Staff come back to Council on an annual basis with a report on the permanent patio program.

11:49Well, actually for the whole city, it's not just downtown and we had do have a delegation is O'Brien says by video is Brian.

12:00He's not available online.

12:02Oh, OK.

12:03OK.

12:09Staff will staff will try to get a hold of him then.

12:18So why don't we just jump into the conversation about it because there was that memo that was sent out between committee and now.

12:27Maybe I could have someone look to at least move the motion.

12:32Out right first. OK, goller and class and.

12:36And then let's see if there's any is there any questions.

12:40I know that Councillor O'Rourke has.

12:43Proposed something that she would like to bring forward, but is there any questions?

12:48Did you have one Councillor just just to comment your worship if we could ask the clerks to please put the motion to screen so that.

12:55And the just for everyone's information, if you had looked at the agenda and the main.

13:04I'm going to worship with the screen. Yeah, so I'll read it out that the seasonal patio program as described in the permanent seasonal patio program report.

13:16Data July 5th 2023 be approved pending budget approval as part of the 2024 to 2027 multi year budget.

13:24All right, let me just do a check in before I go to Councillor O'Rourke.

13:28Have we found that delegation available yet? Not yet.

13:31OK, Councillor O'Rourke, would you like to jump in on.

13:35Your position and might want for us to consider.

13:39Thanks, Margot 3.

13:41So in consultation with staff and further to their follow up memo that came, I think it's dated for tonight.

13:49But that was in our package staff have proposed a revised service level that actually makes the patio program revenue neutral.

13:58So we don't have to draw on a municipal accommodation tax.

14:01And really, they're looking at, you know, maybe a $5,000 drop per year through property taxes or other funding.

14:10So I would like to put that amendment on the floor.

14:13And that is the first part of our motion, but it's that the seasonal patio program as described in the permanent seasonal patio program report dated July 5th 2023.

14:23So the first part be amended to reflect a revenue neutral service level with a $10 per square meter per month seasonal patio fee with any additional funding coming from the general tax levy in the case that fees do not fully cover the cost of the program.

14:40Okay, would someone be willing to second that one at this time?

14:45Okay, Richardson will second it. Okay.

14:48Do you want to just give a little bit of commentary about the why.

14:51And then I'll vote a counselor downer for a question.

14:53Sure. Just so you can explain yourself. Yeah.

14:55So the original proposal want had, I believe is $175,000 cost per year.

15:03And that would fully consume almost a quarter of the municipal accommodation tax, which was what was initially proposed.

15:10So in the interim staff have looked at what the service level could be.

15:15There would still be the required permits. There would still be their $10 per square meter, which they had thought was a reasonable amount.

15:24But there's less pressure on either the mat or the tax base to support the seasonal patio program.

15:34So just like our revenue policies talk about what we subsidize.

15:41So we subsidize, you know, kids who can't afford to go to the swimming pool or we have different levels of subsidization.

15:49And here I think I think the goal is usually to have the user fees where appropriate cover as much of that use already the patio program doesn't have a fee for anything on the sidewalk.

16:01It's really only the space that's in the parking spaces.

16:04So there really is a significant amount of public space being allocated for private business. And yes, it's a tourism draw. So there's there's a balance there.

16:13But I do think it should be revenue neutral as much as possible.

16:18Okay, great. I was just told by the clerks as you were explaining your motion that the one delegation is available now.

16:24So let's just pause for a moment. Let's hear from the delegate and then I'll come back to counselor downer if need be.

16:31So our delegation is Brian steel Brian. Are you available?

16:44So Brian, it's Mayor Guthrie and I think to unmute you have to press star six and also turn on your camera as well.

17:05It's good. Try again. Brian, it's it's it's Mayor Guthrie. Can you hear me? Okay.

17:15Okay, I'm going to I'm going to pause. You can try to correct that if you want for another time. I want to come back to counsel.

17:21I know there's a few more questions anyways. So I'll start with questions with counselor downer than over to go.

17:26Yes. So, so just to clarify the original.

17:32It was a recommendation in the report and staff haven't I just want to be clear that staff haven't proposed this suggestion by.

17:42What you put in their memo, it was just in response to a question because I heard counselor or call them both proposals.

17:49One was a recommendation and one was a suggestion of an alternative. Is that clear? Okay. So, and that's fine. I haven't decided yet.

17:56So I just want to make sure that.

18:00How are do staff think that the.

18:04That reducing that kind of server less levels will compromise the patio program at all or is there any concerns around reducing that cost.

18:14My concern is around us approving the 75,000 and then staff are doing all of that extra work anyway.

18:22Like, you know, and it's taking time away from other things. So I don't want to I don't want to short shift the program. That's that's basically it.

18:32So, could you just give me some idea? You've expressed some concerns on an email, but I want to hear it in the open session. Thanks.

18:45Through you chair to counselor downer.

18:49The, the change in service levels associated with the reduced budget would come from, you know, shifting to a part time staff person who would be in charge of admin of the program strictly with no additional space for other destination development

19:08and no programming support necessarily.

19:11However, so in terms of things like inspections, those things would still be maintained as proposed because those are being covered by an additional fee as well.

19:21But what we are considering when we do a service level reduction is we want to stick really closely to those.

19:29Those install and install dates that we have proposed as a part of the of a future program or a permanent program because those firmer dates do reduce overtime impacts and those kinds of things.

19:42So that that is kind of the service level reduction that we're looking at.

19:48So you're comfortable with the 75,000.

19:51Oh, is that what you're saying now?

19:53Through you chair to counselor downer. Yes, we do think we can meet the expectations of businesses. Okay. Perfect. Thank you.

20:04Just to be clear for the mayor.

20:06You do feel that everything would be fine based on what council or work is tabled. That's what you're saying.

20:14Directly to you, Mary. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everyone.

20:18So you have a goler and then closet. Thank you. Your worship to to the movement.

20:25The original staff recommendation was to have an on street rental fee of $10 per square meter per month.

20:33So people who have only on the sidewalk, they would not pay anything people who use sidewalk and street.

20:39the street portion. If I am clear by reading the wording, now every square foot of patio

20:47will be charged a $10 per square meter, $10 per square meter. Is that the difference

20:54between the staff original staff recommendation and this one?

20:58So I'll let staff answer that. Okay.

21:03So I will give a review chair to Councillor Goller. We provided Councillor O'Rourke with

21:10a mis-wording. It would still remain the on-street fee, would be charged at $10 per square meter.

21:17It would not incorporate a charge for the sidewalk fee. So I will work to adjust that

21:23quickly.

21:24Okay. So then if I understand that we are removing the amount that we said that would

21:32come from the mat, but I'm not clear, if we're still going to charge $10 per square

21:36meter on the street and the motion is to charge $10 per square meter on the street, what is

21:41the difference? Thank you.

21:46So through Mayor Guthrie to Councillor Goller, the difference is in the availability of a

21:51staff person after all the inspections, after all the set up. So it's in the potential level

21:56of service afterwards, right? So staff have looked at what that level of service

22:01expectation was going to be and they found ways to trim that back so that the cost of

22:06administering the program comes down, which makes it more revenue neutral. There's still

22:10a user fee strictly for the on-street portion, which is a good deal because you get some

22:15public space thrown in there, but staff to their credit have found a way to do it in

22:22a less expensive way.

22:23Okay. Thank you.

22:25And not using the municipal accommodation tax, which makes it revenue neutral and not

22:29on the mat.

22:31Thank you so much. I really appreciate understanding that. And if I could clarify from staff, based

22:36on what is being moved by in this amendment, with the end user, the business downtown accessing

22:43a patio, would there be any cost difference to them between what was originally proposed

22:47at the committee of the whole meeting and what this amendment is moving?

22:53Through you, Chair to Councillor Goller. No.

22:55Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.

22:59Great. We're going to give our delegation another try. So, Brian, it's Mayor Guthrie.

23:07Can you hear me?

23:09Hey, can you guys hear me?

23:11We can hear you. That's great. Are you wanting to turn on your camera as well, or did you

23:16just want to do audio?

23:19Can you hear me now?

23:21We can hear you. Loud and clear. Thank you, Brian. Did you want to turn on your camera

23:26or just do audio?

23:28I will just do audio. I just got back from work and sweaty as can be.

23:34All right. Sounds good. All right. So, you have up to five minutes if you need it to

23:39give us your take on the seasonal patio program. And as soon as you start talking, I will start

23:45the timer. So, go right ahead.

23:47Got it. Thank you, everybody, for taking the time in council to hear my delegation.

23:54I apologize for my tardiness. I promise to you I will be late for my own funeral.

24:00I'll fire it off with saying that I fullheartedly disagree with the $10 per square meter for the

24:10seasonal patio program.

24:14I want to break down some math for you.

24:18I see that Toronto is charging $49 a square meter.

24:23And Toronto Metro's population is 3 million.

24:28We might want to break this number down, but it's not extremely important.

24:33But if you take the $49 a square meter by Toronto Metro's 3 million population, the cost per

24:42person is 0 decimal, four zeroes, one, six, three, three.

24:49If we take Guelph's population at 150,000 and divide it by the $10, the proposed $10 per square

24:57meter, we get 0.40667.

25:03This translates to Guelph charging 4.08 times more than Toronto.

25:10So we are valuing our street space at four times more than Toronto.

25:18Another stat here is that Toronto's population density is 4,149.5 per square meter.

25:29Guelph is a mere 287 people per square meter.

25:37You can walk out your door in Toronto and pick any number of institutions.

25:42Your bar has an opportunity to pull in 4,200 people.

25:47Guelph in our downtown corridor, we have 287.

25:52Lorena serves.

25:53I would underestimate saying 550 people on a Friday evening.

26:02So we are pulling people from the far reaches of Guelph, if not other cities, based on our population density.

26:13I would also like to take a minute to talk about the narrative that bars and restaurants are making money hand over fist with patio season.

26:26Our labor cost generally runs around 35%.

26:31Our food cost runs around 35%.

26:33Our rent is 10%.

26:36Gas and hydro come in around 3% and operating cost repairs.

26:40Anything to make the patio run comes in around 10%.

26:47Our profit margin is maybe four cents on every dollar.

26:53It doesn't matter that there's more, sure that our revenue goes up slightly, but four cents on a dollar for a restaurant.

26:59We are not, I assure you, making money hand over fist.

27:05We are creating, Lorena is creating a destination for the city.

27:14For the city and with the $10 per square meter.

27:19I don't think Lorena, I know Lorena will not be putting on our patio.

27:27I think that $3 a square meter, a 500% increase over the $3 per square meter yearly would go $3 per square meter monthly is still a 500% increase. I think that is more than fair.

27:39I also have signed document from Charles Nash at Frankenstein's Bob DeHue, who represents Party Town, Western Trappers and McCabe's, as well as Justin Corsor from Jimmy Jazz and Royal.

27:55And I would happily forward these documents along.

28:00And Cole's notes with the proposed patio fee of $10 per square meter.

28:05Royal Electric Jimmy Jazz will be unable to afford to put out their patio.

28:10This is a difficult decision to make considering that the patio program draws so many people to downtown.

28:17We hope that the patio representatives and City Council find a way to adjust this rate because we simply cannot afford $10 per square meter.

28:25That is all I have for you guys.

28:32Okay, Brian, thank you. Yep, I appreciate you joining us and giving us your thoughts. Let me see if there's a follow up.

28:38And there's one follow up here from Councillor Boosentill.

28:42Thank you very much for your presentation. Just a question about the labour costs. I'm curious whether or not your labour costs you hire additional labour during the patio season. So you double your labour or is it just a transfer of patrons and staff from inside to outside?

29:01It is a transfer.

29:03All restaurants operate around about a 30 to 35%. We would love to be at 30%.

29:08That extra 5%, just I think we get because we, Lorena specifically, really goes for a quality of service and tries to make sure that people feel welcome when they're on our patio and in Guelph in general.

29:24Thank you.

29:26Thank you, Brian. Seeing no other follow up questions, have a good night. Thank you.

29:31Thank you, take care.

29:32Okay, so it is back to us and I just want to go to Deputy CAO Holmes for a moment to give some commentary and then after that to Councillor Keaton.

29:42Thank you through you, Mr. Mayor. So just to put a fine point, Councillor Goller on your question in regards to what the difference is.

29:51There is a reduced level of service with the amendment that's on the agenda.

29:56Because we do have a part-time person there instead of a full-time person. So the set up will all be the same. The take down would all be the same.

30:04But the ability in between to respond to customer inquiries to take care of some issues.

30:12The service level there, of course, would be reduced because we only have somebody part-time. So I just wanted to put a fine point on what the difference of the service level would be.

30:21What would the staff had originally recommended and what's on the floor right now.

30:26Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. So, Councillor Keaton and Gibson.

30:37Sorry, I was having mute issues. Through you, Mr. Mayor, to staff.

30:54It seems, and I've gotten this feedback from a couple of restaurants, that it's the jump from the three to the 10 that seem to be the same.

31:02The three to the 10 that seems to be a lot to digest. And I was just wondering what the impact on the mat would be if we did a two-year staggered increase on the proposal that Councillor O'Rourke is making.

31:24Through you, Mayor, to Councillor Keaton. So if we were to phase in over two years and maintain that $10 per square meter per month,

31:34we would be looking closer to 750, let's say, for that first year. And we would probably need to draw, just, sorry, just doing some quick math here.

31:51We would probably have to draw $20,000 from the municipal accommodation tax or another revenue source if we introduced at 750 for that first year.

32:02And then that second year would come back up to that 10 and we would be looking at about, you know, $5,000. Thank you.

32:13And Councillor Gibson. Thank you. Through you, Mr. Mayor, just a question to staff. I'm sorry I didn't offer this in advance, but I'm aware of a few other patios.

32:24Maybe they were older before the patio program came in that it actually had encroachment agreements.

32:29I'm thinking of a restaurant along York Road. Can you help me draw a comparison in terms of the cost to a typical encroachment agreement for a business or a restaurant and then what is being proposed here, $10 per square meter?

32:43Is there a cost comparison that you could provide? I know I'm asking on a short notice.

32:48Through you, Mayor, to Councillor Gibson, we would have to come back with that information.

33:00Okay, so just I guess my follow-up through Mr. Mayor, a standard encroachment agreement isn't set based on the square meters of the encroachment into a city property. Is it set a different way?

33:15Through you, Mayor, to Councillor Gibson, it is not based on square meters. No.

33:24Okay, I'm just thinking out loud here. A 30 by 30 patio in the downtown at $10 a square meter, I guess that would be 90 square meters. No, that would be more. I'm trying to do some math on what a typical 30 by 30.

33:43I guess 30 foot by 30 foot is 10 meters by 10 meters, so 100 square meters at $10 a square meter is $1,000 a month. Does that math make sense?

33:55Through you, Chair, to Councillor Gibson, can you please repeat the number?

34:09Yeah, I'm just thinking about a 30 foot by 30 foot, a modest patio. So that's about a 10 meter by 10 meter patio, about 100 square meters.

34:19What would be the price tag on that per month would be on 100 square meters? I'm assuming that would be $1,000 a month?

34:37No, sorry. Through you, Chair, to Councillor Gibson, the consideration of a built patio on private land would be at presumably the cost of the commercial value of that land.

34:51So we are proposing a program that installs patios onto on street space.

35:00And so that has been balanced against commercial, like we have looked at commercial rates for the average retail space and applied that to the rental fee to help cover the cost of the program.

35:13I guess I'm just asking what would be the cost burden for a patio now with this motion on the table, a patio moving forward?

35:21What would be the cost burden per month for a 100 square meter patio?

35:27What is the new cost burden on a typical business per month? I thought I'd done the math to about $1,000 a month for a permit. I'd like to just confirm that.

35:38Through you, Chair, to Councillor Gibson, we're just going through our notes here because we had some examples of patios and sizes and their related costs with the original report. So we're just trying to find that information.

36:03And yes, and patios on sidewalk do have an encroachment agreement and those fees are stipulated and approved through the user fee bylaw.

36:13Along with other fees related to those, those realty fees.

36:18Maybe I'll ask my question a different way.

36:24We're moving a motion here just putting a cost burden back onto the business owners.

36:29Can I ask what a typical cost would be a new cost burden for that business owner? What is the realization of this motion on a typical patio?

36:39Can a new business expect another $700 a month? The eye-counter assessment? Like what is, is there a range of cost? I'm just trying to understand where Lorraine is coming from.

36:51Through you, Chair, to Councillor Gibson, the average cost for an average-sized patio, so the example that we gave was 60 square meters. That's about the average size of a patio currently active.

37:06Would be about $600 per month or $3,000 for the season?

37:12Right. I think that was a long way to get in there, but I got my answer. Thank you. So if someone had a 30 foot by 30 foot patio, 100 square meters, you're talking about $1,000 a month of cost for the permitting. I appreciate it. Thank you.

37:26Okay, thank you. Is there, I think we just have a little bit of wording correction that Councillor O'Rourke just wants to make sure we're all aware of.

37:43Thanks, Mayor Guthrie. So just to Councillor Gibson's last comment, the $10 isn't new in this motion. It was $10 in the staff report at the beginning of the month. So the motion doesn't do anything to change the cost.

37:56All the motion does is it makes the program revenue neutral and also any variance in terms of the cost of administrating the program is not on the municipal accommodation tax, but would be on the tax base to the tune of about $5,000 a year, which I think is reasonable.

38:09So I just want to be clear. This motion doesn't increase the cost at all.

38:14And while we were chatting, staff proposed clarification thanks to Councillor Goller's eagle eye. So I'd like to pull my motion off the floor with the permission of the seconder and just retable the corrected motion.

38:25All right, let me go through my process here. You're removing it the mover. Yes, you're removing it the seconder. Yes. Does anyone on council disagree with removing it? No. Okay, that motion is gone.

38:38And it's back over to you to table the correct one. So the new clean wording.

38:42Is that the seasonal patio program as described in the permanent seasonal patio program report dated July 5th 2023 be amended to reflect a revenue neutral service level with a $10 per square meter per month for an on street fee with any additional funding coming from the

39:02general tax levy in the case that fees do not fully cover the cost of the program. Council Richard, any. Okay. The second that one. Okay. Great. So it's back on the floor. Thank you.

39:12All right. Is there anything further? I have a few questions myself, but I'll go to Councillor Caron first.

39:21Sure. I have my numbers right as well. I can't hear you.

39:25Mr. Mary, I apologize that this might need to go back to Councillor Gibson, who was also doing calculations about 100 square foot patio. And the calculation was $1000. But the motion and the staff report is $10 per square meter.

39:46So, in just in order if I could ask staff a 100 square foot patio, square foot patio would not be $1000 per month. What would the cost be?

40:01Just to clarify, it was 100 square meters when I was talking.

40:04Okay. 30 foot by 30.

40:07Okay. Thanks for that clarification. My second question, I did give staff a heads up. It seems to be a little bit more complicated than I thought.

40:15Staff a heads up. It seems that one of the more significant costs that's perpetuating or that's led to the fee is the setup of the water barriers. And I know it's not the first time we've all heard as councillors and the public and put this question to staff about the necessity of the water barriers.

40:36And when we first started the program, it was certainly understood that there was a code for anything on a roadway. And I've visited numerous patios throughout Ontario since then. And this is the only type of barrier that I've seen.

40:53Councillor Caron. Councillor Caron, I'm very sorry to interrupt. I just wondered maybe it's because you're talking about such a separate issue, which I don't disagree with.

41:02Okay. I'm trying to narrow down costs and try to make a decision about the...

41:08Oh, okay. I see where you're going. It's a costing thing.

41:10It's a costing thing. I was more aesthetic since I'm sorry. My apologies.

41:12No, not aesthetics at all. And certainly I'm not questioning safety or risk. It's that if the water barrier was not required for setup, how would that change the cost recovery? I just got to my point a little faster with that question.

41:36For you, Mayor, to Councillor Caron, we would, as part of the ongoing program, we are looking forward to different options. We have heard lots of feedback, even internally with staff about what replacement barriers could be, could look like as long as they still function in a safe way.

41:59We also consulted with our operations staff who said the water barriers are very easy to empty and move, which cuts down ultimately on the set up and tear down costs as well.

42:10And helps an emergency if we need to do something very, very quickly in the downtown around the patios.

42:17So all that to say, all that to say, as the, if the permanent program is approved,

42:24we would, you know, we will be looking to other options around barricades, especially as it relates to any downtown infrastructure temporary or otherwise to adjust patios.

42:35So there could be a possibility that we look at something that may result in a less costly option, but I can't say that for sure right now.

42:46Okay, so in terms of this recommendation, that the costs that are embedded in the report, even if there's a change of those barriers, that's the recommendation because it's within the same ballpark.

42:57Thanks, Mr. Mayor. That's the end of my questions.

43:00Yep, thank you. I'm sorry I interrupted you there. You were on, you were on point and I didn't understand, so my apologies.

43:09Okay, any other questions because I have one. So I, you know, I am concerned a little bit about the costs here hitting

43:20some of them to be able to do it because there is such a draw to the downtown. I believe there is a tourism draw for our downtown core, which benefits more than just the businesses that have a patio.

43:34I know that because my wife and I have walked around as we're waiting for a table and gone and bought something at a non restaurant store and so it happens, right? It draws people down.

43:44So my concern is that is there going to be any follow up because this is like a permanent, this is a permanent program we're saying this is it.

43:53Is there any follow up after this first year with downtown businesses or others around how it went?

44:04What was the uptake? Because Council going to get some kind of a, even if it's an information report or something, just like, okay, we had X amount.

44:12You know, the first year, unfortunately in COVID, we had this much and then we, oh my gosh, it grew to this much and oh my gosh, it grew to this much.

44:19And then we made this decision and it was like, boom, just the bottom fell out. I would like to kind of know that I'm sure we'll all be able to optically see that

44:28if that's what happens. It'd be nice to have some kind of a report back to tell us how it went.

44:36Or there was no change, right? Could be there was no change at all too.

44:45Sorry about that. Yes, Mayor Guthrie. It's absolutely something that we talked about. I remember in the first presentation as well about

44:54monitoring the program ongoing in terms of cost and revenue side of the program. So yes, if there's a will of council to have a follow up information report

45:05through a mechanism, we can look at if there's an existing avenue to do that or

45:10yeah, we're happy to follow up.

45:14Yeah, I would, I'm just looking at some heads nodding in the room here, a couple on the screen.

45:19So maybe we can move them. Council consider moving a motion for an information report after a one year follow up.

45:25After after all this is taking it could be a separate motion. I'll leave it to council because I can't move it. But yeah, go ahead. Councillor Dyer.

45:32Just for you, Mr. Mitt, the money we concern with that monitoring report is that there are a number of patios that are

45:38empty.

45:40A lot of the time.

45:42And so of course this fee is going to filter that out a bit, right?

45:47So when you monitor it, like it's going to be the patios that where it doesn't

45:52make financial sense for them. So

45:55it's going to be not a real you're not going to get a really good

45:58monitoring sense until the second and third year. I think of the patio program, compare it. The baseline will be next year.

46:07And then continuing because I don't think you can compare it

46:11to this year when people are, you know, businesses are putting them up without the I know some that put it up without the expectation of having any.

46:19But

46:20Because it's not costing much. So

46:24And it you know, but it takes up parking spaces and if they're not being used then we have to consider that.

46:30So I'm just a little concerned about monitoring and coming to too many conclusions

46:34after the first year because I think we will see a drop off.

46:38So I totally agree with you councillor. Totally agree with you.

46:41And I think I think that could probably be a takeaway if such an information report came forward that that that our professional staff would be able to incorporate into

46:49the data collected and the results of that. You know, sorry to staff. Go ahead.

46:53Yeah, we were just speaking here and there could be an opportunity

46:56to do this in a more holistic way as well as we consider

47:00the planning for downtown infrastructure renewal and maybe as a preemptive

47:06piece to informing that program. We come back with

47:11probably more than one year in terms of an assessment and analysis of the patio program because ultimately will be

47:17likely making some adjustments to make sure

47:20there's there the patio program as it looks right now and we're proposing now

47:26has some sustainability through the infrastructure renewal piece as well.

47:30It's a good call too. Okay. Thank you.

47:32Well, look, I I I I may have veered off and done exactly what I should have been talking to interrupting myself like I interrupted councillor

47:38Koran. I think I veered off instead of calling the

47:41the vote on the amendment.

47:43All right. So we're going to call the vote on the amendment, which is the $10 as as

47:47as councillor Ororak suggested. Okay.

47:51So I'm going to

47:52The amendment is not on the $10. The amendment is on the revenue neutral service level adjustment. I'm sorry. Yes

48:00as councillor Ororak just stated that part.

48:02All right. I'm going to call the vote is anyone against that.

48:06Okay. That's unanimous.

48:08Thank you. Going back to the main motion then as amended.

48:11Is there anything further on this?

48:16No. Okay. Well, I I would just say that my only comment for the vote is

48:22At some point we knew this was coming.

48:26I think that's important like at some point we knew

48:29some kind of permanency was coming and there would be costs to it

48:34and

48:37This may be the balance we're looking for. We don't really know until we try something

48:43and

48:44We encourage people to work with our staff

48:47in regards to how they can implement successful

48:50adios wherever they are

48:52and

48:53Because it is it is a great thing. I think for our community and and nobody would deny that so

49:00But we knew this moment was coming and we we have to as a council

49:04Set policy to move forward on something. So let this be the foundational thing and and we'll go from there. Okay

49:10That's my two cents on it. So, okay. I'll call the vote is anyone against the main motion then as amended

49:18Okay, not seeing any that's unanimous as well

49:21Would anybody be willing to move a motion for an information report to come? Okay

49:26Councillor Klassen would be willing to do that

49:29Uh

49:30And chew will second it. So of course our staff needs some kind of wording for that motion. So

49:37I can verbally say it out loud as an idea or do you have it already written or go ahead

49:45That

49:46staff

49:48Come back to council

49:49on an annual basis with an information report

49:53On the permanent patio program

49:58Is that feel comfortable for you staff just confirming that's an annual report

50:03Yes

50:06Yeah, an annual report

50:08Okay, you you're okay with that

50:11Yes, it's a will of council. Yes, okay

50:14Do you have a question on the amendment? I'm sorry the the motion go ahead councillor

50:17I have a question margathri

50:18So we just heard staff say the first year won't give us any good data really

50:23Because the first year will be the baseline, right? So if we

50:27we you know

50:28are

50:32Right. So so staff said a two year might be helpful

50:36Or every two years like you won't see trend data after one year, right?

50:41And um, so I'm just I'm just asking the question

50:44That's what I heard from staff that the preference was to wait two years

50:48So that they would have

50:50Some stability in the first year and then see the trend going forward after that

50:55Um through you mr.

50:56Margo, we just yeah if we could just clarify. So you're right in the first year

51:00We're going to have a certain set of data

51:02um

51:03But just as we mentioned in the next few years the downtown renewal is going to start taking place

51:08So it's not going to necessarily be apples to apples. So we're

51:11We're happy to report on it. We might suggest maybe every other year

51:1524 and then maybe 26

51:18Because that work is going to be happening and it's going to change how the patios get

51:22Get built and utilized in the downtown just a suggestion

51:27Okay

51:28so

51:29Someone would have to move an amendment to change it to

51:32biannual

51:33I I I disagree on it. I would like to know I would like to know how it's impacting and I am

51:41I am I think mature enough to understand that it can't be apples to apples comparisons

51:46But I would like to see the data and I can digest it and myself

51:50So that that's that's that's where I'm at at it. Is anyone want to change it to two years?

51:56No, okay, then I'm gonna call the vote then on the motion as it stands for the information report on an annual

52:02basis

52:03Is anyone against that?

52:05Nobody okay, so that's unanimous. I think we're done with the patio program then right?