In order to facilitate a transparent evaluation of a potential opportunity to advance a Community Hub and Affordable Housing on 14.8 acres of land outside of…

1:05:31for advancement of affordable housing in the charitable hub.

1:05:35So it says that Mayor Guthrie will speak to this item.

1:05:38That is me.

1:05:39So there is a recommendation that

1:05:46is on the agenda for us to consider.

1:05:49And in speaking with my councillor colleagues,

1:05:51and I'll just give kudos upfront to councillor Downer,

1:05:57I would suggest that these will not be tabled today.

1:06:01The two that are there.

1:06:02And that something else will be tabled.

1:06:04I'll go to councillor Downer to do that later.

1:06:08And really what's happened here is that there is a what I am.

1:06:15What I believe is a pretty visionary plan for something

1:06:18that is very unique for a potential opportunity

1:06:23to have a charitable hub, a affordable housing,

1:06:31attainable housing, a park, and so on.

1:06:34But this vision can't be done in its entirety.

1:06:41And to me, it's sort of a package.

1:06:46There's no developer that's come forward at all

1:06:48within the city boundaries around that issue.

1:06:51But there is on the other side of the fence,

1:06:54literally on the other side of the fence, in the West End of Guelph.

1:06:58And so Guelph-Aremassa is where this land is situated.

1:07:04And we have this opportunity that I think

1:07:07is just worthy of discussion.

1:07:09It's worthy of discussion in my perspective.

1:07:12And with that, I think the intent here

1:07:17is still to have engagement with Guelph-Aremassa Township

1:07:21Council to see if there's any willingness.

1:07:25But there's also requirements from a process point of view,

1:07:29transparency point of view in regards

1:07:31to what the proponent and proposal would be.

1:07:37And so I'll stop there because it is very high level,

1:07:43because it just truly is high level.

1:07:46I'll stop there.

1:07:47And I know that we have a couple delegations that

1:07:50are here today, or maybe just one.

1:07:53Is Melissa in person, or is she joining us online?

1:07:58Oh, sorry.

1:07:58OK, come on down.

1:08:03And once you're done, Melissa, I will, well, first of all,

1:08:09there might be questions.

1:08:10So I'll let my colleagues ask questions or myself.

1:08:13And then after that, I'll go to Councillor Downer.

1:08:18So go ahead.

1:08:20Thank you so much.

1:08:21Good afternoon, Mayor and members of Council.

1:08:23I'm very grateful to be here today

1:08:25speaking about this opportunity.

1:08:28I know I did send a brief out earlier this or last week,

1:08:32I guess.

1:08:33But just I'm grateful for the opportunity

1:08:35to speak to it a bit more in detail.

1:08:37My name is Melissa Kwiatkowski.

1:08:39I'm the CEO at Guelph Community Health Center.

1:08:42I'm also here in partnership with Karen Kirkwood

1:08:45of the Children's Foundation of Guelph and Wellington.

1:08:48She's not able to be here today.

1:08:50And with the support of many organizations

1:08:52who are working every day to support the health and well

1:08:55being of our community.

1:08:58I want to begin with what I think

1:08:59is the most important place to start.

1:09:03The reality of what our community is facing right now.

1:09:06Today in Guelph, over 300 people are on the by-name list,

1:09:11which is people experiencing chronic homelessness.

1:09:14Approximately 3,500 people, households,

1:09:19are waiting for affordable or subsidized housing.

1:09:2225% of households, that's one in four households,

1:09:27are food insecure.

1:09:28And community programs across the city

1:09:30are operating at or beyond capacity.

1:09:35These are not abstract numbers.

1:09:36These are our neighbors, our clients, families, and children.

1:09:40And what we are seeing across housing, health,

1:09:42and social services is that these challenges

1:09:45are deeply interconnected.

1:09:47They cannot be solved in isolation.

1:09:50At the same time, we are facing a very real transition.

1:09:53The relocation of the seat and the Children's Foundation's

1:09:57programs create urgency, but it also

1:10:00creates something else, an opportunity.

1:10:03An opportunity to think differently

1:10:05about how we respond to these challenges, not one program

1:10:09at a time, but in a more coordinated and integrated way.

1:10:13In response, our organizations have

1:10:15been actively exploring multiple options for what comes next.

1:10:19And across those conversations, a shared vision has emerged.

1:10:24A purpose-built space for community services, food, health,

1:10:28and social supports working together,

1:10:31infrastructure that can operate at scale,

1:10:33that meets the needs of not just a neighborhood,

1:10:35but across Guelph and Wellington County.

1:10:38This is what integrated community infrastructure looks like.

1:10:42The opportunity in front of you today,

1:10:44this particular site, is one option that

1:10:47has surfaced through our collective work.

1:10:50And it does present some unique possibilities.

1:10:53The ability to deliver affordable and attainable housing

1:10:56at meaningful scale, the potential

1:10:59for in-kind contributions that significantly improve

1:11:03affordability, and the space required

1:11:05to support not just programs, but a regional system

1:11:09of delivery and support.

1:11:12I want to be very clear.

1:11:13We're not here today because this is the only option.

1:11:16We have explored, and we'll continue

1:11:18to explore multiple pathways.

1:11:21But we are here because this is an option

1:11:23that, at minimum, presents enough opportunity for community

1:11:27impact that it should be understood more fully.

1:11:31We know there are questions about infrastructure,

1:11:34about jurisdiction, about process.

1:11:37Those are valid, and they matter.

1:11:40But they are not reasons to stop a conversation

1:11:42before it begins.

1:11:44They are exactly the work that exploration is meant to do.

1:11:48So today, the question in front of you

1:11:50is not, do all the answers exist?

1:11:52Is every detail resolved?

1:11:54The question is, is this an idea with enough potential

1:11:57to help address real community need?

1:12:00And is it worth exploring further?

1:12:03Because the reality is, the scale of what we are facing

1:12:05as a community is only growing, and it is asking something

1:12:09more of all of us.

1:12:11It requires us to be open to new approaches,

1:12:14work across boundaries, and find enough common ground

1:12:17to move forward on ideas that could make a meaningful

1:12:20difference in people's lives.

1:12:23This is one of those moments, a moment where leadership

1:12:26doesn't require certainty, but it does require openness.

1:12:29Openness to possibility, openness to learning more,

1:12:34and openness to not turning away too early

1:12:36from something that could matter.

1:12:39We believe this idea has merit, not because it's perfect,

1:12:42and definitely not because it's simple,

1:12:45but because it is proportionate to the scale of need

1:12:48that we're seeing in our community right now.

1:12:51And today, what we are asking is that you allow

1:12:54the opportunity to be explored, that you create space

1:12:57to better understand what is possible,

1:13:00and that we collectively don't miss the chance

1:13:02to consider something that could make a meaningful

1:13:04difference for our community.

1:13:06Thank you for your leadership, your time,

1:13:08and your commitment to the city.

1:13:10Thank you.

1:13:12Thank you very much.

1:13:13Appreciate it.

1:13:14And Councillor Busuttil has a question for you.

1:13:21Thank you very much for the presentation, Malisha.

1:13:24And you and I have talked about this, I think,

1:13:26back to the taste of Guelph September 21st, 2025,

1:13:29when you approached myself and two other councillors

1:13:32with the exact same request of a charitable hub

1:13:37outside of the city of Guelph and Guelph-Aremosa Township.

1:13:40And my position is still the same,

1:13:42but I have a couple of questions about your presentation.

1:13:45Have you already presented this to Guelph-Aremosa Township?

1:13:49No.

1:13:50Okay.

1:13:51How long have you known about your tenancy?

1:13:54My understanding is about 10 years.

1:13:56You were new that you would be in the Huron Street Facility

1:13:59for 10 years.

1:14:00Can you comment on that?

1:14:02Yes, we've been in our current Huron Street location

1:14:05as has the Children's Foundation.

1:14:07I know we've been there for about six years now.

1:14:10And for many years, we've been on a year by year basis,

1:14:15just because of, as you know, all of the questions

1:14:17and planning and timing of the downtown development.

1:14:21Okay, so you've had some time to work on this.

1:14:24And you've referenced exploring multiple options,

1:14:27but I haven't heard, it's been almost a year

1:14:30and it's the same option.

1:14:31We want a big, huge, purpose-built facility

1:14:34in the brief that you sent on Friday,

1:14:37which would have been more helpful if it was in public.

1:14:40We want a purpose-built building

1:14:42out in Guelph-Aremosa Township.

1:14:45Are there any, you reference it?

1:14:46What are the other options?

1:14:48We have explored a number of options.

1:14:50One, we've had a commercial realtor

1:14:52look at market-based options,

1:14:55and obviously affordability is a real issue on that side.

1:15:00We have reached out to staff at both the city

1:15:02and the county to explore any and all options

1:15:05that might be available.

1:15:07And there haven't been any options available to us.

1:15:09So while we've looked at the market,

1:15:12we've looked at the possibility for city and county lands,

1:15:17we haven't been able to uncover anything yet.

1:15:20So I think the unique part about this is the scope and scale.

1:15:25I think many people don't understand the full scope

1:15:30of the work that both the SEED and the Children's Foundation

1:15:32do across Guelph and Wellington.

1:15:34We're not necessarily just a storefront location

1:15:37where people kind of walk in.

1:15:39We're a regional logistics and distribution system

1:15:42that supports a network across Guelph and Wellington.

1:15:45And so we need a significant amount of space.

1:15:48We need industrial logistics space as well,

1:15:51and we need affordability is really important to us.

1:15:54And with those kind of key principles,

1:15:56we haven't been able to find anything within the city

1:15:59that currently meets our needs.

1:16:01Thank you.

1:16:01And that was my question about working with the city of Guelph.

1:16:03In Ward 4, I looked at PV Mart,

1:16:06which is 30,000 square feet.

1:16:08That's an ideal location in the north end of the city.

1:16:11But that affordability, what you're saying to me is that

1:16:14the proposal that's here is also,

1:16:18there's going to be some subsidy from the developer

1:16:21or so on that the developer is going to offer

1:16:23land in kind or building or whatever,

1:16:26all these good kinds of things.

1:16:28And has your group talked about the infrastructure requests

1:16:32that would have to twin the,

1:16:34we're asking the city to support a development

1:16:38outside in Guelph Air Mosa Township,

1:16:40whether it's police, lighting, roads, sidewalks,

1:16:43bikes, sewage, water, bylaw,

1:16:46all those kinds of things that we don't collect taxes

1:16:49from Guelph Air Mosa Township.

1:16:51It would be city of Guelph taxpayers

1:16:53that now have to provide for all this on our tax bill.

1:16:59Have you talked about the logistics

1:17:00with the staff and your consultants and so on?

1:17:03And then I just have one more.

1:17:05I think these are all really excellent questions

1:17:08and I believe what is part of the work of exploration.

1:17:11So we're here today to share what the need is

1:17:14in our community, to share a little bit of an overview,

1:17:17high level of what the opportunity is before us

1:17:20to really take all of these needs,

1:17:22affordable housing, food, social infrastructure.

1:17:27We have this really interesting opportunity.

1:17:30My background is not in planning.

1:17:31So I think that's why we're here is to kind of look at,

1:17:34what would the next steps be?

1:17:36We definitely value and believe in going through

1:17:40the due diligence and all the processes that are required.

1:17:42And we would be really happy to partner

1:17:46with all involved to work through that process.

1:17:49Thank you.

1:17:50My last question, I've raised this even at the community

1:17:52benefit or community grant presentation we had recently

1:17:55once before is I'm really reticent to,

1:17:59you've referenced that, you know what the need is,

1:18:03where a city of Toronto, United Way,

1:18:05and they did a research study on the sector

1:18:10of not-for-profits and charitols

1:18:12that provide economic benefit jobs and so on.

1:18:14So I'm feeling very uncomfortable about,

1:18:19not the seed and children's foundation,

1:18:21which I'm involved with both of those,

1:18:23but just around the scope of this

1:18:25and the wide net that's being thrown out there

1:18:29when there's no research basis for this,

1:18:31whereas I can go to a city of Toronto report

1:18:34that talks about the land needs

1:18:35and the employment lands really is what this is.

1:18:38Have you done that work?

1:18:40We have done what I would say is a first draft

1:18:44of a needs assessment in partnership with Tord Common Ground.

1:18:48And that's where some of the numbers

1:18:49from the briefing that we sent out last week came from.

1:18:52We pulled the data from the public health

1:18:54neighbourhood-based reports and there is a lot of need

1:18:58in the surrounding communities around that area.

1:19:01If this idea were to go further into a process

1:19:05which I would imagine would include all the technical work

1:19:07that needs to happen, engagement,

1:19:09we'd be happy to further engage with public health

1:19:12and with Tord Common Ground

1:19:13to do a more comprehensive needs assessment.

1:19:15As you know, the United Way has one of their

1:19:18housing affordability groups and they have a food group

1:19:21and there's lots of local coalitions and committees

1:19:25that we can tap into to support this work.

1:19:31All right, thank you.

1:19:32Councillor Allt, please.

1:19:34Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie,

1:19:36through you to the delegate.

1:19:37And thank you, Ms. Kiatowski for coming.

1:19:41As you're aware, I am supportive of seed

1:19:44having both delivered for them

1:19:45and filled up the seed bags occasionally.

1:19:48But I am really struggling with this one

1:19:50and I'm gonna go to the fiscal conservative group,

1:19:55first of all.

1:19:57What do I say to the taxpayers of Guelph

1:19:59about developing infrastructure in another jurisdiction

1:20:03where that improves property in another jurisdiction

1:20:06at the cost of the Guelph taxpayer?

1:20:09I think we can do it in Guelph

1:20:10and I'm prepared to look at that option.

1:20:12I'm not certain I'm prepared to look at this one.

1:20:17Yeah, I think this is why we're asking

1:20:20to kind of go into an exploration process.

1:20:22I think both council and the community deserve

1:20:26to better understand the value

1:20:28of what this could bring to the community

1:20:30to determine is it worth going to the next step.

1:20:34And I get that, but I guess following up

1:20:36on much of what Councillor Boussetteel said,

1:20:39it strikes me that there is capacity in Guelph.

1:20:41And if I remember correctly,

1:20:43I think Councillor Boussetteel,

1:20:44you mentioned just casually to me

1:20:46that there are a number of different sites in Guelph

1:20:48that have been identified by economic development.

1:20:52So those would be amenable as well to you.

1:20:55We are willing to continue to explore any and all options.

1:20:59I think they have to meet those few criteria

1:21:02that I mentioned and affordability

1:21:04is one of the core needs that we have going forward

1:21:08to ensure operational sustainability

1:21:10of both the seed programming

1:21:12and the children's foundation programming.

1:21:18You done that, Councillor?

1:21:21I just wanna follow up on the affordability

1:21:24because that's really important, obviously.

1:21:28What do we mean by affordability?

1:21:30Free, subsidized, affordability can mean many, many things.

1:21:36Yeah, yeah, we've been very lucky for the past six years.

1:21:39We pay a very, very low rent at our current location.

1:21:44And it has allowed us to put all of the resources

1:21:47that we get from grants, our social enterprise,

1:21:51and fundraising directly into programming.

1:21:54So the more money we have to put into rent going forward

1:21:58means that our programs can't really keep pace

1:22:00with the scale of the need.

1:22:02And so this particular opportunity that is before us

1:22:06includes a partnership with the Children's Foundation,

1:22:10with some other partners and wood development group

1:22:13that would ensure the affordability element for us

1:22:16is maintained.

1:22:17And just a last point on the affordability.

1:22:23Are you expecting the same economic support

1:22:27from the developer?

1:22:29In other words, is your rent gonna be the same

1:22:31or are you expecting it to go up?

1:22:33What are we looking at?

1:22:34Yes, we have had those questions

1:22:36and we have been having conversations

1:22:39with other community partners as well.

1:22:42And that is the goal, for sure.

1:22:45It's the goal, but we're not certain yet.

1:22:47Yes, well we don't have a set rent amount

1:22:50because we're not in the building yet,

1:22:51but that we are kind of maintaining

1:22:54as to where we are.

1:22:55Just one last question, Mary Guthrie.

1:22:58When I was driving for the seed

1:22:59and for other food organizations,

1:23:02one of the concerns that often came up for me was,

1:23:06why am I driving?

1:23:07And the answer was very simple.

1:23:09There was no accessible, easily accessible

1:23:12bus transportation for people using

1:23:15the North End Harvest Market or the seed or whatever.

1:23:18And it's a big question here.

1:23:19I don't expect you necessarily know the answer,

1:23:23but what about if we come back and say,

1:23:26we can't put public transit into that area?

1:23:29What happens to this hub if we can't do that?

1:23:33I think that would be an important element and principle

1:23:36that would be part of the exploration process.

1:23:38We definitely, I mean, there would be 400 units

1:23:41of affordable and attainable housing there.

1:23:43We would definitely want public transit

1:23:46and also for the staff and volunteers

1:23:48that work at the seed and the children's foundation.

1:23:51That would be really important.

1:23:53Our model has changed a bit, I think, since you volunteered.

1:23:57We're no longer doing kind of deliveries to homes

1:24:00where we are more of a regional distribution network,

1:24:03bringing the things that people need to where they are.

1:24:06So schools, markets, other food emergency food providers,

1:24:11and we have trucks to do that as well and drivers.

1:24:14You just raised one last question for me.

1:24:17You said 400 units, is that correct?

1:24:19Yes.

1:24:20That's fairly concrete.

1:24:21Where did that number come from?

1:24:23That was the original concept that was put forward.

1:24:29So affordable and attainable units,

1:24:31a park and a charitable community-based hub.

1:24:36Thank you very much.

1:24:37Thank you.

1:24:39Great, thank you.

1:24:40Kate, please, I think that's it for my list.

1:24:44Thank you.

1:24:46Through you, Mr. Mayor.

1:24:48So we've had a conversation already

1:24:51and I've mentioned that I think that this is a great project.

1:24:55I think it is fantastic.

1:24:56I think it is fantastic.

1:24:57And I would love to support it if it was in Guelph

1:25:01because we've had a lot of other developments come through

1:25:05and we're concerned about water usage

1:25:09as well as the cost to create these utilities

1:25:13for an area that we don't get any property tax value for.

1:25:16And I know that you and I have had discussions

1:25:18about potentially talking to other developers

1:25:22who are currently building spaces.

1:25:23So I'm really hopeful and optimistic

1:25:25that some of that will pan out.

1:25:29And I was wondering about whether or not,

1:25:35like what was your process for kind of reaching out

1:25:38to other developers to look for other partners

1:25:41within the city limits?

1:25:44Thank you for the question through the mayor.

1:25:47We have, as I mentioned, did a bit of a market scan

1:25:52of what's out there.

1:25:54We haven't reached out to any specific developers yet

1:25:58other than the few that we have connections with.

1:26:01So there are a lot of developers

1:26:02that we don't have a relationship with.

1:26:04And as I've shared with many of you,

1:26:06we're open to exploring all possibilities.

1:26:09There are these kind of three principles or requirements

1:26:13that we need in order to make a development

1:26:17like this feasible.

1:26:18And so we would be looking through

1:26:21any potential opportunities through that lens.

1:26:23And I really appreciate the connections

1:26:25that folks are making for us.

1:26:27Thank you.

1:26:30That's great.

1:26:30Hopefully this is kind of a good advertisement

1:26:34for the developers out there who are looking to do some works.

1:26:36I know there's lots of groups

1:26:38who want to do some charity connections.

1:26:40So if you're out there, find Melissa.

1:26:44And we'll see what we can get

1:26:46within the city limits for you.

1:26:47Thanks.

1:26:49Thank you.

1:26:51Okay. And last, actually,

1:26:52I made a mistake as councillor Downer.

1:26:55Thank you.

1:26:56Thank you through you, Mr. Mayor.

1:26:57So this is, this would be,

1:27:00even if it was realized this vision,

1:27:02it would be a five to 10 year project.

1:27:05This is not next year.

1:27:07The hope, whatever process we did,

1:27:09if this was to be realized,

1:27:12or any other project in the city working with a developer

1:27:16would probably take that kind of time as well.

1:27:19What are you doing in the interim?

1:27:20What's happening?

1:27:22Thank you for the question through the mayor.

1:27:24We continue to look for interim options

1:27:29as well as building towards a future state ideal vision

1:27:33for where we want to be.

1:27:35The Children's Foundation

1:27:36and the Guelph Community Health Center

1:27:38are initiating a joint site selection process

1:27:41and we'll be doing some more public facing reach outs

1:27:45for both a short-term space

1:27:47and continuing to build out our vision for a long-term space,

1:27:50which includes the option we're bringing forward

1:27:53for your consideration today

1:27:55and any other options that might come forward.

1:28:02So what you just said,

1:28:04sort of just raises another question for me.

1:28:07So who is bringing forward this option?

1:28:11So is it you and the cohort or charity groups

1:28:16or is it the person, Woods Development,

1:28:19that owns that land?

1:28:22I'm sort of now, I'm sort of like wondering

1:28:24like I thought it was a proposal from the developer.

1:28:29Thank you for the question through the mayor.

1:28:31This is where my understanding

1:28:33of all the official parts of the process,

1:28:35so forgive me if we've not gone through the proper process,

1:28:39but this is a community-driven project.

1:28:42The Children's Foundation and the SEED need a new location.

1:28:46In our search for a new location,

1:28:48in talking to one of our partners,

1:28:50we uncovered what we think is a really

1:28:53high potential opportunity.

1:28:56And so, Woods Development Group is our partner in this.

1:29:00They are our current landlord

1:29:01and we have been talking with them about this option.

1:29:09Okay.

1:29:11Thank you very much.

1:29:12Okay, I have to say what I always say.

1:29:14We're circling.

1:29:15Back to you.

1:29:17Thank you very much.

1:29:17Just very quickly, and thank you for the document

1:29:20that you sent on Friday afternoon.

1:29:22My question is, is that a public document?

1:29:25Because I think back to almost a year ago

1:29:28where you approached me at the St. Joseph's Fundraising event

1:29:33with this initiative and it's almost a year later.

1:29:36So this isn't a new idea.

1:29:37It's been developing for a while.

1:29:39Is that document, because I asked clerks to check

1:29:42when you sent it to us if it can be public?

1:29:44Because part of my concern is,

1:29:46wealth taxpayers have no idea that this request

1:29:49is coming forward.

1:29:51So I have a request.

1:29:53Is that something that is a public document?

1:29:57So, Councillor Prusatil,

1:30:00you know what motion is coming for from Councillor Downer.

1:30:03She sent it a long time ago.

1:30:05It specifically asks for that to become public.

1:30:09So that's being tabled in literally 30 seconds.

1:30:13I think that's a little out of scope for our delegate.

1:30:16To be fair, my mailbox filled up this morning

1:30:19with all these motions and stuff,

1:30:20and I've been running around not able to read them all.

1:30:22So to be fair, that's the way the business has gone.

1:30:27Okay.

1:30:28Are you done with the delegate?

1:30:31Thank you very much.

1:30:32Thank you. Appreciate it.

1:30:33And your work.

1:30:35Okay, so before I turn it over to Councillor Downer,

1:30:40I forgot to tell the location of this.

1:30:43So when you hear Wellington County,

1:30:46you might think of like where, right?

1:30:48So it is at the dead end of Elmira Road and Fife.

1:30:53Elmira Road and Fife.

1:30:58Okay, so Elmira dead ends,

1:31:01and there's like literally a cul-de-sac,

1:31:04and it's there.

1:31:06So it's right there.

1:31:08Right at the dead end, cornered by Fife and White Law,

1:31:12if I could give you the exact kind of corner.

1:31:15All right, so we're not talking,

1:31:17you know, five kilometers down the road

1:31:20or something like that.

1:31:22It's Guelph, Guelph, Guelph, Guelph,

1:31:24dead ends and right there is Guelph-Aremasa.

1:31:27Okay, so I just want to make sure everyone was aware of that.

1:31:32The other thing that I just wanted to state was that

1:31:40both my colleagues, Bousatil and Alt,

1:31:45continued in their questions to bring up

1:31:48the cost to taxpayers of Guelph.

1:31:52So in the motion that has been public for quite some time,

1:31:58it specifically says that if this opportunity is explored,

1:32:03it would be cost-neutral to the city of Guelph.

1:32:06So that's already public and has been for quite some time,

1:32:10so not quite sure where the cost

1:32:13to taxpayers of Guelph is coming from.

1:32:16What else is public is, not public story,

1:32:19but a counselor downers motion, which she's about to table,

1:32:23which was sent to everyone earlier,

1:32:25also says the exact same thing.

1:32:28So anyways, I just thought I'd make sure

1:32:31that that was restated because it looks like

1:32:36there might be some, I don't know what's happening here,

1:32:38miscommunication or differences of opinion.

1:32:41I don't know what's happening,

1:32:42but no cost to the city of Guelph.

1:32:45It's on the agenda.

1:32:46No, it's right here, I'm gonna circle it.

1:32:49It's right there.

1:32:52So the other thing is, is that there was some narrative there

1:32:57from my colleagues around like annexation

1:33:01or boundary expansion.

1:33:03There is no language of that anywhere here.

1:33:08There's no language of that in the motion

1:33:10coming forward from council or downer either.

1:33:12That's also been public.

1:33:14No language around annexation.

1:33:17There is something called an MSA,

1:33:19a municipal service agreement, which can be done

1:33:21and has been done in the city of Guelph,

1:33:25where there's servicing that is provided,

1:33:29but it does not mean that the lands would actually be annexed

1:33:33or boundary changes would even happen,

1:33:35but I have no idea.

1:33:36That's what the exploratory kind of permission would be

1:33:41and to move this process further.

1:33:44So I think I've kind of addressed as the mover of this issue,

1:33:49some of the narrative and points that have come up

1:33:51from my colleagues, which they have every right to table,

1:33:54and I have every right to make sure

1:33:56that the facts are there on the table as well

1:33:59for people to hear back as well.

1:34:02So councillor Downer, over to you.

1:34:06Yes, thanks.

1:34:07So I don't know if their clerks could put up the motion.

1:34:14Maybe just keep it there for a few minutes.

1:34:16I'd need a seconder first.

1:34:18Councillor Allt?

1:34:20Yep, Ault.

1:34:21Okay, move by yourself.

1:34:22So the mayor presented this,

1:34:27and thanks to the mayor for putting this out there,

1:34:28because this discussion has been somewhat out

1:34:30in the community and raised here and there,

1:34:33but there's been, from my perspective,

1:34:36and sort of what I realized more about is

1:34:38we got closer to this meeting

1:34:39and people are saying to me,

1:34:40well, what is this?

1:34:41What is this about?

1:34:42There is no proposal in the package.

1:34:45There's nothing here that's showing exactly

1:34:49what this would look like and what it entails

1:34:52and who's the proponent or anything like that,

1:34:54and it is the Woods Development Group.

1:34:58And to me, that's been problematic.

1:35:01So it's not transparent to the public.

1:35:04It's not transparent to other developers

1:35:06that who may be interested in a similar,

1:35:09like being a host to this.

1:35:12And it's not transparent to other charities

1:35:14who may want to be involved.

1:35:15There's just sort of been this sort of rumor

1:35:18going around in the community.

1:35:19So I appreciate the mayor's son bringing it to us

1:35:22and saying, you know, that just sort of

1:35:28as a catalyst, I would say.

1:35:31So the motion is basically, you know,

1:35:35about creating a more transparent process.

1:35:37And it's asking for the proponent,

1:35:40who I'm not quite clear now who is.

1:35:42So it might be proponents to sort of bring forward

1:35:45a proposal.

1:35:46Now, I know that we received an email

1:35:49from Susan Frazin today with a PowerPoint presentation,

1:35:55eight pages.

1:35:56I mean, I'm expecting that if this comes,

1:36:00that it would be much more of a proposal than that

1:36:02for our staff to respond to.

1:36:05And so what I want is that proposal to be made public

1:36:08and I want, with this motion,

1:36:11I would like for once they've received it to make a public

1:36:16and also then to have staff come back with a full report

1:36:20on what the next steps might be,

1:36:22what are the, we've asked for it to be revenue neutral,

1:36:26but like what are the, what kind of potential costs

1:36:30would it incur?

1:36:31Because, you know, affordable housing is exempt

1:36:34from development charges.

1:36:36But that doesn't mean that the costs go away.

1:36:39Exemptions don't mean that costs go away.

1:36:41It means that the rest of the taxpayers

1:36:43in the city of Guelph pick up that cost.

1:36:46So I think we all have to be aware and eyes wide open

1:36:50about what the implications of developing something

1:36:56in outside the city boundaries are not developing it,

1:36:59but are having discussions around that.

1:37:01So the point is to have staff fully report back

1:37:05on what those are and what they can from a proposal

1:37:10because this isn't an application.

1:37:11And when what the next steps might be,

1:37:13I mean, council may say like, no, at that time,

1:37:16this is just too risky for us.

1:37:19Or in the meantime, maybe another developer has come forward

1:37:22because we've been very public about this and transparent

1:37:25who could do something in the city of Guelph.

1:37:27So that's sort of the point of bringing this forward.

1:37:33Okay, thank you very much.

1:37:34And again, just to reiterate what this is,

1:37:36the process with a proposal or a bit bigger

1:37:39than the proposal to come forward publicly.

1:37:43So that ball would be in the court of the developer

1:37:46and anyone else that's involved in it or whatever.

1:37:48And the second part is that, it would come back

1:37:52looking at any of the sort of more technical process issues,

1:37:55but also cost neutral is in there in that language.

1:37:59And I would also like our CAO, Tara Baker,

1:38:03to also respond to the motion to see

1:38:07whatever thoughts she might have on it as well.

1:38:12Sure, and through you, Mr. Mayor, to Councillor Downer.

1:38:19Staff have had very preliminary discussions about this.

1:38:26And I think, share some of the,

1:38:29there's potential hurdles here that have been talked about.

1:38:35We can accommodate only so much growth

1:38:39with the capacity, the water capacity that we have.

1:38:42And we are making investments and there's sequencing

1:38:47of growth that has to happen to kind of match

1:38:50that water capacity and wastewater capacity sequencing

1:38:54over the next 30, 40 years.

1:38:56And so the report back, the motions as they are tabled,

1:39:02staff are comfortable with that.

1:39:04It gives us the opportunity to look into those things

1:39:08and report back to council about those concerns

1:39:12and explore more about this

1:39:17because the lands are not in Guelph.

1:39:19And so for city staff to explore this

1:39:24is also a bit delicate given that these lands

1:39:29are outside of our boundary.

1:39:30And so these are concerns that we have had

1:39:35in terms of how to progress this conversation, if at all.

1:39:40And so the motions here, I think give that space

1:39:45to have early conversations and come back with next steps.

1:39:53Thank you, Councillor Downer.

1:39:56Sorry, at Caron, please, and then alt.

1:39:58And then I think I can call the vote after that.

1:40:02Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

1:40:03And I really appreciate that answer

1:40:04because we know that there's some other information

1:40:12that we don't have here this afternoon.

1:40:14We know that the public

1:40:15hasn't also been presented with that information.

1:40:18The cost neutrality doesn't include staff time

1:40:22for exploration.

1:40:23And I just wonder what would be the estimate of time

1:40:26if we were to pass this?

1:40:27And let me be frank.

1:40:30Exploration of an idea that helps our charitable

1:40:33and our social benefit sector is something

1:40:35that's near and dear to something that I value.

1:40:38We all benefit when our local charities

1:40:41and community organizations are thriving

1:40:43and have the space to do their good work.

1:40:46So that's not the issue for me.

1:40:48It's about process and transparency.

1:40:51Cost neutrality, if we send you out to do work,

1:40:54that means other work isn't getting done

1:40:56and staff capacity is already maxed out.

1:40:59How long could this exploration take

1:41:03and what other work would be put on the back burner

1:41:05if you were out having those conversations

1:41:08and doing data collection, water supply collection,

1:41:13transit, transportation, all the different things

1:41:17that would play in all the components

1:41:18that would be required to truly explore this

1:41:21to the full extent.

1:41:24So through the mayor, I think that the level of detail

1:41:29that you just got into as it relates to data collection,

1:41:33transit routes, all like those types of considerations

1:41:36would actually be, I would say, step two.

1:41:39Like staff would likely not get to that level of detail

1:41:42in this kind of exploratory motion.

1:41:44I would say that if there is any requirement

1:41:49that needs budget in terms of studies,

1:41:53next legal advice, that would not occur

1:41:59before seeking that budget direction from council.

1:42:02And so at this point, the exploratory language for me

1:42:07is interpreting early understanding,

1:42:12exploring with the proponents and having staff time,

1:42:17not excessive, but staff time to be able to report back

1:42:22on the next steps.

1:42:23What could council foresee needing to be required

1:42:28to move further, including fiscal impact at that time?

1:42:34I think to, just in terms of timeline,

1:42:38so if this gets approved today,

1:42:41I completely agree with you that the staff capacity

1:42:45right now to do this work is limited.

1:42:50And the election kind of timing here with council meetings,

1:42:56the council meeting, there's not that many left

1:43:00before we're getting into that October period.

1:43:03And so this likely would come back from staff later

1:43:07or into the new term.

1:43:09Okay, so just to clarify, exploration city staff

1:43:13to township staff, as well as the proponents,

1:43:16but it doesn't include other stakeholders

1:43:18like other developers who might have land

1:43:20for charitable purposes.

1:43:22It doesn't include economic development,

1:43:23exploring land that could be used in lieu of this proposal.

1:43:27This is just the proponents plus city council,

1:43:31city staff going to Guelph or Amasa staff

1:43:33and what staff would be involved in that?

1:43:36Would it be you CAO to CAO or planning staff?

1:43:39Sorry, I'm just gonna jump in just cause I think you're,

1:43:42I think you're unfortunately jumping the gun

1:43:44a little bit here.

1:43:46The ball is in the proponents court first.

1:43:49Right.

1:43:50So however long the proponent takes

1:43:52to make the proposal public and have it become like,

1:43:57then staff act.

1:43:59So if we pass this today,

1:44:01staff actually don't do anything

1:44:03because the proponent has to act first.

1:44:06True.

1:44:06Okay, so I just wanna make sure

1:44:07that there's that awareness issue.

1:44:09Staff aren't gonna do a thing until the proponent.

1:44:11So if the proponent takes a week, so be it,

1:44:13but if the proponent takes three months,

1:44:15four months, so be it too.

1:44:16Like everything sort of relies on the proponent

1:44:18and the partners to do something publicly

1:44:22as the motion stated first, then staff will act.

1:44:25Just wanna make sure everyone knew

1:44:26the sequencing of the motions.

1:44:28Sure, and I appreciate that,

1:44:29Mary-Gathry for that clarification.

1:44:31I'm trying to scope clause two,

1:44:33which is when that proposal comes in,

1:44:36we are directing staff in clause two

1:44:39to go ahead and have those conversations.

1:44:41And I'm just trying to scope what staff would be involved.

1:44:45Is it just CAO to CAO?

1:44:47Is it planning staff?

1:44:48Would there be any other stakeholders involved?

1:44:52Trying to scope what amount of work clause two.

1:44:54If I vote in favor of clause two,

1:44:56I'd just like to know what the impact is.

1:44:58Yeah, so through the mayor, I'm interpreting it.

1:45:00So I'd also look to maybe the mover

1:45:04to make sure that this is satisfactory.

1:45:06But the way that I'm interpreting it

1:45:08would be more senior level staff

1:45:11that would be having conversations might be myself,

1:45:15maybe some of my colleagues here beside me.

1:45:19And that we would be having

1:45:21those kind of early exploratory conversations at that level.

1:45:25That helps, and hopefully that's also

1:45:26the understanding of the mover.

1:45:32Okay, Kateen, please.

1:45:34And then Alt, and then I'll, I'm so sorry,

1:45:37I messed up my order, it's Alt,

1:45:38and then I'll go to you to bring us home, Kateen, okay?

1:45:41So Alt first.

1:45:42Thank you very much, because we are throwing around

1:45:46something that's incredibly ambiguous,

1:45:47and not really certain what it is right now.

1:45:50Through you, Mayor Guthrie, to CAO Baker.

1:45:54First of all, just clearly and definitively,

1:45:57is this a planning proposal?

1:46:05Through the mayor, not yet.

1:46:06I think that what we're talking about is an idea.

1:46:10And so at this stage in the format that we have it,

1:46:14it is not a proposal.

1:46:17If it becomes, I guess, in step two, a planning proposal,

1:46:23my concern is how others within the community,

1:46:28how other developers in the community would respond.

1:46:31Is this potentially jumping the queue?

1:46:33I would say through the mayor,

1:46:36those are the things that we'd report back on.

1:46:37Like we're not getting into, when you say step two,

1:46:41I'm foreseeing step two would be after staff report back,

1:46:45would be step two.

1:46:46Yeah.

1:46:48Okay, with regards, I'm very concerned about governance

1:46:52and terminology.

1:46:54We've used the term cost neutral quite a bit,

1:46:56and I frankly don't see this as cost neutral at all.

1:47:00I don't see the proposal as cost neutral

1:47:02or anything going forward,

1:47:03because anything that we do will have an impact

1:47:05on anything that's currently budgeted.

1:47:07Am I correct in that?

1:47:09And it could actually lead to some things

1:47:11actually falling off the agenda.

1:47:13Is that correct?

1:47:18So through the mayor, I guess that really is,

1:47:20we have not evaluated everything at this point.

1:47:23And so I think that there is some concern on staff's part

1:47:27that there will be cost in though,

1:47:29but however the motion is very clear

1:47:31that you would like us to report back

1:47:34with that understanding that you're looking for cost neutral.

1:47:38And so then that gives staff the ability

1:47:40to respond back with that lens.

1:47:43And stating then it's not cost neutral.

1:47:45Okay, thank you.

1:47:52Councillor Caitlin, please.

1:47:53And then it looks like Gipps, then I'll call the vote.

1:47:58Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor.

1:48:00So in terms of process,

1:48:03if the groups that are looking for the charity hub

1:48:08come back in X amount of time

1:48:10and say we've found another solution

1:48:13and it's gonna be in Guelph or somewhere else

1:48:14and we're all covered,

1:48:17would that just be coming back to us

1:48:18an information report then

1:48:19to let us know that it's kind of concluded?

1:48:26Through the mayor, yeah, depending on the situation,

1:48:28I think we'd consider the need

1:48:32for and the right way in which to report back.

1:48:36But I think there's potentially many outcomes

1:48:41through the discussions that may occur.

1:48:43So it's hard to really commit at this point.

1:48:46Okay, I'm just wondering if it's like gonna go away

1:48:50into the ether or if we'll find out what happened basically

1:48:55if there isn't a report back.

1:48:57Yes, staff will report back in some form.

1:48:59Absolutely, thank you.

1:49:02Okay, thank you.

1:49:03And Councillor Gibson.

1:49:08Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor,

1:49:09push the wrong button there.

1:49:10Can I just ask for the motion to be put back on the screen

1:49:13one last time if you don't mind?

1:49:30Okay, thanks.

1:49:31I just wanted to prove,

1:49:32I just wanted to read it again

1:49:34in that second clause as well.

1:49:37I think council has done a really good job

1:49:40trying to lay out concerns from the outset.

1:49:46We've spent a lot of time around the horseshoes

1:49:48you're now hearing about ifs, answer, buts,

1:49:51but this is an exploratory motion.

1:49:54And I think that the way it's worded is exploratory

1:49:57and that it's simply really what it's asking for

1:49:59is to staff to spend some time coming back

1:50:02with answers to those questions,

1:50:04but to try and explore what the term cost neutral means

1:50:09at this point, this is a back and forth.

1:50:13So I think I'm happy to support,

1:50:15I'm happy to see where this goes.

1:50:17I think in general, it's an ambitious

1:50:19and it's worthy of exploration,

1:50:23but at the end of the day,

1:50:24we'll all see what it shakes out to be for our budgets

1:50:29and for our cooperation with the township.

1:50:32So happy to support and I like to just reiterate

1:50:37and refocus our conversation

1:50:38on the exploratory nature of this motion.

1:50:42It's not committing us to anything at this point.

1:50:45All right, thank you.

1:50:46And Billing, please.

1:50:49Through you, Mr. Mayor, to our CAO,

1:50:54have staff not already high level done

1:50:57some exploration on this issue?

1:51:04Through the mayor to council Billings,

1:51:07we have had a meeting,

1:51:10it was a while ago with the proponent,

1:51:13but we have not had any further conversations

1:51:16or engagement with the other proponent

1:51:21that was the nonprofit organizations

1:51:23or Guelph-Era-Massa township at this point.

1:51:28Okay, but then I thought the issue was water capacity.

1:51:34And if we don't have the water capacity,

1:51:36is this a moot point or do you still support

1:51:40exploring this matter?

1:51:44Through the mayor,

1:51:46I staff believe that water capacity

1:51:49is absolutely going to be the limiting factor for this.

1:51:55And so I don't believe though it's a moot point.

1:52:00I think that there's still value

1:52:01in having the exploratory conversations

1:52:04for the ability for staff to report back

1:52:06about those concerns.

1:52:08I think at this point we've had conversations,

1:52:12but there hasn't really been a mechanism

1:52:14for staff to report back

1:52:15because there hasn't been a public issuing of this proposal.

1:52:21And so I feel like the motions just enable

1:52:24this to those conversations to happen with the right people

1:52:30and offer the way to report back out to council

1:52:34for evaluation of next steps.

1:52:36Okay, thank you.

1:52:38Thank you for that, Tara.

1:52:42All right, thank you.

1:52:43Seeing nothing further,

1:52:45thank you, Councillor Downer,

1:52:47for the language in your motion.

1:52:49Thank you, Councillor Gibson,

1:52:51for in my opinion succinctly addressing

1:52:55what the motion is in front of us here.

1:53:00I believe it is incumbent upon me as the mayor

1:53:03that when you are aware of,

1:53:06and many around the horse who are aware of,

1:53:10this opportunity that it's imperative

1:53:16that we explore this.

1:53:18And much of my colleagues have talked a little bit

1:53:21about more of the charitable side,

1:53:23and I think by default we have one of the charitable groups

1:53:26as a delegate, so it kind of makes sense

1:53:28that you speak in that.

1:53:30But I just want to, before I call the vote,

1:53:32just remind everyone that we're talking about

1:53:34hundreds of affordable housing

1:53:36and attainable housing units here too.

1:53:38Okay, so as much as I hear,

1:53:40well, you could probably just go get a commercial space

1:53:42maybe somewhere else,

1:53:43or maybe you should explore over there or over there.

1:53:45That's all fair, I mean, not only have you said that,

1:53:48but even the delegate said that, that's fair.

1:53:50But are those other spaces

1:53:52going to have hundreds of affordable housing units there

1:53:54as well?

1:53:56No.

1:53:57And that's why this vision, I think,

1:53:59compels us to at least explore.

1:54:02At least explore, and I see some heads nodding

1:54:04in the audience, thank you.

1:54:06So I think this is worthy of that.

1:54:12And I appreciate the conversation and the willingness

1:54:17to maybe see if we can get the supportive vote here

1:54:20to have this continue in the process that's been laid out.

1:54:24I think it's a wonderful thing for our community

1:54:27to try to wrap around, and I'm glad that it's public now,

1:54:31which was my intent, which was fully my intent

1:54:34to bring this forward publicly,

1:54:37to see if we can explore this further.

1:54:40So I'm very, obviously very supportive of this,

1:54:42and hoping my colleagues will at least support exploring it.

1:54:47With that, I'll call the vote then.

1:54:49Is anyone against this motion?

1:54:54Unanimous, thank you very much.

1:54:56I appreciate that.

1:54:58Okay, let me keep going.

1:55:01We have, now, just one second, everybody.