Section 5 of the Code of Conduct for Council and Local Boards be amended to include an exception for 'food, lodging…

51:59Thank you. I am not, I guess it's that good. There's no questions. So, John, thank you. I jokingly say this every time. I don't like to see you. I don't like to hear from you.

52:13But in this case, I appreciate it and I think council appreciates the clarity and the public does too. And that's your job. So, for that, we appreciate it and I'll bring it back to council at this time.

52:27Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, John.

52:31Council, we have a recommendation in front of us just to receive the report.

52:35Claussen and Gibson, is there anything further? Hearing and seeing none, I'll call the vote on receiving anyone against receiving. None. That's unanimous. Thank you so much.

52:50Moving right along on to the next one that's in relation to this one is the Code of Conduct Amendment in relation to what we just heard so that we can look to rectify this issue.

53:04I will just like to, if you don't mind, take a moment. But before I do, I would need a mover and a seconder at least for Galler and Richardson. Okay, thank you.

53:17Not looking over over you. Thank you. And if you could just give me a moment, I would like to read this out loud.

53:26In relation to the integrity commissioner report in which I self reported, I respectfully submit a resolution to council for consideration

53:35to remedy the code of conduct and these changes, if approved, will become applicable to all members of council.

53:40The resolution has been crafted with input from the integrity commissioner and the city of Guelph-Clark's department.

53:46In specific reference to the global covenant of mayors in 2018, Guelph City Council unanimously approved Guelph becoming a signatory to this globally recognized organization.

53:58And in 2022, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, of which Guelph is a member, contacted me directly to ask if they could submit my name through them as the secretariat

54:10to be considered as a position for the North American representative on the GCOM Board of Directors.

54:16And I was unanimously approved to join.

54:18Now, since that time, I have represented the GCOM values and goals while also representing the city of Guelph as mayor.

54:27I have attended several events to speak on the work our city is doing and advocate for the inclusion of cities within higher orders of government policies.

54:36My presence along GCOM has already secured $50,000 U.S.

54:41towards the creation of a new Youth Climate Action Fund,

54:45which has been successfully launched and supported by young people across our city.

54:50In fact, I think some of the delegates here tonight are speaking from some of the money where that has gone.

54:56I am now currently working in the final stages of trying to secure

55:01$100,000 U.S. for a second round of grants for our youth in the city for climate change action.

55:09These connections have also led to successful training provided for city of Guelph staff through partnerships with ICLEE,

55:15C40 Cities and GCOM enabling the opportunity to strengthen the impacts of our own climate change and energy office.

55:22Now, from a government relations perspective, I have continued to promote Guelph innovation, sustainable infrastructure projects, energy initiatives to upper levels of government.

55:31And I continue to advocate for greater municipal resources and supports for environmental projects

55:36and champion applications for funding for climate change initiatives.

55:41So this motion before us is to ensure that this matter can be resolved

55:45so that the important work on behalf of the city of Guelph and our partnerships with FCM,

55:49ICLEE, the Cities for Climate Protection Network and GCOM can continue to proceed.

55:55And it's also consistent with the Council on Mayoral Expense Policy regarding education programs and attendance at events.

56:03So with that, the motion as it stands today is that Section 5 of the Code of Conduct for Council

56:09and local boards be amended to include an exemption for food, lodging, transportation and entertainment provided by third party organizations for attendance

56:18at events which are targeted to a municipal government audience and when the total benefit exceeds 300,

56:24that requires reporting in the City Council and local boards gift disclosure within 30 days.

56:31There also is a letter from the CEO of the Federation of the Canadian Municipalities

56:38also backing this and validating my position through FCM, which they are still the secretariat

56:46for that position through to GCOM. And so I appreciate the CEO of FCM providing that letter to Council as well.

56:56With that, is there anything further on this item? Councillor O'Rourke.

57:02Thanks, Maga 3. So I understand that you crafted that motion with the integrity commissioner, but I find it's much too broad

57:11because it would apply to anybody on Council and local boards

57:15and then people could accept and then just come back and report it. So I have an amendment to move

57:22that adds after the words government audience, it adds with the prior approval of City Council when the benefit exceeds $300.

57:30And that way, you know, frankly, I didn't recall that we hadn't approved your participation on the global Covenant of Mayors.

57:38So if one of us was in that position or a board was, a member of a local board was in that position, you could come to Council,

57:45explain the appointment, explain what it was, and then with full transparency that Council could then approve that.

57:53So I have an amendment to propose to your first clause. And then just so that the transparency is there, as you are still a member of the Global Covenant of Mayors,

58:04there's a second clause that would then allow you to continue that work.

58:10Great. Is there a seconder? Okay.

58:12Richardson is seconding.

58:15Okay. And is there anything on that? Okay, Councillor Goller.

58:19Through your worship to the mover. Thank you for suggesting this, Councillor Oroca. I am concerned about the,

58:26that this would become cumbersome. If people are going to events, by this wording, they would have to come to a meeting of Council

58:35every time they're going to go to an event where they're being come for more than $300. It just seems that

58:41we would have a lot of requests having to come to Council that way.

58:45So through you, Mayor Guthrie, I actually don't think there would be that many instances because for the most part we're all going to

58:52AMO or FCM.

58:54And so the type of travel and accommodation, maybe the number is wrong. I just picked the same number

59:01that is the disclosure requirement.

59:03But I don't know that it's very frequent that people are paying for travel and accommodation for a member of Council or of a local board to attend. So that's,

59:11that was the language. Without that clause of approving Council,

59:16anyone could accept anything to any conference under the municipal government audience. So

59:22I found the original motion way too broad and that this creates at least some reflection and then some transparency.

59:30Okay. Okay. Well, thank you for that. I appreciate it.

59:34Seeing as the original motion still requires a report to be made

59:3830 days, I will not be supporting the additional motion. And I am concerned about

59:43making on-the-flight changes to something that was developed by the integrity commissioner

59:47when we have embedded those changes by other people. Thank you.

59:52Alton and Gibson. Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie.

59:55Similar to Councillor Goller.

59:58In reading the original motion that was put forward and then

1:00:02motion one, which is essentially a replacement for that, and then motion two,

1:00:07which is really an action of Council, not a replacement. It strikes me that the original motion

1:00:13provides us with the security that anybody on Council

1:00:18is not inadvertently contravening the Code of Conduct.

1:00:23I have some problems with number two because I think that in fact the original motion allows for

1:00:30you or whatever, Mayor, to be a member of the global covenant of the mayors regardless.

1:00:35So I'd say that in some sense, number two is actually redundant. So I will continue to support

1:00:40the original motion and not the two that have been moved as amendments.

1:00:44Okay. Thank you. And Gibson.

1:00:47You question for the mover. I like the intent of the motion.

1:00:53Coming to Council for approval creates an agenda item, creates potential for delegations,

1:01:03creates the potential for politicization. Am I off base in thinking that or would it just be a

1:01:08receipt? Like if it's a Council vote, it seems to me that it would become an agenda item.

1:01:13And therefore, we could be spending hours at Council debating whether or not the Mayor goes to

1:01:19Sweden for a climate change conference. Can you help me understand that a little bit, please?

1:01:25Sure. So through you, Mayor Guthrie, Councillor Gibson, the thought behind it is that without that

1:01:31clause of approval of Council, anyone could accept any benefit that would apply to this clause.

1:01:39It could be anything and then just has to come back and report it after the fact.

1:01:44So I find that a little weak, frankly. And to my recollection, when we have a Councillor who

1:01:53wants to serve on the Board of AMO, we have a motion of Council to say, yeah, we support that.

1:01:58So it's with that intention, it's not to belabor the point if everybody's comfortable with the

1:02:03original recommendation. So be it. I just felt that the original language was very permissive.

1:02:11I don't disagree. I think there's you've identified like a bit of a governance gap

1:02:17that I think we could probably look to close in the future. I'm a little nervous about

1:02:24bringing it to Council for approval in a public forum. I just I fear the politicization of that

1:02:31decision making. But I do agree with you that there probably should be some more accountability

1:02:36there. I'm thinking maybe I'm not going to support your motion, but I'm thinking maybe in future

1:02:41meetings when it comes to governance, we can look to create some wording around that. Thank you.

1:02:50Thank you. I got Koran and then I have Downer and then I see you. Kate as well.

1:02:57Matthew, you Mr. Mayor, I don't think that this amendment is actually about this situation at

1:03:02all. It's about good governance. And there is a gap for me as well. I don't think that I have no

1:03:07issue with Global Covenant of Mayors or Mayor Guthrie's participation in that group. I think

1:03:13it has benefits to the city. And if this were to come to Council, I think we would all unanimously

1:03:18support the Mayor for participating in that organization. This is about future Councils.

1:03:23And we don't know what other future opportunities and conferences and we could have a global

1:03:29Covenant of Climate Deniers Conference. We don't know what the future holds. This is a long-term

1:03:37addition to enhance our code of conduct for potential situations that do not include what's

1:03:44happening today. Thank you. Downer then Kate. So just through you, Mayor, the one thing I do

1:03:52want to point out is that AMO is an FCM or different in that the municipality pays for the expenses

1:03:59of the part when I was on the AMO Board, it was the municipality that paid for my accommodation

1:04:06and things like that. So it's a lot different than an outside organization that is funding this.

1:04:13So I tend to want to leave it alone. I mean, it might be something we want to tweak when we look

1:04:21at the code of conduct again in a review and think about that. But I'm happy with the original

1:04:27motion and not adding anything in at this point. Okay, thank you. And last is Kate.

1:04:34Thank you. Through you, Mr. Mayor. I'm kind of along the same lines as Councillor O'Rourke and

1:04:40Councillor Caron and that like I don't have any issues with the current circumstance that we

1:04:46had just discussed in the integrity report, but it's more about the potential for

1:04:53inappropriate use that I would have concerns about. So what would be the timeline

1:05:00for a review if we didn't pass this motion now? Through you, Mr. Mayor, there's a governance

1:05:10review going before City Council in March of next year. That includes a code of conduct review.

1:05:18Okay. So I'm going to support the amendment now, but just in light of like if it doesn't pass,

1:05:25then I'm comfortable with the next timeline being reviewed in March. Okay, thank you. So I'll just

1:05:34call the vote and just before I call the vote, I would just say that I did craft this kind of

1:05:39in conjunction with the IC and with clerks as well. And the way I view it is that it's about

1:05:47equalization for everyone. Like all members have the same kind of process. It's not even about me

1:05:53as the mayor, but you know, I think there's some boundaries around it because of the disclosure

1:06:02anyways by default. And I would suggest that we stick to the original so that it's equal for all.

1:06:12And then in March, we can always review it then if we had to. But yeah, this would definitely,

1:06:19you know, it would give me the ability anyways to catch me within this to continue with GCOM

1:06:26because there is work that I'm doing on there in regards to the city as well. So

1:06:31I'm not going to support that, but I'll call the vote then though. So those against the amendment,

1:06:36please raise your hand. So Guller, Klassen, Alt, Lucetil, Guthrie, Downer, Chu, Gibson, Billings.

1:06:49Okay, so that does fail. So we're back to the original motion. Is there anything else that

1:06:53needs to be said before we call the vote on the original motion? I think I'd like to say more,

1:06:59but I just won't. So I'll call the vote. Is anyone against? Okay, and that's unanimous.

1:07:06Thank you so much, everyone. Let us continue. We are at the municipal franchise agreement with

1:07:15Enbridge Gas, Inc. We have a few delegations and let me get my glasses on. Indigo, are you here?

1:07:23Yes, come on down. Indigo Moran is here from the Youth Climate, Anxiety and Action. Welcome.

1:07:51Thanks for coming again. Appreciate it. And yeah, the microphone's been turned green for you there.

1:07:57So by the way, everyone has up to five minutes just so you know. And then you'll hear the chime at

1:08:03the four minute and 30 second mark, which gives you the 30 second warning. Okay, don't let it get

1:08:09to five minutes because then the microphone gets turned off. Okay. And then stick around just in

1:08:12case there's any follow up questions. Okay. Okay. Over to you whenever you're ready.

1:08:18Good evening, Mr. Mayor, city councillors, staff and fellow community members. My name is Indigo

1:08:24Moran and I am full of righteous indignation. On October 31st, residents of an encampment in

1:08:31St. George's Square were told to leave. Eviction notices were placed on their shelters, giving

1:08:36them a deadline of November 13th. On that day, officials moved in to take residents' belongings

1:08:42to storage without their consent before even 1030 in the morning. These people weren't making money

1:08:49by being there. They weren't indirectly taxing people and weren't producing excessive amounts of

1:08:54greenhouse gases. They were just living there, exercising their right to exist in a public

1:08:59space as people who have been ostracized is and shut out from other places that they may have tried

1:09:05to live. They were trying to find community and a semi-permanent location to be. Yet they were

1:09:11policed, questioned, shunned and eventually evicted, in spite of the winter being one of the hardest

1:09:17seasons for unhoused people, in spite of two premature deaths happening just a couple of days

1:09:22prior to this eviction. By contrast, Enbridge is having major successes right now. They made

1:09:291.3 billion in only the third quarter this year. They're expecting to finish 2024 with earnings

1:09:35between 17.7 and 8.3 billion, all while importing mostly fracked gas, according to Environmental

1:09:42Defense Canada, for their pipelines and emitting abysmal amounts of methane gas. According to

1:09:48Uniform Workers in Queens Park, Enbridge also ignores leaks in their pipelines for weeks,

1:09:52allowing gas to escape, and they're planning to stop compliance testing their infrastructure

1:09:57as frequently as they are supposed to. What is so fundamentally wrong with our society that we

1:10:03restrict police and punished people just trying to survive in public spaces? Yet look the other way

1:10:09when a polluting company makes millions from our community through a hidden subsidy. Why are we,

1:10:15through refusing to address this contradiction, refusing spaces to people who have almost nothing

1:10:20and giving money and land to a billion-dollar corporation by charging them nothing but property

1:10:25taxes? Perhaps I and others would be less concerned if $15 million weren't being cut mostly from

1:10:32environmental programs next year. Or maybe I wouldn't think it was realistic to change our energy

1:10:38consumption if this were pre-2023, and we didn't know that heat pumps are 13% cheaper than natural

1:10:44gas. Or if I didn't know, sadly, that 83% of extreme weather events in the last 20 years have

1:10:52either been incaused or exacerbated by climate change. Or if the youth mental health crisis

1:11:00weren't worsened by climate change, with 49% of youth expressing extreme concern over the state of

1:11:06our climate, or even if our health care system wasn't becoming increasingly privatized, or if

1:11:13climate doom-scrolling and political misinformation weren't so rampant in an increasingly digital

1:11:18world. But none of those things are the case. This is 2024, and we're witnessing the climate

1:11:24crisis event effects on weather events and human health. We see it through news publications and

1:11:30stories from people we know. I've witnessed the impacts of all of this on youth mental health

1:11:35firsthand, and we know that it is possible, practical, and affordable to do better than we are

1:11:42We cannot treat the housing crisis, health care accessibility, mental health emergency,

1:11:47and the climate crisis as isolated, separate events. We must acknowledge the connections

1:11:53between these issues and work to fix them. You can start today by ending the subsidization of

1:11:59this fossil gas giant. Put that $9 million back in our community, and not the pockets of a multi-

1:12:06billion-dollar corporation. Support councillor's Koran's motion once more, and show the people

1:12:11living in Guelph today that you care. Thank you. Thank you so much. Is there any questions as a

1:12:19follow-up? Hearing and seeing none, thank you very much. Thank you. Okay, Murray Costello,

1:12:28and I think Patrick McMahon, McMahon, is maybe coming down together. Yes. Thank you both for

1:12:40coming, and again, no more than five minutes. If you can share the five minutes if you want, or

1:12:46whatever you wish, but whatever it is, it's no more than five minutes. I'll turn it over to you

1:12:50whenever you're ready. Go right ahead. Okay. Thank you. Good evening, your worship, Mayor Guthrie,

1:12:55Council, and City staff. Thank you for the opportunity to share some information on Enbridge,

1:13:00more specifically the model franchise agreement they were requesting well-approved for. My name

1:13:05is Murray Costello. I'm the Director Southeast Region Operations. I have Accountabilities for

1:13:09the Maintenance Construction Operation of our Natural Gas System here in this area. Joining

1:13:14me this evening is Patrick McMahon, our Technical Manager Regulatory Affairs. Taking a look at

1:13:20Enbridge here in Ontario, we provide dependable energy to 3.9 million customers. We are innovating

1:13:25and adapting our business model to accelerate the transition to a net zero emission future,

1:13:30focusing our efforts in three areas, using less through conservation, so programs residential,

1:13:35business, industrial customers, transitioning to renewable gases. So I think we're renewable

1:13:40natural gas, think of hydrogen, advancing clean technologies for transportation,

1:13:45building heat, and industrial processes such as CNG, RNG, hybrid heating, geothermal, and

1:13:51carbon capture. Corporately, if I look back to 2002, Enbridge was an early adopter investing in

1:13:57renewable energy in both wind and solar. Since 2002, we've invested $10 billion across North

1:14:05America and offshore. Currently, we have wind farms in Concord and Dorian, Richdown, and Solar

1:14:10Farms in Sarnia, Tilbury, and Amesburg. When I take a look at the city of Guelph here, we've been

1:14:16in serving natural gas to the city of Guelph since 1955. We are very proud to serve in an industrial,

1:14:24commercial, residential customers of 48,000. We're a proud community partner. Please have

1:14:29supported a number of initiatives in 2024 such as Windham House, Children's Foundation, Guelph

1:14:34and Wellington School, Hopewell Children's Home Incorporated, and Lakeside Hope House.

1:14:42I know that it came up the concept about relocation costs, and I did go back and take a look over the

1:14:47last 10 years. And there's been $11 million that Enbridge has invested in relocation programs here

1:14:53within the city of Guelph. Not one of those projects in the past 10 years required a contribution

1:14:59from the city of Guelph. So I know that there is talk about allocating, and that can happen for

1:15:05pipe that's post-1981. But when we looked over the last 10 years, there's not the one project in the

1:15:10city of Guelph. Something I am proud about is the downtown Guelph revitalization project and working

1:15:17very closely with staff to work through that. So we did invest, or we are investing this year,

1:15:22$2.6 million this year to operate our system, to move it out of the way, to get out of the way

1:15:29for utility conflicts. Yes, there is an upside to our company is that we do have an upgraded system

1:15:34going into 2025. We'll invest another $2.5 million, no contribution from the city,

1:15:40to update that infrastructure in the downtown, support the downtime revitalization.

1:15:47I know there's been the concept of subsidization come up, and I did want to talk about property

1:15:51taxes. So across Ontario, we do pay. In 2023, there was $124 million paid in property taxes,

1:15:59in Guelph, it would be slightly over $1 million that we did contribute to the city of Guelph. So

1:16:05we do pay taxes for every meter of pipe that we do have in the ground. On the municipal franchise

1:16:10agreement, it's been in place since January 2000. If we look how it was started, it was between AMO,

1:16:18the Ontario Energy Board and the gas utilities at that time. This current agreement does expire

1:16:24if I go to May 16, 2025. The model franchise agreement was put in place to create a level

1:16:30playing field across Ontario. So we did not have one community subsidizing another community. It

1:16:35was an efficient model agreement created to create that equality across the province. The OAB does

1:16:44direct the franchise agreements to be based on this model agreement, unless there's compelling

1:16:49reasons to deviate from it. When I look across Ontario today, there is 342 of those agreements.

1:16:54I think there's only one minor deviation due to some certain geographic changes.

1:17:02We look at the model agreement, yes, it's a 20 years agreement. There is a clause in there. So if

1:17:06changes do happen, they're approved by the OAB. They would be incorporated in on the seventh

1:17:10anniversary and the 14th anniversary of that agreement. Signing the franchise agreement doesn't

1:17:16force people to use natural gas. It creates that framework under which we would operate.

1:17:25So in closing, let me say we're committed to lowering emissions while meeting the energy

1:17:29demands of our customers. We aim to keep energy costs in check and anticipate our customers energy

1:17:35needs for tomorrow and develop new energy solutions. As the energy evolution continues

1:17:41to unfold, we absolutely do need to maintain the reliability and the safety of the distribution

1:17:47network that we have in place today. Hence why we are requesting the renewal of the current model

1:17:52franchise agreement here in Guelph. Great, thank you very much. Is there any questions for this

1:17:59delegate? Councillor Caron, please. Great, thank you, Mr. Mayor, through you. And thanks for presenting

1:18:05this evening. You did mention that the history of the model franchise agreement goes back

1:18:1220 years. Yes. But you also acknowledged that the energy landscape has completely changed in the

1:18:18last 20 years. So would you agree, and you know, without going into details about how a model

1:18:24franchise agreement could be changed, but wouldn't you agree that in a wouldn't you agree that a model

1:18:30franchise agreement that was developed 20 years ago, when there's been a complete evolution of

1:18:36energy systems across Canada, might be up for a little bit of work and change and updating,

1:18:45given that the energy landscape includes an entire renewable sector and and transformation and the

1:18:52costs to municipalities have increased over time as well.

1:18:58Keanu, sure. Through you, Mr. Mayor, Padmik Man here. The model franchise agreement actually

1:19:04originated back in 1987. And it was updated through request through email that wanted to make

1:19:11updates to the model franchise agreement. So it's it's basically terms and conditions

1:19:17related to our operations within the municipality. It doesn't necessarily account for changes in

1:19:24energy frameworks or technology that might occur. It was actually written on purpose

1:19:31generically to address how we should operate within municipalities and leave it up to

1:19:37discussions with the municipalities on specifics on road work and follow up with staff at

1:19:43municipalities. So it doesn't actually contain a lot about framework or any changes in the energy

1:19:51regime in the in the province. And the Ontario Energy Board hasn't been persuaded to change the

1:19:59model franchise agreement, mainly because they haven't had a lot of complaints about the model

1:20:04franchise agreement from municipalities or AMO. It was a negotiated document led primarily by AMO

1:20:13in the day and with the gas utilities. So it was kind of negotiation at the time. And that's

1:20:21while the changes some municipalities have suggested changes to the model franchise agreement.

1:20:26Most of it is different conditions or refinements to reporting to the municipalities or

1:20:35municipal franchise fees and things like that. And the Ontario Energy Board just has not

1:20:41agreed with making changes to the model franchise agreement because of the impact across the province.

1:20:47If you try to make one off changes for one municipality, when 300 plus other municipalities

1:20:54would be impacted as well. Thank you. And is there any other questions at this time?

1:21:04Okay, I have one. I'm just curious. So we often are hearing lately, especially from those that are

1:21:11sort of advocating for kind of some of these positions, that other provinces have completely

1:21:16different sort of setups that the utility, similar utility in a different province would

1:21:23be paying money to the municipality for the right of use of their roadways or other agreements.

1:21:30Whereas in Ontario, it's different. Can you reflect on that for us? Why do you think that

1:21:38Ontario is different than many of the other provinces where they have a different setup?

1:21:43I'm just curious. If you have researched that, why is it different?

1:21:47Well, through you, Mr. Mayor, the other regimes will talk, for instance, Alberta,

1:21:54where they do allow franchise fees to be collected through Atco Gas. The difficulty they have there

1:22:01is the rate driver impact of these fees. And the municipal franchise fees in Alberta were

1:22:10talking hundreds of millions. For instance, the city of Edmonton probably gets 70 million.

1:22:17Calgary gets maybe 80 million from Atco Gas on an annual basis. So those

1:22:23costs are actually recovered from the rate pairs of Atco Gas. So, right. So the rates will go up

1:22:30to recover those costs. And what they've determined is that instead of municipalities collecting

1:22:36revenue to pay for services through property taxes and other assessments,

1:22:41they're collecting it through Atco Gas. And so it's the same taxpayer acting as a gas rate

1:22:48pair that's actually paying those fees. Okay, thank you. All right. Oh, I see a hand. I see a hand.

1:22:56Councillor Billings. So through you, Worship. Okay. Given what you just said, you're aware of the

1:23:03recommendation in front of us and Council would like to see you being charged fees for the use

1:23:09of public property. However, Clause 3C would like to see an agreement which will ensure future charges

1:23:19for use of municipal property is not passed on to the Guelph customers of the gas distribution

1:23:26company. So when I read that, I think it sounds politically good, but not realistic. So I wanted

1:23:33you to comment on that. Given what you just said, is it not the likelihood that these fees

1:23:40would be passed on to the rate payers? Through you, Mr. Mayor. The proposed legislation

1:23:50is to try to make changes to the regulation that doesn't allow these fees to be charged to

1:23:57utilities like Enbridge gas. And to get the municipal franchise agreement changed, we would

1:24:05have to make an application to the Interior Energy Board to accept clauses addressing this

1:24:12proposed legislation. And from our experience, the Interior Energy Board would not even recognize

1:24:19speculative legislation. So they wouldn't act on speculative legislation. They act on legislation

1:24:29or directions from the minister, but anything speculative, they do not act on. So they wouldn't

1:24:36do anything with a recommendation to add clauses talking about proposed legislation.

1:24:43As far as recovery of municipal franchise fees, if they were ever passed as accepted,

1:24:53the Interior Energy Board has the practice, as Mr. Costello said earlier, to approve the recovery of

1:25:00permit fees or other costs that are incurred by Enbridge gas to provide service through rates.

1:25:07So they would be, the Interior Energy Board, in all likelihood would allow recovery of prudently

1:25:14incurred franchise fees through the rates charged to the rate payers and the citizens of the city of

1:25:20Guelph. So it's not something we would not recommend to change the Board's long-standing policy of

1:25:28recovering costs and rates because the benefit rates follow the benefits. So if the taxpayers of

1:25:37the city of Guelph are benefiting from a franchise fee, that's who should be paying for the benefit.

1:25:43And so that's the long-standing policy of the Interior Energy Board and that's what we would

1:25:48continue to pursue. Thank you for that. Thanks, Councillor Billings. Over to Councillor Allt, please.

1:25:56Thank you very much, Mayor Guthrie. Through you to the delegates, I apologize. I don't know why

1:26:01my thing is dingy. I've got it on silent. That was my wife. The question that I have for you,

1:26:09I didn't come up until I heard a couple of the other Councillors ask questions.

1:26:13I'm struggling with an issue of transparency and equity. One of the things that strikes me about

1:26:19this that's good, whether the costs are passed on to the consumers or not, is that there's very

1:26:24clear transparency that this is part of the cost of using natural gas, which I think is important.

1:26:31I do believe in transparency. The other one is equity. It strikes me as well that consumers and

1:26:38residents of Guelph or any other community who are not using gas but are perhaps using electricity

1:26:45or maybe in the odd case, completely off the grid, are actually being charged through our taxes

1:26:52inadvertently for Enbridge essentially using city property. Am I correct in that?

1:27:02So I'll take through, Mayor, to Councillor Allt. No, I wouldn't see it that way. I'd say go back

1:27:09to the fact that we are paying a million dollars to the City of Guelph in property taxes for every

1:27:15meter of pipe. I'm sorry, just one second. I'll give you your time. To those in the audience,

1:27:21I would appreciate the respect that we gave you as much as you should give the respect to the

1:27:26next delegates that are speaking right now. Is that fair? Because we do it for you? It is.

1:27:32So thank you very much. Back to you. Thank you. So we do pay property taxes for each meter of pipe

1:27:42that we do have in the ground. We are passive. We are not looking for a lot of the services

1:27:48that the municipality that prepares. We do believe that natural gas has been an economic

1:27:56driver for this community and many other communities across Ontario. With regards to the transparency

1:28:04issue, with my hydro, I see the distribution fees from electorates. I see everything up front.

1:28:13What I'm wondering is because some of this is actually not within the fees that I see

1:28:19for my natural gas, is there a transparency issue here as well? And again, apologies for my phone.

1:28:24I've actually got it. Do not disturb. Through you, Mr. Mayor, if you could just clarify what you mean

1:28:34by what you're not seeing on the bill from Cambridge. Yes, I believe that there is a

1:28:39essentially a transportation fee as a consequence of the lines in Guelph's and within Guelph's land.

1:28:48We'll put it that way. And consequently, I don't see 100% of the cost in my gas bill,

1:28:55because I do use gas. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I've completely got the whole equation backwards.

1:29:01Through you, Mr. Mayor. The rates are designed to recover the total revenue of carbon of

1:29:07ember gas. And we charge uniform rates to anyone that uses it in the city of Guelph.

1:29:16And the costs are allocated among the different classes of customers on a system basis. So

1:29:26there may be uniform rates, but recovering all the costs that we incur. So all the costs that

1:29:33we incur are recovered through the rates. It's not itemized. You don't see a line item that says

1:29:42property taxes or things like that. They're all rolled up into O&M costs or capital related costs

1:29:50and rolled into the revenue requirement. Then the revenue requirements is divided by

1:29:54the cubic meters that we sell to come up with an average rate for a distribution charge

1:29:59or a transportation charge. So that's how it's divided out. You don't see an individual line

1:30:05item. You'll see it for taxes, carbon tax or HST. But you won't see individual cost items. They're

1:30:13rolled up in aggregate. And then the Interior Engine Board determines what the rate structure will be

1:30:19on how those costs are put in aggregate. And those are the fees that we end up putting on the bill.

1:30:25Okay. Perhaps the carbon tax should be part of the aggregate. The issue that I then have though

1:30:32is do, and I'll put it a different way, do taxpayers in Guelph who are not using natural gas at all,

1:30:43do they experience any cost as a consequence of lines within Guelph? Just a simple yes or no,

1:30:50really? No. Okay. Thanks. That's all I needed to know. Thank you.

1:31:01Just turn off your mic there. It looks like I got one more from Councillor Gibson.

1:31:07Thank you, through you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you very much for coming to Delegate today.

1:31:12I just wanted to give you an opportunity. There's been a lot of talk about average revenue and the

1:31:16jump it's taken in the last few years. And I tried to bring some transparency to this,

1:31:21but I was just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on revenue and how that's related to

1:31:26your collection of the federal carbon tax and what that's meant to not profits, but revenues for

1:31:33Enbridge. I know that it's broken down a little bit on your website, but if you could just take