Fare Capping Loyalty program be approved with a monthly fare cap set at 28 rides in 2023-2024…

17:33and we have four delegations and for that item.

17:39And so we will go to that and just reminder

17:43to all delegations that you have five minutes

17:46and all of the delegates are in person as well.

17:51So if I could call on Nielsen, Czech Huma,

17:56come forward. Thank you.

18:09Good evening, Councillor.

18:10We were from Kona Stogos students

18:12and we actually reached out to Mayor Guthrie earlier

18:15to delegate together for our five minutes.

18:17Just want to confirm that that's still okay.

18:19I just checked with the clerk.

18:21Yeah, the total is five minutes, but just go ahead.

18:23Thank you.

18:24Thank you so much.

18:25What is the name of the second delegation?

18:28Meet.

18:30Is that meet?

18:32Okay. Okay. So there goodbye. Thank you.

18:37Through the chair.

18:38Hello members of council.

18:40My name is Nelson Chukuma

18:42and I am the current vice president

18:43and incoming president of Kona Stogos students incorporated

18:46or CSI for short.

18:48CSI is the official students association

18:50of Kona Stogos college

18:51and represents over 24,000 students,

18:54including approximately 1500 at our Guelph campus.

18:58Our advocacy efforts are guided by the pillars

19:01of accountability, affordability, equity,

19:05and sustainability, which has brought me here today

19:08alongside our Guelph student transportation

19:11advisory committee representative, Meet Opeje,

19:14to voice both praise and concern

19:17for the Guelph transit verse strategy.

19:20First, we would like to thank Mayor Guthrie

19:22for the relationship he has fostered

19:24with our student association

19:26to keep us informed of municipal decisions,

19:28such as the new Guelph transit verse strategy

19:31and demonstrating his commitment

19:33to involving all stakeholders.

19:35Now, while we learned about this strategy

19:37after consultations had occurred in 2022,

19:41we are really pleased to have the opportunity

19:43to share our perspective this evening

19:45and hope will be included in consultations

19:47for future transit related discussions

19:49as Kona Stogos college continues to grow in Guelph.

19:53Upon reviewing the proposed verse strategy,

19:55CSI overall is supportive of the new strategy

19:59but has some concerns.

20:00And I would like to invite Meet to speak about this further.

20:05Thank you, Nelson.

20:06Good evening, Council.

20:07My name is Meet Opeje

20:08and I'm a current student of Kona Stogos Guelph campus

20:11and a frequent writer of Guelph transit.

20:14I rely on a Guelph transit as my main method

20:17of transportation in the area.

20:19And I'm pleased to say in my experience

20:22and those of my peers,

20:24the driver are extremely friendly,

20:26go out of that to help us to get,

20:29we need to go especially with on demand service

20:32which run on holidays.

20:35Overall, we agree that the new verse strategy

20:39being proposed is more active,

20:41accessible and affordable for many.

20:45At first learning about the strategy,

20:47we were worried about the loss of the semester transit

20:50pass option, but once we learned about the purpose

20:54fare option, we truly saw the value

20:56could be provided to riders.

20:58While 12 percentage fare increase is a significant amount

21:02during the time of inflation and difficult for many.

21:06We also appreciate the fare have not increased

21:09since 2016 that they cannot remain frozen

21:13for ever other source for revenue service adjustment.

21:18We would have appreciate if the fare increase

21:21could have been phase three or three or more year,

21:26but we are also pleased to see that this increase

21:29will find both capital and service improvement

21:32for coming year and that will improve

21:35the rider experience of on Guelph transit.

21:38With the new proposed fare capping approach,

21:41the students will not need to pay as much

21:45for their transit advance by allowing pay as they ride.

21:49If the students does not ride more than 34 time per month,

21:54they may actually see saving compared

21:56or to purchase a monthly or semester pass.

21:59This could provide students significant saving

22:02during the month and extent study breaks

22:04where they live in area.

22:07This would allow them to direct their financial resources

22:12to where they needed most while allowing also ensuring

22:17that they have predicted maximum transit cost

22:22each month if they ride more than 34 times.

22:26From current usage trend, students semester pass,

22:30we believe that this change will have save

22:32approximately 30% of our students money each month.

22:37Although other students will not saving

22:39as they frequent users of service

22:42and we pleased to know that students who does not benefit

22:46from the financial saving will benefit

22:48from the improvement to the system.

22:50We also pleased to see that fare increase in future

22:55are only extended to increase by approximately 2%

22:59per year starting in 2025.

23:02That student will always receive 20% discount compared

23:05that adults single rights ensuring some from

23:10of additional long-term affordability for students.

23:14The purpose strategy overall is a positive

23:16and we look forward to seeing how it will support

23:19for further improvement that we would also

23:23go transit more accessible and such on demand service

23:27which is helpful.

23:29Now who needed transportation to access in the morning

23:31or evening such as student who works in the hospitality

23:36industry shifts start between 5 a.m.

23:407 a.m. or finish between 8 to 11 p.m.

23:44When service is minimal and available.

23:47Thank you so much.

23:48Thank you for your time council.

23:50I will pass back to Nilsa.

23:52The five minutes is complete.

23:56I'll just check for the clerk.

23:57So because we had you as two separate should we?

24:00Should we?

24:02Your discretion.

24:03Okay, I think I will thank you please do complete.

24:06You were allowed to complete.

24:07Yes.

24:08Thank you council.

24:09We appreciate it.

24:10Thank you meet for sharing more about CSI support

24:12for the new Guelph transit fair strategy

24:14including fair capping to help make Guelph transit

24:17more accessible, flexible and affordable for riders.

24:21If this strategy is approved it is vital

24:23that strong communications and outreach campaign

24:26be implemented to explain a new fair model.

24:29The new fair model and ensure students

24:31and other riders maintain a positive relationship

24:34or Guelph transit.

24:35This will ensure a more seamless transition process

24:38encourage long-term rider loyalty

24:40and ensure that all users are able

24:42to make informed travel decisions.

24:45On behalf of CSI we thank you so much for allowing us

24:48the opportunity to delegate this evening

24:50and continue to work with us and Conestoga College

24:53to ensure students have safe affordable

24:56and equitable transit options available

24:58in the city of Guelph.

25:00If there are any opportunities for us to work together

25:01in the future to improve transit services

25:04for students and the broader community

25:06please do not hesitate to contact us.

25:07We're always willing to come talk to our city representatives

25:11and if there are any questions

25:13we'll be happy to answer them now.

25:14Thank you so much.

25:15Great.

25:16Thank you for delegating.

25:18Are there any questions of the delegates?

25:22Councillor Klassen and then Councillor Goller.

25:27Through you chair Downer the delegates

25:29thank you for your delegation.

25:31I did have a question you mentioned

25:33on outreach campaign about faircapping.

25:36Could you maybe just speak to what you think

25:38that might look like and you know

25:39from your perspective at CSI

25:41what would be the methods that would be most effective?

25:46I honestly would leave it to our amazing advocacy staff

25:51and our marketing team

25:52but typically we do have methods for reaching our students

25:55whether it be social media, whether it's Instagram

25:58we have email campaigns that we can reach out

26:01to talk to students about

26:02and also our student advisory committees

26:05will probably be very well informed

26:07about the new welfare campaign strategy

26:09and can talk to students on their campuses as well.

26:11So there are many avenues that we could explore

26:13but I don't wanna say anything

26:15don't quote me on anything for sure

26:17because we'd have to obviously consult with the team.

26:19No, thank you and thank you for your openness

26:21and desire to be collaborative with the city as well.

26:26Sure. Thank you.

26:29Councillor Goller.

26:32Thank you through your chair, Downer.

26:34Thank you for the presentation.

26:35I just wanted to follow up and say

26:38have you been in touch with both transit staff

26:40and talk to them about your issues?

26:42Yeah, yeah.

26:44We have our advocacy manager, he's on the money.

26:46He's perfect. Love it.

26:48I appreciate it.

26:49Thanks so much.

26:49Great to have you.

26:52Hey, thank you.

26:53Thank you.

26:54Oh, sorry, Councillor O'Rourke.

26:57Through you chair, Downer, to your delegates.

26:58Thanks so much for being here.

27:00Thanks for taking transit.

27:01Thanks for saying our drivers are nice.

27:03Appreciate that.

27:04Compliments are good, right?

27:07I'm just curious what kind of data you have

27:11or your advocacy people have

27:13that could be helpful for us in the future.

27:14So what percentage of the students are here in Guelph?

27:18And I'm especially interested in how many would work

27:20early morning shifts, early into the evening.

27:22In the summer, I hear from business owners about

27:25people can't get back from their job that ends late

27:27in the night because the Sunday bus service

27:29has been suspended, that kind of thing.

27:30So what kind of data do you have that could help us

27:33to make some informed decisions

27:36sort of in the next iteration of the transit plan?

27:39I don't have that specific kind of data on hand,

27:42but I'm happy to follow up with you through email

27:44with our advocacy manager,

27:46and we can send that data for you.

27:48What I will say is at the Guelph campus,

27:50we have 1500 students.

27:52Of that amount, 61% of them stated

27:54that public transport is the most used method

27:56of transportation, 70% stated that they do not own

28:00or have access to a personal vehicle.

28:04And so with this amount of data,

28:06we know that the Guelph transit is very important

28:09for our students.

28:10However, in regards to the early morning, late nights,

28:13we'd have to get back to you on that if that's okay.

28:16There's no rush on that,

28:17but I think it's important data points.

28:19So thank you very much.

28:19That's excellent data.

28:20Sure.

28:23Thank you.

28:24Are there any other questions?

28:26Councillor Katelyn.

28:29Thank you.

28:30Through you to CSI, I'm just wondering,

28:34do you have a similar bus program

28:36that to Guelph University

28:40in that you help subsidize the bus passes for the students

28:44or do they just buy them on their own?

28:51Well, we haven't really considered a U pass yet

28:54because we're supportive of it.

28:57And with the recent confirmation

28:58of the college's growth plans in Guelph,

29:01it'll be a good time to start those conversations.

29:03We do currently meet with Guelph transit

29:05and we'll likely begin to discuss those conversations

29:08over the next few months.

29:10But once we were waiting for the new announcement

29:12of the new campus,

29:13so now that's been announced, we're working on it.

29:19Great.

29:20Thank you.

29:21My pleasure.

29:22Are there any other questions?

29:24Okay, Shingnan, thank you for your delegation.

29:25Thank you for your time.

29:26Thank you for your time.

29:28Okay, next up we have Adam Donaldson.

29:41I just want to start by saying ditto to the CSI fellows,

29:44but I worked really hard on my speech,

29:45so I'm still going to read it.

29:49So good evening.

29:50I just want to preface this by saying

29:51I'm not against 95% of the plan.

29:54I am however against two things in the plan.

29:58They may be obvious versus the 8.3% increase in cash fares

30:02and the second is the 19% increase in the monthly pass

30:05plus the change to the loyalty program.

30:11The raise these fares within an 8.3% to 19% increase

30:14in service is tantamount to a service cut,

30:16and I think we all understand the economics of that.

30:18Now, I'm not a profit,

30:20but I'm here to tell you the future for you guys.

30:23In August, late August, early September,

30:25you are going to be inundated.

30:28Inundated with phone calls, emails, DMs

30:31from a bunch of honked off wealth transit users

30:33whose bus pass cost $80 one month

30:35and cost $95 the next.

30:39Now, no matter how good the comm strategy staff has,

30:42I'm sure they have a good one.

30:44It's not going to work.

30:45It never works.

30:46When it comes to these messages, it never works.

30:49You're going to be inundated.

30:51And I hope at least staff gives you

30:53like the 30 second elevator pitch for fair capping

30:56because I got to tell you,

30:58I've read council reports every week

31:00for pretty much the last decade.

31:04I had to read this five times

31:05and call a friend to understand the gist.

31:08And then I went to committee of the whole.

31:10I went to the attack committee meeting

31:12a couple of weeks ago, last week, I guess.

31:15I still don't think I can speak to any authority

31:18or confidence about what that means.

31:20So, all right, I'm not without the ability to compromise.

31:23I'm going to get to my compromise.

31:25My first option is leave it alone,

31:28read all our cash fare, $80 monthly pass,

31:30leave the monthly pass alone, simplicity is good.

31:33At least until we can prove that service

31:35has increased a 0.3 or 19%.

31:39I think that's fair.

31:40My second option is pass the fair capping strategy.

31:44But I want a commitment tonight

31:46from seven people around this table

31:49that when it starts in September, you're going to get it.

31:53And you're going to take half your trips

31:54every month on transit.

31:55And I want it documented, posted to the gram,

31:58tweeted, newsletter, snapchatted, whatever you want to use.

32:04I want to see city counselors on transit,

32:06half of them, half the time.

32:11I'd like to say it's time to lead by example.

32:15If this is the silver bullet,

32:17if this is the Rosetta Stone, the Holy Grail,

32:19whatever you want to call it,

32:20if this is the key to getting more people

32:21to use wealth transit,

32:23it is incumbent on council to lead by example.

32:27Rise to the occasion.

32:30I don't think that's going to happen though.

32:32I don't mean to besmirch anyone,

32:33but I really don't think that's going to happen.

32:36We all know what the fundamental problem is.

32:39It's not how you pay for wealth transit.

32:41It's not what you pay for wealth transit.

32:43It's the systemic nature of the service.

32:46The routes aren't direct enough.

32:48Every trip takes you through downtown.

32:52The frequency isn't good enough.

32:54And cross-town trips can take you 45, 50, 60, 70, 80 minutes.

33:00Nobody's going to get on wealth transit

33:02when they can take the same trip in their car

33:0510 to 15 minutes.

33:08That's just a fact.

33:09So what this does is hurt the people

33:11who are already on wealth transit,

33:13the abusers and the vain hope that calling it a loyalty card

33:17or a fair capping or get money back,

33:19that's going to get more people on the bus.

33:22Now, if that sounds all wrong, I'd like to present this.

33:27The cooperators down the street

33:29presently have a corporate bus pass.

33:32Their main building is right across the street

33:34from Guelph Central Station.

33:36But what was the primary factors of them

33:38moving out of downtown?

33:40They don't have enough parking.

33:42They're across the street from the bus station.

33:45They have a subsidized pass

33:47and they don't have enough parking.

33:50Do you think it's because of the availability

33:52of wealth transit passes?

33:53Or do you think it's because nobody there

33:55wants to use the service?

33:58I don't know, that might be rhetorical.

34:00So let's invest in wealth transit.

34:03Let's support the people who want to use it.

34:06And until then, let's leave the fares alone.

34:08That's my speech.

34:11Thank you.

34:12Thank you.

34:12Are there any questions?

34:16Is it on?

34:19Well, you ruined an opportunity to ask me questions.

34:21Oh, thank you.

34:25Okay, the next up is Steven Petrick.

34:39Good evening, members of council.

34:42My name is Steven Petrick.

34:43I'm a chair of the Transdiction Alliance of Guelph.

34:46I want to say ditto to some of the previous comments.

34:49For TAG, we applaud staff's efforts to ensure

34:52that the fair strategy satisfies customers' needs now

34:56and in the future by developing a reasonable, appealing,

34:58and easily accessible fare system.

35:01We are in support of fare capping.

35:03This simple concept in public transit fare payments

35:05eliminates the inadvertent social inequity caused

35:08by having riders pay upfront for unlimited monthly rides.

35:11Fair capping means that all passengers,

35:13including those who prefer to pay as they go,

35:15get access to the best fares based on their usage.

35:19It also allows riders the flexibility

35:21to carry over unused rides they did not use the previous month.

35:25However, we have some fair concerns

35:28about some of these changes.

35:31The days of a transit passenger making a continuous trip

35:33from point A to B are changing rapidly.

35:37To encourage more people to utilize transit,

35:40transit times are being modified to benefit

35:42the local economy, encourage more off-peak travel,

35:45and promote shorter journeys to meet climate goals.

35:48Currently, monthly pass holders

35:50have unlimited transfer times.

35:52Under fare capping, they will now be subjected

35:55to the 60-minute transfer time limit.

35:57This means riders will have to pay twice

35:59to re-enter the system after a brief stopover.

36:02This could cause a rise in complaints

36:04where there are none now.

36:06Moving to a two-hour transfer has numerous benefits,

36:08including economic, environmental,

36:10and equity-related gains.

36:12This investment will assist low-income riders

36:15for whom multiple short trips by transit

36:18could be quite expensive,

36:19and local businesses who would benefit

36:21from hop-off, hop-on behavior,

36:23something mentioned in your own transportation master plan.

36:27It will help alleviate potential barriers

36:30for people who need more time

36:31to travel or rest between transfer points,

36:33improve flexibility and access for customers

36:36to enter and exit the system

36:37and complete their journey on one fare.

36:40Having a two-hour transfer policy combats

36:42a variety of issues that relate to

36:45Guelph Transit's diverse customers,

36:47affordability, accessibility, accommodation,

36:50and social equity.

36:52Transit investment is fundamental

36:54to Guelph's expanding economy,

36:56attainment of climate objectives, and modal shift.

36:58A two-hour transfer period is a great strategy

37:00to help increase ridership,

37:02and it can be an integral component

37:04that will enable Guelph Transit to provide

37:06a high-quality, flexible public transit service

37:09to customers in an increasingly competitive environment

37:13with multiple travel alternatives.

37:16As mentioned in the Chamber's letter,

37:17every dollar invested in transit

37:19has an economic spin-off of up to $5.

37:22According to our friends

37:23at the Guelph Wellington Poverty Task Force,

37:25many transit riders earn less than the living wage of 1995

37:28and are struggling to make ends meet.

37:31The sliding-scale bus pass and other initiatives

37:33are not available to everyone.

37:35It's worrying to subject them to an above-inflation rise

37:38at a time when they are struggling to afford food,

37:41clothing, housing, and other bills.

37:43Many of these riders are members of the BIPOC community,

37:46many whom were essential workers throughout the pandemic

37:48and kept their local economy and services going.

37:51Is this how we're gonna reward them?

37:53Yes, fares have been frozen since 2016,

37:57but this 19% fare increase for adult users

37:59is too much for transit passengers to bear in one year.

38:03A preferable option would be to spread this increase

38:05over two or three years.

38:08Many transit customers are already suffering

38:10from affordability challenges,

38:12and 19% rise will compound this issue

38:15and will most certainly not entice

38:17other community members to choose transit

38:19as a transportation option.

38:21Every increase in transfers always sees a decrease

38:24in transit ridership.

38:25Even with some increase in services,

38:27it could take one to three years

38:28to recover any ridership losses.

38:31Councillor Katoan's motion tonight

38:32is a reasonable compromise.

38:34While Guelph will be on the lower end

38:36of the number of capped rides compared to others,

38:38it matches the value of service being provided today.

38:41Modest increases to match the growth of the system

38:44should always come back to council

38:46and the public for scrutiny.

38:50We also wanna remind councilors

38:51of their answers during the election on our TAG survey.

38:55Many of you supported a two hour transfer.

38:58Many of you supported fare capping,

39:00and some of you supported lowering fares.

39:03While some customers agree that Guelph Transit

39:05has been making visible improvements

39:06in some areas of service,

39:07the key to increasing public transit ridership

39:10lies in getting the basics right

39:11and keeping fares affordable.

39:13In an effort to increase ridership

39:15and encourage people to choose Guelph

39:16as a place to work, live, and play,

39:19we hope you will take our considerations

39:21into serious consideration

39:23when making your decision tonight.

39:25Thank you.

39:27Thank you.

39:28Are there any questions of the delegate?

39:33Okay.

39:34Thank you.

39:35Seeing none, thank you.

39:37Okay, so I'm gonna ask for the motion in the agenda

39:40to put you put on the floor

39:43to start off with any questions of staff.

39:46Anybody prepared to put their main motion on the floor?

39:51I councillor work, seconded by councillor Allt.

39:58Okay, so are there any questions of staff for this?

40:08Okay, councillor Billings.

40:13Through you, Madam Chair.

40:14I just wanted to ask staff,

40:16there was mention that the Transit Advisory Committee

40:19met lately and I was just wondering

40:21what were their concerns?

40:22And specifically, did they have concerns

40:25with the 60 minute transfer time

40:28and also the fair increases?

40:32Through the chair to councillor Billings,

40:34the Transit Advisory Committee,

40:35as I think was mentioned,

40:37transit staff met with them last week

40:38and they had some questions about the transfer times

40:41as well as just the fair strategy in general.

40:44But the transit staff provided them answers

40:48and responses to all of that,

40:49very similar to the responses

40:50that we've been providing to members of council

40:52and the Transit Advisory Committee

40:55did not express any concerns

40:57that they wished to have brought forward

40:58to council this evening.

41:01Okay, thank you.

41:05Are there any other questions?

41:06Because we have,

41:08councillor Caton has sent us some other motions,

41:13but they wouldn't be amendments.

41:14So my understanding, I just want to check with the court.

41:20So if this motion, if the motions before us fail

41:23and I can separate them out,

41:26then we would go to councillor Caton's motions, right?

41:29Because they're not amendments.

41:30They're actually contrary to the main motion.

41:33Councillor, our work.

41:36Thank you, chair Downer.

41:36No, I was just looking at clause three

41:38and wondering if councillor Caton's amendments

41:42have to be debated and voted on

41:46and then number three becomes an as amended.

41:56Because otherwise we're saying proceed

41:57with the transit fair strategy,

41:59we received it committed the whole.

42:02But what councillor Caton is proposing

42:03is an amendment to that fair strategy.

42:06Right, it's contrary to this,

42:08to the three motions that we have before us, her motions.

42:13So my understanding is that we would have to,

42:16in order for hers to get on the floor,

42:17I say these two, these would have to fail,

42:23probably one, two and three.

42:25And then we could entertain councillor Caton's motions.

42:31So through you, chair Downer,

42:35number one is the Kids Ride Free Program.

42:37So I would like not want to see that fail.

42:39So I think that one's clean.

42:41I would take the clerk's advice.

42:46And then I'm just concerned,

42:47maybe we need to hear from staff,

42:49the Fair Capping Loyalty Program itself, as outlined,

42:53is valid and I think there's support for that.

42:56The question is going to be around phasing in the costs,

43:01right?

43:02So I don't want two to fail either

43:04because we want the opportunity

43:06to be able to implement the strategy,

43:08but over a longer period of time.

43:09So I don't know what the right way to proceed is.

43:17Just the point of order.

43:19Could we please have one, two and three separated?

43:22So I do believe that councillor Mark is correct.

43:25It was my intent to separate them,

43:27but I would ask of seeing as councillor Caton had direct,

43:31had worked with staff on the motions,

43:35how did you envision these,

43:37were they to replace any of the ones before?

43:39So were they in addition or like,

43:41how did you envision these, if these were,

43:44if this failed and those came?

43:48So to the chair and to council,

43:50and I'll also look to Mr. O'Brien in case he thinks

43:54that I'm answering incorrectly here,

43:56certainly agree with councillor O'Rourke

43:57that number one stands on its own.

43:59Number two does state that the Fair Capping Loyalty Program

44:02outlined in attachment one be approved.

44:05And so I think for councillor Caton's motion

44:07to be considered, you would need to vote down number two,

44:10because it no longer is valid,

44:12because you're not approving it

44:13as it's outlined in attachment one,

44:15you're approving a revision to it

44:17as per councillor Caton's motion.

44:19So I would think that you would need to vote specific

44:23to the Fair Capping,

44:24you would need to vote down recommendation number two,

44:27and instead consider councillor Caton's motion

44:32as an amendment to the Fair Capping Loyalty Program.

44:37And then the transfer time really falls

44:42within recommendation number three.

44:44So I think that's the challenge

44:46because if I'm understanding councillor Caton's intention

44:48and I don't wanna speak for her,

44:50I believe the only remaining issue

44:52that she's looking to amend is the transfer time.

44:55So I would hate to see you vote down all of number three

44:58because then you lose everything else.

45:00So I almost think that councillor Caton's motion

45:03related to the transfer time is an amendment to number three,

45:07that in essence, again, not putting words in your mouths,

45:10that staff be delegated the authority to proceed

45:12with the remaining initiatives,

45:15except for the transfer time,

45:17because councillor Caton's motion

45:18would change the way the initiatives.

45:21So I'm not sure that I've helped.

45:23I'll look to Mr. O'Brien to see

45:24if he wants to comment further.

45:27Through you, our two Madam Chair,

45:30the councillor Caton's second motion on transfer times

45:35is likely, and again, with complete respect to councillor Caton,

45:38I'll let them respond as they see fit,

45:41but the fair transfer time is,

45:45there's just a little bit of a nuance there

45:46because of number three as DCO Clackbush outlined,

45:50you're approving in whole effectively

45:53the remaining recommendations in attachment one

45:57to the transit fair strategy report,

45:59save and accept for that one nuanced piece

46:01around transfer time.

46:02So I think what DCO Clackbush articulated

46:06for clause two is accurate,

46:08and I think for clause three

46:09of the existing staff recommendation,

46:11it may be beneficial if council so wishes to adopt number three

46:17so that the totality of the transit fair strategy

46:21as it's outlined in attachment one

46:22is approved and adopted if that's council's wish again,

46:26but then councillor Caton's second motion could be tabled

46:31so that there's a degree of specificity

46:33around the transfer time component of that.

46:37I believe, I think that's addressing

46:39what councillor Caton's approach was,

46:41but again, I'll defer to her

46:42and we're happy to continue to work council through this

46:44if that's of benefit.

46:45Okay, but I agree, except number two is changed

46:51in her first motion that she was going to bring forward.

46:57So let's just go through this, I think,

47:00let's go through number one, as we've said,

47:03and then we'll get to number two.

47:04Yeah, sorry if I made you down or we're, if I may.

47:07Sorry, Dan, sorry, I was scams.

47:09Thank you, I'm sorry.

47:11Only because I've been down this road before,

47:13I would really like to just try to address

47:18councillor Caton's motions through amendments,

47:22simply because if we vote against these recommendations

47:26in order to hear councillor Caton's motions,

47:29if councillor Caton's motions don't pass,

47:31we then no longer, we don't have anything to vote on

47:33because we voted on that all.

47:35So I'd really encourage the chair to work with clerks

47:38to try and treat this as amendments

47:39so that we do pass something tonight,

47:41just in the event neither pass, correct?

47:46Yes, that's a possibility.

47:48My concern is with the way the motions were presented to us

47:52from councillor Caton, they're not really amendments.

47:57The second one you could add it on as an amendment

47:59with the exception of, but the first motion around the phasing

48:04in monthly cap isn't, that's my understanding,

48:08it's contrary to you, councillor Alton.

48:10Just a point of order, when I'm reading that motion,

48:12number two, I believe that councillor Caton

48:14can easily amend that motion,

48:17and then it becomes the recommendation as amended.

48:21So consequently we can deal with it.

48:24My colleague here is ducking on his desk.

48:28And I think it would be quite appropriate,

48:30it will either succeed or fail based on its merit.

48:38Councillor Caton.

48:40Thank you.

48:42Through you to clerk, staff and whomever this applies to.

48:48I had intended them as amendments

48:51because I feel that both of them are kind of in line,

48:56but minor modifications of the overall plan.

49:00So if they need to be reworded by someone

49:04in order to make them amendments,

49:07then I'm happy to read whatever that wording is,

49:11but that's how I intended them.

49:18Councillor Goller.

49:21Through your chair, donor, once again, when I read this,

49:26when you speak about them being contrary,

49:27I think it would be contrary if we were to move away

49:30from the loyalty program.

49:31As I see it, it's a minor adjustment.

49:33So you think it's a judgment there?

49:36Okay, so I don't know if the wording we have is correct.

49:41Mr. Ryan.

49:42Yeah, through you to your chair, donor.

49:44My suggestion is again, I'm sensing just from based

49:47on some comments that were stated that clause one

49:49of the staff recommendations can be moved and addressed.

49:52Councillor Alts rightly so asked for that to be separated.

49:55That can easily be done.

49:56Number two to satisfy Councillor Caton's intent can be moved.

50:00And then that is of the staff recommendations.

50:03And then Councillor Caton's first proposed amendment

50:06could be moved as an amendment.

50:08I will simply just defer to DCO Clark Bush on that

50:11to make sure that the wording we've got from Councillor

50:13Caton's motion doesn't contradict or remove any clauses

50:17that might be outlined in the attachment one

50:22of the fair capping loyalty program report.

50:25So that's essentially what I want to do, chair downer

50:28is ensure that that first motion is moved.

50:31The staff recommendation, it can be amended

50:33to Councillor Gibson's point,

50:35but that we're capturing all of Councillor Caton's intent

50:39in the amendment without disposing of any other aspects

50:42that staff are requiring through the adoption

50:44of that staff recommendation.

50:45That's my concern.

50:47So I'm just taking a moment to reread them both.

50:50I believe for clause number two, that that is correct

50:53that Councillor Caton's wording would instead capture

50:57everything that we need for clause number two.

50:59The same is not true for clause number three,

51:01but for clause number two related

51:03to the fair capping loyalty program,

51:05I believe that it does capture everything.

51:07It changes how it's being approved.

51:10So what the pace is, it's directing how to now manage

51:16that financial impact in 2023

51:18because it's a mid-year budget change.

51:21And then it still refers the balance of the costs

51:25for 2024 to 2027 to the upcoming multi-year budget process.

51:30So I believe that we are fine

51:32that number two could be wholly replaced

51:35by Councillor Caton's motion.

51:37Then for number three, that was the one

51:39that would actually need to be done as an amendment

51:42to a portion of number three.

51:44So just to be clear, so we're good with number one,

51:47number two, it would have to be replaced.

51:54So I'm just, how do you, so...

52:00Through you, Chair Downright,

52:01it's simply just moving the existing staff recommendation.

52:05And then the amendment is that that recommendation

52:08be replaced with the motion from Councillor Caton

52:12as basically a complete and whole amendment

52:14to that clause two and staff recommendation.

52:16Let's get through those two

52:18and then we'll deal with number three.

52:20Is that okay with everybody?

52:23Okay, so on the number one, separated out

52:27that the kids run the kids' ride-free program,

52:30is there anyone opposed, or at first,

52:33are there any questions on this?

52:35Any discussion?

52:38Is anyone opposed to number one?

52:41Okay, that passes.

52:44Number two, oh, Councillor Gibson.

52:48Are you talking about number two?

52:50Yeah, you mentioned the last one

52:52that we could ask questions to staff.

52:54I just wanted to give staff a chance

52:56to respond through you, Chair Downright to staff.

53:00I heard in the delegations a lot about,

53:02this was helping with affordability,

53:03the Fair Capping Lawsly Program up to a point,

53:06but then I also heard that it was creating barriers

53:09with some of the increases in the fairs.

53:11Can I just ask staff to help,

53:13if they wanted to provide a response

53:15to some of the things we heard?

53:17I understood that the Fair Capping

53:19would get people to that monthly pass level quicker,

53:22and that would allow them to have unlimited rides

53:24up to a point earlier,

53:26but I wanted to give staff an opportunity

53:27to respond to some of the things we heard.

53:31Through Chair Downright to Council Gibson,

53:34thank you for the opportunity.

53:35I mean, I think there are always going to be challenges

53:37anytime we're talking about fairs

53:38related to affordability for individuals and transit.

53:42We do pass costs along to the riders.

53:44It is a subsidized service

53:45because it is in the greater interest of the community,

53:47obviously, to have transit system,

53:49but there is a difficult point

53:52at which we're setting the threshold

53:54for how much we're willing to pass along to riders.

53:56The recommendation before you

53:57that transit staff have brought forward,

54:00I think we stand by and support

54:02that we were trying to find that balance.

54:04We have not had a fair increase in many years,

54:07and so part of this is playing catch up a little bit.

54:10So recognizing that is a big jump for some riders,

54:13but it's not a big jump for the majority of our riders.

54:17But I don't want to sound like I'm being dismissive

54:19of the fact that it is a jump for some of our riders,

54:22but I do think also just talking about

54:24that accessibility piece,

54:26some of the benefits of fair capping is exactly that.

54:30You no longer have to buy your pass

54:32at the beginning of the month

54:33and know if you're going to need 16 rides

54:37or 34 rides or 44 rides.

54:40You're not having to take that financial risk

54:42at the beginning of the month.

54:43And so while there is a financial impact

54:47for some of our riders, for sure,

54:49I think we were also trying to balance

54:51that really important affordability question

54:53so that individuals can,

54:56they don't have to decide on the first of the month

54:58what their transit needs are going to be for the month,

55:00but then in the flip side, they're not penalized

55:02if they don't have the financial resources available

55:04to purchase a full monthly pass at the start of the month.

55:07They can ride until they reach that capping point,

55:10and then they're done for the month.

55:12So ultimately, obviously we look to council

55:15for the direction on this,

55:16but we stand by the staff recommendation

55:19because we felt that it was the right balance.

55:23Thank you.

55:26Are there any other questions?

55:28On number two, Councillor Goller.

55:31And through your chair, Donor,

55:32to staff, just on the point of what proportion of riders

55:39do use the full pass.

55:42So based on our data,

55:44how many people are currently using,

55:47that would be looking at paying the 95-20

55:49as opposed to a lower amount?

55:54So through chair Donor,

55:55I'm just going to pause for a moment

55:56and let transit staff help me with this one,

56:02just grabbing that data for you.

57:43Thanks for your patience.

57:45I think Courtney McDonald's coming down

57:48to help answer that question.

57:50Courtney, if you don't remember her from the presentation,

57:53is our manager of business services,

57:55and also Ujjwal is here, wonderful.

57:58Thank you.

57:59Yeah, so just to make sure we've heard the question correctly,

58:03so you're looking for the number

58:04of our existing monthly pass holders

58:07who would be impacted by the jump up to the 90?

58:13The 95-20, yes, please.

58:16For you chair Donor to councillors,

58:1818% of our customers would be impacted.

58:21Okay, okay, that is helpful.

58:24Thank you.

58:26Just so that I confirm if my math is correct,

58:29at the proposed fare of $2.80 per ride,

58:36it would be looking at the current fare

58:39would be the current cost of the pass.

58:43It would be about 28 rides.

58:46So at 28 rides, there would be no increase, right?

58:53In cost.

59:00Through you councillor to councillor,

59:02the current cap would be,

59:03and the proposal would be 34 rides currently at $80.

59:07It's 28, 29 rides.

59:0928, 29, okay, okay, that's the, okay, perfect.

59:12Thank you very much for the clarification.

59:13I appreciate it.

59:16Are there any more comments or questions or comments?

59:26Okay, so I just want to be clear

59:28what we're voting on now.

59:29So did you, do you, or don't, no, it's not, we're not,

59:36we do it after we're gonna see.

59:39So this number two is about the fare

59:42capital loyalty program as outlined.

59:45Then we'll put on, my understanding is

59:48councillor Caton's motion.

59:50Yes, sure.

59:51We'll then change schedule,

59:52we'll then change attachment one.

59:54Currently on the floor,

59:55all three motions have been moved and seconded.

59:57They've been asked to be separated.

59:58So council's now dealing with the second clause.

1:00:01If council wishes to amend this per councillor

1:00:05Caton's motion, it would be incumbent on

1:00:07councillor Caton to move that amendment

1:00:08and have it be duly seconded.

1:00:10And then that would, we would capture that

1:00:13accurately in the minutes for DCO Clackbush's comments

1:00:17as effectively a wholesale replacement

1:00:19of the existing motion that's on the floor

1:00:21number two from staff recommendation.

1:00:22So we would replace that and we can put that on the screen

1:00:25if you'd like chair down or for council

1:00:27to be able to see councillor Caton.

1:00:29Okay, so it's appropriate for the amendment

1:00:31to come right now then.

1:00:32That's correct.

1:00:33Okay.

1:00:34So council Caton, do you want to do that?

1:00:37Yes, please.

1:00:46So, and do you want to speak to this motion

1:00:48before we go to questions?

1:00:51Yes, please.

1:00:54So through you.

1:00:56I know that affordability, equity and accessibility

1:00:58are a part of our strategic plan.

1:01:00I know staff are very committed to delivering

1:01:02on all of those values.

1:01:04And I think they did a great job with the transit fair review.

1:01:06The cost they propose brings us in line

1:01:08with neighboring municipalities

1:01:10and the fair capping program they've created

1:01:12will make transit much cheaper for many riders.

1:01:14And I love that.

1:01:17So when I'm talking about the fair fairs,

1:01:20I'm not referring to the cost per rides

1:01:21or any of the age silos.

1:01:23I'm talking about the jump in cost for bus passes

1:01:26and how that's going to affect the 18% of riders

1:01:28who it impacts.

1:01:30We're in the midst of food, rent, mortgage inflation,

1:01:32our property taxes have gone up.

1:01:34I just want to make that cumulative jump incremental

1:01:37over three years via the fair capping system

1:01:40so that it's more manageable for people to budget.

1:01:43So all of the bus passes are capped at two less rides

1:01:46the first year, one less ride the second year,

1:01:49and then back up to the 34 rides a year

1:01:51the staff ever commended on the third year.

1:01:54So if we're interested in keeping driveways small,

1:01:57adding more housing and smaller spaces,

1:01:59reducing the amount of parking we need throughout the city

1:02:01to help with rainwater capture and reduced emissions,

1:02:04we should be deeply investing

1:02:05in making transit affordable and efficient.

1:02:08And transit adoption is a key part of our race to zero

1:02:11and our affordability increases adoption.

1:02:14It also helps with road safety,

1:02:16keeping people who are drinking off the road,

1:02:18investments in transit should be considered

1:02:19a part of our vision zero.

1:02:21The $19,900 estimated impact in 2023,

1:02:28which should be less with every incrementally increase

1:02:32is a small price tag for the investment in equity,

1:02:35affordability, reduction in emissions,

1:02:37and an investment in local business.

1:02:39Keeping these increases manageable

1:02:42helps people get to and from work,

1:02:44and it helps the economy by giving people more

1:02:46to spend outside of the necessities.

1:02:48And these disproportionately impacts the small businesses,

1:02:52especially in our downtown transit hub.

1:02:54I also talked to Mike Shriners team

1:02:56about provincial grants for transit,

1:02:58the dedicated public transit fund funded

1:03:00through our gas tax revenue,

1:03:02gives grants to communities who have public transit systems.

1:03:05And this is based 70% on ridership

1:03:08and 30% on population numbers.

1:03:10So the best way to get provincial funding

1:03:11is to invest in ridership.

1:03:13And having a budget friendly increase

1:03:15is a cost effective method to reach that goal.

1:03:18So I really think that this is a small price tag

1:03:20for an extra two rides a month for one year

1:03:23and an extra one ride next year.

1:03:24And I think it'll make a big difference

1:03:26for the 18% of people who are living paycheck to paycheck.

1:03:30And I hope you'll support my motion

1:03:31to make a monthly bear capping system

1:03:33a little bit more manageable for riders.

1:03:37Thank you.

1:03:38Are there any questions?

1:03:39Councillor Allt and then Councillor Allt.

1:03:41Just the comments on the motion.

1:03:43May I or you would?

1:03:45Maybe we should go to questions first.

1:03:47We could just to keep that in order.

1:03:49Are there questions of staff or the mover?

1:03:53Councillor Awerke or Councillor Goller?

1:03:54Did you, is that what you had your hand up for?

1:03:56Yes, actually I have an amendment to the amendment.

1:03:58I just sent to the clerks.

1:04:01And maybe if you wanna have the questions first,

1:04:04but my amendment is to actually reduce

1:04:09the price increase this year

1:04:10and extend the motion as presented by Councillor Caton

1:04:15by one more year.

1:04:16So it takes us one year longer to get up to the 34 rides.

1:04:23So that there would be nearly no impact

1:04:27to the riders in September.

1:04:33So I'll see if I have a seconder.

1:04:36And I am asking in my amendment to the motion

1:04:42that the fair capping loyalty program be approved

1:04:45with a monthly cap of 28 rides this year.

1:04:50Then we go to 30 next year, 32 and then 34.

1:04:55So it just gives us one more step down

1:04:57so that it's the impact to residents

1:05:00is spread out a little bit longer.

1:05:02And knowing that it will only significantly impact

1:05:0619% of riders, I think that the benefits are outweigh the costs.

1:05:14Okay, just do we have a seconder?

1:05:16And then I'm gonna go to call the DCO.

1:05:20Do we have a seconder for that?

1:05:22Councillor Caton seconds that.

1:05:24Okay.

1:05:25Sorry, I wasn't seconding it, I had a question.

1:05:29Is there a seconder?

1:05:31Okay, Councillor Boussette, I'll second it.

1:05:33I just, DCO Clark had put up her hand

1:05:36and so I'd like to, Clark Bush has put up her hand

1:05:38and I'd like to give her the floor opportunity.

1:05:41Thank you, Chair Downer.

1:05:42I just wanted to mention that that is not something

1:05:45that staff have costed.

1:05:46And so we wouldn't be able to tell you in this moment

1:05:49what the estimated financial impact is in 2023.

1:05:51So there would be an estimated financial impact

1:05:53and we would have to work with finance

1:05:55and I would think you might need to change the wording

1:05:59to simply say to manage the estimated financial impact

1:06:01and take out the of and the amount

1:06:03because we haven't done the costing on that.

1:06:08Are there any other questions of staff?

1:06:12Comments, Councillor Caton, you have comment on this?

1:06:20Yes, through you.

1:06:22I think that we do need a gradual fair increase

1:06:26and that there's no costing on it.

1:06:27And I'm not a fan of making a decision

1:06:33without having proper background information last minute.

1:06:38And while I do appreciate the spirit

1:06:42behind Councillor Goller's motion,

1:06:44I think that I would prefer something that had more data.

1:06:54Okay, thank you.

1:06:56Are there any other questions, comments?

1:07:00Oh, Councillor Gibson.

1:07:02Thank you, through you, Chair Downer.

1:07:04So I guess, sorry, DCO, Clapp Bush answered my first question.

1:07:09I'm gonna ask that question again, but the costing,

1:07:12I won't be supporting this one just because it is,

1:07:14it does seem a bit like an unknown,

1:07:17but maybe a question to staff on Councillor Caton's amendments.

1:07:21Do you have costing?

1:07:22I'll ask the same question when it comes to that amendment.

1:07:26Okay, thank you.

1:07:28Councillor Caron, did you have a question?

1:07:32Okay, so there's no more questions or comments

1:07:35on Councillor Goller's amendment, right?

1:07:39So I'm gonna call the vote, all those opposed.

1:07:45And I would say there's most opposed

1:07:49except one Councillor Goller, in favor.

1:07:52Okay, thank you.

1:07:53So we're gonna go back to you, Councillor Caton's amendment.

1:07:55And I think I had, I think Councillor Kerran,

1:07:59did you or work or Kerran, did you have a question on this?

1:08:02No questions, comments.

1:08:03Any questions?

1:08:05Councillor Orwork.

1:08:06Thank you, Chair Downer, through you to staff,

1:08:08the motion is saying that we will fund this year's variants

1:08:13through the budget variants

1:08:15and the balance to be referred to them all to your budget.

1:08:19I'm wondering, given a healthy positive variance,

1:08:24is there any benefit to just directing,

1:08:26to allocate funds to cover that integration

1:08:30over the next couple of years, to just decide tonight,

1:08:34rather than to fund this year through positive variants

1:08:38and then the subsequent years through the budget process?

1:08:44Through you, Madam Chair, I would just say be cautious

1:08:47because you haven't seen the whole budget yet.

1:08:51I think the things we moved out of the budget

1:08:53from last year to this year for next year,

1:08:56probably in the 6% range.

1:08:59Unless you're comfortable with that more to it,

1:09:01I would just be cautious at this stage.

1:09:04Again, that will all come to you in the fall,

1:09:06but just given what we know, what we've moved off,

1:09:10there's a lot coming your way for the 24 cycle.

1:09:15Okay, so through you, Madam Chair, to staff,

1:09:18just for clarity, and because we're talking about stuff,

1:09:20we've seen on email, but that isn't documented anywhere

1:09:22for the public record.

1:09:24What is the annual cost this year of,

1:09:28actually, I think it's in Councillor Caton's motion.

1:09:31We're talking about $19,000 this year, right?

1:09:35So is that the full budget impact is $19,000

1:09:38in order to really ease our most loyal customers

1:09:43into the fair increase?

1:09:45Is that correct, the number, right?

1:09:48Through Chair Downer, yes, the impact in 2023

1:09:52is approximately, because this is an estimate,

1:09:56$19,900.

1:09:58Great.

1:09:58The impact is bigger in subsequent year.

1:10:01Okay, thanks.

1:10:07Could I ask what that number is in subsequent years,

1:10:10the numbers?

1:10:14To Chair Downer, I believe it is in the $132,000 range

1:10:20for 2024.

1:10:24Is that correct?

1:10:27Okay.

1:10:28So this year it's $19,000,

1:10:30and then next year it would be $132,000.

1:10:36Right?

1:10:40Okay, I've comments.

1:10:42Councillor Allt.

1:10:44Thank you very much, Chair Downer.

1:10:46First and foremost, I do wanna thank staff for a report,

1:10:49which I believe is important for transit moving forward.

1:10:53Like Adam Donaldson, who's now reporting again,

1:10:58I do believe that 95 to 99% of this has got its spot on.

1:11:02I am very sympathetic to the sentiment

1:11:05of Councillor Caton's motion, and I will be supporting it.

1:11:09One of the concerns that I have is that we know right now

1:11:12that with every fair increase,

1:11:14we at least temporarily reduce ridership,

1:11:17and at a time when we are trying to increase ridership,

1:11:19I think that's a problem.

1:11:21Although I would not suggest that we reduce our fares

1:11:23by 19% to encourage more ridership.

1:11:27I think the message that should be sent

1:11:30is that we're not going to be increasing them

1:11:32in a draconian fashion.

1:11:35I also wish to point out that what we're dealing with

1:11:39in Guelph and we're dealing with everywhere

1:11:41is not housing and it's not food

1:11:43and it's not transportation.

1:11:45It's an affordability crisis on all three of those.

1:11:48And this is one thing that the city of Guelph can do.

1:11:51And even if in the second year, it's $132,000,

1:11:54we are talking about a miniscule amount

1:11:57compared to a $400 million budget.

1:12:00We also similarly have an environmental crisis.

1:12:03We have electrified buses that we're looking forward

1:12:05to putting on the street,

1:12:07and we certainly want people to be riding them.

1:12:09We do want to get people out of cars.

1:12:11We want to incentivize those people.

1:12:13Every car on the road, whether it's electric or gas,

1:12:17whether we think that we're being virtuous

1:12:19by driving an electric car or not,

1:12:20it is an environmental cost.

1:12:23Consequently, if we can reduce some of those

1:12:26through public transit and also reduce the wear and tear

1:12:29on our own roads, because we have fewer vehicles,

1:12:32we're doing a service to the community.

1:12:34So as a consequence, I think this is a good opportunity

1:12:37to say to people, take the better way

1:12:40and we're not going to raise the fares 19%.

1:12:46At Councillor Kerron.

1:12:48My comments are, you know,

1:12:50a staff brought us forward a recommendation

1:12:51because we have a policy about subsidizing transit.

1:12:54They did their best work.

1:12:55They brought us transit fares for all the right reasons

1:13:00in this economy.

1:13:01And at the same time, while I'm saying, you know,

1:13:04kudos to staff for doing that,

1:13:07Councillor Allt's comments and our delegation's comments

1:13:10are not going unheard because we,

1:13:12as a council, have a different lens.

1:13:14And our lens is to reflect what's going on in the community

1:13:20and affordability is absolutely an issue.

1:13:22I originally, you know, I reread the report

1:13:26after this discussion started with the amended motions

1:13:30and the reasons why staff wanted to stick

1:13:32with our fair capping policy and I thought they were sound.

1:13:35This evening though, I've been reminded by our delegates

1:13:38that we're talking about pass holders

1:13:41who are our most loyal customers,

1:13:44who don't have any other pass holders

1:13:47are the ones that don't have another form of transportation.

1:13:51They're the ones that are getting to and from work

1:13:53solely dependent on the passes.

1:13:55And that's a demographic that where affordability

1:13:58is more of a challenge.

1:14:00So I am going to support the amendments

1:14:02because I think for pass holders,

1:14:05this could make or break their decision to buy a bus pass.

1:14:11So, you know, I think we have to look

1:14:14at that particular demographic and their needs.

1:14:16And that's a unique lens of council

1:14:18and doesn't say anything to a negative

1:14:21about the staff recommendations.

1:14:25I would call a point of order in a friendly way

1:14:28to Councillor Allt who used the word draconian.

1:14:30And I do not believe that staff recommendations

1:14:33were in any way described in that nature

1:14:36and would ask for a kind of apology.

1:14:38And as I know, he would.

1:14:40Just a point of privilege.

1:14:42The draconian was a statement on the cost of the fare,

1:14:44not on staff.

1:14:45I don't think we have any dragos on staff.

1:14:48Thank you, Councillor Allt.

1:14:52Councillor Allt.

1:14:53Thank you, Chair Downer, through you to staff.

1:14:57It's a comment really.

1:14:59If we didn't raise rates for transit since 2016

1:15:04to a degree that those were our decisions

1:15:06to not raise those rates.

1:15:07And so I'm going to support the motion

1:15:10because the transit riders,

1:15:11the most loyal ones have continued riding

1:15:13through the pandemic and they've come back.

1:15:16And it's incumbent on us to not be raising them

1:15:19to such a degree this year.

1:15:21But I really appreciate the transit staff.

1:15:23I mean, you can tell the care around,

1:15:26okay, we're going to increase the cost of a bus bay

1:15:28by this much.

1:15:29We can tell that you are very attentive

1:15:32to the business fundamentals of the transit system.

1:15:34I appreciate that.

1:15:36And at the same time, we are reflecting the needs

1:15:39of our affordability in the community

1:15:41and to not give the most loyal users a fair hike

1:15:45like this all in one shot.

1:15:48So I'll support the motion.

1:15:53Councillor Gibson.

1:15:56Thank you, through you, Chair Downer.

1:15:58Again, I'm still on the fence a little bit

1:15:59on how I'm going here,

1:16:00but I just maybe wanted to give staff another opportunity

1:16:02because they did all the legwork here

1:16:05and they did a great presentation on their consultation

1:16:08with the Transit Advisory Committee.

1:16:12What were the sentiments on the Transit Advisory Committee

1:16:15specifically on the fare increase?

1:16:18And I guess I'm just relying

1:16:21on staff's professional judgment here

1:16:23to let us know what the fallout would be if we,

1:16:27like are we expecting a dip in ridership

1:16:29when we do this fair hike?

1:16:31I think that's an expectation that staff would be aware of.

1:16:38So through Chair Downer to Councillor Gibson,

1:16:40first what I'll say is that our Transit staff,

1:16:42I will echo what has been said,

1:16:45they're very, very good at what they do

1:16:46and they use a model of ferroelasticity

1:16:49and anytime they consider a change to transit pricing,

1:16:52they also then factor in whether we will see a drop

1:16:55in ridership as a result.

1:16:57And that's as scientific about it as I can get

1:16:59because I'm not the expert they are,

1:17:01but they can explain more about ferroelasticity

1:17:04probably at another date.

1:17:05If you want to hear the more detailed financial modeling

1:17:08that they do.

1:17:09What I will say is that I don't want to put words

1:17:14in the mouths of the individual members

1:17:16of the Transit Advisory Committee

1:17:17because that wouldn't be fair,

1:17:18but just simply to reiterate that this was all provided

1:17:21to them, they were asked if there was any other feedback

1:17:23that they wanted to provide to council,

1:17:25they had the opportunity to either submit correspondence

1:17:27or register to delegate if they had concerns

1:17:30and they didn't.

1:17:31And that, and the other than obviously asking lots

1:17:35of great questions, they recognize that we needed

1:17:39to do a transit increase.

1:17:40It has been a number of years.

1:17:41And then the other thing that I just want to make sure

1:17:43that I, because I haven't mentioned this yet tonight,

1:17:46we do also have lots of other options

1:17:48to address affordability.

1:17:49Our affordable bus pass and council was very bold

1:17:52in the tiered affordable bus pass that you approved,

1:17:56as well as we have other options are welcome

1:17:58to Guelph pass, et cetera.

1:17:59So we do have other ways that we make sure

1:18:02that we're addressing affordability of Guelph transit.

1:18:06And so as I say, I just, I didn't want to omit mentioning

1:18:11that affordable bus pass simply because you as council

1:18:14made a very, very bold decision on that,

1:18:17the expanding that affordable bus pass to be

1:18:20that three tiered system so that at its lowest,

1:18:23somebody who has the greatest financial need is paying,

1:18:26I believe as low as $4 a month.

1:18:28So that is available regardless

1:18:30of what decisions you make this evening.

1:18:34That's so posted, Jim.

1:18:36Thank you.

1:18:37And through you, Madam Chair,

1:18:38I will be supporting the motion.

1:18:39I've had the privilege the past couple of months

1:18:42of completing taxes for individuals

1:18:45that are low and moderate income.

1:18:47And what comes to mind are two custodians are working

1:18:50and they would not qualify for the subsidized bus pass

1:18:53that shared their struggle post pandemic

1:18:57in terms of their income and not picking up over time.

1:19:00They were in schools and the struggle

1:19:03of trying to make ends meet to the point

1:19:06where they were looking at taking days off work

1:19:08because they couldn't afford bus pass groceries,

1:19:11things like that.

1:19:12I know that the community is struggling

1:19:15and I think affordability for me is the main reason

1:19:19that I will be supporting this.

1:19:24Are there any other comments or questions?

1:19:30Council Gowler.

1:19:32Thank you, through you, Chair.

1:19:34I'm still struggling a little bit with the motion.

1:19:40One of the conversations that I had with staff

1:19:42is why are we increasing the price at all?

1:19:45And they rightfully said that's

1:19:46because that's what council has said.

1:19:48So we had said a direction that we need to recuperate

1:19:51so much money from bus fares.

1:19:55Now, in my mind, we have declared as council

1:20:00and there is a climate crisis.

1:20:01I would love to see free transit for everyone

1:20:04but that is not on the table today.

1:20:07So with your patience, I would like to move another motion.

1:20:12Let's see if I have to, we're looking at the cost increase.

1:20:17Goes from 80 to 89.60 with the proposed amendments

1:20:22from Councillor Caitlin.

1:20:24I would like to move another amendment to the amendment

1:20:28that brings it from 80 to 84 dollars in year one.

1:20:33And then so that it's instead of being a $10 increase

1:20:37and then another $6 increase over the next couple of years,

1:20:41we make it $5, $5, $5 to ease in.

1:20:45So the motion that I have just sent to the clerks,

1:20:50it has removed the estimate,

1:20:52but it is to set the cap at 30 rides this year.

1:20:5832 rides in 2025 and 34 rides in 2026.

1:21:05Once again, just to ease in that increase a little bit more.

1:21:13Is there a seconder for this motion?

1:21:18Okay, I don't see it seeing none.

1:21:24Are there, Councillor Gibson?

1:21:27Just comments if you don't mind, Chair Downer.

1:21:31Go ahead.

1:21:32Okay, thanks.

1:21:33So I understand the merits of the motion.

1:21:38I understand why we want to do it.

1:21:41But I also firmly believe that we have to place value

1:21:44on the public service.

1:21:47I know the marketing strategy perhaps saying free transit.

1:21:50I cringe when I hear the term free transit.

1:21:53Someone is always paying for that service.

1:21:56When we say it's free, it's basically saying

1:21:58it's only free for you, you, the person riding it.

1:22:01Everyone else is paying for it.

1:22:03So I'm gonna support the motion

1:22:05because I believe in the merits of the motion.

1:22:08That being said, I'm ideologically fixed

1:22:12on making sure that we are placing value

1:22:14on our public services and ensuring

1:22:16that the public understand that there is a cost

1:22:19and a value associated with providing those services.

1:22:21It's very important that the public are aware of that.

1:22:24The term free, it really devalues it in my mind

1:22:28because it is a very costly service.

1:22:30It's heavily subsidized and for good reasons,

1:22:32for all the reasons that have been mentioned.

1:22:34But I think it's just important for the record

1:22:36that it's understood that there is no free transit.

1:22:39It's paid by somebody.

1:22:40That being said, I'm happy to support this motion

1:22:43for the time being to ease the implementation

1:22:46of the fair increase.

1:22:49Okay, are there any more questions or comments?

1:22:53So we're voting right now on the amendment

1:22:56by Councillor Cathon around the changing

1:23:00the fair capping loyalty program that the numbers in that.

1:23:05So is anyone opposed to the amendment?

1:23:13Okay, seeing none, then that's unanimously passed

1:23:19as amended.

1:23:20So now I wanna vote on the whole motion,

1:23:24number two, as amended.

1:23:29Any comments, questions?

1:23:32I call the vote.

1:23:33Is anyone opposed?

1:23:37I see none, that passes.

1:23:40Second one, Mr. O'Brien told me he had a solution

1:23:45for this one.

1:23:45And I just, and thanks to,

1:23:50I just wanna thank our staff for helping us work

1:23:52through this work and the patience

1:23:55and the motions that are coming now.

1:24:01Thank you, Chair Downer.

1:24:03And I don't wanna speak for Councillor Caton

1:24:05so she can certainly correct me if I'm not correct here.

1:24:10But effectively the staff recommendation can be moved.

1:24:14And then Councillor Caton can move an amendment

1:24:16to the staff recommendation that is as was submitted,

1:24:20we can put it on screen and effectively it would read.

1:24:23And as it relates directly to transfer times

1:24:26and the continuation of Councillor Cain's motion.

1:24:28So it's just allowing again, the rationale for that is,

1:24:31and I'll defer to DCO clock Bush for further clarity.

1:24:34It confirms all of the direction that's inclusive

1:24:37in the staff recommendation of number three,

1:24:39while also I believe accomplishing

1:24:41what Councillor Caton's intent is.

1:24:43But again, I respectfully defer to Councillor Caton

1:24:45and DCO clock Bush to confirm that.

1:24:49Okay, so we have number three was already moved and sector.

1:24:54So now would be a time for Councillor Caton

1:24:57to bring forward her amendment, correct?

1:25:01Okay, would you like to do that?

1:25:03Councillor Caton.

1:25:04Yes, please.

1:25:07So.

1:25:08And just to check, is there a seconder for this motion?

1:25:12Councillor Gough.

1:25:12Yes, Councillor Allt.

1:25:14Okay, okay, go ahead.

1:25:23So as it relates directly to transfer times

1:25:25that the fair transfer time is outlined in section 4.23,

1:25:30attachment one of the transit fair strategy report

1:25:33dated April 4th, 2023 be amended to extend

1:25:36the permitted transfer time to 90 minutes

1:25:38and the staff be directed to manage

1:25:40the estimated financial impact of $10,000 in 2023

1:25:44related to this change through the operating variants

1:25:46and further be directed to refer the related 2024 to 2027

1:25:50costs to the upcoming multi-year budgeting process

1:25:53and deliberations of council.

1:25:56And in speaking to this, mobility buses don't run all night,

1:26:01similarly to our regular bus lines

1:26:03and the disabled community need extra time in between stops

1:26:06to transfer.

1:26:07Disabled people are some of the most economically disadvantaged

1:26:10groups and we have intersectional equity issues.

1:26:13I believe that 10,000 a year is a very small price tag

1:26:16to increase the accessibility

1:26:18and ensure people are not being charged twice for long rides.

1:26:21It would be kind of like if Netflix charged you twice

1:26:23if you watched a movie over two hours.

1:26:26In addition to that delays in traffic,

1:26:29bus cancellations and construction impact,

1:26:32transfer times for all people,

1:26:34riders have been sending either bus itineraries

1:26:36to show that some routes are over an hour with bus

1:26:38and walking times in between transfer points.

1:26:40So I think that a friendly transfer time

1:26:42will increase ridership

1:26:43and help us increase the provincial grant entitlement.

1:26:46Increasing transfer times is also in the transit faster plan

1:26:50that past council approved in 2021.

1:26:53So we're being consistent with approved plans

1:26:55if we make it a 90 minute transfer.

1:26:57I know many folks supported a two hour transfer time

1:27:01in the TAG surveys.

1:27:03Nurgur Candice said, I think that this is a

1:27:08middle point between that.

1:27:12Thank you.

1:27:12So first, are there any questions of staff

1:27:15or the remover on this motion?

1:27:20Are there any?

1:27:21Oh, Councillor Gibson.

1:27:23Sorry, I feel like I'm the only one with questions.

1:27:25So the noted impact this year is understood

1:27:28but similar to the previous motion,

1:27:30is there a separate number for the next year?

1:27:33Is the number get bigger?

1:27:35Through council or through chair downer to Councillor Gibson.

1:27:37Yes, it gets bigger

1:27:38because the estimate for this year is for a partial year.

1:27:41So the estimate for 2024 is $33,000.

1:27:44And that would be brought forward

1:27:46through the multi-year budget process.

1:27:50Okay, thank you.

1:27:54Okay, are there any other questions of staff?

1:27:55Councillor Richardson.

1:27:57Through your chair downer to DCO Clackbush.

1:28:00In your community engagement

1:28:02and all the work that you've done

1:28:03was the transfer time brought up as a concern by many?

1:28:08Through chair downer to Councillor Richardson,

1:28:10I will double check with transit staff.

1:28:11No, and that was pretty sure.

1:28:14I was pretty sure that was the answer.

1:28:15I also know, because I had checked earlier this week,

1:28:17we checked our files

1:28:18and we've had one transit complaint

1:28:20related to transfer times that's come in

1:28:21through our database.

1:28:22We do occasionally have times

1:28:23where if a customer misses a connection due to construction

1:28:27or a missed run,

1:28:28but we will always make sure

1:28:30that that customer is made whole in that instance.

1:28:32But to the question of the actual transfer time,

1:28:35no, that didn't come up through our engagement

1:28:37and we have had one complaint come into our transit office

1:28:40in recent years.

1:28:41Thank you.

1:28:44Are there any other questions of staff on this?

1:28:46Okay, comments on this motion?

1:28:50Councillor Corrone.

1:28:50Yeah, just a simple comment

1:28:52because it has happened to me where I've missed a transfer

1:28:55and it's not because I have a disability

1:28:58unless you call needing to go to the bathroom,

1:29:00a disability, I missed the bus

1:29:02because I needed to take a bathroom break in between.

1:29:04So I think it is a real disincentive

1:29:08to riding transit for those

1:29:11who are not able to make their connections.

1:29:13And although we didn't hear transfer time specifically

1:29:16in the surveys,

1:29:18I think missed connections was something

1:29:20that we did hear a lot of.

1:29:21And maybe that was the language

1:29:23that that input took the form of.

1:29:27But I guess I do have a question after all

1:29:30and it relates to this,

1:29:32is that calculation of 10,000 this year, 33,000,

1:29:37what is that based on?

1:29:38Is that based on the number of potential riders

1:29:43who will abuse that transfer time?

1:29:45Or is that based on the actual number of routes

1:29:50that don't align with a 60 minute period?

1:29:53What is that figure based on?

1:29:56For you to go down or to Councillor.

1:29:58So what it's based on,

1:29:59so currently all of our routes

1:30:01can make the transfer time within the 60 minutes,

1:30:03but we did an analysis on all of our card holders

1:30:05and we have a unique card number

1:30:07and we pulled all the cards

1:30:08that tap a second time between the 60 and 90 minutes.

1:30:11And then we looked at all of those individual trips

1:30:13to confirm if it was one continuous trip

1:30:15or if they're actually coming back.

1:30:17So we looked at them all and there wasn't,

1:30:19they were not continuous trips.

1:30:20If they were tapping between the 60 and 90 minutes,

1:30:22they were returning to go back.

1:30:29Councillor O'Rourke.

1:30:30Thank you.

1:30:31Well, I'm hearing that there wasn't much

1:30:33of a concern from riders.

1:30:35I do recognize that there were some concerns

1:30:38about the transfer time and I think

1:30:40that we need to acknowledge that,

1:30:41that there were people that did come forward

1:30:43to state that the transfer time was of a concern.

1:30:47And I think that this is something

1:30:50that we can revisit as well.

1:30:52But I think if we are promoting a bus system

1:30:56to ensure multimodal transit in Guelph,

1:31:00and that includes walking and bikes as well,

1:31:03that this is something that for $10,000

1:31:08price tag is relatively insignificant.

1:31:19So Councillor Goller, Gibson and Billings.

1:31:23Thank you through your chair, Downer.

1:31:24I'm happy to support this motion.

1:31:28When we talk about subsidizing,

1:31:29and perhaps we may be subsidizing the trips

1:31:32for some patrons, but also for those patrons

1:31:36that are not able to make their transfers,

1:31:38I think this is important.

1:31:40I'd like to remind council that we subsidize

1:31:42everyone's parking spaces.

1:31:43Whenever you go out, you park on the road,

1:31:45you're not paying for it.

1:31:47You're not paying for it in downtown.

1:31:48You're not paying for it throughout the city.

1:31:50And every taxpayer is paying for that.

1:31:53So I think we need to do more with our public transit.

1:31:56And I think this is going in the right direction.

1:31:59Thank you.

1:32:03Councillor Billings.

1:32:06Through you, Madam Chair, to staff.

1:32:08So I just, I need clarity on the one thing.

1:32:11And it was Councillor Kerron's issue

1:32:13of what going to the bathroom.

1:32:14I get on the bus and I go downtown

1:32:16and I need to transfer, but I don't make it.

1:32:18Gotta go washroom.

1:32:20So when it comes time for the next bus cycle,

1:32:24is that not technically within my 60 minutes

1:32:27so that I wouldn't have to pay another fare?

1:32:34For you, Chair Downer, to Councillor,

1:32:35the transfer is effective

1:32:37as soon as you tap your card the first time.

1:32:39So if you tap at 10 a.m.,

1:32:41you can travel unlimited until 11 a.m.

1:32:44So that extra bus, if I tap it at 10.59,

1:32:49then I'm good to go.

1:32:53Yes, that's correct.

1:32:54Okay.

1:32:55Thank you.

1:32:57Councillor Gibson.

1:32:59Yeah, thank you through you, Chair Downer,

1:33:02not to dismiss any of the merits of the arguments here.

1:33:04I think they've all been good.

1:33:05I guess my question to staff maybe is a takeaway,

1:33:07not direction, but just a question.

1:33:10Could staff maybe through an email to council

1:33:14or to maybe information later on,

1:33:16just let us know where we're at

1:33:18with our internal policy around subsidizing transit?

1:33:21I feel like sometimes we don't ask that question enough.

1:33:24I think we're well past the rate at which we have

1:33:28a set policy that we would subsidize the service.

1:33:32Perhaps staff can answer that question out

1:33:33or would you like to take it away

1:33:34and perhaps update us later?

1:33:37So through Chair Downer, I'll speak to it now

1:33:39because there is an original policy,

1:33:42I think it dates back to 2019,

1:33:44that came through a previous transit service review

1:33:47related to that RC ratio or that revenue to cost ratio.

1:33:50However, finance did bring forward a revenue policy

1:33:54last month that shifted us to a different way

1:33:57of looking at how we collect revenue

1:33:59and really looking at finding a balance

1:34:01between what are we transferring to the user

1:34:04of any individual service versus what are we calculating

1:34:07to be in the greater good of the community?

1:34:09And part of the reason for that is it takes us away

1:34:11from that very, very strict revenue to cost ratio

1:34:14that we used to use because then we're factoring expenses

1:34:17in to revenues and that isn't always the best way

1:34:21to calculate revenue.

1:34:23So the sort of longer answer to that

1:34:26and we can certainly loop back with a more fulsome email

1:34:28and work with our colleagues in finance on that,

1:34:30but that is that our revenue policy from last month

1:34:34that was considered by council shifts us away

1:34:38from that strict percentage based

1:34:40and more looking at revenues like you're considering now,

1:34:43expenses like you'll be considering that budget

1:34:45and then looking at it in the totality of what is the best

1:34:50approach for and I'll take it away from transit for a moment.

1:34:53Maybe if we look at recreation,

1:34:54what amount should a user be paying,

1:34:57but what amount is in the greater good of the community

1:34:59to be providing those services?

1:35:01And so we can follow up with finance

1:35:03and get more of that to you in an email.

1:35:07Okay, thank you.

1:35:08Are there any other questions or comments?

1:35:13And this councillor Kater.

1:35:16Thank you, through you.

1:35:18So I just wanted to reiterate that

1:35:21this is a transfer time issue.

1:35:23It does affect everybody and just like any accessibility

1:35:26and equity issue, everybody benefits from accessibility.

1:35:30Everyone benefits from the ability to be able to move slower

1:35:35and get in between transfers.

1:35:37I know that folks who are going all the way across the city

1:35:40from where I live potentially over to Hanlon Business Park,

1:35:45their ride is much longer.

1:35:47So it is not the same experience for everybody.

1:35:51And we're trying to make sure that every edge case

1:35:55is given an equal opportunity to have one straight ride

1:36:00with one fare.

1:36:06Is there any other comments or questions

1:36:09regarding the amendment before us?

1:36:14Okay, I'm going to call the vote.

1:36:16All those opposed to the motion, seeing none.

1:36:25I'm assuming that's a unanimous then.

1:36:27And we need to then vote on the whole of number three.

1:36:34So is there any more comments on number three

1:36:38as the questions?

1:36:40Okay, I'll call the vote.

1:36:41Is anyone opposed the amended motion number three?

1:36:46Seeing none, that's supported.

1:36:49And now I'll, so do we need to, Mr. O'Brien,

1:36:54do we need, we don't need to go through the whole thing again?

1:36:58No, no chair downer, we don't need to go through it.

1:37:02I did want to mention one thing though, chair downer

1:37:05at committee, the whole mayor got through moved

1:37:07in motion directing staff to investigate and report back

1:37:10through a budget process on some matters.

1:37:13Council may have noted that that wasn't captured

1:37:14on the agenda that just for clarity's purpose,

1:37:17that's something that committee does have the authority to do.

1:37:19So at the earlier meeting of this month,

1:37:23that direction to staff to report back was captured.

1:37:27And so I just wanted to add that clarity.

1:37:28I don't know if DCO clerk Bush wants to add anything,

1:37:30but I know that it's been captured by her team.

1:37:34Sure, if it's okay, just through chair downer,

1:37:36just to confirm that yes, we have captured that

1:37:38and we will action it, it will come back

1:37:40in the form of probably an information report

1:37:42for your consideration that we're aiming for in September.

1:37:45It relates to transit affordability and accessibility

1:37:48for a couple of specific age groups.

1:37:51And so we'll be engaging with a number

1:37:53of community stakeholders on that

1:37:55and coming back to you with an information report

1:37:58in September for your consideration.

1:38:00And without sort of stealing our thunder,

1:38:03we're very much going to be approaching it

1:38:04from the perspective of how,

1:38:06where is our affordable bus pass working

1:38:08and are there gaps in that system that we need to address

1:38:10to make sure that we are making transit accessible

1:38:14and affordable for the ages that were specified in the motion.

1:38:20That will come back for your consideration in September

1:38:22as an information report so that then you can consider

1:38:25any outcomes of that as part of your budget deliberations.

1:38:29Okay, thank you.

1:38:30So I did want to just make a comment

1:38:32on the work that's been done on this.

1:38:34I think it's been very good work.

1:38:35I think as many delegations and Council has said

1:38:39that much of the report and the recommendations

1:38:43coming forward were supported.

1:38:45Some few things have been taken out

1:38:47that Council having hearing delegations for letters

1:38:51have taken into account and changed.

1:38:52But I really want to thank staff for the work

1:38:55that has been done on our transit staff.

1:38:57I know that you've done a lot of work,

1:38:59a lot of due diligence listening to the community

1:39:01and things evolve as we go along.

1:39:04But congratulations.

1:39:07So we're going to go to 8.2.

1:39:11And this was a motion that's a recommendation