Guelph City Council directs the City Clerk’s Office to offer internet voting as an alternative voting method for the 2026 municipal and school board election subject…

1:13:58That we do have several delegations

1:14:00for titled on the agenda, 2026 municipal election,

1:14:04alternative voting methods and accessible voting service.

1:14:09So as I said, we have several delegations.

1:14:12I'm going to, you know, go through each person

1:14:14and some people will be here in person.

1:14:17Some people might be phoned.

1:14:19Some people might be on video.

1:14:20So we'll just take some time.

1:14:22I've had a couple of requests through to me

1:14:24just for some accommodation for some members

1:14:27that are coming forward,

1:14:29to give a little bit more time due to some,

1:14:32actually accessibility constraints

1:14:34that they're waiting through.

1:14:35So we're going to honor that.

1:14:37And I would just ask that if there's members

1:14:41of the public that are looking to come forward,

1:14:44that if you signed up, many of the names I recognize here,

1:14:47so you might know the process,

1:14:48but for some that might be new,

1:14:50you get no more than five minutes, just so you know,

1:14:53you will hear a tone at the four minute and 30 second mark.

1:14:57That gives you a warning that you have only 30 seconds left.

1:15:01I really don't like cutting people off,

1:15:03so please don't go over the five minutes.

1:15:06And then after you're done, please just stick around

1:15:09in case there is a question for myself or my colleagues,

1:15:13and then we'll move on to the next person

1:15:14and the next person and so on.

1:15:17Although we respect that everyone has obviously

1:15:20taken the time to get ready for their delegation here.

1:15:24I've said it often here as well.

1:15:27If a delegate happens to say something similar

1:15:29that you were gonna say, we don't mind ditto either.

1:15:32And we of course have this room in this arena,

1:15:36both online and here, as one where freedom

1:15:39of those opinions can be stated either one way or another.

1:15:45So with that, I'm gonna kick us off by video.

1:15:48It's James Brunet.

1:15:53And we'll just see if James Brunet joins us.

1:16:00Thanks.

1:16:02Okay, hi James, it's Mayor Guthrie here,

1:16:05and we can both see and I can hear you as well.

1:16:07So you're coming through very, very well.

1:16:09Welcome, and I'll turn it over to you, go right ahead.

1:16:12Yeah, thanks a lot.

1:16:13So my name is James Brunet.

1:16:15I have several years experience in software development,

1:16:19web applications and networking in the public

1:16:21and private sector.

1:16:23And part of my work involved designing

1:16:25and delivering training on cybersecurity.

1:16:27In winter of 2023, I worked at Toronto Metropolitan University

1:16:31where I taught a course called Cybersecurity in Society,

1:16:34which explored the intersection of cybersecurity,

1:16:37public and private institutions and more.

1:16:40Then I have been a full-time instructor

1:16:42at Carleton University.

1:16:43I'm a faculty member in Carleton School

1:16:45of Information Technology,

1:16:47where I teach courses about web application development

1:16:49and software project management.

1:16:51I'm also a graduate student,

1:16:53at least for now, as I'll be defending my thesis on June 7th.

1:16:57So very, very soon.

1:16:58My area of academic research is the cybersecurity

1:17:02of online voting in Ontario specifically.

1:17:05And in the past two years,

1:17:07I've co-authored three peer-reviewed papers

1:17:09with other experts in the field

1:17:11that specifically discuss online voting

1:17:13in Ontario and cybersecurity.

1:17:16This research consisted of me doing a variety of tasks.

1:17:19I performed cybersecurity analysis

1:17:21of online voting systems that are available in Ontario.

1:17:25I facilitated focus groups with municipal clerks

1:17:28and other officials to discuss the procedural steps

1:17:32taken in these online elections.

1:17:34And I've also gathered information about incidents

1:17:37during the 2022 municipal election.

1:17:39And as part of this research,

1:17:41I've discovered multiple security vulnerabilities,

1:17:44both technical and procedural,

1:17:46in existing online voting systems used in Ontario,

1:17:49and collaborated with online voting companies

1:17:51to fix these vulnerabilities.

1:17:53As some of you may know,

1:17:55there are currently standards being developed

1:17:57for online voting in Canada

1:17:59by the Digital Governance Standards Institute.

1:18:01I've written part of this standard

1:18:02as a member of the technical committee

1:18:04for this online voting standard.

1:18:06I'll be presenting about election technology

1:18:08with Dr. Nicole Goodman and Dr. Alexander Essex

1:18:11at the annual EMCTO conference in June,

1:18:13with the name of our talk being

1:18:15when digital elections go wrong and how to fix it.

1:18:19I hope to see some of you there at our session.

1:18:21And in that session,

1:18:22we'll discuss how we identified 18 different incidents

1:18:26involving online and telephone voting in the 2022 election.

1:18:30So that brings me to the topic

1:18:34that I'd like to specifically discuss.

1:18:35My most recent paper,

1:18:37which we presented last fall

1:18:39at the 8th International Joint Conference

1:18:40on Electronic Voting in Luxembourg,

1:18:42it was called Online Voting in Ontario Municipalities,

1:18:45a Standards-Based Review.

1:18:47And I uploaded this paper as correspondence for this meeting.

1:18:51In this peer-reviewed paper,

1:18:53we compared the practices of online voting in Ontario

1:18:56with the best practices defined by the Council of Europe,

1:18:59which is an intergovernmental body in Europe.

1:19:01These best practices include requirements

1:19:04around certification, testing, procurement, auditing,

1:19:07operation, regulation, staffing, and a whole lot more.

1:19:11And in short, so in short, we evaluated

1:19:13whether municipalities, vendors,

1:19:15and the province of Ontario

1:19:17do what is necessary,

1:19:18or at least what is considered necessary

1:19:20in other democracies,

1:19:21for safe, transparent, and fair elections.

1:19:25Unfortunately, our results found that municipalities

1:19:28in the province were broadly non-compliant

1:19:30with these internationally recognized best practices.

1:19:33Only 14% of these Council of Europe directives

1:19:36were classified as fully met.

1:19:37Another 14% partially met with 46% broadly unmet.

1:19:42So the situation in Ontario is not great at the moment.

1:19:45It's far below the standard set

1:19:47in other robust democracies that use online voting.

1:19:50And while it is up to city council to decide,

1:19:52and there are certainly benefits to online voting,

1:19:55I would caution you that there are numerous risks involved

1:19:57that are specific to online voting,

1:19:59or are more severe in the online voting context.

1:20:02And little has been done at this point in Ontario

1:20:05to mitigate many of these risks.

1:20:06I'd be happy to answer any questions about that.

1:20:08I would also add delegating the clerk

1:20:11to determine security and testing requirements

1:20:14is giving someone quite a difficult task.

1:20:16This is an active area of academic research,

1:20:19and there is no guidance from the province

1:20:21or Canadian standard that currently exists.

1:20:24And it may be a reasonable outcome

1:20:25that no system meets the security requirements of the clerk

1:20:28for the reasons outlined earlier.

1:20:29And so that's my presentation.

1:20:33Hey, thank you so much for joining us.

1:20:35And we have one question from Councillor Klassen,

1:20:38and a second from Councillor Bousetil.

1:20:41Councillor Klassen?

1:20:42Yes, through you, Mr. Mayor to Mr. Brunet.

1:20:44I had a question with regard to

1:20:47if anyone in Ontario is doing it well,

1:20:51and then if not, looking beyond Ontario,

1:20:55who in Europe might be doing online voting well?

1:21:03Great question.

1:21:04So is anyone in Ontario doing it well?

1:21:07I mean, well is a subjective term,

1:21:09but when we look at these standards,

1:21:12unfortunately, there are six vendors

1:21:16that offered e-voting services

1:21:18in the last municipal election, two different municipalities.

1:21:22Now the vendors are changing in the next election.

1:21:27One of these vendors has declared bankruptcy,

1:21:28another one is intending to leave the space,

1:21:31and there may be new vendors that enter the space.

1:21:33But in the past election,

1:21:35unfortunately none of these vendors offered solutions

1:21:38that met these standards, these international standards.

1:21:42And so I would say no.

1:21:46Now looking beyond Ontario, who is doing well?

1:21:50Switzerland is a great example of a country

1:21:53that in many ways I would say is a model

1:21:55for the adoption of e-voting.

1:21:58The federal legislature has put together,

1:22:01essentially done a lot of consultation with academics,

1:22:04put together a detailed requirements document,

1:22:07which is enshrined in legislation

1:22:09for what sort of characteristics we need in this system,

1:22:11and what sort of procedural requirements exist,

1:22:14and if there were two contractive vendor,

1:22:16what sort of requirements that vendor would need to meet,

1:22:19and then has proceeded to build the system using SwissPost,

1:22:22which is their Crown Corporation,

1:22:24essentially for their postal service,

1:22:28and have gradually rolled out e-voting,

1:22:30but allowing for public inspection of the source code,

1:22:34as well as for kind of like a testing period

1:22:38for academics and security researchers

1:22:40to see if there are vulnerabilities in the system,

1:22:42and then kind of expanding gradually out to pilot projects,

1:22:45and then eventually with the idea

1:22:48of having this system available in federal elections

1:22:51in Switzerland, but they're not all the way there yet.

1:22:55But that's a long and gradual process that they've been doing,

1:22:58very different from what we've seen in Ontario.

1:23:01Okay, thank you.

1:23:02And to clarify, it's their federal election system

1:23:05that uses this system.

1:23:07Well, it's kind of like there's federal law

1:23:10that regulates this system,

1:23:12but, and I think the end goal is to use it in federal elections.

1:23:17Some canton's, which are kind of like the provinces,

1:23:20are running pilot projects with this sort of technology.

1:23:24So it's kind of like binding on lower levels

1:23:25of government as well.

1:23:27Obviously we have a different legal situation in Canada.

1:23:31Okay, thank you.

1:23:31I don't have any more questions.

1:23:33Great, thank you.

1:23:34And, sir, Bustill?

1:23:37Yes, thank you.

1:23:38And through the mayor,

1:23:39thank you for your delegation.

1:23:41I think I have the answer to my question.

1:23:45In the motion from the committee, the whole,

1:23:48it was the first motion and you said something about high risk.

1:23:52In the clerk's report,

1:23:53they reported this way of voting as a high risk.

1:23:59And I think what you just said now

1:24:02defines what that high risk is,

1:24:04that there is a lack of documents

1:24:07enshrined in a legislation.

1:24:09Is that a fair, does that kind of validate what is high risk?

1:24:16I mean, there certainly is,

1:24:19there are regulatory requirements of these standards,

1:24:22right, so these standards require that there be standards,

1:24:26essentially that's part of the standard.

1:24:27And of course we're not there yet in Ontario.

1:24:29And so certainly that's a weakness.

1:24:32That's not directly a risk,

1:24:34maybe not having a standard,

1:24:36you could still be doing everything right.

1:24:39But unfortunately other criteria are also not being met.

1:24:41And so let me think here.

1:24:48When it comes to like a,

1:24:49let's take a more specific example.

1:24:51There are like cybersecurity requirements

1:24:55when it comes to these e-voting systems

1:24:57that require ballot secrecy to be protected

1:25:02through cryptographic mechanisms.

1:25:05But not all e-voting vendors in Ontario do that.

1:25:08And so there's the standard that sort of exists

1:25:11and so the academic literature

1:25:12about how to design e-voting systems.

1:25:15And then we see a divergence in Ontario

1:25:17where some vendors, they don't attempt to have systems

1:25:21that meet those requirements that exist

1:25:24in other jurisdictions.

1:25:28Thank you, thank you for that.

1:25:32Thank you, or Rourke and then Alt and then Karan.

1:25:38Thank you, Marigos.

1:25:39Thanks for being with us

1:25:40and good luck on your thesis defense.

1:25:45I have two questions and one is when will we know,

1:25:49when will people who are on the fence

1:25:50and who are concerned,

1:25:53when will we know that there is an e-voting solution

1:25:57that meets the right standards?

1:25:59Is it when elections Ontario

1:26:01or elections Canada adopt something?

1:26:02Is it when there's the standard?

1:26:05So when will the people who are perhaps more risk averse

1:26:11know the system is secure?

1:26:17Thanks for the question.

1:26:18So that's a difficult question to answer.

1:26:22However, there are ways that you can evaluate

1:26:26the safety of these systems.

1:26:29One thing that would be helpful

1:26:31is the existence of a standard relevant in Ontario.

1:26:34So if a standard existed, that would be a positive step forward.

1:26:38Another positive step forward would be the existence

1:26:42of a ideally, ideally of a certification body

1:26:46that's able to take a look at the standard,

1:26:49take a look at the different e-voting systems

1:26:51that are available and certify those systems

1:26:53as meeting the standard.

1:26:55That's something that exists in other jurisdictions,

1:26:57not something that we currently have in Ontario.

1:27:02Thank you.

1:27:05Thank you, Alt please.

1:27:07Thank you very much.

1:27:08Thank you, Mr. Bernay for attending

1:27:10through Mayor Guthrie to you.

1:27:13I read, briefly read the Elections Canada report

1:27:16on e-voting that came out in February 2024.

1:27:20And from what I understand, Elections Canada

1:27:23is very clear that electronic voting can be a method,

1:27:26but is contingent upon independent standalone machinery,

1:27:31if that's the way that I get it.

1:27:33Is that correct or am I incorrect?

1:27:36Independent standalone machinery,

1:27:39I wouldn't say that that's necessarily

1:27:41the key requirement for these systems.

1:27:44I would say like one requirement for these systems

1:27:46is this idea of independent verification.

1:27:49And so with other methods of voting,

1:27:53when it comes to like a paper ballot election,

1:27:55for example, a scrutiny years can be present

1:27:58to oversee the counting and see that the election results

1:28:01are counted up fairly.

1:28:02With electronic voting, it gets a little more difficult.

1:28:06To provide evidence that the results

1:28:09of the election was counted correctly.

1:28:11Computers aren't magical, there's no guarantee

1:28:13that essentially the system is working as intended.

1:28:17I'm sorry for my background there.

1:28:19And so there are ways to develop systems

1:28:24that use cryptographic proofs to prove

1:28:28that the results of an election was counted correctly.

1:28:32And that proof can be verified by independent experts.

1:28:35But we're not there yet in Ontario.

1:28:37Some of these systems do generate some sort of proof.

1:28:39So some of the vendors in Ontario,

1:28:41they have systems that generate some sort of proof.

1:28:45But they're not made available to the public

1:28:48or to independent experts to verify the real election result.

1:28:52And so scrutiny years really don't have

1:28:53that level of access.

1:28:55And so to answer your question,

1:28:57and I know it's kind of roundabout,

1:28:58but like that sort of independent verifiability

1:29:01is something that would be really desirable in these systems.

1:29:06One last question.

1:29:07I've heard talk of blockchain technology.

1:29:10I know nothing about it.

1:29:12Can you explain how that might work in e-voting?

1:29:18Okay, blockchain, it's a good question.

1:29:22Blockchain is a technology that's used to create

1:29:26something called like an immutable distributed ledger.

1:29:29So it's a way to kind of have like a database

1:29:31that you can't change that's visible to the public.

1:29:35Now, that's what blockchain is.

1:29:39You can build an e-voting system

1:29:41that has some interaction with a blockchain.

1:29:44And some vendors have done that.

1:29:47In terms of the security guarantees

1:29:49that we're looking for with e-voting,

1:29:51I would say that many of the properties of blockchain

1:29:53are not directly relevant to e-voting.

1:29:56And so, yeah, that's kind of all I can say there.

1:30:01Blockchain is kind of like an immutable ledger

1:30:03so you could store all your votes, for example,

1:30:05on the blockchain and then you could have some guarantee

1:30:07that those votes weren't changed.

1:30:09But you have no guarantee that the votes weren't changed

1:30:11before they were placed onto the blockchain.

1:30:14And so, it's not a sort of silver bullet

1:30:18to make elections more secure.

1:30:23Thank you.

1:30:25Councillor Keran and then Kate.

1:30:29Thank you for your delegation.

1:30:31You're one of the probably more qualified experts

1:30:34that we've had delegate on this issue.

1:30:36So I really appreciate you taking the time

1:30:38to have a very stressful week in your life.

1:30:42Your expertise, of course, is online voting

1:30:46and cybersecurity.

1:30:48In your research and your work,

1:30:50did you ever compare the trust factor

1:30:54and the ability to manipulate other forms

1:30:58of alternative voting like a mail-in ballot

1:31:00or telephone voting and compare them

1:31:03to the risk of online voting?

1:31:05Because one of the things that we're all grappling

1:31:07with here tonight is risk mitigation.

1:31:10There's risk with online, there's risk with mail-in,

1:31:12there's risk with phone, there's risk with in-person.

1:31:15We're trying to balance all of the risks

1:31:18in each type of voting platform.

1:31:22Wondering if you could add any commentary to that.

1:31:26Yeah, that's a really good question.

1:31:27Like what are the risks with other methods of voting?

1:31:32Academic researchers have referred to the in-person

1:31:35paper ballots kind of like the gold standard

1:31:37when it comes to safety.

1:31:40Mail-in ballots, there are some potential concerns there

1:31:44for like voter coercion because you're not guaranteed

1:31:47to have privacy when you're casting your vote.

1:31:50It's possible someone takes your mail-in ballot

1:31:52before you receive it.

1:31:53In terms of the academic research that I've done,

1:31:56my specialty hasn't been with mail-in ballots.

1:31:59And so I can't really comment super specifically about that.

1:32:03But what I will say is that attacks against mail-in ballots

1:32:06are difficult to scale.

1:32:08And you don't have the same potential issue

1:32:11with online voting where with online voting,

1:32:15some of these systems, they don't produce evidence

1:32:17that the count of the vote is correct.

1:32:21With mail-in ballot, there still can be

1:32:24procedural constraints that you can put on

1:32:27that allow for scrutiny years to observe

1:32:28the counting of the ballots that you can't really have

1:32:31with an online election.

1:32:33And that would extend, of course, to telephone voting

1:32:35as well, which is similar to online voting in a lot of ways

1:32:39and has potentially even more risk.

1:32:41But I don't want to get into that.

1:32:43Yeah.

1:32:44I have heard of a technology where the,

1:32:47and I can't remember, I did just Google it,

1:32:50not that that is academic research rigor that would normally

1:32:55be required of you, that an online vote can produce

1:33:00a paper ballot at the other end so that there is something

1:33:03produced that is recountable in a physical form.

1:33:08Is that, again, if it is reproducing what it receives

1:33:14in an online form, is that considered any benefit?

1:33:20The new run-in to the issue of how do you

1:33:22guarantee that what was reproduced

1:33:24is what was actually cast by the voter?

1:33:27And so unfortunately, printing out the ballots

1:33:29and having a paper method of doing a recount,

1:33:33that wouldn't be a rigorous way of ensuring

1:33:37that the count is done correctly.

1:33:43Appreciate your time.

1:33:44Thanks.

1:33:50Councillor Caton, please.

1:33:52Thank you.

1:33:53Through you, Mr. Mayor.

1:33:54Thank you for coming, Mr. Brunet.

1:33:57So my understanding of what you're saying,

1:33:58and please correct me if I'm wrong,

1:34:00is that a combination of back-end security and processes

1:34:05are what's needed to make something truly robust and secure.

1:34:08Correct?

1:34:10It's a combination of different factors.

1:34:12And so, yeah, having taking appropriate cybersecurity

1:34:17considerations when building an application is important.

1:34:21Having strong procedural controls

1:34:25can be very important with these systems, especially

1:34:28in systems that require trust in individuals.

1:34:33And beyond that, there are, I think,

1:34:35special requirements for transparency

1:34:36when it comes to online voting.

1:34:38Because it's such a difficult problem to give transparency

1:34:40into how computers do things.

1:34:43And so if someone were to make claims about an election,

1:34:49it can be difficult to prove them wrong with online voting,

1:34:53because it's hard to produce the evidence

1:34:55that the count is correct.

1:34:58Or can be.

1:34:58Thank you.

1:34:59Mr. Mayor, so what do you think of the way

1:35:02that Halifax handles their online voting, where they have

1:35:05a judge who can take the key and go through the logs

1:35:12with specialized staff that they hire?

1:35:17OK, I can't really comment super specifically

1:35:20about Halifax's system, because I don't

1:35:23have direct experience knowing exactly how it works.

1:35:26It's good that there is some sort of procedural control there.

1:35:32But often, how these systems work,

1:35:36I can speak in a general case, at least

1:35:38from what I know in the Ontario context,

1:35:40is that vendors are selling a technology, like online voting.

1:35:43And the vendor is responsible for conducting much of the election,

1:35:46or at least administering a substantial part of the election.

1:35:49And so often, how these elections work

1:35:53is that the results are presented by the vendor

1:35:55to the municipality.

1:35:57And then the municipality reports the results.

1:36:01And so in terms of what's going on with the vendor,

1:36:04the city doesn't have as much insight into that.

1:36:06And while the vendor can provide logs and additional information

1:36:10to the city about the conduct of the election,

1:36:13that is still kind of boiling down to trust, which is not

1:36:17generally something that we would expect

1:36:21with other forms of voting.

1:36:23If it makes sense, let's say you had a particular polling

1:36:28location where the counting of the votes

1:36:31was subcontracted to some individual who went to the back room

1:36:35and to count the votes.

1:36:35And they came out and they reported the results

1:36:37as a particular result.

1:36:39And you have no really further insight other than that.

1:36:43That can be a difficult pill to swallow, if that makes sense.

1:36:49Yes, thanks.

1:36:50And to the mayor, do you think that any company that's

1:36:54running an online voting software has a vested interest

1:36:58in their software being secure because it

1:37:00is their livelihood?

1:37:05Yeah, of course.

1:37:07And so yeah, these organizations, obviously,

1:37:09reputation matters a lot in cybersecurity.

1:37:12And so a cybersecurity incident would

1:37:15cause reputational damage to organizations.

1:37:18And so to an extent, I would say, yes, organizations,

1:37:22they certainly have a vested interest to not appear

1:37:25to have cybersecurity vulnerabilities.

1:37:28I will say, though, that we have incidents happen often

1:37:31in Ontario, despite this.

1:37:33And so we've seen outages of the voting systems, not just

1:37:38in 2018, but in 2022 as well, where voters were unable to cast

1:37:42votes and had to wait until later to cast a vote.

1:37:46Now, that's presumably an outage that

1:37:48was occurred not through malicious intent,

1:37:50but just through an accident.

1:37:52But yeah, these sorts of incidents

1:37:57do happen in Ontario.

1:38:00And that's certainly a risk.

1:38:04Thank you.

1:38:05And to the mayor, so an issue like an outage and server

1:38:10capacity, that could be mitigated through having

1:38:13process like advanced voting only so you have multiple days

1:38:16just in case of an issue like that, correct?

1:38:19I mean, mitigation, I would say that could be considered

1:38:26a mitigation if you're not, if you're

1:38:28spreading voting over a longer period of time.

1:38:31Yeah, I suppose.

1:38:34But there are numerous other risks

1:38:36when it comes to online elections.

1:38:39Great.

1:38:40Thank you very much for your time.

1:38:41I don't see anybody else.

1:38:47So thank you again, I believe.

1:38:50Let me move this out of the way.

1:38:52James, thank you very much for joining us and have a good night.

1:38:56Thanks for having me.

1:38:59Cameron Shelley is next and is in person.

1:39:05Come on down, thank you.

1:39:14And when the green light goes on there,

1:39:16you can go ahead and start.

1:39:18All right, which green light?

1:39:22Oh, OK, thank you.

1:39:24Thank you, Mr. Mayor and the members of the council.

1:39:26I'm a lecturer at the Center for Society, Technology,

1:39:29and Values in the Systems, Design, Engineering

1:39:31Department of the University of Waterloo.

1:39:33I have a master's degree in computer science

1:39:35with a concentration in artificial intelligence

1:39:37from the University of Waterloo.

1:39:39My PhD is in philosophy with a concentration

1:39:41in cognitive science also from the University of Waterloo.

1:39:45At the center, I research and teach courses

1:39:47in social aspects of technology and technological change.

1:39:51My interest in the e-voting stems from the fact

1:39:53that it is a great case study of the issues that arise

1:39:56in my research and courses that I teach.

1:39:59Let me briefly explain why I believe e-voting is not appropriate

1:40:02for adoption at this time.

1:40:04E-voting is more accessible to voters

1:40:06for whom polling stations or paper ballots are not.

1:40:09Accessibility is also an important aspect of election integrity.

1:40:13If that were the only consideration, there would be little debate.

1:40:16E-voting is not likely to increase turnout.

1:40:19Figures compiled in 2022 for voter turnout

1:40:22and Ontario municipalities where e-voting had been used

1:40:25for at least two elections show an overall decrease in turnout.

1:40:30In 2019, a group of cybersecurity experts, including James's supervisor,

1:40:35examined the e-voting systems worldwide

1:40:37and revealed numerous and substantial cybersecurity failures

1:40:41which allow attackers to change election results surreptitiously.

1:40:45Their conclusion, quote,

1:40:47we do not know whether any paperless e-voting system

1:40:49will ever prove itself adequate for government elections.

1:40:52Thus far, none has.

1:40:54End quote.

1:40:56Some non-technical weaknesses in e-voting

1:40:58require little effort or expertise.

1:41:00So consider voter targeted phishing.

1:41:03Voters receive emails or text messages reminding them to vote

1:41:07and giving them a link to an official looking website.

1:41:11The site may simply dispose of the votes that voters think they have cast

1:41:16or it may apply login credentials

1:41:18that voters have been tricked into leaving

1:41:20but others impersonate them or vote in their place.

1:41:23No doubt you have encountered such messages yourselves.

1:41:26This attack is also similar to the one perpetrated by Michael Sona

1:41:30and Guelph in 2011 when he used a robo-calling machine

1:41:33to deliver deceptive messages to Guelph voters.

1:41:35Phishing messages can easily be applied for the same purpose.

1:41:39Artificial intelligence such as chatGPT has made such attacks even easier.

1:41:43This AI can help anyone to research and prepare this

1:41:46in other attacks step by step and assist with each step

1:41:50such as encoding an official looking website,

1:41:52which I tried myself.

1:41:54I invite you to have a go at that.

1:41:56E-voting also results in voter coercion and vote taking.

1:42:00In Ontario's 28 municipal elections,

1:42:02instances came to light of parents casting ballots on behalf of their children,

1:42:06spouses casting partners ballots,

1:42:08and even people gifting their voting credentials to others.

1:42:11As is the case with accessibility,

1:42:13this issue may affect a small number of voters,

1:42:15but remains a significant concern.

1:42:18As the staff report for whilst 2026 election points out,

1:42:21E-voting provides little to no verifiability,

1:42:24which we were just hearing more about.

1:42:26There is, quote, no external way to verify whether results reflect

1:42:32the proper majority of votes cast, votes are counted accurately,

1:42:35and only valid votes are counted and upheld.

1:42:39This inscrutability exists because providers of E-voting systems

1:42:42do not allow anyone to examine their code or oversee its performance.

1:42:46Essentially, E-voting operates in a black box,

1:42:49and voters have only the assurance of vendors

1:42:51that announced election results are accurate.

1:42:55So imagine that the city outsourced its paper balloting under these conditions.

1:43:00Contractors make records as voters bring ballots to polling stations.

1:43:04At the end of voting, they destroy the ballots,

1:43:07take their records into a private back room,

1:43:09then emerge and announce the winners and losers.

1:43:12They refuse to divulge how they calculated the results

1:43:15and refuse to allow anyone to examine their records.

1:43:18Also, since the original ballots were destroyed,

1:43:21no recount is possible.

1:43:23Such an arrangement would violate the Ontario Municipal Elections Act

1:43:26in numerous ways, clearly unacceptable.

1:43:29Why then is it okay if it's done over the internet?

1:43:33We have arrived in this strange place due to the inaction of the Government of Ontario.

1:43:37In 2012, after the Government abandoned its pilot project

1:43:40to explore E-voting in provincial elections due to the sorts of concerns

1:43:44that have been raised earlier,

1:43:46it inexplicably allowed municipalities to adopt E-voting

1:43:49without laying down any regulations, standards, or providing any support.

1:43:56Without the resources to deal properly with the challenges of E-voting,

1:44:00Ontario municipalities have adopted a mosaic of voting methods

1:44:03of varying levels of quality.

1:44:05This inconsistent situation is unfair to Ontarians

1:44:08and threatens to erode trust and engagement in municipal elections.

1:44:12So, instead of adding to the current mess and saddling well fights

1:44:16with an unacceptable remote voting method,

1:44:18the city should be advocating for its residents

1:44:20and demanding that the provincial government get off its butt

1:44:23when it comes to E-voting adoption.

1:44:26All right, thank you so much.

1:44:28And I have a question for you from Councillor Kate.

1:44:32Thank you.

1:44:33Thank you very much for your delegation, Mr. Shelley.

1:44:36So, you work for the University of Waterloo, correct?

1:44:41Correct.

1:44:43Thank you.

1:44:44Through the mayor, my understanding is that University of Waterloo

1:44:47has a pretty fantastic computer science program,

1:44:50like very renowned.

1:44:54Yes.

1:44:55University of Waterloo uses online voting.

1:44:57They use simply voting.

1:44:59Can you explain why they chose that for the University?

1:45:03I wasn't privy to that.

1:45:05I know I use online voting all the time.

1:45:07I'm not sure if it's simply voting.

1:45:10You know, we have department meetings and faculty meetings,

1:45:13council meetings and some various sorts,

1:45:15and we have different tools that we use.

1:45:18But the, I mean, that's all right in part

1:45:20because our standards are very low.

1:45:23You know, we would otherwise just be sitting in the same room

1:45:25and having a show of hands.

1:45:27So, it's not, we're not particularly choosing when it comes

1:45:30to e-voting within the faculty meetings and that sort of thing.

1:45:37It was not just for faculty voting.

1:45:39It was for, it's what I saw on the University website.

1:45:42But so you're not, you're not aware of why they chose that system.

1:45:46No, I'm not privy to that information.

1:45:48I wasn't part of the selection process.

1:45:50Okay.

1:45:51Thank you very much.

1:45:53And Councillor Alton, then Busatil.

1:45:56Thank you, Mr. Mayor, through you to the delegate.

1:45:59The fundamental issue that we're dealing with here is accessibility

1:46:02for those that have difficulty voting.

1:46:05I'm wondering if you could please outline what you would consider

1:46:08to be a safe and secure system because I've heard you talk about

1:46:12your concerns about e-voting as that.

1:46:15What do you think would work?

1:46:18I don't have a particular recommendation in mind.

1:46:21I think as I said in my delegation,

1:46:23I think the appropriate system would be the one that meets

1:46:25an appropriate set of standards.

1:46:27And those that would be as Mr. Bernay outlined,

1:46:31validated by an appropriate validation authority.

1:46:34So whatever, whatever standards, you know,

1:46:37an appropriate process arrives at and are enforced,

1:46:43if you like, by an appropriate body,

1:46:45I think that would be the standard to go with.

1:46:47Thank you so much, Councillor Busuttil.

1:46:52Mayor, thank you Cameron.

1:46:56I think Councillor Allt asked my question.

1:46:59You started your presentation with at this time.

1:47:02And so my question, but I think you gave the answer to Councillor

1:47:07Ault is about standards independent, you know,

1:47:10having regulations and so on.

1:47:12Can you expand a little bit more or perhaps?

1:47:17On the standards themselves?

1:47:19No, at this time, what you're presenting is that not for this

1:47:25municipal election, is it, you know,

1:47:28never, is it next election?

1:47:30What does at this time, are we close,

1:47:33is it some indication of that?

1:47:36Yeah, thank you for that question.

1:47:39Yes, my answer is the time when an appropriate process has

1:47:44concluded.

1:47:45So when I, as James Bernay pointed out,

1:47:48when you look abroad at the different processes that

1:47:51governments had engaged in, so Switzerland was an example

1:47:55that he used.

1:47:56I mean, Estonia would be another one.

1:47:58Those countries have engaged at a high level and with

1:48:02broad popular engagement, engagement of cybersecurity

1:48:06experts, engagement of the various people who would be

1:48:09served and maybe put at risk by voting systems.

1:48:14And over the years have developed something that,

1:48:17or are developing something that they can all live with.

1:48:20So it makes the trade-offs that they're all happy with.

1:48:24You know, when I look back at historic,

1:48:26I mean, that's how we got out, in the paper balloting system

1:48:29we have now.

1:48:30It wasn't something that appeared overnight.

1:48:32It was developed over a period and in the light of problems

1:48:35with previous voting methods, such as the show of hands,

1:48:38that was very popular back in the day.

1:48:41And so those security mechanisms that we have with paper

1:48:44balloting were kind of evolved over a process based on

1:48:48previous, you know, all of the previous systems.

1:48:51I would expect the next round of technological change would

1:48:55look similar if we were done sort of on a broad basis

1:49:00and with appropriate resources.

1:49:03Thank you.

1:49:04That's all I think.

1:49:05I'd be happy if e-voting happened if it were,

1:49:08you know, done in that manner.

1:49:11Thank you.

1:49:13Great.

1:49:14Thank you.

1:49:15And we're going back over to Councillor O'Rourke, please.

1:49:18Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

1:49:19Mayor Guthrie, through you to Dr. Shelley.

1:49:21So Guelph had online voting for advanced polls in 2014.

1:49:26And so some people say to me, well, we did it before.

1:49:29And so why can't we do it now?

1:49:31And so I'm wondering if you could describe,

1:49:34is the environment different?

1:49:37Is there more fishing, et cetera?

1:49:40So can you help me understand if the context has changed?

1:49:43Oh, well, since 2014.

1:49:46So I don't know.

1:49:48Maybe there's two parts to that question.

1:49:50If I understand it, one is why has voter turnout decreased

1:49:55since that time?

1:49:57I mean, my understanding and I can't correct me if I'm wrong,

1:50:01the 2014 election was kind of the urban con election.

1:50:05And my recollection is that that figured very, very well.

1:50:10And so voters are quite motivated to turn out

1:50:12because there was what's called a ballot issue.

1:50:15So they came to throw the bums out and they did so.

1:50:20So that's maybe one reason why 2014 was kind of a peak.

1:50:25And I don't know that has much to do with the e-voting.

1:50:28As far as the risks are concerned, I think there are a number of things.

1:50:33I'm not an expert on the amount of fishing.

1:50:36But the news is always full of more fishing attacks.

1:50:42The Toronto Library had to close down

1:50:45and still recovering from a cybersecurity breach

1:50:48that was a result of a fishing attack.

1:50:50I think London drugs is still recovering from something like that.

1:50:54There's no shortage of it.

1:50:57And unfortunately, I think that as I mentioned in my spiel,

1:51:02that artificial intelligence language models and so forth

1:51:05are simply making the process easier.

1:51:07And I read this from other researchers all the time.

1:51:10And I think that's why I'm trying to make the process

1:51:13of sort of hooking people in, constructing fishing messages,

1:51:16the kinds of things that people will visit and so forth.

1:51:19So it is expected to get worse according to those sources.

1:51:24So that part of the scene certainly isn't promising.

1:51:28Okay, thanks.

1:51:34Okay, I'm choosing not to respond to why I vote that 2014 election.

1:51:40Other than to say it wasn't people getting thrown out,

1:51:43but it was a good thing to see.

1:51:45And there was good people running.

1:51:47And all candidates.

1:51:49So with that, there's no more questions.

1:51:51And so I will say thank you.

1:51:53And thank you.

1:51:55Appreciate it.

1:51:56Okay, next is Ann Grzewski-Caulie.

1:52:01I see you, Ann.

1:52:03And thank you for coming.

1:52:04Welcome.

1:52:19Welcome again.

1:52:20And nice to see you.

1:52:21Thank you for coming.

1:52:22And you have up to five minutes if you need it.

1:52:24Go right ahead.

1:52:25Thanks for coming.

1:52:26Thank you.

1:52:28Thank you.

1:52:29Thank you.

1:52:30All right, thank you.

1:52:31Any councillors, staff, and citizens of Guelph,

1:52:35I am concerned about our democracy,

1:52:39especially when a presidential candidate next door to us has

1:52:43spoken publicly of weaponizing the justice system to punish his

1:52:46political foes.

1:52:50And what happens in the U.S.

1:52:52use of internet voting at this time could put a risk or ability to verify the voting

1:52:59intentions of voters. With online voting in a tight race between candidates where a recount

1:53:05would be necessitated, it would be impossible to verify the results because there's no paper

1:53:11ballots to actually look at and ascertain a voter's intention. Election results that

1:53:18cannot be scrutineered puts at risk democratic elections. In an election with paper ballots,

1:53:26all eyes on the ballot can discern voter intentions because you can have a candidate's

1:53:32scrutineers looking physically at the ballots themselves which have to be agreed upon by

1:53:39all persons witnessing the count. Internet voting eliminates a candidate or their representatives

1:53:46from testing the process. This is a grave danger. If you think that no one would be

1:53:54interested in rigging or interfering illegally in a Gulf election, I urge you to think again.

1:54:00I have seen up close how large boulevard election signs which is a candidate's advertising

1:54:07has been disappeared the night before voting day when placement has been within legal limits

1:54:13in a systematized operation. We all know Guelph was ground zero for the largest election

1:54:19interference crime in Canadian history whereby rotors were falsely directed to non-existent

1:54:25voting stations using the National Conservative Database which happened across the country and

1:54:30only one person faced conviction for. Perhaps you might recall how women candidates in the

1:54:362014 municipal election faced attacks on them that ended up with the women candidates

1:54:42coalescing together to face the misogyny that they were subjected to. Politics in Guelph has a

1:54:50considerable history of viciousness. Allowing unverifiable voting that there is no recourse

1:54:58to get at the truth of a voter's intention would be the icing on this already combative keg.

1:55:04My family has lived experience supporting a disabled person. My son of flight risk

1:55:10requires supervision at the polling station. There is a protocol in place for family and friends

1:55:16supporting disabled persons that need assistance in the voting booth in these specialized circumstances.

1:55:22Said supports are required to swear an oath under which the ballot must be marked according to the

1:55:29elector's wishes. I have taken this oath in multiple municipal elections in which I am held

1:55:36to uphold the secrecy of the ballot. No one can go behind the screen to observe someone's vote

1:55:43except in these exceptional circumstances. And after the person votes the ballot is stuck in a

1:55:49privacy folder. My son then hands the file to the staff person where he is able to see it go into

1:55:56the tabulating machine. And when I vote he is supervised by a staffer because of his flight

1:56:02risk behavior. There has never been any barrier to him accessing the voting system. Staff have

1:56:09always been accommodating to his needs informed and dispersed their duties professionally.

1:56:15I have the fullest confidence in the staff to accommodate my disabled son's right to vote.

1:56:21And he has always been treated with utmost respect as a citizen and as a voter.

1:56:29We need to continue working to accommodate fully the spectrum of needs of disabled persons

1:56:36so they can exercise their voting rights. But I would caution against without compromising the

1:56:42security of the vote and putting the election at risk. Internet voting at this time would make

1:56:48everyone's vote insecure. Please do not adopt internet voting until such time as ballots can

1:56:56be scrutinized and verified. Thank you. Thank you, Ann. Is there any follow-up questions for Ann?

1:57:04Okay, yeah, Councillor Caton, please. Thank you. Through you, Mr. Mayor. So, Ms.

1:57:12Kazurski-Caulie, I know that you have an association with the NDP. Do you know that we

1:57:18were aware that the NDP uses online voting, they use the simply voting system, the same one that

1:57:22University of Waterloo uses? Yes. Yes? Through the Mayor, do you feel that the NDP's elections have

1:57:30been compromised? Yes, they were. In fact, they were compromised at the 2011 Federal Leadership

1:57:36Convention, which I attended in Toronto, and it disrupted voting on that voting day for a

1:57:42significant period of time. So, and as I understand, the culprit was never or culprits were never caught.

1:57:51I've also seen in the previous, the following Federal Leadership Convention, where, yes,

1:57:58people were given creds to vote at home online. And I was actually kind of stunned because I thought

1:58:06that that would increase voters turnout. And I was stunned that only half the voters who could have

1:58:12voted in that election and very handily and very easily failed to do so. Through the Mayor. So,

1:58:22simply voting wasn't the system that was being used in 2011, though, correct? Yes, the one in 2011.

1:58:30Though not the one that they're currently using. I assume that you would not stick with a system

1:58:33if it was. I couldn't answer that question for you. But I do know that the labor labor unions

1:58:42have, are resorting now to doing their elections by mail ballot because of the concerns the labor

1:58:50unions have around online voting. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you, Anne. Appreciate your time.

1:59:00Thank you very much. That's it. Thank you. Next, everybody. Okay, Mike is going to be joining us by

1:59:13video. Now, I happened to know Mike and I've never tried Mike. I don't know if you're going to join

1:59:21us here. Ben, you guys hear me? Yes. Mike, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you to help me with your

1:59:29last name because I don't want to be embarrassed. Can, how do you say your last name, Mike? I've

1:59:35never tried it. Ashkoui. Okay. Thank you. I was close, but I'm glad I didn't try it.

1:59:43So thank you, Mike, for, for joining us. Did you want to have yourself on video too, or are you

1:59:49just going to do audio? I'm just going to do audio as I don't have a camera currently set up.

1:59:53Yeah, no, no problem. Just wanted to make sure. I was providing that option for you. Okay, so

1:59:58I'll turn it over to you, Mike. You have up to five minutes and go right ahead. Okay, perfect. Well,

2:00:02I don't have all the technical expertise that some of the previous delegates have. I can only speak

2:00:08to my lived experience as a disabled person. I'm a fairly well known around Guelph, always driving

2:00:16around in my wheelchair, but I wasn't always as mobile once upon a time, especially after my

2:00:23amputation that happened to me back in 2017. Online voting to me would be extremely accessible,

2:00:32particularly with my particular disability. There are times where I simply can't get outside,

2:00:39either due to sometimes wheelchair malfunction. Other times I just can't do it due to

2:00:46medical reasons of various kind of natures. So having an accessible, easily reachable service,

2:00:54such as online voting, would allow me to participate in the democratic process in a,

2:00:59in a manner that works for me. And I was thinking about some other members of my family

2:01:07that would find this easily accessible and encourage them to participate in the democratic

2:01:13process. Some of them suffer from several disabilities that are mental that prove that

2:01:20prevent them from going to crowded places, like they may be agoraphobic, or they have other

2:01:28issues such as that where they just simply don't like to be around people. And they trust in the

2:01:34process enough that they feel their vote is being counted. They feel that their vote being seen

2:01:41because they trust the people putting together the elections enough that they're willing to say,

2:01:45I'm willing to put forward my vote and my choice to this particular election. And like I said,

2:01:53I don't have the technical expertise to kind of do this. And I can understand, yeah, there could be

2:01:58some bad actors in municipal elections, but I'd like to think that the city, the municipality,

2:02:08has done their due diligence to prevent that from happening, that my vote will be safe,

2:02:15my vote will be secure, and that my participation in the democratic process matters. Because

2:02:22I like to think that you and everybody else is doing everything possible to make sure that my

2:02:28voice is heard, that I am allowed to do my democratic duty to elect those who represent

2:02:35me in the best possible manner, however, that may be accessible to me. And I really hope council

2:02:44will stick with their decision to allow online voting in some capacity, even if it was only for

2:02:50advanced polls. That certainly helps me, it would certainly help other members of my disabled

2:02:56community and my disabled family, because it's just, it works for us. And I know there are other

2:03:02members in the disabled community from the city that pretty much feel the exact same. And I hope

2:03:10when other members of the disabled community speak up, they'll share similar thoughts. But if they

2:03:15don't, I completely understand as we have heard from delegates, you do have superior technical

2:03:21knowledge, but I don't think our lived experience should be discounted as well. I guess with all

2:03:28that being said, I can take any questions. Great, thank you for joining us in your presentation.

2:03:36Let me see, I don't think I see any hands up right now, Mike. So, yeah, you are good. Thank

2:03:42you for joining us. Thank you guys. Take care. Take care. Susan Watson is here, is coming to the

2:03:50podium and Jennifer Cameron is in the wings, you're next after Susan. And you can start whenever

2:04:12you're ready. Right up first. Thanks so much. So I would, Mayor Guthrie, members of council,

2:04:21I'd like to try and address some of the deficits and emissions and information shared with you via

2:04:26the staff report and Arlie at the committee of the whole meeting. I am completely in support of

2:04:31the recommendations of the staff report. However, there is a very serious, though I'm sure, unintended

2:04:37omission in the staff report. Staff writes there are no proven instances of an internet voting

2:04:43system being hacked or tampered. In fact, this is not actually true. And I'm going to share five

2:04:50established cases of hacking and tampering with you that that happen to be ones I personally know

2:04:54about. Okay, next slide. It's not advancing. Okay, so I press again. If this clock could be stopped,

2:05:12I'd be appreciative. Okay. Okay, I think it's more than 10 seconds. Can you play? So I press play.

2:05:29Computer security problems affect everyone. Problems like internet voting and internet

2:05:34censorship go to the very root of what makes democracy work. We investigate how they could

2:05:41be attacked and how we're going to defend them. In 2010, Washington DC held a pilot of a new

2:05:53internet voting system. They invited us and other members of the public to try to hack in. Within 48

2:05:59hours of the start of the test, we had complete control over their voting servers and were able to

2:06:05change all the votes. We even rigged the system to play the Michigan fight song every time somebody

2:06:11voted. And as a result, Washington DC decided not to use it in its upcoming election.

2:06:19So that's actually, yeah, one of the most famous hacks. And if it went by fast, I want to make sure

2:06:25that you heard that within 48 hours, Alex Halderman and his team had complete control over the

2:06:32election servers and were able to change all of the votes undetected. Another hack that took place

2:06:39close to home in our own community was at the University of Guelph. When some students went to

2:06:45vote, the system told them that they had already voted when they hadn't. An investigation actually

2:06:50did reveal serious security oversights. So that election was canceled and the whole thing had to

2:06:56be reorganized in person with paper ballots. In Alberta, during the United Conservative Party

2:07:03leadership vote, there were such serious irregularities that a criminal investigation was launched.

2:07:08That election was run by Intellivote, who is one of the vendors who provides internet voting in

2:07:13Ontario municipal elections. Police found evidence of suspicious votes but weren't able to amass

2:07:19enough evidence to lay charges. If you think that just having advanced internet voting will

2:07:25magically solve bandwidth throttling issues, perhaps you haven't heard of something called a

2:07:30distributed denial of service or DOS attack. And that was what Anne was referring to in 2012,

2:07:37when that election was the target of a malicious DOS attack. And that particular election was run

2:07:43by Cytal, the vendor who's now declaring bankruptcy. Probably a better known DOS attack was the

2:07:50takedown of the grade 10 literacy exam in 2016. The perpetrator was never court caught and experts

2:07:57observed that it could have been orchestrated by a teenager in a basement. Lastly, many of you will

2:08:03remember the core premise of the Robocall crime in 2012, misdirecting people to a non-existent

2:08:09or incorrect polling station. The potential for fishing fraud combined with internet voting and

2:08:14the advent of AI is truly disturbing. In 2014, the City of Sudbury put out an advisory warning of

2:08:21copycat fake voting sites. Luckily, no pin numbers were stolen because the creator of the site was

2:08:28trying to make a point about election vulnerability, not steal votes. And so these are just five

2:08:34examples of successful hacking and tampering that I happen to know about. My concern is, in the staff

2:08:41report, if they put likelihood of a malicious attempt as rare or actually I think it was too

2:08:50unlikely, it was done considering that there were no known cases of this when in fact they are.

2:08:58And these are just the ones that I know of and Mr. Brude was referring to others.

2:09:04I'd like to point out that despite numerous claims made about the security and safety of

2:09:09internet voting by people who are advocating for it, no supporting data or peer reviewed research

2:09:16has been provided by advocates of this position, either to you or to the public for review on the

2:09:22public record. And I was also unable to find anything in the materials provided by the Accessibility

2:09:28Advisory Committee. And while reference was made to experts, the only person,

2:09:33expert in favor of internet voting publicly identified to date is Ms. Root. And unfortunately,

2:09:39she appears to be at odds with many other experts in the field. Internet voting is not ready for

2:09:45prime time. We need to find ways to make voting accessible to everyone without compromising the

2:09:52integrity of our elections and local democracy. Great. Thank you for your presentation. And

2:09:58is there any questions as a follow up? Hearing and seeing none. Thank you so much. Thank you.

2:10:05Jennifer Cameron, you were in the wings. Welcome. And we'll accommodate you as you come down there.

2:10:12No problem. And then Meg Harding is going to be in the wings, but on video has our next guest.

2:10:42Mr. Mayor and Councillors, thank you. I'm a long time resident of Guelph and have multiple

2:10:49disabling conditions which make life more challenging. My adulthood children do as well.

2:10:56Current statistics point out that at some point in our lives, 80% of us may end up in a position

2:11:02of experiencing life with a disability. If you look around the room, that's a lot of people.

2:11:10This is our daily experience. Over the years, our family has met with numerous challenges when

2:11:18it comes to voting. Sadly, of the three levels of government we vote for, the municipal elections

2:11:27are always and have always been the most difficult to access. This past election was no exception.

2:11:40Mail and ballots are a good idea, but did not actually allow my adult children to vote independently.

2:11:50The envelope itself had latex in the seal. The enclosed envelope was in direct contact

2:11:58with the ballot, so the ballot itself was latex contaminated. So they were not able to be independent.

2:12:12In the last election, I went to a polling station, which is very difficult to access due to construction

2:12:21and closed sidewalks. When I finally made it into the building, election staff had no idea

2:12:29that there were problems outside. I'm not sure how they accessed the building,

2:12:35but we certainly had problems. There was such a backlog of people waiting to vote that we'd

2:12:42stand around for more than 30 minutes waiting for an opportunity to vote. There were no accommodations

2:12:51for voters with physical disabilities that were left standing for so long.

2:12:55As a person with mobility challenges, I found this unnecessarily painful,

2:13:03and the whole experience very frustrating. Everything should have been planned better.

2:13:10I won't go into all the violations of the Antirians with Disabilities Act. There were many,

2:13:18but I will say that my frustration peaked to the point that I actually started the process

2:13:25and considered filing a complaint with the Human Rights Commission. If it happens again,

2:13:32I won't hesitate to follow through. Before the last election, the City Council voted to wait

2:13:40on established accessible voting measures, claiming there wasn't time to do so. I was encouraged

2:13:48when I heard that the vote had gone through. I was very disappointed to learn that it was back

2:13:54for further debate. In 2014, the last time that our City offered accessible voting,

2:14:04all of our family was able to vote almost independently. This hasn't been true since.

2:14:13Voter turnout at elections has been at an all-time low when we need every eligible voter

2:14:20participating. Residents of Guelph living with disabilities deserve, want, and need accessible

2:14:29voting now. Not another four years down the road, the City Council gets around to addressing

2:14:37accessibility. Please don't delay inclusive accessible voting again.

2:14:46Great. Thank you, Jennifer, for coming. Let me see if there's a follow-up question for you.

2:14:51Looks like Councillor Allt. Go right ahead.

2:14:54Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor. Through you to Ms. Cameron. Ms. Cameron, I'm very sorry for the

2:14:59difficulties that you've experienced municipally, provincially, and federally. I have two questions.

2:15:04The first one is why is the municipal election so much more difficult as you had identified?

2:15:12Because the clerks in charge of the process federally and provincially have processes in place

2:15:20and are quick to act to accommodate people with different needs. I have not ever had that experience

2:15:28with the City of Guelph. Thank you. And follow-up, what accommodations would you like to have for those

2:15:35with disabilities who do wish to cast a paper ballot? What suggestions could you offer?

2:15:43Well, you're looking at many disabilities. My neighbour's legally blind. For her, she doesn't

2:15:50have the assurance when she goes to vote. For us, it's getting safely into a building

2:15:58where voting happens and where the ballot turn kept or supplies kept with elastics around them.

2:16:08The severity of my kids' allergies is such that a stretched elastic across the room

2:16:13and they'll experience anaphylaxis. Okay. So what I'm hearing you say, be mindful to environmental

2:16:19sensitivities and also make certain that buildings actually are accessible? Yes. Thank you.

2:16:28And Councillor Coller is next. Thank you through your worship to Ms Cameron.

2:16:34Thank you for taking the time to delegate today. What we've heard from the other delegates that

2:16:39are sharing concerns are talking about the risk for the elections to be tampered with if they're

2:16:45held online. What do you think about that? What are your thoughts on the risk versus the benefits?

2:16:52I am not personally qualified to make decisions or recommendations on that. For me personally,

2:17:00I think that online voting would be the most accessible for our family and for many others.

2:17:09It would also allow people with disabilities to use their own technology at home without the city

2:17:17having to provide multiple types of technology to accommodate people that need to vote.

2:17:23Okay. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. Thank you, Worship.

2:17:27Thank you, Councillor. And that's it. And so thank you so much for joining us tonight.

2:17:31Thanks for your presentation. All right. Meg Harding is next.

2:17:40And then in the wings we have by telephone, it would be Pia Mucal. I hope I'm saying that name

2:17:47right. But Meg Harding, I think I see you on camera there. Did you want to try your audio?

2:17:55Yeah, you're coming through great. Thank you so much. Welcome. And I'll turn it over to you.

2:17:59You go right ahead. Thank you so much, everyone. Hi, my name is Meg Harding. I am a digital

2:18:06accessibility specialist and I have worked in the field for almost a decade. I train people each

2:18:12and every day on the technical aspects of digital accessibility, as well as the social aspect of

2:18:18understanding disability and the human complexities around that. So I'm someone who advocates for

2:18:24disability rights as an accessibility professional. And I am also a disabled person myself. So I

2:18:32really applauded our city when I heard that online voting was coming back. And I'm here today to urge

2:18:38you to stand by that decision that was made earlier in the month and to keep the accessible

2:18:44option available to people who need it. It's not about taking away any preferred method of existing

2:18:50voting. Anyone who isn't comfortable enough with technology or anyone who prefers an in-person

2:18:57experience still has that option of a physical voting location with in-person volunteers. But

2:19:02to pass a vote earlier in the month that gave disabled people an option to vote and now to say

2:19:08that maybe we don't want it, that is taking away a voting method from disabled people in our city.

2:19:15I work with online digital accessibility each and every day. And one of the biggest things to

2:19:21understand about people who require accessible solutions is that their digital assistive technology

2:19:27that they use is unique and tailored to them. So some people need to use that. Some people can't

2:19:36leave their homes, as was mentioned before. Some people who do manage to get to a voting station

2:19:42might have to rely on the volunteers that they don't know. I know that everyone is trained at

2:19:48the stations, but for example, a blind person, someone with low literacy, someone who can't read

2:19:55or see because of cognitive barriers, they have to rely on people that they don't know

2:20:00at a physical station. And there's no way for them to verify that their ballot has been filled

2:20:06out how they've specified, that it's been placed where it needs to be placed. And we still use

2:20:12this method. So on an issue like an outage, for example, we really can't separate or I don't think

2:20:20we should separate digital from physical in that case, in my opinion. Historically, as was just

2:20:28mentioned, our physical voting stations that advertise as accessible physical areas have not

2:20:35been. And we still use this method. So there's no secure guarantee for disabled people using an

2:20:44in-person voting station, an online option for people to use their own assistive tools that

2:20:51have been tailored to them that are familiar to them, that are comfortable to them is hugely important.

2:20:57It's an accessible option that gives disabled people the dignity, the independence and the equity

2:21:04that abled people have to vote, which is our right as disabled people who cannot get to a physical

2:21:12station to vote. Disabled people in our city, if memory serves a number over probably 30,000,

2:21:20and we don't want to be ignored, we don't want to be forgotten, we don't want to be overlooked,

2:21:29and we're tired. If we were the first place to try this or the only ones to be implementing

2:21:37this option, I would absolutely understand the reservations in moving forward with something

2:21:42like this, but we're not. Many other places do this and do it successfully and securely.

2:21:50I really do hope that Guelph can move forward with this option for the sake of those

2:21:56who are really going to benefit from it and who need it. And that's all I have. Thank you.

2:22:05Thank you, Meg. Thank you so much for joining us in your presentation. Let me see if there's a

2:22:10follow-up for you as well. There isn't, but thank you for sticking around and telling us your

2:22:17perspective. Thank you so much. Okay, Pia is next by telephone, and then in the wings is Ron East,

2:22:27who I saw walking earlier. So thank you, Ron. Pia is, are you able to hear me? It's Mayor Guthrie.

2:22:40And to unmute your phone just to make sure, it's star six. Hi, Pia. It's Mayor Guthrie. Can you hear

2:22:58me okay? And again, if you can hear me, you just got to hit star and then the number six to unmute.

2:23:09Good evening. Good evening. This is Pia Mucciola. Can you hear me?

2:23:13Yep, you're coming through great. Thank you very much for joining us. I'll turn it over to you for

2:23:18your presentation. Go right ahead. Thank you very much. Good evening, Mayor Guthrie, members of council

2:23:24and fellow Guelphites. Tissions around internet voting at City Council seem to be coming down to

2:23:30risk assessments and risk problems. The ranking of working, sorry, the ranking of internet voting

2:23:36as high risk compared to other methods is being questioned by proponents of internet voting.

2:23:42I'd like to comment on this particular aspect of the file because my work involves constant

2:23:46risk and threat monitoring. I am a scientist working for the federal public health and I monitor the

2:23:52emergency spread and risk of infectious diseases. At work, one method we use to determine the risk

2:23:57of diseases is by assessing the likelihood of their occurrence and the impact of that particular

2:24:03occurrence. When you look at the City of Guelphs Enterprise Risk Management framework, they are

2:24:08making assessments based on these same two factors. Impact, which is assessed on a scale of one to four

2:24:16from minor impact to catastrophic impact and likelihood, which is assessed on a scale of one

2:24:21to five from very to almost certain. A number of people have pointed out that the electoral

2:24:27crimes and fraud can occur with all methods of voting, but the risk assessment is a result of

2:24:32the interaction of these two factors, the impact and likelihood. Attempting to alter the outcome

2:24:38of the election by manipulating vote or the in-person voting process involves a high degree

2:24:43of risk for the perpetrators. It's like someone doing a break and enter on my house versus some

2:24:49variation of online financial fraud, which has very low risk for the perpetrator. Especially with

2:24:55our optical scanners, it would be challenging if not impossible to feed extra ballots to the machines

2:25:02without other people in the room noticing. Even if you successfully stuffed one ballot box or added

2:25:07ballots to one voting tabulator, there would still be 45 other tabulators across the city

2:25:12unaffected. It would require a lot of coordination and a lot of people to carry out this kind of

2:25:18crime on a large scale. Internet voting has a single point of failure or vulnerability. It just

2:25:24takes one person anywhere in the world to hack in and change the total vote unnoticed. Or a

2:25:31fishing fraud, which has been mentioned earlier, using hacked-faced sites and could encourage hundreds

2:25:36of people to vote at fake voting sites, preventing their legitimate vote and harvesting their pin

2:25:42numbers. Internet voting allows these kinds of crimes to happen at scale in a way that analog

2:25:47voting does not. The impact, in my opinion, has correctly been assessed as catastrophic by staff.

2:25:56And even with a situation like someone pouring into a ballot box, and I think this was mentioned

2:26:00at a committee meeting, at least you know you have a problem. The catch with Internet voting is that

2:26:05you may never know if a fraud has happened and there are no paper ballots to verify the results.

2:26:11My concern is that the likelihood of malicious actors posing as a security risk

2:26:15is actually underestimated. Staff only assign that risk a rating of two, meaning unlikely.

2:26:22In the context of the federal inquiry on foreign interference, I do find this rather astounding.

2:26:28The threat environment in terms of online fraud and hacks of all kinds of institutions,

2:26:34including a growing list of Ontario cities, is rapidly accelerating. Just raising that

2:26:40Internet voting malicious actor risk rating to three or somewhat likely would more accurately

2:26:47assess interference by a malicious actor as a high risk. Staff also give technical reliance

2:26:53outside of city control a high risk rating. That's based on both the catastrophic consequences

2:26:59as well as past experience. In their report, staff outlined how bandwidth throttling created

2:27:04problems in municipalities across the province in 2018 and 2022. So again, and again in my opinion,

2:27:11they have correctly assessed this as likely. If city engineers told that a bridge had multiple

2:27:18points of weakness in the infrastructure and was at risk of failure, you wouldn't say,

2:27:22sure, I can live with the risk, let's open the bridge. Likewise, our voting architecture is a

2:27:27kind of infrastructure. The experts are telling you that the infrastructure of internet voting

2:27:31is not safe. Please listen to them and make a decision that will protect the reliability

2:27:36and integrity of our municipal elections. As one last observation, I noted with interest that the

2:27:44city of Mississauga is only offering in person voting, vote by proxy, bedside voting and assistive

2:27:51devices for their upcoming mayoral and ward five by election on June 10th. And with that, close my

2:27:59delegation. Thank you, Pia. Thank you very much for your presentation to us. And I'm just looking

2:28:07around to see councillor Alp. Go ahead. Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie. Through you,

2:28:12Ms. Mousshell, I don't know if you're the correct person to ask this, but the question that came

2:28:17up for me, if there are resident viruses or trojans in a person's computer, iPad or whatever,

2:28:25do they pose a threat to internet voting or internet banking or anything internet?

2:28:33I don't know if I'm really qualified to answer that question, but I would say yes.

2:28:38Well, thank you for your candor because I certainly don't know. That's just, you know, my humble

2:28:46garden variety response. Not really knowing computers that well. Knowing infectious diseases,

2:28:53absolutely well, but just not those computer, how they interact with computers.

2:28:57We'll put you on the list for when that comes forward. If that, hopefully it doesn't.

2:29:04Hopefully it doesn't. Hopefully it doesn't. Yeah, we had enough of that already.

2:29:08I know. I know. You're totally right on that. Pia, thank you so much. I don't see any other

2:29:14questions. So thank you for joining us. Thank you. Take care. Ryan, come on forward. Thank you for

2:29:22being here. Lynn, you're in the wings. So the two of you can come one right after the other there.

2:29:35And welcome, Ryan. You just go right ahead whenever you're ready.

2:29:49Thank you, Mayor Guthrie, councillors, city staff and fellow Guelphites. Thank you for this opportunity.

2:29:58My presentation has a title. So it's a question. Is the tail wagging the dog?

2:30:11I attended the committee of the whole meeting on May 7th to listen to the discussion on voting

2:30:18for the upcoming election. I knew that the strong mayor's powers did not extend to voting practices.

2:30:27So I felt that this would be a lively, democratic discussion reminiscent of debates

2:30:34prior to provincial interference in our municipal affairs. The city clerk presented an excellent

2:30:42report and recommended that Guelph does not go ahead with internet voting in the upcoming election.

2:30:51His reasoning was compelling and deserved thoughtful consideration.

2:30:57Instead, this report was followed by another report from a spokesperson for the disabled community.

2:31:06In my view, this presentation was entirely dismissive of the clerk's recommendations

2:31:14and again, in my view, was riddled with inaccuracies, both with regard to the security of internet voting,

2:31:23as we have heard tonight, and the lack of security using paper balloting.

2:31:30Was the tail wagging the dog? The discussion that ensued, I felt,

2:31:37entirely dismissed the clerk's recommendations and was followed by a resolution

2:31:45to implement internet voting. I was shocked. I therefore, using my professorial research skills,

2:31:56proceeded to look deeper into the use of internet voting. I had the opportunity to talk to experts

2:32:04in the field of internet security. These individuals provide security systems to large

2:32:12international companies around the world. They said that the internet at this time is 90% safe.

2:32:24Attempting to get a higher level of security is both very difficult and very expensive.

2:32:31Would we use paper voting if there was a 10% chance that it could be tampered with?

2:32:40I think not. I do believe that internet voting will come, but until the Provincial Voting Act,

2:32:48enacted in 1995, is redrafted to include internet voting standards and a standardized system for

2:32:58voting via the internet is developed, we should not consider using this method of voting.

2:33:07When the discussion took place at council, methods of voting were referred to as alternatives.

2:33:15I believe that once the voting public realizes that internet voting is available,

2:33:23then this will be the primary method of voting, not an alternative, and it must be available

2:33:31to everyone. It is simply more convenient. Research into prior internet elections has shown that it

2:33:41will not in itself result in an increase in turnout. Actually, issues of importance to the

2:33:48electorate are the primary reason for increased turnout. Please take this opportunity to reconsider

2:33:56employing internet voting. It is, at this juncture, simply not safe enough. I am cognizant of the

2:34:06difficulties this will cause for disabled individuals, and I really feel very proud of the fact that

2:34:17people who are disabled are really trying to get out and vote. I think that is exciting.

2:34:25So, we must provide methods to assist everyone who needs it, but jeopardizing the entire election

2:34:33to accommodate these electors is not a viable solution. Thank you. Thank you, Ron. Let me see

2:34:43if there is a follow-up for you. There is not, but thank you again for your presentation. Lynn,

2:34:51Lynn Grist is next, and Dr. James Behr, I hope I am saying that right, is going to join us by video

2:35:03after Lynn. Welcome, Lynn. Thank you, and you can go ahead whenever you are ready. Okay.

2:35:29Does this work? Can you hear me? Okay, my Guthrie councillor, staff and fellow wealth

2:35:37citizenry, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you on this issue. There are other

2:35:44delegates who have spoken this evening who are experts in cyber security and will speak

2:35:50to issues related to internet voting. I have absolutely no experience in this area,

2:35:55and so rely on those experts to provide me and every other voting member of the public with

2:36:00advice on what is and what is not safe and secure in a voting system. Like most adults in 2024,

2:36:10I use the internet for a number of personal transactions. It is convenient and efficient,

2:36:16in spite of the fact that I am old. I am actually not in the 20th century. I am in the 21st. I am

2:36:2178, and yes, I can use a computer. However, there are a number of pieces of software I need to put

2:36:28in place to ensure that my system is not hacked by either mischievous or malicious actors, a personal

2:36:35computer cyber security system, and a firewall. My personal opinion is that we will eventually

2:36:43be able to cast our votes in elections at all levels, federal, provincial and municipal,

2:36:49on the internet. When our cyber experts are able to create and build systems which protect the

2:36:57safety and security of the ballot box, in order to do that, our governments need to put in place

2:37:04standards which any company wishing to deliver digital election services must meet. At this time,

2:37:12there are no standards. In fact, the legislation related to municipal voting has

2:37:18hadn't been updated since 1995. So I believe the first step would be for elected municipal

2:37:24officials like yourselves is to ask the provincial government to update the legislation.

2:37:31Once new legislation is in place, companies who wish to participate in elections would be able

2:37:36to develop software which could be independently assessed to ensure that it met those standards.

2:37:44In the meantime, however, I would suggest that our municipally elected politicians need to ensure

2:37:51three really important things. One, the safety and security of the ballot box. Two, accessibility

2:38:00for all eligible voters. And three, public trust in the voting system that is put in place. All three

2:38:09of these are important. However, it is the issue of trust that is critical in this discussion.

2:38:17At this time, we cannot be assured that online voting is safe and secure from tampering,

2:38:23which means that we would not be able to trust that the politicians who are elected are in fact

2:38:30the legitimate representatives of the community. If we do not trust those politicians as being our

2:38:37legitimate representatives of the community, how can we possibly trust that they will fairly represent

2:38:45the Guelph community? At this time, I would urge you not to vote for online voting until the major,

2:38:52until there are cyber security systems in place that will ensure that the voice of the electorate

2:38:59has truly and accurately been recorded. Thank you. Thank you, Lynn. And let me see if there's any

2:39:08questions. There is not. So thank you very much for your presentation and time as well.

2:39:14Dr. James Behr. Again, I'm sorry if I'm saying your last name wrong, James, is joining us by video.

2:39:26James Behr. Great. Well, come in. Thank you. We can hear and see you. So I'll turn it over to you.

2:39:32You go right ahead. Sure. Thanks so much. Members of the council, my name is James Behr.

2:39:41I had a different delegation prepared, but there have been some things said in some of the delegations

2:39:47against online voting that I feel like I should try to address. I've been following this issue

2:39:54for a number of years. I was extremely pleased with council's recent decision to approve online

2:40:00voting for the next municipal election per the satisfaction of city clerks. And I think that's

2:40:07a very important part of the motion as it was written. So we did hear in other delegations

2:40:16about hacking of a 15-year-old test trial. I guess to that I would say that was a good test.

2:40:25We should do those tests. Let's do those tests. If we stop here, we don't allow clerks the opportunity

2:40:34to do those tests. I don't believe we actually heard about a successful malicious interference

2:40:45using online voting in a municipal election. We also heard about election interference

2:40:53that happened with other types of voting methods that online voting would also possibly be susceptible

2:40:58to. And the takeaway there was that we should not get rid of those methods, but that we should have

2:41:04double standard for this second method of voting. We heard that many aspects, many other aspects of

2:41:11our lives are also susceptible to online hacking, but we continue to use these. And these are things

2:41:18that things we don't have control of. The motion has written, we have control of this. We can go

2:41:28and find and test if this is going to be possible. I guess my main thought kind of boils down to

2:41:42are we willing to actually, absolutely disenfranchise members of the disabled community

2:41:51by not offering online voting on chance, in my opinion, it's a small chance

2:42:00that others may be disenfranchised. Are we willing to actually do it to people?

2:42:05Now, I know Council and the clerk's office, they don't want to do that. No, they do not want to

2:42:09disenfranchise anyone. With how the motion is currently drafted, it allows clerks the opportunity

2:42:20to do their hardest to find a way to make online voting secure enough for our own standards.

2:42:30We have heard many times how there aren't currently set standards. To me, that's okay. We can make our

2:42:40own standards. And I believe the motion has written is that those standards, the standards that we

2:42:48come up with would have to be, clerks would have to be satisfied with. I've actually assisted someone

2:42:59with voting in the last 12 municipal election. They are a person that sometimes has trouble reading.

2:43:08They also have issues with their immune system. So to vote, I went with them and, excuse me,

2:43:20asked if we could have a ballot and vote outside. At no point was I asked to show any form of

2:43:27identification, take any oath, do anything other than show her where to mark the ballot for the

2:43:39person that they want. Now, I feel very, very honored to have someone that trusts me enough to do that.

2:43:48But it's not something that I feel like anyone should have to do. So I'm really hoping tonight

2:43:58that you all will uphold the motion as it is and allow clerks to at least try to find a way to

2:44:10allow the most people possible to vote. Thank you.

2:44:16Thank you so much, Dr. We appreciate your presentation. And let me see if there is a follow-up for you.

2:44:24Oh, yeah, we do. We have a councillor Richardson, please.

2:44:27Thank you, Mary Guthrie. And thank you for your delegation, Mr. Beard.

2:44:31You mentioned that we should be setting our own standards. Do you have a sense of what those would

2:44:37look like or what they would be or how we would go about doing that?

2:44:41I don't, but I believe we heard from our first speaker what those standards should be.

2:44:50And it sounds like there is actual guidelines on what these standards should be and what they

2:44:55should look like. It is not in legislation, but I don't see why we need legislation to tell us how

2:45:04to do this if we know what will be most likely to succeed. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Councillor.

2:45:16Seeing nothing more, I thank you so much for your delegation. And Richard Ensett is next also joining

2:45:28us by video. And then in the wings is Stan Kozak. I don't know if I saw Stan walk in or not. Yep,

2:45:35there you are. I'm eating my glasses, but there you are. Thank you. And so is Richard available

2:45:40to join us by video? I believe so. We both see and hear you. So thank you very much for joining

2:45:48us. I'll turn it over to you. Okay. Okay. My name is Richard Ensett. I live here in Guelph, obviously.

2:46:00I'm 78. My wife is 82. And so just to give you some reference to what I'm about to say,

2:46:09Mayor Guthrie, Councillors, City staff and fellow Guelph citizens, thank you for the opportunity

2:46:14to speak on this issue. I note that the Accessibility Advisory Committee provided input to

2:46:21Council during the Committee of the Whole meeting on February 6, 2024. The Chair of the Committee

2:46:28explained that the Committee was advocating on behalf of between one and 2% of the voting population

2:46:34of Guelph. The latest available figures from Elections Canada show that there are 107,980

2:46:42eligible voters in Guelph. So one to 2% is a sizeable number between 1079 and 2158 eligible voters.

2:46:52I am here to speak about another group of eligible voters who may also need special consideration

2:46:57with respect to voting in the upcoming 2026 municipal election, seniors. People over the age

2:47:05of 65 represent some 24% of the population of Guelph. The latest population figure show Guelph

2:47:12is having a population of 143,740. All seniors are voting age, so 34,498 people eligible to vote

2:47:20over the age of 65. The Clerk's Office did reach out to the Guelph Wellington Seniors Association

2:47:27with a membership of 2,000. I am here tonight to speak on issues which may affect the ability to vote

2:47:33of the other 32,498 seniors. We see that the number of voters in the Guelph is still

2:47:41We seniors are definitely not a homogeneous group. Some of us are fit and healthy, others may have

2:47:47mobility issues, a portion may have other disabilities, which are not necessarily related to the aging

2:47:54process. We live in a variety of situations. 862 live in long-term care facilities, the number is

2:48:02capped by the province. Others live in residential care facilities, there are no accurate numbers

2:48:08for this. However, Guelph was approximately 20 such facilities of varying sizes. There are no

2:48:14publicly available numbers available for this group of seniors, as some of the facilities are

2:48:20privately owned either for profit or non-profit, and this data is not shared. Since there are 34,498

2:48:28of us as of 2021, I believe it is safe to assume that most seniors live in their own homes,

2:48:35either owned or rented. So providing voting services that help to meet the needs of such a

2:48:40substantial portion of the voting population, I suggest, would be important to this council.

2:48:47All of them who vote will have experience with paper ballots and may well be able to continue

2:48:52to vote in person at their designated polling station. Some will have mobility issues and it

2:48:59will be important to ensure that all polling stations are accessible to those with physical

2:49:05mobility issues. Some may find it difficult to leave their homes, so making postal voting available

2:49:11to them would be a good option. I noticed at the committee of the whole meeting that the accessibility

2:49:17committee spokespeople mentioned that there was a problem with the glue used on the return envelopes

2:49:22sent out by the city in the last election. I would respectfully suggest that we either change the glue

2:49:29or make it clear to all postal vote recipients that water and a brush be used to close the return

2:49:34envelope. Others may not have access to a computer or be comfortable using a computer.

2:49:43It is important that council does not inadvertently disenfranchise this portion of the population

2:49:49by offering them a voting option that they either cannot or do not comfortably use. I am aware that

2:49:55there are concerns about the safety and security of internet voting, but do not have the technical

2:50:01expertise to comment on this matter in detail, except to say that the provincial and federal

2:50:07governments do not use internet voting at this time because their research indicates that they

2:50:12cannot guarantee the safety and security of the vote. I would respectfully ask council to refer

2:50:18this matter back to the city clerk and his staff who have so much skill and experience organizing

2:50:24and delivering voting options for the Guelph citizenry and have them to come back to council

2:50:30with suggestions to support voter turnout in this age cohort. Thank you very much.

2:50:38Thank you Richard. We appreciate your presentation and let me just see if there's a follow-up.

2:50:44And there is not, but thank you again and have a great night. Thank you very much and you too.

2:50:49Thanks. Take care. Stan is coming right up to the microphone here. Colin Perkins is going to

2:50:58be joining us by video after you stand. Welcome and I'll turn it over to you. Thank you very much

2:51:03mayor and council. As always thank you for your civic leadership. It's much appreciated.

2:51:10Let's take it as a given that we all want to increase voter participation and the question

2:51:17is how do we do that? I'm not in favor of internet voting. I don't think that the technology that is

2:51:26needed for security is able to prevent it from being corrupted. Our current methods of voting

2:51:36allow us to determine if there is electoral fraud or some influence that's occurring whereas

2:51:43internet voting does not. With paper ballots I've been a scrutinair. I've been able to watch

2:51:50the vote take place. I've been able to look at ballots to determine whether they're okay or not.

2:51:57I've seen something physical. In the voting process I can go into the private space,

2:52:03mark my ballot and then take it and see it put into the ballot box without any interference.

2:52:12It is a private vote. About 10 years ago I received one of the robo calls with the old

2:52:20technology that was trying to direct me to a different poll and maybe get me not so that

2:52:28I wouldn't vote. I could find out though quickly that that was incorrect and I could go to the right

2:52:36place. It was easy to figure out. The point of these examples is that they all have some physical

2:52:43observable check in place to ensure that voting is free, fair and uncorrupted. That's not possible

2:52:53with the internet. It's a black box. You don't understand it. I don't understand it. And the

2:53:01whole point is on whether people cite examples as to whether we've had fraud, we wouldn't know.

2:53:08We don't know whether it's occurred. It's so easy to get done just like money coming out of bank

2:53:14accounts which is happening all the time. Some noteworthy quotes from the gurus at Stanford.

2:53:22From the perspective of election trustworthiness, internet voting is a complete disaster. The whole

2:53:28goal of an election is to satisfy the people who lost the election, that they lost fair and square,

2:53:34and that the candidate who was elected is legitimate. From a 2022 review, academic review

2:53:42of electronic voting, the internet is unsuitable for transmitting ballots and currently there is no

2:53:47realistic mechanism to fully secure the casting of votes and tabulation of election results from

2:53:54cyber attacks. Computer engineering at Western University. Secure and verifiable internet voting

2:54:02remains one of the most challenging open problems of cyber security. Despite numerous potential

2:54:08social benefits, the technological risks are many and the democratic stakes remain high.

2:54:17So for voting safety, paper ballots are the gold standard. Let's keep it that way and let's find ways

2:54:24of getting as many people as possible using them. Finally, I note that your school board colleagues

2:54:32are not in favor of moving to internet voting and I also note that you are not legally required to

2:54:40consult them. But I'll paraphrase the biblical saying, do unto your school board colleagues as

2:54:48you would have the provincial government do unto you. You don't need to stoop to the level of

2:54:56disregard the provincial government has for municipalities. Show us a better way, take time

2:55:03to negotiate with our other elected officials. Thank you so much. Great, thank you for your

2:55:11presentation and let me see if there's a follow-up. There isn't, so thank you again. Thanks.

2:55:22Colin Perkins by video and then in the wings of the video is Scott Frederick. Colin,

2:55:33wondering if you can turn on your video for us. Perfect. Let me just see if we can hear you, Colin.

2:55:42Can you? Hello everyone, can you all hear me? Yeah, we can both see and hear you. Thank you for

2:55:47joining us. I'll turn it over to you and you can go right ahead. Excellent, thank you. Hello everyone,

2:55:53Mayor Guthrie, counselors, people of Guelph. Thank you very much for allowing me to delegate here

2:55:58today. My name is Colin Perkins. I'm a citizen of Guelph. I live here in the ward and I work

2:56:03downtown. I've been following this issue for several years now. In fact, I've delegated to

2:56:08council before in favor of online voting and the remote accessible vote by mail option in 2021.

2:56:15I was very excited and very grateful, therefore, to hear about the motion

2:56:19past this month to allow internet voting in the 2026 municipal elections. I have several friends

2:56:25in Guelph's disabled community. I'm grateful on their behalf that they will finally be able

2:56:30to feel that their rights and ability to vote will not be jeopardized. I'm grateful on my own

2:56:35behalf and on behalf of my friends and family who don't currently need accessible voting options,

2:56:39but might well one day. And I'm grateful on behalf of the city that I've always been proud of as a

2:56:44place committed to equity and justice. I would therefore like to urge council to fully ratify

2:56:50this motion and commit to putting the accessible online voting in place. We are so close. I just

2:56:56want to be able to breathe a sigh of relief and know that the people of Guelph will be able to

2:57:00exercise the right to vote and do so without having to go through a dangerous and difficult

2:57:04experience. I just want to know that a reputation as a fair and equitable city will remain intact

2:57:10and make no mistake people across Ontario are paying attention. I heard a blurb about this

2:57:14very debate on the CBC this morning. In the decade plus now that we've been going over this issue

2:57:20in Guelph, more than half of the Ontario municipalities have adopted online voting in some form. I want

2:57:26to live in a city that's seen as a leader in equity, not one dragging its feet. Now I know that has

2:57:32raised a lot of concern over the security and logistics issues around online voting,

2:57:37but if we have a real commitment to a fair democracy, we will recognize these as

2:57:42just some of the challenges that go along with holding elections, which is fundamentally a

2:57:46difficult undertaking. A lot of work goes into holding free and fair elections from elections

2:57:51officials, city staff, volunteers. They don't do it. We as a society don't do it because it's easy.

2:57:57We do it because it is necessary for fair democracy and universal enfranchisement.

2:58:02Please don't renege on our commitment to adopt accessible voting because we're afraid to take

2:58:07on this challenge. As mentioned by previous delegate, moving from elections as a show of hands to a

2:58:13paper secret ballot was once in itself an innovation. I'm sure there was difficulties

2:58:18in implementing it. Does that mean we should have stuck with a system where the only voters were

2:58:22the wealthy landowners that could all fit in a room together? Expansion of enfranchisement always

2:58:28comes with challenges. If other Ontario municipalities are not doing it right, then let's take the

2:58:33opportunity to lead by example and set good standards for others and help build these robust

2:58:38systems for the future. I mentioned before that I have friends and family in the disabled community

2:58:44who need accessible voting options. Well, I have a new one just recently. My cousin underwent a

2:58:49heart transplant a couple weeks ago. He'll need to be on immunosuppressants for the rest of his life.

2:58:54I know very well just how much of a nightmare trying to brave a crowded polling station can be

2:58:59if someone coughing in your direction can kill you. As an aside here, when I've accompanied disabled

2:59:04friends to the polls before, they've been very inconsistent in their provision of accessible

2:59:11options. I've definitely seen times where the elections volunteers seemed overwhelmed. They

2:59:17forgot about O's. They had to search around for binder trying to find out what the policies for

2:59:22offering assistance for voting are. Sometimes that system fails. So, councillors, please remember,

2:59:31it's not just those who are asking for equity now that we are doing this for, though that should be

2:59:36enough. It could be you, your cousin, your mom or dad next week or in a decade. Building a more

2:59:42accessible city, a more accessible world benefits us all. That's why I was very happy, very grateful

2:59:49to hear that we're finally moving forward with the motion to adopt a method of internet voting

2:59:53and I would humbly ask council to please follow through with this commitment. Thank you.

3:00:00Well, thank you very much and let me see if there's a follow-up for you.

3:00:04There is. Councillor Goller has a question for you. I'll turn it over to him.

3:00:09Thank you through your worship. Thank you for your presentation.

3:00:14I really appreciate you sharing your experience about your personal and your family members.

3:00:21I want to post you some of the concerns that have been shared about then what happens if

3:00:27there is a risk, if there is tampering and there is we lose faith in the electoral process.

3:00:34You know, there is that concern. Could you speak to that? I mean, faith in the electoral process,

3:00:41in order to have faith in the electoral process, we have to believe that our elections are secure,

3:00:45but we also have to believe that our loved ones won't be excluded by, you know, something that might

3:00:52come up. Like you can say there's, you know, there's risks to online voting. There's also,

3:00:56like I said, risks like this was the last federal election. I brought my friend along. There were

3:01:00so many people. There was a line out the door. We couldn't get up the wheelchair ramps because

3:01:04they were blocked by people. Nobody was, I think this was still during masking requirements,

3:01:08people weren't, that wasn't being enforced. Again, the elections volunteers, I'm sure they work very

3:01:13hard, but, you know, they seem overwhelmed. They didn't know what to do. So like the systems can

3:01:18always break down. The response is not to retreat from our commitment to fairness and universal

3:01:26enfranchisement. It's to make sure we're doing our due diligence, whether towards security or

3:01:30towards equity or towards whatever. Because again, this has to be a societal priority for us.

3:01:37Yeah. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I appreciate your question.

3:01:43Great. And that's, that's it. There's nothing more, no more questions for you. So thank you very

3:01:47much. Thank you. Okay. Scott Frederick is going to now also join us by video. And Matt Saunders is

3:02:01in the wings who I saw walk in earlier. So I know that you're here. Thank you. Thank you, Matt.

3:02:07So we'll just wait for Scott Frederick to join us by video. Hi, Scott. It's, it's Cam. I was one,

3:02:23our mayor got three, sorry. Can you hear me okay? Our clerks are indicating that you have entered

3:02:34the sort of the right virtual spot to be in, but we just can't see you and we can't hear you.

3:02:40At a minimum, could you make sure that you're unmuted? Yeah. So Scott, if you can hear me,

3:02:51we're going to skip you, Matt. If you don't mind coming down, we'll go to you, Matt.

3:02:58And we'll come back to you, Scott. Okay. Thanks, Matt, for being accommodating there, jumping up.

3:03:06So appreciate it. Nice to see you. Thank you for coming. I'll turn it over to you whenever you're

3:03:09ready. Okay. All right. Thanks. Good evening, mayor and council. Excuse my voice is a little bit

3:03:14raspy. Thank you all for your time tonight. Luckily, I get to speak late in the evening. Many points

3:03:20have already been made, so I won't bore you with them again. You've already heard and you will hear

3:03:24presentations from a number of accessibility advocates and accessibility experts. Their

3:03:30expertise and their lived experiences are invaluable to this discussion. I'm here to ask you today to

3:03:36please listen to them. It is patently clear that the city does not do nearly enough to make voting

3:03:43accessible to everyone. This is unacceptable. Ultimately, we all have more faith and trust

3:03:50in our democracy when everyone's voice is heard. But online voting is not the answer.

3:03:57Online voting breaks our democracy. We've heard from several delegates tonight about the three

3:04:03inviolable constraints that a voting system must meet to earn the faith and trust of voters.

3:04:11Constraint one, to prevent fraud, we must all be sure that every voter gets one and only one vote.

3:04:21To prevent coercion, constraint two, we must all be sure that every voter's vote is private.

3:04:28And constraint three, we must all be sure that every vote cast has been counted.

3:04:36With paper ballots, we know these constraints are met. For every ballot cast,

3:04:42but online voting violates all three. Online voting forces voters to trust,

3:04:49blindly, where we've never needed to trust before. And that is a fundamental change.

3:04:55In the digital age, where trust in government is nearly gone, where charlatans already shout

3:05:01nonsensical claims of election fraud at an international scale, we simply cannot risk

3:05:07bringing forth even more questions of election illegitimacy. So yes, please listen to the

3:05:14accessibility experts who need better ballot access. But also listen to the tech experts who

3:05:22tell you about the dangers, the pitfalls, and the false promises of security. And please listen to

3:05:28the election experts who tell you that this is not a simple change. This is not mail-in,

3:05:34this is not advanced polls or extended hours or mobile voting or any number of accessibility

3:05:39options that you can consider. Online voting is different. Online voting is a fundamental

3:05:46breaking change to the way our democracy works. That's all I have to say. Thank you.

3:05:52Thank you, Matt. Let me see if there's a follow-up for you. There is not, so thank you very much,

3:05:59and thanks for being here. Appreciate it. Thank you. I'm going to try Scott Frederick again. Scott,

3:06:06it's Mayor Guthrie wondering if your video can be turned on. I know you're trying to join us by

3:06:10video. And if you can't get the video working, if you want to do star six, and maybe that you could

3:06:20do audio only, unless you're using through the computer. Okay, we're going to skip you for now.

3:06:28I'll continue to try coming back. Morgan Dandy is going to try to join us by video. If we could have

3:06:34Morgan maybe try to join us. I'm sorry. All right. Morgan, we see you. We see you. So you're

3:06:49you're in. Thank you. And do you want to try your audio for us? Yeah, we can hear you as well.

3:06:56Thank you, Morgan. We'll turn it over to you. Go right ahead.

3:07:00Mayor, council, staff and fellow Gualfites, I find it appropriate that we're talking about

3:07:07online voting as an accessibility issue during National Accessibility Week.

3:07:13I'm grateful for the accessibility available to delegate by video because my invisible,

3:07:21intermittently debilitating degenerative genetic disorder has made it necessary for me to stay

3:07:29home due to pain and mobility issues. Every day, my functionality is a surprise.

3:07:38Other's Dan Lo's syndrome is a dynamic disability. A disability which tends to fluctuate in severity,

3:07:48pain, energy, etc. In a difficult to predict manner. Those with a dynamic disability are able

3:07:57to do certain tasks at one time, but unable to complete those tasks at another time. That's

3:08:05where I find myself today. I've heard and I understand all of the concerns people have

3:08:15regarding security of e-voting. I've shared some of these concerns.

3:08:22Now that I have a greater insight about how much a disability, well, multiple disabilities,

3:08:30impact day-to-day life. I now believe the human right of being able to independently

3:08:37mark a ballot supersedes the concerns of the maybes. Everybody presents as reasons to not allow

3:08:45e-voting as a means of providing accessibility. Can we look at this issue specifically from an

3:08:52accessibility lens as a human rights issue? Is it not possible to create procedures to have

3:09:00internet voting be a purely matter of accessibility? Can the vote from home parameters not be extended

3:09:09to internet voting? The current chair of our provincially mandated accessibility advisory

3:09:16committee is specific expertise in the intersectionality of cybersecurity and accessibility.

3:09:23Why are we not listening to in-house expert advice? People have mentioned that scrutiny is

3:09:31not possible with internet voting. An average person may not be able to perform this. Yet

3:09:38individuals with code expertise may. Is providing e-voting to a limited number of people not possible?

3:09:51No one seemed overly concerned about the approximately 10% of mail-in votes that didn't get counted in 2022.

3:10:00Why not provide advanced poll only? Limited enrollment to online voting to the disabled

3:10:07community. If there's an identified issue with e-voting, those votes could be nullified as

3:10:14matter of procedure. I am appreciative of all the people who have raised their voices in concern.

3:10:23I am grateful to everyone who keeps watch over the security of our votes. Now,

3:10:30it is time to review e-voting options with human rights as the main lens and provide the 25% of

3:10:37your constituents who are statistically disabled. The ability to vote municipally,

3:10:45the level of government most involved in day-to-day life in an independent manner.

3:10:53Regardless of the outcome tonight, I'm glad this conversation is occurring

3:10:58and I look forward to the clerks coming back with their findings. Thank you.

3:11:06Thank you so much, Morgan, for your presentation and I'll just see if there's a follow-up for you.

3:11:12There is not, so again, thank you very much for joining us and take care.

3:11:18I'm going to go back to Scott Frederick again. If Scott Frederick is available,

3:11:22want to jump on the screen or at least do audio for us, Scott? All right, we're going to keep

3:11:36moving forward. Ian Flett is going to join us by video and we're down to our last three after that.

3:11:43Adam Donaldson is here in the building, of course, so you're in the wings, Adam.

3:11:49But Ian Flett has joined us. Hi, Ian, thank you so much and can you just check your audio for us?

3:11:55Good evening, Mayor Guthrie, members of council. Can you hear me?

3:11:58Yep, thank you very much. See and hear you perfectly, so I'll turn it over to you. You go right ahead.

3:12:03Thank you. My name is Ian Flett. I'm a municipal lawyer based in Toronto and I'm representing an

3:12:08informal group of wealth citizens who are concerned about local democracy. They want to have all

3:12:15possible information in front of you for this important decision. It's telling that the staff

3:12:20of the City of Guelph have independently reached a similar conclusion as the staff in the city where

3:12:25I'm located here in Toronto. Because Toronto staff conducted a comprehensive study recommending the

3:12:31rejection of internet voting for the 20 for internet voting in the past. One of the authors of that

3:12:37report expanded that conclusion in an email to one of our clients just last week. Writing,

3:12:44internet voting was examined for the 2014 election and found not acceptable regarding privacy and

3:12:50security of the vote. Continued research has made clear that the significant vulnerabilities and

3:12:56technical challenges identified in past staff reports remain innumerable and unresolved.

3:13:04Here's an important sentence. Currently there is no internet voting service that can guarantee

3:13:09security, ballot secrecy and vote integrity. Therefore, they write, internet voting will not

3:13:17be an option for the 2026 election. Toronto elections will continue to investigate internet

3:13:22voting for future elections. Guelph City staff final recommendation to you was to have vote by mail

3:13:29and vote from home as the alternative voting methods for the 2026 municipal and school board

3:13:35elections. And we believe this is the correct way for you to proceed. City of Guelph staff concluded

3:13:41internet voting is not capable of being the requirements of the municipal elections act on

3:13:46its own and established through case law. This opinion, by the way, is not unique to Guelph,

3:13:51where the City of Toronto also found that internet voting would severely compromise the

3:13:56principles of the municipal elections act and the clerk's ability to deliver an election that

3:14:00protects the rights of and votes of voters with disabilities. As matters of law and speaking for

3:14:07our clients, we agree. I'd like to highlight for you those principles of the municipal elections

3:14:11act, which are compromised by internet voting. I would like to the first principle is the secrecy

3:14:16of the ballot. There are two concerns here. The first is the risk of identifying voters based

3:14:22on login credentials so that an elector's choice on their virtual ballot may be linked to their name.

3:14:28The second concern is the inability to determine if voter information is accessed by a malicious actor.

3:14:35Each major hack we hear about in the news reveals to me and perhaps also to you the way hackers are

3:14:41one step ahead of our best efforts at security and to add insult to injury, we only find out

3:14:46about the hack at the time of their choosing. The municipal elections act also demands

3:14:52integrity of the voting process to maintain the legitimacy of the outcome. Issues raised by

3:14:57earlier speakers concerning the 2014 and 2022 elections point to how easily the legitimacy

3:15:03of an election can slip from our grasp. You do not have the evidence before you to suggest that the

3:15:08integrity can be maintained with internet voting. The third principle is the need for certainty

3:15:15that the results of the election reflect the votes cast. Internet voting leaves no paper trail to

3:15:20unequivocally capture the votes. Mr. Clerk has thoughtfully expressed concern about this issue.

3:15:25In effect, isn't he asking to be equipped to defend the results of the election he is charged with

3:15:29conducting? Democracy, as you know, is founded on the principle that governments are formed by the

3:15:36choice of the majority of voters. Therefore, it is essential to accurately count valid ballots

3:15:42and reject invalid ones. Municipal clerks must be equipped to ensure secret ballots and justify

3:15:49the count if called upon to do so. From the delegation you've heard tonight and the reports

3:15:54before you, it's evident that internet voting as it exists today cannot achieve this. You are being

3:16:00asked to balance the need for citizens to access their ballots with the need to preserve the secrecy

3:16:05and the integrity of those ballots. These principles are not at odds. You can vote

3:16:11to reach for a standard of excellence in performing the mutual duties of ensuring accessibility

3:16:16and integrity. However, one without the other is not tenable. And all the evidence before you

3:16:22points to one conclusion. Internet voting cannot definitively maintain vote integrity. Thank you.

3:16:32Great. Thank you very much. I'll see if there's any questions. I know that I've got a couple, but

3:16:40Councillor Olligl first. Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie, through you to

3:16:46Mr. Flett, the delegate. Mr. Flett, thank you very much for your presentation on behalf of others.

3:16:53I think I heard you state justify valid ballots. There's a corollary to that, I think, and that is

3:17:00what about the scrutiny and recounting of ballots? I was wondering if you could comment on that and

3:17:06internet voting. Well, all I can do is provide you with the established protocol that is in

3:17:13the Municipal Elections Act that provides for the attendance and the act is specific. There are only

3:17:20a number of specified individuals who can attend at the counting of a vote,

3:17:24and that includes scrutineers on behalf of the different candidates. And that's a significant

3:17:29measure and one of the great traditions of our democratic system is ensuring that the vote is

3:17:34observed and observable. I can speak from personal experience of having once been a

3:17:38scrutiny in law school and working for Elections Canada, and there you are in a room with people

3:17:43ensuring that the paper reflects the vote. And of course, you're looking at a piece of paper that

3:17:50has no identifying marks on it. And so you have a ballot that stands for one person's vote without

3:17:56knowing who that person is, and it cannot be impeached. So that is a significant element that

3:18:02is lost through internet voting, especially if, and I think I'd heard from one speaker,

3:18:07you can have people with specialized expertise fulfill the role of scrutiny. Well, that's not

3:18:12the point. The point is so that is for the whole system to be accessible to verify the outcome.

3:18:21Thank you. I have one more question. And that is, I was wondering if you could please explain

3:18:27through your understanding what the duty to accommodate means. Does that mean the same thing

3:18:34to everyone or what? Well, so it without wanting to give advice to the to the corporation of the

3:18:43city of Guelph, my sense of what that duty is, is that there's the Municipal Elections Act is going

3:18:50to require a level of accessibility for all electors within the district where election is

3:18:55being conducted. It doesn't get into a deep analysis of the level of accessibility, but it is

3:19:02it's unquestionable that accessibility is required. My sense from reading the cases is that

3:19:07then you take a couple steps further, that it becomes a positive common law duty on a municipality

3:19:12to ensure that electors could get to the polls. And this is also going to be reflected within the

3:19:17Ontario Ontario Disabilities Act. And as one of your previous speakers wrote, I mean, there would

3:19:23be people who probably could make a claim under the human rights code if they could not reach

3:19:30a polling station or couldn't find an effective way to vote. So I my sense and this was the

3:19:37concluding comment is that Guelph can put much more emphasis on ensuring accessibility. In fact,

3:19:45in my role with Elections Canada as an independent person in those days, one of the things we did

3:19:50was examine polling stations to ensure they were meeting accessibility codes and immediately

3:19:56addressing any issues with the lack of accessibility. You heard from Ms Cameron,

3:20:01who I think gave a very compelling presentation to you about concerns around accessibility.

3:20:06And it seems to me that that might be where Guelph would put more emphasis is ensuring that

3:20:11polling locations are indeed accessible without any barriers. Okay, Councillor Aldous finished.

3:20:22Councillor Roark, I think I saw your hand go up. Do you have a question? Thank you,

3:20:29Mayor Guthrie. Through you to Mr. Flett. So everyone would like to provide the maximum

3:20:35accessibility. Some proponents of online voting believe the City Clerk's office could provide

3:20:42all of the testing, penetration testing, threat assessment, all of those things

3:20:47to ensure that's secure. And I'm wondering in your estimation, is it reasonable to expect

3:20:53the City Clerk's office in a mid-sized city to be able to meet that threshold?

3:20:59I've done a lot of work in Guelph and my role as a municipal lawyer and I found that the staff

3:21:04of the City of Guelph routinely punch above their weight, are excellent, provide excellent reports

3:21:09and do excellent work. On that I have no doubt. What you're asking is you have a staff who have

3:21:16written in a report, here are the challenges that we face, and we're not actually really sure that

3:21:22we can meet the challenge. We're not sure that we can do this. So you have a staff that is

3:21:28candidly telling you that notwithstanding its own expertise and notwithstanding the estimation of

3:21:33what the cost of the penetration, penetration studies would be, they're not sure that they're

3:21:38actually able to deliver an integrity, an election with full integrity. And so their words speak

3:21:45for themselves without any reflection on their abilities or their resourcing. They don't think

3:21:50they can do it and I think you should take them at their word. Okay, thank you. Seeing nothing

3:22:00further, just for myself, I've perked up a little bit when you said you're here on behalf of clients.

3:22:07Are you being paid to be here right now? I'm a lawyer. I'm paid to appear places of course.

3:22:15Okay, and you're the same lawyer that was here several years ago that represented people

3:22:22against the, I think the project that had like a market and affordable senior housing as well.

3:22:29Is it the same group that's hired you? No, it's not the same group. They're all similar

3:22:34individuals but it's not the same group. Okay, so who are you? As I understand Mayor Guthrie,

3:22:40that project failed at the Ontario Land Tribunal because of heritage issues and also because of

3:22:46shading onto the school. And as I understand the school also had issues with not being able to

3:22:51provide renewable energy. Honestly, I'm not sure that there was any guarantee that the affordable

3:22:56housing was okay. I shouldn't have brought that up. It's actually good at being affordable housing

3:22:59only to get the facts straight with respect. Yeah, we hear you on that again. Thank you.

3:23:03I just wanted to try to figure out the context of who you were if I remembered correctly about

3:23:08how you represented others before. So who are your clients? In this case, I'm representing Ms.

3:23:13Watson who you've heard from Cameron Shelley and Gerstbe Kauley, Ron East and Lynn Grist.

3:23:21Thank you so much. No further questions? And we appreciate your delegation and your presentation.

3:23:27Take care. Adam, Adam Dawson, you're up next. Thank you. David Suffing is on video next.

3:23:42Then it's Laura Lyrude if you're listening everybody. And then I'm going to try to go back to Scott

3:23:48again. Maybe before the end, I'll try shoving Scott in between to try a couple more times. But I did

3:23:55say Adam was next. So I'm going to go Adam. Scott, if you can hear me, I'm going to try you again

3:23:59after Adam. If not, David Suffling is on video after that. But Adam, thank you. Go ahead. It's

3:24:06all yours. Thanks, Mayor Guthrie. I'm once again required to do my favorite thing in the world,

3:24:11which is public speaking. I first want to commend Guelph's wonderful Luddite mafia who have come

3:24:17out in force tonight. A well-organized effort to convince us all and convince you to throw

3:24:23point of privilege bodies. I'm just going to stop for a second. It looks like we're on the same

3:24:28wavelength. Let's just make sure we're creating an atmosphere. And if the clerks could just

3:24:33please stop the time. We don't want to have any kind of disparaging, even cheeky disparaging remarks

3:24:42against anyone because we want to create an atmosphere where anybody on difference of opinions

3:24:46can come forward. Adam, I appreciate that. I know that you know that. So if you could start over for

3:24:50us, I'm going to give you the full time there because you're only eight seconds in. Maybe just

3:24:55skip over that part and we would appreciate you not saying things like that. Okay? Thank you.

3:24:59How about our wonderfully technologically concerned constituency?

3:25:04Thank you. It's a well-organized effort to convince us all to throw our bodies and our devices onto

3:25:10the machines and onto the gears and on the wheels to make them stop. We have heard tonight though

3:25:16that this is a matter of democracy. It's important to keep in mind that democracy is a combination of

3:25:21two Greek words, people and power. And what I have gathered from 18 months of attending AAC meetings

3:25:28is that there's a group of people in our community who want to participate. They are engaged, active,

3:25:34and they feel powerless. They are asking for the opportunity to vote. They have that.

3:25:41But they are actually asking for as an opportunity to exercise their franchise with personal

3:25:46security, autonomy, and independence. They've said that the most direct way to do that is internet

3:25:52tablets or internet ballots. I want to imagine for a minute if we address food insecurity the

3:25:59following way by having someone bring some random groceries to your house, cook you a meal, give

3:26:04you some portion of it, and then take the leftovers and leave. Yes, we fed that person. Did we offer

3:26:10them dignity? Did we offer them independence? How many strangers do any of us welcome into our

3:26:16home on a daily basis? Let's call this what it is, ableism. It's the preposterous notion that those of

3:26:23us without disability can tell those of us with a disability how they should live their lives

3:26:28instead of following their lead. It's a violation of their, what's that term, human rights? I'm not

3:26:37mitigating the security concerns either. They exist and they're no different than the cybersecurity

3:26:42concerns that the staff in this building face on a daily basis. The danger is no greater and worse

3:26:48on election day. Hackers aren't waiting for one special day every four years. They're not wizards

3:26:54casting a spell. They're always looking for weaknesses and opportunities. And I just want to go off

3:26:59script for a minute because we've heard a lot tonight about it would be nice if the Ontario

3:27:03government came up with standards. I agree. I think one of the great failures of government,

3:27:09and I don't mean Guelph government, I don't mean Ontario, I don't mean Canada,

3:27:12but generally in the Western world one of the great failures of the last 20 years is that

3:27:16governments have been able, unable to keep up with technological change and innovation with

3:27:22legislation and regulation. I fear this may be one of these times where the cracks have fallen

3:27:28through down onto you to try and address that in some small way by taking the first step.

3:27:37Perhaps if enough municipalities get out there and offer internet voting it will spur

3:27:43the upper levels of government to finally cement those standards. But I'm going to go back to my

3:27:47notes. At the beginning of this month council made a promise to our disabled community that they

3:27:52will explore for the next election an internet voting option. If council renegs on that promise

3:27:58tonight, I think it'll be a backhanded slap to the face of an equity seeking community.

3:28:03I should also point out, and this has been pointed out already, it is accessibility week.

3:28:09There are people here tonight who have asked you to turn your back on the disabled community

3:28:15during accessibility week. In 2026 many of you, perhaps all of you, I'm not making any judgments,

3:28:24are going to go out in the campaign trail and talk about how every vote counts, does it?

3:28:29Because it certainly sounds like we're leaving some votes out there waiting to be collected and

3:28:35how many times do we have to tell people that we don't want their votes, we don't want to meet them

3:28:41where they are and how many times do we tell them that before they just stop participating altogether.

3:28:46Again, no mitigation of security concerns, no one is ignoring them. But I think as Ms. Dandy said,

3:28:52this is fundamentally a human rights issue. Does every citizen in this community have a right

3:28:57to choose their government? If they do, then I think we can take the relatively small accommodation

3:29:03that this represents. If we can't, I hope our friends will be able to look, those members of

3:29:11our community who have a disability in the eye and tell them why they can't participate in the way

3:29:17that they want. I'm going to end on a personal note. I used to tack more to the anti-internet

3:29:22voting camp, but I have honestly been persuaded by the passion and drive of people like Chair Root,

3:29:29Mr. Ashgway, and some of the people who have disabilities who have delegated tonight,

3:29:37and other members of the AAC, nobody has to earn the right to vote. But I think,

3:29:42my goodness, I think they have earned the right to have access to the ballot in 2026.

3:29:47This is a fight we've been having for 12 years. I think maybe the time has come.

3:29:53That's all. Okay. Thank you very much, Adam, for your presentation. Councillor Allt, please.

3:29:59Yes. Thank you, Mayor Guthrie, just rising on a point of privilege. I do take exception with the

3:30:04term ableism coming from council. As a person who could, I suppose, be categorically defined as

3:30:09disabled because of my eyes, my ear, my ear drum transplant, my one kidney and my heart condition,

3:30:15I would think that that does not necessarily apply either to me or others in this, on this

3:30:20council who might have similar infirmities. I think it's very important that we be understood

3:30:27to be assessing not accessibility so much as what we are doing right now is determining the

3:30:33appropriate technology for accessibility. Many of my friends who are active in the accessibility

3:30:41community agree to disagree with me and probably others here. I think it's very important to

3:30:47recognize that council is making a reasoned decision and might have different approaches,

3:30:52but nobody is excluding anybody from voting. We are trying to find the best alternative.

3:30:59May I respond? No, I'm going to just leave it at that as a personal point of personal privilege.

3:31:05But I heard you have a column on Saturdays. So, Councillor Boussantel, I believe you have a question,

3:31:14though. I'm going to pass. Okay. Is there any questions? Okay. Councillor Downer with a question,

3:31:22please. I actually would like to hear Mr. Donaldson's response. I think that's a fair question

3:31:29because something was stated to him without, so my question is what is your response to that?

3:31:36Kind of comments. Thank you. So just before you continue, I'm going to allow it. Okay. As the

3:31:41chair, I'll make that ruling. That's fine at this time, but I also don't want this to spur into

3:31:47back and forth. So, respectfully go right ahead. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor Guthrie. Through

3:31:53Councillor Downer to you. I'll try to keep this as formal as possible since I've

3:31:57strayed so far off the path tonight. No offense was meant. I don't think my comment was directed

3:32:04to Council and I apologize if it was taken as such. I meant more of the overall idea that

3:32:11to have people for people who do not have disability and look, I've had conversations with

3:32:15Chair Root where she said, you know, you have glasses so you could qualify somebody with a

3:32:20disability. And I was like, I said, thank you. I feel seen. I will not take that on, but the idea

3:32:30of people who are not disabled prescribing how people should, who are disabled should interact

3:32:36with the community. My concern is that that is ableistic. I'm not, by all means, I'm not an authority

3:32:44on what is ableism, what is not. But just from my point of view, there have been times during the

3:32:50debate on this where it has walked up to that line. So it was not a personal judgment on Council

3:32:58on anybody. It was more about the idea. Okay. No, thank you. You're just saying that. Thank you.

3:33:04Thank you, Councillor Downer. You're okay with any further questions? No. All right. Thank you,

3:33:08Adam. Appreciate it. Let me see if Scott Frederick is available. Scott, it's Mayor Guthrie again.

3:33:18I think third time's a charm here, my friend, we're trying to see if we can

3:33:22we can get you on video or at least audio. Scott, can you hear us? We have the delegate

3:33:29in via phone now, Mayor Guthrie, and if they're able to unmute with Star Six, they should be able

3:33:33to speak with Council. All right, Scott, Star Six, my friend, are you going to join us? Star Six is

3:33:39enabled. Can you hear me? The stars have aligned. Perfect. Thank you. No, don't hit anything. Don't

3:33:49touch anything. You're perfect. Please, please. Did he just mute? Scott, can you hear me?

3:33:57We were so close. Okay, Scott, it's Mayor Guthrie. Hit Star Six one more time for me,

3:34:12and then talk. Hi there. Can you hear me now? Perfect. Good, good, good. Go ahead. You have up to

3:34:18five minutes. How are you, Scott? It's okay. Go. Okay. First, I want to thank staff and the accessibility

3:34:26community for their thorough research and work that's gone into this. Staff have made a very clear

3:34:32recommendation against Internet voting based on their work, and it's worth noting that it's rare

3:34:38for Council to reject a recommendation from staff. So I personally have concerns with Internet voting.

3:34:47Internet voting depends on two tests. One is the authentication of the voter, and the second is

3:34:55maintaining ballot secrecy. These two tests are in conflict. It's possible using cryptographic

3:35:04methods under development to satisfy these tests, but not in a way that a layman without

3:35:12advanced mathematical training can understand, and that is, in my opinion, a fatal flaw in

3:35:18Internet voting. People need to be able to see how the process works. Otherwise, there'll be an

3:35:25erosion of trust in the process. That's why the Irish have a visible count. They want to be able

3:35:35to see its value for them to be able to see the count happen. You kind of have a black box where

3:35:43votes go in and then results come out with no way of verifying that vote was kind of

3:35:49fact-turally or being able to do a third-party recount. All current Internet voting methods

3:35:54are black boxes. Third-party recounts are essential in case something goes wrong with the initial vote,

3:36:01and things will go wrong. Things always go wrong. I've been working with computers since the 70s,

3:36:07and I've seen a lot of things go wrong. I saw something go wrong this morning.

3:36:12Numerous examples have been posted about Internet voting disasters. Without the possibility of a

3:36:17third-party recount, we could have a failed election, and we don't want that.

3:36:23DAPA said that paper ballots are the gold standard. One of the major benefits of paper

3:36:28ballots are the possibility of a recount. I recommend maintaining paper ballots.

3:36:36That concludes my presentation. It's a bit disjointed because I completely rewrote the thing.

3:36:45But I did have one final comment to make. I've noted some loose talk around the possibility

3:36:51of our Internet voting being hacked. I've heard

3:36:55folks such as, we've never had been hacked before, so what's the problem?

3:36:58I've heard people say, we're going to hack them, and both are small and insignificant. No one will

3:37:02want to hack us. Statements like that are treated as a challenge by hackers, so please don't do this.

3:37:10They will hack us senseless. So that's what I have to say about that.

3:37:14Thank you. Thank you, Scott.

3:37:21Just so you know, we didn't hear anything. You forgot to press star-sick. No, I'm just kidding.

3:37:25Sorry, little levity a couple hours in. No, Scott, we appreciate you

3:37:35trying to make sure your presentation was heard. So thank you very much. I have a question for

3:37:40you, Scott, though, from Councillor Allt. Okay, just one second. Go ahead. Thank you,

3:37:44Mayor Guthrie. Through you to the delegate, Mr. Frederick. Mr. Frederick, you might be the last

3:37:50chance I have to ask the same question. Are viruses, trojans, and whatever they are, which

3:37:57might be resident on any device you use to vote, do they potentially pose the challenge of invading

3:38:07the voting software or whatever? I don't even know how to put that because I don't know enough

3:38:11about computers to speak about it. I doubt if it would be a problem for the

3:38:20site that's recording the votes. Yeah, I don't think a virus is going to,

3:38:26it might affect your own machine. It's not going to affect the server. Great. Thank you.

3:38:35That's not the only problem you're going to face. Okay, great. Oh yeah. Thank you. Thank you,

3:38:43thank you, Councillor Allt. And we'll just move on to our last couple. Thank you again for your

3:38:47presentation. David Suffolk is going to join us by video. And then our last is Lorelei Root,

3:38:54also by video. David, I can see you on video. Can you just check your audio for me?

3:39:00You are coming through great. Thank you, David, for joining us. I'll turn it over to you. Go right

3:39:03ahead. Thank you. Mayor Guthrie, Councillors and assembled people of Guelph, thank you for taking

3:39:08the time to hear me speak. By way of background, I earned a degree from the University of Guelph in

3:39:14Computer Science, where I graduated with distinction. I have a decade plus of industry experience,

3:39:19including code security, auditing, anti malware, and applying machine learning to email attachment

3:39:24to antivirus. I hail from Waterloo, a tech savvy city where we have rejected internet voting.

3:39:31I also live with a serious disability. I spend my days living in code, so I think it's safe to say

3:39:36I'm not a leadite. But I do know the limitations of my craft. If this that follows seems a little

3:39:44disorganized, I apologize. A lot has already been said. I do have to add, I'm not speaking on behalf

3:39:49of my employers present or past. My feeling about e-voting and safety is worse than it was last time

3:39:55Guelph considered this issue. We know a lot more now about what governments and especially

3:40:00unfriendly governments are capable of and doing in this space. It's clear that some actors are happy

3:40:06to interfere with elections even if they're caught red-handed. You can see the United States for

3:40:10an example of that. We're seeing ransomware attacks on critical institutions, including hospitals.

3:40:17Supply chain attacks where someone will infect, for example, a library that is relied on by lots

3:40:24of other software have become much more of an issue. Recently, XZ was found to have a backdoor.

3:40:32XZ is in everything. So that's a pretty big problem. My feeling speaking with colleagues is that there

3:40:42is a consensus among computer scientists that current e-voting vendors are not trustworthy.

3:40:48Blockchain is a solution looking for a problem other than organized crime. And it does little to

3:40:53address the concerns in this space, as people have been saying loudly for many years. I would refer

3:40:58you to Randall Munro's comic XKCD at xkcd.com slash 2030. An interviewer asks an expert in technology.

3:41:09They say they fixed it with something called blockchain, to which the expert replies,

3:41:12ah, bury it in the desert. And his colleague adds, wear gloves. XKCD.com slash 463 is saying there's

3:41:21antivirus software on voting machines is like going to a parent teacher conference and having the

3:41:26teacher assure you that they always wear a condom while teaching. Technically, it's safer than the

3:41:31alternative, but is that someone you want doing that job? Internet voting is not like Internet

3:41:37making basically because of the secret ballot. We don't have a ledger we can check. So it's no wonder

3:41:43that people claim there's no evidence of a hack in a live election. I have serious doubts about

3:41:49vendor competence. You'll know, for example, that there's no regulatory college supervising computer

3:41:54scientists. So there's no externally verifiable measure of basic competency. These people probably

3:42:02have no security clearances. So you don't know who's potentially disloyal or more importantly

3:42:06subject to interference, to influence, because, for example, of unlawful behavior, financial problems,

3:42:13or relatives who may be subject to pressure by foreign governments. Most competent people in

3:42:18this field believe this shouldn't be attempted, which makes me wonder who's actually building

3:42:22these things. Nobody, as far as I know, is auditing the broader security practices. They're

3:42:29keeping the source code secret basically, but are they doing it securely? Are they using a secure

3:42:37build process? Are they looking at the dependencies that they integrate? I seriously doubt it because

3:42:42no one's looking over their shoulder. It's all considered a proprietary trade secret. No one

3:42:47but them can look. Only the vendor can look at problems both at design and after an election,

3:42:53only they can look for evidence that there's been a hack, but they have a vested interest in not

3:42:58finding that evidence. So you can bet that locking and auditing will be performative rather than

3:43:02effective. That pretty much avoids any interest they have in their reputation being an assurance for

3:43:07you. As people have said, you wouldn't hire a company to count ballots by hand in a secret room,

3:43:14and this is probably more vulnerable than that. I won't get into chain of custody issues because

3:43:21I don't think I have time. I want to say that your black box audit, which is to say an audit where

3:43:27people can use the system but not look at its internals, tells you very little about the security

3:43:33of a system. Security, we say, has to be baked in. It can't be bolted on, and that's very hard to

3:43:38verify without open access to design artifacts. You can see I'm running out of time. I guess my

3:43:45biggest point will be that interference doesn't have to be invited. There are military signals,

3:43:50intelligence agencies that almost certainly have the ability, and if you get the right number at

3:43:56the end of your election, it's because they can take you up on the invitation. In that sense,

3:44:02it's not a hypothetical risk. Of course, if people doubt the outcome, it doesn't matter because you

3:44:10don't have a peaceful and orderly transition of power. I could go into more on that, but I won't.

3:44:16Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm still sorry to jump in that the final bell of your five minutes just jumped

3:44:20off there. I apologize. No, it's okay. I hate doing it, but I do have to cut you off there,

3:44:26but please don't leave just in case there's a question. Okay. There is actually, there is not

3:44:31a question, but oh no, there is. I'm sorry. Councillor Richardson, please go ahead.

3:44:38Thanks Mayor Guthrie and through you to the delegate. Could you help me understand the chain

3:44:43of custody? Yeah, so if we were doing a paper election and ballots were cast in one place but

3:44:50counted in another, there would be careful security over the ballot box as it traveled from one place

3:44:55to another. And that would be necessary because without that, the vote wouldn't have any meaning.

3:45:02You wouldn't know what was being counted at the other end. The problem with voting with electronic

3:45:07equipment is that unlike, say, a paper ballot where you can look at it and see that it's blank

3:45:12or a golf pencil where, I mean, I'm not sure how you'd compromise a golf pencil, it's not going to

3:45:17mark the wrong box on you. With computer equipment, it's very difficult to look at it and see that

3:45:22it's going to do what it was supposed to do, even what it was intended to do, without getting into

3:45:29very, very complex investigations. So for example, if this equipment that is running your election

3:45:36is not being monitored between the time it's prepared and the time it's used, someone can

3:45:42potentially interfere with that equipment, either remotely or in person. And there's

3:45:48really no way to defend against that unless you're going to have very well vetted people

3:45:53monitoring it around the clock. So that's that question.

3:46:00That's clear. Thank you. Thank you very much. Great. Thank you again, David. We appreciate

3:46:08your presentation and your time. And thanks for waiting all the way through to the end there to

3:46:12join us. Take care. Thank you. Okay, everyone. We're at our last of the signed up delegations,

3:46:20Lorelai Root. And I have been made aware, as a request to me as the chair, just to give a little

3:46:27bit of grace in regards to the accommodations for Lorelai to speak to us. She's aiming for the five

3:46:37minutes, but if it goes over a little bit, there's a little bit of grace there that I'm going to

3:46:42forward that to Lorelai. So Lorelai, can you just check your audio for us? Yes. Can you hear me?

3:46:50Barely, actually. Let me try something. No, that's good. We got you. You're perfect. That's good.

3:46:57You can hear me now? Yeah, totally fine. Okay. Great. Awesome. Thank you. I will turn it over to

3:47:03you. Okay, you go right ahead. Thank you so much, everyone. I know this has been a long meeting,

3:47:08and I really want to be respectful of everyone's time. So I'm not going to go over a lot of the

3:47:13things you've heard me say in the past. You already know that I'm somebody with many of the exact

3:47:18same qualifications as many of the previous delegates when it comes to the technical side

3:47:23of this conversation. So I'm not going to get into the technical things. You've also heard me

3:47:28delegate on behalf of the AAC, and I'm not going to get into that tonight either. Although, of

3:47:32course, you're absolutely welcome to ask me any questions you have about those things. I just didn't

3:47:37want to waste anyone's time. So tonight, I wanted to use this time just to speak to you as a disabled

3:47:43citizen of wealth during National Accessibility Week who cannot currently vote independently.

3:47:49I think a great place that I want to start and probably my biggest note that I want to hit

3:47:53is just to say thank you. Sorry, I'm going to run out of my time trying not to cry. I apologize.

3:48:00I know that dissenting voices can be loud. In fact, I'm sure that something council is aware of

3:48:07more than most. I think that if some of the discourse that I've seen in the past few weeks

3:48:12from some of the delegates who somehow found my contact information and have sent me very colorful

3:48:16messages is any indication of what your inboxes look like. I'm sure you're no strangers to the

3:48:21fact that dissenting voices can sometimes be the loudest. But I'm hopeful that you won't let their

3:48:26volume drown out the grateful voices that have also showed up here today to thank you for your

3:48:30decision earlier this month. I think it's a decision that moves us toward a more inclusive

3:48:35society and shows a commitment to building a wealth that is as vibrant and diverse as the

3:48:39people who call it home. And I really can't thank you enough for that and I hope you will

3:48:43stand by that decision tonight. I know that some people have mentioned security concerns and like

3:48:48I said, I'm not going to really get into that right now. But I do think that it's worth mentioning

3:48:54that there is a portion of the motion that states the system used is going to have to meet the

3:48:57satisfaction of city clerks. And our city clerks have some of the most thorough security standards

3:49:02I've seen. I think it's very obvious how dedicated they are to the integrity of our elections process.

3:49:08And I think that we really need to be confident in their ability to be rigorous and attentive in

3:49:11their implementation of this voting method. The main thing I wanted to talk to you about tonight

3:49:16though is what it's like to be a disabled individual advocating for this right. And I apologize in

3:49:22advance if this sounds melodramatic or overly emotional because I don't mean to come across

3:49:27that way. But I do think I owe it to myself and to other disabled advocates to honor our

3:49:31experiences by recognizing how hard this advocacy can be. We face not only systemic barriers,

3:49:38but also the weight of responsibility of providing forward momentum to a conversation about our

3:49:43dignity, our rights, and our place in this world which we deserve. I want to take this opportunity

3:49:49to be transparent about that, but also about the positive impact that the removal of systemic

3:49:53barriers can have. So one thing that's been very difficult in this conversation has been hearing

3:50:00people talk about the importance of secrecy in democracy when they are aware that people like

3:50:05me don't have access to a private or independent voting method. And then hearing them say that

3:50:10they're okay with it staying that way for another election cycle. Respectfully, the only community

3:50:16members that I've heard saying this are people who already do have access to independent and secret

3:50:21voting options themselves. People who by some random cosmic role of the dice are heir to the

3:50:27privilege of not having to see the world through our eyes or live it through our experiences.

3:50:34And that privilege is not an inherently bad thing. It's just something that we owe it to one another

3:50:38to be aware of and put effort into leveling the playing field. And tonight is one of the times

3:50:43we have a chance to do that. But yeah, there have been times throughout the past decade where I've

3:50:48really struggled with this advocacy, not just with the fact that I haven't had access to independent

3:50:53voting. That's part of it. But I've also struggled with what it means to be a person from an equity

3:50:59seeking group who advocates so tirelessly for her needs to be met and at times hasn't seen any movement

3:51:04forward. I've struggled with what it means about what society thinks about people like me and where

3:51:10disabled people fall in the unwritten hierarchy of the world. And how much we sometimes matter

3:51:16to other people. I've struggled with what this means for my family. My parents as they get older.

3:51:26My niece and nephew as they grow up in this world. And I'm not blaming anyone on council

3:51:31or on any previous council for those struggles. You have an incredibly difficult job.

3:51:36And sometimes I'm so sorry. You have an incredibly difficult job and sometimes grappling with really

3:51:46big feelings is just part of what it means to be disabled in a world that is largely built by and

3:51:51for non disabled people. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that conversations like this one impact

3:51:57the disabled community in more ways than just legislative and in bigger areas than just our vote.

3:52:02They send bigger messages that impact our hearts and our mental health and our sense of belonging.

3:52:07On the flip side of those. This is my last sentence. Is that all right? Yep. Yep. Finish off.

3:52:14On the flip side of those difficult feelings. There have also been some really positive moments

3:52:18in this journey. I'm never going to forget how cool it felt to be able to independently vote in

3:52:232014 and I will never forget the next time I'm able to either or the people who helped me get there.

3:52:28I appreciate you all more than words can say. So I'll leave it there. But thank you for your

3:52:32decision earlier this month. It's another moment I won't forget and I hope you'll stand by that

3:52:36decision tonight. Thank you. Well, thank you, Lorela. I appreciate it very much. Let me go to

3:52:44Councillor Caron, please. Off to the delegate. You belong. You matter. And I know here tonight

3:52:55you were sharing your lived experience and in previous delegations you were in the role of

3:53:01the chair of the accessibility advisory committee. But I do know that you also have some security

3:53:07expertise and I'm wondering if you could add any other security information about online voting.

3:53:15You've heard all the delegates tonight with concern about security and I just wondered if you

3:53:19had anything to add to that discussion. Thank you. I find that far easier to talk about than my

3:53:27feelings honestly. Thank you through you Mayor Guthrie to Councillor Caron. I actually do have

3:53:34some thoughts on some of the security information that was brought forward by other delegates who

3:53:39share the same qualifications that I have. I don't work in academia so I can't claim to have

3:53:45authored any specific papers but aside from that I am a full-stack engineer as you know all my

3:53:50technical qualifications. Somebody earlier spoke up about chat GPT being used to teach people how

3:53:57to hack. That information was actually I believe edited out of that letter to the editor after

3:54:04the fact because it is measurably false. If anyone were to go to chat GPT and test that out it's

3:54:09pretty easy to see that chat GPT will not offer any information about hacking. There were some

3:54:15inconsistencies in some of the information I heard about the process available for in-person voting

3:54:20security. I personally every single time I have ever voted other than the time I voted online it

3:54:27has been I walked in with someone who was not asked any questions, was never asked to swear any oaths,

3:54:34was not asked what they were doing, came behind the screen with me, marked my ballot for me and

3:54:39then we left. I am confused why one earlier delegate mentioned that there are like oaths to be

3:54:46sworn and an ID to be shown because it has never ever happened and I voted every time I could.

3:54:53The other main one would be that I heard from Ms. Watson a very thoughtful delegation

3:55:01where she was concerned that staff may have missed some things in their report and I

3:55:08with a technical knowledge of the subject matter and with the conversations I've had with staff

3:55:14I can very confidently say that they did not miss anything. First of all I think the city of Guelph

3:55:19has exemplary clerks and just beyond capable staff and the five examples that were given in that video

3:55:29all five of them were not examples of online systems being hacked. A few of them were examples

3:55:35of something called penetration testing like for example the first video which was over a decade old

3:55:40I believe and was not for a municipal level election but it was about an online system where

3:55:46some students attempted to hack it. This is a process, it's a penetration testing type of process

3:55:54called white hat hacking where you will often hire hackers to try to hack a system and if they can

3:55:59successfully hack a system you now know where to fix that system. So those are very normal things

3:56:05to happen in the process of coding any piece of software at all and they were not specific to

3:56:11municipal elections. Staff were absolutely correct in their assertion that there has never been

3:56:16example of a hacked election in Ontario. I believe in all of Canada was their assertion and that's

3:56:22what I know to be true. There was discussion of a University of Guelph election but that was not

3:56:28a hacking that was a technical error where students couldn't log in and I believe we're

3:56:33offering we're looking to offer online voting as an advanced polling option which again is that would

3:56:39mitigate some of the risks if there was an issue to students or to voters being able to log in

3:56:44but again that was not a municipal level like government election that was an internal school

3:56:50student election that was run with I believe their own software. The UCP vote that was

3:56:57referenced as well there was a five-year long investigation into that and it was found that

3:57:02there was no fraud by the election company or there was no fraud by anyone. The claim was that

3:57:08people had signed others up using false emails and I believe that at the end of that very long

3:57:15lengthy investigation and court proceedings they found that even if that had happened people still

3:57:22would have needed to use their ID in order to get their pin to vote so that was all dismissed.

3:57:29So those examples were all difficult for me to sit through because I don't feel that they're

3:57:38accurate examples of things that the clerks have missed in terms of security but again I do have

3:57:44I know that some of the delegates tonight mentioned that I am the only one who believes this and the

3:57:49only technical specialist who feels this way but I am not I have many colleagues who feel this way

3:57:55as well and I think it's very easy to find people to delegate on either side of a topic if you look

3:58:01hard enough to yeah so those are my thoughts. Oh I did also want to say someone mentioned that the

3:58:08AAC disagreeing with clerks was dismissive in the last in the last meeting and I did want to say that

3:58:14the AAC is legislated to chime in on our opinions on these matters we never mean to be dismissive

3:58:20of clerks and our opinions are valid and are not a tail wagging a dog or a dog like we are

3:58:28legislated to have a voice on these topics because we deserve to have a voice and our

3:58:32opinions are valid so I did want to say that but sorry that was a long sorry.

3:58:38Well we've got a really big decision to make tonight so take the time you need to answer

3:58:42the questions thoroughly. My second and last question is I was one of the ones who voted

3:58:49against proceeding with internet voting in the last election and I did so for a whole host of

3:58:53reasons and some of these same reasons are being articulated tonight so I'm juggling with the

3:59:00with the same set of of arguments on both sides but one thing that I have heard has changed since

3:59:09the last election is blockchain technology and I am not a coder I am not an engineer I am not a

3:59:16computer scientist I will never profess to understand some of the language that were were

3:59:22were expected to understand to make this decision so I wonder if you could simplify for me blockchain

3:59:28technology and the ability for someone to go into and modify data or coding and the traceability of

3:59:40that in the advancements that have been made to blockchain since we last considered this decision

3:59:46four years ago so not going back 15 years ago because I know things have changed but in the last

3:59:51four to five years traceability is my understanding is significantly advanced and and and that's going

3:59:59to help me make my final decision tonight. Absolutely thank you for your question blockchain

4:00:06technology is definitely not the only advancement in anti-penetration protocols and cybersecurity

4:00:12protocols that have been updated in the past even year even six months but one thing that I found

4:00:20particularly interesting about blockchain technology which again I don't actually know if the vendors

4:00:25that we're looking into are implementing or using blockchain technology I do believe it's one of the

4:00:30current gold standards for online voting systems but online voting methods are very hesitant to

4:00:38tell us exactly what type of protocols they're using because that makes it easier for people to

4:00:43challenge those protocols right so we we may not know exactly which protocols they're using

4:00:50however yes blockchain technology is a newer idea that a lot of people associate with cryptocurrency

4:00:58for example it's basically where different blocks of data are connected in a chain so that any change

4:01:04made to any of these blocks of data is very directly it is impossible to change data without

4:01:13knowing who changed it and when and without like multiple multiple parties simultaneously agreeing

4:01:20to that change being made so it's just another another standard that's now being used in cyber

4:01:26security but there are many others too that that are being used and it's really difficult for me to

4:01:34explain blockchain without feeling like I'm being condescending to people or telling them things they

4:01:38might already know so I apologize if I'm doing that to anyone here that's okay I'm not interested

4:01:44more in the technical aspect I'm I'm interested in the traceability factor yeah incredibly traceable

4:01:51I personally don't believe that there is um I don't believe there is risk involved in the

4:02:01current protocols I know that anything technically could maybe somehow be hacked and that's one of

4:02:08the conversations that was had by some of the other cybersecurity experts that were brought back

4:02:12in 2018 on a panel that I spoke at at the city everyone kind of shared the opinion that we will

4:02:17never tell you something is secure because we are in cybersecurity we being they I'm not a

4:02:22cybersecurity specialist I'm a digital accessibility specialist with a background in cyber but so I

4:02:30I heard them all say that we will never tell you this is secure because that doesn't exist in our

4:02:36field that does not exist in our industry we nothing is ever 100 secure so I can't tell you

4:02:41that blockchain makes things completely traceable I can tell you that it is a huge leaps and bounds

4:02:46progress from what we've seen in the past I know some people have claimed you know there are also

4:02:51increases to like phishing attacks and things like that but phishing isn't isn't something that's used

4:02:58to hack online election systems like that's more like I clicked a link that was bad in an email

4:03:04and someone got access to my Facebook like there are different types of cybercrime and certainly

4:03:08cybercrime is advancing but absolutely the protections against it are advancing as well

4:03:15thank you those are all my questions thank you I think Councillor Busuttil had a question

4:03:24yes thank you Lorelai for your very passionate presentation I to have family members who are

4:03:34disabled I guess I don't know you very well if you can speak to because it was another delegation

4:03:41as well med meg Harding that talked about digital accessibility kind of specialist I'm not clear

4:03:48what exactly that is if you can expand a bit on that on that yeah certainly I have a background

4:03:55as an engineer so my my current roles are I work at a at a company in Guelph called Eagle's Flight

4:04:06I'm their digital accessibility specialist basically I'm making sure that all of their

4:04:10publicly facing content is accessible to people who want to use it who may have disabilities so it

4:04:17can be things like creating colorblind access for people who are colorblind or adding subtitles

4:04:23videos things things of that nature I also make sure that all of their internal systems are secure

4:04:29and accessible I've also worked with a variety of AAA game development studios in the past I've

4:04:37worked for a number of game developers in making their video games more accessible to users with

4:04:41disabilities I've and in those systems I absolutely have had much more of a background in security

4:04:48because the the level of cybersecurity anyone will tell you in the games industry is massive

4:04:55because leaks and things like that threaten their entire livelihood and are taken very seriously

4:05:01so that's for me I'm not actually aware of Meg's work or what she does but basically a digital

4:05:08accessibility specialist is someone with a background in some sort of engineering technology and is

4:05:13trying to make things more accessible to people with disabilities specifically things of a digital

4:05:19nature so some people it's websites some people it's video games some people it's online voting systems

4:05:25thank you for that and so you're a software engineer then yes okay thank you so I have a

4:05:31couple quick questions because for me this boils down into risk the big basket for me is risk

4:05:37and you know I put 16 years of my life into special education advisory committee for accessibility

4:05:44fnmi equity in the upper grand district school board as a school board so I have a couple quick

4:05:50questions is there a standard in Ontario for the development of online voting software

4:05:57I'm so sorry you cut out there for a second is there a standard and then you cut out

4:06:01in Ontario for online voting software development I'm not aware of a standard I know that earlier

4:06:10earlier delegates are aware of more specifically voting standards and I know that the clerk's

4:06:14office is aware of the the current standards available they've spoken to the AAC about it

4:06:20is there a certification body for online voting software I don't believe there is not in Ontario

4:06:27but I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm not a voting specialist okay and the next one is

4:06:33are you aware of any legislation anything that kind of wraps around online voting procedures

4:06:43you know there was a another delegate who talked I thought quite eloquently about the architecture

4:06:49for online voting as infrastructure are you aware of anything that kind of you know guides

4:06:56and secures because when we do things you know we want rules and procedures and standards and

4:07:02things like that are you aware of any of that yeah I know elections Canada has come out with some

4:07:07some guidelines I could pull them up I don't actually have them but I could email them to you

4:07:13I don't think that'll be helpful tonight um yeah I don't know what elections Canada those ones yeah

4:07:19I was just wondering if there was something a bit more specific I think that's that is kind of the

4:07:23standard that we're working with at this time thank you I'm glad that you know what it and also

4:07:28thank you for your work on the school board I'm aware of your accessibility advocacy there

4:07:32from previous years I appreciate it thank you that's that's all thank you all right well thank you I

4:07:40don't see any other questions so Laura lie thank you for your delegation tonight I would say more

4:07:46is just a uh uh you know an individual then in your role as the ACC chair like you did a committee

4:07:53so we appreciate that and thank you for your presentation thank you okay take care um okay

4:08:01everyone let's take a break okay um what time is it right now I can you can you can you can

4:08:08go ask it you know what I keep looking up there for the clock that used to be there you would think

4:08:13by now I would it wouldn't be there so it is 9 0 7 uh let's let's do let's do a let's do a

4:08:2113 minute break okay so 20 after 9 all right uh let's come back and we will get going on our

4:08:30decision thank you so much okay I'd like to call the meeting back to order please

4:22:05can you just confirm I have quorum there clerks yeah looks like we're good okay um

4:22:14um so let's get the motions up on the screen but over the break I was notified rightly that we may

4:22:29want to just switch the orders a little bit due to like if one section passes before another

4:22:37and so clerks have you put this up as is or have you changed anything this as is okay

4:22:44so could I just at least start by having someone move this for me and get it seconded and then on

4:22:52the floor counselor galler would be happy to move it counselor katin would be happy to second it thank

4:22:58you so what was just described to me during the break that I'll just say out loud here is uh some

4:23:04people I think I think rightly they the sorry everybody two things one a lot of people would

4:23:10like the all four to be split so I'm going to say yes to that okay so one two three four split

4:23:17however four is going to go before three and I think the reasoning which makes sense is

4:23:25that dependent on the outcome of number four that may choose how people vote for number three

4:23:33okay so is there any um any pushback to that I mean that makes sense to me okay so clerks would you

4:23:41mind in this moment uh while I go around the horseshoe uh you just kind of switching those one two

4:23:48three four uh into that order for us okay um let's stick to just remember our timing here everybody

4:23:59okay and I would like us to please stick to questions uh and if you have a question and you'd

4:24:07like to do a comment at the same time I'm cool with that okay what's just we can we can do that if

4:24:11if need be um let's try not to also ask a bunch of questions that may have already been answered

4:24:18either found in the report found through committee or found tonight or in any correspondence that

4:24:25we've been getting like if you know the answer let's let's try to just go off of that and I just

4:24:29want to say one thing I see you councillor it's all good I'll go to you I'll go to you first no problem

4:24:36for the because there was a couple of candidates or not candidates sorry a couple of delegates

4:24:41that I found maybe uh said a couple things tonight and also I even some correspondence over the last

4:24:47like two three weeks too it's just it is important for everybody to understand that our process

4:24:54is working perfectly right now we have committee committee is where we do heavy lifting debate

4:25:01you know move motions amendments whatever and between committee and council tonight is where

4:25:09we can get more informed have new information new discussions and so this process is working

4:25:17as it should and so that's why you may have people that said something at committee are

4:25:25looking at a new angle this way because they've been informed differently that process is exactly

4:25:30working as it should so I just want to make sure that that was stated because I think some people

4:25:34have thought like well you did it a few weeks ago you said this and so you should be doing it now

4:25:39on this and that's fair you can say that however the process that we have which is the right process

4:25:45allows forgive and take and and you know a little bit of differences between the beginning and the

4:25:52end this just happens to be the end now so I just want to make sure that was stated out loud because

4:25:57some people might think like oh we're changing our mind or a member of council is changing their

4:26:02mind they could and guess what that's the process like that's literally the process okay so I just

4:26:10want to make sure that that was stated up front with that councillor go I promise you I go to you

4:26:14first so let's make our questions quick and and let's keep moving along go far well your worship

4:26:21for the sake of process might I ask that we go ahead and vote in number one and two get those out

4:26:28of the way because I have questions about vote by mail that may no longer be relevant after we vote

4:26:34can we just throw up the that you might you might be on to something there can you just throw up the

4:26:37motions for everybody clerk's do you mind let's just see if we can wade through one at least one

4:26:46or two okay so the first one is that council approved the free wealth transit service and free

4:26:52parking at market park aid market market park aid on election day to support access and remove

4:26:58barriers to voting for the 2026 municipal and school board election I think you might be right

4:27:03councillor Goller everyone are we good to just call a vote on that one yes okay I'm going to do that

4:27:08right now is anyone against that number one no so that's unanimous okay perfect could you throw

4:27:16back up number two for me please number two is that council approve the use of vote tabulators

4:27:23in the 2026 municipal and school board election is there anything on that one that I feel like

4:27:29that one could also be voted on yep okay I'm going to call the vote is anyone against number two

4:27:36that's unanimous okay can you throw the screen back up for me here so this number three is now the

4:27:44new number three am I right clerks you fixed it okay that gulf city council directs the city clerk's

4:27:50office to offer internet voting as an alternative voting method for the 2026 municipal and school

4:27:55board elections subject to all security requirements and testing meeting the satisfaction of the city

4:28:01clerk I would imagine this one will have some nuances on it so councillor Goller is this the one

4:28:07that you wanted to ask a question on know your worship it's the next one but but go ahead now

4:28:12now that we've got here okay so you're good if I ask anybody else on number three okay is there

4:28:18any questions on number three or question or sorry or comments sorry did you want to number three

4:28:27like the last time I think I'd rather go to four first because of four passes then I just sent a

4:28:32motion that I'd like to see the vote my mail removed if internet voting passes no I think

4:28:40I think our clerks have changed it appropriately okay so you've already switched it around okay

4:28:46I got it they took the time to do that for us okay okay so you're you're good I think everyone's good

4:28:50on now the order which which talks to exactly what you're asking about yeah given that new

4:28:55information in the memo received yeah yeah okay so questions and if you want to throw in a comment

4:29:01I'm good councillor busetil for sure go go for it thank you um and thank you to the clerks for their

4:29:11follow-up memo section number 8.2.1 I just want to be very clear or have the clerks respond to me

4:29:21that if a council directs clerks to proceed with online voting that we are accepting the risk and

4:29:32can you define for me I know it was on page 11 I think of the original report but can you articulate

4:29:39what is the risk for me please through you mayor Guthrie to councillor busetil I mean yes I think

4:29:50councillor you you alluded to it correctly it's it's sort of that's the thrust of the report that

4:29:55that was provided at committee the whole we've talked about verifiability we've talked about the

4:30:00dependability we've talked about the reliability as sort of the sort of three kind of key factors

4:30:05that we evaluated that's where we believe the risk is it remains and so I can dive deeper into

4:30:15specifics if you have questions but I worry that I might meander a little bit no thank you and that's

4:30:21what I took away from the original report is that it is about risk and that if you could just

4:30:28if my understanding is is clear that the basis for the clerks not recommending online voting

4:30:36was due to an unacceptable level of risk yeah through you mayor Guthrie yes that's that's

4:30:47effect what we're saying I mean it's it's a risk with what we see to be a shrinking marketplace

4:30:51it's a risk with the verifiability and for lack of a better term auditability of of a process once

4:30:57it's concluded it's a risk of the reliability that we have when we look at the inherent and

4:31:06required linkages between an internet voting platform and other systems and those vendors and

4:31:12their reliance on other vendors that we don't have direct oversight over be that you know cloud-based

4:31:17server solutions or the data and transit bodies that are out there be you know internet service

4:31:23providers across Canada that are really are backbunded by the big three telcos in Canada so

4:31:29those are all the risks that we've identified with with online voting I might just and in your crystal

4:31:39ball for the future if standards were developed a certification body for online voting software

4:31:47you know legislation things like that is do you think that online voting could be something

4:31:54that might come back to municipal government elections in the future

4:32:00through you mr. mayor yes I think if we saw voting standards come into place that we could then

4:32:05provide to the market and say we require a platform that does and meets all these requirements and I

4:32:10think there's probably a good chance that there'd be a good degree of confidence that furthermore

4:32:15if we saw senior election authorities election administrators echo that and and implement that

4:32:23in trial or pilot methods we would see that as a as a positive step so yeah the short answer that is

4:32:29yes thank you my final question is about accommodation and can you speak to the clerk's department's

4:32:36commitment you know to accommodation your awareness your commitment in the clerk's department

4:32:44for accommodation through your mayor guthrie thank you for the question council boost until

4:32:50because again I we hear the same delegates that you hear and we have the same the same cause for

4:32:58pause when we hear that there's members are a community that feel they haven't been able to

4:33:02access voting and so what I can say is utmost commitment to accessibility we've gone so far as

4:33:10to work with individual electors to try and accommodate them in the in the most with the most

4:33:17dignity that allows them to access a voting system with the utmost level of of autonomy and independence

4:33:25I can give good examples of that from past elections our challenge is actually quite some frankly

4:33:30sometimes when we do have to rely on on folks that we train that are our colleagues in the community

4:33:34and they serve at voting locations and they may not be as comfortable as perhaps the folks you see

4:33:39here at the table with me to provide really direct levels of support and accommodation

4:33:47but that's the structure we have and that's the the the method we operate within we do a we do a

4:33:52an I think of an extremely admirable job of training those staff we depend on them

4:33:57significantly to staff those locations so there's sometimes is a bit of a disconnect I will acknowledge

4:34:03that between what we would see as the utmost accommodation and what might actually be delivered

4:34:08at a voting location but it's not for not working very diligently to ensure that every member of

4:34:14the election day staff is well trained and understands their responsibilities to make sure

4:34:19that that folks are accommodated when they when they attend to a voting location

4:34:25and just through the mayor thank you very much

4:34:29thank you councillor is there any other questions at all okay I'll go down and then or work please

4:34:36I'm sorry you can't give a comment here I mean this is kind of one of the main ones it's talking

4:34:41about internet voters so if you have a comment on this particular motion go ahead

4:34:46so just through you Mr. Mayor to the to Mr. O'Brien so the motion says like you're going to come back

4:34:53so there's certain security standards that that are being worked on some um for online voting is

4:35:01that what what I'm hearing that even though these are new vendors I I recognize that that you will

4:35:08be working with and if they can't meet these thresholds then you'll be coming back to us

4:35:13and will that be um how soon like how what what's the timing of that I think I might have said that

4:35:21the memo but I'm just sort of asking again but yeah thank you and through you mayor Guthrie

4:35:27so the the way that the motion is written currently it doesn't require an explicit report back but I

4:35:33mentioned it at committee the whole one we were with you earlier this month we will likely you

4:35:39will likely see a bylaw tabled at an upcoming council meeting enacting the decisions you make

4:35:45tonight what we first see happening is as we continue down the journey of engaging with the

4:35:50marketplace and some of those requirements that we highlighted in the memo for tonight's on tonight's

4:35:55agenda are the things that we will probe that market to make sure that they are able to respond

4:35:59to that and that they are able to meet those requirements if they are not or we don't get

4:36:05any responses to a call for proposals or something to that effect then as I mentioned earlier at the

4:36:11beginning of the month I foresee us then having to table a bylaw to then request that council repeal

4:36:17that that decision of alternate voting methods okay council is in the full authority to ask

4:36:24questions of those bylaws I don't want to preclude that but we I don't know if we foresee ourselves

4:36:29drafting a formal report I mean we we have to ultimately walk down this roadway a little bit

4:36:33until we see what what is sort of coming back from that call to the market so because we've

4:36:38already stated it's to your satisfaction about that sort of the decision our decision has been

4:36:44made if you're not satisfied then it's just a repeal of that bylaw through mr. mayor that's

4:36:49correct and it's we attempted in the memo that you see before you tonight to articulate what

4:36:54that satisfaction would look like okay yeah okay thank you councillor Busuttil I think when I

4:37:05mentioned that I was if someone wanted to say a comment I could see you on the screen saying like

4:37:10hey I've kind of forgot to do that do you do want me just to go to you right now then I'll go to

4:37:15councillor work want me to do that okay go ahead councillor Busuttil thank you thank you very much

4:37:20for that I kind of didn't didn't want to butt in again but um I guess for me uh you know at the

4:37:28risk of all the the comments thank you mayor for setting the tone you know being a risk a fair

4:37:35a verse and not fair and all these other things that I heard I I too am really passionate about

4:37:41this passionate about democracy passionate about if we're going to do this you know I really believe

4:37:49that we need the standards the certification that wrap around to to really provide that assurance in

4:37:58the democratic process you know and the vote and so on so I I can't I I don't feel comfortable I trust

4:38:06the clerks completely um but I think the wording of the motion it's very clear that council directs

4:38:16the city clerk's office and and quite honestly that original report uh met my threshold and and um

4:38:25you know I was comfortable and reassured by uh clerk's department's work on this around the risk

4:38:33and and I I just can't support this because of the lay of the land uh politically and things

4:38:41that are going on I would feel much better if there were the standards the certification of the

4:38:47software process you know um legislation somewhere that over that wraps around this so until that's

4:38:55there I I really honestly can't support this um because my experience also is has been with the

4:39:02municipal elections act when there have been inconsistencies and you know pork clerks you know

4:39:08as a candidate I'd be calling up and saying this is happening and it's about enforcement as well

4:39:15and the the monitoring of the process so I think we need to have that framework in in place

4:39:22before we we jump into this so I can't I can't support the motion okay thank you so much

4:39:30councillor Mr Tillings thank you for your comments and I'll now go to over to council or work

4:39:35uh thank you mayor Guthrie through you to staff I'm just wondering if you can explain to me on page

4:39:41four of your memo it says two vendors currently meet base security requirements that would allow

4:39:46internet voting to be offered similar to 2014 these require integration with the city's voters list

4:39:52database to offer two-step registration live voter strike off at the time an online ballot is cast

4:39:58and then there's another line about the city's voter list database provider has indicated that

4:40:02new integrations are not planned ahead of 2026 uh sheer ignorance on my part can you just help me

4:40:08understand what that means please of course through you mr mayor to councillor O'Rourke um

4:40:16two of the fundamental security requirements that we implemented in 2014 was you know two-step

4:40:23registration that requires that someone can check their information and verify it against the voters

4:40:28list and that requires integration between an internet voting platform and that database

4:40:34um and the other one that we were looking to uh apologies what was the second one

4:40:48apologies and the other item uh just ensures live voter strike off at the time that an individual

4:40:53casts a ballot online so again that integration is required so that at the time someone casts a

4:40:59ballot they are struck off the voters list such that they can't you know walk into a voting location

4:41:04moments later and then receive a second ballot so that integration is quite vital and only two

4:41:10vendors in the market that were aware of meet those base requirements at this time

4:41:16thank you and through you mr guthrey so clearly we've had conversations between committee the whole

4:41:20and now i spoke with a neighbor who's a cyber risk expert um he was saying you can't do the

4:41:27penetration testing just the one time it's only good for the one time you did the penetration

4:41:32testing you need to be doing threat assessment and penetration testing all the time is that what's

4:41:39foreseen in our approach and in the budget through you mr mayor um to counsel work that's a great

4:41:47question my initial thought goes to that i would be very reticent to be allowing even a third party

4:41:56security vendor to be testing a platform once it's live and so this is this is indicative of the

4:42:03other challenge we face is that these voting methods are not apples to apples comparisons

4:42:09and i'll give you a really good example when those tabulators are tested they're a not connected to

4:42:13any device in a voting location they're simply plugged into a wall um so they're not we don't

4:42:19we don't download and modem the data back to city hall or anything to that effect so what we do

4:42:23do is when when we receive those tabulators from the vendor we we set up a process that is that is

4:42:29quite frankly viewable viewable by candidates there's that there's the ability to scrutinize the

4:42:33process so to speak of how we conduct logic and accuracy testing once those devices are tested

4:42:39from a lock logic and accuracy standpoint we lock them away under very tight security controls

4:42:47double access doors they are not accessible by anyone

4:42:51corporately other than city clerk staff and there is a great degree of security we place on that and

4:42:57we're able to do that because then that then that testing and the outcomes of that testing is almost

4:43:01embargoed you're quite right that that testing a live system a platform online voting platform

4:43:08ought to require us to have that ongoing threat risk assessment penetration testing denial of

4:43:14service testing that we would want to do but once we deploy those voting tabulators in the voting

4:43:19location it's election day and and they're out there they've they've only ever come to us gone

4:43:25through logic and accuracy testing been sequestered and then deployed we would want to offer something

4:43:31similar to that on online voting and I don't think that we would have the ability to allow for example

4:43:35ongoing threat risk assessment in the full sense of what that means in a live voting environment

4:43:42we would be getting updates from a vendor about any threats that may come across but the ability for us

4:43:48to really um levy a full degree of threat risk assessment while voting is being conducted on

4:43:54a live platform an online voting platform I think would pose some challenges for vendors I'm not sure

4:43:59I don't know we would have to determine that through the market I don't know if vendors would

4:44:02be able to deliver on that okay thank you um so I have a comment Marga three so I want to support

4:44:10online voting to provide accessibility disabled people deserve I absolutely do and many delegates

4:44:15ask us not to discount their lived experience I do not I have huge respect for chair root

4:44:21and her passionate advocacy regarding online voting and in his correspondence Dr Shelley wrote

4:44:27if accessibility were the only consideration then there would be no objection to adoption of e-voting

4:44:33I think everybody wants that level of accessibility but it's not the only consideration so we heard

4:44:39from Mr Brunet who's an expert that the standards are in development in Ontario there are no provincial

4:44:44standards and no certification just this April so it's very recent the province of Quebec

4:44:50ended their e-voting project to test internet voting during the 2025 municipal elections

4:44:55elections Quebec said the companies that answered a call for 10 years to set up their infrastructure

4:45:00were not able to meet the necessary requirements and that their pilot project in 21 municipalities

4:45:06was always conditional on having a reliable secure and accessible solution neither elections Canada

4:45:12nor elections Ontario currently allow online voting and neither do the cities of Ottawa or Toronto

4:45:18the city of Toronto again recently indicated there's no internet voting service that can

4:45:23guarantee security ballot secrecy and vote integrity and so internet voting will not be an option for

4:45:28the 2026 election all of these electoral agencies want full participation from everybody in their

4:45:37communities and they are finding that the trade-off in terms of security of the online voting

4:45:45is not where it needs to be that that security is just not there so when our motion says per

4:45:50the satisfaction of the city clerk we're asking our clerk's office to do more than the province of

4:45:56Quebec was able to do until very recently the city of Toronto have already done and they found no

4:46:02secure options so at our May 7th committee meeting in the hall I voted against the amendment to add

4:46:08the online voting but I supported the package of recommendations at the end of the meeting because

4:46:12it was clearly the will of council I wanted to be hopeful I wanted to say clerks go and give it a

4:46:16shot and I've had a number of conversations with people spoken with accessibility people and cyber

4:46:23risk folks and of course I'm listening tonight and I know some of my constituents believe that my

4:46:28concerns are valid but overstated but others are concerned about the integrity of the outcome of the

4:46:34election a number of seniors were concerned that phishing could direct them to even if they hadn't

4:46:39signed up for online voting their concern phishing could direct them to the wrong place

4:46:43and it's a real concern and all of those concerns together the lack of cohesion and standards means

4:46:48it underlines I undermines the trust in the entire process so like Councillor Bousatel until

4:46:54there's greater confidence and validation in the end-to-end process I won't support this motion

4:47:00okay thank you and is there any other questions or comments on this particular one before I call the

4:47:05vote okay let's go with uh sorry Carly I was about to call them yeah Carine and then that Kate

4:47:17thank you yeah I was one of the ones who voted against it the last the last election for all the

4:47:22all the reasons that have been outlined I I think what I've learned tonight I'm trying to weigh the

4:47:28balance of security versus accessibility and that those are really the two the two

4:47:35things we're trying to balance in our decision making tonight the one thing I did learn

4:47:39over the course of the last month since the report came out since it came to committee the whole and

4:47:43since we've been here tonight is that there is no such thing as an election that is 100% risk-free

4:47:50mail-in phone-in in person online there's no such thing as a risk-free election

4:47:57so you know I'm just trying to balance the risks as I'm making my decision right down to the wire

4:48:03um and and those two things are you know they're at the 50-50 mark for me um but the motion

4:48:14includes a clause to the satisfaction of the clerk which I trust our clerk I have full confidence

4:48:21that they will go out and look at the two remaining that remaining vendors with a lens to the issue

4:48:28that we've identified which is which is risk of security um but I'd like to see that work done

4:48:33before we close the door on this issue okay thank you so much uh Councillor Katelyn and then Alt

4:48:43I appreciate the passion from all the delegates uh for a secure and accessible election

4:48:47I don't think anyone is against voter security or accessibility but I would be remiss not to call

4:48:52out the ableism I've seen in some of the online community conversations questioning and and

4:48:57individuals access means or validity of their disability when our diverse committee of people

4:49:02with lived experience appointed to advise us on accessibility has explained that the existing

4:49:08options are not a one-size-fits-all situation is not okay we can all care about security without

4:49:13going down that road I appreciate that staff and council have not done that no voting method is

4:49:19without risk clerks have wrapped each method and process and respond each term to issues that arise

4:49:25to make it more robust and accessible there are 217 municipalities who used online voting

4:49:31in Ontario in the last election and the sky has not fallen the worry about potential for risk is

4:49:36not a way harms created by existing access needs not being met we need to wrap online voting and

4:49:42process just like we would any other method and treat it with a risk tolerance that acknowledges

4:49:47the right to vote is paramount a write-up about proposed election process for online voting on

4:49:52the elections Canada website stood out to me on the topic of verification they said while adequate

4:49:58steps should be taken to ensure that those using an online voting system are in fact entitled to vote

4:50:03the Supreme Court of Canada has found that overly onerous steps and perfection are not a requirement

4:50:08the system strives to achieve accessibility for all voters making special provision for those

4:50:14without identification to vote by vouching election officials are unable to determine with absolute

4:50:19accuracy who's entitled to vote whole third do not take fingerprints to establish identity a voter

4:50:24can establish Canadian citizenship verbally by oath the goal of accessibility can only be

4:50:29achieved if we are prepared to accept some degree of uncertainty that all who voted were entitled

4:50:34to do so and then they have the case name and I'm not going to be able to pronounce that name so I'm

4:50:38not going to try equity matters and I appreciate everyone's consideration as we balance rights

4:50:45with uncertainties that can be mitigated with standards and process human rights should not

4:50:51only exist for those privileged enough to hire lawyers it is our place to ensure that happens

4:50:57right now thanks thank you councillor alton thank you very much mayor guthrie I wasn't going to speak

4:51:05but but I think it is important to consider a couple of things the first and the foremost is

4:51:10that I believe that this is a decision that we as a council must make and I appreciate that we are

4:51:15going to be if this is successful referring it to clerks but I think in some senses that responsibility

4:51:21lies here right now and I believe that I that this is such an important decision and as councillor

4:51:28karan said it's a it's a decision where it's a 50 50 50 50 decision for some people that I cannot

4:51:35support this I think it's incredibly important the issue of equity and accessibility is one that

4:51:41certainly the supreme court and any other court can weigh in on but it's very very clear that courts

4:51:45determine issues not based necessarily on the absolute letter of the law but also on possibilities

4:51:55and potentials there is no assurance that any court decision would go one way or the other

4:51:59there is however some assurance that cyber crime is going to continue to occur and it is occurring

4:52:06more often now than it has in 2014 when we first used this and when I first supported it I believe

4:52:13it's absolutely imperative to guarantee to the people of Guelph that whatever method of voting

4:52:19that we use that we have made the utmost effort to ensure that it is safe and secure and I I liken

4:52:27this to a barn and I liken it to barn doors the more doors that you open the more capacity there

4:52:34is for the horse to bolt I'm not prepared to open more doors at this point I am going to vote against

4:52:39this okay thank you so much for your statement too is there anybody else before I call the vote on this

4:52:47nope it doesn't look like it okay well I've got just a couple things to say and then I'll call the

4:52:52vote then I I just want to say that there's some of my colleagues here are you know they're stated

4:52:59that they're not going to vote for it but I just want to say out loud these colleagues I know full

4:53:05well care about the accessibility of people in the community so any kind of narrative out there

4:53:10that they don't is is is ill advised and and not correct and I just I just want I just want that to

4:53:18be really really clear so sometimes we can be put into these camps and it's completely unfair

4:53:24there is some validation that has come from like counselor boost until counselor or counselor alt

4:53:30or maybe some others here that might want to not vote for it that I also too can't dismiss

4:53:36either I mean a reasonable person I think I am sees sees the different elements that is here on

4:53:43this issue but I will just reiterate what I said at at the committee which for me is flowing to this

4:53:52moment now which is there is risk I'm comfortable with the tolerance of that risk to date and

4:54:00with the way the motion is worded that there's more to come because there's going to be some

4:54:04some testing and some suitability of the methods through the clerk's office whom I also trust

4:54:11and so that's where I land on this but I think it's important that I I I stick up for if I could

4:54:17say that for my colleagues that may be different just to reiterate that they they too care very

4:54:24deeply about the process the system democracy accessibility and you know I just I just kind

4:54:32of want to go to bat for them because there has been a lot of narratives between sort of the

4:54:38beginning of this month and today about putting people into camps and and I have not seen that

4:54:46at all from any members of council or staff I think that's been reiterated by someone else who said

4:54:51that but it's out there in the community and and so I just want to you know as the mayor just kind

4:54:57of jump on that a little bit just to kind of try to bring some unity together on the issue

4:55:02no matter where we land on a particular vote so thank you thank you for letting me me state that

4:55:09of course I am in favor of course that risk tolerance I talked about I'm comfortable with it

4:55:15and I think this is for me the right decision to be forward and I'm hoping that things are

4:55:22to the satisfaction of the clerk so that we can offer this for people in the 2026 election

4:55:30with that I will call the vote then so is anyone against this one so I'll go

4:55:38Boussatil and Richardson and then Alt and then O'Rourke okay I want to make sure that's that's

4:55:47that okay so that one passes and then let's put up number four if you don't mind now this isn't

4:56:05this is also kind of an important one as well yeah let me just read it out loud and then I'll go to

4:56:11you okay councillor O'Rourke yeah hold on I gotta go up here because it's blocked off at the bottom

4:56:15that's why I kept missing councillor Richardson when she had her hand up earlier because the

4:56:21the text at the bottom blocked her off that council approved the use of vote by mail

4:56:28and vote from home as the alternative voting method for the 2026 municipal and school board

4:56:34elections so let's just concentrate on this one if you'll recall this was

4:56:41sort of a last minute discussion we had at committee we got a little bit of a memo as a

4:56:47in between that as well and I know that councillor Downer has an amendment too so I did see councillor

4:56:54Alt's hand go up but before I go to you did you want to say something Stephen yes thank you

4:56:58mr. mayor and through you to council I don't know where council wants to go on this we're

4:57:02certainly supportive of however council wishes to proceed given the passage of the last motion

4:57:09around satisfaction of myself and our team I'm just mindful of this if this was to be defeated

4:57:17then you know would there be some wording that council might consider so that if we were to come

4:57:21back to say that internet voting wasn't to the satisfaction that we could add something back

4:57:26in so I I admit I'm not in the center there to help you out with with wording of that someone

4:57:31is very capable of doing that I just I just put that out there for council to consider and contemplate

4:57:38I go to councillor Allt I'm seeing a couple hands go up here can I just ask what your intent is on

4:57:42your amendment councillor Downer just because I think that we've just good context as we move forward

4:57:47so it was to remove the vote by mail just you know because we've got a memo that talks about

4:57:53the extra cost of it I have questions also about the security of vote by mail actually and about

4:57:58people understanding thinking that they voted that they haven't um and but given what

4:58:06um quirk o'Brien says um I would probably change it to something like if council approve

4:58:18vote by mail sort of in the event that internet voting isn't available and vote from home as an

4:58:25alternative voting method something like that just I don't know if that works maybe I would I would

4:58:30change the wording yes that addresses what uh Stephen o'Brien just said so could I leave that

4:58:35with you as a moment as I just kind of go around the room a little bit because as I recall and I

4:58:40don't want to put words into councillor Allt's mouth but I think yeah I felt what he said that

4:58:43committee was was warranted was this too is another option and so I think I think we need to uh

4:58:51debate and discuss that as well so go ahead councillor Allt thank you mayor guthrie in fact I

4:58:55was going to make comments uh to that effect uh I think it's very important that council does support

4:59:01this because as we've already said we're unanimous in believing that accessibility is important

4:59:06what we have done in the last motion is disagree on a method uh mail ballots provide people who

4:59:14are perhaps uh not uh able to use a computer uh or not willing to use a computer with another

4:59:20alternative they might actually like to keep postman employed for all I know I don't really know

4:59:24but nonetheless if we are recognizing that we're looking at accessibility the issue should never

4:59:30be cost the issue should be accessibility to voting and consequently we must leave this open

4:59:37for those who uh are fearful of uh casting their vote on a computer or just don't want to do it and

4:59:44don't have the opportunity to get to the polls okay and then uh Roderick I'm sorry councillor

4:59:50alt I haven't moved it I haven't moved it yet so no I know no I didn't I didn't speak to the most

4:59:55to the currently right now if you could put the motion back up I just want to make sure we're

4:59:59we're literally 95 yards down the the field here everybody so I want to try to make sure we

5:00:05get over the finish here that council approve so currently on the floor is that we are approving

5:00:12now the memo stated hey if you do the internet voting you might want want to do this and the

5:00:16costs and the capacity and stuff like that councillor Allt's position is to actually embrace number

5:00:22four to not change it and to say like no you know what we should we should approve it um as well as

5:00:29the fact that we just approved uh internet voting as well and he's he's given his reasonings I got I

5:00:35must say I tend to lean towards what councillor Allt is saying so um what I could maybe do is why don't

5:00:41we just test the waters if you don't mind councillor Goller just trying to move it along

5:00:45why don't we test the waters on council downer's uh amendment because um let's see if we can get a

5:00:51seconder for that actually I haven't moved it yet I know so let's see I'm not moving it you're not

5:00:55going to no I'm not going to okay just given um Mr. O'Brien what are you saying I I think there's

5:01:02probably going to be a time issue we might as well just prepare for both um let's let Steven

5:01:10address that that's a good question go ahead through you mr. mayor um I mean certainly if council

5:01:15approves that number four motion as written then it will stand we will offer all of those methods we

5:01:20you will see a corresponding budget request increase I think that's that's a fair statement and I

5:01:26think councillor Allt sort of alluded to council's contemplations around that um it certainly does

5:01:33give a little bit of um for lack of a term a bit of security for council I believe and if if we get

5:01:38to the point where the market's not really coming back with a with a positive response on the

5:01:43availability of internet voting to the standards that we might all expect and want then we would

5:01:48simply remove internet voting as a method and we would fall back on this motion should it pass

5:01:52that vote by mail and vote from home be offered so could I ask a question I know this is probably in

5:01:57your purview as the returning officer and not something we can dictate or anything but even

5:02:03that 10 percent of the ballots didn't make it back that were mailed out people thought they

5:02:10put it in the mail they came in afterwards and I know that's true with the federal that happens a

5:02:16lot I don't know what the stats are but um is there any way that it can you can lengthen the time

5:02:25the deadline for when they have to mail it in because I think it's just five days or a week I

5:02:30don't know what it is but it's I mean the reliability on Canada Post to get that ballot back to the

5:02:38returning office is not always the best yes through you mayor Guthrie so this is tied

5:02:47interestingly to some advocacy positions we've had as a sector with the with the government of

5:02:51Ontario they've moved nomination day that severely limits our ability to get ballots produced so

5:02:57we're beholden by a date that's set by the provincial government on on when when we can have

5:03:03ballots nominations conclude and when we can have ballots prepared we've been very strong as a sector

5:03:08in advocating for that to move back earlier in the term what I will say is we do take

5:03:14what I would call extra steps to ensure that electors can get those ballots back to us so

5:03:18we had some questions from members of council we do allow folks to return vote by mail kits

5:03:22in person to city hall if they so choose that can be in person during voting hours we have a secure

5:03:28and safe drop box that's monitored by city of golf security 24 7 where electors can cast those

5:03:35those vote by mail kits at the drop box out here at city hall so and we could investigate other

5:03:40opportunities you're quite right that it's within our purview to maybe offer that at some other

5:03:44facilities in the city that's something we could look at but it doesn't it doesn't diminish the fact

5:03:50that if you're an elector that's out of province or out of country and you're relying on your on

5:03:54vote by mail to cast a ballot we're really beholden by the timelines that are set by the

5:03:59government of Ontario as to when ballots can be produced and so that that's sort of the shortened

5:04:05short story just for those online there seems to be some heads nodding in the room around maybe

5:04:13letting number four just stand but I see a question from councillor goller and then and then councillor

5:04:19warwick okay go ahead goller thank you through your worship to the clerk's office one of the

5:04:25main concerns that I've heard from delegates about vote by mail is the envelopes and that some

5:04:31people have reactions to them is there an ability to have to maybe ask people if they want to late

5:04:37text free envelope is that something that could be implemented for these elections through Mary Guthrie

5:04:43I think we would look to procure envelopes that are

5:04:48that are as accessible as possible I will admit that you know I hearing from some of the delegates

5:04:53today about you know rubber bands or elastic bands in a voting location and how severe some

5:04:59anaphylactic reactions can be just by being exposed to that I I'm very concerned about that myself

5:05:05but it's certainly something we can evaluate as we go through the process we will look to mitigate

5:05:11and reduce as much barriers to access voting be it with with the envelopes that we procure to use

5:05:17for vote by mail kits and any other aspect that we we look at so we will certainly look into it and

5:05:23absolutely be considering it based on what we've heard tonight okay thank you very much thank you

5:05:28thank you worship thanks councillor and arourke please

5:05:32thanks Mary Guthrie through you to Mr. Brian so it's my understanding that we already have kits

5:05:38vote by mail kits remaining from 2022 right so it's the least expensive voting method that we have

5:05:43is that correct through you mr. yeah in terms of equipment probably certainly the least expensive

5:05:51it is it is time as miss Osborne can attest to she was instrumental in ensuring that those

5:05:57got out in a timely manner and it is a tedious manual process we opted to ensure that we could

5:06:03fulfill those packages in-house because it gives us a higher degree of control and it may give us a

5:06:08higher degree of control over some of the aspects that councillor Goller just raised okay and so

5:06:13mayor Guthrie just a comment I feel strongly that we should retain the vote by mail option in part

5:06:18because some of the commentary from accessibility advocates there are people who are housebound

5:06:24who have limited mobility who will trust a vote by mail option more so than an online option

5:06:30and I think it's an important alternative for those folks thank you for that is there anything

5:06:38further than a number four as it stands no I see some head shaking shaking so yeah I just I just

5:06:45sorry very quickly I voted I think I voted differently on this at the committee but I was I

5:06:53know I was kind of hesitant because of what councillor Allt brought up at committee originally

5:06:57about this issue so I'm glad we're we've kind of landed on the discussion with this so I think

5:07:01we should we should maintain it that's my position so I'll call the vote is anyone against number four

5:07:09no okay so that's good that covers that off so anything further on this matter at all no okay

5:07:16good we are done with that thank you that was a respectful and good discussion