't see anything further.

2:01:35So I'll just call the vote then.

2:01:38Is anyone not in favor of approving the Master Plan?

2:01:43And that is unanimous then that we approve,

2:01:46not unanimous that we don't.

2:01:47So thank you very much.

2:01:49That's great and great work.

2:01:51I did owe on all the commentary there from myself to staff

2:01:55and to the community that gave a lot of input

2:01:58into what we were seeing in front of us today.

2:01:59So thank you very, very much.

2:02:00A long time coming.