Business Licence Appeals Committee

11:20Good evening members of the committee. It is 5 p.m. And as per section 4.7.5 of the procedural by-law

11:27I'm calling the meeting to order

11:30First item on the agenda

11:33Item 1.1 disclosure pecuniary interest

11:38Not seeing anyone

11:40I'll move to item 2 election of the chair and I'll pass it over to the committee for a recommendation

11:47Councillor Downer. Yes, I would

11:50Recommend that Linda Bousatile be constantly

11:53Bousatile be appointed as chair of the business license appeals committee for a term ending November 2026

11:59Rantella successor is appointed

12:02Thank you, and do we have a seconder?

12:06Councillor Chew and

12:09Call the

12:12Vote is there anyone against that has carried

12:19Councillor Bousatile chair Bousatile

12:22Thank you. Okay. Thank you, and I believe just checking in with clerks that Councillor Richardson is on her way

13:06Just running a little bit late. So

13:08We're going to proceed with the business license orientation

13:13Matthew Irish legal counsel as the chair mentioned my name is Matthew Irish

13:24I'm one of the cities and house lawyers my role at this hearing is to provide a legal support to you the committee

13:30On this business licensing appeal before we get into the particulars of the the hearing today. I have a brief orientation

13:38Just to give some background to the committee members

13:41So the procedure for the hearing is studied by legislation

13:46You can see on the slide the full names of the legislation I'll be referring to but this is the business licensing by-law

13:52We've also got the statutory powers and procedures by-law which I'm sure you're all familiar with and the city's procedural by-law

13:59For the purposes of this hearing

14:01The appeals committee will be acting as a tribunal and exercising a quasi judicial power

14:07And that's similar to other committees that have been held on other other matters in the past

14:15Section one of the statutory powers and procedures act provides the authority for this committee

14:20To make a decision with respect to business licenses

14:24in this appeal

14:26and

14:30Further section 17 of that same act the SPPA

14:33Provides that the appeal committee has the authority to issue a final decision in this matter

14:38And that that reasons for this decision be given in writing

14:42With respect to the business licensing by-law the most relevant portion to this hearing is likely section 28

14:52Which sets out the nine circumstances when the issuer of licenses may refuse to issue a license

14:59paraphrasing these are when

15:01inspections have not been passed

15:03The conduct of the licensee provides a reasonable cause to believe they will not carry on or engage in the business in accordance with law

15:10Or with honesty and integrity

15:13If the issuance of the license would be contrary to the health safety or well-being of the people of the city of the city of Guelph

15:21If the licensee has passed convictions under this by-law or any other by-law statute or regulation relating to the business

15:28Where the licensee is carrying on an activity in relation to the business that would be in

15:33Controvenation of this by-law or any other by-law statute or regulation

15:37Where the business does not comply with applicable legislation

15:41Including but not limited to the building code fire protection and prevention act the health protection and promotion act and the property standards by-law

15:51Another another reason for the refusal is where there is a court order or any federal or provincial order

15:57Seizing the activity of the business where the business has ceased to operate or

16:02Upon other grounds set out in the by-law

16:08Section 35 of the business licensing by-law sets of the general hearing procedure once an appeal has been commenced

16:14This has occurred in the hearing that we'll be listening to today

16:18To summarize this the licensee is afforded an opportunity to present their material and evidence relevant to the issue and then any other

16:25Persons with an interest such as the issuer of licenses can also prevent present their material and evidence on the issue

16:31I'm just catching up to my slide here. There it is after hearing the material from both sides the appeal committee

16:56Can then ask questions of both parties and any person giving information must be in attendance to answer questions of the committee

17:03There is a more detail into the hearing format that is provided

17:13And basically we will have a break. We've already elected the chair

17:18So then the appellant will have their presentation

17:21It was this will start with more of a general submissions on the issue followed by a witness who will then present information to the committee

17:28That witness will be then be questioned by the respondent the issuer of licenses and then can be questioned by the committee

17:35The purpose of these questions are to see clarification and not engage in debate or discussion

17:41And so the the chair may may limit or control those questions

17:45Depending on how they come in

17:50The same process will be then followed for the respondent

17:53They will present their general submissions followed by any witnesses they have and the questions will follow in the same process as with the the appellant

18:02Lastly there will be an opportunity for an appellant reply

18:06This is to only address any new matters raised in the arguments of the respondent and not does an opportunity to repeat arguments that have already been made

18:13Or have already been touched in in this process

18:19In the unlikely event that there are objections that are raised with any of these questions. We do have a process in place

18:28The person objecting to a question asked will stand and make it clear that they are objecting will briefly state their reasons for the objection

18:37The person asking the question that has the opportunity to either withdraw that question

18:42And move on or they can give their reasons for why it is a proper question

18:47Which will then put the committee into the position to make a ruling on whether the question is to be answered or

18:52Or to refuse to answer the question. This will be done enclosed

18:56I can provide some legal assistance in this process

18:58Then we'll return to open and give the decision on that that you know

19:03Just that small issue of if the question was proper and should be answered or not

19:08Then the questioning will proceed us through the normal procedure

19:14After the questions and all the material has been presented by both sides the committee will then moved into the closed meeting

19:22I will be in close the closed meeting with the committee and provide legal assistance with any issues that crop up

19:29And I can address any other

19:31Clarifications that need to be addressed

19:33But this is not an opportunity to get information that is in the control of the applicant or the appellant or the and the

19:40Respondent so I would encourage all members of the committee to ask any questions that come to mind during that part of the hearing

19:46In close I'm limited to only give you the legal advice that I have available to me

19:52So then committee will return from the closed meeting move into the open meeting

20:01And provide the recommendation in this open meeting that recommendation will then be referred to the April 21st

20:082026 council meeting as per the bylaw for the final decision

20:13After that has has occurred the committee will then adjourn

20:18So that's kind of the process for this this hearing with all the legislation that kind of controls it

20:23There any questions from the committee that I can address now

20:25These will be general questions and not questions specific to the subject matter of the hearing

20:32Thank You mr. Irish are there any questions at all?

20:36Thank you seeing none. I think councillor Richardson is here

20:44Okay, so I don't see any questions

20:46We're gonna take a break and just so everyone in the audience knows we're not reconvening until six o'clock

20:52For the public meeting, okay, so we're gonna take a break and we will be back at six o'clock. Thank you

21:00Thank you. Thank you everyone for waiting and I call the meeting in the public meeting back to order

1:10:49I'm gonna start off with this is the hearing by the city council of a complaint

1:10:54dated March 3rd

1:10:562026 made under section 32

1:10:59subsection a 5 of bylaw number

1:11:032009-18855 as amended by

1:11:08Jennifer meter of TMA law council for Pramila Nepali

1:11:13the complaint in

1:11:15regarding the refusal of a private parking agent license on the basis that

1:11:22willful non-compliance with zoning bylaw 1995-14864

1:11:28Council's role will be to give the complainant and the respondent city an

1:11:33opportunity to make

1:11:35representations after hearing the evidence and submissions

1:11:38Council may dismiss the complaint or rectify any incorrect determination or error that was the subject of the complaint

1:11:48So I'm going to start first by asking the complaint to come to the microphone

1:11:54If you could introduce yourself your name welcome

1:11:58You have ten minutes when that ten minutes is up. I will ask you thirty seconds to to briefly wrap up

1:12:05Thank you very much madam chair. My name is Nancy Smith. I am not Jennifer meter

1:12:11Ms. Meter is my colleague

1:12:13I am appearing today on behalf of the applicant and the appellant Pramila Nepali

1:12:20My client is an individual the reason my client is an individual is that your business license bylaw

1:12:28requires an individual to apply as a

1:12:33Parking agent

1:12:36This is a outline of what I would like to cover in my ten minutes

1:12:41It looks daunting, but I will do my best

1:12:44I trust that the committee members have had an opportunity

1:12:47To review my material and my documents filed prior to today

1:12:53Just on the introduction though my main point will be in relation to item number 13

1:13:02Business licensing is not an appropriate mechanism to invoke enforce zoning compliance

1:13:10Especially when the individual before you madam chair has no control whatsoever

1:13:17over zoning compliance and

1:13:20If I can add to that as a matter of introduction the city simply

1:13:26Concedes this frankly in its submissions

1:13:29If you look at tab one of the city material and paragraph seven

1:13:36Here's the city's real beef

1:13:40It is the property and actions of paisley and witlaw

1:13:46Which is the owner of the property?

1:13:50Not those of Ms. Nepali, which is the problem

1:13:54There is a dispute here madam chair between the city of Guelph and the owner of this property over zoning and

1:14:04There's a mechanism to resolve that dispute

1:14:08We are not going to have a zoning trial before you here today. This is a business license appeal

1:14:15I was here for your training

1:14:22So I'm going to save some time now and not go through the jurisdictional slides that I have

1:14:28I trust these are the the municipal act

1:14:32provisions that empower a municipality as a creature of statute to pass business license bylaws

1:14:40The point for all of this is you are regulating the business in a business license bylaw

1:14:46You are not regulating the use of property

1:14:51The jurisdictional lanes are clearly set out in the municipal act

1:14:57You wear many hats madam chair members of committee as municipal council members

1:15:03You perform many powers and each of those powers you are in a specific lane

1:15:10You are always exercising a specific jurisdiction and you can't

1:15:15conflate lanes

1:15:18You exercise legislative powers you pass zoning bylaws

1:15:23You enforce those zoning bylaws that your enforcement lane

1:15:29This lane is a quasi judicial lane

1:15:34It's not an enforcement vehicle for zoning here you decide whether a use

1:15:43Not whether a use is permitted or not

1:15:47You decide whether a business license to conduct a business activity

1:15:53Should occur that is a quasi judicial power and when you exercise a quasi judicial power the case law is clear

1:16:02You must act fairly and impartially

1:16:06You are not a conduit for the staff position

1:16:12Your application requirements are very straightforward in this case

1:16:18Pre-application inspections application fee prescribed information insurance

1:16:23This is probably one of the most important slides and information

1:16:31for you to consider

1:16:34under schedule 11 of your bylaw a

1:16:39Parking a private parking agent permit can only be issued to an individual a

1:16:48Corporation can't go around and ticket cars

1:16:53Section 4 requires that individual to be trained and there has to be appropriate signage and indemnities

1:17:00the inspections occurred on

1:17:05The 12th of November December the 4th in January 14

1:17:10Ms. Napoli completed all training and

1:17:15As of a certain time and I'll take you to that in my submissions the city said

1:17:23Everything was fine

1:17:25until it wasn't and if I can take you to and ask you to go specifically

1:17:33To the business license bylaw

1:17:36Which is that tab 2 of my material and go to schedule B?

1:17:48Schedule B is that in my material PDF page?

1:17:54133 this is schedule B. This is what these are the inspection

1:18:03required

1:18:05In all applications look at that list

1:18:09The first schedule is an adult entertainment establishment

1:18:15zoning bylaw fire

1:18:18building

1:18:20Amusement establishment zoning fire building and

1:18:25so on

1:18:26Zoning zoning continue down the list zoning we get to schedule 11

1:18:32That's this application a private parking agent. It doesn't say zoning does it and

1:18:42That makes sense your bylaw makes perfect sense

1:18:46How can you refuse a?

1:18:49License to an applicant who has no control over zoning

1:18:56She's not the owner and you're required your bylaw requires that it be her an individual that apply in

1:19:04My respectful submission that is the end of this case

1:19:08In my submission on that ground alone given your bylaw

1:19:14Exercising your quasi judicial function

1:19:17You must grant this license your grants for approval the grounds

1:19:31For refusal

1:19:33Are very interesting and again I ask you to go to

1:19:38tab 1e of my brief and

1:19:43Look at the entire

1:19:46Refusal letter

1:19:49Dear Ms. Pramila Nepali, of course she's the applicant. She's the only one that can have a license

1:19:56This letter confirms that your application for a private parking agent has been refused under bylaw

1:20:02That's the business license bylaw

1:20:06Specifically clause 28e that's it. You're gonna hear my friend bring in a whole slew of other stuff

1:20:15You must disregard it. This is a quasi judicial proceeding this notice of refusal sets the goal posts

1:20:2528e which authorizes the city to refuse a license where the applicant that's miss Nepali

1:20:32Has demonstrated non-compliance with applicable zoning miss Nepali can't demonstrate non-compliance with applicable zoning

1:20:42She's an individual she has nothing to do with zoning and that's why your inspection list

1:20:49Says zoning doesn't apply to a private parking agent. That's why your bylaw is set up this way

1:20:56How can you deny?

1:20:58How can she be willfully non-compliant for something that she has no obligation to comply with

1:21:04It doesn't mean you can't enforce your zoning bylaw

1:21:08And I'll get to that, but you certainly can't do it through these proceedings

1:21:15willful

1:21:17The city has to show you that she was willful. Well, how can she be willful if she has no obligation?

1:21:23She has no control over zoning complements will for or otherwise

1:21:30And as the city said in its brief, it's paisley and wit law. That's the problem

1:21:37There's an ongoing dispute with paisley and wit law. I don't represent paisley and wit law

1:21:46paisley and wit law however wants to complete a parking structure a permanent parking structure

1:21:53Under an OLT order Ontario land tribunal order the city wants paisley and wit law to complete a permanent

1:22:01parking structure as soon as possible. We are aligned on that

1:22:04And as soon as that permanent parking structure is complete this temporary lot

1:22:11Where miss napoli wants to give tickets for illegal parking?

1:22:15It's not needed anymore

1:22:17Once the permanent parking is built. It's not needed anymore

1:22:22The city comes out and enforces parking she'll tell you for fire lanes, but they do not

1:22:28enforce parking

1:22:30For illegal parkers and miss napoli knows who they are because they have a whole system

1:22:36at

1:22:37paisley and wit law

1:22:38To identify who can park legally and who can't and all she wants to do is go out and give tickets

1:22:46So that there's room in that temporary parking lot

1:22:50For people to park legally miss smith. Can I get you to wrap up your 10 minutes or up? Thank you

1:22:56Um

1:22:59Yes, I will do my best

1:23:02You've got 30 seconds

1:23:05Um

1:23:06Given the importance I do believe madam chair that you do have discretion

1:23:11as a committee to um afford additional time in situations where

1:23:18I ask for it and respectfully request that the severity of the situation warrants it

1:23:23So I will do my west but I but I do respectfully request

1:23:28That if I'm wasting your time, please let me know it. That's not my intent

1:23:33But smith so all of us I can speak to all of us as counselors as committee members have reviewed the materials

1:23:39If you could use your time judiciously and just direct us to where you want to be

1:23:45That would be helpful

1:23:47I am trying to do that madam chair

1:23:50I am your time is up

1:23:52Thank you. Um

1:23:55If I can just say one more thing very very quickly if I could ask you to go to my material tab 11

1:24:03Page 257. Oh my powerpoint's gone

1:24:25Okay, um

1:24:28Anyway, I did have a powerpoint that dealt with this

1:24:32Um, and if we could just go back to that if I had pressed it I didn't mean to is somebody else maneuvering the powerpoint

1:24:43I know

1:24:48It's just not going. Oh here we go. Pardon me

1:24:53Thank you for reading all this part here madam chair

1:24:57Where even though paisley witlaw is not before you my submission to you is they have been more than reasonable in trying to

1:25:05Deal with the temporary parking lot issue

1:25:17So if you look at page 257

1:25:20This is the zoning non compliance order that the city has issued. It's dated february the 6th

1:25:292006

1:25:30It talks about a zoning inspection conducted on january the first 2026 you have no

1:25:37material before you regarding that inspection

1:25:40It goes on to say that

1:25:44paisley and witlaw not my client

1:25:47has to rectify a zoning infraction

1:25:52And it gives it to until on the second page april the 6th

1:25:572026

1:26:00So they have until april the 6th under this zoning to rectify the under this notice to rectify the zoning

1:26:07And if they don't the city has options

1:26:11The city can charge

1:26:13The property owner not my client with violation of the zoning

1:26:17That zoning charge would go before a justice of the peace under the provincial fences act

1:26:24That case the parties would call witnesses. There would be a court reporter evidence would be under oath

1:26:30There would be appeal rights

1:26:32Based on a transcript because of the court reporter to a provincial court judge

1:26:39That's zoning enforcement

1:26:41We can't have that trial here. We're not having that trial here

1:26:47Not only is a zoning infraction an alleged infraction

1:26:53Not even covered under your bylaw for an individual applicant

1:26:57Even if it were you cannot make that adjudication in this forum. Thank you for your time. Thank you

1:27:05Uh to council members and councillor

1:27:08Gibson on screen as well. Are there questions of a clarifying nature?

1:27:13Thank you. I don't see any uh miss smith if you would like to uh call your witness

1:27:23And again, uh an introduction of who you are. You're going to question just so the committee understands

1:27:29The respondent will have an opportunity to question the witness and then we as a committee member will have an opportunity to question as well

1:27:38Thank you, madam chair. Uh, my witness is the applicant

1:27:44and the appellant

1:27:46Pramila napoli and miss napoli is here. Is it okay if she stays seated with her microphone on?

1:27:53Okay, so miss napoli just make sure you press the button

1:28:01excellent

1:28:03I have provided the committee with a will say of miss napoli

1:28:08And I will take her through it now

1:28:12Miss napoli, please state your full name and what is your position with shembury property management corp

1:28:20And just give us a deep some details about what you do there

1:28:25Okay, I am pramila napoli working as customer service lies at shembury group of companies

1:28:31Um, my duties include answering calls and emails

1:28:36Responding to questions and complaints and in in person inquiries of residents

1:28:43coordination with maintenance prepare and distributing notices and reports. Um, I also

1:28:50monitor insurance renewals insurance and regulatory deadlines. Um, I assist with vendor management and accountant

1:28:57I also deal with some administrative

1:29:00Paperwork in the company and I also have been assisting with parking management

1:29:05Okay, and were you involved at all with the planning development or construction of west peak condos?

1:29:12No, I was not dealing with any construction activities at all

1:29:16Have you been involved at all with the quarter tribunal litigation involving west peak condos and the city of wealth?

1:29:23No, not at all

1:29:25And tell us just a little bit about

1:29:29The condos, uh, how many units what's occupied that sort of thing?

1:29:35So we have total of 381 condos

1:29:39across all three buildings out of which 317 are physically occupied

1:29:48And what sort of communication did you have with purchases of your condos?

1:29:53regarding parking

1:29:55So, um, our purchasers have one parking spot for their unit. Um,

1:30:02The one who is not registered do not get any parking spot at all

1:30:07Okay

1:30:09And there's a permanent parking structure being, um, constructed. When did that construction start?

1:30:16The construction began at around october of 2025

1:30:21And where do people park now while that's being built?

1:30:24Um, so we have temporary parking lot. People are parking there currently

1:30:32And when the initial construction started, how many temporary parking spaces were available to unit owners at that time?

1:30:40Uh, as far as I know, there were 377 parking spaces, but I'm not very sure about that. Okay

1:30:47And are any of those parking spaces, um,

1:30:51Being used for construction equipment staging given the construction of the permanent building?

1:30:58Um, so this was not my decision. So I'm not very sure but uh, some of the parking spots were blocked in the initial construction of

1:31:08Permanent parking lot, but for now we have released the spaces already. Okay

1:31:15Tell us about vehicle registration to control parking on the temporary lot. Um

1:31:21After I was informed about parking management

1:31:24We started collecting vehicle information from registered tenants and unit owners

1:31:31So we have now all the records. Um, mostly those were provided to us as registered tenant and unit owners

1:31:41And what was the purpose of having them register?

1:31:44Um, the purpose was solely to manage the temporary parking lot as we have limited spaces there

1:31:50So yeah, it was the sole purpose management of temporary parking lot for now

1:31:58And and the committee has all your information. So to just sort of go to our punch. So go to um, how many vehicles are

1:32:06Presently registered in your system as legal?

1:32:12Um as per our system, I believe we have 102 unit owners and residents that are registering into our system

1:32:21So if you go to enforcement of the private parking bylaw, why what's going to be your role as a parking agent?

1:32:28Why why do you want a parking agent license?

1:32:32um

1:32:34So it's for the management so that I can

1:32:36Determine who is unregistered and I can ticket or to them

1:32:41um to manage the spaces for registered and unit owners

1:32:46And so who would you issue tickets to?

1:32:50To unregistered vehicles

1:32:53That do not have permission that do not have permission to park in our temporary parking lot. Okay. Thank you

1:33:02And so you applied for a license

1:33:05Given the next step in your system. Is that fair?

1:33:10So

1:33:11Question again, you applied for a parking agent license so that you could ticket those that shouldn't be there, right?

1:33:18Yes. All right. So tell us about that process

1:33:22About the application for a private parking agent license. Tell us what you did

1:33:30Sorry, I didn't get the question

1:33:32Yeah, if you go to um

1:33:35It starts about paragraph 36 of your will say

1:33:42Tell us about applying for a parking agent license

1:33:46Okay, so we applied for um

1:33:49Applied for private by parking agent license on september

1:33:54me and my cfo

1:33:57Applied for the licensing and then we paid necessary fees and provided all the documents to the city

1:34:03um over few months city came to the proper property to

1:34:09Inspect the parking lot and parking signages

1:34:11um the first inspection was on november 12

1:34:15Where our city has demanded to change the signs add some signs remove some signs, which we did

1:34:23After I completed the training

1:34:27On early december the city again reviewed all the signages again and

1:34:33Asked us to make more changes, which we did after that. Um, they

1:34:39inspected the lot again

1:34:42After the inspection they told me that um everything is done now and everything looks good

1:34:48So they're now maybe approving me for license, which got refused on february 12th

1:34:55So just to be clear as of january the 14th the 2026

1:35:01You thought everything

1:35:03Had been done. Yes

1:35:06Thank you, madam chair. I have no further questions

1:35:09Thank you, um miss Thornton will you

1:35:14Okay, thank you. Thank you

1:35:27Uh, good afternoon miss napoly. I've got a couple quick questions for you. Yes. Good afternoon

1:35:32Okay, so you said that done just to make sure that you're talking to the microphone. Thank you. Yes, okay

1:35:38Okay, so you said that you are employed by uh shembury management corp and not paisley wittla. Is that correct? Yes

1:35:45uh

1:35:46But on your licensing application under company you did list paisley wittla as as the company that you were applying under is that correct?

1:35:56Yes

1:35:57and uh

1:35:59Just uh in the applicants a book of documents

1:36:03If you'd like to turn to that tab one

1:36:06pdf page four

1:36:14This is your appeal letter and the very first sentence reads we represent the appellant per millon per millon apolly

1:36:22And her employer paisley wittla incorporated. Is that correct?

1:36:28Yes, I can see that

1:36:29Thank you

1:36:33Uh, so can you confirm that if licensed you will be administering parking at 201 elmira south and uh, no other locations?

1:36:42Yes, uh, it's actually we have three buildings. Uh, three buildings have different location

1:36:48109 paisley road

1:36:50181 elmira and 191 elmira

1:36:53But they're all within the same housing complex. Yes, thank you

1:36:58Uh, so when you applied to become a licensed private parking agent

1:37:02Uh, did you review the business licensing bylaw?

1:37:05Particularly schedule 11

1:37:07Which details the requirements to become a licensed private parking agent? No, I didn't

1:37:13All right. Well, I'd like to take you to uh the applicants book of documents

1:37:18That's a tab two

1:37:21PDF page 172

1:37:26So that is a schedule 11 of the private licensing bylaw

1:37:31And in particular section four

1:37:34Yes, uh, which reads in addition to all other requirements of this bylaw

1:37:40Every private parking agent seeking to obtain or holding a valid business license must

1:37:46And then it gives a number of requirements

1:37:49If I could bring your attention to subsection e

1:37:52Yes

1:37:54You would agree that that reads ensure that parking enforcement

1:37:58Conducted by the private parking agent of the said property

1:38:02Is only conducted under the provisions of city of gulf bylaws that regulate parking

1:38:09Is that correct? Yes

1:38:12All right, and uh, you would agree then that the city of gulf zoning bylaw

1:38:17is a bylaw

1:38:19And it does dictate the number the minimum number of parking spaces that a property must provide for its residents

1:38:26Uh, and in that way it is a city of gulf bylaw that regulates park

1:38:30Uh, madam madam chair. I do object to that question. This is a fact witness

1:38:35These are legal arguments that my friend can make and is closing. It's not an appropriate question

1:38:44The procedure that we have established is that the committee will withdraw

1:38:55Ask her if the question has the opportunity after hearing from the objector

1:38:58If they would like to withdraw the question if they don't withdraw the question

1:39:03They can provide their reasons for supporting why it's a proper question that will then go to committee for a decision

1:39:08Which we will do enclosed and then come into open to to provide that decision

1:39:14Thank you. I I withdraw the question. Okay. Thank you. You may proceed

1:39:20All right, so, uh, are you familiar then with the the property at 201 almyra and just the surrounding housing complex? Yes

1:39:28Okay

1:39:30So, uh, are you aware then that the property is subject to an Ontario land tribunal order?

1:39:35That requires it to maintain 377 parking spaces for residents and for visitors to use

1:39:42Uh for this one, I was not very sure because I started on

1:39:47August and I think this was even before that so I have no idea about this one

1:39:53Okay, uh

1:39:55So would you be aware then that that number 377 spaces?

1:39:59Is actually a reduction from the existing zoning requirements

1:40:03And that was specifically requested by paisley and whitelock

1:40:09I don't have any idea about that

1:40:14All right. Well, are you aware that the property owners are not currently then providing?

1:40:18377 parking spaces as required by the ontario land tribunal

1:40:24No, I don't have any idea

1:40:26Do you know how many parking spaces are currently available?

1:40:30As far as I know, um, it's 300 but i'm not very sure about that one too

1:40:37Okay, but you would agree that's substantially less than 377

1:40:42Okay

1:40:45And uh, I believe it's at paragraph 15 of your will say

1:40:50You state that 377 parking spaces were provided prior to the construction of the parking garage

1:40:59I think you said you weren't entirely certain about that

1:41:02But I would just put to you that it was actually 362 parking spaces

1:41:08Okay, uh, as was delineated on the site plan and that there were never at any point 377 parking spaces available

1:41:20Only if you know

1:41:22No, I have no idea

1:41:25Okay, thank you. All right. So then I'd like to uh turn to the applicants book of documents

1:41:36tab 10

1:41:37That's pdf page 254

1:41:46And can you just confirm that when

1:41:49You are administering parking at 201 Elmira road south and just the surrounding housing complex

1:41:56These are the rules that you're intending to enforce

1:41:59Yes

1:42:01Okay, and you would agree that rule one says that parking is for registered residents only

1:42:06Yes, and then under that it says that each unit is permitted one parking space. Yes

1:42:12Okay, and you would agree that rule three says that currently zero visitor parking is being provided

1:42:19Sorry question again

1:42:22Just under rule three on that page. It says that uh visitor parking is not being provided currently. Is that correct?

1:42:29Uh, so after this was made we actually made some visitor parking available in the property

1:42:36So there are a few visitor parking available currently at our property. Are you aware of how many spaces that would be?

1:42:44Uh, approximately, I think it's 10, but I don't know exact figure of that

1:42:49Okay, but uh, you did say there were about 381 residential units at the property. Is that correct? Yes

1:42:58Okay, so what happens then if more people register for a spot then the number of temporary spaces that you have available

1:43:06Who would be deciding in that case? Which residents gets a parking permit?

1:43:11Since I'm not sure but the figures of currently available parking spaces. I won't be able to comment on that. Thank you. So, uh

1:43:24Then uh, taking you back to your will say at paragraph 24

1:43:29Uh, you say that you wrote to residents of the property to inform them that they would require a parking permit

1:43:35In order to use their temporary parking space

1:43:39Yes

1:43:41So if I can take you to uh, the applicants book of documents at tab nine

1:43:46It's at pdf page 251

1:43:52This is the email that was sent out to residents. Is that correct?

1:43:57Yes

1:43:59Okay, and uh, you say that multiple residents

1:44:05Have not yet registered their vehicle and that this is the final warning they're going to be getting

1:44:10Is that correct? Yes

1:44:12And you are referring here to legal residents of the property. Is that correct? Yes

1:44:20Uh, and then further down you note that parking passes will only be issued to the listed owner

1:44:26Or registered occupants of the unit

1:44:29And that you won't be providing permits to anybody who the owner considers to be an unregistered tenant

1:44:35Yes

1:44:36Uh, so like a sub letter for instance, you would not register their vehicle. Yes. All right. Uh, thank you

1:44:47Taking you back to the uh, the will say

1:44:50Uh, you indicate that by your count there are 71 unit owners

1:44:55With tenants that the property owner currently considers to be illegal. Is that correct? Yes

1:45:01And that would be according to his interpretation of the agreement of purchase and sale. Is that what you say?

1:45:09It's a paragraph 19, I believe of your will say

1:45:18Yes

1:45:20And are you aware that this agreement of purchase and sale is currently subject to an ongoing court case between the owner

1:45:26And more than 100 residents of the property? No, I don't know. Well

1:45:33Uh, would you say then

1:45:36That uh, while the owner has his interpretation of the contract a significant portion of the residents have a different interpretation

1:45:43Right. Mr. Or madam chair, uh, not an appropriate question. Uh for a fact witness

1:45:53My friend could do it. My friend can make that submission in argument

1:45:57I

1:45:59Just in response to that she does bring up the uh agreement of purchase and sale multiple times in her will say

1:46:04She does say that she is familiar with the litigation. I

1:46:08think she's brought it into uh

1:46:11Just to correct the record. She said she was not familiar with the litigation

1:46:27If I may respond just uh, if we're going exactly by what paragraph eight of her will say says

1:46:34It says that I have not been involved in the court or tribunal litigation

1:46:39Uh involving the west peak condos and have little knowledge of that litigation except as it relates to my duties

1:46:45As the customer service liaison

1:46:48Just to clarify mr. White, um, would you like a committee ruling on this or would you like to withdraw or reword your question?

1:47:06I I'd like a ruling, please

1:47:08Okay

1:47:11So we're going to withdraw

1:47:15Oh

1:47:16We would rule right here

1:47:18Yeah, we have to withdraw and to close is what he was saying earlier. Yes

1:47:22Okay

1:47:23Counselor Gibson. Yeah, no, it's not done like a council meeting. So we're going to withdraw. I'll give us a couple of minutes and we will return

1:54:39Thank you for your patience. Uh the committee convened and we have a decision

1:54:43I'm going to turn to mr. Irish, please and this is the committee's decision

1:54:50The majority of the committee agreed to overrule the objection

1:54:53The question is to be answered by the witness the committee finds that this was an appropriate question that was relevant to this proceeding

1:55:01Thank you. Uh, so then mr. Polly just uh to restate the question

1:55:08You are at least familiar with the litigation as it relates to your job as a customer liaison. Is that correct?

1:55:15Yes

1:55:16Are you aware that there are more than 100 residents involved in this litigation?

1:55:21I'm not sure about that

1:55:24Okay, but would you say that uh, you are aware are

1:55:27You're aware that the subject of the litigation is the contract of purchase and sale

1:55:32No

1:55:34All right

1:55:36Well, uh, thank you then those are uh

1:55:40That's all I have to say about that

1:55:45Miss napolly then have you personally gone out and looked at the current state of the parking lot? Yes, I have

1:55:52Thank you. So you are familiar with

1:55:55Just the current state of affairs at the parking lot. Yes

1:55:58Okay, well in the city's book of documents

1:56:03at pdf

1:56:05Believe starting at pdf 13

1:56:08There are a couple pictures of the property

1:56:15These were taken back on January 9th by city employee bruce abry

1:56:21While conducting a zoning inspection of the parking lot

1:56:26And just uh just looking at these pictures you would agree that there are no

1:56:30Painted lines on the ground. Is that correct? No, they are not

1:56:34Uh, there's no real delineation of where the actual parking spots are. Is that correct? Yes

1:56:42Uh, so let's say that you are enforcing parking here

1:56:45How would you decide who gets a ticket and who's permitted to be in the parking lot?

1:56:50Uh for now, um, but I have been instructed and what I have been told is that we are

1:56:57Ticketing and doing the vehicle which is not registered

1:57:01Which doesn't have that parking permit? Yes, that are only being given to uh people that the owner considers to be legal residents

1:57:08Yes, yes

1:57:10So what steps would you take if you were licensed?

1:57:13To ensure that you are not ticketing cars that belong to lawful residents

1:57:17Who are subject to this litigation who disagree with the owner's interpretation of the contract of purchase and sale?

1:57:24And for that reason if not obtained parking permits

1:57:29So your question again

1:57:31All right, just what steps would you take to make sure that you're not issuing tickets to people who are legal residents?

1:57:37But have not obtained parking permits

1:57:47So your question is um those who are registered but haven't taken parking permits

1:57:54That's correct. I would not know um if

1:58:07If

1:58:09They haven't registered I would not know that um the tenant but then it has car or not. So I would not be able to tell you

1:58:17But if they don't have that permit then they're getting a ticket. Is that right?

1:58:21Yes, and it doesn't matter if they're a legal resident who just disagrees with the interpretation of the contract of purchase and sale

1:58:28Yes

1:58:29Okay, and the same would go for visitors of those residents. They'd get ticketed too

1:58:33So the people who are parking and visitors parking won't be ticketed

1:58:41I'm sorry

1:58:43For visitors parking. We don't have any

1:58:46Extra or anything else

1:58:49Any other parking permits? So the people who are parking at visitors parking won't be ticketed

1:58:56Okay, but currently there are only about 10 visitor spaces. Yes. Yes 381 units. Yes

1:59:03All right, and if you are licensed do you intend to hold off on enforcing parking restrictions until the property

1:59:10Is in compliance with the minimum parking requirements and there is one parking space for every unit

1:59:15Um, no comment on that

1:59:25Can I say that?

1:59:27So if you get licensed though, you're you're going to be giving tickets as soon as you can right? You're not going to wait for compliance

1:59:33Yes, okay

1:59:36Thank you. Those are my questions

1:59:41Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. White. Okay now it is to committee members if you have questions of a clarifying nature

1:59:51Anyone have any questions

1:59:57Seeing none. Thank you very much

1:59:59And next we have um, is thorton. Are you doing the presentation? Next. Thank you

2:00:06And again 10 minutes with some grace

2:00:09um

2:00:10and then questions of a

2:00:13clarifying nature from the committee members

2:00:16Thank you very much chair Bucitil

2:00:19I will try to be brief. Um, I have included in the city's brief an overview of the city's

2:00:25Uh, well, I am here representing the issuer of licenses on this appeal

2:00:30my understanding of your role is to

2:00:34Make any corrections if you feel that the issuer of licenses has not properly or appropriately or

2:00:41judiciously exercised discretion

2:00:44In this matter. So the decision of the

2:00:47issuer of licenses was to refuse this application

2:00:51And I do absolutely admit that and acknowledge that it is not any deficiency on miss napali's

2:01:00personal part

2:01:02However, um, it is and I think actually the questions that mr. White just asked of miss napali

2:01:08Kind of crystallize what the issue is here and that is that upon the issuance of the license

2:01:16It is miss napali's stated intention

2:01:19to begin issuing tickets in a manner that is in conflict with an order of the ontario land tribunal

2:01:27Which order fixes the applicable zoning and which order was was was uh,

2:01:33Determined and the copy of the decision is in the record was determined in accordance with a contested hearing before that tribunal

2:01:42And the applicable section of the business license bylaw which governs the exercise of that discretion is section 28

2:01:52and subsection e

2:01:54And that section states that where the applicant or licensee is carrying on an activity in relation to the business

2:02:02That is or will be

2:02:04If the applicant is licensed in contravention of this bylaw or any other bylaw statute or regulation

2:02:12It is an appropriate exercise of discretion by the issuer of licenses to say no

2:02:18And so what we have here and it isn't it isn't simply a matter of of if this individual hasn't done anything wrong

2:02:26You must issue a license that provision is in place

2:02:31Because the city is not to be made a party to activities that are not legal

2:02:39and

2:02:40Simply stated the required parking at this location until august of sixth of

2:02:482026 is that

2:02:51377 spots must be provided. We were told that there are there are

2:02:57317

2:02:59Units that are currently occupied. We there is also

2:03:06The witness was only able to say what her boss's interpretation of that contract is but there is no evidence

2:03:14of any variation of that requirement of 377 spots

2:03:21There is also a site plan the site plan lays out a delineation and you'll hear more

2:03:27From the city's witness about the need for that delineation

2:03:31And then there is also the requirement of visitor parking now for the first time

2:03:36Before this tribunal today, but before this committee today rather

2:03:40We've heard about visitor parking because the rules that were filed with the application said no visitor parking whatsoever

2:03:47But the ontario land tribunal held that there must be visitor parking and in fact, we know that if there's three

2:03:53377 is the number then there should be 60 spots for visitors to park

2:04:00The fact of the matter is that since that tribunal order was issued

2:04:06No steps have ever been taken to achieve that 377 and in fact by miss napal his own admission

2:04:14We've now dropped probably about 77 spots below what that threshold is

2:04:20What is what is the practical consequence of that and that's what you're going to hear from

2:04:25from mr

2:04:27Mr. Corey mcqueen who is not only the person who carried out the inspections for purpose of this

2:04:34Licensing application, but is also a the supervisor of bylaw enforcement and security

2:04:40And there is a reason why people are not being

2:04:43Ticketed and it is not about a dispute between the city and the property owner. There is no dispute

2:04:49There has been a determination of what the required parking is and that is 377 spots

2:04:55Properly delineated as per the per the site plan that doesn't exist and therefore it is not fair

2:05:02To ticket people who are using that temporary space

2:05:06It is you cannot determine whether or not that person is in fact a valid visitor because

2:05:13Maybe 10 visitor spots will be issued. We haven't been told how or

2:05:18And I and expect you're going to hear that they're not delineated. So we can't determine that

2:05:23But we must not allow

2:05:26The issuance of a license to undercut our own bylaws. It is not the case that only going to

2:05:33Provincial offenses court and issuing tickets is the way to enforce the bylaw. We also

2:05:38Don't undercut our own laws. We don't undercut any other statute

2:05:44In in the in furtherance of issuing a license. So Ms. Nepali herself has not personally done anything

2:05:52incorrect

2:05:54But paisley and white law which owns the property

2:05:58Is not in compliance and the other important thing to note and that is identified in the overview

2:06:06Is that Ms. Nepali and and in answer to mr. White's question. She confirmed this

2:06:11Only one address was applied for in relation to this business license or this this parking agent license

2:06:19So it is only 201 almyra

2:06:22Or there are some other municipal addresses, but it is only this location

2:06:27That miss napali is purporting to ticket and she has told you already she will on instructions from her

2:06:35Her employer who is offside

2:06:38These bylaws be issuing tickets in accordance with those people that her employer does not believe should be there

2:06:45that is

2:06:47fundamentally undercutting our own zoning bylaw and

2:06:50undercutting the discernment determination that was made by the ontario land tribunal the city is not to be made party to that

2:06:57and where

2:06:59It is clear as I believe has been established already, but I will be asking some more questions from mr. McEwen

2:07:06If it has been established that that will be the end result

2:07:09Then the exercise of discretion by the issuer of license was

2:07:14appropriate at law and in accordance with this bylaw and so I will be asking

2:07:19You to uphold that decision at the end of this process

2:07:23And subject to your questions. That's my overview and I would

2:07:27Um, I'm happy to answer those questions and then to proceed with miss with with the examination

2:07:33Thank you, miss Thornton, uh, and to committee members any questions at all

2:07:39Yeah, councillor Gibson

2:07:42Thank you through you chair busatel

2:07:44I would just like clarification if you don't mind that the witness has been introduced as an individual for the purpose of applying for the license

2:07:51But they are actually employed by the property owner

2:07:54Uh, that is in terms of the notice of appeal

2:08:00The notice of appeal identified her as an employee of paisley and white law

2:08:07She today identified herself as an employee of shenbury property management, which is the management of company. I believe

2:08:15You know, I'd invite um the the appellant to correct me if i'm wrong, but is associated with paisley and white law

2:08:22They are they are under common ownership

2:08:27Okay, if if that statement is wrong, uh, perhaps

2:08:30The appellant can say so. I just wanted clarification. Thank you

2:08:37If you would like me to assist, um

2:08:39uh

2:08:40councillor gibson if you look at the witnesses will say

2:08:47She talks about

2:08:49She is a service liaison for west peak condos

2:08:54And west peak condos are owned by paisley white law

2:08:59Which is a subsidiary of shenbury

2:09:03And I think I'm she says she's employed by shenbury. So I assume that's who

2:09:09Signs her paycheck. Okay. Thank you very much

2:09:14Thank you. Is there anything further from miss thorton?

2:09:18Seeing nothing if you'd like to call your witness. All right

2:09:21um, so I am going to um ask um, Mr

2:09:26McEwen has his uh his uh microphone on so

2:09:31Sir, could you please state your name and title for the committee? Hi there? My name is corn mcune

2:09:37I'm the supervisor for bylaw and security here at the city of waff

2:09:42And uh supervisor of bylaw and security. Um, could you briefly describe to the committee?

2:09:47Um, your areas of responsibility? Uh, first in relation to licensing inspections. Yep

2:09:53I do licensing inspections and I also handle parking enforcement as well

2:09:57And uh in terms of parking enforcement, what are your responsibilities?

2:10:02Uh

2:10:03Doing site inspections ensuring uh signage and everything else is being uh complied with on that property. Okay

2:10:09Um, I think we heard earlier. I just wanted to ask you to confirm. Um, I believe the evidence of um,

2:10:17Ms. Napoli was there were three

2:10:19Inspections carried out in respect of this application. I guess there was I believe uh, november december and january

2:10:26So two in 2025 and one in 2026

2:10:30All right, so could you please briefly walk the appeal committee through what you did?

2:10:35On the last of that final inspection that you carried out?

2:10:38Further to that application so, uh, what areas of the property did you inspect? Yeah, so I inspected the entire property for uh,

2:10:46For their parking signage, uh, as well as the roadways of that property as well with that that have the fire routes

2:10:52Um, and what were you looking for specifically further to that application?

2:10:57Uh, I was looking for proper signage, uh

2:11:00Capacity of the parking lot uh condition of the parking lot and any type of lot lined in lineations for the spots on the for the parking

2:11:09And what were your findings respecting the signage?

2:11:12Uh, the signage was adequate. Uh, the condition of the lot was very poor

2:11:17Potholes not paved no no no lined in lineations again

2:11:21And just an overall mess and kind of the park back parking lot area now there was snow

2:11:26But there was also snow and debris kind of pushed up

2:11:29in those areas

2:11:31and um

2:11:33What was your finding in terms of capacity of the lot?

2:11:36Um, it was hard to say because there were no lot no lined in lineations for parking spots. So

2:11:43But it did not appear to me that they had the 377 spots that they are supposed to have

2:11:50And what did you do with your findings following your inspections?

2:11:53Mr. McKeown

2:11:54Yep following the my findings I reported them to my manager dustin grok

2:12:00Um, including those inspections that you carried out for purposes of the license application

2:12:06um, how many times

2:12:09Approximately have you been at that that 201 l myra south property in an official capacity?

2:12:14Three times in an official capacity

2:12:16Three times

2:12:18inclusive of the inspections or

2:12:20Yeah, just those three times. Yeah, okay

2:12:22Beyond the licensing inspections. Have you ever been on that property in an official capacity?

2:12:28Um

2:12:30A few times in an official capacity just to do a drive-through as we've received multiple complaints about

2:12:35Uh parking issues on that property

2:12:38And so expanding on that for what purposes parking related

2:12:43Besides the property inspection. Have you been at the 201 on myra property?

2:12:48Um, so it was for parking complaints regarding the condition of the lot

2:12:52Fire root signage accessibility signage, again, no locked in lineation for the parking spots

2:12:58Multiple concerns over the maintenance of the parking lots cars being blocked in

2:13:04safety concerns such as lack of salt and lighting

2:13:08Okay, and as of your january inspection, um, were some of those issues still uh

2:13:18Of concern on the property. Yes, again, it didn't appear that they had 377 spots. There were no, uh,

2:13:25line spot delineations

2:13:27So I was unable to confirm if they actually did have those 377 spots

2:13:33um

2:13:34Do you um, you so your your title is supervisor by law and security

2:13:39Um, do you do you yourself issue parking tickets and or deal with the public in respective parking tickets?

2:13:45Yes, I have the ability to rate parking tickets. And yes, I do often deal with the public in regards to parking

2:13:50related issues and questions

2:13:53All right

2:13:54Are there any concerns given the physical state of this temporary parking lot in terms of issuing valid parking tickets?

2:14:03Um, absolutely, uh, you know a lot of the spots

2:14:07Or lack of spots or underwater the pylons

2:14:11That they have that separate kind of their parking areas

2:14:15When I was there the one time the pylons were knocked over the string that they had used had been had collapsed

2:14:21Whether it be due to weather or someone knocking them over

2:14:25uh, no drainage and uh, very icy conditions on the in the in the parking lot specifically

2:14:32All right, so why are why from a ticketing perspective of those conditions of concern? Mr. McEwen?

2:14:41um, well

2:14:42a private property agent can issue

2:14:45parking tickets for for many reasons and and simply having no lined in lineations for the spots

2:14:51and not knowing

2:14:53If a vehicle is registered and not registered and also not having any visitor spots and knowing if those visitors

2:15:00are registered with the

2:15:03property management

2:15:06What impact would there be if a private parking agent were to begin to issuing tickets tomorrow?

2:15:11On this lot lot and i'm going to ask you first

2:15:14What would the impact be on the city's bylaw enforcement process?

2:15:18um, you know, I've been I've been doing parking for 20 plus years and if i'm somewhat confused about

2:15:25Kind of how I would go about writing tickets on that property

2:15:29I think somebody who's got very little or no experience would would have a very difficult time

2:15:35What would the impact be on the public if tickets were issued starting tomorrow? It would inundate our

2:15:42um our court system or our, um, a ps system, which we currently use for, um,

2:15:47disputing

2:15:49tickets

2:15:50um, I

2:15:52Don't think it would be a fair and just way to

2:15:55Um for tickets to be written on this property

2:15:58In good faith

2:16:02Okay, I'd like to um call up some photographs

2:16:06um, and uh, they're set out in the city brief starting at page 14

2:16:12And maybe if if yes for the benefit of the committee

2:16:15um

2:16:17And

2:16:19I'm not sure

2:16:22It might be a couple pages forward

2:16:28this one

2:16:30so I I I

2:16:32I for the in full disclosure to the committee, um, mr.

2:16:36Kami Kuhn you did not yourself take these photographs. No, I did not my understanding is they were taken

2:16:43January 22nd how that was how in time relative to your inspection. I believe I was there January 12th

2:16:51okay

2:16:54To the best of your recollection does this

2:16:57Does what's set out in the photographs also match with your recollection of the state?

2:17:02Yes, absolutely to say the parking lot. Obviously you can tell it was a very icy cold windy day

2:17:07um, you can tell that there's no salt on the ground. Um, there's no

2:17:12uh parking spot

2:17:13delineations, um, and then even in the other photo you can see what I was talking about with the pylons and the string

2:17:18Um, kind of strung all over the place. Okay, we can move forward to that in a minute

2:17:23I just wanted to ask or maybe backwards. Um, I just wanted to ask mr.

2:17:27McHugh and if you can orient us on the actual property

2:17:31Um, what what are we looking at in this photograph?

2:17:34So you're looking at the back parking lot

2:17:37Straight ahead on that picture is 1098 paisley to the left is the parking garage that they're currently in the process of

2:17:45And then to the right outside of the picture

2:17:47You've got uh 201

2:17:49191 and 181 on my right. I believe are the uh

2:17:53building numbers

2:17:55Okay, if we could move forward

2:17:58One page

2:18:01um

2:18:04So could you explain to the appeal committee what we're looking at in this photograph and if this is a condition you also observed?

2:18:12Yes, this is the condition uh that I saw again. You can see from the pictures lots of ice

2:18:17Uh, huge water pond, uh, obviously divots and rivets all all over the place in the uh in the

2:18:23In the parking lot temporary lot area

2:18:26Okay, um, I think if we could move forward, I think of four pages page 19

2:18:32I just sort of see a pile on there. Is there anything?

2:18:38um

2:18:42Just just what are we seeing and and how

2:18:45Yeah, you can clearly say they've they've tried to separate the parking lot

2:18:49Um with pylons, although you can see there's a few pylons missing. Um, when I was there on a couple occasions

2:18:55they did have some string kind of um

2:18:58um

2:18:59Attached to the pylons trying to separate kind of each kind of row of parking

2:19:04But clearly in this picture the the string is gone

2:19:08But yeah, and also some of the pylons are gone as well

2:19:11All right, if we can move forward, uh one more page

2:19:15Recognizing this is a point in time. Um, just just to ask you though, mr. McEwen

2:19:21Um, what do we see here? And is that a is that a condition you observed in your inspection as well?

2:19:28Uh, yep, especially at the front entrance of the temporary parking lot

2:19:31It seemed like a lot of people were parking um blocking other vehicles in

2:19:35Um, or just not parking in a regular authorized parking spot

2:19:39Um, as you can see here, you know, you've got one car facing one way and then another car facing

2:19:44Uh a different type of way way causing a bit of a traffic jam and a headache for people to get out of that parking lot there

2:19:50All right, um, if we could go to page 10

2:19:55So going back a few

2:20:01Still there. Thank you

2:20:04um, so the zoning inspection produced at an annotated site plan

2:20:09Again to the committee. I ignore this is not prepared by mr. McEwen, but I wanted to ask if he could or if he could

2:20:16Um correlate that with your observations mr. McEwen

2:20:21Um, there are parts in yellow do those?

2:20:24Uh, what what does that mean to you and does that reflect in any way what you observed?

2:20:29Yeah, so from what I observed the parts, uh highlighted in yellow here are essentially kind of a staging area or a contractor area

2:20:36And then everything kind of beyond that I guess from the um on the um, my oversight everything going um

2:20:44South is kind of a temporary parking lot

2:20:48Okay

2:20:49as of today

2:20:51Has the owner paisley white law to your acknowledge it changed the conditions on site that would address the issues that you

2:20:59Observed and reported to the issuer of licenses. No, not to my knowledge

2:21:04Um, and as of today from your perspective as supervisor of bylaw and security

2:21:08Um, what issues if any of fairness and practical enforcement? Would there be if miss napali was issued?

2:21:14um

2:21:15A private parking agent license to begin ticketing tomorrow

2:21:20Yeah, I don't think they could fairly unjustly, um

2:21:23impose any parking infraction or penalty notices now that they're called

2:21:27um on this property, uh without

2:21:31Without them not being fair to the residents that live there

2:21:34Okay, um, those are my questions. Um, so I I'll I will retire and allow

2:21:43Thank you. Miss Thornton. Um, miss smith and then uh committee members

2:21:46You'll have an opportunity as well to ask the uh witness any questions

2:22:26Good evening. Uh, mr. McEwen

2:22:29Good evening

2:22:32Sir, I'd like to start with your inspections

2:22:36Okay, so

2:22:44If I look in the city's material

2:22:49And I look

2:22:51at

2:22:54That's my material

2:22:59And I look at tab three

2:23:01I see inspection. Do you make notes? Uh, when you do your inspections?

2:23:12Um, I didn't for this particular property via email

2:23:16Yeah

2:23:17Okay, so you didn't but you did via email. Which is it?

2:23:21I did. Are you considering what do you consider notes? What do you consider notes, sir? You're the inspection officer. So

2:23:28I didn't do notes, but I

2:23:31Corresponded emails and you corresponded emails with who?

2:23:35With my fellow staff supervisor and manager after every visit correct. Okay

2:23:42So if we look at tab three

2:23:46Those aren't your emails. In fact, those are the inspection notes of mr. Aubrey, correct?

2:23:53I I can't see tab three. So I'm not too sure

2:24:00Sorry, if you can so the clerks can put it up on the screen

2:24:08So and do you have the page number? Sorry, I have page numbers

2:24:12I don't have page numbers in the city brief. I just have tabs. So I don't have a pdf page number

2:24:19I can assist with the pdf. It's a nine of 63 of the city's brief

2:25:12So what we have at tab three

2:25:16Is what I would call inspector notes. Would you agree?

2:25:26I I'll agree with you on that. Okay, and these are the inspector notes of bruce. Aubrey, right?

2:25:34That's what they say. Yep, and it tells us that mr. Aubrey attended on january 9th

2:25:4122nd and 23rd, right?

2:25:44Yep

2:25:45And you attended you said in january on january the 14th, right?

2:25:51Might have been the 12th might have been the 12th. Yeah, I'll have to look back exactly in my notes

2:25:56You're gonna check your notes or your email. I check my email, right your emails

2:26:03Are not in the city material before this committee, correct?

2:26:07I'm not too sure if they are not

2:26:09All right

2:26:11So I don't see them and your council has confirmed that they're not

2:26:16So you have emails

2:26:20Regarding your inspection

2:26:23in november

2:26:25December

2:26:27and january

2:26:30That have not been shared with the committee, correct?

2:26:34Again, I don't know if they haven't been if council's saying they haven't been shared then they haven't been shared

2:26:38Okay, if I can ask you to go

2:26:44To my brief that tab four, which is that page 227

2:27:05This is an email from joel pierce

2:27:09to you

2:27:10Who is joel pierce?

2:27:13believe he works for

2:27:16The well it says on the bottom he works for the shenbury group of companies

2:27:20Do you know joel?

2:27:23Personally, no I've heard of his name

2:27:25Have you met joel never met joel? All right

2:27:29Says hi, kory. I hope you're doing well

2:27:33I'm writing to follow up regarding the timing for issuance of the ticket books

2:27:38Required for our private parking agent to begin enforcing the parking bylaws at west peak by way of recap

2:27:46The required private parking agent training was completed on november the 27th 2025

2:27:54and then it says

2:27:56The final site inspection to confirm compliance with all required signage was completed by you on january 14

2:28:05At which time you advised the site was compliant

2:28:12and ready to proceed

2:28:15Did you advise anyone on january the 14th

2:28:192026 and you'll recall that my client said the same thing in her evidence

2:28:25Did you advise anyone on january 14?

2:28:292026 that the site was compliant and ready to proceed

2:28:34Compliant with the signage

2:28:36I'm sorry compliant with the signage on the property. Okay, so there were still non compliant items

2:28:43from your perspective

2:28:46On january the 14th, right?

2:28:49Correct

2:28:50Did you communicate any of those non compliant items?

2:28:56To mr. Pierce

2:28:58I'd never spoken to mr. Pierce

2:29:01You get you get an email

2:29:04That says that mr. Pierce thinks that the site is compliant

2:29:10Right. Yep

2:29:12Did you respond to the email and say no?

2:29:16The site is not compliant. I don't believe I responded to the email. Okay, so no communication

2:29:23after this email

2:29:25To anyone

2:29:27The owner shambri white law

2:29:30obviously not my client

2:29:32Of any outstanding issues after the january 14 site visit. Is that true? Correct

2:29:40So everything that you told the committee today

2:29:44It's messy

2:29:46It's icy

2:29:48I can't see the delineated lines. You have not communicated any of that

2:29:56To the property owner, correct? I know. Thank you. And then if I can take you

2:30:11to

2:30:15tab 11

2:30:18of my brief

2:30:20page 257

2:30:29This is the notice

2:30:34Sent and if you look at page 258

2:30:38Sent by zoning inspector obry. Do you see that at the bottom of page 258?

2:30:45Yep

2:30:47And this is the notice I referred to in my submissions that gives

2:30:53Paisley and white law until april the 6th to comply with zoning, right?

2:31:00That's what it says. Okay

2:31:02Now mr. Aubrey, I'm going to assume is the same mr. Aubrey

2:31:09Where we looked at the notes

2:31:13At tab three of the city's brief. Is that a fair assumption?

2:31:18Sorry, can repeat the question

2:31:20I'm going to assume that the mr. Aubrey zoning inspector 2

2:31:26On page 258

2:31:29Is the same mr. Aubrey whose notes I've been provided

2:31:33At tab three of the city's brief

2:31:37Yep, if it says his name, right? And if we look at the opening line of the zoning inspection

2:31:44It says zoning inspection conducted on january the 21st

2:31:51You'll agree with me that mr. Aubrey's notes do not indicate an inspection on january the 21st

2:32:00Would you agree with that?

2:32:02I'd have to look back at the notes, but if you say it doesn't say that he inspected it then

2:32:06If you would like to look back, please do. I believe you you would agree

2:32:11Thank you

2:32:20and so aside from

2:32:25Mr. Aubrey's notes who is not here as a witness

2:32:31And this

2:32:34Notice that you have to come that the property owner not my client the property owner has to comply with zoning by april the 6th

2:32:44Your evidence

2:32:47Of non-compliance and I use that word you loosely

2:32:52Your evidence of non-compliance

2:32:56Was what you observed

2:33:00In your january 14 site visit, right? Yeah very similar to what the pictures that Bruce took

2:33:08I'm talking about non-compliance with the number of parking spaces in the temporary lot

2:33:13You said in your evidence it appeared like there were less than 377

2:33:20Correct. Yes, because because no wind delineations

2:33:23right

2:33:24the extent of your evidence for zoning non-appliances is you looking at the lot

2:33:33and

2:33:36speculating

2:33:38That there were less than 377 you did no other calculations or measurements that date

2:33:43It would have been harder to do a calculation with no

2:33:45wind delineations for the spots

2:33:47Fair answer, sir. Fair answer

2:34:00and one final question

2:34:04You are concerned about I would call it a public interest

2:34:10In allowing Ms. Napoli to ticket cars and you've talked about why that is a concern to your enforcement

2:34:20division

2:34:22You would agree with me that Ms based on Ms. Napoli's evidence

2:34:29Her sole

2:34:30role

2:34:32in ticketing cars

2:34:35Is to look at her records

2:34:38See who's legally allowed to park

2:34:42And who's not legally allowed to park based on her

2:34:47her company's system

2:34:50And to ticket those who do not have permission to be on private property

2:34:56You would agree with me that that is the business

2:35:00That she will perform correct

2:35:04Correct. Thank you

2:35:07Thank you, madam chair

2:35:09Thank you committee members now is an opportunity for questions from committee members. Are there any questions?

2:35:16that councillor downer

2:35:20Through you madam chair to the witness mr. McEwen, so I just wanted to just to clarify and confirm that

2:35:31One of the remedies available to the

2:35:36To to paisley and Whitlaw

2:35:39and Ms. Napoli

2:35:42That they can

2:35:44Contract a tow operator if they believe their vehicles trespassing on their property

2:35:50So the way it works is they would contact city gulf bylaw enforcement. We would facilitate the tow on their behalf

2:35:59Okay, so

2:36:01So

2:36:02But they cannot do so as agents of the city

2:36:06It says in the the will say so

2:36:09so they would

2:36:11So they so we wouldn't do that on their behalf then is that what you're saying? We would be there to facilitate the tow, right?

2:36:18Okay, yeah, and they so they can do that and we would be there to facilitate it

2:36:23Yeah, we would be even under their sir even under the current circumstances of not

2:36:30Complying with the zoning if if they're if

2:36:35If they do have a correct private property

2:36:38Agent license

2:36:40Then we would tow on their behalf so they would write the ticket and we would tow on their behalf

2:36:44If they had the license if they had their license, okay, right? Okay, but we're talking about this particular property in general. Yeah, okay

2:36:52Thank you

2:36:56Are there any further questions?

2:36:59With the committee's indulgence that was my question as well. It's in your statement item number 12

2:37:06I'm just going to say it a little bit differently

2:37:08Is that paisley and whitlaw are free to contract privately with a tow operator

2:37:15Outside of the city. Is that correct?

2:37:18When can you clarify when you mean outside of the city like can they contact our outside of a toke company by themselves?

2:37:24Yes, outside of us facilitating or having anything to do with it

2:37:29No, because we have to be on site to make sure that all the requirements are met for the tow

2:37:35Can you expand a bit on what you mean by all the requirements for the tow?

2:37:40um signage

2:37:42Proper identification making sure that it's actually the person that

2:37:47Has either the property management or the owner of the property has to be there on site for the tow

2:37:54Okay, so the owner of the property has to be there and and would the city have a role by-law in determining

2:38:00In who is lawful or not

2:38:03Yeah, we do that through a number of different ways either someone having a private property

2:38:08agent license or

2:38:10A letter stating that the property management is in charge of this property and they have authorization to take it under tow

2:38:17Okay, thank you

2:38:21Councillor downer. I sort of need further clarification on number 12

2:38:27So it says paisley and whitlaw are free to contract privately with tow operators if they believe that there are vehicles trespassing on their property

2:38:36They cannot do so as agents of the city when applicable by-laws are not being met

2:38:42So can they do so?

2:38:44Not as agents of the city. So if they were not an agent of the city

2:38:49Like if we hadn't don't give them a license. Are they still free?

2:38:54To contact privately with a tow operator

2:38:57They can contact the tow operator the tow operator will not come and remove the vehicle

2:39:02That's clear. Thanks

2:39:05Thank you. Councillor Gibson

2:39:08Yeah, thank you

2:39:10I appreciate all this information. It's really it's really good to hear because we want to understand

2:39:17Sort of the root cause of the issue and I think I'm getting a clear picture in the absence of a

2:39:23private vendor ticketing agent

2:39:26However, we determine it

2:39:27What are the options for the property owner to manage?

2:39:38What are the options for the current property owner to manage parking on their property?

2:39:44So I understand there's a dispute between

2:39:47There's a dispute between who is legal and who is not

2:39:51What are what is the what is the city of guelph's role and what are the options the property owner has to manage parking on the property?

2:39:57If they want to have parking enforcement

2:40:01On their property they have to comply

2:40:05Comply being the lines the delineation the okay, that that's clear to me now. Thank you everything we talked about today. Yeah

2:40:15Thank you. Are there any other committee members?

2:40:18Okay, seeing none. Thank you very much. I'm going to call upon miss smith. This is a response to anything

2:40:26And I'm going to stress I invite you to respond to anything that is new that you didn't hear before

2:40:31This is not an opportunity for summation or closing arguments or anything like that

2:40:36Anything new and I'm going to be very strict about that

2:40:42Thank you, madam chair. I I will respond

2:40:52So and I need to go back to first principles to do so

2:40:58The notice of refusal sets the goalpost

2:41:02Goalposts for this quasi judicial

2:41:07Hearing those goalposts only list zoning alleged zoning non-compliance

2:41:18Nothing else

2:41:22It is not appropriate

2:41:26To use these proceedings

2:41:29For the city to share what it shared today within the confines

2:41:36of

2:41:37That refusal we're here to address the refusal

2:41:43So respectfully

2:41:46Everything that's listed in my friend's brief look at her paragraph one

2:41:54There's nothing in the sorry. This is a point of order, please anything new that we have

2:42:01This is not closing arguments. This is not summation

2:42:04This is an opportunity to respond to I didn't hear that before and this is what I have to say

2:42:10Well, I didn't hear that before madam chair if you look at

2:42:13um

2:42:14The items listed in one in paragraph one of my friend's brief

2:42:21The only item out of the business license bylaw that's in the notice of refusal is sub e

2:42:28That's it

2:42:31Sub b isn't in there

2:42:33But that's what we heard about today sub b

2:42:36Sub f isn't in there

2:42:39But that's what we heard about today sub f

2:42:42So I'm responding to the material that's been foot before you outside of your jurisdiction for this hearing

2:42:55They put zoning in issue. I say improperly. You have my submissions on that. This was a mini zoning bylaw trial

2:43:03Which it's not

2:43:06It can't be

2:43:08The only thing my client is going to do

2:43:12Is issue its private property

2:43:16Issue tickets for those who do not have permission from the owner full stop

2:43:23That's the business

2:43:26All this use

2:43:28Delineation I can't count the numbers that's for a zoning trial

2:43:34And that could very well happen and I guarantee you

2:43:38That there will be due diligence defenses. There will be de minimis defenses. That's a whole thing

2:43:45It's not enough to come before this committee and say

2:43:49The ol t says 377 and they only have 300

2:43:54That is not

2:43:56The ground a ground to refuse this license

2:44:01When it's only permitting the business of ticketing

2:44:05Those that don't have permission to be there. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any questions from committee members?

2:44:13Seeing none. Thank you

2:44:14So the committee shall now deliberate in closed session

2:44:18As per section nine subsection one b of the statutory powers procedure act

2:44:25Intimate financial or personal matters or other matters that may be disclosed at the hearing of such a nature having regard to the

2:44:32circumstances that the desirability of avoiding

2:44:36Disclosure thereof in the interest of any person affected or in the public interest outweighs the desirability of its hearing

2:44:44To the principle that hearings be open to the public. There is a recommendation that we move into closed session moved

2:44:52Councillor Richardson second and Councillor Downer anyone opposed?

2:44:56That carries. Thank you. So we are going to go into closed session

2:45:00We will discuss item 6.3 business license appeals committee

2:45:05Complaint parking agent license at the end of our deliberation. We will rise and report out into public. Thank you

3:13:29Thank you everyone again for your patience

3:13:32We have a recommendation that clerks will be putting up

3:13:35onto the

3:13:37screen

3:13:39That the business license appeals committee passed the following recommendation to be referred to the april 21st

3:13:462026 city council meeting that the private parking agent license application

3:13:5125-30

3:13:5289 46 as submitted by applicant

3:13:55Pramila Nepali be refused

3:14:02Yeah, uh, Councillor Gibson. I was just gonna and Councillor Richardson anyone opposed

3:14:08Seeing none that carries. Thank you. Can I have a motion for adjournment?

3:14:12Madam chair, I have a question if I may

3:14:15Councillor Richardson you can ask after the meeting Councillor Richardson seconded Madam chair. I have a question of the committee

3:14:21Councillor Richardson has placed her hand up for the motion for adjournment. You can have a conversation

3:14:28Afterwards and Councillor Richardson move Councillor Downard seconded

3:14:32Anyone opposed?

3:14:38Yeah, you'll get the written response. I'm sure you're familiar with the process. So anyone opposed?

3:14:44That carries. Thank you. So the meetings are

3:14:47Mr. Clerk