Heritage Guelph

0:00It's our sort of bonus meeting, our August 14th placeholder meeting that we decided we did need a meeting for. So welcome everyone to our final meeting of the summer.

0:08As we start, I'll begin with the territorial acknowledgement. So as we gather, we are reminded that Guelph is situated on the treaty land that is steeped in rich indigenous history and home to many First Nations, Inuit and Métis people today.

0:22As a city, we have a responsibility for the stewardship of the land on which we live and work today. We acknowledge the Mississaugas of the credit First Nation of the Adish Nabeck peoples on his traditional territory. We are meeting.

0:35And so next on our agenda is disclosure of any pecuniary interest and general nature thereof. So if anyone does, I'll ask them to raise their hand or shout out in your situation. If you can just speak up.

0:47Okay, no, no, no comments from fine. Okay. Thank you.

0:54Alright, seeing no one else raise their hand or unmute will go on in our agenda. So the first item is approval of the minutes from our July 10, 2023 meeting. So if I can have someone move the approval of the minutes.

1:09I approve it.

1:11If you do that, and if I can have a seconder.

1:14Thank you Cameron and then we'll take a vote. So all those in favor.

1:21I'm in favor.

1:23Thank you. And then Laura, I'll need you as well to there you go. Perfect. Thank you.

1:29Alright, that is carried. So our real only agenda item today then is a workshop on the Ontario Reformatory Heritage Conservation District Plan and guideline consultation and that will be a presentation by Stephen.

1:43Thanks very much Sarah. I'm just going to prepare my screen for sharing here.

1:51And if I could just ask Liz to make that possible.

1:56So, Sarah, can you see that in full screen mode?

2:19Great. Okay.

2:22I'm trying my best to provide the longest possible titles for presentations. So I think I'm the, I'm the.

2:30I've got first place so far.

2:33Today's presentation is and the agenda format in this section of the agenda anyways is in the form of a workshop.

2:42I'm happy to provide a bit of an update on how things are going with the Ontario Reformatory Heritage Conservation District Plan and guideline preparation.

2:53But the main focus here will be the committee's consideration and consideration of some questions that staff have put together for in regard to the statement of the consultants proposed statement of objectives and the guiding principles that would become part of that

3:17and the Ontario Reformatory Heritage District Plan and guidelines when it's, when it comes to in its future preparation.

3:26So today is really it's a discussion ahead of time to try and get some feedback input from the members and to help facilitate that later in the presentation.

3:36As you see in the material that was circulated to the committee, there are some questions that I'd like to try and facilitate or guide the committee members through.

3:46To begin with, just the outline as you've seen in the in the material that was circulated.

3:52I'm going to talk just briefly about the the Ontario Reformatory Heritage Conservation District study and its boundary and forgive me if I'm not sure if I'm supposed to spell out acronyms, but I think that's probably a good idea for people to get used to.

4:10So that ORA CD is what we'll talk about to get started. I want to talk about the existing context and the current heritage status of heritage attributes and areas within what is now the Heritage Conservation District boundary area.

4:28We can then talk about the purpose of the ORA CD planning guidelines and really get down to item number four, which is presentation, essentially, of the numbered objectives from the consultant statement of objectives, then moving on to the guiding principles.

4:50So what what we'll finish up with is discussion and again, as Sarah has said, this is really the the main and only a formal item on this agenda. So we've got lots of time for discussion and I want to make sure that the committee members have have their questions answered or at least,

5:08at least I want to be aware of what things I should be looking into if I can't provide the any kind of question or answers to questions today.

5:16So let's move on.

5:18Before you as you're, you're well aware the Ontario Heritage, the Heritage District for the Ontario Reformatory has its boundary and that was approved with the study in March 2023.

5:33It's important to understand that the Ontario Reformatory lands, at least when I refer to the lands, it I'm referring to the, the lands that were purchased in 1910 by the province of Ontario for the purposes of establishing the reformatory.

6:21So just to illustrate that, I'm hoping this isn't too washed out for you to see on the screen but I'm hoping it was clear enough in the materials circulated. You can see, it's actually a plan from, I believe it was created in the early 1920s by the province to to

6:41demarc and to set out what was already on the ground within that, that what's what should be called the Ontario Reformatory lands or original lands.

6:54I just, I always like to include this image in presentations in discussing the the reformatory. But it's also I think a really important image to keep in mind when we're talking about what our objectives are, what the principles are,

7:10and what what are what we would try to achieve with conserving heritage in a balance with other interests and and requirements that the city may have the current heritage status of the area we're speaking of.

7:32You must, it starts with in 2008 the province of Ontario identified a portion of the property known as 785 York Road as a provincial heritage property of provincial significance.

7:45A portion of the Ontario Reformatory lands still owned by the province was identified as a candidate cultural heritage landscape in the city of Guelph's cultural heritage action plan in 2021 in June of 2021.

8:00This significance was also recognized by the city when in the city designated the property known as 785 York Road under part four of the Ontario Heritage Act in October 2021.

8:15So just to illustrate the on the left is an image that shows the cultural heritage landscape identified as in this in the cultural heritage action plan as the Guelph Correctional Center.

8:28And on the right is the property owned by the province known as 785 York Road with the black outline.

8:36And within that the yellow area is the area containing the area of the cultural heritage landscape of provincial significance.

8:49So I wanted to make sure that the committee members are clear on the individual designation of 785 York Road and again that's the black outline.

9:00The yellow area is the area of provincial significance.

9:04There's a yellow area that points to 919 York Road, which a property that is outside property owned by the province.

9:13It's owned privately but it contains the Matthews Farmhouse and Stone Shed.

9:19That property is currently under the intention to designate that property is currently under appeal.

9:27And below that I've identified just in general terms the location of the chapel, the reformatory workshop buildings, its powerhouse and chimney, which have all been listed by council on the heritage register as non designated property, non designated heritage attributes.

9:46The Wood and Tressel Railway Bridge, which is part of 785 York Road has been listed on the heritage register.

9:55And within 80 Dunlop Drive is the reformatory quarry cultural heritage landscape area also listed now on the heritage register.

10:07McQuillan's Bridge or the concrete bowstring bridge on Stone Road East has been designated under its own individual bylaw.

10:15So those are that that would summarize essentially the heritage status of areas or heritage attributes within the area identified in the ORHCD study or the boundary itself.

10:33I want to move on to the next section which basically leads into discussion of the objectives and guiding principles for the Ontario Reformatory Planning Guidelines.

10:49The purpose of the plan is to ensure that cultural heritage value of the ORH lands is not RR I should have made that correction before presenting this as this PowerPoint.

11:03The is it to ensure that cultural heritage value is protected, managed, maintained and enhanced over time.

11:12So the ORHCD Heritage District Planning Guidelines would provide the City of Guelph, future owners and tenants of the property with guidance on managing change, restoration and alteration activities involving cultural heritage resources.

11:29The planning guidelines would provide guidance to assist council, heritage Guelph and staff in reviewing and making decisions on planning and heritage permit applications proposed within the HCD.

11:41The purpose of the plan is to confirm the HCD boundary as has been identified.

11:51It's to describe the the heritage district cultural heritage value and significance and include a statement of objectives and to provide guidelines founded on the statement of objectives and recommendations from the study that would provide a consistent approach to managing change alterations and maintenance of the

12:11Ontario Reformatory's cultural heritage attributes.

12:17So we move into the statement of objectives which has been proposed by WSP the consultants on the ORHCD project.

12:30The main objective of the planning guidelines is the is to confirm the long term protection, conservation and management of the HCD's cultural heritage landscapes and built heritage resources.

12:47The objectives as you've seen in the material that you've had a chance to review there. They're numbered. There are 16 objectives altogether.

12:57And I don't think it's necessarily or necessary that I read out each of these individually.

13:07So before I'd like to just jump to information later in the in these slides to talk about the planning context, the policy planning context and the secondary plan.

13:21We can come back and we'll come back to the objectives and the guidelines or guiding principles after that.

13:28I'm just going to move through those 16 the guiding principles and talk a bit about the future planning and heritage conservation.

13:41Other land use planning tools that will guide development in the ORHCD are the Guelph Innovation District Secondary Plan and the Block Plan for Area 4.

13:53It's important to understand that land use will not be defined or changed in the HCD plan as the GID secondary plan sets out the land use.

14:05So potentially there could be recommendations for official plan policy and zoning regulations resulting from the Heritage District Planning Guidelines.

14:16So really just for review, I present an image from our official plan and the section that is the Guelph Innovation District Secondary Plan showing the land uses.

14:29And also the purple area here which represents part of the proposed Heritage District boundary area which equals the Block 4 in the Block Plan process.

14:48I want to revert back to the statement of objectives and I started to mention that I don't think it's necessarily the case that I'll need to read through all 16.

14:59Sarah, I'd look for some direction from or suggestion from you if you feel that's necessary. I'd like to highlight some of the points that are more in my mind more important.

15:13And it's, the members should feel free to point out or to ask questions about any of the objectives or principles through the discussion.

15:25I'll start out with objective one and two because I think they really need to be read together.

15:33So, a specific objective of the Ontario Formatory Heritage Conservation District Planning Guideline would be to conserve, as defined by our official plan and the provincial policy statement, the cultural heritage value of the Heritage Conservation District and its heritage attributes.

15:53Second, the objective is or should be to conserve the cultural heritage landscape attributes in alignment with the city's natural heritage policies and objectives.

16:05Now you're probably going to hear me use the word or say the word balance or striking a balance of term like that within this discussion and I think that's a really important key to

16:18coming up with a Heritage District Plan that does a good job with all of these interests together.

16:29So, the objectives are to conserve the physical aspects as laid out in objective number three, to conserve, recognize and attribute the presence of indigenous settler and reformatory periods throughout the Heritage District area.

16:49And to conserve the physical form, scale, architectural features and heritage attributes of the built heritage resources.

16:58I'm just going to move on to the next slide or next set.

17:04As I've mentioned, objective number six or I've made reference to the Gulf Interim Innovation District Plan and the Block Plan process.

17:14It's important to keep that in mind when in reading our what eventually would be the Heritage District Plan and its guidelines and any proposed policies within that.

17:25It's meant to work together with official plan policy and the Block Plan process.

17:35Objective number eight, it's important for a Heritage Conservation District Plan to recommend a Heritage Permit process that would be most appropriate for proposed change within that ORHCD.

17:51That's something that would be considered and presented within the ORHCD planning guidelines.

18:00And managing change using the Heritage District guidelines would ensure new development conserves, maintains and enhances cultural heritage value of the Heritage Conservation District.

18:17Objective number 11 reads very well after that.

18:21It's encouraged that high quality design and new development additions and alterations that are contemporary, sorry, can complementary and compatible.

18:37I'll move on to the next.

18:40Oops.

18:42The final five of the objectives.

18:48The objectives are to encourage development and alterations that that would might be proposed adjacent to that Heritage District that those be studied and that those minimize negative negative impact to the heritage attributes of the district.

19:06I think I've already mentioned the idea of the importance of balancing the interests of cultural heritage conservation with natural heritage strategy and natural heritage objectives.

19:19Objective number 16 I think is very important as well to consider that the Heritage District Plan should conserve, maintain and enhance the recreational aspects and public amenities of the Heritage District.

19:33And with a similar aim to balance that with cultural heritage conservation.

19:40In the term or the reference any reference to engineering or or the requirements or objectives of the city's engineering projects is also an aspect of public works that needs to have strike be considered when we're striking a balance between cultural heritage conservation and what's what's required in future change within and around the Heritage District at the

20:07Ontario Reformatory.

20:11So on to the guiding principles.

20:14The or HCD planning guidelines would be based on the accepted principles of Parks Canada standards and guidelines for the conservation of historic places in Canada.

20:27And include the principles developed from the or HCD study.

20:35So these guiding principles again I don't necessarily feel I need to read out them all but I think it's it's important that they the principles.

20:46And I think that the protection and maintenance of cultural heritage landscapes associated with water courses while seeking a balance with natural heritage system objectives and ecological restoration initiatives.

21:02And the principles that form a cohesive landscape, including water courses, circulation routes and built features that together form a recognizable whole shall be conserved in accordance with the city's natural heritage plans and policies.

21:23I'll move to the next polls.

21:29It's the principles are posing to ensure that alterations to cultural heritage landscapes and to institutional and residential built cultural heritage resources that they continue to reflect the city beautiful movement wherever possible changes during the course of restoration and

21:52rehabilitation and alterations would be documented concerning the cultural heritage and historical context of the HCD as outlined in the study.

22:02I think it's important in the in the on this page the last repair the last principle would be that repair rather than replacement of cultural heritage resources through ongoing maintenance and conservation is recommended.

22:19Where repair is not feasible and replacement is necessary replacement features should match the form and detail of original materials.

22:28And the last slide of guiding principles also deals with features that may have deteriorated to a level that's beyond practical restoration or rehabilitation.

22:45Those would be assessed and future options would be outlined.

22:50This second last point is important in consideration of the goals of the G the Gulf Innovation District Secondary Plan and adaptive reuse that the continued function of built form heritage resources is encouraged by the or HCD planning guidelines through adaptive reuse.

23:14And that building alterations for additions and other interventions should be undertaken in a manner that respects and enhances the cultural heritage resource and the or HCD.

23:29So we've been through the future planning and heritage conservation information here.

23:37It deals with the mentions the GID secondary plan and the block plan process.

23:43I'd like to now move to the discussion time and staff are looking for input from the committee members in this workshop format.

23:58And I'd like to it. I'm hopeful this this helps facilitate that discussion just by presenting three questions essentially.

24:08So we're staff is is making notes of the responses that the committee members will have and we'll be happy to provide that feedback that we received from heritage wealth to to WSP our consultants and the input from heritage wealth would be it would be maintained

24:29that in future reports to council or to senior staff and to council that heritage wealth recommendations or comments would would be included within that.

24:40So you've seen the three questions in the material that you've reviewed but I'll just just maybe start by reading out the first question.

24:48And I would be happy to maybe turn things over to Sarah to facilitate the discussion once the question is posed.

24:57Do you feel that the stated objectives and guiding principles are appropriate.

25:03And what, what would you change.

25:09I'm, I'm not sure if it makes sense for me to stop sharing now. Would it be easier for people to see the screen Sarah.

25:16Yeah, I think it might be easier for us to facilitate discussion because we should all have access to these materials.

25:21But thank you first Steven for the presentation and the overview.

25:25So that's the first question then posed by Steven. I'll just open the floor and if anyone wants to just speak I see Cameron's hand is up already so Cameron I'll go to you first.

25:33And a couple quick questions.

25:36Just, I think, I want to ask at the beginning before we get too far into it. Stephen you mentioned our comments will be recorded by staff will those be included back in the meeting minutes as well for us to review.

25:51I'm not hesitating on purpose. I'm just trying to find my mute button. The answer is yes that Jack is furiously typing as as I'm as I'm talking and and you and you're talking.

26:04Great. Okay. And then secondly, maybe a silly question, but can you just sort of explain the difference between the objectives and guiding principles. A lot of them sound like they read kind of the same to me like what's the difference between the two.

26:17And can that make it into the actual final documentation or is it like what's the purpose of having principles and objectives.

26:26It's my understanding that objectives can be quite specific within a heritage conservation district planning guidelines. The guiding principles.

26:39As in comparison would be more general or overarching.

26:46I think they may have been presented first in the order here, but it may it may make sense to start with the guiding principles and then moved from the less specific to the more specific in the objectives, but I believe that's the main reason for having both is the ability to to have an overall.

27:05Description and then get to specifics.

27:09Oh, okay. Yeah, thanks.

27:13And David.

27:14You're just you're some you sorry.

27:22Thank you.

27:24The objective of the principles in terms of their substance.

27:28Pretty fine. I'm wondering if there's a way to organize them a little better in terms of the content. Because for example, in the.

27:40Objectives like cultural, the cultural aspect is mentioned.

27:45There's four of them 1, 2, 7 and 13. The indigenous is 4 and 14 something for the procedures of the city of 12.

27:53You know, our 1012 and 13 would maybe possibly some sort of either subtitles maybe would.

28:01Putting together ones that are more appropriate more.

28:06Similar to each other have it might make some sense because when I look at them, I mean, they're good, but I get lost. You know, and trying to make their 16, like 27 different entries under both of them.

28:17So, if there was some type of organization to have similar ones together, I think would be helpful more helpful.

28:23If we're using these when we're evaluating.

28:27Thank you, David. That's a great suggestion.

28:34It's if the committee members are having trouble keeping their understanding the organization of this part of the document.

28:42That that's a good thing for the authors to know about.

28:47So, you're suggesting that that may be the order of items within the objectives or the guiding principles of maybe even grouping things.

28:58Like, like principles together.

29:03Right. Yes. Themes that are related should be in the same order and then possibly subtitles if that helps, you know, like indigenous considerations or cultural considerations.

29:16General considerations, you know, it would just, I think would certainly help me if I'm applying that.

29:22I'm trying to look at any.

29:25David, when you say subtitles, does that maybe like a subheading?

29:32Yes, yes.

29:34Thanks. David, are you are you done there?

29:45Well, that's very probably in step. Yeah. So it's Miranda here just just in the guiding principles.

29:52Where there are a couple of points here around the.

29:56You know, deterioration or difficulty in repairing some aspects of the.

30:04I've built form heritage resources, etc. And the wording is, is I just, I would want to understand, I guess, where we say.

30:15The everything should be undertaken alterations, additions.

30:21Another intervention should be undertaken in a manner that respects and enhances the cultural heritage resource.

30:28There's also language around where heritage features have deteriorated to a level that is beyond practical restoration or rehabilitation will be assessed and future options outlined.

30:41I guess I'm not clear who would conduct that assessment or outline future options.

30:48Am I too far ahead of the.

30:52The intent of this presentation here, Stephen, or is that something you can explain a little bit? I'm just worried about, I guess, the amount of wiggle room that I see in some of this wording for someone to say it's really beyond practical restoration.

31:05It's not feasible to repair this.

31:07And therefore it should be demolished. For example.

31:10I think the scenario would be involving expert opinion and reports likely in the form of.

31:23Like a condition report or heritage impact assessment or.

31:29In some cases, a conservation plan.

31:33So it's all, it's all those types of reports that would be considered as requirements for discussion and in order to make decisions based on the physical integrity of elements that are protected as heritage attributes within the district.

31:49Does that start to answer your question, Miranda?

31:52Yep.

31:54Yes.

31:56Will that sort of detail be added at some future date?

32:00Or will that be nailed down in terms of what the process will be in the event that the land is purchased by someone who says, for example, this particular building.

32:121 of the walls has come down really fixing it is not feasible. And so, you know, the building is unstable and should come down.

32:19Will there be some sort of process that is really clear to a purchaser, for example, or or someone developing the property in any way that.

32:28That they'll have to follow in the event that they have.

32:32Because we know that the inside of some of these buildings are not in great condition.

32:38Sure, could I assist with this 1.

32:40So, I think Miranda, you were on to it when you were asking if you were getting ahead of yourself in the process. Yes.

32:47Today at this point, we're at the objectives and principles. So that's the high level guidance for the planning guidelines.

32:52Each of these principles and objectives will have a section within the planning guidelines that outlines what the requirements are in relation to that general topic.

33:03So we're really at the point of, did we capture all the general areas where guidance should be provided within the plan?

33:11So, obviously with the with the questions that you're having around the resources that may be deteriorated.

33:18Did we get the principle right? And then when you see the draft plan, which will be the next opportunity for consultation with heritage Guelph, you'll see what guidance and process is being proposed in particular for the Ontario reformatory.

33:34Okay, good. Thanks.

33:36Thanks.

33:43Please.

33:44I have a certain clarification here, you know, and the purpose of the, you know, the plan is protection management.

33:58Maintenance and enhancement.

34:01How, you know, like how to maintain it. Now, I can see all these except how to maintain it. You know, like it's going to be a bit difficult to, you know, maintain.

34:14It's, is this in the technical approach, you know, to maintain it to preserve it like technically, you know, the, as mentioned before, you know, like the walls and all these things are you going to be seeking through this plan, you know, something in this, in this context.

34:33And another issue I have what worries me is that, you know, like, you have the, you know, the zoning bylaw of this, this, you know, lot.

34:44You know, you know, you have the existing buildings. Now a developer is going to come and the developer is going to, you know, definitely, it's not a come, you know, free of charge, you know, he has to come and do some buildings.

35:00You know, these buildings, what's the ratio of them compared to the land, you know, and all the, it's very vague mentioned here, you know, preserve the architecture of the visual and, you know, the vision of the, you know, buildings and the landscape and not, you know, like, if you go to the zoning bylaw of this slot, it's not clear, you know, you have plenty of options that you can do on the slot.

35:26And, you know, there should be something, you know, in this aspect, I don't know if you cut my mind, you know, comment in this.

35:38So the zoning bylaw also plays an important role here, you know, maybe this plan can go into it and maybe suggest certain activities or, you know,

35:53because this will endanger the whole site if someone comes up and do, you know, like a building that has no coherence with, you know, this building.

36:06Also the building itself, you know, they're going to alter it, definitely, they're going to use it for something. You know, a developer is not going to come, you know, like free of charge.

36:18So he has to come and do something about this building. So in this respect, like a vision about, you know, what possibilities can happen would be an added value in this respect.

36:31I don't know if, you know, like I exceeded the limit.

36:37But, you know, for me, I'm worried, you know, like I'm looking at things from a developer point of view, a developer to come and invest in this slot.

36:49He has to, you know, make profit. It's not a charity issue. So in this respect, we have to be sure to, you know, have clear regulations to, you know, like, to be sure that the buildings are well protected.

37:06The landscape is not, you know, abused. The trees are not, you know, like neglected or being like hidden, you know, etc.

37:16So thank you very much. This is basically what I'm worried about. Thank you.

37:24Thank you.

37:27Jou dad, I just like thank you for that that input. I think that's an important concern that's shared. And as I mentioned, when I was referring to the GID secondary plan and the block plan, that also there there's there is a high potential that recommendations for the official plan policies and for the zoning regulations that

37:51recommendations would come may result from the Harris district plan and be part of that. So that's, that's quite quite possible that the Harris district plan could influence how zoning regulates and

38:07keeps keeps control, proper control or appropriate control within the Harris district area.

38:22As for maintenance, for example, is this, you know, how to maintain and preserve? Is this going to be also covered in this plan?

38:33The plan will make recommendations.

38:37Particular section about, I mean, there'd be a section specifically about demo about the process that would guide and control things like demolition, things like property standards.

38:49That sort of thing in its own section. So, yes.

38:53Thank you.

38:56Cameron, I think I saw your hand up. Yeah.

38:58Yeah, thanks. Just a quick question.

39:02It looks to me like there might be no mention of the provinces involvement in this considering that they own the property. Does there need to be some under even the principles or the objective some some discussion about what role I O plays in this or.

39:17I know they're trying to divest themselves with the property, but I mean, they still own it currently and who knows how long.

39:23This is just a thought.

39:27It's a good thought to, it's a good point to raise Cameron.

39:32I think it's important for the Harris district plan to speak to provincial ownership of part of the heritage.

39:43Here proposed areas district area.

39:46And not to just assume that by the time the district plan is available or in full force and effect that the province wouldn't be an owner or a major landowner within the area.

39:58So it's something that the consultants should be considered. They are considering.

40:03And I'll make sure that that that's one of the.

40:06Obviously that that's feedback that's coming from here to just go off to to confirm that.

40:11Thanks.

40:12Just to the committee, I just want to clarify on that point, the heritage conservation district planning guidelines, the bylaw for it.

40:19Will not come into effect until the province divests itself of the lands. So while they are the owner, the planning guidelines do not apply.

40:28They under the act. There's a separate section of the act that applies to provincial lands. So.

40:35Just to keep that in mind as as we're developing this.

40:41Melissa, that's a really good point to raise and I would just add to that to say that the current individual designation of 75 York road is the is the same that it doesn't come into full force and effect until that property or even parts of that property or are no longer owned by the province.

41:03Sarah, I'm not sure if there are other questions relating to sorry other questions coming out of the initial question that I had read out, but I'd be happy to read out the second facilitation question if you like.

41:17Sure.

41:20And that would be to the members if do you think the guiding principles provide a balance between preservation and managing change.

41:29And should they be stronger or more permissive.

41:33What would you remove or add.

41:43Stephen a quick question you have this just for the guiding principles, but can we if there's changes to objectives that maybe folks would like to see stronger or changes or additions. Can we talk about that as well?

41:54I see no reason why not.

41:56Just in your comments earlier about the objectives and be having more teeth in the document where the guiding principles are sort of this overarching piece.

42:05Maybe not just limiting it to guiding principles if there were any other sort of suggested changes for some stronger wording if folks felt that was necessary.

42:16We are we're open to the feedback and input from the committee. So, I definitely think that some of the wording in the guiding principles could be stronger.

42:30You know,

42:32similar to what I said earlier where there's some wording there that says where rehabilitation or restoration is not feasible. I'm not reading from the document. I'm just going by memory here.

42:44That there's some, instead of not feasible. I a word that would be stronger certainly would be impossible.

42:56And instead of should in some areas.

43:00You know, these these aspects should be considered must could be the word that is that replaces that instead of should.

43:10Yes, I also agree. You know, especially also when you know, when you recommend a permit, you know, permit should be the requirement, not a, you know, you know, recommendation.

43:27You know, all these, you know, like, you know, instead of encouraging or so be more, you know, obligatory, you know, to do a bite bite.

43:39I shout out if I could just respond to that specifically, I think the recommendation regarding heritage permit, it's a it's about the heritage permit process that the district plan would recommend to the city.

43:53What it feels would be the most appropriate heritage permit process, as opposed to just the plan stating, okay, this is how it's going to work.

44:02And more the plan will make recommendations, provide guidance as to how the city in consultation with, you know, heritage wealth and other staff, you know, that so the district plan would would be making its recommendations about the permit process as opposed to, you know, I don't want that line to be giving you or anyone

44:26to mention that heritage permits are necessarily, you know, optional.

44:32There may be cases where it's considered that a heritage permit might, there might be as is usual with heritage, heritage districts there may be

44:45actions or alterations that are exempt from heritage permit.

44:53Consideration and that's also what the heritage district planning guidelines would state and what sort of things could be done without oversight or with approval of a heritage permit.

45:12Cameron and then David.

45:14I just want to disagree with what Miranda said that a lot of these objectives and principles seem a little bit vague and could be written in a stronger fashion. This, for example, you know, objective number 11, which says encourage high quality design.

45:29To me, like, what does that actually really mean high quality design in terms of what just, and I'm sure that'll come maybe later in the more detailed versions, but it does seem a little bit vague in some areas.

45:41David.

45:45Right on Cameron's point as well. The use the word encouraged is a little.

45:51Like it's really very passive.

45:54The second last objective, it says the continued function of built form heritage resources is encouraged. I wonder if we can replace that type of wording with shall, like a shall wear.

46:05Practical or something like that to make it more of the guiding.

46:10Principle rather than just a.

46:14And I have one comment after that too. I think there's a few where I like that idea of the sort of active voice. So the guiding principle on repair rather than replace cultural heritage resources through ongoing maintenance and conservation.

46:28Maybe leading with ongoing maintenance and conservation must occur in order to whatever so that it states that first part of the more important piece.

46:36We don't want to get into a replace situation. So if we must.

46:40Concert or have maintenance and conservation, we ideally won't have to worry too much about replacement and repairing. So maybe it's just that that active passive voice. I think as David just highlighted.

46:50Sir, these are all good points.

47:01Thanks.

47:02Steven, can I ask a good question just on timelines and reporting back so.

47:07With these sort of suggestions today, what does that look like for.

47:11Bringing this back to the committee and additional input and what does that timeline look like.

47:16It's the timeline currently as Melissa had alluded to or or.

47:23Or mentioned the next time.

47:27The plan and guidance.

47:29And that's we're shooting for the.

47:33The time period before the public consultation, which would be in the middle of the fall.

47:41So this is something that inputs coming, but would come back to the consultants and they would be incorporating where it's appropriate.

47:51The input feedback changes that sort of thing that may be appropriate.

47:59So potentially.

48:01September, at least by the October meeting, it sounds like if we're talking mid fall before it fall at least getting it back to the committee for additional review.

48:10That's correct.

48:11Okay. Thank you.

48:13I could more questions if nobody else.

48:15Yeah.

48:16Individual designations.

48:30We, Steven, we know there's a few buildings or resource on the site already individually designated is.

48:37Should it be written in here that additional individual destinations might be considered if deemed necessary going forward? Like, or is that just a given.

48:47I'm thinking of other other buildings in the site or like the trestle bridge or the other buildings in the site or like the trestle bridge or the other buildings.

48:55Or like the trestle bridge or things like that that might need to be considered for individual.

49:02It's, it's something that's that's possible to, to make a reference to that that that's something that the city has the, that has the ability to move on individual designations in its own schedule.

49:16It's not tied to, I don't believe it's tied to or held back by the.

49:21Part 5 designation process.

49:25Just keep in mind what's already been mentioned that a heritage attribute or building or an area that is within provincial ownership.

49:33It wouldn't, you know, whether it's part 4 or part 5, it wouldn't actually be in full force and effect until it's not owned by the province.

49:42And I would just offer on that that I think it relates to draft objective number 1.

49:47Um, conserving the cultural heritage value and its heritage attributes. So, um, where we're at the objective, like the high level, like, what do we want to achieve kind of statements as opposed to an action.

49:59So, um, the individual designations may be an action that comes out of objective number 1, for example. So you would, you may see that in the, in the draft plan.

50:09As opposed to here.

50:11Right. Okay. That, that makes sense.

50:13The question going to objective 12.

50:20Which is the 1 that speaks to development and alterations that are adjacent to the area to minimize negative visual impacts.

50:30What sort of power does the or that still for discussion, like, can it actually limit anything like across the street? For example, or would that include city owned assets as well?

50:44You know, is it somewhat, does it always have to be encouraged?

50:47It's just seems wish you watch it like does it actually have teeth to prevent or limit things that are adjacent to the site?

50:53Cameron in our official plan currently where the city has the ability to, to require impact assessments for proposals that might might be proposed in a property that's adjacent to protected property.

51:11And if it's, it's really meant to be an opportunity to study the proposal to see if there is in fact any, any negative impact on the heritage attributes of the protected property.

51:25So, if it were to be determined that there is negative impact, then the city could move to to, you know, there could be controls or changes put in place to mitigate or to avoid or mitigate as it sees sees fit.

51:44So, you know, things like impact assessments are quite common for as a process as a dot as a report or an analysis that would provide a description of what the impact actually would be for these kinds of adjacent proposals.

52:03Okay.

52:04Okay. Yeah. So I guess that goes back to our earlier point that it says encourage right now. I think it maybe it should be more stronger active language there.

52:12Just just further on that the planning guidelines cannot apply itself to lands outside of its boundary. What it can do is provide us with recommendations. So, as Steven was saying that our official plan already has the policies for adjacent lands and heritage impact assessments, but this could go.

52:28Just for example, perhaps providing recommendations to the city to consider in terms of zoning regulations for adjacent lands, but it cannot impose it itself through the plan.

52:40Okay. Yeah. Thanks.

52:44That's it. Oh, sorry. One last question. There's mention of water courses. Does that include the ponds in there? Or is it just waterways?

52:57The, and the it's meant to consider.

53:03It would include on's large or small, you know, the waterways that are within the heritage district.

53:12Those features that contribute to the cultural heritage value of the heritage district.

53:20Okay. Great. Thanks.

53:22Sarah, I could again, I could read out the final question if you like.

53:29That would be.

53:33What do you think will be the positive impacts of the heritage conservation district? And what are your concerns?

53:41I think broadly speaking, you all probably share the same sort of positive impact being that if it is sold tomorrow or hopefully not tomorrow, once this is all in place that the lands are protected.

54:02I think that's probably pretty broad and and thorough overview. I think of the, the most positive impact of this.

54:13Don't want to speak for everybody, of course.

54:15Are there positive impacts anyone wants to highlight or any concerns? Miranda? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

54:23I, this, this property is important to all well fights. There's a lot of our.

54:30A lot of our history there and really everyone in Ontario has an opportunity to visit this property that is unique.

54:37And so knowing that it is protected for future generations and hopefully even restored somewhat the areas that are suffering.

54:47That would be a real win. That would be to me.

54:50Worth any headache involved in creating this cultural heritage district.

54:57You can't put a price on that property in terms of its value in our history or for everyone that I see daily walking there.

55:08I don't know it's so important.

55:13Can I comment?

55:16I really like it. You know, it's a good approach. You know, also it has mentioned that it will help the committee in the council, you know, to.

55:26It or against them to a certain degree on how to, you know.

55:323, you know, permits that are to be applied, you know, development applications that are going to be in the process in the future.

55:43And as I mentioned, I hope it can be a bit more specific, you know, and more protective in terms of zoning and, you know, because I'm really worried.

55:56That there might be some alteration.

56:00And the new developments that will be built on the on the on the site and adjacent to the, you know.

56:09So, thank you.

56:15David, I know you're on mute. It's the go ahead.

56:18I'm just repeating what dad said, but if we have this is to provide some guidelines for future.

56:25Project anything in future that comes with the fact that we've gone through this exercise will help future heritage 12 committees and city councils in dealing with similar projects.

56:49Can I ask a small question like phase two, when, you know, like hopefully, if we have the chance to review the proposal, the primary, you know, study that will be coming.

57:04Will we have a chance to do some alteration on it or it will be, you know, like almost final. So how, how, you know, how much can we add to it.

57:16And the next phase when we want to review it. And we do some changes to it. You know, to what extent. Thank you.

57:27The intention is to bring back to heritage Guelph the, the basically the draft.

57:34Here is district planning guidelines in order that the committee can provide its commentary and suggestions recommendations.

57:42And again, like much like this meeting here so that we can communicate that to the consultants.

57:48But actually when, when the plan comes to the committee for that consultation, it will be will be joined by the consultants themselves. So I anticipate having quite a quite an in depth discussion with the authors themselves and with city staff presence so that we can really get

58:07a, we want to try to bring everyone to agreement about about the document that that staff would be supportive of, but we also want to make sure that that the commentary and and sort of constructive criticism if there is that that be heard as well and entered into the mix.

58:37Just maybe a follow up question from that from Joe that's question. Would this maybe be a special meeting that we do a separate meeting just to focus on this just given that I mean we've been talking for 70 minutes already on just sort of this small piece of the, the plan.

58:51Is that something that we would have as a separate meeting or would it be part of a regular meeting. And maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.

58:58I don't think you're getting ahead of yourself Sarah as much as I think that's a really good consideration to keep in mind.

59:08We want to give people enough time. First of all, enough time to consider or digest the information that circulated and then give enough time for the sort of in person or virtual in person discussion about about the content itself.

59:25So it may be that even past for our existing heritage district that process did involve special meetings or that purpose.

59:36That's quite possible.

59:38Thank you. Yep, Ken. Quick question. Will there also be additional public review public consultation on this like a meeting or presentation or.

59:47And I'm assuming there will be, but I just want to know what the timeline could be for that.

59:51The plan is to bring the draft to heritage wealth 1st and then and also to the community and landowner group for its consideration and then be presented to in the public more public forum.

1:00:08Knowing already what's what some of the feedbacks or the or the main like the results would be from from consultation with heritage wealth.

1:00:18Just a clarification on that. The 1st step is the draft statutory public meeting with city council and that kicks off the public consultation on the draft planning guidelines.

1:00:29So, in and around the statutory public meeting will be the consultation with heritage wealth.

1:00:36The planning guidelines will be released to heritage wealth and council.

1:00:41Approximately 20 days prior to the statutory public meeting. So the, the consultation events.

1:00:47We are starting to move into the statutory process.

1:00:52So, it heritage wealth.

1:00:57Whether it's a special workshop or a workshop within a regular meeting will be held in and around the same time as.

1:01:03Councils statutory public meeting.

1:01:06Thanks.

1:01:10Are there questions or comments from anyone regarding any of this? Not just necessarily the positive or positive comments or concerns.

1:01:26Stephen, is there anything else you wanted to note or share on this?

1:01:36Sarah, I don't don't think so. I just would like to thank the committee who's attended today for for your input. That's really valuable. And it's important to the consultants consider the, you know, what's what's been offered.

1:01:49As they're preparing the draft district planning guidelines.

1:01:53Thank you all.

1:01:55Thank you.

1:01:57So, I might look to Jack and just see if there's any staff announcements. There's no chair announcements today.

1:02:04There is Melissa will be providing a staff announcement to Melissa then.

1:02:10Thank you. So we did want to provide an update on the non designated.

1:02:17Property at 2187 Gordon street. So, as you're aware, there's a stone slot barn located on that property.

1:02:25We have been actively monitoring that property with our property standards staff.

1:02:33And order has been issued. This latest order has been issued as a result of an unfortunate incident where.

1:02:41A stone wall has collapsed on the north side of the barn.

1:02:45So that order has been issued.

1:02:48And it is now in the purview of property standards in terms of compliance to that order.

1:02:54We have been, as you're aware, as part of our priorities for designations, we have been doing our research work for the properties within the Claremont be secondary plan area.

1:03:05And as you know, the secondary plan policies are under appeal, which includes all of our cultural heritage policies. Unfortunately, as well.

1:03:13Our intent is to bring forward the cultural heritage evaluation report for 2187 Gordon street to this committee at your September meeting.

1:03:21For consideration.

1:03:24And also, as you're aware, since the property is listed on the municipal heritage register.

1:03:32Demolition is controlled and requires approval of city council.

1:03:37At this time, there has been no application or consideration of demolition. The property standards order has been issued for securing and stabilizing the building.

1:03:48So that's our update as of now.

1:03:51The next point you'll see it is on your agenda in September.

1:03:58I think that's all the updates we have right Jack.

1:04:02Yep, that's right.

1:04:04Excellent. Thank you.

1:04:06So the next camera and I don't think we can.

1:04:09Are we allowed to talk about it? No.

1:04:11No, not with announcements. We're not allowed to have discussion.

1:04:14Okay.

1:04:16Sorry, it's Liz from the clerk's office questions can be asked is just no, like general conversation can.

1:04:22So, if you do have a question from less that you can.

1:04:25I take it back.

1:04:28I guess my question is, I mean, when did the city know that this building was in such poor condition that it might part of my collapse? And I think the answer is not.

1:04:38As of a few weeks ago, it was years ago.

1:04:40So just again, just kind of it's disappointing to me that.

1:04:44You know, it's been it's been talked over so long without actually being designated and now here we are where.

1:04:49It's demolition might neglect basically. So, just want to express it. It's disappointing to me.

1:04:55So, to keep that as a question.

1:04:58Yes, sorry.

1:05:00Property standards orders have been a previous property standards order had been issued on the property.

1:05:07I can, I can't confirm whether at this time, the full details on compliance with that order.

1:05:18What we can say is that it is unfortunate. It does appear that whether this spring contributed to decline.

1:05:30At a more expeditious rate than had anyone anticipated.

1:05:35But at this time, we do have our property standards bylaw and it has been applied. So all of the city processes procedures that are at our disposal are being used.

1:05:44Okay, thanks.

1:05:51Any other questions.

1:05:57Thanks, Melissa. So the next thing is just adjournment. If I could have someone move adjourning our meeting.

1:06:03I see Kim Sam went up and then a seconder.

1:06:08Job that thank you all in favor raise hands. Laura Miranda. I will need to see you back on screen.

1:06:14Perfect. Excellent. Thank you everyone and we will see you. I'm guessing remotely in September. All right. Bye. Bye everybody. Bye. Bye.