Planning Advisory Committee

0:06Let's start with the First Nations Acknowledgment.

0:09As we gather, we are reminded that Guelph is situated on treaty land that is steeped

0:15in rich indigenous history, at home to many First Nations, Inuit and Métis people today.

0:22As a city, we have a responsibility for the stewardship of the land on which we live and

0:25work.

0:26Today, we acknowledge the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation of the Anishinaabek

0:31peoples on whose traditional territory we are meeting.

0:39Next, I guess I'll do the disclosure of pecuniary interest and general nature thereof.

0:45I'm assuming nobody has anything to disclose.

0:50Alright, that's all those.

0:56Did you want to do your staff announcements now or should we just approve the minutes

1:01from last meeting?

1:03Well, maybe it'd be good to start with some introductions.

1:08I think we have a lot of new people.

1:11Okay, sounds good.

1:12Okay, we have everybody introduced, so we could start with staff.

1:21Sure, I'll jump in.

1:27My name is Abby Watts.

1:29I'm a policy planner at the City of Guelph.

1:32Hi everyone, my name is Keshela Mathews and I'm also a policy planner here at Guelph.

1:44Good evening everyone, my name is Donna Tromblay and I'm from the City Clerk's Office and I

1:49will be providing any procedural advice you need tonight.

2:00My name is Joe Westin and I'm the legislative coordinator for the Clerk's Office.

2:04I'm just in the background doing the team support, so the camera's not on, but I'm here to support you guys.

2:09Thank you.

2:11And I'm Paul Hinnissiak.

2:15I'm obviously chairing this meeting and somebody wants to go next.

2:23Paul, would you like me to help you out as to who the new members are this evening?

2:30Yeah, I mean I see some new faces and some ones I recognize.

2:36Alright, so why don't we go in alphabetical order and we'll start with Morgan.

2:44Hey folks, that's me.

2:46Yeah, my name is Morgan Boyko.

2:48So this is my first meeting.

2:51Happy to meet you all.

2:53I don't know what you want to hear about me other than my name.

2:57I live in kind of the northwest part of the city with my wife and three kids.

3:03I'm a planner by background currently doing a PhD in planning at the University of Waterloo.

3:08And I also do some part-time work with the consulting firm.

3:13Anyway, really looking forward to working with all of you.

3:19Thank you.

3:21And next we have Maria Fonaro.

3:23Hi, that's me.

3:25This is also my first meeting.

3:27So my name is Maria and I'm a business owner and property manager.

3:35And so I'm also very much looking forward to participating in this committee.

3:41And our third new member is Justin.

3:45That's me.

3:49So I'm Justin Luth.

3:51I'm a pretty recent grad of the University of Guelph's Bachelor of Arts.

3:55I graduated about a year ago now.

3:59And I am currently working in design in the senior living sector.

4:05And that is all for your new members.

4:07Awesome.

4:09Do any of our existing members want to introduce themselves to new, I guess, jump it over to Darren or Lisa.

4:28Hi, my name is Lisa McTaggart. I'm a landscape architect.

4:34This is not my first term on the planning advisory committee.

4:40I was joined when this committee was first formed.

4:46And I, another hat I wear is I'm the president of Trees for Guelph.

4:52And I have been doing a lot of advocacy work for tree canopy.

4:58And that's the hat I wear when I come to these meetings as well as the tree advocate.

5:04I'll go next. My name is Darren shock.

5:08I am a planner by training as well as Morgan.

5:17But spent very, very long time working with the tree.

5:23But spent very little time in my career actually as a land use planner.

5:29Most of it's been in economic development. I work for the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs in a non urban planning role in an economic development role.

5:39I'm the vice chair of the committee and like Lisa and Paul have been on the committee since it was formed.

5:45Hi everyone, my name is Marion. This is my first meeting.

5:56Currently, I'm working as a waste policy assistant with city of gual. And then I recently finished my undergrad in environmental study in urban planning for my master.

6:08I can go next.

6:16My name is Adam. I don't have a planning background.

6:20I'm a current PhD student in computer engineering at Waterloo.

6:28And this is my second meeting as presented the previous one.

6:34Thank you. I think that is everybody.

6:43All right, so I think we can probably move on to approval of the meeting minutes from the March 1 meeting.

6:49We get somebody to move in a seconder.

6:53Darren and Lisa second.

6:59And then we can go on to, I guess, committee.

7:14Just one announcements. One small procedural thing. Just ask if there's anybody who is opposed to the.

7:20Oh, it's opposed. Yes. Sorry. This is my, I'm very new at this.

7:24Yes, was anybody opposed to it?

7:28I don't know. I don't think there ever has been, but you never know. All right.

7:44And then, yeah, if Abby, did you have staff announcements you wanted to jump into before we go into the presentations?

7:56So we do just have an invitation for committee members to join a complete streets design guide workshop that engineering is hosting.

8:07I will send around the invitation from engineering. There is a requirement to respond by.

8:14May 17th, if you're interested and the.

8:18Workshop dates are May 24th, 11 to 1 and May 25th.

8:246 to 8. So there's a commitment if you want to join.

8:29To attend 1 of those 2 workshops. So, we'll make sure this invitation goes around. If anyone's interested.

8:36The contact is Daniel D. Pietro in engineering services.

8:49Is that everything for your announcement? That's all.

8:53Awesome.

8:55Okay, so I guess we will move on to.

8:59Committee items, the proposed planning statement or review of the key changes to the provincial policy statement and growth plan. So, I think.

9:08Rachel is taking over, I presume.

9:11That's great. Thanks so much.

9:15Joey, I'm just going to start sharing my screen if I can.

9:20I'm just going to wait for him to give me the go ahead. Okay, perfect.

9:26Section here.

9:34Are you guys all able to see that? Okay.

9:37Yeah. Yeah.

9:40Okay, great. And you can't see my notes or not that I have any, but just to make sure that it's the right screen.

9:48You know, before I begin or actually that's the wrong presentation. So, sorry.

9:53There we go.

9:59It's busy night tonight. So there we go. Okay.

10:03I thought just everyone gave a bit of engine. I thought this is a really great meeting to join because this is my 1st meeting as well.

10:11As I'm a new member at the city of Guelph and just in terms of a bit of background. So, you know, where I'm coming from as well.

10:19I, I've done mainly policy my entire career and I worked at a regional municipality just down the road on regional growth management strategies and official plan writing official plans and that sort of thing.

10:34So my background is in geography and I have my PhD as well, which is a background in water policy and ethics. So, planning is, is, is where I'm at, but I have a bit of a different background as well in terms of where I come from with some of my ideas and things like that.

10:54So, anyway, just to give you just to give you a bit of background there before we get into the proposed planning statement. And so.

11:01Oh, we can't I can't see your screen anymore is and is that everybody else seeing it or no. Okay.

11:09Is there sorry and I can't see you so is everybody screen yeah.

11:14I'm not seeing the screen anymore now.

11:19Okay.

11:20I think when you switched PDFs or something maybe.

11:24I'm really okay. Let's stop sharing.

11:30Okay. Sorry guys, let me try this one more time.

11:42So it went so well Joey when we did it the first time.

11:47Okay, I'm going to switch the presenter to a different person switch it back to you and hopefully the prompt will make it.

11:54Because you still can't. Yep.

11:56So can see it though just be a moment.

11:59Okay.

12:10Let's try this one one more time. Okay.

12:15There we go. There we go. Okay. Thanks Joey.

12:20Perfect. Okay. So the provincial.

12:24Policy planning statement so.

12:27I'm going to take about 20 minutes to do this and I'm really sorry I would like to take shorter. It's just that this is a lot of there's a lot of stuff that's that's come out of the proposed planning statement.

12:38And I just would like to give you guys a good flavor for what's coming out of it and in a high level overview. There are some questions that were provided by the province that we will be responding to a staff, but it would definitely be great to get your feedback and input on that as well.

12:52So, just because I think we all have a different levels of knowledge and familiarity with planning in this committee.

13:01I'm just going to start really basic in terms of what is the provincial policy statement or pps is I'll be referring to it throughout the presentation.

13:09So what it is is it's really is just a it's a land use policy document. It's a foundational document that we use to outline the planning goals and objectives across the province.

13:19And what it can be used for is to determine the layout of a community, how communities built in its natural environment.

13:26What is required with the provincial policy or the pps is that local decisions so decisions made in Guelph. They have to align with provincial interests.

13:37Another layer of of good stuff. Fun stuff is the planning act, which requires also that municipal decisions be consistent with the pps.

13:47So, in this type of document, the pps and other pieces of legislation and planning language matters a lot.

13:56So phrases like shall be consistent with in our world is synonymous with a requirement. So we must do this in order to comply with what the province is telling us to do.

14:10So, in terms of the current pps, which was revised in last revised in 2020, this does provide some direction on key land use planning issues, such as the efficient use and management of land and infrastructure.

14:25So making sure that we use what we have and to maximize and optimize our land and infrastructure. It provides direction on the provision of sufficient housing, including affordable housing.

14:38And that's a topic that we'll get into in a bit more detail.

14:42It provides direction on the protection of the environment as well as opportunities for economic development and job creation.

14:50So, something to keep in mind in is that planning and development in Ontario is extremely it's a policy led process. And so that means we as planners and people who would like to get involved typically need to understand that it's a really layered process.

15:08And that you must you've really got to understand the content and the application of the relevant pieces of legislation and plans and policies and guidance and all that thing.

15:17Suff to see how they hang together so that there's consistency.

15:21So, in terms of the growth plan, which is also part of this work that's been released by the province.

15:29This is another relevant plan and it's called a place to grow growth plan for the greater golden horseshoe and for those of you who are unaware of the greater golden horseshoe is the GTA and then a little bit beyond so really the fastest growing areas around the GTA.

15:45And this piece of the legislative and policy puzzle was introduced in 2006. And really, there were 3 sort of big goals in mind when it was introduced. And the 1st was to reduce urban straw sprawl.

16:00The 2nd was to make sure that we're supporting the creation of compact transit supportive communities. So, I think that those are sort of phrases that you've hopefully heard.

16:13Over the last almost 2 decades, as well as optimizing existing land and infrastructure. So, again, you can see sort of that duplication or that similarity between the PPS there.

16:25Some of the foundational policy concepts that came out of the growth plan in 2006 and that we've been using to guide policy within our within wealth and other municipalities as well.

16:39Are things called population and employment intensification targets. So really that's just ensuring that a percentage of growth and development happens within a defined space and that defined space for is called the built up area.

16:53It has also introduced.

16:56Concepts like settlement area restrictions. So what that means is requiring municipalities to provide justification.

17:03For potentially expand things. So, why do you need to expand and and that is through a process called a land needs assessment and that was just recently done in Guelph.

17:13To shaping Guelph, the sort of the growth management strategy and the work done through official plan amendment 80.

17:20And so what that does is show if and how much and where future growth should be directed.

17:26And then one of the final pieces of the growth plan is the interaction of things called.

17:33Urban growth centers and you can think of that basically as your as our downtown.

17:39So, I know you can't see the words on this. It doesn't really matter. What I focus on is essentially the colors.

17:46So, this is the map for this map and this is one of the maps in our official plan schedule one and it's called our urban structure. But these are what I was mentioning some of the terms before so the built up area, which are all the lighter purple spaces that you see here.

18:01This is the north end of Guelph just for reference downtown with lawn, Victoria.

18:09So, I'm going to show you a places in Guelph. So anyway, the lighter purple is what's referred to as the built up area.

18:18These sort of beige parts of land on the outside. Let's go to what we refer to as green field area but you can think of those so sort of is more your suburbs if you would like, sort of more peripheral development.

18:32So, what we have here is these darker purple here and here sort of orangey are what are referred to as strategic growth areas. So, there are the areas that we would like growth to go to in the future to around 20 over the next 50.

18:48Over the next to 2051 essentially. And then finally, you have your downtown here, which is the urban growth center.

18:58So, a bit of familiarity with that. And then there's also employment areas. You can't really for a city or community to work, you need jobs and housing. And so you have our employment areas as well.

19:10And these again are shown in purple and then we have something called a provincially significant employment area and that's over in this area. So, just to orient yourself to residential and built up areas as well as employment areas.

19:27And employment can mean anything like it can be clusters of businesses and economic activities essentially. So it can include manufacturing uses, warehousing, office uses retail and other facilities associated with with what I just listed.

19:42So, why do we need to revise these two documents? Why do we need to revise the PPS and a place to grow? So conversations about this started back with the introduction. Well, probably a bit before but more.

19:59Recently with the introduction of bill 23, which is the more homes built faster. And that was introduced in the fall of 2022.

20:07And the province really wanted to streamline policy in order to advance the objective of building more homes faster. And so they floated the idea of merging these two pieces of policy, these two policy documents.

20:23And so they did what's called an ERO posting or a posting on the environmental registry of Ontario and they had a commenting period. And so staff provided comments in December of last year and provided some high level considerations for the province.

20:41So, for example, one of those considerations was carrying forward the concept of complete communities that included a range and mix of housing.

20:50So that was a higher level concept that we wanted to see kept within the PPS and the girls plan as well as some more specific policy considerations. And those could be to strengthen or to eliminate or somewhere in between.

21:04At the request of the province as well, the city also made a pledge in March of this year to work in good faith to facilitate the creation of housing supply and wealth at an accelerated pace.

21:17So again, really making sure that we're working with the province to try and achieve their overall objectives in a responsible way.

21:27Then on April 6 of this year. So just last month, the province released a proposed provincial planning statement and they're now consulting on that, which is what I'm here to talk to you about today.

21:39And that those comments are open until June 5. So we're working on our response right now and as of actually earlier today, I think we'll be releasing an information report this month at some point.

21:54So we can keep you updated on that.

21:57But that information report can include some of the comments that we may receive tonight as well from this committee.

22:03So, I, some of the key policy areas that I just like to highlight where some of the biggest changes have occurred are these right here.

22:15At the time that I was making the slides for this presentation, I hadn't actually fully been able to go through the entire proposed planning statements. So there are 2 other areas I will highlight just verbally, including these, which will include sort of the changes to climate change as well as water and wastewater

22:32services.

22:33But I'll do that at the end. So housing.

22:38It's a big topic right now as it should be. So the proposed policy statement.

22:45Some of the key changes are that it identifies wealth as a large and fast growing municipalities. So there have been 29.

22:52That have been identified through this proposed pps. And what that means is wealth can now set our own population and employment growth forecasts.

23:04Currently, these are set by the province. They provide us with the forecast that we're mandated to meet.

23:09I'm in the form of targets.

23:12So we have been municipalities have been given potentially added flexibility and control over growth.

23:19The proposed pps also removes intensification and density targets, except in 2 specific areas.

23:26Sorry, yeah, sorry in 2 specific areas, which are those strategic growth areas that I showed on the map they were strategically scattered over wealth where we'd like to direct growth.

23:38As well as the major transit station area and our major transit station area is a co station, but the area around it, which is downtown is also our major transit station area.

23:50So, while it does eliminate mandatory intensification and density targets, it, the wording in the proposed pps does encourage municipalities to establish.

24:02Um, targets based on local conditions. So again, providing a bit more flexibility and control in terms of what how we'd like to plan within wealth.

24:12There have also been broader permissions that could potentially be established for residential intensification. So, if you've heard the term density before.

24:24Or missing middle sort of opening up more housing options that are available.

24:30That could be built. So, um, garden suites laying my homes, those sorts of additional residential units. For example, I think we've all heard about those.

24:40Um, what it also what this.

24:44Work also does or the proposed pps also does is.

24:49It removes definition of affordable as well as low and moderate income households from.

24:56From policy direction and so what that means is that municipalities would no longer have to set any specific targets for affordable housing.

25:07And so without a clear definition for affordable housing or low and moderate income households.

25:14We wouldn't necessarily have a clear benchmark to facilitate the construction.

25:19Of affordable housing or to hold those who indicate their building or providing affordable housing to a standard level of affordability. So that's 1 potential implication of this proposed pps.

25:33Um, at the same time, eliminating the requirement for municipalities to establish.

25:40Affordable household targets means that we would also no longer have the mandate to monitor and measure progress in achieving affordable housing in our communities.

25:50So, on 1 end.

25:55The goal of the provinces to increase housing supply that could be seen as a as a good thing on the other end it could seem counterintuitive in terms of.

26:06Um, being able to reach the an objective of affordable housing within a community. So, some things to think about there.

26:14Um, there's also additional options for rural housing that are are proposed in in the language here.

26:23So, 2 relatively big things in terms of proposed changes here are settlement area boundary expansions. So, initially.

26:34Every 5 years 5 to 10 years.

26:38The law itself would embark on what's called a municipal comprehensive review and it was only during that time in which you could look at expanding boundaries. And it is only you could only expand boundaries, if you provide a justification through that land needs assessment that I talked about earlier.

26:57So, the requirements for that have now the requirements for a need for a municipal comprehensive review have been removed from the proposed pps and the requirements for the needs test or the justification to expand boundaries has also been removed in the proposed pps.

27:21So, you wouldn't necessarily have to justify why a boundary needs to be expanded and wouldn't necessarily need to look at whether there was sufficient capacity and infrastructure or public service facilities to support an expansion.

27:39And also not necessarily need to look at whether impacts are minimizing impacts on agricultural land operations that wouldn't also potentially not need to be taken into consideration.

27:55In terms of employment areas.

27:58I'll just quickly go over these. There's been some revisions in terms of the definition of what an employment.

28:05Area is to prohibit any commercial uses that are not associated with the primary employment or institutional use. So, right now we have discretion.

28:17Over what types of uses could be included in an employment area.

28:21That discretion could potentially be removed.

28:25It's also the proposed pps enables conversions from employment to residential lands, for example, to happen more easily.

28:38So that's another another change that is being proposed. And also, I'm not caring for these what's called potentially significant employment so on so they just have an added layer of protection.

28:52To remain employment so.

28:56So, there are those key changes as well.

28:59And I'm not going to go over these too much and really what I just wanted to highlight on on this slide.

29:05Was that another bill it's called bill 97 was also released on the same day.

29:12As these proposed changes and what bill 97 does.

29:16In tandem with the proposed pps wording is.

29:21Provide some the minister with additional powers in terms of taking on a more direct and involved role in the planning process. So, potentially being able to intervene in certain planning functions. For example.

29:35What it also does is in the current pps language.

29:41It says that the policies in the pps are minimum standards for policy and municipalities.

29:48In some cases can have a higher level of standards for policies for protection, for example.

29:56In the proposed pps there are some areas where that is would no longer be allowed. And it would be whatever is in the proposed pps is is is.

30:07The climate change direction is also considered.

30:13Oh, you know what and so there's also the changes to there's some changes to climate to the climate change direction.

30:22In the proposed pps as well so currently in the growth plan.

30:26It requires municipalities to address climate change by implementing actions that work towards.

30:34Reducing automobile dependence on automobiles while at the same time supporting existing and plans transit and active transportation.

30:43So that's what's currently in the growth plan. It's also requires municipalities to recognize the importance of water shed planning on the protection of both quality and quantity of water.

30:55It requires municipalities to look at the relationship between local food food security and the protection of the agricultural land base.

31:06It also encourage the growth plan also encourages municipalities to develop strategies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, as well as.

31:17Encourage municipalities to have targets interim and and long term targets regarding greenhouse gas reductions.

31:26So, the proposed pps or the proposed policy state planning statement.

31:32It still carries forward some of the language to do with climate change.

31:37But the language has been.

31:40We can somewhat and now lacks sort of the the the regulatory language and it's a bit more prescriptive.

31:48So it no longer encourages.

31:52It removes the direction to reduce dependence on the automobile.

31:56And it also no longer encourages municipalities to develop greenhouse gas inventories or targets regarding greenhouse gas.

32:05Reduction. So, if we think in the well of context we have raised to zero or net zero or many municipalities have.

32:16Declare a climate emergency. A lot of those things like greenhouse gas reduction targets are standard in municipalities now we do do them, but without.

32:25Provincial guidance and direction that might make it a bit more challenging to continue to do that.

32:30And then the final change that I'll that I'll talk about and I know this is a lot.

32:36Is the current policy under the growth plan.

32:42And when you plan for growth, you typically have to do master plans that go along with it. So you align your growth with your master plans to see if you have the right infrastructure and the right location at the right time to accommodate growth.

32:57And that's a requirement under the growth plan.

33:00So the proposed pps deletes this requirement.

33:05That municipal water and wastewater systems be constructed in accordance with a comprehensive water or wastewater master plan or the equivalent of that.

33:17Instead, it says that these systems would only need to consider comprehensive planning where applicable so it doesn't provide any more details other than and than that so.

33:27That's also something to consider from a community that is well based and groundwater dependent as well and.

33:35You know, I think we would still require master planning in order to accommodate the growth that's coming, but it's no longer put in provincial policy as as directions.

33:48So.

33:51The province has provided 6 discussion questions that as staff, we've talked about internally and come up with our thoughts that we in the response to the province that will be going as I mentioned at some point in May, but the questions.

34:10Can be a little difficult to answer, but then again, high level thoughts are also really great here.

34:17And so the 1st 1 is what are your thoughts on the policies that have been included?

34:23What are your thoughts on the proposed policies for fast large and fast growing municipalities?

34:29What are your thoughts regarding the proposed policies to generate housing supply?

34:35What are your thoughts on the proposed policies regarding the conservation of agriculture, aggregates natural and cultural heritage resources and I just wanted to flag.

34:43You haven't actually received the policy changes on natural heritage system, which they are currently being considered by the province and they'll be released at another time and will provide comments on those when we receive them.

35:00What are your thoughts on the proposed policies regarding planning for appointment and then are there any barriers or opportunities for accelerating development that we could put forward?

35:12As staff or as a community.

35:15So, I'm not sure how you would like to advance these. If you'd like to discuss these questions as a committee now or perhaps I'll throw it to the chair to see what he would you'd like to do.

35:34I'm happy to facilitate a discussion. I just, I'm not.

35:38Sure how the committee would like to work on this.

35:42Yeah, neither am I. There's a lot to digest there and they're they're pretty big questions very broad. I don't know if anybody we want to maybe open it up and see if anybody has any high level comments now.

35:55But it's something I'm sure we'd all like to digest and possibly send in our thoughts later in more detail, but definitely like let's open it up and see if anybody has anything to say now.

36:07I have a question.

36:14Um, with question number 1. Well, I guess a concern would be that there's less there would be less control with respect to expanding city boundaries.

36:29And there's a concern for, you know, the additional cost of infrastructure.

36:34So, like, if the controls are not provincial level, then who controls what can and can't be done within the city.

36:45So, if the control is dropped off provincially, then who manages how the city will expand.

36:54So, I think that yet. So the city would, but through these proposed policies.

37:06The province is expecting that the city would develop our own population and employment growth.

37:14Forecasts and targets and projections. And so it would be community and city council would would be ultimately the ones who would determine how, how, where and when growth would occur within the city of Guelph.

37:30So, there is a, you know, there's a potential implication in terms of it does provide a level of flexibility, increased level of flexibility and control for Guelph and other municipalities.

37:45However, there.

37:49So, in Ontario, it's nice to have the provincial guidance on population and employment growth in order to have sort of more comprehensive planning that's consistent and congruent across a larger geography.

38:06So, ultimately, it would still be it would still rest with the city of Guelph in terms of how, where and when growth would occur.

38:23Morgan.

38:25Thanks for that. So it's a lot to digest. But you did a great job of explaining it all. And I know you're really trying to digest it on your end too.

38:35I get a similar line of question, I guess, but in relation to affordable housing so, you know, can or will the city, you know, staff recommend council have the possibility to like, commit to setting its own definitions and targets

38:54around affordable housing and the absence of that provincial direction and then also, I guess, follow up. Is there a risk that that could somehow get overridden by the province, especially if there's kind of competing development proposals on the table?

39:14I think it's well, it's a good night for that question because the next part will be about the affordable housing strategy in which we can also get into a bit more discussion about what the city might want to consider doing in terms of

39:31having our own affordable, affordability definition, affordability targets for Guelph. So certainly there is that we're open to having that discussion as well. And I think that's probably a discussion that a lot of people would like to have within the community and

39:49in other municipalities as well.

39:53And I'll chat about it in the next presentation, but bring it up now. I think, as you may be aware through bill 23.

40:00there has been a potential change and that even it's been removed potentially from this proposed policy direction, but also a change in definition for what affordable means through bill 23 that could have significant implications for.

40:17The type of affordable housing that's built within our community. So I think there's a lot changing right now and we're at a great time to have discussions about what the city of wealth would like to do in terms of affordable housing moving forward.

40:32So, in some cases, we're at a, in a holding pattern for what the province is.

40:40Going to provide or what direction they're going to give and in other cases, I think we still, we still have a lot of control and flexibility over.

40:49How we'd like to guide affordable housing within our community.

40:53There that I see, put your hand up or.

41:05Yeah, thanks Paul. Thanks, a couple questions and to start, sorry if you went over this, but.

41:16So, if boundary expansions are not to be done through municipal or sorry, a municipal comprehensive review is no longer required for a boundary expansion.

41:29Or conversion of employment land is no longer.

41:34Requiring a municipal comprehensive review. What are the conditions.

41:40For either 1 of those so they could be advanced it brought forward at any time. So, under current conditions, it would be a municipal initiated would be the.

41:52Expansions or during a municipal comprehensive review, as you mentioned under the proposed.

41:59We could be in a cycle of reviewing requests for expansion or conversion.

42:06On a continuous basis is the idea that.

42:12Conditions or requirements or.

42:16I guess, criteria for a conversion, would it be the same or.

42:21Are those intended to change as well? Yeah, they have been relaxed is probably how I would characterize.

42:29Um, it to meet the overall provincial objective of ensuring that there is.

42:37Land available for residential development so.

42:42That that's the overall objective of it. See, it seems upon reading that proposed planning statement is.

42:51Is is why some of the.

42:54Needs tests have been relaxed is in order to make land available and in wealth case, I think.

43:01Through the work that was done on the growth management strategy and has been incorporated into the official plan through a minute. I think it was shown that there's actually.

43:12Well, has quite a significant supply of land that's available for residential development and quite a good ability to have.

43:22You know, the capacity to to meet the current targets.

43:26Um, population and employment targets that have been that are still in place from the province. So.

43:33From our perspective, I think we have a lot of land available, but.

43:40But perhaps that's not necessarily other.

43:44I think so, I suppose it has to be in the right place.

43:51Or marketable, I guess, to use a.

43:55General term, so, so it's it's good to hear that there's.

44:02Uh, movement toward kind of restricting commercial uses.

44:06In employment lands that are connected to primary employment or primary industrial uses.

44:12Um, seems like we're going into directions though. So we're removing commercial uses from.

44:19You know, employment areas, but then we're also making it easier to convert employment lands to residential uses. So.

44:27Kind of going in a couple of opposite directions there.

44:30It's not really a question more statement, I guess.

44:34I'll hold for now in case other people have other comments.

44:48Lisa.

44:52I guess I'm also in a sort of holding pattern because I'm, I'm.

44:56Really concerned about the protections for natural and cultural heritage resources. Um.

45:02And, and I'm also concerned about the.

45:08Less stringent approach to claim taking.

45:13Climate action in terms of the.

45:16Reporting process, which I actually personally think it isn't stringent enough at this point and we're not doing enough quickly enough.

45:25Um, and it's, it's a concern that worries me every day.

45:29Question.

45:41Yeah, go ahead.

45:43Are similar sized municipalities going to.

45:48Um, are they planning to talk about this together and maybe present a.

45:56Letter from, you know, like the best ideas or recommendations or what they don't like about all of this.

46:05Uh, as, as a group or like wealth.

46:09We're responsible to prepare our own response and it goes directly to, to the province.

46:16There has to be similar concerns, advantages and disadvantages to similar sized municipalities.

46:24Um, yeah, typically in cases like this, when there's a posting on the environmental registry, most municipalities will sort of get their act together.

46:34Uh, in the type timeline that's available and get comments in on the proposed legislation or policy or regular whatever it is.

46:44Um, and then there are, um, so some, some of those are starting to come through. I know a couple have.

46:52Provided a couple municipalities have provided some comments on it already through their.

46:56Um, information reports to council.

46:59Um, and then there are other sort of.

47:02Like the, um, AIMO, um, association municipalities of Ontario might provide comments on this.

47:12Um, there's a regional planning commissioners of Ontario have also, so yeah, there are.

47:19There are groups that do get together and provide sort of a united, um, response.

47:25Um, to these pieces of legislation that are coming forward.

47:28Um, Morgan, you had another comment.

47:35Yeah, just to follow on, I guess Lisa's point about, um.

47:40The climate change related policies.

47:44Coach, you mentioned that, um.

47:46It's going to be more challenging to implement.

47:50Climate change objectives without provincial guidance. Can you maybe just expand on why that is? Why is the provincial guidance so.

47:59Important here from your perspective.

48:01Um, well, I think.

48:06Historic, and this is my my experience in terms of writing, um.

48:14Sort of local policy and planning and documents and official plans.

48:18You know, when we 1st were writing them.

48:21In 2006, um, sort of before the growth plan, it was a, an X, you know, you maybe see climate change as a term as a concept once.

48:33In an entire official plan. Um, and then when it started to become a requirement, free municipalities through the growth plan and through the pbs through visions to those.

48:45Um, it really provided that, um.

48:48Direction and guidance that municipalities need to needed to come together to have more consistent.

48:55Um, thought on what was necessary in order to work together.

48:59To advance climate change mitigation. So, from that perspective.

49:04Um, that provincial guidance and direction in a variety.

49:08Of documents really helped ignite the conversation around climate mitigation and climate action and adaptation. So.

49:19Um, so from my experience, it really was when, when the province stepped in and stepped up in terms of climate.

49:31Climate change and now, as I mentioned, it is more standard practice in a lot of municipalities that they, they have targets and.

49:40Climate action plans and climate action departments, even within municipalities. So we've seen a lot of change. Um, because of wording and guidance that was put in through provincial policy.

49:53And in my opinion.

49:54But so now that we're at that point, though, it's are you worried? Is there anything in these changes that would negate any of that?

50:03Well, I'm a little concerned.

50:08With seeing some of the removal of the language regarding.

50:14Not having targets for greenhouse gas reductions regarding not necessarily.

50:20Um, recognizing the importance of maintaining the agricultural land base, for example, as a.

50:29To help with climate change and mitigation.

50:33Little concerned with the, the, the weakening of the language, I guess.

50:39So, I definitely understand where the province is coming from in terms of housing supply.

50:45Um, but I think there's a, there's a couple of ways to come at the provincial policy statement that we may be able to sort of keep some of the language on.

50:57And climate change while still being able to meet our objectives for for housing supply.

51:10Are any other comments or questions?

51:16Yeah, I'll say something.

51:18Um, just looking at the.

51:23The changes to settlements area boundary expansions.

51:28Similar to what you mentioned, with the removal of.

51:36The need for municipal comprehensive review and a time period for it.

51:41That could leave us in a state of constant.

51:45Review kind of and that.

51:48I just, I wonder how will the city have resources to.

51:52Maintain a constant state of review.

51:55Um, while maintaining all of the other planning efforts that are.

51:59That go on in between and during all of that going on.

52:04Um, and yeah, how will we maintain our own strategies as.

52:11The requirements for boundary expansions are loosened and I know in other legislation.

52:19Including private landowners can now apply or begin the process of boundary expansions.

52:25It's how can the, how can the city maintain control and have the resources to do so.

52:32Without any provincial policies to help.

52:37Guide that well at this point, I think that's 1 of our comments back to the.

52:47In our response to the provinces.

52:51We appreciate the intent to have more flexibility and control over certain aspects like population and employment targets.

53:00But it would be.

53:02It would still be helpful to have a guidance provincial guidance on.

53:08On population and employment forecasts as well as.

53:13A bit more guidance on.

53:18Stronger tests for expansions. So.

53:23Yeah, at this point, I completely hear what you're saying and you're saying and I think some of the comments that we have.

53:30Drafted in a report reflect.

53:34A concern over capacity at the city.

53:39And regarding a potential.

53:42Consent cycle of review.

53:55Okay, thank you.

53:57Are did you you're you're presenting the next 1 as well, I believe right?

54:02I am.

54:03All right, I'm sorry everybody.

54:06No, this is good. And we're jumping into the affordable housing, which actually I'm very interested in.

54:10So, the update to the 2017 affordable housing strategy.

54:14Mr. Chair, before we move on to affordable housing strategy, there were a couple of motions for the committee 1 was receipt of.

54:22Of the presentation and the 2nd 1 that the comments.

54:27As well to it was on your agenda. Okay, so I have to do 1 of those for each.

54:31As opposed to 1 at the end.

54:34Yes, for each item.

54:36Okay.

54:37So, yeah, but for a motion that we have received the presentation and that we are going to.

54:47Provide staff and council.

54:52Our comments for consideration.

54:57I see Darren.

54:58I have a I'll move it, but I have a question for.

55:03Um, Coach, you mentioned some really.

55:07Condensed timelines and again, apologies if you mentioned this off the top.

55:12When do you need to get back to the province and.

55:19I guess, where are the next steps from here? So you're currently playing together the city's response.

55:27The consultation period ends.

55:29I imagine what in the next couple of weeks probably.

55:33Yep, so if you can just.

55:36Give a little bit of context for where we go from like this meeting today.

55:42Sure, so, so the comments are due June 5th to the province. We.

55:49We anticipate having an information report go before the end of the month.

55:57So, we would be able to include any comments that we through discussion that we heard today.

56:06In sort of a summary include that in this in the staff information report.

56:12And if.

56:15I can double check on that I might need to I'll say something and I might need to double check on it and get back to.

56:22The chair at a tomorrow potentially, but.

56:27I think there's also an opportunity as as members of the public as well, just to support or to submit your own comments as well. Your own thoughts through through the year posting.

56:39Okay, thank you several ways to get comments.

56:44Okay, all of the motion. Alright, can I get a second?

56:49Seconder Arden.

56:52Thank you. Okay. And then yeah, Kishlo whenever you're ready.

57:02Just the opposed people chair.

57:04I'll be opposed people. I'm so new at this. Yes. Did anybody oppose?

57:11Thank you there.

57:14Thanks for keeping me in check. It'll probably take me a couple of meetings to get this.

57:18Doing great Paul. Thanks.

57:21Let's try this again. Sorry if it.

57:28Okay.

57:32I'm beginning. Okay. We're we're good here.

57:38Okay, great.

57:41Thank you.

57:43Okay, so.

57:47Yeah, I think these 2 presentations compliment each other actually tonight. So that's great.

57:52This is just another about 50 minutes. Just to go over the affordable updates. The affordable housing strategy and really at this point, I don't have a lot of.

58:04Detail to provide in terms of data and all that kind of thing, because we really sort of are at a.

58:09It says project initiation there, but it's really sort of more of a pre project initiation.

58:14There have been some timeline changes a little bit in the past 2 weeks or so.

58:20So, right now, I just wanted to give you guys a flavor of what has happened and what we're what we're thinking of doing. And again, this.

58:30Strategy this update is really as I hope will come through this presentation. We really want to make it a much more collaborative.

58:39Effort than in 2017, given sort of the conversations that have been happening in the past.

58:47Since 2017 regarding housing and affordable housing.

58:52So, the purpose of the strategy in general.

58:57Excuse me is to assist the city and identifying actions and.

59:01Um, opportunities for advocacy and engagement approaches to address.

59:06The gaps in the private market.

59:08Housing in short, medium, in the short, medium and long term, and I'll get to why I sort of.

59:14Highlighted the private market end of things in a minute.

59:18And as I mentioned right off the top of the presentation, we really do want to enhance that collaborative effort with.

59:24Well, in county, who is the service provider for a lot of the.

59:27Non market housing, the University of Guelph.

59:32The Conestote college, as you might have heard in the news recently, they are coming to downtown and are looking to have.

59:40Quite a number of students that will need homes that are housing when they attend nonprofit agencies, the development community and the community at large. So.

59:50Just to give you a bit of background on the 2017 affordable housing strategy that had about.

59:57I'll say 8 years of work that that went into coming up with that affordable housing strategy with several pieces of.

1:00:06With several documents and what that, what that strategy did was it provided a framework for planning for a range of mix.

1:00:15And mix of housing types and densities. It also focused on again, identifying policy drivers and tools and learning the responsibilities to meet the city's targets for affordable rental and home ownership.

1:00:29But as, as, as we know, with a lot of the recent legislative changes through.

1:00:36More homes for everyone act, the more homes built faster act and the better municipal government governance act.

1:00:43It's really precipitated a need for an update to how we approach affordable housing across the province across Canada and specifically within our community.

1:00:59So, for those who don't talk housing terms a lot, I just wanted to sort of highlight.

1:01:071 term that is used frequently is called it's called the housing continuum. And so if we start on the left hand side of the screen here and go move towards the right.

1:01:16It starts with the homelessness end of things or the rough housing.

1:01:22Moving into emergency shelter, transitional housing, supportive housing and community housing.

1:01:29And so those are, are known as non market housing and that's typically the primary responsibility of Wellington County. There are service providers. So they're responsible mostly for the service and delivery of housing within that part of the housing continuum.

1:01:46And then we move into the right hand side of the screen, which is market.

1:01:51Private market housing and that's primarily facilitated by the city of Guelph and that includes affordable housing.

1:01:58And I will get to the definition of that in a minute as well as market housing. So, so that is the housing continuum as, as, as when we talk about that.

1:02:11In terms of the roles and responsibilities, it's, it's tough to get everyone sort of understanding what the city does, what Wellington County does, what nonprofits do.

1:02:24And it can cause a, you know, quite a bit of frustration and I completely understand why.

1:02:30Because we are working with a, and a lot of defined parameters that are provided by the province or the federal government. But in terms of the city.

1:02:40What we're responsible for is mainly the facilitation of the creation of housing supply and sometimes the affordable housing with Wellington County.

1:02:52So we are responsible primarily for private market housing. So that's essentially, as I mentioned in the housing continuum, if you're looking to buy a house, it's the kinds you might see on MLS or you go to a realtor, that kind of thing developer for private market rental as well.

1:03:09Where we do have considerable amount of regulatory authority is over land use. So in terms of zoning and Abby.

1:03:17I spent a considerable amount of her time in the past couple of years updating the city's comprehensive zoning bylaws. So we, we've, we've sort of.

1:03:30Gosh, Abby, when was it last? When was the zoning bylaw last updated?

1:03:36So the bylaw was 1995.

1:03:40Right, so long time ago. So we've brought that up to date in terms of some of the conversations that we've been having around housing and uses and wealth.

1:03:50And in terms of what uses can go where and we also have a regulatory authority over building standards. So again, looking at density permissions and the types of housing and.

1:04:03What types of housing can go where as well in terms of Wellington County, as mentioned, they're more the service and delivery on that left hand side of the housing continuum. So the non market and that represents about 4% of the housing supply of the city's housing supply.

1:04:22And so they work a lot in partnership with cooperative, non profit and indigenous.

1:04:29Community housing providers to create more deeply affordable housing. So housing that.

1:04:35Doesn't fall within the DPS's definition of 30% of income pre tax. So I'll get into that in a minute.

1:04:44But the city also supports the county and performing some of these administrative duties and through some financial support as well as some funding. So.

1:04:52That's just to give you a bit of a flavor in terms of roles and responsibilities.

1:04:57In terms of that definition, we got into a little bit in the previous presentation.

1:05:04Because the current PPS is still in force and effect, we do. We have used that definition, which for ownership would be that your purchase price does not exceed 30% of your gross.

1:05:16Annual household income for low and moderate income households.

1:05:20There's also another part here about that the purchase price is at least 10% below the average purchase price of a resale unit. So.

1:05:28It can get kind of complicated in terms of what it is, but essentially it's 30% of your gross annual income.

1:05:34Rental housing is similar. It's the least expensive for rent that does not exceed your 30%.

1:05:42Or rents, which is set at or below average market rates for again, for low and moderate income households.

1:05:50As mentioned through bill 23 and the development charges act, there may be work. The province is signaling a change.

1:05:57In what may be the definition of affordable, maybe.

1:06:03And the change would be that the price of a unit is no greater than 80% of the average purchase price.

1:06:10And for rental, it would be a similar similar definition.

1:06:14So, I, I tend to think this is how I take an information. And I don't know if it would be helpful for other people, but.

1:06:24Just in order to give a bit of a to see what the change in definition may mean.

1:06:31Well, recently or last week released the growth management report and talked about affordability thresholds.

1:06:38So, if we're talking about affordable housing in Guelph right now, if you can see my cursor.

1:06:45Right now, an affordable house.

1:06:47Price would be the max would be 387,000, about $388,000.

1:06:54And that would correlate with a household income of about $111,000. So that low to moderate would.

1:07:00Max is out at 60%, the 60th income, desile.

1:07:06So that's under the current.

1:07:08PPS definition that 30% under the new.

1:07:14Potential definition that we've heard about this would be where what would be considered affordable.

1:07:21And it would be at about $662,000 would be considered affordable.

1:07:27Or at an income range of about.

1:07:31180 or so, so you can see the difference in the definition of going from an income based definition.

1:07:41To going to a market based definition has has some significant implications.

1:07:50Again, I don't have a similar comparison for rental just because it's a slightly different way of doing things. But in terms of where we're at now within affordable and in affordable.

1:08:00Racial for rental, it would be looking at about $1434 or an income at between $44,000 and $53,000 a year.

1:08:15So, in terms of the project goals that we are advancing through this update, what we'd like to do is update sort of the state of the housing report in wealth.

1:08:26So essentially what that means is we just want to make sure that we know how much housing we have.

1:08:31The affordability levels and more specifically and more importantly, where are our housing affordability gaps within the city.

1:08:39And then being able to draw connections between affordability and household incomes so that we can better understand how the proposed approaches through policy drivers and incentives, for example.

1:08:52We'd also like to review and update the directions report. So again, that's sort of the policy directions that we may take through an affordable housing strategy directions on potentially targets that we may want to use and incorporate into this.

1:09:07As well as review and update the 2016 strategic actions. So again, what are some of the strategic actions we can take in terms of monitoring as well that could help us.

1:09:19Reach goals for affordable private market housing as well as rental and rental and in ownership.

1:09:29So again, I just wanted to really focus on the fact that these update will focus on enhancing collaboration with Wellington County.

1:09:38The community and the development industry in particular to advancing these items.

1:09:44And we haven't, while we know the 1st part of the work is sort of that information gathering and gathering that baseline in terms of the state of housing and wealth and what those gaps are.

1:09:54The 2nd part of the affordable housing strategy is really open to ideas at this point and community led ideas in terms of what they would you, what council would like to see in a housing strategy that we can do within the previous.

1:10:13Of provincial policy and direction. So some of those ideas could be exploring existing homeowners interest in the creation of additional residential units. How can we, how can we facilitate that? How can we make it easier for smaller developers? For example.

1:10:29To come and and build within the city. What do they need to streamline the process and make it easier.

1:10:37Another idea could be visualizing other options of housing types in the missing middle. So that would be sort of the 4 to 6 or missing level, gentle density type stuff.

1:10:49Not not to high rise essentially and that is cognizant of existing wealth neighborhoods and its characters.

1:10:58And then finally, another example or idea and again, these are just ideas.

1:11:02Could be examining the feasibility of staff led site and building designs that could assist in increasing the housing supply in the city. So again, just throwing out ideas, but definitely we're not married to them. But just wanted to sort of get.

1:11:17The wheels rolling in terms of what we what we could start to look at through the 2nd phase of the affordable housing strategy.

1:11:25So right now what we're working towards is we will going in September with this project initiation and by that point hopefully we'll have a bit more of a fleshed out idea in terms of engagement strategy. Who should we talk to? How should we talk to people? What should we be talking to them about?

1:11:42Information gathering and research as well will be our primary focus for this until the end of this year again, just to get that that gap analysis done.

1:11:51Phase 3 will be identifying the goals and targets. What are our goals and our targets in the in the city of wealth in terms of affordable housing?

1:12:02Focusing primarily on private market, but also really bringing in the story on non-market housing as well.

1:12:11Identifying actions. What are the most current actions? What are some policy stands? What are some areas that are doing some really innovative creative things?

1:12:21That perhaps wealth would like to to do as well.

1:12:25And finally, that would all then go into the final affordable housing strategy, which we anticipate being completed by the end of.

1:12:332024 so that then brings me to and again, there's other this this is again, I just we just wanted to bring this to you guys.

1:12:46Today to give you an idea of what's coming up because we know that affordable housing is a really, you know, there's a.

1:12:55It's an incredibly important topic that we need to wrap our hands around more and it is really under the microscope lately. And so we wanted to bring this forward to you and provided some discussion questions here as well. But.

1:13:12If you'd like to go over today, that would be great or get back to me at the later date that would be good to.

1:13:21Thank you.

1:13:22Let's see.

1:13:22See, thank you.

1:13:23I see Lisa has her hand up.

1:13:25She's already got a question.

1:13:28Just on the previous slide, I think there's a typo for task number 3.

1:13:36In 2024.

1:13:40Yeah, thank you.

1:13:41Yes, there is.

1:13:42That's right.

1:13:42Thank you.

1:13:43I guess that the 1 of the 1st questions I had in earlier slides was the 4% supply of non market housing.

1:13:56And in my experience, looking.

1:14:01Looking at housing just generally, what's the actual percentage that this this needs to be.

1:14:12At because I don't think it's adequate right now. Like, if you talk to anyone who's running a shelter or.

1:14:21Doing any work housing insecure people.

1:14:25Yeah, no, so that would be part of the work sort of that information research and information gathering that we're hoping to do by the end of this year.

1:14:38We just have more a better picture of what that need is what the core need is for the city of wealth and working more closely with our.

1:14:48Colleagues at Wellington County.

1:14:51Yeah, because I'm looking at that number and it seems seems quite low.

1:14:56When you consider the income distribution.

1:15:02Of the population, like.

1:15:05There's more than 4% of the people below that affordable housing style.

1:15:13Yeah, and so yeah, that's exactly right. So we, I think we, since 2017 a lot has potentially changed and.

1:15:21And we'd like to get a much better picture of.

1:15:25Of what's happening out there and I guess my last question is.

1:15:35Is and I, I work.

1:15:41For occasionally for developers doing site plan approvals for.

1:15:46For housing and 1 of the things that.

1:15:51I feel as a landscape architect in these situations is I still don't understand.

1:15:59How the private housing market.

1:16:06Can be both private and profitable.

1:16:11And affordable I think that that we have to decouple.

1:16:17Housing basic housing.

1:16:21From a market based system.

1:16:25To to a basic human right and that a certain level.

1:16:31Everyone should have access.

1:16:34To some sort of housing at a base level.

1:16:42Because if you look at the numbers, the wages.

1:16:48It's a long, you know, there's quite a few people that are not housed.

1:16:55With a full time minimum wage.

1:16:58Job on a single income.

1:17:05I think yeah, you've got a great point there and I think in terms of I think.

1:17:12Speaking about a deeply, deeply affordable housing, I think it's sort of.

1:17:17Perhaps what you're speaking to yeah, but it's.

1:17:23It is I guess I just would like.

1:17:28To understand why we continue to think that the private housing market.

1:17:34Which has a component of profit profit.

1:17:38How that also yields affordability.

1:17:42I think I think that's a great question.

1:17:49That I think will come up.

1:17:54Yeah, when we go out for engagement as well.

1:17:59Yeah, I do I do find it pretty shocking that the their new definition is tied to.

1:18:07Market price because market price only considers people who are.

1:18:12Who can afford to buy a house at market price so it's only considering the top earners in its spacing.

1:18:18What's affordable off of it 80% of that.

1:18:22Where's affordable housing should be considering.

1:18:25Are the local living wage or local wages and it should be completely income based so.

1:18:33Seems like that is slanting it kind of more towards the for profit side.

1:18:38And kind of enticing builders to be able to still profit off of what they're calling is affordable.

1:18:44As affordable housing right so I agree with Lisa definitely should be.

1:18:50Separated from the kind of for profit sector.

1:19:00Anybody else have any questions or comments.

1:19:05I'm Ria. Yeah, I think if the city is looking to have smaller developments.

1:19:14Built up to say, you know, 15 units and smaller.

1:19:21And make them be affordable. Then the only way someone in the private sector would consider that.

1:19:31Is if there would be some incentive provided to the builder.

1:19:36Whether it be reducing development charges or.

1:19:43I don't know adjusting the property taxes or or something.

1:19:49Because the cost of building a very small building.

1:19:56Is a lot higher proportionately then.

1:20:00these big high-rise buildings that are being built. The soft costs of building a building,

1:20:07the cost is the same whether you have a building with six units or whether you have a building

1:20:12with 60 units. So I think if there are no financial incentives, the private sector isn't going to be

1:20:21interested because they're not in it for charity, you know, like they have their expenses as well

1:20:27and it just won't work. The numbers don't work. So the city has to be like there has to be flexibility

1:20:34and we have to think outside the box if we want these small developments to happen.

1:20:40And maybe the city needs to create some guidelines as to how can a small builder

1:20:50build something and make the units affordable. Like help people understand what incentives there are,

1:20:58like what are the incentives with the city of Guelph and lay it out in a book, a guideline,

1:21:09to say, you know, how the city can help a small owner build a little building and create

1:21:18affordable housing. Maybe it's just the people don't know what's available and

1:21:26they just can't do it themselves and then it just doesn't work, right?

1:21:37Yeah, no, I think that's a great idea and I certainly think it's on the radar in terms of some of the

1:21:42ideas that we can advance in the second phase of that is because as we know, I think we

1:21:51have some of the policies that have come through from the province are putting more recognition

1:21:58on the fact that it might, it will be smaller builders that will need to provide some of the

1:22:02housing that's necessary, some of the housing supply that's necessary. So how can we as a city

1:22:09help facilitate that type of development in the easiest way possible? So, yes, I can definitely

1:22:17see that as an idea that we can start to consider.

1:22:25Darren. Thanks Paul. Yeah, I think that's a really important point. I think this exercise can

1:22:40be a little bit of motivation to finding those small developers. There's no, like,

1:22:45group of them, like they don't have a sector where they all organize and, you know,

1:22:49they're all getting together and coordinating on what their feedback is going to be. So

1:22:57I think this is a good exercise to finding those small scale developers that are putting out

1:23:03the small buildings or trying to put up the small buildings that Maria is talking about

1:23:09and at least knowing who they are and hearing from them on what they need. Yeah,

1:23:14financial incentives could be big. There's obviously limits to what can be done, but

1:23:23just even having a good idea of the small developers that you're trying to engage

1:23:31I think would be good. But on the last point about considerations for project scope,

1:23:38I went back to the project summary slide and I think a really important point of that

1:23:45is about visualizing the other options of housing types that can fit. But there's a point that I

1:23:53don't want to get too stuck on. You know, it says cognizant of existing Guelph neighborhoods

1:24:02and its character. So yeah, but also no for this exercise, right? Like don't be afraid to be

1:24:13a little bolder than, you know, I think you did a good job of that in the zoning by-law

1:24:21and illustrating, you know, what three units on a property looks like or what four units on a

1:24:26property could look like. I think I saw some concepts at one point showing what four units

1:24:32could look like. But I think if I can make a suggestion, use this exercise to be a little

1:24:38bit bolder and don't be constrained by what you think the neighborhood is going to be okay with.

1:24:50That actually is great. And we were, I think Abby and I were having discussions

1:24:59yesterday on the mayor has indicated that by the end of 20, and Abby correct me if I'm wrong,

1:25:08by the end of 2024, we'd like potentially for this project to dovetail with a direction from the

1:25:13mayor, which is to look at four plus units and do a study on four plus units in the city of Guelph

1:25:22and that probably fits best within this affordable housing strategy in terms of

1:25:30yeah, looking at four and more and what could be accommodated in certain parts of Guelph,

1:25:37for example. And there's been some really interesting work, you know, out of places like Vancouver

1:25:44and Victoria, but more locally, Kitchener has done recently done, their study was enabling

1:25:54missing middle and affordable housing. And in there, they've also had some really great

1:25:59demonstration, like visual demonstrations of more than four units on parcels of land

1:26:07within their city. So I think we'd like to try and do something similar through this project and see

1:26:13what's possible. They've also done some 3D modeling of their downtown and their core

1:26:21neighborhoods and that sort of thing. So visualizing things could become a really important tool

1:26:28for this type of work. Thank you. Morgan. Yeah, thanks. I appreciate you calling that out,

1:26:39Darren, just the word character in there. I mean, as I'm sure you're well aware,

1:26:44because of that word is quite open to definition and can be weaponized. So just I think a caution

1:26:51there. But I think just to follow on that and your questions around community and stakeholder

1:26:57engagement on this, I think to build off what Lisa was saying is, you know, if we consider

1:27:06housing as we should a human right, you know, community engagement is often these processes

1:27:15that you bring people together and talk about trade offs and while we can do more of this,

1:27:20but we'll have to do less of this. But just to some caution around the community engagement

1:27:27side of it or who's at the table there, because should we really be having

1:27:31trade off conversations about somebody's human right that that should be a baseline

1:27:37that our community provides if it is actually a human right. So there's an unmet need, an

1:27:44obvious unmet need in this community that in my view shouldn't be open to discussion. That need

1:27:52needs to be met. So there might be, you know, there's ways to do it and there's community

1:27:56engagement there, but just to scope your engagement carefully and who's at the table and who holds

1:28:02power at that table. Because, yeah, we shouldn't be trading off people's rights. It's maybe more

1:28:11building this sense of responsibility that we all have to ensure that there's

1:28:18fair and affordable housing for everyone. So because I think community stakeholder

1:28:24engagement processes can really derail this sort of thing. So I'm a big supporter of community

1:28:31engagement obviously, but I think just a caution about how those conversations are held and how

1:28:37open you're making the options and trade offs that are on the table. Thank you.

1:28:53Does anybody else have any questions or comments? Lisa? There's some very good points being raised

1:29:04and I guess one of the things that I also wonder about in looking at what is currently

1:29:14available and actually occurring is, are there any examples of these small scale

1:29:21near affordable housing projects even within the city? Like the co-housing project

1:29:30that's just on Lawn Street, I believe the buy-in was at $600,000. The price of those units is

1:29:42really, really expensive. I might have the dollar wrong, but it was comparable to a condominium.

1:29:52And I guess it'd be interesting to see about the other co-housing project out on Speedvale,

1:30:00whether it's a little bit larger and not having to go through an appeals process for zoning.

1:30:08Maybe those units are cheaper. I just wonder, I guess the really low-hanging fruit is just

1:30:19all the single-family homes that for a relatively modest amount could have a very livable second

1:30:28unit and put in them because in a previous census it indicated that the number of

1:30:38independent, one person households was extremely high in the city of Guelph. And I wonder if

1:30:46one of the mechanisms would be similar to the energy retrofit financing program that there

1:30:54couldn't be a funding mechanism that the city could backstop that would help

1:31:05individual homeowners create that affordable housing. Although, you know, the house right next

1:31:12door to me is just rented out the basement suite for $1,900 a month plus utilities.

1:31:28Yeah, these are all great ideas. I think that we'd like to sort of,

1:31:36sort of in the fall and beyond really get a long list of ideas that we could

1:31:46have more discussions on and that might be, and then shortlist the ones after

1:31:52a lot of community engagement on those. So yeah, but you're right. It is,

1:31:59there's a lot of potential in existing homes and existing lots and how do we best unlock that

1:32:07potential down the road. Maria? In answer to or comment on the first question, are there other

1:32:20stakeholder groups that should be involved? I think some of those groups I'd suggest are realtors

1:32:30because they have clients that will purchase or they're aware of clients that will maybe interested.

1:32:39So the real estate board, the home builders association, bankers, mortgage brokers,

1:32:50owners or management companies of rental buildings, accountants, bankers, like those are all people

1:32:59in the private sector that may are familiar with the numbers and what it actually takes to make

1:33:10or create affordable housing. And maybe we should hold some working groups like,

1:33:16and I understand they have to be controlled, but allow people to talk through this discussion.

1:33:27So invite these people to a meeting and get feedback from them. And if there is a builder

1:33:36out there or someone that has built a small little building or has built an affordable

1:33:43building, it would be great to hear them speak at this meeting. Great, thank you.

1:34:01Are there any other comments or questions? Yeah, I think kind of going along that same line of

1:34:15stakeholder groups to engage, I'm just thinking as well, kind of more from the consumer end of

1:34:22things, beyond just the people providing the housing, making sure that you're engaging with

1:34:28people who are currently renting and understanding what the needs or what the desires for

1:34:39in rental housing would look like beyond just ownership. As well as I think you mentioned it,

1:34:47students, especially now as Conestoga College will be moving in as well.

1:34:52It will be really important. I think we all know that the student housing landscape does have a

1:34:59large effect on the housing landscape for the entire city. So understanding student housing needs,

1:35:10how those can be maybe more innovative. I'm sure there are more innovative ways of doing

1:35:16student housing than just using up single family homes or apartments. So that might be

1:35:24something as well to make sure that you engage. Not seeing any other hands. All right, I think that

1:35:45wraps up that presentation. Thank you very much, Kishla. I would like to call a motion that the

1:35:52Planning Advisory Committee did receive the presentation update to the 2017 affordable

1:35:59housing strategy and that we will provide staff and council our comments for consideration.

1:36:10I get something to Maria's move and Lisa's second. Thank you. Is anybody opposed? I got it right that

1:36:21time. Nobody opposes? Excellent. I guess were there any other staff announcements or was that

1:36:32completely covered at the beginning? Yeah, we covered that already. Okay, awesome. Do we have a

1:36:41next meeting set yet? No, we don't. Usually I think Melissa says that that information and gets it.

1:36:53Okay, so we'll just kind of keep an eye on the inbox. Yeah. Okay, I think that wraps the meeting

1:37:01then. I guess I'll move to or I'll call a motion to adjourn. Could I get someone to move? Darren

1:37:11and second? Morgan. Excellent. Thank you, everybody. See you next time. Good night.

1:37:22Thanks, everyone. It was nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Have a nice evening.