Heritage Guelph

0:00We will get started for today, so call to order for today's meeting.

0:05Welcome everyone to the June, the 24 meeting of Heritage 12.

0:09As our first item on the agenda, I'll go through our territorial acknowledgement.

0:15So to gather, let us take time to reflect on our privilege to live and work in wealth, the city built over rich indigenous histories.

0:22We are guests here, we reflect upon responsibility to care for this land, the people who live here today and the generations to come.

0:29If our actions today can move us toward reconciliation, we should take pause and make those decisions with intention and gratitude.

0:36This place to call wealth has served as traditional lands and a place of refuge for many peoples over time, but more specifically the Adelman drunk and the Haudenosaunee.

0:45This land is held as a treaty land and territory with the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation.

0:52Well flies directly adjacent to the Haudenosaunee tract and is part of the longest established traditional hunting ground for the 6 nations of the Grand River.

0:59Many First Nations in Guent and many people have come from a cross-tortal island called Guelph home today.

1:06And our second item will be the Disposure of Precarenary Interest and General Nature thereof. Anyone on the committee has anything related to our agenda items?

1:16In silence both online and in the room, we will continue on to Approval Minutes.

1:25So our recommendation is that the minutes on the May 6th meeting of the Heritage Well Committee be approved.

1:30Is there a mover?

1:34Thank you, David, a seconder.

1:38Thank you and then all in favor.

1:43Brenda will just need to see your face if possible.

1:46Thank you.

1:54All right, a slight notice that we're changing the agenda slightly for today. So we're going to go into the committee items because we do have delegations for both of those.

2:02And to move things along so folks don't have to sit here for the entire meeting, we'll go to that first. So we are going to go to item 3.1, which is 331 Fairbrook East Heritage Program application with a presentation from Jack.

2:16Thank you, Sarah.

2:20I'm going to be rather brief today because we do have a delegation that will be making a presentation on this item.

2:27What we're considering is the relocation of the Hamlin farmhouse, which we've been anticipating a heritage permit for this for some time.

2:36With the Heritage Permit application, a conservation plan was submitted along with the structural feasibility review.

2:45And it's the opinion of heritage staff that proper due diligence has been done to prepare the site for relocation, including structural repairs removal of the summer kitchen and yellow brick chimneys and relocation of building a top of new foundation.

3:05And it was remodeled by a certified professional campus Canadian Association of Heritage Professionals and the structural feasibility letter that was attached came from a CAP certified engineer.

3:19So, from my perspective due diligence has been done and I'll turn it over to our delegation now.

3:28Thank you.

3:30Thank you.

3:31Thank you.

3:32Thank you.

3:33My name is Dan Curry heritage planner partner with MHBC. Also with me is Emily Elliott, whose partner and development planner looking after the development application.

3:58So we've got a couple of slides, but further to the jack's points were supported the staff recommendation. And what I'll do is just very briefly, right a little bit more detail on the on this phase of the project.

4:13What's proposed and then it's overall it is a phase process. And then we're here to answer any questions you might have.

4:22Next slide please.

4:24Thank you. So, 331 Clair road also known as the Hanlon house. Some committee members you've got a good idea where it is, but it's on a large.

4:34So, the house is really arts the A and then the B is the summer kitchen or the addition to the rear. So it's designated.

4:56It applies to the whole property heritage attributes really apply to the part of the building and committee members who will call the 1st phase of this heritage perspective was the heritage permit for the removal of the rear component, the summer kitchen and that was grouped in February.

5:15Next slide please. And so the overall redevelopment will be.

5:24The complex the center area.

5:27The red box is where the the house is right now on the property. It's supposed to move in the direction of that arrow and it will be in the center of the property in the amenity area.

5:38And it will be adaptively reduced and function as part of the amenity for the residents on that site. And you can see it's also been purposely placed in that amenity area. So it's at the termination of the entrance rose.

5:50It will still retain this ability from from a public realm as a certain visibility within the within the overall site.

6:01I guess the bottom point is important there to relocate place upon a new foundation.

6:07Next slide. And so the conservation plan, the structural report that were submitted and attached to the heritage permit application by the detail on the necessary steps to go through. But really it's that.

6:27For this phase, which is the second phase kind of a two step process. So prior to relocation.

6:33That rear addition will get removed, which is already been approved in terms of the permit.

6:39Then remediated and immediate condition issues with the building, including ensure that it's stabilized any re pointing.

6:49The new site has to be prepared. That will be a new foundation, obviously, but also.

6:55To get the house great to get the house to the new location as smoothly and sufficiently as possible.

7:03The lands are pretty flat. So that part is not really going to be an issue compared to other sites we've been involved with where building is moved farther and requires more grading. It's pretty straight.

7:14Then once the.

7:16The house is moved, there will be the.

7:20Just ensuring that there isn't any masonry repairs needed, but then also securing it in the short term. So right now the window, a lot of windows.

7:30Busted broken over time. They're all secured.

7:34When the rear addition is removed, there will be the 2 doorways of the back that will have to be secured. So all of that will be done.

7:41Securing in advance, but then certainly when it's relocated.

7:45And then as well.

7:47Temporary protection measures so that it's not inadvertently damaged during construction. So things like surround by construction, fence, etc.

7:58Then there's also in the conservation plans of post construction monitoring.

8:04But the 2nd.

8:06And really the 3rd step, I guess, in terms of the heritage permits that will be requested is then once the building is removed the.

8:15Subdivision in terms of all the in the structure is completed.

8:19The owners will come forward with another permit for replacement of windows. And once the final use of the of the building that will come forward to the committee and to the city in a future date. So that's what that.

8:33Little bracket in a 2nd, HPA, maybe you required in the future. I expected well.

8:39Next slide.

8:43Yeah.

8:44So, again, this is reiterating the points Jack made in his, in his opening remarks, the conservation plan has been submitted. It's attached as part of your package happening to, you know, if there are questions or comments.

8:58That includes the structural engineering report, which importantly confirms the building is structurally sound can be moved.

9:05And then, of course, it includes the recommendations in much more detail than what I've described in this in this overview presentation.

9:13But we're certainly recommending that the heritage permit application be approved. We feel all the required necessary due diligence. The plans are a place to ensure that it gets them successfully and then sets it out for conservation in the long term.

9:27With that, unless I missed anything.

9:31Oh, that was very narrow. Okay. Thank you.

9:34Any questions you may have or I guess I turn it back to you, Madam chair and you decide what the next step is.

9:39I will open it to questions if there are any questions or comments from the committee for Jack or for Dan.

9:48I have one.

9:50First of all, I'm concerned like, instead of scenario, like when you going to demolish the kitchen, I went like yesterday, especially seeing like the building itself and you know, if you know the kitchen has been demolished.

10:07And let's say the building was found not to be, you know, like stable enough. Will you like keep it in the new like, try to do another option where the building says there and do other, you know, houses all around where you haven't like, you know, or you know, because you know, like

10:32keeping it where it is, or moving it. I don't know if you know that place very much impact on losing so many townhouses, you know, and this is one.

10:45Another issue when I went there and I saw the post.

10:49I didn't see townhouses. I'm not sure, you know, correct me if I'm wrong. I saw also big deal.

10:55And if that's the case, where are they and will they be impacting the vision to the building itself.

11:05So, this location where it is, you know, we have to be like perpendicular to it probably to see it or by going, you know, the direction of the buildings that are really usually like to throw more than three stories.

11:22So, the visual access won't be.

11:27I can, through you, Madam Chair, certainly the first question and then part of the second question and Emily may want to weigh in on on the post development.

11:36In terms of the move so that we're satisfied that structurally, it will be able to be moved and that was.

11:47Why didn't it is based on the, the work that was completed by the structural engineer to complete.

11:54And specifically, that once the rigor addition is removed, that the building is can be made to be structurally sound enough to be relocated. So that's confirmed in in that.

12:06So, we're satisfied. There will be, and it's not like a situation where the entirety of that back wall is is open and at the interface of where the building connects to the new to the to the party where party connects to part.

12:24There's a doorway there so that has to be secured, but it's not.

12:30This is not so complex that the, the.

12:35The engineer was concerned at all, in fact, quite satisfied that it can be moved. So to your point.

12:41Should that change for seeing circumstances that an option would be potentially to to either consider something else and could be a different plan.

12:52The relocating the building to the amenity area is the best outcome for the building and for the development in combination together.

13:01And that feeds into I think your second point in your second question, which is.

13:07I understood your question to be or or comment to be that even though the building is located at the termination to that road and still going to be screened for view more than what it is today.

13:17It will be. And that's part of the trade off over the overall planning for this site.

13:26And, and, but I would say that the building was purposely moved.

13:32To that location for 2 reasons 1 and puts it in the best location to be so that there still is a view from the public area, but also within the site.

13:42But also puts it in a place where it's going to be used in the back. And that's the best outcome for for.

13:49For buildings that they're not, if it wasn't going to continue to be the farm, then someone live in it. And what is the best option for this non residential use putting it in the amenity area where it's got the best potential to live forever.

14:01That's that's what's taken place.

14:03And I go ahead and I think you also asked if there were going to be tall buildings on the site. The development is for stacked townhouses. So they are traditional townhouses. They're, they're a different form that are a little bit more dense.

14:16And, but there are 3 to 3 and a half stories in the case. So not, not tall buildings. There still will be those views maintained from.

14:23And there's a question from Alexander on.

14:28Hi, can you hear me?

14:33Yeah, I got a couple of questions. 1 is.

14:38You know, it seems like a lot of due diligence has been done and I don't mean to challenge the engineers assessment.

14:46But in the worst case scenario during a relocation is the contractor or is the owner of the property. Do they have insurance that would cover.

14:58A potential reconstruction if there was, say, a catastrophic failure during the relocation.

15:06I agree with that chair. The short answer is yes. The mover.

15:12I believe it's now been selected. It's Danko who are well.

15:16I've moved heritage buildings before have experienced with stone buildings. We've worked on projects with them before. So.

15:25I don't foresee that there will be an issue, but to your answer, yes, they're required to carry insurance.

15:31Alright, second question. You'll permit me chair the current windows. I mean, despite the state that they're in.

15:40I just want to clarify if they are planned that they're going to remain within the structure during the move or if they're going to be removed.

15:50Prior and if they are being removed.

15:53What sort of.

15:58Like, how are we, how are we ensuring that they're being helped on to for whenever phase 2 gets brought forward.

16:06Sure.

16:07Again, to you, madam chair, the, the attention is to stabilize everything and remove as little as possible in preparation for the move. So in terms of the.

16:20Where the glass has been broken, but the frame still exists. The goal is to stabilize those window frames in there so that they don't have to be removed and and stored inside.

16:32As that.

16:34Detail preparation work gets underway if that is the case, obviously.

16:39We're monitoring the situation with staff and if that's the case, we'll ensure that anything that has to be removed temporarily during the move also gets then put back in the house and secure safely so that it can be reused or used as pattern or whatever the

16:56necessary next step is that will be part of the 3rd heritage permit application in the future.

17:04Great.

17:05Question number 3, I'll keep this quick.

17:09And this may have been addressed at the previous.

17:14Designation process, but with the removal of the summer kitchen is in the necessary stabilization repairs for the building prior to a relocation is the goal to reuse stone.

17:29That is on site or salvage from the summer kitchen as part of the repair work.

17:36You're going to manage. Yes, actually there's the short answer is the cell that the stone is going to be salvaged and retained both in case there needs to be replacement stones to be reused in a repair.

17:51But also there are some retaining walls and features that are in the amenity area where some of that salvage stone is going to be reused in a bit more.

18:03In that way as well. So there is going to be large amounts of that.

18:08Remove portion of the building retained so it's available to be reused.

18:14Thank you.

18:15In the same vein.

18:18The report notes that the chimney, the yellow brick chimney in the back is in quite poor condition, but.

18:26Do we do we know, you know, for instance, if any of that brick is of a local.

18:33Like what period of time it was created and if there's any salvageable brick that could be retained to be used within the project saying a phase 2 is that something that's on the docket I know that's not necessarily.

18:44Maybe within the scope of our discussion today. So if it's not, then I withdraw it, but just out of curiosity sake.

18:51Sure, through you madam chair.

18:54The brick chimneys are later additions. It's a later chimney. It's not an original chimney.

19:00We don't know when it was added or if it's made from from local brick or not. We just simply don't know.

19:08I think it's not proposed that the brick be salvaged and retained for future use partly because the original components of the house are mainly field stone. And so what isn't really a use for it so that that isn't the plan currently.

19:27Okay.

19:28And my final question.

19:30During in the document that discusses the monitoring.

19:36Says that there will be a cap professional who provides a pre relocation assessment and then 1 that provides a post relocation assessment.

19:46Is that going to be the same professional or is that going to be 2 different professionals.

19:52So, you're a manager.

19:53It'll be us and it will be the.

19:57Vanessa is doing the heavy lifting on this poll report sheets on vacation this week. So that's why I'm here, but it will be MHBC heritage planning staff that are the cap professionals in an association with your staff.

20:12So, it'll be the same people.

20:15Okay, and they're providing comment on the assessment of sort of the structural integrity pre and post.

20:223 Madam chair, what what.

20:25The way we've done it on other projects and the way I expect it will be done here is that the role of the heritage planner is we've got a plan on how all of this will will transpire.

20:40All the things that need to be done before the building is moved.

20:43Making sure that the site is appropriate and the path to the site is appropriate and then once the building is moved.

20:51Ensuring that it's all been any necessary repairs and secured and ready for that next phase. So, our job will be to be there and firm.

21:02That the pre move all those list of activities have been done, etc, etc.

21:08If in the situations where there's a decision to be made as to.

21:14Does there need to be more repaired in this instance? Obviously, we might see that come to mind, but we'll then.

21:21Speak to the engineer, the structural engineer and the others that are on this project also, which are cap designated.

21:31So, we have all the all the.

21:34Necessary technical staff within the project team to be able to answer all those questions, but the goal is is you monitor it. We ensure staff confirm. Yes.

21:46Yes, is correct. All those things were done. Yes.

21:49Yes, is correct. All those things have been done.

21:52We've got the path.

21:54The move the mover has has identified. Yes, we can move it. Here's the move plan. All of that's been confirmed. So that's really the process.

22:04See how it's going down. So I assume that is that answer all your questions.

22:15Are there other questions in the room or Cameron? Yeah, I just question this might be for staff that are delegates, but I'm reading the motion that's posed.

22:23So, are we being asked to, if we support the relocation in general, or agree that relocating will not impact hairs, which attributes.

22:32Do you want?

22:34Yeah.

22:35So, you're being asked if you think it would affect the heritage attributes, in which case that might justify.

22:44Refusing the permit.

22:46Right.

22:47Okay. So, it's kind of a question is, is the loss of view, narrow and worse the adaptive reuse restoration of the building.

22:55Makes sense. Thank you.

23:00Question.

23:02That's your specific.

23:04I'm not sure what the answer, but in your experience, which presented something may go wrong.

23:11Make statistically, yeah.

23:16That's a pattern.

23:19Something inappropriate or negative.

23:23Won't be a conflict.

23:27Sure.

23:28Through you, Madam chair, we've moved several buildings and other municipalities.

23:34We've got one under way in Toronto, one in Markham and others. I can, I can speak to our realm of, you know, that they've all been moved successfully.

23:47One case, one in Cambridge, it was moved successfully or was about to be moved successfully. And then Van was broken into the building burnt it down.

23:56And that was after it was up on the up on the wheels to move it to the place and big loss to everybody, but that that was the only situation so that didn't have any.

24:10Or that wasn't related to accidents during the move or miscalculations on engineers parts or others. So all of them have been moved successfully and there are many, many others that other.

24:22You know, other municipalities that other applicants other heritage planners been involved with.

24:28I don't know any that have fallen off the truck so to speak or that there's been some sort of.

24:35Oversight in the in the due diligence. The only one I know of this when I was going to say teenagers, but I don't know that the family's broken into print and that's all we have.

24:47So far, 100% and it will continue to be.

24:52I have a question.

24:58Honestly, I want to be frank with you as a normal plan.

25:03I'm not comfortable with the issue that you call an HPC hasn't done the effort, prove me wrong.

25:13I'm not doing the building there and doing another proposal with other houses.

25:19If I haven't seen that, you know, they took the easy solution where they will move this give priority to houses have access to the road.

25:30And this one will deal with it in, you know, the second priority. And this is what bothers me also, you know, like, if I saw another attempt where there was another scenario where.

25:42Building stated set I see townhouses all around and commodity for whatever you service area was adapted to the building where it is and other buildings were around it.

25:55And I didn't succeed.

25:58And I will say, okay, but I haven't seen that, you know, so far I only saw a solution, take it or leave. Honestly, you know, this is my, you know, like, yeah, my, my, I'm very frank, you know, this.

26:11So this is only my, my, you know, other than that, moving it and all these things, you know, secondary.

26:19At least, you know, like, there is a good, lovely, beautiful building.

26:25Instead, why not keep it there and try, you know, a solution with all around have you have them.

26:33Yes, we've tried.

26:35Sure. So, through you, Madam chair, in response to the question, yes.

26:40The zoning by law amendment that.

26:42Seated all of this has already gone to council and been approved.

26:46The heritage impact assessment was prepared to support that zoning by law amendment. So within that heritage impact assessment was, as always needs to be a consideration of the alternatives.

26:57So all of that has already been completed. We're past that point. I completely appreciate your.

27:02Your question is a horse. It wasn't to you. I understand that I'm not trying to throw this back at you to say who to date. What I am saying is we went through that process as part of the heritage impact assessment, which is the necessary place to do that, which is to look at here.

27:19All the alternatives. Here's the impacts that assess each of those.

27:24The option of retaining the building and building around it was one of those removing the building completely demolishing it. One of the other options. I don't remember the others. It's been a while since I looked at that report.

27:36But that's that we did go through.

27:39And what was the reason why you wanted to move the bill?

27:45The, through you, Madam chair is that the impacts were minimal in our view.

27:51The important part of the cultural heritage is the building itself. It's going to be retained. It's going to be adaptively reused.

27:59The move to the center had really one impact and that was that there is a limit or restriction on the views that will occur. It's still, it's still has public views from the public realm.

28:13It's to your point, it's a much narrower window, but it's still there. And to us, that was a very minor impact.

28:19Council agreed.

28:23So, was that a financial, you know, like, you know, like the reason was by moving into a game more houses or what was the reason basically for taking this decision of moving the building.

28:39It through that through you, Madam chair, the, the concept plan would have looked different, but ultimately that the, the amenity area would have been in the area where the house is now.

28:55I can't recall there may have been differences in the number of units.

29:00Ultimately, you wouldn't have gotten a sufficient ring road on the center for sure.

29:06So, well, I can't remember there was likely impacts on the number of units in the heritage impact assessment, though, that's not the driving factor for that.

29:18Technical analysis as to what is the best option for the report. Ultimately, council considers those types of things and the planners consider those types of things in providing advice as to overall.

29:29So, this is the best outcome for this site. Our job was to evaluate the heritage impact. And in our view, regardless of whether there was greater numbers of units in any one of the scenarios.

29:40What's the impact of shifting that building and was relatively minor.

29:45Okay, thank you.

29:47I think I was too, I think it was going to be a big fence up in the house is still locked out anyways, right. I think there's, there's tons of different attention that happened where access to the house within a few could have involved.

29:59I believe.

30:01We're planning to start.

30:03And I have a lot of conversation with that original heritage impact assessment or went to cast that come to heritage. Well, okay, what was that?

30:12July or June of last.

30:15Okay.

30:16Okay, so we're going to make a conversation.

30:19Right.

30:20That about the relocation.

30:22Okay.

30:23Questions comments.

30:31I'll read out the motion then as was proposed.

30:35So, the motion is that heritage ball provides the following comments to see council with respect to the heritage permit application for 331.

30:43The proposed relocation of the stone barn house at 331, their room of East, not negatively impact the heritage property identified and designation bylaw 2024 dash two zero eight nine free passed by council on February 13, 2024.

30:57Is there a mover for the motion.

31:04Online or thank you Laura can see your hand there. Perfect.

31:10And a seconder.

31:13Just starting out there and telling us and you're also to participate in the way you have it.

31:21Yep.

31:22And then all those who are in favor.

31:25And we got everyone else. Perfect. Thank you everyone.

31:32Thank you.

31:35I'm going to move on to our second committee item then, which is one 16 for both house rehabilitation.

31:51Thank you very much.

31:53Chair chair Sarah.

31:57I'm presenting today.

32:04Information regarding the proposed rehabilitation, the existing concrete retaining wall that's in front of the boat house building at one 16 Gordon street.

32:21It's just east of the Gordon street bridge.

32:25And as you've seen, and I apologize in advance I've re-iterating text and images or you had a chance to view in this type of court, but I just thought it would be important just to get a little bit of information.

32:38I just thought it would be important just to go over maybe some of the highlights.

32:43So as you've seen in the, the attachment, the location of the boat house is, is just beside this retaining all.

32:54And I'm without a mouse so I might be a little bit disabled here.

33:00I believe that the images will give you a good idea of the context around the retaining wall and cell.

33:10So, just to be clear, the boat house building itself is what we call a double designated building. It's admitted individually under part four of the heritage act through bylaw.

33:22That, that bylaw though only texts the building itself, not none of the features on on the site.

33:30But the property in general is protected and named as a heritage attribute of the Brooklyn College of Heritage Conservation District.

33:40And I did provide an image of the district itself which would follow.

33:47But just about everybody who lives involved, but even those visits that drive through from south.

33:56They come down Brooklyn through Brooklyn down the college hill.

34:00They'll come across the river and enjoy the view even from car. Enjoy the view of the boat house.

34:06I think there is always been an association just to get retaining wall in front of it and that.

34:17In the images that I've provided I, I'm generally not none of us as staff are not really supposed to put people or allow people in the photographs to take but I thought it was important at least to the image on the left.

34:33You may have noticed this already but there is someone it's actually a staff.

34:37I was standing on the top of the team. I just thought it went that way.

34:43To be fair, I blocked out the face. So, so just like Google so I think this isn't it's inappropriate but also telling image.

34:57So, again, this is where my cursor is is the area within the Brooklyn College district. The subject property is gated.

35:10And I've provided, whoops, I've provided some historic photographs, just as a review for some but maybe as new information for others that are newer to the Heritage Committee.

35:21So, the boat house building that we see today isn't actually the original building. And when you look through the fire insurance plans, you see 1922, which was revised in 1929 you see actually a very different

35:34building's on site. There's actually two stories tall. So, but I can imagine that being pretty easy to bring even larger boats into.

35:46What's important about this 1940s air photo is that it does show the, the boat house building but it shows only a partial retaining wall, having been built just in front of it. There appears there's some shadow lines that might indicate a stairway I'm not sure.

36:02And to the right, there may be a stone wall but that's hard to actually confirm.

36:09So, by the time the fire insurance plans show 1946 you see the building here that we see today. Unfortunately, the fire plans didn't indicate landscape features like any else.

36:24So, just to move through the images that I took when I was on site, just to help people understand the context. The retaining wall extends from the Gordon Street Bridge, close to but not all the way to the covered bridge, which is a lattice town trust bridge, which

36:45is something that people are quite used to looking through to view through that lattice.

36:54But something else that's come to my attention since taking these photographs and becoming even more familiar with this area. I have eaten a few ice cream cones.

37:06Not necessarily the staff, but I wanted to point out this spot here with just short shrubs. This is actually known as the reflection guard, and it was installed in 2000 with support from the Canadian Federation of the University of men.

37:26And it's to commemorate the Montreal massacre in 1989, the murder of 14 women.

37:36I'm still looking into how this actually works, but I've been told by Wendy Shearer, landscape architect that the idea for the reflection garden is that when seen from across the river, there is something of a reflection that it makes in the water.

37:56I'm still looking into that to confirm that, but just a few more pictures that show the current view over the top of the wall.

38:06You'll see this is the reflection here itself. And finally, I decided to include an example of a fence, when I'm probing a guard fence, I don't know if that's the actual term itself, but in the river walk in Guelph,

38:26the metal works developed, there is a simple metal fence like this that is right at the edge of the river.

38:35So, I don't want to reiterate too much. I do want to make sure there's lots of time for discussion.

38:44I wanted to highlight that we have for first of all, I'd introduce that we do have present with us online Jackie K from cities engineering.

38:54Engineering department and Jackie's been able to join us today if that's helpful for any any questions that may come up.

39:04I also want to point out and this is something that was on your team already have to be by Jack and emails, committee members.

39:14Heritage planning staff is in discussion with building services to see just exactly what the building code requires of this retaining wall.

39:24The work that's proposed is simple. The rehabilitation is to repair the concrete wall or the wall that's been faced in concrete for many years.

39:36So, normally, the rehabilitation or repairs to even a protected property just necessarily warrant approval of heritage comment.

39:45But because this is it's possible or likely that this repair work would require the addition of a guard fence. That's something that as Jack is only point there.

39:58That when the projects further along and a guard rail or proposed rail design is chosen heritage permit for that guard rail would come back to the committee for their consideration.

40:14So, I believe we do have a delegation so I'd be happy to stand down for now and have John Fisher.

40:25Thank you very much.

40:29And, uh, manager heritage committee.

40:32I'm the president of the law and a member of the tourism advisory.

40:39I'm delegating as a concerned citizen about 116 Gordon street rehabilitation of taming force.

40:47What it says is repairs need to be affected in the retaining wall along the speed river near the boat house.

40:54The building code requires a guard installed on top of the fall.

41:00The air around the boat house is being a magnet for residents of tourism like to gather and relax looking out over the retaining wall at the conference the speed and air most rivers.

41:13Recreational maneuvers wildlife obituaries area.

41:18It is a new colleague setting with a European vibe in the center of the city.

41:24The city began planning work to repair the retaining wall several years ago.

41:29At the time I learned from the engineers that there was a plan to add a fence to the top of the retaining wall because the insisted.

41:37There was a need to comply with the building code once new work was completed.

41:44I was alone.

41:45There was no thought to the aesthetics of the barrier.

41:49The budgetary reasons the city would simply put up a utilitarian fence to satisfy code.

41:55However, the view and setting would be irreparably home to the detriment of the enjoyment of the citizens visitors.

42:06I have since learned that it does not have to be so.

42:10Section 4.7.8 of the book and college heritage conservation district and guidelines states that the use of the river should remain unobstructed by buildings and structures.

42:25Staff have already stated in their right up that adding a fence to the retaining wall is a prominent change to a property inside the Brooklyn and college hill heritage conservation district, which is why it needs approval from the committee.

42:41For me that proposed fence is most definitely an obstruction which violates section 4.7.8.

42:50But it does not have to be a fence.

42:53Because there's an exception to strict appearance to the building floor.

42:57Party level of the code makes specific exemptions to retain heritage features heritage properties without having to bring them up to current hold and it takes precedence.

43:11These retaining walls planted the speed river for nearly 100 years.

43:15I've never had fences on top of walls.

43:18So it's hard to understand there was telling reason to add a fence now.

43:22Staff suggests events like the one at River Wolf might be installed.

43:28I urge you to walk River Wolf and because.

43:33With respect to even selected a very narrow picture to the head of what that walk is like.

43:41This fence is by put is 53 inches high.

43:45The professionally designed pathway is buffered by design.

43:50Running between the fence and the pathway edge, which is 28 feet from the fence.

43:57Vegetation fills up buffer on both sides of fence softening and disguising his presence.

44:05Recreational function of the river wall is completely different than the area surrounding the bold house.

44:13An isolated fence, skeleton fence sitting atop the retaining wall in the boat house location would in my opinion, the ugly and inappropriate.

44:26Staff abroad is to the committee to use the heritage expertise judgment and available tools to protect the boat house view and unique side.

44:37I urge the committee to pursue the section 11 exemption with a link which would eliminate any kind of fence solid retaining.

44:45The walls keep further designation as part of the permit list and please do.

44:51Don't let a fence be your heritage legacy.

44:55Above all, that's not succumbed to an engineering and legal opinion that sucks the joy out of meeting an ice.

45:04Overlooking the confidence of the speed and neuromotorators.

45:09Thank you.

45:12And then.

45:14So you have something else for you to add at this point. So we will.

45:18Or comments from the committee.

45:23So maybe a question for building the service. I think Jackie says on the line is there a.

45:28Building permit required for this all or is it.

45:36Just specifically Mason repairs without the permit required.

45:40Madam chair, I'm not sure that Jackie.

45:45Sorry, it just took me a minute to click all the right buttons to get access to speak.

45:52Yes, my understanding is a building permit is required and that was decided after consultation with our building department.

46:00Okay, thanks.

46:01Question.

46:07I see Alexander and then Kathy.

46:10Just to confirm that for today's meeting, we are simply receiving Stevens.

46:20Report that.

46:22If the the fences.

46:25There's a permit that goes through for the building of that that we would have a discussion at a later point regarding.

46:33The heritage impact of a fence on that.

46:38Property.

46:39Given that he said yes, but I'm representing us you want to ask that student.

46:43That's correct.

46:45I do have a second question. Sorry.

46:47As far as the information that we would receive.

46:54I know that.

46:56This is the, I feel this is the gray blurring of lines between heritage and maybe.

47:02Environmental stewardship, but because we're talking about a landscape, I think it might be a good idea to.

47:08Is will we receive any sort of comments or is the city planning to do an evaluation as to the effect that a fence would have on the circulation of wildlife in that area.

47:19I know geese often are up and down off that wall.

47:23And although heritage, we often looking specifically at the human impact because it is the built environment.

47:29Of human hands.

47:30I think in this instance.

47:32You know, we are making a decision or providing comment on a decision that would impact.

47:37The wildlife circulation as well. Thank you.

47:41I actually would just recommend that Jackie may want to respond to that as opposed to your age planning.

47:49Yeah, at this time, there are no plans for any additional studies.

47:56Thank you.

47:57Kathy.

47:58I just want to make it sort of clear to the committee that just because the recommendation is to receive doesn't mean there can be other recommendations or motions.

48:13I got the impression people were thinking that.

48:16It's the motion to receive, but there can be other motions, but I just.

48:21It's maybe I missed it, but do we have a legal opinion on whether.

48:30That can be exempt from having a fence. My concern is that.

48:37Every time we repair a piece of the wall along the river, we're going to end up with a fence.

48:42All the way along both sides of the river.

48:45And the heritage district.

48:48Which, you know, I don't see in any other community in.

48:57Really like many other communities in a park like setting like this.

49:02I can't recall when I when I'm in Stratford or anywhere else, but.

49:06Is there is there that exemption.

49:08That we could use.

49:10Madam chair.

49:12The heritage planning staff is looking for a legal opinion to be included in.

49:22Heritage planning's ultimate.

49:24Recommendation to the committee and to.

49:27Ultimately to the general manager of planning.

49:31So I believe that if a heritage permit.

49:35Process is underway and if a heritage permit is under way.

49:41It would be approved by the GM.

49:44So it'll come back to this committee then.

49:47Okay.

49:49Follow up questions with from these point.

49:52Is there any sense of timing?

49:54Like do we know when to expect that this would come back to us or.

49:58I could.

49:59Madam chair, I could start the answer to that question by saying that it's my

50:04understanding that the work.

50:06On the ball would it's it's hope to start after Thanksgiving.

50:12But I'm sure Jackie should should clarify that.

50:16Yes, you are correct.

50:18Our plan was to commence after Thanksgiving, which would mean we would need a month or

50:24so before that at the very least to tender the work and afford it.

50:29And so maybe I could start with a question.

50:31That's just for the actual repair work or is that the potential building of events?

50:37So is that the repair work happening after Thanksgiving and then potentially

50:41January things would come to us regarding.

50:43A ball or fencing situation or is that everything we should expect to come back.

50:48In October, November.

50:50I can say I can currently the way the tender like.

50:53We're pulling together the documentation is once the cap would go on the wall, they would install a railing.

51:04I don't I don't know from from Steven's point of view or other staff's thought on on what would come next, but we certainly would.

51:14Need a plan in place before we start the work.

51:18So I'm not sure if we should add to that because Jackie's confirmed that this project would require the approval of building permit.

51:27We already have confirmed it does require the approval of a heritage permit as well.

51:35So, I think that's a good point.

51:38I don't think Jackie's confirmed that this project would require the approval of the building permit.

51:44We already have confirmed it does require the approval of a heritage permit as well.

51:49So, my, my response is until the heritage permit is approved, I don't think a fence.

51:57I'm not sure what the repairs, but I don't think the fence could move forward until that.

52:02Actually, most approvals because building permanent heritage are meant to go parallel.

52:10Questions out there.

52:15Is there.

52:17I haven't been down to the river side park there, but the beautification, the stone walls that are further along.

52:27They're they're a little higher than grade. Right.

52:31Is there.

52:33You know, an evaluation as far as a consistent height that they're at as far like is the metal fence. I know we're just receiving the report today, but is there going to be.

52:46Are we going to receive a report that talks about whether or not other.

52:51Potential.

52:53Construction's are evaluated whether, you know, a stone wall.

52:58We height or something is being evaluated instead of a mental metal fence. Like I understand that.

53:05That's been done with the newer development at the metal works, but because we're in with within that conservation district, there seems to be already precedence for that sort of stone wall.

53:18Look out.

53:23Madam chair, I.

53:25It does, it does seem like all along the river ball.

53:30The public safety will always be something that the city's considering from my perspective, but as heritage planner, I realize now that all.

53:43I'll need to look into just to confirm the cultural heritage value of all of these and start thinking.

53:53Start thinking of a response to that kind of request if it comes down to life.

54:02It's quite likely that it will start happening more as we go downstream. So it's.

54:09But 1 thing I just want to reiterate, I.

54:13Describe the retaining wall in front of the boat house as a concrete wall and it is essentially.

54:19And I don't see it being the same type of structure as what's on both sides of the river.

54:27Even across the river from the boat house and downstream from the Gordon street bridge.

54:33That those walls are much more. They have much more integrity as their original integrity as stone walls. There's been a lot of project done, but there are areas where you can actually see the stone itself.

54:47And a lot of those stone walls have what's called stone soldier or still soldier stones that are vertical belongings.

54:55So, I, in this report or this information, I want the committee to understand that this is real only about the concrete wall retaining wall that's in front of the boat house.

55:07Well, if we have to deal with the rest of the retaining walls for the river walls in future, we'll do that. But all we're doing here is discussing and.

55:19I'm giving the committee information this particular section.

55:23I have another question. So, Stephen, in terms of your next steps, then is it something and I was kind of crafting additional.

55:34I don't see motion, but it's part of your next steps is to look at that part 11 exemption that was noted is that.

55:43I have drawn to something to direct staff, which I would slay the machine to evaluate opportunities for another building.

55:51Is that something you would already be doing or that help one has that comes from heritage.

55:58Well, Madam chair, I'm already in discussion with building services about that part of the building.

56:08So that I understand myself, but also so to it so that we can understand what building services official position will be on.

56:18On this particular case, and as has been mentioned as well, I'm, I'm reaching out to our legal team.

56:29I hope that I have responses this finally responses.

56:38I appreciate the diplomacy that that's on.

56:42I would be supportive of adding to the.

56:45You know, we're doing just to come to the committee that we recommend exploring how possible bill it would be able exemptions to not install around.

56:55I think we probably all agree on speaker from that.

56:58Not having a really long is for her.

57:00It might be nice to have a formal.

57:03Recommended.

57:10So I'm happy to read out the potential emotional motion and less of the questions or comments from committee members.

57:17Yeah, Kelly and I think we're in this just a minute as well. Yeah, I was just, I just wanted to say that I'm in agreement with what Cameron just said that I think.

57:26Not having the railing is definitely preferable and maybe making a declaration at this point is helpful.

57:32Thanks for that. Thanks. I was just going to.

57:39I think Kathy sort of took the words out of my mouth. I think I just have never seen this done. I was just sort of wrecking my brain trying to think of all the cute little.

57:48River towns in Ontario and other places I've lived. And I just can't honestly think of anything that.

57:56Looks like a big metal fence along Riverwalk.

58:00So, I wonder if we.

58:03If that could be considered like somebody come up with an example of something that's.

58:08Save, but I'm happy with it the way it is myself, though I will lie. I mean, I've seen my daughter walk really close to that edge like all moms, you know, at a panic moment.

58:19You know, I think an unobstructed view is where it's obviously I just, I can't think of an example of something.

58:28I've never seen in any town or they've done that.

58:37Other questions or comments, I mean, happy to read out the motion, the additional piece that can also be amended so no one has to stick with what I.

58:45We dropped it, but I'll read it out including the original part. So the recommended motion be an heritage 12 received the staff information for title.

58:53I'm not sure if it's going to be a valid one.

58:56I would say it's going to be an old house rehabilitation of retaining law.

58:59June 3, 2024.

59:01I'm a heritage 12 for staff to evaluate opportunities with the whole or through the building over potential exception for heritage features.

59:09I make a change direct to request for clients.

59:14Yeah, so I was going to say kind of push you and I'm saying direct request.

59:20So really through that one more time then and that heritage 12 request staff to evaluate opportunities with legal or through the building code.

59:28So that's the potential exception is advancing for heritage features along the both of us.

59:35And if that sounds acceptable, someone wants to move it.

59:40Thank you a second.

59:42Thank you Cameron and then all those in favor.

59:45So there.

59:48We're in the same year.

59:50Perfect.

59:51And I think we're good.

59:54Solid data.

59:56Yes.

59:57No problem. So we've got.

1:00:00Pass with everyone in the room and online.

1:00:02Thanks everyone.

1:00:04Now back to our regular.

1:00:06We're going to go to my one, which is new member orientation with a shop.

1:00:12We've lost one garden members though.

1:00:15Hopefully Alice can rejoin.

1:00:23Okay.

1:00:29Thank you chair and thank you committee for reorganizing the items today. I thought, since we had delegation.

1:00:37It made sense to go straight to committee items so that we don't feel rushed during this space.

1:00:48So I'm hoping this can be a pretty informal orientation. I'm going to give some advice that I an insight that I've gained from my previous experience as a member of heritage.

1:00:59I'm going to go through the committee and I'm going to start with a round of introductions and there's.

1:01:06Uniquely a lot of staff in the room today. So I'm going to go through.

1:01:11Go through staff and then I'll invite each member of the committee to introduce themselves.

1:01:16So I'll begin with myself. I am Jack Allen. I've been a heritage planner at the city for almost two years now.

1:01:23Feels like five, but I'm the staff liaison. The heritage committee. So that means that I, I would be nice to have a meeting with the staff.

1:01:33I'm a resource that committee members can come to.

1:01:37If you have questions about a committee item or especially questions about procedure. I know being in full bureaucracy can be rather visiting.

1:01:49And opaque. So if you don't understand something in the agenda, please come to me and I can offer some clarification.

1:01:57I'll turn it over to Stephen.

1:02:00Thanks, Jack. I'm the senior heritage planner, but really only in age.

1:02:05I'm a resource that committee members can come to.

1:02:07If you have questions about a committee item or especially questions about procedure. I know being in full bureaucracy can be rather visiting.

1:02:16Thanks, Jack. I'm the senior heritage planner, but really only in age.

1:02:23But I've been in this position for since 2009, which was actually the 1st time city of wealth had a full time here as planner.

1:02:33And I really am enjoying, I'm just going to say have enjoyed my time, but I'm going to say I am enjoying.

1:02:42And it's fabulous to have such a such a strong.

1:02:48The ability for a strong advisory capacity to counsel through this committee. I really appreciate that.

1:02:55What's also really important about advisory committee like your drop is that you, you are part of what I would call public.

1:03:06But also, and as important as part of the corporate.

1:03:10And being around since 2009, there's lots to see and now not all the heritage members here are long standing some of you're just beginning, but it's great having that.

1:03:23Those levels of corporate memory that form our discussions.

1:03:27And that's the heritage conservation. Welcome all who are new and thank you very much to all of you.

1:03:35Thank you, Steven.

1:03:38Invite our researchers Bob introduce himself.

1:03:42Hi, my name is Bob Robert, I'm in trouble. I try to keep down these days I'm heritage research assistant. So I do a lot of the kind of coming through primary sources that eventually go towards things or designations.

1:03:58Most of them into any state. So, we're doing things like of sorts of things, which is great.

1:04:06Thank you Bob. So now I'll turn it over to the work side of the room starting with Liz or meeting coordinator.

1:04:13Hi everyone and sorry for those online. I think.

1:04:16I saw the science get off the screen, but I'm Liz Barbara, the first office.

1:04:22I'm the first office. I'm supporting committee coordinator. I've been with the clerks for three years now and supporting our heritage well staff.

1:04:32I'm also working with the committee's work. So we will attend meetings to take minutes help Jack with the agenda or any procedural advice as well during committee meeting.

1:04:45We're always available to answer any questions.

1:04:48But we're kind of in the background listening taking minutes as you all meet.

1:04:53I will say as well that we found Joey from the clerks office who offers.

1:04:58We also wanted to make sure that we can host hybrid meetings. So very much kind of like what we do with counsel.

1:05:04There's a few of us that work on the back end to make sure that those meetings are both virtual and in person. And then we also have a special guest today from the clerk's office.

1:05:14I'm going to have Carrie who is essentially being me today because she's shadowing my role because I will be going on maternity leave at the end of this month.

1:05:25So you'll see a few clerks office staff who again sit in the background, listen, take minutes, but we're always available for questions procedural advice.

1:05:37And it's good to have friends in the clerk's office.

1:05:41Very important people in the city and my clients, but yeah, so we're just here to do all the procedural stuff.

1:05:48Basically.

1:05:53Thank you, Liz. And last but not least, we have Craig.

1:05:58My name is Craig. They see I have the policy planning for I've been in the department for just over 2 months now.

1:06:07I've worked with kind of different departments, but what I'm doing right now permanently heritage is calling the website as well as our internal records.

1:06:16Just to make sure that all the designations heritage properties are up to date current and appropriate.

1:06:22There's about 2000. I think about 1600 right now.

1:06:26Exciting stuff has to be here. Yeah. Thank you.

1:06:30You know, Craig is going to be more involved in the agenda circulating process over the next couple of months. So you'll probably be hearing from him.

1:06:39More as time goes on.

1:06:41Okay, now over to the committee. So I'll start with our chair Sarah.

1:06:46So, Sarah, I just think of melodies. If you see how I run.

1:06:52So, I'm sure everything on. So, Sarah, a second year on the committee also second year as chair, which is no one else wanted that role. I don't have a silences.

1:07:02So I could volunteer, but it's been a bit.

1:07:04I guess I get it once, which is part of this committee. And I'm a professor of university book and planning department. So I bring some planning expertise in some capacity. I think.

1:07:13And you'll know that my role is very much for so much.

1:07:15I'd be the organization allowed sessions to go as informally as possible. So all the madam chairs today are throwing me out for sure. And if not, it's scary for future meetings. But yeah, welcome to the committee to build an area.

1:07:28And I'm going to send her.

1:07:31Thank you, Sarah.

1:07:33Our vice chair can probably.

1:07:35Nice to meet you. I've been on the committee for two years. I've been by the chair for two years as well. Also volunteered to do an episode.

1:07:46I'm a manager. I'm a co-founder. Yeah.

1:07:53My career. I'm always an architectural consultant.

1:07:57With a master's with architecture. I'm also a certified artist, but I also, I sit on the heritage team as well.

1:08:02So I work a lot with cultural heritage landscapes and I like to help bring any landscape perspective.

1:08:11Required.

1:08:13Council member, Councillor Fathie Downer.

1:08:16Yes, I'm Fathie Downer, the City Councillor for Ward 5 and which is an appointed non-voting

1:08:25member to the committee a couple of years ago and I'm enjoying it since.

1:08:33Thank you, Kathy.

1:08:34Let's go to Chaudhatt.

1:08:35Also, I'm like the rest, I'm a volunteer and originally I'm an architect, the normal

1:08:46planner and I am enjoying this.

1:08:51I have a background in both architecture and urban planning.

1:08:57It's fun to be this kind of a small one.

1:09:02My experience is basically overseas more than in here.

1:09:08Well, enjoying it for us to be here in Guelph.

1:09:12Thank you, Chaudhatt.

1:09:14Cameron.

1:09:15Sure, thanks, Jack.

1:09:16My name is Cameron.

1:09:17I've been on the committee since 2022, I think, beginning of 2022.

1:09:22My background is in engineering, so I used to work in engineering.

1:09:25It's all things for building all the building restoration type projects, but now I look

1:09:29at the

1:09:59David, Laura, Iris.

1:10:03Hi everyone, I'm Laura. I work in consulting archaeology for TMHC out of London.

1:10:15So I have a bit of a different perspective than many of the folks on our committee in terms of heritage, built heritage protections.

1:10:24I've been doing archaeology and consulting for the last 15 years and my company also does heritage work as well. So, yeah, I'm coming at this from a different kind of perspective.

1:10:37Laura and Miranda.

1:10:41Yeah, my name is Miranda Corman. I live in Guelph and have an interest in heritage buildings and landscapes, although I historically worked in human resources.

1:10:52So, joined the committee in, I think, November 2021.

1:10:57And I guess 3, yeah, almost 3 years ago now.

1:11:04Thank you. Okay. Now over to our new members. I'll start with Kelly.

1:11:09Okay. Hi everyone. Thanks. Nice to meet everybody. I'm a real estate agent in Guelph. I've been in practice for about 13 years. I had to look that up this morning.

1:11:20Because I figured someone would ask me.

1:11:24I threw my hat in the ring for this committee, not honestly, not expecting to get picked if I'm perfectly honest because I thought there's definitely people that know a lot more about heritage properties than me.

1:11:35But I'm very passionate. Something I'm very passionate about. I don't anymore, but I have lived in a heritage home. It was my first house. Well, non designated, I believe.

1:11:45And that really helped me develop a true appreciation for these sort of things. I thought I'd make people to bring a perspective to the committee in terms of.

1:11:58I'm obviously very tapped into what's happening with housing and, and specifically the housing crisis and our mandate to grow.

1:12:06But I'm also committed to doing that in a way that honors the past in the city of Guelph. And it's a beautiful city.

1:12:14We're not, we can, we can accomplish a lot in real estate and housing without.

1:12:21You know, doing this so in a way that does honor.

1:12:24So, I'm excited. I'm very, it's great to meet everybody. I love your straight forwardness. This one right here. I'm already going to be sitting beside this one.

1:12:39So, I, thanks for having me. I'm very honored.

1:12:44Thank you, Kelly. And last but not least Alexander.

1:12:49Hi, yes. I'm from Guelph. I am a Masonry contractor.

1:12:57Based out of Guelph and we work primarily on pre 1940s brick and stone buildings. So I hopefully can add a bit of that experience to the conversation.

1:13:07And before that, I graduated from the Willowbank School of conservation heritage conservation with a diploma.

1:13:16So, happy to get involved with the discussions and, and, you know, help steward in a small way as the city changes and grows.

1:13:26Thank you.

1:13:28Thank you, Alex. Thank you everyone.

1:13:32I would just like to say with the addition of our two new members. I think we have one of the most diverse committees that the heritage committee has ever been equal. We have such diversity of skills and I think that will only benefit heritage planning.

1:13:47So, I'm going to speak a little bit about what we do here and the different roles of staff, the committee and council.

1:13:58I think understanding our different roles and how they function within municipal government and within the heritage act can help us to be as effective as possible.

1:14:10So, to begin heritage planning is a type of land use planning that is focused on seeking solutions to the proposed loss of a historic place.

1:14:21And I'm always reminding myself that this is where we usually begin on an issue is a building or a landscape is threatened in some way, whether that's neglect or development.

1:14:33And our my job as a heritage planner and your job as a committee is to find compromise between the needs of the present and the need to conserve our history.

1:14:47And so I think compromise is the key word here.

1:14:51Preventing loss often means meeting in the middle of development and conservation. And that often requires concession from both development and conservation.

1:15:02So the job of heritage staff is to negotiate these compromises with property owners and try to seek solutions that are mutually agreeable.

1:15:11This means that Steven and I have to try and remain neutral. I see us as referees kind of balancing the interests of development and conservation.

1:15:23So everything we do as heritage planners occurs through the Ontario heritage act.

1:15:29And at the committee, we primarily deal with designations and heritage permits. My number one word of advice for new members is to become as familiar as you can with the heritage act because at everything we do for the most part flows through the heritage act.

1:15:48So, a big thing we we spend a lot of time on is designation.

1:15:54So designations can either be reactive, meaning we're evaluating an evaluation for designation was triggered through the proposed demolition of a property listed on the municipal register.

1:16:06Or designation can be preemptive, meaning that while there might be not be a direct threat to a property, it's being considered for designation because of its cultural heritage value.

1:16:17So, more and more we're focusing on preemptive designations because we are set to lose our municipal register at the end of the year.

1:16:26So the province has kind of forced our hand to move in that direction.

1:16:32The other main thing staff bring to the committee are heritage permits. So heritage permits are required for any alteration to a designated heritage building.

1:16:42Alterations can range from from minor permits for things like window replacements or major permits for new construction or demolition.

1:16:51Minor and major permits as we discussed today with the railing those are approved by crystal walkie who's our general manager who was sitting just over in the corner for most of the day.

1:17:03New construction and demolition permits are approved by council. So I just wanted to specify that so you know that who your advice is going to when we bring those to the committee.

1:17:15So, does anybody have any questions on anything I've said so far.

1:17:22No.

1:17:25I'll speak a little bit about the role of the committee, but I'd like to emphasize to new members that the best resource for understanding your role as a committee member or your fellow committee members.

1:17:36I think everyone is now set on the committee for at least a year. So, and we've had a very busy year. So everyone's a veteran by now.

1:17:48So, before I was hired at the city, I was a member of heritage 12 and 2021 and 2022. So I've seen both sides of the aisle so to speak.

1:17:58As a committee member, I viewed the roles of the committee as providing sober second thought to and peer review to heritage permits and decimations or heritage matters in the city of wealth.

1:18:12And formally, according to the heritage wealth terms of reference, the committee's mandate is to provide advice to council on identifying and serving cultural heritage resources in the community through designation, education and stewardship.

1:18:27So, as a staff member, I can say that I really appreciate the committee's advice, you know, whether it's supplemental information about designation research, a second opinion on heritage attributes, or review of technical studies like heritage impact assessment or conservation plans.

1:18:48I have made a better planner by having all of you work to work with. And even when there's disagreement between staff and the committee, I often find that such disagreements challenge me to think critically about my own work.

1:19:03And again, ultimately make me better at my job.

1:19:08I do want to emphasize also that I don't think the committee's role begins and ends in our meetings. There's a lot of members can be doing outside the parameters of the terms of reference.

1:19:19And this includes recruiting delegations, you know, and staff, bringing a committee item to council. I am not allowed to recruit delegates because I have to, again, remain neutral.

1:19:33But this is something that committee members can do and I think Kathy would agree that oftentimes delegations can sway city council in one way or another.

1:19:45You can also recruit, encourage people to attend our open houses or events that we have. So we have with heritage district studies, for example, we'll have an open house where we're seeking community engagement.

1:19:59You know, the more people that can attend better. And I know staff do our best to try and advertise it in the community, but all of you have different networks in the city that you can tap into to help kind of encourage awareness of these projects and encourage engagement with them.

1:20:18Okay.

1:20:21So, enough from me, I'm going to kind of open the floor to either Stephen or Bob or committee members if you have any insights or tips that you'd like to share with our new members, or if Kelly or Alex have any questions for staff or other members on the committee.

1:20:40For is yours.

1:20:43I want to hear your comment about sober second thoughts.

1:20:46Yeah, because it's like, you know, especially when someone like me was just a researcher historian by trade, who are doing these things projects over weeks, weeks, times sometimes you get really attached to it.

1:20:56And so, you know, especially when you have to be more of a neutral arbitrary or referee, you get this little question so I do you know my, my, my love, my beloved.

1:21:07I think it's going to be great. Yeah, especially for, for having people to have more of a frank approach to you where you hold back that rose color glasses.

1:21:19I just, is there a resource or can someone drag me to a place where I just want to understand the closures of any conflicts.

1:21:30I don't do any work with builders, but for example, you know, like just a lot of lawyers, lawyers and stuff and I were just like a bit of guidance.

1:21:40Maybe there's even a resource online. I can't.

1:21:43I prefer you to list for questions.

1:21:46Yeah, I can connect with you. Okay, let's do that.

1:21:51Yeah, it's really great that we've this is more, not just an online meeting. I always prefer people talking about carriage conservation days to days, but it's really great that we've got such a strong presence from the first.

1:22:07And it really is, it's, it's, it's teamwork from a staff perspective that really helps get the job done. But the one thing I wanted to mention, and we, it's an heritage wealth is one of the advisory committees, but it'd be really good for everyone just just to have a think about what's,

1:22:27what's the same or different with being an advisor as opposed to an advocate.

1:22:33This is not a negative description of advocacy because advocacy actually is really important for our future conservation public standpoint.

1:22:42But I think it's just really important to understand the advisory role that heritage wealth has.

1:22:48And even in its relation with with staff as well.

1:22:52Staff themselves are advisors.

1:22:55But I think there's a, there's a mixture of both those things that helps get the right thing done.

1:23:03I found helpful.

1:23:11You know, the committee is that because he has done that for 10 days ahead of time. So, you've not the opportunity to add any input going forward.

1:23:19Like for my one of you, if you're something.

1:23:21I think it's just helping wealth, terrible to tidy up background.

1:23:28So, I encourage you to look at the agenda like that and see if you can be added.

1:23:34Yeah.

1:23:35Thank you.

1:23:38I guess, if Jack and Stephen can send them the first couple presentations that you did to us, you know, in terms of, you know, the role of the comedy and that it was, you know, very beneficial for me because I always used to go back to them.

1:24:02And I would like to send them as a, you know, a refresh to refresh your memory, my memory, but for you as an introduction to know you exactly what's your role and heritage, you know, act all these things, you know, and the bill 23 and things like that is

1:24:22important that you have to be familiar with or lately on those things are in grace here, you'll be familiar with this.

1:24:31Thanks.

1:24:32That's good advice, Jared. I can follow this meeting up with as much resources as I can think of there. I've also tried not to.

1:24:42There is a lot to digest.

1:24:48I would also recommend when the comes out and you've read through the staff reports, actually visiting the properties.

1:24:57It can be a fun, like Sunday afternoon or Saturday or whatnot, but it helps get off the street and really understand the property.

1:25:04But not that's really helped me to understand a lot of what's the content.

1:25:13Yeah, I can't remember who all attended. There was a advisory committee of council workshop host last April.

1:25:22I believe from a previous former city solicitor and Sudbury, I think he was talking about how council and advisory committees and staff function optimally.

1:25:34Something he underlined is that you don't have to wait until the committee meeting to talk to staff. If you see something on the agenda that a you disagree with or that you just have questions about or that you just like to discuss.

1:25:50Stephen and I as the report offers are always available to discuss that. Oftentimes, those discussions can be very fruitful to have before the meeting so that everyone is as informed as possible.

1:26:03So, yes, I always encourage contacting Stephen or myself if you have any questions.

1:26:09And if you can't tell these guys love history.

1:26:14You get the chance to really get them going. You'll have more than one of them after 10 years.

1:26:19And maybe just know that they're both super receptive to you. But I'm the guy who never felt for bother. I mean, we're probably on our own.

1:26:30I just have one more thing when you're when you're out looking.

1:26:34I just want to warn people there's there's it's habit form.

1:26:38So, I keep going out and looking at here and his problems and just be safe. You know, when you're driving.

1:26:44Yeah.

1:26:46But, and especially when you're driving don't try to picture.

1:26:50But when you're walking on on in the public realm. Yeah.

1:26:55Not on private property.

1:26:59Feel free like feel free but also encourage the members to take pictures.

1:27:04In fact, I have this idea that one day, maybe we'll have sort of a photo contest among the areas golf members to find out a what what buildings really or what buildings or landscapes you really find interesting but also.

1:27:19How innovative ways to actually show them because sometimes 1 of the best parts of the building is the little detail that you see at the street.

1:27:32So, any other thoughts or questions Alexander.

1:27:44This is outside of the current conversation, but are we receiving an update on.

1:27:50What's going on at the manner.

1:27:52Yes, we'll get to that when we get to agenda item 5 chair and staff announcements.

1:28:03But in that in that vein, unless anyone else has anything to add. I'm satisfied that we can move on to the next agenda item.

1:28:12If you're if you're ready madam chair.

1:28:16Madam.

1:28:19Yeah, absolutely. Let's get on to item.

1:28:22Which is 22 James.

1:28:25But not less than the agenda. So, 22 James.

1:28:30Cultural heritage evaluation report.

1:28:34Thank you.

1:28:40Sorry.

1:28:41So, I trust everyone of you reviewed the staff reports. So, I am just going to provide a very brief overview and then I'll restate the statement against the determined for this property.

1:28:56So, 22 James Street.

1:28:59West East.

1:29:01Thank you. East 22 James Street East.

1:29:05It was built as a substation for the Toronto suburban railway between 1915 and 1917.

1:29:14So, if you aren't familiar with the Toronto suburban railway, it was an electric streetcar service that ran from Toronto to 12 parts of the rail bed are now used as walking trails.

1:29:29So, specifically with regards to this property, you can find the nearby wealth radio line hiking trail and that is actually the former rail bed of the Toronto suburban railway.

1:29:42So, if you do go to this property in person, I suggest you walk further down James Street, and you can find the actual rail bed.

1:29:53The substation was built to service, explain expansion of the TSR to Kitchener. Now that line was never completed. And so this was never actually used as a station for those electric rail cars, but it was used as a rail car barn.

1:30:11And as far as staff are aware, this is the only built heritage resource in the city associated with the Toronto suburban railway.

1:30:20It was built in the Boards style by Charles Briggs. Charles Briggs is a significant name because he would go on to become the chief architect for the Canadian National Railway.

1:30:31So, staff believe that this is certainly a significant building in the city and it's the last message of the Toronto suburban railway aside from those rail beds.

1:30:44Here are Ontario Regulation 906 evaluation. We found that it meets four of the nine criteria for determining cultural heritage value or interest.

1:30:58It meets criterion one being a designer physical value because it is a rare example of the functional Boards style and wealth, and a rare extent example of a building associated with the Toronto suburban railway.

1:31:11It meets criterion four because it is directly associated with the Toronto suburban railway which provided a vital service to wealth residents between 1917 and 1931.

1:31:23The TSR also served the nearby prison farm at the Ontario Reformatory.

1:31:34The TSR is also met by its association with Charles Briggs, a significant architect who served as the superintendent architect for the Canadian National Railway.

1:31:46It meets criterion five because it yields information about the history of the Toronto suburban railway and lastly it meets criterion eight because it is physically and historically linked to the rail bed that is now used as wealth, radio lined trail.

1:32:05So, I'm happy to take any questions or if you notice any errors in the report. I appreciate your feedback.

1:32:18Any comments for Jack?

1:32:24I think it's really cool that link are unique for the city with history with the railway there.

1:32:29This question is the brick painted building right now or is that yes, yeah it is painted on there.

1:32:36And then in figure four, I went to front of the line it looks like there's a outline of something in the ground there is that a new, anything is out of the way just an old fence or wall or anything like that or stuff.

1:32:51That is a good question.

1:32:54Cameron, I don't have an answer.

1:32:56That is the head.

1:32:58Yeah, there in the photo in figure three that photograph of the head row perhaps it was just an engine for that we can look into.

1:33:07Nice.

1:33:08The property was this is a very difficult to get close up photos after I've got a lot of aerial photography aerial photographs very far away and very side of the image so it's hard to get them.

1:33:20Pre 70s or pre history from when it was the apartments that's kind of when the photograph.

1:33:29It's.

1:33:31How's the end.

1:33:33Do we have any indication of where the railway was in relation to that building I'm trying to just see on the map that was posted.

1:33:44It's not clear to me.

1:33:48When you're on the trail, it looks like it would have ran where James Street is today if it continues straight.

1:33:56Actually, in figure.

1:33:58In figure three.

1:34:01Yeah, if you look at the fire insurance plan on figure three, you can see where the rail bed would have run.

1:34:10I hope that contextualize a little more as well. The rail would have actually run up and crossed over the river on Gordon Street for coming up and actually heading into the cars and street like main central railway station.

1:34:21That's where passengers actually would have interacted with the railway. This was more of like the rail bar and like substation so people wouldn't customers or passengers wouldn't necessarily in this area.

1:34:33This is more like a.

1:34:35Good questions or seeing the motion I did change the motion as well.

1:34:52So the recommended motion is that comments provided by heritage 12 members on the 22 James Street East total heritage value report provided to staff and council for their consideration.

1:35:05Is there a Uber.

1:35:08Good job.

1:35:11So that's the finger and job center and then all those in favor, and Laura, if you can, you see random perfect awesome. Thanks everyone.

1:35:21All right.

1:35:22Did you see one, Sharon staff announcements over to you.

1:35:26I can see them. Please talk about these.

1:35:29Thank you, Sarah.

1:35:32I will start now and place Steven to China.

1:35:36With the thing that we all want to talk about.

1:35:39So staff will be bringing five designation recommendations to council at the June 11th.

1:35:452024 meeting.

1:35:47So that includes 14 meet street, which I had an opportunity to speak with representatives of the property owner and they.

1:35:55They didn't come out in strong opposition to designation which is a good thing in my books.

1:36:02167 South folks street West, Bargher glass 408 willow road, the farm.

1:36:11Miranda's house 100 Queen Street.

1:36:15And lastly,

1:36:18211 Silver Creek Parkway South Sleeman mansion.

1:36:24So I'll invite Steven to chime in here, but we.

1:36:28So we were made aware last week painting was happening. It's been going on for two weeks, I guess. So we kind of caught it.

1:36:36Caught it late, but also caught it before it was painted in its entirety.

1:36:43We've requested the property owner not to do any further damage. And they have seemed to agree with that.

1:36:51We are pretty limited in what we can do until a notice of intention to designate is issued.

1:36:58But those discussions with the property owner are ongoing.

1:37:02Turned over to Steven, if you have anything to add.

1:37:05I would just add that I was really pleased. Well.

1:37:11The only thing I was pleased about in the whole situation was that I actually got a phone call from Mrs. Who was driving by and said, did you know that.

1:37:21And all my attention to it. So I just, I really appreciate that.

1:37:27That that move that was made by that person. So, and I would encourage heritage wealth. This is why, yeah, when you're out and about keep your eye on on everything.

1:37:37But also keep your eye on the road.

1:37:43So where proper pve.

1:37:45That's just us.

1:37:48They can remain anonymous.

1:37:51And I guess it's that possibility of removing this type of paint. I don't know what type of thing that is.

1:37:57Is it a base or what?

1:38:01I think it's probably best for me to say at this point.

1:38:06That I'm happy to answer. I'd love to answer all your questions with what I know, but I don't really know a whole lot. Just yet. All I can say is that.

1:38:15The more pain you put on me, the harder it is to.

1:38:21It's but I'm not going to say it's impossible.

1:38:26And I'm looking at ways to try to.

1:38:32Try to make that something that it's a shared goal to restore this wonderful.

1:38:37I got 1 question 1 comment.

1:38:43The question is.

1:38:45Do we know who the contractor is that was hired for the pain application? I'm curious only because of the comments that have been publicly made about the.

1:38:56Owners belief that what they were doing was in.

1:39:01And I think understanding where.

1:39:07See that advice might be helpful.

1:39:11I have to say, I don't know the answer to that. All I'll say is that whatever advice was given was bad advice.

1:39:22And the comment I would make is.

1:39:27Whether or not this advisory committee in conjunction with staff would consider.

1:39:35Make making some sort of public memo regarding the effects of paint.

1:39:43And other sealants on masonry.

1:39:46As far as in the interest of public information.

1:39:54I think that thought, although I think you can listen currently in the announcement section, it's not as we discussed things as questions, right? I see nods from the clerks right now.

1:40:03So, we can potentially add that to the thing later. So just for Kelly and others know when we get to the staff announcements.

1:40:10It is an open for discussion, but you can ask questions so you can bring your comment in the way of a question.

1:40:16It can be responded to, but not for discussion based on policy.

1:40:22Like, I think we're in this as well. Yeah.

1:40:30So, I feel like we discussed the Albion a few months ago and while I've lost all track of time since COVID began, it feels like, or not the Albion sorry the manner.

1:40:40I'm wondering was communication sent to.

1:40:45I don't know if it's Roger that still owns that property or his son.

1:40:49Did they receive communication that this was something that when happened that was of intention to designate and did they, if the answer to that 1st question is yes.

1:41:00Did they understand the heritage attributes that had been identified.

1:41:05Victoria had reached out to the property owner when she was conducting the cultural heritage evaluation, but never heard anything back.

1:41:14And we were going to reach out to them when the agenda for council was posted, which was on last Thursday.

1:41:22I believe so we this and this all happened on Wednesday. So it.

1:41:27I don't think I know it's been floated in the media that this may have been done in anticipation of a notice of intention to designate, but we have no reason to think that is the case.

1:41:40And when you say Victoria reached out to someone was that a telephone call or was that in writing?

1:41:45We send letters so that we have a record.

1:41:48Okay.

1:41:50And do we have any proof that those letters are delivered when we send those out such as a signature or we just send them via regular mail.

1:41:58They, as I understand it was just sent via regular mail.

1:42:02Okay, thank you.

1:42:09I like the idea of some sort of information out there about painting limestone because you just never see it. So, I just don't think anybody has any idea how that's with that damage it or because there is that theory with brick.

1:42:24We'll just paint it, you know, and it's not that big of a deal. I'm not saying that's correct. But that's a perception. I think that's out there, but nobody sees anybody painting.

1:42:36So, I was going to ask.

1:42:40Do we know why they're doing this? I think I'm just going to not ask because.

1:42:45Yeah, yeah, it's not.

1:42:47Yeah, maybe just that. Do we have any of these sort of guidance for property owners that state.

1:42:54The do the dogs or the ideal sort of situations and yes, we do.

1:43:00Well, I think that the city of golf to have more information about this, but we've in our official plan we've always for some time now we pointed to something called standards and guidelines for the conservation of historic places in Canada.

1:43:16And which incidentally all heritage group members should be familiar with it and to be able to recite that title without without having to take a breath.

1:43:26It is it's all over this sort of thing as a don't not a do.

1:43:32And that's another question.

1:43:35Sorry, right. Your hand is still I'm not sure if you have another question or.

1:43:44It's just sorry. Yeah, no, I, I'll lower my hand here.

1:43:50I guess the only thing I would say is I live in a house that's 125 years old or thereabouts and someone painted it and the upkeep on the paint is terrible.

1:44:01I do public information on this is necessary. Maybe this is something that could be accomplished through an article in Guelph today or.

1:44:12Even a mailing from the city for those who live in historic properties just in terms of some really top line Jews and don'ts I would say painting your houses is right at the top.

1:44:25That's it for me.

1:44:27Thank you.

1:44:29I'll frame this in a question this time to make sure I get it right but can you provide.

1:44:39Direction as far as whether we could accomplish drafting public information.

1:44:49I think within a heritage committee, you know, framework like, like the members ourselves is that something we can.

1:44:59I think that's for I know everybody's times are precious.

1:45:05I'll ask was for some input here but I believe we could add something to that effect as a committee item on the next agenda.

1:45:14If the committee would like to discuss painting of masonry.

1:45:19I think that we want to have a larger conversation about which I think it is because it's somewhat going towards the conversation right now.

1:45:27We can add it that's a committee agenda item to think well the next committee meeting would do.

1:45:38I'm just I'm going to move us along for staff announcements. That's okay. If if anybody has any more questions about sleep and mansion please feel free to reach out to Stephen or I and will keep you updated as this saga.

1:45:57So, a couple quick notes. We had been initially intending to bring the downtown wealth heritage conservation district council in July.

1:46:07This has been delayed to the fall.

1:46:11And because there are some other items going to council that deal with downtown wealth and so it's thought that it makes sense to bring them all at the same time.

1:46:21So likely September, October.

1:46:25The first open house for the Ward West heritage district study has been confirmed for Thursday, June 27 from 430 to 630 at the Italian Canadian club.

1:46:37I'll send an email about this to committee members as well as some promotional material if you'd like to circulate it to your friends and family.

1:46:50I have been working with bylaw in the last couple months to draft an amendment to the property standards bylaw that will permit enforcement officers to issue orders to repair for the maintenance of heritage attributes of designated properties.

1:47:04So this specifically can address things like demolition by neglect and bylaws anticipating bringing that bylaw amendment to council in July.

1:47:18So, sorry, I've got too many. I'm going to try and do this from memory.

1:47:23The last thing to note is the provincial government has tabled it was bill 200 I think it is the homeowner protection act. I wish I had my nose in front of me, but part of that proposed legislation is a two year extension to the municipal register deadline that we're dealing with right now.

1:47:42Right now the deadline is January 1st 2025 and that bill proposes extending that by two years to January 1st 2027.

1:47:51And it was tabled by a concerned minister so I'm optimistic that it will actually pass. So we'll keep an eye on that because that would give us a lot of breathing room, you know, an extra year and a half as much more than six months to be two and a half years sorry.

1:48:08Okay, I know that was a lot. Stephen do you have any.

1:48:13Okay, if anybody has any questions for me on any of that.

1:48:21If there are no other questions then our final act today is adjourned so there's a mover for adjourning today's meeting.

1:48:35Kim and the seconder.

1:48:38And all amazing.

1:48:42Thanks everyone and welcome again to the county council.