Schedule A of the Development Application Fee Bylaw be amended to include the “Estimated cost of a parking space” and the “Payment-in-lieu of Off-street Parking application…

1:44:37parking policy 2024-42 and we start with two delegations there's no staff presentation

1:44:49no okay so uh Doug Manette is he on the line or yes madam chair he is on the line just needs to

1:45:00just needs camera on okay hello mr manette all right you have delegated before but so you know

1:45:09the drill we'll put five minutes on the timer you will hear a chime when there are 30 seconds

1:45:14remaining and um and so that is your your clue and then you'll hear another chime when your time is up

1:45:21okay and then you want to stay on the line because members of council may have some questions for you

1:45:26thank you counsel arourke and the rest of council um uh yes i i'm going to do a power

1:45:32point presentation um and uh so we'll just we'll start at this slide right here uh i'm speaking

1:45:40today on two related issues passion lue and infrastructure redesign of windows street

1:45:46and st georgia square and i'm doing this on behalf of patrons of guelphs downtown and the

1:45:52businesses that they support think of my presentation as an important addition to understanding

1:45:59transportation in the city and how it should influence infrastructure policy i felt that

1:46:05decision making without thorough understanding about why and how people make transportation

1:46:11decisions these decisions um would be a serious impediment to good policy making uh next slide

1:46:18please so the study uh oh sorry leave it this this one here uh the study so this study uh i was emailed

1:46:29to uh 27197 recent uh bookshelf customers from all over the city um 1260 recipients opened the study

1:46:39email and 888 recipients completed that survey which was a pretty good response in addition to

1:46:48answers about transportation decisions participants were asked to provide age group gender and postal

1:46:54code the survey asked about trip decisions for different categories of trip food shopping

1:47:00retail and services restaurants bars and cafes entertainment employment professionals and the

1:47:07library questions were also asked about trip frequency and positive and negative influences

1:47:13for those transportation choices in other words things like uh taking care of children

1:47:19mobility issues heavy bags parking the environment and weather next slide please

1:47:27so who participated uh 75 of the the people who uh participated in the survey were women

1:47:3425 were men 61 lived less than three kilometers from downtown 39 lived more than three kilometers

1:47:43from downtown 43 percent were under the age of 45 38 were 45 to 64 and 19 percent were like me

1:47:5265 and older so a pretty pretty uh divergent group of people next slide please so what are the

1:48:00main factors that influence downtown's transportation choices so one of them is distance from the

1:48:06downtown uh if i'm if i if i was looking at that part of the survey uh the trip to uh destination

1:48:13and the constraints for transportation choice for that particular activity um so and different

1:48:20trips you will see in the upcoming slides really change people's transportation choices uh next

1:48:26slide please so uh one of the categories that i had in the uh in in my survey was visits to the

1:48:35library if you lived close to the downtown in other words less than three kilometers in this

1:48:41first slide you will see a repeating pattern of walking followed by vehicle use followed by other

1:48:46methods of transportation please note the green choices favored by by those who live near the

1:48:53downtown so we have lots of people walking we have a few people on bicycles um but uh

1:49:01down to people who live downtown going to the library they're pretty green next slide side please

1:49:08but notice the huge shift um when you you look at people living further away from the downtown

1:49:16all of a sudden it's mainly vehicular and you'll also notice there's a large orange element of

1:49:22which is the never and uh one of the things that was noted in a recent library uh survey that they

1:49:29did of their users was finding out why people didn't come uh and one of the one of the foremost

1:49:36reasons was parking next slide please so uh retail services so you'll see again downtown people are

1:49:44pretty green they really walk downtown um and i was surprised that even when you get out to the

1:49:52the uh the distance the three kilometer distance there were still people walking uh you'll see a

1:49:58little bit of bicycle use but then you'll see a chunk of vehicular use um and i suspect that has

1:50:04to do with um those ulterior uh issues that come up that i mentioned earlier next slide please

1:50:12so and then people when they live outside the downtown um look at the dramatic shift in how

1:50:19people get downtown there are some people who were never remember this was a bookshelf survey

1:50:25and we were doing delivery um so some of these people said they didn't come at all

1:50:29but the people who did come primarily came by car uh van or truck um you'll see uh bicycle use was

1:50:37almost non-existent next slide please so for food shopping uh so mr. Manette um that's the time for

1:50:48five minutes okay um i'm going to ask my council colleagues if they have any questions

1:50:55but i am going to provide direction that the questions really do have to be about the um

1:51:01park cash payment for parking in lieu policy that's in front of us we do have to treat each

1:51:05agenda item separately so i'll see i see a question from councillor Goller

1:51:11thank you very chair O'Rourke um mr. manette thank you very much for the presentation um

1:51:16and for letting us know what your customer said could you please help me understand how this relates

1:51:21to the uh cash in lieu of payment or a payment in lieu of parking policy absolutely yeah

1:51:27councillor Goller my apologies for running too long um it has to do with it because cash in lieu

1:51:35it's setting up a cash in lieu method act you know even if it's the proposed number of $60,000

1:51:41cash in lieu actually cash in lieu reduces the power parking supply so while the while council

1:51:48has been reducing the ratios of parking spaces for built units um and offering cash in lieu as an

1:51:56option for not doing it it basically puts additional pressure on the existing parking supply and

1:52:04referring to the the slides that i showed you um it shows you the importance of that parking

1:52:12for for people who support the downtown if you don't have that parking all of those people the

1:52:20the what was it 30 39 percent of the respondents to that survey um you're basically reducing where

1:52:26they can park when they come into downtown so cash in lieu is extremely important and the other

1:52:33point i would make uh councillor is that uh cash in lieu um it has to be held in an S grow up

1:52:40account if you're going to collect that amount from developers when they are under building

1:52:48which is fine if that's the way it's going to go but also i'm sorry can you repeat your last

1:52:54sentence replacing the parking that they are not with mr minette i'm sorry yes i will the audio

1:53:00was a bit garbled could you repeat your last sentence please yes i will so it's extremely

1:53:07important that cash in lieu be held in escrow for the specific purpose of of replacing parking

1:53:16that has been under provided by a developer um because otherwise we're basically uh robbing

1:53:26from the existing supply um and that's not good um and and so that's why it's extremely important

1:53:33councillor would you okay thank you for that mr minette now just so that i'm clear when i read

1:53:39this policy i see it as a way to unlock all of those second story uh spaces that could be

1:53:45turned into apartments but are currently maybe not not used as that so many buildings have

1:53:51second story commercial now there's an interest to turn some of those into units and if it's just

1:53:56one two three four units and then you know as as per the report uh they would be asked to pay and

1:54:02i'll ask staff to clarify about 7500 per unit per parking spot they're not providing uh instead of

1:54:10just not being able to build those those apartments so in that case i'm knowing that there is no on

1:54:16street parking allowed overnight in the downtown uh do you think that that would still take away

1:54:23from from the folks or if someone is providing um apartments on the second story would that really

1:54:29not be competing with the downtown businesses i i think um certainly sharing parking supply to me

1:54:39is always the smartest thing whether it's under the new library so in other words if that is a

1:54:44shared space between visitors to the residential that's going to be done in the air or in the case

1:54:53of those second unlocking those second floor apartment opportunities absolutely it's a smart

1:55:00way of doing it and and and to me yeah the important thing is is that we we we find a way

1:55:08regardless of what the nuance is to make it sure that we don't lose the parking spaces

1:55:15that are needed for retail and service customers thank you thank you for that thank you chair

1:55:21or okay were there any other questions from counselors for mr minette

1:55:28oh i see counselor billings go ahead counselor billings

1:55:33there uh one of your proposed recommendations for for council is that the funds we receive

1:55:41from the development community is reserved for adding parking capacity however the recommendation

1:55:48from staff is some of those funds to be used for transportation demand management initiatives

1:55:56so why do you have an issue with respect to using some of those funds for the transportation

1:56:02demand initiatives thank you counselor billings for that question the reason i would say that

1:56:11is because uh cash in lieu for parking is because it's an acknowledgement that you

1:56:18aren't providing the parking that would normally be required under zoning and planning and and to

1:56:25transfer it and and as you see from the charts because all of you on council have my complete

1:56:30presentation you can see the implications of that to people using the downtown and you'll see that the

1:56:38the amount of money that or the number of people that actually use public transit coming downtown

1:56:43is very tiny it's single digit and a small single digit and so therefore to me in some ways

1:56:51it would be flying in the face of what the cash in lieu is supposed to be replacing

1:56:57if if it is used for transit instead of being used for upcoming need to replace parking

1:57:04okay thank you for that okay i don't see any additional questions thank you very much your

1:57:13delegation mr minette okay we also have a delegation from chris grace and gato as well as

1:57:22correspondence mr grace and gato same rules apply you'll get five minutes you'll hear a time when

1:57:33you have 30 seconds remaining in a second time when your time is expired turn on oh it's on sorry

1:57:41this is my first time so great to be here thank you very much um see i'm chris grace and gato i am

1:57:46i've been a resident since um 2016 and i'm here on behalf of the glove coalition for active

1:57:51transportation um i'm going to focus my delegation on this issue of the payment in lieu policy um

1:57:57specifically i'll be speaking about the problems of using the money um from this payment in lieu

1:58:02just for municipal parking um so building more parking uh i will just encourage more people to

1:58:10drive and that's not what we want to do in this city so this is the principle of induced demand and

1:58:15what i mean by induced demand is uh normally induced demand is used is applied to adding new roads or

1:58:21new lanes two roads and so these new lanes and these new roads they just encourage more people to drive

1:58:28because the costs to driving are initially reduced um now adding parking also works exactly the same

1:58:36way as adding new roads or new new lanes so when there are more when there is more parking more

1:58:42people drive um but also induced demand also works for active transportation walking and cycling

1:58:49and public transit so if transit and active transportation are safe convenient and fast

1:58:56people will regularly just choose transit and active transportation over driving

1:59:01so again another thing i want to point out is thinking about this induced demand for transit

1:59:05and active transportation the tripped constraints that dog minette talks about in his presentation

1:59:11which were which uh those sorry those trip constraints um are not necessarily children

1:59:17mobility issues uh heavy bags or lack of time in fact there are many easy and relatively

1:59:23inexpensive solutions to those challenges so those include electric cargo bikes um tricycles

1:59:28mobility scooters and also just good transit um so in reality those trip constraints are that

1:59:36biking is really quite unsafe in the city um i i bike a lot and i don't particularly feel safe

1:59:42i would love more people to bike i want people to feel safe on their bikes um and also the transit

1:59:48system is not frequent enough in our city and it's still slow so what i'm asking in general is invest

1:59:54in transit and active transportation don't invest in more parking in the city in the city um and then

2:00:01i also want to point out that because investing in active transportation and public transit has

2:00:07the same effect as cars are transporting people downtown the necessity of building more municipal

2:00:14parking parking that is likely just to sit mostly empty is greatly reduced so to end uh because

2:00:21driving is so damaging to our economic health of our city and to the physical and mental health

2:00:26of our individuals and our community and the city sorry the city should be encouraging people to

2:00:31take public transit or walk or cycle and specifically uh the graph correlation for active transportation

2:00:38encourages the city to use the money from this parliament and new policy exclusively for transit

2:00:44and active transportation projects and with that thank you very much well you have time to spare

2:00:51that was impressive thanks very much uh are there any questions from councillors councillor chou go ahead

2:00:58thank you through you ma'am chair um thank you for the delegation uh can you just explain to

2:01:03members in the audience what induced demand means just in more simplistic terms yeah for sure so

2:01:09i guess what it means is so let's take the example of you add a new lane um what happens is what most

2:01:15people think is we add a new lane that adds more capacity so the existing numbers of cars kind of

2:01:20like water going through a pipe um will just run faster but that's actually not the case because humans

2:01:26are complex beings we make decisions like every single day and we make different decisions depending

2:01:30on the context within a new context so when we add a new lane what actually happens is people people

2:01:36who may have already taken a trip or who may not have taken that trip because it's slow

2:01:41because there's too much traffic are now like oh now i'm just going to take that trip

2:01:44also what happens is develop developers will change where they might place their um where they

2:01:50where they might place their housing and usually if it's next to roads it will have much more cars

2:01:55whereas that also works for kind of more active transportation and transit

2:02:00if we invest in that transit and in that cycling infrastructure people would be like oh actually

2:02:05this is a good solution this is convenient for me this is fast i'm going to choose this decision

2:02:09i'm going to choose this way of walking or cycling or um or taking transit and also that

2:02:14influences what the developers where the developers place their um where they want to be and what they

2:02:19use in terms of their storage for parking or for bicycle infrastructure or transit so essentially

2:02:26it's the induced demand is an economic term saying that um when we when we reduce especially when it's

2:02:31free um then that will change what that what people demand out of that and usually what happens is

2:02:37congestion is always there um so adding more parking adding more lanes is not going to solve

2:02:44our problems yeah okay any other questions looking on the screen to my right to my left

2:02:53thank you very much for your delegation sir all right council that is it for delegations and so

2:03:00it's back to us for questions to staff and i can start a speaker list any questions for staff

2:03:07mayor Guthrie and council cron well thank you would you like me to place the recommendation

2:03:15first on the floor before we start with questions we certainly can't sure do you have a seconder

2:03:22yeah i don't know if i'll support it but i'll put it on the floor

2:03:25council richardson will second thank you okay there you go just to be more formal about it

2:03:30may i just ask through you madam chair do you know approximately is there any way of

2:03:34knowing how much funding will come in is there is there any type of um amount that

2:03:43it's so hard with a crystal ball right i get it but if if you were to project out that x amount of

2:03:49units came and those x amount of units would be then paid for with the pill and we would get

2:03:57why money so through the chair to you mayor guthrie certainly to your point it does depend on the

2:04:03uptake from the development community in building sort of our financial models earlier on in the

2:04:07process we did estimate approximately six hundred thousand dollars annually okay and then as the

2:04:13record through you madam chair as the record as recommendation states um you're looking at

2:04:18demand management and parking did you have a split of what approximately that six hundred thousand

2:04:26would do is it is it five hundred thousand to parking and a hundred thousand to transportation

2:04:31demand management uh what is the split through the chair to to you mayor guthrie so no there's not

2:04:37specific output from the reserve at this point in time certainly as multi-year budgets are built

2:04:42out in the future and the funding sources um come to play for those particular projects or programs

2:04:47at that time that's how the money would be utilized thank you um however i guess it would be up to the

2:04:53will of council to decide where we wanted to allocate that if there's percentage of splits or

2:04:58to one specific thing i guess that's up to us if we wanted to through the chair to you mayor guthrie

2:05:02so that's correct through the reserve policies and the multi-year budget yeah okay um and then my

2:05:08final question right now is through you madam chair is just uh i don't know if i don't know if

2:05:14we all received the email but there was an email that came today from somebody that said that they

2:05:19were um i didn't actually read the whole thing yet but it was basically saying that they were here

2:05:24they they were involved with this issue months ago and when were we here last september i think it was

2:05:32and yet they had no idea that this was happening today at all and they were a downtown developer

2:05:39trying to revitalize an old commercial space and um there was no engagement with them

2:05:45they didn't have any idea this was happening at all and yet they were very involved with this

2:05:50issue prior can i just ask how you did engagement on this how far of a net did you cast to try to

2:05:58gather feedback on this so through the chair to to mayor guthrie so with respect to the the

2:06:07parking payment and lou a couple things in terms of engagement one um certainly staff relied on the

2:06:12the engagement work done through the downtown parking master plan so much of the feedback was

2:06:15obtained through that process in the interest of the housing crisis and the speed at which we

2:06:20wanted to be able to bring this policy forth to council there wasn't substantial engagement since

2:06:24the time of the master plan we have informed some of the key groups including the the development

2:06:29community through our work for our downtown revitalization advisor and so um that's the

2:06:35process that staff took in the interest of getting this to council as quickly as possible okay thank

2:06:40you madam chair okay council crown thank you i have similar question following up on the on the

2:06:48commitment to use some of these funds for transportation uh demand management in the report

2:06:55it just talks about possibly about being an incentive do we have we committed that that is

2:07:02where some of the money is going to go and at what point would we would we do that similar to

2:07:06to mayor guthrie's is i know we haven't determined a percentage but at what point would we make that

2:07:11commitment in terms of timing um through the through the chair to council crown um so as we

2:07:21go through and see what developments are are happening in the downtown to continue to study

2:07:28parking and traffic movements in the downtown we will be putting forth projects as part of the

2:07:33multi-year budget and through that and through um and consultation with finance deciding on how

2:07:38which projects are going to be funded and which ones aren't and ultimately that will come

2:07:43in front of council for approval okay thanks okay any other questions for staff

2:07:51um i would oh council billings sorry about that that's okay through you madam chair

2:07:58back to the engagement so so we don't have any comments then from the downtown board on this issue

2:08:09through the chair to councillor billings um we have certainly advised the downtown wealth

2:08:13business association that this was coming forward most recently at their board meeting last week so

2:08:18they are aware um that this was coming forward yes okay and then back to the financial modeling with

2:08:26the with the tiered structure um a couple of the lines there that were providing pretty deep

2:08:32discounts um for a lack of parking so forecasting out so that's that's a source of revenue but when

2:08:40it comes time to building um a parking uh infrastructure um how much are we do we know

2:08:48by the financial modeling how much of a percentage we will be short and so and then that would be

2:08:56picked up by taxation or or what user fees like what does the financial modeling show

2:09:04um through the through the chair to council billings um so again as we we are trying to

2:09:16forecast when we will need say new parking or to put in some new traffic management strategies

2:09:23we'll keep an eye on that as as time goes on because as you can imagine there's going to be

2:09:27developments in the downtown that come in at different times um there's going to be the cost

2:09:33increase um so we are going to be able to um to keep an eye on that and make adjustments as required

2:09:40through the um through the uh through the multi-year budget um so we're in terms of will we have enough

2:09:48right now as you recall this is actually a new revenue tool so before we did not have this revenue

2:09:54coming in so this will certainly put us in a better position than would we be otherwise

2:09:58but should you madam chair it's it's not full cost recovery so when would we have an idea

2:10:05when would council have an idea of how much the shortfall would be then

2:10:13so through the chair to councillor billings so with respect to to additional parking supply in

2:10:19the future certainly the downtown parking master plan looks out to 2051 and indicates that there

2:10:24ultimately could be a shortage in parking supply but it is a long-term thing and so what what's

2:10:30intended at this point in time is um certainly to just monitor the changes over time as it relates

2:10:35to parking in the parking ecosystem as it relates to changes in downtown growth development etc

2:10:41at this point there's no intention to build a new park aid or anything like that in the near future

2:10:47and so it's difficult to answer any sort of detailed financial modeling on a park aid at this point

2:10:54but in the long term we know through you madam chair will be required some more supply

2:11:00so if we're going to collect this revenue and then we put it in a reserve later down the road

2:11:07when it's required it's guaranteed to be there if we're going to take some of that money out for

2:11:14transportation demand management initiatives then there's there's no guarantee then with respect to

2:11:22that we will need less parking and we won't have as much money there in the reserve to pay for the

2:11:31future parking so through the chair to council billings um well as we go through our active

2:11:39transportation master plan as we try to move um our residents to a different kind of modal split

2:11:46I'm not quite sure what parking we're actually going to need in the future again it depends on a

2:11:51lot of different things we are trying to move people out of their cars so at this point it's

2:11:56really hard to determine when and how much we're going to need for parking for cars in in the future

2:12:03we do have updates coming to our transportation master plan in 2028 so we will have a chance to

2:12:11take a look at that again and and adjust our plan accordingly at that time okay thank you

2:12:19Madam Chair when you call the vote can you split the clauses I certainly can yep thank you Madam

2:12:26Chair Councillor Klassen has a couple questions uh yes through you uh Chair O'Rourke to staff um

2:12:37a previous question actually made me think of this question so I'm just curious because I did a bit

2:12:42of the math calculation um yesterday when I was going through just to understand the math a little

2:12:49bit better and from what I understand without you know speaking the calculation out loud this is a

2:12:54significant reduction in cost for the developers like it is potentially hundreds of thousands

2:13:01if you know I won't again won't go through it um but I just you know out of curiosity and this can

2:13:07be high level and you know as cam says I won't hold you to it um but how many units could this

2:13:12potentially unlock downtown in the short term because I'm thinking of places like Conestoga

2:13:17College that are coming online in the short term and I think there's going to be a lot of students

2:13:21who probably won't necessarily have cars um so you know retrofitting a number of second and third

2:13:30story buildings um could really be great for for folks like them uh do we have an estimate of

2:13:37or an idea potentially thanks so through the chair to to Councillor Klassen so certainly

2:13:45you know it it's difficult to predict in one hand because it depends on the uptake of course and who

2:13:50decides and we don't control the timing of development and what developers will choose to do however

2:13:55the intention of the tool is certainly to to um provide more tools to help development come to

2:14:00life faster and so that more units can be built quicker um there's an affordability element with

2:14:06respect to um how those units get built and it also helps those who are potentially in a more

2:14:11difficult situation with respect to the properties and units that they may already own

2:14:15downtown and the ability to build parking and so this this is really intended to get at that to

2:14:20help unlock those units as quickly as those developers will come to the table. Okay thank you

2:14:29um and you know just out of curiosity do we have a few developers who have you know expressed their

2:14:34interest in doing this since uh since we've started looking at at writing this policy? Through the chair

2:14:42to Councillor Klassen so if Councillor recalls in September when we came down with the parking

2:14:47downtown parking strategy we had the property owners representatives from the T bank for example come

2:14:52and talk about wanting to convert their upper stories of their existing building. This would

2:14:58help them and enable them to move forward quicker and that's really who we're especially

2:15:03trying to target in the next couple of years with that reduced rate for the smaller conversions

2:15:07so it's really an attempt to get at those smaller scale projects as quickly as we can.

2:15:13Thank you. Okay any other questions? Oh Councillor Buzetill.

2:15:24Now through the chair to staff just some clarifications it it dovetails what Councillor

2:15:29Caron and Councillor Billings were asking. I'm still a bit confused around the process I I

2:15:35understand for example when planning brought the TD request for conversion is that the time

2:15:42will where we will have the conversation is it by single development application that we will

2:15:47approve the implementation of this policy and I assume I remember that application had also had

2:15:54some alternative transportation considerations in their development application. Is it a one-off

2:16:04by each development that we then apply this policy or is it on hold looking at the impact

2:16:13when it goes back to budget or to the downtown master plan? I'm trying to understand around

2:16:19if we make these decisions incrementally when do we take stock of what the overall impact is.

2:16:27Thank you. Through the chair to the Councillor so if Council supports this policy today

2:16:35it can be implemented right away and we can start having those conversations and having

2:16:41developers take advantage of this policy going forward. There's still the opportunity for developers

2:16:46to reduce their required parking through affordable housing, bike share, car share and other initiatives

2:16:52to get their initial number that they require down and then apply the cash and lew of policy as well.

2:16:57So there's a couple of different options but the policy could go forward right away.

2:17:07Sorry and then just through the chair the follow-up around when do we take stock? Is it not until the

2:17:13master plan review or is it at budget time when do we take stock of what the impacts

2:17:21are of these decisions? Yeah through the through the Mayor to the Councillor so

2:17:31parking is a delegated approval authority item so it will be reported to Council annually.

2:17:38As part of the half funding that was talked about earlier one of the projects was our

2:17:42program and looking at parking again and helping create that parking menu which would

2:17:46reduce the parking overall as well. So you're going to continue to hear about parking you're

2:17:51going to continue to hear about downtown parking as we continue to evolve and look at other

2:17:57opportunities to reduce it further in substantial ways. Thank you and through the chair thank you.

2:18:05Thank you Councillor. Mayor Guthrie do you have a motion or a question? Okay Mayor Guthrie.

2:18:14Thank you and through you yes do you know how much parking justification

2:18:18studies cost approximately like as an added cost now to development what is that looking at for

2:18:24a developer? Yeah through the chair to the Mayor you know I can't say exactly and it depends on

2:18:37the scale of the parking study. If they're not asking for any reduction and they're simply just

2:18:43asking for cash and lieu it's it's probably not required just a letter asking why but if they're

2:18:48wanting to for example some of the options of going above and beyond then we'd be asking for a

2:18:55parking justification study but those are often for larger developments and not the smaller conversions

2:18:59that we're hoping to see happen quicker. Okay but we don't know how much they would normally cost or

2:19:06how much like of another hurdle that someone has to do on an application process. So yet

2:19:13another thing they have to provide do we know how much how long it takes? Is it a six month study or

2:19:18something that they have to do? I'm just not sure what to be expected. Yeah it can it can go

2:19:26fairly quickly depending on the scale of the item and what's provided. So we do have some

2:19:33background data as well that we'll be looking especially to help the smaller conversions

2:19:37along but the bigger conversions will have to look at their own needs assessment if it's market-based

2:19:41is it rental is it affordable is it student like there's a lots of different parameters that they'll

2:19:45have to look at and depending on consulting's time and how quickly they can produce a report.

2:19:52It could be as quickly as within a couple of months it could be longer. Okay and then how

2:19:57much are you charging them for the fee for you to look at it? Through the chair to you Mayor

2:20:05Grotthier we are still undertaking that work with exploring other municipalities what they charge and

2:20:10sort of the cost to the city to process these applications but we would expect that the application

2:20:15fee would be somewhere between $750 and $1,000 and there's an update to the development applications

2:20:22fees and charges bylaw coming to you next month so it'll be consolidated with that so that we're

2:20:27only amending that bylaw one time. Okay thank you and one of the calculation pages that you have in

2:20:33the attachment you've picked that the building height where the justification comes into play can

2:20:40be no more than six stories what's the justification of that like what's the scientific reasoning that

2:20:46you picked six stories why not five why not seven why not eight for conversions I think if I recall.

2:20:59Yeah through the chair to the mayor so that's current the current height limits the most of

2:21:04the downtown so that's the the number we have right now as you know we're undertaking work

2:21:09later on so we may be amending this policy as the year goes but right now our OP is generally

2:21:15the low density designation in the quicker conversions that we could see happen is the up to six stories.

2:21:22Thank you and quickly may I just ask if you could explain a little bit better for me about those

2:21:28that are trying to build supportive or affordable housing do they still be charged well they'll still

2:21:32be charged to try to justify through a justification report why they don't need it again it seems like

2:21:38a little bit of a hurdle to me for the exact type of housing we wanted to have.

2:21:45Through the mayor so our supportive housing policies are currently under appeal

2:21:50in a comprehensive zoning bylaw so for affordable housing right now they would have to meet the

2:21:57parking requirements for the site we have seen sites that have produced a parking justification

2:22:04to go at less we've also seen those same sites come back and ask for more parking so it would be on

2:22:10them to take a look at and through the housing affordable strategy and the parking work that

2:22:15will come out later this year the city will be bringing forward a number for a parking for

2:22:21affordable housing but at this point in time it's the the current rates that are in effect.

2:22:27Okay I just know I don't want to put them on the spot but Councillor Goller really raised that the

2:22:32last time we were here and there's a lot of heads nodding by council that we wanted to try to help

2:22:36with that specific type of housing to be done so that's concerning. My last question is just

2:22:43what would happen if council agreed to change the ratio at this moment instead of 0.75 to change

2:22:51it to 0.5 would it just be a strictly a math a mathematical equation then that everything would

2:22:58apply but to a lower parking rate? Through the chair to the mayor so before you today is a cash

2:23:06and lieu policy and not a zoning bylaw amendment so we don't have a zoning bylaw amendment in front

2:23:11of council if we were directed to bring back a zoning bylaw amendment that would be a separate

2:23:16process that's public we have to provide notice for before we pass a bylaw for that and I do note

2:23:24our comprehensive zoning bylaws under appeal as a whole as well and even the parking reduction that

2:23:29we did in September is under appeal so any parking bylaws that we have are the $19.95 and there is

2:23:36nothing else that is in effect at this time due to the appeals we've had to both the comprehensive

2:23:41zoning bylaw and the downtown parking reduction bylaw which is also under appeal. Thank you and

2:23:48sorry I just want to follow up then so if councils will today as an example was to state we like

2:23:55everything here except we want it to be zero parking requirements for supportive and or affordable

2:24:01housing just just as an idea are you or staff suggesting we can't go that route because of the

2:24:09appeals or are you suggesting that we still or are you not suggesting but would you validate

2:24:15that if councils will was to do that give you that direction that it could still be implemented today

2:24:21even though that appeal is ongoing. Through the chair to the mayor I'm suggesting that if we brought

2:24:28that forward it would be caught up and wrapped up in the appeals that we currently have ongoing so we

2:24:34would not be able to implement it until we had resolved those appeals. But the direction could

2:24:39still begin if we chose and then it would be wrapped up in the appeals. It would be wrapped up in the

2:24:43appeals we'd have to bring back a separate report on that because we still have to do a process

2:24:51and pass a separate bylaw which would be caught up in the appeals for that if it was council's

2:24:55direction to do that. Thank you Madam Chair did you want me to move an amendment or actually I

2:25:02would imagine my my amendment might be a separate motion perhaps. Just to come back just to come back

2:25:10on a consideration of changing the ratio if that's your intent then I'd like to confer with the

2:25:15clerk to see if that needs to be a reconsideration because that was a decision previously previously

2:25:19taken by council I believe. No through you through you to you Madam Chair I have no intention of

2:25:25doing that based on the fact that it would require a meeting of a zoning conversation

2:25:30and that's not what we're here for today. So as much as I don't like it I understand the process

2:25:36and we'll respect that. Okay I just want to know what's coming. Thank you. Any additional questions?

2:25:45Okay then I am ready to call the vote on the two recommendations that are on the floor.

2:25:52Councillor Billings asked to split that vote and then Mayor Guthrie has an additional motion.

2:26:01Madam Chair and through you to that last point on Mayor Guthrie's potential

2:26:06motion the question I would have is we've received it at the clerk's table here and

2:26:12we've shared it with staff. I would defer to staff at the bench whether or not that would be seen

2:26:18as an amendment to the policy. The last clause in or the last section of that policy speaks to

2:26:24allocation of funds. I don't know if that's something that they believe would need to be included in

2:26:29that last section of the of attachment one to the staff report but I'll defer to them. I just

2:26:35wanted to give the opportunity to consider whether or not it needs to be an amendment in that regard

2:26:47and just while they confer for for council's benefit we've received that that motion it could

2:26:52where we've structured it now is it could be an amending motion that could be tabled

2:26:56voted on and then you would vote on the final clauses of the staff recommendation as amended

2:27:00to clause one but again I think staff would would probably benefit from weighing in on

2:27:05whether or not that is something that could be encapsulated in the last clause of attachment one.

2:27:11Okay so here's how we'll proceed. Mayor Guthrie has an amendment to propose for recommendation one.

2:27:17Mayor Guthrie. Thank you Madam Chair. Yeah well yeah we can just deal with the amendment if it

2:27:22fails then it just goes back to the split vote that Councillor Billings wants to do that makes

2:27:26sense. I don't know if I have a seconder for this but it is that 100% of the funds collected through

2:27:31the pill be allocated to support future Guelph transit service enhancements so not the sort of

2:27:39split of money that would go towards parking and or other demand management but have it 100%

2:27:47go to transit enhancements. So Councillor Goller your seconding okay. Mayor Guthrie we'd like to

2:27:54speak to your amendment. No I'm not really just just it's straightforward. I mean you know even

2:28:02if we give this a try for a while I just feel like I just feel like we we we could help boost a little

2:28:08bit with this revenue into the very thing that a lot of people are saying needs some some help

2:28:16and there seems to be this degree Madam Chair of you know people that want to just have the cars

2:28:22accommodated and then there's this other degree of like bicycles and walking but that sort of

2:28:28common denominator where everyone would feel like some enhancements and services could be is

2:28:33around transit because that can help people a little bit differently than just walking or biking

2:28:37as an example so I would prefer that we at least for now have the money directly allocated to

2:28:44transit enhancements and and that would boost just boost the options of transit in that manner

2:28:52by this new revenue that comes in so that that's it and you know if it's an idea if people like it

2:28:58so be it if not totally fine. Okay I'd like to go to DCAO Holmes first please. Through you Madam Chair

2:29:05to Mayor Guthrie it's when we're looking at the Planning Act so we weren't sure we didn't know this

2:29:12was coming so we need a chance to take it away but we'll just caution that you know the Planning

2:29:18Act is very clear about what you can use the reserves for and what you can't if I just read

2:29:23just one of the one of the sections here it talks about the money in that account shall be

2:29:27applied for the same purpose as the Reserve Fund established under the Municipal Act 2001

2:29:32or the City of Toronto Act 2006 as the case may be so it it's pretty clear what you can use

2:29:39the reserve money for and so we just we just caution that before you send us away because

2:29:46it sounds pretty clear to us but there's some rules that we have to follow in regards to the

2:29:51Planning Act and Reserve policies. Yeah Madam Chair if I could. Yep. I will remove my motion

2:29:59my amendment not because I want to but because I now specifically remember a very fulsome

2:30:08discussion about that back in September when we were originally talking about that and I think I

2:30:13might have asked some of the questions in those kind of scoped council or kind of

2:30:18discussions that we had and I completely forgot so I apologize for wasting that five minutes there

2:30:25and again I wish we could do it but you are 100% right and it was pretty clear months ago so I'll

2:30:32happily remove my amendment. Councillor Goller do you agree? Yes I see Councillor Goller is nodding

2:30:40his head. Okay. Oh yes I need the approval of all of council to remove the motion any opposed?

2:30:47Okay I see none opposed so we are back to the vote on the main motion any comments before the vote?

2:30:53Councillor Chew. Through you Madam Chair I just wanted to quickly clarify so

2:31:04when the pill payment is made you talk about it being a lump sum you just

2:31:11paint a picture there's no strings attached after the payment is made like there's assurances that

2:31:17um that like it's said and done like if you catch my drift. Through the through the chair to

2:31:29Councillor Chew there's no strings attached if I'm understanding I'm still thinking I'm understanding

2:31:36your question. Okay I'll leave it that for now and I'll circle back with you. Maybe maybe I'll

2:31:43just add through the chair to Councillor Chew we do have a parking agreement so there is an agreement

2:31:48between the developer and the city that they're paying a certain amount of money but also there's

2:31:54an agreement in place to make sure that both parties are in accordance with what the agreement says

2:32:01in terms of parking. Is that okay? Yeah that's better yeah okay yes so we they're not just giving

2:32:06us money and hope that they do it there's an agreement that they have to sign to make sure

2:32:09they're complying with what they what they promise to do. Okay any other comments before I call the

2:32:19vote? Okay Mayor Guthrie you've got three and a half minutes left. Yeah don't worry I'm gonna be 10

2:32:24seconds. I'm gonna hold my nose as I vote for this. I this is complicated and you know no parking

2:32:36minimums is really easy and clear and I think that would have been a better way to go but I

2:32:44I will I will hold my nose to vote for this and we'll give it a try for for a few years and see

2:32:50what happens but you know I even between September and now Madam Chair there's full states in the

2:32:58city like actual states in the city that are going no parking minimums and more and more

2:33:04cities are moving in that direction so I still think we kind of missed an opportunity to grab that

2:33:09as a city but here we are and I will I will support it at this time even though I don't I

2:33:16don't 100% really agree with where this is going so thank you for bringing it back as quickly as

2:33:22you did those staff to get it done thank you. Great before I call the vote I'd just like to add I

2:33:29actually really endorse the policy I think it's going to free up some capacity for building and

2:33:34at the same time I really support having the funding go to both parking and alternatives

2:33:41because we have some capacity now but we've got Conestoga College coming online potential for more

2:33:46employment downtown a lot more residential and the two-way all-day go means that people may not

2:33:53necessarily be coming from within the city boundaries I've driven to Georgetown or Burlington to

2:33:58take the go train and I think we should expect that will happen and and be building up that parking

2:34:03reserve $600,000 year over year it takes a long time to get to another $30 million so I'd like to

2:34:09have that cushion to make sure that we can provide that capacity if and when it's needed we have a

2:34:15tourism strategy to attract people from outside and while it would be ideal for them to take transit

2:34:21or to cycle here we have to expect that a lot of folks will still be using personal vehicles so

2:34:27I think staff have reached a really good balance okay I'll call the vote then on the first clause

2:34:39and it's in the agenda so we don't need to read it any opposed Councillor Billings is opposed

2:34:49and so that motion passes okay if I can have the second recommendation on the screen please

2:34:57this is that schedule a of the development application fee bylaw be amended to include

2:35:01the estimated cost of a parking space and the payment in lieu of off-street parking application fee

2:35:08any opposed no one opposed and so that is unanimous and it passes great thank you very much

2:35:17thanks to our delegates and to those who sent in correspondence all right the next item is 15.2

2:35:26Wyndham street north cross section and st. George's square intersection so a lot's going on in the

2:35:32downtown this is exciting an exciting conversation about significant investments in our downtown core

2:35:39and we will start with a presentation from our manager of design and construction red rush room

2:35:45and also terry gayman who's our general manager engineering transportation services and stacey

2:35:50lachlan who's our downtown revitalization advisor so take it away folks okay good afternoon mayor

2:36:06guthrie and council i'm terry gayman the city's general manager of engineering and transportation

2:36:11services and city engineer and with me today are reg rush worm the city's manager of design and

2:36:17construction who's leading the downtown infrastructure renewal program and stacey lachlan the city's

2:36:22downtown revitalization advisor and we're excited to be here today so that we can present to council

2:36:27the results of the windham street and st. George's square environmental assessment or ea and before

2:36:33we dive in i'd like to take a moment to help us focus today in terms of the scope of our conversation

2:36:39so the material in front of council is about a decision to make regarding the form and function

2:36:44of the windham street corridor which is a key decision point in the downtown renewal journey

2:36:49but today we are not discussing or seeking council approval of non-ea items like streetscaping

2:36:55construction pacing or strategies to mitigate construction impacts to businesses residences

2:37:01or other facilities and of course there will absolutely be time for those conversations which

2:37:06i will outline for you today but again the decision and discussion for today is focused on the ea in

2:37:12the selection of the preferred ea options to get started i want to point out the project context

2:37:22in terms of all the great work the city's achieving downtown the city's downtown renewal efforts

2:37:27encompass many projects that are underway or are planned as we work towards creating a place for

2:37:32everyone the downtown infrastructure renewal program is just one component of the city's

2:37:37overall downtown renewal efforts and to build upon past efforts and deliver on a compelling

2:37:42vision that set out in the downtown secondary plan the city is making significant investments over

2:37:47the next 10 plus years the overall downtown renewal efforts will transform how downtown looks feels

2:37:52and functions making it future ready to support growth 2051 and beyond and we're working towards a