Following clauses be added as #3 and #4: 3.That the potential lease of 72 Farquhar be subject to the GCVA's creation of an equity and inclusion…

1:44:27and some

1:44:28Comments from our staff just to sort of I would call it set the stage

1:44:32Of where we're moving today and in regards to their recommendations and uh, then after that

1:44:39We have a few delegations. So thank you very much for coming everybody and then we'll move into debate and discussion

1:44:46Okay, so i'll turn it over to staff. Thank you. Okay. Good afternoon, mayor members of council staff and the public

1:44:57My name is james goodrum. I'm the general manager of economic development and tourism

1:45:01So we're here today to provide a brief presentation on the request for expressions of interest

1:45:06Process that we went through for the drill hall property located at 72 farquhar

1:45:12So the initiative has garnered much attention in the community

1:45:15So we're here to provide information on the city's role in acquiring the property the process

1:45:20We followed to find a community use the current status of the city's budget and how it's intersected with this initiative

1:45:27The file spans multiple departments

1:45:30We've had extensive internal staff consultation

1:45:33It's that's taken place and it's brought us here today and ultimately culminated in the recommendation before you

1:45:39Ian scott and luke jafferson are here to share the information on where we started in

1:45:452013 and where we are now

1:45:48And we're available to answer questions at the end of the presentation

1:45:51So i'll turn it over to yin scott to walk us through the work that has occurred at the property since 2013

1:46:04Thank you james

1:46:07So we'll start off this presentation with a brief recent history of the drill hall and what has happened since the drill hall came into the city's

1:46:14possession in 2017

1:46:17The initial driver of this acquisition

1:46:20By the city really started in 2013 with the expansion of two-way all-day go to the city of guave area

1:46:26This was identified to council

1:46:29At that time in a staff report from finance titled metronics contribution agreement, which was attached to the drill hall report before you today

1:46:36The 2013 report indicated that the city had a liability of approximately three million dollars

1:46:42Appointed by the provincial government for two-way all-day go coming to guave

1:46:47fast forward to 2017 and as part of the city's commitment to satisfy

1:46:52That financial contribution a land deal was facilitated where the city and metro links swapped the train station and drill hall property

1:46:59In part to help satisfy the financial commitment identified in that report

1:47:03The land transfer was also in part due to due to the fact that the city of guave saw the drill hall

1:47:08As a building that had both historical and cultural value and wanted to ensure that the building was protected

1:47:14To that end in 2018 council designated the building under part four of the ontario heritage act

1:47:20At the time of acquisition the building was also in rough shape

1:47:24And required ground-up restoration and since 2018 the city has been working on stabilizing the building

1:47:31To prevent further deterioration during the process in 2020 during this process in 2021

1:47:36The city also completed a market sounding study to inform possible end uses of the drill hall

1:47:42The structural rehabilitation and stabilization was completed in 2023 and staff at that time

1:47:48Initiated a request for expression of interest process to find an end use for the building which we will walk you through in just a moment

1:47:56First though as an idea of what's been happening with the restoration and stabilization of the drill hall

1:48:02Since the building was acquired in

1:48:042017

1:48:05The first action item that the city really did. Whoops. Sorry

1:48:10Was to basically remove got the building and remove all of the old designated substances that were within the building

1:48:18Um, the foundation of the building which was an old stone and rubble foundation

1:48:23Was severely deteriorated and required complete replacement and that included the structural footings under all of the interior building combs as well

1:48:32And because of the condition of the building at time of acquisition a large portion of the wooden structure that was sitting on the foundation

1:48:39also required complete replacement and that included

1:48:43You know, um the interior building columns sill beams and even complete wall sections required replacement

1:48:49and um, this was all while maintaining the heritage attributes of the building of which the wooden structure was a key heritage feature

1:48:57The drill hall was also disconnected from utilities at the time of

1:49:01um acquisitions, so the city

1:49:04Brought a new utilities and also provided new electrokeeting within the building

1:49:08And finally a lot of the old structural connections

1:49:11Between wooden columns and beams had shifted because of the state of the building and so those all required

1:49:17Reinforcement to bring them back up to code

1:49:19So based on all the items I just mentioned the city has completed approximately five million dollars worth of work

1:49:25And an estimated five million more of investment is still required

1:49:29To finalize the works at the drill hall and this would mean that the drill hall will

1:49:33Literally have been rebuilt from the ground up

1:49:41So while the construction works were ongoing in 2021

1:49:44Staff undertook a market sounding study to provide insights into the possible end uses for the drill hall

1:49:50To summarize the results from that sounding study. There was significant community interest

1:49:54But private developers had little interest in the building with the comment back being that it was not deemed a financially viable venture for them

1:50:03The results from the market sounding study informed the 2021 real estate assets report with the recommendation

1:50:09Coming that the city initiate an open proposal process to solicit uses for the drill hall

1:50:15In 2023 the city initiated a request for expression of interest for the drill hall property

1:50:21Which was an open call to community user groups to provide proposals for the use of the property

1:50:26In terms of the request for the expression of interest the city indicated

1:50:30It was open to exploring various arrangements or ownership models to find a suitable community use

1:50:35But was clear that no additional funding for the building had been included in the city's multi-year budget

1:50:41And with that I will now turn it over to luke jefferson to discuss the outcome of the rfeo i process and the next steps

1:50:55Good afternoon. My name is luke jefferson. I am the strategic property advisor with the city

1:51:01As ian mentioned in september 2023

1:51:06The city issued a request for expression of interest seeking proposals for a use that would support

1:51:11The reanimation and restoration of the drill hall

1:51:15Criteria included complying with city policy and secondary plans

1:51:20Opportunities and challenges with the site were communicated including the heritage status and the proximity of the rail line

1:51:28One of the clear criteria that was communicated in the expression of interest terms of reference was the city does not have

1:51:35Funding within the long-term capital plan for further restoration

1:51:39This remains true today

1:51:41And since that time we have faced increased challenges with the city's budget forecast and tighter expectations

1:51:47As part of this process we received two very interesting proposals that would benefit the community one withdrew

1:51:53Resulting in the gulf center for visual art remaining as the sole proposal received

1:51:59The proposal as submitted

1:52:02Outlined two models to operate one was a lease style agreement where the city would own the property and the art center would occupy the building

1:52:09The other model identified that the property would be conveyed to the art center for a nominal price

1:52:14And that group would own and operate the building

1:52:17Both models outlined two key criteria

1:52:20Renovation to make the building occupiable

1:52:23Is he and outlined that those estimates or is that that will cost approximately $5 million

1:52:28The other criteria is that the city would provide funds to allow the group to operate

1:52:32This is identified as $500,000 over five years

1:52:37Unfortunately, this does not comply with what was communicated in the expression of interest

1:52:41It does not align with the budget forecast

1:52:43The city does not have the funds required to action this proposal

1:52:49This is the sole reason that staff are recommending that the request for expression of interest process be ended

1:52:54And staff move forward with the next step in identifying a use for the property

1:52:59Staff are recommending sale of the property and this would represent the third step in finding a use for the building

1:53:05As I mentioned staff are recommending the sale of the property

1:53:14A market listing for the sale of the property

1:53:16A market listing for the site would allow anyone

1:53:19Including the gulf center of visual art to purchase the building

1:53:22It is open and transparent any purchaser would be required to comply with the zoning and heritage legislation

1:53:28The work to improve the structure of the building and the protections in place for the building would continue to apply

1:53:36The benefit of this recommendation is that it will allow staff to advance the reuse of the building without significant investment

1:53:43As outlined within the proposals

1:53:46The cost I could just lean a little closer

1:53:56Um the cost to maintain the building has been identified uh as approximately

1:54:01125 000 a year for heat electricity insurance security and other standard maintenance requirements

1:54:08Many of these costs are embedded in broader operating line items

1:54:11However, a sale would remove approximately half of that overall amount from city budgets for electrical heating and security

1:54:18alternatively

1:54:20Maintaining ownership without further investment will require an additional 60 to 65 000 which has not been budgeted for maintenance in general state of repair costs

1:54:31As outlined in our recommendation a purchaser could self organize and seek grants investment or other financial incentives to action the renovation and reanimation of the space

1:54:41This recommendation is coming to council

1:54:43As a way to action the direction to find a use for the building and meet community budget expectations

1:54:48It is the next logical step after completing the market sounding study and completing the request for expression of interest process

1:54:57and i'll just end with

1:54:59The recommendations and just outline that these recommendations are where staff have landed

1:55:03Because of the funding limitations available within the budget to action the proposals are submitted

1:55:09Thank you

1:55:12Great. Thank you. And does staff have any other further comments before I go to our delegations?

1:55:18Okay, our deputy cio homes. Thank you and

1:55:22Thank you, mr. Mayor

1:55:23So just to set the stage a little bit because I do know we do have some discussions that are coming up

1:55:29With a lot of delegations, but this is really in summary just a report out from the

1:55:34request for expression of interest

1:55:38We did get some submissions and none of them were in compliance with the requirements of that

1:55:44So that's what we are reporting back to you on and also our recommendation is based on the fact that

1:55:49You know, we have looked at different options in terms of how we might move forward with the facility and the recommendation

1:55:57to sell the the property is

1:56:01Is based on the fact that we've exhausted any any financial viable way of

1:56:06Owning this building and ourselves. So I I just want to let you know that this is not about not supporting the arts

1:56:12You know, we do this is not about

1:56:15Not supporting or keeping heritage, you know, we support heritage

1:56:19So I just want to make that very clear that it's more of a as we look towards, you know

1:56:23Again, we keep referencing the budget that's coming up as we look towards that

1:56:27We are trying to make decisions that are in alignment

1:56:31With those decisions that are coming

1:56:34for sure

1:56:37Yeah, we it's probably good that you stated that out loud because

1:56:41We don't want any other narratives to be out there. We we know staff support those two things. So thank you

1:56:47I see a hand up, but I've got delegates councillor gore. What's what's up your worship?

1:56:52Through the the messages that that I've read from the delegates

1:56:56I think that there's one point that I would ask for clarification from the report that might help

1:57:02Put some of the presentations into context

1:57:05Mainly the assertion that there is no interest from the private sector

1:57:08And that we could put it up for sale because there's interest in the property just wanted that clarity

1:57:16If if I could ask that one question of staff in advance of the delegates

1:57:21You know what I'm going to be consistent if you don't mind councillor

1:57:24I'm going to go to the delegates and then if if I have no problem going to you first if you want to ask that question

1:57:29Even after we hear the delegates so that staff could respond to that

1:57:32But you just want to be consistent to get the delegates up first if that's okay

1:57:36I appreciate that

1:57:38So the delegates to you

1:57:42Some are some

1:57:45Most are here in person maybe one by phone if this is your first time first of all welcome

1:57:52And you have no more than five minutes

1:57:54You will hear a chime at the four minutes and 30 second mark

1:57:58Which is your 30 second warning to wrap it up if you don't need the whole five minutes. That's fine

1:58:04But I

1:58:05Detest having to cut people off don't put me in that position. So please don't go over the five minutes

1:58:11And then uh, just be aware that there could be follow-ups

1:58:15Questions from my colleagues or myself. So I'll let you know

1:58:20Lisa and jenice, uh, how are you? We we welcome you and uh, thank you for coming

1:58:26And I will turn it over to you go right ahead

1:58:28Thank you. Mr. Mayor. Um, hello council. Hello staff

1:58:32um

1:58:33I am a founding board member of the gulf center for visual arts along with my colleagues victoria coats jenine smith and mike salsbury

1:58:43We are a not-for-profit

1:58:45Especially registered in response to the city's call for expressions of interest for the drill hall, which was issued last may

1:58:53Uh may 2023

1:58:56We are a community led initiative

1:58:58supported by a growing advisory board of experts in architecture engineering development

1:59:06art gallery owners and art related services

1:59:10As well as artists in the community

1:59:13We envision a multifunction

1:59:15Community art space where individuals from all backgrounds and walks of life can come together and celebrate diversity through creative practice

1:59:24Central to our vision is the creation of a collaborative environment that includes shared workspaces

1:59:32equipment libraries and individual studios

1:59:36Complementing these resources we envision flexible spaces that could be used for exhibitions

1:59:42performances art classes

1:59:44and places to gather

1:59:47Providing our artists with the essential facilities and resources necessary to develop and maintain a sustainable artistic practice

1:59:57This is not a new idea

1:59:59We are the latest in the long line of community groups that believe in the importance of a community art space here in gulf

2:00:06organizations like the creative arts association, which was started in 1947

2:00:12and the gulf arts platform

2:00:14in 2012

2:00:17What i'm saying is that this is

2:00:19Time it is time now

2:00:22The drill hall is a stranded asset looking for a new use. We are the organization that can make it happen

2:00:29Our request is that council, please award us the project

2:00:34That city continue to own and maintain the drill hall

2:00:38And to direct staff to work with us to finalize an agreement to the benefit of all parties

2:00:43Our proposal aligns with the key documents that drive this city the official plan the strategic plan the downtown secondary plan

2:00:53economic development and tourism strategy

2:00:56And the newly approved cultural plan

2:00:59It addresses the constraints this particular building represents

2:01:02The location of the rail corridor

2:01:05The heritage designation and the parking issues these are all addressed in our proposal

2:01:11Our proposal is one of the few viable uses for the drill hall given its constraints

2:01:16This is where people will work

2:01:19And continue to contribute to the economic recovery of this city

2:01:24From emerging artists and mfa graduates who are looking to stay in gulf if they can find affordable studio space

2:01:31To mid career artists seeking exhibit space

2:01:34To underrepresented groups that enrich our art scene with diverse cultural ethnic and socio economic perspectives

2:01:42Our vision for this art hub is to serve as a catalyst for empowerment

2:01:47Creativity and community growth

2:01:50The people behind me offer a multifaceted view of the positive impact that a community art space can have on this city

2:01:59They reflect that

2:02:01Art is a tool

2:02:04For economic vitality cultural enrichment

2:02:07And social cohesion

2:02:11As you listen to the

2:02:13Who will follow me

2:02:15You'll hear a common thread a strong desire for an inspiring inclusive

2:02:21visual art incubator that elevates wealth status as a cultural destination

2:02:26While addressing the unique needs of its diverse residents

2:02:30This is not a special interest group

2:02:33We are the community you serve

2:02:36Let us help you find a solution for this wonderful building. It's an opportunity not to be missed

2:02:42Thank you very much. Well, thank you so much. Is there a follow-up at this point from any colleagues?

2:02:50I've got uh, two I got councillor Allt and then councillor or work, but before you go councillor Allt

2:02:56Um, it doesn't surprise me that artists and would love to clap in this theater of politics

2:03:02Uh, but we don't allow that here. Okay, just from a decorum in respect of the arena that we are in

2:03:10And uh, if you could not do any of that as we wade through each delegate

2:03:14I see lots of heads nodding. Thank you. I appreciate that. So councillor Allt and then

2:03:20Or work

2:03:23Thank you, mayor. Guthrie. I've turned off my camera just to help the sound

2:03:29Through you to the delegate

2:03:31Ms. Janice, thank you very much for

2:03:34Stepping up for the drill hall both as a heritage asset and as a potential creative arts site

2:03:40I do I am in support of both those ideas. However, I do need to ask you a very important question

2:03:49In guelph we've heard a lot about demolition by neglect

2:03:53The other question that I have for your group or for any group that assumes this is

2:03:59demolition by the unaffordability to conserve

2:04:03Does your group or do you know of plans to conserve a site that our staff is saying

2:04:12They do not believe that the

2:04:15City can financially support

2:04:20respectfully uh through the mayor

2:04:23to councillor Allt

2:04:25um

2:04:27We have other delegates who will speak specifically to this and I would like to defer until

2:04:34Until they speak

2:04:35For all questions if that's all right

2:04:39Thank you. That's quite fine. In fact, maybe I've uh, uh, given them a notice of

2:04:45Intent to ask them the same question. Thank you very much

2:04:48Thank you

2:04:49Thanks councillor roark

2:04:52Thank you, mayor Guthrie through you to madam janice. Nice to nice to see you. Thanks for the delegation

2:04:57Um, really easy question. Are you incorporated or registered as a nonprofit or a charity?

2:05:02Like are you an entity with which the city could potentially enter into an agreement?

2:05:07We are a registered not-for-profit

2:05:09Okay, thank you and through you mayor Guthrie

2:05:12Um, just a question for my own understanding

2:05:15Is the vision that this is primarily

2:05:18For private use of a group of artists who have their studio space there or is it uh, community use

2:05:25Or a hybrid of some sort

2:05:27It is intended to be a community art hub

2:05:31Think of it as a community center with an arts focus

2:05:34Just like the other community centers in the city that tend to focus on sports and swimming and things like that

2:05:40This particular community center, which would be downtown

2:05:45That's that's key

2:05:47Available and accessible to the whole community

2:05:51To anybody who wish to use it

2:05:54Thanks very much

2:05:58Great. Thank you. And uh, next up

2:06:01Is rosanne morris

2:06:04Ooh already standing perfect

2:06:07David mccully, I saw you here. You're in the wings. Okay

2:06:15Good afternoon, rosanne. Thank you for coming. Thank you. I'll turn it over to you

2:06:19Good afternoon, mr. Mayor and city counselors and members of city staff

2:06:25My name is rosanne morris

2:06:27I am a guelph artist a proud juried member of the guelph studio tour

2:06:34And I hope to be brief

2:06:36I have an art studio and had an art studio on on windom street for the past decade

2:06:42And I know what it is to share a studio space

2:06:46And have the nurturing support of fellow artists in my practice

2:06:51opportunities for collaboration

2:06:54Sharing of ideas and honest critique in the art making process are rare in guelph

2:07:02I actually invite you to look around the horseshoe today

2:07:07Counselors city staff

2:07:09Look around the circle and on the screens

2:07:13There are 13 elected officials

2:07:17And city staff who must and do work collaboratively

2:07:22Demonstrating the point that I am making

2:07:25Collaboration is key to creating a more vibrant community and a better guelph

2:07:34It is my belief that the wealth center for visual arts

2:07:38Will offer artist opportunities to co-create

2:07:41To share ideas to create collaboratively

2:07:47The GCVA will not only be of benefit to artists

2:07:52Art appreciators from across the city

2:07:55From across the GTA

2:07:57And perhaps even from across the province will visit guelph and be nurtured in the arts

2:08:04Just two days ago we witnessed hundreds of visitors visit the downtown core

2:08:09From far away to look at cars at the downtown guelph exotic car show

2:08:15How many patios were filled?

2:08:17How many shops experienced a surge in business as a result?

2:08:24As we know from the success of art on the street and the guelph studio tour over many years

2:08:30Art brings people to the city

2:08:35The GCVA will be an important economic driver

2:08:38Attracting visitors via the nearby GO train

2:08:42To guelph

2:08:45People who will explore dynamic exhibits at the GCVA while spending welcome dollars

2:08:50At restaurants and businesses in the downtown core

2:08:55I need to say that hundreds of hours

2:08:58Have gone into the creation of the GCVA proposal

2:09:03by

2:09:04By the working group

2:09:07We thank each one of the members of the core team for their dynamic vision

2:09:11For the space and for their hard work

2:09:15City counselors

2:09:17I urge you to embark on a joint feasibility study with the GCVA team

2:09:24To carefully examine the GCVA proposal

2:09:28To flesh out together the costs

2:09:31To determine the economic and cultural benefits of the project to our community

2:09:37Do not sell the drill hall

2:09:40Honor the process city staff began with a call for proposals in 2023

2:09:46Regarding the repurposing of the old drill hall

2:09:51We live in hope that the GCVA will in fact become reality

2:09:57Thank you

2:09:58Great and thank you for your presentation. Is there any questions as a follow-up?

2:10:03None at this time. Thank you very much. Thank you

2:10:06Uh, David McCauley is coming up and then uh, Janine Smith is Janine Smith here

2:10:12I see a hand you're in the wings. Okay. Thank you

2:10:17Welcome David. I'll turn it over to you. Thanks, my Guthrie and uh, I just want to speak for a few minutes

2:10:23I want to speak as an architect who's practiced for 50 years in Guelph. I was very young when I started

2:10:30And I've completed primarily community facilities for not-for-profit organizations

2:10:35In Guelph and over 200 municipalities in Ontario

2:10:38So I know what they're talking about when it's not for profit and when it's a struggling group trying to get going

2:10:44I'm back with the arts group proponents and about their needs and vision for a visual arts center

2:10:49And I toured through the building research reports and drawings on the structural remediation

2:10:54and I spent time in the building with structural engineer and

2:10:58Conclude that they the staged renovations for the reuse as a visual arts center for the structural with

2:11:05Is about the highest and best use of the building

2:11:09The objective of feasibility studies is to find out the highest and best use of the site

2:11:14And the design process takes time and engagement with committed partners

2:11:19And I see this as a partnership between the city as the proposed is and the arts group

2:11:25The this proposal shows that this is achievable achievable partnership with the guelph center for visual arts

2:11:32And there are many other examples in the city of a similar nature for other interest groups

2:11:38The staff says staff report says that a further investment is required to search out options for to increase the value

2:11:46So there is an increase in ongoing

2:11:49interest in

2:11:50Moving the project forward

2:11:53The city could invest in the interior exterior envelope and the interior renovations could be

2:11:59Done at the requirements of the tenants and proponent

2:12:04Due diligence certainly has to be done

2:12:07Further attempts to sell the as is building will only delay the creative adaptive reuse

2:12:13And reuse of this fine

2:12:15historic structure

2:12:17So I definitely support the attempts that they have to acquire the building the use of the building and have the city as a partnership

2:12:24In moving this forward as a creative center. Thank you

2:12:29Well, thank you very much. I got a few hands that have gone up now. I'm going to go alt boost a till and then caron. Okay

2:12:37Go ahead alt

2:12:40Thank you

2:12:43Thank you, mayor Guthrie through you to the delegate mr. McCauley. I have I think two questions for you

2:12:49One is the same that I asked the first delegate

2:12:51The concern has always been within the community that

2:12:55We often suffer a demolition by an neglect

2:12:58What I'm concerned about is demolition by financial limitations

2:13:02Um, can we be assured that a an arts consortium?

2:13:07Does have the financial capacity

2:13:10That it would appear the city does not

2:13:16I'm really not quite through you uh, mayor uh to uh, councillor Allt

2:13:20I'm not really the one to answer that question

2:13:22I think there are other people more qualified to talk about the financial

2:13:25Capability and the ongoing plan to move that forward

2:13:31Okay, thank you. Sorry. I thought because you were an architect you might

2:13:34Okay, yeah, I know I thought architects dealt with money too. Um, the other question that I have

2:13:42Uh is one that comes from uh, what the city said and it's one that does raise concern and I will ask staff

2:13:50Uh staff said that by selling this to somebody we could solve the problem by neglect and yet what I've also heard is through

2:13:56Um, the uh limited to lack of expressions of interest

2:14:01We don't have anybody

2:14:04We're showing that interest. I was wondering if you could comment on that it seems that we're going down the road to the city

2:14:10Uh address um, actually demolishing by neglect

2:14:17Uh through you council, uh, mayor guthrie. Um, what I would say to that is I look at other uses for the building that may be potential there

2:14:25And I'd have a lot of difficulty in terms of finding something that was so close to the rail track

2:14:30Without parking and in a restricted area that uh, basically is kind of hammed in

2:14:36It is a prime location obviously as a as a centerpiece to the city and a gateway

2:14:42But I think that the other uses as far as commercial is concerned is going to be very limited

2:14:46and I think that's been shown in terms of the the uh

2:14:49Offers that have been out there or the lack of offers and I can understand the industry

2:14:53especially uh today the market's a little different than it was

2:14:57in 2021 even and uh, we're finding a lot of properties that are sitting there vacant as you

2:15:03Well know throughout the city and looking for affordable housing and and various other uses that are badly needed as well

2:15:09So I don't see it as sight as having other potential

2:15:12Yeah, I do thank you for that because I I apologize for having put you on the spot before but I can well imagine that

2:15:20The use of a building like commercial is within your bailiwick

2:15:24One last question then you met you made reference to the term due diligence

2:15:28Could you please outline for me what you mean by due diligence on the the drill hall?

2:15:33What are we looking at or what what would an arts group be looking at?

2:15:38Like due due diligence

2:15:40Would be to go further into the design process which again is a collaborative process

2:15:46There may be interests that the city has as well in terms of what you would want to see in a in a community art space

2:15:53But certainly we'd have to flush this out in many meetings over a design process in many months

2:15:58To find out what uh, how the building would be

2:16:02Constructed what the potential is there without inhibiting

2:16:06Not only the zoning the official plan the strategic plan for it, but also the heritage value of the building

2:16:11So I think there's a lot of things that have to be studied in this and this is the due diligence that

2:16:17That has to happen over a number of years

2:16:19And of course we have to look at the potential as far as building code compliance is concerned and a number of structural things

2:16:25on top of that and layered as a very high priority is the

2:16:30intent to create a building that is uh, sustainable in terms of environmental and economic

2:16:38Sustainability in the in the long term to have it affordable either as a path to the building or net zero

2:16:45Building and also as a comfortable and accessible building that's uh, university accessible to all

2:16:50So these are all things that are lowered. I could go on and on about

2:16:54Yeah, the diligence uh, counselor, but I think that's enough to cover the no, I thank you very much

2:17:00I appreciate that I do hope that the capacity does exist

2:17:04I think this would be a great contribution to the revitalization of downtown, but I need to ask some of the tough questions

2:17:13Okay, thank you counselor. Abusatil then karat

2:17:16Thank you very much for your presentation. So I'm going to um

2:17:20Kind of date myself the Guelph Youth Music Center in the old heritage seed company

2:17:25um

2:17:26That was an organization the Suzuki string school that came with a building fund and was searching for a place and so on

2:17:33You know your involvement in there there were three components a little bit of cash in hand

2:17:38Lots of volunteer in kind, you know

2:17:42In there doing hands-on work and you mentioned in your presentation committed partners like that long-term commitment relationship

2:17:50I know you're an architect. So I'm not going to ask you the financial question

2:17:53But in that currency of development and transforming a building into you know, a viable economic

2:18:02Kind of entity. Do you feel?

2:18:05that the transformation of the drill hall is

2:18:08Possible and I'm really looking at the volunteering kind because hands-on in that youth music center

2:18:14We were there, you know taking nails out and and sanding and doing those kinds of things

2:18:19All of those elements. I mean there's the cash the volunteer and that long-term commitment

2:18:24That now has today the youth music center. Do you think that that is possible in your professional opinion?

2:18:32through your

2:18:33counselor America three and two guys were um, I would say yes, and I I know that through experience

2:18:39I would say probably 90 percent of the not-for-profit organizations. I've worked with have included volunteer labor

2:18:46That can be a hundred percent of it. I've seen some of them that were almost a hundred percent of the construction renovations were there

2:18:51I'm not saying that I want to throw that at these people and say that they're going to be in there doing

2:18:57Doing major structural work and that type of thing

2:19:00um, but it certainly is entirely possible to do a lot of work and

2:19:04The structure is basically there the bones are there and in good shape and I want to thank the city for

2:19:10the

2:19:11foresight that they have to move forward to stabilize that building I think it has to be protected

2:19:17In a lot of other ways as well

2:19:20Before they go further with it

2:19:21But no, I think it's quite possible

2:19:24And I think the other thing that is entirely possible is what we have to do is frame what?

2:19:29You can possibly do with the building. You're probably not going to have a huge gallery in there

2:19:34That's uh, you know has marble floors and all that type of thing

2:19:37I think it could be done on a shoestring to have the building have a presence

2:19:42Let that's why I talked earlier about doing the shell of the building as one project to bring it up to a standard that it looks like

2:19:47It's a

2:19:53Okay, so basically I would say from there there can be tenants working through the building and there are other examples of other

2:20:01Centers in hamilton and all in particularly that come come to mind that can be done on an ongoing basis

2:20:07So you do minimum renovations and the different tenants would probably have their own

2:20:12Uh requirements as far as their own space is concerned as well. So yes, I guess to answer your question

2:20:16My answer is yes, and I'm very confident that could be done

2:20:19Thank you very much. That's all mr. Mayor

2:20:22And karan please and then after karan katin

2:20:25Great, thank you. Um, some of my questions have already been answered, but um, I want to um,

2:20:30focus in on the the phased approach where it could be generating revenue at the same time that

2:20:37Work is being done and I believe you've addressed that and I wanted to tap into your

2:20:42Your knowledge of other projects of this nature and you've covered that

2:20:47So really my only remaining question is you've been in the building and you've just indicated the bones are good

2:20:53And uh, and that's great to hear and that that the work that the city has done has set this

2:20:58Next stage up for success

2:21:01so my question is more a matter of

2:21:05The capacity to do the work in the

2:21:10In the in the private sector in the artist community

2:21:13And it doesn't have to be the city that does that work that there's lots of in-kind potential. There's lots of

2:21:20Private sector potential. There's lots of fundraising and grant potential

2:21:25um, um, if the city is not

2:21:28able to commit to the to the

2:21:30capital for the next phase of turning this into

2:21:34A viable occupiable building and just tapping into the the experience that you've had working on other projects

2:21:43So as I understand the question counselor is that uh, are they capable of doing it?

2:21:50um

2:21:52And again, yes, um, I think it can be a phased approach

2:21:55And I think it should be a phased approach

2:21:57um, sometimes when you put a contractor in a project like this, it takes a lot longer

2:22:02um, but I think that with an involvement of the people and as I see it with the

2:22:07Not-for-profit organizations I've worked with

2:22:10Um, when people are committed to the project and they do put the time in as another counselor has mentioned counselor best tell

2:22:17You know, the people are on board with it

2:22:18And uh, and I think the enthusiasm grows from there as gifts in kind and that type of thing and not to mention that there's the whole

2:22:25construction industry which I wouldn't say operates that way, but certainly has that potential

2:22:30I'm dealing with materials and services that would be available and that as well

2:22:35So I think there's great potential in that and making it a community project from the ground up

2:22:42And and that's great. And then some of the some of the

2:22:45Reason for that question is just you've been in buildings like this in your career

2:22:50You've been in the former dominion seed factory

2:22:53You've been in the boat house when it was

2:22:56Well, you know when it was just a shell of a building

2:22:59Is the drill hall currently in a worse state a better state or about the same state as some of those other buildings that have been

2:23:06transformed into incredible community assets through vision and creativity and and community

2:23:14activism

2:23:15Um great example

2:23:17I could give you a slideshow that would horrify you uh, you know one building in particular in the rare

2:23:23charitable trust

2:23:24Was the stone barn and I took pictures of that and it's

2:23:28It was in much more deplorable condition in this building. So this building especially with the

2:23:33Remediation that has already been done as far as the structure and the foundations is concerned

2:23:37It's in very good shape

2:23:39And what you see is what you get. I mean the building is totally exposed on the interior

2:23:43So there aren't a lot of surprises in it anymore and I and I speak as an architect

2:23:48But I also speak for the structural engineer who went through and I wouldn't say gave it a clean bill of health

2:23:53Certainly, there's some things about it that need to be remediated

2:23:57But there's other things that are surprising

2:23:59There's a timber in there that would never be found today in old growth

2:24:03Forests that's in this building. That's just phenomenal in terms of a keepsake

2:24:08So things like that are individual and should be exposed and should be well known to the community as well

2:24:13Great. I really appreciate that perspective. Mr. McCauley. Thank you

2:24:18Great. And finally we have a councillor. Kate. Mr. Mayor

2:24:24I was just wondering. So are you here as a paid professional or are you here as a golf resident who is interested in this?

2:24:32Uh, thank thank you for the question just to clarify full disclosure. I'm a retired architect

2:24:39And I'm not here being paid for this. I'm a here as a citizen and that's the way I'm working with most of my projects now

2:24:44As a as a volunteer

2:24:46Great. Thank you so much

2:24:48Great. Thank you. I just have a question. Would you like to be paid?

2:24:52Okay

2:24:54Sure

2:24:55Little levy a little levy. All right. Love it. All right. Um, thank you very much, uh, David

2:25:00Janine Smith. I saw a hand call up. So you are here

2:25:04and then after that, um

2:25:06We had seraphane, but seraphane is withdrawn

2:25:09And so we're going to look to see if Susan Ratcliffe will join us by phone

2:25:14But uh, janine, uh, I'll turn it over to you. You go right ahead

2:25:24Okay, that sounds better. Thank you very much. Mr. Mayor council staff and the gallery and delegates behind me also

2:25:31Uh, I'd first like to start uh by introducing the fourth member of the board of the gcva who cannot attend today

2:25:38Many of you probably know victoria coats

2:25:41She is a retired community registered nurse

2:25:44And victoria knows very well the challenges facing various sectors and the opportunity to create art and accessible

2:25:50Affordable space and the difference it will be make it will make to many people

2:25:55Her decades of community involvement add a deep understanding of the relationship between art making and improved health

2:26:02Dollars spent on artistic development can reasonably be considered to fall into the health promotion category

2:26:08She is dedicated to the gcva vision of all artists creating under the same roof

2:26:13Which will surely promote synergy well-being and connections

2:26:17My name is janine smith

2:26:20I am an entrepreneur a self-taught artist and a founding board member of the gcva

2:26:26My career began in criminology

2:26:28Gerontology and working with people with disabilities in short the folks who mainstream society doesn't hold space for

2:26:35Individuals whose ambitions and skills are deemed less important less productive and less significant than others

2:26:42This awareness of the exclusionary nature of our society informs every project i'm involved in

2:26:49This proposal for the creation of a community art space weaves my social services background with best business practices and my love of the visual arts

2:26:58I would like to start with a favor to each of you. We meet in difficult financial times

2:27:04We are facing a housing crisis and inflation where the cost of living is outpacing many families ability to thrive

2:27:11It is a time when the socioeconomic barriers are magnified

2:27:14The sentiment from some is that now is not the time to be spending money on the arts

2:27:19I disagree

2:27:20Now is the moment when we can commit to the creation of a community asset that serves and supports all citizens

2:27:27This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to repurpose a heritage landmark and create a high-profile

2:27:33world-class center for visual art in the city of guelph

2:27:36Please consider the GCVA proposal to revitalize the drill hall under its own merits not under the shadow cast by the broader picture

2:27:44No one in this room is naive enough to think that this project will be without obstacles

2:27:49But change is the only constant and when change comes the drill hall will still be here waiting

2:27:56We are asking for commitment by city staff to work with us to develop an agreement that facilitates this project

2:28:03Within the current environment and considering the culture plan that was adopted in october

2:28:09We understand the importance of accountability and planning if you don't know where you're going you're going to end up someplace else

2:28:15The GCVA is approaching this as a not-for-profit business endeavor

2:28:20In order to be sustainable. We must ensure the long-term viability of the drill hall as a community art space

2:28:26We need a solid foundation and a phased approach as has been mentioned before

2:28:29And we must ensure we're meeting our targets. So what are our targets?

2:28:35Our proposal includes a key set of I'm sorry a set of key performance indicators or KPIs

2:28:42That outline our commitment to the advancement of artistic expression

2:28:46community well-being and sustainable development

2:28:50If we are given the opportunity to proceed we have already identified the following KPIs to track our progress and hold ourselves accountable to our goals

2:28:58I'm going to summarize them here. There is more context and detail included in our proposal

2:29:05Primarily and first and foremost diversity and inclusivity across cultures abilities and identities in participation

2:29:13governance and programming of the GCVA

2:29:17Full accessibility for all members of the community

2:29:21Tracking community engagement such as the number of community members participating in programs and events

2:29:26We can assess the educational outreach and impact of workshops classes and mentorship programs

2:29:34Now revenue generation is the obvious elephant in the room getting a project of this scope sustainable within our five-year goal will be challenging

2:29:43That's okay. We are creative

2:29:45There are many ways to generate revenue including membership fees rental income grants

2:29:51Sponsorships donations commissions and sales

2:29:53I got the ding so I will close

2:29:56Uh this proposal deserves a chance

2:29:59It represents countless volunteer hours thousands of conversations expertise and advice from a multitude of experts

2:30:06The GCVA proposal presents a compelling opportunity and deserves thorough consideration

2:30:11Not despite the broader problems and limitations our city is facing but because of them the future depends on what we do today. Thank you

2:30:20Oh, you practice that. Oh, no, I missed some

2:30:22Um, well done. Don't walk away. Just I I have a couple of three questions for you. It looks like I'm going to go galler

2:30:30Kate and then Klosson. Okay

2:30:34Thank you and through your worship. Thank you for your presentation

2:30:37Since you brought up the dollars and cents, I would like to ask you in the staff report it indicates that there is

2:30:46Potentially not much money coming but in the presentation that you made you talked about

2:30:51A scale of profit sharing

2:30:54Could you let us know, you know, how have there been forecasts?

2:30:57Have you seen that other communities with organizations like this actually do generate revenue to that scale that we could see?

2:31:04money coming to the city to repay investments or you know, if you can talk a little bit about that

2:31:11I'll probably defer that to my esteemed colleague Mike Salisbury. He's going to talk more about the financial aspects

2:31:18I will say right now. This is a proposal. So I mean, there's lots of options available and

2:31:26We are open to looking at all different kinds of ways of generating revenue and be

2:31:31Sustainability is one of the the primary goals of our group

2:31:35Perfect. I will ask that again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor. Kate and then Klosson

2:31:40Thank you through you, mr. Mayor

2:31:42Um, so a lot of folks have been talking about the space being publicly accessible

2:31:47And I hear that you're talking about membership fees. So

2:31:51Can you please clarify what would be publicly accessible and this is a for pay for use by different artists?

2:32:00Thank you, and I don't really the protocol is through mayor to councillor

2:32:04This is my first time. Yes. Okay. I I'm sorry. I don't want to offend anyone

2:32:09Uh, yeah, again, I mean, I think right now

2:32:12All of the options are on the table and our goal would be sustainability. So no one is turned away

2:32:19membership fees are definitely an option for generating revenue not the only option and uh,

2:32:25I mean, I think our mandate would be that

2:32:28What makes sense to the community and what best serves the people that are coming is the way we would go

2:32:34Again, I mean this has to be a collaborative effort between our group between the city between community and

2:32:42We don't have all the answers yet. Uh, we've set the table and we're sending out invitations

2:32:48Great. Thank you

2:32:50Thank you councillor and clausen

2:32:54Yes, thank you. Um, councillor Goller asked my question. So thank you

2:33:00Okay, that's it. Thank you very much

2:33:05Now is uh, is susan wrackliffe available? No, okay. We're going to skip that

2:33:11um, and uh, cavena

2:33:13Is an here front row. There you go

2:33:20That's okay. And venet vanessa hylent is venessa here

2:33:24Okay. Yeah, sorry. I didn't see you there. Yeah, you're in the wings. Okay

2:33:28So go ahead. Uh, I'll turn it over to you. Mr. Mayor members of council

2:33:32I'm here to support the gulf center for visual arts application to turn the drill hall into a venue for public art creation

2:33:39education exhibition and sale

2:33:42As someone whose early career included a few years in tours and pr and marketing

2:33:48And as an avid tourist of visual art spaces and places in cities around the world

2:33:53I'm excited by what a gift this space could become to gulf as both a cultural gemstone and an economic driver

2:34:01The citizens of gulf have long been in support of having their major civic and cultural institutions located in the city center

2:34:09That's not something unique to gulf

2:34:12Housing cultural operations in cities in city cores

2:34:16Satisfies a deep human yearning for gathering together

2:34:20Gualt supported this need for years

2:34:23Instead of tearing down and building a new we restored city hall at the

2:34:27Excuse me and the youth music center. We built the sleam and center downtown to house live

2:34:34entertainment and sports and those events draw people into the city

2:34:39To have fun and to spend money at outside of their venues

2:34:43More recently the city again invested in keeping a major cultural institution in the downtown core

2:34:49with the new public library

2:34:52You you could have built it in the ever expanding south end

2:34:55But well fights won't wanted their main library to remain downtown

2:34:59Now figuratively speaking if you think of gulf as having a defined cultural face

2:35:06That it presents to the world

2:35:09Our face

2:35:10Has a head or brain that's represented by the library

2:35:14Years representing our music community and a mouth representing live entertainment

2:35:19But the eyes that represent the windows to the soul of visual arts in our city are not fixed in the center of

2:35:26Of our cultural face as one should expect

2:35:30Instead gulf's visual arts are represented by a situation akin to a number of eyes stuck all over the body

2:35:37And for a city that wants to present itself as educated culture and forward thinking

2:35:43Something is wrong with that picture something feels like it's missing

2:35:46And i'm not slamming modern art, but for cultural branding to be effective and successful

2:35:52It has to be instantly recognizable and relatable

2:35:56From the point of view of someone who's written many years

2:35:59I find the lack of a central home for visual artistry and gulf frustrating

2:36:04In in the downtown core specific specifically

2:36:07Despite the fact that the city has hundreds of visual art makers. It's not that easy to find their wares

2:36:14Yes, we have the art gallery of gulf at the university

2:36:17But I think for most folks it's still a drive by and it's still more exclusive to the university community

2:36:24The other thing I find limiting as both artist and patron is that arts organizations and gulf are too segregated by age

2:36:31When it comes to making exhibiting and even selling art

2:36:35Giving young people the opportunity to make art alongside experienced artists is a wonderful way

2:36:42Excuse me to model diligence perseverance risk taking sharing of ideas and the discernment to judge your own work as being good

2:36:51Or not so much today

2:36:54That's a straight up confidence builder and young people need that because it's indisputable. They aren't getting it from social media

2:37:02In addition to segregation most artists also face the challenge of isolation

2:37:07The popular image of artists preferring to work in a lonely garret is a fallacy and miss morris has already spoken about that

2:37:14Artists have just as great a need to work in the company of others as anyone else does

2:37:19It's really not that different mr. Mayor and counselors

2:37:22From the way you work often quietly in your offices and homes

2:37:27But when you need to discuss a problem or bounce an idea off someone

2:37:32You want to be able to walk across the hall and do that or have someone handy to go for coffee or lunch with just to have a break

2:37:39COVID taught us all how working in isolation is a poor substitute for real productive engagement

2:37:46Yet this is something wealth artists have to deal with every day

2:37:49Because there's no collective affordable operating space they can rent even if temporarily

2:37:55Having such a space also helps address the need to share large expensive equipment

2:37:59And additionally a collective space can also provide a repository

2:38:04Uh to upcycle leftover unwanted supplies

2:38:08Finally as to whether the drill hall is an ideal location for in all ages and stages

2:38:13Place for making and selling art and wealth

2:38:15I can't I can I can't think of a better use for it and the market interest uh report council commission backed that up

2:38:23An art making an exhibition space that is steps off the train station

2:38:28Uh, which now has added service to and from wealth and the bus station with no need for extra parking beyond a few spots for people with disabilities

2:38:37Is nothing short of a gift to the city as a revenue generator. So please put this sale on hold

2:38:43and give the great team of experienced people

2:38:47A chance to continue on thank you perfect. Thank you

2:38:51Um, and let me just see if there's a follow-up for you. I just didn't I knew you were on your last sentence

2:38:55So I didn't want to cut you off. I did have I could just just one second. Yeah, let me see if there's a question from anyone

2:39:02Okay, there isn't okay now. This is not normal. I'm going back to you which I

2:39:08I shouldn't be doing is there something

2:39:11Can I can I give you like literally 15 seconds?

2:39:14Okay, you got 15 seconds because I'm a nice guy. I can give you a very quick example of something that

2:39:20Michael gallery did recently that's been a huge programming success in revenue generator

2:39:26Um, looks like councillor Goller wants to ask a question

2:39:30Okay through your worship

2:39:33If you have any examples of revenue generation, I would appreciate hearing about it. How about that? Okay

2:39:38So mcmichael, um, I think they started this early

2:39:43Either last year early this year. They started a program called sip and create

2:39:48They have a little tiny classroom space outside the main gallery

2:39:52and the idea of sip and create was to have a two and a half hour workshop for

2:39:58Non-professional artists just sent, you know, you don't if you can hold a pencil

2:40:03You can join in

2:40:05the

2:40:07the

2:40:08classroom

2:40:09Accommodates about 25 people and it's about 40 to 50 dollars to attend depending on

2:40:16Whether you're your member or not

2:40:18So that they tried to they tried it for a few months. It was an instant hit and

2:40:23It's now been extended to 12 months of year with two sessions per month

2:40:28And there is always a waiting list. I'm one of the people that drives an hour and a quarter to go there

2:40:34I'd rather do it and go well

2:40:36Furthermore people who attend go on to spend more money in the gallery's restaurant gift shop

2:40:41So I've estimated the average spend per person per event is probably in the neighborhood of I would say 65 to 75 dollars

2:40:51with 50 attendees per month and

2:40:54You know what we're proposing here. You could hold a lot more. That's 45,000 dollars a year

2:41:00Now if the gvca could hold two two events like that per month

2:41:04Only that type of event and with that space increase the number of people attending per event

2:41:11They could be pouring an extra hundred thousand dollars

2:41:14into their coffers and downtown business

2:41:19Not to change. Thank you very much. That's very helpful. Thank you. Thank you worship. Thank you. That's an excellent question

2:41:26Okay, we have nothing more for you. So thank you very much

2:41:30Uh, Vanessa, you are in the wings. I can see and our last is mcSalesbury who I know is here

2:41:37So Mike you're in the wings. Vanessa. I will turn it over to you. Go right ahead

2:41:42Mr. Mayor

2:41:44counselors city staff

2:41:47community members

2:41:49I'm delegating to you in support of the wealth center for visual arts proposal for using the drill hall

2:41:55as a community shared space for the arts sector

2:41:59I think this their proposal the coming together of the

2:42:04Investment that the city has made in the drill hall all the work that city staff has done to

2:42:10assess potential uses for the drill hall and the creation of the wealth

2:42:15the incorporation of the wealth center for visual arts is a

2:42:19Is a fortuitous

2:42:21opportunity for the city to work with this group to increase

2:42:27Support for the arts and cultural sector

2:42:30A sector that as we've all acknowledged contributes to local economic development and community well-being

2:42:37I my purpose in delegating today is to

2:42:41Affirm or emphasize what miss Lisa and Janice has already referred to in her presentation

2:42:49That the search for this type of collaborative art space

2:42:53is not

2:42:54Something that just came in came about in response to the city's request for expressions of interest

2:43:01But has been a long time community search

2:43:05My own direct experience with this has been as a volunteer with the gulf arts platform

2:43:11Which actually dates back to 2009

2:43:14When james gordon hosted a meeting at ten carden

2:43:18to assess interest

2:43:20And I attended since my youngest daughter

2:43:23And her friends were asking me about low rent spaces where they could gather

2:43:28for creative projects

2:43:30And that meeting was the initiation of the incorporation of the gulf arts platform

2:43:35A not-for-profit with a vision of creating a collaborative community art space for both

2:43:41For both visual and performing arts

2:43:43The name platform was actually inspired by the drill hall because we considered that space

2:43:50And it was conveniently located close to the platforms of the city's transportation hub

2:43:56Joanne grozinski who had been involved with the gulf youth music center

2:44:02Mentored the platform through incorporation as a not-for-profit the city funded arts scape to mentor several arts

2:44:10organizations including the platform

2:44:12And the gulf arts platform took on the task of coordinating a request for expressions of interest

2:44:19A process that garnered interest from

2:44:23That established that there was interest in 30 000 square feet

2:44:28um, that's a number that I had occasion to ride the elevator in the wellington building up to the gulf arts council

2:44:35office when it was on the fourth floor

2:44:38And chester crary had a real estate business on the second floor, I believe

2:44:43And I would tell chester that we were looking for 30 000 square feet

2:44:47And he would just shake his head and say that's a lot of space

2:44:52um

2:44:56Mayor guthrie you attended some of our

2:44:59engagement

2:45:01Out sessions in fact some of them were held here at city hall and you saw firsthand the enthusiasm from youth

2:45:08In this vision for an arts center

2:45:11uh together the arts platform and volunteers explored initiatives and other communities such as the hamilton's pearl

2:45:19hamilton's james st. Fourth friday art crawl the brandford's arts block

2:45:24and our amongst our board members is jenny michael and nan hog they attended

2:45:30Mentoring session with arts scape to look at how their various initiatives were funded

2:45:37And during that time we probably explored over 30

2:45:4130 30 potential spaces with the assistance of realtors

2:45:46Including vacant industrial buildings the former univorail site, which is now a las blocs

2:45:52lofts the carlson reed administrative site on daufferin street

2:45:55Several esic street locations

2:45:58The location now known as silence and we spoke with several downtown landlords to name just a few tony deep

2:46:05Deepa tista and the young men family

2:46:08um

2:46:09And the arts platform attracted numerous

2:46:12talented young people as

2:46:14Is the creative the well center for visual arts attracting creative young people who want to nourish creativity in this

2:46:22in this city, so I will

2:46:26finalize my comments by saying that

2:46:30I think this is a unique opportunity for the city to work with the well center for visual arts to

2:46:36Further support the arts and culture sector in our community

2:46:41Great. Thank you. And is there any follow-up questions?

2:46:45Seeing none. Thank you very much

2:46:47Oh, was there someone today who was it? Oh, I'm so sorry counter. Uh, karan. I'm so sorry. I did not see your hand go up

2:46:54Go ahead. Uh, great. Thank you for the delegation for giving the historical context of 2009 with the platform

2:47:01um

2:47:02This I mean, I think that historical context is important to know how long this has been going on

2:47:07But I want to talk about how broad based the current proposals

2:47:10So this is not a small group that has convened. This is this is a really wide ranging group

2:47:17I wonder if you can talk to the extent of who this gcda is and and how many

2:47:26organizations or people or or

2:47:28constituencies or demographics are involved

2:47:31in in this proposal

2:47:36through you mayor gath rate, uh

2:47:39Uh

2:47:40Councillor Caron, I think I will also defer the answer to that question to mike salisbury

2:47:49Fair enough, please

2:47:52No problem

2:47:53Uh, okay, uh, mike salisbury come on up, please and uh, thank you very much for

2:47:59Uh, for joining us and I will turn it over to you

2:48:07Thank you

2:48:09I'd like to provide council with a high level summary of our plan to establish a community art space

2:48:15In addition to our 12 page proposal, we included a 42 page appendix a lot of the questions that you've asked

2:48:22Basically any technical question you may have it's in here

2:48:26Most importantly though our proposal also included 36 pages of endorsements from community partners

2:48:33including powerful letters from the gulf arts council 10c

2:48:37Musa gettys foundation community hearts of hearts

2:48:41Immigrant services the gulf chamber of commerce as well as support from the university of gulf

2:48:47numerous business owners guilds

2:48:50associations and organizations

2:48:53Approach our approach includes three distinct phases and each phase has a component that deals with the building and the community

2:49:00In phase one we continue to collaborate with the community to to to

2:49:04Dermen the essential elements that are going to be included in the building our guiding principle is empowering

2:49:11Sustainable artistic practice think of it like an artist incubator supporting creative entrepreneurs

2:49:18Now one example how we're going to how we imagine doing this would be providing access to facilities that most individuals cannot afford

2:49:24We have not had extensive conversations about this. I'm going to use an example

2:49:29From the city to make my point

2:49:31Imagine a scenario where the city owned prop

2:49:34Pottery facility currently burdened with high overhead costs for a standalone building decides to relocate to the community art space

2:49:42This move results ideally in the pottery facility gaining more space at less cost

2:49:47While the gulf cva acquires an anchor tenant together then we collaborate to develop enhanced programming and opportunities that will benefit the community

2:49:56Phase one is all about answering the questions that you're asking tonight

2:50:00Because there's a great many unknowns our proposal is supported by an incredible technical team

2:50:06architects engineers project managers and several individuals with extensive experience in adaptive reuse projects in gulf

2:50:14During the walkthrough several significant issues and opportunities were identified. So phase one is where we articulate the most effective path forward

2:50:24Based upon our proposed use

2:50:26Which we expect to be far less expensive than the typical office use standard that I think maybe staff used in their cost estimate

2:50:34At the end of phase one, there's a jump off point

2:50:37Maybe we get to there and we decide nobody wants to do this

2:50:41Maybe we decide full steam ahead or maybe we decide to revisit the agreement based upon the improved certainty that we've got

2:50:48In phase one phase two brings on renovations and our preferred option

2:50:53The drill hall remains in public ownership and it's a shared responsibility

2:50:58Basically the external shell being responsible for the city and all of the costs with internal fit out being born by the gulf cva

2:51:06Both of those can be phased. I want to point out though that even in its current state

2:51:11We can achieve the objective of adaptive reuse almost immediately

2:51:15And there's a long romantic history of artists using abandoned spaces dating back to the 1970s

2:51:21Most famously Andy Warhol and his contemporaries were known for their innovative use of abandoned spaces in new york city

2:51:28This resulted in an art movement that literally changed the world

2:51:32Within this context the community art space starts paying dividends

2:51:35immediately

2:51:37completion of phase two allows us to realize full capacity as we move into the operations phase

2:51:42Phase three operations in this phase

2:51:44In our with our proposal we start paying back rent to the city on a sliding scale starting on day one

2:51:50And we plan to achieve operational self-sufficiency in five years

2:51:55As far as the community perspective, that's when the magic happens and we begin to see the impact of this aspirational vision

2:52:01I do want to point out a key point though

2:52:04It is the community that has come together to develop a flexible adaptable

2:52:10entrepreneurial focus solution to the drill hall

2:52:13And yes, our proposal did include a modest request for operational support during the first five years

2:52:19a pittance really compared to the funds already spent to date and with promises of outstanding returns not just financially

2:52:27But within all the metrics of community development

2:52:31Let us help you

2:52:33Let us help you find the money to complete restoration of the drill hall other levels of government foundations the community

2:52:41Let us help you build community resistance and recover from the pandemic

2:52:45And thrive in the face of the current financial crisis that we're all facing

2:52:50Let us help you achieve the vision of your own strategic plan

2:52:54And I recently heard a famous quote

2:52:56Art is the highest form of hope

2:52:58I think as we navigate the aftermath of the pandemic and the financial crisis that we're in

2:53:03Hope and inspiration by a community art space is not a luxury

2:53:08It's a necessity

2:53:10Thank you. I'm available for any questions you may have

2:53:13Great, thanks, mike. Really appreciate it. I almost called you counselor cells right there

2:53:19It's happened before I literally almost did

2:53:23Like me you've been called worse, right? There. I've been called worse by better. That's right

2:53:28Uh, counselor alt uh, and then I'm gonna go counselor. I'm gonna stay on the screen alt richardson and then kate

2:53:36And then I'll come around here. Okay. Thank you very much. Um, air guthrie through you to mr. Salisbury

2:53:44The reference was made to the drill hall as a stranded asset

2:53:49I am concerned not in this case for demolition by neglect

2:53:53But by demolition by in affordability to to be able to conserve

2:53:58What's the time frame to ensure that this building does not fall the way some others have in guave?

2:54:06If you could help me understand I've heard you paste that question a couple times. I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're asking

2:54:12Can you rephrase the question?

2:54:14Yeah, where's the money?

2:54:16Ah, absolutely

2:54:19Uh, well, it depends on what you're asking for as far as our organization is concerned and I would have to go back

2:54:25To the appendices, but there is an entire

2:54:28um

2:54:30an entire list of uh,

2:54:32preliminary

2:54:34Income streams that we have for operation. I think the hardest thing is going to be capital. Um, but there is a

2:54:40You know in addition to all of all of the

2:54:45funding that's available for

2:54:47economic development downtown revitalization and tourism the arts has

2:54:52Funding streams specific to it many of them are more suitable for

2:54:57Operations after a while, but there are some for even this phase

2:55:00But even the five million dollars that was spent to date that wasn't all from

2:55:05Taxes that uh, that came from gas tax and other intergovernmental funds. So the short answer

2:55:11I don't have an exact idea exactly where all of the money is the long answer is let's walk down that road together and find it

2:55:21Thank you. I'm not opposed to it. It is actually on the capital side of things that I'm concerned

2:55:26I want to make certain this building remains viable. So that's why I'm asking you the tough question

2:55:31Okay, if I can answer that then yes, absolutely. Here's the thing with the community art space. We're talking about workspace

2:55:37We're talking about it goes back to that idea of

2:55:401970s new york city where um, there was a lot of abandoned space being taken up by artists

2:55:46This is one of the few

2:55:48Uses of the building first of all that has a lower

2:55:51cost to achieve the objective, but also

2:55:56I mean our aspiration is is way up here. We can start almost right away and and I think uh

2:56:03David mccally spoke to that idea of a phased approach

2:56:06I mean, yeah, what we're showing here. This vision is absolutely aspirational. This is what we want to go

2:56:12How we get there how long it takes?

2:56:15That could that could be a different question

2:56:18I want to just say though when I started I looked at it and I said who who do we need on this advisory team?

2:56:25and I started looking at people like David mccally and and and and other professionals in the field and what turned up

2:56:33was humbling we had

2:56:37Consultants who were donating their time. We had professionals who were donating their time. We the entire

2:56:45operational plan in terms of the division of floor space and the appropriate use of that floor space

2:56:52I didn't do you know, I may be here answering the questions, but I did not write the entire thing

2:56:56That was written by people who really knew what they were doing and they presented a case that said, you know what?

2:57:01You should be able to make this work

2:57:04so

2:57:05similarly regardless as to what challenges we face I have absolutely

2:57:10Uh, no doubt whatsoever that we can draw upon the community for some expertise when we need it

2:57:21Councillor Allt are you with us still?

2:57:24Thank you

2:57:26Okay, uh Richardson then Keaton

2:57:31And thank you. Thank you, uh, mayor Guthrie through you to uh, mr. Salisbury. Thank you for your presentation

2:57:38You caught my ear a little bit when you were delving into some of the operational funding

2:57:42Can you tell me what the impact of not including operational funding in this initiative would be?

2:57:50You know, whether it's in our official plan or downtown

2:57:54uh

2:57:55The Parliament plan

2:57:57Tourism the community plan whether council wants to talk about supporting the arts or staff want to talk about supporting arts

2:58:04The long story short is that we need to come at this together in a collaborative environment

2:58:10Uh, you know money talks and bs walks there has to be a commitment from the city

2:58:16That at least matches the effort that we're putting into it now. We recognize it's a difficult time right now

2:58:23But we've got a whole year worth of planning before we even can quantify what that actually means

2:58:29Um, and again our plan is aspirational. Do we think we can start day one using it?

2:58:34I actually do believe that we can in the same way that the gulf music theater

2:58:39uh pulled together through

2:58:42Volunteers and we're able to start using that and get value out of it right away

2:58:48Thank you

2:58:51Thank you. Keaton then karan

2:58:55Premier to mr. Salisbury

2:58:57So you're mentioning that you wanted to

2:59:00Get you set it right away and you had multiple phases for the construction. I'm just wondering how would you?

2:59:06Um, ensure that there would be accessibility to the building for all people of disabilities

2:59:11initially because those are pretty

2:59:14Large structural things that need to be completed into very high standards for that and to be clear you're speaking physical accessibility

2:59:23um

2:59:24disability accessibility which can be mobility or environmental

2:59:29There's a lot of neurodivergencies any of the disabilities because all of them need to be

2:59:35Considered absolutely they they do

2:59:38Um, there's a three-story building if you consider the ground level is one story

2:59:42So from a physical accessibility perspective, uh, you have you know, if you're able to get into the building

2:59:48You'd have use of that ground floor

2:59:51This is all speculative in nature. This is all visionary in nature

2:59:55We've kicked around the idea of having a

2:59:58An opening art show in the facility as close to

3:00:02As it is right now to allow people in to see what we're up against

3:00:08We would have to be work with staff to make sure that we've met all of the requirements that are

3:00:12To ensure a safe facility to ensure a an accessible facility, but

3:00:16Um, it doesn't have to be finished before we can do that

3:00:23So you're sorry to mr. Mayor um to mr. Salisbury. So you're saying that

3:00:29You wouldn't begin this process only when it was physically accessible by

3:00:35No, I'll go I'll go back to standards or

3:00:38I'll go back to phase one

3:00:39There's just so many questions to answer the entire purpose of the first phase is to answer those questions

3:00:46As far as in the interim being able to use the facility

3:00:50There's a lot of questions even to answer to be able to give you a response to your to your inquiry

3:00:55as far as accessibility and washrooms and safety, so

3:01:01In some ways, I'm not able to answer that question because the entire phase one of our proposal

3:01:07Is designed to allow us to get a better handle on that

3:01:11There is the theoretical possibility that we'll get to the end and we'll find that it's a project that is not viable

3:01:17But there's equally an opportunity for us to begin this project and find out that we can produce

3:01:23incredible results with community

3:01:26attention to this issue for a fraction of the cost of what we've been told that it will take to do

3:01:32Thanks and my final question um through mr. Mayor to mr. Salisbury

3:01:36Uh, what is the equity plan that your team has in terms of board members people that you're consulting with?

3:01:46to make sure that

3:01:48There is diverse inclusions through the community. That's a great question we

3:01:58Keep in mind that what we have before us right now is uh a conceptual a concept a proposal a vision

3:02:05And so some of the exactly how we're going to get there

3:02:08Questions we don't have answers for at this point

3:02:11But what we do know is that inclusion

3:02:15And cultural diversity and a reflection of our community in all of its shapes forms colors and sizes

3:02:22Is the currency of what this facility is i'll draw your attention if you if you

3:02:27I don't know if you've had access to to to view our proposal, but the um

3:02:33The land acknowledgement goes further than than looking at acknowledging

3:02:40The history of the place and speaks to the responsibility we have to bring

3:02:45To use a cultural facility like this to bring us together

3:02:49And so one of the first kpi's I believe speaks to that and so we've said we've identified these issues as things that are

3:02:56Absolutely critical to our success and high and very important to our to our cause

3:03:01Exactly how we're going to get there. We haven't done that work yet. That's the first year

3:03:06Great, but it's a guiding principle and it's it's really it's not even uh a guiding principle. It's the make it or break it issue

3:03:14Thanks, I appreciate your answer

3:03:18Okay, thank you. Uh karan then clausen

3:03:21I think the only questions have been

3:03:24Asked and I don't want to use up my five minutes of time. I just have one quick one because I I will be putting an alternate motion

3:03:30If the stack of recommendation fails and the motion includes a one-year opportunity period where those those funding opportunities

3:03:39And community capacity and negotiations would take place. Um, mr. Salisbury is a year

3:03:44sufficient time for that to take place

3:03:47That is consistent with our proposal actually

3:03:51However, I will I will know that um, whatever we can do moving towards giving the community a sense

3:04:02of

3:04:03Collaboration and a sense of goodwill and certainty in the process that we're all moving together in the same direction to try to achieve

3:04:13Something that is at this point hard to conceive how we're going to get there

3:04:17Um, I think we need to to work together in a collaborative environment to make that happen

3:04:26Thank you so much clausen and then I'm moving to uh around the horseshoe here. So downer would be after clausen

3:04:35Mr. Salisbury, um, I just I had a I have two questions

3:04:39The first one is you talked about adaptive reuse in your delegation

3:04:43and I am I I'm very

3:04:47Much a supporter of adaptive reuse and I have you know, I off the top of my head when I was thinking of this question

3:04:53I thought of four spaces

3:04:55um maker space north in ottawa

3:04:58Cotton factory in hamilton button factory arts in the waterloo region

3:05:02Alton bill arts center in alton and I was just wondering and I I presume that you

3:05:08You know reviewed these models in in your in your research, but I also wondered if you had other successful models

3:05:15That more that nearer more what you're proposing

3:05:20Or the the potential use of the doll

3:05:23No, absolutely. I'll start off by saying that there is absolutely nothing that we need to invent here

3:05:28It's all been done before and the resources

3:05:33In the appendices. There's an entire section that speaks to the resources that are available to us to help us

3:05:40But for me, I think one of the closest to home examples

3:05:44That was a bit of the genesis for this idea

3:05:48Is in dundas ontario

3:05:50The name alludes me right now, but I'm sure if you look up dundas ontario art

3:05:55Artist center or something like that and they they have a lot of their

3:06:01Their particular focus because it's a huge building

3:06:04They've created stages and sets and stuff a big photograph

3:06:08Photography angle to their thing and that's really part of the process for us to go through at this point

3:06:14We've reached out and said what do you think of this idea?

3:06:18Some people said this is a great idea

3:06:20Some people said this

3:06:22I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try that one again and some have said well, you know, maybe I'm interested

3:06:27Maybe I'm not the first step is to see who actually wants to participate

3:06:32You know I use the example of pottery as an example one of the things that's been really fun with this

3:06:37Is you we go out and we think we've talked to everyone

3:06:40And then there's a whole other level and then we get that level done

3:06:44I mean, oh, yeah, we've definitely talked and there's it just seems to keep going

3:06:47So we found pottery facilities that I was completely unaware of maybe there's no need for additional pottery facilities

3:06:54and I use pottery as an example because it's one of the things that

3:06:58Allows artists to like that's a facility that that they don't have access to but printmaking is just a

3:07:05similar example that speaks to

3:07:08Being economically sustainable being able to produce replicas. So the first step is is is as much trying to understand

3:07:16Where's the need?

3:07:18Who wants to participate?

3:07:20How do they want to participate and how does that factor into a sustainable business plan?

3:07:29Great. Thank you. Mr. Salisbury that

3:07:32Actually leads really perfectly into my next question, which is um

3:07:36That a few delegates have stated that there are actually no affordable art spaces in Guelph

3:07:41but right downtown we do have necessary arts who provide studio spaces for rent at various different price points and

3:07:49include co-working for example

3:07:51So I was just curious if you've been able to connect with them

3:07:54um

3:07:56And if not, maybe you could consider connecting with them. Absolutely the um the proposal proper

3:08:03Believe it's the proposal lists the no, it's the appendices. Sorry. It goes back to those appendices every question

3:08:10Um lists all of the organizations we reached out to not all of them are going to want to participate

3:08:15Not all of them are going to see it as an opportunity

3:08:18um

3:08:19and

3:08:20Equally it's it's not an either or question

3:08:24There's all kinds of space out there, but if you ask many of the people behind me

3:08:28They would say almost unanimously not enough and so it speaks to a deficit and it speaks to a need

3:08:34And that first part of that of the of our of our proposal speaks to articulating what that is and building a business case around that

3:08:42I mean we want to bring up

3:08:45organizations and collaborate

3:08:48There's lots of room to do that, you know

3:08:50And up to and including not participating at all and then the question becomes. Okay. How do we offer services that don't compete with the existing?

3:08:59ecosystem arts ecosystem in town

3:09:02um, so again, it's it's really speaks to that first phase being required to to really better comp

3:09:10Quantify exactly what it is we're up against

3:09:15great. Thank you. I really appreciate your

3:09:18Questions to my questions

3:09:21Thank you. I'll move down down here. So we got downer and then a roar

3:09:29Thank you three um new mega three too much to salsberg

3:09:33um

3:09:33So I just want to confirm this you think this is so we talked about the golf youth music center and that was peripheral involved in that

3:09:41Do you think you can do that kind of a model where it was the city just sort of said okay

3:09:47At least it's the building for a dollar and then through volunteers and grants and fundraising. They made it happen

3:09:53I mean they had some seed money to begin with

3:09:58The short answer is yes, you know at the beginning of this process when we

3:10:02When we looked at the potential outcomes one of the things we said is okay

3:10:06If you had access to the building and nothing else would just still be interested

3:10:10Because that's a real possibility and apparently that's where we are today

3:10:14Maybe

3:10:15And the answer was yes now does that

3:10:19Realize the vision maybe does it take longer? Absolutely. Will it put it in jeopardy? Probably

3:10:26It's a bit like giving somebody a car not you know telling them they got to get out to the east coast

3:10:30But not giving them gas if they're motivated enough they'll push it all the way

3:10:34Or they'll stop halfway and give up and realize that they've been set up into a situation

3:10:38they can't succeed in and so

3:10:41Absolutely, there's room to approach this from so many different angles with so many different funding options

3:10:48But i'm convinced that

3:10:50Just from the reaction that we've had in the community so far

3:10:53There is such a pent up demand for this. There is such an interest the a team that I was able to assemble to put this proposal together

3:11:02I was I was moved. You know I I went for the best

3:11:06I said okay, I'm gonna go after the best and then we'll go down the list from there

3:11:09I didn't have to go down the list

3:11:11And so similarly, you know whether it's fundraising or whether it's it's engaging the community in terms of

3:11:18Community support for different aspects of it. The one thing I know for certain is that the community will show up

3:11:24So I don't know what we're gonna need. I don't know how we're gonna do it

3:11:27But I can tell you that when we get there the community will have our back and we can we can move this into something

3:11:32That we can all be proud of yeah, so I just want to correct the city did do a few things

3:11:37They weigh development charges and things like that. I remember about the time there was other but there was no capital or operating

3:11:45Provided

3:11:48The other thing to their success was that they had

3:11:53An anchor tenant lined up of course, it's a zuki string school and other tenants have come and gone over the years

3:11:59Um, do you have any I you know and that sort of

3:12:04Created a really stable foundation for them to continue from an operating perspective and you know, they've they've been able to get grants

3:12:12Like you've said they just a couple years ago. They got over a hundred thousand for the HVAC system

3:12:17from the federal government

3:12:20Can you just sort of

3:12:24Just do you have any idea that you would be able to like achieve that like with anchor tenants and

3:12:32That type of long term to make a long term success

3:12:35Absolutely

3:12:36I'm looking through the appendix, but at 47 pages I can't put my finger on it

3:12:40But what I do know is that there are numerous income streams from operations. There are numerous income streams from identified arts

3:12:49Grants, there are numerous

3:12:52Income streams available that we've identified that we could go after in terms of intergovernmental work

3:12:58Has any of that been done? Do we have any of that in the bag? No

3:13:01Nobody is showing up today or tomorrow

3:13:04With a bag of money to take this off your hands this proposal that was this request for

3:13:10For expression of interest that was a similarity with both of those proposals

3:13:14Is that both of them said hey, we'll show up and we'll we'll do our part

3:13:18But there is a partnership that needs to take place because right now

3:13:22The market sounding study

3:13:25Found out four years ago. It's not financially viable

3:13:28For anyone to do it on their own

3:13:31But I believe that there are numerous avenues and a phased approach that would allow us to realize

3:13:38The the use of the building the adaptive reuse an aspect of this vision. Will we get to the top right away?

3:13:45No, but we can certainly move towards it. I believe

3:13:48So I what I did ask about was anchor tenants. Do you have any idea who might be

3:13:52You don't have to name. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. And to be clear we haven't had that conversation with people yet

3:13:58But it speaks

3:14:00We've had peripheral conversations about it. So a lot of it revolves around access to facilities that people don't have

3:14:07At their disposal. So the two easy ones that I use to explain are things like pottery or or printmaking, but it could also be

3:14:16a wood shop

3:14:18Any number any number of things now

3:14:21One of the clear opportunities because one of the challenges to make these

3:14:27Accessible financially to people is rent

3:14:29Well under this scenario under this scenario, we're we're looking at

3:14:37At this facility not with a sliding scale of rent that gives us the ability to get started and get going before

3:14:44You know and then we start making a lot of money. Well, then we're paying a lot of rent

3:14:48But at that point we're making lots of money

3:14:50So the challenge the opportunity in many cases is for perhaps existing

3:14:56resources to transfer in as

3:14:59either tenants or

3:15:01Somehow wrapped into the environment. That's really that first year be at the gulf tool library or diode or a print shop

3:15:09Or a glass shop or whatever right? So part of it is just understanding what's possible

3:15:13Then what's feasible and then what's best?

3:15:19Or work please and then goer

3:15:21Thank you, America three through you to mr. Salesbury

3:15:25um

3:15:26We got quite a bit of correspondence on this people clearly are excited

3:15:30But you can see through the correspondence that there's some confusion about what today's conversation is about because people are like

3:15:37Fund the visual arts center and make sure it's got a kiln and all this stuff

3:15:42So the decision today that you're asking us

3:15:46To consider is don't sell the drill hall. Is that correct?

3:15:51No, the decision today is to work with us right don't sell it and give us some time and work with us

3:15:58Right to be clear our proposal included an option to purchase

3:16:04But like every other organization that's looked at this we would need to look at that through the lens of viability

3:16:10So there's an interest a willingness

3:16:13We believe that it is best as a shared facility where it maintains ownership with the city

3:16:19Um, but it could go either way. So when you mentioned mentioned though, you know about about sale

3:16:24It's all it's always been on the table because that was part of the expression of interest and we've responded to that

3:16:30With with an alternative proposal in that front

3:16:34It is not what we built like a lot of the work that we would do is doesn't change

3:16:39But I think it really does require a different look at the financial modeling and the liability and the and the

3:16:46And the risk I think as I say

3:16:48I don't think anyone's going to show up with a bag of money

3:16:51Right. So three you may got three just just so it's clear for the public

3:16:55The staff report says

3:16:57We should sell it right and the delegation say are saying this could be a real gem and it's got lots of potential

3:17:05So don't sell it and work with us and we'll see where we end up in

3:17:10Phase one at the end of phase one. Is that fair?

3:17:13That is fair. Yeah, okay

3:17:16Through you merga three. I'm just

3:17:19In that same vein. Is it fair to say the model's not really fleshed out?

3:17:23I heard our first delegates say it's like a community center for the arts. It's open to everybody and I heard you say

3:17:31We're talking about workspace

3:17:33So so that also could shift over the period of time, right?

3:17:37I would say that the model the general model has been fleshed out. We have

3:17:43Got into a point where we believe just from an analysis of square footage

3:17:48Can we support the organization based on making use of this facility in ways that are similar to shared workspaces and

3:17:58Studio spaces and and what have you so that that has been however

3:18:03it hasn't been

3:18:06Hmm

3:18:07It hasn't incorporated the second phase which is to see actually who's interested in joining in because that'll change the game

3:18:16um, but it it's also

3:18:18um

3:18:20But but I think that the business the model is solid actually we wouldn't be here if we didn't believe that it was a viable project

3:18:28How exactly that's the process that the first phase process that needs to go through

3:18:33Okay, and so actually just to come back to what you just said in terms of we haven't figured out who will be

3:18:39Tenants or what the needs will be

3:18:41Essentially, so three you may got three to mr. Salisbury

3:18:44Do you anticipate in this first phase that there will be broader consultation with people in the arts community?

3:18:48So that everybody comes with some sort of common understanding of what

3:18:52What this thing will be 100 one of the challenges we ran into is what we started calling dream fatigue

3:18:58So we'd go out to people and say hey, we want to talk to you about this

3:19:01And they go like the the fact that we have members from the platform here

3:19:04I think speaks to just their willingness to to dream because there's a lot of fatigue in this community about trying to get

3:19:11Something like this off the ground

3:19:13Once we actually have something to work with

3:19:16That's a game changer now people who are thinking. Yeah, I see an opportunity here

3:19:21That's when they're going to come out and that's the process that we have to go out proactively to make sure that

3:19:27We're on we're on point with with the overall mix of activities

3:19:33And income streams that will support the the building to be clear though

3:19:37There has never been conversation about making the city whole

3:19:42For renovations. It is not considered in our plan in either one

3:19:47We have always looked at this as a shared responsibility that says, you know what?

3:19:52We don't even have a building that we can get in and renovate yet

3:19:55It has to at least come to some you know, ideally come to this level so that we can come to and do the inside

3:20:01But what we've said all along is let us help you do that because there's sources of income out there available

3:20:08for that purpose

3:20:10So a lot of unknowns but a lot of of well thought out

3:20:15Aspects to give us faith in a potential outcome

3:20:19Okay, thanks

3:20:22Councillor Gower had his question asked so councillor Busuttil

3:20:27Is I believe it

3:20:29Thank you and through the mayor. Thank you for the delegation yours and everyone else's so

3:20:35At a very young age I was integrally involved in the youth music center and the fundraising part of that as well

3:20:42And so I can speak very clearly that

3:20:45The anchor tenant the Suzuki string school

3:20:48Parents contributed to a building fund. So when they entered into the

3:20:53Conversation with the city sitting at the table. They had cash in hand. So there was a bag of money there

3:20:59And also some negotiating around the sea cadets and the boat house and so on

3:21:04My question because I'm still not very clear

3:21:07Is in your first phase that exploratory

3:21:11I mean that one year the amount of time

3:21:13I I need to know that that process results in a commitment

3:21:18With anchor tenants. There's a commitment at the end of the process

3:21:23There may not be a bag of money

3:21:26But the risk is on the city that at the end of this there needs to be I need to hear

3:21:32That the intent there isn't yeah, I need some space the intent there is is very specific on sign up here

3:21:40Have like we need commitments there not and I understand about this space because I think I still have those reports in my filing

3:21:48Canada in the basement

3:21:50The need is there. It's about that. How do we?

3:21:53Operationalize that how do we make it sustainable and it is money in a bag agreed?

3:21:59We're approaching this entrepreneur early if we don't have it in the bag. It doesn't happen

3:22:03Right, that is where I say at the end of the phase one

3:22:05There's a period to reassess whether or not this was just good intention or whether or not this found traction

3:22:11And has a lot of the questions answered. So

3:22:14Absolutely, we need that as well

3:22:17We don't we haven't asked for anyone that yet because it hasn't been a project for us to commit to

3:22:22But that isn't exactly what we're looking at and I'll mention there was a question about paid

3:22:28Studio space as well. So this is 17,000 square feet and a lot of the focus is on shared workspace

3:22:35community workspace

3:22:37And shared facilities, but one cannot

3:22:41Overlook the fact that there is also the promise of what might be

3:22:45the very best potential studio spaces in the city and

3:22:50having a combination of rental facilities be it a

3:22:56kiln or be it a pottery or be it a selection of of

3:23:01Studio spaces that are that are rented out. There's there's as I say, there's about a dozen different income streams that we've identified

3:23:09And we'd be working on all of that and have that

3:23:12At the end of phase one in order to give us

3:23:16confidence to move forward

3:23:17Because it's not all answered, you know, there's a good deal of this. I don't have answers for this is a vision. This is a

3:23:24Uh

3:23:26Something that is plausible and has been well thought out by people smarter than me

3:23:32That gives me enough faith

3:23:35To move forward if you're not scared looking at this, you're not looking at this. This is a big overwhelming job

3:23:42It's going to require some creativity

3:23:44likely some phases and perhaps some deep pockets

3:23:47So I sure hope those pockets are listening to this recording now

3:23:51Thank you. My final question. Um, and I think councillor work was getting at what I was trying to get

3:23:56How much time do you need and how do these?

3:24:00Resolutions that are before us for consideration. How do we need to modify them to get to that phase one?

3:24:07What are you thinking? Is it one year? Is it 18 months? What are what is your ask?

3:24:11We anticipated phase one being one calendar year

3:24:15Having said that

3:24:17that was through an entrepreneurial lens

3:24:20And the process which we expected to take a few months to date has taken a year. And so we did not necessarily

3:24:28anticipate

3:24:30A slower process than then sort of an entrepreneurial approach if we are given

3:24:36The flexibility and empowerment and collaboration a year is more than enough time again

3:24:43This isn't this is a project we want to be spend 10 years thinking about we want to get it in the ground and make it happen

3:24:48And so we either need to find out it's going to work or not and we should be able to do that in a year

3:24:53Thank you. That's all. Thank you

3:24:56Thank you. Is there anyone else before I just ask some final questions?

3:25:00No, okay. Thank you

3:25:03Mike, thanks so much for for coming. So I just want to um

3:25:0895 of all my questions have been asked. So thank you to my colleagues

3:25:11But there's just one that maybe needs a little bit more clarity for me and that is the

3:25:16Um trying to understand the proposal and I have read everything but I just want to kind of get it on record here

3:25:22The proposal from the group

3:25:24Is I'm just concerned in my view that it's more for like a closed membership style

3:25:31where

3:25:35If we were to keep the building it's it's it's public use and it's a building that we want to see revitalized

3:25:42Like where is your intention on having some public

3:25:48Some public accessibility not in the aod a way but public accessibility public

3:25:55Use of it so that it is a very

3:25:59It's an active building. Did you do an answer? I mean like like when when you are on council and you'd remember this

3:26:05We had you know, we're always talking about activating the the storefront, right? Like we want to

3:26:10Have

3:26:11You know buildings downtown we want to have active

3:26:14uses on the main floors

3:26:17And my my fear is is where I'm hearing and this is why I want the clarity is that

3:26:22This isn't going to be sort of a non active

3:26:26space for the public to also see

3:26:30And be able to use so can you can you just speak to that for me? Absolutely to be 100 clear

3:26:37It has always been our vision to be able to bring that public element in and have accessibility

3:26:43A significant aspect of what we're offering. I'll give you an example

3:26:47I I've been a member of diode community workshop for a while pay a monthly fee have access

3:26:53To all kinds of equipment and skills and opportunities now if somebody comes and says yeah, I'd love to be a member

3:26:59But I can't afford it. They have a way to deal with that, you know, so even within a membership structure

3:27:04So let's say printmaking is an example where there's equipment and it's a little bit more of a niche

3:27:10That might be ideal for you know

3:27:13The the print shop is a membership based thing doesn't mean you can't have

3:27:17opportunities and accessibility or do public classes or any number of outreach things this success of this

3:27:25Initiative I think I think Lee's answer to first. We're not a special interest group. We see the value

3:27:32In bringing the community together the value is in collaboration. What we end up doing there

3:27:38Well, that could be any number of things. Okay

3:27:41and then so then I guess I

3:27:42It's a good segue. I think and it's my last question is just uh

3:27:47I think it's maybe natural for all of us to sort of be like well if I was in that building

3:27:51This is what I would do, you know, so we're all throwing our stuff into the mix

3:27:56So I just really want to understand is there is there

3:27:59um

3:28:01some dedication

3:28:02to the tourism aspect of what the building could be for our community to and so

3:28:09like have you thought about?

3:28:11um

3:28:12How it can be an active draw

3:28:15Uh or an active partner with the dgba on events or closing of streets and yeah, like I just feel like um

3:28:25again, I just want it to be

3:28:28If it goes this way, I would like it to be somewhere where it's

3:28:32Uh, well, it's currently an underperforming asset. You've heard me say this trying to turn it into a performing asset

3:28:38But if you're forming public asset too, right? So that there's that that use of of tourism opportunity

3:28:45So so from a tourist perspective, we see that as an income stream, you know, so whether that is

3:28:51Uh people coming to attend events people coming to purchase art people coming to take classes

3:28:57one of the delegates spoke about traveling all kinds of uh, a great distance to to take classes at uh,

3:29:04at another facility, so that's

3:29:06tourism is a big deal one of the things that I think is

3:29:11Ties into that all of this is is interrelated

3:29:14But when you take the train in from Toronto, so a lot of tourism if it's Toronto based and takes the train they come in by train

3:29:22And you step off the platform the very first building that you see

3:29:26Is a yellow building with lots of yellow vinyl band-aids on it and right so right now it reflects poorly on us

3:29:32Maybe you just let's look at out the window and go let's just keep going to Kitchener

3:29:37One of the things that we see though on that frontage

3:29:40Is the ability to have windows into I imagine again keeping in mind a lot of this is is not been thought through but

3:29:49vision into in a lot of public facing

3:29:52Aspects so classrooms and shared spaces so when you're coming off the train you're looking right in on that

3:30:00So yeah tourism ranks very high

3:30:03In not just because it's generally good for what we're trying to do, but it's an income stream

3:30:09Thank you. I appreciate you answering both of those questions for me. So

3:30:12thank you again to you and all the delegates really appreciate it and uh

3:30:17We'll just move into the next phase of you know how this works

3:30:20of discussing and debating it

3:30:23debating it for the next little while

3:30:25but there is going to be a

3:30:27One phase before we get into that and that's called the dinner break phase

3:30:33And so I think it's good for all of us. We've been sitting here since well some of us since 130

3:30:38And so I'm going to have a half an hour break

3:30:41That means we'll come back here at six o'clock

3:30:44And that gives all of you an opportunity if you if you want to go as well and come back

3:30:49Or you can go and watch it online or whatever you want to do

3:30:52But our staff and ourselves as counsel can just get the the blood flowing a bit get some food into us and

3:30:57And get us ready for the discussion and debate when we come back

3:31:01So I'll just take that break until uh

3:31:04Six o'clock and we'll see everyone back here at that time. So thank you very much

3:59:41This is your 32nd warning everybody

4:00:54Okay, I'd like to I'd like to call the meeting to order please

4:01:00And I I do need to see some other screens

4:01:04Other cameras turn on because I need to beautiful. Thank you very much

4:01:09Now we have quorum

4:01:12Okay

4:01:14Let's move

4:01:16Through our discussion debate decision as a committee. Let's do it

4:01:21Who's going to table?

4:01:24The staff recommendation for me

4:01:26Would someone be willing to do that?

4:01:29Councillor Goller will do that for us

4:01:32Councillor Gibson

4:01:34Will second it

4:01:38Is there anything on that motion before I call the vote Councillor Goller and Gibson

4:01:45Thank you and through your worship to staff

4:01:48Thank you for putting together this report

4:01:50And for doing all this this night work

4:01:52Could you please help me understand

4:01:55Part of the report says that when there was the expression of interest for community use there was no

4:02:00viable candidates because of they were all asking for financial support

4:02:04However, I think it's in the same paragraph

4:02:07It says that there was interest from the private sector to

4:02:11To purchase the property. So could you help me understand what that interest was for?

4:02:18Through the mayor to you Councillor Goller

4:02:21I believe you're referring to the wording where we're talking about the various processes that the

4:02:25City went through so

4:02:28I would characterize it as a

4:02:32We're going through a series of steps to

4:02:34Identify a use like the direction is to reanimate the space and and find a use for the for the building

4:02:39The first process was a market sounding, you know business sector environment

4:02:44That concluded

4:02:45Then we initiated a broader

4:02:47Evaluation process to identify use and and what the staff what the report before

4:02:53Council is is is is about concluding that process and what we're recommending is initiate a third process

4:02:58Based on budgetary constraints, which would be a very broad

4:03:02Market listing okay, so but

4:03:08What I kept hearing from

4:03:10The constituents when they wrote to me they said why are we trying to sell it if we've already said is there an interest of this?

4:03:17And we've said no one's interested in this place. So when we look to potentially sell it

4:03:23Would it be for like retail commercial space?

4:03:26And and so that there was no interest in a community use right, but when we talk about selling it then it would be for

4:03:34Like something that is decidedly not community use right?

4:03:40Through the mayor to Councillor Goller it could be for any use

4:03:43So it would be a it would be a market listing. It could be any entity of any public sector private sector business not per profit

4:03:51The point before us it could be any any number of uses this the zoning and the heritage

4:03:56Designations would continue to apply and that would carry over to to a purchaser. They would still have to comply with

4:04:03Use regulations that are in place on the site

4:04:07Okay, okay, so effectively if we were to vote in favor of the staff recommendation

4:04:12The only thing we would be closing the door on would be for this to be

4:04:17a community use

4:04:19Okay, so this is this is who i'm trying to get clarity because in the report

4:04:23It listed that there was interest, but the same time through the sounding there was no interest

4:04:30So so what was their interest for?

4:04:34Through the mayor to Councillor Goller. So the market sounding study was completed in 2021 the market has changed

4:04:39um

4:04:40The a market listing would not preclude

4:04:42Or assume any use it would be open to to all commerce that that would be interested in submitting an offer on the site

4:04:48um

4:04:49and and yeah, the market sounding reflects the market as we heard it in 2021 with a with a audience of

4:04:56developers and builders and

4:04:59A listing would be open to any entity that would be interested

4:05:03Yes, okay, and if we wanted to maintain this as a building that was for community use

4:05:12Could we stipulate that as part of the sale?

4:05:17Or it has have we closed the door to community use that's what i'm trying to understand

4:05:26perhaps

4:05:28Perhaps

4:05:30You could just relay like the first slide that had the

4:05:36You you you you mentioned in the in the presentation that it could be up for sale for anybody

4:05:41I think it was luke so

4:05:43Can you just describe that all over again?

4:05:45Through the mayor to Councillor Goller, um, sure so to answer the question it would not

4:05:50preclude a community use, um

4:05:52I don't have the slide in front of me. Maybe if I can ask clerks if they can they can pull it up

4:05:58um

4:06:00I'm gathering what you're asking is is how do we get to a community use and and

4:06:04How we would get to a community use is that a community?

4:06:07user or that that you know an entity representing that body or an organization would have to submit an offer in

4:06:13If we were to market it and and and list it as a site for sale

4:06:21Okay, and if you could clarify I believe that it was in the report

4:06:26The the annual carrying cost for this building what was it and something in the 160,000 range

4:06:33so if we were to

4:06:36Not approve this and then if I bought against this and we explore another option

4:06:41What is the annual carrying cost for us to explore other options?

4:06:49Through the metacounselor galler the the annual carrying cost for the building um is about 125 000 dollars

4:06:55Okay, okay, so if say we in two years time we said yes, please put it on the market. We will have spent

4:07:03100 to 240 000 thereabouts

4:07:08The mayor to councillor Goller at least that amount correct. Okay. Thank you. So that's that's the cost

4:07:14Thank you on three or worship. I have one one final question

4:07:17many of the delegates asked

4:07:20You know they indicated that

4:07:22They could use it sooner and and there was you know the word shoe string budget thrown around a couple times

4:07:28But in the report

4:07:30You mentioned that it's a five million dollar to get at least ready. So I just wanted to hear

4:07:36Would there be any opportunity to get it

4:07:39usable

4:07:40Maybe not least ready, but usable for some you uh community uses

4:07:45Before we put another five million dollars into it

4:07:50Through the mayor to councillor Goller the answers in our opinion. No the building

4:07:56Would need to meet occupancy standards, which would require a significant significant investment from its current state

4:08:03Okay, okay. Okay. Thank you for that and just so that i'm clear that would mean that if we were to explore

4:08:09Working with a community group to do this they would have to

4:08:13fund raise

4:08:14Apply for grants to collect about five million dollars before it could be open for their purposes. Is that correct?

4:08:25Through the mayor to councillor Goller. That's correct. Thank you very much. Thank you worship

4:08:30Great and I I do uh know that alt wants to go but I did I did quickly see uh the seconder here

4:08:38Is it and by the way if anyone wants to do comments at the same time it's also

4:08:43Applicable, uh, so go ahead councillor gibson. Then it goes to alt please. Thank you through you mayor guthrie

4:08:50I guess my question is to step I do have a couple but i'll start with an obvious one

4:08:55um

4:08:56highest best used is often uh sort of fluttered around when it comes to

4:09:00underutilized assets

4:09:02By not doing a open market bid or market sounding moving forward on this site

4:09:08Are we limiting the competition for the highest best use for this site?

4:09:25through the mayor um

4:09:28The interesting part about this site is that we do have some restrictions with metro links

4:09:33So determining what the highest and best use is um, we know for example, we can't have residential there

4:09:39So we'd have to we have zoning in place that

4:09:44Outline some of the uses that are permitted there

4:09:46Uh, we don't have an appraisal done on the property

4:09:50but obviously going out to market would kind of determine what the

4:09:55The market rate is for that property based on the the uses that are allowed through the zoning as well as the

4:10:02Metro links restriction due to its proximity to the railway

4:10:06That's great. So thanks. That's the answer I wanted to just explore is that you know council can

4:10:12Sort of pigeonhole this project into dealing with one potential use or one potential user

4:10:17Or we could go to a market sounding and look at the broader community

4:10:21For it's and then determine what the highest best use is

4:10:25So, I mean that that's to me. I'm a little concerned with

4:10:29Determining a committee and then ultimately a council that we only want to work with one person here as a council or exploring only with one person

4:10:35Can I ask about um the city's?

4:10:38asset disposition policy or

4:10:41procurement policy

4:10:44In terms of the validity of of such emotion could could we simply I know it's been done in the past

4:10:49But I've never explored it through this lens

4:10:52Are we able to disposition public assets in a fashion that we do not engage in a broader

4:10:57Sort of public engagement or a broader public sector or even a broader commercial sector business

4:11:04approach

4:11:06Rather sort of bypassing that process and simply just awarding the opportunity for one group to work with

4:11:11Yeah, I understand it's an unsolicited proposal, but or it was a solicited proposal, but are we short cutting that process?

4:11:23through the mayor to

4:11:24councillor gibson, so the city has a

4:11:27disposition of of real estate assets policy in place

4:11:31So if directed what staff would do is would follow that process to disposition this asset and that includes a

4:11:39Basically, there's there's various options available to staff through that policy

4:11:43But it would basically be a public offering and there's various ways that we can do that, but it would be um

4:11:50It would be subject to

4:11:52It would be effectively a market listing

4:11:54Right, and that's that's the recommendation that staff have given us

4:11:57But we know of a potential motion coming forward that would direct staff to negotiate or work with just one party

4:12:04So how does that approach align with our disposition policy?

4:12:09Does it align with our disposition policy or must we go through a public process of offering?

4:12:14Yeah, I'm just wondering uh, sorry councillor gibson for jumping in just wondering if that

4:12:22If that's a little bit out of order in questioning for the motion that's actually on the floor like right now the motion on the floor is to sell

4:12:30so

4:12:31You know council can either vote that up or vote that down

4:12:35And then we can move to anything else that would be then

4:12:39In an arena a discussion of not

4:12:42Selling okay, I'll pose a question a different way then sure go ahead

4:12:47If we were to if because the motion has already been hinted at

4:12:51Mayor Guthrie, so if we were to reject the staff's approach

4:12:57Um, could we direct them to work with a single user given the disposition policy that we have?

4:13:09Through the mayor to councillor gibson

4:13:11Through the request for expression of the request for expression of interest

4:13:15process was a public process

4:13:20So so I guess

4:13:22Without the current next market sounding

4:13:25You you felt you feel like it would be a justifiable decision to only work with one group given that to yours is

4:13:32I guess almost

4:13:37Sure go ahead councillor costin

4:13:41It was my sorry my phone just went off it was my understanding that there was a sounding study

4:13:46conducted

4:13:50I believe that councillor gibson has

4:13:52I was just eluding that it was four years ago. No, no, no

4:13:56No, I don't need three people talking over me, please

4:13:59I believe councillor gibson acknowledged that but I think he's asking for

4:14:04In in in the context of a more up-to-date one because the last one that was done was a few years ago

4:14:09I believe that's where he was going so

4:14:12Um

4:14:12Councillor gibson now I may have misunderstood you but uh, I'm going to allow councillor gibson just to continue

4:14:18With his line of questioning. Okay. Okay. Thank you

4:14:21Yeah, thank you. I acknowledge that it was four years ago, but staff have also acknowledged that they'd like to do it again

4:14:25So I'm just trying to support their their recommendation to us

4:14:29Um, the last comment I'll make

4:14:31And maybe it's a question to staff is I don't have a long memory, but I do have a memory that dates back to november last year

4:14:38Or this council deferred over

4:14:40$693 million in capital projects

4:14:43I sat and watched while the downtown revitalization program was called back

4:14:48I sat and watched while york road with claud back

4:14:51Um, and dozens of other projects were claud back all in the recommendation to avoid a 10 plus

4:14:57Tax increase moving forward. We have a 4 back drop mandate on our budget this year

4:15:04Is staff

4:15:06Is the staff recommendation

4:15:09Aligning with the direction that council has given them to date

4:15:14that's encapsulating capital deferrals

4:15:16And um, and ultimately the the 4% mandate that the mayor has put on the budget this year

4:15:22Is that a lot is the staff aligned with that message through this recommendation?

4:15:28Through the through the mayor to council gibson, so

4:15:32Again as we were looking through and as you heard from the delegates

4:15:36Any path forward does require a partnership from the city i.e. Some money from the city

4:15:42So as we've been we went through that process with you last year through budget

4:15:47And as you mentioned, we are looking at a difficult budget coming up in regards to

4:15:52The mayoral directions

4:15:55And so yes, we are looking at this saying we we don't have any money to offer

4:16:01So that's why we landed on the recommendation that we did

4:16:04Thank you

4:16:05So i'll just in closing comments to use up my time

4:16:08A quote our our deputy c.a.o from last budget many infrastructure renewal and facility projects were

4:16:14Descoped and deferred this means extending asset replacement timelines beyond their useful life

4:16:19This was a deputy c.a.o. Turboli

4:16:22These deferrals and descoping have increased the city's risk of failure and as an asset's useful life is beyond

4:16:28Is extended beyond when replacement should have occurred

4:16:32Beyond capital deferrals in cancellation of project, which i've already detailed

4:16:37The number one recommendation from staff during the last budget process to limit tax increases to below 10%

4:16:44Was to pause service expansions?

4:16:48This is all i'm trying to do is bring some i'm just going to stay united with the message that we deliver to the public last

4:16:55budget

4:16:56I'm going to try and maintain my integrity when it comes to this coming budget

4:17:00That we have all said that we need to tighten our belts and we need to say no

4:17:04I'm going to support the staff's recommendation simply because I believe it's the most

4:17:09Integral recommendation that aligns with the steps and messages that this council has made over the last six months

4:17:16Okay, thank you so much. Uh councillor Allt please again just uh questions and or comments only to the recommendation

4:17:22That's on the floor, which is the staff recommendation, please

4:17:25Thank you. I think that we've had the the staff clarify things. So i'm just going to go to comments

4:17:30Um, I am not in favor of the staff recommendations. I believe that this proposal has practicality

4:17:37I've had some serious questions about it

4:17:40Uh, the problem with the staff recommendations is they leave us with nothing

4:17:44Just last week we addressed the issue of downtown redevelopment and this strikes me as being quite compatible with infrastructure redevelopment downtown

4:17:53These uh motions don't enhance that in my opinion. In fact, they threaten the heritage building

4:18:00Um, I don't see how giving up as the motions say we're giving

4:18:05It's worth to be declared surplus is going to lead the money being injected into saving a heritage site

4:18:11This is important to me because this was at one point a drill hall that had some history behind it

4:18:17And i'm seeing this as something where swords can basically be beaten into plowshares through artists and I think that that should not matter

4:18:25Um, similarly, I think that we we need to recognize that there are many people that are putting passion into this and we should give them the time

4:18:33To actually come together with a creative business proposal that doesn't seem to be out there

4:18:39We've heard that we have not had any offers

4:18:42This group is attempting to be viable and like I said, there's a lot of gaps

4:18:47I want to see them filled in if in a certain amount of time they don't come back

4:18:51Then I think that we just address it. But if we get rid of it now

4:18:55There is no evidence that this building will be preserved and we will look once again

4:19:01Like we are demolishing not just by neglect

4:19:05But because we don't have the money

4:19:07To save a building

4:19:10Okay, thank you. I think councillor work you had your hand up on this motion and then karan, please

4:19:15Um, thanks margothry. So I have a couple of questions

4:19:19um

4:19:20Given that the building is now stabilized

4:19:23and um

4:19:25There's no sort of additional investments for capital or operating other than

4:19:30basic heat and light just to

4:19:32Keep it from deteriorating

4:19:35What would be the problem with giving?

4:19:37um

4:19:38The golf center for visual arts a year to refine their plan or to come up with funds

4:19:43So there was a public

4:19:46Uh process to see who might be interested in the building

4:19:48And they've come with a proposal that that uh may need to be refined

4:19:54so

4:19:55So why not retain the asset for a period of time to see if it can be viable

4:20:06So three mr. Mayor the councillor, you know, I think that's a reasonable question

4:20:11But your expectations as a council is so important to this

4:20:14So whatever you vote on and however you get there

4:20:17This expression of interest went out with

4:20:20We don't have money for this

4:20:22This particular proponent came back with well, we need your money

4:20:27So as the expectation no money or we need money

4:20:30So I think you've got to be clear on any negotiations over this year or whatever it is

4:20:36That this group might need

4:20:38Because then that will help staff or you'll just be exactly in this spot one year from now because the expectations are unclear

4:20:46and I I think that will be

4:20:48If this motion doesn't pass

4:20:51That then will need to be part of what you give us in terms of direction setting so that

4:20:56And it could be in camera. I suppose because it might just be

4:21:00You need to set expectations around negotiations for a contract

4:21:04And I think our clerk would be all right with that as I look at him

4:21:08But help us with expectations or staff will just be exactly where we are today

4:21:13And so there might be some work that they have to do that group if that's where you want to head

4:21:18But super clear should be what's your expectation for this build-in

4:21:22Get out of it

4:21:24Give them the keys today and say go and fundraise or say go and fundraise and come back if you've got I think

4:21:30Mr. Salzerbury said a bag of money

4:21:34So if your expectation is they return with that bag of money then that should be clear for them

4:21:39So that that's clear to the community as well what the expectations are so I just I don't want to just harp on the money side of the list

4:21:45There's so much more other important things

4:21:48But I think ultimately that's where we've gotten to as staff

4:21:51As as miss home said we see what's coming in this budget

4:21:56And this is five million dollars and we're working to take 19 million dollars out

4:22:02So are we taking 24 million dollars out of other things?

4:22:06To accommodate this so that that clarity on the funding would be I think super helpful

4:22:12And it may need a little bit of time between now and council

4:22:14So I want to say that too. You might need some noodle in time on this

4:22:18Um, so that you're not

4:22:20Forced into doing something on the fly as well

4:22:23But and we're certainly able to work with you between now and uh council the next council meeting

4:22:28Okay, thank you. Um through you merga three just another

4:22:32Couple more questions. Um, can staff confirm just so it's crystal clear to the community this building cannot be used for housing

4:22:39And the county cannot use it for social services of any kind. Is that correct?

4:22:48Through the mayor to council rork, um just picking up what James had said previously ultimately, um

4:22:55The majority of this building is within the metro link setback period and subject to their approval and they have

4:23:01confirmed to us that that

4:23:03Sensitive uses such as residential use regardless of what type of housing it is it would not be permitted

4:23:08Okay, thanks. So I think that's important to know because people see this empty building and they say couldn't you just

4:23:14Right I was people so I think that is important, especially when we're looking at potential for alternate uses

4:23:19Um, I have a question about the staff report. So through you may go through the staff page four says

4:23:25Should the property not sell the city may need to look at options to increase the value of the property

4:23:33So so what does that mean?

4:23:35right

4:23:39Through the mayor one of those options would be looking at the zoning of the property and maybe expanding uses

4:23:45That are permitted there right now

4:23:48So that could be one of the things that we'd come back with as a solution

4:23:54Okay

4:23:55Okay, so it's not necessarily financial

4:23:59No, okay

4:24:01And my last question margoth rees for our clerks

4:24:04um

4:24:07Say the motion fail so say that the staff recommendation to sell the building fails today

4:24:13Because there's an interest in giving it a little bit more time a little bit explore more exploration

4:24:19Do we need

4:24:21Reconsideration at some point if if staff say we've looked at this it's been a year and this will not work

4:24:29Do we need a reconsideration then?

4:24:31um

4:24:34That's my question. Do we need reconsideration? What's the best way to move forward if somebody wanted to buy a little time?

4:24:42Through you mr. Mayor to councillor roark

4:24:45Reconsiderations are only required for resolutions of council. So that would only be motions which have been approved

4:24:49So defeated motions never need to be reconsidered can always be reintroduced at any time. Okay, so

4:24:55Just so it's clear through you margoth reey if uh members of council

4:25:00Wanted to explore the possibility with the constrict financial or time constraints, etc

4:25:05um

4:25:07Then then staff could do that and then come back in a year's time or 18 months and say we looked at it

4:25:13The recommendation is still to sell

4:25:16That's correct. Okay

4:25:18um

4:25:19Thank you. My comment margoth reey

4:25:22um

4:25:24Is I think it's worth exploring we had an open public process to come forward

4:25:29With the recommendation we have expressed what the constraints are

4:25:34We see it in furgus and allora with their planar festival where the patios are packed

4:25:40We see it during art on the street here in gulf

4:25:43There could be some really interesting things in terms of the triangle of the gulf arts

4:25:49Center at the university with the you know outdoor art gallery with the museum and and potentially a center like this

4:25:56Um, and so I think there's an economic benefit and I think there's potentially a real intrinsic benefit in terms of multi-general

4:26:03rational intercultural

4:26:06Uh community engaged arts and we know that quality arts build community belonging. So I think it's worth

4:26:12Exploring so that we don't end up looking at a building and say shoot. We should have we should have kept that right had we known

4:26:19We could have so um

4:26:22I'd like to give it a little bit more time for the proposal to come back with some clarity

4:26:27and uh potentially sources of funding alternate sources of funding

4:26:34Okay, thank you so much. Um, I have karan next and then i'm gonna go quickly back to galler and then busatel. Okay

4:26:42um council our work

4:26:45Captured my my thoughts we've had a market sounding study

4:26:49An rfp is another form of a markets sounding study

4:26:53And I want to make a fully decision. I want to know what all the possibilities are and and and we won't know that until we give this

4:27:00rfp an opportunity to

4:27:03To create that momentum

4:27:05So I hope this motion fails and if it does I have an alternate motion as you know that I'll be tabling

4:27:12To move forward

4:27:14Great, thank you so much. Uh councillor Goller then busatel

4:27:19Thank you through your worship. Uh my comments

4:27:23Um, I believe that we should retain this building for for public use that it should be a city-owned building

4:27:30So I will be respectfully uh voting against this motion

4:27:33Uh with the hope that we can retain it and and I do understand that there may be uses by the private sector

4:27:39But I want to make sure that we fully explore

4:27:41Uh potential uses even though we know that it's a cost of 120

4:27:46Thousand dollars per year to maintain this building

4:27:48Uh, I think it's an investment that we need to make at this point. Uh before we say goodbye to to a city facility

4:27:58Thank you councillor busatel and then I councillor kibson. Did you put your hand back up or was that

4:28:03Did I miss read that?

4:28:05It's it's okay. I just I heard rfp, but we're not doing an rfp. We're doing a we're doing an award. We're doing a

4:28:11We're doing a go and explore with a one party. We're not doing an rfp

4:28:14That was just a comment from missus from council crown that I didn't understand but I that's fine. I think it's a misspeak

4:28:21All right. All right. Thank you so much over to councillor busatel. Thank you

4:28:24So I'm not going to repeat. I think ditto to a lot that has been said, but I did want

4:28:30reiterate what my colleague said my

4:28:33expectation in response to the cao is I would like this to stay in the public realm

4:28:39And the other piece of the expectation is I'm looking for a bag of money quite honestly

4:28:44That you know, whatever the time that councillor roark talked about giving this group that they're coming back with an anchor tenant

4:28:51That they're coming back with a bag of money. I need to see the bag of money

4:28:56You know in principle in there that it is not a list of you know, maybe I'd like to do this

4:29:01It is something concrete that could be actionable

4:29:06Thank you. Is there anyone okay councillor billings, please

4:29:11Mr. Mayor the 125 000 for the general maintenance and the building security

4:29:17Is that uh in the 2025 2026?

4:29:22Is it captured within the multi or just for 2020 24?

4:29:32through the mayor to councillor billings what is in the budget is the utility and security cost for the building which is 60 000

4:29:42approximately

4:29:43So that's all that's currently in the budget

4:29:47That's correct. So if there's a decision to

4:29:52Um

4:29:53hold on to the building there's the

4:29:56Maintenance costs which are have not been currently budgeted that would need to be

4:30:03Okay, so then if we

4:30:06theoretically say no

4:30:09To trying to sell but we keep it so even bare bare minimum. So then we have to we have to increase the budget for 2025

4:30:18That's what you're saying. We have to

4:30:21That's correct. Okay. Thank you

4:30:28Thank you councillor downer has a question

4:30:32Through you mr. Mayor, I think this might go to uh deputy co

4:30:37clock bush

4:30:39I'm wondering like how is the city for

4:30:44renting space for arts

4:30:47or other programming even that arts takes up I just sort of

4:30:51Would the city at some point?

4:30:54See itself as a possible tenant like I'm thinking of

4:30:58When the shell they'll send her own opened up the city

4:31:01Rented the gym for programming and things like that. So I'm just wondering is is that a possibility?

4:31:08Do you think in the future do we have a shortage?

4:31:11ourselves

4:31:13um so through the mayor to council downer it's a it's a

4:31:17a

4:31:18Some what complicated question to answer because we do have a number of spaces that we the city have that are available to rent and one of the

4:31:26Challenges whenever we're asked about the cost of renting city space is that our rental rates are set through our council budget process

4:31:33So it's a little bit of a chicken and an egg

4:31:35Because we could make all of our rental spaces available for free

4:31:39But that would have an impact on our tax-based operating budget. And so um, we could for example

4:31:46I mean our arts and culture staff. I think are still here in the gallery

4:31:50We could make riverrun center and our museums spaces free to the community to rent and that might open up more inventory to the community based arts organizations

4:32:01But that then has an impact on our operating budget

4:32:04And we would need to come to you as at budget time to seek a further operating subsidy for those facilities

4:32:12However, that might still be a more economical way to provide greater access to rental space

4:32:18So that was a bit of a rambly way to say it's a bit more complicated

4:32:22We do have available space in our city facilities. We also have a new main branch library that's coming online

4:32:29That does have a multi-purpose space in it. We have city-owned spaces like the Guelph Youth Music Center

4:32:35And I know through the work that dana and tammy are doing with our culture plan

4:32:38That's part of what we're looking at is as well as what of our facility spaces. And so

4:32:45I would be

4:32:46I I think i'm reluctant to say that I could definitively say there is

4:32:51Need and demand now that we can articulate because I think some of the questions that have been raised is

4:32:57Are there other community spaces that would be negatively impacted?

4:33:01And we don't I don't have the answers to those questions right now

4:33:04So unless dana or tammy feels that they have anything else. No, they're shaking their head

4:33:08So I think the challenge we have is

4:33:11We're not feeling the demand. We have lots of spaces available

4:33:14What we do feel sometimes is the pressure on those spaces cost and that may be a conversation that we want to have

4:33:20Moving forward because we do charge rental rates for our facilities

4:33:24But we do want to be very conscious and hearing some of the feedback that we heard

4:33:30Both foreign against the need for this art space is

4:33:33Are there other more grassroots organizations who might be negatively impacted? And I think we just need to be sort of conscious of that

4:33:40Um

4:33:41Depending on the direction that you give us

4:33:45As we move forward if there is further feasibility work done

4:33:48I think from the arts and culture perspective

4:33:51We would want to be very clear that we're connected to that feasibility study so that we can answer that question for you

4:33:59So that we make sure we're giving you that data as to whether this is filling a void

4:34:05Or are there unintended consequences to some of the other grassroots organizations?

4:34:09Which I think is some of maybe some of the questions that you that you have heard from some in the community that we aren't able to answer tonight

4:34:16Because we haven't asked those questions

4:34:20Okay, I oh sorry. I count sir. Cron. Did you want to circle back for a second?

4:34:24Yeah, I just need two points of clarification. First of all, I heard there's nothing in our budget moving forward

4:34:29This is a corporate. This is a corporate property our corporate property

4:34:35We've never given direction to corporate property to sell this site

4:34:39So I'm a little confused about why maintenance is and utilities are not in our base budget

4:34:47Through the mayor to councillor Caron

4:34:50We do have 60 000 in our budget for utilities and for security

4:34:56What we do not have in the budget is for maintenance

4:35:01capital investment into

4:35:03Maintaining the this building

4:35:08What what maintenance needs to happen in the next year?

4:35:12Other than utilities and security

4:35:16Sorry, I'm just me. I just can't clarity on what what?

4:35:19No, great question. So

4:35:21so the maintenance requirements are

4:35:24not necessarily

4:35:27accrued every year, but for example if we think about

4:35:30uh building envelope maintenance or a roof repair

4:35:34We'll need need funds in two to three years

4:35:37For example for a roof replacement. And so we do need to set aside capital funding

4:35:44In advance to have the money to pay for that when it comes due

4:35:49Okay, so

4:35:51The 125 includes putting into a capital fund for future potential

4:36:00I can take that offline. I don't want to use up my time

4:36:02My second question is I've heard dco clack bush say that we

4:36:06Have not identified whether or not we have a deficit deficit in arts space and the culture plan

4:36:13Says we do

4:36:15And so I just want to clarify that as well because the culture plan actually identifies the drill how it call us a potential

4:36:21cultural community space

4:36:23And so, you know, the the the library meeting room is a meeting room. It's bookable space. Yes, but it's not

4:36:31Uh workshop space. You can't bring a kiln in or bring

4:36:34Uh, uh equipment and it's not it's not the same type of usable space. So the culture plan says we

4:36:41We have a deficit of art space of studio and creative creative space. So I just want to clarify

4:36:49The answer to that question

4:36:53Sure through the mayor to councillor chron

4:36:55I think maybe if I can clarify that I was simply trying to state that we have not done any detailed needs assessment of that

4:37:02and so

4:37:04I'm just not in a position to be able to definitively answer with data

4:37:07Exactly some of what um delegates were relaying to you. And so if this was to move forward, we would simply

4:37:15Suggest that we be involved in that process so that we can validate that data

4:37:18Similar to what we did in advance of for example, the south end community center where we actually did that data analysis of

4:37:24The specific needs assessment of what specific spaces

4:37:29Were were required

4:37:31Because we don't necessarily to date have a role in provision of some of those types of spaces

4:37:36And so I just can't speak with any authority on what that data says specifically

4:37:41And so I just wanted to be clear that I can't answer the question specifically at this point

4:37:46If this were to move forward and you were looking to us to be able to reliably

4:37:51Assist with that decision making moving forward. We would need to be able to get back to you on that

4:37:56Okay, and I appreciate that context. I know that the arts council has done a needs analysis and we have

4:38:02Used data from other organizations to feed into our cultural plan. But again, I can follow up

4:38:08after this motion

4:38:11Councillor all I think I'm circling back to you as well

4:38:15I'd like to call the vote on this everyone if that's okay, but go ahead council roll. You're okay. Okay. I'm not gonna pass. Thank you

4:38:21Okay

4:38:23I'm gonna call the vote then all those in favor of the staff recommendation. I'm sorry those against

4:38:30the staff recommendation

4:38:32Please raise your hand

4:38:37Sorry, my hand is raised. I don't have video

4:38:40Or your voice raise your voice. So clausen is against so it looks like it's

4:38:46It's the easiest easier way to do this is it's two

4:38:50That are four so billings and gipson

4:38:53Okay

4:38:55Thank you councillor Caron. Would you

4:38:58Please look to I know that you've looked to

4:39:02Table something different. I'll turn it over to you

4:39:05Oh, sure. Thank you. Um, thank you, mr. Mayor

4:39:09Uh, I have three clauses

4:39:11And I I sent them to the clerk earlier

4:39:14So I don't know if those will go up on screen

4:39:16But the first one is that council direct staff to commence negotiations for an agreement with the dwell center for visual art

4:39:23For the lease of 72 core far far providing a time limited window ending in june of 2025 for them to secure

4:39:30Commitments for their acquired resources to convert the facility into a functioning arts center

4:39:35I think we do have to recognize that no additional financial commitment from the city is currently approved

4:39:41That's a council decision that the staff will work with gcb to explore alternative funding opportunities

4:39:47Uh, that the city of guelph continue to own the drill hall building and continue to be responsible to fundamentally maintain the current

4:39:52state structural elements and primary systems and then the estimate that our staff gave us was 125 000 annual

4:39:59Annually and that is subject to the outcome of any future agreements and that staff report back by the end of q1 in 2025 on the

4:40:06progress of this

4:40:07this work, um, that is moved by myself and um seconded by councillor Klassen

4:40:13And if I could give a little bit of preamble if I still have the floor

4:40:18Is now going yes go yes go right ahead. Um, you still have a bit of time. Yep. Go ahead. We don't have to fund the arts and culture

4:40:24We don't have to have a museum. We don't need a pottery center

4:40:27We don't we don't have to fund a river run center or a music center

4:40:31Or sports fields or the evergreen speeds uh evergreen senior centers

4:40:36We build them and we fund them and we maintain them and we get into agreements and partnerships and community benefit agreements

4:40:45because they add

4:40:46benefit to our community

4:40:49So the the gap in the cultural community the gap in the arts in particular has been

4:40:55identified in our own culture plan

4:40:58And it has actually been two decades almost two decades since the community arts collective came together and called themselves the platform to advocate for community

4:41:06space for the visual arts

4:41:08And shortly after that the arts gulf arts council conducted a needs

4:41:13Analysis showing the existing and growing need for art space for studios

4:41:18education for events for galleries for guilds and more

4:41:23And we had the gummer building fire and the escalation of rental costs for artists went up even more

4:41:31We know that arts and culture sectors have proven to be loads of data that shows that it's a positive driver of economic development and quality life

4:41:40Quality of life. We know that cities

4:41:43municipalities play a significant role in place making and creation and

4:41:48operation of cultural and community spaces

4:41:51We know that the city of gulf culture plan identifies and I quote the need for more cultural spaces and programs and further

4:41:59specifically identifies the drill hall for quote culture uses including quote

4:42:05upgrading of amenities as required that's in our culture plan

4:42:09We also know that the eio process the expression of interest process was lengthy and thorough and it resulted in a viable

4:42:16Proponent for future cultural and community use

4:42:20We also know that the city of gulf is expected to grow significantly in density and population in the downtown by 2031

4:42:28We know that there's no future residential use and we know that a market sounding study previously concluded there was no private interest

4:42:36We have also

4:42:39Put considerable public investment into the drill hall five million dollars

4:42:44And we did that because we wanted to preserve the structure and have it available for a wide variety of uses for the community

4:42:53And therefore I believe its future use should have public benefit. That's been a public investment. The outcome should have public benefit

4:42:59We also know that the adaptive reuse of the drill hall for community use was actually a stated goal in the metro links transaction in 2017

4:43:09But we didn't put any financial commitment embedded into future budgets. That's on that's on council. That's not on staff

4:43:16So staff are here today telling us

4:43:18Their recommendation is because they don't have the funds to proceed with any other option

4:43:25That's on us. We we have to make it clear to them as as

4:43:30C. A. O. Stewart said we have to give them direction that we're willing to put a little skin in the game here

4:43:35We don't know how much we don't know what our tolerance level is for how much but we need to go out and do that work

4:43:42We also know

4:43:43We've been a successful tenant and a successful landlord in numerous adaptive reuse projects

4:43:50That serve public benefit the boathouse the youth music center the evergreen city in your center the farmers market

4:43:57Heck we're the tenant

4:43:59In the gulf civic museum adaptive reuse of the loretto convent where the diocese said we want to maintain ownership

4:44:06You will be a tenant in our building. So we're we're we've actually done successful models on both sides

4:44:14So we can do this

4:44:16And I have to be honest because I'm wrapping up my five minutes

4:44:19I think this is our last opportunity in the downtown to get a cultural community art center

4:44:24I can't think of another city owned asset that will provide another opportunity like this in our downtown

4:44:31We have um, you know, we have um the library plan but the library plan involves selling and and using that asset for the current library

4:44:41um, so

4:44:43There's lots of work to be done here and I I hope these motions will will move us that next step forward

4:44:48I think the the uh, gulf civic uh center for visual arts is done

4:44:53Uh, and a significant amount of work in the proposal

4:44:56We all recognize more work needs to be done

4:44:59But we need to give direction to staff that we want to see what those conversations look like

4:45:03And that we as a council we might we we're willing to put some skin in the game depending on what comes back

4:45:09I don't think we should be making that decision now

4:45:12We're not saying we're going to put in a million or 27 dollars

4:45:15We're saying we want to see what that looks like how we need staff to have the flexibility to go out and have those conversations

4:45:22and

4:45:24for the gulf cva grid to go out and have those conversations with their funders and their supporters, so I think this has to move it forward and

4:45:32and we'll

4:45:33See what the outcome is in here

4:45:36Great. Thank you. Thank you so much

4:45:39Councillor alton council or work, please

4:45:43Thank you very much

4:45:50Um, councillor Allt

4:45:54Yeah, I'm so sorry. Um

4:45:56We may move a motion to get you better internet

4:45:59If you could turn off the the video that would be great then we can hear you clearly. Thank you so much

4:46:05That's all right. I've turned it off

4:46:09um

4:46:09I just I want to reflect back on some of the wealth system and

4:46:13Many times wealth has changed its

4:46:17At one point we were

4:46:19Future and another time your part caused the country some council or alt

4:46:24We're so counts council or alt

4:46:27I'm gonna have to come I'm gonna have to come back to you or you're gonna have to start tying little notes to pigeons or something because

4:46:34The communication is not working

4:46:36So, uh, if just pause if you don't mind we'll see if maybe it's better. I'm gonna come back to you. I'm gonna go to councillor

4:46:43Or work, please

4:46:47Thank you, mayor gassburg. I have a couple of questions about the amendments

4:46:52Because I will support

4:46:54Providing some additional time to explore

4:46:58I'm not interested today to say basically we're opening up a new rec center and we've got skin in the game. That's that's not my position here

4:47:05um

4:47:06So on clause one

4:47:09The the last part of that

4:47:12The last sentence is recognizing that no additional financial commitment from the city is currently approved

4:47:18staff will work with

4:47:19wealth

4:47:20center for visual arts to explore alternative funding opportunities and

4:47:25I don't know that that's the role our staff would routinely take to be exploring funding opportunities

4:47:32For a third party

4:47:34So i'm wondering if staff

4:47:36Can comment on that whether you have capacity whether that's even appropriate for you to be doing that

4:47:49So through you, mr. Mayor

4:47:51I I think I would like an opportunity just so that we can get clarity on that as well

4:47:57Um, typically you're right. Typically we're not we don't go looking for money for others

4:48:01If we happen to see it we might pass it on to others

4:48:05But we typically don't get that engaged on behalf of others

4:48:09I don't know that we've never done it. So let me I don't want to go too far with that statement

4:48:13But we could clarify that between now and the end of the month whether it's the cultural staff

4:48:18Or our folks in in my office

4:48:22But we are certainly more focused on

4:48:27So I don't want to I'm god. I was going to say core business is for us

4:48:30So I don't want to struggle that this couldn't be a core business

4:48:33Typically we don't do it for others

4:48:35And if we do do this it would have to be sort of clear by the time you get to council at the end of the month

4:48:40We're we haven't set up a consultancy business for doing it for others because if one gets it sometimes

4:48:46There's a knock on the door to say well, you did it so well

4:48:49Can't you do that for us as well? So I don't want to be a wet blanket on this

4:48:53But maybe by the end of the month we could put a little detail to that so that you you collectively have got a better understanding of

4:49:00You know what would be the movers

4:49:02thoughts were on advocacy

4:49:04And maybe maybe we're aligned and that might be helpful by the end of the month that

4:49:08Councillor or arourke I we could actually answer you very directly then because it feels like I'm tap dancing a little bit

4:49:14Because I haven't got a good answer for you right this second. Okay, so I appreciate that and I'll just state my intention that

4:49:21Through that work, I may move to strike that last clause

4:49:25At the end of the month. So depending on what the answer back to you is

4:49:29um

4:49:30Because I'm I'm concerned about work that we would do for an organization in the community that we would not do for

4:49:36Others so so that was my question on clause one my question on clause two

4:49:40Is I'm not clear about the numbers anymore? So the clause says

4:49:45The estimate is approximately 125 000 annually, but mr. Vilko just said no at 60 000 for utility and security

4:49:52per year. So should that number be 60 000?

4:49:55um is my question

4:50:00so through you

4:50:02Through the mayor to councillor work

4:50:05If i'm understanding the question correctly, I think there's some confusion on because there's two numbers that are 60 000

4:50:12So we have 60 000 currently budgeted

4:50:16For utilities and security. Yep. What we don't have budgeted for our future years for capital investment for

4:50:24maintenance things like a roof leak building envelope

4:50:27Vandalism to the structure those types of things currently aren't budgeted

4:50:31Okay, so through you mega three. Can you help me understand? We've just stabilized the building

4:50:36We just spent five million dollars on the building

4:50:38And if we say all we're doing is we're going to stop the clock on putting the for sale sign outside

4:50:46So we don't need to be fixing the roof or other things and I would expect that there is budget

4:50:52There's budget in case there's vandalism at any city facility, right?

4:50:58So so I i'm not understanding why we need

4:51:01the additional 60 000 for

4:51:04for ongoing maintenance

4:51:06um

4:51:07and I don't know maybe it was getting late in the day, but

4:51:12Why would 60 000 not be sufficient in terms of

4:51:16security and utilities

4:51:2060 000 is what is in the budget for

4:51:23security and utilities

4:51:26Okay

4:51:27so then uh through you mega three to the mover

4:51:37It's two years. It's over two years. Is that why that's the number? Okay. Well, let me ask the mover

4:51:46Go to the mover. Why is the number 125 000 instead of 60 000?

4:51:51Um, that was the number I got from staff. I did not realize that it wasn't

4:51:55That there was a capital kind of reserve working to that. I thought it was 125

4:52:01for maintenance for utilities and security

4:52:05and maintenance to me meant, you know

4:52:08Cut the grass and wash the windows. It wasn't roof leaks or vandalism. I mean we have a corporate property

4:52:16portfolio that it deals with all of our corporate assets

4:52:20and

4:52:21So it's a long-winded answer to

4:52:24the uh

4:52:25Motion is amended to 60 000 for utilities and security

4:52:31That's certainly an order. Um

4:52:34We'll know in a year whether we're we're going forward with this or not and if we need capital money

4:52:41Do other work we'll know at that time as well

4:52:44If it's for two years and it's 120 000, that's different if that gets us through to the end of 2025

4:52:51With 120 000, then I think that should be

4:52:54But it should stay at 120 000

4:52:58So through you margithria, can we get some to some clarification from staff? I mean, I don't want to argue for a long time about 60 000

4:53:06really, um

4:53:08but I just want some clarity in terms of um

4:53:12What what is the cost for for a more fulsome exploration of whether we can retain the building and public ownership

4:53:18and have somebody else do the leasehold improvements and make this a great

4:53:23asset

4:53:25So through the mayor to councillor work, it's going to cost us roughly 125 000 a year to have that building in our possession

4:53:33The first 60 000 of that or roughly half

4:53:37is for your um utility costs and your

4:53:41insurances and that sort of thing

4:53:43The second 60 000

4:53:46Is going to be for the and it doesn't matter whether it's in whatever budget it's in you're going to have roof leaks

4:53:51You're going to have other maintenance that's required at the facility. You're going to have vandalism

4:53:56So that extra 60 000 that we will you know based on an average of whatever we spend at other facilities

4:54:03That's what it's going to cost us

4:54:05Out of some budget within the city to maintain that building

4:54:08So we don't have you know roof leaking in on the wood and causing rot and things like that

4:54:14Okay, so it's a hypothetical it's an up to okay, and

4:54:19So I'll just say even if the building was up for sale. We likely would have to have those

4:54:25Funds in place because we don't know how quickly that building would sell anyways, right?

4:54:29Okay, so those are my questions mayor Guthrie. I'm gonna let it go till the end of the month

4:54:34I won't be comfortable with staff necessarily going out and doing the the legwork to find grants and donors and corporate sponsors. I think that

4:54:43That would be our effort that's misplaced

4:54:46But I do want to buy some time to see if this asset can remain in

4:54:52public ownership

4:54:54And you know and if we see a building that becomes like the Guelphys Music Center or the Boathouse

4:54:59Or those things and the Boathouse had been slated or recommended by staff to be demolished to make room for parking

4:55:05So I think that was a good call on that council's part and I want to see

4:55:09I want to give it a little time to see if we can make a decision like that as well

4:55:12Okay, thank you. I'm gonna try a councillor Allt and

4:55:18And just so everyone knows I have katin and then downer after that, okay

4:55:22So I just don't want to save your arm from going up there councillor Caton all the time. Sorry about that

4:55:27So councillor Allt give it a go

4:55:29First of all, can you hear me?

4:55:31Pardon John. I'm just kidding. Yeah

4:55:36Thank you very much. Um, I I do want to thank

4:55:39Uh, this uh, thank you mover council coran for putting this motion forward

4:55:44I think it's a very thoughtful one and it does get back to both our history and to our future

4:55:50Guelph at one point sold itself as historic past and a progressive future and also as cosmopolitan countryside

4:55:58And frankly, we want it all we want a downtown that's revitalized with new better

4:56:04Infrastructure in place we were historically from the 1970s a place where students used to rent studios

4:56:11Downtown and we became an arts center. Dare I say that james gordon who was a former councillor?

4:56:17Like to dub this a music center and extrapolate that to the arts as well

4:56:22This is fundamental to the character of guelph and to the artists that have lived here

4:56:27Whether they're visual artists or they're they're they're they're musicians or they're writers

4:56:32This is giving them the note that the city believes in them and recognizes

4:56:37That they are workers and artists and that they provide an economic

4:56:42Incentive that we need to have in the downtown the downtown is one of our biggest employers

4:56:48This is just going to add to that and while I said I was skeptical about many things that were presented to us today

4:56:54I think we give this the opportunity that it deserves and that's a year to come back and fill in the banks

4:57:02Thank you. Uh, kate and then downer

4:57:06Through you mr. Mayor, I'd like to um make an amendment by addition

4:57:11I'm sure go right ahead. You have the floor

4:57:14Um, so I don't know clerks can thank you very much

4:57:17Um, I would like that the following clauses be added as number three and number four that the lease of 72 farcour be subject to the

4:57:24Gcba's creation of an equity and inclusion plan that addresses the concerns of equity deserving artists in the community

4:57:31and number four that the lease of 72 farcour be subject to the

4:57:35Gcba's following the city's engagement procedures in their planning before returning to council in 2025

4:57:40I just have some equity and diversity

4:57:44Um concerns that I think need to have a little bit more specific planning

4:57:49And um, I want to make sure that those are addressed before we make our decision

4:57:54Sure. Can I just ask was there a seconder for that?

4:57:58Yes, that's counter alt alt

4:58:00Okay. Yeah, can I just jump in everyone right away? I I I think there's going to be a problem with the wording there

4:58:06I know it's going to be for me

4:58:09What what the wording says there is basically like we are leasing it

4:58:13If you put that back up on the screen

4:58:16Both of those motions

4:58:18Basically state yep, we're leasing it

4:58:22And I think you either need to add the potential lease or to explore or to request

4:58:29The Gcba that in coming back there's an equity and inclusion plan

4:58:35But if you if council goes ahead and says that the lease of 72 farcour be shut like it

4:58:42It it might it's almost going against councillor Caron's motions in a way

4:58:48So I'm happy to um to add potential into there

4:58:53Just do the clerk's office need me to email that or are you okay to

4:58:56Uh, let me just let me just say uh, would you be willing to remove your motion?

4:59:03Just temporarily

4:59:05Yep. Yeah, okay, and you're willing to temporarily uh, no, uh, you remove your seconder councillor Allt

4:59:12And is all of council okay with that?

4:59:15Thank you. Uh, councillor kate and i'm coming back to you. We're going to put a your motions seconded by councillor Allt back on the floor

4:59:22And I think uh now now I think I'm trying I'm trying to help you here by the way. I hope you can see that

4:59:28I that the potential lease um

4:59:31Okay, so now I will stop talking because I shouldn't have maybe tried to jump in like that

4:59:36Is there any questions of uh council council uh councillor downer, please?

4:59:41I'm just sort of questioning with to staff. Would it be better to

4:59:45Have the city's engagement to public engagement principles rather than procedures

4:59:51Because there's a set of principles

4:59:54Um rather than the specific procedures that we go through

4:59:59I'm just wondering like because they may how would they design it for the arts community might be a little different than how we would

5:00:06Do it, but I want them to follow our principles of public engagement

5:00:12So through you mr. Mayor that might be a friendly amendment that that could be added in procedures versus principles. I think

5:00:21It would get everything that I think the mover is looking for but it would also maybe speak to

5:00:26The the rigidness of some of it when it sounds like a procedure

5:00:31It's just you're embedded in the principles that we follow

5:00:34And I that that may be a friendly amendment if the uh mover is willing that I think we would be supportive of as staff

5:00:40Yeah, the principles when I look them up were

5:00:44I don't know if I copied them here, but

5:00:48Um

5:00:53There is about seven of them and it it sort of covers off so much of what we talked about was inclusion and you know

5:01:03Rather than the specific the specifics because I I would want them to design it to what they do and and also it's not

5:01:11It's going to be their organization not the city's organization

5:01:14But I would like that their

5:01:16their public engagement to be aligned with ours and to do that it it may not be the procedures, but it would be the principles

5:01:26So I can move an amendment or

5:01:30Okay

5:01:31Yeah, change it to um to public and and I would yeah public engagement principles

5:01:39In the second clause and that's that's second day by councillor or rork

5:01:43I know that councillor downer is already putting her fingers on the keyboard there to send that to the clerks

5:01:50Uh for that, but I think we got it

5:01:53So if everyone is okay with that I'm going to move I'm going to move to voting for that

5:01:58So is anyone against changing the word procedures to principles?

5:02:04okay

5:02:06You really need to see sorry. It's just it's just changing one word

5:02:13No, I'll go back to the main whole thing in a second right now

5:02:16This motion is this vote is just to change a word procedures to principles

5:02:21Then I'll go back to it as amended

5:02:23Is that okay?

5:02:27Yep. Okay. Well, okay. I won't call the vote yet. Councillor Goller needs to see it

5:02:37It's okay. The clerks are are getting it up for us everyone through you mr. Mayor

5:02:40We'll pull up the original motion here. I have it received an amendment in writing

5:02:44I understand the idea is that the word procedures and what would be the new clause number four would change to

5:02:50principles that's right amendment would effectively read that the word principles and cause for be replaced with the word

5:02:56principles

5:03:01Councillor is that okay with you? Okay, so we're just changing the word

5:03:06Sorry procedures to principles before I call the vote councillor Gibson

5:03:10Yeah, just a simple administrative

5:03:13um item councillor cat and I believe your motion is presented as an amendment

5:03:18To the original motion. So are we amending an amendment?

5:03:22Um, mr. Mayor

5:03:24Yes, we're amending an amendment which means that's where I have to stop. I can't do anything more

5:03:29I have to clear this one up before we can't go any further. Okay. Thank you

5:03:34Okay

5:03:35So I'm going to call the vote on changing one word

5:03:38Is anyone against that?

5:03:41Nobody okay, we have

5:03:44principles

5:03:45Not procedures in there now. I'd like to call the vote

5:03:49On the amendment

5:03:51Um, the two those two clauses as amended

5:03:55And I'll do that now is anyone against those two

5:04:00Nobody so that's unanimous. So that's great. Thanks councillor caton. We are back to the main

5:04:05motion

5:04:06With those added clauses and amended. Okay

5:04:09um

5:04:14Downer than clausen

5:04:19Yes, you know, um, what I'd like to say is basically ditto to what I've heard about

5:04:27Ideally, um, I'd see an aspiration of retaining that building it was

5:04:33in our cultural plan, um

5:04:35To do something like this is a gap in our culture community

5:04:40Um, and I think it was in the previous parks and rec

5:04:44um and culture plan too that we have fine space that there was a

5:04:49and identified a gap and that was

5:04:522009

5:04:53Um that we've you know, we had that in that plan it might have been there before because I just remember going way back from a from a visual arts perspective

5:05:02Um that we haven't been providing this this space and I think it's needed. Um

5:05:07I do think we need I sort of agree with um councillor roark around

5:05:13I think we need to further define and I think

5:05:16Um

5:05:18uh

5:05:19Stuart has talked about this too council needs to sort of give more parameters around this direction because I don't know

5:05:25That we're completely all on the page on what's skin in the game or not skin in the game

5:05:29I mean our skin in the game right now is five million dollars and stabilizing this building

5:05:35um

5:05:36And you know, that's far more than the gulfy music center got

5:05:40um, so I just want to say that

5:05:43It that's a concern for me whether you know also there there could be things that we can exempt through this

5:05:50I don't know but we need to sort of set these parameters sometime before the end of the month

5:05:55They're in a in camber then or somehow

5:05:58Get to that point because you know the other thing too is like from their business case. I don't see us having a point of

5:06:06sharing in any profits or anything we don't take

5:06:10Anything from the gulf youth music center that way is just a straight agreement to me that just creates more administrative stuff

5:06:17We don't collect profits from the boat house

5:06:19Um, which is a private enterprise and we lease it to them. So I you know, I just want to sort of point that out that

5:06:26This is a community benefit in itself if the community

5:06:30Can do this. I think it would be amazing

5:06:33Um, I think we should be a willing and active partner in trying to help them make this happen

5:06:40Um, you know when they're I think, you know, sometimes where there's a will and passion

5:06:45There's often a way to get it done. Um, I do think we need to find a I think council needs to be clearer about

5:06:53What that agreement may look like? I'm coming back and I don't know if there's any way

5:07:00Mr. Stewart or

5:07:03Colleen that we can sort of

5:07:06By the end of the month sort of

5:07:09Or do we need an additional motion or or to that sort of

5:07:14Fushes that out that we can work on before the end of the month. Just create a few parameters around that

5:07:24So through you, mr. Mayor, I think so that we can get through this evening

5:07:28We hear you loud and clear and we as you were talking not to be rude

5:07:31But we were also saying we have got to get together internally a staff on what does all this mean?

5:07:36What did we think we what did we hear tonight?

5:07:38What did we think we heard and was missing and maybe set something up at council?

5:07:43That that might be a bit of a discussion in camera initially just because there is

5:07:48Maybe some negotiations it maybe doesn't have to be in camera

5:07:51But to give you time and give us a little bit of time between now and then

5:07:55To put some of these thoughts together because at the end of the month we want to make sure we don't miss it

5:08:01So that we can move this thing forward and you're comfortable with moving it forward because you're

5:08:06We've absolutely expressed what's included and what's excluded

5:08:10And you know ownership or for dollars and cents or you know the collective

5:08:15The cba's councillor downer that you've talked about for others. How does this all work and come together?

5:08:20We could deal with the are we are we advocates and we might come back and say well, you know

5:08:25We're stepping in a turf for others that do fundraising. Maybe we shouldn't

5:08:30But we'll you'll be able to do that at the end of the month without the pressure of

5:08:35We've got to squeeze it in in the next half an hour

5:08:37So if if you give us a little bit of flexibility

5:08:39We'll try to work with you through clerk so that we can get that landed so that you've got the appropriate time

5:08:45When we get to council at the end of the month

5:08:50That sounds good. So I don't know whether

5:08:54Councillor Kerron is is willing to take that on or we couldn't work on that with staff

5:09:01Think I'll back with some it looks like the mover is shaking her head in agreement that she might be able to work with staff

5:09:08Since you mentioned the mover, I'll just give the the floor to the mover just for a second to respond to that if you're willing

5:09:14willing to do that councillor Caron

5:09:16So absolutely that that's kind of the whole intent of what we're doing here is to to give some empowerment to staff

5:09:24staff

5:09:25All the time whenever they we come across anything where they need to come back to us and ask for money

5:09:31Ask for funding ask for something to be added to the budget

5:09:34They're empowered to do so

5:09:36So we want to empower them to do so whether that's in the form of a community benefit agreement or in the form of a

5:09:43loan in the form of a

5:09:45x number of dollars over five years or

5:09:49I want to see what that looks like, but we need to empower staff to do that

5:09:53And just to address councillor works comment

5:09:56That is not to go out and help them find funding and help them write proposals for outside funding

5:10:01This is only for things that the city would offer

5:10:04in kind or in finances

5:10:07Addresses councillor down this question

5:10:10So

5:10:12So I wasn't talking about budgeting at all councillor Caron like I

5:10:17See and this is where I think there's some disagreement. I don't see

5:10:21A discussion here for cba's at this point or you know for them to come back or in those negotiations

5:10:28I don't see that sort of in kind stuff at that point. Like I just I really I

5:10:35Don't think that should be part of that. I think the discussion is

5:10:39You know kind of here's here's the building and and you know, here's you know the dollar lease and

5:10:46What what what what is the agreement going to be is it like the Groll fief music center?

5:10:51Is it something else? I think those other things might come later, but I

5:10:56You know or they might even be suggested in if staff come across them

5:11:01They can suggest them in the um in they're coming back, but I don't want them as coming back as part of a recommendation

5:11:09Okay, I think the takeaway here is that our staff have really listened to everything and

5:11:15I think that they're walking with us between now and the end of the month to help

5:11:19Bring clarity in those parameters and criteria and and what not to

5:11:23To to the public realm at the end of the month so that we can be a bit more

5:11:27Informed before you vote finally as a council

5:11:31Let's keep moving here folks. I got councillor Klassen

5:11:35Yes, thank you through mr. Mayor. This is just a comment. Um, I do

5:11:42uh, want to say ditto to everyone and to kind of keep things quick so we can get to a vote

5:11:48Um, I just have a quick comment. I really I do echo what

5:11:52councillor roark and councillor downer brought up

5:11:56Um, I I think I really want to support the arts group

5:12:00It's important and I I know a lot of the community has has communicated with us that this is certainly something that

5:12:06We should look at in more depth

5:12:08But I do think that the financial model needs to back it up and I am willing to have

5:12:16this time

5:12:18to build something that's more sound and

5:12:22Yeah, looking forward to continuing the conversation

5:12:26Thank you. I've got three more on my list here. Um, I'm circling back to or work and to gibson and to go

5:12:33I'm circling back to all three of you. Okay, so or work

5:12:36Uh, thank you. Mayor gretzry. Just the more I look at the language of the

5:12:41the motion

5:12:43I'm wondering so the wording says the council direct staff to commence negotiations for an agreement with the gulf center for visual art

5:12:51board

5:12:53And I am one and they confirm that they are constituted as a nonprofit

5:12:56So they're able to enter into those but I am wondering whether the language should be softened

5:13:03To say to commence exploring an agreement with the gulf center for visual arts

5:13:09Negotiation to me feels like we're going to sit down with the contract. It feels a bit like a foregone conclusion

5:13:17Um, and and we've all been clear about our intent to see if this can work and to buy some time

5:13:26Yeah, so I am going to

5:13:29Table of motion to change the words to commence negotiations

5:13:34So that the motion reads that council direct staff to explore an agreement with the gulf center for visual arts

5:13:42um

5:13:43That's the motion all proposed that's been seconded by councillor Goller

5:13:47Yeah, and I'll just say

5:13:50I think we're saying it twice in that motion. We're saying

5:13:54Providing a time limited window ending june 2025 for the gcva to secure commitments for the required resources needed to convert the facility

5:14:03Etc. So we're saying

5:14:06We are we're creating that space for them to find the funds as uh, councillor boostill alluded to

5:14:12Um, and I think we probably could strike staff will work with gcva to explore alternative funding opportunities

5:14:18I think they will in their exploration be talking about

5:14:21um

5:14:22You know is are their development charges that are waived or that kind of thing

5:14:26So I won't do that second piece today

5:14:29I will wait for staff to come back and see what that is in my mind

5:14:33um

5:14:35I don't want to start deciding we're going to fund a new thing

5:14:38outside of budget outside of the four-year process to councillor gibson's very good point

5:14:44Um, when we've got two facilities are coming online fall of 2026

5:14:49And we heard about what the asset management looks like. So we've got lots and lots of financial constraints

5:14:54um

5:14:55So I will just propose the amendment to change to commence negotiations to

5:15:00um

5:15:01Read to explore an agreement and I'll type it out

5:15:07Okay, I'd like to call the vote please on this

5:15:10To keep us moving. So we're changing that to explore. Is anyone against that amendment?

5:15:17Nobody that's unanimous. Okay. Thank you

5:15:20Uh, gibson back to you then goller

5:15:24Yeah, thank you for uh, the amendment councillor or I I too will forward a small minor amendment

5:15:30But I think it's very important for my support of this motion anyway

5:15:34um

5:15:34The inf, sorry councillor

5:15:37I am absolutely not picking on you

5:15:39But the inflection in your voice and the way you deliver the motion and the the sense of

5:15:43A loan or agreement or community benefit that has come out of your

5:15:47Justification for the motion really causes me pause with the word currently

5:15:51so um in the motion

5:15:53I I do not want to foregone. I don't want a foregone conclusion in this motion. I will support an exploration

5:16:00But I when we use the term currently

5:16:04Funded I felt like that's

5:16:06Getting us way ahead of ourselves in terms of what the council direction has been to date. So if we can

5:16:13If I can move a motion calling for just the removal of the word currently from that last sentence

5:16:18Doesn't get to the full nature of that last entire sentence, but it does take away some of the

5:16:23inflection in the sort of leading words

5:16:27In the motion. It's just a factual. There is no current

5:16:30Funding available. I don't think that that's I think that that's appropriate. There is no funding available. That's no funding approved

5:16:40So I'm sorry. I could you put the motion up on the screen clerks and then

5:16:46Make sure you make sure you please send that as an email councillor uh Gibson

5:16:52Yeah, because I just I need to see it as we uh, and then I need to do I need to see if there's a seconder

5:17:04Bear with me. I've got I've got to type it up

5:17:09So where is that?

5:17:12Oh, it's in the last one last and recognize that no additional financial commitment from the city is approved

5:17:17That's simply it's just a minor to remove the word amendment is to strike the word currently. That's right

5:17:23Okay, is there a seconder for that as well? Okay, councillor Goller will second that as well

5:17:28Okay, is there anyone on on that one amendment councillor Caron, please

5:17:34Yeah, I'm going to vote against the amendment because because currently means right now at the time at the time we

5:17:42Take a vote on this clause

5:17:44We're saying there's no current approval

5:17:47but

5:17:48We're not we don't want to say that that may not happen in the future

5:17:53And I I just think currently is actually clear

5:17:57It says right now. There's no funding available

5:18:00But that doesn't mean that there isn't moving forward. So for me, it's actually

5:18:05More clear with the current wording so I'll vote against

5:18:11Okay, um, thank you. Thank you. Thank you both. We'll see. Well, I'll just look to call the vote then

5:18:16To restricting the word currently is anyone against that

5:18:22So just karan and

5:18:25Sorry, um, alt is you put your hand up and down. I didn't know what you're doing there

5:18:30You're against. Okay. So that's two against. Okay. Thank you. So that passes

5:18:35Okay, I'm gone to my last person on my list goller

5:18:40Thank you through your worship. I will be supporting

5:18:44these

5:18:45This group of motions

5:18:47I do want to make sure that we're all on the same page that we are committing to

5:18:51provide funding of 125 000 annually until

5:18:55this is resolved

5:18:56And that in the proposal to councillor downer's point of

5:19:01Revenue sharing those are actually their lease payments. So under the proposal submitted by

5:19:07The wolf center for visual arts

5:19:09There would be no lease payments to the city for the first three years

5:19:12And then in year four they start with with about

5:19:17$2,000 of lease payments for the year and then in year five it goes up a little bit

5:19:21And that is something that i'm hoping that

5:19:23through through staff

5:19:25Through that negotiations if we can get us to a point where where it is

5:19:31They're at least covering the cost of maintaining the building

5:19:35So i'm hoping that between now and the end of the month will have some more clarity about those boundaries of what it is that we're negotiating

5:19:41And what we're talking about

5:19:44I certainly want to maintain this as a public building

5:19:48But but I do have some concerns about using

5:19:51city resources to to support a

5:19:55profit organization that is not a municipal organization

5:20:02Thank you councillor

5:20:04Okay, um, so i'll just be very quick with uh my comments just a few

5:20:09So if we had not just dropped five million dollars into this building

5:20:15I would probably be a lot more on side with selling it

5:20:18But um, we did just drop five million dollars into this building and so I feel like it is not the right time to

5:20:26To to sell it at all

5:20:28um, and

5:20:31I am I am a fan of the arts and I I think that there

5:20:36Is a lot of validity in exploring

5:20:39That that terminology has been used now exploring

5:20:42An a viable option and and with that idea. I think that's that's that's really smart. I'm going to call that smart

5:20:49Um, do I feel it's good if it if this was to come to life? Is it going to be good for tourism?

5:20:55I believe so is it going to be good for economic development? Yes

5:20:58Is it going to be great to restore and have a heritage building in our downtown? Yes

5:21:04um, is it going to tie in with uh, the reconstruction complete of windom street in some way? Yes

5:21:11Uh, am I getting ticked with us always losing assets in our downtown core? Yes

5:21:17uh, so I um, I I feel like this is a really great opportunity

5:21:24and um, I uh, so I I'll absolutely be giving them that time. I think I think an investment and we could argue about

5:21:3450 of it may be being embedded in a budget or not anyways

5:21:38Of you know around 60 000 at this point uh to 120 as the top end

5:21:44Is absolutely worth it for one year to see what we can do

5:21:48I will just state very publicly. I talked to councillor salisbury a few days ago and I did say to him

5:21:55We did I call him councillor salisbury? Oh, well, sorry about that too. Mike salisbury

5:22:00And I did state very clearly to him and I'll say it on the record right now

5:22:04We we do not have any money

5:22:07We do not have any money. So um, but the idea to me is worth more

5:22:14Than what the potential cost to actually rehabilitate this building is I think it's worth more than that for the for the community

5:22:21So to me it's worth it to uh to to have it keep going

5:22:26Finally, I just want to say I know we're under budget pressures and I and I and I fully acknowledge that

5:22:32But I just want to make sure there's I have I have felt a little bit like there's maybe a little bit of a narrative

5:22:39That the budget pressure is on this particular issue or because is because of mayoral direction

5:22:44I want to be very clear

5:22:46That it's not the request for expression of interest on this building went out prior

5:22:52to the um to the mayoral direction on the budget

5:22:55so

5:22:57It was very clear in the expression of interest that we had no money

5:23:01And that was even with a forecast at a 10 budget for 2025. So

5:23:06I understand that there's more pressures now. I get that but the

5:23:09Expression of interest went out prior to the mayoral direction. So I just don't really want to tie those those issues together

5:23:15I don't think that's uh, that's appropriate

5:23:18um with that though, um, I do feel like the uh group has a way to go

5:23:24and

5:23:25I will say that I think it's been good that we had a sort of a public airing of what's going on here because it

5:23:31Clearly has has stated that there are a lot of issues that are unresolved

5:23:35Now I'm going to call the vote on this and then if you if my council could

5:23:40Bear with me. I have something else. I'd like to consider proposing and we'll go from there and then call it a night

5:23:44So I'll call the vote on this and then we'll move move forward. Is anyone against uh, uh, these motions originally from uh,

5:23:52moved by councillor

5:23:54Quran and clausen

5:23:57Okay, nobody that's unanimous. That's great. All right. Thank you everybody

5:24:02um, and then I I have one that I I would like to um

5:24:06for us to consider

5:24:08But I will not even speak to it because of a procedure

5:24:12um, because I'm the chair

5:24:14But I I I was told that councillor Klassen and alt would be willing to move the motion that I have

5:24:22Uh, tabled so if I could ask, um

5:24:26uh, the clerks to

5:24:28To put that up for me and I'll give a very quick preamble and then I'll leave it up to everybody here

5:24:34So here's my preamble

5:24:36My preamble is this I think that the idea has a lot of merit

5:24:41But I do not think that the clarity that this group needs

5:24:47is coming

5:24:50Back to council or to the public in a manner that I think we need it to be

5:24:56What I'm trying to say is is that I think they I think this idea is worthy

5:25:02of a very small if we could call it skin in the game at this point

5:25:07To help them with a feasibility study

5:25:10So they have somebody that they can help with a professional feasibility study

5:25:15On everything that's being discussed

5:25:17And that there's validity behind their idea so that it comes back to us

5:25:24publicly you'll notice I put in there that it has to be posted publicly

5:25:28And at the same time, I think it would also alleviate our staff a little bit

5:25:33From having to maybe do a lot of hand holding

5:25:36And instead let's let's give some like I'll gotta call it seed funding

5:25:42To the group to be able to use that to help with a

5:25:47professional feasibility study

5:25:49To help guide them as they move through the progress of the of the of the motions that we just passed

5:25:54But they have a deadline of the end of this year and to have that that public feasibility study

5:26:00posted and to the you know and trusting our staff through the deputy ceo that it's to their

5:26:05Satisfaction, I will stop there. Those are my reasons. Does anyone have any questions on this at all council or rork?

5:26:14Thanks, sorry, marga three. I'm just

5:26:18Is this considered

5:26:19A

5:26:21I'm just worried about sort of procedural fairness and whether we are able to do this and the the other example that comes out is

5:26:29I'm just concerned because we've heard lots of concern particularly from the arts community

5:26:36about

5:26:37grants in the last

5:26:40couple of months

5:26:42I'm just worried about

5:26:44Procedural fairness and whether we are able to do this and the the other example that comes to mind is several years ago

5:26:51I know we didn't have a fund for this

5:26:52But a large church wanted to know if we could cover off their heritage study

5:26:58To see if they could build affordable housing or not or whether there'd be some constraints and we said no

5:27:04This is before my time on council

5:27:06So so i'm going to pretend i'm brand new on council because there's still lots of stuff that's coming up for me for the first time

5:27:12Are we are we allowed to do this? Are we allowed to

5:27:16Make a decision like that outside of a cba outside of a process

5:27:21All that oh, sorry. I'm sorry deputy c. A. O clock bush and thank you for the question

5:27:25Go ahead. So through the mayor to council rork. We're quickly back and forth with the mayor

5:27:29I think we were envisioning this as

5:27:32I mean council always has the right

5:27:33While you have a community investment strategy that generally awards funding through grants or cba's you always reserve the right as council

5:27:40To directly award and from time to time you have chosen to directly award

5:27:45To not-for-profit or charitable organizations outside of that process. We don't recommend that you do it often

5:27:51We certainly recommend that you stick to the grant process or the cba process generally

5:27:56I think this is an extenuating circumstance

5:27:58But I think that's why in working with mayor gath we worded the motion to say that it is subject to

5:28:05The satisfaction of the deputy c. A. O of public services so that we stay consistent with the community investment strategy

5:28:11Because all of our grants and cba's do still stay within my delegated authority and do still stay to my satisfaction

5:28:18So that I still have the ability

5:28:20For an example you heard the delegates say that they were registered as a not-for-profit or charitable organization

5:28:25We will make sure that that is the case. So before the the money flows

5:28:29We were trying to make this simple so that we didn't have to enter into a complex cba for a small amount of money

5:28:35And recognizing that the desire was to do something fairly quick

5:28:40Turn around so I think the short answer to your question is we are comfortable that it is okay to do

5:28:46subject to council's direction, but that

5:28:49By doing it this way subject to the satisfaction of the deputy c. A. O

5:28:54That that covers off that but certainly it is outside of the normal of what we would recommend through the community investment strategy

5:29:02It was is that you normally follow your granting or your cba processes

5:29:08Thanks, mayor Guthrie

5:29:10So then my other question I do consulting work and I always ask

5:29:15Who's the client?

5:29:16right

5:29:17so

5:29:19Should this move forward and sometimes?

5:29:22The the consultants work comes back framed with the expectations of the client

5:29:26So who's the client in this case? Is it both the city?

5:29:30And the golf center for visual arts will you both be participating in outlining what you're looking for in that contract?

5:29:38So through the mayor to council or work, we don't have this on our work plan to undertake this feasibility study and so I think

5:29:45um, perhaps the

5:29:48Maybe the benefit to providing this funding is and again, I don't want to speak for the movers

5:29:54Um, we don't have the staff capacity to assist with this feasibility study

5:29:59But I think to my earlier response

5:30:01Certainly recognizing some of the questions that have arisen

5:30:05We want to be able to come back to you with

5:30:08Answers to some of the questions. So we would like to stay connected to this

5:30:14I think it is still

5:30:16The the the the

5:30:18organizations feasibility study

5:30:20Um, but that we are providing this funding and this feasibility study may cost more than the amount of money that we're providing

5:30:27So I think we are our funding is subject to the satisfaction of our

5:30:33Our participation in it, but ultimately they are still the client

5:30:36It is their feasibility study and they may spend

5:30:3830 000 on their feasibility study that is their decision to make

5:30:42We are providing funding in if I understand the motion correctly and and the mayor and the movers could correct me

5:30:48We are providing the funding in so that that

5:30:52Gives us the opportunity to be satisfied so that we can then also

5:30:56Provide you our response back when it comes back at the end of the year

5:31:02Okay, um, thank you. So three america three just so that i'm crystal clear

5:31:05Will the city then also say you can have this money for the feasibility study?

5:31:09But we want a reporting back on these five things so that

5:31:12So that we get the information and the clarity that we want for a decision going forward

5:31:18So through the mayor to councillor roark. Yes

5:31:20So the to the satisfaction of has a lot of nuances and that is part of what that means to me

5:31:26Um, I do also want to just perhaps flag

5:31:30Um to the mayor and the mover um the version of the motion that was on screen does not

5:31:36Contain that end clause about the public reporting

5:31:39And so you might want to just catch that

5:31:42Yep, and also just the funding amount

5:31:45There were two different versions that staff reviewed for you

5:31:49And so we just wanted to flag that if you were looking for that public reporting that last sentence is not showing in the motion

5:31:55No, I actually before you saw it

5:31:58Deputy co-cluck bush, you can see I made I made my own changes. It says which must be completed and made public

5:32:05Later than December 31st 24th. I think instead of having a separate sentence. I just I just edited it so it's all rolled into one

5:32:13Okay, all right, perfect. Yeah, so I did catch the public apart. Sorry back councillor roark. Your answers are good

5:32:19Okay, does anyone else have questions on this before we move forward?

5:32:24Okay, um with that, um, I'll call the vote then on that. Uh, is anyone against?

5:32:30That's nobody. Okay. Thank you very oh two two against sorry

5:32:35Gibson and billings. Sorry about that. Okay, that passes

5:32:39Okay, um