City Council directs the Mayor to write a letter to the Prime Minister of Canada, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, MP Longfield…

2:02:02All right, we're moving right along to a new motion here

2:02:07that looks to be tabled from Councillor Klassen.

2:02:11It's about the guaranteed livable.

2:02:17Yeah, but there's delegations to this.

2:02:19So everybody got to let me chair tonight.

2:02:23This is my first rodeo.

2:02:27Okay, guaranteed livable income,

2:02:29Councillor Klassen is going to just speak to this.

2:02:35And I would like to turn the microphone over to you.

2:02:41And then I will just ask for a mover and a seconder,

2:02:45at least so we know it's to be talked about.

2:02:47And then I'm happy to,

2:02:50Councillor Goller, I think is going to second.

2:02:52So then we can have it a bit more formal

2:02:54for the delegations to come forward,

2:02:56speak to something that's actually being considered.

2:02:58So, Councillor Klassen, over to you.

2:03:02Thank you, Mayor Guthrie and thanks, Councillor Goller.

2:03:05So I'll read out the recommendation.

2:03:09So that city council directs the mayor to write a letter

2:03:12to the Prime Minister of Canada,

2:03:14the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance,

2:03:17MP Lloyd Longfield, the Premier of Ontario and MPP Shrinor

2:03:21calling on these orders of government

2:03:23to work collaboratively towards implementing

2:03:25a national guaranteed livable basic income

2:03:28to eradicate poverty and homelessness

2:03:30and ensure everyone in Canada has sufficient income

2:03:33to meet their basic needs.

2:03:35So, we have heard from our community partners

2:03:39that homelessness in Guelph has been increasing

2:03:41over the past few years.

2:03:43We've heard that we don't have sufficient housing

2:03:46that COVID-19 has put a strain on our healthcare system

2:03:50and that we know that we're facing a mental health crisis.

2:03:53Inflation has been increasing for several years,

2:03:56putting pressure on people who are already struggling

2:03:59and we know that this means that more people

2:04:01are at risk of falling into poverty.

2:04:04In 2020, according to stats,

2:04:06can poverty increase from 6.4% to 7.4%

2:04:10and we can anticipate that number will continue to rise

2:04:13given what we know is happening currently.

2:04:16Municipalities across Canada are bringing forward

2:04:19the concept of guaranteed livable income

2:04:21and this is not something that's new.

2:04:24I know many of you have chatted to me about it.

2:04:27It's currently being considered in the Senate.

2:04:29So, what does it mean?

2:04:31And I am not the expert here.

2:04:33There's some great people in the audience

2:04:35who can speak to it further,

2:04:36but if you're under a certain income,

2:04:38you're entitled to resources.

2:04:40This would bring more to people who are struggling

2:04:43with our current social assistance programs.

2:04:46When you provide money to people living in poverty,

2:04:49they spend it in their communities.

2:04:51They pay rent, they buy food, they clothe themselves

2:04:54and they provide for their children.

2:04:56Senator Kim Pate, who is tabling the bill at Senate,

2:05:00said the phrase, use the phrase,

2:05:02phase, sorry, the phrase,

2:05:04get housed, get fed and get out of poverty.

2:05:08Tonight, we've received correspondence

2:05:10from members of our community who have been advocating

2:05:12for guaranteed livable income for decades.

2:05:15What I am proposing is not new by any means,

2:05:17but my hope here tonight is to be another strong voice

2:05:21of advocacy for our provincial and federal governments.

2:05:25My hope is that our Senate will approve the bill

2:05:27to build a framework for guaranteed livable income.

2:05:31And that's all I have to say.

2:05:32All right.

2:05:33No problem.

2:05:34Thank you very much.

2:05:36Councillor Alton, I'm not going to you.

2:05:38I'm going to the delegations.

2:05:40Okay, yeah, thank you, my friend.

2:05:41I will definitely go back to you after the delegations.

2:05:44We have two, Theresa McKieman is here in person.

2:05:48Theresa, thank you for coming.

2:05:50And then over the phone will be Elizabeth Snow.

2:05:54Theresa, you've been watching

2:05:55since the beginning of this meeting.

2:05:58So you know that five minutes is the timeframe

2:06:00with the time at four minutes and 30 seconds.

2:06:03Stick around just in case there's a followup question.

2:06:05Your clock will start when you start.

2:06:07Go right ahead.

2:06:13It's on.

2:06:14Okay, thank you.

2:06:15Mayor Guthrie and Council,

2:06:17thanks for the opportunity to speak to this issue.

2:06:21I come to you from a 30 year career

2:06:24of working in social services with low income people.

2:06:28And this issue of our social safety net

2:06:32has been weighing on my mind for a long time.

2:06:35What we know, we heard a bit from Councillor Klassin

2:06:39that the current system is broken and we're in crisis.

2:06:44We see, we just have to look around our streets

2:06:46to see the homelessness, the addictions,

2:06:50the poor mental health,

2:06:51and they're all made worse by poverty.

2:06:54The current system is piecemeal.

2:06:56It's administratively very costly

2:06:59and it has a lot of gaps and duplications.

2:07:03So it's not really working for the people

2:07:05it's intended to serve

2:07:06and it's not working for us in government either.

2:07:10So we know our not-and-for-profits are in trouble.

2:07:13Our charities are in trouble.

2:07:15They cannot keep up with the need.

2:07:19The rates for social assistance are so low

2:07:23that they leave people in deep poverty.

2:07:25In fact, many of them get just 37% of the poverty line.

2:07:33And it's a bit of a myth that social assistance,

2:07:37Ontario Works recipients do not want to work.

2:07:41In fact, many of them suffer from untreated trauma,

2:07:46mental illness, poor physical and mental health and addictions

2:07:52and our systems don't give them a stable floor

2:07:56that will help them get out of this situation.

2:08:00There's evidence that living in deep poverty

2:08:03takes so much mental and emotional energy just to survive

2:08:09that they are unable to plan for the future,

2:08:12have good health or any peace of mind.

2:08:16The system is a poverty trap.

2:08:18So people trying to get out of it

2:08:20are often not even any better off if they're employed.

2:08:24We know that 20% of the jobs in Canada

2:08:27are considered low-wage jobs.

2:08:30And so people leaving assistance are sometimes worse off

2:08:34than when they were receiving assistance.

2:08:38We know that the changing nature of work,

2:08:41the technological changes and what we saw in the pandemic

2:08:47that there are a lot of gaps in our system.

2:08:51And we keep reviewing the system and tweaking the edges,

2:08:57but we never fix the fundamental problem.

2:09:02So one of the concerns that people have

2:09:05with guaranteed income or basic incomes,

2:09:08another term that's used is that people will stop working.

2:09:13But the pilots that have been done

2:09:15do not really show any real evidence of this.

2:09:19We've had two major experiments in Canada,

2:09:23the Mincombe in Manitoba in the 70s.

2:09:26And what they found was that there was only

2:09:30a slight reduction in work and that was for people

2:09:33going back to school and women who were staying home

2:09:36to do caregiving for children and other family members.

2:09:41In the recently canceled Ontario pilot,

2:09:45which only lasted for a little over a year,

2:09:4820% of the people receiving assistance

2:09:52did find employment and leave assistance.

2:09:56And there were some others who did drop out of employment

2:10:00to go to school so that they could seek better jobs.

2:10:05Can we afford it?

2:10:06That's always the question.

2:10:09As Councillor Klassen said,

2:10:11it is before the Senate right now

2:10:14and the parliamentary budget officer was tasked

2:10:18with putting a cost on having a basic income for Canadians.

2:10:25So he did estimate that the net cost

2:10:29would be $44 billion over five years.

2:10:32But that did not factor into account

2:10:36any of the savings in healthcare, criminal justice,

2:10:40special education, economic benefits of increased spending.

2:10:45And so the economists will suggest

2:10:51that when you factor in all of those savings,

2:10:55you'll return on investment of $1.6

2:10:59or every dollar spent.

2:11:00Why it matters to municipalities

2:11:02is because federal and provincial governments

2:11:05have the ability to raise revenue.

2:11:08And municipalities are paying the related costs

2:11:12out of our municipal property taxes.

2:11:16Thank you.

2:11:16Great, thank you.

2:11:17Don't run away just in case.

2:11:19You might be able to run away, but I won't let you yet.

2:11:21Follow up question at all or no?

2:11:23Okay, you can run away.

2:11:25All right, thank you very much.

2:11:26And then over the phone, we have Elizabeth Snell.

2:11:31So Elizabeth, it's Mayor Guthrie.

2:11:33Can you hear me?

2:11:36And just as a reminder, if you're on there,

2:11:39you gotta press star six to unmute your phone.

2:11:43It's Mayor Guthrie, can you hear me, Elizabeth?

2:11:49She's on the line, yes?

2:11:52Okay, again, just a reminder, hit star six

2:11:55and that will help you unmute.

2:12:10Elizabeth, it's Mayor Guthrie.

2:12:11Can you hear me okay?

2:12:18Let me just confer with the clerks.

2:12:19How are we, are we, she's on the line?

2:12:22Yeah, Mayor Guthrie and through you

2:12:23to the rest of council as well.

2:12:26Ms. Snell is on the line.

2:12:28We do see her in the meeting.

2:12:30It appears to be a muted, a muting issue.

2:12:33Yeah.

2:12:34Okay, Elizabeth.

2:12:35We can't unfortunately unmute her.

2:12:36Yeah, Elizabeth, can you press star, the star button

2:12:40and then six on your phone and then keep talking.

2:12:43Just so that, just so we can see if that works.

2:12:46Star six.

2:12:52Yes, don't move.

2:12:54Yes.

2:12:56Perfect.

2:12:57Elizabeth, it's Cam, can you hear me?

2:13:00Yes, I can.

2:13:01Okay, you're on, perfect.

2:13:04You have up to five minutes.

2:13:07Keep talking, go ahead.

2:13:09Right, well thank you Mayor Guthrie and councillors.

2:13:13I'm a member of Cairo's Guelph,

2:13:15an ecumenical social justice group

2:13:18representing various local church denominations

2:13:22and it's part of Cairo's Canada.

2:13:24Cairo's works on ecological justice

2:13:27and human rights issues, both in Canada and globally.

2:13:30A guaranteed livable income could help address Canada's

2:13:34persistent and deepening inequities.

2:13:38Citizens for Public Justice annual report on poverty trends

2:13:41shows that the dip in poverty during COVID supports

2:13:45has vanished.

2:13:46More and more Canadians are unable to meet

2:13:48their basic needs, a disgrace for such a rich country.

2:13:52Government supports, while helpful, are inadequate,

2:13:56complex, often dehumanizing,

2:13:59and sometimes inaccessible without an address.

2:14:03Turning to increasingly stressed charities

2:14:06erodes one's dignity.

2:14:08People are anxious and prone to health

2:14:10and family problems, generations are locked in,

2:14:14poverty pushes your focus onto daily survival,

2:14:18and planning is impossible.

2:14:20A guaranteed livable income is an important

2:14:23and essential step towards a justice society.

2:14:26We have guaranteed support for seniors and children,

2:14:28the gap is for ages 18 to 64.

2:14:33Benefits would accrue not only to the recipients,

2:14:35but to local communities and Canadian society.

2:14:39As three, six plane pilots show widespread positive effects.

2:14:45Many recipients reported improvements

2:14:47in their physical and mental health,

2:14:49labor market participation, food security,

2:14:53housing stability, financial status,

2:14:56and family and social relationships.

2:14:59Longer term planning and education became possible.

2:15:03Unpaid care work is supported.

2:15:06For many participants, guaranteed basic income

2:15:09was transformational, fundamentally reshaping

2:15:12their living standards, their sense of self-worth,

2:15:15and their hope.

2:15:16Healthier, better educated children

2:15:19can escape the poverty trap.

2:15:21Communities benefit, the funds are spent locally,

2:15:25some people start businesses,

2:15:27recipients contribute more to society,

2:15:30artists can flourish, costs of policing,

2:15:33emergency room use and healthcare all fall.

2:15:37With application provincially or nationally,

2:15:40there could be huge savings in healthcare

2:15:42and justice systems, both currently very stressed.

2:15:46Replacing complex piecemeal, often overlapping

2:15:50and bureaucratically complicated current services

2:15:54could offer savings in both output and bureaucracy.

2:15:59Net value must consider all these savings.

2:16:02Any remaining costs could be financed

2:16:04by fairer income taxes,

2:16:06easing municipal pressures significantly.

2:16:10The recommendation for federal provincial collaboration

2:16:13is important.

2:16:14With a guaranteed livable income,

2:16:16both levels can reduce complexity and improve equity.

2:16:21Collaboration is efficient and offers the opportunity

2:16:24to appreciate the indirect savings at all levels.

2:16:29Planning would also benefit from municipal level

2:16:32and indigenous representation.

2:16:34Program designers must appreciate

2:16:37the important benefits to municipalities

2:16:39and understand the unique barriers faced

2:16:42by indigenous people accessing relief programs.

2:16:46Endorsements for a basic income are numerous.

2:16:50Political party resolutions, politicians across the spectrum,

2:16:55numerous Ontario municipalities, United Church of Canada,

2:17:01the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered

2:17:03Indigenous Women and Girls,

2:17:05and national organizations of public health agencies,

2:17:09social workers, physicians, food banks,

2:17:13mental health workers and business leaders.

2:17:16A guaranteed livable income is a wise investment

2:17:20in a healthier, fairer society.

2:17:23I urge council to join so many municipalities and experts

2:17:28to support the recommendation.

2:17:33Great, thank you very much.

2:17:35See if there's a follow up, which there is not.

2:17:38And again, glad we were able to hear you.

2:17:40Thanks for joining us.

2:17:41Yeah, sorry for that delay.

2:17:43It's okay, we'll let it go this time.

2:17:45But it's all good, don't worry about it.

2:17:48Thank you.

2:17:49Okay, back to council.

2:17:53It's already been moved and seconded.

2:17:56Is there anything further, sorry,

2:17:57I did say I'd go to you, Councillor Oltz.

2:18:00Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

2:18:01And thank you very much to Councillor Kloss.

2:18:04And as I do believe that this is very good

2:18:07political advocacy that benefits Guelph,

2:18:10the way that I put it is the cost to us to zero,

2:18:12but the return on the investment is priceless.

2:18:16Recognizing that for about 40 years,

2:18:18we've been in a slowly developing affordability crisis

2:18:22that began with clothing drops, moved to food banks,

2:18:25and now we see the inability to pay rents and mortgages

2:18:28as being symptoms of this.

2:18:30I don't think that we have any choice

2:18:32but to become advocates for this.

2:18:35There are structural issues that have led to systemic

2:18:37impoverishment of many in both Guelph and throughout Canada.

2:18:42And this makes our job much harder

2:18:44as a social safety net lies in tatters.

2:18:47We're asked to fund housing at far deeper levels

2:18:50that was virtually non-existent 20 years ago,

2:18:53whether it's supportive housing

2:18:55or it's housing for reintegration of people who are homeless.

2:19:00It didn't exist for the most part 20 years ago.

2:19:03Perhaps it should have,

2:19:04but certainly what the real problem is,

2:19:06this belies that a country that has so much

2:19:09has so many that are actually suffering.

2:19:11I appreciate what you've done.

2:19:13And I think that the basic income will benefit us,

2:19:16not just in terms of our principles and our values,

2:19:19but also in terms of the city of Guelph's bottom line,

2:19:22as we don't have to necessarily grapple

2:19:24with many of the challenges we are currently faced.

2:19:28Okay, thank you, Councillor Richardson.

2:19:31Thank you for you, Mayor.

2:19:34This is probably gonna come from my own ignorance

2:19:37on the subject.

2:19:38And I'm hesitant to give the province carte blanche

2:19:42to implement a guaranteed income program,

2:19:47when I don't even know what a guaranteed income would be.

2:19:51I'm not sure how they would implement that,

2:19:53what that would mean, what that would mean to municipalities,

2:19:55what that would mean to the residents.

2:19:58So I would maybe like to make an amendment saying that

2:20:02rather than implement,

2:20:03encourage these orders of governments to explore

2:20:06a national guaranteed livable basic income

2:20:09to eradicate homeless and poverty.

2:20:11I certainly believe in the concept,

2:20:13I just don't understand enough of it to give them carte blanche

2:20:16without seeing what the program looks like

2:20:19to support it wholeheartedly that way.

2:20:22Does that make sense?

2:20:24Yeah, sure, yeah.

2:20:26Let me just, if you could send that to the clerks,

2:20:28I don't know if you have,

2:20:30but let me see if you do,

2:20:32let me see if there's a seconder for,

2:20:34okay, I see Councillor Gibson's hand there.

2:20:37So you're changing the wording

2:20:41instead of implement to say explore,

2:20:44or I'm sorry, I didn't catch the whole thing.

2:20:46Encouragement to explore?

2:20:49Just put your mic on there.

2:20:56Encouraging these orders of government to explore.

2:21:00Okay, so just speaking to the amendment then,

2:21:05of just changing the words to implement,

2:21:07to encourage to explore Gibson.

2:21:12Yeah, thank you through Mr. Mayor.

2:21:13Thanks, Councillor Richardson.

2:21:14I didn't know that amendment was coming,

2:21:16but I appreciate it.

2:21:19The idea, this is a good debate,

2:21:21and I've had this before,

2:21:22former Councillor McKinnon and I used to go back and forth

2:21:24over this all the time,

2:21:25which was a really fruitful discussions.

2:21:29If the argument is to reduce other sort of OW disability,

2:21:35welfare systems, then I like the idea,

2:21:39however, that is just one argument

2:21:42that I've heard through this process,

2:21:44which is one way, one reason why I would support exploring.

2:21:47That being said though, is it quite oftentimes,

2:21:49what is attached to that is the optional work sort of clause.

2:21:57So people immediately jump to, well, make work optional.

2:21:59And if you're not going to work in our society,

2:22:03it has to be for a noble reason.

2:22:05That's how I feel, like a disability,

2:22:07if you're caring for a child, if you're going to school,

2:22:10those are all noble reasons.

2:22:11That being said, to make work optional,

2:22:13it creates a working class and it creates a non-working class.

2:22:16And those are implementation concerns

2:22:19that I've always had.

2:22:21The most practical argument that I've posed to people

2:22:25that have never been answered to me is,

2:22:26when you guarantee someone 15, 20, $25,000,

2:22:30what does it take to get them back into the workforce

2:22:33before you remove that basic income?

2:22:36So does it take $50,000 then to get them back

2:22:39into the workforce to say, okay,

2:22:42if you already guarantee them 25,000,

2:22:44they're not going to take a $30,000 job,

2:22:46knowing that they're going to work for $5,000 per year.

2:22:49You need to pay them to incentivize them

2:22:51back into the workforce.

2:22:52And when you think about the lower end jobs

2:22:55that people do in the service industry,

2:22:57like for example, fast food McDonald's,

2:23:00when you're asking to pay a teller

2:23:02at the McDonald's, $50,000 to $60,000

2:23:04to re-answer the workforce, it just drives inflation.

2:23:07And these are questions that have never really been answered

2:23:10to me.

2:23:11So my biggest concern around the basic,

2:23:13universal basic income is the optionality to work.

2:23:17And then also the implementation of it effectively

2:23:20to reduce and remove these other administrative cost sinks

2:23:24that we have when it comes to welfare,

2:23:26or W and other sort of government programs

2:23:29that we all acknowledge sometimes can be

2:23:32discombobulating and unaligned.

2:23:35So on yes, on one hand, I would like to support it

2:23:39in terms of reducing bureaucracy.

2:23:41On the other hand, it never comes forward

2:23:44without the optionality of work apiece.

2:23:47And I really struggle with that without a noble cause.

2:23:50I think that without the noble cause,

2:23:53I think we've experimented.

2:23:54I think we can all understand what happened

2:23:56when the federal government managed to do the serve

2:23:59through COVID, backstopping people's incomes,

2:24:02giving them essentially a basic livable income

2:24:04while they weren't allowed to work in the service industry.

2:24:07And it took years and years and years

2:24:08to get those people back into the workforce

2:24:10to the point where we're still struggling

2:24:12at our service level industries, our lower wage industries,

2:24:15to get people back into the workforce

2:24:16because they had to serve backstopping.

2:24:20It was, work became optional for a period of time

2:24:24after COVID while the economy was building up again,

2:24:27but people were still getting those serve checks.

2:24:30So we were seeing that it drew a lag in the work employment.

2:24:36And quite frankly, we're still dealing with inflation

2:24:39related to the cost of the serve.

2:24:41So those are questions that I have.

2:24:44I'm not saying no today, but I am saying exploring

2:24:46is a good thing, but simply voting to implement

2:24:49without any say in the actual implementation.

2:24:51I really struggle with that as a counselor.

2:24:53So I'll be voting for the amendment.

2:24:55I won't be voting for the straight car blanche implement.

2:24:59Thank you.

2:25:00Okay, thank you.

2:25:01And then speaking just to the amendment, please call her.

2:25:05Did you want to speak to that?

2:25:06Okay, yeah.

2:25:08Your worship, I just encourage my council colleagues

2:25:11to have the courage to support this motion.

2:25:13If they fundamental believe that people are lazy

2:25:18and not want to work, well, that's your belief.

2:25:21But I believe that people want to contribute

2:25:23to the community and that as our delegates have mentioned,

2:25:28we have, there's lots of evidence

2:25:30that universal basic income would do a lot of good

2:25:34for society.

2:25:35So we just ask you to just vote for it rather than trying

2:25:38to weaken or water down the motion,

2:25:40either supported or not supported.

2:25:42Thank you.

2:25:43Okay, thank you.

2:25:44And then finally-

2:25:45I have a personal privilege, Mr. Mayor.

2:25:46I just want to, I just want to personally address

2:25:48Mr. Mayor.

2:25:50Okay, go ahead.

2:25:51Just like the council to clarify,

2:25:53was he insinuating that I was calling people lazy?

2:26:05Through your worship to Councillor Gibson.

2:26:07No, I was just asking my council colleagues

2:26:10to either support the motion or not support it

2:26:12rather than try to water it down.

2:26:15We are not going to be the body that implements it.

2:26:17It would be another level.

2:26:18We're talking about the federal government

2:26:20and they would go through their processes.

2:26:22We're just asking them to do it.

2:26:24Thank you for clarifying.

2:26:26Okay, and then to the original mover,

2:26:28did you want to speak to the amendment?

2:26:31Or go ahead if you want to.

2:26:33Yes, thank you Mayor Guthrie and to my council colleagues.

2:26:38So as part of my research,

2:26:41I reviewed the Ontario government

2:26:43and guaranteed livable income pilot.

2:26:46It was started in 2017 by the Ontario government

2:26:48under Premier Nguyen and it was canceled after 18 months

2:26:50by the Ford government.

2:26:52It was canceled during the data collection phase,

2:26:54which is pretty unfortunate,

2:26:55but it actually led to data being collected

2:26:58from independently of the government.

2:27:01And that study, which there's a great study

2:27:03and I think it's one of the things that I sent you

2:27:05in that reference package,

2:27:07which I can share publicly as well,

2:27:09is that they found that people were actually able

2:27:11to improve their lives quite substantially.

2:27:13Recipients continued to work

2:27:15and others were able to get better jobs

2:27:18and improve their life chances.

2:27:20And that came from, those words came directly

2:27:22from the research study.

2:27:24So, with all due respect,

2:27:28the Ontario government has explored

2:27:33what guaranteed livable income could be.

2:27:36I think that we do need to be bolder

2:27:38and I think we need to ask for something better.

2:27:42We know that people are struggling

2:27:43and I think that it's okay to ask

2:27:46for what I think people need.

2:27:49And so I'll leave it at that for...

2:27:52And finally, Boussa Tiflis.

2:27:54Yes, thank you.

2:27:55And I will be speaking to the motion.

2:27:56I will not be supporting the amendment.

2:27:59For me, implementation includes the evaluation discussion

2:28:03and I agree that it's not at our level.

2:28:06This will be other levels of government,

2:28:08just like Councillor Goller said.

2:28:11And I think post pandemic,

2:28:13we talked a lot about building back better

2:28:16and even as a municipality,

2:28:17I'm hearing our CAO talking about a better deal,

2:28:20a new deal and so on.

2:28:21So the world has changed

2:28:23and all we're asking is that the other levels of government

2:28:27and they're gonna have these conversations

2:28:29about impacts on other benefits

2:28:31and the economy and so on.

2:28:32So it's just trying to push that forward.

2:28:35So I will be supporting the original motion.

2:28:38Okay, and then we've got O'Rourke and then Downer.

2:28:44Yes, thank you, Margot, three.

2:28:45So I'm struggling with this one.

2:28:47I'm looking at a page from CPA Canada.

2:28:50And so their chief economist says

2:28:53the problem with basic income

2:28:54is not that there aren't proven benefits,

2:28:57there's clearly proven benefits.

2:28:59It's a series of sticky implementation issues

2:29:01that policymakers struggle with in designing a program.

2:29:04And I think that's why we've seen pilots

2:29:08because a pilot can be different than a broad rollout.

2:29:11So I totally support basic income,

2:29:13but I worry about saying just implement something.

2:29:16So this author at CPA Canada, their senior economist,

2:29:20he says, I've no doubt in my mind

2:29:22Canada will have a universal basic income in the future

2:29:25with growing inequality, the increased threat of automation

2:29:27and the rise of the gig economy.

2:29:29We have more need now than ever for a policy

2:29:32that helps put an income floor

2:29:33underneath our nation's most vulnerable,

2:29:35which is exactly the goal of this motion.

2:29:38He says, but that conversation needs space

2:29:40and consideration for the policy to work.

2:29:43So the motion as presented says we want the province

2:29:48and the federal government to implement something,

2:29:50but we don't know how that works together.

2:29:52If it does, who's jurisdiction it is.

2:29:54And I totally agree, we can let them figure that out.

2:29:59In my mind, Councillor Richardson's motion just says

2:30:01we are urging them to figure that out.

2:30:05Not don't implement it, but to urge them to explore it

2:30:11for to really support, not just the nation's most vulnerable,

2:30:15but exactly Ms. Snell who phoned to say,

2:30:18there are people who they use the basic income

2:30:21to go back to work and retrain and be more productive.

2:30:24So there are lots and lots of ways

2:30:26where basic income will be beneficial.

2:30:29I'm not sure the motion is prescriptive enough

2:30:32in terms of are we talking about just raise your,

2:30:36income tax exemption, just cut a check,

2:30:38just eliminate programs.

2:30:40So I'm struggling really,

2:30:42because I think the exploration part,

2:30:44the urging them to explore it does just that,

2:30:47to say what's really gonna be the best system

2:30:52to help the folks that we wanna help.

2:30:55Thank you, and then the downer please.

2:30:57Thank you.

2:30:59And I'm not gonna support the amendment,

2:31:00I'm gonna support the original motion

2:31:02because I believe what the original motion says is

2:31:07to work collaboratively towards.

2:31:11So that implies a lot of exploration

2:31:15when you're working collaboratively towards something.

2:31:18There's gonna be exploration of policies.

2:31:20It's out of, anyway, I do think that the stronger wording

2:31:26is there, it's something that says that,

2:31:28we basically support this in principle,

2:31:31and we'd like you to figure out how to,

2:31:33a working collaborative, how this could be done.

2:31:36There are plenty of pilots as a number of you said,

2:31:40we all know what works,

2:31:42but let them work that out collaboratively.

2:31:46Exploring is kind of where they all have been anyway on this.

2:31:52So let's get together and figure out how it can be done

2:31:56so that it's effective.

2:31:58Okay, thank you.

2:32:00All right, I'll call the vote on the amendment.

2:32:05Is anyone not in favor?

2:32:07Who is not in favor of the amendment?

2:32:10Okay, so I got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

2:32:16Okay, so that's Kateen,

2:32:21Karan, thank you, Councillor Allt.

2:32:26Didn't have my glasses on, I'm like, who's up there?

2:32:30Guller, Ault, Klassen,

2:32:35Busatil, Downer, okay?

2:32:38So, oh, and now you, really?

2:32:43No, he didn't have my glasses on or did you change your mind?

2:32:47You were up and down, eh?

2:32:50You remind me of some old counselors that used to be here,

2:32:52pressing the wrong buttons.

2:32:55All right, that's eight.

2:32:56Okay, yeah, yeah.

2:32:58All right, so that the amendment fails,

2:33:00we're back to the main motion, okay?

2:33:03All right, is there anything more on this

2:33:05or can I just call the vote on this issue?

2:33:07It looks like I can just call the vote.

2:33:09Okay, perfect.

2:33:10Is there anyone against the main motion?

2:33:13Please put up your hand.

2:33:16Okay, Richardson, Guthrie, and Gibson.

2:33:19All right, so that passes.

2:33:20Congratulations, Councillor Klassen.

2:33:22Good job.

2:33:23Okay, and now I am going back to Councillor Busuttil