City Clerk be directed to draft a Lobbyist Registry By-law and Lobbyist Registry Code of Conduct…

2:09So we are here for the lobbyist registry under 4.1.

2:12We're going to kick off with a presentation from our clerk.

2:16And then we'll open it up from there.

2:19Okay.

2:20Thank you, Chair Guthrie, Mr. Mayor, and to committee.

2:24I'm going to, if committee will indulge me, I'll stay put here for this.

2:28I will be brief, and that's my rationale for staying put here.

2:32I won't go into great detail the report that's before you outlines the fundamentals of the

2:36program.

2:37Committee will know that the lobbyist registry role is a component of the accountability and

2:40transparency regime under the Municipal Act.

2:43Under this regime, except for our friends in Toronto, where they have requirements to

2:48have all of the integrity officers, accountability officers in place, the Municipal Act provides

2:55some optional appointments of accountability and transparency officers.

2:59So outside from the integrity commissioner and your closed meeting investigator, which

3:02are required, the lobbyist registrar is one of those optional accountability and transparency

3:08positions that is brought in place to enable to support and enforce a lobbyist registry

3:17by-law.

3:18We reported in 2019 on the potential of a lobbyist registry being implemented.

3:22At that time, the implementation of such registries were limited to sort of larger municipalities

3:27in the sector, but since that time, more councils have implemented lobbyist registry programs.

3:33And as we've noted in the report, a registry is not necessarily intended to prohibit,

3:37minimize or reduce the effectiveness of lobbying.

3:42It places no limits on the amount or type of lobbying that can take place.

3:45Rather, it's really simply intended to provide clarity and transparency around who lobbies

3:50public office holders and when such lobbying incurs.

3:54In contemplating the program and design of this program, staff will look to work to strike

3:59a balance that respects, you know, the not looking to add an additional layer of complexity

4:06or undue process when there's no financial or business interest on the part of the lobbyist.

4:11Our goal here is to again offer a program and a design of a program that allows relative

4:17ease of access, relative use of the program for those that seek to lobby public office

4:22holders.

4:23Obviously, ease of use from the public perspective is paramount for us as well, but we're not

4:28looking to add a high degree of complexity or undue process.

4:32And in closing, I'll simply note that this is just again one step along the way to this

4:35program becoming fully implemented.

4:37We'll obviously be back with council at the end of this month.

4:40And we also will pending your direction today.

4:42We'll be back in July with the draft bylaw so that council at that time can further fine

4:47tune or ask further questions if you have any.

4:50So I'll leave it at that chair Guthrie, Mr. Mayor, and turn it back to you and the committee.

4:56Great.

4:57Thank you.

4:58Is there anyone that wants to move this for consideration?

5:01Okay.

5:02We'll go with Alton and O'Rourke as seconding.

5:05And then is there any questions, maybe just to the presentation to Stephen?

5:11Alt?

5:12Thank you, Mayor Guthrie.

5:14More of a rhetorical question, but a request that we consider whether we should also include

5:21nonprofit and community groups and individuals who don't necessarily have a monetary interest,

5:29but nonetheless can potentially have an impact on city programs and facilities.

5:38So as it stands right now, the bylaw is obviously not before you.

5:43We would have to build out the definitions of who would be required to file a registration

5:49or a registry should they be lobbying.

5:54The intention for us is to define lobbying as communication with a public office holder

5:58by an individual who is paid or represents financial or business interests.

6:04A not-for-profit organization can sometimes be a tricky challenge there.

6:08And I think that's acknowledged.

6:09Again, Councillor Allt, you know, it's sort of a rhetorical aspect to your question.

6:15You know, a not-for-profit organization that might be advocating, I'll just use an example,

6:19more bike lanes, might not qualify as a lobbyist under the bylaw because the organization has

6:25no financial or business interest.

6:28There is a cost office to the city to build bike lanes, but not necessarily any financial

6:34gain for the not-for-profit.

6:36That could be distinct and different from some not-for-profits that may lobby for, for

6:41example, trails.

6:42If I use that as an example, I'm picking purely random aspects here.

6:48If a trail organization was seeking a grant from the city to help fund some form of development

6:53and they were engaging with members of council to sort of impact a policy decision or a direction

6:58or an outcome of council, then that could be construed as lobbying.

7:01So there is some aspects in there that will need to be flushed out in greater detail when

7:06we bring that bylaw back.

7:07But those are sort of two examples where there really does need to be a demonstration of

7:12financial gain.

7:14Not-for-profits can have gain if they're the organizations that may be subject to receiving

7:19grant funding or something to that effect.

7:21So I'll leave it at that.

7:22It is a bit vague, but we will attempt to strike a balance there for council.

7:27And again, that will come back in the July report.

7:29And thank you for that.

7:30I entirely understand that.

7:33Just if it's takeaway for you, but I was talking to Mr. Evan Ferrari yesterday from

7:38Emerge who really did believe that his group should be included in a lobbyist registry

7:44despite their status as a non-profit.

7:47And I thought that was actually really quite altruistic of him and wondered whether that

7:52would carry forward to others.

7:53I'll leave it with you.

7:56Thanks, Councillor Roark.

7:57Thank you, Margot, through you too, Mr. O'Brien.

8:01So I have been both a provincially registered lobbyist and a federally registered lobbyist.

8:08And in both those cases, that would lobby government for relationship building, for a future policy

8:16consideration, you do have to register.

8:18So anybody who, and there's a percentage of your time allocated to that, but any of those

8:23government communications do have to be captured.

8:26And from a transparency perspective, would the city not benefit from having that same

8:33type of clarity?

8:34So it doesn't have to be onerous.

8:37But so, for example, I worked with the Canadian Index of Well-Being.

8:40They wanted the federal government to apply a well-being lens to its policies with its

8:45eight dimensions.

8:46So there was no direct pecuniary interest for the Canadian Index of Well-Being in that

8:51case.

8:52So it was a policy approach, but they had the same level of transparency as large oil

8:57and gas or large multinationals seeking policy changes.

9:01So there's nothing bad in terms of government relations.

9:05Law-being is a term that people kind of bendy about with a negative connotation.

9:09But any organization, nonprofit or private, can say, you know what, we know that when

9:14you created this policy, you had a policy outcome in mind.

9:18And this doesn't quite work for us for whatever reason, or it could be tweaked this way.

9:22So will the clerk's office consider the inclusion of those nonprofits just for greater transparency

9:29in terms of, you know, why did that priority list end up the way it was?

9:34And who is consulting with government just for the sake of transparency?

9:39Will you take that under consideration?

9:41Yeah.

9:42And through you, Chair Guthrie, Mayor Guthrie, to Councillor O'Rourke, by your questioning

9:47and also Councillor O'Rourke's questioning, it's certainly something we can report back.

9:52We can perhaps offer a little bit of additional context and text in the staff report that

9:56comes back in July with a bit more detail.

9:58Ultimately, the decision will be up to council about how we define lobbying.

10:02Is non-for-profit included in that or not?

10:04Are there thresholds?

10:05And you and I had a conversation offline about sort of materiality of aspects.

10:09So leave it with us.

10:11We'll certainly include an explicit component of that staff report that speaks to nonprofit.

10:16We'll make a recommendation either way.

10:18Again, we're still in the process of investigating what other municipalities have done, but we'll

10:21make a recommendation to committee in July.

10:24And if it's the wish of committee to sort of deviate or change the staff recommendation,

10:29that's perfectly fine and obviously within council purview.

10:31So we can certainly take it back.

10:33Great.

10:34Thanks.

10:35I'll have a comment later.

10:36You just, you can have your comment now if you want.

10:38Sure.

10:39So through you, Mayor Guthrie, that my comment is having been registered both potentially

10:44and federally.

10:45I initially in 2018 didn't think there would be a real need for Guelph to have a lobbyist

10:50registry because it makes those two registries make no real difference between a small nonprofit

10:57or a large multinational.

10:59And so all it does is create a list basically of who's talking to whom and on what topics.

11:05I've really changed my perspective given strong mayor's powers.

11:08I've said it many times, my concern is not with Mayor Guthrie, but with now strong mayor's

11:12legislation that allows a mayor to bring forward a bylaw and pass it with a third of council

11:17or to veto or to make, you know, present their own budget.

11:22I think we need some more transparency in the background in terms of who is speaking to

11:27elected officials and we should be held to that same standard.

11:30Yep.

11:33So I'm just going to go to Guller and then to Busatil and then to Gibson.

11:42And that looks like that's it.

11:45Thank you, through your worship to staff.

11:48Thank you for preparing this report.

11:51Something I did not see is the question of the voting record at council.

11:57Oftentimes when I have to find the way that myself or other colleagues voted, I have to

12:04Google and figure out what meeting that was at and then I have to go search that and then

12:09I have to look down and try to figure out where that vote was made and it's not an easy

12:15process.

12:16So I'm wondering, is there a portion of this or a consideration?

12:20If we are concerned about people lobbying, then are we not also concerned about the actual

12:26votes of council members to see how that aligns?

12:30If I could ask how that fits into this process?

12:36Through you, Mayor Guthrie, to Councillor Goller, great question.

12:39The voting record is not something that's contemplated in this by-law or that would come forward.

12:44It wouldn't have any material effect or change on how voting records are recorded for council.

12:51What's interesting is council and so the aggregation of vote totals is still remains and the formal

12:58record of that is in the minutes of committee or council.

13:02Every pandemic we would vote by voting system.

13:06That voting system would display on screen, however, the data that came from that was

13:12not what I'll use the term as it was not machine readable.

13:15It wasn't easily disseminated.

13:16It wasn't something we would put in, for example, an open data set to be used and resourced

13:22by those in the community that might want to avail themselves of that information.

13:24The minutes remain the true record of council's decisions.

13:29As council is well aware and committee is aware, we've moved to anybody opposed, all

13:36in favour and the motion is then deemed carried by the chair.

13:40We still record which members of council voted in favour or not in the minutes, but this

13:46wouldn't change anything to do with how that data would be more readable from a system

13:54standpoint.

13:56My question is how useful is having a registry of lobbying if it's then not easy for the

14:06public to figure out how members of council actually voted?

14:11Just in terms of the transparency, there is a room for this to actually also look into

14:15that so that if I go down the registry and I see that I was lobbied by say, Emerge 12

14:21because they wanted more bicycle lanes or something along those lines, but then the public cannot

14:27see whether I voted in support or against those things.

14:30I'm just wondering, we were moving ahead with a record of lobbying, but where is the easy

14:38to find record of how people actually cast their votes?

14:42Is that something that could be considered for June as part of this report?

14:48Chair Guthrie, it's something that would need some system changes on the back end for

14:52the system.

14:53Our current in meeting system we use today with eScribe does permit the recording of

14:59votes, but it is, it would certainly slow the meeting process down and we've always

15:04talked about the efficiency and effectiveness of these council meetings.

15:07Not to say that voting and displaying those votes would be a detriment to that, but the

15:13reality is it would take a degree of training on the part of council to sort of make sure

15:18that your devices are supported and you're ready to be able to offer those votes using

15:22the system.

15:25The linkage and the correlation to this policy and this bylaw, the lobbying bylaw is really

15:30the intent is simply just to share in a public form in a registration and a list who has

15:36lobbied elected members of office and public office holders and that's the extent of the

15:41bylaw.

15:42So that's the whole intent and goal of the bylaw and a registry program is to do just

15:46that.

15:47It would be then incumbent to your point, Councillor Gault, or for members of the community to

15:50say, oh, I've seen that a member of council or a member of senior staff has been lobbied

15:54in X-Way.

15:56I will watch to see the outcome of that if a matter comes before council that is related

16:01to the person that was lobbying the office holder.

16:04But really this is about a public representation and a listing of those that engage with elected

16:11officials and senior city staff, public office holders at large in lobbying efforts and presenting

16:17that in a public format that is viewable for all in the community and beyond.

16:22Okay.

16:23Okay.

16:24Thank you for that explanation.

16:26I still think that the other part is missing for full transparency and I will ask about

16:33that again in June and I'll follow up.

16:36Thank you.

16:39Did you want to have any comments at all at this time?

16:42No, you're good.

16:43Okay.

16:44So, Bousatil and then Gibson and then I have comments.

16:47Let's start.

16:48Thank you.

16:49Thank you to the staff for this, for the start of this process.

16:53I know as a new councillor, sometimes I'm very unclear about is this lobbying?

16:58Is this just asking for information?

17:00In reading this, the piece that I saw missing is very similar to what Councillor Allt and

17:07O'Rourke raised is systemic advantage is the word that I wrote down in my notes.

17:15Aside from pecuniary interest, the systemic advantage and it does fall into the not for

17:19profits and the community organizations and the example of the bike lanes and so on because

17:25it means one interest over another that translates into operational budget or policy and so on.

17:32And so I'm not going to belabor the point but that is that equity lens that I didn't

17:36see in this.

17:37And so my question for staff is that in developing this, are they aware of any other municipalities

17:44that have taken that equity lens systemically to this process because there are interests

17:53that are not being heard because they don't have the capacity to come to the table, to

18:00the grown up table, let's just say.

18:02So that is a question that I had about this.

18:08Thank you, Councillor Busuttil and through you, Chair Guthrie.

18:11Something we can certainly take away, you know, our approach quite frankly with all aspects

18:15and all development of policies and programs and by-laws, et cetera, across the city and

18:20I know that my colleagues on the executive team would echo that is we have come a long

18:24way in terms of applying a diversity, equity and inclusion lens.

18:29It's something that is part and parcel with what we do when we implement or contemplate

18:35the design of new programs or services and so this is no different.

18:39We will certainly take the commentary, Councillor Busuttil, and consider that as well.

18:44We do have the need to again evaluate this through that diversity and equity inclusion

18:48lens with our colleagues in the office of the CAO and so we'll look to do that as we

18:52continue to move forward and put finalization and final touches on this as it makes its

18:58way to the July cycle.

19:01Thank you and I guess, you know, it's that systemic advantage that is what I'm speaking about.

19:08Thank you very much.

19:11I like that terminology, Councillor Busuttil.

19:13I wrote that down.

19:15I'll remember that one.

19:17Again, Gibson is my last.

19:19Go ahead, Gibson.

19:21And then Billings.

19:22Sorry, then Billings, I see.

19:23Mayor Guthrie, I'll primarily comments but I think it comes out as a form of question.

19:28It's related back to the just the governing or the tracking of meetings and I think that's

19:35really what it comes down to.

19:36I get lobbied.

19:38I do lobby at the federal level as well and it really is we really do need to track

19:45meetings.

19:45I've said this for many years.

19:46I think far too much of city business takes place at the Albion and other coffee shops downtown.

19:52And I think governing, you know, I've heard it on Council before we don't meet with developers

19:56and I think that's fair but I've also there seems to be no governance in what comes to

20:00meeting with nonprofits and other people that are financially gaining from the city

20:04and City Hall with financial contracts.

20:06So my question to staff is I heard the comment, leave it with us.

20:10No offence to staff.

20:11I'm growing increasingly uncomfortable with that term just because I want to make sure

20:14I get my say in early before these policies come forward.

20:18So will there be some governance around nonprofits being listed as lobbyists

20:26and then tracking of meetings with Council members stemming from the lobbyist registry?

20:33Through you, Chair Guthrie to Councillor Gibson.

20:36Yes, the answer is yes, but I also respect what you've said.

20:39If you'd like to have a form of emotion, we're certainly willing to to receive that.

20:43Obviously, we're happy to receive that and have obviously I believe that the committee is

20:48it's it's your will whether to table that or not.

20:52But what I can commit to is is I've heard from from yourself,

20:55Councillor O'Rourke and Councillor Allt just in this discussion here about the importance of

21:01further investigating the concept of non-profits, not for profits, and how they

21:06dovetail into this into this policy and this bylaw.

21:09We will take that away.

21:10We will evaluate that.

21:11We'll determine what other municipalities have done.

21:13We will bring some form of a recommendation on a report in July to that effect, whether it to be

21:19to add, you know, sort of rigorous and specific language in that regard,

21:23or if it's if it's deemed to be not a common practice in other municipalities for good reason

21:28and good rationale, we'll also offer that as well.

21:30So I can commit to that.

21:32One thing I did want to also add, pardon me, is add because your comment was sort of the

21:36process around meetings and supporting those meetings and documenting those meetings.

21:41We've thought long and hard about tools and resources that we can provide to members of

21:44council and senior public office holders, senior staff, that you could say,

21:49hey, I'm in a meeting and it feels like it's lobbying.

21:52It's incumbent on the lobbyist to record that.

21:56So we can offer, for example, quick handout cards with a QR code that would take them to that

22:01registry so that they could access that and avail themselves.

22:03So we would we're contemplating all of those tools and resources that we think will make this again.

22:10Our goal here is to make this as frictionless as possible, while still allowing for that good,

22:19open and accountable and transparent viewing of the registry.

22:22So we'll contemplate that.

22:23We'll bring you some notions back and ideas in that regard in July.

22:28Again, up to you, whether you'd like to table a motion, I will commit verbally as much as that's

22:33worth for committee.

22:34Yeah, no, that's fine.

22:34We'll have some commentary on that in the July report.

22:37Yeah, I guess I'll leave it with an example as a comment.

22:40So the optics of council members meeting with a developer with a proposal coming before council

22:45for sort of a site plan amendment or an official plan amendment.

22:49The optics don't look good and those those meetings should be tracked.

22:53I completely accept that.

22:54But the other obvious one that kind of doesn't have the same label, but is the exact same,

22:58is coming down the coming down the track on a budget night and community benefit agreements

23:03are being negotiated, talked nonprofits come forward with big asks and, you know,

23:09nine out of 12 council members have met individually, privately with that with that

23:14nonprofit to discuss the request and the public isn't aware.

23:18So those are things that I think are the same and optically should be observed the same way.

23:24And I welcome that kind of transparency on council.

23:27So I thank you very much for hearing me out.

23:30And again, the leave it with me comment is fine.

23:33I just want to make sure I get my my my comments in before it goes away.

23:37Thank you.

23:39Thank you.

23:39And then it looks like Billings had a question.

23:42And then I'll go to

23:46Kate and for comments and alt as well.

23:51Through you, Your Worship, I just wanted to ask because it doesn't seem like there's been any

23:55public engagement or consultation with those that will be affected by this.

23:59So I was just wondering from now until the time you bring back the bylaw,

24:03will there be any engagement public engagement?

24:08Thank you, Council Billings.

24:10Good question.

24:10And through you, Chair Guthrie, we've actually already had

24:13conversations loosely and we will continue to have them in a more formal regard.

24:19I'll use the example that I had a conversation with the Chamber of Commerce about this.

24:24And obviously they've got some questions about this process and this bylaw

24:28as it relates to their members.

24:30And so we'll continue to have conversations with it won't be sort of full, broad based

24:36community engagement in the same way that you'd see for large infrastructure projects that,

24:41span across the city, but we will be doing what I will call targeted engagement with those that

24:46might be impacted this, predominantly from an awareness and an education standpoint,

24:50so that they understand what their obligations would be under this new program.

24:55Okay. And also, under key finding, it's the registry is a useful tool for promoting transparency

25:01in local government. However, what you're proposing here today is only one narrow slice of the pie.

25:11So, for example, when we get lobbied, when there's a massive lobbying campaign,

25:16so we could receive 100 or more emails with respect to a topic,

25:24to me, I don't think that seemingly is captured in what you're proposing here. Am I correct?

25:32Through you, Chair Guthrie to Councillor Billings,

25:35you're probably quite right that emails from your constituents on a contentious matter,

25:41a topic wouldn't be considered lobbying. That's the relationship that members of

25:47Council have with their constituents to be able to sort of input and understand

25:51local impacts of programs and services. That wouldn't change. Now, if there were subsets of

25:56your constituent base that stood to, at least as we've contemplated now, again, I've heard loud

26:02and clear about the commentary around non-profit, but at least as we've presented in this report,

26:07if those constituents were potentially to receive financial gain from their engagement with you,

26:13then that would be considered lobbying. So, there is going to need to be a degree of public awareness,

26:19public education that we absolutely do plan on initiating pending Council's adoption of this.

26:26We're also planning, as you've seen in the report, we would plan a staged sort of launch of this.

26:31So, adoption of a by-law in June, that would give us time over the course of a month or so and into

26:36the early fall to create awareness about the program. The program would actually come into

26:41effect, we're proposing September 1, but enforcement of the program wouldn't begin until January. So,

26:47we would have the ability to continue to create awareness, educate those that might be subject

26:53to the by-law on the program, and make sure that there's good community awareness about this.

26:58Okay. And then I just want clarity on one issue. It's the communication by a resident

27:05on a general neighborhood or a policy issue. Say it's a development application, and so

27:12the constituent lives beside the proposed development. And they do feel that there is

27:18a financial interest because they believe their property value would decline. So, my question is,

27:24then, do they have to register because there is that financial interest?

27:32Through Chair Guthrie, in that example you've provided, no. The answer would be no in that case.

27:37It would require that individual that lives next door to that development to be

27:42financially gaining from the development itself, i.e., revenue generated or income generated from

27:49that development or some form of financial gain from that development. It does beg the question,

27:55and I think you've hit on the notion that actually, quite frankly, exists for members of council under

28:00the conflict of interest legislation. There is direct and indirect pecuniary interest, where some

28:05of those things could come to bear. In our evaluation of lobbyist registries across the province as

28:10they exist now, the example you provide would not constitute lobbying. But again, this is something

28:16that we can continue to work through. There's broad permissive space in the Municipal Act for

28:20councils to define lobbying within their bylaws. And so, we see the definition of lobbying

28:28vary somewhat, although there is some good consistency across the province. There is some

28:32variation in how different municipalities have defined lobbying. So, there would be the ability,

28:37again, back to the non-profit commentary we've had. There would be the ability for council to sort of

28:42offer some nuance language around what is lobbying, what constitutes lobbying, who constitutes a lobbyist.

28:50And defining more the term, quote, general, I think would be helpful.

28:58The other question I had through you, Mr. Mayor, is, okay, because of the extension of the strong

29:03mayor powers, have you seen other municipalities looking at a registry, but it's just for the

29:11mayor's position because they're the ones with the power so that you would have to register if

29:19you're lobbying the mayor? Through you, Mayor Guthrie, to councillor Billings, that's a great

29:27question. And I have sort of backtracking what I just said. There's broad permissive space in the

29:32Act to define many aspects. The Act does define what a public office holder is. And so, it is

29:38expansive beyond simply just the head of council. So, it does talk about a member of municipal

29:44council or any person, if there was this case, a staff person of a member of council. It talks

29:50about an officer, an employee of the organization. We've, in consultation with the executive team,

29:55we've felt that it was important to sort of include senior staff groups in this approach as well,

30:01especially those that have significant delegated authority from council. It includes members of

30:05a local board of the municipality. And so, it extends beyond council as well. But to answer

30:12your question, Councillor Billings, we're not permitted, because of the definition of the Act,

30:16of a public office holder, to narrow it down simply to just the head of council.

30:20Okay. Thank you for your help, Steen.

30:27Great. Councillor, Kate, and I know you, I was going to kick you off with comments, but do you,

30:33do you mind if I just ask one quick question then, and then the questions are done, and then I'll go

30:37to you? Okay. Thank you. So, I just want to be clear on one aspect. What if there, what if there

30:45isn't, what if the individual or group is not there to actually gain anything financial,

30:54but actually to stop something? So, the, what I'm trying to give as an example would be

31:01a neighborhood group that exists to stop a supportive housing project. So, they register as

31:08like a corporation, an actual neighborhood group corporation, and they gather everyone together,

31:13and they, they are now an entity, and they are trying to stop something. So, there's no actual

31:21financial gain for them, but they are legitimately working us all to not have something built,

31:28as an example, affordable housing or supportive housing. With that, there's nothing to gain

31:34financially for them other than they just want to have homes not built. To you, Chair, that's a

31:42good question. Really, the lobbyist registry and the concept of a lobbyist registry as it's,

31:50as it's contemplated in the act hinges upon financial gain and financial interest, but it's

31:55a good comment, and it's something that we can certainly contemplate again as we come back in,

31:59in July. My, my, my sentiments at this point in time, again, without having sort of taking a

32:07deeper dive into that specific kind of an example, would be that it would not apply because it doesn't

32:11appear there's a direct financial interest or financial gain, but it's something we can certainly

32:16research. Yeah, so I recognize the quandary a little bit of that, but it's kind of like an

32:22opposite, an opposite lobbying. There is no gain, there is no financial gain, but their, but their

32:29mandate is to not have, I'm just giving an example, not have supportive housing built in their

32:35neighborhood, and they become a structured neighborhood group entity to try to, to try to

32:39actually stop something. So they're, it's not individual citizens. I think that that's different.

32:43I'm definitely making that different. Okay, thank you. I know that's a takeaway, so you'll take

32:47that away. Yeah, we, we have that ability again to define lobbying. That's very clear,

32:52something that council has the ability to define in the bylaw what lobbying is, and so we can get

32:57a degree of granularity back for, for council and committee in July. That would be good.

33:03Just before I go to Councillor Caton, I think I've triggered a Councillor Downer just to have a

33:09follow-up on that question. So I'll go to you and then I'll go to Councillor Caton. Okay, yeah, so

33:12just in that question, wouldn't that be under an application though, because I like a planning

33:17application that they're opposed to development in their neighborhood. So my understanding is from

33:23what you've said is that if somebody, if people are responding to an application in the, under a

33:31planning process, they wouldn't be considered lobbyists. Through you, Chair Guthrie to Councillor

33:36Downer, yet that's absolutely accurate. So without, without knowing the specifics of what Mayor

33:40Guthrie was contemplating, where there's an application and a process through a planning

33:45act process, an application, then that wouldn't be considered lobbying. But if there was just a

33:51general interest to voice, you know, opposition to some aspect, that's where we would be looking

33:58to the financial component. So where there's a planning application, where they've been formally

34:02involved in that process, it would not constitute lobbying. They would be able to delegate to

34:06council, for example, when that landed and present their opinions on, on, on a, on an official plan

34:11amendment or a zoning bylaw amendment or something to that effect. But if it was just generic in the

34:17space of or writ large, not site specific, that's I think what Mayor Guthrie was getting at. And

34:23we would have to offer some additional commentary in that regard. Okay, thank you so much,

34:29Councillor Caitlin. So for comments, I have Councillor Caitlin and Councillor Allt.

34:35Thank you. Through you, Mr. Mayor, I really liked the idea of this lobby in the registry,

34:41the registry of the lobbyists, because I think that transparency is very important.

34:46As I think it's an opportunity to potentially streamline administration of meeting requests

34:51via technology, like perhaps some sort of doodle poll or similar, because often we have

34:58developers who have things before the OLT and it would be nice to have

35:03extra steps in between the process of meeting requests and meetings to know

35:08any of the flags that are going to occur in that meeting. Also, I liked Councillor Goller's idea

35:14of vote tracking, but it feels more like an accessibility systems feature to me,

35:20which is separate than a registry for a lobbyist. But I also see a value in pairing those initiatives

35:25for full transparency in the future. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Allt, please.

35:31Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie. Just concluding comments. I really do urge Council to pass this

35:37recommendation or report unanimously. I want to be very, very clear that I think that we need to

35:44be careful not to conflate the issue of strong mayors with the need for a lobbyist registry.

35:51The lobbyist registry, according to the Canadian Bar Association, covers not only mayors, but covers

35:57every member of Council and also officers and employees of the city. Anybody can be lobbied,

36:04and I'm sure that that has happened. In what the CBA has stated, they've identified Brampton as having

36:09a very comprehensive lobbyist registry. I don't know how great that is, but they very clearly

36:16identify they're a consultant lobbyist, in-house lobbyist, voluntary, unpaid lobbyist. There are

36:21certainly going to be people and individuals that will fall through the cracks. But remember that

36:27lobbyists can come in all shapes and sizes, and whether they are members of the water watchers

36:32concerned about our water table or their perhaps billion-dollar-a-year developers, they might have

36:37a purpose in what they are doing that is somewhat pecuniary. While this might be a big net and while

36:46it might cause problems for some of the small fish, metaphorically speaking, I think the issue of

36:52transparency is absolutely essential. And as wealth is growing very, very quickly and is no longer

36:58cosmopolitan countryside, but is more part of the greater Toronto area, we need to be very clear

37:05that there are many people that have sights on what we are doing here. Go ahead, Councillor O'Rourke.

37:13Thanks, Mayor Guthrie, through you to you. I think it's also important to be sure that a lobbyist

37:21registry or government relations tracking doesn't put a chill on communication with government.

37:27In fact, it's healthy for people to be able to speak with staff or to find out more or to advocate

37:33on a position. All this does is it allows some more transparency into what happens outside of this

37:40chamber. But government relations or lobbying is just a form of communication where we are a public.

37:47So I want to continue to encourage people, right, that if they have advocacy on a piece of legislation

37:54or a policy issue that we're contemplating, that it remains important for them to come forward

38:00with their concerns, with improvements on bylaws, with positions on the city,

38:04because that's the mix of democracy. But you want to encourage, we're just trying to add

38:09additional transparency. Councillor Chew. Through you, Mr. Mayor. Like I agree with everybody here.

38:20I think transparency is great if that's the design of this. But I do have a concern of this being a

38:27barrier to people who want to reach us. We're here also to demystify how City Hall works for people.

38:34I just want to be conscious of that. And this is all new to me as well. So I think maybe just a

38:40suggestion. Perhaps if clarity and take away a quick scan for the July report of

38:46comparative municipalities and just the rationale for why they put forward a lobby registry,

38:55that would be great as well, just from my own understanding. So I don't have to go through

38:59the legal bulletins and do that analysis on my own. Thank you. Okay. Great. Okay. I'll just have

39:10some concluding comments then and then I'll call the vote. So I just want to say the QR code idea

39:18that you had, so the tools that we could maybe be using. That's great. That's the first time I kind

39:22of heard that. So my gut reaction is something like that would be fantastic. It's easy and just

39:28can be done instantly in the moment. That's really good. But as much as there's tools on our end,

39:33I would just, I would encourage you and staff, I'm kind of maybe channeling Councillor Billings a

39:39little bit here, but that if there is now, you promised you to do some engagement with those

39:43that might be, I would say frequent fliers that might have to use this system. So whatever the

39:49tools are that they would need to be using, I think it's important that you get feedback through

39:54that engagement process with them about how this could be implemented. I'm really, we keep hearing

40:03the word transparency and that's the whole reason for this. So dido to that. I don't need to say

40:08anything more. And I appreciated the fact that you recognized through many of my colleagues already

40:14raising it, the rationale for like a memo or inclusion of other nonprofits and other entities

40:20that can be put in. So I feel like there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of heads nodding here

40:27about the inclusion of that. So that's where I was going to go and but everyone beat me to it. So

40:32we're good on that. So dido on that. And then my final comment is, and it's going to pick up a

40:37little bit on what Councillor Oroch just said, is it is important that those, this can be used as a

40:44political hammer. 100% this could be used. We cannot demonize people for doing their job or for

40:52having the passion about whatever the issue is that they want to engage with us on. Okay. We've

41:00not had any issues. I don't expect there to be any issues from any of my colleagues here or myself.

41:07But you know, this, this is going to be good to raise the bar to elevate the transparency. That's

41:12fine. But please know demonizing people for just doing what they are doing, passionate about whatever

41:19subject they want to talk to us about. That is, we should all collectively call it out to because

41:26that's that's not right either. Part of democracy is making it easy to speak to easy for free flow

41:34of opinions on issues. So we want to encourage that. We want to continue to encourage that even

41:41though there might be a 32nd form that someone has to fill out in the moment. So with that,

41:48you know, this was unanimous months ago when we originally asked for this to come back. I have a

41:55feeling and hopefully that this will be unanimous vote to move forward, which sends a signal as well,

41:59by the way. And council knows that I've been in favor of this for quite some time anyway. So

42:04this is good that we're moving forward. So with that, I'll call the vote. Is anyone against?

42:10Nobody unanimous. Good job. Okay.

42:15We will now move to the municipal accommodation tax update and administration policy.

42:23And there's going to be a presentation

42:24from two people, I believe. I'm going to put my glasses on so I can see. So we got Hillary